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  APEX Express – July 30, 2026 30.07.2026 59мин

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – July 30, 2026 appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 7.16.26 – South Asians and The Labor Justice Movement 16.07.2026 59мин

  APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. This Thursday APEX Express proudly presents “South Asians and The Labor Justice Movement.” This episode highlights Sandhya Jha, a pastor, founder and former Executive Director of the Oakland Peace Center, and racial, housing, and labor justice activist. In the first half of the episode, we discuss Sandhya’s life, their path into organizing, and what they’re up to now. The second half is dedicated to their recent project with the South Asian American Digital Archive’s Archival Creators Fellowship Program. This episode was interviewed, produced, and edited by Swati Rayasam   Follow @Sandhya Jha on Facebook and check out Sandhya’s website https://sandhyajha.com/    APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Listen to the episode live on KPFA 94.1 in San Francisco, 89.3 in Berkeley, and online at KPFA.org.  References throughout the Show and Links: Without Fear Consulting Interfaith Alliance Oakland Peace Center Book – Blueprint for a Revolution Book – The Selected Writings of Eqbal Ahmad Podcast – Bending Toward Justice: Avatar the Last Airbender for the Global Majority The Alliance of South Asians Taking Action – ASATA Bay Area Solidarity Summer South Asian American Digital Archive Archival Creators Fellowship Program Sandhya Jha’s project, you can listen to all of the oral histories here. Solidarity Forever Online Exhibit Arab Resource and Organizing Center Block the Boat No Tech for Apartheid  University of California Labor Center Equality Labs California Trade Justice Coalition NAFCON – National Alliance for Filipino Concerns Filipino Community Center Madhvi Trivedi Patak Transcript ​[00:00:00]  Miata Tan: Hello and welcome! You are tuning in to APEX Express—a weekly radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host, Miata Tan. Tonight we’re revisiting an episode from our archives, first aired January 5th, 2023. We’re bringing it back this week in honor of South Asian American Heritage Month. This one centers Sandhya Jha — a pastor, organizer, and founder of the Oakland Peace Center — in conversation with APEX producer Swati Rayasam. The first half traces Sandhya’s path into organizing, from a labor campaign at Johns Hopkins to two decades of interfaith and racial justice work. The second half digs into Sandhya’s project with the South Asian American Digital Archive, where she spent a year interviewing South Asian workers inside the labor movement — collecting stories that don’t usually make it into the archive. Here’s Swati Rayasam in conversation with Sandhya Jha. [00:01:00] Swati Rayasam: I’m really excited actually today to talk to Sandhya Jha, who is a really close friend of mine. Hi Sandhya. Hi there. Sandhya is, a Pastor is a consultant and has been working on this really amazing project with the South Asian American Digital Archive that will get into later in the episode. But yeah, Sandhya I’m just really excited to learn more about you and to hear more of your story and, let’s just dive in. [00:01:26] Swati Rayasam: Absolutely. [00:01:27] Swati Rayasam: We should first talk a little bit about how we know each other, you have this long organizing background. I’ve been in the Bay Area for the past seven years and I would be totally lying if I said I have not historically been, or I’m not even currently an active fangirl of yours. You are literally a pastor. You are a movement worker, how did you get involved in organizing? [00:01:53] Sandhya Jha: Yeah. So I am the product of my parents who were generous, compassionate [00:02:00] people who thought about the world beyond themselves, but were never involved in organizing or activism or anything like that. I think for anybody who comes from immigrant backgrounds, it’s hard to tell our stories without naming who we come from. Right. And so my father was Sunil Kumar Jha from the village of Tildanga in West Bengal. My mother, who is still alive is Jeanette Campbell Jha. She is from Glasgow. So I come from a mixed religion and mixed race home. My parents chose not to name me Sandhya Campbell Jha not to give me that kind of grounding, but I was called Sandhya Rani Jha, which is a lot to live up to, well, yes, Rani does mean Queen. But it was actually handed down to me, part of the reason they wanted that middle name was it was my aunt’s name, Durga Rani Upadhyay and she was the one who really [00:03:00] brokered my mother’s acceptance into the Indian family and I think that there was something about being accepted on the Indian side of the family and not for many, many years on the Scottish side. That caused my parents and particularly my mother to double down on making sure I knew who I came from and who I came from was my people in the village of Tildanga. [00:03:23] Sandhya Jha: I grew up in Akron, Ohio, so we immigrated to this country when I was a toddler, in the late 1970s, which was a complicated time for Asian immigrants to be in the Midwest because it was a time that the rust belt was rusting and there was a growing sense that we were the reason. But also I grew up alongside folks who were trying to figure out how to put food on the table. So I think that landscape shaped me in a lot of ways. And I also come from people who grew up in poor working communities. And[00:04:00] when I went off to college, there was an organizing campaign. The board of directors of the university had created a for-profit corporation with the exact same board. [00:04:15] Swati Rayasam: Oh wow. [00:04:16] Sandhya Jha: So that the universities could subcontract all of their catering, all of their custodial work to this… basically Shell corporation. [00:04:28] Swati Rayasam: Are we telling on the university? [00:04:29] Sandhya Jha: Mm, Yeah. Why not? It was Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, and I think that’s relevant because the tension between Black communities next to Johns Hopkins Medical School and the school itself were very real because this was part of a very long history of exploiting community members. So the workers were organizing, and you know, I had read about activism, I cared about it. I paid as much attention as I could for a high school student. But when I got to college, this organizing [00:05:00] campaign was going, and the workers were really clear, Hey, college kids who are excited about this, we do have a role for you. It’s to fill the crowd. It’s to cheer us on. It’s to when we ask you communicate to the university that our well-being matters to you because they will listen to you in different ways. But the campaign centered the workers and was really clear with us about what our role was because we were the folks with all the privilege by getting to be there, right? We had tons of privilege and it was a really good lesson for me. I am so grateful. The first organizing campaign I was a part of was a labor campaign that understood what it meant to center the people who were the most impacted by injustice and I think that shaped the rest of my career. [00:05:46] Swati Rayasam: And that’s so special too because I think for many people who come into organizing, and I will definitely cop to this myself, like coming up and organizing through high school and college level organizing. When you are a student, nobody ever [00:06:00] tells you that actually you are the least useful kind of organizer that exists. Right. You are in this incredibly enclaved community. Your oppressor, the university, all they have to do is wait for you to graduate institutional memory will not keep you. Yeah. Right. And I think that it is, it’s this perfect storm of, you have actually sometimes cool ideas, sometimes very rudimentary ideas, but you also have this turnover issue and you have this sense of self import, which often comes with your teens, early twenties. Yep. As you’re just figuring all of that out. So Yeah, self differentiation, right? It’s a narcissistic phase in our development. . [00:06:46] Swati Rayasam: It absolutely is and I think that’s so important, and I can’t imagine how my life would be shaped if I didn’t have to spend a lot of time unlearning the self import and narcissism that I had gained through student [00:07:00] organizing. [00:07:00] Sandhya Jha: Yeah. No, I am really, really grateful for it. [00:07:02] Sandhya Jha: My first job outta college was working for a member of Congress, which sounds super fancy and pretentious, but, a member of congress from Akron, Ohio. So put that all in perspective. His name, believe it or not, was Tom Sawyer. Oh, wow. What I loved about Tom was back in those days, he believed very strongly that 80% of legislation was nonpartisan and that was the part that he spent most of his time on. He would weigh in with his party, when they were dealing with that 20% pretty consistently. But he was more interested in the stuff that everybody could agree on and I remember for about 15 years after I worked for him, I looked back and found myself thinking that was so naive. How did he not understand where we were about to head with the divisions between the political parties? But at this point in my life, I realize the people I respect most in organizing work keep pointing out that the binary of [00:08:00] left and right actually doesn’t serve us very well. One of my biggest heroes in the movement right now is the Reverend Dr. William Barber, [00:08:07] Swati Rayasam: Hometown hero of mine. Yes. [00:08:09] Sandhya Jha: Poor People’s campaign from North Carolina. And he always talks about how it’s not about right and left. It’s about right and wrong. And it turns out that when we engage in organizing with the awareness that there are huge swaths of things that most of us are well served by, we can do better organizing. And that was actually how Tom was legislating. And at a certain point I realized that my deep passion was around racial justice, but the distinct experience I had in a multi religious household was an awareness of how religion was being used as a weapon. I had an obsession. Every paper in college I wrote was about the Christian coalition, this right wing, organizing body in the nineties. So a friend of mine [00:09:00] said, You know, there’s an interfaith organization working against the Christian Coalition. And it was called the Interfaith Alliance. Her mom had been a superintendent in Washington state in eastern Washington and was a pretty conservative person by my standards. [00:09:18] Sandhya Jha: But, Dr. Chow believed in multiculturalism and believed in teaching evolution. And the Christian coalition had organized to push her out of her position as superintendent and the Interfaith Alliance of Washington State had supported her in that time. [00:09:38] Sandhya Jha: And so Liz said, you know, they’ve got a national chapter, a national office. And that’s where I ended up, cutting my adult organizing teeth which was great because talk about learning lessons for our current moment where religion is being weaponized in ways that are anti-trans, that are anti-queer, that are anti-women, that [00:10:00] are anti reproductive rights, that are anti-immigrant and refugee. I am really grateful to have experienced the power of multi-faith organizing, around a lot of those same issues. So that was what I did in the early two thousands and then I went to seminary and public policy school, and then I ended up out here pastoring a congregation of 10 people in a building of 40,000 square feet. [00:10:29] Sandhya Jha: And long story short, that’s how the Oakland Peace Center was born, was out of this dream of cultivating deeper collaboration among nonprofits who were dedicated to a shared cause. The Oakland Peace Center, which is a collective of 40 different nonprofits committed to dismantling the root causes of violence in our community. I was the founder of that organization and it was when I was pastoring First Christian Church of Oakland that I asked the handful of folks who were members of that church, what they wanted to [00:11:00] contribute to the community, and they said they wanted to contribute peace in the midst of violence. And for a dozen folks to have given birth to a space that in non pandemic years, saw over a hundred thousand people do things like the Lawyers for Black Lives Conference and to do Kingian non-violence training and to be a part of food and clothing distribution, to participate in all the very diverse ways that we can create peace is pretty impressive. [00:11:30] Sandhya Jha: And a couple of years ago, I left the Oakland Peace Center because a colleague of mine said, Anybody can run a non-profit. We need you to do what you’re actually good at, and what she meant by that was we need more people of color doing diversity, equity, and inclusion work that is actually grounded in power analysis. That isn’t just how do we be nicer to each other in the workplace, but how do we recognize the ways that systems of white supremacy [00:12:00] unconsciously often shape the culture of our workplaces? And what do we do to dismantle that white supremacy culture so that we can be building nonprofits and institutions of higher education and faith organizations, and even corporations that are dedicated to our full liberation, our liberation, the lands liberation. [00:12:23] Swati Rayasam: I mean coming, especially from the place that you come in grassroots organizing and in faith based organizing, what is it actually to transition into this kind of consulting space around racial justice and really interface with a lot of people that I feel like as organizers, we don’t really talk to? [00:12:42] Sandhya Jha: One of my favorite things about this shift in my work is I love getting to work with folks who don’t think of themselves as organizers, who, it turns out are organizers, Right. I think we sometimes create a cult of here’s what an organizer looks like, you [00:13:00] have to be a Martin Luther King or a Cesar Chavez and what I love is getting to work with moms and with teenagers and with folks who think of themselves as caring, compassionate, individuals, and when I go into an organization and work with their handful of folks who care about this issue, the DEI team, I get to teach them how to strategically organize. I get to teach them how do you create culture shift over time? I get to teach them how do you figure out who your allies are? How do you figure out how to move people who are neutral? It turns out that there are a lot more organizers out there than we realize if we don’t create one definition of what an organizer needs to look like. [00:13:45] Swati Rayasam: I have been reading this political scholar Eqbal Ahmed, who really talks about the way the burden is on those of us who are deeply committed to movement work, narrow definition people, the burden is really on us to try and [00:14:00] create a liberatory future that feels both achievable. Mm-hmm. and safe for everybody. Because when people engage in mass struggle and in revolution, there are people who are a hundred percent willing to put their lives on the line. People who are willing to die for the cause. And we absolutely need those people. And there are many people along the spectrum who, if you can create a future that feels like it’s within their grasp, they will come with you. [00:14:30] Sandhya Jha: Yep. I teach a lot of organizing classes and have gotten a chance to teach alongside my beloved colleague BK Woodson at Allen Temple Baptist Church, they have a leadership institute there. And one of the books we use is Blueprint for a Revolution by Srđa Popović. And I feel like I learned a lot as we read that book together and thought about how to apply it to the work we’re doing in Oakland. They talked about how by engaging in nonviolent direct action, [00:15:00] they created space for elders to be a part of their work and youth to be a part of their work and families to be a part of their work. By making the movement playful. They gave people hope and gave people courage because dictators are terrified of being mocked. [00:15:17] Swati Rayasam: Yeah, exactly. And I think by being really restrictive or narrow about who we view as actually valuable organizers. And I think labor movements teach us this a lot, right? We really cut ourselves off at the knees on our ability to build a network or to be in touch with the general population, many of whom are more connected than we ever give them credit for. [00:15:41] Sandhya Jha: Yeah. Yep. it’s part of why I love labor organizing. I talk with a lot of people who are disenchanted with organizing who ask me how I can have stayed involved for the past 25 years. And why I’ve been able to stay in it is cuz I’m organizing alongside workers and they have [00:16:00] full lives. And the work that they’re doing in the movement is so that they can live their full lives. And there’s something about having that perspective and recognizing the why all the time instead of getting lost in the weeds of the what. Is so important in this work. I think that has been a big theme of my organizing life is how do we build to the greatest common denominator? As my friend BK often says how do we build towards those shared values that often get erased when we are engaged in the right versus left debate. [00:16:39] Swati Rayasam: Yeah. I think that it is so important and I also think that it’s really hard in this moment of what feels like constant trauma and re trauma. [00:16:51] Swati Rayasam: And to some extent especially when we’re talking about the left right dichotomy there are real concerns [00:17:00] about safety. Yep. And there are real concerns about security and who you are in community with and who you can find even the smallest level of acceptance from to ensure that you won’t have violence visited upon you. And I think that these conversations of united front organizing, Right. trying to bridge across difference mm-hmm. for a shared goal, for a shared liberatory future Yep. Are really important. And they feel kind of impossible to achieve right now. [00:17:31] Sandhya Jha: It’s interesting cuz I think that in many ways that is true. There are a lot of conversations that I think people with privilege expect, people who are marginalized to engage in. And those expectations are unfair, what I found very frustrating was the number of people with a lot of privilege who would be like, Ugh, I just can’t talk to those people. And I’m like, Then who’s going to? Exactly. and so I do think that some of this is about being willing to have [00:18:00] hard conversations in the places where we have privilege and recognizing who’s at actual risk and showing up in ways that are protective of who is at risk. But that doesn’t mean walking away from people who aren’t where we are. Right. Because the fact of the matter is everybody’s on a journey. And I have watched at the same time some of the disposability culture in movements write off people without giving them any way to address harm, repair harm, and find a pathway back into community. [00:18:41] Swati Rayasam: Yeah. And I think that’s why, at least I am feeling really hopeful about, what I’ve seen over the past couple of years, this really important track into transformative justice and restorative justice, to acknowledge that there is harm that has happened, there are harms that happen every day between people. [00:19:00] And also we are all on our own journey to unlearn the things that we have been taught either directly or indirectly by our upbringing, by our environment and that you cannot easily dispose of people and that people are able to come back into community. Now that comes with a very important caveat that like they recognize the harm. Mm-hmm. that. They have done or how they’ve been party to it, that they acknowledge that there is healing work that needs to be done both with the person that they harmed and also probably in internally. [00:19:35] Sandhya Jha: Well, and the community, folks who don’t do RJ on a regular basis tend to skip the community aspect. Yeah. That there is actually repair that needs to be done with community and there’s work community needs to do to figure out how to re-embrace reabsorb people who have done harm in ways that still protect the person who’s been harmed. [00:19:55] Swati Rayasam: Exactly. In ways that do not erase the harm that has happened, but [00:20:00] acknowledge, contextualize it and say, Okay, we are patching this and we are working to move forward in step with each other. Absolutely. [00:20:09] Sandhya Jha: Can I just say that one of the other things that I think you and I have in common is a real passion for bringing joy back into the work of Justice I quote Fabiana Rodriguez a lot on this particular thing, because I was at an event she was doing eons ago, and she looked out at us and most of us were activists and she said, Listen, y ‘all you keep inviting people to a struggle. I’m on your side and I don’t wanna join a struggle. I want to join a party. And that was like a call to arms for me when I heard her say that. I was like, Oh my gosh, you’re right. We are so much more fun. Like, I’ve hung out with people who are anti-trans and anti queer and anti-immigrant and anti refugee. They are not fun people. No, no. We have all of the best parties. So I don’t know why we don’t [00:21:00] capitalize on that more. So I think the role of joy and justice is so important. And this is why I was so excited to have you on the podcast that I launched recently. [00:21:11] Sandhya Jha: Right. Bending Towards Justice Avatar the last Airbender for the Global Majority. [00:21:15] Swati Rayasam: So literally like bringing it together. Two of my favorite things right, is like TV shows, wholesome TV shows like Avatar, The Last Airbender that I deeply love and organizing. Yes. All the work that I love. And I think it’s true You know, what is actually really the important work is to work to build toward a future that is desirable Yep. That people want to be a part of. Yeah. That people can see happen. Yeah. And I think that is a lot of the difficulty that I have seen in some organizing circles. We are so well versed in what we are against and all of the things that are bad that so many people have a really hard time seeing or visioning or communicating [00:22:00] what it is that we are fighting for. Yeah. Right. And it’s not enough to say, I’m fighting for a world where we can all be safe. Right. Yeah. I’m not, I’m fighting for a world where we can all take long naps in the middle of the day if we’d like to do that. Right. Yeah. But like really building and visioning that future of like, in this world in which we are all safe, there will be harm that happens. How do we deal with that? Yeah. What do we do with that? How do we make sure that it is able to keep everybody safe and also able to account for the times in which it is not able to keep everybody safe. [00:22:38] Sandhya Jha: Visionary does not have to mean naive. And we need it to be visionary. And sometimes I forget to do the visionary stuff. I’ve got a colleague, Dave Bell, he’s a farmer who is also an anti-racism trainer and we do a lot of work together. He’s a white guy who lives in White Swan, Washington, on the reservation and I remember being at a training with him and I [00:23:00] was all fired up and I was so excited about the conversations we were having and the people were really ready to do the hard work and roll up their sleeves. And Dave says to them, I would like to not have to do this work. And I’m like, What is he talking about? This is amazing. We’re doing such good work. And he says, I would like for us not to have to talk about racism all the time. I would rather be farming. I would rather be, taking care of the cows in my field. [00:23:26] Sandhya Jha: I would rather be talking about my pottery work that I’m doing badly but learning how to do, I would rather be doing anything than have this conversation. But I don’t get to be on the farm with the wheat, with the cows, with my bad pottery until we figured out how to do this anti-racism work. And it was a really humbling moment for me because I also get into that like I’m an organizer, that’s my identity space. And it was this reminder of Dave’s doing this. So he gets to live in a world where he gets to hang out in the fields and he [00:24:00] gets to, love on the cows. There’s something about being reminded that we’re doing this so that eventually we don’t have to do it. That I think is actually visionary in its own way and it’s important. [00:24:12] Swati Rayasam: Moving into a little bit more of the grit of like why I asked you to be on the show today. I met you originally when I moved to the Bay Area when you were the executive director of the Oakland Peace Center because At that time I was doing organizing work with the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, which is a 20 year old bay area based organization, that was really founded around the Laki Reddy Bali Reddy sex trafficking. Yep. Caste and labor exploitation case that happened in Berkeley in 1999. And I was just so thrilled to be around and have in community so many rad desis. And you also did work with ASATA, right. Historically and are actively doing work with us. [00:24:56] Sandhya Jha: Absolutely. One of the places I think I invested the most [00:25:00] energy in where we got to spend a lot of quality time in the kitchen was one of the projects, Bay Area Solidarity Summer, an organizing institute, camp, however you wanna refer to it. [00:25:10] Swati Rayasam: Political education, Summer camp. [00:25:12] Swati Rayasam: Yeah, exactly. For young South Asian Americans who are committed to activism. What I think was the most beautiful part of that program when I was involved in it, and it’s still the case today, is for young South Asians who think that they’re the only ones who care about justice issues, who haven’t met other people, who are South Asian, and identify as justice seekers first to meet each other and realize that there are people just like them. Then to look around and realize that those of us who are usually 10, 15, 20 years older than them are also committed to the work and have been doing it for decades. And then for them to get exposed to the long history of radical visionary organizing and activism of South [00:26:00] Asians here in the US and also in the homelands of India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, and diasporic countries all over the world. [00:26:13] Sandhya Jha: There’s something about realizing, Oh, you have contemporaries, oh, you have elders, oh, you have ancestors. Mm-hmm. Especially in the face of the model minority lie that so many of us have had imposed on us, this lie that all we are all we’re supposed to be is cogs in this larger capitalist machine that are non disruptive, which is why we’re allowed to survive. And if we are non disruptive enough, we might even be able to be comfortable. And to discover that there’s more to our story than that is so exciting and I love, love, love being a part of that. [00:26:52] Swati Rayasam: Yeah. I think that is like fundamentally one of the most important kind of activities that [00:27:00] happens in the ASATA universe, I was a kid who also grew up thinking that there were no other South Asians like me, or there were no other folks who were interested in justice. I spent a lot of time doing, reproductive and queer justice in the south; I always think about what would it have meant if I came in, BASS for 18 to 24 year olds. Yep. what would it have meant if I had come in at a fresh 18 and been able to basically be apprised of the fact that I have this history Yeah. That it’s not just me. And that actually, immigration and white supremacy and neo-colonial culture has created this project of assimilation that all of our parents have been in on, in a way to survive Yeah. And to be safe. And I tell my, I tell my mom that a lot because she’s always a little surprised about the organizing work that I do. And I was just like, Your job was to survive. My job is to liberate. Yeah. [00:28:00] You know? Yeah. And I could not do that if you were not so focused on creating that environment for me. [00:28:07] Swati Rayasam: I love that. [00:28:07] Swati Rayasam: we’ll drop in the show notes, but, BASS – Bay Area Solidarity Summer is solidaritysummer.org. So we’ll put that in the show notes as well as ASATA, the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action is ASATA.org. And yeah, I think that is a really good segue into how we got involved in this amazing project. [00:28:31] Swati Rayasam: You’re tuned in to APEX express at 94.1 KPFA and 89.3, KPFB in Berkeley. And online@kpfa.org. [00:28:43] Swati Rayasam: I think it was Fall 2021 that you and I were talking. Yep. And you were telling me that you were involved in this amazing archival fellowship project. Is run by the South Asian American Digital Archive and [00:29:00] that you were going to do your project about labor. Mm-hmm. and South Asians. Yep. And my immediate, incredibly naive response was, how many South Asians are there in labor? [00:29:12] Sandhya Jha: Exactly. And it’s not naive. It’s interesting cuz I think that this project actually emerged out of my favorite part of BASS, which was when the young adults would ask what their opportunities were in the world of justice. And I would say, you know, there’s a place for us in labor justice. It had never crossed most of their minds. Right. We don’t think of ourselves as having a role especially in formalized unions. And so SAADA, the South Asian American Digital Archives has an archival fellows project. And the whole purpose of it is to diversify their archives and collect the stories that are usually overlooked in the telling of South Asian American stories. [00:29:56] Sandhya Jha: And they have done a great job over the years of collecting the [00:30:00] stories of informal organizing, like the Punjabi Taxi Drivers campaign, the Bangladeshi Nail Workers Campaign. Those were informal labor organizing campaigns. That have been really well archived and they’re amazing stories. I wanted to make sure that the next generation of South Asian activists knew about the South Asians who were actually part of the formal organized labor movement. [00:30:30] Sandhya Jha: And so I spent this past year interviewing, maybe a half a dozen or so South Asian American workers. Generally, not always, but mostly what would be classified as low wage workers who found a pathway into formal organizing bodies, unite here or the building trades or any number of the formal unions that keep [00:31:00] the labor movement alive across the country today. And I’m really proud of the fact that we do have South Asian workers who have moved up the ranks to be official organizers or to be at negotiating tables. And so that’s part of the story I thought it was worth us telling. [00:31:19] Swati Rayasam: And I am, I’m so excited that we get to dive deeper into this project and I really love your framing too, around the three large bins that you have, solidarity, spirit and struggle. [00:31:34] Swati Rayasam: Right? Yeah. Yeah. [00:31:35] Sandhya Jha: I started out with certain assumptions about what I was going to learn, partly because I’ve been doing labor solidarity work for 25 years at this point. I really thought I knew what I was gonna hear. And what I discovered was there were these consistent themes across, the interviews. that there were these notions of, Oh, what’s meaningful to me is [00:32:00] getting to organize across cultures, getting to organize with people who, on the surface and even deep down are very different than me, but we share this vision of what our lives can be. And so that solidarity message I found really powerful. Also, and admittedly because I come out of a spiritual background, was probably looking for it. I was really struck by how many of the interviews ended up talking about the role of spirituality and shaping people’s values. And in a couple of instances, organizers said, what my religion taught me was that religion needs to be challenged. And building up that muscle was what helped me challenge systems of injustice in other places. But others said that their journey with their faith tradition was what guided them into the work of labor organizing. [00:32:52] Sandhya Jha: And then that third bucket of struggle, I think is the lived experience of how [00:33:00] hard it is to take on oppressive systems of capitalism, how hard it is to take on decks that are stacked against us and what it means to have somewhere to turn in the midst of those struggles. I will say there were also a couple of lessons I was surprised by because my South Asian identity is so central to my organizing work, I was expecting to collect stories of people who were proud South Asians, who were also proud to be involved in the labor movement. And I assumed that they would see connections between those things because I certainly do. But what I discovered is for the most part, they were like, Yeah, I’m South Asian. I’m not saying that doesn’t matter, but it’s not super relevant to my organizing work. My organizing work is about [00:34:00] our cross-cultural solidarity. And that was something I hadn’t been expecting that emerged as I did those interviews. Interesting. And I’m really grateful that the South Asian American Digital Archives likes telling all of the stories because I think I promised them that what they were going to get was, we’re proud to be South Asian organizers. And what I got was, yeah, we’re South Asian, we’re proud to be organizers. And the that SAADA is like, yeah, that’s part of our story too. [00:34:28] Swati Rayasam: Yeah. And I think that’s, that I think is incredibly important. We have this really, amazing series of audio clips from your SAADA interviews that really represent a lot of the themes that you were highlighting about solidarity, spirit, and struggle. And I’m just really excited to play them as we talk through these larger themes in your larger project and the experience of South Asian labor organizers. [00:34:55] Swati Rayasam: This clip is from somebody that you and I both know, which [00:35:00] is Prem Pariyar. I was so thrilled that Prem was a part of your project. I think Prem is an incredible organizer, so yeah tell our listeners a little bit about Prem. Prem [00:35:09] Sandhya Jha: It was pretty exciting to get to work with him you know, he moved here from Nepal and in Nepal he had been a Dalit activist and he came to the United States and had this notion that in the United States there is no caste and he was disabused of that notion very quickly as a restaurant worker dealing with anti Nepali bias in Indian restaurants, dealing with caste bias in Nepali restaurants, well dealing with Caste bias in all the restaurants. [00:35:35] Swati Rayasam: Hey, everyone, Narrator Swati here, I just wanted to put in an explanatory comma, a la W Kamau Bell and Hari Kondabolu to talk about some terms you just heard. Sandhya referenced that Prem was a Dalit activist and also talked about Caste bias. For those of you who don’t know, Caste is a violent system of oppression and exclusion, which governs social status in many south Asian countries, although it is [00:36:00] most commonly associated with India. It works on an axis of purity and pollution, and it’s hereditary. At the top of the caste system are Brahmins, by the way Sandhya and I are both Brahmin, and not even at the bottom, but completely outside of the system are Dalits who were previously referred to by the slur untouchable and Adivasis who are indigenous to South Asia. [00:36:25] Swati Rayasam: Despite being “illegal” Caste bias, Caste Oppression, Caste apartheid, are still prevalent, both in South Asia and as Sandhya references, in the United States. It manifests in many ways that people experience racial injustice, via socioeconomic inequality, systemic and interpersonal violence, occupation, and through the determination of marriage and other relationships. You can learn more at EqualityLabs.org and APEX currently has a show in the works that delves into this more deeply. Now. Back to Sandhya [00:36:58] Sandhya Jha: What is [00:37:00] delightful to me is Prem went on to get an MSW and is building out amazing mental health resources for Dalit communities for the Nepali community. Seeking to build out a program where there are more and more people in Nepal who are trained with MSW skills. [00:37:21] Sandhya Jha: I met with one of his professors from CSU East Bay where he got his degree and she said, You know, that the entire Cal State system is adding caste to its anti-discrimination policies thanks to the work he started at CSU East Bay. And it was really beautiful to hear that because the focus of my conversations with him were more around how his experiences in the restaurants led him into the solidarity work with nail salon workers. [00:37:53] Swati Rayasam: To just, kick back to the caste abolition work that Prem has been doing, that caste abolition work [00:38:00] at CSU East Bay has been such critical work in these ongoing conversations around caste that have been in the South Asian community primarily, but have been percolating elsewhere. [00:38:13] Swati Rayasam: You know, the state of California filed a lawsuit against Cisco systems Yep. For caste discrimination in their workplace and there have been all these conversations around caste and tech work and interplay that with the no tech for apartheid work. Right. That has been happening in Palestinian liberation circles. Yeah. And really building that solidarity movement. So I think that Prem is an absolute powerhouse Yeah. In that regard. But yeah, let’s listen to this clip. [00:38:42] Prem: During that time, I got connected with other community organizer, like workers group. I got connected and so I was connected with nail salon workers, who were exploited at their workplace and with them, [00:39:00] I got to go to the capital in Sacramento. And so I thought I need to advocate for the restaurant workers. that was my first experience, like working with other workers and with the assembly members and like other other policy makers I shared what is happening what kinds of discrimination happening at the workplace. So I advocated for the restaurant workers at that time. I shared my stories and I supported the rights of nail salon workers. I was there to support them and they supported me as well, and it was wonderful. And finally that advocacy worked. And the bill was drafted and it was passed finally. And so it was huge achievement at that time. [00:39:49] Swati Rayasam: I love that. I think that is such a perfect story of when you win, we all win. [00:39:56] Sandhya Jha: And what I also love about it is he goes on [00:40:00] to talk about how he has remained in relationship with those nail salon workers. That they show up for each other, that they take each other food, that they show up to each other’s baby showers and birthday parties, and there’s this sense of community that emerges out of this shared struggle. And so that’s a cross-cultural campaign. They were mostly Vietnamese. There were some Bangladeshi nail salon workers, but it was mostly people from a different culture than his. [00:40:27] Sandhya Jha: But somebody at the Asian Health Services program that he was at, saw his gifts, saw his passion, and he really responded to that in exactly, the most powerful way. I can imagine. [00:40:38] Swati Rayasam: And I think one of the nice things as well about that is that person at Asian Health Services connected Prem in and the Nail Salon Worker group, California Healthy Nail Salon Collaborative, Prem came from Nepal, I’m not sure, but the extent to which his organizing background and how comfortable he was in the US organizing space around labor [00:41:00] issues was probably significantly less that worker group took it upon themselves when they saw Prem come in to say, Oh, you are advocating on behalf of restaurant workers. Great. Why don’t you join us? Let’s help support and so the nail salon workers saw Prem, saw solidarity with Prem and said, It is our responsibility mm-hmm to bring you into this space to connect you in and to move in, struggle together. Yeah. Toward our shared goals of safety, of health, of rights. Yep. [00:41:35] Sandhya Jha: Exactly. [00:41:36] Swati Rayasam: So, we have this clip from Daljit, tell me a little bit about Daljit. Daljit [00:41:42] Sandhya Jha: Yeah. Daljit was an attorney who now reads tarot for people because she needed a break from the toxicity of that career and how it was taking her away from her family. Daljit is a deeply spiritual person and, [00:42:00] as I mentioned before, this theme of spirit showed up in some really beautiful ways in some of the interviews. I loved the way she understood her Sikh tradition as foundationally being connected with the land and foundationally connected with the people who work the land. [00:42:15] Daljit: Agriculture is our culture and the religion that I was born into, Siki, the founder of that faith was a farmer. And so a lot of the scripture, the analogies, the metaphors, the poetry, the music, the songs, the boon, the traditional folk songs, that can be taunting and teasing banter, all that stuff the land is the framework for that. And my most favorite line from the Guru Granth Sahib, our holy book, is, [speaks Punjabi] and that basically means that, the waters our guru, the airs our father, but our mother is Earth. And that’s the greatest of all , and that’s adherence to ecosystem. That’s the [00:43:00] indigenous Cosmo vision that should be paramount. And that’s what I try to teach my children. And so I think that’s what I was taught as a kid without necessarily being able to pinpoint it, but it was just infused throughout our songs, our music, our food, the Harvest, there’s two times a year that our celebrations, whether it Baisakhi or Lohri. It’s so connected to the harvest and what is coming out of the soil or not. And you’re connected to the cycles of nature. [00:43:28] Swati Rayasam: The connection between nature land, spirituality the way that it shows up in so many faith backgrounds and so many faith organizers, I think is really, really beautiful. [00:43:41] Sandhya Jha: And I love that Daljit Kaursoni who was raised in this tradition, has found her way to Buddhism and is raising her kids with those connections, but without ever losing this grounding in the liberation of the land, the liberation of the [00:44:00] people. [00:44:00] Sandhya Jha: And for that to be a key element of her spirituality, even as her spirituality evolves, I think it’s pretty powerful. Tafadar [00:44:08] Sandhya Jha: One of the other people I got to interview ,Tafadar, he’s a Bangladeshi American in the building trades and is a deeply committed Marxist. For me, this was a particularly exciting interview because I’m Bengali, so from West Bengal, before partition, Bangladesh and what’s now West Bengal, were one state. And so it was fun to get to talk with him and to say, Hey, this is our legacy as Bengalis is radical worker organizing. [00:44:40] Sandhya Jha: And I remember saying to him, Some people in the building trades are not super excited to be working with brown people. And some people in the building trades are a little biased against women. And as a very, very progressive South Asian? How do you navigate that [00:45:00] space? [00:45:00] Sandhya Jha: And he said, Here’s the thing is, yeah, I organize alongside some moderate to conservative white folks from New Jersey and he said, but in the building trades, if that moderate to conservative white guy from New Jersey decides he doesn’t like my feminist politics, or he doesn’t like my brown skin, if he decides that’s a reason not to train me, he might die. And it was really interesting because even though I’ve been doing labor justice work for a long time, it was one of those moments I was like, Oh, right. Your work is very dangerous and you all have to rely on each other whether you like each other or not. That is the magic of organizing that no one ever talks about. This is why we can do cross class, cross-cultural work because literally you have to trust each other with your lives. Right. That was a really clarifying moment for me. And it was one of those interesting moments where I was like, [00:46:00] Solidarity is not a romantic thing. Uh, it is very much a matter of life and death. [00:46:05] Sandhya Jha: And I think that is really important and that exact thing that you brought up, you don’t even have to necessarily trust somebody. Right. But you do need them. Yep. Right. And like that really clear understanding that like your fates are intertwined and it is truly in everybody’s best interest. If you are trained well, irrespective of whether or not at lunch, I’m interested in sitting anywhere near you. I think that’s really great. [00:46:32] Sandhya Jha: One of the things that was really exciting about talking with Tafadar was the reminder that labor organizing and formal union organizing at its best can be in solidarity with other movements really worker justice and housing justice and racial justice are inseparable, on some level. And so, one of the most inspiring stories I got to hear across all of these interviews [00:47:00] was a campaign that brought together folks across the anti- gentrification, the immigrant rights, and the labor justice movement. [00:47:14] Tafadar: It’s ironic, building affordable housing with deadly exploitation. And, um, to do this, the de blassio administration, they embark on massive major rezonings of poor areas to relax the local zoning laws to be able to bring in these developments. And a couple of years ago, my, my union in local 79’s. Took a very sharp turn towards a community organizing approach because labor can’t win on our own, and that’s the perspective that all of labor should adopt. In order to fight against the sweatshops in our industry. We united with a lot of community organizations in the South Bronx. [00:47:53] Tafadar: We formed the South Bronx, Safe Southern Boulevard Coalition. And along with these groups, we [00:48:00] protested and did a whole lot of activism, lobbying, community organizing to stop the rezoning of Southern Boulevard, which is a massive stretch in the South Bronx, while the De Blassio administration had succeeded in another part of the Bronx where there’s like massive displacement still underway right now. And we were determined to stop it there. And it was a beautiful thing that we can unite because on our end as labor, we had to prevent all these trash companies from coming in and exploiting workers. And we were working with these tenants who are afraid of being displaced. And people generally, we do need revitalization of our neighborhoods. We do need investment. We do need things to be changed and made better. For us. If it’s not for us, if it’s done without us, then eventually we’re not even gonna be here anymore. So we had that alliance going on and not only did we manage to stop that rezoning, we also educated the local city councilman on why his position was wrong and supporting the rezoning. And he eventually completely flipped this [00:49:00] position. And now chairs the land use committee of the city council from the perspective that we educated him on, which it’s just been a very interesting dynamic. But, there’s a lot of rezoning battles all over the city that’s like the main front of anti gentrification struggles. And I’ve been watching those kinds of campaigns go on since I began organizing about 15, 16. I’ve seen very different approaches to them, but I’ve never seen any model really work until that one kicked in where Labor and the community came together. So that was one of my favorite campaigns because of that lesson that we were able to concretely put into practice and set as an example for not only for community movements all over New York City, but also for Labor. [00:49:43] Sandhya Jha: I think this hit me in particular because I’ve done so much work around antis displacement in Oakland, and my experience has been. [00:49:53] Sandhya Jha: That while for most of us on the ground, the connection between housing justice and labor justice is really clear. When you [00:50:00] start getting into the technical policy issues and the funding issues, the folks who are running labor and housing justice or affordable housing, struggle to find ways to collaborate. And it’s been one of my consistent heartbreaks for at least a decade at this point because I work at the intersection of those things and sometimes I despair of us being able to find ways to move forward together. And so to hear a story like this one and to be reminded at core, those justice issues can and must be we already knew, must be, but actually can function together to build a better community. That was actually really life giving for me to hear. [00:50:45] Swati Rayasam: Yeah. I a hundred percent agree. And I think the point that Tafadar as well brings in the clip of just saying we knew that we could do this, but we knew we couldn’t do this without community organizing. Right? Yeah. That labor couldn’t do this alone. Yeah. [00:51:00] And I think that is a lot of what, when we talk about solidarity politics, it’s not just a backdoor way of inclusion for inclusion’s sake, we have to all do this. Actually, it is integral that all of us are involved in any of these campaigns because it impacts all of us. And because we are not going to win with only a single constituency and in the very same way that, Tafadar was identifying that labor couldn’t do that alone. in community organizing spaces that you and I have been in mm-hmm. , like we are constantly talking about how we cannot do any of this without labor. Yep. And I think a beautiful example of that is the Block the Boat campaign yeah that the Arab Resource Organizing Center, started back in 2014 and then again during 2021 to block the Zim ship from the port of Oakland. And like this community organization [00:52:00] AROC could not do that without working with the longshoreman to collaborate with the port workers. And I think that when we see the marriage of community organizing and labor organizing, that is when we get the power of grassroots organizing. [00:52:16] Sandhya Jha: Something I wanna mention about the SAADA Fellowship that I was really grateful for: two things. First off, they did a really good job of making sure we got trained in grassroots oral history. So they took really seriously what it meant for this to be justice work. And they made sure we had exposure to methodology that was gonna lift up and honor and foster the voices of people whose stories don’t get heard often enough. And that was a really big deal to me. The other thing is they made sure that we had an advisory board, people who are in this [00:53:00] work who could help us, figure out who to talk with, who could help us build out an event strategy. And you helped me build out my advisory committee. Anibel Ferris-Comelo who is with the University of California Labor Center, [00:53:14] Swati Rayasam: Prem Pariyar, a Nepali Dalit restaurant worker, organizer pushing for Caste as a protected category with Equality Labs, a Dalit feminist organization, and a social worker supporting the mental health needs of his and many other South Asian communities in Alameda county. [00:53:31] Swati Rayasam: Will Jamil Wiltchko with the California Trade Justice Coalition, Terry Valen who I did a lot of organizing with at the beginning of the pandemic, around the struggles that seafarers were facing with the onset of COVID-19. And he’s the organizational director of the Filipino Community Center in San Francisco. The president of NAFCON which is the National Alliance for Filipino Concerns and just an all in all amazing organizer [00:53:57] Sandhya Jha: the last thing I wanna mention [00:54:00] is SAADA also helped me set up a digital exhibit with Art by Madhvi Trivedi Patak and I wanted to give them a shoutout because they’re an incredible artist, but also they grew up in a working class family and didn’t get exposed to what it looks like to do labor justice. And so as they developed the artwork to go with the digital exhibit, they got to experience the possibilities of labor solidarity that they hadn’t gotten to experience as a child. And so I really loved that Madhvi was a part of this project as well [00:54:38] Swati Rayasam: All of the clips that you shared really identifying, again, these like huge fundamental pillars of solidarity and spirit and struggle. these clips were amazing. They are so rich and so layered with all of these people’s varying and different experiences. Really showing in [00:55:00] all of these different walks of life at all of these ages with all of these experiences, that all of these people have this unified and shared identity in struggle, in spirit, and in solidarity for liberation. [00:55:14] Sandhya Jha: And one of the things that I think is worth celebrating is whether they see it as part of their South Asian identity or not. People who do identify as South Asian now have this resource that says there’s a home for you in the labor movement. Yes, there are. There is a value to your voice. There is a value to your wisdom, there’s a value to your experience in the labor movement. [00:55:36] Swati Rayasam: I think it’s a beautiful project. Sandhya, I think it has been an amazing amount of work I’ve watched you do over the past year. These stories are so wonderful. I really encourage people to check it out. Where can they find your project? [00:55:49] Sandhya Jha: The website’s www.saada.org/acfp [00:56:00] /exhibit/solidarity-forever. We’ll put that in the notes. We’ll definitely put that in the show notes. [00:56:05] Swati Rayasam: I just wanna make sure that we replug your podcast Bending Toward Justice Avatar, The Last Air Bender for the Global Majority and you can find that at tinyurl.com slash ATLA podcast, Capital P (tinyurl.com/ATLAPodcast). And then the last thing that I also wanna make sure that we plug is Without Fear Consulting. [00:56:27] Sandhya Jha: I love working with folks who know that their organization could be a little more liberative, and are, just not quite sure where to start. I love working with a team of folks who want to be about the work of incorporating diversity, equity, and inclusion into the DNA of their organization and I love setting them up so that they can keep doing that long after I’m working with them. So please do find me withoutfearconsulting.com. If you’re interested in that. [00:56:58] Swati Rayasam: Amazing. Sandhya [00:57:00] Jha, Pastor, Racial Justice consultant, podcast host, archivist, singer songwriter, amazing cook. You can do it all. I think you deserve a nap. it has been amazing talking to you. I am so glad to be able to hear about your project and also to hear a lot more about your life. [00:57:23] Sandhya Jha: Yay. Thank you so much. [00:57:25] Miata Tan: That was Swati Rayasam in conversation with Sandhya Jha. As Swati mentioned, you can learn more about her work in the show notes at kpfa.org/program/apex-express. Speaking of Swati — she’s currently working on an episode marking the 25th anniversary of 9/11, out in early September. It’ll cover the work of the South Asian Coalition, a national network of organizations working together on South Asian American movement building. Keep an eye out for that one. This episode originally aired January 5th, 2023 — we’re re-airing it this week in honor of South Asian American Heritage Month. This is APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, airing every Thursday evening at 7pm. Thank you for tuning in tonight. APEX Express is a proud member of Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality. A network focused on long-term movement building, capacity infrastructure, and leadership support for Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders committed to social justice. Learn more at AACRE.org This program produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s episode was produced by Swati Rayasam. Get some rest y’all. The post APEX Express – 7.16.26 – South Asians and The Labor Justice Movement appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 7.9.26 – Connie Wun & Think Twice 09.07.2026 41мин

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Host Miko Lee speaks with Dr. Connie Wun and we get to hear her new podcast Think Twice. The post APEX Express – 7.9.26 – Connie Wun & Think Twice appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 7.2.26 – International Youth Movements 02.07.2026 59мин

  APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. Over the past few years, a series of popular uprisings across the world have been described by mainstream media as “Gen-Z Uprisings” – movements led by young people and described in western media as generally being against government corruption. These movements have been most notably visible in our own media due to their use of technology, including platforms like Discord and TikTok, and internationally consistent adoption of pop culture symbolism, like the flag of the “straw hat pirates,” a black flag depicting a grinning jolly roger wearing a straw hat. The flag is the banner of the protagonists of the long-running hit anime series One Piece whose adventures often find them coming to the defense of marginalized communities around their world. But these movements didn’t come out of nowhere (or the internet for that matter). Understanding their origins – and the elections that have resulted from their successes – can shed light both onto the international struggle against authoritarianism and the challenges we face building an alternative. In this episode we are looking at two countries, Nepal and Bangladesh, where popular uprisings in the summer of 2024 and fall of 2025 have led to elections this year. In this episode, we are joined by two US based organizers, Sharmin Hossain and Samir Shrestha, whose work as part of South Asian diasporas has rooted them in movement work here in the US while maintaining relationships and solidarity abroad. Sharmin Hossain is a Bangladeshi Muslim organizer from Queens, New York, who is currently the Organizing Director for 18 Million Rising. To learn more about 18 Million Rising, check out their site at www.18millionrising.org. Follow Sharmin on all platforms at @sharminultra Samir Shrestha belongs to the indigenous Newari tribe of Nepal, where he was born. He has spent the last 18 years involved in movement work here in the US. To learn more about The Ruckus Society and request a training, visit: www.ruckus.org/training-action-support/training-requests/ To learn more about Convergence Magazine and the Block and Build Podcast, follow them at @_convergencemag and @blockandbuildpod. Check out Covergence’s work at www.convergencemag.com. Transcript Swati Rayasam: [00:00:00] welcome fellow travelers to Apex Express. It’s been a minute, but in case you don’t remember, my name is Swati Rayasam, and I’m gonna be your conductor tonight. I have been very excited about this week’s episode for a few months because tonight Apex is featuring Convergence Magazine’s Block and Build podcast. Block and Build is creating a roadmap for the movement that’s working to block the impacts of [00:01:00] rising authoritarianism while building the strength and resilience of the broad front that we need to win. And both the team at Convergence and the guests for tonight’s show are close comrades and friends of Apex. On this episode, Cayden Mak, podcast host and editor-in-chief of Convergence, is joined by Samir Shrestha and Sharmin Hossain, two US-based organizers from the South Asian diaspora, Nepal and Bangladesh respectively. Sharmin and Samir will talk about the history and continued struggles of the international Gen Z uprisings, which have only really made a blip in Western media coverage. They’ll discuss the history of those movements and the political conditions which created them, as well as help us understand how Americans can be in meaningful solidarity with people’s movements abroad. Without further ado, I’ll hand it over to Cayden. Cayden: Over the past few years, a series of popular uprisings across the world have been described by mainstream media as the Gen Z uprisings, movements led by young people and described in Western media as [00:02:00] generally being against government corruption. These movements have been most notably visible in our own media due to their use of technology, including platforms like Discord and TikTok, and internationally consistent adoption of pop culture symbolism. but these movements didn’t come out of nowhere, or out of just the internet, for that matter. Understanding their origins and the elections that have resulted from their successes can shed light both onto the international struggle against authoritarianism and the challenges that we face building an alternative. In this episode, we’re looking at two countries in particular, Nepal and Bangladesh, where popular uprisings in the summer of 2024 and fall of 2025 have led to elections this year. I was recently joined by two US-based organizers, Sharmin Hossain and Samir Shrestha, whose work as part of the South Asian diaspora has rooted them in movement work here in the US while maintaining relationships and solidarity abroad. Sharmin Hossain is a Bangladeshi Muslim organizer from Queens, New York, who’s currently the organizing director for 18 Million Rising. Sharmin, thanks so much for joining us today  Sharmin: Thank you for having me. I love Convergence.  Cayden: Thank you. [00:03:00] And, Samir Shrestha belongs to the indigenous Newari tribe of Nepal, where he was born. He spent the past 18 years involved in movement work here in the US, and Samir, it’s really good to see you this morning.  Samir: So good to see you too, Cayden.  Cayden: Well, to start us off, let’s try and set some context Sharmin. I’m wondering if you can give us kind of a quick gloss of the 2024 uprisings in Bangladesh, where Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina and her party were ousted from power. What are the sort of themes of the protests, and then the way that the state responded, and where are we kind of now? Sharmin: Wow, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. It’s an honor to talk about my country and all the amazing things that happened, because I think the Global South really forges, like, new possibilities as far as, like, what we can do and, and consolidate as far as power goes. So today is actually March 26th, and it’s Bangladeshi Independence Day, coincidentally. Cayden: Happy independence Day.  Sharmin: Happy Independence Day. I find it very serendipitous for us to delve into this layered and complex history, um, of the student movement. So [00:04:00] the Bangladesh student protests of July 2024, were deeply rooted in systemic inequalities that the young working class and the poor faced. Nearly 32 million young people were actually out of the workforce, or education in a population of a country of 170 million. So that’s a pretty significant number. And so that issue was a focal point for widespread discontent in the country. In July of 2024, the High Court of Bangladesh actually reinstated a quota system for government jobs after an appeal was made when the then-ruling Hasina government abolished the quota system, um because in 2018 she faced a lot of pressure from student protesters. But this quota system is really interesting, and it represents a lot. It reserved 30% of government jobs for descendants of freedom fighters. And in Bangladeshi history, that’s a very complex and layered identity. Millions of our [00:05:00] ancestors actually fought in the liberation war against the US-backed Pakistani military, and the Bangladeshi Liberation War, and genocide in Bangladesh actually resulted in the death of over three million people who sacrificed for the birth of our nation. And so for the Hasina government, the quota system was actually what she used to appoint a lot of her loyalists and her supporters to high levels of government, the military, and it basically created the political ecosystem for the Awami League, her party, to maintain dominance. And the Awami League actually was the party that once led the liberation struggle, and over the course of 15 years, we actually saw how much they consolidated power through political repression, the Digital Security Acts that was surveilling and targeting freedom of speech, as well as the corruption and fear that they [00:06:00] stoked against their opposition. And these government jobs, like most of us, it represents many things. It represents the government’s responsibility to take care of poor people, um, economic and political opportunity, and it also represents, like, the corruption and the authoritarian rule of the Awami League, and how they were rigging elections, and how the court systems, and even entrance exams for the Bangladeshi civil service, were actually regularly leaked and compromised. And so -within that background, that’s when you have the Students Against Discrimination movement take the streets in July demanding fair access to government jobs. And things actually got violent really fast. Within seven days, nearly 174 people were murdered, and thousands were injured. There was an indefinite curfew, social media blackouts, and then a military occupation with shoot on sight orders. And of course, the bullets that were raining upon, Bangladeshis were US, [00:07:00] arms. So students were terrorized by these vigilante groups that were collaborating with the Bangladeshi police. And these student groups were actually organized by the Bangladeshi Awami League. These student groups were notorious for repressing student elections, sexually assaulting students, um really threatening people that were running for student elections. And so there’s already this, like, vigilante ecosystem that exists within the campuses that was weaponized during the student protests. And then you have a climax moment on July 14th. Sheikh Hasina went on television accusing the students of being Razakars, and Razakars are collaborators of the Pakistani army, and it’s a very derogatory term in Bangladesh, and it refers to people who support the Pakistani military’s operation to suppress the Bangladeshi Liberation War. They’re also accused of heinous crimes. And so when students were accused of being Razakars, it, like, [00:08:00] lit a fire. Millions took the streets that day, and they were like, “Oh, hell no.” Like, “How dare she disrespect us?” While there’s thousands of people who are on the streets, blood, everywhere. Rickshaw wallas are having to pull students into hospitals. There’s just so much violence happening on the ground. And so on that National Day of Action, July 15th, clashes happen. Multiple deaths are live-streamed, and one of them, Abu Sayeed, he was a university student at Rangpur University in northwest Bangladesh, really galvanized the country because we watched this student, who is not armed, surrender and get sh- shot, by the Bangladeshi police. And we know what these spontaneous moments of violence do to the public, right? It usually always sets fire to another wave of social protests and action. And so then millions start marching to Sheikh Hasina’s home, and [00:09:00] really, her brutal and arrogant response sealed her fate. And the protesters, and at this point, this is a populist movement, millions of people that are rickshaw wallas, working-class people, students, teachers, are taking the streets, marching towards her house. And they demand her resignation. And on August 5th, within 36 days of the movement, she resigns and flees to India, our neighboring country. Over 1,400 people have been killed, under her brutal repression. And so that’s some of the background of the student movement, and we can talk more about some of the dynamics of it. Cayden: Yeah, that’s super helpful, and I think reflecting on the ways in which also the sort of, like, escalation on the part of the government is, I think, a really important story here, for sure. Samir, I’ll also now turn it to you. What should our listeners know about last fall’s uprisings in Nepal, which also ousted the sitting government of, K.P. Oli and his, his party and how they led to [00:10:00] elections, earlier this month, in March of this year?  Samir: Thanks, Cayden, and Happy Independence Day to you, Sharmin. I am somebody who was born and raised in Nepal, and am spending most of my life in the diaspora now, and I wanna name the limitations of, uh, my understanding of what’s going on in Nepal because of me not being on the ground organizing with the masses. And, I wanna honor the work that’s been happening in Nepal, on the ground one of the big things that, that’s really n- is important to name is, like, it’s only been 20 years since we abolished monarchy. Uh- Mm-hmm. … uh, 2006, right? That is a big thing for us to understand. And the party that was in power, and has been in power since, was the party that has been organizing our movements, and that is the organized left in Nepal, and, like, really betrayed our people once we, once they got into power, right? And, like, started kind of veering towards the right once they got in power. So 20 years later The economic conditions of our people on the ground are really dire. There’s no jobs available. People are migrating. A lot of our folks, one of the biggest source of economy and source of money for our, [00:11:00] our people back home is, like, migrant work, uh, in Dubai and, traveling to Dubai, Qatar, and working under very bad conditions. So one- that’s one of the big things that’s also been informing,, lot of the consciousness of the- our young people in Nepal, right? And then one of the other things that’s named really important is, so since the election, since 2006, the Communist Party, the Congress Party, and the Maoist Party have been, they’re the only ones who have been in power for the last 20 years, and these are all old upper caste men, even though they were the ones who were leading the movement and were organizing at left. But these were s- the representation and the leaders in these parties were all upper caste, caste Arya people, which is the dominant caste in Nepal, right? And that’s a very important layer to name. And that really informed, I think, a lot of the ways they showed up after we won. And, and that’s one, one big question that we always have in the left, right? What do we do after we- Yeah … abolish monarchy? What do we do after we win? And we haven’t figured that out too, as does any other movements, right? And 20 years later, the frustration is on the very high, against the status quo. And then we, and there [00:12:00] was a lot of, like, obviously there was a lot of inspiration from Bangladesh, like Indonesia, and, like, the uprisings there. And, like, this one, uh, thing started trending the young people started organizing around Nepo babies. There’s like, you know, “Yeah, you don’t have access to we do, you’re gonna take our access away from social media while your kids, and people who have connections to you and have, access to you are just posting about the life, the lavish life they’re living abroad and in my homelands,” right? So that’s one of the places where it started. And once that started, there was online campaign. And there was already conversations around banning social media in Nepal, and they were- Hmm … finding, like, different ways around it, and that really escalated the way people really responded to the situation, is like once they started organizing around Nepo babies and how they were, like, getting momentum around that, that’s when exactly the social media ban went into effect, right? And that’s a really important name because, like, one of the biggest pet peeves for me as a diaspora person has been this idea of people only started the uprising and took the streets because of the social media ban. [00:13:00] But just- Hmm. Mm-hmm … all these other things really added up to it. That was just the, just the point of escalation, right? So fast-forward, people started organizing on Discord. Uh, also the irony of it is that was one of the apps that was banned, uh, in Nepal as, uh… And people started organizing in Discord. And also wanna name the reality of, like, the only people who had access to Discord are also, like, privileged folks like us- Sure like younger, upper middle class people. So we were not really getting folks from outside Kathmandu and from our villages and from rural areas, right? So they didn’t really have any say in what the organizing would look like. So it happened very, organically, very decentralized. So there was a call for people to show up at Maitighar which has been a popular protest space in Nepal, for a very long time. And it was like at the, at the center of Kathmandu. So there was a call out september 8. A lot of folks came out, and then people from outside Kathmandu that couldn’t make it to Kathmandu started coming in big numbers. And the goal of the protest was peaceful protest, right? [00:14:00] And one of the things that happened, don’t quote me on this, but my understanding of it from, talking to people there is, like, a lot of political parties who had, who were the opposition from the Communist Party at that time started infiltrating the protest, and the protest started becoming, quote-unquote, “violent,”, which was not, uh, what the young people wanted. So fast-forward, that led to 19 deaths on the first day of the protest, which led to the home minister resigning, at the end of the day. But Oli, the prime minister, is so arrogant and really didn’t figure out the power of young people and, like, how they could keep mobilizing and organizing. He decided to just downplay them and say, “I’m not resigning,” which led to more heightened escalated protests the second day, where people started marching to the parliament buildings and started burning down buildings. And people started, people got to a lot of, like, the political parties’ political party leader home and started burning them, and, really started, holding them accountable. And also , there was videos of clips of, like, people torching into people’s homes and, like, [00:15:00] Sher Bahadur Deuba, who has been in power for the last 20 years in different, ways, who’s one of the, considered one of the most corrupt leader in Nepal, from Nepali Congress party, got attacked by the protesters. So fast-forward, more escalation led to, like, 52 more deaths, and the Oli party finally decided to resign at the end of that night, and that’s, that’s when curfew was impo- imposed by, the army. So that led to, like, a total of 72 deaths. I wanna name, like, in just the two days of mobilization, two days of organizing, because sometimes in the left we don’t understand. We talk about the similarities of our struggles but we don’t really talk about the conditions that led to it and, like, the level for the risk that our folks leveraged, to be able to topple the government, right? So I just wanna name that out loud and honor that part of, like, how the, how people, like, really leveraged risk. And then fast-forward, people started organizing. The conversation kept going on on Discord, and then there was, like, a town hall style meetings happening on Discord where, like, I think 7 to 8,000 people were on it. And also I still wanna name again, the people who didn’t have access to the internet and [00:16:00] phones were not able to part- participate in that. And decided Susila Karki, who was a chief justice 10 years ago, a woman, who also joined protesters during the first day of them mobilizing in the street. They decided, they voted, to hold her as the interim prime minister for now. And There was also one other layer is like a lot of people wanted Balen Sah, who is our prime minister now, but constitutionally if he was part of the interim government, he wouldn’t be able to run for prime minister. So that was like a strategic decision that, uh, like he made, and the movement made around not electing him as part of the interim government. So one of the big responsibilities of the interim government was to hold elections in six months, which honestly I was not very-  Cayden: That’s hugely ambitious. Samir: It is hugely ambitious, right? And also the reality is it happened, and also there are questions around, yeah, were we able to hold elections in a way where everybody had access to it, right? And that is a big question that I’m still asking, I’m still sitting with. But there were like record numbers that showed up to the polls, but [00:17:00] we haven’t really, like we still really don’t have answers around what accessibility looked like for people to show up at the polls. And fast-forward now, the Rastriya Swatantra Party which emerged at like a, at a very popular party in 2022, won with majority. And we just sworn in our new Prime Minister Balen Sah yesterday, we can talk about more later. Cayden: Well, thank you for summing up, both of you for summing up- Pretty long, complex histories fairly quickly for us. I’ve been thinking about the way that, like, Western media largely reports on these kinds of uprisings as if they come out of nowhere. And, like, we know as movement people that rarely, if ever, like, do they truly come out of nowhere. So, like, yeah, I wanna dig into what the longer arc of these stories really is. And I, I really wanna talk about, I guess, like, the specific texture in both Bangladesh and Nepal about how these protest movements position themselves against the government, against, like, other social forces, and, like, how kind of, like, other social phenomena acted on and shaped [00:18:00] these movements as well. Sharmin: I love that question ’cause it allows us to see, like, also the rich history of our, like, respective areas, and how much, like, young people have always been at the forefront of so many revolutionary struggles. And we often, um, you know, uh, post social media era like to make generalizations that this never existed before. But actually, you know, in Bangladesh, students are the most incredibly organized force that has shaped much of our history since 1947. The 1969 uprisings against Ayub Khan, the 1971 Liberation War, and then the , 1987 protests against the military dictator Ershad. And then later, our return to democratic governance in 1990 and the road safety protests of 2018, which actually laid the groundwork for so much of the student, frustration with the government not being able to keep students safe because of road safety issues and [00:19:00] just, the general mismanagement of transportation and, public resources. And so the campus has always been a key space for the pulse of the nation. But it’s also a key space for goons and vigilante groups to organize their forces. So the Bangladesh Awami League has their faction, the Chhatra League, and then there’s, you know, the Jamaat-e-Islami, which is the right-wing Islamist group of Bangladesh that has been growing, has their faction, the Chhatra Shibir. And then the Bangladesh Nationalist Party, which, you know, has been in opposition to the Awami League, also has their goons on campuses. And so one of the major, trends you’ll see during these moments is how these factions are actually weaponized to make sure that the violent state apparatus is deployed within public spaces. And, you know, you asked about, like, missteps and some of the things that political formations, might forget to plan for or think [00:20:00] about. And, you know, one of the things that I, I’m sure Samir can relate a little bit is, like, a lot of these student organizations, you know, students against discrimination, there was a group of men who claimed leadership of the student movement and formed, a party, the National Citizens Party. And you notice quickly the contradictions of their formation. All the women leaders were either asked to leave or they left because of what an undemocratic, unfeminist space it was. And then you noticed quickly that the National Citizen Party started allying itself with the right-wing forces to gain a populist base. And that, to me, is the, one of the biggest contradictions of what do leftists do when we gain power? And also, like, the sober conversation is, are these leaders leftists? Or did-  Cayden: Yeah, were they ever? Were they ever?  Sharmin: Or did we project our leftist dreams onto them and I think one of the things that [00:21:00] we’ve been doing for many generations, and I think Vincent Bevins’ work really synopsizes this well, in looking at the last decade of popular uprisings, is that we’ve been doing politics without ideology, right? Mm-hmm. That these political for- formations actually don’t have a coherent theory of change when they’re contesting for power. And so you notice quickly the National Citizens Party was very reactionary, and it was very anti-fascist by, their vernacular, but what anti-fascism meant was that we hate the Awami League, we’re gonna ban the Awami League, and the Awami League is no longer going to exist. And then we’re- Yes … gonna fight for Sheikh Hasina to be hanged, right? And so that became their populist slogan.  Cayden: Hmm.  Sharmin: And so, you know, there is no left force in Bangladesh, and that’s something that we have to name, that for sure there are garment workers that are organizing a party. There’s a communist league that does not actually grow in their base. Um- Hmm … and that is why coming out of [00:22:00] the July uprisings, you notice this leadership actually turned center right really fast because they didn’t have a, a vision that was rooted in economic and political struggles of the working-class students who made up majority of the base of people that were on the streets. Um, and you know, it was surprising, Cayden, I’ll just say, like, after the, the NCP was getting ready for elections that just happened this past February, they joined a coalition with the largest Islamist force of Bangladesh, and this is such a misstep, right? To join forces. W- your enemy of your enemy is not your friend, right? Like, wh- where, like, where, when has that gotten us anywhere? It falls into the traps of organizing without a clear, coherent ideology, and then the post-uprising impact is weakened. And so a lot of that groundwork of, like, theoretical work, we actually have to do that to be able to be ready for fights that take power in the way that [00:23:00] feel, restorative and generative, instead of what we’re seeing now, which is a populist right-wing growth in Bangladesh. Cayden: That feels like such an important lesson that we need to learn, unfortunately, over and over again, and I feel like this theme of, the enemy of my enemy is sometimes still my enemy has been coming up on this show a lot lately. That like, it, I, uh, you know, we see it happening in our movement politics here too, especially in, in this sort of moment of authoritarian retrenchment in our own government, that like, there are, there are challenges around that, and there’s like ways that I think, yeah, it makes sense that it feels good in the moment to be like, “Yeah, there’s more of us than there are of them.” But it’s like, well, who, who are us? Like, what is the us that we’re talking about? Samir, I will pass it to you to talk about, I guess, some of the texture that we should know about the protest movement in Nepal, and like what are the ways that, other social forces also outside the state have shaped the way that the protests have played out there. Samir: I was listening to Sharmin, and I was like, “Oh, there’s so many similarities,” [00:24:00] like in a lot of the political forces that led our movements and also like talking about K.P. Oli, there’s so many similarities of like how they were the face of the movement. And as somebody who really admired K.P. Oli because, you know, he was part of the social movement left. He was part of , like the first people’s movement struggles, uh, that happened in the ’90s that got rid of absolute monarchy. He was the face of the Communist Party. He did take up arms, right? So all of the tools that our revolutionary histories have used to, find liberation, right? So he used a diversity of tactics. Like, he started as somebody who believed in picking up arms. And then he led a people’s movement in the ’90s of, like with other political parties to get rid of the Panchayat system, which was a system of absolute monarchy and where all the political parties were dissolved right by the king from the 1960 to 1990, right? But one of the big things that I think we didn’t think about when our movements were being led, when our movement ancestors were organizing and like really thinking about is like what does identity mean for our movements. There’s political forces, [00:25:00] the social movement parties that are leading our people and organizing our people, and they did the organizing that happened in Nepal, the door-to-door, the base building that happened, if that was done by political parties, right? Which is true, and we need to name that layer, too. And I think one of the things that we’re missing in this moment right now is we have been so, so frustrated by the last 20 years of governance by these forces. We wanna forget the political history of how we got here, right? Mm-hmm. And that has been one of my big critique of the young people in Nepal, right? And for me, I also think about as somebody who’s getting older and also had access to my dad who was part of this movement, right? He was a big force as part of the Communist Party, and now he’s heavily traumatized because of the way he got betrayed by his comrades, right? And I think one of the forces I was talking about identity is, like, all of these political forces were led by upper caste Brahmin men, and there was no indigenous representation. So finally, the 1990, we were able to get rid of absolute [00:26:00] monarchy. By ’96, we still don’t have full democracy in Nepal, so, you know, the Maoists decided to wage a civil war where they really organized the masses, and really created conditions for the monarchy, to bow down, right? And the Maoist party came out of this forest and, like, built a coalition with the Communist Party and the Congress Party to take the streets again. In 2006, we finally were able to get rid of monarchy, but 2006 to 2014 was a struggle to, like, really, draft a new constitution for us, where we made some progress and where we also did some things where it took us back around, like, women’s rights, right? And so there was a big feminist movement that really created, like, organizing conditions of 2026 in so many ways, right? And one of the things that we were seeing during the last 20 years is what’s happening is all the communist parties, the people who led our movements and uprisings were veering towards the right, right? Hmm. Because they consolidated more power, like, you know, exactly what happened with, uh, Bangladesh. They consolidated more power where, you know, they could stay in power [00:27:00] for long. The indigenous folks were part of the struggles and the uprisings in the 100 years of our movement struggles. But once we won and they got, the Communist Party got into power, they started, like, pushing policies that would not benefit indigenous peoples, right? And then one of the big things that Nepal wanted is federalism in terms of, like, one of the big critiques of Nepal has been the government is so centralized in Kathmandu. Other people outside of Kathmandu really don’t get to take part in politics. And, so federalism was one of the big things that we pushed for, right? At Indigenous Struggles, that is the one thing that we pushed for so that we can govern our homelands, and that was the one thing that Oli was, like, against too, and that was also one of the reasons why he started becoming less and less popular, right? But one of the things that’s 2026 was, I think it’s also really important to understand, is the 2026 uprisings were led by youth who I believe, I dare to say, didn’t have, the full understanding, the political understanding of our political histories in that way. And there’s this, like, disconnect in terms of, like… it’s hard for me to bridge the 100 years of left in Nepal [00:28:00] and like, you know, this youth uprising that’s happening in Nepal that has no connection because it’s not an organized group, right? It’s very decentralized. Right. It happened on Discord. And that is one of the big questions we have now is, like, how do we as young people, the young people who led this uprisings, how do they stay organized, right? And that is a big question we still don’t, we don’t have answers to, right? The movement histories and, you know, the last 20 years has been very traumatizing, but there’s also so many lessons and so many beautiful things that happened during the organizing, right? So how do we make those connections? How do we ask those questions? How do we talk to this feminist group? How do we talk to, like, workers, right? We need to figure that out. And I think one of the big things, like Sharmin talked about too, is like the student protest student movements were a big part of how we got liberation in Nepal, and the student movements are like directly connected to political parties because they have the student wing. But that also doesn’t mean they are not organized. Yes, they were organized, and they really figured it out, but they have gotten corrupt. There’s goons there, there’s only men there. [00:29:00] And, like, how do we really ask those questions as a movement now and start building on some of our social movement histories? And that is a big question. And I haven’t heard anything, and I’m very curious what’s gonna happen on that, and I’ve been sitting with that a lot, too.  Cayden: Yeah. No, I, I mean, I feel like thinking about the challenges in remembering and then sometimes, like, having movement history misremembered to us by people with motivations. I can see how in that way for these young people who are getting organized, who are, like, trying to figure out what they want from the government in the future . there’s some real, delicate territory for them to negotiate around, like, understanding themselves in a lot of ways as political and historic actors, which is really interesting. Swati Rayasam: You are tuned in to Apex Express on 94.1 KPFA, 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno and online@kpfa.org.  Cayden: One of the other trends that [00:30:00] I would love to talk about is this, sort Western media trend where, an uprising happens somewhere, a protest movement happens somewhere, and they’re like, “Oh, there’s an interim government. Great.” And then, like, in the US, we don’t hear anymore the establishment of interim government is, first of all, deeply informed by the social movements and social forces that are already moving on the ground and also glosses over the way politics is done in a particular place. I’m wondering if there’s stuff that you’ve noticed that has really been lost from the international media discourse about the politics of both Bangladesh and Nepal since the sort of student uprising moment. And if there’s stuff that you’ve been seeing in the like, interim government moments that you’re like, “Oh, this is something to watch out for.” Like, “This is something that we can draw some lessons from.”  Sharmin: Yeah. Well, in Bangladesh we had a United States favorite Nobel Laureate, you know, Muhammad Yunus- Mm-hmm as our interim government. And, and I think what’s so fascinating is that, you know, he is the world’s sweetheart because he created [00:31:00] this, like, you know, microfinancing program that is, a program that they say, you know, empowers the poor people. And, we know that in practice it actually did not reverse poverty, and it actually left millions of people in more debt, than, they or- originally were projected to gain. And so I think what’s very fascinating about having such a pro-capitalist, figure that is, a sweetheart of empire, it spoke to his legacy in office, you know? During his time, he also signed one of the most devastating US-Bangladesh trade agreements with Trump- Hmm … which actually, further isolates China from the Bangladeshi trade market and, forces Bangladesh to do all of our trade deals with the US. And it’s a non-binding agreement. And so it is, deeply unlawful and also devastating to the economy of this area of Southeast Asia that actually needs China as, an ally, as a country that has, contributed a lot to the development of [00:32:00] our, transportation systems and, so for us it- it’s also about how much of this interim government was, you know, representing the interests of the global elite and what he was willing to do to be able to s- to, to squash, revolutionary energy within the country. The Women’s Commission was one of the most powerful consolidation of feminist leaders under the interim government that were looking to reform land laws for women. And similar to what, Samir was saying, right? Women’s rights just are the first thing that these governments throw under the bus and that- women’s commission report that was looking to really examine land laws and inheritance laws and and the rights of women economically like actually triggered one of the largest anti-feminist rallies in the country’s history- Wow … where millions, millions of Jamaat-e-Islami men and their supporters took the streets in [00:33:00] protest of women having rights. And that was something you did not see the Western media touch, even-  Cayden: No …  Sharmin: even though the Western media was, like, so excited for this revolution, right? You know, on the ground too, you have those people that are like, “This is a CIA-backed, like, uprising,” right? And then on the ground you see, like, oh yeah, people actually don’t want to touch the complexities of this country because it is layered within, like, religious nationalisms- Mm-hmm ethnic nationalisms, and caste. And so in my experience, I would just say that people know very little of the political forces within this, greater West Asian political landscape and how it connects to US imperialism here and abroad, you know? Pakistan was once the CIA’s closest ally in the Cold War, and they continue to be during the war on terror right now, right? Mm-hmm. The United States provided Pakistan with military, diplomatic, and economic support because a [00:34:00] pro-US military dictatorship in this region that was a staunch anti-communist ally created a buffer between the axis of the USSR, China. Cayden: Hmm.  Sharmin: And then I’ll say at the same time, on the ground, there were dozens of reports of mobs that were attacking temples and Hindu leaders. Hindus are a minority in Bangladesh that have been historically, marginalized, and these contradictions were, were getting highlighted, right? Because that violence was eerily similar, right? The partition of South Asia- Yeah …  Cayden: excluded  Sharmin: Hindu-Muslim communalism, and there were tensions and divides that fell across class lines. And for Western and, hegemonic media outlets, this looked like, oh, the Muslims are attacking the Hindus again.  Samir: Right.  Sharmin: And so for me, like, the being able to reckon Islamophobia, communal violence, identity and class politics, but also the way nationalism operates in South Asia, it, it’s a tricky dance [00:35:00] And I’ve been learning how to really convey this complex history because the country’s, uh like, beautiful history of, like, using guerrilla warfare to defeat US-backed forces in the region, it also represents something different from its neighbors, India and Pakistan. Mm-hmm. And within that, you know, we have Bangladesh joining the PLO in Lebanon to fight on behalf of Palestinian liberation. We have the fact that the country’s actually i- inception was based on a socialist vision, right? And it’s now one of the fastest-growing economies in the world with the fast fashion garment industry that’s also ravaged by climate crisis and mass displacement. And so for me, it always just comes back to anti-war and anti-imperialism, like all the nodes of my brain, because I’m like, “Here’s this US global death-making machine and this defense industry that sells tear gas shells to my country and [00:36:00] sells Israeli surveillance technology to my country.” And then there’s this Bangladesh trade agreement that Trump was able to wager during this vulnerable moment for our country and it’s at the core of all the political and economic violence within my country. And so the neoliberalization of our campuses and what these students are facing is because of the war economy. And so, so I just, like, zoom out in those moments, and I’m like, “Oh, this, this feels very much so like Cold War politics and the aftermath.”  Cayden: Yeah, like the politics of the Cold War have just simply never left us. Like, they’re still here, and it’s like we’ve sort of swapped in China as the big bad in a lot of ways.  Sharmin: Right.  Cayden: Samir, I wonder if there’s, stuff that you’ve been seeing about the interim government in Nepal that you think are worth our sort of examination as kind of like lessons that we can draw from what happens after the protest, and yeah, like how that has been part of the electoral moment also we’re in in Nepal right now. Samir: Yeah, [00:37:00] well, the interim government was, what was it, about five months. I think we didn’t really see a lot of work that happened from the interim government, but obviously one of the big wins of the interim government was they were successfully able to hold elections. And the Western media has only focused on Balen Saha, this, quote-unquote, “rapper,” this charismatic guy who is gonna, who’s 35 years old and is gonna lead. And then like Sushila Karki, I mean, one of the big things that everybody is like, “Oh, she’s the first woman prime minister of Nepal, and what does that mean for us?” And, you know, this identity politics of like, “Oh, we finally got a woman president.” And for us it’s like when we talk about it, that’s the only thing we see in the discourse. But the reality is she was also a woman prime minister in an interim government that she knew was gonna last for six months, right? And also one of the things that a lot of people don’t think about and realize is like the youth really didn’t know who she was. And I think that’s one of the big things that Sarmin talked about too, is like how do our youth have the consciousness? And do we have a left, social movement left, that’s actually supporting them to really understand, you know, the conditions [00:38:00] of our people and who we’re electing and, like, how we’re organizing and what that means for us, right? But one of the big popularities about her was, like, she was not a career, jurist as she was appointed, was a lawyer that was appointed to the Supreme Court in 2009 by the Judicial Council, and she had this reputation of pushing back against some of the political parties and some of the establishments in that time. So that was, like, one of the big things that really lured our folks, there was this one interview of her that went really viral about how she talks about, you know, establishment parties and how she challenged, some of the status quo while she was… Because a lot of times what happens with some of these appointments are people who are loyal to the to the parties, right? That was the one big thing that really attracted a lot of our young folks, to mobilize around her being the prime minister. And it’s just, like, a lot of unknowns around, like, we still don’t know because with the older parties, it was very clear to us that the Communist Party was, like, more loyal to China, right? And the Congress party was more loyal to India. And then one of the things a lot that we don’t see in the discourse even in left spaces, right? Even [00:39:00] in, like, media spaces is, more than US imperialism, India and China is also waging some form of imperialism in our homelands, right? And that we don’t wanna name that layer because in the US, as, us being in the belly of the beast, our only responsibility is to fight US imperialism. And then for me, as somebody from the Global South, I understand that how that impacts our movement and how that is dangerous and harmful to our people in our, back in our homeland. Because China and India are bullying Nepal in a lot of different ways politically, right? Because nothing happens in Nepal without the consent of India and China, right? And India obviously has more power, and they’re, like, fighting over that power in Nepal right now. And the other thing that I wanted to name is, I was hoping K.P. Oli, during our interim prime ministership, during that interim government, would be held accountable, which didn’t happen. And we’re not talking about that, right? And also she [Karki] had a lot of limitations, and we still are figuring out what, like, what kind of power she held, right? But the hope was for me was, like, that she would hold the people who were responsible for our people’s deaths accountable during the six months she was there, which [00:40:00] really didn’t happen and really moved. And that’s one of the things that hasn’t been talked about, and I think that was a big political opportunity for her to do some of that work to push K.P. Oli out of power because he, after doing all of this, was still able to contest the elections and lost really badly. But one of the things for me, the inspiration was, like, how Sheikh Hasina was pushed out of the country, right? Like, that was one of the hopes and dreams, and that didn’t really happen, during this interim government.  Cayden: Hmm. That’s interesting that there’s, like, a possibility that he might be back. Well, I wanna turn a little bit to thinking about this history that’s been unfolding and, like, what it is like to be observing, talking to comrades and loved ones as an organizer who’s based here in the US as part of your diasporic community. One of the things I think a lot about is, like- When we talk about solidarity with people’s movements internationally in the US, sometimes we forget that, like, people from those diasporas are our comrades. They are here. And that we have a lot to, [00:41:00] like, learn from them. What has it been like watching the sort of, like, social movements in Bangladesh and Nepal respectively, and what has it been like to have that consciousness as an organizer here in the US dealing with all of the political stuff that we’ve been dealing with here? Samir: I love that you asked that question, Cayden, and also, like, yes, I just wanna start with, like, this layer of like, oh, yes, we have comrades here who are from these diasporic communities who actually can inform us in this. And to add another layer to that, even with, with my, you know, my history of being born and raised in Nepal and, like, being connected to our movements there and, like, living here for the last 20 years now, right? That also creates another layer where I don’t have access to everything, and that also creates a layer of, like, that I don’t have to know everything, right? And I wish our left- Mm-hmm … Western left understood that layer sometimes because – In our movements, I’m gonna go be a little– I’m gonna little shit about our movements here, you know? Because one of the things that happens is, like, the romanticization of what’s going on in our homelands without understanding, and this idea- Mm-hmm of, like-like, we have to know the answers to every… It’s okay to not have answers. I think that’s a big thing that I reflect on a lot as somebody here, [00:42:00] right? And also, the reality is I have access to my father, who is, for me, the only revolutionary that I know who was part of, like, social movements and who, like, really spent his whole life to the movement and is now still doing things after being betrayed by his party, right? So I think that’s one of the big things. I think it’s okay to know that. I think the second thing for me as somebody in the diaspora, it’s my role in the diaspora. It’s also what is my role in the diaspora to inform my comrades. If you’re an upper-caste person, it is your responsibility to name that in the movement spaces that you hold and name that layer- Mm … and inform people about that layer. I think about that a lot. I sit up, I sit with that and reflect on that a lot, and that really informs the way I show up as somebody in the diaspora. And my responsibility, one of the things that we saw when all of this was happening you know, the movements, the social movement left was so fast, got into this train of, like, it’s a Color Revolution [i.e., the revolution is backed by the US government/is a US-led intervention], as if our peoples don’t have the capacity to organize. Yes, there was infiltrations. Yes, India was involved. But yes, there was also uprising where 70 people died, right? So just, bringing it down to, like, it’s not really being complex and, like, [00:43:00] being nuance about that. And that really is harmful to our people back home, right? Because that, in that, when we’re doing that, we’re taking away, like, access from our people in terms of, like, how they are doing things. And also, like, really, I think invalidating the fact that our, the governments that was being oppressing against the uprisings are oppressive. So that just, like, invisibilizes, uh, what the state is doing, right? Because it is a Color Revolution, you know. The, it is not led by the people. We’re, there was even sign, things like they said, like, “Oh, there were signs in English.” Like, can you just think about, you know, the, the orientalist, uh, you know-  Cayden: Yeah …  Samir: orientalist way that you are thinking even as somebody who considers yourself a social movement left. So that’s, I think, one my, that, for me, that is a big responsibility. And- And that is where I can also make an impact as somebody in the diaspora. I am not on the ground, that is the reality of it, and knowing where I can make impact and how I can make impact, and knowing very clearly that I don’t have all the answers, and I’m not– I’m an outsider in so many… I go back home every time I go home for a couple of months, the way I show up in these movement spaces [00:44:00] is I’m here to listen and I’m an outsider, and I’m trying to figure out how I can support you, right? And that is, for me, a role as a diasporic person, and I’m very clear on that. And I think it’s also because I have access to my dad who grounds me in that, and it’s like- Mm-hmm “Samir, you don’t live here anymore.” He will remind me very clearly. He’s like, “You don’t live here anymore.” And you need to understand that, and that’s okay.” And he will ground me in that, and that really helps me in terms of thinking of how I wanna show up as a diasporic person.  Cayden: Yeah. No, that’s, that’s really helpful, and I think that, like, this thing that you’re describing about the sort of like in some ways, like, healthy, but in other ways sort of, like, overblown skepticism that US observers can have about uprisings, revolutions in other countries just because, like… The, the word that came to mind as you were describing it was, like, infantilizing, right? That it’s, like, as if people can’t independently form their own political opinions without the intervention of the, like, global superpower is just sort of, like, baffling to me. You hit on something that, like, I think about a lot [00:45:00] also as somebody who is, like, a generation removed from the immigrant generation in my family. I don’t have a ton of relationships with my family who are in Hong Kong and China, but, like, how do I, like how do I relate to that? It’s very challenging, and it’s- and I, I think that there’s so much in, like, US like left social movement discourse that I’m just kind of like, “I actually don’t know how to relate to this as a diasporic person sometimes.” Sharmin, I’m also interested to hear from you on this.  Sharmin: Yeah. Yeah, similarly, I feel, I feel like there is this, like, uh, relationality that it’s pushing people that are here to really think about more clearly. I feel like some of the early ’70s through the ’90s was a very, like, symbolic type of solidarity that we had- Mm-hmm where, where, you know, we would do the cultural attire, the cultural associations, you know, the melas, which are, like, big fairs that we have in these hubs of, like, immigrant communities. And now I think the politics are coming back. Like, I think after the July uprising, [00:46:00] you actually saw solidarity actions popping up across hubs in, you know, New York and California where people were like, “Actually, this impacts me and I wanna talk about what this means. I wanna talk about the cultural and political organizations that run this local community.” And one thing that I really took back from the last two visits to Bangladesh is really learning the skills of talking to somebody who disagrees with me because-  Cayden: Hmm …  Sharmin: I think in the United States the left does not practice, being able to engage, talk, even, like, be in relationship with people that might be politically opposed to you. And so when I go to Bangladesh, I’m actually surrounded by a lot of homophobes. I’m surrounded by a lot of men who, like, support the Awami League, and I’ve had to kind of, like, sit in this in between of being like, “Oh, yeah, like, I actually have to learn how to debate better. I have to learn how to, like, you know, be that person that’s, like, holding humanity but also holding the, the critical left analysis that I, I believed in to be right because I [00:47:00] know I’m right.” Right? And I know that, like, this is a hill that’s worth dying on. And I think with Mamdani’s win in, in New York, like, there’s so many examples of how that, like, South Asian left politic that’s actually talking about class exists- Mm-hmm.  Cayden: Yeah …  Sharmin: within the geography of our communities. And, you know, especially for, you know, Samir and I are, like, the minority South Asians, so we’re not the Indian upper caste. And so for us, we’re like, “This has always been the reality of our people.” They are working-class organizers. They’re people who know how to talk about the intricacies of domestic labor, about the unorganized labor forces, about the people that are left out of the political agenda of our government. And so for me, like, I really take some of the lessons that DRUM [ Desis Rising Up and Moving]  is doing on the ground in New York around what it means to actually build a member base that’s rooted in relationship, but also towards a North Star. And that North Star, it looks a little socialist. It looks a little working class. It looks [00:48:00] very deeply rooted in a feminist, anti-oppressive politic. And I think for someone in diaspora, that’s been the biggest growth area for me, where I’m like, “How do I hold this vision and not lose hope that my people are not, like, all right-wing people that are out to, like, you know, destroy me and my people?” But we are in this center-right populous moment that will require us to do cultural shift. It will require us to do that, like, slow work of tilling the land, like Ella Baker spade work. And you know, a comrade of mine, Nafiz, who’s a brilliant writer at Jamhor, when I was talking to him about processing the February elections, he was just like, “You know, I actually think, like, I’m seeing a lot of possibility right now because I saw what happened to Egypt after Tahrir Square, and I saw where Egypt went and what a military dictatorship did to that country.” And he was like, “And Bangladesh, that’s not what happened to us.” And, and he was like, “And this is important for us to really reckon with how… Not to [00:49:00] say, like, ‘Oh, it could be so much more worse,’ but it could be so much more worse.” And we have to work within these, like, terrains in a way that’s, like, really reckoning with why are people wanting to find comfort in these right-wing religious social groups, because they are the only organized groups of people that are providing shelter and food. And so unless the left fills that gap, we are gonna see right-wing populism, and we’ve seen it within white supremacy here, but it translates to every Global South country, from Brazil to, you know, um, obviously South Asia. And so yeah, I just am trying to be more, like, relative in that way, where I’m like-  Cayden: Hmm Sharmin: “Oh, we’re a lot more relative than we think we are.”  Cayden: Yeah. That is such a good insight about, like, having to context switch Across geography, across political context, like builds a, like a really important muscle for us as organizers. This has been an absolutely fantastic [00:50:00] conversation and I’ve learned so much from both of you. My one sort of like, well I have two outgoing questions and they’re sort of related to one another. One is thinking about like as a monolingual English speaker, as somebody who’s like in the US, I think one of the things that I’ve often felt a challenge around is like where do I look to for news, for updates, and for analysis about what’s going on in the Global South, especially for places where I have no cultural or language connection. And like when you’re assessing news and information that’s coming out about movement politics. What do you consider, what do you think about, what are the questions you ask yourself when you’re like seeing headlines, kinda day-to-day that you think would be useful for other folks to start thinking about? Sharmin: Yeah. I, I really think about, like, multiple nationalisms right now, that there’s, like, these competing forces of, like, who gets to tell the story. And I always, like to think about, like, how, uh, US [00:51:00] interests, Chinese interests, or even, like, Indian interests are determining the news landscape right now. And I don’t like to think about it, but I, I’ve been looking at so much coverage that feels very much like, yikes, like what is going on, with our, like, news ecosystem? And unfortunately, I think we need to get back on Facebook. Like, I think that the fact that- … progressives and the left have left Facebook, like, I get it. Fuck Meta, and Facebook is the main place for so much like organizing. And we-  Cayden: Contest every space.  Sharmin: Get back on Facebook. Who cares if there are right-wing trolls on it? You we have to create alternative like information systems that are, like, really amplifying to these networks and groups of people that are getting inundated with that information. And I think we’re really lucky because there’s a lot of leftist South Asian publications now, Himal South Asian, Jumphore, you could become Patreon supporter and really be a part of these legacy, South Asian [00:52:00] left, thinkers that are actually thinking about, like, the long-term arc, and they, they’re contending with socialism. They’re contending with the communist, like, legacies of our organizations. And so, I just really appreciate that they’re doing political analysis with politics and not just focusing on, like, symbolic forms of, like, political analysis. So shout-out to them and, and their hard work because yeah, they, they’re English media that is getting translated for this day and age, you know? Cayden: Yeah. I… It was really exciting to me to, like, do a lot of the sort of, like, background for this conversation and find, like, English language movement media coming out of South Asia. I was like, “This is so exciting.” Like, this is… I feel like in some ways the thing that they’re trying to do is, like they’re kind of our comrades- Mm-hmm in a sense, right? Like, they’re trying to do a similar thing to the thing that we’re trying to do at Convergence, and I was like, “Ooh, this is really cool. Like, I’m bookmarking this.” Yeah. So I don’t know. Samir, do you have, do you have other thoughts about, like, what things [00:53:00] US people should be thinking about as they’re kind of assessing news and developments? Samir: Yeah, big ups Himal Magazine. I think that is a big source of information for me too. And also as somebody who struggles with reading Nepali now, which I’m very embarrassed of it’s really hard for me to get access. to. I have to sit with my dad to, like, really go through some of the news articles, which, you know, my dad gracefully agrees. Uh, I think one of the big things is, like, I do benefit a lot from his free labor. I’ll just name that on this podcast. But I think, and one of the things I would say is like- Thanks,  Cayden: dad …  Samir: really, like, figuring out, like, I don’t know, like, pushing through the binary of, like, what US imperialism means for Nepal and what also there’s, there could be other forms of imperialism that I named earlier, that Sharmin named too. And also right now, I think there’s a lot of unknowns for us too, right? We have this party that was not part of the political establishment that came into picture in 2024. So we are still grappling with the idea of, like, what does this mean for us? Who are they gonna be loyal to, and how does, what does this mean for geopolitics in Nepal, right? So we are still sitting with that question. And there is some clarity around, I think one of the things I would say is there’s a [00:54:00] lot of excitement, even in diaspora community, and my role in the diaspora also has been talking to some of my friends who are stoked about this prime minister right now because we haven’t built a left that is informing them of the nuances and, like, how we can actually figure out the critique of this person, right? Because for me, I think it’s really important the social movement left to understand because even my friend, my comrades are sending me, “Oh, this rapper is a prime minister now.” It’s somebody that I trust a lot, right? Yeah. And I have to do the work of like, “Hey, this person has this history of governing in this way when he became the mayor of Kathmandu, where he was against poor people,” right? He did some changes, structural changes that helped, upper middle class people. And using that as a way to, like, really assess what he’s gonna do for Nepal, and I’m actually skeptical, right? He is somebody from the Madhesi movement, which is a indigenous group that is very marginalized in Nepal, but he also comes from a very upper class background, right? And that’s also real. We have to name that. His party’s ideology is to push us away from federalism in some sense, right? And also the reality is they had a majority, they won a majority because we didn’t have a social movement left outside of political parties that would help us assess him, right? [00:55:00] So that’s, I think that’s the question. Those are some of the questions I would love people to ask, because I am asking those questions as somebody who is from Nepal and from the diaspora, and I check myself every time. And yeah, I will end it with, like, it’s okay to not have all the answers, and just, yeah, do some of that work of, like, reflecting on, like, asking yourself how you are taking in some of the information that you’re seeing. And obviously, Himal Magazine is a big source, and one of the Substacks that I would highly recommend too is, I think we could put it in the links later, it’s called Kalam Weekly, which is on Substack. I have some critiques of their writing too, but that’s really been helping me understand what’s going on in Nepal right now.  Cayden: You both have been so incredibly generous with your time, and this has been such a rich conversation. I don’t know if there are places also where if our listeners want to follow your work, I don’t know, if there’s organizations or places where you are publishing thoughts, either your own or organizationally that you wanna share. Sharmin, is there any place people can find you online? Sharmin: Yeah, for sure. We’re building the Asian American left at 18 Million Rising, so you could follow us there, and I’m @sharminultra [00:56:00] on all social media.  Cayden: And Samir, is there a place people can find you?  Samir: Uh, yeah, I am a very quiet person. Uh, but direct action has been a big part of our struggles in the last few years, and we are really thinking about, like, how we can escalate strategically, so I am part of a network of direct action trainers called the Ruckus Society. Hit us up. We do trainings, go to our website, request a training if you need any direct action support. We love nerding out on action design and thinking about action curriculum and how we train our people to do action safely. And follow Ruckus Society, and I don’t really have a social that’s public, so…  Cayden: that’s so fair. I respect your choice not to be perceived.  Samir: I mean, also, I’m not Sharmin, I feel I learn from her so much, from Sharmin, so I just wanna name that, and also just from how I- And  Sharmin: we’re friends. Like, we, we’ve done direct actions together. Like, we’ve been arrested together. Like-  Cayden: Yeah. …  Sharmin: we’re comrades, so it’s just so fun to be able to talk about this- Well, I really-  Cayden: Yeah …  Yeah. Thanks again, Sharmin, Samir. Absolutely a pleasure to talk, and I’m, I’m sure we’ll talk again soon.  Sharmin: Talk soon. [00:57:00] Thank you, guys.  Samir: Talk soon. Thank you, Cayden. Thanks, Convergence. Swati Rayasam: thanks so much for tuning in to Apex Express, and an extra special thanks to our comrades at Convergence Magazine and the Block and Build Podcast. All of the show notes mentioned in the episode can be found on the Apex website at kpfa.org/program/apexexpress. Find out what Convergence is up to at convergencemag.com. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important. Apex Express is a collective of activists that includes Ayame Keene Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Lee, Jelena Keene Lee, Miko Lee, Preeti Mangaleshakr, and me, Swati Rayasam. Thank you so much to the team at KPFA for their support, and have a great night. [00:58:00]  The post APEX Express – 7.2.26 – International Youth Movements appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 6.25.26 – Spitting Fire: Doktora Robyn Speaks 25.06.2026 59мин

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Host Miko Lee checks in with Dr. Robyn Rodriguez and we get to check out her podcast Spitting Fire: Doktora Robyn Speaks.   SHOW TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.   [00:00:34] Miko Lee: Welcome to Apex Express. I’m your host, Miko Lee, and tonight I’m so excited to talk to my lovely colleague, Dr. Robyn Rodriguez. Robyn is such a powerful leader. She’s often called the people’s professor. She was a professor of Asian studies at UC Davis, and now runs the Reimagination Lab. She has created a farm that is a collective action space, and she is really thinking about new ways to reimagine our world. I’m so excited for you to learn more about Dr. Robyn and you’re gonna get to hear from her new podcast, which is called appropriately, Spitting Fire: Doktora Robyn Speaks. And I just love this, ’cause spitting fire is this term for women that can speak out and share their stories, and Robyn has so much to tell. So I’m gonna interview her, and then you’re gonna get to listen to her new podcast, Spitting Fire. Thanks so much for joining us on Apex Express.   [00:01:36] Welcome back Dr. Robyn Rodriguez to Apex Express.   [00:01:41] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Oh, thank you so much for having me.    [00:01:44] Miko Lee: I’m so happy to have you with us once again. And I have asked you this before, but sometimes things change in the amount of years we’ve spoken to each other. So I’m gonna ask again, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   [00:02:00] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Yeah, who are my people? I think about folks of color broadly as my people. Whenever I refer to my people, I really do think about those of us who share intertwined and yet also distinct histories of colonization, empire, War, Violence. I think of all of us who’ve descend from peoples who’ve survived, fought back thrived, in spite of all that as my people and the legacy I hope to leave is lessons on continuing to not just dismantle the systems that caused harm on our ancestors and continue to cause harm for us now, but to offer also lessons on liberation and what it can look like and feel like so that we can continue to not just again, dismantle, but also build out the worlds we want.    [00:03:15] Miko Lee: Speaking of lessons, you have a brand new podcast series called Spitting Fire Doc. Robyn Speaks, and I wonder if you can talk to me about how this podcast came to be.   [00:03:27] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : You’re gonna laugh. Well, there are a couple of things I think that lead to the podcast. I’ve always wanted to do a podcast. I did college radio when I was an undergrad at UC Santa Barbara. I had a co-host for a show called WAR Women in the Act of Resistance, and we used to love to always say, we declare war on.   [00:03:53] Miko Lee: I love that.    [00:03:53] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Whatever it is that we, yeah,    [00:03:58] Miko Lee: that’s so good.    [00:03:59] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : I, I, yeah. So I, I love doing college radio and have always, you know, people would joke or I don’t know if it was a joke, but compliment me on having a kind of good radio voice. I don’t know how true that is.   [00:04:16] Miko Lee: Very true, true.   [00:04:16] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : But I’ve always had a, an interest in, podcasting as a platform. I think in general I prefer the long form platform. I prefer storytelling and, uh, there’s something really powerful about podcasts is I think for me, really connected to radio programming. I don’t see them, I guess, in very different ways. So I’d always wanted to do podcasts even when I was still teaching at, uc Davis, in Asian American Studies. I always thought podcasts are a really, really powerful way to share the knowledges of ethnic studies beyond the classroom. So I’d actually clipped on a recorder while I was lecturing and had uploaded a bunch of a raw unedited audio to what used to be iTunes University. So in some ways that might have been like the first podcast in a way. And then the funny thing about, uh, Spitting Fire it was kind of launched a little sooner than I was ready to be honest. I basically messed up on what was supposed to be a Zoom video. I don’t know exactly what happened, but we only had audio and I thought, you know what? We’re slapping that together, editing it and putting it out there, because I thought that the conversation that we had over Zoom was so, just really powerful and informative, and I didn’t want to not have it circulate in the world. And so I’ve sort of tried to proceed in that way. I, I guess I see podcasting alongside YouTube videos and other long form and even just more written essays as the sets of long form digital media that I tend to prefer and also recognize as an educator that people learn in so many different ways. Some people are able to learn better, by listening closing their eyes and listening and are able to kind of absorb knowledge differently in that way. Others respond better to a kind of visual medium. Others like to read. And as an educator too, I feel like each of the mediums can be really effective in terms of conveying and transmitting knowledge. But again, I have a preference if I have to use digital media for the long form. I do worry that the sort of clipped, abbreviated, kind of versions of digital media that is social media, whether it’s TikTok or Instagram and other sorts, or just, I don’t know that they serve us in the way that, especially as an educator, that I    [00:07:08] Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing. I’m wondering how you ended up selecting this lovely title. You went from WAR in college to Spitting Fire. Tell me about where this title comes from.   [00:07:19] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : You know, I think it must have been a student, honestly, who had said, oh, look at Dr. Rob Spitting Fire after some talk. And I, I was sort of drawn to that. I think too, honestly, as an Asian American woman I think I was kind of playing a little bit with these stereotypes of Asian American women as kind of dragon ladies. And, but trying to kind of remake that in a way to kind of paint a picture of sort of fierce Asian American woman who is unafraid to speak truth to power. I think I’ve been feeling as and in my interactions with younger generations of women, I do feel as if younger Asian American women, and again, maybe it has to do with social media maybe the permanency of that. The circulation of media and how rapidly it spreads. Cancel culture. I feel that there is a kind of timidness that I’m encountering with younger Asian American women who are a little bit reluctant to speak up and speak out without really taking a moment to first compose themselves. Edit and then maybe post or share. And I guess I, I had hoped that image of spitting fire might conjure up a different way of being, as a kind of Asian American, woman, and activist, and organizer. And that’s even why I think I was really drawn to just not over editing any of the content. You know, if there were was content that I could pull from other conversations I was having, that might have been like originally a Zoom for instance, but might you know, be conveyed better to somebody who Is more of a listener than a a watcher or a viewer that could invite, people or women in particular feeling like it’s okay to not be perfect. It’s okay to be able to stand by a thought and recognize that are the things that we, we say in a particular moment have history and context and need to be understood in that way. So it plays with that image of, I think the dragon lady, Asian American woman, dragon leader lady. And also, you know, I always talk about my middle name. It’s such an important part of who I am and my identity, but my middle name, which I get from my mother. Was my mother’s maiden name means to be angry in Filipino, and I’ve always loved it because it was actually a made up name. It was a name that my great-great-grandfather claimed for himself. Changing his name from De Los Reyes, which means of the kings to Magalit to be angry because he was a revolutionary against the Spanish. And I’m so fiercely proud of this revolutionary lineage that I hold. And I think in a way, Spitting Fire also reflects that lineage of ancestors who’ve never been afraid to stand up, speak out and again, speak truth to power.   [00:10:54] Miko Lee: Ooh, that was such a lovely answer. I really appreciate reclaiming the dragon Lady is furious and powerful and a revolutionary figure. I think that’s so lovely because usually we just think of the dragon lady as this evil villain, but dragons in Asian culture are creatures that are to be revered and are powerful and lucky too.   [00:11:19] So, I so appreciate that. I really, I wonder,    [00:11:21] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : you know, that too.    [00:11:23] Miko Lee: I’m wondering, you, you said that you feel like young women are timid today and I was like deep sigh of that because I feel like still really now with, I don’t know, I just, that’s that. Um, do you find that in the students that you’re working with now, that they’re still Asian, young women are still being timid?   [00:11:46] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : I mean, honestly, I don’t think that this is a uni. You know, this is certainly not true for all of the young women I encounter. No, that would be unfair, but I also feel as if the boldness that might be out there I feel is often highly curated. A lot of it is expressed through social media. And again, if we understand social media, the reality of Instagram is it’s never so instant. There is a much time and effort put into filters, into kind of visualizations aimed to draw a more attention. Really careful framings, and accompanying captions. I mean, I, you know, even for posts, ’cause I think a lot of, I think political conversation and discourse is happening, I would say on Instagram, I’ve decided to opt out of TikTok. I know that’s also a place, but that’s all to say that I think that these become a kind of shield or crutch. And then I’ve found and often been surprised. When I meet people in person, such a disconnect between a persona and, how one actually moves in the world with other people. And, that’s where I’ve seen some surprising timidness and caution. And it does worry me a bit. I mean, I, and ’cause I think that there are maybe competing notions. I think some people in my generation feel this generation to be very brave. And I’m not, you know, I hate to say this, I’m not a hundred percent certain that’s true sometimes, at least in sometimes the young people that I’ve encountered. I think social media has. I guess I’m not convinced that social media is the modality or the mechanism by which change will happen. And we make change in our relationships with actual, kind of, with everyday people. With people. And in relation to the land and kind of the resources of the earth. And yeah, that’s where I feel like that kind of boldness and bravery needs, you know, makes more lasting impact than the kind of illusory, fleeting, and very superficial for me trade and visuals and words over social media. So, yeah, I do, I do worry about it. I, I feel like I’ve seen it too often, a hesitance to speak up.   [00:14:32] Miko Lee: This is so interesting. I just did an interview uh, with NAKASEC about the new study that they released on Asian American men and the Manosphere, and how more and more Asian American men are being persuaded by right wing media in the Manosphere. But I wonder about Asian American women as you bring this up. And I, I think back to that many years ago, that documentary film that. Slaying the dragon. Do you remember that from years past    [00:14:58] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : that? Oh my gosh, yeah. It’s a while.    [00:15:00] Miko Lee: Yeah. That was all on the, you know, the on representation of Asian American women and that, and that was maybe 20 years ago. So I wonder how much that’s changed    [00:15:10] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : maybe more. Yeah,    [00:15:11] Miko Lee: maybe more. Right? So, but I wonder how that’s changed with, because that was pre-social media and if Asian American men are being pulled in the manosphere, what are Asian American women being pulled into?    [00:15:24] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Yeah, I do worry. I worry again, just, I mean, my goodness, you know, the proliferation of just the growth of the beauty industry.    [00:15:35] Miko Lee: Yeah.    [00:15:35] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Um, the casualness, by what I mean, just in terms of cosmetic surgery becoming so even normalized   [00:15:45] Miko Lee: for young people very young people .   [00:15:48] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Absolutely. Absolutely. And our kind of television series through streaming platforms you know, even movies. I mean, it’s, it’s clear that there are, you know, real investments in cosmetic surgery by many of the women that we hold up, across race. And yeah, this sort of, it’s just, it’s, I’ve been shocked by how, how, I mean, just the other day, I, I’m like a very loyal client. Well, when it comes to my hairstylist, I go, I travel two hours to Sacramento from our farm to get my hair cut every six months from one woman. I, I just, I could not believe just the conversations I was hearing women including Asian American women in the seats next to me around injections, fillers, I remember seeing flyers posted all around the salon. For a session being held by a, a cosmetic, I don’t even know the terms, but there’s now a proliferation of job titles even associated what is it? Medical aesthetician. But yeah, I, I do worry. Right. Trading in the visual. Maybe that’s why too, the podcast feels like a way where people can. Especially if I, you know, am in conversation with others or for myself even to just kind of show up without having to worry about you know, what I look like or what others look like. Or there’s, you know, people don’t have to worry about, the talking heads and kind of can pay attention more to the knowledges or the stories being shared. But I feel like that is a pull, I mean, if there was, if we’ve always, I think as as Asian American women, our bodies, right? Subject to just, these representations, right? The hypersexualization of Asian American women, which is really at the core of, I can recall of slaying the dragon. I think that has gotten worse. And we’re being more actively recruited into our own participation in this kind of hypersexualization on one hand, or being recruited into participating in these what are ultimately white aesthetics and remaking our bodies. To conform to notions of beauty and it’s all being cast as if it’s empowering and liberating somehow. And I, I’ve heard that and, and witnessed that, that somehow, no, these are not aesthetic choices that have to do with whiteness. I just wanna look pretty. Without any interrogation around what are the standards of beauty based on and even why, like, what is it about you know, desirability, youthfulness and all of that. That I think is definitely a co a concern I have and why I’ve pulled away from social media. I don’t know that I’ve looked on Instagram for I don’t know how many months. It’s been quite a bit of time, so much so that, Instagram is now sending me emails to remind me of all the messages and posts I’m missing. Facebook was doing that as well. But. I get troubled by the things that I am seeing. And I do worry for not just kind of younger generations of Asian American women, I think this is also a worry for all younger women of color.    [00:19:20] Miko Lee: It’s interesting they cast it almost as colorblindness in terms of the beauty standards, but it’s laced in white supremacy because the whole, the very basic of the standard of beauty is based in whiteness. That’s quite powerful and interesting.    [00:19:40] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Yeah. And it’s also deeply rooted in kind of capitalist consumption, right? The notion that the only thing that is of value is a thing that is new and novel. Anything else has zero value. And we’re seeing that right where women are terrified. Terrified of getting older. I mean, I was in conversation with a few women, you know, in, in my circles, not even 30. Who are being policed by their peers about their frown lines, watching how they express themselves because they’re approaching 30 and another woman in her early thirties you know, just commenting too that, well, the procedures now are so good. They’ve gotten so good at it that you can’t even tell. But you know, just this, that it’s happening at such a young age and, and you know, women, we already have to deal with all of these demands on our bodies, right? Some that are external, some that we internalize around, reproduction if we’re straight or if we desire children, even if we’re not, you know, just these pressures around that. And I mean, I feel like what woman is, especially younger women, you know, really, really worried about whether they’ve met certain milestones at at every age. I mean, I hear it with young women. Oh my god, I’m 25 now. I’m a quarter century. This is huge, right? Oh, I’m 30, three decades in, where am I at? So there are all these other demands around achievement, professional achievement. Scholastic achievement, nevermind, you know, your body, whether it comports to the thing that is di desirable and is doing the thing it needs to do, that it’s athletic and that it’s light, that it’s, it can make babies. So it just it’s a lot. And I feel like if we were went through it as, as younger women the intensity is, even greater. and I noticed it myself. It’s probably part of the reason why I’ve, I had to pull away from social media, you know, I’m 53, you know, and feeling like I don’t see many representations of myself too in social media. That is, I don’t know that it’s a space for me either. And you can’t help when you’re in these spaces. Even the most, kind of radical critical of us you know, can fall prey to, the intrusive thoughts of patriarchy around our bodies and aging and our utility. So yeah, it’s worrying, it’s really worrying to me.   [00:22:05] Miko Lee: So I wanna flip the switch on that and ask you, as a 53-year-old, what do you feel most powerful about?   [00:22:13] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : I personally have experienced so much personal loss of people, beloved people. I’ve also witnessed too many people who have not had the opportunity and privilege to reach this age. I think what makes me powerful or what, what makes me feel powerful, or maybe less the term, I don’t know if powerful is the term, but just I feel deep gratitude that my body has, allowed me to live in this form, to this age to have the range of experiences that I’ve been able to experience in this body. Looking at the world through these eyes experiencing it, you know, with this skin. And I just, that is, I guess, a source of power because of the wisdom that it offers. The I think empathy, you know, and compassion that it makes possible. Because you’ve experienced and witnessed so much. I think that there’s a lot that I have also, let go of. I think there were so many kind of insecurities that I think I struggled with as a younger woman that I no longer experience and that feels very empowering. To come to a place. And, and it really comes with life experience, I think. And that you are able to get perspective on things that might’ve, felt as personal failures in the past, but then you can look at differently as just lessons. Along this journey, in life. And I think I’ve just also been blessed with elder women in my life who you know, just are so, unapologetic about who they are, what they think, and how they move in the world. And so I have really great models. That make me excited about the prospects of continuing to, to get older and and being able to kind of experience and learn new things along the way. There’s a power there.    [00:24:26] Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing. Yeah. As somebody who’s 60 this year, I feel like it’s lessons that I’ve learned, but also I don’t care. I don’t care as much I don’t obsess over the little things. I just, and I say what I feel because why not? We’re at a phase in life where, you know, I’ve done a lot of things. I’ve experienced hardship, and I’m just gonna say how I feel where I’m at what’s going on right now? So there’s a freedom to that, that I think is very different from being young. What would you like your podcast audiences to understand?   [00:25:01] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Yeah. You know, I think my podcast audiences need to understand that I am really approaching the podcast from a place of embracing my role as a elder or a young elder. I think it’s a role that, I was struggling a bit with and again, I’m not immune to as much as I feel empowered by being older, I also am not immune to all of the, the messages around youthfulness and value that I think we’re constantly being barraged. But I do recognize that there is a really special role to be played by women in middle age, which I am. And I think that’s what I want audiences to understand, that I am coming into this podcast, doing this podcast from a very specific vantage point. A vantage point that offers insights that on, you know, and of course I’m coming in as me, right? Somebody who still considers herself a scholar, if not necessarily one based at a university. Somebody who’s been a really sort of radical thing and shift by becoming a farmer and doing land based work. That, yeah that they’re going to be hearing, a perspective, you know, from somebody who has been an organizer, continues to do that work, but is also experimenting and risk taking in different ways. They get the chances to hear from a yelder who’s lived a little. Who has a very unique perspective, not just from a particular vantage point in terms of age, but also somebody who’s you know, done the work, studied the thing when it comes to kind of the Asian American experience done the thing it, and when it comes to Asian American, organizing. It’s continued to grow by stepping away from previous ways of being, uh, by doing this work on our farm. You know, I feel like it’s a unique set of perspectives that I’m hoping can offer inspiration or lessons for the moment. But yeah.    [00:27:33] Miko Lee: So last time we talked was a few years ago and you were just getting your farm set up and now you actually have this whole farm. Can you share a little bit more about your connection to the land and what it’s like being a farmer now?   [00:27:48] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Yeah, no, thank you. You’re right. I recall, I think we had literally just moved in when I was in conversation with you, and now we’re at the start of season four. It has been an amazing journey. I’m actually right now and I hope to be able to talk about it on the podcast. I’ve come, I’m in the process of finishing, a book, reflecting on my experiences over the last four years in this transition from university professor to farmer. there’s so much that I’ve learned. One of the major things I’ve, learned especially as an organizer, to differently appreciate all of the metaphors we use in organizing. cause we use them a lot, right? How do we describe certain kinds of organizing? We, we describe it as grassroots. How do we talk about the ways we might be building our, you know, struggles of resistance? We think about ourselves as sowing seeds. More and more people talk about, you know, mycchorizal networks. There are all of these metaphors that proliferate when we’re thinking about, struggles for justice. And there is something that shifts when you do land-based work and really understand and learn at the knee of mother nature around all the things that are required for cultivating life, which for me, I think is what activism and, organizing really is about. You know, we live in a system that ultimately thrives on death. I mean, war, empire, capitalism, disposability, you know, all of that is, is a system that thrives actually on, on death. And I think that when we’re organizing as folks who are activists, social justice activists, ecological and environmental justice activists and organizers, what we’re doing is we’re in the business, so to speak, of cultivating life. But how best to learn about how to cultivate life, if not at the knee of of Mother Nature. And so I’ve learned a lot about that. Learned about you know, how long it can take. In fact for, plant sowing a seed a seed can only germinate, you know, and there’s the right kinds of conditions and even the right kind of conditions can’t be fully predicted. You tend to that ground, that soil anyhow, you know, seeds being so small and nearly invisible to the eye and yet, we know them to be there and we, we support their growth. Seeds when under the right conditions germinate and grow can become these healthy, mature plants. One singular plant can feed so many, I mean, all of those lessons when you understand them in deeply embodied ways, I think allow you to approach organizing and activism differently. I think especially now, there seems to be an urgency to everything. Everything feels urgent. Um. Something needs to be responded to, you know, immediately it feels like all the time. and that not responding somehow is being complacent or enabling. But I think what I’ve learned as a farmer is that transformation in life takes time and we need to tend to that. And I mean, I feel like I think organizers would benefit a lot from, doing land-based work. Not only because the earth needs us to do this work of regeneration and restoration, but I think we would have better perspective around, what liberation would look like and require, from these systems of domination and power if we, you know, humbled ourselves a bit and learned from. Mother Nature, and the ways that, you know, she’s endured through it all and, you know, adapted through it all. I think, I think there are important lessons there, but lessons that I think that really require a work of embodied learning and knowledge.    [00:31:56] Miko Lee: So you speak of your farm as this, as a place that’s cultivating growth, and can you talk a little bit more about that, cultivating the mind? Because I know you’re also doing work on your farm with organizers, with nonprofits, with students. So can you talk a little bit more about the cultivation of people on your farm?    [00:32:15] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, so much of what we do isn’t just about the food that we grow, which we do, and I shouldn’t name that, you know, a lot of. our aim with food growing is not just to feed, you know, sort of a community of people who’ve opted in to get food from us, which, you know, we do have a CSA, a Community sourced agricultural program, but we’re also working with native communities here to support in addressing their food needs. So that’s. Important, piece of what we do that I wanna name in terms of food and plant production. But yes, in terms of cultivating people, I think a lot of what we do here is about facilitating this reconnection to land. I grew up a very urban, suburban existence. I think it always as an organizer and activist, valued ecological and, environmental justice. But I don’t know that I centered it in the way that I do now, in part because I didn’t. Have a relationship with the land in the way that we do now. I really think that our work is to help cultivate that relationship. I think we need that relationship to fully appreciate what’s at stake when we talk about climate change. It’s one thing to kind of know the facts. It’s another thing to be in relation to the land, and I think it takes a certain set of conditions to be able to, to be in relation to the land. So yeah, we, we hold space for lots of organizations, educational institutions, nonprofits, community-based organizations, other folks, who also are feeling that there is a need to be in relation to the land. Not only to be in a relationship, but to be in a right relationship with the land. So we, we hold space for a lot of that. And of course that process is also deeply healing. There is something really healing about learning from the land. just understanding there’s something really magical like, for example, when you come out of winter and you start to see new growth, I think that cycle of growth offers a kind of hope and reassurance when we’re feeling especially despairing, which I think a lot of people feel tremendous despair now. And yet, you know, being bearing witness to that is it can be super just powerful and can kind of keep and sustain the fight.   [00:34:37] Miko Lee: And lastly, can you share more about your school for Liberating education?    [00:34:42] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Sure. So the School for Liberating Education is an online platform through which I share all of the ethnic studies knowledge that I was teaching at the university. Most recently at the University of California Davis, you know, always believed ethnic studies was never intended to be just another academic field like anthropology, sociology, political science. But that, it is a form of knowledge that is meant to raise our consciousness to inspire and to provide us real skillsets and pathways to taking that knowledge and doing the work of changing our world for the better. And so, you know, the School for Liberating Education I set up so that people can have access to that knowledge without having to go through. All of the, the, hoops that are required for, you know, getting into a four year university, even all of the kind of bureaucracy it takes to get even to a community college, which is not as easy as one would think. But also a very unapologetic, form of ethnic studies. I think part of what’s happening at colleges and universities now is, these are battlegrounds. The, right wing has taken it upon itself to really attack ethnic studies in various institutions. They’ve been very successful in gaining, Support. University administrations have also been very easily bent not only kind of grassroots right wing movements because they’re really organized at the grasses, but certainly the series of executive orders that Trump passed, you know, within days after inauguration. Effectively illegalizing ethnic studies and of course we know what he’s trying to do in terms of, the Department of Education and, its, effective dismantlement. But this is meant as a place to offer the knowledge that our forebearers and fought really hard for the university, but can’t really fully thrive there either. And so, I wanted to make sure that there was a place where this knowledge can be accessed, to anybody with the interest and desire.    [00:36:55] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for chatting with us today. I’m wondering if there’s anything you would like podcast listeners to prepare themselves for before they bust out Spotify and listen to Spitting Fire.   [00:37:10] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Well, it’s just, you know, to, you’re gonna get a lot of raw, unedited audio. And so, um, you’re gonna kind of get just, you know, as the, the host of the, show me in a very unedited, very unfiltered form, which can be, I hope enjoyable for folks. But, you know, I think people will, will learn a lot, and a lot of the topics are rooted in the things that I care about. Certainly social justice issues certainly even, you know, the work we’re doing at the farm. So, you know, I, I mean, it’s broadly, uh, the podcast is around social and ecological justice. But very much from the lens of somebody who, again, is a yelder, somebody who’s taught ethnic studies, continues to teach, although not at the university. Um, somebody who does the work of kind of social and ecological justice organizing and is doing land-based work. So, you’re getting all of the, the things that connect to all of the ways that I, I’m moving in the world right now.    [00:38:15] Miko Lee: Thank you so much Dr. Robyn for joining us today on Apex Express.   [00:38:20] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Thank you so much again for having me.   [00:38:38] Welcome everybody, to Resistance, Defiant Love, and Radical Care. Today we are launching, uh, the pre-registration for my new activism course, my course on Asian American activism, and it will be drawing on my book, co-edited with Diane Fujino, uh, Professor Diane Fujino, entitled Contemporary Asian American Activism: Building Movements for Liberation.   [00:39:09] I’m really, really excited that the book is coming out, but probably even more excited that I’ll be able to launch a mini course that draws from that book, as well as other work on Asian American activism, and that I’ll be able to offer a mini course that really looks at Asian American activism in the coming months.   [00:39:30] And I’m very, very, very, very pleased to be joined by Artnelson Concordia. Artnelson and I actually hopped on earlier and we went back to, to just recollect when we met and how long ago, and I’ll talk about that in a moment. But, um, oh, I guess I might as well just say, Art and I have known each other for exa- almost exactly half of our lives.   [00:39:54] Um- So we first met when we were only 12. Just kidding. We met when we were 25 years old. We, uh, so that was half of our lives. You do the math. Um, and, uh, it, it’s just so wonderful, uh, to, to be able to reconnect, uh, with Artnelson in this way. But we go back, and as we’ll talk about later on, we go back, um, 25 years ago, uh, where we, when we first met, uh, through, uh, our work, uh, in, in activist spaces.   [00:40:27] But Artnelson Concordia was born and raised in the Echo Park neighborhood of Los Angeles. The son of working class Filipino immigrants, he earned BAs in political science and history at the University of California in Los Angeles, so UCLA. Artnelson is a longtime educator who got his start in San Francisco and was a founding teacher of the San Francisco Unified School District’s Ethnic Studies program that was the focus of a 2014 Stanford University study that highlighted the academic benefits of the district’s ninth grade ethnic studies course.   [00:41:02] That’s Artnelson. Currently, he coordinates Santa Barbara Unified School District’s ethnic studies program. Artnelson is the father of four Brown boys, four beautiful Brown boys, and is in cahoots with his wife to raise them to have deep knowledge and love of self and community, as well as to be active disruptors of the white supremacist, patriarchal, heteronormative, imperialist hegemony.   [00:41:29] Yeah. He and his family have the great privilege to live in the beautiful town of Oxnard, California, which is unceded Chumash territory. And this fall marks the beginning of his 23rd year in education. And as I was saying before, Art and I go way, way back. We met right after we had both graduated from college.   [00:41:52] And yeah, as… Art and I are here to talk story a little bit about our shared activist path, because really, uh, it ma- it seems it’s so appropriate to talk about our shared path as activists and educators because this pivot for me to offering, uh, courses through the School for Liberating Education has everything to do with my activism and everything to do with my deep, deep belief that education, uh, and a critical education, uh, can be so vital for, uh, movement building, for building the world that we want.   [00:42:29] So I’m gonna just hand it over to you, Art. And we can just start. But it’s so great to see you and have this chance to chat.    [00:42:37] Artnelson Concordia: Right on. What a, what an introduction, uh, hearing that coming from you. Um, and- Reflecting on the time and how quickly that really does fly. And I think it’s actually more than 25.   [00:42:50] We’ve known each other more than 25 years. Um, and I think, yeah, that’s more than half of our lives. But I think the moment that we, we met each other, we were already on our journey to, to really committing ourselves to figuring out, you know, what the hell is going on with this world. I mean, beginning with our own lived experiences and what’s, what was happening with our communities.   [00:43:18] Um, but yeah, education has always been central, and I think my, my path to really focusing in on that was in, in organizing spaces before I became a teacher. It was so key in bringing people to to support and be a part of whatever issue. Like, it was, well, how do we move people? Well, w- we tell them the truth.   [00:43:47] We, we tell them the… an all-rounded kind of breakdown of how it will impact them and why they should get involved. And the, the, the think, um, really that is, was my introduction to organizing. Um, I think in community college, uh, I got to meet, um, a long time Filipino American, uh, organizer-activist, Royal Morales, was really my first introduction to Filipino American history and identity.   [00:44:23] And from there, it just really took off. Like, so much of the suffering, struggling, and questions I had about my own life was answered. I mean, of course over time, but it kept, it kept, it kept, uh, bringing me along, bringing me along, and I was hooked. I was hooked after that. Um, yeah, the power of education to really transform lives is, has been a theme throughout.   [00:44:53] Uh, and I’m sure for you as well. I, I- Yeah … the, the spaces that we, we shared were always about, like, getting to root problems and how everything is related inside.    [00:45:06] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Yeah. No, absolutely. It’s funny, I was just thinking, I don’t… You know, I think we might have first encountered each other indirectly around the, the fight against Proposition 209.   [00:45:19] Oh. Uh, you know, right? And maybe even before that, around Proposition 187. 187. Y- yeah. And so for people who don’t know, and actually I end up writing… I ended up writing a chapter on, uh, student organizing, specifically around 187 and 209, in this book. So, you know, the book itself, um, so, you know, Professor Fujino, who happened to, happened to be my professor as an undergrad, so she’s now my collaborator.   [00:45:47] But, um, Diane, uh, and I kind of pulled a, a whole range of organizers together to contribute to this anthology, but I also ended up contributing a separate chapter to it, and it was a reflection on the ’90s, and specifically our campus organizing across the UC system- Mm-hmm … around first 187 and 209. And for people who aren’t familiar with it, you know, 187 was this, uh, this terrible, um, voter initiative that ended up being passed by the state of California that would essentially criminalize, um, undocumented Californians.   [00:46:24] And not just that, it was really going to, uh, m- make- teachers and, uh, and social workers and anybody who worked for the state of California stand in as border agents.    [00:46:37] Artnelson Concordia: Right. ‘   [00:46:38] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Cause basically it would be their, their responsibility as employees of the state of California to report on anybody seeking out service or that they’re encountering in the space of their jobs, to report them if they were, if, if they suspected that these individuals, if they suspected these individuals- Yeah, yeah [00:46:58] were, um, undocumented. And so, you know, uh, Art and I and so many other UC students, uh, were, you know, going, um, were organizing in, in, in partnership with community organizations to, of course, try to stop Californians from, from, from voting for 187. W- they did, and of course that ended up not becoming law because it got, you know, challenged in, in the courts.   [00:47:24] Right. But nevertheless, we were part of the resistance movement. And then, uh, after 187 was Proposition 209, which essentially eliminated affirmative action programs, um, in, in, uh, the University of California system. And, you know, I know, you know, that was also something that was also meaningful for, for us.    [00:47:45] Artnelson Concordia: Yeah.    [00:47:45] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : You know, uh, as, as, as young people who were also very much recipients of affirmative action programs. Yeah. Um, some of our ethnic studies knowledge was not even necessarily coming through ethnic studies courses, but oftentimes through the counselors and, and other staff who worked in these affirmative action programs.   [00:48:06] And so, you know, that was, that was going to happen. Right. And it did, right? Had such a deep impact on us. Yeah. And we knew that, um, by making affirmative action, um, by eliminating affirmative action, it was going to have a major impact. Which it did, right? Mm-hmm. The Filipino, at least for Filipino Americans, our numbers at the UC system plum- plummeted after that.   [00:48:25] Plummeted. But I think that’s when we first met, and then, but it was really afterwards where, where we really connected more, right? When- Hmm … um, I think you and I both, because we, we, uh, found ourselves, uh, with the, the, the, the opportunity to connect with, uh, people who were really active in the anti-martial ma- law, the anti-martial law movement, right?   [00:48:48] Um, for both of us. Yeah,    [00:48:49] Artnelson Concordia: in the Philippines. Yeah.    [00:48:50] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Yeah. They were people who, uh, were already active in, um, the movement against the dictatorship- had come to the United States fleeing the tyranny of the Marcos dictatorship. Mm-hmm. And then were really responsible in, uh, growing the, uh, anti-martial law movement in the US, and I think, you know, at the time we met, of course martial law had ended, but, but the conditions in the Philippines hadn’t changed. Still haven’t changed.    [00:49:17] Artnelson Concordia: Yeah.    [00:49:17] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : And so our elders saw us, we saw them, right? I think. I mean, I can’t even remember how I    [00:49:24] Artnelson Concordia: first met some of them. Looking for each other, I really feel.   [00:49:25] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : I think, you know, we, we end up gravitating to the same- Yeah … spaces, right? And we knew that that was something, you know, we wanted to be part of. T- maybe tell me about your story. How did you kind of find your way into that work and, and how did it resonate with you? But I know that that was really where we built together was- yeah … in the work around the Filipino, um, you know, liberation struggle.   [00:49:47] Artnelson Concordia: Yeah. Our, our paths definitely, um, crossed then, and my, my journey to that point really was through the Black liberation movement- Yeah where I, in undergrad, um, was exposed to the history of the Panthers, and I… And it was immediate, like in terms of the truth they were telling and how they resonated with me. I just swallowed text after text after text. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, To Die for the People, uh, uh, Huey’s Revolutionary Suicide, Elaine Brown’s, uh, Taste of Power- Mm-hmm   [00:50:25] Bobby Se- Seize the Time. I, I, I was so, um, I don’t know, kind of- Absolutely, like, fascinated and inspired and wanting to find, well, what’s the equivalent for, for Filipinos? Yes. And that was, that of course leads me from, um, Uncle Roy or Royal Morales, who’s really talking about Filipino-American activism in History.   [00:50:55] Mm-hmm. And I got a lot of the really incredible, um, participation and organizing with the farm workers, but it kind of just would stop, and I, and I was curious about, well, what is existing now? And it was my meeting, um, it was a, a brother mentor, Ed- Edwin Ha- Habaquan. Edwin. And he, uh- I went with Edwin at the same time.   [00:51:25] Yeah. He was the, the founder of this Filipino apparel company, right? Tribal Pinoy. Oh my gosh. And I, um, I worked for the Filipino American newspaper for Samahang Pilipino at UCLA, Tan- Tanawin, and I only wrote one, maybe, maybe two articles. But the one article I, I, I very much remember, and I, I, I need to go find that article now, was an interview with Edwin, um, about Filipino-American activism. And he was like, “Look, it didn’t just end with the farm workers. It continues today through this national liberation movement in the Philippines.”   [00:52:15] Ayame Keane-Lee: You just listened to a clip from Spitting Fire: Doktora Robyn Speaks from tonight’s guest, Dr. Robyn Rodriguez. This episode is called Resistance, Defiant Love, and Radical Care: Asian American Activism Course Launch with Artnelson Concordia. You can check it out in our show notes. Thank you so much for listening   [00:52:36] Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night The post APEX Express – 6.25.26 – Spitting Fire: Doktora Robyn Speaks appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 6.18.26 Talk Story with Thao Nguyen 18.06.2026 59мин

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight on Apex Express, Host Miko Lee talk story with singer-songwriter Thao Nguyen.  Hear about her new album Fossil,  her short documentary, and about her artistic inspirations. Thao’s tour starts this week in North Carolina, so listen in to hear from the brilliant Thao, and then check out her website to catch a live show.   SHOW TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.   [00:00:35] Miko Lee: Tonight on Apex Express, we talk story with singer-songwriter Thao Nguyen. Join me, your host, Miko Lee, as I talk with this multi-hyphenated artist. We get to hear about her new album, chat about her short documentary, and hear about her artistic inspirations. Thao’s tour starts this week in North Carolina, so listen in to hear from the brilliant Thao, and then check out her website to catch a live show.   [00:01:05] Ayame Keane-Lee: In today’s show, you’ll be listening to some songs from Thao & The Get Down Stay Down’s 2020 album, Temple. First off, let’s listen to “Pure Cinema.”   MUSIC     [00:05:44] That was “Pure Cinema” by today’s guest, Thao Nguyen. Let’s get to the interview.   [00:05:50] Miko Lee: Welcome  Thao Nguyen to Apex Express.    [00:05:54] Thao Nguyen: Thank you. I’m so happy to be here.    [00:05:57] Miko Lee: I love talking with creative people and you’re such an amazingly talented singer and songwriter and imagination creator. I’m wanna start with the first question I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   [00:06:16] Thao Nguyen: Who are my people? Some of them include the family I was born into. I’m from Virginia. I was born and raised in Virginia. but I’m the daughter of Vietnamese refugees of war. And, I moved out to the Bay in 2006 after my first US tour. And, I’m so fortunate to have such a robust community here in the bay and all of my chosen family here.   [00:06:40] Miko Lee: And what legacy do you carry with you?    [00:06:43] Thao Nguyen: What legacy? I think the legacy I prioritize. I think, you know, [laughs] we inherit a lot and as time goes on and we get older, we realize everything is finite and you have to choose which legacies you choose to continue, and perpetuate and honor and what you have to leave by the wayside. And so the things I choose to continue and celebrate are that of a real ability to be very present and in the moment and available to joy and I think the people I come from are really good at metabolizing joy because they know the flip side of it so well.    [00:07:23] Miko Lee: Ooh, that’s so interesting. Can you speak more about what it means to metabolize joy?    [00:07:30] Thao Nguyen: [Laughs] uh, an ongoing practice? I think it is to be truly present and I believe, of course gratitude goes a long way, but I to fully metabolize it is to allow yourself to feel embodied in it. And, you know, there’s more somatic practice I think that to actually feel it course through your body, you are allowing it, you’re honoring it as completely as possible. And, do you have to acknowledge that it’s happening as it’s happening? You know, I think that’s having true presence with it.   [00:08:08] Miko Lee: Can you roll back with me in time and talk about your earliest childhood memories of being a singer or songwriting? What came first?    [00:08:18] Thao Nguyen: I loved music from a very early age, but I didn’t have a lot of access to it, to making it, it was more as a listener. The soundscape that I grew up with, there was a series called Paris by Night, which probably you’ve heard of within Vietnamese diaspora, uh, community and Culture. And it was this variety show that was, created by, people who had to flee Vietnam. And originally it was in Paris and it showcased A lot of singers and performers, who had fled, either before, during, or right after the fall of Saigon. And, it was this one gathering wherein. entertainers from the different generations, from my grandmother’s generation, from my parents were able to coalesce and exist together. And there was just this sampler platter of a lot of different sonic influences. And then you had the younger generation, which was reinterpreting what American pop music was at the time. So you’d have my grandmother who [sang] cải lương which was this incredibly, it’s like, almost like folk operatic, very dramatic, theatrical singing with a lot of pitch bending and, which I didn’t understand that I was absorbing it in such a way that I would recreate it later on in my playing, but I would go on to credit it to being from Virginia and saying it was more of like an Appalachian influence, which it was as well. But the origins, the true origins were within my soundscape before I understood what that was. You know, so you have that and then you have, an artist named Lynette who’s. basically in reinterpreting, like the latest Madonna song and has a cone bra on, so everyone’s existing act after act in the same, um, sorry for that ramble. Did I answer that question?    [00:10:13] Miko Lee: Yeah. Uh, I, so what was, do you remember the age or you just grew up hearing all these different kinds of sounds?    [00:10:20] Thao Nguyen: I mean, that was from before I knew what age I was, you know, that was just like, and that was such, um. For the community and within my family it was such an event every time one of these, you know, double VHS things were issued that people would be making copies, someone would drop it off at the house. You know, there, there was always one or two in circulation, but it was this. Event that you’d,    [00:10:43] Miko Lee: are these like bootleg copies?    [00:10:45] Thao Nguyen: Yeah, there’s like, wow, there’s bootleg. There’s also, there was one book in music store in Eden Shopping Center, which was like the hub of, of the Vietnamese community in, in, uh, Northern Virginia. And so someone would buy the original and then go and bootleg it. You don’t know how you ended up with what, but just like they would drop off some citrus and and Hennessy or whatever, and then the Paris By Night thing. And um,    [00:11:11] Miko Lee: I love that the combo citrus, Hennessy and some music.   [00:11:16] Thao Nguyen: Everything is a digestif, you know? And, um, so I would have that. But then of course, I, you know, I, I listened to the radio. That was what, that was my main resource and I listened to the oldie station the most, and I loved Motown. And I remember, in this I was like five or six, we had these large speakers that’s sat on the floor either side of, of this cassette deck, radio unit. And I would lay down and, every time Smokey Robinson came on, “You really got a hold of me” that was like my favorite song and I would tape it and then so either I would listen to it live or I would play the cassette and I would just lay down and get as close to the speakers as I could. But at that point, I hadn’t seen who Smokey Robinson was, and I imagined, because I also am a child of eighties and nineties. I imagined it was Crystal who was Roseanne’s best friend from the Roseanne show. You know, I didn’t know anything, but I felt all of it.    [00:12:20] Miko Lee: Wow. Yeah. I love that. So, I love that. And I was really wondering, I heard this story about you, that you actually did a rap for on Charlotte’s Web when you were in elementary school.   [00:12:33] Thao Nguyen: Okay. Okay. This is a deep cut. You’ve done some research.    [00:12:39] Miko Lee: Tell me about how that came to be. So you must have been introduced to rap pretty young to be doing that.    [00:12:44] Thao Nguyen: Oh, absolutely. This, so this was another, and this, I’m so glad you brought that up, because all of this is, every genre, every kind of music I, at this point is so vital to me, and it actually goes on to reflect the kind of music I make. And so I have an older brother who’s almost eight years older, and around this same time, he’s a huge hip hop fan, or that’s one of the things he loves, he loves like Duran Duran and like the Fat Boys, you know? And , when I saved money, the first cassette I ever bought was Salt-n-Pepa. And I, yeah, so I was listento the Fat Boys and Queen Latifah. And I loved, I loved every, I loved to hear the flow, the different cadences and in third grade I was voted best rapper. This, and, you know, not coincidentally. This is the year I, I do the book report, the Charlotte’s Web, you know, and they gave me the option. You can either write it or you can write a song or whatever. And so I wrote a rap about Charlotte’s Web, but I was too shy. I had recorded it and just played it in my presentation. I didn’t perform it live.    [00:13:51] Miko Lee: And how was it received?    [00:13:54] Thao Nguyen: I mean, I can still hear the roar. yeah, everyone, [laughs] I think the teachers    [00:14:01] Miko Lee: The crowd roared. The third graders roared.    [00:14:03] Thao Nguyen: Yeah. I mean, everyone’s standing on their desks. It’s rickety, you know, teachers are worried about child safety, it doesn’t matter. They’re like, Encore. I’m like, I don’t have anything else. Uh, you know, uh,   [00:14:15] Miko Lee: Wait for real?   [00:14:17] Thao Nguyen: No, no. [laughs] the teachers thought it was cute. Probably the kids thought it was funny. I actually don’t know because I was so nervous I even pressing play. I was so nervous. I don’t know if I registered what, how it was received.    [00:14:34] Miko Lee: That’s so sweet. Given your eclectic music knowledge and the music that was around you at the time as a musician, now you’ve been described with so many different categories, country tinge, indie folk, pop, blues. How would you describe your music?  [00:14:54] Thao Nguyen: I would describe it as. What’s embarrassing is I’ve been doing this a long time now and I’ve never figured out a way to describe it. I would, I, I generally just say it’s, you know, it’s under the umbrella of indie rock, but influenced by jazz and hip hop. And because I learned to play guitar by picking out country blues songs. And because I grew up in Virginia, there, there are these, like old time, Country blues picking patterns that I’ve used. I, you know, it’s, yeah. So that, I’ve never figured out a way to say it succinctly and I continue    [00:15:29] Miko Lee: and you don’t need to. That’s okay.    [00:15:31] Thao Nguyen: Thank you.    [00:15:31] Miko Lee: Is there a big Vietnamese population in Virginia?    [00:15:35] Thao Nguyen: Yeah, I, I think there is a very healthy population there. And it was one of the first places that people were settling when they were being resettled. And my parents met, in a refugee camp in Guam. And then they were sent to Arkansas. And then from there sponsored out to North Carolina. And then from there of a few friends that they had made, had found work with Metro, which is the public transportation train system in DC and found my dad work there. So that’s why people resettle, that’s why we ended up in Virginia.    [00:16:16] Miko Lee: So Thao & The Get Down Stay Down you released five studio albums and now you’re working primarily as a solo artist. Right?    [00:16:25] Thao Nguyen: Yes. Yeah. I will say I still work record and perform with a band. And a lot of the people who worked and performed with me in that iteration are still with me. it was more I wanted to, just use my name and move beyond what the get down stay down was, which I was never really sure. With things that you choose when you’re 22. As time goes, you know, it starts to, and you’re lucky if you can kind of shed things and not, not stay beholden too much.   [00:16:57] Miko Lee: Ah, what have you learned to shed?   [00:17:02] Thao Nguyen: Oh my gosh. Thankfully a great deal and it’s an ongoing exercise, but. I used to be so much heavier with the weight of what I thought a serious artist was what I thought a serious songwriter should be, who I thought, where I thought my, you know, different benchmarks of what success were. What I should be making versus what people wanted to hear versus what I wanted to hear. I actually never I wasn’t always all the way sure about what I wanted. You know, I, I think a lot of people encounter that, but I’ve thankfully been able to shed as much as I can. It’s an ongoing practice, but I, you know, one thing it. Is that I used to think, I can’t believe I’ve been doing this this long. And it’s, not necessarily, I didn’t understand what I was working towards, but only that I had not gotten there yet. And then, you know, I think pandemic and on, I’ve been just so and as I get older, the transition into being so sincerely grateful that I’m still here and I get to do this. this is what my job is, and however I can, and whatever I can do to sustain, being able to, to do this for my livelihood and maintain my integrity within it is the greatest gift. So as when I made that switch a a lot of things, a lot of the darkness left me.    [00:18:39] Miko Lee: Oh, that’s beautiful. Thank you for sharing.   [00:18:42] Ayame Keane-Lee: Next, let’s listen to Temple, the first track off of Thao’s album of the same name.   MUSIC   [00:22:56] That was Temple by Thao and the Get Down Stay Down. Back to her interview with Miko.   [00:23:01] Miko Lee: I’m wondering if you could talk a little bit about the 2017 documentary Nobody Dies, a film about a musician, her mom in Vietnam. How did that, and that’s a documentary that follows you and your mom as you go to Vietnam. I’m wondering how that project came about.  [00:23:17] Thao Nguyen: Yes, I’m happy to tell you about it. in 2015 I was invited by concert promoters in conjunction with the US Embassy based in Hanoi, to come perform for the, I guess at that point it was the 25th anniversary of the normalization of relations between the US and Vietnam, and I was able to bring my band and I was able to bring my mom, and she hadn’t been back in 43 years, and she used to work for the South Vietnamese embassy and was stationed in Lao, when Saigon fell. So she actually left Vietnam in 73, assuming she would go back after her time abroad and then was never able to return. So I was able to bring her, the struggle was would she actually come, you know, and we had, I had, a bear of the time initially convincing her it would be okay. And, it was like, just begging her to come. She’s like freaking out. She hangs up on me. I call back. She hangs up. You know, it was a back and forth that I’m trying to convince her of things that I’m not sure of where she’s like, I’m still on a list. I’m like, no, you’re not. But I don’t know that, you know who, how would I know that? But I told her she wasn’t on the list. Anyway, my, a friend of mine who’s a filmmaker, as this all was happening, he asked if he could come along and document all of it. And he and, his DP traveled with us and it was an incredibly intense trip, and it was beautiful and I am so glad it was documented. And then somewhere along the way I had a performance and, this was all in editing. And then I ran into Don Young at CAAM Center for Asian American Media. Oh, I know what it was. It was something for Sundance and Don Young and I were just in the same shuttle going to the airport and we were talking and I told him a little bit about this and then I sent him some footage and you know, and then CAAM and PBS were gracious enough to co-produce and, Make it so it could be, you know, a a half hour documentary that aired on PBS. Um,    [00:25:21] Miko Lee: so that that was on a bus ride.    [00:25:23] Thao Nguyen: That was on an airport shuttle.    [00:25:25] Miko Lee: Airport shuttle. I love it.    [00:25:26] Thao Nguyen: Yeah [laughs].    [00:25:28] Miko Lee: So was it hard to convince your mom, I know it was hard to convince her to go to Vietnam. Was it hard to convince her also then to be on film? What was her response to that?    [00:25:37] Thao Nguyen: Well, luckily for all of us, my mom loves to be on film and is, um, a total flirt and ham and. Oh,    [00:25:48] Miko Lee: so that was a bonus. That was like a,    [00:25:49] Thao Nguyen: that was a bonus. The camera loves her. As did the film director, my friend Todd, she loved it. And she just, she comes alive and she’s a true performer. And, it was really beautiful to see her in this element that I, I didn’t know if I’d ever, I actually. Never thought I’d get to see her this way. You know, I grew up, both my brother and I grew up translating for her, it is sort of at every, at every level. And, we’d go out to restaurants and it’s not that she, you know, it’s like she would get shy and then it would just easier, it always just became easier if we just did it for her. But, so we’d order for restaurants and, and to see her. not to say that she doesn’t I mean, she was a small business owner. She owned a laundromat, dry cleaners in Virginia and totally is the reason why everybody is alive, you know? But, to see her move so seamlessly and easily, I’m sorry, it’s emotional in the world was this, such a gift I didn’t know I’d get. And, You see her haggling with people, you know, and, and she’s directing as she’s pointing out. Yeah. It was just a really, no matter how long someone has been away from the place they were born, you know, to see them back there is, um, it was, yeah, it was just such a beautiful gift and I’m glad we have it on film.   [00:27:17] Miko Lee: Did you discuss that with your mom? How different that was for you to see her in a different way?    [00:27:22] Thao Nguyen: You know, not, not, um, not directly. I’ve written about it, but I’ve not, we don’t have the kind of, Yeah. That, that’s never come up in those ways. You know, we talk a lot. I basically, I try to call her at least, uh, almost every day, just ’cause she lives across the country. So I wanna just be sure that, you know, I’m just doing these like, casual wellness checks, but we don’t often get into those more philosophical conversations. Um, but she did, you know, the, the song Temple, Which would become the lead single of the album Temple was, inspired by this moment of candor that I had never experienced before and I would never experience again. It happened one night when we were in Vietnam and she just said outta nowhere. You have to understand what freedom is and you have to understand why a million people would risk their lives at sea, and I can’t. I can’t teach you that. I can’t help you with it. You have to know for yourself. And that’s what became, the song Temple where wherein she’s speaking to me about her life before, during, and after war.   [00:28:35] Miko Lee: That’s so powerful. Thank you for sharing. I, I appreciate that about your music, the personal, visions and dreams and pain that you experience putting that in. Is there another song of yours that really stands out to you?    [00:28:51] Thao Nguyen: Another one. Aside from that?    [00:28:53] Miko Lee: Aside from that.    [00:28:54] Thao Nguyen: There’s. You know, yes, there’s a, there’s definitely a few from this new album that is, that I just finished and it’s releasing in September. From that same album Temple there’s, the song Marrow. there’s a few. That album is as much, it was, it was this, I just had this, I knew that I had to make it both about, what my Vietnamese identity is and what it is to be queer in Vietnamese and stay in the culture, which is not something that I thought I could do. So yeah, I would say both Temple and Marrow encapsulate, this effort to fully align myself in ways that I hadn’t been able to.    [00:29:40] Miko Lee: And what is Marrow about?    [00:29:42] Thao Nguyen: Marrow is about what it means to fully accept yourself so that you could offer yourself to the rest of your life. You know, it’s, it’s like.   [00:29:54] Miko Lee: That’s all.   [00:29:56] Thao Nguyen: That’s all. And it’s, and it was against the backdrop of getting married. but it was more about me coming to terms with not even coming to terms, like even that language is so, disparaging. It’s, it was just about claiming myself and saying to my family, I need to be, you know, I, I need to be my full self and I believe I can be with you still. But you know, the lines are, It’s so funny. I sing it all the time and I can’t do that. The line I’m thinking of in particular is, at that point I’m apologizing to my partner at the time and saying, you know, I am basically, I couldn’t claim us because of this barrier, but I’m sorry to you and I’m sorry to me, and the, you know. I have grief in my marrow. Will you marry me still? So is it, that’s a roundabout way of explaining what that, what that song is.   [00:30:54] MUSIC    [00:34:24] Ayame Keane-Lee: You just listened to “Marrow” by tonight’s guest, Thao Nguyen.    [00:34:28] Miko Lee: You talk about Temple and how that was based on this trip you took in 2015, right? 2016. How long does it generally take you for a song to germinate?    [00:34:41] Thao Nguyen: You know, that one, um, that’s, that is an example of a, a longer, uh, gestation period because it was such an intense, because Vietnam was such an intense time. Uh, it was months, maybe it was two years before I could even think about it, honestly. And there are other things that happen. I wish things happened more instantaneously. It’s very rare that a whole song will just present itself. You know, temple, that song in particular, when I started writing it, it took maybe two hours, but it took me two years to get to the point where I could    [00:35:20] Miko Lee: And it just came to you in two hours?   [00:35:22] Thao Nguyen: Yeah. It just came, just the vision. All those, the imagery, everything that I’d wanted to say. It just, I understood how. To present it. And I think I had tried in other forms over that time, but it just wasn’t ready. Other songs, um, yeah, anywhere from it’s, it’s like the chorus or a hook or a verse will come very quickly, and then the time, the more arduous stuff is building around it to make sure that it, it, you know, it’s properly bolstered. Like I, if I believe in a hook, then I’ll, I’ll try to build the house around it.    [00:36:02] Miko Lee: And how, what do you do? Do you just record it straight up right when you get the hook, like on a small device or what’s your process?    [00:36:09] Thao Nguyen: It um, typically I’m playing an instrument, either guitar or piano or I’ve written, you know, sometimes I get bored, I write on other instruments, but primarily it’s guitar, piano, and, um. It’ll be the melodic hook only on the instrument, and then I’ll put words. But yeah, it’s, I, I just use voice memos and then as I’m building it, then I’ll move into pro tools and, and, and record a more proper demo.    [00:36:40] Miko Lee: And do you have a set working process or you just vibe it whenever you’re feeling it? And I ask because I always ask this of artists. Because I think it’s so interesting, what is the discipline it takes for your art form? And I remember I interviewed Isabel Allende years ago and she said, yes, I make myself go in my studio at 8:00 AM every day. And even if I can’t write, I sit there from this time to this time. So what, what is your process like? Or do you have a set process?    [00:37:05] Thao Nguyen: Yes. Absolutely. And it’s taken me so many years to figure out what my set process is and to have the discipline to really, really, um, I do believe it is a daily practice and it is a daily discipline and I’m so afraid of what happens when I slip out of it because I know what happens. I’ve tumbled into this very dark, deep well of despair and I don’t know. You, you start to question what your whole purpose is. It gets bad very quickly, right? So I’m always trying to stay on the side of not completely sliding down. Not to say it isn’t very joyful and I mean this a very lucky position to be in. One of the things that’s been going on for the last few years is I have multiple projects going on at once and I do have to figure out, I had an, um, the album is just finished thankfully, but I am developing a musical and I’m also writing a book. And so I have to figure out, I divvy out the days. I would like to say that I can work on all three in one day, not possible. So I have to choose, um. And it’s always, the morning time is the best for generating something from nothing. And then I try not to edit or revise or question it until that afternoon or later. Actually, you don’t question it within that same day. Like the main, I think the main priority for me is maintaining momentum and optimism. So I need to do whatever it is to thwart whatever part of me is trying to take it down. Um, so I’ll work in the morning for a few hours and then leave it, you know, and as writers say, leave it no matter if it’s songwriting or whatever, like leave it at a place where you, when you start again, you feel good about it and you know what the next step is.   [00:39:08] Miko Lee: Do you have a set time? It’s like just the morning from this time to this time. And then do you say musical today? Book today. Album today. How do you do that?    [00:39:17] Thao Nguyen: Well, it depends on the deadlines.    [00:39:21] Miko Lee: Of course.    [00:39:22] Thao Nguyen: I, yeah, I, I work to the deadline. ’cause there’s always, thankfully, there’s always at least one happening and yeah, I. I love this by the way, because I actually, when I’m stuck, I just look up different routines for writers and artists. It’s like my favorite thing to do. So I love to participate in this conversation. Um, but I wake up, I meditate, I try to do a little stretching, and then I do a walk. It depends on where I’m working. Okay? Here’s the thing. If I’m working on music, I have to work at home. If I can write, then I’m gonna go to a coffee shop or the library or my friends just opened up local economy, uh, that, that, so I’ve been going there and because writing is so lonely and miserable that I cannot be in the house, I, I, there’s no way I have to be in public. Um, and just at least feeling the energy of other life    [00:40:18] Miko Lee: With songwriting also?    [00:40:19] Thao Nguyen: With songwriting, I have to be home ’cause I’m making all this noise. So what? Yeah, with songwriting I’ll be at home, but that’s way less miserable ’cause I can just play guitar or piano or something and then, or I’ll be in studio with my friends that I’m making the album with. Um, now that I’ve finished the album and I’m moving and I’m more squarely in the book writing, um, I try to do two hours. You know, not, not solid. I will try, like, for a while, um, I was doing the timer with the, you know, 25 minutes at a time. And then that wasn’t, I wasn’t getting enough done and then, yeah, and then more than two hours. I, I just can’t, it’s not sustainable. Um, for me, I feel like I get a solid hour to two. Or maybe you hit like a two page, two or three page, um, quota or something, and then just don’t even look at it and then go, and then I go exercise and I need to be outside and, or go on a hike or something.    [00:41:34] Miko Lee: Okay. Tell us about this book. What is it about, what’s the timeline? No pressure.    [00:41:41] Thao Nguyen: I would love to tell you what it was about, if I knew better. Um, what it was. It’s, it’s a collection of essays and I’m calling it, so it’s, it’s, uh, it’ll be out on Gray Wolf, um, into, in spring of 27. And so it is due relatively soon ’cause they, it’s a longer lead time. I’m calling it a community memoir, um, because it’s a collection of essays from different, it’s all through my lens, but it’s to celebrate these characters that I grew up with in Foster Virginia, within my family, within the community that I, they’re so vivid to me and. Their stories. The quieter sides, the quieter moments of what it means to live in diaspora or what I wanna capture. And also what, you know, part of it is what shaped my musical life. And, and there are all these influences and elements that I, that I just wanted to celebrate and honor and. These people that I remember, but I, I’m, we’re all, you know, I’m, I’m turning 42. I’m like, I, we’re close to lo I’m close to losing the Hi-Fi detail of them, you know, and, and I don’t know who else, is in a position to capture it. You know, and, and also it’s this amazing opportunity to talk to my mom’s, brothers and sisters. You know, there are tales. There’s, of course, you grow up with, I think it’s really different to, I was raised, you know, in Virginia by my, primarily by my mom. My grandmother and my aunt didn’t come till I was five, but the stories that I heard. Mostly were from my mom who fled in, who left in 73, and her experience is so different than my grandmother, my aunt, all of my mom’s siblings who stayed, who had to stay through the fall and, and live in a different regime, you know?    And so to get to hear those stories of just like the more quotidian indignities of what is life after you’ve lost your. To them they’ve lost their country, but they’re still in it. You know, like, what is it to, with what were the rice rations like? Yeah. So, 50 years on what stays with people, you know, against the backdrop of the most devastating thing that can happen is that like the rice was so broken and it was so rationed and the quality of it was so infuriating and that they and my uncle talks about just for the 50th anniversary, I went back, I had an event, um, I think at the Smithsonian, and I went and I was staying with my uncle, and so I was able to ask them questions and he remembers buying meat on the black market. But you, you’d go to this market, you’d make eye contact with the person. They, you follow them to a behind the stall. They give you this meat wrapped in newspaper. You don’t even know what it is. You don’t, you can’t unwrap it till you get home, you know? Anyway, those are the things that I, I just am so fascinated by, and I, there’s just this kind of humanity and life in them that I wanna help. Um, record and if nothing else, just so that I know that it gives me an opportunity to ask these questions. Um, there’s stuff about, you know, I’m estranged from my father and I have a lot there, there are things that I, you know, it just, these essays are helping me, better understand and, and process. these open-ended. storylines that, that, have punctuated and haunted me.    [00:45:38] Miko Lee: And this is your first book, right?    [00:45:40] Thao Nguyen: It is, yes.    [00:45:42] Miko Lee: What made you decide to do a book format and also essays, I heard you say? Mm-hmm. Um, as opposed to another album or a series of songs.    [00:45:52] Thao Nguyen: Um, I’ve always wanted to be a writer. Bef I wanted to be a writer before I was a songwriter, before I wanted to do anything. And I think it scares me the most in my life. And, and it was time to, you know, the opportunity came up, um, very fortunately to get to write a book for Gray Wolf, which of which I’m a huge fan, you know, and, uh, it’s a true honor to be affiliated with them. And. Uh, I wanted to do it because it’s a lifelong goal and dream, that actually is way scarier to me than making music and performing music. So I, I kind of just needed to see that I, I needed to try.    [00:46:38] Miko Lee: And why an essay format?    [00:46:40] Thao Nguyen: Um, I think that’s what naturally. For this, for the first go, it, it, it is what naturally I’m drawn to and what happens most easily. Uh, and I think they’re similar to songs in that way. And I, I am very much as a writer, as a songwriter or any or prose writer, I want to try and just capture the, a moment and a feeling and I. Um, that’s my main prerogative and my main compulsion when I write. And so for this first go, I’m hoping that there will be more, but this, yeah. Is, is just the, the easiest way to package it.    [00:47:28] Miko Lee: I’m absolutely looking forward to reading it. Now share about a musical. Tell me more    [00:47:34] Thao Nguyen: Musical. I don’t know how much I can say besides, uh, it’s not been announced yet, but I do, I have been in, I do spend a lot of time in New York, um, and it’s an adaptation. Um, I. I shouldn’t have. I, I just wanted to mention that it was happening, but I know now that I sh I can’t actually say.    [00:47:56] Miko Lee: Okay. That’s okay. It’s secret, So how can our audiences find out more about you and your work? We’ll put a link to your website absolutely. On their webs, on our, program page. But are there other ways that folks can find out more and keep up to date with what you’re doing?   [00:48:11] Thao Nguyen: For sure there’s, um, well, all the social media, um, outlets were on there @thaogetstaydown. And um, I have a substack called THAO For The Record, which actually was just me sort of documenting my process of making this next record. Um, but that is my preferred way to be in touch in a more long form, um, less harried way. And the new album is coming out in mid to late September. And so I’m really excited about that. And we’re, we are gearing up for more touring, starting the summertime.    [00:48:54] Miko Lee: Excellent. Can’t wait to listen to you more and hear the new, piece. And thank you so much for joining us on Apex Express.    [00:49:02] Thao Nguyen: Thank you so much for having me. It was such a joy to speak with you.   [00:49:05] Ayame Keane-Lee: The last song we’re playing tonight is also the last on the album Temple. It’s called “I’ve Got Something.”   MUSIC [00:53:51] That was “I’ve Got Something” by Thao & The Get Down Stay Down. [00:53:55] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for listening tonight. Remember to reconnect to your ancestral technologies and hold in the power of tenderness. Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night.            The post APEX Express – 6.18.26 Talk Story with Thao Nguyen appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 6.11.26 – Pride, Power, and Queer AAPI Voices 11.06.2026 59мин

  APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community.   This Pride Month—queer and trans AAPI community strength. On this episode, host Miata Tan is joined by guests from three organizations building queer AAPI community on their own terms. They explore what it’s like to find joy, organize together, and show up for each other in this moment.   QTViệt Cafe Collective Learn more about QTViệt Cafe Collective and their new documentary Đồng Quê: Of the Same Womb Website | Instagram | Join the Collective Catch the film at an upcoming screening:  June 14 — World Premiere | 22nd Annual Queer Women of Color Film Festival | Presidio Theater, San Francisco  June 20 — Screening + Q&A with filmmaker Sage Tran | Hosted by the Q Corner | San Jose    Queer Hmong Intersectional Pride (QHIP) Learn more about QHIP and their upcoming workshops, events, and campaigns Instagram | Website | 5th Annual Elk Grove Pride   Lavender Phoenix (LavNix) Learn more about Lavender Phoenix and their Leadership Exchange program Website | Instagram | Leadership Exchange Program   Previous Episodes A Conversation with Lavender Phoenix: The Next Chapter — March 26, 2026 Trans & Queer Hmong Rise: Organizing in Central California — October 24, 2024 8 Years of QTViệt Cafe! — August 22, 2024   Transcript ​[00:00:00]  Miata Tan : Hello and welcome. You’re tuning in to APEX Express, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host, Miata Tan. We’re nearly halfway through June, and Pride Month is in full swing. Pride is a time to celebrate, honor, and dig into the deep political history of queer and trans communities. And tonight, [00:01:00] we’re zooming into a few distinct queer Asian American communities right here in Northern California. First, we’ll hear from a collective of queer and trans Vietnamese artists, activists, and organizers based in the Bay Area, who have a brand-new documentary out this weekend. Then we’ll dive into the political organizing of queer and trans Hmong communities in Fresno and Sacramento. And we’ll close out the show with a queer Asian American community leader and some different ways that you can get involved this summer. Okay, let’s get into it. First up, my conversation with QTViet Cafe Collective. And before you ask, no, QTViet Cafe is not a brick-and-mortar cafe that serves coffee. They are a Bay Area-based creative cultural hub for queer and trans Vietnamese liberation through gatherings, art showcases, cultural programming, and more. QTViet Cafe is a part of Asian Refugees United, [00:02:00] and tonight we’ll be discussing their new documentary, Dong Hoi: Of the Same Womb. It is premiering this Sunday, June 14, as part of the 22nd Annual International Queer Women of Color Film Festival in San Francisco. Dong Hoi asks viewers what it means to return to a homeland, to a community, to yourself. Here’s my conversation with the QTViet Cafe Collective. Miata Tan: Thank you all so much for joining me today on APEX Express. Sage, perhaps you can start us off. would you be able to introduce yourself and share a little bit about what the QTViet Cafe Collective is?  Sage Tran: My name is Sage. I use they/them pronouns. One of filmmakers/digital archivists for QTViet Cafe Collective. we are a cultural hub where we focus on, diasporic themes around intergenerational Vietnamese and identity and queerness. We do a lot our [00:03:00] events and workshops and gatherings around food, remembrance, and, our gay and they selves.  Miata Tan: Lovely. Jessie, who are you and what brought you to QTViet?  Jessie Nguyen: Sure, my name is Jessie, and my pronouns are they or Jessie, and I’ve been part of the collective since, 2018. I think I found the collective in a place in my life when I was really searching for ways to, bring an intersection to all parts of my identities, QTViet Cafe Just like Sage said, it’s a creative hub, it’s a cultural hub that is really dedicated to uplifting queer and trans Viet liberation through ancestral practices , different, forms of art and intergenerational connection. yeah, I just really appreciate the ways that QTViet Cafe has just been so dedicated to our, art and then also uplifting our art to really, bring forth community, organizing work, solidarity [00:04:00] work and our own, like, queer and trans Viet excellence  Miata Tan: Love that. Jean, could you share a little bit about yourself as well?  Jean Pham: Thanks for having us here. my name is Jean Pham. I use they/them pronouns. i’ve also been a part of QTViet Cafe since 2018 when I had first moved here to the Bay Area. Like Sage and Jessie had shared, QTViet Cafe is, it’s a really special space. I think as d- diasporic Vietnamese, speaking broadly, like culturally we experience being displaced on many different levels. Um, when people say that it’s a cultural hub, really tangible in a, in a lot of the activities and things that we do. we’ve hosted like art residencies. We cultural dinners. We have language groups. QTViet Cafe, it really exists to fill a need. and I think part of that need brought us, to the culmination of this specific project, to bring us back into Vietnam  Miata Tan: Yeah, lovely. And we can pick up from there your trip to Vietnam. this, was captured by Sage recently in a documentary. Sage, could you speak more about what, this new doco is about? where did this project come [00:05:00] from? Sage Tran: this project emerged from a collective hunger for wanting to return back to the motherland. for years of doing a lot of gathering here, specifically in the Bay Area, we’ve been able to stay rooted in the territories here. And, we all came to a consensus like , what would it be like to gather a bunch of us and connect with our siblings, brother, sisters, family, chosen fam out in the motherland? that became a seed that we cultivated, planted, tend to, and we fundraised with a lot of community support to get about 13 of us out uh, Vietnam. maybe Jessie can talk a little bit more about this, but Hai and Ma are the, folks who founded QTViet Cafe Collective [00:06:00] Jessie, Ma, and Hai. They all three went to Vietnam in 2022 and built a lot of beautiful connections of like local drag artists, queer trans collectives out there. That’s kind of what birthed Đồng Quê.  Miata Tan: so  I’ve been lucky enough to, watch the film already. Đồng Quê is the name of the documentary, but it’s also the name of the performance that came together Jesse, perhaps you can speak to this this journey more and I know QTViet C- Cafe’s been around since 2016,  this project goes back, a few years as well Jessie Nguyen: Yeah, sure. I can speak a little bit about that and just chiming into, like, what Sage already shared. there was a small group of collective members that that came up with the idea of, like, what would it be like for us as, queer and trans Viet diasporic folks to go to the homeland. the original intent was for that trip to happen in 2020. And it [00:07:00] actually, because of the pandemic, I think obviously things were, logistically it just didn’t work, but that, dream, like, surfaced again, so the question came up about, like, what would it be like for us to travel together to the homeland as a collective and also share our art, to , connect with other Viets in Saigon. You know, when we’re in the Bay, so much of our work is really centered around gathering communities around our food, our art, and our stories. And so it really made sense for us to think about what would that look like in Vietnam. And so in 2022, as Sage was mentioning, me, Hai, and Ma,, went to Saigon and just kind of explored, like, what is the creative scene like and were able to connect queer and trans Viet artists who are doing insanely inspiring creative work. we connected with folks from the Baxiu Collective, and they’re a group of, queer and trans Viet artists who are doing drag in different, performance spaces in queer bars in Saigon. And then I think in that moment we’re like, “Wait, we would love to [00:08:00] collaborate with you.” from that unfolded, a, a year-long , like, planning of, what would it look like for us to do a shared showcase together. And so we identified built relationships with a queer bar in Saigon. and then so leading up to the homeland trip, we planned this showcase where it would be a mix artists from our collective and artists from their collective, and then a whole, a whole performance that unfolded. And I think in the year of 2023, that year I think we ended up fundraising, about 50K in order to really subsidize and support the whole journey of getting us to Vietnam. Like, stipending artists and creatives that we were collaborating with. it was, one of the biggest projects I think that QTViet has ever been a part of and really undertaken, and I think it definitely is, like, a huge highlight for, like, my time with QTViet. Miata Tan: Lovely, and it’s so beautiful to see it all come together in the documentary. Jean, could you speak to your experience? I understand this was [00:09:00] your first time ever visiting Vietnam  Jean Pham: Yes, it was my first time visiting Vietnam. so I had a well of emotions in terms of the lead-up to it. Like Jesse was sharing, you know, originally the plan was we were gonna go in 2020. That had to shift, you know, shelter in place and everything. A lot of the work that we do is reconnection, right? as diasporic Vietnamese being displaced from our ancestral land, as queer and trans people, um, a big rallying point for many of us is feeling displaced from our own families. And so part of, like, returning back together is fighting against it. It’s like, what if we reconnect ? You know, what if we re- reunite? You know, w- if we’re traveling together as queer community, we can really see and understand what it’s like to be uh, Vietnam for ourselves. And so it was really, like h- it had this like gravity around it, and I think it made me really nervous but also excited. that being said, you know, a lot of other folks who are part of our cohort, even though they had gone to Vietnam before, a lot of them had also shared this is their [00:10:00] first time going without family, And we’re going specifically towards, queer and trans community in Vietnam, which is also a departure from their other experiences too. Jessie Nguyen: Can I just add something? Because I just really loved what Jean shared. I just think that, yeah, I think that you really spoke to something there about how we can spend our whole lives, like, having this understanding of homeland that is actually quite disconnected from our queerness and our transness. And similar to, like, many other folks in the collective, like, I have been to Vietnam, multiple times before, but never in the context of centering my queerness and transness because I just wasn’t sure, like, what felt safe. You know, without having, like, fluency in the language or even knowing, like, how to express my queerness in Vietnam. Oftentimes it just felt… I felt pretty invisibilized there, you know, because, like, being there with family, I just show up as, like, a, a family member, There’s so much that is a part of me that is expressed through my queerness and my transness that [00:11:00] is that isn’t as visible. And so I think that being in a space as a collective gave us permission to do and to feel deeply woven into our cultural experience was, like, in- in- incredibly liberating.  Miata Tan: Yeah. That’s really beautiful, Jessie. I also noticed in the film your aunt was also, part of it as well, so you were able to hold that familial side of yourself as well as the queer side. Could you speak more to that?  Jessie Nguyen: Yeah. I was just watching the documentary yesterday too, and I was like, oh my gosh, I– it was so sweet that my aunt had a moment in that documentary. the thing that I was really interested in was trying to weave my connection with my family to, like, my connection with, like, my chosen queer family, And I think that became very possible when, we did the homeland trip. I’m, I’m not fluent in Vietnamese, and I’m especially not fluent in trying to articulate what it means to be queer and [00:12:00] Vietnamese. And so the idea of inviting QTViets to my aunt’s home was, like, a way to be like, “Hey, this is who I and here are my– here’s my community.” And maybe if I can’t actually, like, articulate that, like, I I want my aunt to, like, feel that sense of, like, care and connection of my community. And then to me that felt like a way of inviting my Vietnamese family to this part of my life. I think that it’s, it’s oftentimes hard to even do that here in the Bay. You know? Like, the connection that I have to my blood family and then my connection to my chosen family here in the Bay, like, can feel quite separate. keeps me coming back to QTViet is that we always make space for that intergenerational connection that doesn’t invisibilize our queerness and our gender identity . Miata Tan: Sage, could you speak more to this theme of family? It seemed to be really core to the documentary tell us about how that felt as the director, like being behind the [00:13:00] camera but also part of the QTViet team on this trip?  Sage Tran: directing and being behind the camera had a lot of challenges. I think there’s something where I’m not sure if y- like folks can relate to this, but when you are filming something with your iPhone or on your camera, there’s a connection and a disconnection that happens at the same time. You’re not able to fully present, but you are. I was straddling the line of like is this shot looking beautiful and also crying I think there was a moment where we were in a taxi or Grab car, and it was Hai, Jesse, and Jesse’s aunt, she was dropping some heavy moments, and I just remember we’re all crying in the car while the Grab driver is like blasting music, and it’s like a super bumpy road. People are honking at us, and it was just like such a funny and rocky, symbolic, memory I just was like, “Wow, I can’t [00:14:00] believe I’m getting to document this” like historical moment, not only for Jesse, but just like for the collective and what does it mean for folks who are queer and trans that can’t have moments like this. It’s just like kind of a reminder to slow down and being like, ” Okay,” am I getting to embody this moment while holding the stabilization of the camera?” And I think still I find that to be a challenge, but a, a really fun dance of filmmaking, directing and being there. Miata Tan: Yeah, definitely. I can’t imagine trying to keep the camera still while you’re bawling your eyes out.  Sage Tran: Yes.  Miata Tan: Jean, we’ve talked a now about this connection of blood family and found family as well. could you speak a bit to the QTViet Cafe family that sort of came together on the trip, but also this wider, Vietnamese, queer community you were able to find over there in Saigon? Jean Pham: Every step of the way it felt really [00:15:00] good because when, like, you know, we were traveling together as this, this giant mass of just gay people. and so I always felt like, oh, I could kinda be off guard, I understand that, like, for a lot of Korean trans people, w- when traveling we’re on high alert, there’s just a lot of unpredictability. There is safety in numbers. There’s safety in communities. I felt like, you know, the QTViets have my back. There was a bigger group that came together in SFO, and we just t- all booked the same flights. And then there were some people who were coming, like, a little bit later. I had been with QTViets at that point for about six or seven years, and so there was a lot of trust already built. With the Saigonese Viets, it, it was like a, just a natural kinship. You know? It was like, it was also as if like we were just friends off the bat or there was just this shared understanding. We had a gathering, and I think this is featured in the documentary. after gathering, people were just kind of, getting to know each other in in their flat, and they were teaching us how to walk in heels, and it was so lovely. And I remember thinking like, “Oh gosh, what music do I play here? How do I set the mood?” But the, th- I think the reality is, [00:16:00] you know, Rihanna is like a common language, like among gay people. Everyone under like … It was, it was funny ’cause like, you know, I would, you know, I would play music that I would just listen to. Like, they’re just, pop girlies that would play in the States. And, yeah, gay people, like, they, they just love a diva no matter where you are. And so that that was really nice. But r- truly, like, the DIY drag scene in Saigon is huge, and it c- it’s, like, so varied. And, I do wanna shout out, like, all the queens and the Baxio Collective and all the trans artists who really helped, make our show and, like, really helped hone in our craft. And they were pr- they were strict, you know? They were like, “You have to come here early, and you have to come in, like, days before. And we’re gonna have to practice over and over again.” And they had, like, really specific notes on how to make the show better. And so it was interesting as a culture exchange they were learning, how we were operating in terms of how we organize and a- I think a lot of the spoken word, slam poetry style that, like, some of our members were bringing. And from them, we were [00:17:00] learning a lot of the theatrics on really how to, like, have a show and really think, holistically about all the different components. Miata Tan: Jessie, could you speak more to the show? Uh, what did it look like? How did it feel? Jessie Nguyen: So back in 2022 was when we discovered that there is actually one queer bar in Saigon, and it’s in District 4. this bar called Bar Zinga. And it’s, like, in this alleyway. It’s pretty divey. And so when we were there in 2022, we actually spent uh, New Year’s there, and we got to know the owner, and we got to know, like, what they envisioned for the space, which is they’ve been using it as a space for, drag, drag performances, music sets, and things like that. And we’re like, “Oh, wait. Maybe this could be a good spot for us to do something for QTViet.” And So essentially the vision for the show was for us to collaborate with, Babel and Yat, who are the co-founders of Bạc Xỉu Collective, they are incredible, like, production artists and drag artists.  we [00:18:00] invited folks from the collective, if they wanted to share some of their art as well. And so we had… Let’s see. I remember Irene, who is one of the poets and also, like, OG QTViets, shared, some poetry, and then we had also Hai sharing some erotica. Me, Hai, and Lan did a ao dai fashion runway show.  and then there was, Oh, Judy and Hiroshi who did, like, a whole, like, lô tô, so that was, like, based off of, like, like a Vietnamese game, and they did a whole performance on that. yeah. So it was kind of, like, cool to be in this space and inviting folks from the community to come in, and it was a full house. people were feeling so nervous, but the, also the energy of, like, I can’t believe this is happening. You know? that the art that we’ve created in the Bay, that we get to share it in Saigon. Miata Tan: So beautiful. yeah, it’s really nice to see this, cross-cultural, international, connection that you’ve built with, the folks in Vietnam. Sage, could you speak more to, the [00:19:00] documentary itself, what you hope viewers will take away from the film, and especially seeing depiction of, of queer joy in the performance? Sage Tran: I think what I hope viewers take is like the power of remembering and the power of remembering with community. Cause I think like also editing this film, I’m like, I remember exactly what y’all said word for word. It’s like ingrained in my head.  I think there was something that, Jean, you said in… You said something where like it doesn’t matter if you’re Vietnamese, it doesn’t matter where you were born. It matters and it doesn’t, but also like there’s so many cross-cultural connections and parallels that, tie us all together. And I think, on the theme of remembering and leaning into our joy and our creativity, there’s so much that can unlock with, just living our truths. I think, yeah, I think that’s what I hope viewers take away with  Miata Tan: Beautiful. and the documentary will be premiering, this [00:20:00] June, as part of QSMAP here in the city in San Francisco. We have A little bit of time here, so I’d love to talk about, uh, what else QTViet has on the horizon, campaigns, workshops, other performances. Jean, Jessie, would either one of you be able to speak to this?  Jessie Nguyen: The only thing that is really on my mind around QTViet is that we are celebrating our 10-year anniversary in September. And I don’t know what that’s gonna look like, but I think that it definitely is gonna be a invite and just a opportunity for us to reflect on everything that we’ve been able to cultivate as a collective, and also just to notice, like, how much we’ve evolved. I think that when so many of us joined in 2016 to 2018, we were, younger queers who were really looking for community and maybe felt pretty isolated. And I know that, like, where I am today, my connection to my Vietness and my queerness, like, feels so deeply ingrained. And a [00:21:00] huge part of that is because of having a container like QTViet. I was also gonna talk about Ordinary People, because it’s actually a show that we’re doing a audio visual storytelling performance that is led by one of the QTViet members, Jop, uh, Nguyen. And it’s gonna include, several other QTViet members that are gonna be, contributing as, like, a band. there have been music and songs and videos and animations and, yeah, lots of different elements to really bring to life, like, what it feels like for our parents to, experience their homeland, their escape, their journey here, and then also how we really, how we connect to that story. Miata Tan: Thank you for sharing, Jessie. Sadly, this interview is airing after the Ordinary People performance, but I’ll play a little snippet in a bit. Jean, final question. with this 10-year anniversary of QTViet Cafe, how do you see your recent [00:22:00] adventures informing your work? How you organize, how you gather Jean Pham: I think after the trip, there was, like, a re-invigoration of, purpose honestly, like, a new wave of renewed energy and also new people who were joining the space. we started practicing a lot more solidarity work. I think almo- almost immediately after returning, there were a few events that was in solidarity with, Palestine. And as we were returning from the trip, last year was also the 50th anniversary of the war in Vietnam ending, and so we used that as an opportunity to draw connections between how, the conditions of the Vietnam War was truly, like, politically activating for a lot of young people in the ’60s, similarly to um, the genocide uh, Palestine was politically activating for people now, uh, and how, like, have a shared struggle. with 10 years of QTViet Cafe, I think it’s more evident that QTViet is an, like, entity, a group that needs to exist. and we always invite people to join us. if anyone’s listening who is diaspora queer and trans Vietnamese, is looking [00:23:00] for community, you know, looking for language classes or, like, just, uh, ways to build, you know, we’re always more than happy to join people. You know, last year, Jessie and a a couple other friends organized this amazing trip to New York. there was really this big energy around uniting all the different scattered parts of QTViets all over and coming together and understanding that, you know, we, we all, um, um, have a lot in common. and so I, I do think that was really uplifted and highlighted in our trip, this feeling of, like, you know, we’re not- we’re actually not so alone, and there’s so many of us, and we’re, like, we’re all so powerful. Miata Tan: Beautiful. I think that’s a perfect place to end. Thank you all so much for joining me today Jessie Nguyen: Yay. Thank you so much  Sage Tran: Thank you so much. Thank you.  Jean Pham: I know, this is so lovely. Thank you. Miata Tan : That was Sage Tran, Jean Pham, and Jessie Nguyen with the QTViet Cafe Collective. Their new documentary, Dong Hue: Of the Same Womb, premieres this Sunday, June 14th at the Presidio Theatre in San Francisco. That’s part of the 22nd Annual International Queer Women of Color [00:24:00] Film Festival, this year featuring 47 films, 10 world premieres, all totally free and open to the public. so if you’re in the Bay, this is well worth your time. You can also catch QTViet Cafe’s new documentary in San Jose on Saturday, June 20th at a screening hosted by the Q Corner, followed by a Q&A with Sage Tran, the filmmaker that you just heard from. For links to these events and more about QTViet Cafe and how you can get involved in the collective, check out the show notes for this episode. That’s on our website at kpfa.org/program/APEXexpress Coming up next, queer and trans Hmong communities in California’s Central Valley. But first, here’s a taste of Ordinary People, a recent live performance by QTViet Cafe recorded in Oakland last month. ​ Miata Tan : [00:25:00] [00:26:00] [00:27:00] That was a live recording from Ordinary People by the QTViet Cafe Collective,  in Oakland last month. This is APEX Express, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. Tonight, in honor of Pride Month, we’re turning our attention to queer Asian American communities right here in Northern California: who they are, how they organize, and the future they are fighting for. Miata Tan: My next guests are Shai Chang and Christine Thao from Queer Hmong Intersectional Pride, also known as QHIP. QHIP grows out of Hmong Innovating Politics, a grassroots advocacy group based [00:28:00] in Fresno and Sacramento, and focuses on building community and political power for queer and trans Hmong communities in California’s Central Valley. Here’s my conversation with Shai and Christine. Miata Tan : You both so much for joining me today on APEX Express. Could you share a little bit about yourself? Who are you, and what is your work with Hmong Innovating Politics? Shai Chang: Hi, my name is Shai, pronouns are they and them. I’m trans, non-binary, also Hmong, located in Yokuts Valley, Fresno, California. the work that I do in Hmong Innovating Politics is that I am a community organizer. I’m the Fresno Trans and Queer Community Organizer, I work specifically in the program called Queer Hmong Intersectional Pride, or QHIP, Q-H-I-P. And we do a lot of really great work with our trans and queer, in particular, like, intersectional folks, people of color within our, our communities and our members and our base to organize to fight, fascism, racism, also, like, transphobia and forms [00:29:00] of hate, moving us towards social justice and liberation. Miata Tan : It’s really important work, and I’m excited to get into more of what, Queer Hmong Intersectional Pride looks like, Christine, could you share a little bit about yourself? who are you, and how long have you been with, HIP and QHIP?  Christine Thao : Thank you so much for inviting my name is Christine Thao. I use she/they pronouns, and I am currently here on Nisenan, occupied Nisenan land here in the South Sacramento area. my role is the Sacramento, Trans Queer Community Organizer. And so I came into HIP, back in 2020, so during the COVID pandemic, and, um, I came on board as the administrative assistant. um, in 2024, I transitioned into the community organizer role.  Miata Tan : Lovely. Yeah. Can’t wait to get into the work that you do and the campaigns. to ground us in the history of, Hmong communities in America, Shai, could you speak to, who [00:30:00] the Hmong Americans are? I know that Fresno and Sacramento is home to some of the largest populations of Hmong people in the States. Shai Chang: Yeah, definitely. so the Hmong communities are from Southeast Asia, very much like indigenous folks that live within the mountain ranges and the hills. and the reason why we came to America was because of the Secret War the war that happened in Southeast Asia. one of our community members General Vang Pao was involved within this war and then pulled in the rest of the Hmong community to be part of this it is to say that, like many of our young men during that time was pulled into the war, and they were 13, maybe even 14, 15, and younger who were, pulled into the war to fight for America, um, with the promise of that America was going to give them a place that they could call home it was in 1975 where the war ended and, that’s when the military went ahead and was able to, because of Ronald Reagan signed, um, a letter for immigration for, [00:31:00] these Hmong folks and refugees to come into the United States. Miata Tan : Yeah, perhaps you can take us back to then, 2018 when, QHIP sort of came to life. what was the need that you were seeing for, queer and trans Hmong people in, in specifically Fresno and, and Sacramento where you all are based?  Shai Chang: the way Hmong communities have always existed was very much to be lay low, you know, not be sticking your head out. And so to be very clear, it’s that we are still struggling, economically. we are still very much struggling racially. The ICE attacks definitely impacted our communities we are still very much immigrants and still very much not necessarily having a place of home. But internally is that the Hmong community still very much holds on to, like, the, the traditions. And so they’re very patriarchal, um, very strict gender roles, and because of these things have then developed into, gender-based violence [00:32:00] as, like, trans and queer folks, it’s that we definitely do experience another deeper layer of the oppressions, especially also in our community because there isn’t actually any language in Hmong to talk about what trans or queerness is, where there’s no exact word to describe, like, gay or lesbian and things like that. So there is definitely, like, an erasure that also has happened, and in the Hmong community is actually very conservative. Uh, But HIP was already a very progressive organization. And so it was in 2018 because of Hmong innovating politics coming to Fresno. it was at the Hmong New Years, I saw them. I was like, “Oh my gosh, I know who you are. I love you. Like, if there’s anything I can do, please let me know,” ‘ Mai Thao was able to pull me in. It was like, “Hey, I want you to do something with us.” and with- was then funded three thousand dollars through HIP, to be able to go ahead and organize for whatever it means for me to trans queer Hmong work. during that time, it grew from, like, me, three people to having, like, fifteen people, [00:33:00] meet, once a week for three hours, and then another three hours we would go out and hang out. and so it really became this place for a social space for particularly, and, and I will name it, it’s that majority of the folks in that space was gay cis Hmong men. And it wasn’t until a year later from that first time that we first met in 2018 to we had a really hard conversation about our future, about the political work that that we should be doing. and so I’ve been with HIP for four years, and we’ve officialized during that time QTPIP to be a program, within HIP, and yeah, it’s been really good. I don’t have to worry about funding and things and organizing around that front end, and HIP has been able to be s- very supportive in being able to see that, and we can really work on the ends of what does it mean for us to organize around liberation and being on the ground with our community  Miata Tan : Yeah, definitely. It’s interesting to hear about the progression from [00:34:00] perhaps a group that was maybe more apolitical moving into that political space.  Shai Chang: we’ve also been, struggling still even now to land on what it means for us to fight more intersectionally. that’s where, like, QHIP and Queer Hmong and intersectional pride comes from, right? Is this word intersectional, coined by Kimberlé Crenshaw, is that We do have these cross identities that exist within ourselves. And so would love to have Christine talk more about what actually this issue is within not just Hmong communities, Hmong and trans queer communities. Christine Thao : Thank you, Shy. so Queer Hmong Intersectional Pride, we officially launched the program back in 2024. our QHIP program, It is open to young people between ages, 18 to 25. uh, young trans queer folks. Some go to college. Some, currently looking to be employed. Young people who are impacted, [00:35:00] young people who want to get involved, right, who, who do care about, this work, and who care about social justice, it’s a eight-month program And our gatherings are, we call them our huddles, our QHIP huddles. And they’re, we do them about biweekly, I can speak a little bit for Sacramento.  we’ve been meeting up at a cafe. We also use our office space. And, this is just a really a moment in time for our members to, bring up and have critical conversations about things that are happening in their lives or things that they’re seeing in their community. Miata Tan : Perhaps you could speak more to the organizing piece. What does this look like? Um, what sort of work are y’all up to? Shai Chang: Some of the ways in which we have organized, in our community is through the framework of BBB. It’s our belong, believe, become, and it sounds really cheesy, but this is really how we mobilize our people, we know as trans and queer people, especially as a person of color, we don’t know and have enough spaces of [00:36:00] belonging. we actually have a, such a hard time believing in ourselves, and because of that, we have such a hard time in becoming. And this sounds like the story of literally just transitioning. when you Transition is that you really need to have a space of, believing in yourself. You need to have a space in which you can belong, where you are safe, and then through that you can actually become and this person that you have always wanted to be. This is how we mobilize and organize our members and our community because once they start practicing this ability to be able to believe in themselves, have the spaces for them to organize and organize with other people. and to figure out, like, , what is our campaign strategy? What is the ways in which we wanna win in our community, right? And Uh, in gender-affirming care in Fresno and the Central Valley was very, very hard. many of the times folks will have to go to, like, the bigger cities like LA SF to get their care that they needed. We need actual, like, [00:37:00] materialistic wins for our communities so that way they can get to where they need to be. when I’m talking about Materialistic things, it’s that, we need them to be housed. We need them to have the affordable, uh, care. We need them to have, the affirming care that they are needing, we know how hard it is for, in particular, trans and queer people to be able to afford literally anything. and it’s so much more harder for them to find a career or a job, in a place where they actually also can live and exist through their identities. we’ve seen the, impacts of, ICE and immigration on our own communities these were, like, the works that were coming out constantly for our communities to fight for, these kind of justice issues, through these ways, we’ve been able mobilize and move our people to what does it mean for us to actually start thinking about a campaign strategy for us to win some kind of materialistic need and, of course, we work with youths a lot, right? So where is our youth justice at? And this is literally our youth justice, right? We’re having our young people share their voices. We [00:38:00] have our young adults organizing in the community, um, doing protestings, and fighting against the system. in particular, more recently, this, board of supervisor in Fresno County banned and denied, LBGTQ books in the Fresno County libraries. and we’ve organized to get people to show up to write letters and to really be there, and hundreds of people shown up and yet they still continue to, not hear their own constituency and their own community They continuously vote against us. that’s why HIP is political, right? Is that we have our civic engagement side, is that, okay, well, it sounds like we need to vote them out, right? And that’s what is it mean, and that’s what it’s about now.  Miata Tan : Yeah, I hear you. It sounds like you’re really helping to build political power within Hmong communities in, in Fresno and Sacramento. I’m curious, what has wins look like, uh, for your groups there? how have, you perhaps helped to show those material, changes [00:39:00] for your young people? Shai Chang: Uh, to be honest, it’s not much, We’re still very new into formed more as a social group in 2018, and just finally became, you know what? Let’s be political as f***.  Let’s be authentic as f***, you know? y’all really wanna make trans and queer identities political, Then let’s be political. and we’ve just started mobilizing, moving around those kind of things and identities only just more recently, right? As Christine mentioned, in  But the wins that we can really claim a name is that we have a 100% retention rate for our members. yeah. Um, we have tripled the amount of members that we had since then. and we are so excited for us to be able to, like, move and mobilize with our people intentionally and not just like, “Oh, we just need to be here for critical mass,” it is a two-part, right? It’s that, one, we need critical mass. We And the other part of this is that we [00:40:00] people to come in intentionally to be a part of this movement work. I actually went to present about QHIP more recently, and they asked, “Oh my gosh, is there any, like, open meetings that you have flyers about? Like, when do y’all meet? And then, like, do you have a flyer for that? And I can share it with, my members.” And I was like, “Actually, we do meet, and it– we do meet biweekly on Fridays. The members themselves are holding the space for the meeting. and so I can ask them about that, but I also wanna let you know that it’s not necessarily an open invitation for folks to just come in whenever they want.” We want people to come in intentional, and we want people to engage intentionally. And this is how we want us to move away from this autopilot into being able actively making changes and fights for our communities that will win us materialistic wins. Obviously in this administration, in the Trump administration, um, it has not been easy. just two years ago, they actually closed, the only LGBTQ [00:41:00] homeless shelter in Fresno, and a lot of folks now have, like, a hard time understanding where to go and what and how to navigate it. the Fresno, like, LGBTQ center also closed their doors for, like, the first time in, like, a long And so there is a lot of different impacts as impacting our community, from, like, LGBTQ centers closing, LGBTQ-serving organizations slowing down, And the way that our members and our community and our base have been organizing is As a community resource with one another is that like, ” Hey, I have an extra bed. Y’all can come sleep and crash ” there.” you hungry?” Let’s go get food.” Right? Really checking with each other and also being able to ask our community for funding as So HIP, we were able to organize and did a fundraiser back in March 50K. That’s huge we also know there are impacts that also is beyond us, too. it was with this past, like, Hmong New Year [00:42:00] that we did, that we wanted to do a Hmong New Year action, an action to really fundraise for our families who were detained by ICE. And so we did a mutual aid fundraiser, asking our community members to donate money, and we were able to raise… we only did it for, like, three hours, and we were able to raise $700. So we’re like, ” What if we kept going?” Right? And that’s where our fundraiser for 50K came from. so there is, like, ways in which we are trying to organize and mobilize our communities. And, to be very honest is that HIP and, QVIP is not necessarily a direct service organization and not necessarily in that way. I think many of the times people see HIP as like, “Oh, you’re here to save us,” we’re not that, right? We’re really here to mobilize with our community, uh, we have our youth organization over in Edison High School, they were pushed into a small classroom, storage room, actually, for band and also, sports as well. And so it, it was being disruptive a lot. one of our [00:43:00] previous, like, young adult members recognized that, and they were like, ” Sh-uh, Shy and HIP, Please, can y’all do something about this issue?” And we’re like, “No.” But we’ll do it with you, right? and so we came in, we taught them about organizing, and literally those youths were able to organize themselves to have a classroom now, they remember that. They hold onto that, right? Regardless if we were here or not, they will still be able to know that and hold onto And so it’s very much like that as well with our members, is that we want them to be able to organize within among themselves without having the need of, of HIP and entities being able to, have the, have the solution for them Miata Tan : mm, that makes a lot of sense. Really being able to work with community and give them tools so then they can continue to build is something really powerful that, you do at both HIP and QHIP. I’m curious, with this very challenging political moment that we’re living through, not only for queer and trans folks, but immigrant communities as [00:44:00] well, how are you holding this, this pain alongside, trying to also celebrate and honor your communities, um, and especially your queer and trans community members? Shai or Christine,  Christine Thao : At HIP we have what is called third spaces, and third spaces are heart spaces. these are, spaces where our young people, they continue to, build their organizing. They get to organize with one another and with HIP, to hold space to build community, to build belongingness, To show up, be present, make connections. is also a space where our young people, they get to decompress as well,  in a world where it feels so chaotic, we do a lot of, the hard stuff with organizing, but then organizing can be so fun. and our young people, they get to see both sides, right, get to experience that. What I’m holding onto is being [00:45:00] engaged and getting involved, it is, Um, How can we connect our young people, to our community partners, right? To make those connections, to build deeper, this year it looks like us, being more intentional about our capacity and who we are, building out with, um… I’m on, I’m currently on the planning community for Elk Grove Pride, and so, uh, our young people are also a part of that, where they get to lead a role, and create, spaces of celebration, right? there’s A lot of different opportunities our young people are also involved in, and, it, it is that wanting our young people to, feel empowered to get involved in these spaces as well.  Miata Tan : Yeah. Lovely. Thank you so much, Christine. It sounds like you’re really able to create, a beautiful space and community for your young people. Shy, uh, to close out, I’d love to know what’s on the horizon for QHIP. It’s Pride Month. unfortunately this episode is airing after Fresno Pride, but, perhaps you could [00:46:00] speak a little bit to that and what else is on the horizon. Shai Chang: Sure thing. the first thing I need to say is Happy Pride Month. so Happy Pride Month, everyone. Fresno always hosts their Pride parade, always the first Saturday of, of the Pride month it is On Saturday, June 6. Pride parade over at Tower District in Fresno. it’s gonna be very fun. It’s super exciting. We will be marching in there all together, and the theme for this year is, Pride Without Border. we’re gonna be Extra powerful in calling out all of the different, struggles that our intersectional folks are all facing and being able to march together in liberation. what’s also coming up next is, I- I’m foreseeing it to happen probably next month or in August, is that we will have a third space event to really celebrate Pride. we spend all our energy to be part of the Pride parade preparing our members and supporting them, but we haven’t necessarily celebrated QHIP’s [00:47:00] own Pride, you know, we work very politically in election works, and so we always have a bunch of these like, door hangers, Vote yes on Prop 3,” things like that, right? And so we have so much of those paper, and so what we usually do during this, like, Pride event that we do in QHIP is that we- we use these as an opportunity for us to do trash drag. it’s an opportunity for us to get glammed out everyone gets to participate creating this, like, image through the trash drag. And so we’re excited to be able to do that, so please keep on the lookout. Miata Tan : Sorry, why is it called trash drag? I’d love to know.  Shai Chang: It’s because, like, we had s- you know, this much f- okay, we, we have a lot of flyers from the our elections, And especially this year. You know how in, in the mail you’ll get so much, like, ” Vote for this person, vote for this person.” all of this is all paper that is then thrown away without any second thought. and we will make them, and we’ll make, like, thousands of copies , right? But we never are able to pass it all out. what we do is that we will go ahead and reuse them one last time for [00:48:00] them to have an opportunity for them to shine, We’ll have them split up into teams, and then use all the different trash that they can gather and use, and glue them, tape them , staple them to make a dress, to make an outfit for this one person that they’re gonna designate to be the drag mother for their team. Miata Tan : I love that. That sounds like so much fun.  Shai Chang: Yeah. We’re gonna be doing it in Fresno and also in Sacramento, so we’ll figure out a ways for everyone to be involved.  Miata Tan : Oh, how wonderful. Christine, could you speak to what events are coming up in Sacramento for us?  Christine Thao : We are also having, um, Elk Grove Pride on June 20th. It’s from 5:00 to 9:00. it’s gonna be at the Elk Grove Laguna Town Hall. And so community is very welcome to attend. It is a free event. Think of it like, kind of like a resource gathering with, um, some really amazing performances we have, a lot of like, BIPOC TQ, artistes, and then also vendors [00:49:00] as well. So please show up and, would love to, to meet folks and connect with folks in these spaces.  Miata Tan : Beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing, Christine, and we’ll be sharing all the details of how you can get involved and learn more about QHIP and HIP at the end of this episode as well. Thank you both so much for joining me today.  Shai Chang: Thank you so much for having me. Miata Tan: That was my conversation with Shai Chang and Christine Thao at Queer Hmong Intersectional Pride, also known as QHIP Miata Tan : this is APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. To close out tonight’s show, I have one final guest. Cynthia Fong is the lead organizer at Lavender Phoenix, also known as LavNix, A Bay Area organization building power for queer and trans Asian and Pacific Islander communities. You may have heard of them. Their new executive director joined us on [00:50:00] air just a few months ago. Here’s a short conversation with Cynthia Fong on Queer Joy, community power, and what LavNix has coming up this summer Cynthia Fong: Thank you so much for having us. My name is Cynthia. I use they/them pronouns, and I’m here with Lavender Phoenix. Lavender Phoenix, we build trans, non-binary, queer API power through organizing in the Bay Area. We work with our members to demand true solutions to care and safety, and we’re excited to be here with you all. Miata Tan : I’m so excited to close out the episode with you. And as we’re in Pride Month, I hoped you might be able to share a little bit about queer joy and how Lavender Phoenix is celebrating that at the moment, honoring each other.  Cynthia Fong: Yeah, absolutely. Especially in times like this, times of escalated violence against our communities, we know that queer joy, queer resistance, and queer power are truly antidotes to the systems that are making us sick. For us, that means in our work, we fight for care not cops, [00:51:00] we fight for budgets that truly reflect the needs of our people, we fight for a free Palestine, and we fight to abolish ICE. If you agree with all of the things that I just said we also do a lot of leadership exchange programs, and that is where we really cultivate that belonging and community in our trans and queer API community. Miata Tan : Oh, I love that. Could you share a little bit more about the leadership exchange with our listeners?  Cynthia Fong: Yeah, absolutely. This is one of our time-honored traditions. It’s called the Queer Leadership Exchange, it’s also known as LEX. And this program will run for two weekends in July. we aim to provide training on fundamental organizing skills, trans and queer history in the Bay Area, and really to provide an opportunity for trans and queer Asian and Pacific Islanders to connect with, with each other in a space that’s made by and for us. We invite you to apply if you are trans or queer [00:52:00] and if you identify as Asian or Pacific Islander. Our deadline is July 1st. And in these two weekends, we usually gather with about 20 to 30 folks, and it’s really interactive. We have a mix of activities that we invite people to, to skill up on and, and really to become the leaders that our movements need. Miata Tan : Love that. Could you share a little bit about some leaders you’ve seen come out of these programs? Like, what does that look like? How are they, helping to, to organize community?  Cynthia Fong: the folks who graduate from our LEX program, it, it’s really a wide range of people, whether it’s trans and queer APIs at work in other nonprofit sectors. It’s also our folks who may be supporting our community in other ways, like as artists, as students, educators, as therapists. We see a lot of people take these skills and translate them into a variety of different sectors that we know trans and queer API people… we’re everywhere, more and more so now. And we would [00:53:00] love every single one of us to be grounded in our histories when we do that work. And not only our histories, but also in a firm sense of belonging with one another, to know that we’re not alone, to know that there are other trans and queer Asians and Pacific Islanders here in the Bay Area, all of whom share these values of wanting to build working class power. Miata Tan : that’s so nice, a more multi-generational, multi-sector,  ​ Cynthia Fong: And, you know, we take it as an opportunity, too, for us to build with other organizations and people who, who are like-minded. We don’t take it for granted. We know the Bay Area is a place where it’s very diverse, where We are actively fighting for what values we believe in and whose agenda we are willing to put in power. And so we really welcome a wide range of people. No matter where you are, the real important thing is you, you share our values. you believe in true solutions to care and safety that are not rooted in systems of policing or incarceration  Miata Tan : [00:54:00] That’s really powerful. to close this out , Could you share a little bit more about what’s on the horizon for Lavender Phoenix later in the year? You mentioned a few of the campaigns, Care Not Cops. perhaps if you wanna dive into some of those.  Cynthia Fong: Yeah, absolutely. Um, we are joining a really big coalition of people from Alameda to Sacramento to San Francisco, all of whom are paying a lot of attention to our budgets, when you say Care Not Cops, we see our budgets to really be that moral document that show us where our priorities are. For us, June is Pride Month, but it’s also budget season, Um, it gives us a really big opportunity to be as loud as we can about what we believe. and in San Francisco with $16 billion, it’s quite shameful that we have our community partners like the San Francisco Community Health Center, Lyric, our youth programs being defunded, all the while new jails are being opened, all the while the police are getting new toys, they’re [00:55:00] showing us that the money exists but it’s not for us. And so we join the voices that are demanding for a people’s budget, and we know that that’s gonna be an ongoing fight. We’ve been in it for a few years now, and we plan to continue. In terms of our organization, we’re actually super excited to say we have 100% of our membership really diving into what the next five years looks like for us. Folks may remember we came onto APAICS to announce a name change a few years ago. We were formerly known as API Equality Northern California. We came on APAICS a few years ago to share that we’ve changed to Lavender Phoenix, and we anticipate some new changes on the horizon being announced at the end of the year as well, hopefully with deeper clarity about what the next five years will look like for us. Miata Tan : Ooh. Interesting. It’s not a new name change, is it?  Cynthia Fong: No, no. We, we’re gonna stay… We’re keeping the t- we’re keeping our name. We love our name. We love the history in our name. But it’s really just the theory of [00:56:00] change, you know? I think our moment today is very unique, very different, very politically tumultuous, and we wanna be sharp. We wanna know what we’re organizing for, what we’re organizing against, and, and what it means for us to build power.  Our last theory of change process is what resulted in us focusing on leadership programs, leadership development. It is also where we decided that healing is really important for our people. It’s also where we decided that safety is really important for our people. And so I anticipate that it’s gonna be a deepening not, not a change, but a deepening of how we orient to this bigger picture of our movement for liberation and justice. Miata Tan : So beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing, Cynthia. Um, it was really lovely to speak with you.  Cynthia Fong: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much. I, hope to come Back soon. Miata Tan : That was Cynthia Fong with Lavender Phoenix. If you want to learn more about LavNix, we sat down with their team earlier in the year. Find that episode and their leadership exchange program in the show notes. Tonight, we also heard [00:57:00] from the QTViet Cafe Collective and Queer Hmong Intersectional Pride. Links to all of these organizations and their upcoming work are at kpfa.org/program/APEXexpress. This is APEX Express KPFA, airing every Thursday evening at 7:00 PM. Thank you for tuning in tonight APEX Express is a proud member of the Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality, a network focused on long-term movement building, capacity infrastructure, and leadership support for Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders committed to social justice. Learn more at aacre.org. This program produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me, Miata Tan. Get some rest y’all.   The post APEX Express – 6.11.26 – Pride, Power, and Queer AAPI Voices appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 6.4.26 – Food Justice 04.06.2026 59мин

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight’s APEX Express show is focused on food justice and Asian America. First, Host Miko Lee talks with artist Macy Tran about their work on food as a form of resistance, and then she speaks with researcher Dr. Milkie Vu around her work on food insecurity and Asian American communities.   Show TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.   [00:00:30] Miko Lee: Welcome to Apex Express. I’m your host, Miko Lee, and tonight we’re talking about food justice and Asian America. First, we talk with artist Macy Tran about their work on food as a form of resistance, and then we speak with researcher Dr. Milkie Vu around her work on food insecurity and Asian American communities. Join us tonight as we delve into food justice. Welcome to Apex Express, Macy Tran, I’m so happy to meet you.    [00:01:03] Macy Tran: I’m happy to meet you as well, Miko. Thanks for having me.   [00:01:06] Miko Lee: I just wanna start with the question I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?    [00:01:13] Macy Tran: I come from a legacy of powerful Vietnamese people who were born and raised in Vietnam and now are part of the diaspora in Minnesota. I come from food peoples and healers and chefs and creatives of all sorts who have learned how to make ends meet and to adapt and to work with what they have. I come from a long line of people who have loved through food and who have used food as a means of cultural preservation and education and survival, which has now been passed on to me. There’s so much to say about who I come from. My grandparents have stories of survival and resilience throughout the American War in Vietnam. And it’s only because of just their love and the decisions they’ve made on behalf of their love that I am here today. My parents own a restaurant in Minneapolis, Minnesota, Vietnamese restaurant called Pho 79/Caravelle That has a 40 plus year legacy of serving Chinese and Vietnamese food to the Minneapolis community. It started with my grandma’s brother, and then it passed down to my grandma. And now my grandma has since passed and has passed it down to my father and my mother. And so I like to say that it’s restaurant people who raised me. I grew up sleeping in the booths and all of the aunties, even though they weren’t blood aunties were my aunties. Because our survival was just so foundationally just predicated on food and what we served and shared with others, and also what we ate at home and the celebrations that we would have both at the restaurant and at home. This is really what makes me.    [00:03:20] Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing. Do you wanna talk more about the legacy part?   [00:03:24] Macy Tran: I carry a legacy of peoples who really know the importance of food and the way we use food to care and support each other. Even in the most hard of times when my family was. On a boat with 200 other people and didn’t know if they were going to survive when they kind of landed abroad. The shores of Indonesia, food has been with them throughout it all, and it is how I was raised to love and care for people. I see the ways that food is not just a means for sustenance, but also as joy, as creativity, as love, and I carry all of those, decisions and skills with me.    [00:04:19] Miko Lee: Thank you so much. I learned first about your book when I read a piece that you wrote for 18 million Rising, and I’m wondering if you could just talk about how that piece around food as a form of resistance, how did that come about?   [00:04:33] Macy Tran: I have a friend who works with 18 million Rising, and since the federal occupation in Minneapolis, I’ve been doing a lot of food justice organizing here. And it has been a way in which I have seen and expressed just the skills and love that I give to my community. I was just feeling compelled to give food. That was what I knew. In the past two months as my friends have been going out on the streets following ICE agents around legally observing, I have felt that my role in this movement is to feed frontline folks who are out doing the work and also feeding our community during a time in which it’s very scary and difficult to leave your home without fear of being abducted. In Minneapolis we have created systems of, food resource sharing that have been really powerful to witness and experience and to get engaged with. And so one way that I’ve been doing it is I’ve been cooking community meals most Sundays, sometimes Saturdays that feed 200 plus people.   [00:05:47] I am providing delicious food for my friends who are out on the streets and coming home and hungry and cold. And I also helped facilitate and organize a food distribution at my parents’ restaurant after the murder of Alex Preti I really wanted to not just be involved in like acting and responding to what was happening but as an artist, as a creative, I felt the need for also remembering and preserving and reflecting about what’s been going on in Minneapolis. I kept being pulled in all these different directions and was organizing over here and supporting this community and doing this. And then when my friend reached out to me at 18 million Rising,. It was such a great opportunity for me to really reflect on my practice of food as resistance and food as justice. I’ve been a food writer in the Twin Cities for about the past three years. Food, events, I mostly cover restaurant stories and festivals and theater and all that sort of stuff in the BIPOC community here in the Twin Cities. And I realized writing this piece that this was the first time in a while, that I had written something actually for myself from my heart that was in my voice. Without an editor saying, no, you have to say it this way. No, we have to cut that part out. No, you use too many words here, and so I really took this piece as an opportunity to share what my life was like here in my own words and my own experiences. And just use it as a moment to really reflect and share the things that I’m learning and the way that I am practicing and using food as a bridge to healing and transformation during this time in which we are ripe for needing that.   [00:07:47] Miko Lee: Can you roll back a little bit and talk to me about how you got started as an organizer? What, when you first learned about social justice work and what pulled you in?   [00:07:56] Macy Tran: It definitely wasn’t the way that I was raised. I was born in the us my parents were born in Vietnam and then came over to the US and they really raised me with the mentality of you just put your head down and you work hard and you don’t really get involved. And like, yeah, you care for others, but mostly you care for your family. I was actually someone who was always butting heads with my family because I was like, do you not see all of these issues that are happening in the world? Like the issue, the systems that were implicated in. We have to care beyond just ourselves, and we would always butt heads about that.   [00:08:33] Miko Lee: At what age did that start?    [00:08:35] Macy Tran: Oh, probably when I was a teenager. around that time I was finding my voice. and it wasn’t until college that I really started putting words and frameworks and theory into what I have already witnessed in my family and my community, which is just community care and the ways that facilitates justice and transformation I would say since college that I really started actively organizing primarily on campus. I went to a smaller liberal arts school. So organizing and just getting involved in our community in that way was pretty easy. And like after I graduated college, I spent five years in Southeast Asia, one year in Vietnam, and then four years in Thailand where I was primarily working at the intersections of education and refugee justice and environmental justice. I got to meet all sorts of organizers and activists from across the region who have taught me. Really everything, a lot of what I know about organizing and what it means to show up specifically within a Southeast Asian context and how to use kind of my feet in both worlds, both my American political identity and my Southeast Asian political identity.   [00:09:59] And to merge those for the better and for my community. So I would say that. I’ve always had a big heart ever since I was little. And actually my parents were always like, you are too trusting. You people are gonna take advantage of you in the world. And I was like, I just wanna live in this world with so much love. And the way that they taught me to do that was. Through food and through reliability and just what it means to show up consistently for my people. And so in some ways it was all baked into me, even though they might not see that and they might not have raised me in that way. I see the ways in which they have sacrificed for love and nourished their families through food and made incredibly scary risks for the freedom of their family and for their people, and for a new life. And I just feel like I’m walking in their footsteps, doing the same even if they might not feel that way.    [00:11:09] Miko Lee: So did you have to talk your family and the restaurant into getting involved in the food support work for activists in Minnesota?   [00:11:18] Macy Tran: it wasn’t a challenging conversation to have and I was surprised by that.    [00:11:22] Miko Lee: Oh, great.    [00:11:23] Macy Tran: Um, yeah, my parents have been, actually, this is the most politically active and vocal I have seen them. It’s really incredible. I would say that for a lot of actually the Vietnamese community that I’ve been witnessing in Minneapolis, like they’re saying things that I never thought that they would say. They’re putting analysis like what together? The Vietnamese community is, I would say, skews at least the older generation, I should say. The older generation of Viet folks skews pretty right wing, conservative Republican, Trump supporting. And I’m just seeing dissent for the first time. It’s not always like that explicit, but it is, I would say in the past what I’ve seen is just like. When kind of rightwing or more Republican opinions come up, if people disagree with that, it’s just like you’re just quiet. But now I’m seeing a way in which like people are responding, commenting on social media, like posting publicly about it. It’s just been really, really powerful. When I first started organizing in response to the federal occupation, my parents were really quite worried and they did not want me to get involved. And they didn’t really understand why I felt compelled to do this. And then when Alex Prety was murdered, I. It was actually my auntie, my mom’s youngest sister that brought up the idea of a food distribution because she was feeling like I just wanna do something and like, what is an avenue in which we can do something? Well, we have this restaurant. Mm-hmm. And so she proposed it to my parents first, which Oh    [00:13:05] Miko Lee: wow.   [00:13:06] Macy Tran: Love, shout out to her because    [00:13:09] Miko Lee: Thank you, auntie.    [00:13:10] Macy Tran: She did right. She did the hard work for me. I think I would’ve been a little more hesitant or would’ve taken a little bit more time to just process, like how to go about asking them, because there’s just a different power dynamic there. Sure. But because my auntie is more of a peer mm-hmm. And she had this idea and she has also worked at the restaurant mm-hmm. For many, many years of her life. I think it really spoke to my parents and I think it really was a moment for them to connect the ways that this restaurant is so important to not only our family and how we show up in community, but also to our community in Minneapolis. Mm-hmm. I have traveled all across the world and have met people who have eaten at Pho 79 and have told me stories of getting engaged there, of getting a tattoo of the, like restaurant on their, on their arm. The, the logo. Yeah, the logo. It’s crazy, you know, like people, and I’ve also heard generations of families like growing up on my parents’ food. Mm-hmm. As we share food with people and they support our business, it’s only because of our community that we’ve been able to survive this far you know?. My parents came to Minnesota with nothing, and it’s only because of the kindness of other Minnesotans and other Vietnamese Minnesotans that we were able to get anywhere.   [00:14:35] In this moment they saw that and they saw that. We can, we have these resources. This won’t be hard for us. We have everything here that we need. This is the channel in which we can work in. And yeah, they were just ready to do it. I think also my parents were ready to take a risk because the business was not doing well, we weren’t, there were not people coming out to eat. Everyone was scared to go out to eat. People were not really spending money. And this was really ever since the pandemic and the way that has impacted the restaurant industry and particularly immigrant businesses, and then also the George Floyd uprisings and the way that just the, violence and also the transformation that happened to the street that we were on Eat Street. It just really changed the ways people saw that corridor, that business corridor. And it was a really big business impact. And so my dad was just, I think, in a place where he was really willing to take a risk and a stand for what he believed in. And my mom as well. As a way to also just like. Really be present in community and show that, hey, like we are out here and we believe in loving our community and seeing the ways that people are showing up for our community as and for our business as well. And honestly, since the food distribution business has been steady and I think. My parents are, I mean, they’re definitely feeling relieved, but I’m just feeling so grateful that they stood on their values, you know, and they stood grounded in that. And as a result, like the community is reciprocating. and that is such a beautiful thing that I don’t, I think my dad took a risk not knowing what would happen, because more exposure is not always good. And I’ve been telling him that, you know, especially with the Vietnamese community being, of, of his genera generation being more right wing and more conservative. He recognizes that and he recognizes that we had to do something. So I feel so proud of them for just being really chill and okay, and actually impassioned and compelled to do something.   [00:16:57] Miko Lee: It sounds like it brought you a little bit closer with your family too.    [00:17:00] Macy Tran: Definitely. Definitely did. Yeah. I feel like me and my family have never really been able to sit at a table and talk about politics and what’s going on in the world without one of us just like getting activated or feeling defensive or not seeing each other. It is a terrible thing what has happened and what continues to happen in our city, under federal occupation and so much beauty and creativity and love has come from it. And I even feel that at the most micro scale between me and my parents.    [00:17:39] Miko Lee: Can you, share with us that are not located in Minnesota, what the experience is like of this federal occupation on a day to day? Like, we’re talking today on March 2nd, and I say that because our world, everything’s changing every day and this is gonna air on a separate day. So I wanna name that. So right now, what is it like when you’re just walking through the streets in downtown Minneapolis ?   [00:18:01] Macy Tran: Yeah. It’s interesting because when you ask me this, I think about my experience like a month ago and how different it was and it felt to walk around a month ago compared to now. A month ago. It. I was seeing a neighbor on every corner of major streets, like looking for ice. You know, I was seeing car caravans, honking and following ICE agents. It’s interesting ’cause like I actually just had a friend visit from Milwaukee and. She was nervous about ice. She’s Asian American as well, and she was like, should I be scared? What’s actually going on? And I told her, actually, yes, what’s going on is scary and violent. And I feel so safe because I am meeting neighbors I have never met before. I’m making small talk with people who are just. Out on the streets walking their dog in a way that they would not normally, I’m talking to business owners, we’re talking about the impacts of this occupation. Everywhere I go, there were eyes and that felt really powerful and strong. And now that operation Metro Surge is technically over they are supposed to be withdrawing ICE agents from the city. I would say there is definitely a decrease in the number of ICE agents in our city. Activity is much slower. However I would say out in the suburbs of Minneapolis and St. Paul, they are seeing action and enforcement from ICE agents. That is. Either at the, kind of the same amount that we were receiving or escalated. The concentration is higher out in the suburbs And so even though things were quieter in the city, they were elsewhere. And    [00:19:57] Miko Lee: yeah, I just saw videos this morning of protesters that were peacefully marching that just got tackled. Actually by Minnesota Sheriff’s department working in conjunction with ice. I know every state in every region is a little bit different. But I thought that was something that Governor Waltz was working on right?    [00:20:15] Macy Tran: So actually the city ordinance that you are talking about is actually on a Minneapolis City level. So that was a decision made by Mayor Fray. Oh, that’s only city. So it’s only MPD, Minneapolis Police Department, who is not supposed to assist in, federal and right. Federal enforcement. However, on a county level, that’s different. I see. So sheriffs might be working with, I know it’s like, so complic, what a mess complicated. I    [00:20:41] Miko Lee: know. This is the same, I mean, this is the same everywhere, right? Mm-hmm. It’s all broken down. Okay. So, so I think I hear you saying that ICE has kind of moved on with the targeted big city approach and they’re going out into the suburbs instead. Is that right?    [00:20:57] Macy Tran: Yes. There are still protestors, and observers going every day to the Whipple building. The Whipple building is where ICE agents are coming from, and so they have definitely recorded a decrease in the number of ICE vehicles. So the volume isn’t as high, but the cars are still coming and we’re still seeing enforcement and violence in our neighborhoods. Just the other day, just a few streets down, a person was abducted in our neighborhood in Minneapolis. And because the volume isn’t as high, they’re not as easily able to track. And so they’re working a lot more under the radar. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And their tactics have become just a lot more. Under the radar as well. In the early days in January, it was really easy to identify ICE out-of-state license plate, tinted windows. Big vehicles like super easy. Nowadays they’re putting like coexist bumper stickers and little things on their dashboards and like, you know, driving little sedans and it’s definitely not as easy and they’re moving a lot more covertly. And because Operation Metro Surge has technically decreased and because many of our frontline activists have been working at this for months and are getting tired. Mm-hmm. There is a really interesting transition period happening here. Mm-hmm. Where I think we’re all trying to align on what is the next.   [00:22:31] What’s the next step? Mm-hmm. How? How are we, what is the best way to move given that this is the way that ICE is operating now? Yeah,    [00:22:40] Miko Lee: right. Just    [00:22:41] Macy Tran: under reflection. Mm-hmm.    [00:22:42] Miko Lee: Under such sneaky circumstances, like what they recently did in New York at Columbia, showing up at Columbia University with a missing child picture of a little kid. And that’s how they got entry into the dorms, which is so wrong to terrible get a student. So that’s actually illegal to like misrepresent being a police officer when they’re not, they’re a nice officer and    [00:23:05] Macy Tran: mm-hmm.    [00:23:06] Miko Lee: Showing a photo, I mean, it’s so awful.    [00:23:08] Macy Tran: Mm-hmm.    [00:23:09] Miko Lee: I’m wondering how people that don’t live in Minnesota can get involved.   [00:23:14] Macy Tran: Hmm. The, greatest frontier currently that is in need of support is rent support. There are, probably hundreds of maybe thousands of people who are likely at risk of eviction in the Twin Cities, because they have not been able to work for the past two months without fear of being abducted. We’re calling on Governor Waltz for an eviction moratorium, which would prevent folks from being evicted. Governor Waltz is the only person who really has jurisdiction to implement an immediate rental moratorium, and he’s done that before during the pandemic, and so we’re trying to make arguments that this is. A state of emergency people are like not able, they weren’t able to work. Like people are going to get evicted putting calls to his office, sending emails. So that’s one way to get involved from abroad, uh, or not abroad outside of Minnesota, but also abroad if you’re abroad And listening to this. The other way was, is that there’s a lot of hyper-local organizing that is happening within Minneapolis that I can speak to every. Neighborhood and corner, I feel like, of Minneapolis is being accounted for usually by a team of just volunteer mutual aid groups who are fundraising for rent, who are fundraising for groceries who are fundraising for utilities.   [00:24:45] And these are all like live fundraising pages on the internet. And if you have even just 10, $20 to spare to help a Minneapolis resident, um, not get evicted in the next month. Um, every dollar matters. In this moment, rent is due. Soon, we’re just at the beginning of March. And if folks aren’t able to pay rent now and they haven’t been able to pay rent in the last couple of months, like this is only going to have a snowball effect. We cannot risk vulnerable neighbors migrants, immigrants being, like more of them being unhoused at this moment. We already in our city have so many unhoused people who are not being cared for by our city officials, who are having their encampments being taken down and who are already not receiving adequate support. Our system cannot handle an influx of more unhoused people and we can prevent this. I would say that is kind of the biggest frontier at the moment in terms of what I’m seeing organizing on the ground.    [00:26:01] Miko Lee: Would you have links that you could share with us definitely for rent support. That would be really great if, and I’ll definitely, I’ll add them to the Apex Express show notes so folks that wanna get involved can contribute and help support community. You wrote in your piece about books, lovely books and podcasts and things that inspired you, which I always love hearing about those things. And one of the books you wrote about was Rice and Baguette, A History of Food in Vietnam. Can you talk a little bit about it, how it deepened your understanding of food legacies and resistance?    [00:26:33] Macy Tran: Mm So I read that book while I was living in Vietnam actually. So it was really cool for me to, what I love about that book, it’s a little like academic. I will say that it is a food history like you are reading history, you know, it’s a little bit like dense at some points, um, for    [00:26:49] Miko Lee: the real foodie audience.    [00:26:51] Macy Tran: For real. I’m like, if, yeah, exactly. And luckily that’s me. I was into it. What I loved about it were, the legends, like there were some what I, so in Vietnam when I was living there, something that I loved and was learning more was that like Vietnamese people have so many legends about folk legends about food, like the origins of the watermelon,, the origins of our bunte cake, which is the cake that we eat, the sticky rice cake we eat during, lunar New Year. There are so many Food origin stories that I just did not grow up being raised on. And so, this book talked about some of like, how did pho even get started, you know, is pho even truly Vietnamese? It’s, that’s a debate I’m not gonna have right now. But. I loved just hearing the greater context in which all of this existed, especially not growing up with those stories and being,    [00:27:55] Miko Lee: Hey, wait, what is the origin of watermelon?    [00:27:58] Macy Tran: So it’s this like funny little. Story where, this prince essentially gets banished to an island with his wife. And then on this random island, he finds this like incredible fruit, the watermelon, and he’s like, whoa, this is so delicious. I want I must show this to the people back at home, but they won’t have me because I’m banished. And then he basically floats the watermelon back to the mainland and they find it and they’re like, oh my gosh, this is so incredible. We must, invite this man back to the mainland.    [00:28:38] Miko Lee: How did they know it was from him? Did he like carve his name in the watermelon?    [00:28:43] Macy Tran: I don’t know. It’s actually been a while since I’ve heard this story, so I could be just like. You know, I don’t know all the details. That’s    [00:28:50] Miko Lee: okay. That’s always better anyway.   [00:28:53] Macy Tran: just stories like that. I love to hear them. I also learned about what it was like to eat and cook during foreign occupation when, oh, you know, the French were colonizers mm-hmm. When the Chinese were colonizers. Mm-hmm. And just the incredible Vietnamese food ways that emerged from those periods of colonization. Mm-hmm. They were both brutal and violent and also full of adaptation and creativity and survival foods. And so the book just talked about all of that, and I just love knowing those stories that help me know the ways in which our people have been able to survive for this long and are now free under, foreign  occupation.    [00:29:40] Miko Lee: Speaking of, you mentioned creativity and adaptability, and you are a multihyphenate person, as an artist, as an organizer, as a writer, as a visual artist, collage maker, I’m wondering how your artistry impacts your organizing and vice versa. How do they speak to each other? How do they influence each other?    [00:30:01] Macy Tran: Hmm. I am someone who, when there is an issue or a problem that arises, I’m often just confronting it with what can I do? What can I like feasibly do? How can I show up? And I think my artistic practices actually help me slow down. Even the ways that I can show up in community and do things in community, I’m very responsive. I’m always like, okay let’s do a thing. Let’s organize it. Let’s get our hands dirty. I am out there, I am organizing people, you know, like tangibly. And I think the ways that my artistic practices partner with that is that my artistic practices help me reflect and remember and deepen and find spiritual grounding and purpose. my art is a way that I bridge conversations with my ancestors and I bridge what it means to know myself and be a person, a community member, a Vietnamese American daughter in this moment, right? And it reminds me of the skills that I have and wanna bring to the world. It also helps me create different narratives for understanding what’s happening and. For finding creative solutions and for collaborating with others. So I think I would honestly be so burnt out and exhausted and sad if it were not for my artistic practices. I think it’s because of my artistic practices that I find energy, that I find belonging, that I find meaning in the work that I’m doing.    [00:31:51] Miko Lee: I love that answer. Can you share, because you brought this up, can you share about a conversation or an interaction you’ve had with an ancestor and how that’s influenced you recently?   [00:32:03] Macy Tran: Hmm. That’s such a great question. I’m going to tie this answer into Lunar New Year because, lunar New Year is a time in which our material world and the spiritual world really can converge in a meaningful way, at least for me. And every year when I celebrate Lunar New Year, I will do something different. I deepen my practices. I just kind of deepen what I know about. Folk tradition and ancestor worship. And every year I learned new things and I wanna try new things. And so this year was the first year that I built a public altar space in my living room. Usually I just have it in my bedroom or in a small corner of my home somewhere that’s like usually private. But I built like. It wasn’t like a tiny little altar, like it was big, you know, like I had photos of all my relatives on there. I had flowers, I had five kinds of fruits. I had, you know, little, every time I ate a meal, I was putting a meal aside for my family to eat with me. And, Some cultures you don’t eat the food that you leave on the altar, but in my family we do. And the reason for that is because we get to become one with our ancestors. We get to embody what our ancestors are and eat as well and their spirits, and so this past Lunar New Year, I actually threw a, I had celebrations on both sides of the family. And then I organized a new year party for my chosen family who came from all walks of life. And the prompt for the party, it was a potluck. The prompt for the potluck was cook something or bring something that your ancestors would be just delighted to eat on the altar. And so we    [00:34:00] Miko Lee: love that.    [00:34:01] Macy Tran: Oh yeah. It was so sweet. People came out with their best work, I should say, like the food was fantastic. Our ancestors were eating well, and I was sitting there. And this altar was full of tiny little plates of food, beautiful flowers. I also asked people to bring pictures, photos of their ancestors or people that they wanna honor. Incense were lit. The room was filled with incense smoke, and I was just, there was a moment where I was just, kinda in the corner of the room just watching, you know, and I had a feeling like, wow, all of our ancestors are hanging out right now. Not only are me and my chosen family, you know, building a community and belonging for ourselves but also like. I could have never, and probably they could have never predicted that my friend’s like Jewish grandpa was hanging out with my Vietnamese grandmother and grandfather, you know, or yeah, my friends like grandparents from Antigua are now hanging out with like my family members and it’s, it was just a moment where I just felt not just the joy.   [00:35:16] And love in the space of connecting with my real, like my friends in that moment. But also just the miraculousness of what it meant to hold all of our ancestors in that space. And so, after that I ended up writing a piece on my substack, actually as a letter to my ancestors. I, I kept the altar up for a week, a week and a half. And on the last day I was ready to take it down and move it back upstairs into my room. But on the last day, I thought, I’m gonna light the incense one more time. And have my ancestors in the space as I write this piece to them. There were so many things I wanted to say to them. And also at the same time, I felt like as I was writing, they were saying things to me, this is what I have to teach you in this moment, is kind of what they were saying to me. This is like, this is what it’s like to celebrate that under occupation. This is what it was like when we thought it wasn’t even possible to celebrate Tet. Like we had literally nothing but rice and water and yet we still did, and my grandma recently passed a I mean, it’s not so recent anymore, but it’s been just over a year now. And she was like, One of the first like major deaths of the elder generation in my family. And Tet was the time that I could commune with her and share love with her. And, I could just feel her presence in the space and I would even, memories felt like a way that she was talking to me. The memory of just the crackle of her sesame balls, like she made the best sesame balls. They were like. Thin and crispy and fluffy, but also like so like they were not skimping on the mung bean on the inside. It was fantastic. So I’m just like, I haven’t had a sesame ball from her in over a year, but I can remember how it tastes and feels, and my mouth and that memory itself is a message from her. To remember what has fed me through so many years, and how important it is to just remember the, not only just the foods that we eat, but the people that have loved that food into existence. And now me, you know,    [00:37:38] Miko Lee: have you made it the dish, the sesame balls.    [00:37:43] Macy Tran: I actually have her recipe books, so I planned to I just didn’t have time, this past Tet, but me and my brother were going to, and then I think we decided we wanted to do it on just like on a lower key day, like instead of like in the midst of just like so much family celebration, there was so much to prepare and we were like, let’s just plan a low key weekend where it’s just me and you and there’s no timeline and we don’t have to get this anywhere and they don’t have to be perfect. Like    [00:38:14] Miko Lee: that sounds lovely. So it’s personal and it’s family and Exactly. And if for a one year anniversary, death anniversary is coming up, that might be a great time to honor her.    [00:38:22] Macy Tran: Exactly. Exactly.    [00:38:24] Miko Lee: I’m wondering what was like some standout dishes from that lovely event to you?    [00:38:29] Macy Tran: Ooh. I mean, I will talk about the dish I made.   [00:38:33] Miko Lee: Okay.    [00:38:36] Macy Tran: Which I thought was fantastic and I think my friends also thought were delicious. Was delicious. Um, but a dish that is commonly eaten during the lunar new year for Vietnamese people is a tit ka, which is a caramelized, braised pork belly. This caramelized, braised pork was stewing for probably three hours. Wow. And so, yeah, and I used coconut water with it. I didn’t like, straight up coconut water and it    [00:39:04] Miko Lee: no Coca-Cola.    [00:39:06] Macy Tran: No Coca-Cola not in this one. And I just made a huge, huge pot and it was basically almost all gone by the end of the night. So that was like a really good feeling. Um, my brother made an incredible duck heart lap. He works at Diane’s Place, actually, it’s a famous Hmong restaurant in Minneapolis. And they processed duck on the menu. And so he had like access to all these duck organs and he made an incredible loup that he brought to the party. And my, one of my little sisters, Iris, she’s Puerto Rican and she made like tostones, like fried plantains and then she also made Puerto Rican rice, and she, she made like three or four dishes. So like, people really went above and beyond for their ancestors. I could really, I mean, it was probably like 20 people who came to this party, so there were so many dishes and they were all. So good. So I, I don’t wanna, once I get into it, I’m gonna go into it, so I’m not gonna chat your ear off.    [00:40:13] Miko Lee: Sounds lovely. Sounds yummy. Mm-hmm. And my last question is, I’m wondering what manifestation for the year of the horse you have for yourself.    [00:40:23] Macy Tran: The 18 million rising essay that I wrote came, it was right before the lunar new year that it got published. And it came during a time where I was already thinking a lot about my creative practice and how in, in relationship my creative practice in relationship with also the ways that I organize and the ways that I cook and, organize around food. And when this opportunity for this essay emerged and just the way it has been received has been such an honor, like, because I haven’t written for myself, you know, in so long and like really with my own voice I just didn’t realize that people were going to resonate with it so much and find like an invitation to engage in food justice themselves and their own ancestry. And also the ways that it made them think about food and their relationship to food. And it was such a blessing for me to receive that resonance from people, you know, and to receive, just the stories that I’ve heard and the way it spoke to them. And I felt like that has been a blessing for me to just really expand my creative practice and be more public with it. I’m like, dang, if this little thing that I wrote impacted people in the way that they think about the world, like. I have so many more ideas I wanna share and like be in partnership with others about.   [00:41:57] And I just launched my Substack, right after the Lunar New Year and I was like, all right, you’re the fire horse. Let’s freaking go. I am ready, I am running. So, I just wanna be creating so much and like act manifesting and actualizing a lot of the dreams that I have, my creative dreams that I have continued to put on the back burner. Things about hosting supper clubs and doing more work around my parents’ restaurant, like helping them create narrative around the restaurant and sharing our restaurant story with people. And just using my words and experiences as a way to connect with the world and also be open to the ways that people wanna connect with me. So that’s kind of the ways that I’m, I’m seeing this year unfold already, and it’s already started with a bang. I also wanna add that year of the fire horse for me is just a lot about movement and progress. And so in this sense movement, I think of social movements and the ways that social this particular social movement against ICE in our city will fundamentally. Impact us for the next lunar year. It happened right at the beginning of the lunar New Year and it’s going to have deep effects into the year, and we will forever be changed by this. And I am so excited to see the ways in which we harness this energy for transformation, for care into something that’s really meaningful.   [00:43:37] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for joining us on Apex Express. It was a delight to talk with you.    [00:43:42] Macy Tran: Thank you, Miko. This was so great. Thanks for having me.   [00:43:45] Miko Lee: Next up, listen to researcher professor, Dr. Milkie Vu, speak on her exploration on Asian Americans and food insecurities. Welcome, Dr. Milkie Vu, assistant professor at Northwestern. Welcome so much to Apex Express.    [00:44:04] Dr. Milkie Vu: Thank you. I’m delighted to be here.    [00:44:07] Miko Lee: Dr. Milkie is a mixed methods researcher focusing on community engagement and health issues, and I’m excited to talk with you today. I wanna start by first asking the question that I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   [00:44:24] Dr. Milkie Vu: My people are the Vietnamese community, and when I think of my people, the first word that comes to my mind is resilience. I was raised in Vietnam. I speak Vietnamese fluently and I embrace my culture very deeply. I carry the memory of my parents and grandparents who have lived to colonization multiple world. And the challenge of post-war poverty and the ability to, endure all these hardship is the legacy that I bring with me and in my day to day life it acts as a personal life of hope for me and then professionally in the. Work that I do is really a foundation and it drives my dedication and commitment to working on health solution with Asian American and immigrant communities who have similar stories of hardship, but also perseverance.   [00:45:19] Miko Lee: Thank you so much. I really appreciate how your background has informed the work that you’re doing, and I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about this study, this scoping review on food insecurity among Asian Americans. Can you one first start off by breaking down what a scoping review is.   [00:45:37] Dr. Milkie Vu: Yeah, I’m happy to talk about that. So a scoping review is essentially a methodology that we use to be able to summarize existing scientific literature and try to understand how this literature. Answer research questions that we have.   [00:45:56] Miko Lee: Can you tell me what inspired this study?    [00:45:59] Dr. Milkie Vu: I’ve done community engaged research with, Asian American population for over a decade. In doing so, I have come to realize , as an anecdotal evidence, how food insecurity is a issue in the community. And yet that’s very little that has been, done in terms of research or policy that target this problem., So for example, the US Department of Agriculture, will publish annually a report on food insecurity in America and it will include several, racial and ethnic populations, but Asian Americans are frequently ommitted from that report. So, you know, at the national level, that data doesn’t exist, which then, makes it very difficult to understand what is the severity of the problem and what are some of the solutions that could be done to address them. So that’s why we were interested in doing a deeper dive into summarizing the literature too be able to see what has been done about this problem and what are some of the barriers that exist, towards food security for community members, and what are some of the literature gaps? Our review was published in 2024 was the first scientific review of the literature on food insecurity among Asian Americans.    [00:47:27] Miko Lee: And what did your study uncover?    [00:47:31] Dr. Milkie Vu: We documented several important findings. There is a lack of existing data on this problem. Due to this myth of Asian Americans being the model minority. Assuming that Asian Americans are uniformly successful socioeconomically and thus not experiencing, any challenge including food insecurity. One of the things that we found is the importance of data disaggregation and looking at food insecurity in different Asian origin groups. We found that food insecurity really varied. So for example, if you look at some groups like Japanese Americans, we found the prevalence of between two to 11% of the population reporting food insecurity. But then if you look at some of the Southeast Asian groups, for example, Filipinos or Hmong American or Vietnamese, the rates are much higher. So the studies that we found report, between eight to 41% of food insecurity and among Filipino population. Close to 48% for more Hmong American, and then between 14 or 28% for Vietnamese Americans, so much higher than the rates for other groups.   [00:48:48] Data Dion is important and there shouldn’t be this grouping of different Asian groups in research because then it really erased like the struggles specific communities with food insecurity. I think the other finding that was really important is looking at more systemic or structural barriers that prevent people from being food secure. Our review found that limited English proficiency is a important driver of food insecurity. The lack of appropriate language services, whether that’s food pantry or for things like snap navigation. These could be important target point infusion policy or interventions that could help address food insecurity, community members. We also look at a couple of qualitative studies that found really interesting things. So for example, even when Asian American community members do use food assistance programs like snap, the benefits are often not sufficient. And they have a negative experience. There’s also fear of how that might negatively impact the immigration status or application. Those are important barriers that should be acknowledge.   [00:50:08] Miko Lee: Some of these numbers are so high. You mentioned 48% with Hmong folks with, it’s just so surprising, and I wonder if there’s a sense of the why some of these communities have a higher food insecurity than others.    [00:50:21] Dr. Milkie Vu: Yeah, one of the things that we did point out in the conclusion was the need for just more studies focusing on these, smaller Asian groups or smaller Asian population that are done in like the appropriate language to be. From some of the experience I’ve had, part of it is probably shaped by, the historical conditions to which some of these, communities might have come to the us. For example, thinking about my community Vietnamese, coming to America as refugees, fleeing persecution or free fleeing war and how that, historical conditions might create structural and socioeconomic challenge in Britain, in the community. I am also curious about is the availability of service and program that are linguistically appropriate or, providing culturally relevant food for these communities. So those are important points that we can hypothesize, but obviously more research is needed to understand, the root cause of these challenge and how to address them.   [00:51:28] Miko Lee: And were you focused on specific regions or this was national?    [00:51:34] Dr. Milkie Vu: I’m really glad that you asked about this. So the review itself is, summarizing all published literature focusing on Asian Americans. All of the studies take place in the us. A lot of the, studies probably focus on data that are from the coast. So either on Asian American, on the east coast or the west coast. , But we looked at the study like from a nationwide angle and I’m also happy to talk about some of the new committee organizations in Chicago looking at food insecurity and community-based solutions to address that among Asian Americans. Part of the motivation for the follow-up study was just thinking about the lack of data focusing on the Midwest or Chicago where I live.    [00:52:20] Miko Lee: Please, I’d love to hear more about that . [00:52:23] Dr. Milkie Vu: The COVID pandemic, had brought a lot challenges for food insecurity. For people nationwide in general, but then for Asian American, there’s also this, so what I call like the double, almost like a double pandemic, like the waves of entire Asian violence and hate crimes. And so thinking about how that impact food insecurity in general among, Asian American community members. About two years ago, we interviewed around, 13 organizations in Chicago. All of them are either community based organizations, social services or food pantry, working with, primarily with Asian American community members, from diverse groups: korean, Chinese, Vietnamese, Filipino, south Asian, Mongolian, et cetera throughout Chicago. And the question that we asked them was, thinking about what programs they have offered during the COVID pandemic that aim at reducing food insecurity among community members. How did they implement this program? Who are some of the vulnerable populations served by the program? How did the pandemic as far as anti-Asian racism impact the program organization? That was the first study that looked at how community organization in Chicago help address this issue of insecurity on this, the COVID pandemic.   [00:53:57] Miko Lee: And so what is the next step for this study or what is the next piece that you’re working on as connected to this?    [00:54:05] Dr. Milkie Vu: Yeah. Think about the role of the community organization as grassroots organizations that work from the ground up , as opposed to more top down program structure. They’re doing a lot of the heavy lifting to help community members address food insecurity, because they know the community very well. They are able to provide the in language service that community members need. They’re also trusted by community members. So a lot of the time,, certain populations especially say if those with limited their English proficiency or, more newly arrived immigrants, might feel more comfortable going here as opposed to going to this organization as opposed to, another one that are more generic and don’t have the staff that speak the right language. I think the other thing is, staff with the similar cultural backgrounds are able to understand. There was one quote from the study that I did in Chicago. That stuck with me. When we tell them you could go to the food bank, the American food is not quite tailored to their taste. So they will get a big chunk of cheese and they will be like, what is this? Nobody wants to eat this. Again, thinking about the role of committee organization as so important in knowing the language, knowing the cultural preferences. And then just thinking of ways that we can further support, the programs and operations that they do. This is a really challenging time for nonprofits, social service organization, both in terms of providing food as well as other social service to Asian American and immigrant communities. How can research from a place like, researchers, from academia like me, are able to partner with them to further the service that they do and be able to find the funding that support them and community members. I think that’s the important step for me.   [00:56:02] Miko Lee: Dr. Vu, how can folks find out more about your work?    [00:56:06] Dr. Milkie Vu: Yeah, In order to understand more about the work that we do, so we have a website, for our lab that frequently include, you know, like our current projects as well as publications. So you can go to site, so SI ts.northwestern.edu/vu group. and you’ll be able to find more information about the research that we published. We’ve also recently, in the beginning of the year start, to find ways to disseminate research on social media. So we also have a Facebook group for our lab that disseminates our research findings as well as include information about the community members and partners Other trainees in the lab that make this work possible. The labs Facebook group is at facebook.com/maybe give research. and then you can always reach out to me via my email milkie.vu@northwestern.edu So I’m glad to connect with people who have similar research interests or would like to learn more about the work that we do.   [00:57:06] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for joining us and sharing your information about your important work that you’re doing on research with Asian American community. Appreciate hearing from you.    [00:57:15] Dr. Milkie Vu: Thank you so much.   [00:57:18] Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night.   The post APEX Express – 6.4.26 – Food Justice appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 5.28.26 – Building South Asian Power 28.05.2026 59мин

  APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. On this episode, host Miata Tan is joined by guests from the South Asian Coalition, an emergent national network committed to collective liberation and solidarity. Together they explore what it means to build South Asian political power in this moment—and how cross-movement solidarity can shape a more just, multiracial future. Learn more about the South Asian Coalition Website | Instagram | Policy Priorities   The South Asian Coalition was convened in October 2024 by: Manavi, Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, Muslims for Just Futures, and Raksha.   Transcript ​[00:00:00]  Miata Tan : Hello and welcome. You are tuning in to APEX Express, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host, Miata Tan. Tonight, we’re focusing on South Asian communities and the organizers working to build political power. South Asians are one of the fastest-growing racial groups in the United States, Over six million people [00:01:00] and roughly a quarter of the Asian American population. South Asian is used as a broad umbrella term for people with roots in countries such as India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka, and sometimes Afghanistan. Though exact definitions can vary across communities and organizations. And as we’ll talk about tonight, within the South Asian diaspora who call the United States home, you have a mix of nationalities, religion, immigration status, and more. Tonight, I’m joined by four people working to address the issues impacting South Asian communities in the US and beyond. At a time when questions of belonging, safety, and political power continue to shape immigrant communities across the country, South Asian organizers are building new forms of solidarity while also grappling with the diversity and complexity within their own communities. The first voice you’ll hear is Sabiha Basrai Sabiha is the daughter of Muslim Gujarati immigrants and has been [00:02:00] organizing with the Bay Area-based Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, or ASATA, since 2009. Here’s Sabiha helping us to understand how South Asian political organizing has evolved in the United States, especially in the post 9/11 era Sabiha Basrai: Thanks for the opportunity to do some reflection this year marks the 25th anniversary of 9/11, which was a real a political flashpoint that absolutely changed my life because I was a 19-year-old college student trying to figure out a lot of things about how the world works and my place in it, and my own identity and the multiple identities I hold. Uh, and also where my responsibilities lied in solidarity, not just with other Muslims who were being targeted, but our broad immigrant diasporas and allies, uh, who have experienced discrimination in different forms from the state. So thinking about the ways in which- organizing happened in the, months and years after 9/11 to support immigrant [00:03:00] rights that was really a time in which new projects formed, um, or existing projects kind of found a new focus. ASATA as an organizing project, as a group of volunteers, has both done things like shown up to support folks being called up for the NCR’s Special Registration Program and also participate in direct action protests in solidarity against the war, and has continued to be part of coalitional work regionally in the Bay Area. And, you know, more recently, uh, when we think about the ways in which our communities under, are under increased pressure with the Trump administration’s immigrant policies, there have been also opportunities to build more relationships and make sure that as we advocate for our community’s rights, we’re doing so in formation with others, not just focusing on one particular bad piece of legislation, but connecting that to a larger story, to really build towards liberation for all of us. I’ll [00:04:00] just add, too that those relationships that were kind of seeded and invested in in that moment of crisis and anxiety and fear have endured in many ways to now. The fact that that very ecosystem is actually growing in this moment is a testament to the relationships that were built in those days. Miata Tan : That was Sabiha Basrai grounding us in the history of South Asian political organizing in the US. As she mentioned, for many South Asians, 9/11 marked a particularly mobilizing moment, one that helped our communities organized and built solidarity. To help us better understand how that moment influenced the evolution of progressive South Asian activism, we now turn to Deepa Iyer, South Asian American writer, strategist, and lawyer. Deepa leads projects on solidarity and social movements at Building Movement Project and brings more than 25 years of experience in Asian American organizing and advocacy Deepa Iyer: I think that I would say that there [00:05:00] were, looking back, a couple of trends and themes that we can pull out from that time. one is that there was definitely a shift in the general consciousness of South Asian communities about our place in American society, our understanding of racism, Islamophobia, and also the role of the state. And so we had a situation where both hate violence and state violence were actually being endured by South Asian, Muslim, Arab communities. And so I think that there was a shift in the ways in which our communities began to think about ourselves in the United States. A second piece is the growth of a field, an ecosystem of South Asian organizations in the wake of the attacks and the global war on terror. So we began to see a lot of groups that were actually formed or becoming more staffed up in the weeks and months after 9/11. For example, the Sikh [00:06:00] Coalition was actually birthed the evening of the attacks, and an organization that I was close to, SALT, was also emerging and forming in the months after 9/11 as well. So we began to see that a, a field was growing. And the third, sort of theme I would point out that Sabihah alluded to is this sense of solidarity, that instead of sort of being siloed as, you know, South Asians working within just our communities and just talking about certain specific issues, there was real sense that we needed to collaborate and build bridges with Arab, Muslim, Sikh, and, Black communities in the United States to understand the trajectory of racism and xenophobia, and how they were all kind of coming together in the weeks after 9/11. Those three themes and trends are what, when I look back, I see coming up over and over again in our messaging and in our advocacy. Miata Tan : [00:07:00] That was Deepa Iyer, as you heard from Deepa, collaboration across movements was essential in helping South Asian communities to understand and respond to the waves of xenophobia in the wake of 9/11. Now we turn to Rajiv Narayan and Farah Mahesri, who lead national policy work at the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, or ASATA together they launched and now co-lead ASATA’s new political base building group, ASATA Power. Rajiv begins by reflecting on what South Asian communities are facing today and what has and hasn’t changed since 9/11. Rajiv Narayan: I think unfortunately many of the challenges present in the early 2000s remain today. They take new form. Some have evolved and transformed, but they were ex- existed in, in much the same form following 9/11. One of the, the instances in which I, I learned about that is at the recent South Asian Coalition convening where we did this exercise in mapping a number of [00:08:00] historical and present day events, as well as a future vision of things that are important to our organizations and to our movements. And something that we reflected on together in the convening is that a number of these attacks on our communities have waxed and waned, uh, at different periods in time, dating back to the, the 1960s and truly at, even at the beginning of, you know, the 19th century and the late 18th century. And so, to answer your question specifically, in the early 2000s, like Deepa and Sabihah mentioned, we’ve dealt with, uh, an incredible expression of Islamophobia of, uh, anti-Brown and anti-Black racism and hate speech. There was a, in, in general a skepticism and unwelcoming of South Asian communities. And unfortunately with the current federal administration and political discourse in our country, uh, a number of those same themes are relevant today and take on similar forms, whether they’re in [00:09:00] response to what the federal administration is doing in countries like Iran or previous administrations have done in Afghanistan or Pakistan. I think all of those events underscore all the more so that it’s important for our organizations to, organize together, much as we did in the early 2000s, to address these harms, to remember what they look like at previous stages of history, and to fight to prevent them again from happening in the future. Miata Tan : Farah, perhaps you could speak a bit to the organizing. What did that look like, a few years ago, and what does that look like today? How has that changed? Farah Mahersi: Rajiv and I started ASATA Power a couple of years ago specifically to be able to look forward to practice radical imagination, and fight for not just protection of our communities, which we will always do. That is built into our DNAs. It’s what we know. It’s how we move. And also to fight for things that we want, to build the world that we want to live in so that we’re not constantly caught in these cycles. And as we’re doing [00:10:00] that, we are learning a lot about how organizing is happening today, the BLM movement, Black Lives Matter, and incredible street power, but also that movement’s ability to change our national discourse and change what is baseline, what we should be demanding, and how we are visioning a future that is built on policies governance and hard material changes in our lives is profound. beyond that, also the Palestine solidarity movement over the last couple of years has rewritten every book about organizing. And so I think that it is an interesting moment of both a little bit of sadness, to be honest, that we are still fighting some of these same fights and we are still in some of these same dynamics that we have been for 25 years, and the profound opportunity that we have to build power and to look forward, and I think that is, more true in the Bay Area than it is almost everywhere else. Uh, because of what our workforce looks like, because of the sheer [00:11:00] amount of wealth that is accumulated in this little corner of our world, and also when you look around at the political power and people who hold political power or are running for political power and elected office around the Bay Area, you could really start to see not just how South Asians are increasingly politicized and increasingly looking to build electoral and political power, but also s- very specifically progressive political power. And so when you look to Congress now, The progressive caucus is full of South Asian progressives who are leading the charge, who are doing some of this critical work, that’s part of our organizing strategy, is to be part of those conversations and to continue to push and to continue to, again, advocate for policies and changes at that big level to make the future we want possible. Miata Tan : I love that. Coming together to dream and really fight. Rajiv, you are leading this work at the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action. Can you speak more to why the Bay Area [00:12:00] is a, like, a distinct microcosm in this progressive South Asian movement? Rajiv Narayan: Of course. So Farah and I, we both work together at ASATA Power, and ASATA is sort of political power building project within the auspices of, uh, ASATA which has been operating in the Bay Area for more than 25 years now. I think what makes the Bay Area a microcosm of the South Asian diaspora is a tremendous amount of diversity and, uh, a set of interrelated intersectional challenges. So you have, uh, folks of South Asian descent with all different immigration histories. So I’m, for example, a person, um, who has birthright citizenship in the United States as I was born here. But there are folks who immigrated here, like my parents and had to attain their citizenship uh, through the, the US legal system, and folks beyond that who are refugees or asylees or are undocumented due to a variety of political and social and economic pressures. And so we all coexist in this same space across an economic gradient. So there are folks [00:13:00] who are very well compensated in the tech sectors and healthcare sectors sometimes, uh, characterized, uh, as part of a, a model minority myth, um, as representatives of the South Asian diaspora, um, within the San Francisco Bay Area and the United States broadly. And then there are whole variety of South Asians who are working in less well-compensated, often quite exploited industries. For example, in, care industries as people who are providing childcare or senior care services, people who are working in the restaurant industry folks who are lesser compensated within healthcare as well as in tech industries and other ways. Of course, those economic positions interact with the political and legal system. So for example, even if a person might be, um, well-compensated in a tech job in the Bay Area, um, which they attained by way of an H-1B visa that person might be subject to exploitative labor conditions based on the, uh, the legal configuration of how H-1B [00:14:00] visas are treated. For example, that you depend on your employer for your immigration status in this country, which changes the worker-employer relationship in a way that makes it very difficult to identify workplace abuses. beyond that, we also have a diverse range of South Asians across the age gradient. So we have folks who are quite young, who are in Gen Z, and are entering politics in a completely different way than somebody like myself or Deepa entered politics at, in earlier in, in our lives and experience it today, which provides an opportunity for us to learn from earlier generations and to also share lessons from our political experience. So like with many things, the Bay Area has it all, the good and the bad, and ASATA and ASATA Power work within that, that space to identify opportunities for solidarity. Miata Tan : That was Rajiv Narayan and Farah Mehestri. Through their work with the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, or ASATA, Rajiv and Farah are helping to build South Asian political power here in the Bay Area and [00:15:00] nationwide. The ASATA team and all four of our guests tonight are connected through the South Asian Coalition, a network of local and national organizations focused on advancing policy issues affecting South Asian communities and building shared spaces for strategy and collaboration. To better understand this evolving movement of progressive South Asian action, let’s return to Deepa Iyer, who shares how and why this coalition came together Deepa Iyer: Yeah. I really appreciate Rajiv bringing up, um, how- what is happening in the Bay Area is part of a larger movement. And what I would say about this ecosystem, this field that I talked about earlier, and I’ve been able to understand this through the course of the work I’ve done, but also a book I’ve written about post 9/11 America, is that so much happens on the coasts, and we often forget that there are organizations and are communities that are really [00:16:00] growing in other parts of the country, right? You know, I grew up in Kentucky, um, and there are places like Kentucky and Indiana where you are seeing, um, more South Asians settle and build their lives there. So one of the things that I think has been important in thinking about as we come up on this 25th anniversary of 9/11 is how our coalition of South Asian groups, how that field has grown with these additional organizations, in geographic areas that are different, as well as the ways in which folks are organizing. So now we’ve got, for example, groups that are working with Bhutanese refugees or Nepali-speaking community members, or groups that are organizing around the exploitation of community members based on caste. These are, um, really important movement interventions and organizations that are growing. one of the key aspects of network infrastructure is the ability to connect with each other, [00:17:00] not to flatten our experiences and say we’re all the same, but to actually find some threads of commonality in our shared struggle and our experiences, and to also know that together as collectives, as Farah mentioned earlier, we can actually build the futures that we wanna see. One of the really, I think, inspiring pieces of coalition building that I’ve been fortunate to work with and support along with, um, everyone here is the South Asian Coalition, which is this emergent network of now 35 organizations around the country, and this coalition really seeks to build relationships and strengthen relationships, engage in peer learning and skills building, make it clear that there are certain policy issues that we need to uplift and to advocate around, and to create opportunities and pathways for solidarity with larger movements. This coalition and the infrastructure that it’s been [00:18:00] creating is a way for us to look at our ecosystem of South Asian organizing in this moment, and to really see what happens when we galvanize our power collectively. Miata Tan : and Deepa, can you share a bit about the various co-conveners that make up the South Asian Coalition?  Deepa Iyer: So the South Asian Coalition, um, as we’ve mentioned, is this emergent network of groups that address various issues but are aligned around shared values. And the groups that really came together to co-convene it include Asad the Power, as well as Muslims for Just Futures, Raksha, which is an organization in the South, and Manavi, which is based in New Jersey. And these four organizations really had the vision to set up the structure for the coalition. the organization where I work at, Building Movement Project, supports the coalition through infrastructure, so providing facilitation, providing resources, policy analysis, and creating the container to support [00:19:00] movements in that way, which is so critical for coalitions. Miata Tan : That was Deepa Iyer a South Asian American writer, strategist, and lawyer. after the break, we’ll hear more from organizers and advocates working to address issues shaping South Asian communities today. Stay with us  [00:20:00] [00:21:00] that was “Phenom” by Thao and the Get Down Stay Down. You are tuned into [00:22:00] APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host, Miada Tan. Tonight, I’m joined by four people who are working to address the issues impacting South Asian communities in the US and beyond. Back in March, organizers, advocates, and community leaders from across the country gathered in Washington, DC, for a national convening focused on the challenges and possibilities facing South Asian communities today. Here’s Sabiha Basrai with the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, or ASATA. She speaks about how this coalition of progressive South Asian groups formed and why this moment called for it. Sabiha Basrai: So this new emergent South Asian Coalition had its first convening in Washington, DC in March, and this was, the culmination of, a little over a year of monthly Zoom calls which started because [00:23:00] we knew we were on the verge of a Trump re-election. Uh, we knew that there was this ecosystem of South Asian activism and organizing across the country. Some of us knew each other from previous collaborations, but some of us didn’t. New organizations were forming, and there was this recognition that we need each other in order to face what’s coming, and we are stronger together. And we know that being South Asian is not a monolith, uh, that we deal with within our own communities based on labor exploitation, caste discrimination, anti-Muslim violence. And when we talk to each other, when we connect, we give ourselves the best chance at being able to move through those pieces of pain and build towards a future where we can all feel a sense of belonging, feel represented, and an agency in shaping that future together. So what started with a few conversations with a few folks, grew steadily [00:24:00] and, um, and through some intentional work to, to kind of invite each other in, which is of course an ongoing process, we were able to unite under this umbrella called the South Asian Coalition. Uh, we committed to some shared political points of unity and kind of community agreements to really set some expectations with one another on how we could move well in formation. And, made sure we had pathways to share information with each other so that someone like me working in Oakland could understand what, uh, someone working in Texas or in Georgia was facing, what local policy positions they were needing to, to navigate. And, uh, we could give each other advice, give each other moral support, and also sharpen our political understandings. So, uh, these kind of, uh, regular check-ins was one way of just understanding what we were all facing and feeling connected. But, actually being together in person was remarkable. I cannot overstate how much of a difference it makes to be able to share [00:25:00] space and see each other as whole people and not just representatives of a particular organization or a particular issue area, and, have those in-between moments where we actually build, build some friendships. One of the things that was also really important for me to understand when we met together was just how important that intergenerational work is. we had folks in the room who were, in their 50s and 60s who had been doing this work for decades. And we had folks in the room who were in their 20s for whom 9/11 was, something that happened in history. The conversations that were happening across generations informed the way that we think about ourselves as a coalition and helped me also to let go of some of the constraints that, kept my imagination small about what we were capable of. I was really grateful that so many people attended and chose to prioritize that work. It’s hard, you know, to take a pause from The daily work to leave, fly to [00:26:00] DC take those risks as well because for many of us, uh, going through TSA is no small thing. There’s a lot of harassment and racism that still permeate, you know, these institutions. So not to minimize just the effort that ta- it takes to convene and really make the most of our time together. One of the things that we did while we were in DC together was hold a congressional briefing to really, uh, amplify and share the issues that were coming up for our communities that folks were already working very hard on. Miata Tan : That was Sabiha Basrai with the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, or ASATA. Now let’s return to Rajiv Narayan, another member of the ASATA team and co-lead of their political action group, ASATA Power. Rajiv will take you inside the congressional briefing that Sabiha mentioned and how South Asian organizers from across the country shared the issues shaping their communities and what support is needed now Rajiv Narayan: We in ASATA Power worked in [00:27:00] collaboration with a number of the organizations in the South Asian coalition, to put together a congressional briefing on the issue of South Asians and immigration in the heart of Washington, DC, in the halls of Congress in Capitol Hill. And we were fortunate to do so in collaboration with Representatives Pramila Jayapal and Grace Meng. we had a number of, speakers representing, different perspectives and political struggles within the South Asian, uh, space in the United States, especially as it relates to immigration. So, for example, we had representatives from the Dalit Solidarity Forum talking about the plight of oppressed workers, caste-oppressed workers, in New Jersey working in a Hindu temple.  ​ Dr Roja Sunganthy-Singh – Dalit: I stand here as a Dalit, formerly known as an untouchable in India’s caste system, speaking for over two hundred skilled Dalit artisans who were brought to the US from India to build the largest Hindu temple in New Jersey. In their words, ” We are the Indian stone workers of America, workers [00:28:00] rescued by the FBI in twenty twenty-one from forced labor conditions constructing the BAPS temple in New Jersey. we were brought to the US on R one visas and compelled to perform construction labor for over eighty-seven hours a week and paid just a dollar twenty an hour. Rajiv Narayan: We heard from, um, the executive director of the Sikh Coalition talking about Sikh truck drivers and religious workers and their experience under the federal regime’s, uh, rule-making efforts. Harman Singh – Sikh Coalition: Uh, Punjabi Sikhs began entering the US trucking industry in large numbers during the nineteen eighties, and Sikh truck drivers and business owners have played a critical role in addressing driver shortages over the past several years. Unfortunately, Sikhs in this critical industry have become the subject of harmful rhetoric and policy from this current administration. These drivers are being excluded solely because of their specific immigration status and regardless of their driving histories, skills, knowledge, or English proficiency.  Rajiv Narayan: We heard from, the executive director of Asian Refugees United, who [00:29:00] spoke about the experience of Bhutanese refugees who have been rendered stateless by the current administration’s, deportation efforts Robin Gurung – ARU: Because of the ethnic cleansing campaign of Bhutan government, more than hundred thousand Bhutanese citizens were forced to flee the country. For twenty years, I lived in a refugee camp in Nepal. In 2008, the government of this country came to rescue us. We were promised safety and security. But last year, that promise was broken. As of March 2025, over seventy of our community members are deported to Bhutan, the same country that persecuted us and made us refugees. These community members are kidnapped from their homes and jobs. They have been taken from their routine ICE check-ins. We know due process was not followed. Rajiv Narayan: We also heard from the executive director of Raksha, a domestic violence organization based in the Southern United States that has played an instrumental role in supporting South Asians who have been the victims [00:30:00] and who are now survivors of domestic and intimate partner violence, about the needs for supporting these kinds of organizations, with federal dollars and through the grant-making systems conditions. Aparna Bhattacharyya – Raksha: For thirty years, we have supported community members in navigating interpersonal violence, but also waves of racism and policy backlash.  South Asian and Indo-Caribbean survivors need safe places to turn, safe places that speak their language, understand their unique immigration and cultural needs. Raksha recently had $700,000 in OVC grants terminated by DOGE. additionally, we are still waiting for OVW sexual assault cultural funds for five months, where we have gotten no determination of whether we’re getting that funding or not. Five months. Rajiv Narayan: We also heard from, the director of the South Asian American Justice Collaborative, which is currently, before the US Supreme Court in the birthright citizenship case, and [00:31:00] filed this foundational amicus brief detailing the story of South Asians in the United States going back to the 1600s. Klapana Peddibhotla – SAAJCO: Our brief pushes back against this notion that we are forever foreign.  South Asians actually arrived on these shores in the sixteen hundreds, and by the seventeen hundreds, South Asians were already asserting their rights here. In an Afghan immigrant actually fought in the Civil War in the Union Army. by the late nineteenth century, the largest farming group in Central California was formed by Punjabis. Today, South Asians are one of the largest immigrant populations in the US, but many families are caught in immigration backlogs that last for decades and make them vulnerable to the President’s executive order restricting birthright citizenship. Rajiv Narayan: Across all of these speakers, you know, the, the, the message became very clear that we have so many different struggles, but they’re all [00:32:00] united by a sense of solidarity for each other’s political experiences under the same system of exploitation and oppression, and that there, there’s so much that Congress can do in this moment to support the South Asian diaspora in the United States and, and even abroad in some cases. for ASATA Power’s part, we, had the opportunity to put together over the course of the last year a policy brief on undocumented South Asians, and it was during the congressional briefing that we shared some pretty startling statistics that we, collected and collated from a number of public sources. And so what we were able to identify for the room is that there are about eight hundred thousand to nine hundred thousand undocumented South Asians in the United States, and because there are only six point five million South Asians in the US, both those who are undocumented and those who have birthright citizenship or are otherwise naturalized, refugees, asylees, and, and everyone in between. Of those six point five million South Asians One in eight of [00:33:00] them is undocumented, which is shocking and not something that somebody would understand at the outset given these problematic narratives like the model minority myth and whatever you see these days on X or Twitter about South Asian immigrants. So it’s important for us not only to, to set the narrative straight and to identify both the diversity and opportunity for solidarity across our struggles, but to do so in the halls of power and to speak that truth to power directly. Miata Tan : That’s Rajiv with ASATA Power reflecting on a recent congressional briefing in Washington, DC he helped to organize alongside other progressive South Asian leaders, organizers, and activists. Here’s a snippet of Rajiv’s opening remarks at the briefing Rajiv Narayan: I want to draw your attention to the slide behind me, they’ll show a couple of images of South Asian community members who’ve been impacted recently by the horrific policies and practices of the federal administration. These members include Sheraz Fatehali Sachwani, a forty-eight-year-old citizen of Pakistan who died in ICE [00:34:00] detention last December. They include seventy-three-year-old Harjit Kaur, who was arrested during a routine ICE check-in, separated from her family, and deported to India without notice. I should say, I grew up seeing Harjit Kaur behind the counter at Sari Palace in Berkeley. She would help my mom try on saris. Her home was here. Her community was here. You know, these are just some of the names and stories of community members who have been affected by immigration policy as of late, and we hope that you will keep them in mind as you hear from our speakers today. There are many more we were not able to picture or name, but their stories are just as important. We’ll be making many asks over the course of today’s briefing. Some of those include the following: Congress should not increase funding for ICE or Border Patrol, including providing funds for detention facilities, especially in this funding moment. We have to remember that ICE is not a long-standing American institution. It was created in two thousand and two, recently, as part of the Homeland Security Act following nine [00:35:00] eleven. Miata Tan : That was Rajiv Narayan with ASATA Power speaking at a recent congressional briefing in Washington, DC. The briefing was part of a larger national convening organized by the South Asian Coalition, bringing together progressive South Asian groups from across the country. Now let’s return to Deepa Iyer, who leads projects on solidarity and social movements at Building Movement Project here’s Deepa reflecting on her takeaways from the congressional briefing Deepa Iyer: I think that there were so many pieces in that briefing that maybe people didn’t know about that organizations are struggling with, and part of it is that, um, our communities, and Sabihah said this earlier, are not a monolith, right? And there are so many different ways in which we are experiencing what is happening right now in the United States, the fractures and the fissures that we’re seeing. Rajiv spoke so well about the community needs and issues. One thing I’ll lift up is actually the impact on nonprofit [00:36:00] organizations. Several of the groups that were, uh, speaking at the briefing noted how the attacks on nonprofits that are specifically working on issues like immigration in terms of losing federal funding and grants, being forced to certify that they are not addressing issues work that deal with undocumented immigrants, as well as the ways in which, um, nonprofit organizations are being, in some ways, seen as doing risky and un-American work. there is the, the exploitation of domestic terrorism as a frame that is being used right now to target certain nonprofit organizations. This is something that I think is not necessarily known to many people in terms of the ways in which national security, immigration issues are also affecting the nonprofit sector as a whole. And where I work at the Building Movement Project, we really look at the nonprofit sector and the health of the nonprofit sector, and we’re [00:37:00] seeing that these types of external threats, the spotlight on organizations that are on the front lines, including South Asian groups, um, Muslim groups, Palestinian groups, that are working with, um, immigrant communities, queer and trans community members that are providing- Vital language access, service provision, community safety are really under threat right now, and this includes many of the organizations that were present at the, coalition’s convening. So that’s something that I also wanna lift up, that in addition to our communities who are facing the impact of the current moment in really acute ways, our nonprofit sector and our organizations are also dealing with a range of constraints and threats and difficulties. So that is one thing that came up over and over again. Miata Tan : That was Deepa Iyer with the Building Movement Project, highlighting the pressures facing the nonprofit sector right now, [00:38:00] especially as it relates to South Asian organizers, advocates, and communities. Let’s return to Farah Mahesri with ASATA Pawa.  Farah Mahersi: One of the other things that I am very proud of for this congressional briefing that we did was that it was us telling our own stories and us presenting our own policy recommendations. There was no need to have, like, an expert come in and talk on behalf of our communities or try to represent our communities. We were the experts in the room, and we were really recognized and seen as that. As Rajiv mentioned, you know, there, the room was packed with Hill staffers and congressional staffers who were taking diligent notes as we spoke our truths Miata Tan : That was Farah Mahesri with ASATA Pawa reflecting on the recent congressional briefing she helped to organize, one that brought greater visibility to the experiences of South Asian immigrants. You’ll hear more on how South Asian activists, organizers, and community groups [00:39:00] are mobilizing after this. Stay with us ​ Miata Tan : [00:40:00] [00:41:00] [00:42:00] That was Lion on the Hunt by Thao and the Get Down Stay Down. You are tuned into APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host, Miata Tan. Tonight, we’re talking about South Asian organizing in the United States and how community leaders are responding to immigration challenges, political representation, and the shifting landscape of civil rights back in March, organizers and advocates from across the country gathered in Washington, DC for a national convening focused on the challenges and possibilities facing South Asian communities today. Here’s Rajiv Narayan with the Alliance of [00:43:00] South Asians Taking Action, or ASATA, reflecting on the importance of honoring both the diversity of the South Asian diaspora and the shared struggle that connects these communities Rajiv Narayan: Something I appreciate about, your work, Miata, at APEX Express, is to highlight both that diversity of the South Asian diaspora and the many struggles and experiences that unite our political experiences and our commitment to social justice. It, it used to be, and in, in some places it still is the case, that folks will use an over-broad group to represent all of the South Asian diaspora. For example, talking about all Brown people as Indian or Desi or to, to collapse all the differences in our community. And part of the power of the congressional briefing is that we are able to show that what it means to be South Asian is at once an incredibly diverse expression and at the same time a collective expression of solidarity. We can do two of these things at the same time. We can recognize our differences and fight for each other. One of my [00:44:00] favorite takeaways that I, I heard from Deepa at the briefing is that there are some staffers that came up to her and said, “I’ve never heard my story, my experience, my political struggles represented in a panel in this building in front of other congressional staffers.” And that’s something that we can do, and we should do more of. There are so many ways in which we can tell the stories and highlight the campaigns of folks from different parts of the South Asian diaspora who are all fighting for a better life for all of us. Miata Tan : That was Rajiv Narayan with ASATA, in the recent congressional briefing that Rajiv helped to organize through the South Asian Coalition, organizers also pointed toward the future of South Asian organizing in the United States and the role of a new generation shaping it. back to Deepa Iyer with Building Movement Project. Here, Deepa Iyer: Some of the young folks that are entering or working at nonprofits now, supporting South Asian nonprofits don’t have a living memory of 9/11 and the global war on terror, [00:45:00] and they have been politicized in different ways, right, over the last eight years, for example, the pandemic global wars, et cetera. And so there are a couple of ways in which I’ve been thinking about how we can support South Asian young people. so for example, how can we share historical analysis and political analysis so that young people understand that they are part of a trajectory of South Asian activism that actually started well before 9/11, before the 1960s, right, and that continues to today, so they don’t feel fragmented. So that’s something I’ve been sitting with a lot. Another is around pathways into public service and community service and into the nonprofit sector. So how could we support young people in terms of building their skills, in having pathways open to them into our nonprofit organizations? And then finally, how do we support them, um, so that they, can do this work for the long run? You know, we all struggle with burnout, we all [00:46:00] struggle with sustainability. what are some lessons learned that we can pass on? What are some best practices? that’s something that’s been sitting with me quite a bit since the gathering that we had, and I hope that the coalition will really think about, supporting young people’s leadership and finding different avenues and pathways to do that. Miata Tan : That was Deepa Iyer reflecting on how movements can better support the next generation of South Asian organizers. Within the South Asian coalition, that work also means building long-term infrastructure for better collaboration. Now back to Sabiha Basrai with ASATA. Sabiha Basrai: I’m also really appreciating that the South Asian Coalition is this model for creating a container for many, many organizations to unite as a group while maintaining regional focus and individual issue priorities. I also wanna name that the place where I first learned how to do national coalition work was as a member of the National South Asian Coalition that ASATA had been part of. [00:47:00] It was facilitated by a group called SALT which played such a critical role in the post 9/11 era and continued to then work on DACA, creating resources for undocumented South Asians, along with other issues facing our diverse diasporas. And SALT closed a few years ago. It was a decision that I don’t understand and was- has really left me with a lot of sadness and confusion. but I al- I know that sometimes institutions do end, but that the work does not end and the relationships do not end. And the South Asian Coalition is this emergent space that, um, is not led by any one organization. it is a space that is being invested in collectively, and we’re really moving at the speed of trust so that we can be really laying that strong foundation that supports the work ahead. I’m really sitting with the ways in which sometimes this labor of Building the container, creating the container, [00:48:00] investing in the network. It’s sometimes invisible labor, but it is the most critical because without it we can have moments of mass mobilization, but then that wasn’t actually building any power over the long term. And I’m really looking forward to all of the very good work ahead, because I trust the relationships and the containers that we’re building. Miata Tan : That was Sabiha reflecting on the collaborative infrastructure that the South Asian Coalition is helping to build. Now let’s return to Deepa Iyer. I asked Deepa what campaigns are on the horizon for the coalition, especially as this year marks 25 years since 9/11. Deepa Iyer: As Sabiha mentioned, the coalition is a space for invested leadership, and so there are lots of different campaigns that groups within the coalition are eyeing and taking on. One of them Rajiv mentioned already is the fight around birthright citizenship. And so there are groups like SACHCO and others that showed up with a South Asian [00:49:00] delegation at the Supreme Court on April 1st when that case was being heard, and it was really great to see so many South Asians out there in a delegation along with other communities, to raise their voices on this really vital, pivotal issue. And so that is a campaign that some of the groups within the coalition are going to continue to be lifting up as we get the results of that case and moving forward. Another one that you mentioned, is around the 25th anniversary of 9/11, and there are groups that are considering, along with others in other movement spaces what does narrative strategy look like as we go into this time period? How do we think about the fact that we’re marking the 25th anniversary in the same year that we’re marking the 250th anniversary of the United States, right? how do we use 9/11 and its anniversary as a lens through which we understand empire, through which we understand the ways in which domestic [00:50:00] policies are being recirculated against other communities? And also this piece around awareness and education. this is an opportunity to share some of the personal experiences that many of us have around that moment in time, but also the ways in which our communities have built up themselves as well as the solidarity with other communities. So I think there are lots of ways in which organizations are thinking about that anniversary and how they can, utilize that moment, to draw greater attention to our community’s experiences. Miata Tan : Rajiv, Farah, would you like to add anything about upcoming campaigns and how you’re thinking about the South Asian political power movement moving forwards?  Rajiv Narayan: Yeah, I’m happy to talk about one sort of continuing campaign, which is that, like I mentioned, we put together this policy brief on undocumented South Asians, and we had this great opportunity to circulate and talk about it on Capitol Hill in DC. But it’s also important for us to bring that story home. And so part of [00:51:00] what we’ll be doing, um, for the remainder of, of this year is identifying opportunities to do town halls both, with community members and potentially with elected officials to help educate, do political education about the nature of undocumented peoples in the South Asian community. A large part of what we did in that policy brief is to collate all these numbers to tell you, how many folks might be undocumented, what is the proportion of undocumented people in the South Asian community. But an important, equally important contribution of that report is the nature of undocumented experiences. Why do people become undocumented? What are the factors that put them in that position, and what does it mean for a person to become undocumented? How can we support them, not just in different policy prescriptions, but also the ways that we talk about undocumented people and the South Asian community as a whole? So that’ll, that’ll be, um, a focus that we have, uh, and a contribution that we hope to make both in the, the Bay Area and beyond.  Farah Mahersi: I’ll add to that, that it is election year. It is [00:52:00] a… I feel like we say every election is a critical election, and I do believe that that is very true this year. And so ASATA Power, as a political organization, will be making endorsements and talking through not just that it is important to vote, but it is really important and critical for us in this moment to vote for progressive candidates who are part of our, what is often called like a build coalition, who are here to help us build this world that we are dreaming of, who are aligned on policy positions. The other thing that we are working on locally and nationally is around the war budget. So as a group that has been so directly impacted by the global war on terror 4.5 million Muslims around the world who have been killed by US war-making in that global war on terror, and just watching kind of what the United States foreign policy in particular over the last couple of years has been, we have a particular point of view and a particular interest on tracking and watching things like the [00:53:00] largest, request for a defense budget in US history. How are those dollars being spent, And how those dollars that are being spent abroad to do war-making are also having a boomerang effect and coming back to impact our communities at home. So the same technologies that were developed and used in war-making through the global war on terror that impacted, uh, so many of our communities around the world for 25 years, a lot of that is the same technology that ICE is now using to go after undocumented South Asians in the United States, right? And so that’s another way in which we really see our struggles are interconnected, and that we are wanting to dismantle als- a lot of these systems of harm, and also, again, at that intersection between both hate violence and state oppression that’s happening. Miata Tan : That was Farah Mahestri with ASATA and ASATA Power. As she shared, ASATA Power is focused on the midterm elections and how war spending and post 9/11 policies continue to affect South Asian communities today. [00:54:00] To close out, we return to another ASATA organizer, Sabiha Basrai. Sabiha Basrai: So I wanted to bring the conversation back locally to the Bay Area again, and just thinking about, the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, which is, part of a network of AAPI and Asian organizing in the Bay Area as a space where South Asians progressive South Asians can actually build community, sharpen our political analysis, embrace our responsibilities here in the Bay Area in this political moment. And just also, lifting up that ASATA currently is working on things like the Oakland Arms Embargo or local community defense against ICE , environmental justice projects, and also looking for more ways to fight supremacist ideologies of Hindutva but in collaboration with anti-Zionist Jewish community activists. these are opportunities that we have here in the Bay Area. And also thinking about ways that we participate in mobilizations. Like, we show up for Reclaim MLK Day, [00:55:00] International Working Women’s Day, May Day, the Trans March every year because we understand our responsibility to show up and to show up consistently. And so when I think about the South Asian Coalition and this moment of, okay, we’ve been trying to- we’ve built- been building towards this convening and this congressional briefing, and now we’re on the other side of this moment, and we are kind of reflecting and coming back together around how we maintain this energy. Also wanted to highlight,  Some of the amazing work that many of our coalition members are, are already doing. One is Savaira, so Savaira United Against Supremacy is actually a coalition of work as well, they focused, their energy on addressing Hindu nationalism and and Hindutva ideology and the, and the many ways in which, the supremacist ideology is kind of insidiously part of institutions, policy even cultural work, uh, within our diaspora. they’re so committed to both, like, [00:56:00] resisting the tides of hatred but also combating all forms of supremacist politics and the intersections between them. so their, their work has been a big part of my political education, and I’m really glad that they’re part of this coalition. Every member of the coalition is bringing analysis and experience that cross-pollinates to the rest of us. So I’m looking forward to just more of that   also considering what ASATA’s role is and how ASATA working in the Bay Area alongside so many other amazing organizing projects here can be strengthening those relationships nationally. Miata Tan : That was Sabiha Basrai with the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, or ASATA.  This is APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. APEX Express airs every Thursday evening at 7:00 PM. And with that, we’re at the end of our time here [00:57:00] tonight. We really appreciate you for tuning in to listen, and a huge thank you to our wonderful guests. For a transcript of tonight’s episode, please visit our website. That’s kpfa.org/program/apex-express  We’ve also added links on the episode page for tonight’s show so you can learn more about the South Asian Coalition, ASATA, and all of the organizations we’ve talked about tonight, along with their upcoming campaigns as well. APEX Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me, Miata Tan. Get some rest y’all. The post APEX Express – 5.28.26 – Building South Asian Power appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 4.30.26 – Bruce Lee and the Manosphere 30.04.2026 59мин

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight on APEX Express, Host Miko Lee focuses on Asian American Men, Bruce Lee and the mano-sphere. She chats with renowned author and thinker Jeff Chang about his new book: Bruce Lee & the making of Asian America, Water Mirror Echo. Then she talks with Rachel Koelzer the Communications Director for Nakasec about their new study of Asian American men and the manosphere. How are images of Asian American male identify being shaped and formed in our current society and what does Bruce Lee have to do with this? Listen in. More in tonight’s show Jeff Chang’s book: Water, Mirror, Echo Nakasec ReportAsian American Men and Mano-sphere CAAMFest 2026, running May 7-10, 2026, San Francisco’s AMC Kabuki Theatre Show Transcripts [00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.   [00:00:40] Miko Lee: Welcome to Apex Express. I’m your host, Mika Lee, and tonight we are focusing on Asian American men, Bruce Lee and the Manosphere. I chat with renowned author and thinker Jeff Chang about his new book, Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America Water Mirror Echo. Then I speak with Rachel Koelzer, the communications director for NAKASEC, about their new study of Asian American men and the Manosphere. So how are images of Asian American male identity being shaped and formed in our current society, and what does Bruce Lee have to do with all this? First, listen to my conversation with author Jeff Chang. Welcome Jeff Chang to Apex Express.    [00:01:24] Jeff Chang: Ah, it’s so great to be here. Miko. So happy.    [00:01:27] Miko Lee: I’m so happy to talk with you about your latest book. You’re such a prolific writer, and here you have written a big Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America Water Mirror Echo. Such a mighty title. I wanna start first just a question that I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   [00:01:49] Jeff Chang: Oh my gosh. What a great question to start with. You know, my family, my communities, they all kind of blend together, the blood family, the kin family, and the chosen family, for me. I guess I’m always [laughs], I’m first born Chinese Kanaka, you know, I’m always aware that I am, representing, I guess, So I, you know, I carry that family with me wherever I go.   [00:02:16] Miko Lee: I, I think I know what that means. But for our audience that might not know what a firstborn Chinese kanaka means, can you break that down a little bit? What does that mean to you when you say that?    [00:02:25] Jeff Chang: Yeah, I mean, you know, it’s just the, i, it it’s just a thing of, you know, you’re gonna go out and represent the family and, you’re thrust into Taking on responsibilities and stuff for your folks, your siblings, your, younger cousins, those kinds of things. I was always very aware of that within the family. My dad’s from a really big family, had six siblings and, my mom’s from a large extended, family. so that’s, That’s such a fantastic question Miko. Bruce was the second child, which, you know, birth order and all that kind of stuff. It also squares, I think with, a Chinese family. He felt like he was always in the shadow of his older brother.   [00:03:10] Miko Lee: Okay. Hold on. Let’s get to Bruce in a second. I wanna finish with you as an author, creator person.    [00:03:16] Jeff Chang: Okay.    [00:03:16] Miko Lee: Wait, so you are the number one son.    [00:03:18] Jeff Chang: I’m the number one son. Yeah.    [00:03:19] Miko Lee: Ooh, okay. I get it. Yeah. And then what is the legacy that you carry with you?    [00:03:24] Jeff Chang: The legacy. I just have to represent, in a point, a kind of a way, in a proper kind of a way. You know, the family , and those kinds of things. I was also very rebellious. I came back after my freshman year as the Berkeley Radical. My Uncle Fungi was like, oh, here comes the Berkeley radical. Okay. Then of course, you gotta sit down and drink beer and tell ’em , all the stories and that kind of thing. So, you know, just being able to, carry on, a legacy of being upright and being, just, right. And sort of being appropriate in all that you do. just aware of that. Grew up aware of that. Yeah.    [00:04:02] Miko Lee: And then what was your first memory of Bruce Lee?   [00:04:06] Jeff Chang: Ah, I don’t have a first memory. He was just part of the ether, you know what I mean? He was part of the   [00:04:10] Miko Lee: Ah, yeah.   [00:04:11] Jeff Chang: Yeah. He was part of the air. I think I came of age, after the generation, like my older cousins who were able to see Bruce in the theaters. We came up the next generation, we saw Bruce on tv. Return of the Dragon would come on and everybody would stop everything and just watch that. During the commercial breaks we’re jumping around and kicking each other and stuff like that. I mean that, that kind of thing, right?    [00:04:34] Miko Lee: Yeah, totally. When I was growing up, people would always ask me if I was related to Bruce Lee, because Lee, because that was like, right, yeah, Lee. Yeah. Yeah. There’s not a billion Lees’ in the world.    [00:04:44] Jeff Chang: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.    [00:04:45] Miko Lee: Yeah. So I get it and I try to explain to my daughters, and our kids are around the same age, the cultural phenomenon that he was, and it’s hard to explain it to this generation because there wasn’t really other Asian American representation than Bruce Lee when we were growing up.   [00:05:03] Jeff Chang: Yeah. Yeah. And now they have Alysa Liu, you know, they have eileen Gu, they have all of these different folks. So if you don’t like Alysa, you could like Eileen. Or if you don’t like, if you like Eileen, you don’t have to like Alysa. Right. Or you can like ’em both. They have choices.   [00:05:14] Miko Lee: You could like Chloe.    [00:05:16] Jeff Chang: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They like Chloe, right? There’s choices. Yeah. Like Chloe’s on the Olympic stand with two other Asians. It’s just wild. It’s a beautiful thing. and it’s not like the kind of reality that we grew up in. It’s true.    [00:05:29] Miko Lee: Yeah. So what made you decide to write this book? you’ve written many books about pop culture and around theory and around Americana, and what made you decide to write a book about Bruce Lee?    [00:05:41] Jeff Chang: So the book came to me actually, it was an Asian American editor back during a time, not so long ago, but a while ago, when there weren’t a lot of Asian American editors in the business. And he came to me and that was amazing in and of itself. And he said basically, Hey man, you did this book on hip hop. This is back in, the latter part of the two thousands. I wanna imagine I haven’t gone back and looked at the date. ’cause it, it actually hurts me to think about it. But he saw you did this book like. Do you think you could do a book on Bruce Lee? And I was like, yeah, I could do that. I was hyped to do that. Please. Because Yeah. ’cause Bruce was our hero. Yeah. Just like we were talking about. The most famous Asian American who’s ever lived. It took me a long time to get going and I gotta admit I lost the plot at some point. I just was like, what am I doing? There were books that came out, about Bruce in the interim. there was one other biography that had come out, in the late 2010s,    [00:06:37] Miko Lee: and I think I told you about one of the books. I think it’s that book that I read written by a white guy and I wrote about it in good reads because I read a lot and that’s how I keep track of the books I read. I don’t think about anybody else reading those reviews that I write? It’s like writing in a journal or something. Now I use story graph ‘ it’s amazing. Not commercial, but at the time I used Goodreads and the author wrote back to me, I think I told you this story.    [00:07:04] Jeff Chang: Yeah, yeah. Tell me. Tell, so what did you write and what did the author write back to you?   [00:07:08] Miko Lee: I wrote that I thought that this author did not understand what an icon Bruce was to the Asian American community, and it was written in a way that didn’t, grasp the whole complexity of what he meant to us. He wrote this really, mean note back to me about how he had Shannon, Bruce’s daughter’s support and he was the one that could tell the story. And I thought, whoa, I was just shocked. That was the first time. Since then, I’ve had many different authors write back to me, but that was like the first one and wrote back in a mean way. So anyways.    [00:07:39] Jeff Chang: Was it public or this was a private, A private email back to you.    [00:07:43] Miko Lee: I think it’s public. I don’t know. Have to go look. I was shook at the time. Like what?    [00:07:49] Jeff Chang: Wow. Okay.    [00:07:50] Miko Lee: Anyway, so when I heard you were writing a book, I said, okay, finally, finally. Yay.    [00:07:55] Jeff Chang: Hmm. Yeah. You know, and I’ll be honest, I, I had this sort of crisis of confidence. I was sort of like, you know, this is, okay, we’ll put it out there. ’cause you already went there. It’s Matthew Polly’s book, Bruce Lee Life. I read it, he had done amazing research. He had spoken to a lot of people. I thought I was supposed to do this kind of a book. Now there’s a particular kind of genre, that folks who are maybe in the industry recognize and, it’s called I’m putting scare quotes around this, like the definitive biography,    [00:08:27] Miko Lee: right.    [00:08:28] Jeff Chang: In this particular case, the definitive biography, because he’s a movie star s. Sort of coincides or converges with this other genre, which is the celebrity biography. I’m putting scare quotes around that too. So, the mission of a celebrity biographer is really to tell a story of, this celebrity. Is not as cool as you think they are. Like, their crap stinks. They cheated on their spouses. They like didn’t file their taxes, they kicked their dog, they said mean things to different people. That’s a celebrity biography. It’s basically to tarnish the star. and if not, then it’s sort of a hagiography, which is sort of a whole other kind of thing. And we don’t wanna do that as writers. We wanna approach the truth. But there’s sort of a certain kind of thing that comes into play, with Bruce. There’s a sort of genre of the take down of Bruce where it’s usually men that are writing this, and the men are usually like, well, Bruce was my hero when I was a kid, but now I’ve gotta take him down. You know what I mean? It’s, and so you see it over and over again and, you know, there’s a sort of a weird thing going on, especially I think with, white males who have loved Bruce Lee in the past feeling like they need to take him down.So let’s say    [00:09:50] Miko Lee: Quinton Tarantino.    [00:09:52] Jeff Chang: Okay, you said it. I didn’t, but I was gonna say like Albert Goldman, who was a journalist who famously wrote a take down of Elvis Presley.    [00:10:00] Miko Lee: Right.   [00:10:01] Jeff Chang: and did one of Bruce that was unbelievably racist. Now, I’m not saying that Matthew was trying to do this at all. I think that his scholarship and his work was really, really good. But I, I felt crowded out a little bit. You know, I felt like, gosh, I don’t know what there is to say? I was very aware that there were a lot of books that had been written about Bruce and that I was writing into or out of, or in opposition to a tradition.   [00:10:30] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:10:31] Jeff Chang: These are the Bruce. Lee Stories. and so at that particular point, in the late 2000 tens, I just said, what am I gonna do? And Lourdes, my partner, walked me up to the park and just tore into me like, what, you’re gonna give up now? You can’t give up now. You gotta do this, you have to. Who else is gonna do this? And I’m just feeling all that, Chinese Kanaka, firstborn, guilt, responsibility. she’s about the only person that I can take a tongue lashing like that from. We walk back the mile to the house and my head was between my legs and I was like, all right, I’ll do it. I’ll do it. But I didn’t know what I was gonna do to be completely real. I didn’t know what I was gonna do. So the other thing that was kind of happening at this particular point was I was noticing, and you and I both have, children who are now adults, but at that time they were younger. They were like coming into their own, they’re in their teens and that kind of thing, and that particular generation was coming up in some ways. Like we talked about, like they had all of these folks that they could look to.    [00:11:34] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:11:34] Jeff Chang: Right. you know, our kids have opportunities in media that we never had.   [00:11:39] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:11:39] Jeff Chang: We’ve had to break through in a lot of ways. And there was also, in a weird way, this sort of entropy around this notion of Asian America. Like young people who call themselves Asian American would also sit around and be like, what even is an Asian American? How do I relate to these other types of folks who are also classed as Asian Americans, or who describe themselves as Asian Americans as well. Like politically, culturally, the kind of food we eat, the way we dress, who we hang out with. Like all of the diversity that we’ve celebrated for so many years felt like entropy, I think, to them like this is, there’s no center to this anymore. Then the pandemic happened and the violence, Was one way of saying this is it’s the ice cube moment. This is what they think of you. You know what I mean? Yeah. And, and I think that was what galvanized, especially a lot of young people to find a new sense of purpose, a new sense of activism, a new sense of, how to be in the world And    [00:12:43] Miko Lee: for maybe some young folks who had never felt that they had experienced direct racism before, to suddenly see it really blatant in the community.    [00:12:52] Jeff Chang: Right. And, it was personal. It touched all of us. I know everyone has stories about how we were treated during the pandemic, and especially the women and especially, the queer folks. In a lot of ways it was paradigm shifting and it was paradigm shifting for me too, you know, so I’m writing about this guy who considers himself a martial artist.    [00:13:13] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:13:14] Jeff Chang: And he’s teaching people about self-defense.    [00:13:18] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:13:19] Jeff Chang: And in his career being accused of fomenting violence, like a lot of. Folks in hip hop have been over the years.    [00:13:27] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:13:28] Jeff Chang: I’m suddenly like looking at this in a completely different light. What does it mean to think about self-defense and violence and training to be a warrior, right? I have a lot of folks who are in the military. My mom worked for the police department, like what does that mean? For somebody like me who’s, essentially anti militarist, who has critiques of the police, as we all should. who’s a deep supporter of Black Lives Matter, like how do we think about what it means to, to be a warrior, and also to understand like the dignity, right in wanting to be a protector.    [00:14:04] Miko Lee: Right.    [00:14:05] Jeff Chang: Right. And to, uplift what that means, but to kind of think about all of these existential questions and then at the same time to see Bruce popping back up on our walls and murals and popping up on our feeds as a symbol, right. Of pride. Especially during this particular period, near us in the bay, like in San Francisco, Chinatown or Oakland Chinatown, young people bringing back the image of Bruce as a symbol of pride and also this sort of cry for like, can you see us? This sort of underlying desire to find solidarity. All of this mixed up with this like identity crisis that is now taking a different type of turn. So it was a lot to think about and suddenly I was just like, oh, oh, oh, wait a minute. Maybe that’s what I’m supposed to write about. So the book became, about Bruce, but also about Bruce as an Asian American and about him kind of traveling parallel to the rise of the Asian American movement.    [00:15:04] Miko Lee: Yeah, I think it’s so powerful that way, that it does tell this whole Asian American history for folks that might not know from, the very beginning of our, coming from the exclusion act to I hotel, to Vincent Chin and not just like politically, but then also cinematically because he crossed over so many barriers for us. So we’re also getting Asian American cinema history with Anna May Wong and Sessue Hayakawa, and even the Hong Kong industry. So I love how you combined all these different elements. It’s such a wonderful way to look at that. And I’m wondering what made you decide to organize the book into these three categories of water, mirror, echo.   [00:15:44] Jeff Chang: The line came first, Bruce’s famous. Epigraph is, be water my friend, and, me being the nerd that I am, I wanted to trace the origins of that and found it pretty quickly, in a sort of, Daoist type of text. called the leads and the full, Section that, had influenced Bruce so much was moving be like water, still be like a mirror, respond like an echo. This is a line that actually resonates through Zen Buddhism as well. It was one of those things where when I first read it in Bruce’s Dao Jeet Kun Do, I fell outta my chair. It was amazing. It blew me away. We’d all heard “be water.” We’d heard athletes say it. we’d heard, business leaders, say, we saw the activists in Hong Kong, using it, in the streets. and. Yet to see all of this together was even deeper. That was a window into wow. We think of Bruce as the great popularizer of martial arts. Bruce, he’s not recognized as the great popularizer of Asian philosophy, in a lot of ways. It happened during this particular period during the sixties where, views of Asians and Asian Americans were beginning to shift dramatically, opening up in a lot of ways. So we had this phrase, my editor, Akia Clark, and I. She was like, all right, “how are you gonna organize this Jeff?” I was like, I don’t know, help me. And she’s like, all right, there’s a water, there’s a mirror, there’s an echo here. And it actually tracks to his life and the arc of his story and I was like, “oh, wow. Yeah.” So I can’t take any credit. I have to give it to my editor, who is,    [00:17:24] Miko Lee: that’s a good editor.    [00:17:25] Jeff Chang: Amazing. Yo, she was amazing. Rekia was like, I signed you because, I grew up and the only Asian I knew was Bruce Lee. She grew up in largely black communities. She was like, I need to know more. , I really want to hear your take on this. And, and So it was a, an incredible collaboration in that way because it was the type of here’s where we meet. She was literally giving me free reign to be able to tell me a story. Tell me why we’re meeting here. Right. Why were we meeting through Bruce? That ended up giving me so much confidence and focus after I’d had, all of these years of being in the woods and, uh, what am I gonna do? And then, Lourdes is trying to shake me up That’s kind of how it,    [00:18:09] Miko Lee: it took that time, that time to simmer, and your creative juices to be able to come up with this.    [00:18:15] Jeff Chang: Yeah. Yeah. It didn’t feel. Like it at the time, but looking back now, I’m not the fastest, ho nu in the water.    [00:18:22] Miko Lee: Because you talked a little bit about confidence and how much Bruce shared about, Asian philosophy, which I think is really true. I wonder if you could speak a little bit more about his sense of confidence, both in himself, and then a sense of destiny, like the mark that he was gonna leave on the planet.    [00:18:38] Jeff Chang: It’s very interesting to me because I think that this has been kind of, a part of the Bruce Lee legend. It was like he was born for a purpose. I was going through his papers and talking to, his, surviving family members and friends, like it was all improv.    [00:18:55] Miko Lee: Really him saying all those things was improv. What was all improv?    [00:18:59] Jeff Chang: Yeah. I think part of it, I think, well, maybe it wasn’t an all improv, certainly he was driven.   [00:19:04] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:19:04] Jeff Chang: He was incredibly ambitious and he was incredibly driven and he knew where he wanted to go. Absolutely 2000%, I think he entered this journey, like all of us in our journeys, you know, like we’re maybe packed for the journey, but we might find along the way that we don’t have what we need. I was attuned to the points where that narrative would break down. To all of the vulnerabilities that he was feeling in different moments. and especially because I got to talk to folks, who knew him, who maybe hadn’t necessarily been interviewed in like, the years. His very close Asian American friends, the folks who knew him, off the martial arts training floor. the folks who thought he was weird and kind of corny, folks at UW. All of these folks knew him at the University of Washington. And the, the common thing was, this guy’s goofy. He’s just had a one track mind. Like, he just wants to like show us like. Like Gung fu things all the time. Like who does that?    [00:20:08] Miko Lee: Like Bruce stop already. We heard that.    [00:20:10] Jeff Chang: right, right. Like punch me like, you want me to punch you? That was funny. You know, I was just, and that was sort of also a mind shift, you know, like    [00:20:19] Miko Lee: Yeah.   [00:20:19] Jeff Chang: It was like, oh, so there was a time before    [00:20:21] Miko Lee: he was revered,    [00:20:22] Jeff Chang: the cool guy. Yeah, before he was the cool guy. Then before he was the guy that was like super suave and like all the, whatever all the ladies wanted and all the guys wanted to be like, that’s been the Bruce narrative. So I was attuned to those parts and what strikes me is how much at the end he stuck to his guns. Like folks will read this in the last section of the book, and I don’t want to give it away, but this is when Destiny kicks in and Bruce rises to the top and he makes another dragon. He becomes this global star and it was meant to happen. And I was like, no. He was actually fighting every step of the way. Like every day of his life. He felt like this thing was gonna fall apart. At one time, he boycotted his own movie because they weren’t giving him what he wanted. Some of his closest friends say the real thing that killed him. People talk about the coroner’s report conspiracy, like evil spirits that, but what he really did was like sacrifice himself in a way. That’s how a lot of his friends talk about it, you know? From a sense of this deep personal loss of somebody whom they loved so much and who was like there one day and suddenly gone the next, And so, you know, to deal too with that, question of the melancholia that comes with what we experience when we’re the survivors of someone we love, who suffers a premature death. In that regard, like I feel like the last part of the book too was deeply informed by. All of the stuff that’s come before, with the Black Lives Matter movement. You know, and understanding, that these came from deep sources of grief and mourning and loss. Thinking about what it’s meant for Asian Americans to have to look at two generations before we get to the things that Bruce was fighting for representationally    [00:22:14] Miko Lee: Yeah.    [00:22:14] Jeff Chang: You know, before we can get to everything everywhere, all at once. And Michelle Yeoh, receiving the Oscar for that. Like it took two generations. It took Brandon passing away one generation after his father, and then it took a whole bunch of other work that, a lot of folks needed to do in order for us to be able to. Get the kinds of representations that we hoped that we might see after, another dragon. and that, something that, has produced a melancholia in us, you know?    [00:22:48] Miko Lee: Yeah. Yeah.    [00:22:49] Jeff Chang: So.    [00:22:50] Miko Lee: You are talking a little bit about the people that you interviewed and there’s so many clearly that you did, and when I was reading it, the backstory of Taki, that was when I thought, oh, this is an Asian American author. I mean, I know you, but it like, including that whole backstory I thought was so powerful and actually helped to build out the story of who he is, who his friends were and how he worked with them. I’m wondering if there’s an interview that you didn’t get.    [00:23:14] Jeff Chang: So many. So many.    [00:23:16] Miko Lee: Oh really?    [00:23:17] Jeff Chang: Yeah. I mean, I haven’t gone back to look at the original contract and the date because so many people passed away. I got started on this, I had three other books that I had to complete from my, publisher at the time this book was signed out of, those contracts. I had had a full-time job then, and then when the, pandemic and BLM sort of reached that inflection point, it was a much more than full-time job. I didn’t have time to be able to actually devote the book that I really needed to. I did research over a very long course of time. I did interviews over a very long course of time, but I started the interviews too late, so I couldn’t interview Taki.    [00:23:54] Miko Lee: oh wow. Okay.    [00:23:55] Jeff Chang: I couldn’t, yeah. Taki, was, alive. He lived to a very old age, but Alzheimer’s. Um,    [00:24:01] Miko Lee: oh wow.    [00:24:02] Jeff Chang: Took him, you know? By the time I started reaching out, it was a little bit like too late. I spoke to his son instead at great length. and a lot of other folks around, him. There wasn’t just one, there were a million interviews. I didn’t get. Taki, I didn’t interview Jesse Glover. I would’ve loved to have interviewed some of his friends From Hong Kong, but we couldn’t access them because of the pandemic. I had an amazing researcher on the ground, Winnie Fu who, did a lot of amazing work there and was able to source a lot of stuff for us. There was so many people, and even now, like I was just up in Seattle for the unveiling of the Bruce Lee postage stamp, and I got to meet a friend of his from high school, and so I’m gonna sit down. I’ve been talking with Shannon’s, cousin, Bruce’s niece who has been keeping the genealogies of the family. We’ve been talking a lot. I’m gonna go back and interview her, and so hopefully maybe by the time the paperback edition comes around, I might be able to have some new information that I might be able to throw in in that edition.    [00:25:03] Miko Lee: Yeah. What surprised you most about the research?    [00:25:06] Jeff Chang: I think that Bruce was vulnerable. He felt very lonely a lot of the time. he had set himself out like this huge impossible dream in some ways. he knew his destination. He had no idea how he was gonna get there. That’s where I talk about it was all improv. and at different points he despaired. I don’t know if these folks are really seeing me, I don’t think they really understand me. After the Green Hornet, he couldn’t get a job. That he felt was befitting him, you know? So he’s taking whatever work he can get. He’s working as a fight choreographer for Nancy Kwan. And, just doing what he can and he’s relying upon people to put him on. He’s doing Gung FU training of a lot of the Hollywood top brass. So he can reach out to them, but even they don’t believe in him. They don’t believe in him like that. That’s why he decides he has to leave. But it takes him literally four years to realize, oh, they don’t see me as a main character. They don’t see me the way I see myself. Yeah. So I gotta go. Even then he’s still trying to get on the TV show, Kung fu. When that door slams and they cast David Carradine yellow face, he’s like, oh, that, and that’s when the ice cube moment really sets in for him. Like, that’s how they see me. That’s how they really understand me. After that, he’s fighting this battle to try to get back to Hollywood. That’s, one of the things he feels like he really wants to do. his thought is that I need to build up as much capital as I possibly can in order to be able to negotiate from a point of, strength. It’s just very hip hop. It’s very wutang clan. He’s able to kind of get there. But he’s still gotta fight these battles at the end. They just wanted him to shut up and kick. They gave him a black CoStar and a white CoStar because they were afraid that an Asian lead wouldn’t make it. They wanted to name the movie Hans Island. Not Enter the Dragon because, Oriental villains were easier to understand than an Asian American male lead. So    [00:27:00] Miko Lee: that’s such a horrible title too.    [00:27:02] Jeff Chang: Oh my God. How can you imagine we would not be talking about Hans Island.    [00:27:07] Miko Lee: I don’t know how they thought that was a good idea.    [00:27:10] Jeff Chang: Yeah, it’s true.    [00:27:11] Miko Lee: Is there anything else that you would like your audiences that to understand about Bruce Lee?    [00:27:16] Jeff Chang: What I tried to do is portray him in the context that he actually lived in, We’ve got the legend of Bruce, we’ve got the stories, of Bruce that have kind of burnished the legend. What I tried to do was to try to put him back as a human being, as a young person walking through Hong Kong streets and the streets of China, you know, down Grant and then, down King Street in Seattle. making it up to the studios, in Hollywood. and what that meant, for him to, actually accomplish all this kind of stuff. Because when we take away the legend, and this is one of the things I was worried about too, back in the late 2000 tens when I was like, I don’t know what I’m gonna write. When you take away the legend. I was worried that people were gonna be like, oh, you just want to drag down this guy? And you’re like the guy that’s just throwing water on our hero. But what I’m, really understanding now is. when you look back at what he went through and what he overcame, he actually becomes even more heroic, to all of us. He wasn’t a perfect person. but I think he remains a hero like more than a half century after his passing because of the things that he did.    [00:28:28] Miko Lee: I think that’s right and I think you do an amazing job in the book of incorporating this powerful Asian American history and putting, his experience in a time and place that helps the broader world understand what an icon he is and remains. And I really appreciate you for writing this book and taking this time and the amount of energy it took to Percolate really pays off.    [00:28:52] Jeff Chang: Thanks so much. I so appreciate you.   [00:28:55] Miko Lee: So I’m gonna be interviewing NAKASEC on their new study on Asian American Men in the Manosphere. Are you familiar about this?   [00:29:02] Jeff Chang: Oh, I can’t wait to read this. I cannot wait to read this. It’s so,    [00:29:06] Miko Lee: do you know about this? No. To this report.    [00:29:08] Jeff Chang: I didn’t know about it. I didn’t know about it. I’m, I’m glad somebody’s doing it.    [00:29:11] Miko Lee: Yeah. So they did a whole survey and they found that there is a lot of Asian American men that are part of the manosphere. Mm-hmm. And I’m wondering for you, who’s written about Asian American male identity, if you have thoughts about this?    [00:29:26] Jeff Chang: So many thoughts. I was very much thinking about the Asian American manosphere as I was writing this book, because these are my cousins, these are my friends, these are, folks who I’ve sparred with.   [00:29:39] Miko Lee: Right.   [00:29:40] Jeff Chang: These are conversations I’m having with folks, at the bar over a meal. I’m really interested in seeing how we’re able to understand what the appeal of the far right has been around questions, of masculinity in this moment and to win these folks back. I’ve also seen on the flip side, shifts and changes, around, how Asian American masculinity is displayed sea on social media in this era of a crackdown in immigration.    [00:30:19] Miko Lee: Yeah.    [00:30:20] Jeff Chang: We really do need solidarity. We really do identify with, what Latinos, are going through. What I worry about is that, the Asian American left, our first in instinct would be just to be like, ah, I can’t talk to them. it’s Gonna like upset me too much. I can’t deal with this. Somebody has to,, because that, those are our folks and we’ve lost them over the last, five years or so and we’ve gotta get ’em back.   [00:30:45] Miko Lee: And are there folks that you know of that are working specifically on ways to pull this community back?    [00:30:50] Jeff Chang: I imagine that there’s a lot of work on the ground that’s happening. because this is the, world that I’m in, I look to the folks who are, doing podcasts or doing social media work and, who are, often, men who. Are, you know, kind of like me, like troubled by this development and trying to find a way to speak to their folks as well. I’m monitoring that. I’m not, deep within it, but, like I said, I wrote this book, understanding that, that particular subset of our community. those are the folks that, are the Bruce Lee fans.    [00:31:22] Miko Lee: Yeah.    [00:31:23] Jeff Chang: and are the folks who are, involved in, mixed martial arts and, involved in, athletics and, all these other kinds of things. And, and they’re not too far away.    [00:31:33] Miko Lee: Yeah. It feels like there’s a disconnect between that kind of loving of Bruce Lee and that world, and interaction with politics, interaction with the current events and how that’s impacting them and their families.    [00:31:48] Jeff Chang: Well, I think it’s. Yeah. I put that down to the fragmentation of the way that we receive media.    [00:31:54] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:31:55] Jeff Chang: You know, and also, of course, the ways in which social media is geared towards the extremes. The way it’s geared towards the extremes and towards lifting up the. Loudest crudest voices sometimes. Mm-hmm. That’s exactly where the manosphere originates from. Right? That’s where it    [00:32:15] Miko Lee: lives.    [00:32:15] Jeff Chang: Yeah. That’s where it lives, is inside that pocket. It’s about again, trying to get inside of that and what’s causing that. What’s the melancholia that’s behind that? What is generating this rage, this fury, and being able to channel that, fury, that anger into, ways that will actually help not just all of us, but specifically them.    [00:32:39] Miko Lee: Yeah.    [00:32:40] Jeff Chang: That’s an organizing problem that we have to take up.   [00:32:43] Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing. I’m gonna send you the research, the report so you can read it and,    [00:32:48] Jeff Chang: uh, I can’t wait to break this open. Oh,    [00:32:52] Miko Lee: okay. I appreciate you. Thanks so much.   [00:32:54] Jeff Chang: Thank you.   [00:32:55] Miko Lee: Next up I speak with Rachel Kelzer, the communications director for NAKASEC, about their new study of Asian American men and the manosphere.Welcome Rachel Koelzer, communications Director for NAKASEC. Welcome to Apex Express.    [00:33:12] Rachel Koelzer: Hi. Thank you so much for having me today.    [00:33:15] Miko Lee: Can you first explain for our audience, your organization that you work with NAKASEC    [00:33:19] Rachel Koelzer: So NAKASEC is short for the National Korean American Service and Education Consortium. We are a national network of five affiliated organizations in six states.   [00:33:32] Miko Lee: Thank you. I wanna start with the question I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   [00:33:41] Rachel Koelzer: This is a great question. My people are the dreamers. They are the community rooted, change makers who believe that we are accountable and responsible to each other. For our collective wellbeing, our collective liberation, and our collective joy and care for each other. My people are also Korean adoptees, part of the Asian diaspora, and people who have survived challenges of life and still seek joy and to thrive.   [00:34:23] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for sharing. Through your work at NAKASEC, you recently released this report with a big old title, Asian Men, the Manosphere and Social Media, an Inflection Point for Asian American Advocacy and American Democracy. Wow. Can you first talk about what inspired this study?   [00:34:43] Rachel Koelzer: I became aware that there was this ongoing trend and challenge that we were having of not reaching young Asian men. Our followers were predominantly non men. Based on gender and significantly more women following us. Something like 70 30, 80 20. I talked with other organizations who also do advocacy and community based work who also faced similar challenges. I just wondered why. What is it that is preventing us from effectively reaching this large portion of our community that we serve? So from there we went and partnered with Dr. Tom Wong, and really started to dive into exploring the reasons behind it.    [00:35:34] Miko Lee: So let’s back up for a second. Can you explain for our audience what the manosphere is?    [00:35:40] Rachel Koelzer: The manosphere in kind of simplified terms, it’s a loosely connected network, of online communities, influencers and content creators who focus on men’s issues, masculinity, dating, health and fitness, financial wealth, and gender dynamics. It includes this wide spectrum of content, that range from like the more everyday fitness self-help. To more controversial topics, like anti-feminism, traditional gender roles and critiques of modern women in society. The common thread across these, loosely connected, communities and spaces is this underlying thread of traditional gender norms and expectations.    [00:36:30] Miko Lee: So is the manosphere inherently misogynistic?    [00:36:34] Rachel Koelzer: Yes.    [00:36:35] Miko Lee: Well that was a really quick response. Yes. No question.    [00:36:38] Rachel Koelzer: [Laughter] I being real here, you know? Yeah. It is.    [00:36:46] Miko Lee: Okay.    [00:36:46] Rachel Koelzer: So within the broader manosphere, there’s also men’s rights activists. Some more like toxic masculine type views. There is a little bit of a range, but yes, inherently, there’s deep rooted misogyny.   [00:36:58] Miko Lee: So how did you find people for your Study were they self-described people that participated in the manosphere?   [00:37:06] Rachel Koelzer: We partnered with Dr. Tom Wong, who is at the University of California, San Diego to conduct this survey. He used the voter file. They are self-identified Asian men and we set the parameters to be between the ages of 18 to 45. They identified across political ideology, across political party, and started with more general questions around their social media use. What platforms were they on? What, were the reasons that they were on social media. Who did they follow? To get a baseline understanding of where and what they’re consuming. We know that they’re online. There were questions about engagement with the manosphere.   [00:37:52] Miko Lee: What did this study reveal? What was surprising to you?    [00:37:57] Rachel Koelzer: What was really shocking is that one in five young Asian men are regularly engaging with manosphere content. That’s 20% one in five.   [00:38:07] Miko Lee: That’s a huge number.    [00:38:08] Rachel Koelzer: It’s a huge number. Yeah. They’re engaging with this content that is, starting off pretty innocuous like, you want to look better, you want to feel better, you want to have better relationships. What’s being embedded in that to varying degrees of, subtlety are these values of more traditional expectations and roles. It’s alarming that this that this many young Asian men are regularly engaging with it. We defined engaging, as, commenting, following, sharing. There were questions about how often they’re seeing it across their feed, whether or not they’re looking for it or not. We found that 35% of young Asian men are encountering manosphere content on their social media feeds several times a week.   [00:39:00] Miko Lee: Are they identifying it as manosphere content?    [00:39:04] Rachel Koelzer: They identified it, yes. In the survey we did provide a definition. Beforehand of what the manosphere was, and so anything within that would have to fall under this category.   [00:39:17] Miko Lee: Are most of those influencers and content creators, Asian American men also?    [00:39:23] Rachel Koelzer: That’s a really good question. When both Dr. Wong and our team, NAKASEC team, were doing some research there, we didn’t actually come across when we were looking at like the bigger names, right? Tens of thousands, upwards of millions followers. We didn’t really come across many of those large followers that are Asian men. The men that are perpetuating it, regardless of their race or ethnic background. I think what that points to, you mentioned white supremacy earlier, but there’s this idea and value that’s perpetuated of colorblindness. And so in this space, the gender kind of supersedes the race. What was really curious is, later on in the study we also asked, about early childhood experiences and lessons, from the adults in their lives around masculine values, around showing and expressing emotions, and around representation of asian men in the media. A large portion agreed that the overall representation of Asian men is harmful. We know for those of us who have been interrogating our experiences in the world for a while. We know that Asians and Asian men in particular, we’re stereotyped, we’re troped in a lot of ways, right, of these feminine, unattractive, nerdy, geeky, or you’ve got the other side, you’ve got the Bruce Lees, you’ve got the Jackie Chans, right? There’s a flattening that happens and . I think that is where the manosphere is dangerous and potentially even more appealing to communities who feel that they’ve been overlooked and undervalued, because it offers answers and those answers are really harmful to other communities, but they’re still providing answers.   [00:41:28] Miko Lee: Can we speak a little bit more about the perceptions of Asian Americans in the media There’s the stereotypes around women being either the dragon woman or the sexual exotic kind of play toy. Asian men, as you were pointing out, it’s either the kung fu guy or the nerdy guy or the effeminate guy. Right. There’s like not that much distinction. Is that your perception as well?    [00:41:57] Rachel Koelzer: Yes. I think there’s been, even from when I was a child and growing up, over the past 30 years, there’s been, improvements. But I think overall yes.   [00:42:08] Miko Lee: When I grew up, the only images were movies and television, and there just was not that much. So we did have those stereotype visions, but it was so limited in scope and content. There just was not as much content. Now it’s everywhere. There’s content in your phone, there’s all these different social media apps, there’s all these different channels you can watch. I’m wondering how that has impacted Asian Americans men’s perspectives on how they see themselves and if that. Just looking at social media and the manosphere and how that impacted, the reason why you did the study and the outcomes of the study.   [00:42:46] Rachel Koelzer: The study showed that 26.7% of the men who were surveyed feel that Asian men are portrayed favorably in social media. That’s actually still a very low percentage. 71.6% agree that Asian men are often underrepresented or stereotyped in media and popular culture. Even though yes, there’s still greater representation, that there’s still the portrayals and the quality and caliber or what that representation actually is, or how it’s developed is still significantly lacking. What the manosphere offers, one, it offers answers as to how you might get away from, from those, right? You might be able to get out of that, which is to be this hyper quote unquote, masculine, dominating, character. It points the blame directly away from systems like patriarchy and white supremacy. It doesn’t really interrogate what internalized misogyny, internalized racism, looks like and is doing. It’s saying. You know what the problem is actually that women are becoming too independent. The problem is that, men are becoming too effeminate, and so there’s this combination of race blindness and naming another villain in a way that punches down.   [00:44:32] It’s a combination of looking for genuine insight and information to better understand their experiences and they’re finding answers, but the quality of those answers and the ways that they’re getting pushed to those are very problematic, very concerning. Not just for what that means for women in queer rights and immigrant rights and marginalized communities rights. These kinds of values that are being espoused and normalized. But what that means for, , how someone starts to view themselves and, their role in the world and the impact that that has on the systems, and structures of our society.    [00:45:13] Miko Lee: There’s so many interesting things that you said. I heard you say the men are finding a sense of belonging in the manosphere, and they’re getting answers and the answers being right wing propaganda, which is being fed to them. Is that right?   [00:45:26] Rachel Koelzer: Yeah, I think that’s right. The problem is the quality of the answers that they’re receiving. The values that are embedded within that, whether or not they’re being explicitly named, it’s not. There are, again, if you go further, deeper, there are folks that are very proud to be part of the manosphere. That is a known and a shared identity as far as like we are part of the manosphere.Then there are those, I think Joe Rogan himself is like, I’m not part of that, but if you listen to his content and his messages, right? There’s a lot of those traditional right wing, very violent and misogynistic roots that are coming out in there.   [00:46:13] It starts off very innocuously looking for answers, looking to better understand your life, your experiences, and what you can do about it. That’s innocuous enough. Right. And there’s even, like, there’s a lot to be said about that kind of,, what’s the word I’m trying to think of,, initiative, right? To better understand and seek resources and things. But unfortunately through a combination of the algorithm. Through investments into these kinds of content creators, , and spaces we’re seeing that those proliferating a lot more. And so whether or not young Asian men are intentionally seeking this type of content, they’re being fed it regularly.   [00:46:54] Miko Lee: I also heard you this comment about race blindness. I get that it because it’s like men, men, men we’re men and we’re bounding together. But race blindness feels like a rube, if you will, for, white supremacy and misogyny. It’s this way of saying we are all one, but very much targeting, specific folks that are not in positions of power and control.   [00:47:21] Rachel Koelzer: Yeah, absolutely. It flattens and erases the experiences of people who have been marginalized through, our laws, our policies, and it stops the need. It stops the self-reflection and interrogation too that is asked of us otherwise, which is to reflect on what power do I hold and what is my responsibility with that power, whether it’s, having more privilege because I’m a citizen. Having privilege because you are a man. Even if you are also, historically and presently marginalized because of your race as an Asian person, it reduces that depth and again, that responsibility for self-reflection and interrogation.   [00:48:22] Miko Lee: So given all that, your report says this is a warning sign, which clearly it is and an opportunity. I wonder if you could talk a bit more about what is the opportunity here as we’re in this time of great change. Great revolution, the year of the fire horse. Talk about how we can actively disrupt that pipeline to radical extremism.    [00:48:46] Rachel Koelzer: It’s an important question and it’s an important conversation that we need to have. There needs to be an awareness and an understanding of what it is that, is threatening the health and wellbeing of our community and of our country. What this study showed is we’re at an inflection point. The percentages, the numbers, we’re not so far down the rabbit hole, but we’re like right on the edge. We’re like at this tipping point, and so intervention is necessary now. This is a great opportunity for organizations, for community leaders to be having these conversations. To be engaging in political education with their community members to be, educating and informing and connecting with members of their community, particularly young Asian men. And it’s an opportunity for these in-person spaces and these digital spaces to be countering the manosphere with our own answers.   [00:49:51] I think that’s one of the biggest things, especially when we’re talking about a digital space, to be investing in content creators, to be investing in artists, to be investing in doing the work of putting out our own answers and solutions. Explanations and analysis of what is happening. It’s a call to action and an opportunity for funders, donors for people who have the ability, to put money behind these kinds of spaces online. There’s just this significant disparate investment. It’s an opportunity to be really investing in community, really investing in recreating spaces, building out spaces, I’m thinking particularly again, community-based organizations who can be understanding what the risks and threats are and understanding their communities where they are, and not necessarily adding to, but, with this threat in mind, how does that inform the spaces that you’re creating or the strategies that you are engaging?Whether it’s online or in person.   [00:51:13] Miko Lee: We need to gather up our brothers, our nephews, our uncles, gather ’em all up, talk about our real, Asian American history of resistance, our power, our ability to move forward, connect with that in person, pull them outta the manosphere, connect all together so that we could move forward as a community in solidarity with each other.   [00:51:37] Rachel Koelzer: Absolutely. There’s opportunities across the board regardless, of where your particular position is. Even if you’re not a part of a community organization or you’re a teacher, a parent. One of the things that also came up in this study was that across ideologies, across the political spectrum and across age groups, there was a significant number. It was like close to 70 or over 70% had shared experiences, of being discouraged from showing emotions, from being, from seeing, modeled from the men in their lives, examples of stoicism. Of, more traditional masculinity, more traditional gender norms. And so there is this also aspect of, yeah, bringing in folks, bringing in our nephews, our brothers, our cousins, our friends, our uncles, and a reflection upon what can we do to be, raising our next generations, our current and our next generations, to value themselves and those around them who are different. To be able to express emotions, be able to have deep, reciprocal relationships, , and to have respect and understand what it means to reflect on one’s privilege that comes as a result of, an identity in this very hierarchical world, whether it’s, as a man under patriarchy or white, under white supremacy. These are skills that can be taught and can be learned. I think that this is also an opportunity to be reflecting on how we as a society understanding these    [00:53:33] Miko Lee: Well, Rachel Koelzer, thank you so much for joining me and sharing about your report. How can people find out more about your work?   [00:53:42] Rachel Koelzer: Thank you so much for having me. You can follow NAKASEC on most social media platforms. Visit our website. We’ve got tons of resources and information there and check out our local affiliates. You can find out more about them on our website and on our socials. If you are, you know, in the area, would love to see you.    [00:54:01] Miko Lee: Thank you so much.    [00:54:03] Rachel Koelzer: Thank you.   [00:54:04] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for joining us. Just a note that Apex Express will be off air for fundrive until May 28th, but we wanna acknowledge that May is Asian American, native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander Heritage Month, and there are film festivals and cultural events happening all around the country that celebrate our diverse experiences. One Bay Area one to note is CAAMFEST. It’s back! The center of Asian American media returns for its 44th year and its festival from May 7th through the 10th is at the Kabuki Theater, a MC in San Francisco with an amazing program of impressive filmmakers. Check it out, maybe I’ll see you there and happy AANHPI month. Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night..    The post APEX Express – 4.30.26 – Bruce Lee and the Manosphere appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 4.23.26 – Nurses of The Pitt 23.04.2026 59мин

  APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight, host Isabel Li speaks with actresses Amielynn Abellera and Kristin Villanueva, who respectively play Nurse Perlah and Nurse Princess on the HBO Max medical drama, The Pitt. Abellera and Villanueva talk about their Filipino heritage and backgrounds and how they represent Filipina healthcare professionals on the show. See also: Filipinos on the Frontline Amielynn Abellera: Instagram Kristin Villanueva: Instagram Transcript [00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.  00:00:52 Isabel Li  Thank you for tuning in to Apex Express. Last Thursday, season 2 of the HBO Max medical drama The Pitt released its season 2 finale, including a hectic season following medical professionals in the emergency room and giving a realistic depiction of real-world issues in hospitals. I’m Isabel Li, one of the hosts here on APEX Express, and I’m so honored to be joined by two members of that cast tonight who play the two Filipina nurses on The Pitt. They were recently awarded the Actor Award for Outstanding Performance by an Ensemble in a Drama Series.  00:01:28 Isabel Li  First, let’s hear from actress Amielynn Abellera, who plays Nurse Perla, a Muslim Filipina nurse on the show.  00:01:36 Isabel Li  Hi Amielynn, what an honor it is to be speaking to you today. Welcome to Apex Express.  00:01:41 Amielynn Abellera  Thank you. Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be speaking with you, too.  00:01:45 Isabel Li  So many of our listeners might know you from the HBO Max show, The Pitt, which I have so very much enjoyed. This is actually the first medical show that I have watched, and I really, really admire, like, all of the ensemble casts and, you know, everything coming to life. And you play the Muslim Filipina nurse, Perlah Alawi. We’ll talk more about your performance and your character in a little bit, but first, this is a question that I ask all my guests: Can you tell us, how do you identify? And is there a story that you think really encapsulates your identity?  00:02:17 Amielynn Abellera  Gosh, I identify as Amielynn Dumac Abellera. She, her, hers. I’m a Filipino American, daughter of two immigrants. And I’m so thrilled and happy to be talking to you and to sharing my experience of my life.  00:02:42 Isabel Li  Absolutely. Of course, The Pitt is a medical show. And is it true that you come from a medical background yourself? Like I heard that you were a psychobiology major in undergrad.  00:02:51 Amielynn Abellera  Yeah, I was pursuing medicine for a long time. I studied pre-med in undergrad at Santa Clara University, majoring in psychobiology, which is psychology with basically a minor in biology. I really wanted to get into neuroscience and or be an oncologist. And I was pursuing that all the way till I graduated and applying to medical school and getting interviews. But ever since I was a kid, for as long as I can remember, I was really also passionate about acting and theater and film and television and being on stage. But it was really just seen as a hobby in my mind and in sort of my environment’s mind. I never really prioritized it as a career, and it was never seen as a possible career. Um, so I just had it on the back burner. And, you know, I was getting, getting closer and closer to medical school and getting more and more anxious that I would regret not pursuing acting. And so sort of after waffling for many years, I decided to audition for a master’s in fine arts and acting. And that was because I didn’t really have any formal training in acting. I didn’t study it in undergrad or, you know, in my younger years. It was just all through life experience and being in plays and art and everything like that. And so I thought if I get into one of these programs, maybe that means I have something to offer. And I was going to take that as the sign that I needed to give myself a chance. And so I got into two programs, and I was thrilled. And I moved to LA to attend the University of Southern California’s MFA program. And the rest is history. Here I am.  00:04:47 Isabel Li  Wow. How does being a former pre-med influence your current role as a nurse on the show? Do you remember any like terms from science classes that you’re like, oh, wow, I remember that in those lines.  00:05:00 Amielynn Abellera  Yeah, yeah, totally. And you know, I spent a lot of time in hospitals and clinics and my dad is a former family practitioner. He had his own medical practice and my mom is a nurse practitioner and she worked in the CCU in the hospital for many years. So I was really familiar with how nurses interacted with patients and hearing the terminology and the medical language a lot.  So it is a cool throwback and always a really, I love how it’s so familiar to me ’cause it’s, I still have to work at it quite a bit when, you know, when it’s all coming at me and I have to have it down for when we’re filming, but I’m not as, as intimidated by it as I probably would be if I didn’t have a background.  00:05:50 Isabel Li  And out of curiosity, when you got the audition for the pit, did you have to sort of immerse yourself back into that realm of science and that medical background in order to bring out that character when you were  first being introduced to Nurse Perlah?  00:06:04 Amielynn Abellera  Yeah, a little bit. And I feel that with any role, you kind of, before you go in for the audition or even when you’re now filming or you have a part, you just have to kind of get into that world, obviously and really put yourself in the actual experience of what this person’s going through. And it did help me to be able to use my imagination so vividly from my previous experience of being in an OR and being in a hospital.  I remember when I was doing an internship when I was sort of in the break between graduating undergrad and pursuing medical school, I remember watching a C-section. And I remember — I remember the doctors talking, the surgeons talking, the anesthetic going in, the blood everywhere, the scalpels, the blood pressures, the oxymeter dropping. So, it really — I think back to the real-life fear that I had in all of those those procedures and I just, you know, bring it to Nurse Perlah.  00:07:16 Isabel Li  It’s incredible. I want to start off by talking about, for Nurse Perlah specifically, that Perlah’s identity is a Filipina and a Muslim nurse.  What did you do to prepare for a role that is so specific in terms of these cultural representations?  00:07:33 Amielynn Abellera  Sure. Thank you for asking that. I am thrilled that Perlah is on television. She is a Filipino American Muslim woman nurse. And I have never seen that. And it’s just rarely ever seen on mainstream media. So, in preparing for it, I mean, truly, I had two weeks before we started filming by the time I got the role. And it was go time already. So I didn’t have a ton of time, but I did my best to sort of deep dive into learning about the Muslim faith, trying to reach out to different Filipino American Muslims in my community to kind of just hear their experience. And, you know, I quickly learned that it would be impossible for me to sort of understand the full experience completely. And so I just kind of, I realized that the only question that I needed to answer for myself going into filming as Perlah was, is there anything about the Muslim way of life that would influence or adjust or be a part of their nursing or would it shift it at all? And or how would it affect their job?  And, you know, after talking to several Filipino American Muslim nurses, there, there wasn’t anything that it would do to either to shift or do anything to get in the way of their patient care. They are, it’s still their priority just to care relentlessly for this patient and have as much empathy as possible. And to be honest, I’m still learning as I go along with playing Perlah and as scripts come in and I still ask a lot of questions of how would Perlah specifically understand this procedure or understand this text or understand what she’s doing and just keep asking questions.  00:09:30 Isabel Li  And the majority of The Pitt itself takes place on a hospital set. I’m wondering if you had a vision of what Perlah does outside of the hospital?  00:09:39 Amielynn Abellera  Well, I think Perlah is, she’s been at this hospital, PTMC, pretty much, this was her first job, she really wanted to work there in this urban setting.  And she’s been there probably for over eight years or something, like through COVID. I think she is a single mom and she has two children who are both under the age of 10. So I think she’s exhausted, but she loves nursing. She loves her kids. And she is just, she knows how to compartmentalize and work hard and like protect herself. She knows how to leave, at least she thinks she knows how to leave the job at the door in order to go home and be with her children.  00:10:24 Isabel Li  Uh-huh. And is this something, also, I’m just curious, like, is this something that you had to imagine yourself or did some of the writers sort of drop some hints during production?  00:10:35 Amielynn Abellera  I mean, a little bit of both, I think. There are only some hints in the script in the pilot and the first season where it’s dropping like, oh, she has some kids and she’s exhausted and kind of eye-rolling — Yeah, and pets — And sort of eye-rolling exhausted by what’s happening at home. And it’s, I am a mother of a five and a half year old. She’s almost six right now. So I sort of understand that exhaustion, but like deep love for my child. But it’s like, I’m happy to go to work and have them at school, but I’m also missing them. It’s just this like journey of a mother. So it was a bit of me sort of creating that backstory, but also just from the hints of the writers.  00:11:23 Isabel Li  Definitely. I think something that’s so special about The Pitt as a medical show is its accuracy in depicting the very hectic lives of healthcare professionals, especially in an emergency room setting. So Nurse Perlah is often mediating like some sort of communication and really emphasizing medical jargon or reading off data. What was it like memorizing all of these different lines and delivering it in a way that felt authentic to the way that healthcare professionals might?  00:11:50 Amielynn Abellera  Sure. Oh my gosh. It’s really challenging. I think as soon as I get the scripts, and again, thank goodness I have a sort of familiarity with having a little bit of a medical background, but you know, that was years ago. So anytime I get a script, I immediately go to the hard stuff and get that in my brain as soon as possible. And a trick that I do is, as soon as I have it memorized, I’m just saying it all day and doing things with my hands. Like I do it when I’m folding laundry. I do it when I’m washing dishes. I do it when I’m cooking. I’m doing it when I’m driving, just because as soon as it’s second nature, and that’s the thing about healthcare professionals, they’re constantly, like they’re not thinking about what they’re saying. They’re, it’s so awesomely competent in their brain, that is not difficult. That’s actually like them just having a conversation.  So I love trying to get to that point and showing how Perlah is just so competent in all of that stuff and doesn’t even have to think about it while putting in an IV.  00:13:00 Isabel Li  Absolutely. Oh my gosh. And I think like a lot of our listeners, maybe if they watch The Pitt and a lot of audience members really enjoy the lighthearted moments that you share with Princess, also another Filipina nurse played by Kristin Villanueva, especially that Nurse Perlah code-switches with her using Tagalog as a language.  Can you tell our listeners what that code-switching feels like to you and how you relate to Tagalog as a language?  00:13:25 Amielynn Abellera  Yeah, totally. Thank you for asking. I, as Amielynn Abellera, the actor, I grew up, I was born and raised in Stockton, California, and my parents spoke Tagalog and Ilocano at home all the time. And unfortunately, they didn’t teach me. So I’m actually not fluent in Tagalog at home.  I’m that Filipino American who later in life got voracious about wanting to embrace her heritage and learn it like in her adult life. And I think that translates with Perlah. I do, I think that Perlah is also, was also born and raised in the United States to two Filipinos who came from Mindanao. And even though she had the ear for it, I think that she’s learning it later in life. And I think she absolutely is so happy to have, Princess as her buddy because she can practice.  Um, because I think like the only way to learn is to constantly be talking every day. And I think Perlah does that. I think she finds any opportunity to celebrate joyfully her heritage by speaking the language with Princess. I think they both do. So it’s really close to, to my own personal experience with Tagalog because right now I am learning Tagalog on my own, taking lessons and things like that in order to teach my daughter as well, just to have it in our life more. But I think that is also what Perlah is doing.  00:14:58 Isabel Li  Yeah. And for you specifically, how and when did you start learning Tagalog?  00:15:03 Amielynn Abellera  Yeah, I think it really is. Like I said, my parents came in the ’70s to Stockton, California, as a doctor and a nurse. And, you know, that generation, at that time, their priority was assimilation, so they didn’t really teach me. And our Filipino-ness was a little bit second place, in terms of, not in a negative way, but it just was, it took a little bit of second priority as opposed to assimilating to our environment in Stockton, California. And so, however, whatever seeds were planted in there to not really pursue Tagalog or pursue, to learn and be curious about my Filipino heritage, that was sort of the majority of my childhood and into my college years. And it wasn’t until, I think, college and beyond when I started to Honestly, I think it was when I was exposed to Filipino cultural night in university, at Santa Clara University, where, all of a sudden, I was with all these other Filipino-Americans who had such a voracious sort of celebration and wanting to learn like the dances, the language, the style, the textiles, the clothing, the music, and they would study it and we would, they would just be so passionate about it.  And that really was an experience for me of, oh my gosh, I didn’t, it wasn’t like I was neglecting it on purpose. It’s just, that wasn’t in my life. So when that was happening for me, I slowly, slowly really wanted to start learning the language and started taking lessons probably in my twenties. And then, you know, but again, it’s a lifelong process to learn another language. It’s challenging. Um, and I wish, I wish I was, I wish I was at the level of Perlah where she has a buddy all the time to practice, practice, practice. But I don’t have that in my home or in my workplace right now, except with Princess at the hospital.  00:17:28 Isabel Li  Gotcha, gotcha. And currently, at the time of this interview, season two of The Pitt is in progress, and you had some really emotionally nuanced moments in the 12 o’clock episode. I’m not going to spoil it too much, but when Perlah reacts to losing a long-term patient, I’m wondering for you, as an actress, can you tell us about how you’re able to switch from some, you know, more lighthearted scenes to moments that really emphasize the darker, heavier aspects of being in medicine, like death and disease.  How do you portray and balance that?  00:18:02 Amielynn Abellera  Sure. Yeah. Thank you for asking. I think nurses are amazing in that way where I don’t know if it’s a blessing or a curse to be able to compartmentalize such extremes of feeling and experiences of loss of patients on the hour, every hour, and being able to move on to sort of uplift and help other patients on the hour, every hour. But I think Perlah, as such an experienced, competent nurse, has learned how to switch it on, switch it off, but I do feel that something that episode 206 was trying to shine a light on is what of that armor has cracks or what of that armor isn’t as strong for certain patients or she or what of that armor is, uh, what if that punch… I’m not able to recover as easily as I usually am? So, um, and I think that must happen all the time with healthcare professionals of what they have to do. I think they have to experience losing loved ones and patients and friends who are patients all the time. And how is it that they get back up to be there for the next one?  So I was– it was ultimately challenging, but I’m so glad that that episode showed that dynamic.  00:19:34 Isabel Li  Speaking of a hospital setting, I imagine it’s quite a unique set to be one, and The Pitt definitely emphasizes the realism of being in a hospital. Like, we see lots of different types of medical equipment, hand sanitizer, very relevant, pressing things that make us feel like we’re almost, like, engaging with the show in a sense. How do you describe that set?  00:19:56 Amielynn Abellera  To me, I really feel like it’s a real hospital. Everything pretty much works almost like the real thing, but it doesn’t, right? So like the water fountain looks, smells, feels like a real water fountain and it is until it just doesn’t shoot out water, right? Like everything is so amazing.  And I think that’s what Nina Ruscio, our set designer wanted to build and working with all the executives was they wanted to build this entire whole hospital to really immerse us in the reality of it. And there, a lot of times there are real needles that we have to close up on, but then when we do something actually, we switch it out for a dull needle. So it is, it’s really very, this balance and like a real scalpel that needs to look so sharp, but then as soon as it’s, actually near the skin, it is a dull scalpel, and then that’s also a prosthetic. So sometimes I can’t tell what’s real and not real. I just kind of…I just have to jump in and kind of engage with it. And then if it’s the real thing, not be freaked out. So yeah, but it’s, it’s, it’s a part of the…It’s so, it’s so incredibly fun.   I’m so fascinated by this hospital that I basically go to work to like a real nurse at 5:00 in the morning every day for a 12-hour shift. And I put on the scrubs, and then I take off the scrubs. So I kind of feel like so much like a real nurse, but also not.  00:21:42 Isabel Li  How do you think The Pitt has influenced you as an actress? After being on this show, have your goals as an actress changed? What do you see yourself doing in the future?  00:21:52 Amielynn Abellera  Yeah, So, I mean, I am really in a dream right now. It feels…like I probably had this dream of, you know, really being invited on a show from its initial season, initial episode, and being a part of a team from the very beginning, originating a role that is representing so many different cultural dimensions, like across the board. And also the show being so successful and having an impact globally, not only for healthcare workers, but, you know, the diversity that is the reality of the world.  So it’s hard to think ahead. I kind of just want this to last as long as possible for Nurse Perlah and for Amielynn. And, you know, I’ve learned to be in my acting career just putting one foot in front of the other and trusting that where it’s going will lead to the next piece in my universe. And I– the moment I try to plan something or want something to happen, it will not happen. I think I just have to trust the journey and how the universe will put what’s meant to be in front of me.  00:23:17 Isabel Li  And as an actress, what are you the most passionate about doing in any role that you play?  00:23:23 Amielynn Abellera  Well, I love the human experience. I love what that did to me as a young artist and as a young kid and what that ignited in me watching like an actor go through it and it’d be so real and me be so moved. And I love being that vehicle for other audience members. And as the actor, I can feel if I’m hitting a stride with it. And it’s a really exhilarating process. And it just reignites why I love being an actor.  00:24:06 Isabel Li  For all the listeners who have watched The Pitt, or for those of our listeners who have yet to watch The Pitt, and they definitely will after hearing this episode — what do you want the listeners or the audience members to take away from watching The Pitt, from seeing you as Nurse Perlah in it?  00:24:23 Amielynn Abellera  Yeah, well, first off, I hope you go home and turn on your HBO Max and watch The Pitt to all of you who haven’t seen it yet. And I hope you enjoy it. And I just hope that you watch it and are entertained, but also you walk away with learning something about humanity and our healthcare workers and also laughing and crying and being fascinated as much as we are behind the scenes. We’re really having such an excellent time creating this show. And we’re so thrilled that audience members love it as much as we love making it.  So I hope you have that same exhilaration and elation as we all do here.  00:25:10 Isabel Li  I’ll put a link to your social media on kpfa.org so our listeners can follow you there. And thank you so much, Amielynn, for joining me on Apex Express today.  00:25:20 Amielynn Abellera  Well, thank you for having me. I’m excited to talk to you and to share my story. And thank you for listening.  00:25:27 Isabel Li  That was actress Amielynn Abellera, who plays Nurse Perlah, one of the Filipina nurses on The Pitt. And we’re about to hear from one more actress from the show. But before that, here’s a music break with 7000 Miles by Ruby Ibarra.  00:25:59 [MUSIC: 7000 Miles by Ruby Ibarra]  00:30:07 Isabel Li  And that was the song 7,000 Miles by Ruby Avara here on KPFA.  00:30:11 Isabel Li  Thanks for tuning in to Apex Express tonight, where our next guest is the actress Kristin Villanueva, who plays Nurse Princess De La Cruz, another Filipina nurse on the HBO Max medical show, The Pitt. Hi Kristin, welcome to APEX Express.  00:30:29 Kristin Villanueva  Hi Isabel, thanks for having me.  00:30:32 Isabel Li  Absolutely. My first question for you is, how do you identify and what’s your story?  00:30:37 Kristin Villanueva  I am Filipino American. I was born and raised in Manila, Philippines, and I moved to the Washington DC area when I was 15.  00:30:47 Isabel Li  How did you get into becoming an actress?  00:30:50 Kristin Villanueva  Kind of by accident. When I moved to the States and I was at my new high school. I joined the drama program just because we didn’t have that in my school in the Philippines and that was something I’ve always been interested in. So yeah, I auditioned and I didn’t know that the drama teacher was a very serious one. Like, you either join the drama club or you play softball, you can’t have both. So yeah, that’s how I got introduced.  00:31:27 Isabel Li  And at a young age, what kinds of films or movies really inspired you to pursue drama?  00:31:33 Kristin Villanueva  I don’t think it inspired me to pursue drama, but my choice of movies, my favorite movies when I was younger is, I would say, is a little bit peculiar for an eight-year-old, for a 10-year-old. But I remember watching Kramer vs. Kramer with Dustin Hoffman and Meryl Streep and it having such an effect in my little eight-year-old self. I was so moved by it. And also Legends of the Fall with Anthony Hopkins, Aidan Quinn and Brad Pitt.  And like, what does a 10-year-old Filipino girl have anything in common with these turn of the century, 19th century, you know, Montana cowboys? You know, it’s just so random, but for some reason I just fell in love with it. Maybe I just fell in love with Brad Pitt, but, yeah, those heavy dramas had an impact in me, even though I didn’t know exactly what it was.  00:32:35 Isabel Li  So you play Nurse Princess on the HBO Max medical show The Pitt, and which, at the time of this interview, we’re, you know, getting towards the finale of season two very, very quickly. I’ve really been enjoying season two. And first of all, congratulations on winning Outstanding Performance by an ensemble in a drama series. That’s so incredible.  00:32:54 Kristin Villanueva  Thank you so much. Yeah, it’s been a wild ride.  00:32:57 Isabel Li  Yeah. Can I just say, Princess is such an energetic and confident character, and it’s really fun watching you play a healthcare professional in such a hectic setting of an emergency room. What do you do to get in character of Princess?  00:33:11 Kristin Villanueva  Ooh, that’s a great question. She has such a vibrant energy when she’s at the ED, and I don’t need a lot to prep myself to get to that level because I’m just excited to be at the Warner Brothers lot, and being on set and being with very kind people. So it doesn’t take a lot to get in that mindset. Maybe if it’s a 5.30am call, maybe I need a little bit more coffee to get there. But in terms of my emotion and excitement and energy, I don’t need to do that much because, yeah, it kind of, it’s parallel in my real life and in Princess’s life of just doing what they both want to do. But in terms of, I would say, the difference is, I wish I had Princess’s confidence in my life more. You know, she’s very confident in everything that she does. You know, she knows she’s good, and she isn’t shy to show it. Because I think when she shows it, it’s not to show. It’s just to do, you know? Um, so I wish I have more and more of that in my life.  00:34:35 Isabel Li  For you, what’s the most challenging part of playing Princess?  00:34:39 Kristin Villanueva  I would say, well, first, the lines, the medical jargon and the technicality of things. So, thankfully, we have amazing med techs that are always right next to us, correcting us, you know, making us feel more confident, guiding us, answering all our questions. So, yeah, making sure that I look like I know what I’m doing. So that would be, I would say, the hardest part.  00:35:08 Isabel Li  Yeah, and on that note, like in many of her moments, Princess is so often mediating communication for medical information in so many different ways. How do you prepare for a role like that where you have to, I mean, you mentioned some things about needing to like look and act the part and you have some people helping you, but what are some other things that you do to really have you, you know, help practice sounding like a healthcare professional?  00:35:35 Kristin Villanueva  First, I Google everything. And then I make sure I’m able to explain it in my own words, so whatever the procedure is. Don’t ask me anything now, because once I’m done filming, it leaves my brain. So yes, I research everything. And then when it comes to memorization, if it’s, the nurses have a lot of numbers. We may not have a lot of the long words, Latin words, medicine words that the doctors do, but we have to say a lot of different numbers, you know, BP 160 over 20 and all of that. So what I do is I would record the other people’s lines, make leave a space for my lines and just play it all day, every day. When I’m walking the dog, when I’m doing dishes, when I’m folding laundry. So I can get it in my body while I’m doing different things. Because I notice that if I’m just sitting down and memorizing my lines, and then I get to set the next day, and all of a sudden, you know, I’m given all these choreography and I’m moving, or they change the choreography in the middle, that gets really tricky. So doing my lines while moving helps a lot. And then of course, the things that I can Google as much as I can, but then I take advantage of having, like I said, the med techs on set. Then I ask them about their emotional experiences behind procedures. So things I start with, okay, is this procedure an everyday thing? How often do you see it? How often do you deal with it? And then from there, I ask if it’s something interesting that it’s like they’ve only heard of but never actually seen in practice. What would you do? They say, if you’re not busy, you run to that room and watch it, that kind of thing. And if it’s an emotional scene, then I ask them, how do you deal with these things? Then I get to hear their experiences and how they cope with it after the shift.  00:37:53 Isabel Li  Did you know anything about medicine or the emergency room before this role?  00:37:59 Kristin Villanueva  No, I think I’m one of those very rare Filipinos that don’t really have a lot of healthcare professionals in their families. I do have a cousin who’s a radiologist and my husband’s side of family. There are a lot of nurses and that’s my mother-in-law included, but no, I have zero.  00:38:20 Isabel Li  Oh, wow. So I watched some of your other interviews and I found it really interesting that you had talked about like telling your agent not to submit you to roles on nurses, on projects, unless it was specifically featured.  Can you tell us more about that and how you navigate like the Filipino representation in medical shows, especially in The Pitt as an actress yourself?  00:38:41 Kristin Villanueva  Sure. I was getting a lot of, I wouldn’t say a lot, but I would often get auditions for nurses in medical shows or non-medical shows. And I’ve played them before and I’ve been very grateful for those experiences. One of them was a movie opposite Susan Sarandon.  So Susan Sarandon was also playing a nurse. So all of my scenes was with her. So those are very cool experiences. But because I’ve played them a number of times, then I told my agents at one point, hey, unless, like you said, the nurse part is more featured or has more lines other than yes, doctor, then sure, I would audition because I’ve done it.  And I also didn’t want to perpetuate that sad practice of, you know, okay, let’s have one Filipino or one Asian nurse and check that box off.  Because it does feel that way. And it’s just not the real world. So when The Pitt came and I saw the breakdown, it’s a heftier breakdown for the part of Nurse Princess. I mean, and just looking at her name, Princess de la Cruz, I was like, somebody did the research. I’m like, all right, okay, I’ll put myself on tape for this.  00:39:59 Isabel Li  Yeah, and I love how Princess as a character is written to be such a crucial part of the team. Very competent, very quick on her feet. Are there any ways where you, yourself, got to influence how Princess was portrayed, maybe beyond the scripts or, you know, in any ways that you could add to that character?  00:40:19 Kristin Villanueva  I think so? I’m not sure, but I have noticed that in season two, on the scripts, Princess’s, looks, eye rolls, stares were now written. Whereas before, I was just doing it. So yes, I think so. Because I didn’t have a lot of lines. I still don’t have a lot of lines, but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t have an opinion. And yeah, I was just being truthful in all those moments. So if I feel like something’s off or, you know, I don’t think Princess has a good poker face. So that made its way into the script recently.  00:41:05 Isabel Li  Oh, I see. Well, the show primarily takes place in a hospital setting. But for you, when you’re playing Princess, do you imagine what she does, like, outside of the hospital? Like, who is she outside of work?  00:41:16 Kristin Villanueva  I think when there is an after party or somebody’s birthday, someone’s baptism, or, I think she’s the same. I think she’s a work hard, party harder kind of girl. But I can also see her turning everything off and having a lot of deep, quiet solo time that she doesn’t talk about much often.  00:41:44 Isabel Li  Yeah, something so cool about Princess is the fact that she can apparently speak six languages. But I wanted to talk about the fact that you, as Princess, code-switched to Tagalog in many scenes, especially with Amielynn Abellera, who plays Nurse Perlah. For you, can you tell our listeners how it feels for you switching from English to Tagalog?  00:42:05 Kristin Villanueva  Well, first off, the first word that comes to mind is it’s fun. You know, you get to use that skill or use that — used to be a very familiar part of myself again. But I also feel extremely vulnerable because I don’t get to do that often. I don’t think I’ve, maybe I’ve acted once in Tagalog, but I can’t remember any other significant roles where I was able to do that. So to do that on The Pitt is, yeah, it’s pretty vulnerable just in terms of sharing that part of myself that I haven’t shared really acting-wise.  But it’s also fun. Because it comes naturally. And I get to there’s so many nuances that I would think only Filipinos would get, but it’s also so gratifying to hear from from other folks who are not Filipinos that get it. You know, even though they don’t understand, um, the Filipino jokes, but they have their own — they have their own version in their own culture. So it’s — it’s really fun to hear that.  00:43:18 Isabel Li  Just out of curiosity for you, how do you relate to Tagalog as a language? Do you speak it often?  00:43:24 Kristin Villanueva  I don’t speak it often, unfortunately. I do still speak it with my family, and we Zoom once, twice a week. But other than that, no, I don’t speak it often.  And it’s kind of sad, because I feel like some words are leaving my memory. But yeah.  00:43:45 Isabel Li  Yeah, wow. So when they’re written in the script, do you translate, or are they already words in Tagalog that you already know?  00:43:54 Kristin Villanueva  When they’re written in the script, they’re written in English. And season one, I used to translate it for myself. And then season two, we have a coach who gave us a lot more options. But what’s wonderful about working with the writers is they’re not precious with their own phrases.  They defer to us to translate it as close to the gist of, let’s say it’s a joke, but if I were to translate it in Tagalog, word per word, it’s not going to land the same way as it would in American, in English. Do you know what I mean? So they much rather have us say it in whatever’s parallel in Tagalog. So yeah. And I applaud the writers for doing that, ’cause that’s one of my pet peeves sometimes when I’m, you know, watching other shows, translation of, it’s not quite that, you know, or it’s too literal. If it’s too literal, then it’s, that’s not how we talk.  00:44:59 Isabel Li  Right. And putting that in the context of Princess as a character, who is a polyglot, there are some moments where she speaks French and does sign language.  00:45:08 Isabel Li  How did you navigate these multilingual exchanges communicating in different languages, essentially. Oh, I look forward to it. I look forward to them so badly. It’s one of the things I got really excited about auditioning for the part, ’cause it was written in her breakdown that she speaks six languages. Um, I personally don’t, but I am so enamored by polyglots. Like if I were to meet someone who can speak three languages plus, I’m just, I follow them like a puppy. I don’t know, I just find it so sexy and intriguing. And it’s like something that I aspire to be, but just haven’t had the time to do it. So yes, I look forward to them.  00:45:52 Isabel Li  Yeah, and how do you practice? Like, did you have to practice some French and some ASL?  00:45:57 Kristin Villanueva  Oh, um, for the French, since there’s only one line, we didn’t hire a coach, but we did hire, um, coaches for ASL. Oh, yeah, I just practiced the hell out of them. Um, but there’s also that nuance of, um, how fluent or how good is your pronunciation for someone who doesn’t speak it all the time, you know? You got to, like, factor that in as well. But, yes, I just practice it all the time.  00:46:24 Isabel Li  Gotcha. And speaking of that, I love how Princess and Perlah add some lighthearted humor and back and forths and gossip throughout the series. How do you switch from humorous moments to more serious ones?  00:46:36 Kristin Villanueva  I mean, you don’t really think about it in life, right? Like one minute you’re crying and then something happens and then you find it hilarious. You just go with the flow on set. You don’t really ever plan, okay, this beat is a funny beat, and this one is a dramatic beat. You don’t. As long as you keep it honest, those colors would come out naturally.  00:47:02 Isabel Li  The Pitt is very current. Like there are so many current events and everyday sort of issues mirrored in the series. What is your experience working with a set and a story that feels like it is very much set in the everyday?  00:47:21 Kristin Villanueva  It hasn’t been an issue. It’s never– if anything, sometimes it’s tougher because you can’t escape the real world, right? It’s not like when I get to do a Shakespeare comedy, there’s a reprieve from, you know, the sad current events that are happening. So yeah, that’s– I would say that’s the only downside, but there’s a lot more upside to that, which is you get to present and work through real life situations. You know, that I’m happy that a TV show like The Pitt, you know, something that’s made for entertainment can actually dive into these really serious topics. And what I love about The Pitt is that I don’t think it’s preachy. I don’t think it tackles headlines of the day in a way that it makes you want to turn the TV off. If anything, it shows how, it shows the repercussions on the everyday people. And hopefully audiences that don’t have anything to do, like I’ll give you an example, like for nurses strikes, right? If you see that on the headline and you don’t work, you’re not a healthcare worker, you’ll probably just, you know, skip that video or not read that article because you think it doesn’t affect you.  But hopefully by watching The Pitt, you’ll see, oh no, it will affect me if God forbid I have to go to the hospital, if my loved one has to go to the hospital and you don’t get seen for 10 hours, or there were mistakes in, the medicine, or it’s just not top care that you think you deserve. It’s not because the nurses or the doctors or the staff are bad. They’re understaffed, period. Right? They haven’t had a day off in 12 days. So no, it’s a privilege to be able to do a show, have a job that actually reflects what’s happening in real life.  00:49:40 Isabel Li  Yeah, thank you for sharing about that. And finally, I want to touch upon your work in general. As an actress, would you say there’s something that you’re most passionate about doing?  00:49:50 Kristin Villanueva  Ooh. Are we talking about material or medium? Because I would say everything. I do miss doing plays. I haven’t done a play since, my gosh, I think pre-COVID. So it’s been a while. So I really love doing plays. I have more experience in theater than TV and film combined. A really good material is so inspiring to do, whether it be a classic like Chekhov or any new contemporary plays. You know, there’s so many playwrights, those plays I want to do so badly. There’s something electric about working on a brand new play when the playwright is in the room. But also, it’s also really amazing to work on juicy Shakespearean tragedies. You know, when I get to play Shakespeare ingenues, in those three hours, you’ve lived a lifetime. You know, usually in a Shakespearean comedy, you meet the ingenue before they fall in love. And then they fall in love, and then they get their hearts broken. And then by the end, they’re kind of this new person who’s a little bit more learned, but not the same 16-year-old that you met three hours ago. So getting to do those parts are a complete joy.  00:51:29 Isabel Li  I’m wondering, do you have a dream role that you’d like to play in the future? Like either in theater or in film? Who would it be and who would you like to work with?  00:51:37 Kristin Villanueva  I love this question. My imagination just starts going everywhere. Yes. My dream role for the theater would be Martha from Edward Albee’s Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf? I got to do that play a few years ago, but as Honey, as one of the other characters. But I would love to play Martha someday. Another theater role would be Arkadina from The Seagull or Nina, but I think I’ve aged out of Nina. And in terms for like TV, gosh, I’m obsessed with Narcos, obsessed. And I’ve always, I’ve written a part from, if Narcos was ever to do a season about the Philippines, I have a role that I wrote for myself. Cause I don’t, you know, you look at my face, like, my face is too round and I’m too short and I smile too much for a show like Narcos or The Wire, which are, like, one of my top, top favorite TV shows.  And I don’t have a part for them ’cause I don’t look the part, but I found a way to write myself in Narcos season, I don’t know, season five Philippines.  00:53:09 Isabel Li  One last question for you. These are such incredible answers. Thank you so much for sharing. One last question for you. Out of your entire acting career right now, what has been the most rewarding moment for you?  00:53:22 Kristin Villanueva  I mean, besides The Pitt, mainly because of the reach and mainly because a lot of Filipino nurses have become so happy just to be seen and represented. And that means so, so much, another role that I am most proud of is this play — I wouldn’t even say play — it’s more of a performance art piece called The Courtroom. The theater company called Waterwell produced it in New York. And The Courtroom is about a Filipino immigrant to the US who accidentally voted when she was still only on a green card. So she wasn’t supposed to vote, but she did not do it maliciously. So the play is about her filing appeal after appeal to stay in the U.S. and not be deported. So I was pretty proud of that. We used, the lines were straight out of the court transcripts. And yeah, I wish we could do it again, especially with, you know, the current climate.  00:54:38 Isabel Li  Yeah, definitely. Well, thank you so much, Kristin, for sharing her story and all of your various experiences. Do you have anything else you’d like to share with our listeners?  00:54:47 Kristin Villanueva  Oh, just thank you so much for watching The Pitt and, you know, for all the nice words about the show. And I hope you keep watching.  00:55:00 Isabel Li  And that was Kristin Villanueva, who plays Nurse Princess De La Cruz on The Pitt, which just released its season 2 finale last week at this time.  Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our two guests tonight, Kristin and Amielynn. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important.  00:55:31 Isabel Li  Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show is produced and edited by me, Isabel Li. Have a great evening and thanks so much for listening.  The post APEX Express – 4.23.26 – Nurses of The Pitt appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 4.16.26 – Rethinking Immigration Detention 16.04.2026 59мин

  APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. On this episode, host Miata Tan speaks with three guests from Tsuru for Solidarity, a nationwide organization working to end immigration detention in the United States. They discuss the current state of the system, the conditions facing immigrant and asylum-seeking families, and how Tsuru’s Japanese American roots shape their approach to this work. Get Involved with Tsuru for Solidarity Join a campaign Mailing list Instagram | Facebook | YouTube Website   Transcript ​[00:00:00]  Miata Tan: Hello and welcome. I’m your host Miata Tan, and you are tuning into APEX Express, a weekly radio show that uplifts the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. The United States runs the largest immigration detention system in the world. Earlier this year, the US Immigration and Customs Enforcement, also known as ICE, [00:01:00] held a record. 73,000 people in immigration detention the highest number in the agency’s 23 year history. Since January 20, 25, over 6,200 kids have passed through ICE detention. Tonight we hear from a community who are shining a light on this issue and working to end the ongoing detention of immigrant and asylum seeking families.  Rob Buscher: The Japanese American story and Asian American story are just one chapter in this much larger chronicle of state violence, and we. See our role as, as also helping to connect the dots and be the connective tissue. Miata Tan: That was the voice of Rob Buscher, the Director of Operations at Tsuru for Solidarity, a nationwide organization with a mission to educate, advocate, and protest to close all US detention site. And bring an end to inhumane immigration policies. Tsuru for Solidarity is led by [00:02:00] the survivors and descendants of Japanese Americans who are incarcerated in concentration camps by the US government in World War ii. Our three guests tonight are shaping the future of this work at Tsuru for Solidarity. They share with us how the legacy of Japanese American wartime incarceration is deeply intertwined with the present day realities that many immigrant communities are facing. First up is Mike Ishii, the Executive Director of Tsuru for Solidarity. Here’s Mike taking us back to the inception of this organization and national movement. Mike Ishii: In 2016 the Obama administration decided to really lean into. A deterrence policy of immigration. When they had first entered office, we thought they may actually provide some relief for immigrants. But in fact, what they ended up doing was weaponizing the immigration policy at the southern border against immigrants. And they built [00:03:00] Karnes and Dilley, which were the first family detention centers. Carl Takei, one of the founding members of Tsuru for Solidarity. In fact, I think he was just honored by, the Asian Bar Association for his longtime advocacy work in community spaces. Well, in 2016 when the Obama administration really opened Karnes and Dilley, Carl was working at the A CLU in immigration and the Obama administration had the audacity to want to invite advocates from all over the country to show off their new detention centers. And so when Carl entered into those sites, what he encountered was a room that was. Full of giant cabinets floor to ceiling. And when they opened the doors, what he saw inside were thousands of shoes for infants. And it took his breath away and he realized, oh my God, these are concentration camps for children. And you know, this really. Resonated with his [00:04:00] own family’s history of mass incarceration during World War ii. So what he did was he immediately called Dr. Satsuki Ina, Dr. Ina is very famous. For a number of things. One is that she is really the preeminent community trauma specialist in the Japanese American community. She was born inside of the Tula Lake Segregation Center, a concentration camp. She would grow up to become a very, well-known psychotherapist in the Japanese American community. Dr. Ina. Is really like Carl’s auntie, and so he said, this is happening at the southern border. I want you to come have a look. She went inside and she was actually able to meet with families and their children, and she of course can do a psychological assessment  She began to advocate. Against these camps because what she realized was that the conditions, the experiences, the trauma that these children were experiencing was very similar to what our own survivors had experienced as children during World War ii in the US concentration caps. [00:05:00] So there’s one of the genesis prongs of Tsuru for solidarity. If you fast forward. To 2018, you have the zero tolerance policy under Trump, administration, 1.0. And if you remember, at that time, as an extension. of deterrence, they were separating children from their families at the southern border. These are families who were seeking refugee status, who were seeking asylum, who were presenting for asylum. That’s a constitutional and human right, protected by the Geneva Conventions. They would take those families, they would literally strip the children away from their parents. They deported the parents. Purposefully they did not record where they were sending them often deported not to countries of origin. So in many cases, we still have not reunited those families. We don’t know where the parents are and the children are still here, nine, 10 years later, With unaccompanied status because they purposefully destroyed the connections and the ability to [00:06:00] trace and reunite those families. That’s Trump 1.0. And when they were doing that they were also expanding these large congregate concentration caps for children. They were calling them influx centers and saying, oh, they’ll only be processed through these, and then we’ll release children into. Custody of family members, et cetera. That was not true. They were actually prisons for children and they were literal concentration camps. It’s violating the due process laws of the United States. there’s no accountability. There’s no oversight. And so Tsuru for Solidarity emerged in 2018 as an organization of Japanese Americans, really led by survivors who were children in camps and their descendants.  My own mother was incarcerated in a concentration camp in Idaho with her family. During World War ii, she was 10 years old at that time. She had two younger sisters and her youngest sister was born inside of the Minidoka concentration camp and experienced birth trauma because they had no doctors. She was, um, birthed by a veterinarian [00:07:00] and ex experienced, um, lack of oxygen And so she lived a life of tremendous suffering and, and disability. Um, that was often unrecognized as trauma from a concentration camp. She attempted to commit suicide multiple times. Eventually would die an early death from mental health. Complications. That’s the legacy of the camps of World War ii, and understanding that multi-generational impact is partly why suited for solidarity emerged in 2018 when we recognized that they were repeating our history, and that’s why we’re here today. Miata Tan: That was Mike Ishii, Executive Director at Tsuru for Solidarity. Mike described how Tsuru’s work grew in response to the ongoing detention of immigrant children in the United States. As he mentioned, many Japanese Americans have deep roots in this country. Now let’s hear from Rob Buscher Tsuru’s, Director of [00:08:00] Operations. He’s a mixed race yonsei or fourth generation Japanese American. You may hear him use terms like yonsei to describe different generations. Now, here’s Rob Unpacking the legacy of Japanese American incarceration, including the Civil Liberties Act of 1988, which issued a formal apology and reparations and what that history means for other communities today. Rob Buscher: In 2018 and 2019, our community was not the one that was at risk of being detained. We were not the ones who were being targeted by the state violence of immigrant detention and enforcement. and yet we had this ability to kind of think about and talk about. Multi-generational impacts of the trauma from World War ii. Um, it’s not just the survivors of camp and the children of camp. It’s the children and grandchildren of this experience who continue to suffer multi-generational effects of trauma, whether it be higher, uh, incidents of anxiety and stress leading to a [00:09:00] variety of health issues, uh, substance abuse issues the forced assimilation that resulted in the aftermath of our resettlement into the broader American society has also resulted in a great deal of assimilation trauma. So for a number of sansei and yonsei and gosei now trying to understand, uh, what is our history and heritage? How can we relate to something that was forcibly removed from us and really navigating this idea that at sometimes feels like a racial imposter syndrome, uh, when we don’t know our own histories because it was forcibly taken from us. In a variety of ways, uh, I think that the Japanese American community’s role, and specifically through Tsuru, has been rooted in this idea of solidarity and collective liberation because we understand that the effects. Our trauma, we’re part of this much longer continuum of anti-black racism, of anti indigenous genocide, of white supremacy in the United States. The [00:10:00] Japanese American story and Asian American story are just one chapter in this much larger chronicle of state violence, and we. See our role as, as also helping to connect the dots and be the connective tissue. In some cases, when communities who have experienced these kinds of traumas across many decades aren’t always in communication with each other, aren’t always in conversation, but the complexity and nuance of the American story actually lends itself to a number of parallels to have conversations around things like. Black reparations. And you know, this is another part of the work that Tsuru does in solidarity with black reparations and African American communities, descendants of chattel slavery and others who have suffered Jim Crow and other forms of state violence against black and brown communities. understanding that the, the redress story and the story of Japanese Americans receiving our own reparations. Uh, is part of this longer narrative around, uh, what does it mean to have reparative [00:11:00] justice? And, um, as some of the few people who have received reparations from the United States government, uh, many of us also see it as our obligation and duty to stand in solidarity with black reparations.  Mike Ishii: if I could just add on to that, you know. There’s an intersectional history in the United States of forced removals, you know, on the enslavement blocks enforcing people on forced death marches from their home lands to reservations. In the prison system of the us The largest prison system in the world. It’s forced removal, it’s separation of families, it’s mass incarceration it’s surveillance and it’s murder. And the Japanese American chapter of that history is actually a very similar story that just as, as Rob said, just keeps being repeated over and over again, but it’s created in new iterations. So, just to give you a small example related to the Japanese American story. Dylan Meyer, who ran the war relocation authority, he was responsible [00:12:00] for the 10 largest, the most well known of the Japanese American concentration camps. There were actually over 75, sites of detention for Japanese Americans during World War ii. Most people don’t realize that. what we were put into that system during World War II was based on the reservation model, um, of how they remove indigenous people from their homelands and then force them onto reservation lands. That model was exported. By the Nazis to build their concentration camps. So like people think, oh, Nazi Germany invented that. No, it was, that model was invented in the United States. It was then exported to Nazi Germany. It was then tailored further on Japanese American communities. And then with the forced assimilation, we were, our people were not allowed to go back to their homes initially. Dylan Meyer wrote about it in his biography. He considered the force assimilation one of his greatest accomplishments. So what he was doing was he was dispersing us and destroying us in one generation of force removal. We lost our homes, we lost our farms. We lost the nijo Mai, the Japan towns. We [00:13:00] lost our language. We lost our culture, and perhaps most importantly. We lost each other because they pitted our community against each other with a series of very divisive questionnaires that really turned people on each other, More than 84 years since the opening of the camp. We’re still trying to repair the fractures of that. They’re not healed yet. And so that’s what Rob, when Rob refers to multi-generational trauma, we’re a fractured community. Still trying to repair the implosion that was. Really dropped on us by the United States government, this is what they do repeatedly to community after community. So with the force assimilation after World War ii, they saw how that worked. Then they, they took that back and they weaponized it against, um, indigenous communities and saying, we’re gonna move people off the reservations. We’re gonna resettle them in cities Further isolating people away from their home communities, taking away their languages, taking them and breaking their connections to family and community. Right? Setting people up for failure in a city away from their [00:14:00] people. in poverty., And what we’re witnessing right now is a culmination of hundreds of years in this of white supremacy, weaponized against our communities. More openly, more brazenly than ever before, with the full power of the United States government behind it. Miata Tan: That was Mike Ishii, Executive Director at Tsuru for Solidarity. As Mike described mass surveillance programs, the World War II, incarceration of Japanese Americans and post-war pressures to assimilate left lasting impacts on this community. In the present, Tsuru for Solidarity connects the Japanese American history to ongoing immigration detention in the United States. Here’s Mike describing some of Tsuru’s past and ongoing campaigns focused on closing specific detention sites, what they call site fights.  Mike Ishii: Dilley and Karnes, which are the original two sites and the largest sites in Texas, which are now in the news again, [00:15:00] because they’re being reused again by the Trump administration very openly. But under Biden, we had forced ’em to close those basically functionally for families. They were using them in other ways. Which is not good. but we had forced them to stop detaining families officially. we had stopped the expansion of these large congregate sites for unaccompanied migrant children. Uh, we stopped them from opening a large one in Greensboro, North Carolina. They wanted to open what they called the Piedmont Academy. Site of the former National Jewish School that school closed. And so they had leased the property and they were gonna. Open their largest detention site for unaccompanied migrant children and call it an academy. we slowed it down and forced them to reconsider it long enough to where it became an unworkable, policy for them. And they abandoned it. We stopped them from expanding Fort Bliss. In El Paso, which is a military base that was also used as a Japanese American incarceration site [00:16:00] during World War ii. it’s currently being used again. It’s being called Camp East Montana, by the Trump 2.0 administration. And when they were incarcerating children there during the first Trump administration, children were literally forgotten. Their cases were forgotten, and there were children languIshiing in there for like. Up to a year at a time, and nobody knew they were there because no one cared. There were allegations of sexual abuse, uh, rotten food, children who never were allowed outside. Children covered in lice, children taking care of younger children because nobody took care of them, lack of medical care. And so if that’s shocking for what was happening under the first Trump administration, it’s. Also happening now. And, and there is even less oversight or accountability now than there was, during the first Trump administration because as broken as that system was, then it had more accountability because there were [00:17:00] advocates and legal representatives for children, which is almost non-existent now. They’ve done away with the funding for that. We have three year olds representing themselves in immigration courts now because they did away with the congressional funding to support that. That’s sort of the, the constellation of. Of the work that we emerged into when we came into formation, um, under the first Trump administration. And, it, it has just continued to evolve. We’ve been involved in, I think it’s eight site fights now. And as difficult as this moment is right now, I always wanna tell people, and frame it this way, when you fight back, you win. We closed the Berks Family Detention Center permanently. We stopped the Piedmont Academy from opening in Greensboro. Tsuru’s first major action was to go to Fort Sill in Oklahoma in 2019. Um, we led two protests there. The first one went [00:18:00] sort of viral on democracy now in cause they accompanied us. They embedded themselves with us. This is the first thing we ever did in a large scale and had no idea what we were doing at that point. We just were just angry and we, and full of, passion and said we have to go there and stop them from opening. A new concentration camp for 1600 children. And so we did that. Um, as a result, United we dream joined us along with AIM Indian Territory, with Black Lives Matter, Oklahoma City. Um, with Dream Action now Oklahoma with Veterans for Peace and with many of the local tribes. We came back a month later and staged a massive, massive demonstration shut down the highway into the fort. We brought 25 Buddhist priests and nuns with us. Who chanted the heart suture at the gate, um, while DACA young people took the highway and shut it down. After that action, the governor and the two senators from Oklahoma made an announcement the next day and they said, we’ve decided not to open this site here because we [00:19:00] said if you move ahead with. This is just the beginning. You think this is bad. We are gonna bring thousands of people here and we will make sure this site never opens. we proved through solidarity and community organizing in that moment that when you organize in solidarity against state violence, you win. You know, it’s a bad moment. Right now they’re proposing what, 23, 25 new warehouse detention sites, but actually. At least three or four of them have been curtailed already because community came together and said, not in my neighborhood, not in my town, not in my city. We will oppose you. And we’re getting very smart about how we work together. I think Chicago and Minneapolis, LA have really lifted up the idea that change and transformation comes from the ground up. when we wait for our. Governments to change policy for the better of people and humanity. It doesn’t happen. It’s [00:20:00] when it’s when the grassroots decide. We band together. We protect ourselves, we care for ourselves. We organize, we stand in solidarity against state violence. Then we can move things and we can stop things. Miata Tan: That was Mike Ishii, Executive Director at Tsuru for Solidarity. As Mike described, Tsuru organizes creative nonviolent actions to challenge immigration detention and bring people into collective resistance. Stay tuned to learn more about this movement and they’re opposing inhumane practices against immigrant communities. Miata Tan: [00:21:00] [00:22:00] That was Forevermore by Yuna. You are tuned into APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host, Miata Tan. Tonight we’re centering the work of Tsuru for Solidarity, a nationwide organization with a mission to close all US detention sites and bring an end to inhumane immigration policies. Sophie Sarkar is the Bay Area organizer with Tsuru for Solidarity. Here’s Sophie speaking about their approach using non-cooperation as a guiding strategy. Sophie Sarkar: Non-cooperation is the idea that. I guess there’s this larger model for [00:23:00] authoritarianism. And that an authoritarian regime is actually a lot more fragile than we think because it is upheld by many different pillars of society. So for example. The authoritarian regime cannot function unless it has a military force that is supporting it, unless it has a media that’s supporting it unless it has elected officials corporations, police forces. And so when we think about strategy, we’re really thinking about these specific pillars. Um, instead of just like, how can we take down this, uh, authoritarian regime? We think about like, okay let’s choose a pillar and let’s unpack all the different layers within that pillar. So, for example, if we choose the pillar of corporations, you know, there are many different corporations that we know are supporting, working in concert and supporting ICE and the Department of Homeland Security, like enterprise, like [00:24:00] Hilton, target, home Depot. And within each of those. , Well, there are the consumers, and then there are the workers, the managers, and then the CEOs. So we try to create strategies that kind of work from at a grassroots level. So starting with the outer layer of like the consumers through boycotts to workers, labor strikes and so forth. When we’re talking about non-cooperation, we’re really talking about strategies that help us support people to, to dissent and to stop actually working with the regime. we learned a lot from Minneapolis where folks were calling up enterprise, um, and booking booking cars so that ICE couldn’t. rent them and then just canceling last minute. Miata Tan: That was Sophie Sarkar Bay Area organizer at Tsuru for Solidarity. As Sophie described, Tsuru uses a framework of [00:25:00] non-cooperation to guide its organizing work. Their campaigns include a range of non-violent actions, letter writing, public demonstrations, and continued pressure efforts. Now returning to my conversation with Rob Buscher, Tsuru’s, Director of Operations. I wanted to know how Tsuru is organizing together, how they are thinking about this strategy nationwide.  Rob Buscher: We are all remote workers, so Mike and Becca, our Director of organizing, is based in New York City. Uh, and they frequently travel, uh, every other week traveling across the country to the campaign hubs that are mainly located in the West Coast, where we have a larger Japanese American community. Seattle, Portland, San Francisco Bay Area. Those are kind of our big hubs, and that’s where the bulk of Tsuru’s volunteer members are located. So much of this work is campaign driven, it’s really work that is ideated together [00:26:00] as, as a committee consensus based decision making that takes place both from campaign level, but also regional leaders within each one of those hubs. looking at child and family detention, looking at police prisons and detention as our two detention campaigns. Healing Justice as Mike was talking about, including Resiliency and arts as well as the core healing circles Practice that has been a, a part of our practice since the beginning. And also the solidarity with black reparations campaign. So between each of those four campaigns, we have co-chairs that lead that work. Um, they form our leadership council, which is essentially the, the board of sudu. And together with our six staff, we work very closely with the leadership council to create a plan for the organization at a larger national level. But the day-to-day operations is largely being done by our volunteer members in each one of those locations. We have busy seasons, of course. the Day of Remembrance on February 19th is a, a major focal point for a lot of [00:27:00] our historic remembrance around the anniversary of Franklin Roosevelt signing Executive order 9 0 6 6, which laid the legislative groundwork for the forced removal of our communities from the west coast and that. Has become, not just within Tsuru, but within the Japanese American community. A launch point for revisiting this history from the lens of today and trying to understand what is the role of the survivors and descendants of the Japanese American community as we see parallels to what occurred, happening to families. And individuals around the country in real time. A member of my own family was arrested under the Alien Enemies Act in 1942, and we’re seeing the same kind of legislation being used against Venezuelans and other folks from Latin America. you know, when we kind of think about the role that we play today. As staff, we hold a lot of the this work from like a planning standpoint, but the actual boots on the grounds are the volunteer members of the organization. Miata Tan: That was Rob Buscher, the Director of operations at Tsuru for [00:28:00] Solidarity. Now let’s return to Sophie Sarkar, the Bay Area organizer for this nationwide movement. Here Sophie reflects on Tsuru’s volunteer network and the anti deportation campaigns they help to coordinate across the Bay Area. Sophie Sarkar: So our volunteers are largely Japanese American, world War ii, prison camp survivors and descendants as well as allies. And It’s an amazing volunteer base to work with because it is so intergenerational. So for example, we had a strategy retreat for our leaders and our youngest participant was 21 and our oldest participant was 95. And. All the ages in between as well. that’s one of the reasons I love working with this group so much because I think it’s pretty rare to be in such intergenerational spaces organizing together. Yeah. And, uh, we have volunteers all across the Bay [00:29:00] Area. We have folks that. Our artists that have law degrees that, have an organizing background that have never organized before in their lives. Um, we really try to make ourselves accessible to anyone who’s interested in participating. So even if um, someone is just really starting to understand the realities of the systemic violence, against immigrants in this country we, we make space for that and we really try to, offer a lot of political education to folks so. Yeah, at any level they can engage. Yeah, and we have faith leaders. We have folks who have experience with labor unions. So it is a pretty wide variety. But yeah, most of us come together with this shared historical experience of, some people themselves or their families being incarcerated during World War II i, myself am a descendant of, [00:30:00] folks who are incarcerated at Manzanar and Tulle Lake. My family were also so folks who were coerced into renunciation and quote self deportation unquote after the war. I feel so many different various connections to my own family’s experiences and what’s happening today. And so it just feels like a really deep yeah, just a, a deep opportunity to get to, I. Ground in my, my ancestral historical experience as, as an organizer for Tsuru. I think for many of us by really being able to show up in solidarity with groups that are facing State violence it looks different today in some ways. But it’s kind of the same playbook as we might say of how the government treated our family members. And it’s really an opportunity for us to. really address the [00:31:00] impacts of what happened to our families on us, across generations to address our trauma, to face it to heal from it. Miata Tan: Definitely. Could you share a little bit about what your day-to-day looks like as a organizer?  Sophie Sarkar: My role is really to work with our volunteer leaders and to support them in, , building out campaigns here in the Bay Area. So in the Bay Area we have, we are part of the ICE out of Dublin coalition and we have our own Tsuru campaign around preventing the reopening of FCI Dublin as an ice detention facility. there is currently no ice detention facility in Northern California, so that would have a huge impact on the entire Bay Area and Northern California in general. So we spend a lot of time on that, working on that campaign. we also have part in Refugees campaign where we have supported individuals at risk of [00:32:00] deportation, um, with kind of mutual aid and wraparound care. And we also have a Palestine working group that is Supporting the J eight community in the Bay Area to organize folks around the genocide and Palestine, and now the war in Lebanon and Iran. And so we will be participating, for example, in a interfaith march, and pilgrimage in May as part of that we have a child and family detention campaign that’s more national. we organize monthly general meetings so that folks have a place to land with us. And at those general meetings we, give campaign updates, but we also, really try to do something engaging and like take an action together. So, at the last couple, um, general meetings, we folded paper dolls as part of a Paper Dolls campaign to raise awareness about child and family detention and the [00:33:00] 6,000 families that are currently detained by ICE. Miata Tan: That was Sophie Sarkar the Bay Area organizer at Tsuru for Solidarity. As you heard, children and families detained by US Immigration and Customs Enforcement are central to their campaign work. One example is the Paper Dolls to Free families Campaign that Sophie mentioned. Tsuru for Solidarity is leading this effort alongside partners in the National Coalition to End Family and Child Detention. The campaign invites people across the country to create paper dolls with little messages of solidarity, which the coalition will deliver to members of Congress. He is Tsuru’s Executive Director Mike Ishii, reflecting on the thinking behind this work. Mike Ishii: We have to recognize that great violence has taken place between people and between our groups. But the only way we’re going to reconcile this and actually transform it is if we try to repair it in a [00:34:00] transformative way. You know, part of the work that we’re doing right now, in the National Coalition to End Family and Child Detention is a campaign that we call free families. And here’s what it does, it recognizes that we are trying to free the families who are inside detention. Uh, you know, Liam Ramos, right? The five-year-old with the bunny backpack who was put in Dilley. He’s the face of 3,800 children detained in the last year by the Trump administration. It’s probably much higher than that because they don’t actually report truthfully, the statistics  That really moved people when they saw Liam’s face. But what we’re trying to do is have it, his story, be connected to a greater story about families and children, because what we know in our own research. And when we look at the voting patterns and why people voted for the Trump administration in the last election, what we see is really angry. People who feel left behind um, well, the system has left behind people. [00:35:00] Healthcare. Food stamps prenatal care, Medicare education, you name it. Housing, all of the things that affect working people who are struggling more and more as prices go up in this country. As the future starts to narrow and people don’t see an open feature for themselves but this 1% is getting more and more enriched by the policies. And the violence that they’re enacting on communities. And so the Free Families Campaign is really a campaign not just for immigrant to free immigrant families and children. It’s really to recenter the the importance and the sAACREdness of families and to organize families across the country for their common purpose, their common good. I was a part of a study and, advisory council that did research about how do we change the narrative on child and family detention nationally. What we found is that the majority of the country holds a value of the sAACREd. Importance of protecting children and the [00:36:00] sanctity of the family. And when we organize and get people into conversation about that, about their own families and about their own children and what it’s like to try to survive in this time, what we realize is that there’s this great common denominator of parents actually who are struggling in a system that’s leaving people behind everywhere, We think that’s where the future of movement and solidarity work needs to go. It’s about kitchen table issues. It’s about opening a future for the next generation. if you look at the, research and sort of the feedback that you hear from younger generations about their future, it’s really bleak. What they say, what they’re sharing is that they feel betrayed by the adults. Who are leaving them a world full of climate crisis and war and lack of opportunity, lack of rights. And so the organizing work that we’re involved in right now, you say, oh, it’s immigrant rights work, it’s anti detention work. It’s actually about revising the [00:37:00] future for really our whole society. As things fall and burn, it’s the old order. It’s so based in your rationality that it’s collapsing and on some level you can’t stop it from falling. And so our work in this moment is to get people out of the way. And save as many people as this system collapses. And then to vision the new system that actually is the beloved community that does provide equity, for all people that has been denied to so many of our communities. And what’s important in that work, along with the organizing and the intervention work against state violence, is the work around repair and healing. We’re part of, a national cohort that’s been, um, sort of think tanking and doing work and sharing, across our organizations, our methods and trying to help develop new templates, new forms of how to take healing and repair, especially around multi-generational trauma. And to share it broadly so that people are resourced and have more [00:38:00] access to the skillset and the tools for healing multi-generational trauma as part of regular everyday organizing in communities across the country. Miata Tan: That was Mike Ishii, Executive Director at Tsuru for Solidarity. Miata Tan: The namesake of Tsuru for Solidarity is deeply symbolic, Tsuru meaning crane in Japanese is described as a creature of transformation. A symbol of healing and repair, not only for the Japanese American community, but all communities. You are tuned into APEX Express, a weekly radio show, uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. You’ll hear more from the Tsuru for Solidarity team after this, stay with us. Miata Tan: [00:39:00] [00:40:00] [00:41:00] That [00:42:00] was Nobody by the one and only Mitski You are tuned into APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host, Miata Tan. Tonight we are talking about deportation and the communities fighting back. Tsuru for Solidarity, they’re a nationwide organization working to close all US detention sites and end inhumane immigration policies We’re diving into the Japanese American legacy behind Soda’s work and what’s driving their fight against deportation. Here’s their Executive Director, Mike Ishii. Mike Ishii: We actually have what. Probably more than 12 or 13,000 people at this point who are connected to us in our network. But then on the ground, boots in action, we have hundreds of people who are active and when we call on people like, we need you to come to this major action, we can get [00:43:00] thousands of people to turn out. So this has been a really beautiful evolution of community organizing. We often say. We want to be the allies that our people needed during World War II when they were removed and disappeared from the community. And so that’s really our intention that guides us here. in doing so, our work is rooted in relationship building. That’s really what that means. Like my mom didn’t know that anyone cared about her as a 10-year-old. No one came to the fences of Minidoka. Um, nobody marched in the streets and protested. There were very few people who were fighting for her freedom. And so she didn’t know, she didn’t have a relationship. So our work is in building relationships within our own community. To Decolonize from white assimilationist forced assimilation policies that are multi-generational, that have positioned us to be inculcated and manipulated as part of a model minority dynamic. We are the group that was used as the poster [00:44:00] child by Ronald Reagan when you rolled out that term. Unwinding that dynamic that has a stranglehold on our community. Because this is a community that was terrified for its survival, and it was grasping for straws of survival and being wildly manipulated by the society in the aftermath of the war. We get to do that work. it’s exciting for, for us to get to do that work. And actually, Rob, that’s part of his job is to lean into that organizing that we’re going to be launching in a fuller manner now that we’re here at AACRE. We also get to really build more on what it means to be in solidarity practice. And that’s the work I often to get to do with our external partners, what I call our cousins and our siblings in the movement space. And to me, it’s some of the most fulfilling work I’ve ever gotten to do in my life because it breaks your internal isolation that comes from your historical trauma. if you. Have ever woken feeling, how do we go forward? How do we stop this? How do I ever not feel like we’re fighting alone? Do this [00:45:00] work because you get daily evidence actually that you’re not alone. That we can win when we fight back, and that there are people who care deeply and I get to do that work. I’m very fortunate. As part of the organization our, you know, Becca, who is our Director of organizing, is an incredible strategist and gets to think tactically with our many incredible, incredible volunteers on the ground across the country. I’m fortunate that I know some of them because I was very involved in that work early on. And all I can say is that as a result of having had a chance to be at the frontline in that kind of, deep work with our folks is that I love my people. Oh my God, I love my people. Like I’m just, so moved by the stories of people and their families and survival, and then also their courage to understand that we’re a group that achieved a certain amount of privilege in the years since forced assimilation and. The [00:46:00] willingness to understand that’s not really something you hold onto, that you actually want to let go of that for your own benefit, and also because it’s the right thing to do in the movement toward equity. And so to get to be a part of that movement with my people. Is really a central part of our healing and to get to be a part of that in this organization at this moment, in this moment when we need to step up in, in ways that are so deeply important for the future of really the globe. Whether or not we’ll go into an abyss of darkness or we’re gonna transform this incredible escalated violence right now, I think we’re born for this moment. I really don’t think it’s an accident. And if we. Each have that choice and opportunity to step into this moment and play a role there. How lucky are we to get to be born right now? So that’s a little bit about how I see our role as an organization as we come into [00:47:00] AACRE and as we continue to evolve in this space.  Miata Tan : That’s really beautiful. And, and thank you for tying us back into AACRE, which is the Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality, a network of progressive Asian American organizations uh, soon be joining. Rob, could you share what you are excited for now that Tsuru will be joining Aker and, the future work that is coming up.  Rob Buscher: Thanks for that question. You know, I think there’s so many incredible organizations that are already under AACREs fiscal sponsorship, so just even in some of the preliminary meetings that we’ve had with other AACRE group leadership and being in conversation with people that. Oftentimes we’ve already known for, for many years. You know, I, Eddie Zang, um, and, and others who are, are involved peripherally, as funders are people that I’ve known since the film festival days. I recently learned. Kaen, who’s part of the HR staff at AACRE, a filmmaker that I worked with well over a decade [00:48:00] ago on a Muslim Youth Voices Project here in Philadelphia is also part of the team. You know, just having these little connection points has been pointing us towards the direction that we’re meant to be here. This feels like the right moment for Tsuru to be joining Aker. Uh, It feels like there’s a lot of, , capacity and bandwidth that we haven’t had under our current circumstances. But, um, really with the energy and enthusiasm of all of these groups coming together, I, I feel like we can really make an even bigger impact than we are in these programs. Um, as far as, you know, future. Ideas and, and programs that we have coming up on the horizon. we’re very excited about the Kintsugi Healing Conference. Uh, as Mike has spoken about the role of healing within our work. Obviously there’s a need for repairing the divides that exist within our own Japanese American community and before we can truly be in, in solidarity and, and do collective liberation work. Being able to heal those divides within our own community needs to take [00:49:00] precedent. So Kintsugi is a way of acknowledging that through this healing, resilience based conference allowing us to turn inwards and really think about the long-term effects of intergenerational trauma, how it’s shaped all of our families and individual pathways, and how we can ultimately come together to heal those divides. Um, while also learning more about and training up some of our people around these ideas of collective liberation. it’s gonna be taking place in San Francisco’s Japan town and we’re very excited about that. We’ll announce the dates very shortly for October, 2026. Some of the other things that we’re working on, as I mentioned earlier, we have our black reparations campaign. Tsuru has been doing this sort of work really in many ways since the beginning, but formalized during the, the summer of 2020 in the aftermath of the George Floyd Uprisings, the Black Reparations Campaign as one of the major work areas, with a number of other Japanese American organizations like New UK Progressives and the Japanese American Citizens League, San Jose Resistors. as part of [00:50:00] this national coalition to, uh, achieve redress and reparations for in solidarity with the descendants of chattel slavery. Our campaign actually had the opportunity to travel to Washington DC last May to participate in National Reparation Networks national Reparations Rally that was attended by over a hundred different, organizations that are working on this issue.  Currently. We’re in the process of launching a new project called the 4 0 7 Conversations, or a 4 0 7 project. It’s acknowledging that 2026 is 407 years since the beginning of chattel slavery in North America in 1619, and the goal is to have at least 407 conversations about reparations in this calendar year. So it’s a way to sort of normalize the topic of reparations within not just Japanese American. community spaces, but sort of in the broader conversation about what does it mean to do reparative justice work. As we look towards the future, we’re gonna be doing more [00:51:00] narrative campaign work too. We had the opportunity during the day of Remembrance to launch a, nationwide campaign that reimagined the instructions to all persons of Japanese ancestry poster that was placed in our Japan towns. That signaled the beginning of the so-called evacuation, the forced removal of our communities in our new instructions to persons of Japanese ancestry. It was an opportunity to call people in and to, uh, mobilize and activate our community in defense of the frontline communities that are facing the brunt of state violence today. So as we continue to strengthen and build We’re hoping to do even more of these large scale national mobilizations. And I’m just excited that we’re gonna be able to do this work together, uh, under AACREs banner. Miata Tan: That was Rob Buscher, Director of Operations at Tsuru for Solidarity. As Rob shared from aiding the movement toward black reparations to anti-ice mobilizations. The team at [00:52:00] Tsuru is gearing up for some important campaigns this year To close out, let’s return to Sophie aka their Bay Area organizer. I ask Sophie what work she’s most looking forward to in 2026. Sophie Sarkar: I am very excited about our, well, yeah, I’m very excited about a lot of things. I think I’m just excited about the ways in which am able to see as an organizer for Tsuru, just like Japanese American community really coming out and mobilizing and working together in coalition. I think, in this time, as we are all trying to figure out ways to dismantle this authoritarian regime and to resist it’s really important for us That like we are moving beyond the kind of hierarchical structure that the regime uses and figuring out how to work in coalition and to really find our lane, find what our role is [00:53:00] as an organization, as individuals. And for me it’s really exciting to see that the Japanese American community Is doing that is like really trying to work more and more in coalition and I’m excited to continue to support that. for example, we will be leading a non-cooperation training. With other JA organizations in a few months. to, yeah, really support us as a community to understand what non-cooperation looks like and how we can practice that in our various campaigns. And yeah, I see like the japantown organizations we’re part of a, Nihon Machi Coalition there. Getting really serious about preparing for and when ICE comes and doing the workup. Upfront now to really train in knowing your rights and non-cooperation and security, just to get prepared as a collective. This year we’re also, Tsuru is also organizing our healing justice [00:54:00] conference in the Bay Area called Kintsugi, that will take place in the fall. As part of that we hope to have a day of direct action. So I’m really excited to have the opportunity to kind of bring together our healing justice work, our healing arts work, and our direct action just integrating the three of those. And hopefully planning a really beautiful and healing and powerful action for us all to take together. Miata Tan: That’s really lovely. you’ve mentioned Healing Justice a few times in your own personal background and experience with Tsuru, but also these fantastic campaigns that we are looking forward to. Could you speak a little bit about how the Japanese American community and the wider Tsuru for Solidarity Network is taking care of each other during this moment? Sophie Sarkar: Yeah, such a good question. I feel like that’s something that I just notice our community is so good at [00:55:00] doing. Like, I think, you know, we really try to approach organizing from a relational perspective. So. Folks in little ways, like checking in on each other, making each other lunch. I know I had like afternoon at one of our volunteers houses the other day, just like eating lunch together and venting. But you know, it’s just the little ways or like folding origami, yeah, I think on that kind of level, relational level of just checking in and remembering that we are human and really need that kind of connection with each other in these times, especially when it can feel really scary and isolating. Zoomed out a little bit more, you know, like our general meetings and our trainings and those kinds of larger gathering opportunities are just a really nice way. Also, we always have a potluck dinner and feed each other. Like, it’s just a really nice way to Offer that kind of care and nourishment to one [00:56:00] another and connect as well. Miata Tan: Love that. It’s Always great to gather over food.  Sophie Sarkar: always. Miata Tan: That was Sophie Sarkar the Bay Area organizer at Tsuru for Solidarity, reflecting on her communities and how they’re taking care of each other during this time. This is APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, A weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. APEX Express is every Thursday evening at 7:00 PM and with that, we’re at the end of our time here. We really appreciate you tuning in tonight and a special thanks for Tsuru for Solidarity for sharing their time and work with us. For a transcript of today’s episode, please visit our website. That’s kpfa.org/program/APEX Express. [00:57:00] We’ve also added links to Tsuru for Solidarity’s website, their social media channels, and where you can go to learn more about their ongoing campaigns. Be sure to check that out. APEX Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me, Miata Tan. Get some rest, y’all.   The post APEX Express – 4.16.26 – Rethinking Immigration Detention appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 4.9.26 – Library Joy 09.04.2026 59мин

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight on APEX Express, join the Powerleegirls Host Miko Lee speaks with children’s book authors Lorraine Nam, Uma Krishnaswami and Maggie Tokuda-Hall about Library Joy in honor of National School Library Month! To Learn More Lorrraine Nam, illustrator and  author Michael Threet’s book: I’m So Happy You’re Here: A Celebration of Library Joy    Uma Krishnaswami Her books: Book Uncle Triology   Maggie Tokuda-Hall Her book: Love in the Library  Every Library Authors Against Book Bans   Show Transcript [00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.   [00:00:35] Ayame Keane-Lee: Welcome to tonight’s episode of Apex Express Celebrating Library Joy. I’m Ayame Keane-Lee the editor of tonight’s show, and part of the PowerLeeGirls bringing you the introduction to tonight’s show. Did you know that April is National School Library Month and in just 10 days from April 19th to 25th is National Library Week? The theme for this year’s National Library Week is Find Your Joy with Honorary Chair Mychal Threets. The first of three interviews you’ll hear my mom, Miko Lee have tonight is with Lorraine Nam the illustrator for the newly released children’s book written by that very Mychal Threets called, “I’m So Happy You’re Here”. You will then hear Miko speak with Uma Krishnaswami about her children’s book “Book Uncle and Me,” and lastly with Maggie Tokuda-Hall about her children’s book, “Love in the Library,” and the important work of Authors Against Book Bans. As a library kid and current library worker, I have experienced firsthand the transformative power of library access and the importance of inclusive and diverse storytelling. In and out of schools, libraries are vital to nurturing and uplifting the autonomy and sovereignty of children, which always has and continues to be a liberatory practice. We hope tonight’s show will inspire you right into your local library to check out some of the great books mentioned here or to put them on hold. Let’s listen in.    [00:02:06] Miko Lee: Welcome, Lorraine Nam, illustrator of amazing  children’s books. Welcome to Apex Express.    [00:02:13] Lorraine Nam: I’m excited to be here.    [00:02:16] Miko Lee: I wanna start with a question I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?    [00:02:24] Lorraine Nam: Who are my people? I would say creative people. People who are interested in having an open mind, and looking at the bright side of things, the beautiful things, people who are curious. The type of legacy that I bring I think is just my parents who are creative and then bringing that, to this new generation.    [00:02:57] Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing. I am, I’m looking at your beautiful face, and behind you is this, find your joy and, and it’s in lots of colors on this pink banner and in at the top we see opening up of a library door with Mychal Threets, who’s the author of this book, “I’m So Happy You’re Here: A Celebration of Library Joy.” I’m wondering if you can talk about your collaborative process with Mychal Threets.    [00:03:25] Lorraine Nam: The first impression that you have of writer and illustrator for a picture book is that they work really closely together, and that’s actually not the case. We work pretty separately, but I was very excited. Mychal wrote the words to this book and they were looking for an illustrator and my agent called me and she asked me if I was interested. I was very excited about the project. I signed up for it and we worked pretty separately. We connected on Instagram, but he pretty much had no art notes, everything was pretty much whatever I was open to. Then we met for the first time and we got our very first copy of the book and we met in New York.    [00:04:10] Miko Lee: And what was that like?    [00:04:12] Lorraine Nam: Um, amazing. He is exactly who he is in his videos.    [00:04:18] Miko Lee: Can you share for our audience who he is and a little bit more about him, just in case folks don’t know.   [00:04:24] Lorraine Nam: The book calls him a librarian ambassador. He describes himself as a reader, a lover of librarians or the number one fan of libraries. This is his first book and he’s also the host of Reading Rainbow on PBS. We met at the New York Library, public Library for the first time, and he’s just so nice, very kind. Honestly, it felt like we already knew each other just because we had been talking through the publisher about the book.   [00:05:02] Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing. It’s so beautifully illustrated and you have a incredibly diverse,, amount of people in the book, both racially but also physically, and I really appreciate how you encapsulated that. I’m just wondering what inspired you to develop this specific imagery for this book?    [00:05:22] Lorraine Nam: Yeah, so one of the only stipulations in the art notes was that he wanted to have a diverse group of people attending the library. People of all ages of all color, all sizes, all disabilities. That seemed like a no brainer to me because I just know the message that he puts into the world. The only difficult part was narrowing down the cast. There’s all these different types of people and just trying to figure out who to focus on. I wanted to make sure that you still see the same group of kids over and over. So it felt like you were following the along throughout the day, while still having lots of diversity and lots of different types of people.    [00:06:11] Miko Lee: Had you set what the cover was gonna be at the beginning or did that come after you had already finished the whole book?   [00:06:19] Lorraine Nam: Oh, that came much later. We pretty much had the art for the interior nailed down, and then we were working on concepts for the cover. I knew from Mychal’s social media presence that maybe he didn’t want to be the poster cover of the book. He wanted to be about the library goers and the people rather than himself. And so I was kind of towing that line of like obviously people wanna see him, it’s his first book. They’re such huge fans, and so like how much to put Mychal in and how much to showcase him, as well as showcase like all the other people who go to the library.   [00:07:02] Miko Lee: He definitely does have a joyous kind of ebullient vibe to him. I recommend for audience to check out his socials because he has this, you wanna listen to him. He’s so inviting and I love the poster behind you because he is saying, like, “welcome, come into the library. This is my world.” And you also made him look so cute. Really looks like a cartoon version of him. So sweet. In your artistic process, I’m wondering what helps you define the style of art you utilize? I’m thinking about the paper cutouts that you did for a tale of two princes. What is it about the work that inspires you to select that type of style?   [00:07:43] Lorraine Nam: I actually had a very winding path to the style that I have today. So the style that I have today is very much layered. It’s painted, a lot of it is painted. And then I cut it out and then I glue and collage different elements, and then I scan everything in and enhance certain aspects through Photoshop. But a lot of it started actually in wanting to make a physical book. So it was with book binding and then with book binding, because that’s just a technique to produce a product, it was what goes in those pages and that’s when I started doing cut paper. So just silhouetted, cut paper. And I was doing that for a long time, just cutting out rice paper to make silhouettes. I wanted to tell more of the story and depict people. So then I started making paper cut [laughs] sets. So I would build —almost like Legos— a whole set of paper buildings and paper people and paper objects that are three dimensional. And then I would photograph them. And then from there, I landed in this more 2D, but playing with still technique and texture and layers.    [00:09:10] Miko Lee: Wow, that’s so interesting. Can you share a little bit more about your artistic process? Do you start at a certain time of day? Do you only work at night? Do you have a whole studio set up?   [00:09:20] Lorraine Nam: well, For the book projects because there’s such a timeline to ’em and they’re very specific. I’ll do very loose sketches on Post-it notes. They’re readily available and then you can stick two of them next to each other to make a full spread. I use these post-its, and then I would just fold them in half and use that as like very quick pencil drawings. And then if I had something that I liked, I would just go in and pen. But they were still very small. So it was more about looking at silhouettes and composition. And then I would print, it’s a very old school technique, but I would print out all the text for the book and cut ’em out. And double sided tape and just stick them on to see where the text should be on the page and where it could fit. I would just do that manually until I had something that I liked a little bit more. Then I would start creating digital, like line drawings.    [00:10:21] Miko Lee: And are you lining this all up on a wall or putting it on the desk?   [00:10:26] Lorraine Nam: Um, so they’re in like a notebook.    [00:10:29] Miko Lee: Oh, you put ’em in book format?    [00:10:31] Lorraine Nam: It’s all the spread. So it should take about two pages basically. You should be able to look at it and look at it from like an eagle eye perspective of what the entire book will look like and what the flow will be like, and if there’s closeups or this is like a far away saying, you get more of the like, setting of the library.   [00:10:52] Miko Lee: And with the font printed out really small so that it’s on the bottom of that Post-it note.    [00:10:56] Lorraine Nam: Mm-hmm.    [00:10:57] Miko Lee: Wow, that is so fascinating. And what is it when you’re eagle eye-ing, what are you looking for?    [00:11:04] Lorraine Nam: I’m pretending that I’m a kid looking at a book for the first time, with zero context and maybe zero reading level skill and just looking at the pictures and seeing if I can spot the same character and if there is a story that follows along, because this is a library book where it doesn’t talk about specific people. I wanted to be able to follow each character in the book and see what their day was like in the library. So when they first came into the library, what they were doing during the day, what friends they made, and then maybe them leaving or, you know, a resolution of some kind, like their parents are checking out symbols at the library.    [00:11:52] Miko Lee: the concept of having the character go throughout the book. Was that in the instruction or was something that you created.   [00:11:59] Lorraine Nam: That was something that I wanted. Because I know looking at picture books, the pictures can also tell a story where, the words, it might not be in the words. So I wanted there to be more of a layered storytelling through image.    [00:12:18] Miko Lee: I appreciate that as a mom. I remember when my girls were little, they would always say, where is that rabbit on the page? Or where is that thing? And so being able to track a character all the way through, is quite delightful. It adds another dimension for the multiple readings. You mentioned before about how you didn’t really meet Mychal, the author of the book until the very end, and I guess that’s common as an illustrator and you’ve worked with so many different experts in their fields from, physicist Neil Degrasse Tyson to Skater Nathan Chen. How is their very different fields, how does that impact your art making?    [00:12:57] Lorraine Nam: It’s actually the most fun. It’s what drew me to illustration in the first place. I love being able to do like a deep dive and a specific subject that I wouldn’t necessarily have gravitated towards and do that research. I actually do go to the library. I start the process at the library and I look at all the books about that particular topic, and then see what other people have done. And so working on the book for Neil deGrasse Tyson, it was so much fun looking at different how space is depicted the idea of galaxies and making that tangible and real for kids. And then for Nathan Chen, I was already a fan before I got the project, so it was very easy. But watching the videos, seeing all the different techniques and for his book it was more looking at sports books. Because he’s such a unique person in his specific field in figure skating that there weren’t very many books on figure skating and most are of a female portrayal. I was looking more at sports and how people show different types of movement, , and show like form. And the more technical aspects that are very, very, very specific and very critical to those things.    [00:14:32] Miko Lee: And how did that manifest into your book?    [00:14:35] Lorraine Nam: Um, a lot of drawings of like, the breakdown of his jumps and trying to figure out can a child do this jump [laughs]? And also doing a lot of research ’cause he’s a very private person. His book is not about him, it’s not a biography, but it’s also loosely based off of him. You know, I have two other siblings. If I had a book based off of me, I want my siblings to be involved and represented in that as well. So I included his family, even though they’re not a huge part of the book, his siblings are not like big characters. But they’re still represented in there. So he can still be like, oh that’s my family. This is based off of my story.   [00:15:32] Miko Lee: So when you’re doing these approaches, like including Nathan’s family or in the library book, making sure characters go all the way through, is that something you have to check in with the writer about, to see if they’re okay? Or is that something that you just do and then you submit and you see if they like it?   [00:15:50] Lorraine Nam: That’s something that I do, that I find joy in and see. Usually the first eyes on my sketches are the publisher and the art director. And I actually have no idea what, at what stage they really share the sketches, if it’s like at a more finalized stage or if it’s an early on one, but I usually just go with my own ideas and see what they think about it.    [00:16:20] Miko Lee: Wow. I didn’t know that you could have that much say into it. That’s lovely. You talked a little bit about using the library for research. Gosh, I imagine that Neil deGrasse Tyson, there’s so much research on it, that must have been a deep dive. I’m wondering what the library meant to you as a child.    [00:16:38] Lorraine Nam: Yeah. I grew up as a big reader. The library for me it was a magical space that I wasn’t really sure what it was. My parents, because they grew up in Korea and moved here to the States, there was a big language barrier between us and they’re also very not talkative people. They just took us to this place one day and it was our local public library and it was right before closing and we were able to check out as many books as we wanted in whatever type of book that we wanted. I felt like that was magical, that there was no limit to it.    [00:17:19] Miko Lee: My last question is, what are you working on now?    [00:17:22] Lorraine Nam: I’m working on a few books, actually. I’m juggling a few, but they’re all very fun and different. I’m doing a book about a boy dreaming of flying, being a pilot. So I think that will be a really fun imaginative book.    [00:17:43] Miko Lee: What is one of your books that you would’ve liked to read to your younger self?    [00:17:50] Lorraine Nam: Mm, I probably Wei Skates On, the book with Nathan Chen. ‘Cause his story is about overcoming obstacles and being disappointed. And just feeling frustrated and upset. And I feel like that’s an important lesson even in adulthood. It’s not really resolved through words. It’s more of like the, everyone is there for him, his family is there for him, and they all just want him to enjoy what he’s doing and to not care about winning or losing.    [00:18:33] Miko Lee: Lorraine Nam, thank you so much for chatting with us about your work and about the library as a magical place, appreciate talking with you.    [00:18:42] Lorraine Nam: Thank you so much. I had so much fun talking with you.   [00:18:45] Miko Lee: Welcome, amazing award-winning children’s book author Uma Krishnaswami, I’m so happy to have you here on Apex Express.   [00:18:54] Uma Krishnaswami: Miko, it’s my pleasure to be here.    [00:18:57] Miko Lee: I wanted to start with a question I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?    [00:19:05] Uma Krishnaswami: What a wonderful question. Who are my people? My people are children who are, my ideal readership is the eight to 12-year-old group. I write for children. I’m not particularly thinking about audience when I begin writing. But at some point I want my readership to feel validated, whether they recognize themselves as being in my stories or my stories are offering them a window into a world that they are not immediately familiar with. So I would say those are my people.    [00:19:45] Miko Lee: And what is the legacy that you carry with you?    [00:19:48] Uma Krishnaswami: I grew up in India. The year that I was born India had been independent for all of nine years. So I carry very much that colonial legacy. I also am an immigrant to two countries, early in my adulthood to the United States and about 12 years ago to Canada. So my legacy is one of moving and finding new roots, finding community. Those are the things that I try to carry forward in my stories. When I began writing, I lived in the US and I started writing when my son was born. So there I was with a little brown baby and I went looking for books that would represent him and I didn’t find them. And I think that is what made me think in my early thirties that, real life people could write children’s books because of course the books I had read as a child were all written by people from England and many of them were dead. I kind of thought you had to be dead and British to be a writer. So yeah, it’s complicated, isn’t it? All of that works into, what you think of as, as your legacy. Having done this for 30 plus years now.    [00:21:03] Miko Lee: And you’ve written so many beautiful books. Tell us about a little bit more about that first book.   [00:21:09] Uma Krishnaswami: So the very first book, it was called Stories of the Flood. I realized very quickly that I didn’t really know what I was doing. I looked to folk tales and traditional tales as a way to teach me about story. My second book called The Broken Tusk Stories of the Hindu God Ganesha. That is the one that I consider as the book that taught me how to write. I had a wonderful editor [unintelligble] Thorpe at a small press in Connecticut, Linnet Books. She told me to lean into story and to see myself as a storyteller. In a way, every book I’ve written has taught me how to write.   [00:21:47] Miko Lee: Can you tell us about your favorite book as a kid?    [00:21:52] Uma Krishnaswami: My favorite book as a kid, it would have to be Winnie The Pooh.    [00:21:58] Miko Lee: And what was it about Winnie the Pooh that enamored you?    [00:22:01] Uma Krishnaswami: I came to it very early and aunt had traveled to England and she brought me my copy of winnie the Pooh in the House of Poo Corner. And I read them, sitting in very Indian gardens, sometimes up in trees. I spent lots of time up in trees and I took my own geography and placed it over the geography of the book. , So that for me, the a hundred acre wood had lime trees and banyan trees and possibly mango trees. It didn’t occur to me, until much later when I read an Enid Blyton reader. I had my moment of disillusionment with Enid Blyton and that’s when it really occurred to me that there was an us and a them in, in some of the storytelling I was consuming.   [00:22:49] Miko Lee: What age was that where you recognized that?    [00:22:51] Uma Krishnaswami: My post-colonial moment?    [00:22:53] Miko Lee: Yes.    [00:22:54] Uma Krishnaswami: I might have been a 11.    [00:22:56] Miko Lee: Oh, wow. And were you still living in India at that time?    [00:22:59] Uma Krishnaswami: Yeah, yeah. 11 was a very formative year for me. My grandfather passed away, so it sort of brought mortality , into the framework for me. Also that was my year of disillusionment with Blyton. ’cause I read The , river of Adventure. And the villain in it had my name. He was called. Uma, Raya or Raya Uma or something like that. And yeah, I was just shocked. Just totally shocked. It was pure coincidence, I’m sure. She probably just, pulled the name out of the air and plunked it in. But. I began to notice that he was described as dark skinned and he was described as cunning. All this language that had slid right past me before began to be apparent. So, yeah,    [00:23:47] Miko Lee: I love that. That is so amazing. This name, like what? That’s my name as the villain.    [00:23:53] Uma Krishnaswami: I’m the Bad Guy. No, I’m not.    [00:23:56] Miko Lee: And all of your books are such a wonderful clap back to that because you have a multitude of characters and so many different worlds. Initially reached out to you because I started reading book Uncle this trilogy of books that are so lovely. Can you first share a little bit about what the Book Uncle’s Trilogy is about.    [00:24:16] Uma Krishnaswami: Okay, so it didn’t start out as a trilogy. It didn’t even start out as a book. It started out as a short story and then it didn’t quite fit. It wasn’t a picture book. It seemed to have more layers than that, so it kind of grew. But what started Book Uncle and Me was I was visiting my parents in India. At the time, and I was on this very busy urban street and there was this kid sitting on this on the, on the sidewalk. Um, it was kind of a broken brick sidewalk, and she was sitting cross-legged right in the middle and she was reading book and she was just oblivious to the crowd going around her and the. Buses on the road and there were, you know, random goats and dogs running around and she just was ignoring everything and she was absorbed in her book. And I remembered that I had been that kind of reader as a child. There was an election going on at the time as well, and I thought, I wonder what would happen if I put those two things together. And that is how Book Uncle came to be.    [00:25:14] Miko Lee: And then there was just, you wanted to live in those characters more, so you ended up writing additional books?    [00:25:20] Uma Krishnaswami: Hmm and that’s a very good question. And actually no, I didn’t, I thought I was done. I wrote Book Uncle and Me back in, I’m say 2009, 2010, something like that. I probably started it in 2010. Um, it got published originally in India in 2012, I believe. And then it was picked up by Ground Wood in Canada and published in Canada and the US so North American edition in 2016. And I thought, you know, I’m done. I’m writing other things. And then come the pandemic and we’re all in lockdown. And like a lot of writers, I was doing, um, many, many, virtual. Presentations and programs. Um, and I did something through the North Vancouver Public Library and, there were kids zooming in from, you know, some from home, some from their bubbles, some from classrooms, whatever. And we were talking about book uncle and one of the kids, I think in third grade maybe, she said, Are you gonna write a sequel? And I am just joshing, right? I am. I said, yeah, should I? And they’re all going, yeah, you should. And you should write three because you’ve got three characters you should give them each a [story]. And I’m like, all right guys i’ll think about it. I absolutely will but not really taking it seriously. And then as often happens. the session ended and, you know, there we were all in lockdown going nowhere. And I thought maybe, maybe there’s something there. Maybe I could return to that. And in a way I was kind of intrigued because I hadn’t, had never thought about a trilogy and I was interested in how that would play out. Um, and it was kind of a writing challenge to myself, but honestly, once I started writing Birds on the Brain, which was book two it just kind of, I hesitate to say wrote itself ’cause I, that just seems, you know, so kind of woo woo. But, um, it did, it did. Uh, the, the kid came in and she took over and then a bird flew onto the rooftop and there I was on my way. So that’s the story of, of how that that happened. In retrospect, I’m really sorry I didn’t ask that child’s name because I would’ve absolutely loved to have acknowledged her in the book. But thank you child from North Vancouver, whoever you are.    [00:27:40] Miko Lee: That is so amazing. That’s by request, by audience request. You fulfilled this goal of a trilogy and and I I love that they even said, not just a sequel, but a trilogy.    [00:27:52] Uma Krishnaswami: Oh, they were. Yeah. They had it. I mean, they had, then they, they figured it out, which was really lovely.    [00:27:58] Miko Lee: And those, that trilogy is really geared, as you were saying to the second and third grade audience and I So many of your books are written around kids that can make a difference. What is it about that age that appeals to you and that motivation to show them how they can change the world?    [00:28:16] Uma Krishnaswami: I think they have this really, strong sense of what’s fair. It’s the age at which, you know, you start pushing back against what you see as small unfairnesses in your life. Parental restrictions quite often, or older siblings. You’re pushing back. You’re doing a little bit of finding who you are. And I think that uh, you begin to get a sense of awareness of the big world outside your small circle. And I think also one of the things that drives me, with writing to this age is that, I feel that it is so unfair that grownups, the adult world, has created so much injustice. And we just kind of expect the next generation to step up and step into it and, and do the best they can. and it just, it doesn’t seem right not to at least give them the wherewithal to think about that. And they do, they have children have voices and their voices matter. As we found out with, the climate strikes. I mean it really was young people who brought those messages out into the world and forced us to think about them and talk about them. So, I think that we owe children that.    [00:29:34] Miko Lee: So which of your books would you want to read to the second or third grade Uma?   [00:29:43] Uma Krishnaswami: [Laughs] Maybe Book Uncle and Me. Because I think there’s a lot of second and third grade Uma in that book. I was a compulsive reader like Yasmin. I would’ve absolutely read a book every day for the rest of my life if I’d had that many books available to me. I didn’t. So I read the ones I had over and over again. I lived in an imaginary world, quite a bit of the time.   [00:30:06] Miko Lee: Speaking of having access to lots of books, I’m wondering what your relationship was like to libraries, both as a child and then now.    [00:30:15] Uma Krishnaswami: I’m a proud and inveterate library goer. I put holds on things. I go browse on shelves. I download eBooks and audio books. I always have a pending list. I’m very, very grateful for libraries and also for librarians whom many of whom I have come to know over my life and am immensely grateful for. I did not have access to libraries much as a child. We didn’t have a public library system that was free and available and open to everybody. There were the kind of unofficial lending library types that I feature in Book Uncle and Me. There are sadly fewer of them now, but you still find them on street corners in India. I remember taking a book and giving one and then getting one back in return. That was, that was part of my life in some of the places we lived.   [00:31:07] Miko Lee: Did you know an actual book uncle?   [00:31:10] Uma Krishnaswami: I didn’t actually pay much attention, to the people who handed those books out. I was much more, focused on the books I was getting. There are characters who I’ve seen who have run these things. I once had somebody email me and say, I’m a book uncle. This is what I do. So that was really nice.    [00:31:31] Miko Lee: That’s sweet. I wanna roll back and talk a little bit more about your artistic process. I’m wondering if you, as a writer, as illustrator, you can sometimes be in your own world, and I’m wondering what your process is.   [00:31:43] Uma Krishnaswami: My place is right here. This is my office room, and I’m standing at a treadmill desk, and usually what I will do, is when I’m writing, I will turn that on very, very slowly. I usually start out at the idea stage with a notebook and a pen. I have fountain pens with very varied colors of ink, and I use those always to write my initial notes and questions about a new story idea. I don’t go to the computer and the keyboard until the idea has started showing up quite a few times. In, perhaps in a few iterations, almost as if I’m actually pushing it away at first, you know, saying, don’t scratch up my window until you are developed a little bit more. I’m not going to, indulge, the initial shallowness that usually the first idea is often not what it’s gonna end up being. I question that, and sometimes this is gonna sound really crazy, but, if I write those questions many times over in different colored inks, the answers begin to break out in clumps. Once I’ve begun to think, okay, well maybe I, I know what I could do with this. That’s when I open up a file.    [00:32:56] Miko Lee: Ooh share a little bit more about the different colored inks. How does that work?    [00:33:00] Uma Krishnaswami: Um, right over there, there’s a whole row of inks, and right over here is a fountain pen, and I have several of them. I change the ink colors, and when I get stuck with something, it really does help to write those questions to myself, in a journal notebook. I have a terrible handwriting, so I used to really worry about when people gave me nice notebooks. Little empty notebooks with beautiful glossy pages. I used to think, God, my writing is so awful. I feel like I’m desecrating this beautiful book. I’ve gotten over that and it’s actually really helpful to physically write that thought for me is very, very useful.   [00:33:39] Miko Lee: And when you see the different colors, is it like words that stand out to you, that you piece together? Yeah.    [00:33:44] Uma Krishnaswami: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or sometimes I’ll write something, in a paragraph, and then I’ll break it up and write it in a lineated way, maybe in a different color. You just start seeing things differently when you try different ways of thinking about the same thing. It’s all a trick to get the kind of managerial editorial mind out of the way. You need her later, but I don’t need her when I’m trying to shape something.    [00:34:13] Miko Lee: The, for the creative process. Mm-hmm. The multiple colors just helps    [00:34:16] Uma Krishnaswami: Right.    [00:34:16] Miko Lee: Pull you into that.    [00:34:17] Uma Krishnaswami: Yeah. It just loosens, it loosens my mind up so I don’t feel so focused on the objective. I often tell myself, I think Linda Sue Park used to say this. You don’t have to write a whole novel. You just write a scene. And so that’s what I tell myself, I’m a sceneist. I’m not a novelist. I’m just a sceneist. I write one scene. And that’s all I need to write. Then I will write another one and so forth.    [00:34:38] Miko Lee: And do you use sticky notes or something to keep those scenes separately or    [00:34:42] Uma Krishnaswami: just all kinds of things? I use sticky notes. I use little boards on which I draw plot lines, and then I write, notes to myself. I use the journal notebooks. I’ve started using Scrivener and I actually have found that helpful but not until I’ve got something, in enough shape to plug things in.   [00:35:01] Miko Lee: Oh, I love hearing about artistic process. That’s so fascinating. I appreciate you and you’re showing your beautiful pen and everything. It’s so great.    [00:35:08] Uma Krishnaswami: It’s messy, right? One of the things I’ve learned is to lean into the messiness and not try to organize things too fast, too early.    [00:35:16] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. Giving yourself the time for the creative juices to flow.    [00:35:20] Uma Krishnaswami: Yeah. Yeah.    [00:35:21] Miko Lee: So my last question is, what are you working on now?    [00:35:25] Uma Krishnaswami: I’ve actually just got done with edits on a picture book, which is going to be called Mango Sun. And then I’m working on another picture book. That’s just gone to my agent. It’s got to do with wildlife rescue and conservation in the Himalayas. It’s an Indian setting, but a very different setting from Mango Sun.   [00:35:44] Miko Lee: And most of the ideas from your books are just coming from your imagination or something you read or where are you pulling from to get your inspiration?    [00:35:52] Uma Krishnaswami: Everywhere. Absolutely everywhere. I have a picture book that came out of a trip that we took to Galapagos and will it ever take form? I don’t know, it’s about the rewilding of an island , and how when you bring one species back, the other one follows. Some of it’s from my childhood. I have two picture books that came out of a memory of planting a mango seed and watching it grow.   [00:36:21] Miko Lee: Sounds lovely. Two of my favorite things, mango and Sun [laughs], appreciate you joining us and sharing about your artistic process and your amazing book. And I’ll put a link to your website in our show notes. And thank you so much for joining us and talking to us about Book Uncle and your work.    [00:36:37] Uma Krishnaswami: Miko, thank you so much. It’s really a delight.    [00:36:41] Miko Lee: Welcome, Maggie Tokuda Hall to Apex Express.   [00:36:45] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Thank you so much for having me.   [00:36:47] Miko Lee: I’m so happy to have you talking about, your wonderful book, love in the Library. But first I wanna, ask you a question I ask my guest, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   [00:37:01] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Oh man. I feel like I have so many tribes that I identify with in different ways. , Gosh, who are my people? I mean, generally speaking, angry queer teenage girls very much my people. Tired Jewish aunties also my people. Exhausted Asian mothers also my people, [laughs] librarians and book people are my people. I, I, I don’t know. I feel like I have so many people that I feel an affinity toward and an affection for, and kinship with.    [00:37:38] Miko Lee: I like you naming all of those because we’re multifaceted people and there’s many different things that make up who we are. Yeah. And what is the legacy that you carry with you from all these tribes you’re a part of?   [00:37:50] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: From my mother, I carry a legacy of honoring the truth, like really believing that children are owed the truth and that part of being an adult is being courageous enough to tell it. but I also come from like a vibrant family of Jewish storytellers and I feel like I have that, that I carry with me as well.   [00:38:17] Miko Lee: Thank you. So you’ve written the book Love in the Library about Tamma, a woman who works at a library in the Minidoka concentration camp during World War ii.    [00:38:28] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Mm-hmm.    [00:38:28] Miko Lee: And she meets George and falls in love. Can you tell me about how you very first heard this true love story of your grandparents?   [00:38:40] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: I can’t actually, I don’t remember the first time I heard this story. It is a story that I’ve just always known. like for me it’s very much a fabric of how I came to understand the world and my place in it. Like sky is blue, grandma and grandpa met in a prison camp, you know, normal stuff. And so, um,    [00:39:00] Miko Lee: so it’s just part of the family lore?   [00:39:03] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Yeah. Like, it’s not something my mother was ever shy about telling us. And I truly do not remember the first time she talked to me about it because I remember being very small and already feeling like I knew that story.    [00:39:15] Miko Lee: Okay. Then how did you decide to turn it into a children’s book?    [00:39:19] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Yeah, so, in 2017 when President Trump took office for the first time, in his very first executive order was to sign the travel or Muslim ban where he was banning people from Muslim majority countries from coming to the United States. It was clear immediately that he was gonna be using his time and power to enact a white supremacist agenda. I knew I needed to do all the things that we’re supposed to do. Like I called my representatives and I wrote my postcards and I marched and I did all those things. But I really did try to audit what I had to offer, particularly children in that moment. That was unique to me. And I realized I had this beautiful story in my own family, not just about the cruelty of those sorts of policies, but also the resilience and power of the people who they target.    [00:40:05] Miko Lee: Ooh. Fired up the, that truth teller part of you just became ready to go.    [00:40:11] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Yeah.    [00:40:11] Miko Lee: Um, speaking of the impact of politics and what’s going on and how that relates to books, I know that in April, 2023, Scholastic wanted to include love in the library in a collection around AANHPI folks, but they wanted to edit your amazingly fierce author’s note. Can you share with our audience what happened?   [00:40:34] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: I mean, first of all, thank you for calling it amazingly fierce. In my author’s note, I talk about how what happened to my grandparents wasn’t an isolated moment in American history and that it was racist, which I think is a, a reflection of a very basic understanding of that history. It, it’s not, a creative extrapolation and. Scholastic offered to license the book, but my licensing offer came with a caveat, which was that I had to remove that entire paragraph. Um, and I had to remove the word racism from the text altogether. And so I decided to say no and say no publicly. And for about three months, my full-time job was talking about Scholastic, but also about our obligation to tell children, American history, honestly.   [00:41:19] Miko Lee: And they wanted you to get word of the word racist. Did they say why?    [00:41:24] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Yes, they basically said, the language is too strong and we fear that some teachers won’t bring it in for fear of this political climate, which is the nice way of saying like, we have to sell into places where book bans are happening and we think that this language is too incendiary for people who would ban books, which to me was always really, Unsatisfactory logic, because books about Japanese American incarceration are banned all the time and they don’t use as strident of language as I use in that author’s note. baseball saved us, gets banned. They called us, the enemy gets banned. This story is already considered dangerous by the people who would ban books, so they were trying to hold a center that just doesn’t exist.   [00:42:04] Miko Lee: And so what did you end up doing?    [00:42:07] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: I said no and said no publicly, just with like, sort of the hope of, sparking some intra community conversation among kid lit creators about what sort of edits are appropriate to offer people. I would, I still posit, that that’s a completely inappropriate edit and that’s about sanding down people of color’s, history and perspective to cater to a white audience. And I was unwilling to do it. and Scholastic initially released like a very, incomplete apology. And then when they received a lot of pushback about that, they offered a much more full apology. They offered to meet with me and my publisher, the CEO of Scholastic and the head of their education divisions, which is the division that made me this offer. And then they also had me work with a restorative justice consultant, for like a year to try to figure out what they could do better. But what I said to them at the end of that time that I told them, I was extremely transparent that I would be talking about this publicly. So I don’t feel bad saying exactly what I said to them here is, I think the exact same thing would’ve happened. It just would’ve happened more politely.    [00:43:17] Miko Lee: Wow.    [00:43:18] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: I don’t think that they actually reexamined what their role is as a publisher of Books for Children under Unconsolidated authoritarianism. They just figured out how to ask people to make racist edits more, more, uh, gently.    [00:43:33] Miko Lee: And you worked with them for one year with an RJ consultant.   [00:43:36] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: I mean, like, not every day, but we had, you know, meetings over the months. And she was a smart lady. Like I don’t think that she, you know, did nothing. I think she was trying her best, but I think that, you know, big institutions are very slow to institute cultural change and that that on the one hand has to happen from the top down, but also can’t happen from the top down.   [00:43:56] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:43:56] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: And so I genuinely believe that there CEO was trying his hardest to, to make a meaningful change, but without them really stopping and examining and questioning what their own role in this moment is in a critical way. I don’t think that they are going to be able to have answered what I would’ve required for them to, for me to then accept their licensing offer. ‘Cause they made it again.    [00:44:25] Miko Lee: So at the end of the one year long, they made the licensing offer to you again?    [00:44:29] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Yeah. I think just to be kind, just as like a gesture of like, listen, we know we messed up. We’d love to license your book and I still said no because I don’t think that they made meaningful enough change.   [00:44:40] Miko Lee: Hmm. Wow. I love this. What did you learn from this experience?    [00:44:47] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: That it is very unusual for people to blow the whistle within publishing, even when the examples are egregious.    [00:44:54] Miko Lee: Tell me about your connection with Authors Against Book Bans. Did that come out of this experience with Scholastic, or were you involved actively involved in this prior to that?    [00:45:05] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: No, it absolutely came as a result of my experience with Scholastic. Authors against Book Bans is an organization that I’m currently the president of. We’re over 5,000 book creators across the country who are united under a single point of view, which is that the government shouldn’t be allowed to tell us what to read. That’s what we believe and that’s what we fight for. And I got involved in founding the group along with specifically David Levithan, who’s a really wonderful young adult and middle grade author, who had put together most of this group before I even came on board. Cause we realized that authors needed a central place to fight. There was no one organizing specifically us. And so Authors Against Book Bans was born out of necessity and, the dearth of a place that existed for us. Everyone would call on us to come speak, but it was extremely ad hoc. We weren’t making any kind of unified movement, even though we all so passionately agree that, you know, book bans are anti-American and in violation of our First Amendment rights. And, you know, the freedom to read is a necessary freedom for a free and democratic society. and the reason I’d reached out to David initially was because I was hoping to put together something like Authors Against Book Bans, but just by myself, which is, maybe a testament more to my own personality [laughs] problems than anything else, but I was like, I’ll just figure it out. And he was like, you know, I’m actually assembling a group that’s trying to do this. Would you like to be a part of it? And that’s how I came aboard. But I had gotten interested in it because as a result of the Scholastic fiasco, I was invited to give the keynote speech at the Idaho Library Association in 2023. I gave my little speech that I’d been giving a lot then, um, about how we have an obligation to tell American history honestly. And, people were like, the reaction was so emotional to it and so profound and like, I thought it was a good speech. I’m proud of the speech, but like it, something else was going on and I could feel it. And I started talking to the people who were there and when these librarians started telling me what they had gone through, just for making books like mine available to children, stalking, harassment, death threats. One of them had been followed home, like really frightening, scary things happening to them on like, in some cases a daily basis. I realized like I was gonna be a part of this fight. That was that. I wasn’t gonna let them fight alone. And so, you know, in, in my advocacy work now, Idaho still holds like a very precious place in my heart because I think that it’s a very forgotten state. When we think about places that need help, when we think about places that have been gerrymandered, when we think about places where there are so many good people who are disenfranchised and unable to affect meaningful change in their state level, governments. That have just been absolutely run roughshod over by Christian nationalists. We should be thinking about Idaho. They have, I think, like the highest neo-Nazi population in the United States. so it’s a very direct line between my grandparents being incarcerated to the activism that I do now. And it wouldn’t have happened without Scholastic’s offensive offer.   [00:48:22] Miko Lee: I did not realize that librarians were personally being assaulted or attacked or followed. For books.    [00:48:29] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: You should watch, the librarian’s documentary that’s now streaming on PBS. Okay. Um, it’s common across the country. Amanda Jones, who’s an Authors Against Book Bans member no big deal, is a librarian in Louisiana that can’t go grocery shopping in her own hometown anymore for fear for her own safety because she has taken a stand to like refuse to remove lgbtq plus books from her school library shelves. It’s really dire. And I think people understand objectively that book bans are a problem in our country. I do not think that they understand how violent that this fight is. It’s a really dark and hard time to be a librarian. So if you’re a person who supports libraries, you should be thanking your librarians and letting them know one-on-one and in person face-to-face that you appreciate the work that they do, because there are people who are making their lives really difficult.    [00:49:25] Miko Lee: Can you talk about what the library meant to you as a child?   [00:49:30] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: I mean, honestly it was like a part-time babysitter. You’re a kid, there’s a library. Entertain yourself, you figure it out. I think the first time I really felt like a sense of belonging in the library was in middle school. We moved from LA to Northern California and I had to start a new school in seventh grade. I didn’t really know anyone and it was embarrassing to not have people to eat lunch with and things like that. So I would eat lunch in the library. And the librarian was really kind about it. Like she never called attention to it. She never embarrassed me about it. She would let me sneakily eat in there, even though there was a very specific rule that you weren’t allowed to eat in the library. she put, the Enchanted Forest Chronicles on an end cap once, and that’s how I found them and ended up reading the entire series and that was really when I became a fantasy reader and you know, my debut novel was a fantasy novel. I still feel very much like a fantasy reader kind of at heart, and that started there. I mean, we never know when libraries are going to save a kid’s life.    [00:50:39] Miko Lee: Can we go back to how you ended up writing this book about your grandparents’ experience? Sure. And what was the first spark for you to say, I wanna turn this into something. It’s a family lore, but I want more people to know about it.   [00:50:54] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: I mean, the Trump administration thing,    [00:50:56] Miko Lee: it was truly that. You said it was    [00:50:57] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Yeah. Trump was it    [00:50:58] Miko Lee: Trump got elected. People should know this happened.    [00:51:00] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Yes. What do you have to tell children in this moment If they’re Muslim, they’re scared, and if they’re not, they need a way to understand what it means to feel afraid. Both of those things need to happen at the same time of like, you have to offer comfort to the children of the marginalized. You have to offer perspective to the children who have the privilege not to feel that fear. And so I have this story and what I love about this story is. I know that children are capable of holding the complexity of this story is both very romantic and very sweet, and also the circumstances it happened under were completely unfair. That’s the kind of logic children are able to hold, and they should be given the opportunity to hold that kind of complexity because it’ll serve them for the rest of their life because most of most situations we confront are complex.   [00:51:57] Miko Lee: And how were you able to eke out more details of that story? Did you do family interviews or was it more from your imagination?    [00:52:05] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: My mother is a journalist and she kept my grandmother’s journals from the time she was in Minidoka. So some of it comes from my grandmother’s journals. Some of it comes from working with my mother to make sure that it felt accurate, tonally and factually. ‘Cause she was not gonna let me publish a book that was nonsense. I always say it’s Truman Capote true. ‘Cause the situation, the sensory details, all that stuff real, but the dialogue is made up. The dialogue is art. The dialogue is a way for children to understand how they might’ve been feeling. They never had succinct, quick conversations like this about their humanity and how they felt about each other. It was a long courting process, and so, you know. That part is made up for children,    [00:52:49] Miko Lee: but you, but you did include actual quotes from her journal too, right?    [00:52:53] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Yes. The book closes with her words, not mine.    [00:52:57] Miko Lee: Can you give us those final words?    [00:53:00] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: The miracle is in us as long as we believe in beauty, in change, in hope. Which are words she wrote while she was imprisoned in Minidoka.    [00:53:11] Miko Lee: And how does that resonate with you in the time of now?    [00:53:15] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: They are words that I desperately cling to in the hope that I can see them become manifest.    [00:53:23] Miko Lee: And what are you working on now?   [00:53:26] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Making Authors Against Book Bans as operational as possible.    [00:53:31] Miko Lee: And what does that look like?    [00:53:32] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: In late 2025, we became a nonprofit corporation. We have fiscal sponsorship under EveryLibrary, which is a really wonderful advocacy group that’s a combination [501](c)3-(c)4, which means you can make tax deductible donations to them, but also they do overtly political work. And so now we can receive tax deductible, donations and continue to do the overtly political work that we do. We are an unapologetically political organization. We are more than happy to help get people elected who fight for the freedom to read, and we are delighted to show the door to people who would stand in our way of that freedom.   [00:54:09] Miko Lee: And how can people get more involved in your work?    [00:54:13] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: They could absolutely go to authorsagainstbookbans.com and make a donation. We need it [laughs]. We are one of the only organizations that receives donations that exists for the sole purpose of fighting book bans. Most every other group in our space have an angle that book bans affect them, and so they fight against them, but that’s not their only purview. It is our only purview. So if it is something that you were interested in fighting, then you could make a donation to us. I would suggest signing up to be on the email list from EveryLibrary because they mobilize everybody, not just authors and book creators. And if you are a book creator, self-published, traditionally published, we don’t care. Then you should sign up to be a member of Authors Against Book Bans and you’ll get calls to action every Friday.   [00:55:07] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for sharing with us about your book and educating us about the work you’re doing and appreciate hearing from you. Thank you for joining us.    [00:55:16] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Thank you for having me.   [00:55:28] Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night..    The post APEX Express – 4.9.26 – Library Joy appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 4.2.26 – Surviving Through Solidarity. 02.04.2026 59мин

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Annie Lee moderates a panel with African and Asian Americans about the impacts of Birthright Citizenship and the need for Surviving Through Solidarity. Guests include: Lisa Holder, Ming Hsu Chen, Don Tamaki and Michael Harris.   Link to an APEX Episode on Wong Kim Ark from March 20, 2025 Show Transcript [00:00:00] Opening Music: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.   [00:00:40] Miko Lee: Welcome to Apex Express. I’m your host, Miko Lee, and tonight we will listen to a recent event, Birthright Citizenship, Surviving Through Solidarity that took place at Chinese for Affirmative Action. Just yesterday, on April 1st, the Supreme Court heard the case around birthright citizenship. This event that you’re gonna listen to was highlighting Asian and African American solidarity. As you might know, the cases of dread Scott in 1857 and Wong Kim Ark in 1898 are linked as landmark Supreme Court cases that directly defined and redefined American citizenship specifically about race and birthright. While Dred Scott denied citizenship to people of African descent, Wong Kim Ark’s case utilized the subsequent 14th Amendment to solidify birthright citizenship for children born to foreign nationals. I’m just noting that in this conversation, because it was a panel discussion that was live, there was some irregular use of microphones, so sometimes the audio can be a bit spotty. Please bear with us, and if you want to review the transcript, check out our website, kpfa.org, apex Express. And last year we also covered the story of Wong Kim Ark and have included this past show in our show notes. Now let’s listen in to moderator Annie Lee, Lawyers Michael Harris and Don Tamaki, Lisa Holder of Equal Justice Society and Ming Chen of UC Law.   [00:02:20] Annie Lee: Everyone. My name is Annie Lee and I am the managing director of policy at Chinese for Affirmative Action. Welcome to CAA’s office here in San Francisco, Chinatown. And thank you all for being here today for our discussion: Birthright Citizenship Surviving through Solidarity. CAA and Stop AAPI Hate are proud to co-sponsor this event because it matters to us. CAA has been around since 1969 and we are a community based organization that provides direct services to lingual working class Chinese immigrants. And we also try to improve their lives through policy and advocacy. And in 2020, we co-founded Stop AAPI Hate, which is the national leading aggregator of anti-Asian hate incidents. And we know at Stop AAPI Hate that anti-immigrant policies are anti-Asian hate. So why are we here right now? March marks two anniversaries of two Supreme Court cases. One is Dred Scott and the other is Wong Kim Ark. These are two seminal cases in US history. And next week on April 1st, the Supreme Court will hear oral arguments in the lawsuits challenging Trump’s birthright citizenship executive order. So we are here to talk about birthright citizenship because it’s an issue that is near and dear to both the Black and Asian communities.   [00:03:46] Without further ado, I am so thrilled to welcome this panel of amazing folks. Let’s start with Michael Harris. Michael Harris here on my right is a retired attorney. He, for many, many years led the juvenile justice division at the National Center for Youth Law, an incredible litigator and advocates, and I’m so proud that he’s here. He’s also on the Equal Justice Society Board. Next to Michael is Don Tamaki. Don is a lawyer at the firm Minami Tamaki, and you might know him because he was part of the legal team that successfully got reparations for Japanese Americans after decades of fighting that injustice. So thank you Don. Don and Lisa, actually, spend time together on the California Reparations Task Force. And so this is Lisa Holder next to Don. Lisa is the president of the Equal Justice Society, which is based in Oakland, an incredible legal organization that has been in many, many fights, including, they filed an amicus brief in support of birthright citizenship, and that brief discusses why this is an issue for the Black community. And last but not least, we have Professor Ming Chen, who is a law professor at UC Law, and she’s also the faculty director of the RICE Program, which is Race, Immigration, Citizenship, and Equality. So thank you so much to my panel and let’s dive in. So some of you know, but I am a former US history teacher, so I often worry that people don’t adequately understand American history and I fear that people don’t understand reconstruction and the 14th Amendment. So let’s start with the origin of birthright citizenship. What is birthright citizenship and where did it come from and why does its origin matter for understanding what’s happening today? So Ming, I’m gonna start with you because you’re a law professor and then others chime in. Lisa, Michael, Don. ’cause I think you’ll have more to add.   [00:05:45] Ming Chen: Great. Thank you so much Annie, and thank you to CAA for having us all. I’m really excited to be part of this conversation, which I think is going to be really the beginning of a series of conversations over the next few months. So you’re starting in the right place, Annie, in asking us what birthright citizenship is, because that is the heart of what the common lawsuit will be about: who gets to be a citizen in the United States. And that’s actually why I named my organization RICE. I think the emphasis is on the “C” [citizenship], because I do think it is something that brings together immigrant communities, as well as all of the different communities within the United States that have been expanding, over time. Getting to the, legal text I, I think it’s important to remember first that birthright citizenship is bigger than the United States. Worldwide there are at least two ways of becoming a citizen. One is by birthright and the other is by naturalized citizenship. So we’re talking about the birthright half. And the United States is not alone. It’s among countries mostly in the Western hemisphere that have chosen to focus on the “jus soli” version of birthright citizenship, which is “soli” is soil. So it’s birth by touching US soil. And the idea behind that theory was always meant to be an egalitarian one. It’s one that is about the idea that anyone can become a citizen, right? In contrast to the older system that Europe and other countries use, “jus sanguinis,” which is to say that citizenship could only be inherited by blood and heritage. Right? So I think right from the very beginning, it tells us what the text and the history of our 14th amendment citizenship clause intended to accomplish, which was to have an egalitarian spirit, a fresh start, and a continual renewal of what it means to be an American.   [00:07:33] Lisa Holder: Just sort of continuing on the path that Ming just opened up for us, birthright citizenship is very much connected to the African American experience. Particularly because the genesis of that right, really was a reversal of the construct and the regime of the enslavement era, right? Everyone’s aware that during that era, descendants of Africa were not considered humans, much less citizens. And the legal cases that were brought where people try to have their citizenship, and their humanity acknowledged, the courts universally said, no, you are not citizens and Black people have no rights that white people need to respect. Right. And so that was the case, law of the land until, after the Civil War, when we had the 13th, 14th, and 15th, amendments were lifted up and embedded into our laws. You also had the Civil Rights Act of 1866 where that body of law was overturned and enshrined into our constitution was a new law that said that freed people are citizens and they do have rights that everyone needs to respect and rights to equality. You know, we know that there have been problems executing that [laughs] but at least enshrined in our laws and enshrined in our constitution that is where the birthright citizenship, constitutional law came from. It came out of that experience.    [00:09:21] Michael Harris: I just want to add a couple things to that. I mean, it’s very distinguished scholars, they’re hitting it really hard. Two things, universality and so I wanna talk about that first. I got one more coming forward. It’s universal. Birthright citizenship is universal. And what I mean by that is everybody gets to be a citizen who’s born here in the United States. Period. It’s universal, applies to everybody. It doesn’t matter if you’re Black or white or Asian, none of that matters. That’s really important. The other thing is it’s that this criteria is not something that’s subjective, nobody gets to decide. It’s automatic. If you’re born here, you automatically have citizenship. Those two things being automatic and being universal I think are really important. And this, we’ll talk about this more as we go through the conversation, but those two things are what makes birthright citizenship so powerful and why they keep coming to try and take it down because it’s universal so everybody gets it and it’s automatic. Nobody can take it away. So let’s, we’ll I’ll just leave it there for now, but we’ll come back to that.   [00:10:33] Annie Lee: Don, this one’s for you. So the 14th Amendment passes in 1868. Like Lisa said, it’s to reverse Dred Scott, where the Justice Taney wrote that Black people had no rights, which the white man was bound to respect. And so they had to repudiate that through the 14th amendments, they have universal and automatic birthright citizenship with very, very few exceptions for like diplomats kids. Okay, that’s like so, so narrow. So 14th Amendment passes in 1868, but it takes another 30 years for a Chinese American man named Wong Kim Ark to establish that birthright citizenship actually applied to the children of immigrants. So Don, can you tell us Wong Kim Ark’s story, who was he, what happened to him and why did the federal rural government make him this test case?   [00:11:22] Don Tamaki: Just a couple words about context. I mean, one of the remarkable things about the case is it occurred during especially California’s ultra racist, ultra virulent racist period. It’s a contradiction in that regard. So just taking you back to the origins of where this racial pathology comes from, of course we focus, tend to focus on Asian American history, but actually you have to begin with Black history and indigenous history in the country. So in 1619, the first enslaved people were brought to America. And you know, 12 million people were kidnapped off the west coast of Africa. 2 million died during the middle passage. 400,000 were dropped off in America, and the million other millions ended up in the Caribbean, in the Brazil in Haiti, Jamaica, et cetera. And from there, slavery in America continued for 246 years. Two and a half centuries. Civil war happened in 1865. It concluded, and for another 100 years, Jim Crow exclusion infected America. And San Francisco, by the way, was heavily Jim Crow until the 1960s and into the 1970s. The vestiges of that exclusion and discrimination directly are rooted in the Black American experience.   [00:12:52] Michael Harris: And it’s still present here today. That’s why we have a Chinatown. That’s why we have a Japantown in San Francisco because of what Don just did.    [00:13:00] Don Tamaki: Redlining and racial covenants.    [00:13:02] Michael Harris: That’s right.    [00:13:03] Don Tamaki: Exclusions, redevelopment, and so on. So people think of California as being like a enlightened state. Well, California did enter the union in 1850 before the Civil War. 1849 enslavers came to California and they brought their human property with them. So there were probably at least 1500 enslaved people in California. 1865 Civil War ended, but Democrats in 1868 rose to power saying they would vote against any law that would have any equality between , Black Californians, indigenous people, and Chinese folks. And beginning toward late 1800s, that’s when the bulk of Asian American immigration began. First Chinese American coming during the gold rush, and then Japanese Americans have followed and so on. And so, Jim Crow seeped into all that. Chinese Exclusion Act was passed in 1882. California was known as a strong Klan state by the end of the 1800s with strong Ku Klux Klan chapters in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Oakland, Riverside, San Jose, Anaheim and so on. And so this was a toxic stew that Chinese immigrated into and other groups too. So unsurprisingly, tons of anti-Asian legislation policies, exclusion, follow. So Wong Kim Ark was born in San Francisco in 1873 to Chinese parents who lived and operated a business here. His parents continued to reside and remain in the United States until 1890, and then they departed for China. Probably no doubt because of the inhospitable conditions here. And racial terror was part of that, including the race riots here in Chinatown. And now that I mention it between 1865 to 1935, 352 people were lynched in California. Eight of those were Black Californians, but the rest were indigenous, Chinese, and persons of Mexican descent.   [00:15:18] So that was the environment. Wong Kim Ark continued to live in California into his twenties, reportedly working as a cook in San Francisco. And at the age of 21 he actually made two trips to China. He made a trip to China when he was 17 to visit his parents. Stayed there a year, came back without incident worked, came back here, worked till he was 21, then went back to China to visit his parents at that point. And when he attempted to reenter the United States, he was denied entry and detained with a threat of deportation upon the sole ground that he was not a citizen of the United States. Of course he was born here. So the issue was you know, birthright citizenship was the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment did it apply to Wong Kim Ark. And the interesting thing is about the case is that the court ruled in his favor. All persons born in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof. And those words are now, today becomes crucial. And people, I think we on the panel will talk about the implications of that language subject to the jurisdiction thereof. And it established this principle that basically was reaffirmed repeatedly throughout our history for this 100 year plus period. To get to your last question, why did the court do this? I think scholars smarter than me can explain this, but I’ll give you some clues. The court ruled in Wong Kim Ark’s favor despite the virulent context of the era, because that’s what the plain and expansive language of the 14th Amendment says.   [00:17:02] All persons didn’t say formally enslaved, didn’t say Black Americans. It said all persons. That’s what the plain expensive language of the Civil Rights Act of 1866 says: all persons and as Lisa referred to. And the congressional record of the 14th Amendment and the Civil Rights Act of 1862, where legislators are debating these issues they clearly understood, and the record shows that if you include this expansive language, it will apply to groups like Chinese and Asians. And so with that understood it was adopted and ratified in 1868, 14th Amendment, and it was reaffirmed in other legislation like the Immigration Act of 1940. They just assumed that if you’re born in this country, you’re an American citizen. It was applied throughout the turbulent history involving my community, Japanese Americans. As you recall, 1942, 125,000 people were rounded up and put in concentration camps and the first generation were ineligible to become citizens. They were given identity cards marking them as enemy aliens. 2000 people died in those camps, but people were born in those camps. And the government, despite the fact that we were at war with Japan, understood that if you’re born in this country. And even if your parents were quote, “enemy aliens,” you’re gonna be classified as American citizens. And maybe lastly, the court ruled in favor of Wong Kim Ark because the 14th Amendment was trying to repair the harm done by Dred Scott v. Sandford, which was to provide human beings who’ve been here for two and a half centuries, the right to become an American citizen with all the benefits that go with that, like voting for instance. And recognizing that if you don’t have those rights, you don’t have anything, you are you, you’re nothing. And for Japanese Americans, for instance, who are born in those camps, can you imagine if they didn’t have birthright citizenship? They’re not part of Japan. They’re not part of America. Where are they? They’re stateless. They have no home. They have no rights. And so it would create another underclass of people who have no rights for, and for which the 14th Amendment was trying to remedy which was you know, to provide a pathway. And so I guess you could say that’s why, that’s the incongruity of why Wong Kim Ark came out that way. In my opinion.   [00:19:59] Ming Chen: Maybe what I could add to the conversation is not just sort of who is included but who is not included. Because I think that’s actually a much more small and specific group than the current dialogue would have you believe. So in the very language of the 14th Amendment, this idea of subject to the jurisdiction thereof. It refers to three exceptions and only three exceptions. One is for Native Americans, and that is because as of 1924 there wasn’t a need to grant citizenship through the 14th Amendment because there were other provisions to grant citizenship to Native Americans. The second exception is for those who are children of diplomats. And the reason for that is because they have citizenship in their home country and their parents are only on a temporary post to the United States with the understanding that they’re here in the United States in service to their home country. And I think that actually points to the limited meaning of the third exception, which is the one that I have to say, I have a really hard time understanding is part of the debate now. Because I think up until now, you know, this debate renews itself a couple times every year. Every time there’s a new census, every time there’s redistricting on all of the anniversaries, and usually the fight is about subject to the jurisdiction thereof. But the third exception, which has come into the dialogue, is about the language of accepting children of invading armies. And that is one that I have not thought we needed to argue about. It really becomes a touch point as Don mentions this history with internment and the children of a group of enemy aliens. I think that gives it a whole new historical read.   [00:21:48] But one of the reasons that this argument, I guess I should first explain the argument because it may not be obvious to you as it was not obvious to me the first time I heard it, which was about 18 months ago. And so the argument is that the children of invading armies referring mostly to the children of immigrants coming across the US Mexico border should not be considered birthright citizens. So that’s kind of what the public debate, what the insinuation is behind some of the current effort to chip away at Wong Kim Ark through the executive order. There have been many efforts to chip away through legislation. I don’t know how frequently it’s been attempted through constitutional amendment, which is what it would actually require. That’s a very, very high bar that’s almost never met. I think most people haven’t really made a serious, serious effort there. But what I think is kind of stunning to me in the sort of momentum behind the current moment is that Judge Ho who himself is a birthright citizen. Took up this language and this argument about the children of invading armies after previously saying that he agreed with this interpretation that children of undocumented immigrants, children of temporary visas all of these different legal statuses in addition to all of these racial groups, would immediately be citizens. And the argument he tried to make is that it wouldn’t include the group at the border because historically it wouldn’t have included enemy aliens or invading aliens either. And I think that what is so surprising to me is that a) that there is meant to be this historical analog between what would’ve been happening at the time of the Civil War and what is happening now at the US Mexico border. We are not having a civil war. We are not in active military conflict at the US Mexico border. I’ll set aside other US military conflicts and how we wanna use that terminology. But I think that’s really important because I, I feel like it’s almost a trick, you know, to turn what is a media frame that’s meant to be like clickbait, right? The idea that there is an invasion at the border, right. That we’re being flooded with people who don’t belong here. And to try to turn that into a legal argument saying this is actually an invading army and that takes this group outside of the 14th Amendment.    [00:24:19] Michael Harris: That’s, I was gonna ask you a follow up question because we haven’t been invaded that many times by armies I mean, maybe the War for Independence when the British sent ships over and took over Boston for a while. I could see how if they had kids, I mean, that’s a stretch, that might apply to this. But I think the rhetorical device, they’re touching on where they speak of people who come into the United States without proper documentation as an invading army or an invading whatever. They use that terminology quite often. Is that enough to bootstrap into this exception?    [00:24:59] Ming Chen: I, not to me, [audience and panel laughter] I think not to serious legal scholars and jurists. I mean, and you know, I’m not trying to be inflammatory by saying that. I think there are a lot of people who are pretty far away from me on a legal and political spectrum who would also say that this argument is pretty unprecedented. To try to say that that would be enough to bootstrap it into the actual text of the constitution or the spirit of Wong Kim Ark. So I think it’s going really, really far. And I think too far, and I hope that if that becomes a line of discussion during the oral argument, that it would be cut off pretty quickly.   [00:25:38] Annie Lee: Well, let me punt it to Lisa then. If it’s pretty clear based on the text, based on the legislative history, based on, just everything in the last 125 years that has said very clearly that birthright citizenship is universal and automatic. Why is Trump doing this? Like, what is being attempted legally, but also politically? And Lisa, you take a stab at this first and then others can chime in.    [00:26:04] Lisa Holder: Yeah. You know, why is Trump doing this? [audience and panel laughter] There’s many layers, you know? And it, this is a strategic play and you have to sort of think about this in a layered way. Like there’s a long term strategic play. There’s a short term strategic play, there’s a procedural strategic play, but that sort of bootstraps and brings in a much more moral and narrative rhetorical play. Procedural play. The short term strategic play has a lot to do with the midterm elections. Right, right. And also limiting people of color’s ability to pick people who look like them as their representatives. Right. Because all of a sudden you’re not only putting into question people’s citizenship based on birth and turning this into a lineage thing where you have to bring me proof that your parents or their parents were born here or something like that, or were naturalized. So you’re starting to put into question in a practical measure, people’s access to the franchise, people’s access to the voting booth. Right. And you’re also starting to create a chain effect. So people are actually afraid to go to the voting booth. Right. And then you couple that with moving the migration of ICE. Now ICE is in the airports. Guaranteed by November, ICE will be in the voting booth, right? So you create this chilling effect. And then in terms of having representation that looks like you having people of color represent you in the US House of Representatives, your state representative. When you put birthright into question in this way, you’re also gonna be able to challenge people who are running for office, people of color, running for office and say, well, you can’t really run because you need to prove. And that is a rhetorical issue that we have seen being used already with both Harris and Obama, you know, because they were brown, Black people. Their birthright citizenship was, they were manipulating that rhetoric and that narrative.   [00:28:25] So this is not coming out of the outta left field. It’s iterative and it’s a it’s rhetoric that has been, you know, percolating up for a long time. This is just a culminating moment. The long term strategy is really about white supremacy. We know that, you know, all of the social science shows that in 20 years this, the country will be a majority minority country, right? And people of color will have a huge amount of power in terms of, you know, in terms of the vote, right? Because of that, switch to majority minority and white people will be in the minority. And so, this is about, from a long term perspective, ensuring that certain people maintain their power as an electoral block. Right? So that’s sort of like a long term electoral politics play. And then finally, the procedural issues are what’s outstanding, okay? As Ming mentioned, if you are going to use procedure to overturn a constitutional amendment that is a, an astronomical feat to accomplish, right? Because you need two thirds of all of the representatives in Congress, and then on top of that, you need 75% of the states to ratify that process. So overturning a constitutional amendment is virtually impossible. But what we have here is trying to do the same thing. One person trying to do the same thing using the powers of the executive office. It is unprecedented. It is absurd. It has no legal viability, but it is a political moment where this man sees an opportunity because of the bias that we see in the judicial branch, in the court system. And that is being leveraged for the executive to to do something that is unprecedented and that is actually procedurally impossible, right? For one person by just signing a document all of a sudden disenfranchising 13 million people. That is not the democratic process. It’s quite the opposite.   [00:30:38] Michael Harris: I just wanted to add to that. The Senate and the House of Representatives are both very narrowly controlled by the Republicans, and so it’s really important to Trump to maintain that control. He’ll only be able to continue doing these outrageous things by virtue of getting a rubber stamp from Congress. And so either house going the other way would put a stop sign in front of him and make it much more difficult for him to do all those things. All this money he’s spending he would not be able to do that if Congress was actually active in doing it’s job. Cause under the Constitution, spending is supposed to be controlled by the Congress, not by the Executive. So everything’s upside down, but that’s only working because Congress is allowing him to do that and not trying to stop him. If the Democrats are able to take over the Senate or the House where there’s only a three or four seat margin right now that would make it much, much, much harder for him to pull these things off. And so anything he can do to get an advantage in that way I think is also part of what they’re trying to do and trying to pull off.   [00:31:48] Ming Chen: One other thought, and you know, I’m trying very hard to not be professorly in the sense of using jargon or highfalutin terms, but I’m just curious, has anyone in this room heard the term perpetual foreigner before? A few of you have, I mean, I think it’s really pertinent here. The first time I heard of this idea was when I started to learn from other Asian American law professors when I was still in college. I think that idea was that for certain groups of people, including Asian Americans, it doesn’t matter whether you are actually a citizen by law or how many generations you’ve lived in the United States, right? So I’m a birthright citizen like Wong Kim Ark, but I think the first time I heard about it was, you know, this idea of Asian Americans not being able to be Americans socially in terms of belonging regardless of whether they are themselves, the child of citizens or immigrants and if they’re the sixth generation children, right. I remember taking a Chinatown tour with David and is that where we are about six generations out for a lot of the descendants. So even if you were in the sixth generation that if you look Asian, that you will still be seen as being foreign. And so I think that idea has animated a lot of the work that I do. Like why it is that a lot of the work I do on race centers Asian Americans and then a lot of the work I do on immigrants centers, the naturalization process.   [00:33:16] But I think it’s also important to recognize the breadth of that idea. Again, this idea of trying to blur the line between actuality, like what is real and what sounds like a fancy argument. Right. And I think what Lisa said, you know, her brief reference to the challenges against Barack Obama and Kamala Harris when they were running for a highest offices. You know, I think again, there’s not, it’s not a coincidence. I mean, to me that’s the perpetual foreigner at work again. Because it’s the idea that not only that Black people cannot possibly be the leader of this country, right? Sort of the, the figurehead of this country, but that for Barack Obama, the child of one international student on a lawful, probably f visa at the time, or that for Kamala Harris, the child of two lawful immigrants, that they cannot be birthright citizens that would be eligible for president. So there’s a lot of commonality in that argument. And I think, you know, people forget, I think people assume that if you’re talking about groups who are not Asian right, or who are not Latinx, that we’re not talking about foreignness, we’re only talking about race. And certainly we are talking about race, but we’re not talking about it exclusively.   [00:34:33] Michael Harris: And then in addition to all of that is just the straight up racism of it. And that’s supported by this notion of white supremacy. And what I mean when I say that, Lisa has touched on this already, is that there is a hierarchy of racial groups. And we’re not all created equal. There’s a hierarchy and the top group is, you already know, I don’t have to say it, is the whites [laughter], and then below that are the other people like us who look different. And the reason there’s, they’re able to put these groups out there and get people to buy into that belief system is because we look different. And so this is why the perpetual thing is perpetual it’s because we still look different. And that is a key part of the white supremacy. They still want to buy into this notion that white people are superior. And the only way they can make that work is by saying that people who look different are inferior.   [00:35:34] Annie Lee: I love this discussion because it’s so real. And what you are saying essentially is you’re talking about belonging and you’re talking about power. Like who gets to belong in America? And then that is necessarily connected with who has power in America, who deserves to have power in America. But I know that we all belong in America and that we have power. So I wanna shift this conversation now to what can we do? And so beyond the courts everybody tune in next week. But beyond the courts, what is the role of community organizing, state and local policy advocacy? Public education in defending birthright citizenship and fighting against the attack on birthright citizenship is one sliver of everything that he has done. So many executive orders that came out on day one. So how, how do we, as everyday people fight white supremacy? What can we do when they are redistricting and trying to take away our franchise right before the midterm elections? What do we do when they’re using courts that they’ve already packed with their federal society judges? And so what, what can an average regular person do? And Don I’m gonna go to you first.    [00:36:47] Don Tamaki: Let me say something in a very far less intellectual way than my colleagues here. This is a very old playbook. The playbook of demagoguery is very old. He said the old is humanity. And there are three elements to that playbook. One, appeal to prejudice, however, that is, race, skin, color, religion, whatever. Secondly, fear monger and scapegoat. And thirdly trafficking, conspiracy theories, fake news, false information, erasure of history. That’s how you control the culture. And it worked in 1619. It worked in 1882. It worked in Germany in 1933. And it works today, you know, 2016, 2020. You know, when Chinese were blamed as spreaders of the Chinese virus. Asian Americans, when Mexicans were characterized as drug dealers and rapists when Jews and immigrants were portrayed as replacing good white people. This dehumanizing [of] people where one more Black man killed during an encounter with law enforcement barely evokes a shrug because it is so normal. It is so normal, folks, and so it works. And so, you have the candidate Trump running for office and say to a national audience that, to the people of Springfield, Ohio, that Haitian immigrants are eating your dogs and cats and getting away with it. Or the images of the Obamas transposed on cartoon apes. And this is really Jim Crow stuff. This is Antebellum stuff. And it’s a recycling of the same playbook. And so the first part of organizing is being aware of what’s going on. This is not a new thing. Okay, it’s just a racial pathology that churns in one form or another, and it has an origin. It predates us. And so I, I think part of that is educating ourselves how everything is interconnected.   [00:38:58] And since we’re talking about Black Asian solidarity, I’ll just say a couple things. I mean, the civil rights movement had three triumphs that we all should remember. The Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act of ’65 began the dismantling of Jim Crow, which I, as I said, was a hundred year phenomenon following the end of the Civil War and the Immigration of Act of 1965. The third act. It ended as, you know, racist quotas. It prioritized family ties and skills and it greatly increased Asian immigration. As a result, the majority of AAPIs today are post 1965 Americans whose very presence here was made possible by the Black Civil Rights Movement. How many of us know that, you know? I mean, everybody focuses not everybody, but people tend to focus on their own peculiar predicament as if it’s unique to our own situation. And in fact, it’s all, quite connected. So I think part of this organizing process is realizing, you know, it’s Martin Luther King, the oft quoted statement where he says we may have come on different ships, but we’re in the same boat now. And especially in connection with what’s happening and, and you’re seeing it in different parts of the country where sure, immigrants are being targeted in Minneapolis, but then you have thousands of Minneapolitans that, you know, ordinary people, business folks, teachers, laborers, protesting in Sub-Zero weather against what, what happened? And, and yeah. You know what, can we do protest work? I hope everybody’s out there on March 28th, you know, this Saturday on the No Kings March.    [00:40:51] Michael Harris: Not just protesting, running them out of town.    [00:40:55] Don Tamaki: Well, [audience and panel laughter] Gregory Bovino, Gregory Bovino, who was the leading charge? Gone. Kristi Noem. Gone.    [00:41:03] Michael Harris: Yes, right.    [00:41:05] Don Tamaki: 2000 ICE agents in Minneapolis reduced to much smaller numbers. That’s right. Their plans then launching Ohio trashed. You know, so that’s why you, so boycotts, boycotts work. Ask Elon Musk. Ask Target. Local elections, Michael mentioned the midterm elections. It is if we don’t, if Democrats don’t get back the House, the country’s cooked. So, I mean, everybody should be involved one way or the other in that. Raising money, you know, we are part of a, a fundraising group called CAPA21, and there are other groups out there, but those are, those things are crucial to funnel money toward swing elections and critical races. The education part I think is essential. If you consider the velocity change in terms of the civil rights movement, Japanese American redress and reparations was a 20 year movement. And it was full of education of the public. Civil rights movement, same thing. The philosophy of change on marriage equality or LGBTQ rights and all those things happened because they became normal. They were, they started out as ideas that people thought were preposterous. You know, that’ll never change.    [00:42:26] Michael Harris: Right.    [00:42:26] Don Tamaki: And Jim Crow will never end. And San Francisco can segregate Asian Americans within Japantown and Chinatown. It, it will never change. But that idea of change, which were thought preposterous happens. But it requires civic engagement. So just examples.   [00:42:46] Michael Harris: I want to amplify two things that Don said. One is there will be a march this Saturday a No Kings March, and it’s really, really important for people to show up for that march. ‘Cause the one thing that’s devastating to a government is to have its people out there visible on the streets saying what the government is doing is wrong. Because you can spin certain things, you can lie about certain things, but bodies in the streets you can’t lie about. It’s there and it’s real. So that’s one thing that’s really important, really. But I would encourage all of you if you can, if you are able, please join us and come out on Saturday. The other thing I want to add to the Don’s excellent list is there’s a few groups in the Bay Area and in San Francisco that does postcards. And their strategy is they identify particular jurisdictions where it’s a very close race and it’ll be pivotal if a Democrat can win over a Republican, say in a House or maybe even like the Texas Senator race. That one’s probably gonna be very close too. And they send postcards to people encouraging them to vote. Don’t sit it out. And those extra votes can be the difference between winning and losing. And that might flip the House might flip the Senate. So those are some other additional items.    [00:44:11] Ming Chen: I think at a much more basic level, it’s just like telling, telling your story, telling the story of America. Because, you know, when we talk about all these rhetorical tricks, I mean, I think what it means is that that narrative is gaining a lot of power. And so I think you have to reclaim the narrative, right? You have to tell the counter story which happens to be the real story of what’s happening. This is something that I actually haven’t talked about this publicly, but my daughter she’s like on the brink of being 13, not yet a teenager. It made me really sad that she came back from her well-funded, pretty liberal public school about a month ago crying because she said that in her Mandarin Chinese class, there was a child who was saying that Asian people eat dogs. And then writing swastikas on the chalkboard and singing Nazi songs making fun of the women in the room, I guess they’re girls in the room saying that they’re all lesbian without knowing anything about them. And it just made me really profoundly sad because I’d like to think that a lot of ignorant narrative is because people don’t know better, right? I mean, as an educator, I hope that education will simply solve it. And it made me really sad to hear that again. You know, I’m, I’m on the brink of Berkeley. I basically live in Berkeley, right? So one of the most densely populated PhD overeducated people in America. And to be three generations in and to still have this story being told in the classrooms was really distressing to me. And even more distressing that it isn’t just the like Chinese people that eat dogs as being a stereotype from those who are not educated, but it’s something she might have heard on TV from the highest offices in the land, right? Something she might’ve heard the vice president say, for example. And so I just think it’s so important and doesn’t take education, doesn’t take a law degree, right? To be able to tell that story. And so I was really, really proud that my daughter you know, did file a complaint with the principal that she came home and told us about it. And you know, her two parents who are civil rights and immigration lawyers, [laughter] but also that she’s been like talking to her classmates right, about the fact that that’s not true. That’s not right. She’s been comforting the other kids in the classroom who don’t share the same background that she does. And I feel like that kind of work is just as important.    [00:46:45] Michael Harris: I want to add something to that. We have to take note of the fact that a lot of these types of comments really vile, racist things and not just about Asians, it’s also some of the things about Black people, young people are saying. Part of it is because it’s very easy to say things like that online because you can do it anonymously and not have to, you know, stand up and back up your comments, so to speak. And another part of it is our culture. We gotta be real about this. When I was growing up, I’m sure you were told this too, as the country became more educated and got more exposed to people of color and more people got higher education, all this crazy stereotypical racist stuff would go away because people would know better. That’s what they told me the whole time I was growing up and now we know that’s not true [audience laughter] because the reverse is happening. It’s growing because some people are making money by putting stuff like that online and selling t-shirts and hats and stuff like that. Or starting, you know, whatever they start. There’s this guy, Alex Jones, who made millions of dollars doing that kind of stuff. So some people are making money off of it. Other people are just buying into that ideological tip and are using that to gain power and influence and clicks. So we just have to be aware that this is a current going on in our society right now. And it’s happening and it’s growing and we, we need to be aware of it and start thinking about ways how we can put it to rest. Cause it’s, it’s happening.    [00:48:30] Annie Lee: Thank you so much. I do wanna give our audience some time to ask any questions that you all might have. So if you have a burning question to ask our illustrious panel now is your opportunity.   [00:48:45] Audience member: I was wondering how does this with, with the rhetoric of, of Washington pushing for IDs for voting how will that impact on people’s presence at the voting booths and validating their ability to vote?   [00:49:04] Michael Harris: I think what you’re referring to is the Safeguard [SAVE America] Act is now in Congress, and if it’s passed and signed by the president, then it’ll become law. And what it will require is anyone who wants to vote will have to have a photo ID. And even if you registered, you have to prove you’re a citizen. So those two steps are, I think, designed to suppress the vote of people of color. I mean, I think it’s very straightforward. This has been what Republicans have been trying to do for ever since the case that Don just mentioned passed and they were able to start doing this stuff. And I agree. It goes back to the notion that in 20 years, America’s going to be a majority minority country. There’s gonna be more people of color than white people. And I think that I’m just gonna come out and say that freaks them out. It really freaks ’em out. I think a lot of them have lived their whole lifetime where only white people were in charge, running stuff, and they can envision a future not too far off where that might not be the case anymore. And that’s scary. It shouldn’t be. I mean, we’re all the same. It’s all gonna be, you know, and there’s Black Republicans and Black Democrats and there’s Asian Republican. I don’t know why they’re so freaked out about it, but but they are freaked out about it. And a lot of this is to suppress the vote so that they can continue to stay in power and will not have to give up the power that they would lose otherwise.   [00:50:35] Lisa Holder: Yeah, I mean, it’s always been about limiting the franchise, right? And since the time that it expanded beyond white males with property, there’s been a battle to keep it as limited as possible. You know? And when you think about what happened after the Civil War, after the 13th, 14th, and particularly the 15th Amendment were passed and African Americans were allowed to vote, you had a 100 year backlash. Where 10,000 African Americans were murdered and lynched. Most of those were people who were trying to mobilize their communities to enter into the franchise and exercise the right to vote. That’s the retrenchment that we’re seeing being reiterated right now. Right. And we know that during that period, there were all kinds of hoops that, for instance, Black people had to jump through because of those Black Codes where you had to, for instance, prove that you can read this particular statement. Right. Or, you know, just like all kinds of random hoops that you had to jump through. And so when we see these barriers, these gatekeepers, like, oh, you have to have an ID. If this birthright citizenship goes through, no, no, no you can’t bring in your birth certificate. You know, we need some proof of your parent, of your lineage. Right. And it’s really is combined with that narrative and that rhetorical aspect, that Ming was articulating because although in fact we are America. America looks like us, Americans look like us. The alternative narrative where white predominance is the point is always going to be pushed where no, no, no, we are different. We are not normal and we are not America. And so that’s, that’s the narrative piece that all of this leads to. And that’s why this story of storytelling that Ming talked about is so important. And also it is so important to just constantly push back to resist, to vote. To run for office when you look like an American.   [00:52:45] Audience member: My question is, if the executive order passes, what can we do to resist? Because one of the things is it will also disenfranchise women because it’s about proving your identity that matches your birth certificate. Right. And there are really so many people that will not have their names to match their identities. And so what can people do to, to, to counter if that should happen?   [00:53:11] Don Tamaki: The legislative answer? Well, there’ll be court challenges, no doubt    [00:53:15] Audience member: but, but before, let’s say the midterm election.   [00:53:18] Michael Harris: Call your representative, fax ’em, email ’em, get your friends to do that, because it’s pending in Congress right now.   [00:53:25] Don Tamaki: But elections have consequences is the point. And it people who says, well my vote doesn’t count, doesn’t matter. Everybody, both parties the same. Elections have consequences. I, I guess the only other thing to remember, I keep, you know, repeating this, the solidarity and connectedness bears repeating because the story keeps recycling. It’s very recycled story about voter suppression. You know, the Civil War ended in 1865, 12 years of reconstruction. Lincoln is assassinated shortly after during the beginning of reconstruction and thereafter, you know, a deal was struck in the contested election of 1876. Federal troops are withdrawn from the south and then the voter suppression comes in literacy tests, poll taxes.   [00:54:19] Annie Lee: Mm-hmm. Grandfather clauses.   [00:54:21] Don Tamaki: Yeah. I mean in Virginia. During reconstruction 140,000 formerly enslaved people registered to vote after the collapse of reconstruction it was reduced to 21,000. California had you know, poll taxes. Other states had literacy tests and whatever, and it’s now repeating because folks don’t like the results of an election. The answer is not to, you know, broaden your net and appeal to upfront (?) policy. The answer is to suppress voting, stop people from voting. And so again, it’s a matter of awareness I think we have to realize the game plan. And it makes it so important about who is voted into the dials and levers of the controls that run the country. So that’s critical.    [00:55:13] Ming Chen: I can jump onto that. go vote. But I think it’s also, you know, it’s early enough to say, get your documents in order. Right? Go and be ready to vote in a way that won’t draw question, right? So you don’t have to wait for the lawsuit. And I will say for that, as someone who spends most of my days working with 20 something year olds who move all over the country, a lot of it is about sort of get your ducks in order, right? So if you don’t have a driver’s license with the current address that matches your name, you can fix that now. So many people who don’t have a normal ID because they never learn how to drive, right? So make sure you go get that document. You mentioned marriage, Anna, and I remember I moved to New York at the same time that I got married and trying to get my name on the document when I was it, you know, it’s like this endless loop, right? Because you’re getting a new ID because of your address. If you don’t have that, you can’t get your social security card, if you don’t have that you can’t validate the marriage certificate, right? There’s just this endless loop. And you have to get all of that in order, right? So I think maybe there needs to be two parts to our voter mobilization this year, right? It’s get yourself ready, sort of like arm up and then vote so that your vote will actually end up counting.    [00:56:33] Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night.   The post APEX Express – 4.2.26 – Surviving Through Solidarity. appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 3.26.26 – A Conversation with Lavender Phoenix: The Next Chapter 26.03.2026 59мин

  APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. APEX Express and Lavender Phoenix are both members of Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality (AACRE). AACRE focuses on long-term movement building, capacity infrastructure, and leadership support for Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders committed to social justice. Important Links: Lavender Phoenix  Dragon Fruit Project – Podcast Series Transcript: Miata Tan: ​[00:00:00] Hello and welcome. You are tuning into Apex Express, a weekly radio show, uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host Miata Tan. Tonight we have two incredible guests. From Lavender Phoenix. They’re a Bay area based organization supporting queer and transgender Asian American and Pacific Islander [00:01:00] youth. I really enjoyed my conversations with both of these folks, and I’m sure you will as well. This episode is a rerun from December, 2025 when Lavender Phoenix was at a transitional moment in their leadership.  Tonight, you’ll hear from the outgoing executive director as she passes the torch along to the new director stepping into the role, uh, we’re bringing this episode back in honor of the transgender day of visibility. That’s just around the corner Tuesday, March 31st. It felt like the perfect time to revisit these conversations. A quick note throughout both interviews, you’ll hear us refer to the organization as both Lavender Phoenix and its very cute nickname. LavNix. Without further ado, here’s my conversation with Yuan Wang, the outgoing executive director of Lavender Phoenix.   Miata Tan: Yuan, thank you so much for joining us today. , Would you be able to share a little bit about yourself with [00:02:00] our listeners to get started?  Yuan Wang: Yeah. I’m so excited to be here. , My name is Huan. My pronouns are she, and they, and I’m actually the outgoing executive director of Lavender Phoenix. You’re catching me on my second to last week in this role after about four years as the executive director, and more years on our staff team as an organizer and also as a part of our youth summer organizer program. So this is a really exciting and special time and I’m really excited to reflect about it with you.  Miata Tan: Yay. I’m so excited. I’d love for you to give us an overview of Lavender Phoenix and the work that y’all do, what communities you support,  Yuan Wang: Lavender Phoenix was founded about 21 years ago, and we are based in the Bay Area. We’re a grassroots organization that builds the power of transgender non-binary and queer Asian and Pacific Islander communities right here in the Bay. Right now our work focuses on three major [00:03:00] Areas. The first is around fighting for true community safety. There are so, so many ways that queer, trans, and more broadly, uh, working class communities in the San Francisco Bay Area. Are needing ways to keep ourselves and each other safe, that don’t rely on things like policing, that don’t rely on things like incarceration that are actually taking people out of our communities and making us less safe. The second big pillar of our work is around healing justice. We know that a lot of folks in our community. Struggle with violence, struggle with trauma, struggle with isolation, and that a lot of the systems that exist aren’t actually really designed for queer and trans API people, to thrive and feel connected. And so, we’ve been leading programs and campaigns around healing justice. And the last thing is we’re trying to build a really principled, high integrity leaderful movement. So we do a ton of base building work, which just [00:04:00] means that, everyday queer and trans API people in our community can come to Lavender Phoenix, who want to be involved in organizing and political work. And we train folks to become organizers. Miata Tan: And you yourself came into Lavender Phoenix through one of those programs, is that right?  Yuan Wang: Yeah. Um, that is so true. I came into Lavender Phoenix about seven or eight years ago through the Summer organizer program, which is kind of our flagship youth organizing fellowship. And I was super lucky to be a part of that.  Miata Tan: How has that felt coming into Lavender Phoenix? Like as a participant of one of those programs? Yeah. And now, uh, over the past few years, being able to lead the organization?  Yuan Wang: Yeah. It feels like the most incredible gift. I share this a lot, but you know, when I had come into Lavender Phoenix through the summer organizer program, I had already had some experience, doing [00:05:00] organizing work, you know, doing door knocking, working on campaigns. but I really wanted to be in a space where I felt like I could be all of myself, and that included being trans, you know, that included. Being in a really vulnerable part of my gender transition journey and wanting to feel like I was around people all the time who maybe were in a similar journey or could understand that in a really intimate way. I really found that at Lavender Phoenix. It was pretty unbelievable, to be honest. I remember, uh, the first day that I walked in. There were members and volunteers leading a two hour long political education that was just about the histories of trans and non-binary people in different Asian and Pacific Islander communities. So just being in a room full of people who shared my identities and where, where we were prioritizing these histories was really, really exciting. I think for the years it’s just been so amazing to see Lavender Phoenix grow. The time when I joined, we had a totally different name. It was [00:06:00] API equality, Northern California, or we called ourselves a pink and we were really focused on projects like the Dragon Fruit Project, which was a, a series of more than a hundred oral histories that we did with elders and other members members of our community. Things like the Trans Justice Initiative, which were our first efforts at really building a community that was trans centered and that was, was building trans leaders. And now those things are so deeply integrated into our work that they’ve allowed us to be focused on some more, I think what we call like issue based work, and that that is that community safety, healing justice work. That I mentioned earlier. So, it’s just been amazing to witness multiple generations of the organization that has shaped me so much as a person.  Miata Tan: That’s really nice. Seven, eight years that, that whole  Yuan Wang: Yeah, I joined in 2018 in June, so you can maybe do, I think that’s about seven and a half years. Yeah. I’m bad at [00:07:00] math though.  Miata Tan: Me too. So you’ve been executive director since late 2021 then? This, these few years since then we’ve seen a lot of shifts and changes in our I guess global political culture and the way conversations around racial solidarity issues mm-hmm. as you’ve navigated being executive director, what, what has changed in your approach maybe from 2021 till this year? 2025?  Yuan Wang: Wow, that’s such an interesting question. You’re so right to say that. I think for anyone who’s listening, I, I imagine this resonates that the last four years have been. Really a period of extraordinary violence and brutality and grief in our world. And that’s definitely true for a lot of folks in Lavender Phoenix. You mentioned that we’ve been living through, [00:08:00] you know, continued pandemic that our government is providing so little support and recognition for. We’ve seen multiple uprisings, uh, in the movement for black lives to defend, you know, and, and bring dignity to the lives of people who were killed and are police. And obviously we’re still facing this immense genocide in Gaza and Palestine bombings that continue. So I think if there’s, if there’s anything that I could say to your question about how my approach has changed. I would say that we as a whole, as an organization have had to continue to grow stronger and stronger in balancing our long-term vision. Intensifying urgent needs of right now and balancing doing the work that it takes to defend our people and try to change institutions with the incredible and at times overwhelming grief of living in this moment. Yeah, you know, in this [00:09:00] past year, um. Have been members of our community and, and our larger community who have passed away. Uh, I’m sure there are some listeners who know, Alice Wong, Patty by architects of the disability justice movement that Lavender Phoenix has learned so much from who have passed away. And we’ve had to balance, you know. Like one week there’s threats that the National Guard and that ICE will be deployed and even higher numbers to San Francisco and, and across the Bay Area. And oh my gosh, so many of us are sitting with an incredible personal grief that we’re trying to hold too. So, I think that’s been one of the biggest challenges of the last few years is, is finding that balance. Yeah. I can say that some of the things that I feel proudest of are, you know, just as an example, in our healing justice work, over the past four years, our members have been architecting a, a trans, API peer counseling program. And, through that program they’ve been able to provide, [00:10:00] first of all, train up. So many trans API, people as skilled, as attentive, as loving peer counselors who are then able to provide that. Free, uh, accessible peer mental health support to other people who need it. So I think that’s just one example. Something that gives me a lot of hope is seeing the way that our members are still finding ways to defend and love and support each other even in a time of really immense grief.  Miata Tan: That’s really beautiful and it’s important that you are listening to your community members at this time. How do you, this is kind of specific, but how do you all gather together? Yeah, Yuan Wang: yeah. You know, I feel really lucky ’cause I think for the last 10 years we, Lavender Phoenix as a whole, even before I was a part of it, has been building towards a model of really collective governance. Um, and, and I don’t wanna make it sound like it. You know, it’s perfect. It’s very challenging. It’s very hard. But I think like our comrades at Movement generation often say, if we’re not prepared to govern, then [00:11:00] we’re not prepared to win. And we try to take that, that practice really seriously here. So, you know, I think that, that getting together. That making decisions with each other, that making sure that members and staff are both included. That happens at like a really high strategic level. You know, the three pillars of our theory of change that I mentioned earlier, those were all set through a year of strategy retreats between our staff, but also a. 10 to 15 of our most experienced and most involved members who are at that decision making. The same comes for our name, uh, Lavender Phoenix. You know, it was, it was really our core committee, our, our member leaders who helped decide on that name. And then we invited some of our elders to speak about what it meant for them, for us to choose Lavender Phoenix, because it was an homage to the work so many of our elders did in the eighties and nineties. It also looks like the day-to-day, because a lot of our work happens through specific committees, whether it’s our community safety committee or healing justice committee. Um, and those are all [00:12:00] committees where there’s one staff person, but it’s really a room of 5, 10, 15 members who are leading community safety trainings. The peer counseling program, training new members through our rise up onboarding, um, and setting new goals, new strategic targets every single year. So, it’s always in progress. We’re in fact right now working on some challenges and getting better at it, but we’re really trying to practice what governing and self-determination together looks like right in our own organization. Miata Tan: And a lot of these people are volunteers too.  Yuan Wang: yeah, so when I joined the organization there were two staff, two mighty staff people at the time. We’ve grown to nine full-time staff people, but most of our organization is volunteers. Yeah. And we call those folks members, you know, committed volunteers who are participants in one of our committees or projects. Um, and I believe right now there’s about 80 members in Lavender Phoenix.  Miata Tan: Wow. It’s wonderful to hear so much growth has happened [00:13:00] in, um, this period that you’ve been with Lavender Phoenix. The idea of empowering youth, I think is core to a lot of Lavender Phoenix’s work. What has that looked like specifically in the last few years, especially this year? Yuan Wang: Yeah, the  Miata Tan: challenges.  Yuan Wang: That’s a great question. I think, um, you know, one of those ways is, is really specifically targeted towards young people, right? It’s the summer organizer program, which I went through many years ago, and our previous executive director was also an alumnus of the summer organizer program, but that’s, you know, an eight to 10 week fellowship. It’s paid, it’s designed specifically for young trans and queer API people who are working class, who grew up in the Bay to organize with us and, and really. Hopefully be empowered with tools that they’ll use for the next decade or for the rest of their life. But I’ll also say, you know, you mentioned that Lavender Phoenix has grown so much in the last few years, and that is such a [00:14:00] credit to folks who were here 10 years ago, even 15 years ago, you know, because, the intergenerational parts of our work started years before I was involved. You know, I mentioned earlier the Dragon Fruit Project where we were able to connect so, so many elders in our community with a lot of younger folks in our community who were craving relationships and conversations and like, what happened in the eighties? What happened in the nineties, what did it feel like? Why are you still organizing? Why does this matter to you? And we’re actually able to have those conversations with folks in, in our community who. Have lived and fought and organized for decades already. So I think that was like one early way we started to establish that like intergenerational in our work. And a lot of those folks have stayed on as volunteers, as supporters, some as members, and as donors or advisors. So I feel really lucky that we’re still benefiting in terms of building the leadership of young people, but [00:15:00] also intergenerational reality overall because of work that folks did 10 years ago. Miata Tan: That’s really important. Having those, those ties that go back. Queer history is so rich, especially in the, in the Bay Area. And there’s a lot to honor.  With the intersection between queer and immigrant histories here, I wonder if you have anything that comes to mind. Yuan Wang: I think that queer and immigrant histories intersect in the lives of so many of our, our members and, and the people who are inspiration too. You know, I’m not sure that. I think a lot of listeners may not know that Lavender Phoenix is as a name. It’s an homage to Lavender, Godzilla, and Phoenix Rising, which were two of the first publications. They were newsletters launched back in the eighties by groups of. Uh, trans and queer API, folks who are now elders [00:16:00] and who were looking around, you know, learning from the Black Power movement, learning from solidarity movements in the Bay Area, and saying we really need to create spaces where. Trans and queer Asian Pacific Islanders can talk about our journeys of migration, our family’s journeys as refugees, our experiences with war, and then also about love and joy and finding friendship and putting out advertisements so that people could get together for potlucks. So yeah, I think, um, there’s so much about the intersection of immigrant and queer and trans journeys that have been. Just even at the root of how we name ourselves and how we think of ourselves as an or as an organization today.  Miata Tan: I think today, more than ever all of these communities feel a little more than a little under threat,  Yuan Wang: we could say so much about that. I think one thing that we’re really paying attention to is, uh, we’re seeing in different communities across the country, the ways in which the [00:17:00] right wing is. Uh, kind of wielding the idea of trans people, uh,  the perceived threat that trans people pose. As a wedge issue to try to build more more power, more influence, more connections in immigrant communities and in the process like really invisiblizing or really amplifying the harm that immigrant, trans and queer. People experience every single day. So I think something that we’re thinking about on the horizon, you know, whether it’s, uh, partnering with organizations in California or in the Bay Area or across the country who are doing that really critical base building work, power building work in immigrant communities is trying to ask, you know. How do we actually proactively as progressives, as people on the left, how do we proactively have conversations with immigrant communities about trans and queer issues, about the, uh, incredibly overlapping needs that trans and queer people in all people who are marginalized [00:18:00] right now have in these political conditions? Um, how can we be proactive about those combinations and making those connections so that, we can kind of inoculate folks against the way that the right wing is targeting trans people, is fear mongering about trans people and trying to make inroads in immigrant communities. Yeah. That’s one thing on our radar for the future. Miata Tan: That’s so important. Kind of, breaking down those, those stereotypes Yuan Wang: totally breaking down stereotypes, breaking down misinformation. And yeah, it reminds me of a few years ago Lavender Phoenix held a few conversations with a partner organization of ours where there were some younger folks from our organization who are talking to some older immigrant members of that organization and we’re just connecting about, the sacred importance of, parenting trans and queer kids right now of, you know, and, and just having conversations that actually humanize all of us rather than buying into narratives and stories [00:19:00] that that dehumanize and, and that flatten us. Yeah. Um, so that we can defend ourselves from the way that the right wing is trying to hurt immigrant communities and trans and queer communities. Miata Tan: the youth that you work directly with each week. Is there anything as you reflect back on your, your time with Laxs that really stand out, things that folks have said or led conversations in?  Yuan Wang: Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean, I, I could, I could celebrate things that I’ve witnessed every single year. You know, we the young people in the summer organizer program experience so, so much in, in many ways it’s kind of like the faucets, like all the way on, you know, like there’s, they’re learning so much about skills and values and projects and, you know, just as some examples this last summer, we had a team of summer organizers who helped lead an event that was about COVID safety and disability justice, where people [00:20:00] actually got together to build DIY air filters that could hopefully, you know, make them feel safer in their own homes. And, um, in previous years we’ve had summer organizers work on the peer counseling program. There’s so much that folks have done. I think what I actually hear year after year is oftentimes the thing that sticks out the most, it isn’t necessarily just the project, it isn’t necessarily like the hard skill training. It’s people saying every single week during our team check-ins, someone shared an affirmation with me. I felt more seen. It’s people saying, you know, I didn’t expect that we were gonna do a three hour training. That was just about why it’s so important to ask for help and why that can be so, so difficult for, um, for queer and trans young folks. It’s folks saying, you know, even speaking for myself actually. I remember being a summer organizer and one of, uh, [00:21:00] my close friends now one of our elders, Vince spoke on a panel for us and, talked about what it was like to be young during the height of the hiv aids crisis, you know, when the government was neglecting to care for folks and so many members of our community were dying without care, were, were passing away without support. And all of the lessons that Vince took from that time holds now, decades later that still make him feel more hopeful, more committed, more full as a person. Um, that meant so much to me to hear when I was 21 and, still feeling really scared and really lonely, about the future. So I think it’s those, I, I wouldn’t even call them like softer skills, but the incredible st. Sturdiness and resilience that building long-term relationships creates that seeing people who show you a potential path, if it’s been hard to imagine the future. And that building the [00:22:00] skills that make relationships more resilient. I feel like it’s those things that always stand out the most to a lot of our young people. And then to me, I see them grow in it and be challenged by those things every single year. I feel really good. ’cause I know that at the end of the summer organizer program, there’s a group of young, queer and trans API rising leaders who are gonna bring that level of rigorous kindness, attentive attentiveness to emotions, um, of vulnerability that creates more honesty and interdependence. They’re gonna be taking that to an another organization, to another environment, to another year in our movement. That makes me feel really happy and hopeful.  Miata Tan: Yes. Community.  Yuan Wang: Yeah.  Miata Tan: . Looking towards that bright future that you, you shared just now Tina Shelf is coming on as the executive director. What are your hopes for 2026 Yuan Wang: [00:23:00] yeah. You know, I’m, I’m so excited that we’re welcoming Tina and we’re really lucky because Tina joined us in August of this year. So we’ve had a good, like five months to overlap with each other and to really, um, for all of us, not just me, but our staff, our members, to really welcome and support Tina in onboarding to the role. I feel incredibly excited for Lavender Phoenix’s future. I think that in this next year, on one hand, our Care Knock Cops campaign, which has been a huge focus of the organization where uh, we’ve been rallying other organizations and people across San Francisco to fight to direct funding from policing to. To protect funding that’s being threatened every year for housing, for healthcare, for human services that people really need. I think we’re gonna see that campaign grow and there are so many members and staff who are rigorously working on that every single day. And on the other hand, I think that this is a time for Lavender Phoenix to really sturdy [00:24:00] itself. We are in we’re approaching, the next stage of an authoritarian era that we’ve been getting ready for many years and is in other ways as so many folks are saying new and unprecedented. So I think, um, a lot of our work in this next year is actually making sure that our members’ relationships to each other are stronger, making sure that, responsibility, is shared in, in, in greater ways that encourage more and more leadership and growth throughout our membership so that we are more resilient and less res reliant on smaller and smaller groups of people. I think you’re gonna see our program and campaign work continue to be impactful. And I’m really hopeful that when we talk again, maybe in two years, three years, five years, we’re gonna be looking at an organization that’s even more resilient and even more connected internally.  Miata Tan: It’s really important that y’all are thinking so long term, I guess, and have been preparing for this moment in many ways. On a personal [00:25:00] note, as you are coming to an end as executive director, what’s what’s next for you? I’d love to know.  Yuan Wang: Yeah, that’s such a sweet question. I’m going to, I’m gonna rest for a little bit. Yeah. I haven’t taken a sustained break from organizing since I was 18 or so. So it’s been a while and I’m really looking forward to some rest and reflection. I think from there. I’m gonna figure out, what makes sense for me in terms of being involved with movement and I’m, I’m certain that one of those things will be staying involved. Lavender Phoenix as a member. Really excited to keep supporting our campaign work. Really excited to keep supporting the organization as a whole just from a role that I’ve never had as a volunteer member. So, I’m just psyched for that and I can’t wait to be a part of Lavender Phoenix’s future in this different way.  Miata Tan: Have fun. You’ll be like on the other side almost. Yeah,  Yuan Wang: totally. Totally. And, and getting to see and support our incredible staff team just in a different way.  Miata Tan: One final [00:26:00] question As you are sort of moving into this next stage, and this idea of community and base building being so incredibly important to your work and time with Lavender Phoenix, is there anything you’d like to say, I guess for someone who might be considering. Joining in some way or Yeah. Where they could get involved, but they’re not, not quite sure. Yuan Wang: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think that if you are a queer and trans, API person who is looking for community, um, looking to channel what you care about into action, looking to be with other people who care about you Lavender Phoenix is here. And I think that there is no more critical time. Than the one we’re in to get activated and to try to organize. ‘Cause our world really needs us right now. The world needs all of us and it also really needs the [00:27:00] wisdom, the experience, and the love of queer and trans people. So, I will be rejoining our membership at some point and I’d really like to meet you and I hope that we get to, to grow in this work and to, um, to fight for our freedom together. Miata Tan: Thank you so much. We, this was a really lovely conversation.  Yuan Wang: Yeah, thank you so much And also welcome Tina. Good luck.   Miata Tan: that was my conversation with Yuan Wang, the outgoing executive director at Lavender Phoenix. You may have heard Yuan mention the Dragon Fruit Project. This is an intergenerational oral storytelling podcast series and online project that explores the stories of queer and trans Asian and Pacific Islanders around love, activism and community. For links to the Dragon Fruit Project and everything else from tonight’s show, please head to our show notes at [00:28:00] kpfa.org/program/apex-express. Now here’s a little taste of the Dragon Fruit Project.   Amy Sueyoshi: Hi, my name’s Amy Swei. I’m the Dean of the College of Ethnic Studies at San Francisco State University. I am a historian by training, um, and my specialties are in Asian American history and history of sexuality. I use she or they pronouns. I usually do turn of the century history, which is 1890s to 1920, and I decided to start, you know, doing some oral histories in the early two thousands. Um, at the time, history wasn’t super sexy. Very few nonprofits were engaging in historical projects. Very few artists were also using history as a site of inspiration. So I was really skeptical about whether people would wanna join me, but, you know, people were excited to do it, which I was surprised about. API queer [00:29:00] history is also clearly on the margins in both the history field as well as in Asian American studies. And so, you know, I could scream it from the rooftop, tell lots of people, and most people wouldn’t care. They’d be like, yeah. And so there’s a way in which I think that what’s more important to me is that for the few people that it did matter. It, it really mattered. But generally speaking, I feel like the world doesn’t care, which is even more reason why we should care, right? If, if we don’t take care of ourselves, then. Other people aren’t gonna do it for us. Being a historian, I know that a lot of queer history generally gets lost because queer genders, queer sexualities are stigmatized. And if you’re Asian, you probably don’t wanna talk about it even more a, because you’ve probably been socialized to not talk about sexuality. Because of your ethnicity. And then B, if you were assigned female at birth and you know, socialized as a woman, you probably [00:30:00] wouldn’t think your life was valuable enough to save anything about it. Right. In terms of historical knowledge. You don’t have to be the George Washington of gay people. You can just be a regular person. And so I wanted, um, the older Asian lesbians who are still around to save their stuff, to be able to know how to save it, not throw it in the garbage, so that when they passed or when they were ready to give up their materials, we could deposit. At the Historical society and some younger dyke or young, younger queer pup could come along and do research on them.  ,   Miata Tan: That was a short snippet from the Dragon Fruit Project. You can learn more about this intergenerational storytelling series and lavender Phoenix who produces it at our website. That’s kpfa.org/program/apex-express. Now after a short break, we are sitting down with the new executive director of [00:31:00] Lavender Phoenix. Stay with us. ? ​ Miata Tan: [00:32:00] [00:33:00] That was, remember me by Tao. You are tuned into Apex Express on 94.1 KPFA, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host, Miata Tan, and tonight we are joining the Lavender Phoenix team at a transitional [00:34:00] point in the organization’s history. Our next guest is Tina Sho Baha, the incoming director of this local organization supporting queer and trans Asian American and Pacific Islander Youth. As a reminder, throughout this conversation, you’ll hear us referring to the org as both Lavender, Phoenix, and Laxs Nicks.   Miata Tan: Tina. Tina Shauf-Bajar: Hi Miata.  Miata Tan: How you going today? Tina Shauf-Bajar: I’m doing well, thank you. How are you? Miata Tan: Yeah, not so bad. Just excited to speak with you. tell me more about yourself what’s bringing you into Lavender Phoenix. Tina Shauf-Bajar: Sure, sure. Well I am the incoming executive director of Lavender Phoenix. Prior to this, I was working at the California Domestic Workers Coalition and had also worked at the Filipino Community Center and, um, have done some grassroots organizing, building, working class [00:35:00] power, um, over the last 20 years, of my time in the Bay Area. And I’ve been alongside Lavender Phoenix as an organization that I’ve admired for a long time. Um, and now at the beginning of this year, I was I had the opportunity to apply for this executive director position and talked with un, um, had a series of conversations with UN about, um, what this role looks like and I got really excited about being a part of this organization. Miata Tan: That’s super cool. So you, you, you weren’t quite in the space with Lavender Phoenix, but moving alongside them through your work, like what were what were the organizations that you were part of when you were, were working in tandem, I guess. Tina Shauf-Bajar: Well the organization that I feel like is most, most closely, relates with Lavender. Phoenix is, um, Gabriela, which is a Filipino organization. It’s a Filipino organization that’s a part of a national democratic movement of the Philippines. [00:36:00] And we advance national democracy in the Philippines. And, liberation for our people and our homeland. Sovereignty for our homeland. And Gabriela here in the US does organizing with other multi-sectoral organizations, including like migrant organizations, like Ante and youth organizations like Naan and we organize in diaspora. And the reason for that is because many of our families actually leave the Philippines due to, um, corrupt government governance, um, also like foreign domination and exploitation and plunder of our resources. And so many of us actually have to leave our countries to, to survive. And so we’re still very connected. Gabriela is still very connected to, um, the movement in the Philippines. And yeah, so we’re advancing liberation for our people and have been alongside Lavender Phoenix for many [00:37:00] years. And here we are. Miata Tan: That’s beautiful. I love hearing about, all of these partnerships and, and colLavoration works that happen in the San Francisco Bay Area and, and beyond as well. it sounds like you’re speaking from a personal place when you talk about, um, a lot of these immigrant communities. Could you speak more to your family background and what brings you into this? Tina Shauf-Bajar: The, the fight for immigrant justice? So I was born in the Philippines and um, I spent my childhood and adolescent since the, in the South Bay of LA and then came here to the Bay Area in the year 2000. Flashing back to when my parents immigrated here, my dad’s family first came to the US um, by way of the Bay Area in the late sixties and early seventies. My dad actually was a few years after he had arrived, was uh, drafted into the military so that they can send him [00:38:00] to Vietnam, but instead of going to Vietnam, he took the test to go into the Air Force and traveled everywhere in the Air Force and ended up in the Philippines and met my, met my mom there. And so. That became like they got married and they had me, I was born in the Philippines. I have a younger sibling. And, um, and I think, um, growing up in, in a working class immigrant neighborhood black and brown neighborhood, um, it was always important to me to like find solidarity between. Between communities. I actually grew up in a neighborhood that didn’t have a lot of Filipinos in it, but I, I felt that solidarity knowing that we were an immigrant family, immigrant, working class family. And when I was in college, when I went to college up in, in Berkeley, um, that was the time when the war on Iraq was waged by the US. I got [00:39:00] really I got really curious and interested in understanding why war happens and during that time I, I feel like I, I studied a lot in like ethnic studies classes, Asian American studies classes and also, got involved in like off campus organizing and um, during that time it was with the Filipinos for Global Justice Not War Coalition. I would mobilize in the streets, in the anti-war movement during that time. Um, and from there I met a lot of the folks in the national democratic movement of the Philippines and eventually joined an organization which is now known as Gabriela. And so. That was my first political home that allowed me to understand my family’s experience as immigrants and why it’s important to, to advance our rights and defend our, defend our people. And [00:40:00] also with what’s happening now with the escalated violence on our communities it. It’s our duty to help people understand that immigrants are not criminals and our people work really hard to, to provide for our families and that it’s our human right to be able to work and live in dignity, uh, just like anyone else. Miata Tan: You are speaking to something really powerful there. The different communities that you’ve been involved with, within the Filipino diaspora, but who are some other immigrant folks that you feel like have really helped shape your political awakening and, and coming into this space, and also how that leads into your work with Lav Nix today?  Tina Shauf-Bajar: When I was working at the Filipino community center that gave me a, gave me a chance to learn to work with other organizations that were also advancing, like workers’ rights and immigrant [00:41:00] rights. Many centers in San Francisco that, um, work with immigrant workers who. Wouldn’t typically like fall into the category of union unionized workers. They were like workers who are work in the domestic work industry who are caregivers, house cleaners and also we worked with organizations that also have organized restaurant workers, hotel workers. In like non-union, in a non-union setting. And so to me I in integrating in community like that, it helped me really understand that there were many workers who were experiencing exploitation at really high levels. And that reregulate like regulation of, um, Lavor laws and things like that, it’s like really. Unregulated industries that really set up immigrant workers in, in really poor working conditions. [00:42:00] Sometimes abusive conditions and also experiencing wage theft. And for me, that really moved me and in my work with Gabriela and the community and the Filipino Community Center, we were able to work with, um. Teachers who actually were trafficked from the Philippines. These teachers actually, they did everything right to try to get to the, the US to get teaching jobs. And then they ended up really paying exorbitant amount of, of money to like just get processed and make it to the us. To only find themselves in no teaching jobs and then also working domestic work jobs just to like survive. And so during that time, it really like raised my consciousness to understand that there was something bigger that wa that was happening. The, the export of our people and exploitation of our people was happening, not just at a small scale, but I learned over [00:43:00] time that. Thousands of Filipinos actually leave the Philippines every day just to find work and send money back to their families. And to me that just was like throughout my time being an activist and organizer it was important to me to like continue to, to like advance poor, working class power. And that I see that as a through line between many communities. And I know that like with my work in Lav Nix that the folks who experience it the most and who are most impacted by right-wing attacks and authoritarianism are people who are at the fringes. And born working class trans and queer people. Within our sector. So yeah. Being rooted in this, in this principle of advancing foreign working class power is really core [00:44:00] to my to my values in any work that I do. Miata Tan: What are some other key issue Areas you see that are facing this community and especially queer folks within Asian American communities today? Tina Shauf-Bajar: The administration that we’re under right now works really hard to drive wedges between. All of us and, um, sewing division is one of the t tactics to continue to hoard power. And with Lavender Phoenix being a trans and queer API organization that’s building power, it’s important for us to understand that solidarity is a thing that that’s gonna strengthen us. That that trans and queer folks are used as wedges in, in conservative thinking. I’m not saying that like it’s just conservatives, but there’s conservative thinking in many of our cultures to think that trans and queer folks are not, [00:45:00] are not human, and that we deserve less and we don’t deserve to be recognized as. As fully human and deserve to live dignified lives in our full selves. I also know that locally in San Francisco, the API community is used as a wedge to be pitted against other communities. Let’s say the black commun the black community. And, um, it’s important for us as an organization to recognize that that we, we can position ourselves to like wield more solidarity and be in solidarity with, with communities that are experiencing the impacts of a system that continues to exploit our people and continues to view our people as not fully deserving. Not fully human and that our people [00:46:00] deserve to be detained, abducted, and deported. That our people deserve to not be taken care of and resourced and not have our basic needs like housing and food and healthcare and it impacts all of us. And so, I see our responsibility as Lavender Phoenix, and, and in the other organizing spaces that I’m a part of that it, it is our responsibility to expose that we are not each other’s enemies. Hmm. And that we are stronger in fighting for our needs and our dignity together. Miata Tan: Community. Community and strength. I’m thinking about what you said in terms of this, the API solidarity alongside [00:47:00] queer folks, alongside black and brown folks. Do you have a, perhaps like a nice memory of that, that coming together? Tina Shauf-Bajar: So one of the most consistent, things that I would go to, that’s, that Lavender Phoenix would, would lead year after year in the last 10 years is Trans March. And my partner and I always make sure that we mobilize out there and be with Laxs. And it’s important to us to be out there. in more recent trans marches. Just with a lot of the escalation of violence in Gaza and ongoing genocide and also just the escalated attacks on on immigrants and increased right and increased ice raids. And and also the, we can’t forget the police, the Police killings of black people. And I feel like at [00:48:00] Trans March with Lavender Phoenix, it’s also a way for us to come together and you know, put those messages out there and show that we are standing with all these different communities that are fighting, repression, And it’s always so joyful at Trans March too. We’re like chanting and we’re holding up our signs. We’re also out there with or you know, people, individuals, and organizations that might not be politically aligned with us, but that’s also a chance for us to be in community and, and show demonstrate this solidarity between communities. Miata Tan: It’s so beautiful to see. It’s, it’s just like what a colorful event in so many ways. Uh, as you now step into the director role at Lav Nix, Lavender Phoenix, what are you most excited about? What is 2026 gonna look like for you? Tina Shauf-Bajar: I am most [00:49:00] excited about integrating into this organization fully as the executive director and I feel so grateful that this organization is trusting me to lead alongside them. I’ve had the chance to have conversations with lots of conversations since, since my time onboarding in August through our meetings and also like strategy sessions where I’ve been able to connect with staff and members and understand what they care about, how they’re thinking about. Our our strategy, how we can make our strategy sharper and more coordinated, um, so that we can show up in, in a more unified way, um, not just as an organization, but, but as a part of a larger movement ecosystem that we’re a part of and that we’re in solidarity with other organizations in. So I am looking forward to like really embodying that.  it takes a lot [00:50:00] of trust for an organization to be like, look, you, you weren’t one of our members. You weren’t a part of our staff prior to this, but we are trusting you because we’ve been in community and relationship with you and we have seen you. And so I just feel really grateful for that. Miata Tan: For an organization like Lav Nix, which with such a rich history in, in the Bay Area is there anything from. That history that you are now taking into 2026 with you? Tina Shauf-Bajar: Yeah, I mean, I think in seeing how Lavender Phoenix has transformed over the last 10 years is really not being afraid to transform. Not being afraid to step even more fully into our power. The organization is really well positioned to yeah, well positioned to build power in, in a [00:51:00] larger community. And so I, I feel like I’ve seen that transformation and I get to also, I get to also continue that legacy after UN and also the previous leaders before that and previous members and staff, um, we stand on the, on their shoulders. I stand on their shoulders. it’s so beautiful, like such a nice image. Everyone together, yeah, no, totally. I mean, just in the last few weeks, I, I’ve connected with the three executive directors before me. And so when I say. I stand on their shoulders and like I’m a part of this lineage I still have access to. And then I’ve also been able to connect with, you know with a movement elder just last week where I was like, wow, you know, I get to be a part of this because I’m now the executive director of this organization. Like, I also get to inherit. Those connections and [00:52:00] I get to inherit the work that has been done up to this point. And I feel really grateful and fortunate to be inheriting that and now being asked to take care of it so. and I know I’m not alone. I think that’s what people keep saying. It’s like, you’re not, you know, you’re not alone. Right. I’m like, yeah. I keep telling myself that. It’s true. It’s true, it’s true. Miata Tan: Latinx has a strong core team and a whole range of volunteers that also aid in, in, in your work, and I’m sure everyone will, everyone will be there to make sure that you don’t like the, the, the shoulders are stable that you’re standing on. Tina Shauf-Bajar: Totally, totally. I mean, even the conversations that I’ve been a part of, I’m like, I’m the newest one here. Like, I wanna hear from you, like, what, how are you thinking about this? There is so much desire to see change and be a part of it. And also so [00:53:00] much brilliance like and experience to being a part of this organization. So yeah, absolutely. I’m not alone. Miata Tan: One final question as with youth really being at the center of, of Lav Nix’s work. Is there something about that that you’re excited just, just to get into next year and, and thinking about those, those young people today that are you know, maybe not quite sure what’s going on, the world looks a little scary. Like what, what can, what are you excited about in terms of helping those, those folks? Tina Shauf-Bajar: Well, for a long time I, I worked with youth years ago before I before I found myself in like workers justice and workers’ rights building working class power. I also worked with working class youth at one point, and I, I was one of those youth like 20 years ago. And so, I know what my [00:54:00] energy was like during that time. I also know how I also remember how idealistic I was and I remember how bright-eyed it was. And like really just there wasn’t openness to learn and understand how I could also be an agent of change and that I didn’t have to do that alone. That I could be a part of something bigger than myself. And so so yeah, I think that like wielding the power of the youth in our communities and the different sectors is I think in a lot of ways they’re the ones leaving us, they know, they know what issues speak to, to them. This is also the world they’re inheriting. they have the energy to be able to like and lived experience to be able to like, see through change in their lifetime. And you know, I’m, I’m older than them. I’m older than a lot of them, but, I also can remember, like I, I can look back to that time and I know, I know that I had the energy to be able [00:55:00] to like, you know, organize and build movement and, and really see myself as, as a, as someone who could be a part of that. My first week here in, in August I actually was able to, to meet the, the, um, summer organizer, the summer organizers from our program. And I was, it just warms my heart because I remember being that young and I remember, remember being that like determined to like figure out like, what is my place in, in organizing spaces. So they were the ones who really like, radically welcomed me at first. You know, like I came into the office and like we were co-working and they were the ones who radically welcomed me and like showed me how they show up in, in, um, Lav Nix Spaces. I learned from them how to fundraise, like how Lavender Phoenix does it, how we fundraise. And [00:56:00] um, one of them fundraised me and I was like, I was like, how can I say no? Like they yeah. That we need that type of energy to keep it fresh. Miata Tan: something about that that, um. It is exciting to think about when thinking about the future. Thank you so much for joining us, Tina. This was such a beautiful conversation. I’m so excited for all of your work. Tina Shauf-Bajar: Thank you so much.  Miata Tan: That was Tina Sho Baha, the new executive director at Lavender Phoenix. You can learn more about the organization and their fantastic work at lavenderphoenix.org. Tonight’s show was a rerun and originally aired on December 25th, 2025. Tina is now several months into her new role, and we are super excited for what comes next. If these conversations tonight moved you, please check out our show notes [00:57:00] at kpfa.org/program/apex-express. We’ve added some links to previous Apex Express episodes featuring the Lavender Phoenix crew, as well as their Dragon Fruit Project, which is an intergenerational podcast series that you don’t wanna miss. Make sure to check it out. A huge thank you to all of our listeners out there. And in the words of Keiko Fukuda, a Japanese American judoka and Bay Area legend, “Be Strong, Be Gentle, Be Beautiful.”  A little reminder for these trying times. APEX Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me, Miata Tan. Get some rest y’all.   The post APEX Express – 3.26.26 – A Conversation with Lavender Phoenix: The Next Chapter appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 3.19.26- The Power of Tenderness 19.03.2026 59мин

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight on APEX Express Host Miko Lee speaks with Restorative Justice Educator and Author Tatiana Chaterji about her work on the power of tenderness. Tune in!   Tatiana Chaterji’s website Show Transcript [00:00:00] Opening Music: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.   [00:00:44] Miko Lee: Good evening. I’m your host Miko Lee, and tonight we are speaking with Tatiana Chaterji about Restorative Justice. Restorative justice is a movement and a set of practices that stands as an alternative to our current punitive justice system. It focuses on people and repairing harm by engaging all the impacted folks working together to repair that harm. RJ is built off of ancient indigenous practices from cultures around the globe, including Native American, African, first Nation, Canadian, and many others. So join us with Tatiana Chaterji.    [00:01:23] Tati, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?    [00:01:28] Tatiana Chaterji: Thank you for the question, Miko. The first thing that comes to mind, my people are the people we’re, we’re, we’re coming up on the cusp of a possible teacher strike, and I’m thinking about workers and the labor, movement and comrades in my life from doing, work as a classified school worker for about a decade.   [00:01:49] Then my people are also from my homelands. The two that I feel very close to me are in Finland, from my mom’s side, and then in Bengal, both India, west Bengal, and Bangladesh. And my people are also those who are facing facing the worst moments of their life, either from causing harm or experiencing harm as a survivor of violence.   [00:02:11] I think about this a lot and I think about also the smaller conflicts and tensions and issues that bubble up all the time. So my people are those that are not afraid to make it better, you know, to make it right. And I carry, oh gosh, what legacy do I. I wanna say first kind of the legacy of the Oakland RJ movement that really nurtured me and the youth that I’ve encountered in schools and in detention on the streets in the community. [00:02:41] Youth who are young adults and becoming bigger, older adults and, and, and also elders. To me. So sort of that’s whose legacy I carry in shaping the. Society that we all deserve.    [00:02:55] Miko Lee: Thank you for answering with such a rich, well thought out response that’s very expansive and worldly. I appreciate that. Can you share what brought you to this work personally?   [00:03:07] Tatiana Chaterji: Sure. As a young activist involved in Insight Women of Color against Violence and aware of the work of Critical Resistance, and I had a pretty clear politics of abolition, but I didn’t. Really think that it impacted me as personally as it did when I was in my early twenties and I suffered a brain injury from a vehicular assault, a hit and run that may have been gang affiliated or, a case of mistaken identity. My recovery is, is, is complicated. My journey through various kinds of disabilities has shaped me. But I think the way that I was treated by the police and by the justice quote unquote justice system, which I now call the criminal legal system, it because there was no justice.   [00:03:52] I sort of don’t believe that justice is served in the ways that survivors need. yeah, I really, I got very close to the heart of what an RJ process can do and what RJ really is. I got introduced to Sonya Shah and the work of Suha bga and I was able to do a surrogate victim offender dialogue and then later to facilitate these processes where people are kind of meeting at the, at the hardest point of their lives and connecting across immense suffering and layers of systemic and interpersonal internalized oppression.   [00:04:26] Just so much stuff and what happens when you can cross over into a shared humanity and recognition. It’s just, it’s just so profound and and from that space of healing and, and, and compassion, I’ve been able to think about. Other ways that RJ can look and have sort of been an advan, what is it evangelical for it?   [00:04:51] You know, I think that because we don’t see these options, I, I, because I knew people, I was able to connect in this way and I would just shout out David uim, who’s the one who told me that even if I didn’t know the person who harmed me, that this was possible. People so often give up, they’re just like, well, I have to feel this way.   [00:05:10] I have to just deal with it. Swallow the injustice and the lack of recognition. Just sort of keep going. Grit your teeth. I think we don’t have enough knowledge of what’s possible and so we harden ourselves My name is Tatiana Chaterji. I’ll be reading my flash essay split. Before I didn’t know what a traumatic brain injury was. My tongue had not curled the letters TBI together shaping the sound of nightmare. I had not heard the clipping of staples from a scalp fused after it was split to release pressure.   [00:05:46] They said, removing the right cranial bone flap, not conceived of the skull as giving pressure, a living organism of its own, a piece of its stored in a freezer for months after being removed in the dead of night. Attempted murder, vehicular assault under a blanket of fog. This city, these hidden stars.   [00:06:07] Never concerned myself with science or medicine or the mechanics of survival, the filaments of me unbreaking encased as they were in a thick clay from where I stood young and forceful, standing or walking or sitting, because I wanted to willful, bold, joy, stubborn, had not needed to wait for the all clear discharge orders that released me to a world of indifference.   [00:06:33] Before I didn’t know life without its sense. Its tastes that the olfactory nerve stretches behind the eyes, vulnerable to bruising or severing from an impact to the head that you won’t know until you know an extended game of dice that ultimately rolled no permanent damage. You will smell again, but with loss.   [00:06:52] Unfamiliar associating Jasmine for coffee, revulsion to orange comfort and cinnamon. Before I had not been the target of any physical or lasting harm. Had not thought that victim or survivor would ever describe me. Had not organized a vigil for rape survivors as I did while unconscious dreaming, waking up to pelvic bruises, believing I was one of them.   [00:07:19] The brain injury bisected my life until I realized it was one in a string of paper cuts that stop hurting eventually, that there will be other moments that change me, that there are many ways to slice a life when I pull her to my chest. A sticky, slimy worm, six pounds, four ounces, eyes closed, mulling to find her place on my chest for the first time.   [00:07:44] My chin against the wet mess of hair. When he carries me over the threshold into our suite at the Wise Owl Hotel in South Colta, garlands of sweet Jasmine adorn my hair and my henna painted arms drip with gold. When the drama therapist asks the group to simulate the attack rushing towards me so I can do what I wished I had done, run away.   [00:08:11] It returns my power and I own what’s mine Fingertips. Throbbing with the life they can grasp. Sirens through the dark machines. Beeping into a week of unconsciousness, awakening to wonder and madness. One toe at suicide’s brink, recovering in this outpatient patient treatment program for depression and anxiety.   [00:08:31] All of it here. The breath and meat and sky. When I walked through the gates of San Quentin State Prison for the first time, shuttering at the cold, heavy clank permanence at my back. The man in front of me breathes nervously in his starched blue uniform, gently meeting my eyes to say, I’ve never met a real victim before.   [00:08:53] Thank you for coming. He is, of course, a crime victim, but also an offender, and there isn’t room to be both in this place. I am here for the penultimate session of Victim Offender Education and Dialogue where the men have met for over a year now, each week to learn empathy and build rigorous self-reflection muscles to take accountability.   [00:09:18] They are ready to present their crime impact statements and to listen to a panel of survivors. None of us directly harmed or were harmed by each other. We are all surrogates. This then is the greatest innocence, the widest Gulf I’ve crossed before, sitting with men who have killed, who have touched this threshold, this fever wound of life and God and pain.   [00:09:44] My eyes were full of dew. I was blind to the logics of violence, the way the toxins seep under and you merge with its poison that you become dehumanized. Brutal. A mentality of war. The hurt echoing at a different pitch. Copper pebbles in an empty cave. Before I sat alone in confusion, untangling the threads of my trauma with what I knew from a peaceful life of privilege.   [00:10:12] In that first circle at San Quentin and every subsequent circle, I uncloak this ache, hear from men who explain the numbness, danger in every corner under the shadow of each day. I let them hold my story, share its load. Listen to theirs, my witness body lifting off bits of the weight they carry. I welcome insights previously unimaginable.   [00:10:39] Receive apologies I didn’t know I needed. It’s as if the lights switch on all at once, a brightness. The dialogue melts the isolation of my suffering. Its icy blanket of shame, allowing me to see what had been there all along, not monster. A human did this to me, broken alone, and suddenly I have permission to heal for 10 days.   [00:11:07] Baby birds remain in the nest. Their mother has built. I spent 10 days in a coma from within the protective circle. My family had drawn around me for the entirety of my two plus decades on earth. Infant wind, bone creature before flight 24 years collapsed to 10 days in the coma nest so I could bear free the weight of the universe.   [00:11:33] Soaring my mind at ease. A fresh page appears the dotted line of life’s flashpoints waiting to blink on forward cuts and selves.   [00:11:46] Miko Lee: I just finished your new book. Wow.    [00:11:48] Tatiana Chaterji: Oh you did?   [00:11:48] Miko Lee: Yes I did.    [00:11:49] Tatiana Chaterji: Yay!   [00:11:50] Miko Lee: Yes I did. Everyday Restorative justice, moving from crisis Response to positive school culture. Big title, weighty title. It’s so much, it’s so rich, it’s so beautiful. It has so many different elements for, um, for a classroom teacher, an educator, a community organizer. And it has not just like lesson plans, but amazing quotes and rubrics.   [00:12:15] Even rubrics. ’cause you could tell your classroom teacher with real experiences, which is like the land I live in. Stories and Spanish translations. So tell us how this amazing book, what, I mean you’ve been doing this work for years, but what inspired you to collect this into book form?    [00:12:33] Tatiana Chaterji: Oh, thank you Miko for reading it. That is the biggest gift ever. I want to shout out Heather Manchester Anita Vva and Evelyn Aquino. They wrote a book a few years ago on inter international Intergenerational Restorative Justice and really youth and adult partnership. And in that book, they featured the work that I had been doing at Fremont here in East Oakland.   [00:12:57] And I think that was the first time when I was like, wait, maybe we are really doing something special that deserves to be in a book. You know, like, what is this secret sauce? Or what is the, what is the combination? Things that we’re doing that’s really working that we want to share out with the world.   [00:13:14] And and so, yeah, so fast forward a little bit of time. There’s, I, I’ve actually now left the district. I’ve had more time to reflect on what that time was and what it was we were doing. And I had this invitation with Teachers College Press to, uh, to put it forth and really make it legible for classroom teachers who might not have always felt like they were invited into this work for a variety of reasons.   [00:13:41] Miko Lee: Well, one, I think that’s fascinating that it took somebody else writing about your work for you to say, Ooh, look at this. I think that’s fascinating. Uh, more to that later, but I’m wondering I think many classroom teachers already do this whole, oh, let’s come up with our rules for the classroom. It’s like respect.   [00:13:58] I mean, it’s a lot of the principles around restorative justice, but actually implementing a whole system feels. Overwhelming or like you were just saying, they don’t have access to it, so how does this book give them access?    [00:14:14] Tatiana Chaterji: Uh, well, and I, I wanna clarify from the top that I’m actually, I am, I have served in the role of a classroom teacher, but that’s not my training or background. And that I’ve, I’ve actually seen this schism or this kind of divisiveness between people who are in youth organizing, where I’ve, that’s my background. Youth organ organizing, youth leadership development, sort of student and youth services. Vis-a-vis classroom educators. And I was straddling both of these roles as a classified employee doing restorative justice alongside case managers, the school security officers who are now called culture keepers in Oakland Unified, and and administrators as well.   [00:14:56] And I was partnering with teachers to figure out classroom systems. I ended up co-teaching and then solo teaching a class within the Mandela academy for Law and Public Service. That continued until when that school, when that mini school closed down. But I learned so much from classroom teachers. The educators that I was working with are amazing and they are the original. RJ people, I would say, but they, they are not positioned that way and they aren’t often recognized or given the time and space to do circle and to do that culture building in their classrooms because they have any number of deliverables and test you know, requirements that they are responsible for.   [00:15:37] And so what I really saw was a kind of a sidelining of their work into the teaching and then the culture work happening in other pockets and primarily held by people who are not in front of the kids day after day dealing with. Management and communication and all the things that happen when you’re bell to bell responsible for so many different combinations of kids and communicating with their parents and making sure everything gets synced up. So I think I really wanted to honor their labor and and open the door. And, and, and I’m sure others have done it as well, but I just felt it wasn’t open enough. It wasn’t a, a sort of a strong enough like, here, you already do this. Why? What if you could take it a step further or here are some things that are legible for the systems and the, the tasks that you are responsible for, that you have to be responsible for. Let me create it in your, in your language. And really with great humility from my own position is, has not having the same training.    [00:16:41] Miko Lee: Thank you for pointing that out. And those titles of, you know, the classroom educator, the community organizers, the youth development person, people often like separate them, but really it’s about the creating the best culture for the students is what we’re talking about.   [00:16:56] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah. We should be on the same page.    [00:16:58] Miko Lee: Yeah.    [00:16:58] Tatiana Chaterji: And I think very often we are pit against each other and there’s sort of, you know, being in this violent, extractive society that that’s sort of what happens. But it shouldn’t happen, in fact. Right. And we should be more hand in hand working together when there’s been this smooth handoff between different roles on a campus. That’s when it’s just the best. And I want to, I hope to see that more.    [00:17:19] Miko Lee: Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about the story behind the, forward to the book? You write in a dedication to a young woman, and can you share a little bit about that story?    [00:17:30] Tatiana Chaterji: Oh gosh. Shamara Young her memory lives within me and with so many people in the Fremont community in Oakland. She was a student leader who was in the very first iteration of this RJ class, this restorative justice class that I taught for ninth graders, which really is the inspiration for this book. And she was killed shortly after we had just come back from distance learning from the pandemic, and it really shocked our, our entire community, an incident of road rage, and just the excess of the excess availability of weapons, you know, and, and firearms.   [00:18:07] So just wanted to honor her legacy, honor honor other students and young people who’ve been stolen from us, from violence here at home, and also in any number of imperial projects that, that. US government is responsible for just really seeing the interconnection between people’s struggle and the loss of life is tragic all the time. And the loss of a student is a particular pain that I just, I wanted to name because it is, it is so tender and other educators, youth organizers, parents, people who’ve known young ones to, to die in that way. It’s just something, a wound that stays and definitely motivates me to, to do this work.   [00:18:49] My name is Tatiana Chaterji. I’ll be reading my Vielle, a poem called Losing Shamara. When he tells me she’s gone, the air leaves my lungs losing shamara. The adults are loud in their grief. Students’ eyes down to forget their own stolen ones. Circles the forced ceremony of blood on false tongues, homage to her memory, her story without relief.   [00:19:15] When he tells me she’s gone, the air leaves my lungs. There’s enough rage in the streets, enough guns, too many per person drowning dreams. All the beef students’ eyes down to forget their own stolen ones. We fend for ourselves, feeding off crumbs, unmet needs of volcano. The lava, a sharp reef. When he tells me she’s gone, the air leaves my lungs. [00:19:41] Healing hearts. Now the school spins as she hums her voice and my mind a faint shaking leaf when he tells me she’s gone, the air leaves my lungs losing shamara. The adults are loud in their grief.   [00:19:57] Miko Lee: Well, thank you so much for grounding the book in that story, because I think there’s something about talking about doing that work, but keeping in mind a real person and the impacts of our violent society and what’s going on, but also how we keep moving on. So I, and    [00:20:13] Tatiana Chaterji: to say that, you know, Shaara really embraced this. She already, like so many of us and so many young people, she knew how to communicate through difficult situations, through drama and the gossip and what people are posting. And I saw that clarity and that maturity in her and wanted to just instill this book with that wisdom that, that young people often know how, already how to navigate these complex and oppressive systems. And that if we can offer a spotlight to them or something that’s substantive and really honors that intelligence, they’re, we, we could learn a lot.   [00:20:49] Miko Lee: Speaking of drama and learning a lot. I know that you have a background in theater and theater of the oppressed, and I’m wondering how you bring that work into your RJ work.   [00:21:00] Tatiana Chaterji: Oh, well that’s a big passion of mine. I have not done it as much in the classroom space as I might have liked. But it’s it when, when there is the invitation or the, the, the container to really go deep and create stories. Using theatrical forms and, and our bodies, this, this magic of image theater, it can be so powerful.   [00:21:22] The bulk of my work in that area has been inside of prison and doing programming in that highly violent system where there is generative, juicy, beautiful art to be made. And I just shout out all of the incarcerated artists that I’ve worked with who helped to shape those spaces and do performance in the prison where, where there was kind of like a witnessing and a participation across the audience and the performers who are on stage. That is that that gives me a lot of just light and hope and yeah. Good stuff.    [00:22:02] Miko Lee: I wonder if you could share a bit for folks that are not as familiar with rj uh, restorative justice work, and particularly at school sites, if you could share about the carpet of community building, what is that all about?   [00:22:15] Tatiana Chaterji: Oh yeah. Well, in the book I talk about the standard model of three tiers of restorative justice using kind of a triangle diagram where the, the bottom third, it’s not even quite a third, it’s the biggest chunk of the triangle, but that bottom layer is tier one. And this is not just in restorative justice, a lot of people will be familiar with this, where tier one is kind of universal. It’s supposed to be for everybody. It is supposed to work for everyone, kind of the way that you shape the culture and the conditions of a learning environment.   [00:22:48] Tier two is when things go wrong or rather. People might need more support, more individualized attention in an RJ context, that’s often if there’s conflict or a pattern of, uh, behavior that is harmful. And then tier three is at the very top where it’s the fewest people. But the idea that maybe somebody needs to be removed in a typical school that would be through.   [00:23:15] Expulsion or suspension or even juvenile detention and that they are in a restorative justice framework, they are welcomed back with intention and clarity on what that means. Doing something that’s called a cosa, a circle of support and accountability that looks at the ways that a young person can succeed and holds them to account with a lot of love and care.   [00:23:39] So that triangle is great. Kind of, but it also could be Reconceptualized as a carpet of just interconnecting reasons for meeting in Circle. And I really wanna credit one of my mentors and friends, Kamoa Johnson, who helped me to think about this as a sort of, there’s so many reasons to get, come together and circle that none of them should be prioritized more than the other. Or rather that every single thing should be grounded in the strength of the community and building relationships. So if I’m meeting with someone because they did something. Wrong, quote unquote, you know, that’s also an opportunity for relationship. And there should be, uh, a piece of us getting to know each other as human.   [00:24:23] That is part of that as well. And yeah, so I think like just thinking about the carpet you can think about the different kinds of circles that people practice. That is all happening as community. That community building has to happen first and alongside all of these other interventions. So it’s almost like the two top layers of the triangle would actually be situated in the bottom triangle or the bottom little chunk. And that bottom chunk would actually be a circle    [00:24:50] Miko Lee: or just reconfiguring the whole idea of a triangle.   [00:24:54] Tatiana Chaterji: Right, exactly. Yeah.    [00:24:55] Miko Lee: Yeah. So that we are all on one level space working in collective, uh, communication.    [00:25:02] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah, and I think I might’ve explained it in sort of a confusing way. You’d have to really look at the book to see the, the reconceptualization, but I wanna emphasize that The reason that this framework and this redesign is so crucial is because people jump into rj, they jump into a circle and they don’t do the groundwork to prepare everyone, including themselves to be there. But in a school environment, there’s any number of toxic elements that students are absorbing, that teachers are absorbing, that we’re all kind of just surviving with, you know, we’re hungry, we’re tired, we’re overstimulated, the lights are too bright. We didn’t get enough sleep. There’s distractions on our cell phones.   [00:25:44] There’s so many reasons that prevent us from sitting with each other and listening and being willing to learn from what another person might say or what their experience might be. And so if we can just go. Backwards and start with authentic connection and community building and skilling people up on how to listen. Then we’ll be more successful. Any number of people who have tried to do a circle and it fails, and I count myself in that group as well. It’s not. All your fault. In fact, it might not be your fault at all. There’s so many reasons why a circle will flop, and I think the assumption that I make is that people are not going to bear their souls to me or be vulnerable to me right off the bat.   [00:26:32] And maybe they won’t really ever. But that there are steps that can be taken to soften the hostility, the inherent hostility or harshness that is in our society, and to kind of slowly work towards a, just a, like a, a warmth. A warmth where people feel like it’s not dangerous to talk about the icky stuff and the uncomfortable stuff, and that we have to do it very slowly and in a container where students and really anyone can relearn the part of ourselves that we have to strip away when we grow up.   [00:27:11] Miko Lee: So I feel like you’re talking about multiple things. One is creating a safe environment for the young people to be able to speak what’s on their heart, what’s on their mind, and, and to recognize that everybody’s coming from such a different space. Even in one school. Even in one classroom. It reminds me of that theater game the moment before. Like you never know what happened to that person the moment before they came to that circle.    [00:27:34] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah.    [00:27:34] Miko Lee: And so it’s just to be very conscious of that, that, uh. All of the environment that they’re coming from.    [00:27:41] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah. Conscious of it and accepting of it, but also not accepting that that’s it. Like if someone is showing up and they’re on their phone or they’re kind of listening in a superficial way, they give a a cheap answer to a question that that’s not all they’re capable of. And I think we know that and educators would know that, but they might not have the tools to allow the student to go deeper or to, or even the time in their day in the semester to allow that growth to happen. And so I spotlight this experiment that we did at Fremont, which was 12 weeks long, and it rotated three times.   [00:28:18] It was an intro to the Media Academy, introduction to that. Architecture academy, and then it was a restorative justice class. And in those 12 weeks from the start to the finish, I noticed an incredible change in the student’s ability to connect with each other, to feel empowered, to take, uh, sort of shape what they understand and shape what they care about and what they might wanna advocate for. And it was an intensive laboratory. I was super strict about phones. You know, I was, it was like, that was the place where you had to listen, learn how to listen, which was, in fact, the, the, my biggest, deliverable for them was that they should know how to listen and that they, of course, knew how, but this was a way to practice it further.   [00:29:02] Miko Lee: Can you name a few other things in that 12 week session that were able to foment this, uh, community?    [00:29:10] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah, I think because it was a non-academic space, I was really able to prioritize how people are listening and how they are, uh, speaking or communicating. So everybody has a different comfort level with speaking out loud. And being in circle can feel extremely intimidating if you’re not someone who likes to talk in front of people or likes to have the spotlight on you. So through the course of the class, there were, there were smaller activities to practice, people’s public speaking, and even reflecting and then articulating what it is that you wanna say and practicing what does it mean to divulge something but not too much that you feel exposed.   [00:29:50] That skill, I think, is something that adults often take for granted, that we know how to evaluate a situation and shape our story correctly. And not all adults either, but it’s something that for young people that is some that, that they can grow into that. Understand what they might wanna share that would be meaningful without making them feel too naked in front of their peers. So it’s sort of like all of these dimensions of what are the pressures that they’re feeling among this group of people? What feels comfortable to share? And when we got, when we broke into the more vulnerable and tender territory, it was pretty incredible to see and, and witness the shift in energy and how letting people’s guards down could happen, like in a responsible way. I, in no way, am advocating for having students and encouraging students to open up about their trauma and then be let loose into the, to the world. You know, there are so many dangerous things that, that people are dealing with and having to say,    [00:30:53] Miko Lee: especially our social media world.    [00:30:56] Tatiana Chaterji: Right, absolutely. That’s a whole other terrain. But to say that there is perhaps more possible than what we accept. So, so we kind of, I think we give up on like, well, you know, people are gonna shut down. They already are shut down and they’re guarded, and boom, that’s it. Let’s just roll with it. Let me give them as many worksheets as possible, but I’m not gonna ask them to talk out loud because that’s too much and    [00:31:23] Miko Lee: watch a bunch of movies.    [00:31:25] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah. Well, I mean, teachers would tell me that they were so grateful that this space was being held because of what I think they understood as like a, a naturally therapeutic environment. And then of course, it’s crazy because it wasn’t always great. Sometimes it, you know, it didn’t, I couldn’t contain the space as well as I wanted to, but then students would say that I was the only teacher that would. Require them to speak out loud. Um, and so, and I didn’t do    [00:31:48] Miko Lee: what of the whole day? That was the only class?   [00:31:51] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah. Yeah. That’s pretty easy for some of them, you know, some of them and not all of them, but like, it’s, it’s remarkable to, to understand that education can happen that way. And increasingly with remote learning and with everything being sort of through this technological interface, it is possible to pretty much not communicate out loud. So then what does that mean? We are losing so much of what we’re capable of.    [00:32:13] Miko Lee: Yeah. It’s not giving voice to students at all. Literally.    [00:32:16] Tatiana Chaterji: Well, right. Yeah. Yeah.    [00:32:19] Miko Lee: I mean, you make me think of a couple things. One, when you talk about the public speaking, clearly that’s where your theater training comes in, not just naturally to do the public speaking, but then I also, when you’re talking about consent and what you’re sharing and how much you’re sharing of yourself, ’cause that can be very vulnerable for young folks, especially folks that are survivors. And I’m thinking about Dr. Danielle Allen from Harvard and her work around the youth participatory politics. Are you familiar with her stuff?    [00:32:47] Tatiana Chaterji: No,    [00:32:47] Miko Lee: she’s amazing she, she has this whole theory about how youth should share, and one of her components is sharing, um, digitally what they wanna share about who they are in the world. But I was just thinking about these as you’re speaking about how you’re getting them to talk about who they are. And I’m wondering if you could share a little bit more about youth leadership and how that’s part of the development of the program, how important that is.    [00:33:15] Tatiana Chaterji: Absolutely. Um, I have a quote from one of my favorite RJ comrades to BD Gibson where he says that anything a young person can do, they should do that. We should hand it over, you know allow for more scaffolded, kind of shared responsibility. When I think about from the beginning of a school year to the end, that, that there’s kind of a, the teacher is, and the, or the youth worker, whoever’s holding the space, is doing a lot of the work to, to teach the skills, to transfer, the skills, to mentor and empower or skill up the young people. And that through the course of the year, by the end of it, that the young people are taking it on, shaping it, and they’re doing so. In collaboration with the adults. And that it is not so much just youth adult partnership, but that there’s a, a sense of intergenerational ness even among young people.   [00:34:08] There might be two people on the same grade level, one of whom has been in a youth leadership program and already kind of feels confident about doing any number of things. And I and a and their peer who could learn from that. Or an upper class person and a younger class person or a recent graduate. Many of the teachers and staff at Fremont were actually alumni of the school, which was really powerful for students to see someone who had gone through those same hallways. I think that’s all a, a, a piece of it.   [00:34:38] The other thing about youth leadership is that the model of restorative justice in schools that I’m grounded in and that I would say many of my people in Oakland are grounded in is peer leadership. So when students are leading circles, and not just leading circles, but also kind of having their ears to the ground and listening to what students are worried about, if there are social and political phenomena that are affecting students and staff, how, how can they shape the questions or the activities that might need to happen? And, um,    [00:35:12] Miko Lee: for sure they know what’s happening way more than any teacher does.    [00:35:16] Tatiana Chaterji: Right. I mean, often or in a different way.    [00:35:18] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:35:18] Tatiana Chaterji: And so to be able to invite their voice in a, in a, in a meaningful container that isn’t tokenizing it, that isn’t sort of celebrating them just for being young or oppressed. I mean, I see that a lot in, in, in the work of youth leadership even. But to sort of meaningfully integrate them, which also requires training them in various, skills. And that partnership and that kind of coming together and doing things as a community can be transformative for everyone involved. I mean, for the staff that I’ve worked with, not just at Fremont, but at other schools when I’ve had students that are leading a training in circle keeping, for example, that can be so magnificent because the teacher gets to literally learn from their students, which I think is a dream that many people already are already want to do.   [00:36:06] Miko Lee: Absolutely. I think that’s true.   [00:36:08] Ayame Keane-Lee: We’re gonna take a quick break from the interview and listen to Slow Fade by MILCK.   MUSIC   [00:40:26] That was Slow Fade by MILCK.   [00:40:29] Miko Lee: I wanna pull a little bit bigger and talk a little bit more about restorative justice for just a moment. You write in your book about this need for a cultural shift, a paradigm shift because we are living in a capitalistic, uh, you know punishment based world in that we have this whole prison industrial complex and in, in fact the education to prison industrial complex. So can you talk about the different questions that are asked that, that restorative justice uses versus re, re versus like.    [00:41:01] Tatiana Chaterji: retributive.    [00:41:02] Miko Lee: Yes. Cannot say that word. So talk a little bit about the difference in our current system, which is this punishment base versus a restorative justice based. What kind of questions are different?    [00:41:13] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah, definitely. Uh, uh, and, and to say that it’s not just oppressive, capitalistic, it’s also very transactional, that our relationships are not human. They’re about just what people can get from them. And I’m seeing that just a lot. Um, but Howard Zer, I think is one of the people that I would credit with these contrasting questions in our current system, in, in sort of punitive and criminal or carceral spaces, the questions are who what law or rule was broken?   [00:41:40] Who broke it? You know, who’s at fault? And then what should be the consequence? And often consequence means punishment or retribution. It means a payback because you broke a law. And in that system, the law or the institutions, right, is. Is is more important than the person and the victim or survivor is invisible.   [00:42:02] They are not even really of concern. And our, that’s how our criminal legal system works. You don’t really often have to consult a victim or a survivor around what they want to have happened because they literally don’t matter. Their, their voice is taken away. It’s the state of California versus the person who is accused of a crime vis-a-vis the person who’s hurt or their mother, their community versus someone who, who has caused harm in a restorative approach.   [00:42:30] We ask. What the heck just happened? What, what’s going on? You know who was harmed? Who else was affected? And what needs to happen to make things right? And that what needs to happen to make things right? Also includes who needs to do what. So it’s going into the impact, the needs that arise from that impact, and then the obligations that. flow from there. So it’s a really sort of, it’s a more holistic and humanizing approach to situations that are complex. There’s always a backstory, and that backstory isn’t to justify the harm, it’s to give the context.   [00:43:14] It’s to understand how things happen. I have, I’m now a mom, I have two kids. If something’s going on at school or if my child is blamed for something, I have to ask what prompted this kid to do the thing? I mean, when you’re a parent, you really feel it quite closely, but it’s there all the time. There’s sort of, there’s cycles that get played out in any number of of problems that we attend to.   [00:43:38] Miko Lee: Thank you for breaking that down so clearly. We’re living in this time right now where the Epstein files are just being released and every day there’s a different story in the news. And I’m just wondering for folks right now that may be triggered every time they’re listening or reading or what, taking in the news, what are some RJ methods for coping with that?   [00:44:01] Tatiana Chaterji: My gosh, I’m one of these people that is triggered constantly and I just wanna give a shout out to all the survivors of, um, of child sexual exploitation, commercial sexual exploitation, and um, uh, sexual violence, all the, the, um, the predatory stuff that happens on the streets in my community and definitely at the schools where I’ve been. It is extremely. Unjust on the local level, and we’re seeing it at these, at the scale, right? Of power. So blatant,    [00:44:34] Miko Lee: so big, so international, so wild.    [00:44:39] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah. So in terms of how can RJ help, I mean, I would say that there is such a lack of any kind of accountability right now for the harm doers for people who have caused harm. There’s no, there’s not, there’s not, there’s not punishment, right? If you wanna look at retributive justice, there’s not sort of    [00:44:57] Miko Lee: no accountability.    [00:44:58] Tatiana Chaterji: There’s no accountability, but there’s no compassionate encounter with with people who have done harm either. I mean, the framework I guess I would offer is the social relationship window. Um, ol and waktel, Ted Wachtel, various people have reenvisioned it, Dorothy Ving, and if you get the book, you can see all that. So that legacy, but that we sort of, we hold people who are causing harm. We hold them with love, and we also hold them with with a clear structure and boundary around what’s acceptable.   [00:45:28] And so we’re not sliding into a permissive zone where where we just let it go and enable the behavior to happen. And we’re also not trying to dehumanize people who have caused harm and only see them as as monsters. I, I don’t know, miko when it comes to people with such. Positional power, privilege, and just impunity. I, I don’t know if I would apply that to the, to the perpetrators, right, to the people who, who are responsible for such harm right now. Like, that’s not the conversation that I’m interested in having. I think, yeah, I, I don’t know. Maybe I’m messing up this question.    [00:46:02] Miko Lee: No, you’re not. I’s so complicated because as an abolitionist, you know, I don’t want these. I don’t want people to be incarcerated necessarily, but these are some hideous, awful people that are like, so how do, how do you like wrestle with that?    [00:46:18] Tatiana Chaterji: I think it’s like the, there’s individuals right, who cause harm, but I think the main thing is that there are systems that allowed this harm and are allowing and have continued this harm to happen. I,  [00:46:29] Miko Lee: and it’s perpetrated. It’s still going on.    [00:46:30] Tatiana Chaterji: Right? Right. So I think like it’s really about dismantling these systems and, and shining the light on what is there that we don’t always see because we are caught up in the interpersonal, right. And so much of conversations about oppression will get into interpersonal because that’s what we see.   [00:46:46] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:46:46] Tatiana Chaterji: So students and community members will feel that someone is racist because someone has made a comment or this, that and the other. They’re not seeing the kind of racial capitalism, the structure of poverty and what’s baked into our laws that are behind it. So I think what circle and what restorative justice spaces can do is for me as someone who resists.   [00:47:08] Racial capitalism and resists structural inequality and the existence of poverty and racialized poverty in the way that it is, that it is. I think it is a space for dreaming together, for, for identifying shared struggle. What are the common things that we’re dealing with? A circle is really good because it breaks people out of isolation that they think they’re grappling with a thing on their own, and actually it is shared by other people and perhaps everyone. [00:47:38] So then from that place of shared struggle, what do we dream that, could be different? And how do we, organize together? I see the healing component of storytelling and of channeling grief and rage as connected to action and, and strategy. So that’s primarily what I would say. Thank you for that question, for this timeliness. Yeah.   [00:48:02] Miko Lee: I’m wondering what you want folks to understand after reading your book. What do you want them to walk away with?    [00:48:09] Tatiana Chaterji: I think I want people to maybe f feel a, a little bit more confident that they could to the heart of pain with students and with others in your life, that there are frameworks and structures or ideas that can really. Hold you and support you in navigating that hard stuff or that even to study it. Maybe I want people to be curious about how do people create justice? What is, what is healing based justice look like? What’s possible? Let’s study it together because it takes a lot of work. It’s not apparent. Our media and Hollywood, they glamorize, you know, there’s propaganda.   [00:48:58] There’s just like a glamorous portrayal of vengeance and that humanity, we can have vengeance, but we can also have other things. And those things might be the ones that we, the, the healing based justice systems is what we want when it’s representing our best selves and what could help us and future generations.   [00:49:17] So to walk away with a little bit of hope. To not throw away RJ because of your past experiences where it sucked. RJ often sucks because of how, because of any number of factors and that it doesn’t, don’t give up. Don’t give up. It can be better. And it, and, and there’s some things that we can all learn, including myself and any of my own mistakes, that there’s perhaps, it’s still worth fighting for and it’s still worth trying, and that we can do it slowly with care, with intention, and to give that.   [00:49:51] Allowance that people aren’t going to be always ready, and it’s not their fault. They, that doesn’t make them less good or smart or wise or politically, you know, savvy. It’s that there’s so much that we are working against all the time to, and, and our survival mechanisms are very toxic. We don’t really treat each other well, and that’s on purpose. In fact, we tear each other down and that’s, how, systems are allowed to continue to exploit us. So, yeah, that’s, it’s kind of a mouthful, but maybe a little bit of that, like a little bit of inspiration to try things on.   [00:50:26] Miko Lee: Okay, I wanna go back. Can you give a breakdown of what copaganda is?    [00:50:32] Tatiana Chaterji: Oh, I mean, copaganda is what we all, I mean, I consume it certainly. It’s like the, it’s Paw patrol, it’s my kids getting exposed to superhero dogs that are the police because they quote unquote save the day. So it’s these stories that the police are going to help. And in fact, we should look for them. There was a one time at a story circle, this person was reading a book and the, and the refrain was, help is on the way. Help is on the way. It gets kept going through any number of crises. That, anyways, just to say that help is not always on the way, as many of us know from trying to seek police protection from harm.   [00:51:14] And that when it does arrive, if it does, that it can cause harm to us, that we can be the target of it, especially if we’re disabled or marginalized in another way. So propaganda is so pervasive, but it’s this idea that the police will will help us. And we’ll keep us safe. And I know from personal experience, my students know that that’s not always true. So then what is the alternative? We kind of like add our voice and creativity into the mix, which is also very hard because it’s a lot to work through. People are so culturally accustomed to thinking about external sources of help and protection from the state. You know?    [00:51:52] Miko Lee: And many marginalized communities have created their own pods of safety, like the Black Panthers and queer and trans folks because they knew that they could not rely on the cops to be able to help.   [00:52:04] Tatiana Chaterji: Absolutely. Yep. And that’s how I learned with Insight, women of Color against Violence, learning from people, immigrant women, sex workers, people who are not protected, who could not, or undocumented immigrants who couldn’t call on the state for help. What. What do they need and how do they create that for themselves?   [00:52:22] Mimi Kim was a big inspiration for me. So in my politics, kind of like trying to bring more people into this, right? Like, what, what does it look like when you talk about abolition? And students are like, no, are you kidding? Like, we can’t get rid of prisons. And, and, and that is absolutely okay to have that conversation and to sort of open up the possibilities there, recognizing that many people have not even gotten the kind of justice or protection that a prison might afford for some people and maybe has in some instances. Right? So to start with that and to be like, you deserve better now. You deserved better, your family deserves better.    [00:53:00] Miko Lee: You deserve food and shelter.    [00:53:02] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah.    [00:53:02] Miko Lee: The basic things. Yes.    [00:53:04] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah.    [00:53:05] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for sharing. I really appreciate it. So I found this quote in your book by Aurora Levin Morales, and I’m just wondering, please read that quote for me, and then tell me the why. Why you included this, why it’s so important. [00:53:20] Tatiana Chaterji: Aurora Elevens Morales is this poet who has given me so much inspiration with her work. And this quote was on the website of Restore Oakland, where I’ve partnered and I just, uh, shout out to Kari and Tash and everyone. So she says, for what is revolution, if not healing? And I put it, uh, to start off my I think it’s the conclusion, breathing in shards from a broken sky, new air, and new lungs.   [00:53:46] And I kind of put forth this idea of RJ lungs, which really like strength are, are, are strong with the power of empathy and connection. And yeah, I think that political work and change making happens with healing, it’s before and after and all around that there has to be that synchronicity between healing what’s wounded and, and, and giving us space for that while also activating change that they shouldn’t happen in these bubbles, which I think is, uh, more and more people are embracing that interplay between the two. It’s not just you, you heal over here and therapy. You do your political work where you burn out and people are getting abused and hurt all the time. It’s like more we should hold all of our human messy selves in the political work.    [00:54:35] Miko Lee: Thanks so much. And then my final thing is you included a quote by a ninth grade student. Could you share that quote with me and    [00:54:43] Tatiana Chaterji: Yes.    [00:54:43] Miko Lee: Why it’s so important?    [00:54:44] Tatiana Chaterji: One of my, um, teacher comrades Danielle Zimmerman, this quote came from one of her students in a writing exercise. And Ms. Z is someone who just really embraces RJ in all, in, in all ways. And so the student says, feed your heart with love, forgiveness, hope, and healing words. There is no other way to survive. And I think for me, it’s like if we are supposed to live in this world, if we want to live here, and we are taught that we have to be hard, we have to protect ourselves and be harsh and battle the hostility, uh, what is going to happen to us as a result? How are we shaping the, the, the next generation, our families the school environments that we’re part of, so that instead of that hardness feed yourself with this love, with this softness, with the power of of tenderness and and healing and it just, yeah, this student is so brilliant.   [00:55:46] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for listening tonight. Remember to reconnect to your ancestral technologies and hold in the power of tenderness.   [00:55:55] Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night.   The post APEX Express – 3.19.26- The Power of Tenderness appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 3.12.26- Feed Your Heart 12.03.2026 59мин

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight our show is called Feed Your Heart. Host Miko Lee speaks with the collaborators and creators of the Asian American Pacific Islander Restorative Justice Network: Elli Nagai-Rothe & Tatiana Chaterji.   Restorative Justice is a movement and a set of practices that stands as an alternative to our current punitive justice system. It focuses on people and repairing harm by engaging all the impacted people working together to repair the harm. RJ is built off of ancient indigenous practices from cultures around the globe, including Native American, African, First Nation Canadian, and so many others. To find out more about Restorative Justice and the work of our guests check out Info about the AAPI RJ Network on the Ripple website: www.ripplecollective.org/aapirjnetwork NACRJ conference in New Orleans: www.nacrj.org/2026-conference Show Transcript [00:00:00] Opening Music: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.   [00:00:44] Miko Lee: Good evening. I’m your host Miko Lee, and tonight our show is called Feed Your Heart. And we are speaking about the collaborators and creators of the Asian American Pacific Islander Restorative Justice Network with the collaborators, Elli Nagai-Rothe and Tatiana Chaterji.   [00:01:03] Restorative justice is a movement and a set of practices that stands as an alternative to our current punitive justice system. It focuses on people and repairing harm by engaging all the impacted folks working together to repair that harm. RJ is built off of ancient indigenous practices from cultures around the globe, including Native American, African, first Nation Canadian, and many others. So join us as we feed your heart.    [00:02:01] Welcome to Apex Express. My lovely colleagues, Elli Nagai-Rothe, and Tatiana Chaterji. I’m so happy to speak with you both today. I wanna start off with a question I ask all of my guests, and Ellie, I’m gonna start with you and then we’ll go with to you, Tati. And the question is who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   [00:02:24] Elli Nagai-Rothe: Hmm. I love that question. Thank you. My people come from Japan and Korea and China and Germany. My people are community builders and entrepreneurs survivors, people who have caused harm, people who have experienced harm people who’ve worked towards repair dreamers, artists and people who like really good food.   [00:02:51] And I carry their legacy of resilience and of gaman, which is a Japanese word that’s a little hard to translate, but basically means something like moving through moving through the unbearable with dignity and grace. , And I carry a legacy to continue healing the trauma from my ancestral line the trauma and justice. And that’s informs a lot of the work that I do around conflict transformation and restorative justice.   [00:03:19] Miko Lee: Thank you so much. And Tati, what about you? Who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?    [00:03:25] Tatiana Chaterji: Thank you for the question, Miko. The first thing that comes to mind, my people are the people we’re, we’re, we’re coming up on the cusp of a possible teacher strike, and I’m thinking about workers and the labor, movement and comrades in my life from doing work as a classified school worker for about a decade.   [00:03:46] Then my people are also from, my homelands. The two that I feel very close to me are in Finland, from my mom’s side, and then in Bengal, both India, west Bengal, and Bangladesh. And my people are also those who are facing facing the worst moments of their life, either from causing harm or experiencing harm as a survivor of violence.   [00:04:08] I think about this a lot and I think about also the smaller conflicts and tensions and issues that bubble up all the time. So my people are those that are not afraid to make it better, you know, to make it right. And I carry, oh gosh, what legacy do I. I wanna say first kind of the legacy of the Oakland RJ movement that really nurtured me and the youth that I’ve encountered in schools and in detention on the streets in the community.   [00:04:39] Youth who are young adults and becoming bigger, older adults and, and, and also elders. To me. So sort of that’s whose legacy I carry in shaping the. Society that we all deserve.    [00:04:52] Miko Lee: Thank you both for answering with such a rich, well thought out response that’s very expansive and worldly. I appreciate that. Ellie, I think it was two years ago that you reached out to me and said, I’m thinking about doing this thing with Asian American Pacific Islanders around restorative justice and you’re working on a project with Asian Law Caucus. Can you like roll us back in time about how that got inspired, how you started and where we’re at right now?   [00:05:22] Elli Nagai-Rothe: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I’d forgotten that we, I had reached out to you at the early stages of this miko. The idea for this emerged in the context of conversations I was having with Asian Law Caucus around, anti-Asian violence and restorative justice. There was an enthusiasm for restorative justice as a pathway toward healing for AAPI communities. One of the things that kept coming up in those conversations was this assumption that there are no, or very few Asian restorative justice practitioners. And I kept thinking this, that’s not true. There are a lot, plenty of Asian practitioners. And I think that for me reflects the larger context that we’re living in the US where Asians are both at the same time, like hyper visible, , right. In terms of some of the violence that was happening. If you roll back several years ago I mean it’s still happening now, but certainly was, was at the height several years ago. So like hyper visible around that, but also in terms of like my model minority status, but also at the same time like invisibilized. So that strange paradox. And so my part of that was thinking about, well, what, what opportunities exist here, right? How can we actually bring together the restorative justice, Asian restorative justice practitioners in the Bay Area to be like regionally focused to come together to talk about how do we bring our identities into more fully into our work, , to build community with each other, and then also to build this pathway for new, for emergent practitioners to join us in this work. That’s a little bit of the background of how it came to be, and I’d love Tati to speak more to some of that context too.   [00:07:00] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah, thanks Ellie. Definitely thinking about work that I was doing in Chinatown and San Francisco. I was working with Chinese Progressive Association just before actually Asian Law Caucus reached out to us with this idea. I wanna shout out Lewa and Cheyenne Chen Le Wu, who are really envisioning an alternative process for their the members of this organization who are immigrant monolingual Cantonese speakers and, and working class immigrants. What are the options available to them to respond to harm and violence in any, any number of ways? And one of the things that we really saw.   [00:07:37] Miko Lee: Non carceral, right? Non carceral options to violence and harm, right?    [00:07:42] Tatiana Chaterji: Yes, exactly. That’s exactly what we were thinking of is, and in the period of time where people are talking about anti-Asian hate, they’re talking about hate crimes and violence against Asian Americans, there’s a simultaneous rhetoric and a belief that Asian people love police or want police interventions or actually believe al punishment. And no doubt that can be true for, for some of our community, but it is not the overwhelmingly dominant truth is what I would say. What I would say, and that actually by believing that Asian folks loved the police was its own bizarre and very toxic racial stereotyping that. Very vulnerable communities who are non-English speakers and living un under wage exploitation and other conditions.   [00:08:34] And so what we were doing was looking at what are the ways that we think about justice and the right way to respond to things and our relational ecosystems. And we began with messages from our home and family dynamics and kind of went outwards and, and everything was presented in Cantonese. I’m not a Cantonese speaker. I was working closely with those two women I mentioned and many others to think about. What is. Not just the, the linguistic translation of these concepts, but what is the cultural meaning and what applies or what can be sort of furthered in that context. And there were some very inspiring stories at the time of violence across communities in the city, and particularly between the Chinese community and the African American community and leaders in those spaces working together and calling forth the abolitionist dreams that were kind of already there.   [00:09:28] That people just want this kind of harm or violence not to happen. They don’t want it to happen to anyone again. And this is some thing I think about a lot as a survivor, that that is the dominant feeling is like we, you know, vengeance are not desires for some sort of punishment or not, that this should not happen again. And what can we do to prevent that and really care for the healing that needs to happen.    [00:09:53] Miko Lee: I appreciate you bringing up this solidarity between the African American and, and specifically Chinese American communities wanting a more abolitionist approach. We don’t hear that very much in mainstream media. Usually it’s pitted the Asian against black folks. Especially around the anti-Asian hate. We know that the majority of the hate crimes, violence against Asian folks were perpetrated by white folks. That’s what the data shows, but the media showed it was mostly African American folks. So I really appreciate lifting that part up. So take us from that journey of doing that work with a Chinese progressive association, powerful work, translating that also from, you know, your English to Chinese cultural situations to this network that you all helped to develop the A API Restorative Justice Network, how did that come about?   [00:10:45] Tatiana Chaterji: Part of the origin story is, is work that had been happening across the Bay Area. I was speaking about what’s happening in Chinatown. There’s also this coalition of community safety and justice that really has been diving into these questions of non carceral response to harm and violence. Then on the other side of the bay in Oakland, the Asian Pacific Environmental Network has been working with Restore Oakland to sit with survivors of crime and build up skills around circle keeping and response. So that’s just a little bit of this beautiful ecosystem that we are emerging out of. It almost felt like a natural extension to go here, you know, with a pen and restore Oakland. They were thinking a lot about interpretation and language justice. And so this is also just pulling these threads together for more robust future and practice.    [00:11:41] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for making those connections. We’ll put a link in our show notes because we did a recent episode on the Coalition for Community Safety and Justice, and particularly the collective Knowledge based catalog, which captures all these different lessons. So I think what you’re pointing out is that all these different groups are coming together, Asian American focus groups to, Pacific Islander focus groups to be able to find, alternatives to the Carceral system in an approach to justice.    [00:12:08] Elli Nagai-Rothe: Well, so it came about through lots of conversations, lots of collaborations I feel so, honored to be able to collaborate with Tati in this work. And other folks who were, , partnering alongside the Asian Law Caucus in this larger grant that was being offered to address anti-Asian hate and violence. Ultimately through many conversations, just wanting to create a space that was created for and by Asian restorative justice practitioners. And as far as we know, it’s the only. Gathering or, or network if it’s kind in the Bay Area, maybe in the nation. Somebody who’s listening maybe can chime in if that’s true, that’s not true. But as far as we know, that’s the only space that’s like this. And part of what we’ve wanted to create is certainly first and foremost because this is so much of the work of restorative justice, at least for us, is about relationships. At the end of the day, it’s how we relate to each other and thinking of, of different ways than is often modeled in mainstream world about how we relate to each other.   [00:13:11] We wanted to start with those relationships and so. We created space for current practitioners in the Bay Area to come together. And we had a series of both in-person and virtual conversations. And really it was a space to offer to really build this sense of community and these relationships to share our knowledge with each other, to offer really deep peer support. And specifically we were really interested in bringing and weaving more of our cultural and ancestral ways of being into our practice of restorative justice. And so what does that look like? Can we bring more of those parts of ourselves into our work, our lived experiences into our work, and how we address and hold conflict and harm. I’ll speak for myself, such a nourishing space to be part of with other practitioners. Just really allowing more of like a holistic sense of ourselves into our work. And what all the things that could that have come from that. So we’ve been continuing to meet, so what has this been like two years now? [00:14:12] Almost? We had, in addition to the existing practitioners who were based in the Bay Area, we held a training for like an introduction to restorative justice training that built on the things we were thinking about and learning about with each other around our Asian identities. And that was for folks who were kind of in an adjacent field, social workers, therapists, educators, folks who are doing work with API community workers. And so then we train them up and then they join this net, this larger network. And we’ve continued to have conversations every month, in a community of practice space. For me, such a wonderful space to be able to connect, to continue, explore together how we can bring more of ourselves into our work in a more relational, integrated and holistic way.   [00:14:56] Miko Lee: Thanks so much for that overview. I wanna go into it a little bit more, but I wanna roll us back for a moment. And Tati, I’d love if you could share with our audience what is restorative justice and what does a restorative justice practitioner do.    [00:15:08] Tatiana Chaterji: The big one. Okay. I think of restorative justice as an alternative to criminal and punitive responses to harm and wrongdoing. I think that’s where the definition really comes to life. Although people who are in the field will say that actually it’s before the harm or wrongdoing happens, and that it’s about cultural norms and practices of caring for each other in a communal way, having each other’s back relying on relationships, which also includes effective communication and compassionate communication. So Restorative justice in how I’ve learned it in the, in the Oakland community was, a lot of the practices were carried by a European Canadian woman named Kay PRUs, who’s one of my teachers and who had also, studied with first Nations people in Canada that ish and klingit people, and that there’s been some controversy over how she carried those teachings and that there’s native people on all sides who have sort of taken a stand.   [00:16:12] I wanna name, this controversy because it feels important to talk about cultural appropriation, cultural survival, that circle practice and how circle is done in many restorative justice spaces will feel very foreign to a person who is indigenous, who perhaps has these ancestral practices in their own lineage, their own history and family. And this is because of colonialism and, and erasure and displacement, and. Reckoning with all of this as immigrants who are on native land, you know, from all, most of us in the API RJ network. Just what, what is this? What, how do we grapple with this? You know, how do we do an appropriate recognition of practices and traditions and how do we build and think about interconnection or the inherent and intuitive knowledge that we have to do non-car work, which is at the core, I’ve sort of expanded off of your prompt, but an RJ practitioner is someone who holds space for for these conversations, kind of when things are the hardest, when there is heartbreak and betrayal and harm or conflict and also what, the work of setting conditions for that not to happen or for the way that we move through those difficulties to go as best as possible.    [00:17:43] Miko Lee: Thank you for expanding on that. I’m wondering if Ellie, you could add to that about like what is a circle practice, what does that look like?   [00:17:51] Elli Nagai-Rothe: A circle practice. It can look like a lot of different things, but ultimately it’s being in a circle, and being able to connect with each other. Again, I talked about how relationships are at the core. That might be when we’re, when we’re in circling together, we are relating to each other. We’re telling our stories. We’re weaving our stories together that might be happening when there’s no conflict and when there’s no harm. In fact, ideally that’s happening all the time, that we’re being able to gather together, to share stories, to be known by each other and so that if and when conflict does occur, we know how to, how to connect and how to come back to each other because the relationships matter. We know. Okay. ’cause conflict will happen. We will, we are gonna hurt each other. We’re humans. That’s part of being human. We’re gonna mess up and make mistakes. And so a prac having a practice to come back together to say, well, what, what can we do to repair this? How can we make this right, as Tati was saying? [00:18:46] And, and so then circling, be circling up and having a circle practice can also mean when there is conflict, when harm has happened, how can we have people be able to hear one another, to understand what’s happening and to repair as much as possible. Um, while doing that again in the ecosystem of relationships. So sometimes that’s happening with a, a couple folks and sometimes that’s happening with a whole community or a whole group of people.   [00:19:10] Ayame Keane-Lee We’re going to take a quick pause from the interview and listen to Tatiana recite an excerpt from the A API RJ Network Reflection document.   [00:19:18] Tatiana Chaterji: Mirrors of each other. To prepare for our closing ritual, I pull a small table with a candle and incense from the back room into the circle. This is our last in-person gathering, and we want to end with building a collective altar for the future of RJ that is rooted in the wisdom of our Asian cultural lineages.Please think of an offering to make this vision a reality. I explain that we use our imaginations to sculpt the air in front of us, shaping it into the essence of the offering. As I have done in prison with incarcerated artists who create textures and depth of story without material props, supplies, or the frills of theater production on the outside.   [00:20:01] I volunteered to go first and model how this is done. Standing and walking towards the altar. I bring my fingers to the center of my chest and pinch an imaginary ball of thread. I want to deepen my understanding of Bengali peacemaking and justice traditions. I say pulling the thread in a vertical motion, stretching up and down to create a cord of groundedness. Realizing there are actually many dimensions. I also pull the thread forwards and backwards in a lateral direction, saying this means looking to the past and dreaming the future. I hold this grided net, gather it around my body and ceremoniously place it on the altar. Others echo the desire for bringing forward parts of their Asian lineage that aren’t accessible to them. People create shapes with their bodies, making offerings to the altar that symbolize taking up space, staying grounded in a world that is shaky, reciprocity with the earth, ancestors and descendants, bringing in more ancestors permission to create and play forgiveness to self and others. Timelessness with Earth as a mirror and patience.   [00:21:14] Sujatha closes her eyes and forms an image for us through stream of consciousness. She says, I see indra’s net infinite with shimmering diamonds. At each point, I notice the goosebumps raise on the skin of my arms as she continues it is as if she has reached inside of me pulling from the sutra of ra, which was part of my childhood. It is a piece of scripture and a spiritual concept that deeply grounds my practice in RJ as an adult. I see her hands, which she has raised, and fingers trembling, glimmering ever so slightly. She speaks slowly carrying us with her in a visualization de drops, mirrors. I cannot be who I am meant to be unless you are who you are meant to be. RJ is the material of the web. This was a rare moment of belonging for me, as I seamlessly reflected in the speech and cultural symbols of a peer seamless. This integration as South Asian and as an RJ practitioner, seamless, being able to hang onto a reference from religious traditions that are hidden in the diaspora or distorted by mainstream social messaging.   [00:22:28] Ayame Keane-Lee We hope you enjoyed that look into the AAPI RJ Network Reflection. Let’s get back to the interview.   [00:22:35] Miko Lee: Can you each share what brought you to this work personally?   [00:22:40] Tatiana Chaterji: Sure. As a young activist involved in Insight Women of Color against Violence and aware of the work of Critical Resistance, and I had a pretty clear politics of abolition, but I didn’t. Really think that it impacted me as personally as it did when I was in my early twenties and I suffered a brain injury from a vehicular assault, a hit and run that may have been gang affiliated or, a case of mistaken identity. My recovery is, is, is complicated. My journey through various kinds of disabilities has shaped me. But I think the way that I was treated by the police and by the justice quote unquote justice system, which I now call the criminal legal system, it because there was no justice. I sort of don’t believe that justice is served in the ways that survivors need. yeah, I really, I got very close to the heart of what an RJ process can do and what RJ really is. I got introduced to Sonya Shah and the work of Suha bga and I was able to do a surrogate victim offender dialogue and then later to facilitate these processes where people are kind of meeting at the, at the hardest point of their lives and connecting across immense suffering and layers of systemic and interpersonal internalized oppression. [00:23:59] Just so much stuff and what happens when you can cross over into a shared humanity and recognition. It’s just, it’s just so profound and and from that space of healing and, and, and compassion, I’ve been able to think about. Other ways that RJ can look and have sort of been an advan, what is it evangelical for it? You know, I think that because we don’t see these options, I, I, because I knew people, I was able to connect in this way and I would just shout out David uim, who’s the one who told me that even if I didn’t know the person who harmed me, that this was possible. People so often give up, they’re just like, well, I have to feel this way. I have to just deal with it. Swallow the injustice and the lack of recognition. Just sort of keep going. Grit your teeth. I think we don’t have enough knowledge of what’s possible and so we harden ourselves to that. Yeah, I’ll stop there. Thanks for listening.    [00:24:59] Miko Lee: Oh, that’s the gaman that Ellie was talking about, right? In Chinese we say swallow the bitter. Right. To be able to just like keep going, keep moving. And I think so much of us have been programmed to just something horrible happens. You just swallow it, you bite it down, you don’t deal with it and you move on. Which is really what RJ is trying to teach us not to do, to recognize it, to to talk to it, to speak to it, to address it so that we could heal. Ellie, what about you? How did you get involved?    [00:25:30] Elli Nagai-Rothe: Yeah. And Tati, thanks so much for sharing. I always appreciate hearing. I like your story and what draws you to this work is so powerful. For me, I’ll take it a little bit more meta further back. What draws me to this work is my family history. I’m multiracial. My family, my ancestry comes from many different places. And part of that my grandparents, my aunties, uncles, Japanese Americans who were, who were born, some of them, my grandpa, and his family here in Oakland, in this area. And, um, other my grand, my grandmother and her family in Southern California. During World War II, were unjustly incarcerated along with 125,000 Japanese Americans in ways that were so deeply harmful and traumatic and are so parallel to what is happening right now to so many communities who are being detained and deported. And that experience has deeply, deeply impacted certainly my community’s experience, but my family’s experience of trauma.   [00:26:30] And I’m yonsei, fourth generation Japanese American. And though I wasn’t directly involved or impacted by that incarceration, I feel it very viscerally in my body, that feeling of loss, of disconnection of, of severance from community, from family, from place, and, . Even before I knew what restorative justice was, I was in my body striving to find justice for these things that have happened? That drew me into conflict transformation work and ultimately restorative justice work. And that’s where I found really at the, at the core, so much of this, this intuitively feels right to me. I didn’t wanna have a place of, I wanted to heal. That was what I wanted to feel the feeling of, can we heal and repair and can I heal and repair what’s happened in this, my experience and my family’s experience and community’s experiences?   [00:27:23] That work ultimately led me to do restorative justice work here in the Bay Area. I started doing that work with schools and community organizations. And so I really hold the bigger possibilities of what’s possible when we think differently about how we hold relationships and how we hold deep, deep pain and harm and what’s possible when we can envision a different kind of, a world, a different kind of community where we can take accountability for things that have happened. And knowing that all of us at, at different places, I know that’s true in my family line, have caused harm and also experienced harm, that those things can happen at the same time. And so how can we have a sense of humanity for what’s possible when we actually come, come to each other with a humility of what, how can we heal? How can we heal this together? How can we make this as right as possible? So that’s, that’s a bit of my story.    [00:28:13] Miko Lee: Thank you both for sharing.   [00:28:15] Ayame Keane-Lee Next we’re going to take a music break and listen to Miya Folick “Talking with Strangers”   MUSIC   [00:34:05] that was “Talking with Strangers” by Miya Folick   [00:34:09] Miko Lee: I’m wondering, I know this, Asian American, Pacific Islander, RJ Circle, a bunch of it has been online just because this is how we do in these times and I’m wondering if there’s something unique and empowering about doing this online. I bring that up because there have been many in person gatherings. I’ve been a part of this circle, so I’m really happy to be a part of it. For me, the vibe of being in person where we’re sharing a meal together, we’re in a circle, holding onto objects, making art together is very different from being online. And I’m wondering, if there’s something uniquely positive about being online?   [00:34:47] Tatiana Chaterji: I would just say that yeah, the intimacy and the warmth and the sort of the strength of the bonds that we have in this network are, are so beautiful and it’s possible to have incredible, virtual experiences together. A lot of us do movement art or theater or creative. We have creative practices of our own. And when we lead each other in those exercises, we are really just a feeling of togetherness. Like that’s so special. And for people who have had that online, they know what I’m talking about. That can be really, really incredible. And, you know, we’ve been in the Bay Area and really in Oakland, but we want to expand or we want to think about what are all the ways that we can connect with other people. Around this intersection of API identity and RJ practice. And so that’s the potential, I guess is what I would say is just to really, move across time and space that way.   [00:35:47] Miko Lee: Ellie, do you have thoughts on this, the online versus in real life?    [00:35:51] Elli Nagai-Rothe: I think there’s so many wonderful things about being in person because I feel like so much, at least I don’t know about your worlds, but my world, so much of it is online these days on Zoom. There is something really special about coming together, like you said, to share a meal to be in each other’s physical presence and to interact in that way. At the same time when we’re online, there’s still so much warmth and connection and intimacy that comes from these relationships that I’ve been building over now, like two years for some of us. The opportunities are more about being able to reach accessibility, right? Folks to be able to come online and, and potentially even broaden. I mean, who knows what that will look like right now it’s regionally focused, but maybe there’s a future in which that happens to be outside the Bay Area.   [00:36:31] Miko Lee: And speaking of the future and where it’s going. This initially started by, funding from one of the Stop the Hate grants, which sadly has concluded in the state of California. I’m wondering what this means for this, process that it doesn’t have any set funding anymore what does the future look like?    [00:36:52] Elli Nagai-Rothe: We really wanna continue this miko and being able to continue to meet and gather in community. Right now we’re continuing to meet monthly in our community of practice space to support each other and to continue to explore really this intersection, right, of restorative justice in our idea, our Asian identities. There’s so much more opportunity to continue to build together, to create a larger community and base of folks who are exploring and ex doing this work together. Also for the intention of what does that mean for our communities? How can we find ways to take this practice that many of us do, right?   [00:37:27] As practitioners, how can we translate that to our community so that we know, we know at its core that this work, there are things from our cultural practices that are just. So familiar, right? Certain practices around how we you know, this radical, some of the things we talked about, radical acts of hospitality and care are so intuitive to our Asian communities. How can we translate that practice in our work so that we can continue to make this these pathways available to our community? So we hope to continue, we wanna continue to gather, we wanted to continue to build, um, and make space for more people to join us in this exploration and this opportunity for yeah, more expansion of what’s possible for our communities.   [00:38:11] Miko Lee: For me as somebody who’s Chinese American and being a part of this network, I’ve learned from other Asian American cultures about some of the practices, well, I did know about things like tsuru folding a paper crane as part of the Japanese American culture, learning different things from different community members about elements that are part of their cultures and how they incorporate that, whether that’s yoga or a type of, Filipino martial art or a type of Buddhist practice. And how they fit that into their RJ work has actually helped me kind of expand my mind and made me think about more ways that I could bring in my own Chinese American culture. So for me, that was one of those things that was like a blessing. I’m wondering what each of you has learned personally about yourself from being part of this network.   [00:39:02] Tatiana Chaterji: What comes to mind is the permission to integrate cultural identity and practice more explicitly and to know that there are others who are similarly doing that. It’s sort of this, this acceptance of sort of what I know and how I know it that can be special. You know, in the, in the similar way that I mentioned about cultural appropriation and the violence that various communities have felt under capitalism and white supremacist structures. Everything there is, there is, I don’t, something, something so magical to just step outside of that and be like, this is, it’s a mess. It’s a mess out there. We are constantly battling it. How do we actually not make ourselves smaller right here?    [00:39:50] Miko Lee: I totally hear that. And I’m thinking back to this gathering we had at Canticle Farms, where I think Tati, you said, when was the last time you were in a space where you were the only Asian person and how you walk through that mostly white space and what is that like for you and how do you navigate? And so many people in the room are like, what their minds were blown. For me, I’m in mostly Asian American spaces and Pacific Islander spaces, so I’m like, oh wow, that wasn’t always true for me. So that’s my time in my life right now. So it was really fascinating to kind of ponder that.   [00:40:24] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah. And I think many of us, I’m so glad that you feel that because many of us, don’t really know what exactly our ancestral technologies might be, or even what to name. This gave us, again, permission to look back or to reframe what we know or that we’ve understood from community as being from various traditions, homelands, you know, longer legacies that we’re carrying and just to, to, to, to celebrate that or to even begin to, to, to bring language to that and feel a place of our own belonging. Whereas, I mean, as a South Asian diasporic member of the diaspora, I see so many the words that are coming from Sanskrit, which has its own, history of castes violence and like sort of what the expansion and the co-optation is, is, is really quite massive to the point where I feel like I’m on the outside and I don’t believe that I should own it any more than anyone else. But I think if there’s a way that it’s practiced that is in, in, in integrity and less commodified because it is ancient, because it is medicine. You know, that I, I deserve to feel that, you know, and to tend to be welcomed into it in, in this you know, outside of the homeland to be here in Asian America or whatever it is, and to claim it is something quite special.   [00:41:50] Miko Lee: Love that. Thank you for sharing. Ellie, what about you? What have you learned from being in part of this network?    [00:41:55] Elli Nagai-Rothe: I was just gonna say like, yes, Tati to all the things you just said. So appreciate that. I, it’s very similar, similar in some ways to what Tati was saying, like the, the permission giving, the space that we, oh, permission giving that we give to each other, to to claim, like, to claim and reclaim these practices. And I think that’s what I heard so often from people in this network and continue to hear that this, the time, our time together and the things that we’re doing. Feel like it’s, it doesn’t feel like a so much about like our, what is our professional practice. And I say professional with quotes. It’s more of like, how do we integrate this part, this really profound journey of ancestral reclaiming, of remembering, of healing. And, and when we do that, we’re working from this really. A deep place of relationship, of interdependence, of where we’re like, our identity and our sense of who we are is so connected to our communities. It’s connected to the natural world. And so like how can we, that’s part of what I’ve appreciated is like really in this deep way, how can we remember and reconnect to, in some cases, like practices, pre-colonial practices and wisdom that was suppressed or taken away, certainly in my and family experience, right?   [00:43:11] It was very deliberately state sponsored violence severed those practices. And so some of this reclaiming as a part of my own healing has been really given me more voice and space to say like, yeah, I can, I can, I want to, and I, that’s part of my own practice, but also share that with the, the groups that I’m part of. And that feels a little bit. We talked about that a little bit in the network of how do we share these practices in ways that feel authentic, like Tati said, with integrity, but also what does that mean to share these practices in spaces that are outside of, you know, Asian communities? I don’t know, like that’s a whole other conversation, right? It feels because there is so much cultural co-opting that’s happening, right? And so I feel, I think that’s why this network is so valuable and, and helpful to be in a space. Of course, it’s a very diverse group of Asian identities and yet it’s a space where we can feel like we can try on in these practices to see what that feels like in our bodies in ways that feel really like, have a lot of integrity and a lot of authenticity and to support each other in that.   [00:44:12] And so that we can feel able to then share that in spaces than, in our communities and the work that we’re doing in terms of, restorative justice work.  [00:44:19] Miko Lee: So how can our audience find out more about these circles if they wanna learn more about how they could potentially get involved?   [00:44:29] Elli Nagai-Rothe: The best way to go is to look at the Ripple Collective website, ripple collective.org. We have some information about, the A API Restorative Justice Network there. I’m hoping that we can continue this. I really am excited about, members of the network continuing to stay in relationship with each other, to support each other. Tati and I are gonna be offering a session at the upcoming national Association for Community and Restorative Justice Conference that’s happening in New Orleans in July. We’re gonna be sharing what we learned about our experiences with this network and centering our Asian identities and restorative justice practice. We’re gonna be holding a a caucus space for Asian practitioners to come and join us. Yeah, so what else? Tati.    [00:45:14] Tatiana Chaterji: We’re also compiling reflections from various participants in the network around what this has meant. What, what have they learned or discovered, and what’s to come. I think a question that I’ve had, a question that we’ve been stewing on with other South Asian, , practitioners is what does you know, what does caste how does caste show up and reckoning with harm doing? And our communities are not a monolith, and, and as we are treated as part of a, sort of like a brown solidarity, third world movement space in the West, there’s just a lot of unrecognized and unnamed oppression that is actively happening. So, you know, really like being, being brave and humble to, to, to talk about that.    [00:46:01] Miko Lee: Thank you both so much for sharing your time with me today.    [00:46:05] Elli Nagai-Rothe: Thanks so much, Miko.    [00:46:06] Tatiana Chaterji: Thanks, Miko.   [00:46:07] Ayame Keane-LeeTo finish off our show tonight, we’ll be listening to “Directions” by Hāwane.   MUSIC   [00:49:55] That was “Directions” by Hāwane.   [00:49:57] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for listening tonight. Remember to reconnect to your ancestral technologies and hold in the power of tenderness. To find out more about restorative justice and the work of our guests, check out info about the A API RJ network on the Ripple website, ripple collective.org, and about the conference that Ellie and Tati will be presenting at at the NAC RJ Conference in New Orleans, both of which we’ll have linked in our show notes.   [00:50:30] Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apex Express to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane- Lee. Have a great night.   The post APEX Express – 3.12.26- Feed Your Heart appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 2.12.26 – Anti-Pacific Islander Hate Amid Ongoing Injustice 12.02.2026 59мин

  APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. On this episode, the Stop AAPI Hate Pacific Islander Advisory Council discuss a new report on anti–Pacific Islander hate. They examine the documented impacts of hate, structural barriers Pacific Islander communities face in reporting and accessing support, and the long-standing traditions of resistance and community care within PI communities.   Important Links: Stop AAPI Hate Stop AAPI Hate Anti-Pacific Islander Hate Report If you have questions related to the report, please feel free to contact Stop AAPI Hate Research Manager Connie Tan at ctan@stopaapihate.org Community Calendar: Upcoming Lunar New Year Events Saturday, February 14 – Sunday, February 15 – Chinatown Flower Market Fair, Grant Avenue (fresh flowers, arts activities, cultural performances) Tuesday, February 24 – Drumbeats, Heartbeats: Community as One, San Francisco Public Library (Lunar New Year and Black History Month celebration) Saturday, February 28 – Oakland Lunar New Year Parade, Jackson Street Saturday, March 7 – Year of the Horse Parade, San Francisco Throughout the season – Additional Lunar New Year events, including parades, night markets, and museum programs across the Bay Area and beyond. Transcript: [00:00:00]  Miata Tan: Hello and welcome. You are tuning in to Apex Express, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host, Miata Tan and tonight we’re examining community realities that often go under reported. The term A API, meaning Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders is an [00:01:00] acronym we like to use a lot, but Pacific Islander peoples, their histories and their challenges are sometimes mischaracterized or not spoken about at all. Stop A API Hate is a national coalition that tracks and responds to the hate experience by A API communities through reporting, research and advocacy. They’ve released a new report showing that nearly half of Pacific Islander adults experienced an act of hate in 2024 because of their race, ethnicity, or nationality. Tonight we’ll share conversations from a recent virtual community briefing about the report and dive into its findings and the legacy of discrimination experienced by Pacific Islanders. Isa Kelawili Whalen: I think it doesn’t really help that our history of violence between Pacific Islander Land and Sea and the United States, it already leaves a sour taste in your mouth. When we Pacifica. Think [00:02:00] about participating in American society and then to top it off, there’s little to no representation of Pacific Islanders. Miata Tan: That was the voice of Isa Kelawili Whalen, Executive Director at API Advocates and a member of Stop, A API hates Pacific Islander Advisory Council. You’ll hear more from Isa and the other members of the advisory council soon. But first up is Cynthia Choi, the co-founder of Stop, A API, Hate and co-Executive Director of Chinese for affirmative action. Cynthia will help to ground us in the history of the organization and their hopes for this new report about Pacific Islander communities. Cynthia Choi: As many of you know, Stop API Hate was launched nearly six years ago in response to anti-Asian hate during COVID-19 pandemic. And since then we’ve operated as the [00:03:00] nation’s largest reporting center tracking anti A. PI Hate Acts while working to advance justice and equity for our communities. In addition to policy advocacy, community care and narrative work, research has really been Central to our mission because data, when grounded in community experience helps tell a fuller and more honest story about the harms our communities face. Over the years, through listening sessions and necessary and hard conversations with our PI community members and leaders, we’ve heard a consistent. An important message. Pacific Islander experiences are often rendered invisible when grouped under the broader A API umbrella and the forms of hate they experience are shaped by distinct histories, ongoing injustice, and unique cultural and political [00:04:00] context. This report is in response to this truth and to the trust Pacific Islander communities have placed in sharing their experience. Conducted in partnership with NORC at the University of Chicago, along with stories from our reporting center. we believe these findings shed light on the prevalence of hate, the multifaceted impact of hate and how often harm goes unreported. Our hope is that this report sparks deeper dialogue and more meaningful actions to address anti pi hate. We are especially grateful to the Pacific Islander leaders who have guided this work from the beginning. Earlier this year, uh, Stop API hate convened Pacific Islander Advisory Council made up of four incredible leaders, Dr. Jamaica Osorio Tu‘ulau‘ulu Estella Owoimaha Church, Michelle Pedro, and Isa Whalen. Their leadership, wisdom [00:05:00] and care have been essential in shaping both our research and narrative work. Our shared goal is to build trust with Pacific Islander communities and to ensure that our work is authentic, inclusive, and truly reflective of lived experiences. These insights were critical in helping us interpret these findings with the depth and context they deserve.  Miata Tan: That was Cynthia Choi, the co-founder of Stop, A API, hate and co-Executive Director of Chinese for affirmative action. As Cynthia mentioned to collect data for this report, Stop A API Hate worked with NORC, a non-partisan research organization at the University of Chicago. In January, 2025, Stop A API. Hate and norc conducted a national survey that included 504 Pacific Islander respondents. The survey [00:06:00] examined the scope of anti Pacific Islander hate in 2024, the challenges of reporting and accessing support and participation in resistance and ongoing organizing efforts. We’ll be sharing a link to the full report in our show notes at kpfa.org/program/apex-express. We also just heard Cynthia give thanks to the efforts of the Stop A API hate Pacific Islander Advisory Council. this council is a team of four Pacific Islander folks with a range of professional and community expertise who helped Stop A API hate to unpack and contextualize their new report. Tonight we’ll hear from all four members of the PI Council. First up is Dr. Jamaica Osorio, a Kanaka Maoli wahine artist activist, and an Associate Professor of Indigenous and native Hawaiian politics [00:07:00] at the University of Hawaiʻi at Mānoa . Here’s Dr. Jamaica, reflecting on her initial reaction to the report and what she sees going on in her community. Dr. Jamaica Heolimeleikalani Osorio: Aloha kākou. Thank you for having us today. I think the biggest thing that stood out to me in the data and the reporting that I haven’t really been able to shake from my head, and I think it’s related to something we’re seeing a lot in our own community, was the high levels of stress and anxiety that folks in our community were experiencing and how those high levels were almost, they didn’t really change based on whether or not people had experienced hate. Our communities are living, um, at a threshold, a high threshold of stress and anxiety, um, and struggling with a number of mental health, issues because of that. And I think this is an important reminder in relationship to the broader work we might be doing, to be thinking about Stopping hate acts against folks in our community and in other communities, but really to think about what are the [00:08:00] conditions that people are living under that make it nearly unlivable for our communities to survive in this place. Uh, the, the other thing that popped out to me that I wanna highlight is the data around folks feeling less welcome. How hate acts made certain folks in our community feel less welcome where they’re living. And I kind of wanna. Us to think more about the tension between being unwelcomed in the so-called United States, and the tension of the inability for many of our people to return home, uh, if they would’ve preferred to actually be in our ancestral homes. And what are. How are those conditions created by American Empire and militarism and nuclearization, kind of the stuff that we talked about as a panel early on but also as we move away from today’s conversation thinking about like what is. The place of PIs in the so-called United States. Uh, what does it mean to be able to live in your ancestral homeland like myself, where America has come to us, and chosen to stay? What does it mean for our other PI family members who have [00:09:00] come to the United States? Because our homes have been devastated by us militarism and imperialism. That’s what’s sitting with me that I think may not. Immediately jump out of the reporting, but we need to continue to highlight, uh, in how we interpret. Miata Tan: That was Dr. Jamaica Osorio, an Associate Professor of Indigenous and native Hawaiian politics at the University of Hawaiʻi at Māno a.  Now let’s turn to Isa Kelawili Whalen. Isa is the Executive Director of API Advocates and another member of the Stop A API hate Pacific Islander Advisory Council. Here Isa builds on what Dr. Jamaica was saying about feelings of stress and anxiety within the Pacific Islander communities. Okay. She also speaks from her experience as an Indigenous CHamoru and Filipino woman. Here’s Isa. Isa Kelawili Whalen: [00:10:00] American society and culture is drastically different from Pacifica Island and our culture, our roots, traditions, and so forth, as are many ethnicities and identities out there. But for us who are trying to figure out how to constantly navigate between the two, it’s a little polarizing. Trying to fit in into. American society, structure that was not made for us and definitely does not coincide from where we come from either. So it’s hard to navigate and we’re constantly felt, we feel like we’re excluded, um, that there is no space for us. There’s all these boxes, but we don’t really fit into one. And to be honest, none of these boxes are really made for anyone to fit into one single box the unspoken truth. And so. A lot of the times we’re too Indigenous or I’m too Pacifica, or I’m too American, even to our own families being called a coconut. A racial comment alluding to being one ethnicity on the inside versus the outside, and to that causes a lot of mental health harm, um, within ourselves, our [00:11:00] friends, our family, community, and understanding for one another. in addition to that. I think it doesn’t really help that our history of violence between Pacific Islander Land and Sea and the United States, it already leaves a sour taste in your mouth. When we Pacifica. Think about participating in American society and then to top it off, there’s little to no representation of Pacific Islanders, um, across. The largest platforms in the United States of America. It goes beyond just representation with civic engagement, um, and elected officials. This goes to like stem leadership positions in business to social media and entertainment. And when we are represented, it’s something of the past. We’re always connotated to something that’s dead, dying or old news. And. we’re also completely romanticized. This could look like Moana or even the movie Avatar. So I think the feeling of disconnected or unaccepted by American society at large is something that stood out to me in the [00:12:00] report and something I heavily resonate with as well. Miata Tan: That was Isa Kelawili Whalen, Executive Director at API Advocates and a member of the Stop A API hate Pacific Islander Advisory Council. As we heard from both Dr. Jamaica and Isa, the histories and impacts of hate against. Pacific Islander communities are complex and deeply rooted from ongoing US militarization to a lack of representation in popular culture. Before we hear from the two other members of the PI Advisory Council, let’s get on the same page. What are we talking about when we talk about hate? Connie Tan is a research manager at Stop, A API hate and a lead contributor to their recent report on anti Pacific Islander hate. Here she is defining Stop A API hate’s research framework for this project. [00:13:00]  Connie Tan: Our definition of hate is largely guided by how our communities define it through the reporting. So people have reported a wide range of hate acts that they perceive to be motivated by racial bias or prejudice. The vast majority of hate acts that our communities experience are not considered hate crimes. So there’s a real need to find solutions outside of policing in order to address the full range of hate Asian Americans and Pacific Islander experience. We use the term hate act as an umbrella term to encompass the various types of bias motivated events people experience, including hate crimes and hate incidents. And from the survey findings, we found that anti PI hate was prevalent. Nearly half or 47% of PI adults reported experiencing a hate act due to their race, ethnicity, or nationality in 2024. And harassment such as being called a racial slur was the most common type of hate. Another [00:14:00] 27% of PI adults reported institutional discrimination such as unfair treatment by an employer or at a business. Miata Tan: That was Connie Tan from Stop. A API hate providing context on how hate affects Pacific Islander communities. Now let’s return to the Pacific Islander Advisory Council who helped Stop A API hate to better understand their reporting on PI communities. The remaining two members of the council are Tu‘ulau‘ulu Estella Owoimaha- Church, a first generation Afro Pacifican educator, speaker and consultant. And we also have Michelle Pedro, who is a California born Marshallese American advocate, and the policy and communications director at Arkansas’s Coalition of the Marshallese. You’ll also hear the voice of Stephanie Chan, the Director of Data and [00:15:00] Research at Stop A API Hate who led this conversation with the PI Council. Alrighty. Here’s Esella reflecting on her key takeaways from the report and how she sees her community being impacted. Tu‘ulau‘ulu Estella Owoimaha-Church: A piece of data that stood out to me is the six out of 10 PIs who have experienced hate, noted that it was an intersectional experience, that there are multiple facets of their identities that impacted the ways they experienced hate. And in my experience as Afro Pacifican. Nigerian Samoan, born and raised in South Central Los Angeles on Tonga land. That’s very much been my experience, both in predominantly white spaces and predominantly API spaces as well. As an educator a piece of data that, that really stood out to me was around the rate at which. Pacific Islanders have to exit education. 20 years as a high school educator, public high school educator and college counselor. And that was [00:16:00] absolutely my experience when I made the choice to become an educator. And I moved back home from grad school, went back to my neighborhood and went to the school where I had assumed, because when I was little, this is where. My people were, were when I was growing up, I assumed that I would be able to, to put my degrees to use to serve other black PI kids. And it wasn’t the case. Students were not there. Whole populations of our folks were missing from the community. And as I continued to dig and figure out, or try to figure out why, it was very clear that at my school site in particular, Samoan, Tongan, and Fijian students who were there. We’re not being met where they are. Their parents weren’t being met where they are. They didn’t feel welcome. Coming into our schools, coming into our districts to receive services or ask for support it was very common that the only students who received support were our students who chose to play sports. Whereas as a theater and literature educator, I, I spent most of my time advocating for [00:17:00] block schedule. So that my students who I knew had, you know, church commitments after school, family commitments after school I needed to find ways to accommodate them. and I was alone in that fight, right? The entire district, the school the profession was not showing up for our students in the ways that they needed. Stephanie Chan: Thank you, Estella. Yeah, definitely common themes of, you know, what does belonging mean in our institutions, but also when the US comes to you, as Jamaica pointed out as well. Michelle, I’ll turn it over to you next.  Michelle Pedro: Lakwe and greetings everyone. , A few things that pointed out to me or stood out to me. Was, um, the mental health aspect mental health is such a, a big thing in our community we don’t like to talk about, especially in the Marshallese community. it’s just in recent years that our youth is talking about it more. And people from my generation are learning about mental health and what it is in this society versus back home. It is so different. [00:18:00] When people move from Marshall Islands to the United States, the whole entire system is different. The system was not built for people like us, for Marshallese, for Pacific Islanders. It really wasn’t. And so the entire structure needs to do more. I feel like it needs to do more. And the lack of education like Estella said. Back home. We have a lot of our folks move here who don’t graduate from past like third grade. So the literacy, rate here in Arkansas my friends that our teachers, they say it’s very low and I can only imagine what it is in the Marshallese community here. And. I hear stories from elders who have lived here for a while that in Arkansas it was a little bit scary living here because they did not feel welcome. They didn’t feel like it was a place that they could express themselves. A lot of my folks say that they’re tired of their race card,  but we [00:19:00] need to talk about race. We don’t know what internal racism is, or systemic racism is in my community. We need to be explaining it to our folks where they understand it and they see it and they recognize it to talk about it more. Miata Tan: That was Michelle Pedro, Policy and Communications Director at Arkansas Coalition of the Marshallese, and a member of the Stop, A API hate Pacific Islander Advisory Council. Michelle shared with us that hate against Pacific Islander communities affects educational outcomes leading to lower rates of literacy, school attendance, and graduation. As Esella noted, considering intersectionality can help us to see the full scope of these impacts. Here’s Connie Tan, a research manager at Stop, A API hate with some data on how PI communities are being targeted the toll this takes on their mental and physical [00:20:00] wellbeing. Connie Tan: And we saw that hate was intersectional. In addition to their race and ethnicity, over six, in 10 or 66% of PI adults said that other aspects of their identity were targeted. The top three identities targeted were for their age, class, and gender. And experiences with hate have a detrimental impact on the wellbeing of PI Individuals with more than half or about 58% of PI adults reporting negative effects on their mental or physical health. It also impacted their sense of safety and altered their behavior. So for example, it is evidenced through the disproportionate recruitment of PI people into the military. And athletic programs as a result, many are susceptible to traumatic brain injuries, chronic pain, and even post-traumatic stress disorder. Miata Tan: That was Connie Tan with Stop. A API Hate. You are tuned [00:21:00] into Apex Express, a weekly radio show, uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. You’ll hear more about Connie’s research and the analysis from the Stop. A API hate Pacific Islander Advisory Council. In a moment. Stay with us. [00:22:00] [00:23:00] [00:24:00] [00:25:00]  Miata Tan: That was us by Ruby Ibarra featuring Rocky Rivera, Klassy and Faith Santilla. You are tuned into Apex Express on 94.1 KPFA, A weekly radio show [00:26:00] uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host Miata Tan. Tonight we’re focused on our Pacific Islander communities and taking a closer look at a new report on anti Pacific Islander hate from the National Coalition, Stop A API hate. Before the break the Stop, A API, Pacific Islander Advisory Council shared how mental health challenges, experiences of hate and the effects of US militarization are all deeply interconnected in PI communities. Connie Tan, a research manager at Stop. A API Hate reflects on how a broader historical context helps to explain why Pacific Islanders experience such high rates of hate. Here’s Connie. Connie Tan: We conducted sensemaking sessions with our PI advisory council members, and what we learned is that anti PI hate must be understood [00:27:00] within a broader historical context rooted in colonialism. Militarization nuclear testing and forced displacement, and that these structural violence continue to shape PI people’s daily lives. And so some key examples include the US overthrow and occupation of Hawaii in the 18 hundreds that led to the loss of Hawaiian sovereignty and cultural suppression. In the 1940s, the US conducted almost 70 nuclear tests across the Marshall Islands that decimated the environment and subjected residents to long-term health problems and forced relocation to gain military dominance. The US established a compacts of free association in the 1980s that created a complex and inequitable framework of immigration status that left many PI communities with limited access to federal benefits. The COVID-19 pandemic exposed a disproportionate health impacts in PI communities due to the historical lack of disaggregated data, unequal access to health benefits, [00:28:00] and a lack of culturally responsive care. And most recently, there are proposed or already enacted US travel bans targeting different Pacific Island nations, continuing a legacy of exclusion. So when we speak of violence harm. Injustice related to anti P hate. It must be understood within this larger context. Miata Tan: That was Connie Tan at Stop. A API hate. Now let’s get back to the Pacific Islander Advisory Council who are helping us to better understand the findings from the recent report from Stop. A API hate focused on hate acts against the Pacific Islander communities. I will pass the reins over to Stephanie Chan. Stephanie’s the director of Data and Research at Stop A API Hate who led this recent conversation with the PI Advisory Council. Here’s Stephanie. [00:29:00]  Stephanie Chan: The big mental health challenges as well as the issues of acceptance and belonging and like what that all means. I, I think a lot of you spoke to this but let’s get deeper. What are some of the historical or cultural factors that shape how PI communities experience racism or hate today? Let’s start with Estella. Tu‘ulau‘ulu Estella Owoimaha-Church: Thank you for the question, Stephanie. A piece of data that, stood out to me, it was around the six outta 10 won’t report to formal authority agencies. And earlier it was mentioned that there’s a need For strategies outside policing. I think that, to everything that, Jamaica’s already stated and, and what’s been presented in the, the data why would we report, when the state itself has been harmful to us collectively. The other thing I can speak to in my experience is again, I’ll, I’ll say that an approach of intersectionality is, is a must because says this too in the report, more than [00:30:00] 57% of our communities identify as multiracial, multi-ethnic. And so in addition to. Who we are as Pacific Islander, right? Like many of us are also half Indigenous, half black, half Mexican, et cetera. List goes on. And there’s, there needs to be enough space for all of us, for the whole of us to be present in our communities and to, to do the work, whatever the work may be, whatever sector you’re in, whether health or education. Policy or in data. And intersectional approach is absolutely necessary to capture who we are as a whole. And the other, something else that was mentioned in the report was around misinformation and that being something that needs to be combated in particular today. Um, and I see this across several communities. The, AI videos are, are a bit outta control. Sort of silly, but still kind of serious. Example comes to mind, recent a very extensive conversation. I didn’t feel like having, uh, with, [00:31:00] with my uncles around whether or not Tupac is alive because AI videos Are doing a whole lot that they shouldn’t be doing. And it’s, it’s a goofy example, but an example nonetheless, many of our elders are using social media or on different platforms and the misinformation and disinformation is so loud, it’s difficult to continue to do our work. And educate, or in some cases reeducate. And make sure that, the needs of our community that is highlighted in this report are being adjusted. Stephanie Chan: Thank you. Yeah. And a whole new set of challenges with the technology we have today. Uh, Michelle, do you wanna speak to the historical and cultural factors that have shaped how PI communities experience racism today?  Michelle Pedro: Our experience is, it’s inseparable to the US nuclear legacy and just everything that Estella was saying, a standard outside of policing. Like why is the only solution incarceration or most of the solutions involve [00:32:00] incarceration. You know, if there’s other means of taking care of somebody we really need to get to the root causes, right? Instead of incarceration. And I feel like a lot of people use us, but not protect us. And the experiences that my people feel they’re going through now is, it’s just as similar than when we were going through it during COVID. I. Here in Arkansas. More than half of people that, uh, the death rates were Marshallese. And most of those people were my relatives. And so going to these funerals, I was just like, okay, how do I, how do I go to each funeral without, you know, if I get in contact to COVID with COVID without spreading that? And, you know, I think we’ve been conditioned for so long to feel ashamed, to feel less than. I feel like a lot of our, our folks are coming out of that and feeling like they can breathe again. But with the [00:33:00] recent administration and ice, it’s like, okay, now we have to step back into our shell. And we’re outsiders again, thankfully here in, uh, Northwest Arkansas, I think there’s a lot of people who. have empathy towards the Marshallese community and Pacific Islanders here. And they feel like we can, we feel like we can rely on our neighbors. Somebody’s death and, or a group of people’s deaths shouldn’t, be a reason why we, we come together. It should be a reason for, wanting to just be kind to each other. And like Estella said, we need to educate but also move past talks and actually going forward with policy changes and stuff like that. Stephanie Chan: Thank you Michelle. And yes, we’ll get to the policy changes in a second. I would love to hear. What all of our panelists think about what steps we need to take. Uh, Isa I’m gonna turn it over to you to talk about historical or cultural factors that shape how PI communities experience racism today.  Isa Kelawili Whalen: [00:34:00] Many, if not all, Pacific Islander families or communities that I know of or I’m a part of, we don’t wanna get in trouble. And what does that really mean? We don’t wanna be incarcerated by racially biased jurisdictions. Um, we don’t wanna be deported. We don’t want to be revoked of our citizenship for our rights or evicted or fired. All things that we deem at risk at all times. It’s always on the table whenever we engage with the American government. Even down to something as simple as filling out a census form. And so I think it’s important to know also that at the core of many of our Pacifica cultures, strengthening future generations is at the center. Every single time. I mean, with everything that our elders have carried, have fought for, have sacrificed for, to bring us to where we are today. It’s almost like if someone calls you a name or they give you a dirty look, or maybe even if they get physical with you on a sidewalk. Those are things we just swallow. ‘ cause you have to, there’s so much on the table so much at risk that we cannot afford to lose. [00:35:00] And unfortunately, majority of the times it’s at the cost of yourself. It is. That mistrust with everything that’s at risk with keeping ourselves, our families, and future generations. To continue being a part of this American society, it makes it really, really hard for us to navigate racism and hate in comparison to, I would say, other ethnic groups. Stephanie Chan: Definitely. And the mistrust in the government is not gonna get better in this context. It’s only gonna get worse. Jamaica, do you wanna speak to the question of the historical and cultural factors that shape how PI communities experience racism? Dr. Jamaica Heolimeleikalani Osorio: Absolutely. You know, without risking sounding like a broken record, I think one of the most meaningful things that many of us share across the Pacific is the violence of us. Uh, not just us, but in imperial militarization and nuclear testing. and I think it’s easy for folks. Outside of the Pacific to forget that that’s actually ongoing, right? That there are military occupations ongoing in Hawaii, in [00:36:00] Guam, in Okinawa, uh, that our people are being extracted out of their communities to serve in the US military in particular, out of Samoa, the highest per capita rate of folks being enlisted into the US on forces, which is insane. Um, so I don’t want that to go unnamed as something that is both historical. And ongoing and related to the kind of global US imperial violence that is taking place today that the Pacific is is this. Point of departure for so much of that ongoing imperial violence, which implicates us, our lands, our waters, and our peoples, and that as well. And that’s something that we have to reckon with within the overall context of, experiencing hate in and around the so-called United States. But I also wanna touch on, The issue of intersectionality around, um, experiencing hate in the PI community and, and in particular thinking about anti-blackness, both the PI community and towards the PI community. Uh, [00:37:00] and I Understanding the history of the way white supremacy has both been inflicted upon our people and in many cases internalized within our people. And how anti-blackness in particular has been used as a weapon from within our communities to each other while also experiencing it from the outside. Is something that is deeply, deeply impacting our people. I’m thinking both the, the personal, immediate experience of folks experiencing or practicing anti-blackness in our community. But I’m also thinking about the fact that we have many examples of our own organizations and institutions Reinforcing anti-blackness, uh, being unwilling to look at the way that anti-blackness has been reinterpreted through our own cultural practices to seem natural. I’ll speak for myself. I’ve, I’ve seen this on a personal level coming out of our communities and coming into our communities. I’ve seen this on a structural level. you know, we saw the stat in the report that there’s a high percentage of PIs who believe that cross racial solidarity is [00:38:00] important, and there’s a high percentage of PIs who are saying that they want to be involved and are being involved in trying to make a difference, uh, against racial injustice in this godforsaken. Country,  Um, that work will never be effective if we cannot as a community really take on this issue of anti-blackness and how intimately it has seeped into some of our most basic assumptions about what it means to be Hawaiian, about what it means to be Polynesian, about what it means to be, any of these other, uh, discreet identities. We hold as a part of the Pacific. Miata Tan: That was Dr. Jamaica Osorio, an Associate Professor of Indigenous and Native Hawaiian politics and a member of the Stop A API hate Pacific Islander Advisory Council. Dr. Jamaica was reflecting on the new report from Stop. A API Hate that focuses on instances of hate against Pacific Islander [00:39:00] communities. We’ll hear more from the PI Advisory Council in a moment. Stay with us. ​ [00:40:00] [00:41:00] [00:42:00] [00:43:00] That was Tonda by Diskarte Namin . You are tuned into Apex Express on 94.1 KPFA, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I am your host Miata Tan, and tonight we’re centering our Pacific Islander communities. Stop. A API Hate is a national coalition that tracks and responds to anti-Asian American and Pacific Islander hate. Their latest report found that nearly half of Pacific Islander [00:44:00] adults experienced an act of hate in 2024 because of their race, ethnicity, or nationality. Connie Tan is a research manager at Stop, A API Hate who led the charge on this new report. Here she is sharing some community recommendations on how we can all help to reduce instances of harm and hate against Pacific Islander communities. Connie Tan: So to support those impacted by hate, we’ve outlined a set of community recommendations for what community members can do if they experience hate, and to take collective action against anti P. Hate first. Speak up and report hate acts. Reporting is one of the most powerful tools we have to ensure harms against PI. Communities are addressed and taken seriously. You can take action by reporting to trusted platforms like our Stop API Hate Reporting Center, which is available in 21 languages, including Tongan, Samoan, and Marshall. [00:45:00] Second, prioritize your mental health and take care of your wellbeing. We encourage community members to raise awareness by having open conversations with loved ones, family members, and elders about self-care and mental wellness, and to seek services in culturally aligned and trusted spaces. Third, combat misinformation in the fight against. It is important to share accurate and credible information and to combat anti PI rhetoric. You can view our media literacy page to learn more. Fourth, know your rights and stay informed During this challenging climate, it is important to stay up to date and know your rights. There are various organizations offering Know your rights materials, including in Pacific Islander languages, and finally participate in civic engagement and advocacy. Civic engagement is one of the most effective ways to combat hate, whether it is participating in voting or amplifying advocacy efforts. Miata Tan: That [00:46:00] was Connie Tan, a research manager at Stop. A API Hate. As Connie shared, there’s a lot that can be done to support Pacific Islander communities from taking collective action against hate through reporting and combating misinformation to participating in civic engagement and advocacy. I’ll pass the reins back over to Stephanie Chen, the director of Data and Research at Stop A API Hate. Stephanie is speaking with the Stop, A API hate Pacific Islander Advisory Council, zeroing in on where we can go from here in addressing hate against Pacific Islander communities. Stephanie Chan: We’ve heard a lot, a lot about the pain of anti PI hate, we’ve heard a lot about the pain of just, ongoing militarization displacement government distrust problems with education. Anti-blackness. what three things would you name as things that [00:47:00] we need to do? What changes actions or policies we need to do to move forward, on these issues? And I’m gonna start with Isa.  Isa Kelawili Whalen: Thank you Stephanie. Um, I’ll try and go quickly here, but three policy areas. I’d love to get everyone engaged. One, data disaggregation. Pacific Islanders were constantly told that we don’t have the data, so how could we possibly know what you guys are experiencing or need, and then. When we do have the data, it’s always, oh, but you don’t have enough numbers to meet this threshold, to get those benefits. Data informs policy, policy informs data. Again, thank you. Stop. I hate for having us here to talk about that also, but definitely continue fighting for data disaggregation. Second thing I would say. Climate resiliency, uh, supporting it and saying no to deep sea mining in our Pacifica waters. History of violence again with our land and sea. There’s been a number in the, in the chat and one to name the nuclear warfare and bikini at toll, where after wiping out the people, the culture, the island itself, the United States promised reparations and to never harm again in that [00:48:00] way, but. Here we are. And then third language access, quite literally access, just access, um, to all things that the average English speaking person or learner has. So I’d say those three.  Stephanie Chan: Thank you. Well, we’ll move on to Jamaica. Uh, what do you think are the actions or policies that we need?  Dr. Jamaica Heolimeleikalani Osorio: Uh, we need to demilitarize the Pacific. We need to shut down military bases. We need to not renew military leases. We need to not allow the US government to condemn lands, to expand their military footprint in the Pacific. I think one of the points that came up time and time again around not reporting is again, not feeling like anything’s gonna happen, but two, who are we reporting to and we’re reporting to states and systems that have contained us, that have violated us and that have hurt us. So yeah, demilitarization, abolition in the broadest sense, both thinking about Discreet carceral institutions, but then also the entire US governing system. And three I’ll just make it a little smaller, like fuck ice, and tear that shit [00:49:00] down. Like right now, there are policy change issues related to ICE and carceral institutions, but I’m really thinking about kind of. Incredible mobilization that’s taking place in particular in, in Minneapolis and the way people are showing up for their neighbors across racial, gender, and political spectrums. And so outside of this discrete policy changes that we need to fight for, we need more people in the streets showing up to protect each other. and in doing so, building the systems and the, the communities and the institutions that we will need to arrive in a new world. Stephanie Chan: Great word, Michelle.  Michelle Pedro: I’m just gonna add on to what, Isa said about language, access justice, equity, also protection of access to healthcare. in terms of what Ika said yes. Three West, Papua New Guinea, yeah, thank you for having me here. Stephanie Chan: Thank you. And Ella, you wanna bring us home on the policy question?  Tu‘ulau‘ulu Estella Owoimaha-Church: I’m from South Central LA Ice melts around here. yes to everything that has been said, in [00:50:00] particular, I think the greatest policy issue. Impact in our folks is demil, demilitarization. And that also goes to the active genocide that is happening in the Pacific and has been ongoing. And as a broader API community, it’s a conversation we don’t ever have and have not had uh, regularly. So yes to all that. And risk, it sounded like a broken record too. I think, uh, education is a huge. Part of the issue here, I think access to real liberated ethnic studies for all of our folks is absolutely crucial to continuing generation after generation, being able to continue the demil fight to continue. To show up for our folks for our islands in diaspora and back home on our islands. You know, the, the report said that, uh, we are 1.6 million strong here in the United States and that our populations continue to grow, fortunately, unfortunately here in the us. And that [00:51:00] we are a multi-ethnic, um, group of folks and that, That demands, it’s an imperative that our approach to education, to political education, to how we show up for community, how we organize across faith-based communities has to be intersectional. It has to be it has to be pro-black. It has to be pro Indigenous because that is who we are as a people. We are black. And Indigenous populations all wrapped up into one. And any way we approach policy change has to come from a pro-black, pro Indigenous stance.  Stephanie Chan: Thank you, Estella. We did have a question about education and how we actually make. PI studies happen. do you have anything you wanna elaborate on, how do we get school districts and state governments to prioritize PI history, especially K through 12?  Tu‘ulau‘ulu Estella Owoimaha-Church: I’m gonna say with the caveat of under this current regime. Any regular tactics I’m used to employing may not be viable at this current [00:52:00] moment. But my regular go-to will always be to tell parents you have the most power in school districts to show up at your local school board meetings and demand that there is liberated ethnic studies and be conscious and cognizant about the, the big ed tech companies that districts are hiring to bring. Some fake, uh, ethnic studies. It’s not real ethnic studies. And there are also quite a few ethnic studies or programs that are out there parading as ethnic studies that are 100% coming from the alt-right. 100% coming from Zionist based organizations That are not, doing ethnic studies actually doing a disservice to ethnic studies. And the other thing I’ll say for API organizations that are doing the work around ethnic studies and, and pushing for Asian American studies legislation state by state. We’re also doing a disservice because in many situations or many cases where legislation has passed for Asian American studies, it’s been at the [00:53:00] detriment of black, brown, queer, and Indigenous communities. And that’s not the spirit of ethnic studies. And so first I’d say for parents. Exercise your right as a parent in your local district and be as loud as you possibly can be, and organize parent pods that are gonna do the fight for you, and then reach out to folks. My number one recommendation is always liberated ethnic studies model consortium curriculum, for a group of badass educators who were, who are gonna show up for community whenever called. Miata Tan: That was Tu‘ulau‘ulu Estella Owoimaha- Church discussing how we can help to encourage school districts and state governments to prioritize Pacific Islander education. A big thank you to the Stop, A API Hate team and their Pacific Islander Advisory Council. Your work is vital and we appreciate you all. Thank you for speaking with us [00:54:00] today.  Miata Tan: [00:55:00] That final track was a little snippet from the fantastic Zhou Tian check out Hidden Grace. It’s a truly fabulous song. This is Apex Express on 94.1 KPFA, A weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. Apex Express Airs every Thursday evening at 7:00 PM And with that, we’re unfortunately nearing the end of our time here tonight. thank you so much for tuning into the show. And another big thank you to the Stop, A API Hate Team and their Pacific Islander Advisory Council. We appreciate your work so much. One final note, if you are listening to this live, then it’s February 12th, meaning Lunar New Year is [00:56:00] just around the corner. For listeners who might not be familiar, Lunar New Year is a major celebration for many in the Asian diaspora, a fresh start marked by family, food, and festivities. This year we are welcoming in the Year of the Horse, and you can join the celebrations too. On Saturday, March 7th, San Francisco will come alive with the year of the horse parade, and this weekend you can check out the Chinatown Flower Market Fair Head to Grant Avenue for fresh flowers, arts activities, and cultural performances. On Tuesday, February 24th, the San Francisco Public Library will Drumbeats, Heartbeats: Community as One . this event will honor Lunar New Year and Black History Month with Lion Dancers, poetry, and more. Across the bay, Oakland celebrates their Lunar New Year parade on Saturday, February 28th. From more [00:57:00] parades to night markets and museum events, celebrations will be happening all over the Bay Area and beyond. We hope you enjoy this opportunity to gather, reflect, and welcome in the new year with joy. For show notes, please visit our website. That’s kpfa.org/program/apex-express. On the webpage for this episode, we’ve added links to the Stop, A API Hate Report on Anti Pacific Islander, hate from data on how hate is impacting PI communities to information on what you can do to help. This report is well worth the read. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me , Miata Tan. Get some rest y’all. .  The post APEX Express – 2.12.26 – Anti-Pacific Islander Hate Amid Ongoing Injustice appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 2.5.26-Envisioning Hopeful Futures 05.02.2026 59мин

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Envisioning Hopeful Futures Host Miko Lee speaks with two Bay Area artists, activists, and social change makers: Tara Dorabji and Cece Carpio. Both of these powerful people have been kicking it up in the bay for a minute. They worked in arts administration as community organizers and as artist activists.   LINKS TO OUR GUESTS WORK Tara Dorabji Author’s website New book Call Her Freedom Find more information about what is happening in Kashmir Stand With Kashmir Cece Carpio  Tabi Tabi Po running at Somarts   SHOW Transcript Opening Music: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express. Miko Lee: Good evening. I’m your host Miko Lee, and tonight I have the pleasure of speaking with two Bay Area local artists, activists, and social change makers, Tara Dorabji and Cece Carpio. Both of these powerful people have been kicking it up in the bay for a minute. They worked in arts administration as community organizers and as artist activists. I so love aligning with these multi hyphenated women whose works you can catch right now. First up, I talk with my longtime colleague, Tara Dorabji Tara is an award-winning writer whose first book Call Her Freedom just came out in paperback. And I just wanna give a little background that over a decade ago I met Tara at a workshop with the Great Marshall Gantz, and we were both asked to share our stories with the crowd. During a break, Tara came up to me and said, Hey, are you interested in joining our radio show, Apex Express? And that began my time with Apex and the broader Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality community. So if you hear a tinge of familiarity and warmth in the interview, that’s because it’s real and the book is so great. Please check it out and go to a local bookstore and listen next to my chat with Tara. Welcome Tara Dorabji to Apex Express.  Tara Dorabji: Thank you so much for having me. It’s wonderful to be with you, Miko. Miko Lee: And you’re actually the person who pulled me into Apex Express many a moon ago, and so now times have changed and I’m here interviewing you about your book Call Her Freedom, which just was released in paperback, right? Tara Dorabji: Yep. It’s the one year book-anniversary. Miko Lee: Happy book anniversary. Let’s go back and start with a little bit for our audience. They may have heard you, if they’ve been a long time Apex listener, but you as an artist, as a creator, as a change maker tell me who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? Tara Dorabji: Who are my people? My people I would say are those who really align with truth. Truth in the heart. That’s like at the very core of it. And I’m from the Bay Area. I’ve been organizing in the Bay a long time. I started out organizing around contaminated sites from nuclear weapons. I’ve moved into organizing with young people and supporting storytelling. So arts and culture has been a huge part of it. Of course, KPFA has been a big part of my journey, amplifying stories that have been silenced, and I think in terms of legacy, I’ve been thinking about this more and more. I think it goes into two categories for me. One are the relationships and who remembers you and and those deep heart connections. So that’s one part. And then for my artistry, it’s the artists that come and can create. On the work that I’ve done and from that create things that I couldn’t even imagine. And so I really think that’s the deepest gift is not the art that you’re able to make, but what you create so that others can continue to create. Miko Lee: Thank you so much for sharing the deep kind of legacy and sense of collaboration that you’ve had with all these different artists that you’ve worked with and it’s, your work is very powerful. I read it a year ago when it first came out, and I love that it’s out in paper back now. Can you tell our audience what inspired Call her Freedom. Tara Dorabji: Call Her Freedom is very much inspired by the independence movement in Indian occupied Kashmir. And for me it was during the summer uprisings when, and this was way back in, In 2010-2009, after the Arab Spring and for the entire summer, Kashmir would be striking. It would shut down from mothers, grandmothers, women, children in the street. This huge nonviolent uprising, and I was really drawn to how it’s both one of the most militarized zones on earth. And how there was this huge nonviolent uprising happening and questions about what it could look like, even like liberation beyond the nation state. And so I was really drawn to that. My dad’s from Bombay, from Mumbai, that’s the occupying side of it, and ethnically we’re Parsi. So from Persia a thousand years ago. And so I think for me, at a personal level, there’s this question of, okay, my people have been welcomed and assimilated for generations, and yet you have indigenous folks to the region that are under a complete seizure and occupation as part of the post-colonial legacy. And so I went and when I went to Kashmir for the first time was in 2011, and I was there. Right when the state was verifying mass graves and was able to meet with human rights workers and defenders, and there was a woman whose husband had disappeared and she talked to me about going to the graves and she told me, she said I wanted to crawl in and hug those bones. Those are the lost and stolen brothers, sons, uncles, those are our people. And another woman I spoke to talked about how it gave her hope for the stories to carry beyond the region and for other people to hear them. And so that became a real core part of my work and really what call her freedom is born from. Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing and I know that you did a film series and I wonder if you could about Kashmir and about what’s going on, and I think that’s great because so many times we in American media don’t really hear what’s going on in these occupied lands. Can you talk a little bit about how the interconnectedness of your film series and the book and was that part of your research? Was it woven together? How did you utilize those two art forms?  Tara Dorabji: I think we’re both accidental filmmakers. That might be another way that our cross, our paths cross. In terms of medium. So for me, I was actually working with Youth Speaks the Brave New Voices Network at that time and doing a lot of short form. So video content, three minutes, 10 minutes, six minutes. And it was playing really well and what I was seeing coming outta kir by local filmmakers was beautiful, gorgeous, highly repressed work generally, longer form, and not always immediately accessible to an audience that didn’t have context, that hadn’t been, didn’t understand. And my thinking was this was a gap I could fill. I had experience, not as a filmmaker, but like overseeing film teams doing the work, right? And then here are some of the most silent stories of our time. So when I went back to do book research in 2018, I was like, Hey, why don’t I make some short form films now? I didn’t even know what I was getting into. And also I think. When you go in as a novelist, you’re absorbing your hearing and it takes time. There’s no clock. It was, it’s been the hardest project to get from start to finish. And I couldn’t be like, okay, Miko, like I’ve done it once. Now this is how you do it. And when people trust you with their story, there’s an urgency. So throughout the whole project, I was always seeking form. So my first trip went straight to KPFA radio. Took the stories, project sensor, took the stories, and so I wanted to build on that. And so the documentary films provided a more some are, I’m still working on, but there was some immediacy that I could release, at least the first film and the second film, and also I could talk about how can this work dovetail with campaigns happening on the ground and how can my work accelerate what human rights defenders are doing? So the first film here still was released with the first comprehensive report on torture from the region. And so it gave that report a whole different dimension in terms of conversation and accessibility. It was a difficult film but necessary, and because I had to spend so much time with. It was a difficult film but necessary, and because I had to spend so much time with transcribing, watching the footage over and over again, it really did inform my research from the B-roll to sitting and hearing the content and also for what people were willing to share. I think people shared in a different way during video interviews than when I was there for novel research. So it worked really well. And what I am, I think most proud of is that the work was able to serve what people were doing in a really good way, even though it’s really difficult work.  Miko Lee: It built on the communication strategies of those issues like the torture report and others that you’re working on.  Tara Dorabji: Exactly. And in that way I wasn’t just coming and taking stories, I was applying storytelling to the legal advocacy strategies that were underway. And, you make mistakes, so it’s not like there weren’t difficulties in the production and all of that. And then also being able to work with creatives on the ground and at times it just. You, it became increasingly difficult, like any type of money going out was too heavily scrutinized. But for a time you could work with creatives as part of the projects in the region and then that’s also super exciting.    [00:11:18] Miko Lee: Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more, I heard you say something about how the, when people are telling your story for the novel versus telling the story for the video that the cadence changes. Can you share a little bit more about what you mean by that?    Tara Dorabji: Yeah, I think when I’m doing novel research, it’s very expansive, so I’m dealing with these really big questions like, what is freedom? How do you live in it? How do you, how do you choose freedom when your rights are being eroded? And so that conversation, you could take me in so many different directions, but if I am focused on a very specific, okay, I’m doing a short documentary film around torture, we’re gonna go into those narratives. Or if I’m coming with a film medium, like people just see it differently and they’ll speak and tell their stories differently than with a novel. It’s gonna be fictionalized. Some of it might get in there or not. And also with a novel, I don’t ever, I don’t take people and apply them to fiction. I have characters that like, I guess come to me and then they’re threaded through with reality. So one character may hold anecdotes from like dozens of different people and are threaded through. And so in that way you’re just taking like bits and pieces become part of it, but. You don’t get to see yourself in the same way that you do with the film. So in some ways. It can be safer when the security environment is as extreme as is as it is right now. But there’s also this real important part of documentary film where it’s people are expressing themselves in their own words, and I’m just curating the container.  Miko Lee: Was there an issue like getting film out during the time that you were doing the documentary work? Because I’ve heard from other folks that were in Kashmir that were talking about smuggling film, trying to upload it and finding different, did you have to deal with any of that, or was that before the hardest crackdown? Tara Dorabji: I mean there were, there’s been series, so 2019 was abrogation where there was a six month media blockade. And so just your ability to upload and download. And so that was after I had been there. The environment was there was challenges to the environment. I was there for a short time and you just come and you go. You just do what you’re gonna do and you be discreet. Miko Lee: And what is going on in Kashmir now?  Tara Dorabji: The situation is really difficult. One of the lead leads of the report on torture and coordinator from the human rights group that put, that helped put out that report has been incarcerated for four years Koran Perve. Miko Lee: Based on what?  Tara Dorabji: His human rights work. So they’ve just been detaining him and the United Nations keeps calling for his release.  Miko Lee: And what do they give a reason even?  Tara Dorabji: They, it’s yeah, they give all kinds of trumped up charges about the state and terrorism and this and that. And also. One of the journalists and storyteller and artists in the first film that I released, Iran Raj, he’s been incarcerated for two years. He was taken shortly after he was married, the press, the media has been dismantled. So there was, prolific local press. Now it’s very few and it’s all Indian State sponsored narrative propaganda coming through. ] Miko Lee: How are concerned folks here in the US able to get any news about what’s happening in Kashmere, what’s really going down?  ara Dorabji: It’s really hard. Stand with cashmere is a really good source. That’s one. There’s cashmere awareness. There’s a few different outlets that cover what happens, but it’s very difficult to be getting the information and there’s a huge amount of repression. So I definitely think the more instagram orgs, like the organizations that go straight to the ground and then are having reels and short information and stories on Instagram is some of the most accurate information because the longer form journalism. It is just not happening right now. In that way people are being locked up and the press is being dismantled and people running, the papers are being charged. It’s just horrendous. Entire archives are being pulled and destroyed. So hard. Really hard. So those, Stand With Kashmir is my go-to source, and then I see where else they’re looking.  Miko Lee: So your book Call Her Freedom is a fictionalized version, but it’s based around the real situation of what’s been going on in Kashmir. Can you share a little bit more about your book, about what people should expect and about what you want them to walk away with understanding.  Tara Dorabji: It’s a mother daughter story. It’s a love story. It’s about love and loss and families, how you find home when it’s taken. And the mom is no Johan. She’s a healer. She’s a midwife. She has a complex relationship with her daughter and she haunts the book. So the story told from multiple points of view, we never get and ignore the mom’s head, but. She comes back as she has a lot to say. And I think it’s interesting too because in this village that’s largely run by men, you have these two women living by themselves and really determining their own fate. And a lot of it has to do with both nors ability to look at ancient healing practices, but also a commitment that her daughter gets educated. And so she really like positions her daughter in between the worlds and all the while you have increasing militarization. And Aisha starts as a young girl just starting school. And then at the end of the story, she’s a grandmother. We get to see her relationships evolve, her relationship with love evolve, and a lot of the imperfections in it. And one of the things in writing this is when you’re dealing. Living in occupation, there’s still the day-to-day challenges that so many of us endure. And you have these other layers that are horrific.  Miko Lee: Yeah. And I’m wondering how much of yourself as a mother you embedded into the book as a mother, as an activist, as a mother of daughters, how much of yourself do you feel like you put into the book?  Tara Dorabji: A ton. It’s my heart and spirit in there. And there were some really, there’s this scene where the mom does die, and I actually wrote that before my mom passed away. And I do remember like after my mom died, going through and editing that part. And it was just like. It was really, it was super intense and yeah, I mean it definitely made me cry and it was also like the emotion was already there, which was interesting for me to have written it before but then have it come back and a full circle, I think.  Miko Lee: So did you change it after you experienced your own mom dying?  Tara Dorabji: It was soft edits. In my second novel, there’s a scene and it, that one completely changed ’cause I didn’t hit the emotion. Emotional tenor, right? It’s funny, but in this one it was pretty good. I was like, I did pretty good on that one. But yeah, so it was just like tinkering with it a little. I think also my daughters were about four when I started.  Miko Lee: Oh, wow.  Tara Dorabji: And it came out as, when they’re 18. So the other part was I was able to use their age references constantly throughout it because. I could just map to what it’s like being a mom of a kid that age. So I did ob yeah, definitely used my own. So it’s an amalgam and also it’s fictionalized. So in the book, it’s not Kashmir, it’s Poshkarbal there’s right a village. And so trying to take people out of something that they can identify as reality, but then at the same time, you can see the threads of reality and create a new experience. Miko Lee: So since you brought that up, tell us about the next book that you’re working on right now.  Tara Dorabji: Yes, it’s still very much in a draft form, but takes place here in the Bay Area. Similar themes around militarization, family secret love, lineage loss, and part of it’s in Livermore Home to one of the world’s nuclear weapons lab. Mm-hmm. Part of it’s in San Francisco, so exploring into the future tech, AI, and. There’s an underpinning around humans’ relationship to technology, and I think at this point. We know that technology isn’t gonna solve the crisis of technology. And so also looking at our relationship to land and culture and lineage. So there’s, it’s about, now I’m looking at about a hundred year span in it.  Miko Lee: Wow. Really?  Tara Dorabji: Yeah. Contained with the geography of the Bay Area  Miko Lee: Toward the future. Toward the past? Tara Dorabji: both past and future Miko Lee: Whoa. Interesting.  Tara Dorabji: Yeah.  Miko Lee: I’m reading Empire of AI right now. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that, but, oh, the AI stuff is so deeply disturbing about humanity. You’re really thinking about where we’re going, so I’m curious to find out your fictionalized versions of the impact.  Tara Dorabji: It’s a major change we’re going through. Yeah, and you and I grew up in a time when we didn’t have cell phones and we used maps, and Yeah. If I was gonna meet you, I had to be there and we’d have to make a plan in advance and yeah. It’s just shifting so rapidly. So we went  Miko Lee: through that. Even how to read a, how to read a clock like my girls, I had to show them as adults how to read a clock. Wow, I didn’t realize these things. Our world is so digitized that even the most basic, that concepts ha how are shifting and even fine motor skills. Like most young people do not have good, fine motor skills.  Tara Dorabji: Yeah.  Miko Lee: Because they’re just used to being on their phone all the time.  Tara Dorabji: Yes, and the, and I would give it is during the rain over the holidays, there is just always a family out with a small child in their yellow rain boots. And the kid like reaching into the tree, grabbing, smelling it dad or mom holding them. And so there are these anchors.  Miko Lee: Yeah.  Tara Dorabji: And even though humanity is accelerating in this one way, that’s very scary and digitize. It’s like the anchor of the earth in our community and our relationships still is holding us. Some of, you know, there’s still that pull. And so I think that how people form their communities in the future and the way that. The choices that are gonna be made are just gonna become increasingly difficult. We faced it in our generation, parenting around cell phones, social media. We’re seeing that impact of the suicidality, all of those things coming up. And that’s gonna accelerate. So I do think it’s, definitely a major change in transition some dark times, but also some really beautiful possibilities still rooting in our communities and in the world.  Miko Lee: And because we both work in movement spaces, I’m really curious I heard you talk a lot about connection and land and I’m just curious in your book. I got this vibe and I know a lot of the work that we do in the community. I’m wondering if you could speak a little bit on the land back movement internationally. In so many of those spaces, women are at the forefront of that. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that.  Tara Dorabji: That’s one of the most exciting things happening right now is the land back movement. In my younger days when I was studying what determines a woman’s quality of life internationally at a scale, it’s, it was really came down to land ownership. So in societies where land ownership went to women, they were able, and it was like. Outpaced by far, education and those other things is like that access to the land and the resource in that way. And land back is an acceleration of that, and I think particularly when we’re looking at a lot of questions around philanthropy, spun downs, how it’s done. When you transition an asset back into the community as land and land stewardship, right? Because then there’s like the ownership for the stewardship and yeah, the different ways that it’s done. But that is a lasting impact for that community. And so often when you’re investing in women. Then it goes not just in terms of their quality of life, but the children, right? And the whole community tends to benefit from that. And I think even looking at Kir in the, one of the things that always has fascinated me is Kashmir during, it was independence was a carve up by the British, so that’s a post-colonial strategy to keep people fighting. That has been very successful in the subcontinent. Kashmir had  Miko Lee: all over the world.  Tara Dorabji: Exactly. And Kashmir had a semi-autonomous status. That’s what was really stripped in 2019, was that article from the Constitution. And so in the very early days when their autonomy was stronger, they started some pretty revolutionary land reforms. And so there was actually clauses where the people that were working the land could have it. And people Kashmiris were transferring land. To two other cashmeres. And so it was this radical re resource redistribution and you have a really strong legacy of feminism and women protesting and leading in Kashmir and I think that part from my perspective is that was a threat. This fear of redistribution of resources, land distribution other areas started to follow suit and the nation state didn’t want that to happen. They wanted a certain type of concentration of wealth. And so I think that was one of the factors that. There were many, but I do think that was one that contributed to it. So I do think this idea of land backed land reform is extraordinarily important, and particularly looking at our own relationship with it. How do we steward it? How do we stop stripping the land? Of its resources and start realigning our relationship to it where humans are supposed to be the caretakers. Not the ones taking from.  Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing. I was thinking so much about your book, but also about the movement that we live in and the more positive visions of the future. Because right now it’s devastating all the things that are happening in our communities. So I’m trying to be a bit hopeful and honestly just to keep through it make sure that we get through each day. Given so many of our brothers and sisters are at risk right now I’m wondering what gives you hope these days?  Tara Dorabji: Yeah, a lot of things do, I think like when I do try to take the breaths for the grief and the devastation because that loss of life is deep and it’s heavy and it’s real and it’s mounting. So one, not to shy away from feeling it. Obviously not, it’s hard. You don’t want to 24 7, but when it comes in to let it come in and move through. And for me it’s also this idea of not. It’s just like living in hope. How do you live each moment and hope? And so a big part of it for me is natural beauty, like just noticing the beauty around me and filling myself up in it because that can never be taken away. And I think also in some of the most violent acts that are being committed right now, the way people are meeting them with a pure heart.  Miko Lee: Yeah.  Tara Dorabji: It’s like you can’t stop, like that’s unstoppable is like that beauty and that purity and that love. And so to try to live in love, to try to ground in hope and to try to really take in the beauty. And then also like how do we treat each other day to day, and really take the time to be kind to one another. To slow it down and connect. So there are, these are tremendously difficult times. I think that reality of instability, political violence, assassination, disappearances, paramilitary have come visibly. They’ve been in the country, but at a, in the US at a more quiet pace, and now it’s so visible and visceral  Miko Lee: And blatant. Yeah. It’s just out there. There’s no, they’re not hiding about it. They’re just out there saying out there, roaming the streets of Minnesota right now and other states to come. It’s pretty wild.  Tara Dorabji: Yeah. And I think that the practice is not to move in fear. The grief is there, the rage and outrage can be there. But the love and the beauty exists in our communities and and in the young people. Miko Lee: Yeah.  Tara Dorabji: And our elders too. There’s so much wisdom in our, in the elders. So really soaking up those lessons as much as possible.  Miko Lee: Thank you so much for chatting with me and I hope everybody that checks out your book call Her Freedom, which has gotten some acclaim, won some awards, been out there, people can have access to it in Paper Book. We’ll put a link in our show notes so people can have access to buy it from an independent bookstore.  Tara Dorabji: Thank you so much. Wonderful to catch up and thank you for all your work on Apex as well.  Miko Lee: Thank you. Next up, take a listen to “Live It Up” by Bay Area’s Power Struggle.    MUSIC “Live It Up” by Bay Area’s Power Struggle.  Next up I chat with Visual artist, cultural strategist and Dream Weaver, Cece Carpio about her solo exhibition that is up and running right now at SOMArts through March. Welcome, Cece Carpio to Apex Express.   [00:33:37] Cece Carpio: Thank you for having me here.   [00:33:39] Miko Lee: I am so excited to talk with you, and I wanna start with my very first question that I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? [00:33:52] Cece Carpio: That’s a packed question and something I love. just in terms of where I come from, I was born and raised in the Philippines, small little farming village town, and migrated as my first so ground in the United States here in San Francisco. So my peoples consists of many different beings in all track of. The world whom I met, who I’ve loved and fought with, and, relate with and connect with and vision the world with. So that includes my family, both blood and extended, and the people who are here claiming the streets and claiming. Claiming our nation and claiming our world to make sure that we live in the world, that we wanna envision, that we are visioning, that we are creating. I track along indigenous immigrant folks in diaspora. black, indigenous people of color, community, queer folks, and those are folks that resonate in, identify and relate, and live, and pray and play and create art with.  [00:35:11] Miko Lee: Thank you so much. And do you wanna talk, chat a little bit about the legacy that you carry with you? [00:35:16] Cece Carpio: I carry a legacy of. Lovers and fighters, who are moving and shaking things, who are creating things, who are the healers, the teachers, the artists and it’s a lot of load to carry in some extent, but something I’m very proud of, and those are the folks I’m also rocking with right now. I think we’re still continuing and we’re still making that legacy. And those are the people that are constantly breathing on my neck to make sure that I’m doing and walking the path. And it’s a responsibility I don’t take lightly, but it’s also a responsibility I take proudly. [00:35:58] Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing. We are talking today because you have an exhibit that’s at SOMArts Space, your first solo exhibit, and it’s running all the way through March 29th, and it’s called Tabi Tabi Po: Come Out With the Spirits! You Are Welcome Here First, tell me about the title and what that evokes for you. [00:36:18] Cece Carpio: Yes, so Tabi Tabi Po is a saying from the Philippines that essentially. Acknowledge, like it’s most often used when you walk in the forest. And I think collectively acknowledge that there are other beings and spirits there beyond ourselves. So it’s asking for permission. It’s almost kind of like, excuse me, we’re walking your territory right now. And, acknowledging that they’re there and acknowledging that we’re here or present and that, we’re about to. Coexist in that space for that moment. So can we please come through? I think this is also not just like my open idea and choosing this title is not that we’re only just coming through, but we’re actually coming out to hang out for a little while and see what’s happening here and kick it. Opening up space and welcoming folks who wants to come out and play with us and who wants to come and share the space.  [00:37:15] Miko Lee: Ooh. I really love that. I feel that when I walk in the forest to this ancestors that are with us. That’s beautiful. This is your first solo exhibit, so I’m wondering what that feels like. You have been a cultural bearer for a really long time, and also an arts administrator. So what does it feel like to have your first solo exhibit and see so much of all of your work all around?  [00:37:36] Cece Carpio: Well, I’m a public artist. Most of the stuff that I’ve been doing the last decade has been out in public, creating murals and installations and activations, in different public spaces, and went somewhere. Specifically Carolina, who is the curator at SOMA have asked me to do this. To be honest, I was a little bit hesitant because I’m like, oh, it’s a big space. I don’t know. ’cause I’ve done group exhibitions in different parts of the years, but most of the stuff I do are affordable housing to like public activations to support the movement. Then I kind of retracted back and it’s like, maybe this is the next step that I wanna explore. And it was a beautiful and amazing decision to work alongside so Mars and Carolina to make this happen ’cause I don’t think it would’ve happened the way we did it in any other space, and it was amazing. Stressful that moments because I was still doing other projects and as I tried to conceive of a 2000 square footage gallery and so my district in San Francisco. But it was also the perfect opportunity. ’cause my community, my folks are here and. We are saying that it’s a solo exhibition, but it really did take the village to make it all happen, and, which was one of my favorite part because I’ve been tracking this stem for so long and he is like folks on my back and I wanted to tell both my stories and our stories together. It was very opening, very humbling. Very vulnerable and exciting. All at the same time, I was able to talk or explore other mediums within the show. I’ve never really put out my writing out into public and is a big part and component of the exhibition as well as creating installations in the space. Alongside, what I do, which is painting mostly. But to be honest, the painting part is probably just half of the show. So it was beautiful to play and explore those different parts of me that was also playing with the notion of private and public, like sharing some of my own stories is something as I’m still trying to find ease and comfort in. Because as a public artist, I’m mostly translating our collective stories out, to be a visual language for folks to see. So this time around I was challenged a little bit to be like, what is it that you wanna share? What is it that you wanna tell? And that part was both scary and exciting. And, and he was, it was wonderful. It was great. I thought he was received well. And also, it was actually very relieving to share parts and pieces of me out with my community who have known for a long time. There were still different parts of that there were just now still learning. [00:40:39] Miko Lee: What did you discover about yourself as you’re kind of grappling with this public versus private presentation? [00:40:45] Cece Carpio: What I learned about myself through this process is I can actually pretty shy. I mean, I might be, you know, um, contrary to like popular belief, but it was definitely, I’m like, Ooh, I don’t know. I don’t know. My folks who had been standing close with me, just like, this is dope. And also just in the whole notion that, the more personal it is, the more universal it becomes and learning that, being able to share those part of me in a way of just for the pure sake of sharing, actually allows more people to resonate and relate, and connect, which at this moment in time is I thing very necessary for all of us to know who our peoples are when this tyranny, trying to go and divide us and trying to go and separate us and trying to go and erase us. So I think there’s something really beautiful in being able to find those connections with folks and spaces and places that otherwise wouldn’t have opened up if you weren’t sharing parts and pieces of each other.   [00:42:00] Miko Lee: That’s so interesting. The more personal, kind of vulnerable you make yourself, the more it resonates with folks around the world. I think that’s such a powerful sentiment because the, even just having a gallery, any piece of artwork is like a piece of yourself. So opening up a huge space like Somar, it’s, that’s like, come on in people. Thank you for sharing with us. To your point about the shocking, horrible, challenging, awful times that we live in. As we talk right now, which is Saturday, January 31st, there protests going on all around the country. I’m wondering if you can talk a little bit about what it means to be a visual artist, a cultural bearer in a time of fascism and in a time of struggle. [00:42:43] Cece Carpio: Well, if you go and see the exhibition, that’s actually very much intertwined. My practice has always been intertwined with, creating a vision in solidarity with our communities who are believing and fighting for another world that’s possible. My practice of this work has been embedded and rooted with the movement and with organizations and people who have the same goals and dreams to, bring in presence and existence of just us regular, everyday people who are still fighting to just be here to exist. So just to your question of, but what it means to do this work at this time. I think it is the imagination. It is the creativity that allow us to imagine something different. It is the imagination, it is the dreams that allow us to create that. Other world that we wanna envision when, everything else around us is telling us another way that’s not really the best for ourselves and for our peoples and for the future generations that’s gonna be carrying this load for us. And with this. In so many ways, a lot of my. my creating process, my making process has always carried that, and even myself, immigrating to this place that was once foreign is figuring out where I can belong. My art practice has not only been a way in which I express myself, but it has been the way in which I navigate the world. That’s how I relate to people. That’s how I am able to be part of different groups and community. And it’s also how I communicate. , And that’s always been, and still is a very big portion of my own practice.   [00:44:37] Miko Lee: Can you share a little bit more about your arts practice, especially when we’re living in times where, people are trying to get a paycheck and then go to the rally, and then maybe phone banking and organizing and there’s so many outside pressures for us to just continue to move on and be in community and be in movement work. I’m wondering how do you do it? Do you carve out times? Is it in your dreams? Where and how do you put yourself in your arts practice. [00:45:04] Cece Carpio: I don’t think there is a wrong or right way of doing this. I think being an artist, it is not only about being creative on what, a paint on the walls, it is about being creative on how you live your life. I don’t know if there’s a formula and it’s also been something that, to be honest, it’s a real conversation. I mean, most of us artists. We’re asking each other that, you know, like You do it. How do you figure out, like how do you add hours in your day? How do you continue doing what it is that you love and still fall in love with it when we’re under capitalism trying to survive, all these different things. Everyone has a different answer and everyone has different ways of doing it. I’m just kind of figuring it out as I go, you know? I’m an independent artist. It is the center of the work that I do, both as a livelihood and as a creative practice, as a spiritual practice, as a connective practice. This is what I do. For me it is just like finding my peoples who wants to come and trek along. Finding folks who wants to support and make it happen. Beyond painting on walls, I’m also an educator. I’ve taught and pretty much most of the different levels of, what this nation’s education system is like and still do that in practice, in both workshops, , sometimes classrooms, community group workshops and folks who wants to learn stern, both technical and also like conceptual skills. I consider myself also a cultural strategist, within a lot of my public activation and how I can support the movement is not just, creating banners or like little cards, but actually how to strategize how we utilize art. To speak of those things unspoken. But to gather folks together in order to create gateways for, other everyday folks who might not be as involved with, doesn’t have time or availability or access to be involved to make our revolution irresistible. Many different cultural strategist comes together and we produce public art activations to make it both irresistible, but also to provide access, to folks who otherwise probably would just walk by and have to go to their everyday grind to just make it on this work. As long as I see it aligned within kind of divisions that we have together to consistently rise up and get our stories known and become. Both a visual translator but also a visual communicator in spaces and places sometimes, you know, unexpected, like for example, within the protest when protest is over, like what are left behind within those spaces where we can create memories. And not just like a moment in time, but actually how do we mark. The space and places we share and that we learn from and that we do actions with. We can make a mark and let it be seen.   [00:48:05] Miko Lee: Thank you for that. I’m wondering, as you’re talking about your profound work, and how you move through the world, I’m wondering who are some of the artists that inspire you right now?  [00:48:17] Cece Carpio: So many, so many folks. Artists at this moment have been becoming vital because of the intensity of our political climate that’s happening. There’s so many artists right now who are. doing a lot of amazing, amazing things. I definitely always have to give shout out to my mama, Esra, which is one Alicia, who’s just consistently and prolifically still creating things. And she, I’ve been doing and collaborating with her for many, many years. What I think I really love and enjoy is that she’s continuously doing it and like it gives us more hunger to like, all right, we gotta catch up. it’s amazing and  [00:48:58] Miko Lee: beautiful. Amazing work.  [00:49:00] Cece Carpio: Yes, and I’ve been very fortunate and been very lucky to be part of an artist Has been such an inspiration , and a collaborator and in the many process of the different works that we do. So some of the crew members definitely shout out to my brother Miguel to, folks like Frankie and Sean Sacramento. Then we have span over in New York, like we’ve, we’re now spreading like Voltron. ‘ve been very lucky to have some amazing people around me that love doing the same things who are my family. We’re continuing to do that. So many more. It’s really countless. I feel like I definitely have learned my craft and this trait by. Both being out there and making happen and then meeting folks along the way who actually are in the same path. And it’s such a beautiful meeting and connection when that happens. Not only just in path of creating work, but, and path of we down to do something together. There’s so many, there’s so many. It’s so nameless.  [00:50:05] Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing some of them, some of the artists that helped to feed you, and I’m sure you feed them. You just have finished up an artist in residence with the Ohlone people. I’m wondering if you could talk a little bit about what that experience was like being an artist in residence there. [00:50:21] Cece Carpio: It has been an amazing, and the relationship continues. Karina actually gave the spirit plate on the opening, which is such a big honor because I consider her, both a mentor and a comrade and, and  [00:50:34] Miko Lee: Karina Gold, the Chair of the Ohlone tribe.  [00:50:38] Cece Carpio: Yes. And who I have such admiration for, because if. Both integrity and also the knowledge that she carries and the work that she’s doing and how she opens it up for different folks. How she walks is such a big part of how that collaboration started in the first place. As an indigenous immigrant that’s been consistent. Like what does even mean to be indigenous in the land that’s not yours, you know? Just the notion of what is our responsibility as stewards of this land to live on stolen land? I had this specific skill that I wanted to share, and they were more than willing, and open to dream together of what that could look like and was able to do. Many different projects and different sites , of land that’s been returned to indigenous hands. It was such an honor to be part of that. Creating visual markers and visual acknowledgement in spaces that, you know, kind of telling the autobiographical stories of those spaces and how it was returned, what our divisions, and to work alongside the young people, the various different communities she believes and wanted to take part of the movement. I learned as much or if not more. I share my knowledge of like how to paint a mural or all the different skills. So it was very much a reciprocal relationship and it’s still a continuous relationship that we’re building. It’s gonna be an ongoing fight, an ongoing resistance, but an ongoing victory. They’ve already have shared and won and have shown and shared with us the experiences of that. It’s been very rejuvenating, regenerating, revitalizing, and in all those different ways, being able to bear witness to that, but taking small part in pieces, and certain projects to uplift and support that and also just to learn from the many different folks, and people from both Sego and the communities that they’ve able to like. Create and build through the time, I mean through the young time actually that they’ve been here, but definitely still growing.  [00:52:46] Miko Lee: Thank you. Your show is up until the end of March. What do you want folks to feel after they go see Tabi Tabi Po  [00:52:55] Cece Carpio: Mostly are gonna feel whatever they wanna feel. I’m kind of curious to know actually, what is it that people are feeling and thinking, but I think Enchantment, I wanna recapture that feeling of Enchantment in a time and moment where. It can be very frustrating. It can be very, depressing. Seeing the series of event in this nation and just uncaring, and like the pickable violence that’s imposed to our peoples. I wanna be able to give folks a little bit of glimpse of like, why we are fighting and why we were doing this for and even see the magic in the fight. I think that’s a big part of the story that’s being told and that the, knowing that we’re still writing a story as we go. Within this exhibition, there’s a lot of spaces of me sharing parts of my story, but a big part of that is also spaces for folks to share theirs. That exchange of magic is something that we can use as ammunitions, we can use as tools to keep us going in times that is very, very trying.  [00:53:59] Miko Lee: The magical exchange to make the revolution irresistible.  [00:54:03] Cece Carpio: Let’s do it. Let’s go.  [00:54:05] Miko Lee: Sounds great. We’re gonna put links to the show at SoMarts we’ll put them on our Apex Express, um, page, and I’m wondering what’s next for you? [00:54:14] Cece Carpio: We will also have programs that coincides alongside the various stories that we’re telling with this exhibition to welcome for other community members, other artists, other cultural bearers, other fighters to come and join us, and be part of it and tell stories, heal time. Imagine a magical future to celebrate the victories and wins as big and small as they come. So that is gonna be happening. What’s nice for me is, actually it’s going simultaneously is I’m still painting. I’m going to be in support of painting a new space opening for a Palestinian owned bakery. They’re opening up a new space back in their hometown right here in Oakland. And Reem is a close friend, but also a very frontline fighter. ’cause you know, genocide is still happening right now. I wanna be able to support that and also support her. Another public art installation is actually gonna be unveiling within next month over at soma. In the district of Soma Filipino with the Jean Friend Recreation Center. I’m actually trying to carve out more time to write. I’m still exploring, definitely like in the infants stages of exploring it, but falling in love with it. At some point in time within this show, . Wanna be able to actually get it published, in a written form where both the images can accompany some of the written work , and wanna see like its duration last beyond the exhibition show. There’s always the streets to come and protest to happen and contributing to that work that we do to reclaim what is ours, the world that is ours.  [00:55:53] Miko Lee: Thank you so much. You’re doing so many things so powerfully, so beautifully, so articulately and I guess the best way for folks to follow up is on your Instagram. [00:56:04] Cece Carpio: Yeah, I’m still actually operating in myself.  [00:56:06] Miko Lee: Okay. Okay. Well thank you so much for your work, everything that you do in the community, so powerful, and thanks so much for speaking with us today. Thank you. Thanks so much for listening to our show tonight. Please go check out Cece’s exhibition Tabi Tabi Po at SoMarts and go to a local bookstore to get the paperback version of Tara’s Call Her Freedom. Support artists who are paving the way towards a vision for a new future. They are working to make the revolution irresistible. Join us. [00:56:41] Closing Music: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apex Express to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane- Lee. Have a great night.     The post APEX Express – 2.5.26-Envisioning Hopeful Futures appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 1.29.26 – White Switch 29.01.2026 59мин

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Guest host Jovelyn Richards presents White Switch   WHITE SWITCH Show Transcript Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:01:07] Hi, this is Jovelyn Richards and I’m happy to be here on Apex. Some of you may know me from Cover to Cover, which is every Tuesday at two o’clock, which I, um, spend time with artists, filmmakers, uh, writers, play writers, poets, to bring that to my audience. And on every third Monday you would hear me on Women’s Magazine and my colleagues. We all take one Monday and Tuesday on different topics from a feminist perspective, from a global perspective. And my specific way of approaching that is to look at writings and, um, that’s either from fiction or either it is nonfiction, but at the core of it, because my interest really is getting to the story of what it’s like to be human.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:02:05] Those reflect characters topics that really dig inside of that written by women who was in search of, in their research, their lives of highlighting either known people or ordinary people who are. Living in ways in which moves humanity forward. So that’s where you’ll find me. And so why am I here? I’m here because I did a project, uh, over a year ago, and this, this, uh, tape is, uh, this program is a long time coming. I partnered with this particular project with, so when you would be familiar with, and that’s Preeti Shekar last name is spelled S-H-E-K-A-R. And we began this story, uh, of looking at anti-blackness in the South Asian community together. So what I’m going to do is let you listen to a clip, not from Preeti or myself. But from someone else’s doing this anti-blackness work in South Asian communities with Ritu Bhasin, and the last spelling of her name is B-H-A-S-I-N. So we’ll take a listen to that and then I will be right back and have that discussion.   CLIP PLAYS   Jovelyn Richards: [00:04:46] All right, so here we go. And so one of the things I appreciated seeing and listening to her video when I first was introduced to her, that aligned with the work that myself and Preeti was doing in our project curriculum called The White Switch, and we’ll dig into that. What is the White Switch? What is the curriculum of the White Switch and how it came about? And so what I appreciate, the continuous work, you may wanna Google, if you don’t already know, you probably do with Ritu Bhasin, uh, because she speaks directly about anti-black, uh, racism within South Asian communities, especially among professionals and leaders. And as you’ve heard in the video, she shares what that experience has been. And I was so happy to be able to offer that in the beginning of this. Uh, broadcast so that it, uh, to break the sense of isolation just in myself. Speaking of it as a black woman, I was hoping that Preeti would be here, but she’s, um, back in India and I’ll talk a little bit about what that’s like for me, uh, that my co-create, um, my partner on this here.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:05:59] So the white switch and the history of it for years. Uh. Probably like close to 15 years now. We were part of the beginning of white, uh, women’s magazine and we had wanted to do something together. We knew that we wanted to work together without knowing the why, but every time we were in conversation in the building, uh, women’s magazine and the way I approach the topics, uh, as a collective. And where the resistance was, where the fun of it was at. Uh, and then her way she approached it, there was place the, the connected dots. So example would be for any of our lives, when you’re in very difficult conversations, you pay attention to the other, uh, uh, collaborators or whatever the, what the team is made of. And even if it’s to people and you see whether or not they’re coming from a place of inclusiveness, you’re seeing how, how hard they are holding on to their opinion, whether it’s negotiable, whether they’re really deeply listening. And what was really interesting to where we connect the is that we found that both of us and we were relatively new to each other.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:07:20] What we both found is that the humor. That in the heat of it all, or the conflict of it all, there was, we relied on this part of humor to not, to deflate and deflect from the situation, not to deflate it, like take off the, the, the fullness of the topic, but to give us all a moment to breathe in humor. Right? And, and that’s, that is part of my go-to as a standup comedian. So that’s real for me. So. Let’s talk about the white switch. So the, oh, so the, how it began, how we came up with that since we wanted to do a project together, how did we come up with the white switch anti-blackness in South Asian community Preeti, uh, was in New York over a year ago, and she was taking a Lyft in Harlem to wherever else she was going, or she was going to Harlem and the Lyft driver. South Asian, uh, driver asked her why was she going there or coming from there. Then she said, what do you mean? And he began to have a conversation around the dangers of that even. He didn’t always like to pick up folks there and he was referring to black folks. And so pretty him not knowing that she’s an independent journalist, she’s also an activist.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:08:48] Begin to ask important questions and starting with what has been your experience, your personal experience, and then your experience with others close to you that might have shared that is informing these thoughts. You have these feelings, you have these decisions you’re making, these things you’re telling me not to do, and he had nothing, none to offer. So the next question would be, so then, then. Why, and then from, if I got the story right, there was a, um, uh, moments of silence and so I think he was sort of processing, processing in his own mind. Why am I telling, why am I feeling this way? Why am I hesitant to go to areas where I know there’ll be black folks? Why am I telling a woman who is South Asian, particularly identifying with his own, uh, identity, wanting her not to go? And in that emptiness, one would hope that. Once he did self-reflection, uh, with that question that he was discovering, like he really didn’t have anything substantial to go by. And so when she got back from her trip, we were talking and she said this was very important to her, to talk about that.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:10:15] And uh, and I told her at the time, surprisingly enough that I was. Actually had been working on a project in my isolation, uh, called the White Switch, and that this coincidence, we wanted to take advantage of both of our energy of importance towards the matter. So the thesis statement within it is that the whites, which is a healing curriculum. This innovative program designed for activists very specifically anyone can, can be involved in the curriculum of, of essentially looking at the anti-blackness in any community outside of the black community. Specifically for activists and then, but anyone can do that if you, if they’re, you don’t have to be actively considering yourself an activist just by wanting to, to think about and look at the curriculum on some level. Something is activating inside and looking at that, and then to, in the curriculum to recognize as this, this Lyft driver did that there was no logical reason for him. To not only have that stance, but to offer it to strangers, then spreading that untruth or have no validity to it, right? And so the curriculum addresses that and to begin as, as to, to eradicate the deeper feelings despite being activists, despite education around anti-blackness.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:12:12] That even among the most astute South Asians, there are the deeper roots, the deeper roots of anti-blackness. And that is the white switch. The white switch. And so the, the pattern. The reoccurring pattern that one has seen politically in black communities. As we also heard in the, um, video, which were two of us seen, uh, has been, that is, is even after years of political education, community organizing, or DEI, where there’s a sudden internal shift that occurs. This shift is not intellectual, it is somatic. Emotional and rooted in the proximity to whiteness. And that switch, the white switch goes on immediately for survival purpose. So when confronted. By anti-blackness in conversation and actions, there’s a switch that goes off. Fight or flight, fight or flight. And when that happens, there are things that happen again in the activist. In, in communities that have, uh, fought for years for political education through community organizing. But the, the, the roots of the proximity to whiteness globally is no joke because literally it is saying, this is for your survival.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:14:18] You are invested here in this proximity to whiteness. For your survival, economically, social placement, accessibility, back to safety for all of the above, and this buried there even while you’re doing the, the, the radical work, however you show up, is sitting there with those deep roots, right? And so the workshop curriculum was created. I had started it before Preeti and I began doing it, um, writing about it. And I’ll give you that history. This is a good place to do the history of that. I had been doing political education around anti-blackness and around many issues, but what, this is what we’re speaking about, right? And educating around domestic. Other things were like hunger, domestic violence, um, community organizing, and specifically that, that came out of anti-blackness, holding workshops, creating workshops. And what I discovered is, um. Most of the people, the audience that was there, I’m thinking example of the Stockton Unified School districts district where myself and peer advocates went in, uh, to do the work of anti-blackness over some incidences that had happened in in Stockton in the public school system that was quite serious and quite painful for the black students and black community.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:16:07] And when I was there doing a workshop, and this was in my particular, um, um, curriculum that we was, we was doing, uh, but I was implementing it and what I noticed was more pronounced, I had noticed it before. And had even talked about it, had, um, had dialogues about it, uh, with others. What I noticed in those, the, those times that there’s a point. Where in the, that particular workshop, I could see where there was staff that was really wanting to get to the bottom of their own anti-blackness for their students. So the teacher part of them and the diversity of the students. And there was activated and then there was those, uh, that were not engaged with the caring of, they were there to teach and they brought, they. Didn’t have an issue with their behavior that spoke to anti-blackness. Example would be two students are talking and one non-black. Black. And these are just random examples. Very, they’re not mild, but compared to what had happened, what brought us there that was so extreme, it involved death. Um, uh. I shouldn’t just say it like that without giving more backdrop to it, but, and maybe I will.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:17:43] But here’s in the daily classroom that then this black student would be called out and removed more times than not from a classroom. And so by the teachers that did not take up responsibility, that in their teaching they had a responsibility to be teaching themselves. By listening to the students that would call, would call them out and, and stay forth and say, why, why? This person started talking to me? Why are you only pointing out at me? So this, this is not new. I’m sure this happened throughout the teaching person teaching career. Why am I have to go to office? And so now we can see what happens when students are constantly in the office, how that impacts them. So. That is part of when I started making more notes on this here. And then I, uh, worked with, and probably you’re very familiar with this organization in the Bay Area, surge showing up for racial justice. And they were, uh, we worked together on a project. That I was doing as a writer. I was writing the Play 911: What’s your emergency? And it was in response to white communities, particularly women calling the police on Brown and black people. And most notable in the Bay Area was barbecue, Becky and Permit Patty. So I met La Peña. I was a resident artist at La Peña Cultural Center. Hopefully you’re all aware of that. Uh, of the center and its beauty that it, uh, and work is done over the decades. And I, so in writing the play and working with community folks, uh, actors, performers, and interested and impacted by these phone calls, and we worked in Workshop to create together, I did. I wanted to. Dig more into the psychology now of the barbecue Becky and permit Patty.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:20:10] That means I wanted to look at the racism within white women. And again, I wanted to look at that from, of. White women who have done work and fight for anti-blackness and other, uh, social ills. And so I went to search and, uh, they agreed immediately, which is kudos and kudos, uh, that, uh, they were willing to even think to themselves, yes, I can look, I can get, I, there’s, there’s roots in here. There’s something in here. And so we, um. Created, I created the curriculum for the workshop that lasted over the weekend, and I found out some very interesting things and they found out more importantly, some very interesting things being activists themselves. And as we dug deeper using healing curriculum, for example, uh, there’s, uh, healing, uh, um. Theater is based in theater, similar to, um, not similar to, but another theater thing you could think of that deals, which social ills would be theater of the press, uh, playback theater. And I also use that in some of the work I do. That’s part of the White Switch. But I had created a thing called two Tiers Telling. Jovelyn Richards: [00:21:38] And in the chairs, two chairs telling the facilitator being me and the, the person who is working on, and this, in this case, women from s would sit in the chair and the others are the witness. They hold the space. Right. And again, this is a healing, uh, process. And then we go into some reflection questions, right. The same way. Preeti did with the Lyft Driver. But these particular questions, because I’m working with activists who are very savvy in the work they do, and very knowledgeable and, uh, the political, uh, things that are happening are happening in the world, then I created those questions to dig past the intellect. Pass the work into the personal, right? So we go into to memory, we go into early memory, and that became really a wonderful experience, as I said, for everybody, right? And I took those notes again, collecting that. And over the years, other workshops I’ve done. And so again, by the time it circled to pretty us looking forward. Uh, work to do together. It came up. Now I even in this rec, this, um, programming, it was odd when I ’cause this, this recording, this program was due like almost a year ago. We started this program in this 20, 20, 26. Now we started together in late 2024. We presented this at the DESI Conference in 2024, south Asian uh, DESI Conference.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:23:41] We presented at that conference, right? And we were building the curriculum looking for, um, support for it, and Kamala Harris spoke at that conference. There was some political uproar from some of the folks there. They had their own feelings about her and the, the, the, what was, what was happening, what was not happening in the, uh, Biden and her administration with Biden. And there happened to be a moment when I got into, uh, an argument with one of the people who wanted to disrupt the moment she was speaking. I had an issue with that and wanted to, um, ask more questions and in the questioning the person was, was crying and so upset, and then I asked them what work they had been doing in their, in anti-blackness, and their response to me was, I don’t have time for that right now.  That was very concerning. Very concerning. And so when I talk about this now, I’m recording this. It’s actually Martin Luther King’s Day where I’m recording it at air, uh, later and, and I’m sitting here reflecting on where we’re at as a whole. Jovelyn Richards: [00:25:14] And I know that a lot of that was, we’re here now, whatever, wherever you’re thinking about where we’re at, because of anti-blackness, because of anti-blackness. So, so much feels kind of odd to be talking about the work we were doing and wanting to do, and then more fiercely leading up to the election. Right? So again, this was, uh, 24. 2024 when we started the story in the, the spring of, and it just turned 2024. The conference was in the spring, I think it was May, late spring, and we came back wanting to do workshops and I left the conference. It was a wonderful. And I love the diversity of the conference in terms of the way diversity and how they was approaching it. Different topics, whatever the topics they were using. It was a different, it was different than most conference where the talking hads and, and then you go to break room, then you come back to another workshop on the program and then you go on the talking hat. You take notes or. And then you come out and then there’s a, another break or lunchtime, you go back in and you meet people. There were hundreds of people and there were, there were people approaching difficult subject matters with comedy. And I’m a comedian, so I know that, and we all know on some level the comedians can tell you the best of the best stuff in terms of, um, political social ills, and they get you with that punch.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:26:50] That’s another way to get people to sort of pay attention to where they’re at in the world, where they’re at within the subject matter and what or what not they want to do. Richard Pryor would be a good one, uh, most notable. Uh, and Eddie Murphy to some degree. Yeah, to some degree, but definitely Richard Pryor. Um. And so, and then they also had the dance. They have so much, they had so much of, they brought themselves their culture to the conference and it was one, it was the best conference I had been to. Uh, in a long time. ’cause it brought the, the, the one beautiful thing about many communities is that if, if the conference is put on by them, uh, and for whatever the topics, some, a lot of communities bring their culture into it, right? It’s not a template of traditional conference, which very cut, very linear, et cetera. And that was absolutely fantastic. And I enjoyed it deeply and that was my takeaway from it. My takeaway from what we presented, very active listeners, very painful. As I was listening to some of the panelists, I was on the panel, discussed the work they do and gave, uh. Examples, like, uh, one woman was an his attorney and deals with, uh, prison reform and she was giving case cases that she had shared and the disparity of an justice system and the pain of, and then it was, it was, um, very, uh, emotional for me because I know these things occur, but when you hear, hear them in a case study and the results of them.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:28:47] So I was. How very, I was feeling that very deeply. And when it was my, someone asked a question, it was my, and I was speaking again. I’m feeling a certain kind of way. And I’m much, much, uh, I mean at this point my, you can hear and feel my passion when I was answering the question and the frustration that the story of the prison system. Uh, the, the racial, uh, inequality, the punitive measures, and I, and frustrated because this is not new. We know that in the different presidential folks, uh, say the Reagan administration, the Clinton three strikes, we know that’s been going on and on, and yet the same stories being told over and over again. Uh, the sameness is like the, the, that different, different, different zip codes, different people, et cetera. But the same story of the injustice. The injustice, right? Going all the way back for some of you that are familiar with history. Going back to, uh, emancipation when the, um, black folks were, the, this sort of system we’re working on now was created from that, that system doing emancipation with black folks, had nowhere to go with no resource, no money, and that no land.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:30:19] And that wandering the roads of trying to, to make up a life. And they created a system, a law that if you were the, what is the fragrant of fragrant frequency law, lot loitering, L-O-I-T-E-R-I, in order to re imprison them. So they had choices either go to prison or go work on Mr. X Farm of Land. And so it’s been a continuation of, of creating systems, of imprisonment, of enslavement, of brown and black folks. And then so that came out and one of the people facilitating the conference when I, I just, my impatience of keep dis of discussion, my impatience of intellectual approach, my impatience and my bottom line question is, is what is taking this so long? If everybody, if we have attorneys and politicians and all these folks working on the same thing, why are we still here? What is that? And the persons, and so whatever I said after that was really about being more radical, more clear, more intolerant of it. And the person said, we are not ready yet. Meaning we are not we, we are not ready. We don’t have all those pieces in place. And then I said, we are. And why? And why are we on the timeframe of others?   Jovelyn Richards: [00:31:50] Right. Why is it we’re looking at the clock of others? What is that about other than anti-blackness? The deeper woods where the white switch clicked on? Why are you, why would anyone or any bodies of people talk about the atrocities of the prison system? The injustice? Talk about it, the atrocities. Then when approached to say, meet it, meet it where it’s at, it turns the intensity to say, we are not ready yet. What does that, what did that mean? Jovelyn Richards: And what I learned even in that statement that at the conference, and as men pretty came back and talked about and realized that even after years of political education, the community organizing or DEI, a sudden internal shift occurs. The shift is not intellectual, it’s somatic. Emotional and again rooted in proximity to whiteness and despite activists stated commitments to racial justice, many South Asians activists experience a movement with their nervous system over rise their politics. Fight or flight response activation. Instead of leaning into accountability, they retreat.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:33:23] Retreat into defensiveness, fragility or self-protection. And when I say those words, we see that more. We think about in the, what is the book? White fragility. So it’s the same thing, right? The same characteristic. ’cause again. It’s that close proximity to whiteness. So of course you’re taking the, the, the, when you, and this, I think it’s across the board when anyone is confronted on anything and don’t take the word confronted, um, and begin to think of it just as confront, like it seems like a hard word, word and English language doesn’t always offer enough words to express. One thing without making it as heavy, because confront, confront could be simply in a conversation and someone says, do you know what you just said is very offensive to me? And, and say, why? And then suddenly the possibility of the white switch, this reflective, turned toward whiteness. Toward innocence. Jovelyn Richards: [00:34:29] Rural more purity and distance from blackness is the white switch. And so when in my experience, uh, south Asian activist is confronted with their own anti-blackness, does the switch may show up as defensiveness. Words like, I’ve done so much work on this. I, you know, I do the work. It’s like proving, here’s my resume, here’s my, this, I’ve done the work and, and, and that’s not me. I’ve taken anti-racism training. I work every day my and, and bring credentials into it. I teach workshops. I’m dismantling racism, volunteer in prison reform. I’ve marched, donated, organized, centering my, uh, centering, centering. And that I wanna say is what people do in any situations, not just a topic like anti-blackness. It’s in a relationships you can, and we call, what do people call it now? Uh, you’re deflecting, you’re being a narcissist. It’s all these other things that cover it up. So it’s a, it is, it appears to be something that human beings do in constant protection. So I wanna make that clear, but now we’re talking about.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:35:50] In a way of the social pains of this world that we are trying as activists, uh, as people trying to get, not just get a handle on, but to eradicate it. Like right where, just take a moment. Where are we at right now? Where are we at in Minnesota? Where are we at in any state? DC Chicago? Where are we at? This is the thing that we’re dealing with. And so it, if the answer is to look at the things that, the look at, the things that the government is saying, it is saying, we clearly, we are racist, and everything we about to do was about to be about that. I’m so happy. Again, you’re going to hear this after, uh, today, which is Martin Luther King’s Day. I’m so happy on social media where everyone is celebrating. Not everyone, but those that I see are, are celebrating and they’re honoring. And they’re ignoring any, any kind of dismissal. Erasure, ain’t nobody. Yeah. You can forget what you wanna forget. You can have what you want to hide, but, but everybody out here knows the truth.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:37:18] We just gotta get to their truth of humanity. Other ways of dis defensiveness is the feeling in a sense of, of almost like being dismissed as all that they’ve done. Like, I’ve done all this, I do all this. And then to hear that and in, in, in that moment, I have, uh, witnessed we’re almost as if in the mind, you know, if they say we are not mind Raiders, but if you. You don’t have your mind reader to pay attention to the, the flesh of a person, the eyes of a person to be able to get cold. Where they’re running, where they’re hiding, which, where what, what, what are they doing to survive the moment? Right. To be seen and not seen. Right. And it’s not intentional. It’s not malicious. It again, it is a, it is the umbrella psychology that we exist under and. When a person works so hard to, to show up their best self as an activist in anti-blackness, and then someone, and particularly a black person, joins in their huge effort to say, Hey, this, this ain’t this. This is not working here. Let’s work with this here. It’s almost like they just threw out their. Whole journey of sense of, of what they’re proud of, what they’re, what makes them feel good about themselves inside this human life. And it should, oh, and they should absolutely adore, feel good because we’re out here doing the work.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:39:09] And so these are the things that is important for us to know. And we’re going to listen to another, um, video, and you are going to hear, I, I appreciated this video because it asked a question, what would I have been if I had not been doing this? So take a listen and then I will be right back.   CLIP PLAYS   Jovelyn Richards: [00:41:55] So what would. Right. What would we be doing? I ask myself as a black woman, if a lot of what I do as a writer, as a performance artist, as a community, um, activist, whatever the title is, how much energy it takes, and right now. The energy is taken again in a very different faith. This hurts, this hurts, this really hurts. Right? In a way that almost the thinking about again, the timeframe of when we were doing the work and then where we at now. Being in the conference where we at now, how many people voted against Kamala, where we are now after the conference, um, I got a text message and this was when they were, uh, folks was holding, uh, zoom.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:43:20] And it was really exciting. So many people from so many different communities was doing Zoom calls to talk about the, the elections that were coming up. And when she became the primary chosen person to run as a democratic party and people were talking, people raising money. Oh, did you see the excitement, the energy. I got a text message from one of the people from the DESI conference and, and was very, they were in pain. He said, I feel so hurt right now because on the zoom that she was uh, on, there were many people saying that they weren’t gonna vote for her, or no, this is South Asian Zoom. They weren’t going to vote for her. Or they weren’t gonna vote at all. My re I was so my livid, which is really not as important as the liveness of now. But I was just surprised given what everybody understood and knew about her opponent. And so I said to the person in text. I said, go back to the Zoom, and I said this, everyone, there’s a slogan that people are saying as if it’s, uh, the, the, you know, there’s always this new thing to say.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:44:58] And the slogan was, listen to black women. Listen to black. So I said to her, which, which I, I think people really don’t get it, don’t understand the history of what that means. They don’t understand history with that. They don’t care. And, and I’m saying, I shouldn’t just say I, it’s not that they don’t care. I don’t think they, they, they take, they don’t look at what that meaning. That means listen to black women means the story of black women in this country, how the, how our arrival, and then the story after that. They’re not gonna even get into you. You know that if you know anything, if you listen to KPFA, you know, and the MA mechanisms of how that happens, the template of how that works is the, the ask black women, the template, right? We, we know that the, the intimate details of how that works, right? And so the thought that people were literally not wanting to. I not wanting to, and that was disturbing.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:46:19] And so that happened. And then we did, oh, then I was, um, watching a couple ones that were white women were getting together. On these zooms, and they were so excited, so excited. And in their excitement, they were talking about, they were connecting. They, they were having so much fun talking about this, this, the leading up to the election, the support, the, the, and they felt some sisterhood. They felt energized. They felt all of this stuff and the energy I got from that. The energy I got from that is this is about y’all having fun, connecting, laughing, having a project. This is a project, and I asked, what I didn’t hear them say is how much they had raised. They weren’t talking about any of the practicalities of the next step.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:47:28] It was just about. It was a, and I put it in the way I took it. Good, bad or different. You can agree or not agree, but I’m telling you what I experienced. It felt like it was a big party, a really big fun party that they had experienced and being able to see people, they and strangers, and laugh and talk and, and go on and on and on, that it was a party, right? But it really wasn’t about the truth. It had something to do. And then, and I said, and I left that, that when I saw that, I wasn’t in the Zoom, but this was people talking afterwards, like on social media, about how excited they were. And I had asked, what did you raise? What are your next steps? They had nothing.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:48:14] Well, we are gonna have another one in a couple weeks. We can figure that out. Really interesting. You got two weeks to figure it out. You got, oh, you got that kind of time. Interesting. Right. And then, uh, we saw how that happened and I see that they’re working right outside my window. So let me just day. I apologize for those. Got a little bit of that noise out, said that, oh, I think that happened a little bit. And so that’s how that went. And now we are here. So again and again, we, I think to find a way, even though there’s a sense of probably hopelessness that some of us are feeling and we are not gonna go into, um, the hopelessness of it all. We are gonna go into, uh, not in this here, um, thing, but I think all of us needs to go into, uh, the, not even about the hope, but the necessity. Hope is wonderful. Necessity. They’re going to the necessity, right? They go into that place like, and find where do you live, where it’s like this is the urgency, the necessity to it.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:49:42] Uh, other quotes that I’m gonna give you a few of them. A few quote, anti-blackness is foundational, not peripheral. And that’s Frank B Wilderson. The third on the limits of allyship. So as we go into this, uh, we’re in this thing right now. I think it’s important for, uh, connectiveness, interconnectiveness in groups, intubated, dig. Inside, um, those roots to be the most effective on the nervous system and racial conditioning, the body keeps the score. I think that’s, um, something that’s important. And then when the, when I bring that up, the body keeps the score because what does proximity to whiteness doom where it literally dismantles parts of you no matter how deep you’ve been educated.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:50:43] That it can dismantle you. Um, and where does that go? Example, the nervous system and racial conditioning I speak about That is the, you lose the ability to see, hear, and speak that racial conditioning, proximity to whiteness. You give up the ability to hear. To see and to speak. You are muted and your critical thinking skills is dismantled in areas of, of, uh, anym. So I’m gonna broaden it anym, and it dismantles those parts of you energetically. Like here we are on this human experience. And, and all the, the human properties that belong to us. All the gifts of being human and to come into a circumstance, uh, where you are immediately given isms and in this story, anti-blackness. And I think some of you have, you, you may have heard of the book cast and we know it South. Asian communities coming from a caste system and then coming to America. If you came here to America with, or a history of, however, the story is that you, it’s, you have a built in template for anti-blackness. I mean, it’s already set thousands of years of being set.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:52:27] And so coming here, it’s not so hard, uh, to even, no matter how hard when you work to be educated. And to work in systems, uh, it gives you, working in systems and anti-blackness gives you sort of the oodles and feel a sense of pride when you sit down at the table. Right. But that white switch is there that you, the, the hearing, the saying, and the knowing is gone speaking, and so it’s at what percent. What percent are you really doing the work if you are embedded with anti-blackness? You, so, like I said, the co. The co, the conference, I asked that questions. I asked a question like, why is it taking so long? Because people operating, operating at 40%. It’s like being in a burning building and people in the burning building, you say, okay, I’m gonna go get, um, uh, enough water for half the building to be, um, uh, fire to be put out.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:53:45] So stand on that part of the building. The building’s still on fire. So you’re gonna put that out. So you’re kind of running around in a burn, a, a burning building, and that’s not okay. And so in creating the curriculum to do work, I think is really relevant. Now, I would fe I think February, um, 20, uh. 20 something, there’s gonna pop the white switch, uh, ebook is coming out and it’ll be on Amazon.  I know. Um, and that’s not the best thing. Um, it’ll be on, but it’ll be out there and it will be the curriculum, it’ll be the self-reflection, it’ll be stories. And I, one of the things that I’m wanting of folks is to start partnering with. Like, if you’re listening to this as a South Asian activist, what would it be like to get to, to hook up, which probably folks in your circle, um, black activists and there, and, and you may say what you, you may, I’m pretty sure you, you connected, but some folks have said, well, what if they’re, they’re not an activist.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:55:15] Um, very difficult to be breathing in black and not be an activist, if that’s even before this time being aware of your activism. ’cause if you gotta move through space every day, you’re fighting for yourself. You endure, uh, worlds. You are code switching, you are being aware of and mindful of and of your activities. You are an activist and always saving yourself. Saving yourself, saving your family, aware of signs of, uh, like, uh, signs that are out movies, you’re always looking after anti-blackness that exists, even if it’s not conscious on that level. Right. And so as I come to an end, I must say that, uh, it would’ve been nice to have done this with pretty, uh, one of the things that I think we both was learning an I that was.   Jovelyn Richards: [00:56:11] We were working on the anti-blackness and our work together that was, that couldn’t be helped, uh, in working together. And as she shared with me one time, and she does a lot of fantastic work on herself, she said, you know, I am, I am the white woman in India. And I appreciated that knowledge and how that might work out with us. I work and it did show up and we were able to discuss some things, some things I, my own stuff kept silent. Right. And that’s something I gotta work on. And I’ll leave you with that. It’s been traveling. Again, the ebook called We Switch by Joplin, uh, late February. Uh, curriculum exercises, thoughts, reflections, Self-Reflection, uh, and I’ll see you on Cover, the cover of Women’s Magazine. Until then, be mindful. Be conscious. Goodbye.   Miko Lee: [00:57:18] Please check out our website, kpfa.org to find out more about our show tonight. We think all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important.   Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Thank you so much for joining us.   The post APEX Express – 1.29.26 – White Switch appeared first on KPFA.