Reformed Brotherhood | Reformed Theology and Brotherly Love

Epizode

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  Persevering Prayer: Why God's Covenant Obligation Is the Ground of Boldness 11.09.2026 59min

  What does it actually mean to persist in prayer? In episode 505 of the Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb conclude their study of Luke 11's "Parable of the Night Friend" — and the answer is far richer than most Christians expect. Rather than teaching a technique for wearing down a reluctant God, Jesus presents a contrasting image: a grudging friend who finally relents out of pure annoyance, set against a Father who overflows with delight to give His people the very best gift imaginable. Through careful exegetical attention to the parable's logic, covenantal structure, and Trinitarian movement, Tony and Jesse show that the ultimate object of persevering prayer is nothing less than the Holy Spirit Himself — the supreme covenant gift of the new covenant age, promised by the Father to the Son, and freely given to all who ask. Key Takeaways The parable operates by contrast, not direct comparison. The annoyed friend is not a picture of God — he is a foil. Everything about God's character is the opposite of this reluctant neighbor, and reading the parable correctly depends on recognizing this reversal. Persistence in prayer is appropriate, not impudent. The word translated "persistence" in verse 8 carries a sense of shameless, boundary-crossing boldness. But unlike the midnight knocker whose asking had become socially inappropriate, our asking of God never crosses a line. There is no point at which we have asked too much. The shift from "friend" to "father" is a deliberate relational and moral intensification. Jesus moves the argument from voluntary friendship (revocable, lateral) to fatherhood (covenantally obligated, vertical), and then from sinful human fathers to the holy divine Father — two axes that together magnify the certainty and character of God's giving. Total depravity and common grace are both present in verse 13. Jesus calls even his disciples "evil," grounding the argument in the doctrine of total depravity, while simultaneously appealing to the nearly universal parental instinct to give good things to children as evidence of common grace operative even in fallen humanity. The ultimate gift is the Holy Spirit, not general blessings. Luke's version of this teaching specifies what Matthew's leaves general: the supreme "good thing" the Father gives is the Holy Spirit Himself. This is not a second-blessing theology, but a call to pray explicitly and persistently for the subjective experience and fresh working of the Spirit already indwelling believers. God's giving is grounded in the Covenant of Redemption. The Father's obligation to give the Spirit to believers is not merely an expression of His general goodness — it flows first from His pretemporal covenant commitment to the Son, to grant Him a people marked, redeemed, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Trinity is on full display in Christ's earthly ministry. The Father sending the Holy Spirit is unavoidably Trinitarian language — and Jesus' disciples received it without confusion. The Old Testament had already furnished them with this framework, and the New Testament simply brings it into full light. Key Concepts The Parable Operates by Contrast, Not Direct Comparison One of the most common misreadings of Luke 11 is to identify the sleeping friend with God — as though Jesus is saying, "If you pester God long enough, He will eventually give in." Tony points out that this reading produces a deeply distorted picture of God: an annoyed deity who only answers prayer when sufficiently harassed. The actual logic of the parable is a contrast. The friend is reluctant where God is eager. The friend gives grudgingly where God gives joyfully. The friend is moved by annoyance where God is moved by covenant love. Jesus is not saying, "God is like this friend." He is saying, "Even this friend eventually gave what was needed — how infinitely more will your Father, who is nothing like this friend, give you everything you need?" The parable's force depends entirely on the distance between its human character and the divine reality it points toward. The Ultimate Gift Is the Holy Spirit Himself A comparison of Matthew 7 and Luke 11 reveals something significant. Where Matthew records Jesus promising "good things" to those who ask, Luke specifies: the Holy Spirit. This is not a contradiction — it is Luke's Spirit-guided theological clarification, shaped by his characteristic pneumatological emphasis and his post-Pentecost vantage point. The teaching closes where it must: not with general providential blessings, but with God's own personal presence and power. Tony is careful to distinguish this from two-stage salvation theology. The call to ask for the Holy Spirit is a call for what might be described as the subjective experience of the Spirit — fresh assurance, sanctifying power, gifts for ministry — not a second indwelling. The Christian who already possesses the Spirit objectively is nonetheless invited, even commanded, to ask persistently for His living and active presence. That invitation is itself grounded in covenant promise. God's Giving Is Grounded in the Covenant of Redemption Perhaps the most theologically profound moment in the episode comes when Tony traces God's obligation to give the Spirit beyond the Covenant of Grace and back to the Covenant of Redemption — the pretemporal, intra-Trinitarian covenant in which the Father promised the Son a redeemed people whose redemption would be applied by the Holy Spirit. This means that when believers ask the Father for the Holy Spirit, they are not merely appealing to His general benevolence. They are appealing to a promise the Father made to the Son before the foundation of the world — a promise sealed in the Son's obedient life, atoning death, and glorious resurrection. God's faithfulness in answering prayer for the Spirit is, at its deepest level, an expression of His covenant faithfulness to Christ. That is the ground of Christian boldness in prayer, and it is the ground that never shifts. Memorable Quote God has covenantally bound himself to grant us the Holy Spirit when we ask him... That covenantal obligation first and foremost is not primarily his covenant with us. It is his prior commitment and covenantal obligation to his Son to grant him a people who would be marked by and redeemed and have redemption applied by the Holy Spirit. - Tony Arsenal We could not petition him enough to be annoying to him. There is no boundary for when it is inappropriate to stop asking or seeking or knocking. - Tony Arsenal It doesn't teach a doctrine of prayer as a technique, somehow like wearing down a reluctant God, but a doctrine of prayer as a filial confidence grounded in the Father's revealed character, exercised through this persevering, believing, asking. - Jesse Schwamb Full Transcript [00:01:03] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 505 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse  [00:01:12] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast With Ears to Hear. Hey, brother.  [00:01:16] Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. So I'm excited for this little conversation because I tried to tee all, all of this up for the culmination of this amazing parable, which I, I don't know if you coined it or if it comes from somewhere else or if it's what the Patristics called it- [00:01:32] the parable of the night friends, but I really loved that. Yeah. It sounds like an amazing movie as well, so maybe there's a drama that can unfold. I mean, this is, this is cinematic. And if you're wondering what we're even talking about, you know it. It's the parable in Luke 11, the one where Jesus tells a story about a guy pounding on his neighbor's door at midnight begging for bread because apparently first-century hospitality customs did not include 24/7 7-Eleven. [00:01:58] And so a lot of [00:02:00] us get this one wrong. We hear in this parable words like ask, seek, and knock, and we turn it into some kind of prayer vending machine where if we do the right things or we ask long or hard enough that God will give us exactly what we want. And it turns out the whole parable is about God giving us what we need, the best blessing, the best gift, the thing that is the best in all the world, which is His spirit, and that's what we're gonna talk about on this episode. [00:02:25] So it's all- Yeah ... been set up, loved ones. Now it's time for the good stuff. Tony's here. We're going after it hard. How about that?  [00:02:33] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, it should be good.  [00:02:34] Jesse Schwamb: It's gonna be, it's gonna be better than good, Tony. It's gonna be, like, amazing. I- I was hoping, like, the, the energy. I, I was just anticipating you were just gonna come in hard with me on that. [00:02:45] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I, I, I wish I had the energy. I mean, we'll, we'll talk about this maybe a little bit in denials. It's just been a, it's been a long day.  [00:02:53] Jesse Schwamb: Well, speaking of-  [00:02:54] Tony Arsenal: But it's good. It's good ... speaking- I'm excited.  [00:02:57] Jesse Schwamb: I, I felt like you were just like that was, [00:03:00] like, your pretty excitement for me and you were like, "All right. [00:03:02] Move us along." Yeah. "Enough of this stuff." I get it. No, no. I, I'm totally down with that.  [00:03:06] Tony Arsenal: It's good.  [00:03:06] Jesse Schwamb: Honestly, that's as good a set of a segue as any. It is time before we get to the, the full excitement, we'll war- we'll both warm up a bit.  [00:03:14] Affirmations And Denials Segment [00:03:14] Jesse Schwamb: Let's take us to that segment where we take a page from the Reformed tradition of writing confessions, except these are ones that nobody asked for. [00:03:21] It's that time where we affirm with something that we really like or we deny against something that we don't like so much. So I can only wonder now, given that little preamble, that just short little nugget that you dropped there, I am really curious, more than ever, are you denying against something or are you actually affirming with something else? [00:03:40] Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna cheat a little bit and go back, go old school and do an affirmation and a denial.  [00:03:44] Tony Denies Sleep And Twitter Bait [00:03:44] Tony Arsenal: So- Oh, okay ... I guess my denial is just sleep deprivation. It's, it's just been, for whatever reason, it's been a couple nights in a row of, of sort of disruptive sleep with the kids and the dog. And this time of year in New Hampshire, the, the nights start to get a little bit chilly, which is, is great. [00:04:01] Um, but you start to get rodents and other animals moving around and- When you live in the, the kind of house that I do, there's a large crawl space underneath, so even if, even if the animals aren't making their way into the house itself, they move around under the, the house. And so when you have a terrier that has been bred over many generations to hunt those kinds of animals, uh, when they start hearing them moving around under the floors, they don't, they don't stay quiet about it. [00:04:27] So denying sleep deprivation. We've talked a lot about how important sleep is, and how it's a blessing from God, and it's a way to show that we're not in charge, and we're not necessary, that God's, you know, God's plan and God's world keeps spinning even when our brains are shut off for the night. So I'm denying sleep deprivation. [00:04:45] My affirmation, uh, actually it's a denial too. It's two denials. It's a double denial. Uh, my denial, I guess what I'm gonna call it is I'm, I'm denying taking the bait. So there's, there's been a, a rather high-profile, uh, [00:05:00]Christian figure that I honestly was not super familiar with. I don't need to get into the specifics, but I was not super familiar with, and when I was silly enough to ask the question online as to like why is everybody even paying attention to this person who has no theology training and is clearly not articulating things in a reasonable way? [00:05:17] The answer was like, "Well, he has 4.5 million followers." I was like, "Oh. O- okay." Uh, where I'm denying taking the bait is that this is a person who's been railing against Reformed theology, Calvinism, uh, for a, like a week now probably, week and a half. Uh, total straw man arguments, just totally misrepresenting things, not a good faith engagement effort, not really trying to understand the position they're critiquing. [00:05:41] Just sort of like painting really broad, inaccurate strokes and then s- sort of congratulating himself when he knocks down that straw man. And where I'm denying taking the bait is that in the same breath as me saying like, "Why are we bothering to engage this person?" Uh, I engaged the person. And, uh, you know, like it [00:06:00] just turns into what you, what it turns into. [00:06:02] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:06:02] Tony Arsenal: It turns into both parties kind of screaming into the void and just feeling like the other person's not listening, and I don't have time for that. So, uh, I've, I've come up with a new policy for myself on Twitter. If someone is clearly not a good faith actor, uh, then I'm just gonna block them, and then I don't have to worry about it anymore. [00:06:18] Good  [00:06:18] Jesse Schwamb: for you.  [00:06:18] Tony Arsenal: Um, so there's plenty of people who wanna have good conversations, who are interested in dialogue, critical or otherwise, uh- [00:06:41] -fashion. Um, first of all, we should always be asking like, "Am I even the person that should be responding?" But i- if you, in God's providence and in wisdom and Christian prudence decide that you are, uh, then, you know, like is this a person worth responding to? Is Twitter the place to respond or, or is it a longer [00:07:00] format or something like that the best, um, best option? [00:07:03] So I'm denying taking the bait. It's like that, uh, like that GIF, like that's bait, and then I total- I totally took it. I totally took it, wasted a bunch of my time. Uh, and I used to think like, "Well, there's people watching, and they're reading what I'm..." But like nobody's reading what I'm saying. Nope, nobody  [00:07:17] Jesse Schwamb: cares. [00:07:17] Tony Arsenal: Nobody cares. Yeah. It's just a bunch of voices online. So there's ways to have influence and, and there are certainly people that have influence through Twitter, and I've had some really good conversations, and I think there is some value at times to engaging in that, uh, that media. But, uh, this was not one of them, so I'm denying taking the bait. [00:07:35] Jesse Schwamb: Would you look at us? I mean, would you look at us? How, how far God has brought us. Yes. I, I just wanna commend you for bringing that up and just kinda laying that all out in transparency. I, bully for you. I think that's right on. There's a... Everybody listen to that again, 'cause there was a lot of good stuff in that short little denial. [00:07:52] Very good.  [00:07:54] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. What about you, Jesse? What do you got for us tonight?  [00:07:57] Jesse Schwamb: I'm in that place now where, remember you and I [00:08:00] said we should create a list of our affirmations, Niles? I think you have been more faithful in that, uh, honestly, than I have. I, I have- ... coveted your, your faithfulness in doing that. So then I did it, and now I can't remember. [00:08:10] I'm not crossing them off, so now I can't remember if I've actually- ... given this. So everybody please have mercy on me if I've already said this before. I don't think I have, because, you know, I'm just burying a lead that doesn't need to be buried.  [00:08:23] Jesse Affirms Invictus EP [00:08:23] Jesse Schwamb: But I've got a affirmation, and it's more music, and it'll hur- hit a certain group I'm sure. [00:08:29] But I'm affirming with a band called Invictus. They have a new EP that's out this year. It's called Sealed and Sent, and I'll just give you... I, I don't, I'm not trying to make light of this, but, like, I'm not gonna tell you what the music... I mean, I have a pedigree I'm sure in history here. But let me just give you, there's six tracks. [00:08:46] I'm just gonna give you the names of the tracks. Maybe you might guess the style of music from these tracks. Um, it starts with Crush the Snake, then goes on to Heaven's Weapon, Hymn for the Fallen, which is acoustic, Retribution, Drive Them Out, and I Won't [00:09:00] Break. This is a great album. It is, I'm gonna go with their definition of their own sound. [00:09:04] They're a cinematic Christian metal project blending crushing riffs, melodic metalcore, and scripture-inspired themes of spiritual warfare, redemption, perseverance, and victory through Christ. Here's the thing. All of that's true, and you might say, as I did when I first came across them, "Uh, sounds a little cheesy. [00:09:22] Sounds a little kitsch." Turns out it's just awesome. And sometimes, like, you need this kind of music that's so spiritually rich in victory with Christ, that is so expressive of... 'Cause there is, as you heard, like a tint there toward the supernatural realm, toward the battles that are in that realm. But I, sometimes you need that. [00:09:43] This is fantastic. The only word of warning I have is that, so if you're not into that style, and there is, like, beautiful, it's very melodic. There's a lot of beautiful melodies in this. A lot of, like, the voices are really truly fantastic. So it's worth listening to for just for that But my warning is, um, [00:10:00] kind of strange. [00:10:01] This track three, it's acoustic, it's Hymn for the Fallen, is, uh, exactly what it is. It's almost like an anthem for those, uh, condemned to hell, and it is troublingly haunting. Uh, I think it's, like, exactly theologically precise, and it's beautiful in its own right. It's a strange song to listen to because it is beautiful in its expression. [00:10:22] The music is phenomenal, and again, the voice work from this, this single artist is incredible. His range is fantastic. I think it'll leave you at parts just almost breathless. And yet what they're singing about is not quite a celebration, but it is like a song of mourning. And every, uh, time I listen to it, and I wanna listen to it, and yet when you're done with it, you do feel this different sense and urgency for those around you. [00:10:46] So that's my only warning is it's a really complex little EP, but it's strong, and it's beautiful, and it's glorious, and it's a little bit haunting, and it's certainly convicting and challenging. So it turns out, I guess I do like... I [00:11:00]just love the word cinematic. Like, I'm not sure entirely all that it entails, but I think it's probably an, an accurate description. [00:11:07] So if you're looking for some new music or some different music, I highly recommend Invictus because I think you'll be blessed by them  [00:11:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. My, um, my musical, uh, I don't know, repertoire consists mostly of, like, kids worship bop music. Uh, so, uh, maybe I'll, maybe I'll put that on the next time I'm in the car by myself just to listen to some sort of, like- [00:11:34] I don't know, like grown-up music. 'Cause, 'cause I don't listen to a lot of grown-up music as it is now. I, if, if I'm lucky, I get a couple, uh, couple minutes on the bus or something like that to listen to some real, real adult music. But yeah, I'll, I'll have to check it out, and there's always a chance that this will be the screaming music or the heavy music that I like. [00:11:55] There's always a chance.  [00:11:57] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. It's more, it's more heavy than maybe screaming. There is a [00:12:00] little bit of that good rasp, but it brings me back to, you and I are of a certain age. I'm, I'm older than you, but I think back to, like, maybe that late '90s, early 2000s, kinda like Creed style. Mm. Like, almost like that, but a little bit deeper and richer and, and a little bit harder. [00:12:16] But it's, it's not, I think, so dissonant that the average ear wouldn't find great value in it. And again, that- Yeah ... third track, which is acoustic, is very beautiful in its own right. It's just a very strange song. Usually you don't hear a song like that, and it really caught me by surprise. And the more I listen to it, the more it does create some kind of mourning within you, and I've thought about it quite a bit, even as I interact with people around me, thinking about the essential emergency of what it means that souls are, are in play here, so to speak. [00:12:44] That, of course, they're all under the providence of God, but He used us as a means in which to preach that gospel message, and we ought to be about that gospel message. And I suppose- Yeah ... in point, that started the podcast as we talked about the gospel and became excited every time we spoke about the [00:13:00] gospel, and then it's, it flowed into this whole series we're doing on the parables. [00:13:04] Back To Luke 11 Reading [00:13:04] Jesse Schwamb: And now, of course, we find it again in Luke chapter 11 here And I was excited to speak with you because I tried to set up for everybody, ourselves included, just like all of the little prolegomena, all the, all the kinda like little fine, fun details of like the circumstance and the interaction that's happening in this parable. [00:13:23] But really the punchline comes in this, I would say, unexpected twist that one, we have this friend going to another, and the friend is reluctant when he really shouldn't be, and there's this incredible juxtaposition of, well, how much more so is God going to be less reluctant because He's our Father, and He delights to give us that which is good, the best of gifts. [00:13:43] And this sometimes gets turned around in that we ought to just really continually annoy God to the extent that He just gives us the very thing, and that somehow this is explained to us that we have to have enough perseverance, hope against hope, to continue to pray against all odds. And instead what we find [00:14:00] buried in this parable is something far better than that. [00:14:02] Actually, the gift that God gives us is something that we really could not conceive of apart from the gospel itself. So I'm gonna take us back- Yeah ... into Luke chapter 11. I'm gonna read the whole passage or the parable that we were just talking about, started it last week. But we're really gonna pick it up in this, so everybody can be listening, at this turning point where Jesus begins to speak about the role of the Father and what He desires to give us. [00:14:27] So this is Luke chapter 11, beginning verse one. "And it happened that while Jesus was praying in a certain place, after He had finished, one of the disciples said to Him, 'Lord, teach us to pray just as John also taught his disciples.' And He said to them, 'When you pray, say, "Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. [00:14:45] Give us each our daily bread. And forgive us our sins, for we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation."' Then He said to them, 'Which of you has a friend and will go to him at midnight and say to him, 'Friend, lend me [00:15:00] three loaves for a friend has come to me from a journey, and I have nothing to set before him.' [00:15:05] And from the inside he answers, 'Do not bother me. The door has already been shut, and my children and I are in bed. I cannot rise up and give you anything.' I tell you, even though he will not rise up and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence, he will get up and give him as much as we needs. [00:15:23] So I say to you, ask and it will be given to you. Seek and you will find. Knock and it will be opened to you. For everyone who receives asks, and he who, he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks will be opened. But what father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead of a fish? Or if his son asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? [00:15:45] If then you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give you the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?'"  [00:15:57] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:15:59] Tony Unpacks The Parable Logic [00:15:59] Tony Arsenal: This is, um, one of those passages that I think... I think you're exactly right. We, we sort of fall into a very specific way of thinking because for some good reasons, right? [00:16:13] Like, this is a parable about prayer. It's couched, y- you know, it's, it's sort of sandwiched in different parts tea- teaching about prayer. And so I think we, we instinctively, kinda like we saw with the Parable of the Good Samaritan, we kind of instinctively assume who certain characters in the, in the analogy here are, right? [00:16:34] Sure. Just like in the, the Parable of the Good Samaritan, we kind of assume that, like, the neighbor that is being talked about is the guy who got beat up and left for dead, but in, in the s- the punchline, we find out it's actually the Samaritan. In this case, I think we assume the person who is being, um, who is being e- entreated upon must represent God, and the person who is doing the entreating, uh, is, you know, is us.[00:17:00] [00:17:00] And I'm not sure that the parable, a- and again, like, what even is a parable? Some people would say, "Well, this isn't a parable," but w- we're really just talking about kind of like the figures of speech ministry of Christ, the figures of the sayings of Jesus that sort of circulate around these analogies. Um, w- what even is a parable? [00:17:19] And in this case, like- We need to be careful not to just make those assumptions without-  [00:17:25] Jesse Schwamb: Right ...  [00:17:26] Tony Arsenal: justifying them in the text because it'll lead us to the wrong conclusion. Like, like you've said, like if we assume that the person in the text, in the, the, the parable here who is being entreated upon represents God the Father, well, what we've done now is we've made God sort of like this annoying or this annoyed figure who doesn't really wanna answer our prayers, but because we harass him so much, because we're so persistent. [00:17:51] Another translation of that word is impudence, right? It's a word that has to do with, like, almost like a shameless begging. Like, [00:18:00] it's, it's someone who is asking something that goes beyond the boundaries of appropriate.  [00:18:05] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:18:05] Tony Arsenal: Right? It's, it's impudence, it's persistence, but it's not just persistence in that, like, it's not just stick-to-it-iveness. [00:18:12] It's like persistence to the point of being, uh, inappropriate is really what this word is getting at. Well, now what we've done is we've made it so we have to inappropriately pursue God for prayer. Right. So I'm, I'm glad you set it up this way to sort of say, like, we need to think about this parable. Yes, there's something here about prayer, for sure. [00:18:29] There's more here about the fact that God desires to give us good gifts, but we really need to understand how it is that this teaching is functioning in almost like a, a, almost like a contrasting example kind of way compared to, like, a direct example. It, it's, it's not, it's not exactly an argument to the lesser, from the lesser to the greater. [00:18:51] I mean, it kind of is.  [00:18:52] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:18:52] Tony Arsenal: But it's, it's almost like a reverse argument from the lesser to the greater. Like, there's this lesser that's so much lesser that he's actually [00:19:00] sort of- Yes ... like an annoying, like not a super admirable, noble figure. Then how much more noble is God? It's kind of the, the sort of the force of this parable, the force of this teaching. [00:19:09] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. I like how you said that. It was... You crystallized something I've been thinking about, which was, it's almost like in this text, think of, like, these two different shores. On one shore is this function, the action, and the worship of, uh, through prayer. On the other shore is this g- great supreme gift of the Holy Spirit, and there's something about a bridge that's being built between these two things, and it starts with this really interesting analogy. [00:19:34] But then there's, like, this turning point from friend to father, and for me, what, like I mentioned last week, I'm seeing, I'm picking up, maybe too much so, all of this interesting covenantal shadows and language here. And so, like, in this shifting, specifically from this analogy to friend to fa- from friend to father, there's almost in my mind, like, an intensifying of the relational bond. [00:19:56] I mean, friendship being voluntary and revocable, fatherhood, [00:20:00] especially in ancient thought, bound by nature, and then that again, covenant obligation. It does strengthen this interesting logic that's unfolding for us. But it's as if the bridge that's being built here by Jesus is taking and uniting or bringing together this idea of good gifts of the Father, and the greatest gift being the Holy Spirit, and prayer and how that accomplishes or receives or invokes those gifts, and the bridge being the right way in which to think about prayer and the right mode in which to consider prayer so as to ask for the things in the name of Jesus according to God's will, that is the greatest of all gifts, which is the Holy Spirit. [00:20:36] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:20:36] Hospitality Context And Midnight Bread [00:20:36] Tony Arsenal: And I, I think it's interesting too because this teaching, this parable opens with y- you know, kind of a s- sort of standard format that Christ use, uses in some of these circumstances, where He's talking to an audience who may or may not be hostile. In some instances it's hostile. In this instance it was a friendly, a friendly audience. [00:20:57] It was His disciples. Um, He says, "Which of [00:21:00] you who has a friend will go to him at midnight and say, 'Friend, lend me three loaves. For a friend of mine- Right ... has arrived on a journey, and I have nothing to set before him.'" This is parallel similar language to, like, which of you having a sheep who falls into a- [00:21:22] not like everybody has experienced it, right? I think I, I've never had, like, livestock, but, like, I know my dog has gotten into stuff. Like, everybody who's had a pet is like, "Yeah, my animal has done something stupid at some point." Like, ate something stupid, got stuck in something, hurt itself. So, like, the, the, the way that this is set up is [00:21:53] Tony Arsenal: In a way where it's like the scenario is sort of insane and nobody would [00:22:00] be in that situation. Um, and then there are times where he says, "Which of you having a friend, which of you having a sheep who falls into a ditch?" [00:22:09] Um, and, and the assumption is on some level either the, it, it's such a common scenario that of course everyone would have understood it, right? Which of you... It's like, it's like a woman losing a coin who sweeps the house to look for the coin. Everybody who has a, a, a valuable piece of money that they lose is gonna spend time looking for it. [00:22:29] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:22:29] Tony Arsenal: This one I think is more like that second one, which feels weird to us. Again, like we're, like you kind of alluded to and kind of joking, but I think is, is a, is a per- serious point, we can just go to the store. Like I could go to a 24-hour supermarket and buy resources if a guest shows up unexpectedly. [00:22:46] It's not like that in the ancient world. So this statement of like, which of you Basically like which of you who has unexpected company show up would not go to your friend or neighbor and ask for something to serve them? And especially in the sort of [00:23:00] hospitality-driven culture that the 1st century was, it would've been deeply, deeply troubling for a guest, especially a, a guest who's coming on a l- from a long journey who's showing up at midnight. [00:23:10] That feels like in our culture we'd be like, "Yeah, it's understandable that I don't have anything on hand." It would be deeply troubling for someone in that scenario to not be able to provide hospitality. So I think that's the first hurdle we have to get over with this one is the scenario feels, at least to me, feels a little bit insane, but I actually think the assumption baked into the teaching is that this is an understandable, relatable situation with an obvious answer. [00:23:36] Of course, all of us would go beg a friend for a few loaves of bread to serve our guest who shows up unexpectedly.  [00:23:43] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. There is like a foil in all of this. Again, it's not like Jesus is not commending like wear God down with nagging as a technique, but there is a lot at stake here in this scenario that's been set forward because there's, there's honor, there's covenantal honor like I think I [00:24:00] mentioned p- last time. [00:24:00] Again, this is where I'm seeing that there is something to be said for like the petitioner is a little bit shameless here. That is, like he's bold. It's, it's socially inappropriate maybe, the persistence in the knocking, but that's what secures the loaves. And so on this view, verse 8 does teach like persevering bold prayer. [00:24:18] I think then what we're being lead to, try, led to try to understand is well, what kind of bold prayer here? Is it just like any kind of prayer, or is there something specific that Christ himself is directing these people to ask for in prayer? And to me, it, to like, you know, maybe preempt a little bit, it seems like, of course, like he's saying, "Ask for God, of God the only thing that God can give you. [00:24:39] Ask boldly for that thing. Ask shamelessly, unapologetically for that thing," because we're gonna be led again to this kind of reprisal of roles here and see that he's gonna speak about himself again as, as Father, as being this really good father over and against this really reluctant friend who only gets up really because he has been annoyed, and that's certainly the opposite of [00:25:00] God's stance towards us. [00:25:01] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:25:02] Persistence Without Impudence [00:25:02] Tony Arsenal: And you know, there is, um, you know, like we mentioned, there's this element of- The an- sort of annoyed friend, right? And, and we don't wanna be too quick to compare God directly to the annoyed friend, right? It is this foil. It's kind of like, it's almost like God is not, is like this in some ways, but not like this- Yes [00:25:23] in the most important ways. I actually think the asking itself falls into that category, right? In, in the context of the parable, the asking, m- maybe not the asking, but the persistence, the continuing to pound on the door when the answer no has already been delivered. That is, in the context of this teaching, is, is seen as inappropriate, right? [00:25:45] It's, it's impudent. It's disrespectful. It's, it's an- Right ... unrelenting persistence beyond the bounds of propriety. Not only is God not like the annoying friend, or the annoyed friend, or the annoying friend, I guess, not only is God [00:26:00] not annoyed, uh, so there's this sort of like argument to the, from the lesser to the greater opposite or the greater contrary But our asking itself and our persistence is not impudent. [00:26:13] And I think that's a really key thing here, and that's why it goes directly into the next verse. "Ask and you will g- give it given to you. Seek and you will find. Knock, it will be opened to you." He's not saying because you're so persistent, because you continue to wear God down, it's gonna be given to you. [00:26:29] It's almost like he's saying, like, look, in this context of this parable, not only is the friend, not only did the friend say no, and the, the seeker is seeking inappropriately, and the friend finally, not out of the goodness of his heart, not out of his loyalty to his friend, not out of his desire to serve a stranger, not out of any of those noble things, just because he's annoyed, he finally gives in. [00:26:51] Well, not only is that not what God is like, but your prayers are not like the persistent, annoying friend who won't give up when the answer is no. Right. [00:27:00] Your, your prayers are appropriate insofar as you persist. As you continue to persist, they are appropriate. And, you know, we could get into all of the Greek details about the, the participles and all of this stuff about it's, it's not just ask at one point. [00:27:15] It's, it's continue asking, it'll be given to you. Yes. Continue knocking, it'll be given to you. Like, we can, we can go into all that, and I'm sure we'll talk about a little bit. But the reality is the sort of like durable nature of prayer, the like ongoing, persistent nature of prayer here is not established by those participles. [00:27:32] It's established by the comparison to this inappropriate asking, this inappropriate persistence in the parable, but it's not inappropriate. And I think that's, again, like that's another sort of argument from the lesser to the greater contrary. I don't know if that's actually a term or if I invented that, but that seems like what's going on here. [00:27:49] There's this sort of like minimum situation, and then you flip it over a little bit and, and make it bigger, and that's what we're getting at here. It's, it's sort of a strange technique that, [00:28:00] um, again, like is it present in oth- a lot of other teaching? There's obviously like the parable of the widow and the unjust judge that's basically the same situation. [00:28:08] Right. And we're- I'm sure we'll get to that, but like it's the same basic situation. It's, it's this idea that like Christ is presenting this scenario that has this one touch point, and everything else is like flipped over. It's like everything else is sort of opposite day.  [00:28:24] Jesse Schwamb: And that is a little bit different than the stuff that we've covered so far, which is what makes this a little bit exceptional. [00:28:29] There are ones that mirror it, but this technique-  [00:28:31] Tony Arsenal: Right ...  [00:28:31] Jesse Schwamb: is something that we haven't really come across yet, of course, in our conversations.  [00:28:35] Covenantal Frame For Ask Seek Knock [00:28:35] Jesse Schwamb: And I would say, like, good Biblical hermeneutics, like you said, resolves all of that, what you just said, not by, like, weakening the promise, but by locating it within its covenantal frame again. [00:28:46] Yeah. This promise is spoken to disciples who have just been taught to pray, "Your kingdom come, give us, forgive us, lead us not." That is, all of this prayer needs to be conformed to God's revealed will and kingdom priorities. And so what's hard is I [00:29:00] hear this spoken about a lot, this parable, but it always gets cut, like, from the teaching that just preceded it. [00:29:06] Right.  [00:29:06] Why This Contrast [00:29:06] Jesse Schwamb: Like, a- as if, again, they're coming to Jesus saying, "John was really good at providing instruction to his disciples on how to pray, and you being the Son of God, like the ultimate teacher, teach us then. How do we see you pray? We know that you're a man of prayer. We know that you're Son of God. Teach us, instruct us in this way." [00:29:22] W- w- let's get it, as it were, the... These guys are like, "Boys, let's get it from the horse's mouth." And so it's interesting that Jesus gives the instruction, he gives the prayer, he gives some language and a framework, and then he's like, follows it immediately with this teaching. And this teaching, though, like you said, doesn't draw, like, often, like it's orthogonal. [00:29:39] There's no, like, parallel or linear lines here- Right ... so to speak. It's, it's all about creating this weird contrast. And you might ask, "Well, why do it this way?" And so it does beg the question of does that distinction, that almost like cognitive dissonance between these characters, and then again, like the comparison to God, does that draw out in different ways this character of God so that we might actually [00:30:00] see it more clearly in that juxtaposition? [00:30:02] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:30:03] Midnight Friend Parable [00:30:03] Tony Arsenal: And I think, y- you know, one of the other comparisons that I think's going on here, and, and again, I think this is basically the same teaching as the, the pa- the widow and the unjust judge. Like, she wears him down with her petitioning, and he finally gives her justice. Like, I think a big part of this, the idea here is when we look at this parable, everything in the parable is- uh, understandable and relatable, right? [00:30:28] To some extent. Um, again, we i- in our 21st century modern context, at least in the West here, we don't have a situation where we can't basically just drive to the store and get something, even, even in the middle of the night. I, I don't know m- many people personally who don't have access to some sort of 24-hour supermarket or convenience store, something where they could go and get something to present to a guest who shows up unexpected in the middle of the night. [00:30:57] Um, and even the idea of, like, someone showing up [00:31:00] unexpected in the middle of the night is kind of like, even then, like, what we think of as unexpected is, like, the person calls us and they're like, "Hey, I'm 35 minutes away. I'm gonna be there. Do you have a bed I can use?" What we're talking about here in the 1st century is literally like, I'm asleep, all of a sudden there's a pounding on my door, and my friend has come from a long journey. [00:31:18] There's no advance notice, there's no messenger that came. This is literally just someone who appears out of nowhere in the middle of the night, and so he has to go get something. That is actually a somewhat relatable situation, even to us What I think is interesting, what I, what I really love about these, this parable and the other one I referenced, is when you think about the way that the, the friend, the annoyed friend, the friend who's sleeping and gets woken up, the way he responds is still to provide the need. [00:31:49] But then look at how we are... Look at the language around how God gives us good gifts, right? Right.  [00:31:56] Ask Seek Knock [00:31:56] Tony Arsenal: He's not giving us... It, it's almost like the teaching is God gives us good gifts. We should ask, we should persevere in prayer. If you continue asking, it will be given to you. If you continue knocking, it, it will be opened to you. [00:32:07] If you continue seeking, you will find. Like, that's the, that's the positive teaching of this. But the contrast is not just, yeah, if you continue to be persistent enough, you're gonna get what you ask for. It's, look, God is going to give you what you need and what you ask for. He's going to give that to you joyfully and out of his own abundance and out of his own desire to bless you with good gifts. [00:32:30] Not like this worldly dude who just does it 'cause he's annoyed.  [00:32:34] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.  [00:32:34] Tony Arsenal: So it's not just the argument of like, here's a picture of somebody who's persisting in prayer and gets what they want, and like, yeah, we have some language about the guy being annoyed and about inappropriate asking. God's not quite like that. [00:32:47] God Not Annoyed [00:32:47] Tony Arsenal: It's really designed to paint this picture of marveling at the goodness and, and graciousness of, of God in that not only does he grant us what we need, but he does so [00:33:00] joyfully. We could not petition him enough to be annoying to him. There is no boundary for when it is inappropriate to stop asking or seeking or knocking. [00:33:12] That's the real point of this, is not to just compare God to this annoyed friend who finally gives in, but to show us, like, this is what the world looks like. When you ask enough, you might get what you want, but you're going to annoy someone. That's what worldly pr- like, persistence in lateral prayer, if we wanna call it that, just to sort of keep the analogy going, right? [00:33:33] Lateral prayer, lateral petitioning, or lateral whatever. Like, lateral interceding, all of those things, however we wanna phrase it. That is real, and yes, if you do it long enough, you're probably gonna get what you want. You might burn a bridge in the process. You can never burn the bridge to God by being so annoying, because he's saying continue to ask, continue to seek- Right [00:33:55] continue to knock, and it will be given to you. And not only will it be given to you, but it will [00:34:00] be given to you out of the joy and goodness of my heart. That is really the big comparison that's going on here  [00:34:06] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, there's something that we just get to see about God's character here. It's grounds this perseverance not in doubt about God's willingness, but in confidence about it. [00:34:15] And that's what's so interesting here is it comes about by seeing this distinction. It is like a great mockery of saying like you're saying this friend who w- should've been a good friend and had all the reason to be reluctant, even though you pers- persevered with him, he relented and gave you that very thing. [00:34:32] Guess who will be the exact opposite of that? Yeah. Is God himself who lavishes love upon you. And so therefore because of that, you come before him and see he's nothing like this friend. And even a friend will do this in the worst of all circumstances. How much more so will God, where he's given you every spiritual blessing in Christ? [00:34:50] From Friend To Father [00:34:50] Jesse Schwamb: And that's, that's where he leads us, and that's why I think then it transitions to this different set of characters or comparisons by speaking about fathers. So in verse [00:35:00] 11, where we find written, "What father among you, if he has sons, asks for a fish will instead of a fish give him a serpent? Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?" [00:35:09] And, and I've read that there's some commentators who will draw from these pairs being chosen for maybe, like, their potential visual tactile resemblance. Like, a, an eel-like fish might have resembled a snake, and generally there were, like, these whitish scorpions I, I guess that were common in Galilee that might have resembled an egg. [00:35:26] And perhaps even here there's a little bit of humor in the illustration just to show, like, just the extreme nonsensical nature of this thing. It's, it's- Yeah ... a really cruel bait and switch. It's deliberate. You know, Jesus is appealing certainly to this universally recognized parental instinct as evidence, again, like you're saying, Tony, for a still greater divine instinct which is present, and that's this love of God for us that we can't even imagine. [00:35:49] But we can comprehend by him saying, "Come, ask, seek, knock." And so, so to me, I think we've got these two axes kind of going on here which are really interesting and beautiful. We've got the reluctant friend [00:36:00] to the willing father. That's a kind of, like, I would say again, like, relational intensification. Like, we're firing it up. [00:36:05] Here, we're taking it to the next level. And then because we got... I gotta slip this in because we got a little, a little TD coming in here hot. From the second axis is from, like, the sinful human father to the holy divine Father, which I would say is, like, a moral intensification, and that's made explicit in verse 13. [00:36:24] Total Depravity Common Grace [00:36:24] Jesse Schwamb: And here's the TD. Like, lest anybody doubt this, to me, and I don't want to over-read, but that second axis is of course where Reformed theology's doctrine of total depravity becomes, like, exegetically significant here. Yeah. Because Jesus himself just calls it out in this verse, and that's part of the, the setup that he's gonna bring forward to explain just how loving God is. [00:36:44] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and it's even, um... It's not only is it total depravity, it's also common grace, right? Yes. Even evil, even evil, wicked people. And again, like, evil is a, is in this instance is sort of a relative term, right? It's, it's, um- [00:37:00] The audience is the disciples, at least primarily the disciples. So it's not like he's talking to, he's talking to unregenerate people, right? [00:37:09] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:37:09] Tony Arsenal: Um, the, the disciples by all realistic assessment, I think, uh, were regenerate w- with the exception of Judas at this point. Um, you know, you could make some arguments that maybe some of them came to faith during the course of his ministry, but, uh, for the most part we should think of the disciples not as like coming to faith and becoming regenerate after Christ is raised. [00:37:31] Like, they're, they're believers, they're followers with the exception of Judas at this point in his ministry, and he's still calling them evil. But even Even an unregenerate father, for the most part. There are exceptions. There are, are, there are those who are so wicked that even their base parental instincts are messed up, right? [00:37:51] And that's reality. It's terribly sad, but that's, that's the vast exception. Even the worst parents in the world still love their [00:38:00] kids and wanna give them good, good gifts. Like, it's just baked into the genetics of wanting to do that. Even that still is, uh, is an act of common grace. But I, I think you're right, too, and actually, as I think about it, too, like, this isn't even just one parable. [00:38:14] Right. This is actually, if we're talking about the first one as a parable, this is actually, like, its own second parable, right? That's which of you, having a friend that shows up in the middle of the night, would not go- Yep ... and then there's, "Now what father among you?" And it's, again, it's that eminently understandable, relatable scenario where either it, it's so common that everyone has dealt with it, or it's so, like, obviously practical that even if you haven't dealt with it, you, you couldn't come to any other conclusion. [00:38:42] Right. What father among you, if your son asks for a fish, would give him a serpent, right? It's one of those, like, who does that? The answer is no- nobody. Right.  [00:38:53] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly. Right?  [00:38:53] Tony Arsenal: Who, who asks for an egg and gives a scorpion? Nobody. So we've got these two [00:39:00]scenarios where the assumption is there's a question that has an obvious outcome, and it drives us to this understanding of the, this image of God as the supremely good giver of gifts, father, faithful, gracious provider, who provides not just a good gift, but the ultimate perfect necessary gift. [00:39:22] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:39:22] Tony Arsenal: Right?  [00:39:22] How Much More Spirit [00:39:22] Tony Arsenal: And that's where we come to, uh, at the end of verse 13 is how much more, right, there's that argument from... This is truly an argument from the lesser to the greater, like in the purest sense. How much more will the Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him? And I think there's all sorts of implications that we can come out of this, right? [00:39:42] Um, there are those, uh, in the Christian world who never ask for the gift of the Holy Spirit. And, and I'm not, um, I wanna be careful here because I'm not a two-stage salvation person. I'm not a second blessing person, right? We get the Holy Spirit as part of our [00:40:00] regeneration. Like, the Holy Spirit indwells us in regeneration and in, in, not in necessarily in regeneration, but when we are united to Christ, we're united to Christ by the, by the Spirit. [00:40:10] Right. And so there's never a point where we can be considered truly saved Christians- Those who are united to Christ, we cannot be united to Christ and not have His Spirit dwelling within us. But there is this element of the subjective experience of the Holy Spirit where we don't ask for the Holy Spirit, right? [00:40:31] Think of, like, Psalm 51, right? "Take not your Holy Spirit from me." David was not saying, uh, "I've lost the Holy Spirit." He was talking about the enjoyment of the presence of the Holy Spirit, the awareness of the gracious, loving presence of the Holy Spirit. That's what he was asking not to have taken away from him, and, and probably also there was elements of, like, anointing and office that were in there. [00:40:52] But there are lots of Christians who have the Holy Spirit in an objective sense- Right ... who don't take time [00:41:00] to ask the Father for the Holy Spirit in the subjective sense. I think that's the final sort of payout of this teaching, is that we need to continue to ask, continue to knock, and continue to seek, not for general gifts. [00:41:16] Yes, there's a general teaching about persevering in prayer for temporal blessings or spiritual protection, all of those things, all of those petitions that we have. Those are good things. It's good to be persistent in those. But the real point of this whole series of teachings here is that we need to persist in prayer to ask the Father for the Holy Spirit. [00:41:36] Like- Right ... full stop. That's the point  [00:41:40] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Wow, you just did a full stop right there. I thought there was gonna be more, but I, I was getting pumped as you were going on No, no.  [00:41:46] Tony Arsenal: It's all you. Full stop.  [00:41:49] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, yeah.  [00:41:50] Luke Versus Matthew [00:41:50] Jesse Schwamb: I mean, the comparison, of course, is not one of degree alongside, like, a single continuum where it's as though God is a better version of a human father, but it's a kind. [00:41:59] I mean, [00:42:00] God's fatherhood is the archetype of which human fatherhood is just this faint, fallen kind of analog. And so by the time you get to this payload, I like that. It's kinda like a nuclear bomb in a way. I mean, it's so theologically loaded here. Because I was just looking up Matthew's parallel passage here, and it reads, th- this is his punchline, "How much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him?" [00:42:26] So it strikes me that Luke, as we've been saying, writing to a largely Gentile audience after Pentecost, and with his kinda characteristic pneumatological emphasis, he emphasizes or specifies that the good things here are the Holy Spirit himself. And so we're gonna read this not as a contradiction between the Gospels, but as Luke's inspired Spirit-guided clarification/specification of what the good gifts ultimately are. [00:42:54] And while they're always pointing toward that even this temporal good gift from the Father is subordinate to and [00:43:00] finds, I guess it's like its telos in the supreme covenantal gift of God's own indwelling presence. That is a bomb. Like, that's incredible. Yeah. And so I like what you're saying here. I think it is a challenge for Christians to think about not just that we shouldn't, of course, go to God with the big and the small things, the concerns of all our lives, the anxieties and the cares which we cast before him. [00:43:20] This is all part and parcel of what real prayer means, what real communion with God is, and speaking with him and listening to his Word, uh, i- in our ear. At the same time, we shouldn't forsake the greater things that we ought to ask God with strong perseverance, knowing that he will give all those things to us. [00:43:38] I think, and you correct me if I'm wrong, I, I'm reading this as- All of this kind of momentum in Christ teaching about the Spirit coming and about where this passage had been placed in the whole kind of grand arc, and I, I think there's, like, all kinds of Ordo Salutis implications in here. But I love a good Ordo Salutis implication, so it's possible [00:44:00] I'm just coming in a little bit too hot. [00:44:01] But I think first it, it anchors this teaching within this broader Lucan narrative, narrative arc toward Pentecost, where the ascended, glorified Christ pours out the Spirit as the chief blessing of the new covenant. And so again, I'm reading this, I'm like, "Covenant, covenant, covenant." Like, only if you're watching this on YouTube can you actually see me do the, the point, like the g- the finger guns- [00:44:24] where really strongly emphasize that point. And so I just see so much covenant in this. I mean, how mu- how much covenant, how much covenant do you see in this, Tony?  [00:44:36] Covenant Obligations [00:44:36] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, I, there, there is also this element, and this goes back to sort of the first parable or the first teaching in this little segment here, um- The friend is obligated in a certain sense. [00:44:48] Like- Yes ... there is, there is a, there's a sense, a real sense I think, and again, this is something I don't think we understand. If, if, um, if I show up at my neighbor's house, my n- I live in a [00:45:00] small community. My neighbor's house is like 25 feet away from me, and if I knocked on his door in the middle of the night and said, "Gus, I need a cup of sugar," he would give it to me with a smile. [00:45:11] But he's not obligated to do that. Right. He has every right, and no one would look sideways at him if he told me to pound sand and go back to bed, right? I think, um, in the 1st century, the answer from this other friend, "No, I'm already in bed," like that actually is sort of a scandalous answer in and of itself. [00:45:29] And so even within that little dynamic, there's covenant implications, right? The a- the continued asking is inappropriate, but it, the continued asking is almost only reasonably necessary because the annoyed friend already broke a social contract. Not quite a covenant- Right ... but we might call it a social contract, where there's an a- there's an assumed position in the 1st century that if someone comes to you asking for hospitality, you give it. [00:45:57] Like there's no exclu- And that's what's [00:46:00] driving this other friend to go talk to him in mid- at midnight in the first place, is I have to provide hospitality. I'm obligated to do so. So I think, yeah, there's all sorts of covenant implications here. And when we're talking about the, the earthly fathers, right? [00:46:14] There's a covenant, um, I'm, I'm careful to use the term covenant. So I'm gonna use it, but I'm not talking, maybe we'll say lowercase C covenant rather than like formal covenants. Right, right. There's a, there's a covenantal, lowercase C [00:46:28] covenantal obligation that fathers have to their children, right? I didn't make a covenant with August and Addie, but I have obligations to them in light of my station and my role related to them, right? And there's an obligation that if they ask me for something that is reasonable and is good for them, that I should give it to them, right? [00:46:46] I'm obligated to provide food, shelter, um, I would say things like education, love, um, you know, attention. Like the things that are necessary for the health and wellbeing of my children, as a father I'm obligated to give that to them. [00:47:00] [00:47:00] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:47:00] Tony Arsenal: Whether they ask me or not. When they ask me to, right, there are times it's funny. [00:47:05] I, I'll be the first to say, um, I maybe am a little bit on my phone more than I should be, just in general, right? There are times now Addie is old enough where she sees me on her ph- on my phone, and, and sometimes, like, it's fine. They're playing and I'm, I'm doing something on my phone. There are times where she'll come up to me and she'll say, "Daddy phone," and she'll tell me to put my phone down. [00:47:23] I'm obligated to do that. Like, there's a covenantal, lowercase C, covenantal obligation. When she asks me to play with her, if there's not a pressing reason I can't, I should play with her.  [00:47:33] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:47:33] Tony Arsenal: That is really what we have at play here, and this is, this is what I think is amazing. God has covenantally bound himself to grant us the Holy Spirit when we ask him, right? [00:47:42] Jesse Schwamb: That's  [00:47:43] Tony Arsenal: what I'm  [00:47:43] Jesse Schwamb: saying.  [00:47:43] Tony Arsenal: That, and that's, that's, um, that covenantal obligation first and foremost... Man, I didn't even think we were gonna get here. Who would've thought we would've gotten to pretemporal covenant of redemption here just- Would you  [00:47:53] Jesse Schwamb: look at us ...  [00:47:54] Tony Arsenal: uh, look at us.  [00:47:55] Covenant Of Redemption [00:47:55] Tony Arsenal: Um, that covenantal obligation that the Father has to give us the Holy Spirit when we ask is not primarily his covenant with us. [00:48:03] It is, right? It's the covenant of grace, but that only is, is necessary because of his prior commitment and covenantal obligation to his Son to grant him a people who would be marked by and redeemed and have redemption applied by the Holy Spirit. The Father has promised the Son to give the people of the Son the Holy Spirit when they ask. [00:48:26] That's, that's profound in a way that I think, um, really only Reformed theology can fully get at-  [00:48:33] Jesse Schwamb: Right  [00:48:34] Tony Arsenal: on ... is that there is a promise that God the Father made to God the Son to, to send the Holy Spirit to apply the redemption that the Son purchased to his people. That's really what we're getting at here. [00:48:46] I think that's really the, sort of the final outcome of this, is there's this covenantal obligation- That the Father is not just out of His own goodness, of course out of His own goodness- Right,  [00:48:57] Jesse Schwamb: right ...  [00:48:57] Tony Arsenal: but even maybe if it, maybe it's, [00:49:00] hopefully it's not blasphemous to say this, but like even more than just His own goodness is His covenant faithfulness to the promise He's made- Amen [00:49:07] first and foremost to His Son, and then to steal some language from the Westminster Larger Catechism, first and foremost to His Son, but then also to all the elect in Him who are His spiritual seed.  [00:49:17] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. That's right. That's, see that's the good stuff.  [00:49:20] Wrap Up Holy Spirit [00:49:20] Jesse Schwamb: And so what's crazy is then this beautiful wrap-up, which is brings us back to exactly where we started, but we find that we're on another level because the passage closes exactly as it began with this imperative of asking, but now the object of asking has been specified as God's own personal presence and power, not merely material provision. [00:49:41] And so it's everything you just said all wrapped up, and we can ground then like the practice of specifically and explicitly praying for the Spirit's fresh working, which is sanctification, assurance, gifts for ministry, as entirely a biblical form of prayer distinct from, though not opposed to, a prayer for providential [00:50:00] needs. [00:50:00] In other words, I think the disciples started in a place where they were saying, "Teach us to pray so that we might receive that what which we need." And it's almost as if God says, "I will do that and one better for you. Because not only will I just open your eyes to the thing that you need most, but I'm going to instruct you on how to ask for and then receive by way of these covenantal promises, by way of my own character, my faithful precis- provision, both in establishing the promise and then seeing it to fulfillment that you might have the Holy Spirit reside within you." [00:50:33] And that is mind-boggling. We've, we've talked before just what it is to even conceive that God's presence be with us, but then that God's presence it, uh, the Holy Spirit, one of the Trinity, would be residing within us is just inconceivable. Yeah. Even now with the words coming out of my mouth it just sounds wild. [00:50:51] And yet that is what we have to give credit to here is we have to take God at His word. This is the thing that He's, He said to us. His son, His Son Himself has given us this proper [00:51:00] instruction. And I think all, all the other things we talked about, what it means again to seek after gifts for ministry, to serve in our churches and congregations, to have grand assurance, which is the right and the purview and the blessing, the propriety of the Christian to, uh, want to go after sanctification, that all of this strikes me now is part of praying for, to receive the Holy Spirit, a fresh working of the Holy Spirit in that it's not just, it's both like a command and a gift and the greatest privilege of the Christian. [00:51:32] And we find it all wrapped up in this little parable.  [00:51:36] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:51:37] Telegram Discussion Prompts [00:51:37] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and you know, we're coming up on time here and, and I don't think we'll need to do another episode, but I'll, I'll throw a couple little teasers out. And what I would love to see happen, uh, we have this little Telegram chat. Telegram is just this little instant messaging app. [00:51:51] Uh, all sorts of different groups use it. What we use it for is to slice out a little corner of the internet that is populated with brothers and sisters who love the [00:52:00] Lord and want to get after it in a way that isn't the normal snarkiness and aggressiveness that you see on most, not all, but most of Reformed, uh, the Reformed internet world. [00:52:12] Uh, you can join it by going to t.me/reformedbrotherhood. And what I would love to see, right? Go to t.me/reformedbrotherhood, join the Telegram chat. I would love to see some conversation around these two maybe, like, threads we could pull on a little bit more. The first thing is this prayer, right? And then of course this, the prayer that Ch- Christ teaches his disciples, and of course the Matthean version of this is a little bit longer, it has a little bit more details, but it's the same basic prayer. [00:52:40] The prayer that, that Christ teaches his disciples is a distinctly Christian prayer, and in this passage at least, it's in contrast to the way John's disciples were taught to pray.  [00:52:51] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:52:51] Tony Arsenal: Right? The disciples come and say, "Teach us to pray the way John taught his disciples to pray." Christ teaches them to pray. [00:52:59] Well, some of [00:53:00] these people were John's disciples, right? These were people who, who were out in the wilderness seeing John, and, and th- they would have understood the way that John had taught his disciples to pray. And Christ teaches them something different. So let's, let's talk about that in the Telegram chat. [00:53:14] What, how is this distinctly Christian? Right on.  [00:53:16] Trinity In Old Testament [00:53:16] Tony Arsenal: The other thing that I think is really interesting here And this is something that I think a lot of people don't, um, they either don't pick up on, or maybe they don't think is as big of a deal as maybe I do, and maybe it's not that big of a deal. But there's an assumption, and, and this isn't Luke's assumption, right? [00:53:34] I think some people would look at this and see this as like a, an after-the-fact insertion of Trinitarian pneumatology, right? That there's the Father, and the Father gives the Holy Spirit, is a distinctly Trinitarian statement. Well, Christ was teaching his disciples, and there was nobody that was like, "Wait a second, Jesus. [00:53:55] Uh, what are you talking about with the Holy Spirit?" Like- Yes ... this was already baked into their own re- like, [00:54:00] religion and spirituality. Right. Nobody batted an eye at the fact that the Father and the Holy Spirit were being distinguished from each other in this passage. And as I alluded to earlier, nobody batted an eye when David said it. [00:54:12] So- Right ... there, there's this assumption, I think, in a lot of sectors that, like, Old Testament religion was, was so Unitarian that, like, Trinitarian language, yeah, I guess we could shoehorn it into the Old Testament, and like, types and shadows, and like, yeah, there's a dark room fully furnished, and, um... But the reality is, like, loved ones, the reality is that the, the Trinity was on full display in most of the Old Testament. [00:54:42] Um, I, I know there are a lot of really strong voices in the Reformed world who I- And I think for good reasons, right? This is not me saying they're so wrong that they're dumb. But for a lot of reasons, wanna actually act like we can't read the Old Testament and see the Trinity clearly, and I think that's just not right.[00:55:00] [00:55:00] So I would love, I would love to see some conversation around this idea, too. Like, what are some ways that the Bible is Trinitarian, not just through and through in the New Testament? It's clear that the New Testament is a Trinitarian document. How is the Old Testament a Trinitarian document?  [00:55:14] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:55:14] Tony Arsenal: How is the teaching of Christ in, presented in the Gospels Trinitarian teaching? [00:55:20] I think in this passage, it's totally unavoidable. Christ is clearly teaching a Trinitarian movement of the Father sending the Holy Spirit to his people because of his love, primarily for his Son and for his people in him. I, I just think that's amazing. So I couldn't, I couldn't close the episode without us at least touching on the fact that, like- Jesus is teaching a full-on Trinitarian teaching right here in the middle of his ministry in- Nice [00:55:46] in the New Testament. Like, it- we don't need to wait until after Pentecost to talk about the Trinity. Christ certainly didn't. Right.  [00:55:55] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Uh, you're so right about that. And by the way, loved ones, you got your [00:56:00]homework. So go to t.me/reformedbrotherhood and come hang out. You've got your marching orders. We expect, uh, how... [00:56:08] I mean, is like four or five-page essay, is that sufficient? Or should we have a higher-  [00:56:14] Tony Arsenal: Yeah ...  [00:56:14] Jesse Schwamb: page count limit? I mean, I just wanna be realistic about that. So I love that we're able to speak about this together finally, because we've been thinking about it for a little while.  [00:56:24] Final Takeaways And Close [00:56:24] Jesse Schwamb: And I would say, I'm trying to wrap this up, what, what have we learned about this little Parable of the Night Friend? [00:56:30] One, Parable of the Night Friend is an excellent title for this. Again, I don't, it's almost like Night at the Museum, maybe that's what I'm hearing. So I, I don't know, it just, there's something about that combination of words that just sounds very mysterious and awesome. And it turns out it doesn't teach a doctrine of prayer as a technique, somehow like wearing down a reluctant God, but a doctrine of prayer as a filial confidence grounded in the Father's revealed character, exercised through this persevering, believing, [00:57:00] asking. [00:57:00] And it's a kind of confidence that's made possible only because of who the Father has shown himself to be in Christ, and sealed by the Spirit whom Christ has obtained for his people, and whom he's willing to give if we ask. So we, we should ask, seek, find, knock. We should do all the verbs which God has been, already done for us so that we might participate in them and receive his Holy Spirit. [00:57:26] And maybe, again, the challenge for all of us is to pray for a, a new freshness in that, a fresh work of the Holy Spirit for those things like assurance in ministries and sanctification. There's nothing wrong with this. Uh, we can come back to this well which will never run dry, and from which we are encouraged to drink and drink and drink again. [00:57:44] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, Jesse, that's a good place, I think, to, to wrap it up. The Bible is such a well of knowledge and wisdom, and I, I just, I love that we're in the midst of this series where we're just driven back into the Word again and [00:58:00] again and again and again. And I think, you know, I, I know that there are lots of different places people go to get sort of like Bible teaching, Reformed teaching, and I'm just so honored that we have this little slice of the internet with people who- Me too [00:58:14] feel like we're worth listening to. I don't always think we're worth listening to. Me too. But I'm glad that someone out there finds it beneficial. So with all of that said, uh, we would love to see you come back next week. We'd love to see you chat about this in the Telegram chat, and we would love to have you come back to just join us as we continue through this series on the Parables. [00:58:31] So until then, honor everyone.  [00:58:34] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood. [00:59:00]
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  Luke 11 and the Parable of the Midnight Friend: The Argument from Lesser to Greater 04.09.2026 28min

  In this solo episode, Jesse sets the stage for an upcoming conversation with Tony by diving into one of Jesus' most theologically rich parables — the Parable of the Midnight Friend in Luke 11. Rather than treating this as a simple lesson on prayer technique, Jesse unpacks the passage as a carefully constructed theological argument: a qal wahomer (lesser-to-greater) reasoning that ultimately reveals the character of God the Father. Set within Luke's central travel narrative, the parable is not free-floating wisdom — it is discipleship instruction delivered by the Messiah en route to Jerusalem and the cross. The episode challenges common misreadings that pit persistence against divine sovereignty and instead grounds persevering prayer in confidence in God's willing, lavish character. The culmination — the gift of the Holy Spirit — awaits next week. Key Takeaways The parable's literary structure is intentional and theological — the Lord's Prayer leads to the parable, which leads to a promise (ask, seek, knock), which is grounded in the Father's character and the gift of the Holy Spirit. The sleeping friend is not a type of God — he functions as the lesser pole in a lesser-to-greater argument; identifying him with God is a category error that compromises divine immutability and aseity. Persistence in prayer is grounded in confidence, not desperation — the point is not to wear God down, but to recognize that a God who is not reluctant, not asleep, and not inconvenienced will give all the more freely. The a fortiori (lesser-to-greater) structure is the interpretive key — Jesus deliberately invokes cognitive dissonance through an imperfect analogy so that the contrast reveals something about God's character that a direct statement could not. Ask, seek, knock are present-tense imperatives in Greek — they denote continuous action, matched by divine passives in the promises, meaning God himself is the subject acting behind every answer. The promise is absolute within its covenantal frame — "everyone who asks receives" is not a blank check, but a promise spoken to disciples praying according to God's revealed will, in the name of the Son, by the help of the Spirit. The passage has a redemptive-historical dimension — it sits within Luke's travel narrative where Jesus is forming the disciples' inner life as He moves toward the very cross that makes the Spirit gift of verse 13 possible. Key Concepts The Sleeping Friend Is Not God One of the most persistent misreadings of this parable is the identification of the reluctant, sleeping friend with God — as though Jesus were teaching that dogged repetition in prayer will eventually wear down a half-willing deity. Jesse is careful to reject this firmly on both exegetical and theological grounds. The sleeping friend functions as the lesser pole of a rabbinic a fortiori argument: a flawed, inconvenienced human who still yields to legitimate need. James 1:17 seals the case — the Father is one "with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change." An immutable God cannot be represented by a changeable, reluctant figure. The friend's reluctance is not a window into God's character; it is a foil designed to make God's willing generosity shine all the brighter by contrast. Persevering Prayer Is Grounded in Confidence, Not Doubt A common application drawn from this parable is essentially motivational: don't give up, pray harder, keep going. While there is something right about that call to perseverance, Jesse argues it is being drawn from the wrong well. Biblical perseverance in prayer is not rooted in uncertainty about whether God might eventually come around. It is rooted in the certainty that He already has — that He is a Father who delights to give, who is not asleep, not inconvenienced, and not reluctant. This re-centers the entire posture of prayer. We are not beggars hoping against hope that a distant God notices us. We are covenant children running with confidence into the throne room of a Father who has already given us His Son and, supremely, His Spirit. The Covenantal Frame of the Promise The sweeping promise — "everyone who asks receives" — has tripped up many readers who take it as an unconditional divine guarantee for anything sincerely prayed. Jesse is careful to locate the promise within its literary and canonical context. It is spoken to disciples who have just been taught to pray "Your kingdom come... give us... forgive us... lead us not" — prayers shaped by God's revealed will and kingdom priorities. James 4 and John's Gospel reinforce the point: prayer that does not receive has asked wrongly or outside God's will. The Westminster Confession of Faith (Chapter 21) frames acceptable prayer as offered in the name of the Son, by the help of the Spirit, according to His will — a tripod of covenantal orientation that, far from weakening the promise, gives it its full and glorious force. Memorable Quotes We draw that persistence not out of our own willingness, not even because God might encourage us, but we should be drawn to it as a representation of His character — of in fact who He is. Jesus is not commending 'wear God down with nagging' as a technique. He's having established that even flawed human reluctance eventually yields to a legitimate need pressed persistently — and he pivots to make the positive direct application: how much more freely and immediately will the Father, who is not reluctant, not asleep, not inconvenienced, give? Even the seeking, even the knocking, even the opening that will be done for you and unto you and on your behalf is from God the Father himself. Full Transcript [00:01:03] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 504 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast for the persistent prayers Hey, brothers and sisters. We have got something a little bit different for you on this episode. Tony will be back with me next week, and we will be continuing our journey through the parables. [00:01:27] And I thought while we anxiously await for his return, that we would set up the next parable that we're gonna talk about so we can hit all the major points together. So we're gonna be hanging out in Luke chapter 11, and we're talking about the parable of persistent prayer, or as I think Tony described it, the parable of the midnight friend. [00:01:47] You can choose whichever one you like. But before you do that, if in fact you miss Tony, here's a good way to fill that need, and that is you should go to the Reformed Brotherhood website. That's reformedbrotherhood.com. And you will [00:02:00] find all of the other podcast episodes living out there. They're all searchable by topic. [00:02:05] Everything we've recorded is right there for you. These some 10 years of lovely conversations with my brother Tony are all available for you. And while you're there, you might be thinking, "How is it that all this is so freely given?" Well, as you've heard us say before, that's because so many lovely brothers and sisters come alongside with a little bit of financial support to make sure all of the hosting and editing and distribution fees are all covered so that this can all be made available to whoever, whoever is searching for it, whoever finds it, whoever wants to join in the conversation and follow closely along with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. [00:02:41] So I encourage you to go check that out and also listen along. This will be a quick episode just to help us get our bearings on this really amazing teaching that Jesus gives us about the character of God that comes about in really a kind of unexpected story. And in fact, even the message itself, [00:03:00] the context, I think, is going to sound at first like one thing, but Jesus uses it to describe something entirely different. [00:03:07] Even the literary device He's about to use for us invokes some kind of cognitive dissonance that actually draws us deeper into the character of God than I think if He had explained it more directly. I mean, this is what parables do, loved ones. So come hang out with me in Luke chapter 11 for just a couple minutes. [00:03:24] Wherever you are, join me in this. I'm gonna read from the beginning part of that chapter all the way through the parable, though we will get nowhere near the end, because I told you, I'm saving that for Tony. We're gonna get there next week. So join me in Luke chapter 11, beginning in verse one.  [00:03:39] Luke 11 Reading and Structure [00:03:39] Jesse Schwamb: "And it happened that while Jesus was praying in a certain place, after He had finished, one of His disciples said to Him, 'Lord, teach us to pray, just as John also taught his disciples.' [00:03:51] And He said to them, 'When you pray, say: Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread [00:04:00] and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.'" Then he said to them, "Which of you has a friend and will go to him at midnight and say to him, 'Friend, lend me three loaves, for a friend of mine has come to me from a journey, and I have nothing to set before him.' [00:04:21] And from inside he answers and says, 'Do not bother me. The door has already been shut, and my children and I are in bed. I cannot rise up and give you anything.' I tell you, even though he will not arise and give him anything because he is his friend, yet because of his persistence, he will get up and give him as much as he needs. [00:04:40] So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks, it will be opened. But what father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead of [00:05:00] a fish? [00:05:00] Or if his son asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him?" This amazing little pericope, you'll notice it follows upon the disciples' request, which is, "Lord, teach us to pray." [00:05:24] And the giving of this model prayer is the whole instruction, the whole, like outcropping of this entire little parable. And I think what we should look at first, that I wanna really hit on to set us up, is that Luke has this... It seems to me like a structure that's very deliberate. There's a pattern. The Lord's Prayer, which leads to this parable of encouragement. [00:05:45] Here's the friend at midnight. It leads then to a promise, ask, seek, knock, which then of course leads to this ground of confidence. Why? Because the Father's character, sealed in the gift of the Holy Spirit, has been given to His children. This whole thing [00:06:00] occurs within Luke's central, like quote-unquote, "travel narrative." [00:06:04] It's where Jesus is forming the disciples' inner life. He's teaching them in these really final moments of His life. It's prayer, dependence, kingdom priorities, as He literally moves toward Jerusalem and to the cross. And so I think the biblical exegesis here takes this placement really seriously, because this is not like free-floating wisdom teaching, but it's real discipleship. [00:06:28] It's real firm instruction given by the Messiah en route to accomplish the very redemption that makes the Spirit gift of verse 13 possible. All of this is wrapped up in this story. It is not just about what's being said, but I think literally where it's being said, the context in which it's being said, the very interactions that are taking place around the story itself. [00:06:50] And I cannot help but believe that, of course, God in His foreordaining wisdom is placing this all together. It's as if the experience of the disciples, their time with [00:07:00] Jesus, them literally walking en route to the place where He'll be crucified, all this gets distilled down into a single point in history, and the instruction that is on Jesus' lips is this story about the midnight friend I think we've talked about this before, but there's some principles here that I always go back to, and I think they're especially relevant for looking at this particular parable. [00:07:22] First, there's this understanding that this, there's an analogy of scripture. Like, this text should be read alongside its Matthean para- parallel, which we've talked about briefly, and the whole canon's teaching on prayer, on providence, on the Spirit. We can't look at this instance in complete isolation. We shouldn't. [00:07:39] It-- That wouldn't be proper understanding of the whole passage here, including its redemptive historical reading, which I think is important. It's the second piece here. The passage is suited and situated within this unfolding covenant of grace. This Father language is not like generic theism, but it is like the covenantal Trinitarian Christ-mediated, like all the [00:08:00] rich fullness of what God has done in the redemptive arc of salvation. [00:08:04] It's prayer offered in the name of the Son as we are sons or daughters in the Son. And so there's this light then to heavy inference. Like Jesus' argument, which I think we'll talk about with Tony, in verse eight is this kind of like rab- rabbinic like fortiori reasoning. It's, it's from like the lesser to the greater, or the, the lesser reluctant or flawed party that acts in one way, and how much more the greater than will the willing perfect party act. [00:08:36] And so, so many commentators have really flagged this as like the interpretive key to the unit. This is the thing that draws us in. It's actually this juxtaposition, this cognitive dissonance, this seeing one thing and recognizing that God is so much better than that one thing and so much far beyond it, that really draws us into understanding something about His character that would not be made manifest to us without that kind of comparison or [00:09:00] that setup. [00:09:01] And then, of course, we're Reformed, so we have to talk about the element of sola Scriptura here, that we really, we have to read this passage not as teaching either that God is manipulable by human persistence. I mean, that would com- compromise entirely the, the principles of divine aseity and His immutability. [00:09:20] Or B, that there's some kind of like bare Arminian conditionality here, as though prayer creates possibilities God otherwise lacks. Really, the Bible holds, biblical theology holds that prayer is to be a means that God has sovereignly ordained to accomplish His decreed ends. It's never a lever upon which, you know, otherwise an undecided God acts because we pull. [00:09:46] It's not that at all. So let's talk about just a couple of verses that I think will get us in the vibe here, in the jam, in the middle of this whole parable, and this will set us up for a conversation that we're gonna have next week, which is the culmination, the giving of the [00:10:00] Holy Spirit. That's really the end. [00:10:01] So it's interesting that we start with this whole idea of persistence, of a friend coming with, and it's gonna end with God giving to His children this incredible, unparalleled gift of the Holy Spirit. So let's start in verse five. We get this whole setup. "Which of you has a friend and will go to him at midnight?" [00:10:20] So of course, like, you-- we hear this, hear this in English, it's even more profound in the Greek. The construction here is like this rhetorical question. It's expecting, of course, the hearer, which is you and I, to place ourselves imaginatively in the position of the petitioner. And the scenario is, of course, like pregnant with cultural meaning. [00:10:38] Like, it's just loaded down because in Middle Eastern cultures, of course, like hospita- hospitality was a matter of covenantal honor. I say it that way because I think that's what's at play for us in the text. We're gonna get these, like, themes, this, like, little bit of shading or, like, this, this little taste on the back end of your tongue of the covenant, and it's represented [00:11:00] here even in, like, the situation here. [00:11:01] Because failing to feed an arrived guest was a social and religious disgrace, not merely to the host, but, like, to their entire community, to, like, their entire village And the petitioner has no bread, and he's looking for three loaves because that's what he needs to help feed these guests that have arrived at his house. [00:11:19] And so he comes to a friend. Notice it's not a stranger, so the relationship itself is somewhat covenantal. It's emphasized three times in the verses five through eight. And so we're establishing the premise upon which the argument from the lesser, this friendship, which is reluctantly acted upon, to the greater, which is fatherhood, gladly acted upon, will be built up so that it reaches the peak in verse thirteen I think we need to notice here that this is not some kind of isolated moral vignette, but it's like the first rung of a ladder that's being built for us here. [00:11:55] And the first rung on this, I think, is that Christ accommodates himself [00:12:00] to human experience, which is like a mind-boggling statement. I mean, we could spend all of eternity just contemplating what that means. It's certainly a la Philippians 2, but here in, especially we're seeing that there's the use of this imperfect analogy precisely because it's, its imperfection. [00:12:19] Again, a friend who is reluctant will be highlighted against in contrast to the perfection of the true referent, which is God the Father, a father who is not reluctant. And so this doctrine of accommodation is a standard, uh, that you see a lot in Reformed exeg- as a exegetical principle because it's Scripture speaks of God in creaturely terms, not because God is like the creature, but so that the creature may grasp, however inaccurately, the character of God. [00:12:50] That's what's really lovely about this parable. That's what I think kind of sits underneath the, the surface here. And so many of us wanna run to the action of the petitioner [00:13:00] here and try to equate or invoke something about that persistence as if God is saying to us like, "Please don't give up. Please keep on praying. [00:13:07] Please bend my ear." And while there is something important about that, we draw that persistence not out of our own willingness, not even because God might encourage us, but we should be drawn to it as a representation of his character, of in fact who he is. And so the friend who is reluctant responds very forthrightly with a, "Don't bother me." [00:13:28] And I find when I read this, I kind of chuckle a little bit because, loved ones, is that refusal not completely realistic? Like, it's not caricatured malice. In, in like a one-room peasant house, the door being barred and the family being bedded down on a single sleeping mat meant that practically speaking, rising would wake the entire household. [00:13:49] I mean, the friend's refusal is totally understandable, but still a refusal of a friend to a friend for a legitimate n-need. And so this is the negative pole of the entire analogy. [00:14:00] I also find this, like, totally relatable. Like, even in my own life when I'm serving my own needs and purposes, if I am on like the-- If I've descended, let's say, to like the first floor of my house, and I remember that after getting ready for the day, I've totally forgotten something on the second floor, I'm annoyed with myself. [00:14:17] Sometimes I literally have that thought of like, "How badly do I need that thing? I just don't want to go back upstairs again." And so I think this is totally identifiable I mean, how often have we been in a situation where we- we've just sat down and the phone rings, or we've just finished our day and something else pops up that we have to do, or we just shut down our computer and we've-- as we do that, we remember the one thing that we needed to do, and so we have to go back in. [00:14:40] Or you leave your office and realize that you've forgotten your car keys, now you have to walk all the way back in. I mean, I-- this makes total sense to me that in this, the context of this story, even a loving friend would be like, "Are you kidding me? Uh, we're all in bed. Please, can you just figure out another way to do this?" [00:14:59] I know [00:15:00] there's been a lot of commentators, and I think like a lot of popular preaching, that in my estimation here have mistakenly identified the sleeping friend with God, teaching that persistent prayer, like, wears God down. And that, I think, is a category error that the Reformed tradition and biblical theology generally has consistently rejected. [00:15:21] You know, that's why we read in James 1:17 that every good gift comes from the Father with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. The immutable God cannot be the referent or the reluctant changeable human host here, not according to James. The friend in the parable functions as the lesser term, and again, this argument moving from the lesser to the greater, not as a type of God. [00:15:45] I think that's important for us to keep in mind because there is, again, a temptation for us to want to say, "Well, really the person in the story who is represented by God is this other friend, and he just needs to be awoken," so to speak. And even if we don't feel that strongly, th- that's pressing us a little bit too [00:16:00] far, we, we know theologically that that's not accurate. [00:16:02] We still are prone to believe, "I need to pray harder." The point of this is to pick yourself up, pull up your praying socks, and just pray more and pray more consistently and pray harder. Don't stop. Now, there is, again, something about calling on God that is like the special benefit and privilege of the Christian to run confidently into the throne room of God as we read in Hebrews. [00:16:25] And yet at the same time here, we don't want to get this twisted. We have to set this up right so that by the time we get to, again, the pinnacle of this parable in th-- in Jesus giving the crown teaching of the giving of the Holy Spirit, that we understand it's because God is a good Father who delights to give, who is not reluctant at all. [00:16:46] And that if you ask, if you ask for His Holy, Holy, Holy Spirit, that He will in fact give His Holy Spirit to you. So verse eight: "I tell you, though, he will not get up and give him anything because he is his [00:17:00] friend. Yet because of his imprudence, he will rise and give him whatever he needs." Now, the crux of this question is the referent here. [00:17:11] So traditionally rendered, you know, inopportune or inopportunity or persistence. The word literally denotes like shamelessness or refusal to be governed by some kind of social propriety. And I think either way here, the theological payload in verses nine through thirteen is all about the main point of this passage being but a foil. [00:17:31] You know, Jesus is not commending wear God down with nagging as a technique. He's, he's having established that even flawed human reluctance eventually yields to a legitimate need pressed persistently. And so he pivots in this to make the positive direct application, how much more freely and immediately will the Father, who is not reluctant, not asleep, not inconvenienced, give? [00:17:57] And so this verse does [00:18:00] teach persevering in prayer, but it grounds that perseverance not in doubt about God's willingness, but in confidence about it. This to me is very similar to how we would understand evangelism or missional or missionary type works. There is a type of Christianity that is very thin, that is maybe like a, a mile wide and an inch deep, that essentially considers that when we pray for God to work among peoples, in our families, in our communities, across the land, and across the world, that we do so almost with fingers crossed, hoping against hope that God will show up and make a way. [00:18:38] And yet what the scripture says is it emboldens us knowing that God has already done these things, that we might pray ourselves, as it were, into them in faithfulness to what God has already in-- is accomplishing through his great work. And in this way, we pray with a great empowerment. We pray with persevering prayers because we know that God will make it so because he's a God who gives promises, [00:19:00] and he always fulfills those promises. [00:19:03] And that's why we get three of them, which are beautiful in this passage.  [00:19:07] Ask Seek Knock Explained [00:19:07] Jesse Schwamb: Ask, seek, knock. Ask and it will be given to you. Seek and you will find. Knock and it will be opened to you, for everyone who asks, receives. Loved ones, are there more beautiful words than these from God the Father? This is how much he loves us that he says, "Test me on these promises. [00:19:28] In persevering prayer, come before me, ask, seek, and knock." These three present tense imperatives in the Greek, Greek. In other words, keep asking, keep seeking, keep knocking. The present tense is conveying this continuous action. They're matched by the three future passives here, and the passives are almost certainly divine passives. [00:19:51] In other words, like it's a Jer- Jewish circumlocution, avoiding the direct naming of God as subject out of reverence, which of course, is common in Jesus' [00:20:00] teaching. But what's being unstated here is the subject acting within them. It will be given. It will be opened. Who is doing all these things? God himself. [00:20:10] And so behind these beautiful words, this promise to you and to me, is God in filling them all, so that again, God does all the words. It's as if like he's saying to us, "Seek, knock, and open." And yet even the seeking, even the knocking, even the opening that will be done for you and unto you and on your behalf is from God, the Father himself. [00:20:32] And the escalation from asking to seeking to knocking, in my view, it intensifies this effort and this urgency. Like a beggar asks, one who has lost something seeks, one who shuts, is shut out knocks on the door. And it's, I think, denoting not necessarily like three distinct kinds of prayer, though there are certainly lots of people who have talked about that. [00:20:56] The Patristics in particular, uh, Augustine was very fond [00:21:00] of kind of delineating between these as different types of prayer. I think there, there may be some usefulness in that. But I think the dominant grammatical point is this cumulative intensity. It's reinforced in verse 10 by this chiastic restatement in universal terms. [00:21:14] Everyone who asks, the one who seeks, to the one who knocks, all of these things will be given. This is the beautiful setup that's before us. It's an incredible word from God for us, practical for daily living, to give strength for today and a hope for tomorrow, that our God is one who gives us this promise. [00:21:34] And then he says, in perseverance, with the power that the Holy Spirit enables all of us, seek, ask, seek, knock. What lovely verbs for us to participate in by the power of the Holy Spirit Everyone who asks receives. I, I don't think that can be read as an unconditional blank check. And this is, I think, what trips many people up. [00:21:57] And, and certainly you've had conversations, [00:22:00] I'm sure, with others who've said, "Well, this sounds like some kind of just open-ended promise. There's no closed end to this. And so if I pray for something that I want, maybe if I pray for the thing that I feel like I desperately need, if I put all of my effort into it and pray with all the emotion, and I have, and every concentrated effort of my mental being, and God does not give that to me, it, this proves this passage to be wrong or to be ineffective." [00:22:27] And I think this would contradict directly, again, what James tells us in chapter 4, "You ask and do not receive because you ask wrongly." Or John in his gospel, "If we ask anything according to His will." And so I think proper hermeneutics here resolves this not by weakening the promise, but by locating it properly within, again, its covenantal frame. [00:22:53] This promise is spoken to disciples who have just been taught to pray, "Your kingdom come, give [00:23:00]us, forgive us, lead us not." That is, it's a prayer conformed to God's revealed, revealed will and kingdom priorities. I think the Westminster Confession of Faith is particularly strong on this in chapter 21. It qualifies acceptable prayer as being offered in the name of the Son, by the help of the Spirit, according to His will. [00:23:22] What again, like lovely things to help shape us even as we go into times of daily worship, that we might seek to pray to God in the name of the Son, by the help of the Spirit, according to His will. I find in my own prayer life, in my own journey of speaking with God, and of trying to listen to Him as well, that I am much better aligned, that start in the better places, that there is more compatibility, so to speak, when I consider, even before I pray literally, that I might do that in the name of the Son, by the help of the Spirit, according to His will. [00:23:56] By the way, I love that in Ruth- Luther's writing on prayer, [00:24:00] he speaks so highly of what it means to pray in the name of the Son. That that isn't something that we just, of course, put as a suffix onto our prayers to signal that they are concluded. For some reason, when I was younger, I remember thinking that when you said at the end of the prayer, "In Jesus' name," it was like you were talking to somebody on the phone, and that's how you hung up. [00:24:20] Because if you forgot to say that, then God might think you were, like, as you went about your life and you were talking to other people, that you were also talking to Him, and that would be confusing. And so of course, like I, since grown out of that and realized that this is not something just out of custom. [00:24:33] It's not even saying like, "Amen, agree with me." This is a way about an, an explicit, standing in the explicit covenantal promise of God that is bound in the work of, the finished work of His Son, Jesus Christ. And that when we invoke His name, we shouldn't do so even flippantly as we end a prayer. But knowing that that's not just like the grand kind of crescendo of everything that we're saying, but we are sealing it as it were, so that we might again pray in the name of the Son, [00:25:00] by the help of the Holy Spirit, according to His will. [00:25:03] And that promise of verse 10 is absolute within that frame. It's not an absolute, like, simplifier. You know, this is not special pleading, but simply reading the verse in its literary context. It's a unit that begins with the Lord's Prayer and ends with the gift of the Spirit. And its canonical context is according with the rest of the New Testament in this idea that this is what prayer really is. [00:25:29] It is praying in such a way that we are invoking God, not so that He would come and condescend to our needs or meet us where we're at. He's already done this very thing, which is why He's a good Father who gives us gifts. Instead, it is that we might l- meet the Lord in His purposes, according to His power, with His perspective. [00:25:49] And so this is the, the ladder that's being built for us. It starts with this idea of saying, you know, there's this universality qualifier, the Reformed [00:26:00] doctrinal caution, as it were, that not-- "You ask and do not receive because you ask wrongly." That itself is a challenge that we should all take very, very seriously. [00:26:09] So I'm gonna stop us there, because what I'm really looking forward to speaking to Tony with next week is basically the, the rest of it, really coming into the second rung of this ladder, this human fathers and their children, which sets up a now... We're really transitioning into the setup on this reluctant friend, the lesser, to this great, loving, not reluctant at all, but lovishly la- Man, I just got two words at the same time in one mouth. [00:26:37] This loving Father who lavishes this love upon us, and proof in the pudding in that is the promises which He gives us. And so I wanna save that for next time. So now you've been warned. You yourself can go back and take a look at Luke chapter 11. You can join us there for the culmination and the conclusion of [00:27:00] this little parable. [00:27:01] And again, I encourage you, go check out reformedbrotherhood.com. Go find us on Telegram, which is just a messaging app, and we have a small little corner of the internet where there's a community of listeners who hang out, support one another, are very kind and loving toward one another, and you can be a part of that group too just by going to t.me/reformedbrotherhood. [00:27:21] Slap that bad boy into your browser of choice, t.me/reformedbrotherhood. And until next time, honor everyone and love the brotherhood. [00:28:00]
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  Luke 10 and Self-Justification: Why the Lawyer Could Never Win 28.08.2026 1h 6min

  In episode 503 of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb conclude their deep dive into Luke 10:25–37 — the Parable of the Good Samaritan. Far from a simple morality tale about helping strangers, this episode unpacks the parable's confrontational legal context, its reversal of expectation, and its profound Christological undertones. Tony and Jesse examine why the lawyer's question about self-justification was always destined to be unanswerable on his own terms, how the priest and Levite serve as a damning mirror for religious professionals, and why the Samaritan's lavish, costly mercy points beyond mere ethics to the gospel itself. The episode also explores the Mary and Martha account that immediately follows, arguing it cannot be read in isolation. Closing with Matthew Henry, the hosts land the discussion squarely on gratitude for Christ, the supreme Good Neighbor. Key Takeaways The parable is fundamentally about self-justification, not mercy ministry. The lawyer's question — "Who is my neighbor?" — is a legal maneuver, and Jesus' answer exposes the impossibility of fulfilling the law through self-effort rather than merely defining the scope of neighborly obligation. Jesus reverses the expected identification of "the neighbor." The listener naturally assumes the beaten man is the neighbor to be loved, but the punchline identifies the Samaritan — the one who showed mercy — as the neighbor, redirecting the question from who must I love to what does love actually look like. The Samaritan's mercy is deliberately, impossibly lavish. His actions — binding wounds, providing transport, paying an open-ended debt for a stranger and likely an enemy — exceed anything a reasonable person would do, pointing to a mercy that transcends mere human virtue. The priest and Levite indict religious professionalism. Their failure is not incidental; it demonstrates that meticulous law observance and ceremonial religiosity can actually obstruct the very love the law commands, hollowing out its spirit while preserving its form. The parable functions under all three uses of the law. For the unregenerate, it terrifies and condemns. For the regenerate, it is a third-use call to Spirit-empowered, grateful obedience. As civil law, it commends a society of compassion over indifference. Christ is the typological Good Neighbor. The Samaritan's actions — pouring oil and wine, bearing the cost, promising to return and settle all debts — carry genuine Christological resonance without requiring a full allegorical reading of every detail. The immediately following Mary and Martha account is thematically inseparable. Luke's editorial placement of that narrative directly after the parable creates a deliberate counterpoint: the one thing necessary is not anxious service but sitting at the feet of Jesus. Key Concepts The Lawyer's Question Was Never Going to Work The lawyer who approaches Jesus in Luke 10 is not a neutral inquirer — he is, as Luke tells us, seeking to justify himself. Tony and Jesse explore what this means with precision: the desire to be justified is not inherently wrong, but the mechanism the lawyer employs — the law — is catastrophically insufficient for the task. When Jesus responds with the parable, he does not sidestep the legal framework; he weaponizes it. The Samaritan's mercy is so extravagant, so far beyond ordinary moral expectation, that it functions not as an achievable standard but as a devastating exposure of how far short every human attempt at law-keeping falls. The command "go and do likewise" is not an encouraging send-off — it is, for the self-justifying lawyer, a door slamming shut. The Samaritan's Mercy Is Intentionally Beyond Reach One of the most important contributions this episode makes is resisting the domestication of the Samaritan's actions into a feel-good story about helping those in need. Tony reframes the scenario in contemporary terms: finding a gravely injured stranger from a hostile ethnic group, providing emergency first aid, transporting them to care, and writing a blank check for all future medical expenses — with no personal obligation to do so. No reasonable person would do this, and that is exactly the point. The mercy described is not aspirationally difficult; it is humanly inconceivable at scale. This is what Christ-like love looks like, and it is precisely what the law demands. The gap between the demand and human capacity is the gospel's entry point. The Mary and Martha Account Cannot Be Separated from the Parable Tony raises a hermeneutical observation that deserves more attention than it typically receives: Luke chose to place the Mary and Martha account immediately after the Good Samaritan parable, and that editorial decision is not accidental. Martha — busy with hospitality and service — looks, on the surface, like the practical application of everything the Samaritan modeled. Yet she is gently rebuked, and Mary, who sits at Jesus' feet, is commended for choosing "the one thing necessary." This creates a stunning theological counterweight: the parable exposes the impossibility of self-justifying law-keeping, and the very next story shows that even well-intentioned merciful activity, when it crowds out receiving from Christ, misses the point. The one thing necessary is always Christ himself. Memorable Quotes If you think you're the good Samaritan, if you think you're the one that's gonna come and rescue people — you're much more likely to see this as a sort of law beat-down. Where those of us who are regenerated and in Christ, this is third-use law. This is us seeing what it means to be holy, and going and doing likewise, trying in our power, recognizing that we can't, and trusting the Lord to accept our feeble attempts. - Tony Arsenal This text is not really to be preached or applied as some kind of bare moral exhortation. It's not 'try harder to be like the Samaritan.' That's totally disconnected from the gospel. It should be preached in a manner that exposes the impossibility of self-justification... and then of course it does point us to Christ as the one whose perfect, costly, self-giving mercy alone satisfies the law's demand on our behalf. - Jesse Schwamb If this parable and our conversation about it does nothing except stirring you to gratitude for the fact that our supreme good neighbor threw us on his donkey and carried us to the public house, and bound up our wounds, and paid for our debt — if it does nothing but drive you to gratitude and thankfulness and wonder, then we've succeeded in our task and we've left you with the Gospel. - Tony Arsenal Full Transcript Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 503 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brother.  Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. Well, at this point, there's one thing that we know for certain, and that is if you're gonna come at the law giver, the one who's composed and written the law, with a legal question to try to entrap the one who has given you the law, you better not miss. And it turns out, in Luke 10 where we've been hanging out, the lawyer who poses Jesus with the question of, "Who is my neighbor?" is a big swing and a miss. Yeah. And we're finally gonna get to all the characters that are part of this amazing parable in this conversation. But of course, there's something we gotta do first. Affirmations And Denials Jesse Schwamb: It, it's everybody's, what I'm led to believe everybody's favorite segment of this entire show. I mean, the crowds out there say, "Why even have a full podcast? Just do affirmations and denials for the entire time." And we, we hear you, because we're borrowing from that beautiful confessional format of the dead reformers to settle all the much not confessional [00:02:00] disputes. So in the great tradition of the Westminster Divines, who of course cannot just simply say, "We like grace," without also clarifying 17 things that grace is not- ... we're now again going to bring you our own binding, authoritative, and entirely unneeded but very official statement of affirmations and denials. It's affirming the things we love and denying things we don't. So Tony, as is our own custom, are you affirming with something or are you denying against something on this episode?  Tony Arsenal: Um, I'm denying something. Uh, it's a sort of a weird situation that has cropped up, uh, online. And I, I try not to use this segment too often to sort of wade into, um, I don't know, the, like, latest social controversy in the Reformed world. But every once in a while I come across something that I feel like you just need to sort of talk about. And, um, many of our listeners are probably already [00:03:00] aware of the situation that I'm gonna talk about, and it's very well-publicized and, and very public. Um, but I'm denying the sort of weirdness that has happened with the G3 Conference. Um, I'm not sure how familiar with G3 you are, Jesse, but for the, the listener who may not be, G3 is a conference, um, primarily run by Baptists, and is, in my understanding, is primarily attended by sort of Reformed-ish Baptists. And I don't, I don't say Reformed-ish to be pejorative necessarily. Um, but it, it's sort of like predominantly, um Non-confessional but not anti-confessional Calvinistic Baptists, sort of think more like covenant framework MacArthur-style Baptists maybe is, is a way to look at it. Um, and a few years ago, one of their main figures, I don't remember exactly what position he held, but it was a relatively high position in, in [00:04:00] the conference. Uh, his name was Josh Boyce. He, uh, w- was caught/confessed to maintaining, like, multiple anonymous or pseudonymous, uh, Twitter accounts and publishing several s- like pseudonym-based Substacks, um, that he used to basically attack the character of not only anyone online that seemed to cross him, but, like, people that he shared an office with. Like, anyone and everyone was targeted by him. And at the time it was a big hullabaloo. He, uh, he resigned. As far as I can tell, he's faded into obscurity and has not sought to come back, although that's always, you know, yet to be seen. But at the time there was very firm statements by the r- remaining sort of board members, leadership of G3, at how inappropriate this was, and how acting anonymously requi- you know, sort of evacuates accountability and, [00:05:00]and all these different things. And it's come out recently, um, just over the last week, that four of the members of the G3 board, um, who are all elders at the same church, had assembled a sort of anonymous dossier of accusations against, um, a- another pastor, uh, that he had been sort of serially plagiarizing sermons. Um, and when nothing really happened when they sent their anonymous dossier, they started distributing this to other, other, like, platforms and other church and m- parachurch ministries, kind of encouraging people to do their own investigation. Um, one such, uh, outlet was ... It's a, it's a, I don't know, sort of a news discernment blogger kind of a thing, um, has done some pretty decent reporting work I think in, in the recent past, although it has sort of a s- storied beginning, um, called Protestia They did just [00:06:00] that. They did an investigation, and in the course of their investigation, they identified who these anonymous, uh, the anonymous reporters were, and it was the same, the very same people who a few years ago, uh, pontificated, uh, at, at length about the importance of accountability and how anonymity has, uh, taken that away. Uh, people that accepted Josh Boyce's resi- resignation for acting anonymously have now done the same thing. They have since, uh, resigned from their church eldership, um, which is gonna be awkward because they haven't resigned from the board of G3, which, uh, the offices of G3 are in the same building as the church that they've now resigned at. Uh, and I guess where, where my denial comes in and the reason that I feel like it, it might be worthwhile for us just to Even reflect on it a little bit is there is an element in the Reformed world that seeks a platform and seeks an audience and seeks notoriety, and I, I was musing [00:07:00] today a little bit on my own Twitter that th- there was a time in my life where that was very much what I wanted. I wanted to be a, a very public, well-known theological voice, and, um, a- and I just have sort of like drifted away from that. And the, the reason I think it's worth mentioning on our show is that we do have an audience. We have a, a modest audience. It's not huge. It's not nothing. Um, but th- there is a real temptation to seek fame and notoriety that is absolutely destructive and really antithetical to, uh, to Christian principles of what it means to serve those around you, to serve with humility, to r- you know, redound any glory that might come to you for your actions to, to the fact that it is Christ who empowers all things and brings all good blessings. So I don't know that I have much more commentary on it. It's just a weird... It's a very weird situation, but it, it seems like it very much has come from a [00:08:00] place of feeling as though minor slights by people you associate with warrant sort of a, a nuclear option like this because, uh... and I don't wanna read too much into motives, but, but it seems like because your reputation and your notoriety is so great that any offense to it needs to be responded to in kind, and that's just not, that's just not the Christian way. So again, I don't know that I have any more commentary or thoughts on it. It just was a weird situation that I'm, I'm like, "Why do we gotta do this to each other, folks?" Like, why are we, why are we biting at each other all the time? Why are we doing these things except from a place of sinful pride? So I'm denying that. I'm denying sinful pride. I'm denying my own tendencies to seek glory in a spotlight. Um, I'm very thankful that God did not, uh, see fit to grant me that desire 'cause it probably would've been even more destructive for me than it has been for these guys. So I'm very happy to live in obscurity, [00:09:00] to serve the local church, to share our voices in this very modest, tiny platform that we have, and perhaps the Lord will see fit to change that one direction or the other, and I'll, I'll be happy to serve at His, uh, at His will. But I'm glad for now that, uh, the, the temptation of international fame has not been something that I even have the opportunity to lay hold of. Um, I'm very thankful for that, that, uh, grace from the Lord.  Jesse Schwamb: I had that light, sarcastic, some might say somewhat humorous opening and affirmations and denials, and you, you just brought the heaviness, which is okay. Sometimes that's, sometimes that's what happens.  Lament Devotional Spotlight Jesse Schwamb: And- Yeah ... I- fortunately, I have an affirmation, but it's, uh, of, like, a weird, heavy kind now that I think about it. So, um, I'm trying to, I'm trying to get everybody on the cusp of good books that I think are coming out. And so here's another one where it's not even gonna be released until September 30th, and so you have plenty of time to go out and find this thing. So P&R Publishing, many may be [00:10:00] familiar, does this whole series, topical series, which are called 31-Day Devotionals for Life, and there's a new one being released by Christine Chappell. It's called Lament: Crying Out in Faith. So I'm affirming with this piece because I've had the joy of been working through some of this stuff, and I think this is some of the best treatment I've ever read, been able to practice, been coached into for lamenting. We've talked before at length about how Christians, especially in the West, often because we just have great lives, we aren't familiar with lament. We don't practice it well. We hardly sing any songs of lament. We're unfamiliar with it. It's like a foreign land to us. And then sometimes when we're, we get convicted we should lament, we kind of interpret that as, "Well, yeah, I, I know I can blow up at God. I can get angry with him and, and that's okay." David does it too, and it's okay to express all your feelings with God. What I like about this work is it cultivates more of a prayer language. It gives voice to pain and grief so that there can be a real healing. It's not just a complaining. It's not just [00:11:00] throwing your voice out into the ether to, you know, wildly pontificate or self-aggrandize about how hurt or upset you are. It enables us to cry out to God in such a way that it promotes emotional authenticity, but at the same time maintains reverence. I think that is, uh, at least what I need. The beauty of this book is somebody you know or yourself need to lament something. Actually, I think we all have something to lament, even as it's getting older or things changing in our lives. So I highly, highly, highly affirm with this book. It's Lament: Crying Out in Faith. P&R does a lot of great publishing in this way. It's just the year of the devotionals, Tony. I don't know why. Yeah. I mean, I even hate to use devotional. It's the year of good resources for daily praise and worship- Yeah ... and lament should be part of our praise and worship. Yeah. So, but doing it in the right way is something I'm learning. I had mixed understanding of it. So this will clarify, encourage, edify in all the ways that I think we need.  Tony Arsenal: That sounds great. I, I do agree with you. I think, um- [00:12:00] Although I think it may be a little bit less so in, in the sort of confessional Reformed tradition just because the Psalms in general play such a prominent role in Reformed worship. Um, I do agree with you that broadly, like, we, we in the Western evangelical w- world don't, we don't know how to do laments. Um, I'm not one of those people that would say im- imprecatory prayers are inappropriate. I know there are some even within the Reformed world that would say im- imprecatory prayers are not appropriate for God's people in, in the new covenant. Um, I don't know that I agree with that, but, but that's another example of, like, that's in the prayer and hymnbook of our people- Right ... and we don't really know how to do it. Yes. So, and, and imprecation and lament are very closely related to each other. They're, they're very similar, um, ways of thinking and they're, they're both kind of modes of prayer that, uh, we don't, we don't really engage in. And so when we do have- when the occasion arises, we're, like, out of practice. So that's a great, uh, a great [00:13:00]affirmation and yeah, a little, a little weirdly heavy. Maybe this is gonna be a, a weirdly heavy episode. Who knows?  Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it very well could be.  Good Samaritan Deep Dive Jesse Schwamb: I mean, listen, it was no doubt heavy for the lawyer who stood up- True who was  Tony Arsenal: like- Nicely done ...  Jesse Schwamb: I'd like to justify myself, so Jesus, let me ask you, we took our question, "Who is my neighbor?" I do all these things. I'm down with the law. Yeah. I know all this stuff. And I think we had some really great conversation last time. I'm biased, but I think we had some really fantastic unpacking of the first part of this, and if you haven't heard that yet, you should go back and listen to episode 502. But in this episode, we're really getting into all of these wonderful and somewhat colorful characters. So I'm gonna pick us back up in Luke chapter 10, starting in verse 25. So I'm going back a little bit just to set that proper context for this amazing parable that Jesus tells us. So he says, "And behold, a scholar of the law stood up and was putting him," that is Jesus, "to the test, saying, 'Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?' And he said to him, 'What is written in the law? How do you [00:14:00] read it?' And he answered and said, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.' And he said to him, 'You have answered correctly. Do this and you will live.' But wishing to justify himself, he said to Jesus, 'And who is my neighbor?' And Jesus replied and said, 'A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho and fell among robbers, and they stripped him and beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. And a priest happened to be going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. Likewise, a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him, and when he saw him, he felt compassion.'" And he came to him and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them, and he put them on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. And on the [00:15:00] next day, he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, "Take care of him, and whatever more you spend, when I return, I will repay you." Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers' hands? And he said, "The one who showed mercy toward him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do the same."  Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, this is one of those parables we, we mentioned, uh, I guess we've invented a new classification of parables called the Big Daddy parables. That's right. Um, uh, this is one of those parables that is so ubiquitous and well-known, uh, that word there, choice there was a little hat tip to my Lutheran friends. Um, so ubiquitous and well-known that I think we actually can, can rush into a common understanding and not, not be right at all about it. And I think the, the way this, uh, uh, the way I've seen this commonly done in, in circles I've run in in the past is this [00:16:00] becomes a parable about mercy ministry. Um, and, and the primary point is about how we serve our neighbors. And I think there certainly is, um, there certainly is an element of that that we can glean from this, that Christ is making a commentary on the fact that, um, the, the, the right way to not only serve your neighbor but to even identify your neighbor, uh, and it's funny because I think this is, this is where I think people go wrong. The, the Samar- or the, um, the, the lawyer is asking, "Who is my neighbor?" Right. And I think we commonly read this, and we read it to say, well, the Samaritan, uh, or the, the guy who got beat up is the neighbor. Right. And so we have to serve our neighbor like the Samaritan did. But the, the, the punchline, whatever, of the story is that the Samaritan is the g- is the neighbor, right? We, we call this the Parable of the Good Samaritan, but we might wanna call it the [00:17:00] Parable of the Good Neighbor. And so it says more about what it means to be a good neighbor than it does to, um, to say about who, who our neighbor necessarily is, right? The, the s- uh, the lawyer was asking, "Who's my neighbor?" And the answer was the one who shows mercy. And there's kind of a weird, there's kind of a weird paradox there, and this is something Jesus commonly does, where, like, He doesn't really answer the question. Um, the, the lawyer is like, "Well, who is it that I have to love," right? "The, I have to love my neighbor as myself, and who is it that I have to love?" And Jesus' answer basically is like, "Well, the good neighbor is the one who showed mercy." Well, that doesn't answer- Right ... His question. So I think we have to be careful when we, uh, we work through this not to just sort of default and jump to what might be called, like, the lowest common denominator interpretation, right? These are things that, yes, um, there is something to say about, uh, mercy ministry and how important it is to serve the, [00:18:00] serve those around us who are in need, right? That's, that's the command that comes out of this or the outcome that comes out of this is Christ is commanding this, um, this lawyer to go and be merciful to others. Um- But if we, if we move too quickly to that, we miss a lot of what this has to say about the nature of justification- Right ... the nature of Christ as, as the capital T good neighbor, right? The, the good neighbor who, who takes care of our sin and pays the debt for us to be restored, right? I don't, like I said last week, I don't think that that is too on the nose. Um, I think we miss the fact that the question, uh, the question is coming from a place, and we talked about this a little bit last week, but and maybe we'll get into it a little more. The question is coming from a place, um, whether you view this negatively, like I think most do, and there's warrant for that, or whether you view it a, a little bit more neutrally or maybe even positively, which is where I land, the desire to justify or to be [00:19:00] justified is not a bad desire. And the, the text doesn't seem to offer a lot of commentary on the fact that the, the, um, lawyer is desiring to justify himself, other than the implied commentary o- of what the parable says about salvation in that someone else needs to save you, so you can't do it yourself in the first place. So I'm excited to get through this. Um, I, I think we're probably gonna be here, we're gonna camp out here for at least another week after this, 'cause there's just so much to this parable. Who knows? Maybe we'll fly through it and it'll be a quick conversation, but I, I don't... That's not really our jam. Um- That's not really what we do But yeah, it, it's, it's a big daddy parable. There's a lot here to unpack.  Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. You're right about that. Interestingly, as always, Jesus flips the law, but here the law flipping, like, ends up smacking you in the face because it does start with this inquiry about just identify for me who my neighbors are. If you give me these discrete instructions like the law has given me to do all these things, which by the way, I mean, even that when we have this lawyer saying, [00:20:00] "I've done all these things. I've identified just for instance that the law includes loving the Lord God with everything, every part of who I am." He says like, "Yeah, I've done all these things." This is, I've already accomplished that. So now let me get, become self-justified in confirming I've done all these things. If you just tell me who the neighbors are, I'll be able to say to you, "Yep, I've already done that." Instead, what happens is Christ says, "Here's what neighborly love looks like. And what it's gonna look like is so dramatic and so shocking that you ought to take pity and have concern and show compassion for those not just who are unlike you, but are, like, abhorrent, those who you would even never identify with in the parable of the story I'm about to tell you." So I think there's all of that, like you said, to move away from just kind of categorizing this as a nice homily about how we ought to behave. However, there might be, like, some kind of moralistic theme in this that directs us toward actions of love and generosity, which by the way, could just be common grace. Those exist outside of strict belief and adherence to the gospel, and certainly can be far afield from actually loving Christ. [00:21:00] The other thing that I think sometimes happens with this, and I'm gonna be unpopular on this one, I'm afraid, but is that I think there is often a lot of allegorical excess. And certainly there are people more intelligent than I who really embrace that. So I'm looking at you, Patristic Fathers. Like, you know, if you wanna read some interesting stuff, everybody can go look up Origen or Augustine on this. Yeah. And they allegorize this parable in New England what we would call wicked fine detail. I mean, down, down to everything. So the oil and the- Yeah ... wine, the soil, each of the persons here representing something that in itself, like, everything. And I think that that is okay. What I struggle with on that is, and this is where I'm unpopular, I think, is that- There are a lot of other exegetes, I don't think I'm alone, that would look at this and say, "Yes, there is something about this that draws us into, like, just general typological resonance. I'm not gonna reject that." There are these, like, broader canonical themes of, like, helpless [00:22:00] humanity, like you said, and undeserved mercy. Those all legitimately, I think, echo the gospel truths. But I'm kind of resisting, or I'm prone to resist, treating every narrative detail in this as some kind of, like, independent cipher. Yeah. And so I think I want to come a little bit in criticizing, like, the allegorical method here, that instead what happens when we do that is we're, we're... I think we're obscuring a little bit Christ's actual didactic purpose, which is fundamentally ethical and legal, 'cause that's the question he's answering. He's trying to answer this question, "Who's my neighbor?" And he's gonna do it- Right ... with this definition-shattering example. And so I think, like, the most responsible hermeneutic here affirms that, like we said before, a parable should have a single main point, and it's determined in this context by that punchline, like you said. Um, at the same time, I think we can legitimately, like, permit some restrained theological reflection on, like, that broader resonance with the gospel. I'm not denying that. But without multiplying, like, allegorical [00:23:00] correspondences like the text itself doesn't even make. Even, even coming down to, like, who we see as Christ in the story, while that can be useful and helpful, it's not the same identification that we've seen in other parables. Yeah. So that's what makes this, like you're right, Tony, like, really unique and very interesting because we can draw lots and lots of parallels, and perhaps we should. But at the same time, it's always good to remember what is it that Jesus is on about here? What is it that the hearers were really being prone to understand and mull over and meditate on? And that's, like, this first principle of neighborly love, like you already called out.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and I, I agree with you, too, is I, I think, um- We can sort of fall into a trap or a pit of assuming that all of the parables are meant to explain the same thing. Sure. And I think, like, within Matthew maybe that's a little bit more, uh, accurate because m- I think all, if not [00:24:00] most of, of the Matthean parables, you know, the Kingdom of God is like, the Kingdom of God is like. So th- like, that repeated f- refrain of, like, the Kingdom of God is... In, in Matthew, Christ is using parables to teach about the mysterious hidden reality of the kingdom in a way that people can understand. Um, this is different, right? This is not a Kingdom of God is like. There is no, um, clear this is like that, uh, introduction to this parable. Right. I, I've actually even read some commentaries that would question the assignment of the title parable to this, because they want to restrict what a parable is to those sort of kingdom, like, explicit simile- Good point ... things. Yeah. So- Right ... but I, I do think, um, w- we, we have to be careful not to run down that road, because this parable is not really... Again, like, it's not explaining what the Kingdom of God is like. This is trying to, um, not trying to, Christ is [00:25:00]articulating a reality that is baked into the law, um, and he's flipping the question on its head, and this is what I think is so, um, so wrong about the allegorical approach, right? Is that the allegorical approach seeks to find symbolism in every discrete character or element of the, of the parable, or of the, the allegory if you wanna, we wanna distinguish it. This really is, is trying to just get at that one point. And what- Mm-hmm ... I think is so, what must have been really just infuriating for this lawyer, um, regardless of what happened after this, right? We don't, we don't get commentary like we do with the rich, young ruler, and the stories are in many ways are very much the same. Like, it's the same basic setup. But we don't get commentary that, like, he went away sad, like we do with the rich, young ruler. We don't know what happened with this guy. We don't know what his reaction... But I, I'm sitting there putting myself in his place, and I'm, I'm thinking through this, and this is one of those things that it's actually hard even to mentally get yourself there. The, [00:26:00] the, each character that is introduced here, um, is a candidate for the neighbor. Right. But the most obvious candidate based on, um, the way we commonly interpret this, is that the dude who gets beat up and left stripped naked is, is the neighbor that we're supposed to love Right? So the lawyer, as he's hearing this parable, as it's being told, and the, the people who are there listening, right, the, the other people that are around, there's this character introduced, "Who is my neighbor? Well, a man was going down to Jerusalem. He fell among roggers, Roger, robbers, who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead." Like, the obvious answer is that Christ is introducing this poor, destitute, beat-up, naked dude, uh, as the neighbor that needs to be loved. And so he goes through the whole parable, and you're like, oh, well, like, the, you know, the, the priest and the Levite, they didn't love this guy. Uh, the Samaritan, you know, I think an audience of Jews probably would've been thinking like, "Well, the Samaritan can't be..." You know, the Samaritan [00:27:00] is just a dude. Like, none of these people are loving the, the, the beat-up dude like a neighbor should. Right. And then all of a sudden, Christ flips the script, and the neighbor is not the dude who's laying there naked, half dead, who's been rescued and, and, you know, restored and is being healed. It's actually the Samaritan. And so there's this... We have to... Part of the reason, I think, I mean, I, I, I guess I don't know for sure, but part of the reason I think s- that parables have this, like, reversal of expectation baked into many of them is that it is there to challenge our assumptions, and th- that sort of whiplash effect when you get to the end of it, you're like, "Whoa, that was like he was talking about totally, something totally different than what it seemed like he was talking about." I think that's actually a teaching tool here as well. Right. That the, the whole time you're thinking like, "Oh, this dude is the neighbor, and I've gotta figure out how to love him best," and that's what plays into these mercy ministry interpretations, is thinking that the, the point of the parable is to show us how to take [00:28:00] care of the, the people who need help, when really the point of the parable is the good neighbor. And, uh, we might butt heads a little bit on this, 'cause I think I take probably more of a Christological, uh, topological, typological interpretation than you do. I, I think that the point of the parable is that you can't justify yourself, and the only one who can justify you is the one who's kept the law perfectly. And what does it mean to keep the law perfectly? Well, love the Lord your God, but also love your neighbor as yourself. Well, who's the only person in the story who's loved the neighbor as himself? The one who s- rescues and heals and pays for this poor man who's been, you know, waylaid by robbers. He's the good neighbor who fulfills the law. He's the one who's justified himself. Now, yes, "Go do likewise," there's some echoes there of, of the go and sin no more language that we see in other places, too. So I, I think this parable is more, is more about- A, and this is where it shares some affinity with the rich young ruler, [00:29:00] right? The rich young ruler is told to go and to, to sell everything he has and donate it to the poor and to come and follow Christ. And he says, you know, he, he can't do that. He walks away sad. In this instance, it's the same kind of situation. It's an, a question about how do I fulfill the law? What do I need to do to be saved, to inherit eternal life, to obtain eternal life, whatever the phrasing is. And the answer is, "Obey the law perfectly." And the guy goes, "Well, hey, I did that." And he said, "Well, let me show you how much you didn't do that." And the reality is the only one who did that is Christ, the good teacher, right? I mean, there, there's so many parallels between these two accounts. It, it's almost the same, it's almost the same story. This one just in sort of parable answer form versus a more direct form, which we see with the rich young ruler. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, what I find really fascinating about these is that whereas, like you said, the, some of the other parables, they come under the volitional teaching of Christ. That is, He is presenting forward the topic at hand. So usually it's in the context of conversation, but He essentially makes [00:30:00] the segue. He presents and opens up this new kind of vista to explore. In this case, or in both those cases you talked about, the confrontation really comes from the outside. Of course, God, through Christ, predestined all of these things to pass, so I'm not saying that Christ was caught off guard, of course, by this line of questioning. And presumably He understands that when the lawyer asks this question, He knows that it's from a position of self-justification. So I don't disagree that that might be there, some of that at play, and that really the ultimate end of this would bring, to bring one's self to the realization that you can't do this. At the same time, though, I think almost, especially in this one, I think, uh, it's not that Jesus withholds that, but I read that do, go and do likewise is this is what you said you wanted. You asked me for an answer, and I gave you the answer. You asked for the law- Yeah ... I will give you the law. So I actually don't know how this ended. It doesn't strike me that it ended well, and I think, I don't know if there was some kind of massive realization there, but it's almost as if there is some [00:31:00] obscuring of this. This is like typical parable, parable language where I think if you're there and you're listening, and you're trying to just track with the question and track how that compounds and corresponds with the law, that you would leave more destitute, more confused, and perhaps more angry than before, and certainly not in a position of understanding, "Well, th- this one before me is the Christ." But that's exactly what parables do. So again, I, I think to me- Right ... I see this more as certainly, again, there are these wonderful themes These kind of overtures of the gospel within, but they are dark and very obscured because the man asks a question about the law, and Jesus comes with a message about the law. And like you said, that law is- Yeah ... like, there's almost no grace in his tone as I read it because, not that he is not graceful or full of grace and gracious, but this guy asks for justification under the law. And so it ends with saying, it ends with this really phenomenal phrase, of course, of the lawyer realizing he's got himself [00:32:00] caught in having to respond truthfully in answering the question of who is the neighbor, but of course doesn't identify the neighbor except to say, "Oh, the one who has compassion," as if like he himself couldn't bring himself- Right to say these words. And then for Jesus to say, "Yeah, go do it," is, is kind of like the ultimate nail in the coffin.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and to tell a first century Jew to go and do, to be- Yes ... like a Samaritan is- Yes ... you know, e- even, even though that's not, like, highlighted in the text, you're right. Like, the, the lawyer probably couldn't bring himself to say the Samaritan was, right? And I, I think, um, you know, whether you take, uh, and maybe I'm novel on this. I guess I haven't really read, read a lot of people that take a, a more optimistic approach of this. But whether you take a more optimistic outcome approach or a more pessimistic or neutral, whatever, the, the actual outcome is the same, right? The, the lawyer is asking about self-justification under the law, like you said. Right. And Christ gives him [00:33:00] that. He tells him exactly what that means and what that looks like. And I think the, the impossibility of being the good neighbor as is described in the parable is exactly the sort of beat down of the law that, that, you know, we've talked about in the past is it's not as though, um, the, the, the actions of the Samaritan are not, uh, outwardly impossible, right? We- Right ... it's not unreasonable to think that someone could rescue someone from the side of the road and bring them to ... And like, the scenario itself is not that crazy. But the, the overall complex of the scenario, right? The fact that this man, um, was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, right? The, the ... All of this points to sort of like an impossible circumstance, an impossible situation. And, and the idea that even [00:34:00] within that impossible situation you're still expected to take care of the person who is your enemy, right? The Samaritan seeing a Jewish man beaten by the side of the road- That's right ... and although the parable doesn't specifically call out that he's Jewish, if he's going from Jerusalem to Jericho, there's an implication that he may actually also have been a priest. Um, we, we don't need to get into all the details on that, but there's, there's some good, uh, some good research out there that would point to the fact that the road from Jerusalem to Jericho is, uh, was actually a very common pathway traveled by either priests or Levites. And further evidence is that a priest and a Levite are also on this same road. And so the idea that the Samaritan would, um, would- Sacrifice of himself to take care of someone who very likely considers him to be an enemy, and sacrifices in a pretty significant way. Um, I, I'll, I'll pause and now as you're [00:35:00]talking I'll do all the, the background scrambling to make it look like I know exactly how much- a denari is supposed to, to be, and I know we've talked about it before, it's just not there.  Lavish Impossible Mercy Tony Arsenal: But, but it's not a- Yeah ... it's not a trivial amount of money. That's right. We're not talking about checking this guy into, like, a Motel 6 and, and dropping a couple hundred dollars. We're, we're talking about a substantial amount of money and, and we're talking about a commitment to pay whatever is required. Okay. An unknown amount of money for this man who has been left for dead. We're not talking about a minor injury. The, the robbers beat him up, they took his clothes, and they expected him to die in the desert. He needed to be carried on a donkey. He needed to have immediate first aid attention. We're talking about a, a relatively long-term recovery. So the scenario would be more like, we think of it like, "Oh yeah, I dropped him off at the local hotel for him to sleep it off." The scenario would be more like, "I found a guy on the side of the road. I didn't know who he was. He's, he's of a group of people that would consider me to be their enemy, and he's been shot 100 times, and I'm gonna patch up his [00:36:00] wounds. I'm gonna take him to the hospital. I'm gonna not only pay and say, 'Here, I, I've already used some supplies. Let me pay for that,' but I'm gonna pay for all of his medical bills until he's healed." Like, that's the scenario we're talking about. So it's not, it's not just, like, a good deed that has been done that is maybe, like, a really, really good deed, like it's a really nice thing to do. It's a, it's an outlandishly almost impossible to conceive of doing good deed. N- I don't know anyone, um, who would... And, and I know a lot of really great people. This is not a slam. I don't know anyone who would find a stranger on the road and who is, who's gravely injured and commit to pay for all of their medical care until they're healed. I just don't know anybody who would do that. Right. Um, some might say there's actually some wisdom in that, and, uh, we've talked about how sometimes the parables present a situation where maybe, like, this isn't actually the best practical knowledge. It's there to prove a point. Right. But I don't know anybody who, I don't know anybody who would do that, who, who would even think about doing that. Um, so the, the scenario here is one [00:37:00] of impossible lavish goodness being extended to those who you have no reason to be good to, and probably have reason to not be good to. That's what we're talking about. And so the, when the, the lawyer is told to go and do likewise, he's being told to do something that is impossible to fulfill, or even to conceive of fulfilling. And so there is this element of, like, "You think you can obey the law? Well, let me tell you how much you can't  Jesse Schwamb: obey  Tony Arsenal: the law."  Jesse Schwamb: Right. By the way, this episode is brought to you by State Farm. Like a good Samaritan, State Farm is there. Every time we've been saying good neighbor, I've been just been trying to avoid thinking about- Yeah Jake from State Farm. That's what I've been doing most of this time.  Tony Arsenal: Jake from State Farm?  Jesse Schwamb: Um, I totally agree, of course.  Priest Levite And The Law Jesse Schwamb: Like, what strikes me here is that it's, like you said, there is all this emphasis on what it means to show neighborly love, but the setup is also in those who basically should be showing it but aren't, and that's where we get, can get into this lovely... It's, [00:38:00] it's okay to kinda think through some of these characters. You know, for this priest and the Levite here, and what we know about them is that they, at first it sounds like there, there's almost this sense in the language like the priest falls ab- upon this, this, you know, bloodied man by chance, and that kinda heightens the drama, I think. The priest's confrontation is a little bit unplanned, but it's immediate and unavoidable, and he chooses to cross on the other side of the road, which is of course a deliberate act of avoidance. It's not mere obliviousness. And then the Levi almost goes further, or he came to the place, he saw him closer inspection, you know, greater culpability, and yet he still passes by. I really do wish I could hear this, like, in real time, like be among, because I have to- Yeah ... wonder that there'd be this kind of sense of building in the story. And the people might be kind of getting the sense that the characters that they know and love or should love as the heroes are not gonna be performing that way. And so I think even they're curious. They might be hoping against hope that it's gonna turn out well, but knowing the question and maybe something about Jesus, [00:39:00] they might anticipate that he's gonna go in a different direction. And so again, I think we have to stick with the text here. Like, Jesus doesn't explicitly state the motives of these gentlemen, but it's truthful. What's true- Right ... is that, like, these boys should have known better. You know, a lot of people have speculated that it was for ritual purity concerns or the, another ambush or social distance or just callousness. And I think that ambiguity might be deliberate because, again, what cuts against the lawyer here is whatever the specific excuse, the point is that these, like this kind of professional religiosity and even, like, meticulous law observance are of course not identical with, and probably can even distract or obstruct the love of neighbor that the law itself commands, which is wild, right? Because we talked about how, again, this just shows the law doesn't empower you to do the thing, and in fact, here- Right ... you could essentially abuse the law so that you suck the spirit right out of it and therefore do not do the very thing that it was intended to accomplish. So even this by itself, you just stop the parable here, it's kind of condemning because it's really this [00:40:00] potent warning against some kind of merely external ceremonial, professionalized religiosity that fails to produce, I guess, what Matthew calls, like, the weightier matters of law, like justice and mercy and faithfulness. And, you know, we should understand this because I think those that are from tradition have a certain affinity for the third use of the law as a guide for the grateful Christian living, and that's, you know, kind of what we're talking about here. But it insists that true law keeping is never merely ritual or notional, but it must issue in love, like costly love. Love outside of being inconvenienced is not genuine. I, I guess we'll get there. But, you know, I don't wanna harp on the characters as some are prone to do, but that is, I think, why the characters are here. It's both to set up and show, like, you're about to see that you really do not wanna identify by your own persuasion, by your own presuppositions with the one who's gonna be the hero, that is the, the one that shows neighborly love. At the same time, I'm gonna show you by way of condemnation that those who should exercise the greater love, [00:41:00] that do know better, that should know better, that should emblem- be emblematic of the spirit of the law, have done the exact same thing. Which I can only, uh, hope but believe is what this lawyer heard as well was that he was hearing that he was being stuck into this place before he was even given the question, well, who was the neighbor here? Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and I, I think, um- There is a real sense in some of the parables that are sort of spoken against people. Um, this one doesn't specifically use that language, but it, it is a targeted, kind of a targeted response. There is a sense that throughout the course of the parable being told, they start to recognize midway through that they're like- Right you are the man. Like, this is one- Right, right ... of those Nathan and David kind of parables where, like, at some point the realization must have dawned on this guy that, like, "I've gotta be somebody in this parable." And I think that's where, where the, the challenging part is, is it's not clear, um, [00:42:00] it's not really clear even at the end of the parable who Christ is intending this guy to be, right? Right. Is he the lawyer or is he the, uh, is he the, the dead man on the side of the road, right? Is he... Or the dying man. Is, is he the l- the priest and Levite who pass by? Is he supposed to be the Samaritan, which would just be wildly offensive. Um, he's not necessarily, like, supposed to be anyone except for the fact that now at th- the punchline of the, the encounter here, Christ says, "Go and be like the Samaritan." And it's kind of like y- you know, if you were really following God's law, you would be the Samaritan in this one- Yeah, that's right ... but you're not. That's right. You're not and you can't be. Um, and so go, go ahead and do likewise.  Christ As True Neighbor Tony Arsenal: Um, I, I do think, too, there is some elements here where, um, I- Again, I, I think I take a little bit more of a typological, Christological-centered approach on this, but I, I don't think they're incompatible. But I do think there's an element here where Christ is also [00:43:00] unveiling, uh, sort of what he would do, like what, what his own plan of salvation is as the good, as the capital G, capital N good neighbor. Um, he is the one who does pour oil and wine on our wounds, right? A- and I don't wanna ... I don't think we need to fly off the allegorical deep end of reading oil and wine to be a reference to the Holy Spirit and t- Right but sometimes those things are evocative, indirect things that should, we should call our mind to those things. Like, I think, um, you know, when Melchizedek comes to bless Abraham and he, he presents him with bread and wine, right? I, I think, like, it's okay for us to go, "Wow, the Holy Spirit really made a point there that's subtle." And I think those little things within this parable drive me to look at this a little bit more along the lines of not only is there this sort of, like, law beat down, you [00:44:00] know, John Bunyan or not, um, Bunyan style, like the, "Moses just beat the crap out of me," kind of a- Right ... kind of a thing from Pilgrim's Progress. There's that, and I think it's really there. But it's also, uh, it's also sort of like this, uh, you know, "Blessed is the one who has ears to hear" side of it of, like, for those who are regenerated and can see the parable, can see the figures in the parable, it is now this beautiful picture of what it is that Christ does for those who cannot do it for themselves, right? And it's almost like the parable becomes a litmus test. If you look at the parable, and as you're reading through it, you sit there and you go, "Yeah, man, I'm like that guy who got beat up and left for dead. That, that really describes me," um, you're gonna get to the end of this and you're gonna be sort of, like, sitting in awe of, like, "Man, I have such a great savior who threw me on his donkey and, and promised to take care of all of my, all of my wounds, and promised to pay whatever it, whatever it cost." Um, y- you know, and all of these elements of, [00:45:00] like, oil and wine and, and all of these things be- kind of become alive to you in a way that someone who sees themselves as the, the good Samaritan, who thinks they're the one who's gonna come and rescue people, or I think increasingly in our day, and it's, it's weird to even say this, I think there are people who would look at this and resonate with the priest and lawyer and actually say, like, "Yeah, they shoulda, they shoulda crossed to the other side of the room." Mm-hmm. I've heard defenses of that in trying to argue that- The priest and the Levite, if they had, if this person was dead, they had touched the dead body, then, you know, they would've been ceremonially unclean. Uh, all of that is, I think, worth speculating about. But the reality is, um, who you see yourself in the parable actually says a lot, I think, about how you see Christ in light of either our ability to fulfill the law or our inability to fulfill the law, and therefore have our need for Christ. If you think you're the good Samaritan, if you think you're the one that's gonna come and [00:46:00] rescue people, that you're gonna be, you're gonna be the good neighbor, you're much more likely to see, uh, to, to be needing this as a sort of a law beat-down. Where those of us who, maybe this is the way you wanna parse it out, right? There's those of us who are, uh, regenerated and in Christ, and this is third-use law, right? This is, this is us- Right ... seeing what it means to be holy, and going and doing likewise, trying in our power, in our, our best to go and do likewise, empowered by the Holy Spirit, recognizing that we can't, and trusting the Lord to accept our feeble attempts- Right and be pleased by them. Right. Um, or maybe if you're not regenerated, this is f- this is first use, right? Right. And, and, and this is actually there to terrify you and to show you your condemnation and to serve as your condemnation. And, and there's even, and I didn't really intend to go all the way with this, but there's, there is also an element in here, and this is where, like, the mercy ministry interpretation comes in, where this is civil, this is civil law, where this is the, the, the, um, you know, the civil use of the law [00:47:00] to restrain evil, to show society what it is to be good, to, to restrain sin. Right. Yes, we want to be, uh, we, I would rather live in a society where people stop and help someone who's stranded or injured on the side of the road than, than a society where people pass by. Um, so I, I think all of those elements are in play here, and we do have to be careful not to take the full-on, like, never go full allegory approach to this, 'cause y- you can really... That's just a good general wisdom for all of, all of the Bible, but especially the parables and other figurative stuff. You can really just go totally far afield of what actually the point of the parable is- Right ... if you're not grounding it in the purpose that Christ is teaching it for, and, and the stated outcome of the parable, right? No one in the Bible makes c- I don't know that anyone in the Bible makes specific commentary on this within scripture, but the, the idea that, like, there's all these hidden meanings, well, if those are the hidden meanings, then why doesn't Christ talk about it? Why doesn't he come back- Right ... and [00:48:00] interpret those symbols later on like he does, like the Parable of the Sower or the Parable of the Seeds or Soils. Um, that one is much more directly allegorical in that the different seeds, the different soils represent specific people with specific s- scenarios. Christ comes and, and does that allegorical interpretation later on in the passage. There's nothing like that here. So I think we have to be really careful not to slip down that road. Jesse Schwamb: I think that it could be all those things. I, I totally agree with you on that. I think it could be all the use cases of the law. I think what makes this so wonderfully complex and a little bit tricky is that when I read this, I actually don't necessarily find myself gravitating toward putting myself in one place or the other. It almost depends on where I am or what's going on in my life. So for example, I think any time that any one of us, and we've all done this as Christians, have quenched the spirit, especially with respect to helping, serving, or loving others as my, our neighbor, then we're firmly in this parable in the place [00:49:00] of the priest and the Levite. Sometimes I think we are the one on the side of the road. We look to the church, to our brothers and sisters to help us, and what do they help us with? Like you were saying, Tony, they help us with that blood and oil. They help us with this, the power of the Holy Spirit, which is given to each one to help and to serve, to identify, to comfort with the comfort we ourselves have been received. And then I do think, and this might be unpopular, that, that sometimes by the grace of God, He empowers us to be the Samaritan, but only through His empowerment. Not, of course, because we're trying to just self-justify or because we're overtly generous in our own merit, but in fact, this is the way we ought to live, and that we ought to commend that kind of behavior to, again, acknowledge it as God-given and to promulgate it, especially among the body of believers. So I do think all three forms of the law are present there, but I do think I tend to, for whatever reason, right or wrong, I tend to tilt a little bit toward that third use here, just to see this as it's not wrong to, of course, to, I think, uh, lay over all of this, all these delightful variables and [00:50:00] details. Again, this idea of blood and oil, n- normative things, normal things, standard things that are being used to address- Yeah ... wounds. They're, they're... Of course, that would've been the practical way which you would've provided some kind of medicinal care to somebody in both that extreme circumstance, but also generally, because nobody's, like, keeping gauze or popping Advil to help this, this poor guy. And so it is- Right ... like this beautiful complexion of, I think, everything that we just talked about, that there is the law present, and depending on where you are, both in terms of your ingrafting into eternity, into the Kingdom of God, and then where you are in life, you- we should read ourselves probably, or l- let me say it this way, not so it's like eisegesis, but, like, that we should see ourselves often at different pli- times maybe playing or being tempted to play the parts of these different characters. And in that we find, I think, ultimately, of course, as you're saying, that Christ is over all, and that He is the one that, of course, perfectly emphasizes all of what it means to be the Savior, the [00:51:00] true loving neighbor who cares and binds and heals completely full stop. And yet there is something instructive here, I think, as well about going and bringing that compassion. I was just thinking, like, as we were talking, that there's such a difference, isn't there, like, in our world between these days, like, pity and compassion? Like, pity often is like, "Yeah, I feel sorry for you," but it strikes me as kind of like the James, is it James 1 or James 2, where it's kind of like, "Oh, you're... I, I'm so sorry that, like, you're, you're hungry and cold. You know what? Go, be warm, and be well-fed." You know, that's like pity. Like, "Yeah, I just- Yeah ... I feel a little bad. I identified with your emotions." Sending  Tony Arsenal: good vibes.  Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I've got- Yeah. Yeah. That's right, right? Sending good thoughts and good vibes your way. I wanna say, like, keep those to yourself 'cause they're probably not all that- Yeah ... good. Um- I  Tony Arsenal: don't want your vibes.  Jesse Schwamb: I don't want your vibes. Get your vibes out of here. What I need is that power of God himself, uh, to bring compassion, and compassion is always wrapped in action. It identifies- Right ... and then goes. It, it's, it [00:52:00] is not self-promoting, it's self-sacrificing. And so that rule of law, which is like the good rule of law, the good teaching, the kind that brings life because it's the Decalogue wrapped in skin perfectly performed by the power of the Holy Spirit through the one who is perfect again in his passive obedience and active obedience. Yes, yes, we need, we need all of that. It's modeled here, I think, to a certain extent, but I think the go and do likewise is actually for all of us, but it's not the kind like we would say, "Well, like, good luck." It's more the- Yeah ... you know the one from whose side the blood flowed. You know the one who is pressed in the garden as if olives under the press leaking oil. You know who that one was, and that one is His spirit resides in you. So now go and do these acts- Yeah ... of mercy. Again, not s- for some kind of meritorious reward, but because you were made for good works, which were set apart for you to do, and part of those good works are [00:53:00] just always being a good neighbor. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and, and maybe to, to close out, I, I, I think maybe we actually did it. I don't know that we're gonna have to do another episode on this. I guess we'll see after we do- Who would've guessed? ... our postmortem here.  Mary Martha And Final Charge Tony Arsenal: But I, I think part, part of, um, part of what we need to at least acknowledge is that what, what follows this parable, right? This, this goes from a parable of a lawyer seeking to justify himself to now the account of Mary and Martha, and the fact that, uh, that, um, M- Martha, you know, is busy with much work, and Mary is sitting and listening to, to Jesus and is said to have chosen the better part. And I think, like- Mm ... this is something that I think because of the way, like, Bibles are formatted, the way that certain things are sort of, like, extracted out as discrete teaching units, this parable is pulled out and separated from this next part. And I, I think we can [00:54:00] really run into problems when we do that because- You know, even if we, even if we were to sort of treat the scripture as, like, a purely human book, right? Luke chose to put this account of Mary and Martha after this, right? And, and- Right ... probably not just because, like, it happened chronologically. There's no real, um, there's no real necessity that this account of Mary and Martha in this particular story had to happen immediately afterwards. Like, there's no organic link in, in the chronology of the story to drive that, right? And the two aren't related in terms of, like, historical cause and effect or, uh, proximity. There's none of those things. So the only answer as to why this was selected to follow the parable of the Good Samaritan is that there's some thematic connection that drove Luke as an author to put this, put this right following that. And so I think even that should drive us to thinking about, all [00:55:00] right, we've got this statement of go and do likewise, show mercy. Now there's almost this foil that the, the, the person in, in the account in the, the narrative here, and a, a true narrative, right? We're not in parable land anymore, but the person in the narrative that seems to be showing mercy, seems to be taking care of people the most, is actually the one who's chastised a little bit for, for being- Right overly zealous about m- mercy ministry, hospitality ministry- Right ... is what you might call it. She's the one who's like, "Tell my sister to help me with this." And she said, like, "You know, you're always gonna have time to do this, but, like, I'm not always gonna be here. You're, you're anxious and troubled about many things." You know, the one thing is necessary. Well, what's the one thing in the parable or in the- Right ... in the story, in the account here? The one thing that's necessary is to sit at the Lord's feet and be instructed. So I, I think we, that, that whole complex c- looking at what came before this, looking at what comes after it, we didn't talk about it, but even if you go earlier into, um, earlier into, uh, the chapter here, we have, um, we have, you know, [00:56:00] the statements about, uh, things that are hidden. We have all of these things about evangelism and ministry and conversion that are kind of baked into this chapter.  Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: We really, you know, we really have to read the parable in light of all of that. So I think this has been a good, a good discussion, and I, I love that- It, even though we, at some point we have to decide to move on. We can't just, like, become the Luke 10:25 through 32 parable podcast. Although that would be a sick podcast. I would listen to that. Um, we're not gonna be that podcast, so we have to, at some point we have to sort of say, like, "All right. We, we on The Reformed Brotherhood are done talking about this- Yeah ... for, for the time being." For now. I still always feel like I'm leaving that like, "Oh, there's just so much more we could say about this." Oh, mm-hmm. "There's so much more we could talk about." Okay. Um, and that's the beauty of these parables is they're so rich, they're so deep. Some of them are so short, but they still, you know, that, that old adage that, like, it's deep enough for a child to wade in and- Mm-hmm you know, or it's, it's shallow enough for [00:57:00] a child and deep enough for an adult. Like, that's really true here in this parable, but it's really true of all the parables. So I'm so blessed by, by the fact that we get to do this every week and talk about the Bible every week and, and we have a reason to need to, like, be careful about our thoughts and think through things. It, it's really- Sure ... one of the great blessings of my life that I'm able to do this.  Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, likewise. I, and, and that way I hope that we're encouraging you as you're listening to grab a friend, a family member, a spouse, a loved one, somebody from a church. Go, go tackle the nearest elder to you and- ... talk about these things, too. Use us as an excuse if you want to. I hope that it's, like, promoting and promulgating conversation in your own lives, because as I've been thinking about this since we talked about it last week, I can just share for me one of the things I've really been pondering over and over again is that this parable, like, really forbids Christians from allowing ethnic, religious, political, national, social- Yeah categories to define or limit the scope of, like, our practical compassion. And I've been thinking for me, what [00:58:00]does that mean? My li- my life, honestly, everybody is pretty homogenous. I think generally we prefer homogeneity to otherwise. And I live in an area that's very much not like that. And so just this idea of keeping one's eyes open by the power of the Holy Spirit to be useful to others, to show love in ways that are small. Wasn't it Mother Teresa that said, like, there, there are no great things, just small th- small things with great love? You know, that sentiment I think is right on to a degree, and it's maybe easier to practice that kind of love than we know about. But also, where are these people in our communities? Because I'm certain wherever you live, work, and play, they exist. Yeah. They just need help. They're down and out, and they're probably very much unlike you or me. And we might do a little bit better if we actually sought some of that out. Yeah. And I've been thinking about what that would mean. And then ultimately, I think we're relying on this, this idea that this text is not really to be preached or applied as some kind of bare moral exhortation. It's not... Again, please hear us [00:59:00] correctly. It's not try harder to be like the Samaritan. That's totally disconnected from the gospel. It should be preached in a manner that exposes the impossibility of self-justification, like you were saying, Tony. It certainly did for this lawyer, I hope. And then, of course, it does point us to Christ as the one whose perfect, costly, self-giving mercy alone satisfies the law's demand on our behalf, and whose spirit alone empowers us as believers to then go do likewise, apply the blood, apply the oil in our lives to those who desperately need it as an act of grateful Spirit-wrought obedience rather than some kind of anxious self-salvation. It's so-  Tony Arsenal: Yeah ...  Jesse Schwamb: heavy that this is like, um, you know, like, Tony, do you ever, like, you ever, like, smelled or tasted something and you're like, "Ooh, that's funky," and then you keep going back to it? It's like you can't decide whether you like it or not. I'm embarrassed to say that's- Yeah ... kind of how I feel about this parable. Not because, of course, I don't appreciate that this is God's word for us, his [01:00:00] very direct revelation for his children. It's everything that we need for godly living and for practical life here. It's that there's a lot in here for me to really ponder if I let myself think about it, and it's not about who represents- Yeah whom so much as it is about how am I applying what it means to be a good neighbor, knowing that there is an expectation that being under the one who is the ultimate good neighbor, how then should I embody that in my own life by acts of sacrifice, by acts of love that are dramatic and are generous. But not because, again, they are showy, but because, and not because it's what the law requires, even though it does, but it's because what Jesus already won for us on our behalf. And now we do something better than pay it forward. We live it out. We show that we were once dead and we're now alive. And as people who are truly alive, the only human beings who are truly free, we do all these things self-sacrificially in love because God loves us.  Tony Arsenal: [01:01:00] Yeah. Yeah, maybe, um, I, I feel the same way, Jesse. Like this, this is, uh, the thing that's stuck in my craw is like- The fact that Christ didn't answer the question- Yeah ... in, in the expected way, like that really drives me to think about it. So I don't wanna leave people with a sort of like, "Yeah, we don't really get it, we don't understand it," sort of a vibe. Um, I think there's a reality to like the scripture needs to be studied as a life discipline. Right. You're never gonna like graduate from studying the scriptures. But I wanna leave with these words from, uh, Matthew Henry on this. Um, he says, "Now this parable's applicable to another purpose." He, he went through sort of like the traditional understanding of what the parable is for, and he says, "Now this applic- this parable's applicable to another purpose than that for which it was intended, and it does excellently set forth the kindness and love of God, our Savior, towards sinful, miserable man. We were like this poor distressed traveler. Satan, our enemy, had robbed us, stripped us, wounded us. Such is that mischief that sin had done to us. [01:02:00] We were by nature more than half dead, twice dead in trespasses and sin, utterly unable to help ourselves, for we were without strength. The law of Moses, like the priest and Levite, the ministers of the law, looks upon us but has no compassion on us, gives us no release, passes by on the other side as having neither pity nor power to help us. But then comes the blessed Jesus, the good Samaritan- Mm ... and they said of him by the way of reproach, he was a Samaritan. He has compassion on us. He binds up our bleeding wounds, pours in not o- not oil and wine, but that which is infinitely more precious, his own blood. He takes care of us and bids us all the expenses of our cure upon his account. And all this, though he was none of us till he was pleased by his voluntary condescension to make himself so, but infinitely above us. This magnifies the riches of his love and obliges us to say, 'How much are we indebted, and what shall we render?'" And I think the reason that I, I close [01:03:00] with that is If this parable and our conversation about it does nothing except stirring you to gratitude for the fact that our, our supreme good neighbor threw us on his donkey and carried us to the public house, and bound up our wounds, and paid for our debt, if it does nothing but drive you to gratitude and thankfulness and wonder, then we've succeeded in our task and we've left you with the Gospel. And that's always where I wanna leave people, is with the Gospel. So thank you so much for joining us, uh, for, for looking through these parables with us. Um, again, we're, we're gonna come up to the end of the parables a lot quicker than it feels. It felt like we were, we were taking a ton of time, and then all of a sudden we're kinda rushing to the end. So we've got, we've still got s- probably a couple months left of this, um, but we would love to have some questions, uh, some thoughts that we can maybe discuss in sort of a recap episode. So please do, uh, think through questions that have come up, things that you wanna, wanna dig into, you know, rabbit trails that we haven't been able to follow that you [01:04:00] might want us to take a look at, and, and get those to us. Um, and you know all the usual ways to do that. We don't have to do the whole housekeeping, join the Telegram chat stuff. You guys know how to find it. If you've listened for any amount of time, you're annoyed with us for saying it every time. Um, but we do wanna hear from you. We do wanna know- Yes ... what you think. We would love your feedback. We love your participation. Um, it's common that stuff that occurs in our Telegram chat, for example, or emails we get, drives us to think through a topic differently, or drives us- True ... to think about a topic that we hadn't thought about before, and that often plays into what we decide to talk about on the show. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's true. And since, as you know, the only reason why there wasn't an actual ad from State Farm on this episode- ... was because we don't play that game. Jake from State Farm, he longed, he was pining to do an ad on this episode because of the resonant character of what we were talking about. We said, "No, we don't take your money. We know the good, good neighbor, and we don't need it." And then we also don't need it because God's people provide for us. So if you have been blessed in some way by this podcast, first of all, if any of this stuff [01:05:00] made sense to you today, then you really ought to put up a word of praise to God himself who has changed you, regenerated you, saved you. And then maybe as you're thinking, you know, I'd like to make sure that the Reformed Brotherhood podcast continues to go out into all the lands or all the lands with internet and ears, then there is a way that you can support that. And if you go to patreon.com/reformedbrotherhood, there's a way for you to give a one-time gift, uh, large or small, or a reoccurring gift, s- large or small. All of that just makes sure that the hosting, posting, and editing, even if it's Tony and I self-editing in real time, which I'm not doing right now, which is why this episode- ... is going longer, it makes sure that all of this happens. We are really, really grateful that others partner with us to cover the costs so that this can just continue to happen. So if that's something you're interested in, why don't you go check it out? All you have to do is check it out. Um, we are so thankful to everyone who gives because it really makes sure that Tony and I can sit down and record this week after week, and that it somehow almost automatically arrives in whatever your [01:06:00] podcast catcher of choice is. So come join the brotherhood. Yeah. Come hang out wherever you can, however you can. We look forward to meeting you and to actually getting to know some of you.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, Jesse, that's a good place for us to wrap it. And so until next time, honor everyone.  Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood 
• 
  The Good Samaritan, Part 1: Total Depravity, Self-Justification, and the Grammar of Grace 21.08.2026 1h 6min

  In episode 502 of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse begin what promises to be a multi-part deep dive into the Parable of the Good Samaritan — one of the most culturally embedded and theologically rich stories Jesus ever told. But before a single character hits the Jericho road, the hosts ground listeners in something easily overlooked: the charged context in which this parable is told. A lawyer — trained, confident, adversarial — steps forward not to learn but to test. What follows is a masterclass in how Jesus turns the law back on those who wield it as a weapon. This episode covers Luke 10:21–36, explores the covenant of works and covenant of grace, the noetic effects of sin, and why the Good Samaritan is far more than a lesson in being a helpful neighbor. Buckle up. Key Takeaways The lawyer's question is self-contradictory from the start. Asking "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" smuggles a works-righteousness assumption into the very grammar of the question. Inheritance by definition is received, not earned. Jesus does not give the lawyer a new paradigm — He reorients him to the true one. The covenant of grace is not a New Testament innovation. It runs through every Old Testament covenant administration. The lawyer should have already known this. "Do this and you will live" is not a Pelagian concession. Christ is holding out the law's own terms — perfect, total, unrelenting obedience — not to suggest it is achievable, but to expose its impossibility and drive the lawyer (and us) to the only alternative: mercy. "Desiring to justify himself" is more complex than it first appears. Tony argues that the desire to fulfill the covenant of works is not inherently wicked — it is the misguided belief that one can which is the problem. This distinction creates room for reading Christ's response as genuinely merciful instruction, not merely rebuke. The noetic effects of sin mean accurate theology can be deployed in service of self. The lawyer knows the right answers and still uses them to avoid repentance. Correct doctrine alone does not save. The fundamental human problem is not ignorance — it is the will's bondage and the heart's self-love. The parable is primarily Christological, not merely ethical. Jesus is the Good Samaritan. The story is not first about mercy ministry; it is about who binds up our wounds when we are left for dead on the road, unable to save ourselves. The priest and the Levite are not exonerated by their ritual obligations. Considerable ink has been spilled trying to justify their passing by on grounds of Levitical purity concerns. The parable refuses that exit. Everyone in the story — and everyone listening — already knows what the right thing to do was. Key Concepts The Covenant of Works Is Not a Black Box One of the more quietly important arguments Tony makes in this episode is that the covenant of works was never meant to be mysterious or inaccessible. When Jesus responds to the lawyer's question by asking, "What is written in the law? How do you read it?" — He does so with a visible assumption: there is a clear, knowable answer, and the lawyer should be able to give it. And he does. Love God completely, love your neighbor as yourself. The covenant of works was always coherent and comprehensible. The problem has never been that its demands were obscure. The problem is that no one — save the Mediator — has ever kept them. Jesus is not introducing a new ethical framework. He is forcing the lawyer to confront a standard he has always known and has never met. The Lawyer as a Warning to Reformed Christians Jesse closes the episode's first movement with a pointed and personal application that cuts across theological self-satisfaction. The lawyer is not a caricature of ignorance — he is a portrait of someone with accurate, affirmed theological knowledge who instinctively deploys it in the service of self-justification the moment he senses conviction. Jesse names this directly as a danger particularly acute in Reformed circles, where doctrinal precision can become a subtle mechanism of self-defense rather than an occasion for repentance. The Reformation's great recovery of grace must not become a new form of the very disease it diagnosed. Knowing the right words about total depravity, the covenant of grace, and the mediator does not exempt anyone from the need to actually be humbled by them. Theology is not armor against repentance — it is, rightly received, the road toward it. Context Is Not Just Setup — It Is Part of the Lesson Tony and Jesse both emphasize that Luke 10:21–24 is not merely throat-clearing before the real content begins. The theological statement embedded there — that the Father has hidden these things from the wise and revealed them to little children, that no one knows the Son except the Father or the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him — is the hermeneutical key to everything that follows. The lawyer approaches Jesus as one rabbi testing another. But Luke has already told his readers that this is not a conversation between equals debating interpretive options. It is the Lawgiver being questioned by someone who does not recognize Him. The parable that follows is not just an answer to a legal question. It is a revelation — the kind that only happens when the Son chooses to give it. Memorable Quotes You do not want to pit the law against the one who has given the law, the one whose character is represented in the law — because you're always going to get owned, and you'll get owned before you realize you've just gotten owned on multiple levels. - Jesse Schwamb Jesus is trying to sort of reorient them back to the true paradigm of grace that is present under all of the Old Covenant administrations. It's not so much a matter of developing a new framework and imposing it on this guy. It's really trying to say, 'Listen — think about this for a second. Think about the fact that, yes, you know you have to love the Lord your God with your whole heart, your whole soul, your whole strength, your whole mind, and you have to love your neighbor as yourself. You've answered correctly. If you can do those things, you will live.' — with the subtext: and of course you cannot possibly do those things. - Tony Arsenal The fundamental human problem is not primarily ignorance, but the will's bondage and the heart's self-love. It's a problem no amount of correct discipline or doctrine alone can fix apart from some kind of regenerating grace — which is exactly what Jesus is going to illustrate for us in the mercy he's about to display in this parable. - Jesse Schwamb Full Transcript Tony Arsenal: [00:00:00] This parable is not primarily about us figuring out how to do mercy ministry. Like, that's important. It's probably an outcome of this. It's probably something for us to think about. But really, this is actually Christ saying, like, "Hold on a second here, dude." Like, "Let's just think about this." Do you need someone who is going to tell you to pick yourself up off your bootstraps and cross to the other side of the street and leave you to your own devices? Or do you need someone who's gonna throw you on their donkey, who's gonna bind up your wounds, who's gonna pay the innkeeper, and is gonna pledge to pay everything that is owed for your salvation? Right? That's not too on the nose here, I think. Welcome to episode 502 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm [00:01:00] Jesse  And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brother.  Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. Well, we've got a big one to talk about on this episode. We're marching further and further into all of the glorious parables Jesus told as part of His teaching. And as you and I kind of joked before we began, I mean, what did you call it? Did you say this is, uh, the big daddy?  Tony Arsenal: It's the big daddy, one of the big daddy parables.  Jesse Schwamb: It's one of the big daddy parables. Now, this one is probably second maybe only to the prodigal son. Yeah But in terms of its ubiquity and its kind of just common knowledge in culture, this one ranks right up there. And before I reveal what it is, which you may already know, I was thinking how so many times we look at the Beatitudes as expression of a master class in Jesus teaching the law, and I think that's true. But as I was reading and thinking about this particular parable, I thought, "I don't know. I think this one is, uh, right up there," because [00:02:00] this is like law on law. It's double law. Yeah It's law coming back at the law giver who's trying to use the law to test Jesus, and then Jesus tests him with the law that He himself gave His people. It's... I'm already getting too excited- ... and we've got something to do before we get there. But we're talking about the parable of the Good Samaritan. And so I can't imagine, can I just make a prediction up front? I, you know where I'm going with this, and probably everybody else does. Uh, this is gonna be like two conversations-  Tony Arsenal: At least ...  Jesse Schwamb: probably.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah, at least two.  Jesse Schwamb: Is that fair? Because I realize we, of course, wanna get to the parable itself, and oh, my goodness, how much ink has been spilled. Even going back to, like, if you read, like, Augustine or, like, the early church, like the Patristics, the Church Fathers, there are so much that could be said, and maybe some stuff that just shouldn't be said about all the allegorical potential intent here about these characters. But [00:03:00] there's so much amazing stuff that happens in the opening of this, that's not just the setup, but it is its own lesson, and I'm real excited actually to talk about that with you before we even get into, like, all the good stuff that everybody expects that you wanna talk about. So we're gonna do it all. Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  Jesse Schwamb: We're gonna do it all, but it'll take time.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I'm interested to see if we're even on the same page about where to start reading, 'cause I, I think we might not be, and that's gonna be fun. So we'll, we'll let it fly and see what happens. It'll be our own little, uh, podcast game.  Jesse Schwamb: But, uh, I think- Well, I mean, we're gonna be in Luke chapter 10, but I guess to your point, we should be starting in Luke chapter one to get to this. Yeah.  Tony Arsenal: Exactly. But  Jesse Schwamb: we, we do have to back up quite a bit, and I was gonna ask you about that. Yeah. But I, apparently we're just gonna play that on the fly and see where we go.  Affirmations Denials Segment Jesse Schwamb: But of course, the Reformers had their five solos. Chalcedon had its, what, seven withouts. We've got opinions, and we're just as confident about ours, so of course it's time for affirmations, denials, where we affirm something that we think is good or awesome or [00:04:00] we wanna recommend, and we deny, again, something that is not so great or maybe just plain annoying. So before we talk about the Parable of the Good Samaritan, Tony, what do you got for us on this episode? Are you affirming with something, or are you gonna come in with a denial?  Tony Arsenal: Well, I've got two affirmations. That's fine. One is just- I will allow it ... a declaration of joy, and one is, like, a real affirmation. I, I just can't... It would be remiss of me not to share with our podcasting family that my son August and my daughter Adeline, uh, joined the visible church today as- Hear, hear ... uh, non-communicant members. Uh, Augie and Addie were baptized on the 16th of August of 2026, uh, into the visible church, into the name of Jesus Christ. Uh, was, it was just a great service. Um, it's funny because I've been- been talking with Augie. One of the thing with toddlers when you're doing something big like this is you kinda have to talk about it and practice and rehearse, rehearse it and, and get them ready for it. And up until maybe, like, I don't know, three days [00:05:00] ago, every time it would come up he would be saying, "I don't wanna be baptized. I don't wanna be baptized." And, um, you know, I, I, I, you know, I don't wanna force him to do something, but also, like, I make him eat vegetables. But, um- ... he, I, I think it was nerves, and I think something clicked in his head and all of a sudden he was very excited to be baptized. So, um, it was great. We've been talking about, you know, what baptism is, God's promise to you that if you trust him he'll save you. And so today he- Right ... he was like, "God's gonna make a promise to me to save me." So he was very excited. Nice. And he did a great job just standing quietly and listening to the pastor talk. Uh, and Addie was, was, was just a beautiful little girl, and she, um, she loved it as well. So that's just a bonus affirmation. I don't know that I could get through a podcast without gushing over that.  Glorify App and Devotionals Tony Arsenal: Uh, but the, the affirmation I have, uh, this is an, an app that I think some of our listeners may have heard of. Um, some may roll their eyes at it, to be honest with you. Um, I stumbled on this because, uh, you have an Oura Ring, don't you, Jesse? Jesse Schwamb: I do.  Tony Arsenal: You [00:06:00] do, yeah. So for those who don't know, an Oura Ring is like a little wearable ring that's like a, almost like a fitness tracker, but it tracks biometrics, pulse rate, temperature, all these different things, sleep. Um, there's a startup, uh, that has been doing a GoFundMe or a funding kind of thing for, uh, what they're calling like a Christian version of an Oura Ring. So it does a lot of the same things, sleep tracking, basic biometric tracking. Hmm. But it also has like alerts built in, and it's tied into an app that they use for devotionals. So it'll, it'll remind you to pray. It'll remind you, you know, bring you to an app to do a devotion. But the app it uses is a standalone app that I looked up, and it's called Glorify. Have you ever heard of this app before this evening? I have heard of  Jesse Schwamb: this, yeah.  Tony Arsenal: So Glorify is just a small devotional app. Uh, it's not much different than you would expect based on the name. It is connected to this, uh, to this Glorify ring, which again is, is sort of like an Oura Ring tied into this app. But this app basically is, is [00:07:00] designed to help you complete short daily devotional exercises, and they're usually very brief. They're based on a very brief, um, a very brief passage of scripture. Today's passage, uh, c- there's a quote. So today's quote is from Dietrich Bonhoeffer. It says, "True love does not consist in finding the perfect person, but in faithfully loving an imperfect one." Not sure why this devotional app is using a romance, uh, quote from Bonhoeffer of all people. But that was today's. Um, and the passage is Proverbs 5:15-17. So it's a, it's a devotional based on two verses, which is fine. So you read the passage. There's a very brief devotional on that passage, and then sort of a guided prayer, and they have both premium and free models. The premium model includes like you can listen to the devotional, you can listen to the prayer. Um, but just for example, today's prayer, it, it's very simple. "Loving Father, thank you for, uh, thank you because you're faithful and unchanging. In a world [00:08:00] marked by broken promises, disposable relationships, you remain the same. Teach me to reflect that faithfulness in my relationships. Help me to love with perseverance, grace, and commitment following the example of Christ. Protect marriages, strengthen families, restore what needs healing. May every relationship be marked by respect, truth, and genuine love. Shape in me a heart of integrity that honors you in both the small and significant choices of life. In Jesus' name, amen." So I think what I love about this, and this, I mentioned last week that there was, this is kind of like, sort of like the fluffy evangelical devotions. Like- Right ... there's not a ton of like solid doctrinal meat- But like, it's still nourishing. And sometimes we need a little bit of help. Sometimes we don't know what to pray, we don't know what to read, we're not sure. Sometimes in, I think in our Reformed circles, we feel like if we're not reading large portions of scripture and reading deep theological treaties or long, complex devotionals, that we're really not doing anything, and that's just not the [00:09:00] truth. So I've been using this in addition to other devotional studies I'm doing. I don't do it every day. I mean, there's some like streak functionality, kinda like habit tracking type stuff that's built into it. Um, but it's nice. It's nice to be able to pick it up, read a very short scripture, a brief devotional thought, and then have some guided prayer. I know one of the reasons I don't pray as often as I ought to is because I struggle to know what and how to pray. So even having some written prayers, I mean, this is why the Psalms are good, things like the Valley of Visions are good. Um, having some pre-written prayers that you genuinely pray but you're not having to come up with in the moment can really help. Right. So the app is called Glorify. I know it's available on iPhone. I'm not sure about Android. I'm sure it probably is. I'm sure they wanna have a pretty broad ecosystem. Um, and, and it's good. Again, it's, it's not anything fancy. It's not anything like super technical. Uh, and as I kind of alluded, like some of it's a little weird. Um, I, I didn't read the proverb. I think maybe the proverb is about romantic relationships, why they're, why they're tying in that, um, Bonhoeffer quote in, in the prayer. [00:10:00] But, um, even that, like it's pretty innocuous. And the quotes, like you don't have to read the quotes. It's not like you have to have to do that. Um, you could jump in, just read the scripture or just read the devotion and just do the prayer and you would be fine. So check it out. It's called Glorify, available on iPhone for sure. I'm pretty sure it's on, on Android. And maybe it's something you add daily, you know, this kinda thing like you do when you're on the bus or you're waiting at the grocery store, something quick you can do when you might be wasting that time just sorta sitting around or scrolling Twitter. Again, Twitter's fine. You can use your leisure time as you see fit. But if you wanna fill it with something like this, something that is more spiritual, then this would be a good option to just add a little bit of, uh, a little bit of nourishment to your diet where you might not otherwise be getting it  Jesse Schwamb: I have no proof of this, but I just keep saying it anyway. It might be that we're living in the golden age of really great- ... daily worship resources. Like, something to actually cultivate, not just, like, a devotional nugget, but something that actually leads you into a pattern and a habit of [00:11:00]worship, giving your attentive focus on Jesus. And I love that. So, uh, uh, 'cause I was just thinking, like, I was trying to look back on some of our past affirmations here. We've talked about the book Walking in Faith. I just gave everybody Awake My Soul last week. You're coming in with the Glorify app. I- we've talked about Dwell, if not recently, we've talked about that for some time. It's like a great Bible reading app, and there's lots and lots of new features, by the way, coming out on that- Yeah that are fantastic. And then, yes, all these other great prayers. I, I see, like, these books on prayer, like, actually, I'm sorry, like, prayer books, I guess, as, like, a great way to kinda... It's like a jumper for your car. You know what I mean? Like, just gets you started. What a, what a lovely thing to come into a place and have a launching pad. And I've been using a lot of Into His Presence, which is a collection of Puritan prayers, sometimes because, for instance, this just happened, where I wanted to pray for someone who was just going through a rough time, a good friend of mine. And I went to that place to kinda start and frame, knowing that I was gonna sit down with him and pray, how I might be able to do that well and [00:12:00] effectively. And these things are just, like, really phenomenal resources. It's just an amazing time to have all these things at our disposal. So that's another great option. It's, it's really more about, like you and I have talked about, Tony, like, whatever gets us into that pattern, whatever gets us, like, authentically experiencing under our own volition, coming in the discipline of sitting before God in daily worship with that expression being pretty broad in its representation- Yeah is to really include something of devotional time in the scriptures, memorization, metabolation, metabolizing. Metabolation, I'm just gonna make that up as, like- ... what happens when you, when you take the scripture and metabolize it into your own life. Meditating on it and, you know, again, maybe looking through the confessions and creeds that have shaped our distilled understanding of what the scripture teaches so that we're enhancing and edifying our mind. We're also engaging the heart, and then we're engaging God and ourselves in communication with Him through prayer. I'm all for anything [00:13:00] that gets us into those rhythms, reminds us of the importance of them, and like we talked about last week, makes it so that when we think about what it means to be married to Christ, so to speak, it's not just about whipping out some kind of marriage certificate to prove that, but that we actually have a frame and a behavioral pattern that fits a married person, that- Yeah how they act, how they think, how they behave, how they communicate, they're never too far away from their lovely spouse in some way or another. And so I think that these tools are great ways to get us exactly into that kind of mindset and practice.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah, absolutely. And like I said, like, I think- In our Reformed circles, we can, you know, we, we tend to be maybe a little eggheaded, and we, we tend to be a little more intellectual and, and a little more, I don't know, studious. And there's nothing wrong with that. Um, but I think sometimes it can breed a sort of, uh, elitism and arrogance. Sure. Uh, this is a perfectly valid devotional tool. Yes. Mm-hmm. And, and I think, [00:14:00] you know, kinda like the old adage, like, well, what's the best translation of scripture? Well, whichever one you're gonna read. Exactly. Like, what's the best devotional tool? Whichever one you're gonna use, whichever one's actually gonna bring you into the Word, uh, on a, on a regular basis. Um, and again, like, two verses of the scripture is two verses of the scripture that you might- Right ... not have other spent time, otherwise spent time reading. And it really is short enough, and it saves your progress. Like, you can do, you can do the quote in the morning, and then you can check the scripture on the way to the, you know, the word work, on a stoplight or whatever. Um, if you have the, the paid subscription, you can listen to this stuff, you know, on the, the bus or whatever. Um, so check it out. Glorify app, they have a ring they're making. It's in funding, I guess, if you wanna check it out, you can check that out too. I am neither affirming nor denying whatever this Glory ring is, Glorify ring. But, um, but yeah, the app is great. The, the app is free, and it's, it's worth even just checking out and adding once in a while to your day  Jesse Schwamb: The glory ring or the glorify ring sounds like almost too Tolkien, even for me  Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. It's the one ring to rule all of your devotions. [00:15:00] Uh, and in the, and in the morning bind them. Jesse, save me from the trail I was about to go on, and, and I was gonna speak in the language of Mordor, I think, on accident. Uh, save us from this. What are you affirming or denying?  Jesse Schwamb: That's  Tony Arsenal: beautiful. Please tell me it's the language of Mordor. Elvish AI and Music Pick Jesse Schwamb: Uh, no, but can I just say at the risk of really taking us really far afield so early on, which is not necessarily off-brand for us, I have done this... I, I don't know if I should be ashamed by this or I should be excited by this. But- ... um, the Elvish tongue in the Tolkien universe-  Tony Arsenal: Oh, no. ...  Jesse Schwamb: is like, there's several... If you're super nerdy, you'll know there's like several different kind of iterations or formulas of it, and there's no, like, official language like Klingon, but there ha- it has been studied, and basically, like, it's kind of like the Eugene Peterson of the language. Like, there's, like, just kind of a dynamic equivalent or an expression of words. Anyway, all that to say- ... there's several languages that, uh, Microsoft Copilot will just not [00:16:00] translate because it says, like, "This one, this language doesn't actually exist. There's not enough for me to do anything." Let me tell you something. Tolkien Elvish is not one of those languages, and I actually built an agent, because I have a coworker who can, uh, who can appreciate all this stuff, that takes a text, translates it into this kind of academic high-level Elvish from Tolkien, and then translates it back to English. That makes anything you're saying way better and far more poetic and just absolutely amazing. So if you wanna have some fun, go and do that with whatever your favorite AI model is. Anyway, that's free of charge. Real quick, my affirmation is more music. It just turns out I've found this band, and I've been listening to them a lot. The band's name is Thronebreaker, which is just a phenomenal name, I think, for any group. Uh, it's amazing. Uh, th- this is... I'm gonna read you their description from Spotify. It just says, "Thronebreaker is Christian metalcore built for the bruised, the doubting, and the ones still fighting their way home." And what I've really been [00:17:00] loving about them is it is kind of like Wolves at the Gate adjacent. It's really lovely music. It is melodic, so it's, there's not just that there's that kind of hard edge, but that is present in it. But, uh, the music is really lovely and beautiful, and in part that's because they're going through this, like, drip of releasing music where they're taking, like, old hymns or maybe songs if you're of a certain age like I am of kind of childhood Sunday school- And they're taking the lyrics, not the melody, and they're reimagining them. So they have two versions of Jesus Loves Me that they just released. They have the old We're Gonna Cross, a song called Glory to the King Most High. These songs are just saturated with gospel. Like, they're just all power, all encouragement, and all authority represented in Jesus Christ. They're incredible, and I've j- where I've, what I've been really blessed by is these two versions of Jesus Love Me are just fantastic. Like, they're orchestral. There is a children's kind of chorus at one point, and it got me [00:18:00] singing that song again, and really, maybe to what you were saying before, Tony, like sitting in those three words, which are really phenomenal words to hear. And so I have been surprised at how moved I've been by what really I, I first understood, of course, as a children's song with simple truth that seems, you know, depending on how long you've known some part of the gospel, obvious. And yet I found them all new again, and a, a really lovely way of just sitting in the truth of God in music that I didn't expect to find. So if you're interested in any of that or maybe just curious of what it would sound like if a Christian metalcore band took Jesus Loves Me and turned it into their genre, then honestly you should just go check out Throne Breaker. I mean, you pretty much have to at this point.  Tony Arsenal: I, I don't ever have anything to add to your musical affirmations or denials, 'cause I, I just don't. What I do have to add is that Throne Breaker actually sounds like some sort of really [00:19:00] amazing, like, mace-type weapon in Lord of the Rings. Yes.  Jesse Schwamb: Yes,  Tony Arsenal: it does. Or like a big hammer that a dwarf carries. And I would also like to say that if you ask Google Gemini to translate something into Tolkien English, it not only will do it, it will tell you how to pronounce it.  Google Elf: A ava aini Ilai amel i trona se.  Tony Arsenal: What do you think that was, Jesse?  Jesse Schwamb: No idea.  Tony Arsenal: First of all, that was elevated Quenya, a Quenya. Yes.  Jesse Schwamb: Yes, that's  Tony Arsenal: the one. Classic Quenya.  Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  Google Elf: A leta Ilai amel aima.  Tony Arsenal: I would be willing to bet... Actually, let's do this.  Jesse Schwamb: Ugh.  Tony Arsenal: Uh, we don't give out prizes very often. Uh, I will say to anyone who can tell me what that is, the first person that emails, uh, or, or goes into the Telegram chat, we'll do this. We'll be professional podcasters and drive people to one of our channels. Here we  Jesse Schwamb: go.  Tony Arsenal: The first person who goes to our telephone, our Telegram chat and tells me what that [00:20:00] means, what that, uh, Elvish means, will get a Reformed Brotherhood T-shirt.  Jesse Schwamb: Oh, that is big.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  Jesse Schwamb: That-  Tony Arsenal: So I'm gonna, I'm gonna play it one more time.  Jesse Schwamb: Okay, here we go. Everybody listen. Every- All right, pull over. Stop your vehicles. Here we go.  Google Elf: A leta Ilai amel aima.  Tony Arsenal: There it is, everybody.  Jesse Schwamb: I'm not being a cry- I have a guess, but I, I, I wanna try to win the T-shirt, so I'm gonna- Yes ... wi- withhold. All right. Uh, yeah, that's, that's super fun. Did it, um... Did you also translate it back into English from that  Tony Arsenal: just to see- No, I'll do that later, 'cause that would give away the, that would  Jesse Schwamb: give away the prize. Yeah, it's, it's... We'll have to save that for next week, because that, that is the fun. It creates, like, what I was doing to, to have fun with this coworker is take very technical, like, work-related emails, and I would send it through. It would go through that iterative process, and I actually loved how it, it was talking. Like, it wa- this was an email about risk, and it, it gave, like, these beautiful grand metaphors that didn't sound corny or cheesy. That's the beautiful thing. That's amazing. It [00:21:00] was like true Elvish. Like, you were just like, "I wish I spoke that way all the time about, about risk." And it, like I said, it wasn't just like... You could, you could obviously throw something in and be like, "Make this Shakespearean," or, you know, "Make this, you know, sound like, you know, Milton." This is way better. This is way better, because it's not, like, actually trying to manipulate what you're saying. It's takes, like, the dynamic equivalent of what you said, then translates it back with way more kind of poetic infrastructure while maintaining, like, the essential meaning that you have. I'm, I'm selling this too hard. Everybody just has to go out and try it. So, all right, you know what's at stake here, but here's how you have to win this. If you want a chance, if you want a chance at winning this, you gotta go to t.me/reformedbrotherhood, t.me/reformedbrotherhood, and that link will take you to the Telegram app and our little corner of it, and you're gonna find there's a bunch of chats there. You gotta go to the affirmations or denials chat, and then you gotta put in what is the translation of what Tony just played.[00:22:00] I just love... Isn't it amazing, though, that, like, y- as you discovered, there's more than one version of Elvish available? Yeah. And they do differentiate between the various kinds. This is a big deal. I learned there are actually scholars who have, like, again, filled in kind of like the details of the language- Oh, yeah taking as a basis what Tolkien had there. Yeah. So I think that this is the best. We couldn't have conceived of this if we'd actually tried and planned for it, so-  Tony Arsenal: It's true ...  Jesse Schwamb: it's just better that it all happened in, in real time. It's true. And, and speaking of which, I think now we get to have the fun of figuring out, uh, where in Luke chapter 10 are we gonna begin? Or should we just start in Luke 1 and just let's see how far we can get reading  Tony Arsenal: in this- I could have, I could have Google Gemini read it in elevated Kenya, Quenya I did try to get it to put it in Sindarin, and it wouldn't do it for some reason. I'm not sure. Maybe this anti-Sindarin bias in Gemini,  Jesse Schwamb: man. Disappointing.  Tony Arsenal: It's disappointing.  Jesse Schwamb: Dis- disappointing. So let's kick off some Good Samaritan talk, which again, I think is gonna take us [00:23:00] through maybe in the next couple of conversations, in part because, like I said, we're not even gonna start at, uh, verse 25 because there is so much more that needs to be said, I think, before that. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I, I think actually the proper place to start this, and I, I'm guessing Jesse probably, whether he was there or not, he probably figured out where I was going, uh, over the course of the last 20 minutes or whatever. Um, I actually think the proper place to start, at least one of the proper places to start, is in verse 21. Yeah. Um, and I- we'll talk about why that is. And I'll... I'm gonna read here, um, 21, uh, through the end of the parable. Uh, and this is Jesus talking. He says in this, uh... Well, it, this is, um... Yes, uh, I'll just read it here. "In the same hour He rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, 'I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for such was Your gracious will. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one who knows who the Son is except... No, no one knows who the Son is [00:24:00] except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal Himself.'" Then turning to the disciples, he said privately, "Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. For I tell you that many prophets and kings desired to see what you see and did not see it, and hear what you hear and did not hear it." And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?" And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered correctly. Do this and you will live." But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" Jesus replied, "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers who stripped him and beat him and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a priest was going down that road, and he saw him and passed on the other side. So likewise a Levite, [00:25:00] when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was, and when he saw him he had compassion. He went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. And he set him on his own animal and brought him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, saying, 'Take good care of him. Whatever you, whatever more you spend I will repay you when I come back.' Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?" And he said, "The one who showed him mercy." Jesus said to him, "You go and do likewise."  Jesse Schwamb: I think you're right, of course, to back us up into verse 21 because I don't want to keep saying it's always a setup, but Jesus is certainly giving us like the right context in which... Well, Luke of course is the author here and as he's explaining the teaching of Jesus, he does so well to start out with some irony that we don't realize is gonna be ironic until we get to the, to verse 25 [00:26:00] when we realize who's testing Jesus, who's setting this all up. So this idea that the Holy Spirit, everybody rejoicing in the Holy Spirit and the knowledge and the wisdom, the intelligence that's revealed through the Holy Spirit to all of these lesser people and in particular here emblematic the infants That here we have kings and rulers, and in this case, this beloved scholar of the law, who all have this adventure in missing the point. They think, in fact, they're looking for the one who is to set them free, and they can't even see that it's Him who is before him. And yet, incidentally, God has already revealed all these things to the lowest, to the ones who are the most humble, the meek, the mild, the down and outs, the ones who are weak by the view of everybody else. And so it's amazing that if we just kinda, again, like blow past it into, like, just all the characters, we don't see that the teaching starts actually well above this, that even everything we're about to understand, that unfolds in our lives, ev- every spiritual incarnation and insight that we have [00:27:00] first starts with God himself in his revealing it to us both in his general revelation, but of course, in the specific revelation of his teaching. So I like that you started us there, because I, I'm with you. That's where this whole thing launches off, right?  Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  Parables Reveal and Conceal Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and as we come into when we very, like very start of this, uh, series, the, the parable series, Jesus sort of embeds a theology of parables into this introduction, right? Or I should say Luke does. But this, uh, this is written a- as though all of this is occurring as sort of one event. Right. And likely it was, right? So sometimes, uh, in the Gospels, events are kind of, like, moved next to each other for thematic reasons. It's possible that that's the case. It seems like this may have actually just been one, one teaching, and I'll, I'll talk about why that is in a second here. Um, but at the very least, this is placed next to each other in the Gospel almost as, like a, "Here's the theology of parables. Now, here's actually that happening in real [00:28:00] time."  Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  Tony Arsenal: And then also, like, a parable kinda demonstrating it, right? So the theology of the parable here is that there are many prophets, kings who desire to see what it is that, that, uh, uh, the disciples are seeing, right? And all things have been handed over to the Father or to, to the Son, by the Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father. No one who knows who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal, right? So the, the theology of parables here presented in Luke is that the parable itself is being used as a way to reveal the Father and the Son to those whom the Son chooses to reveal it to. The Lawyer as the Fool Tony Arsenal: And that leaves us with this lawyer, um, sort of playing, playing the fool in almost like a dramatic sense, right? In a lot of drama, there's kind of like the fool character who's sort of like the foil or the idiot of the thing who's, who's unaware and is almost like made an example of, right? Um, I, I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but there's often a character in a play who's like, uh, it's [00:29:00] almost like the opposite of the everyman, right? The everyman in a, in a play- Right ... or in a movie is sort of like the outsider who things gets explained to, and he's sort of the proxy for, for the audience. Um, I think like, um, Hawkeye in Avengers is kind of the everyman. He's sort of just like this regular dude swept up in this thing, and oftentimes he's the one that, uh, the big characters are explaining things to. And really what that is is the big characters are explaining that to the audience through this proxy. There's also this concept of the fool in a lot of these plays or movies who's sort of like the dummy, the idiot of the play, who things are explained to, and it's still a way to explain it to the audience, but the character doesn't get it. And so that's kind of, kind of the role that this lawyer is playing in this, this narrative here. He, he steps forward. He's like, "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus answers his question, and then in this like sort of like stunning moment of, like unawareness, he's trying to justify himself. He says, "Well, who is my neighbor?"[00:30:00] As though that's a question that needed to be asked, right? I think, like, we sort of think of it as like, "Oh, yeah, that's a valid question." I actually don't think it is. Like, it's pretty obvious, in the Old Testament at least, who your neighbor is. It's the people who live immediately with you. It's the other people of Israel. It's the people in your immediate concentric circles, the people you have direct access to. Um, and so then Jesus explains it through this parable, and whether or not he gets it at the end, I guess is maybe a little bit unclear. We can talk about that as we get there. But at least in the beginning, he's portrayed as this sort of, like, fool who doesn't understand what Jesus is saying, and then this parable is taught. So it's this theology of, um, revelation to those whom it is intended to, and further obscuring from those it's intended not to, not to illuminate, which is identical. Uh, maybe it's a different flavor of the same thing, but it's the same thing as what Matthew had and what Jesus taught- Right ... in Matthew with the parables. Jesse Schwamb: Right. It definitely is, again, illustrating, again, God's divine prerogative. I think you really have to do a lot of theological gymnastics [00:31:00] to try to work yourself out of a place here that says, like, "Well, this, this knowledge is accessible to all people."  Tony Arsenal: Right.  Jesse Schwamb: That if somehow we just work hard enough, study hard enough, come even before God with the right attitude or do the right things, that somehow all this will be made plain to us, and that's certainly not the truth here. In fact, again, the ironic setup is you have this lawyer asking this question, which creates this strange contrast because here's a man trained in the law, and he approaches the very wisdom of God to test him while the little children already perceive what this fool cannot. So it's irony upon irony, and then I, I like what you're saying. I think, and we'll get to this to anticipate a bit, I'm reading this as he's hoping that the answer to whom is my neighbor, just like he- he's received the affirmative from Jesus saying, "Yes, you understand. Go and do these things. This is life," and we'll get to all of what that means, I think, as well in terms of the covenant of works and the covenant of grace. But I think he's hoping that the definition of neighbor is gonna mean that he has [00:32:00] already accomplished the thing then, so that if there's somehow- Yeah ... he could just set the right boundaries. He could say, "Ah, yeah, I'm already good then, Jesus. I already, already did all that stuff." So- It's wild to me that it, it all starts with, of course, like some kind of scribal specialist in the Torah, of course, likely some kind of Pharisee by theological alignment. And as I'm looking at the notes here, what I find particularly stunning as we start this out is that Luke, of course, is able to speak several times in this parable to the intent. And so he says right away with great kind of fanfare and description that the intent here from this scribal Torah person was to test or to tempt, which is the same verb used of Satan's temptation of Christ and of Israel's testing of God in Deuteronomy 6, which of course Jesus is gonna quote here later on. So it's not, of course, like sincere inquiry, like you're saying. It, it is like adversarial probing. It is like really profound setup. It is dripping with like [00:33:00] ulterior motive. It's seeking to expose Jesus as either like heterodox or as diminishing the law's demands. And I think we've talked about this before, so Tony, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure in one of the previous parables we talked about sometimes how these get set up with this kind of weird like oxymoronic setting. Inherit Eternal Life Debate Jesse Schwamb: So like this question of se- uh, uh, itself, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?  Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  Jesse Schwamb: It's like more than just theologically revealing. Biblically it's self-contradictory, 'cause of course like we talked about inheritance, I think actually when we went through the, the parable of the prodigal. By definition, that's received, of course, on the ba- basis of relationship or promise. It's not earned by performance. And if the inheritance comes by a law, it no longer comes by promise, right? I think that's like Galatians. So the lawyer's question already portray- portrays like some kind of weird works righteous paradigm. E- even if you think he's really after trying to understand the true intent of God's heart [00:34:00] behind the law, he is assuming at least in this question that eternal life is some kind of wage that he can earn rather than a gift to be received by grace through faith. And that's a fundamental error that the entire subsequent exchange, including the parable, is designed to expose. It's both, like you're saying, Tony, he has not learned yet what it means to be in the kingdom of God. He's outside of that, and so he's trying... Now Jesus is bringing in this corrective action, as it were, set up in a story, but he's gonna turn the law on him, which, which I don't wanna get too excited about that yet. But he's... But essentially, here we have somebody who's the expert in the law trying to leverage the law by way of force against the one who he does not understand has all leverage and authority over him, and is in fact the law giver himself So he's gonna, Jesus is gonna drive him to see his own ability to keep the law that he claims to honor, and that's more than just brilliant. This is what the law does. You do not wanna pit the law against the one who has given the law, the [00:35:00] one whose character is represented in the law, because you're always going to get owned, and you'll get owned before you realize you've just gotten owned on multiple levels, and I think that's what basically unfolds here. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I, I have a little bit of a different take on the, the word inherit here. Um, I don't think what you're saying is wrong, um, but I think there's a little different flavor here, and actually, I, I think it, it still sort of propels us forward to the conversation we have to have, um, about the law and the gospel and the covenant of works, the covenant of grace. The, the Greek that lays under this word is, uh, it's a compound word of the word for, like, lot or portion and the word for law. And so, so the, this force of the word is more along the lines of, like, what shall I do to have a legal right to eternal life? Like- Right ... inherit, I think we hear inherit, and we think of, like, um, like what you get when someone dies, and so, like, obviously there's nothing you do to earn it, and that's certainly an element of the way this [00:36:00] word is used in some instances. I think reading this and kind of how, how the rest of the text plays out, this lawyer is coming forward and he's like, "What do I need to do to have a rightful legal claim to eternal life?" Right? We might even be able, and this is where it comes into the covenant of grace, covenant of works k- kind of paradigm. We might even be able to say that what this lawyer or this person comes forward to ask Jesus is, how do I gain, how do I gain the benefits of the covenant of works, right?  Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: Yep. That's language that was developed later that's not, not, like, biblical language in terms of, like, the actual language within the text, but that's the force of what he's saying. What must I do to be a rightful legal... Uh, what must I do to have a rightful legal claim on all of the blessings of the covenant of works, is really the question that's here. And so Jesus' answer is so instructive- Right ... 'cause what he says is, "Well, what's written in the law?" Like, he, he basically says, like, "Well, you should be able to tell me, teacher- Exactly of [00:37:00] the law, like, what, what needs to happen there." And there's an assumption on Christ's part that, like, there is an answer. I think sometimes, sometimes we, we, uh, we make an error in thinking that the covenant of works was never attainable, that it's somehow this, like, um, it's almost like a black box. Like, nobody could know what we have to do to, like, obtain eternal life. That's absolutely not the assumption Jesus makes. Jesus not only knows that there's an answer, it's such a straightforward answer that he expects this scribe to be able to answer it, right? And the scribe can, right? The scribe says, "Well, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, your soul, your mind, your strength, and your neighbor as yourself," right? The summary of the law. Just good old classic Westminster larger, shorter catechism. Where's the law summarily comprehended? Summarily comprehended in the Ten Commandments. And then, then again, I don't know the questions exactly, but then it also, like, says, like, "Where does Christ summarize this?" Well, you should love the Lord your God, and you should love your [00:38:00] neighbor as yourself, right? Covenant Works and Grace Tony Arsenal: So the, the lawyer comes forward and says, "What do I need to do to have a legal right to all of the blessings of the covenant of works?" Christ says, "Well, what do you think?" He says, "Well, you obey the entirety of the law." And he says, "You've answered correctly. Do this. Obey the entirety of the law and you will live." So the parable itself doesn't necessarily speak to this law, gospel, covenant of works, covenant of grace paradigm. The, the parable is used to show that not only does this lawyer know what is required of him, but that he won't do it.  Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: And I think that's really key, because even in the parable, within the parable itself, there are these figures that know what they should do, right? I, I think, um, we'll get into it, but there's a lot of ink spilled on almost like, um, explaining [00:39:00] why the priest and the Phar- phar- and the, the Levite almost like did the right thing by going to the other side of the room, and it points to like, well, their priestly and Levitical responsibilities, if they touch a dead body, like they can't do those things, and those things are so important. Like, there's a lot of ink spilled trying to almost explain why what they did is right, when the point of the parable is that actually we all know what the right thing to do in that sense was. And even the most righteous people in the mind of the hearers, the Levites and the priests, the most righteous people, even they don't do what they're supposed to do. Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: This, this paradigm, this gospel law paradigm, law gospel paradigm, this covenant of works, covenant of grace paradigm, is so baked into the very like fabric of, of human thought that it's just there. And Christ takes this time to point out to this lawyer, like, "You know what's expected of you." And so that's why the phrase desiring to justify himself is so key [00:40:00] here. I actually think that the, the, the I don't wanna go so far as to say, like, that this person was regenerated in the midst of this conversation, 'cause I don't know that. But I actually think that there's a forward movement of this lawyer as he interacts with Christ that is optimistic. I'm optimistic about it, right? Right. He starts out trying to test Jesus, then he star- then he moves to having a desire to justify himself. I think we hear that, we read that, desiring to justify himself, we automatically think that that's a negative thing. But if we think about justifying himself in terms of what he's talking about, how do I fulfill the obligations of the covenant of works, that's not a bad thing to wanna do. Right. It's not bad to wanna obey God's law and to lay claim to His promises. It's a misguided notion of something we can't accomplish, but in itself, desiring to justify himself is to desire to fulfill the obligations of the covenant of works. That's not necessarily a bad thing. And so I think this is a merciful, a merciful [00:41:00] teaching on Christ's part. He's trying to instruct this guy to say, "Look, you can't do it. And even if you could do it, you wouldn't do it. So let's, let's talk about mercy instead and what that looks like." And that's where we get to kind of the end of the, uh, the end of the parable.  Jesse Schwamb: And again, we have to remember that we know that the intent here is actually to test or try Jesus, so He's certainly being merciful by using this opportunity not to just put him on blast, but to actually provide true instruction. And of course, like, that was, to some degree, this turning the question back would've been, like, a rabbinic pedagogical technique, but theologically, this is what floors me, is from the jump, Jesus refuses to let this man treat Him merely as one more voice among competing rabbis. Yeah. Instead, He holds that lawyer to the standard of God's own revealed word by, like you said, asking not just what does it say, but how do you read it? Mm-hmm. He's pressing not just for, like, some kind of recitation, but for the lawyer's own understanding and application, and Jesus is gonna hold him [00:42:00] accountable to his own hermeneutic. So by, by the time we get the answer, we know as readers, and all those present would've understood, he already knows the right answer, and he's not ignorant to God's requirements. He already summarizes the whole moral law correctly, encompassing both tables of the Decalogue. And so I think that does lead us then to this statement that we probably should spend a little time on, like, do this and you will live, like you introduced for us. Like, what does that even mean? Because i- it's not, like, in my view It's not like a Pelagian or Arminian concession that law keeping actually saves. I mean, it is the covenant of works principle stated truly inexorably that the law as law does promise life to perfect obedience. But that's the exact problem. I, I like what you said that it's not as if we can't understand what it would be to comprehend or contemplate this perfect law and what it means to fall under the covenant of works. It's just that he also presents for us at the same time this covenant of grace in which life is [00:43:00] granted freely through faith in the mediator who alone fulfills all of these laws' demands. So it's wild in this back and forth that's happening here where it's... I don't even know if it's fair to say this is like the most incredible subtext ever. I'm imagining trying to process this in real time and realizing everything that's being said, not just listening to what's being said and like the technical answers going back and forth. But I think like you said, that the Spirit even here is at work, I would like to believe, in the life and at the heart and the mind of this lawyer who's bringing forward this question with nefarious intent first to test and to undermine, and then is being drawn in almost inexorably into this debate to more profound understanding about a covenant based on works that cannot be accomplished, uh, in perfect obedience except through the mediator who organizes and distributes liberally this covenant of grace to his children for whom he has accomplished at least passively and then actively in his obedience in life and death. And so Jesus' reply is, I [00:44:00] think, thus a very genuine like if that functions to expose an impossibility. I, I don't think he's teaching salvation by works here, of course. He is holding out the law's own terms so that the lawyer and everybody else listening, and even us as well, can discover through this narrative which is about to happen the impossibility of self-produced righteousness, which again is what this gentleman is theologically all about. He's trying to justify himself. And that is precisely the pedagogical strategy like Paul uses later when he systemizes all of this by saying that the law was our guardian or school master until Christ came in order that we might be justified by faith. I think- Yeah ... and it's only because God is good to us and we might sit in some of this teaching, I think this is all in play. So, so I ask you, like, have I gone too far with all this? Like, how much do you think in the real time was being processed? And maybe that's a horrible question to ask because we know the Spirit does this work of illumination and enlightenment, and we're on the other [00:45:00] side of this and have this time to sit and to kind of parse and to really kind of just be pickled in all of this. But there's so much happening here, right?  Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, maybe I'll answer the question a, a little bit of a different way. I think, um- We often can think about Old Testament religion, if we wanna kinda call it that. We think about Old Testament religion as though it was totally uniform and, um, entirely legalistic. Right. Uh, my- the, the listener is gonna panic a little bit when I say this, so please don't freak out, but I, I think N.T. Wright, uh, and some of the new perspective on Paul stuff is a, a little bit helpful in this, in that it gives us a foil to sorta push against. Yes. The new perspective on Paul is this idea that, um- Paul was not saying that Judaism was legalistic and Christianity is a grace-based religion, right? He, m- [00:46:00] um, N- NPP is not, is saying, um, Paul was not correcting New or Old Testament religion. And where they go wrong is that they say that Paul actually retains this concept of covenantal faithfulness, covenantal nomism fidelity. Uh, where I think, where I think they're right is that this idea that, like, the Old Testament religion is entirely legalistic and Paul was just sort of correcting that, I think that's way too simplistic. And the reason I say that is that the Mosaic Covenant for, you know, w- and predominantly this podcast is coming from a sort of Westminster Confession of Faith Presbyterian perspective, give or take, right? The, the broad Reformed tradition would say that the, the Mosaic, uh, covenant, the Davidic Covenant, all of the covenants of the Old Testament, and we can break them up in all sorts of different ways, but all of the covenants of the Old Testament, [00:47:00] um, with maybe the exception of the Noahic Covenant, and there's some debate about that, all of those are They're not just, like, supporting structures for the covenant of grace, but they actually are the covenant of grace in various administrations. If that's true, and of course we believe that it is, if that's true, then the people of those covenants understood that on some level. Right. Right? So to think that, like, people under the administration of the covenant of grace somehow thought that they were operating under a legalistic framework doesn't make any sense. Jesse Schwamb: Yeah,  Tony Arsenal: that's true. So, so where I think that applies here is I think this person coming forward, it's not as though the concept of the covenant of grace... Again, that's language that we would develop later, but the concept that God graciously saves His people by the counsel of His own will, apart from their works of righteousness, apart from their meritorious effort, that God [00:48:00] simply extends His grace and conveys the cov- the blessings of the covenant of works to those who trust in the mediator, those who trust in the one to come, the, the forthcoming serpent-crushing seed, right, if you wanna use- Right language from Genesis 3. The, the idea that God simply graciously conveys the blessings of the covenant of works to those people Um, that's not something that's alien to the Old Testament, right? It's not alien to the, even to the Mosaic economy. The most law-based of all of the Old Testament, um, covenants, even that starts with the concept that these people are God's people who he redeemed out of Egypt, right? Right. The redemption out of Egypt comes before the giving of the law, and the giving of the law is a result of the redemption out of Egypt. So to think that this lawyer comes forward, and again, this had been sort of corrupted and distorted and had become a very works-based, uh, [00:49:00] meritorious-based understanding. But the idea that this framework of a covenant of grace is totally alien to this guy just doesn't, it just doesn't, I think it doesn't play. And so I think rather than us read this as I think sometimes we do, of Christ as kind of like giving this guy, trying to give this guy an entirely new paradigm, or like the rich young ruler is very much a parallel kind of situation. We read this, this guy comes forward, he's like, "What do I gotta do to earn eternal life?" Christ is like, kinda basically says like, "Well, you dum-dum, you can't. And I'm gonna demonstrate for you that you can't by- Right ... taking sort of like this situation that you can't possibly believe that you fulfilled and telling you to fulfill it." That's the outcome of this. We'll get to that when we get to the end of the parable. Um, he's not trying to give them a new paradigm. He's trying, in my opinion, he's trying to sort of reorient them back to the true paradigm of grace that is present under all of the Old Covenant administrations. So it's not so much a matter of like [00:50:00] developing a new framework and impli- like imposing this new framework on this guy. It's really trying to say like, "Listen- Think about this for a second, dude. Think about this, right? Think about the fact that, yes, you know you have to love the Lord your God with your whole heart, your whole soul, your whole strength, your whole mind, and you have to love your neighbor as yourself, right? You've answered correctly. If you can do those things, you will live. With the subtext, which I think is what you're getting at, the subtext of, like, and of course you cannot possibly do those things. Right. Right. So what's the alternative, my friend? The alternative is not justifying yourself by somehow identifying who the person is that you have to love the most. The, the, the, um, the... Well, we'll get this when we get to the parable itself, but the, the alternative is... This will be interesting, 'cause I'm not sure that we... I don't know where you are on this, but, um, the alternative is that there's someone out there who shows us mercy. [00:51:00] Right. There's someone out there who takes care of our need despite our total inability to do so. Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  Tony Arsenal: That's the alternative to the covenant of works, is the covenant of grace. I m- maybe I'm, like, hinting at it too much, so I'll just say it. Like, Jesus is the Good Samaritan, right? Like, there's something for us to learn about our own justification here and our own- Right ... like, um, our own need to be merciful, to treat people as our neighbors. But just like we talked about when we talked about, like, what does the least of these mean, this parable, uh, I'm totally, like, burying the lede for next, next week, but that's fine. This parable is not primarily about us figuring out how to do mercy ministry. Right. Like, that's important. It's probably an outcome of this. It's probably something for us to think about. But really, this is actually Christ saying, like, "Hold on a second here, dude." Like, "Let's just think about this." Do you need someone who is going to tell you to pick yourself up off your bootstraps and cross to the other side of the street and leave you to [00:52:00] your own devices? Or do you need someone who's gonna throw you on their donkey, who's gonna bind up your wounds, who's gonna pay the innkeeper, and is gonna pledge to play- pay everything that is owed for your salvation? Right? That's not too on the nose here, I think. Right. And, and I really look forward to, like, unpacking that, although maybe we don't need to now, but I think, like, this parable is so much more about how salvation works than it is about, like, what it means to have a good neighbor and to be a good neighbor. I think we get bogged down in that, and I just am really excited to talk more about, like, what I think this parable actually gets at.  Jesse Schwamb: I agree, and it's happening in the context, like we said, again, of animosity. It's not just as if this gentleman came forward with the best of intentions, altruistically saying, "I just really wanna understand how to do mercy ministry really, really well so I can follow God the Father." It happens in the context of testing, of enmity, more or less, and yet here's the kindness of Jesus even to instruct against that without coming quickly with judgment, but [00:53:00] in a more direct way, searching the heart. And so I think you're right. I mean, Luke is not being accidental here. He's characterizing, of course, the lawyer's entire project as an attempt at self-justification, and the fundamental posture of the gospel exposes and overturns. That's really what Jesus is leading us into as we're about to get into this, which we'll, we'll gauge into all those verses in the next conversation. But having been told, like, the law's true demand and its true terms, the lawyer, I think, does sense his exposure, and he instinctively then seeks to narrow the command's scope rather than repent of his inability to keep it, and that's what then leads- Yeah into this whole parable teaching. It's that whole question of, "Well, then who is my neighbor?" I think it is important for us to, to just kinda sit in that a second because really he's... I think, in my view as I'm reading this, he's looking for a legal, a legal loophole of some kind. I really do think it's a definition of neighbor that he hopes will be narrow enough that he might plausibly claim to have fulfilled the command already, and thereby [00:54:00] that is the very thing that Luke says explains why he's trying to justify himself. Here's what I would say in closing up, like- Yeah ... that particular verse, and the thing that maybe we can use as a launching point for next time. But there is something in this that I think is, like, a dramatic warning, at least as I'm reading it in this exchange just over this question of, who is my neighbor? And to me, the reason why this is, like, so striking and so just grabs my attention is because it seems to me there's, like, a huge anthropological point being made. At least, that is the way I'm understanding this, and that point is something like it's a striking case study in this idea of total depravity and the noetic effects of sin. And here's what I mean by that, is- Here you have this guy who is trained in all the right ways, should have all of this deep and profound knowledge of all of the details, and probably, of course, spent most of his life, however much that was, studying all of these things to such a, a finite degree that he'd understand all of the principles at play here and all the cross-referencing of those [00:55:00] principles to an exceptionally deep level. And even a man with accurate theological knowledge, which Jesus has affirmed, instinctively deploys that knowledge in service of self-justification rather than repentance the moment he senses conviction And I do sometimes get worried in my own life and sometimes just generally as we s- as you said, Tony, in Reformed circles, that we can sometimes have a tendency to do that. We get caught up in the wrong things. We love our argument. We have high conviction about the things that we think we understand exceptionally well, and we wanna levy all of that knowledge and experience and words that we have to describe that when it may be that there's a moment where what we need to do when we sense conviction about something is not to double down on any kind of self-justification. Especially if, like you're saying, Tony, has not led us to repentance or to exhibit and put into practice the very theology that we preach, but instead pushes us in a direction where we just take that knowledge and we actually use that accurate [00:56:00] theological knowledge in service of self. That is, I think, a warning that is behind some of this conversation here, and it illustrates, I think, the Reformed insight that the fundamental human problem is not primarily ignorance, but it is the will's bondage and the heart's self-love. It's a problem no amount of correct discipline or doctrine alone can fix apart from some kind of regenerating grace, which is exactly what Jesus is going to illustrate for us in the mercy that he's about to display in this parable.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  Good Samaritan Teaser and Wrap Tony Arsenal: Maybe as a little teaser for next week, I think this is yet another example where Christ answers the question that is immediately posed to him, right? Mm-hmm. The question is, who is my neighbor? The answer is, like, your neighbor is whoever's in front of you, right? The better neighbor is the one who, who showed mercy. And but then on top of that, he's kind of pushing past that to be like- Yes ... the [00:57:00] question you're asking is, is about A, but I'm gonna answer yes. I'm gonna answer your question, but I'm gonna push you so far past that that we, we, we need to see this on a kind of like the dual levels or the, the triple levels that Christ presents. So I th- I think your, uh, obviously your assessment that this was gonna extend into a second week was apt. I think we're probably looking at at least three- because w- we need to explain the parable, but then there's so much that comes- Yeah ... that comes out of that, of what that means, not just for... Like I said, I know, like, sometimes I can look at these and I can get a little bit too on the, like, this isn't about mercy ministry. Like-  Jesse Schwamb: Right ...  Tony Arsenal: it is about mercy ministry, right? Like, Christ is talking about the idea that, like, the one, the, the good neighbor is the one who is the one who takes care of those who are in need in their presence, right? But there's a second and maybe a third level of this beyond just like take care of the person who's [00:58:00] injured that you come across on the way to work, right? This isn't just saying if you see someone stranded on the side of the road who's trying to change their tire and you don't have a compelling reason that you can't stop, go ahead and do it. Like, that's a, that's a obvious takeaway. Like, yeah, if someone is in need, take care of their need. There's multiple levels beyond that that we need to unpack that I do think, I think we can go too far, right? Yes. We can get all tied up in like oil and wine, oil and wine. Yes. Like- Right ... I actually think there's something there we need to unpack.  Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: Maybe not what the Patristics thought was there, maybe. Right. I don't know.  Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: But like there's multiple levels to this parable that we need to unpack that I think a surface level read of this as strictly like your neighbor is the person closest to you, take care of the people around you, that's a true principle, but that's like scraping the bare surface of this parable when there's multiple layers and depths for us to get at. So I'm super excited. This could be like a I don't know. [00:59:00] This could be its own multi-week long series or multi- For sure ... month long series in its own. We're probably not going to do that, although who knows? Uh, the Lord knows. But, um, but we do wanna spend the time that this parable deserves. I call it one of the big daddy parables for a reason. There's so much here, and that's part of the reason why this parable, and I would say along with, like, the Prodigal Son, this parable has worked its way not only into the Christian mindset, but into, like, the very basics of, like, the English language of what it means to be a good neighbor and someone who takes care of those who need something. It's called the Good Samaritan. Right. So this, this parable is so, like, culturally foundational in the West. It's so, so central to what it means to be a, a generous, charitable, mercy-driven Christian. And it's also, as I alluded to before, like, it is a almost like a t- [01:00:00] typological parable pointing to the fact that Christ is the ultimate Good Samaritan. All of those things are things we're gonna need to unpack to really give this parable justice. So I don't know, seven, eight episodes. Uh, the next 500 episodes. I don't know how many it's gonna be. Buckle. But buckle up, because it's gonna be good, and I'm excited for it.  Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, strap in. It's a, it's a BDP for sure, and I hope that people don't think that we just belabor these. We're really not trying. It's not like we need to try to squeeze, like, multiple episodes out of these. Yeah. And you might be listening thinking, "Just get on with it already." I think, and I don't wanna speak for you, Tony, but what I've been discovering as we've gone through these and, and discuss these, is we've talked of course about taking the time, about the low and slow crockpot approach. All that stuff is true. It's just, I think equally what's important is what you've kind of led us to here, which is because of all of the things happening around this, because of not just the setup and not just the context, but the enormity of what's being asked of Jesus, of, like, what... Again, Luke gives us, not in [01:01:00] an accidental kind of way, but in a direct way, understand the intent that we should realize that this story is a lot more than just, like, help people who are hurting or help those who are down and out. Yes, of course. At the same time, I think Jesus is using that as a way to explain something profoundly theological, profoundly important about the Father's character, profoundly abo- important about his, his own mission, which is for all people, all nations, all tribes, all tongues. And so I think it is important to kind of take our time getting into that, because it just seems that I think, I, I think we would be remiss and we would not feel like we've kept a good and clear conscience ourselves if we didn't take time to discuss all those things, like, with each other. And so we want to spend time really wading into, not, like, all the intricate details and the wordplays and the, the textual criticisms just for their own sake, but because we do believe, even before we get to the characters here, [01:02:00] that there's something for us already, and that there's something deep and moving that we ought to be considering before we're caught and swept up into the drama that Jesus is about to unfold. And in fact, that that drama is w- made way more rich, that we find that its depth is further than we could have considered before if we would pause right here and really try to understand what is happening. Why is this, this lawyer asking these things? And what is Jesus actually saying to him by forcing him to reevaluate the own law that he brings forward? And then again, uh, for ourselves, do we ever do the same type of thing? So there is a lot to consider, and that's why we never probably get as far as we think we're going to get. But aren't all good conversations like that? When you get to talk to somebody that you love, and I certainly love Tony, I love the scriptures, love talking. Isn't it always one of those things where you think you're gonna sit down, and you look at your watch, and you think, "How, how long has it been?" And you find it's been an hour when you thought it was only 20 minutes. It's been two hours when you thought you only had an hour to [01:03:00] spend. That's just how it goes. And so we're giving you the real thing here. It just, it so happens that you're joining us somewhere in the world via your phone- ... or your headset, but you're part of this conversation. So real quick, Tony, to emphasize again, if you either, one, want to win a T-shirt, or two, and even more so, the real prize is just coming, meeting other brothers and sisters who are hanging out with us. How can people go do that? One last time.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah. We have a little corner of the internet that we've carved out on a messaging app called Telegram, which is used for all sorts of things. But we use it as a place to hang out and do prayer requests, and taste new foods, and take videos of our do- ourselves doing that. That's right. Um, you can go to t.me/reformedbrotherhood, and that will take you either to a location to download the app if you don't have it, or if you already have it, it'll jump you straight into our channel. You can look around and see everything. There's no hidden channels. There's nothing you can't see just looking. Um, but if you wanna take the plunge and join, we would love to have you. [01:04:00] Um, I've said this before, and I, I stand by it 100%, I think it's probably the friendliest, most charitable corner of the internet in the reformed world. Um, I think there are plenty of, of sort of digital gathering places, and they all serve their own sort of unique purpose. Our, our little corner of the world is a place where people are kind to each other. Uh- Yes ... we pray for each other. Um, more than once, things have gotten heated, and the community has just voluntarily said, "This conversation is not worth us making each other into enemies, so we're just gonna move on. We're just gonna move on to something else." Um, there's a channel that is dedicated to baptism discussions. That's specifically called Charitable Baptism Discussions, and, uh, it really is that. So if that's something you're interested in, why wouldn't you be interested? Let's be honest. Like- Why not? ... why wouldn't you wanna hang out with other reformed Christians who are kind and gracious and exemplify the fruit of the spirit? Um, just go [01:05:00] to t.me/reformedbrotherhood. And if you can figure out what that weird, uh, Quenya phrase that I played on my phone was, uh, if you're the first person to mention it, you'll get a T-shirt. Uh- There you go ... and speaking of T-shirts, if you don't win the prize and you still want a T-shirt- ... you can go to, uh, reformedbrotherhood.com. There's a link to our merch store. There's T-shirts. There's some other stuff up there. Uh, there's very little overhead on any of that, but any overhead there is... Or not overhead. There's very little margin on any of that, but any margin that there is on that goes to support the show. Yes. Uh, it's not a lot, but if you're looking for some gear, uh, you wanna have our faces emblazoned on your chest for some reason, uh, you can go pick up a T-shirt there if you haven't won it, uh, or you can just be the fastest person to figure out what that was and win the prize. Jesse Schwamb: Well, everyone, loved ones, you know what's coming up, and Lord willing, if, uh, the Son of God tarries longer and he allows us a little bit more time, you know where we'll be. [01:06:00] We'll be right here next time, and we'll be finishing out... Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves. We'll be talking about the rest- ... of this parable. But until we all come back together again, listen, honor everyone.  Tony Arsenal: Love that brotherhood. 
• 
  Mark 13 and the Ordinary Means of Grace: Why Vocation and Vigilance Are Inseparable 14.08.2026 1h 4min

  In episode 501, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb dig into the parable of the watchful doorkeeper in Mark 13:32–37 — four tightly packed verses that Jesus uses to call his servants to alertness before his return. But this isn't a passage about spiritual caffeine and white-knuckling your way through the Christian life. Tony and Jesse unpack what "stay awake" actually means through the lens of Reformed theology: active, differentiated stewardship in the ordinary means of grace, faithful vocation in every sphere of life, and a corporate ecclesial readiness that belongs to the whole church, not just the individual. This episode reorients the familiar language of watchfulness away from anxiety and date-setting toward the sturdy, quiet confidence of a believer who knows who they are, whose house they serve in, and why that identity drives everything. Key Takeaways "Stay awake" is a command about identity, not performance. The doorkeeper doesn't do what he does to become the doorkeeper — he's already the doorkeeper. Christians are watchful because of who they already are in Christ, not to earn or secure that status. Vocation is not optional waiting — it's active, differentiated stewardship. Christ's ascension corresponds to the master's departure, and the interim period is characterized by each servant being given his own work, reflecting Calvin's doctrine of vocation and the Reformed insistence that the Christian life between the ascension and the Parousia is not passive. Watchfulness is corporate, not merely individual. The church, as the pillar and buttress of truth, is called to a collective readiness. In Presbyterian polity, every act of a valid church jurisdiction is an act of the whole church — meaning each member has a genuine stake in the faithfulness of the whole body. The ordinary means of grace are the means of watchfulness. Prayer, the Word, the sacraments, fellowship, and sitting under preaching are not supplementary to vigilance — they are the very instruments by which God preserves and prepares his people. Two errors must be avoided: speculative date-setting and practical indifference. Uncertainty about the hour of Christ's return is neither an invitation to calculate nor an excuse for carelessness. It is the very grounds for sustained, ordinary faithfulness. The warnings of Scripture are themselves a means of grace. Following Westminster Confession of Faith 17, the sobering warning of verse 36 is not a threat to the elect's final security but a pastoral instrument by which God preserves his people in living, active faith. The rooster-crowing language of Mark 13 anticipates the Passion narrative. The clustering of watchfulness, the night watches, and the crowing rooster in this chapter echoes the Garden of Gethsemane and Peter's denial — a connection particularly resonant given Mark's traditional association with Peter's testimony. Explanatory Paragraphs Vocation and the Active Interim One of the most theologically rich observations in this episode is the way Jesse frames the master's departure as corresponding directly to the ascension of Christ. The key phrase in verse 34 — "each one his task" — is not incidental detail. It reflects the Reformed doctrine of vocation at full strength: every believer, in every sphere of influence, has been given particular work to do on behalf of the Lord during Christ's bodily absence. This is not a passive waiting room existence. It is an active, differentiated stewardship that is deeply personal and yet accountable to the master who owns the whole house. The ascension does not mean abandonment, and the parable makes that clear by the fact that the servants are left in charge — trusted, commissioned, and expected to be about their work when the master returns. The Church's Corporate Readiness A standout contribution of this episode is Tony's move from the individual to the ecclesial. Drawing directly from OPC Book of Church Order, Chapter 3, he argues that church power is not vested in officers alone but in the whole body of believers. This means that when any legitimate church jurisdiction acts — whether in discipline, instruction, or governance — it is the whole church acting. The parable's doorkeeper is therefore not just a figure for personal piety; he is a figure for the corporate watchfulness that belongs to every member of the household. Tony's point is that a Christian who is disconnected from his local church, indifferent to what is being taught and decided elsewhere in the visible church, is not simply failing at individual holiness — he is failing to be awake in the fullest sense the parable intends. The Ordinary Means of Grace as Watchfulness Itself Perhaps the most pastorally stabilizing insight of the episode is Jesse's observation that watchfulness is not some extraordinary spiritual heroism layered on top of normal Christian life — it is normal Christian life. The ordinary means of grace are ordinary precisely because they are the regular, appointed instruments through which God delivers his grace to his people. Prayer, the Word, the sacraments, and fellowship are not preparatory disciplines that get you ready for the real work of being watchful. They are the work. Tony reinforces this by noting that a person who persistently refuses the ordinary means of grace is not simply being unwise — they are declining the offer of God's grace, which is a far more serious matter than mere spiritual lethargy. Memorable Quotes The doorkeeper doesn't do what he does to become the doorkeeper in this parable. He's already the doorkeeper, and the fact that he's the doorkeeper explains why he's given certain responsibilities and certain commands. That's the way it is for us as Christians. - Tony Arsenal The warnings of Scripture are themselves among the ordinary means by which God preserves His people... the sobering possibility of being found asleep functions pastorally not to threaten the loss of the elect, but to press home the seriousness of watchfulness as the fruit and evidence of genuine faith." - Jesse Schwamb When I go into a patient encounter at the hospital, or when I pull up to a red light, or when I order a sandwich at McDonald's and they get it wrong — I bring with me the fact that I am a Christian, the fact that I am a servant of Christ, that I am a doorkeeper in the house of the living God. - Tony Arsenal Full Transcript Jesse Schwamb: [00:01:00] Welcome to episode 501 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brother.  Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. Well, we've got some more kingdom teaching on tap right from the mouth of Jesus. We're going through all the parables, if you haven't been tracking with us so far, and we're finding ourselves in Mark chapter 13. And as J- only Jesus can do, packs four verses with all kinds of rich, robust theology, and it's all in this kind of strange setting, actually. A guy heads out of town. He hands his servants the keys. He tells the doorman, "Hey, watch the place," with the same kind of e- enigmatic and vague energy that I imagine, like, your cable internet provider gives you when they give you an arrival time between now and Friday. And then Jesus lists literally, like, every possible hour He might show up, evening, midnight, rooster clock, dawn. And all of this is for His glory and for our benefits. [00:02:00] And we're gonna somehow try to see if we can take all of these four verses, which are so jam-packed, and fit them into our conversation. That's our challenge, and it's gonna be yours to listen to. So welcome to this episode.  Affirm or Deny Segment Jesse Schwamb: But before we do all of that, it is everybody's favorite time. Well, except for Wicked Scriptures. That is really everybody's favorite time. Second favorite time is where we find something in our lives, Tony, that we either affirm with because it's awesome, it's exciting, want everybody to know about it, or conversely, we deny against something because it's just not that great. We don't like it. Don't waste your time with it. So everybody longs to know, in this conversation, are you affirming with or denying against?  Tony Affirms Psalm Music Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming something tonight. Uh, the listener might remember, I don't know, maybe a month and a half back, I affirmed a particular setting of Psalm 63 in the Trinity Psalter Hymnal. And as I was kind of, you know, looking around for, I wanted to find a track to sort of maybe add to the end of the episode just to sort of, [00:03:00] like, put a point on that. I stumbled on, um, a song, singer, I don't know if you'd call him a songwriter, 'cause he's mostly just writing song- psalms. But he's, he's arranging them. He's, you know, writing the guitar line for it or whatever. Uh, his name is Matthew David Montgomery. Uh, I don't know that you would know him from anywhere, but he's on, um- Apple Music, YouTube, Spotify, wherever. Uh, he does an arrangement of O God Show Mercy to Us, which is Psalm 63, uh, setting A, I believe, in the Trinity Psalter hymnal. But, um, it's, it's in other hymnals, other psalters, uh, under the same name with the same tune. Uh, he has a beautiful singing voice. He does a lot of, uh, what's typically called, like, finger style, uh, guitar picking, uh, which is just very melodious and very gentle and soft. Um, it would be a great addition to, like, your morning devotional time to just, like, pick a psalm that he sings, that he's, he's recorded. Um, you can get most of his stuff for free on, uh, YouTube, or again, if you have Apple [00:04:00] Music or Spotify, it's available there. Uh, again, his name is Matthew David Montgomery, and he's got several, uh, several albums. He has ones that specifically is psalms called Psalms for Singing. Um, and then he has a couple finger style hymn songs, uh, hymn albums that are like, you know, like I don't know, more modern hymns, He Will Hold Me Fast, Only Holy God- Right kinda like Getty, um, Getty-style and City Alight songs, those kinds of sort of that complex of modern hymnody. Um, but he's excellent, and it's excellent theologically rich sound music. Um, I haven't listened to everything, but he seems like he's in kind of that, uh, sort of vein of worship music production producer peoples, um, that are just putting out good, accessible music. I know, like, a lot of small churches, uh, have in the past have had to resort to using tracks like this actually to sort of lead their vocal music. Um, that would be something to think [00:05:00] about. It's simple. It's arranged in a straightforward fashion. Many times it's arranged according to the psalters, which are by, almost by definition are designed for congregational singing. So it's good. It's great. Use it for family worship, listen to in your car. I don't know, workout music. I don't know if you would work out to this, but I guess you could try. Um- I love it ... but yeah, I usually, I usually listen to, um, Oh God, Show Mercy To Us probably, like, once a day. I listen to it usually in the morning to kinda center my day and get my head in the right space. Um, but yeah, it's just good stuff. David, um, Mi- Matthew David Montgomery, uh, the specific one was Psalms for Singing, but, um, all of his stuff is really great.  Jesse Schwamb: All right.  Jesse Affirms Hymn Devotional Jesse Schwamb: People are gonna think we're totally conspiring now, but I promise we're not. This is just how our minds work in collective fashion, that we never speak about stuff together. So my affirmation is right in the same vein. So I'm actually excited about this one because it might just be the golden age of daily books about, like, theological meditation. It might be. And [00:06:00] so this one is really good, and I'm super stoked because I'm kind of on the cusp of this one because I got an advance copy of this book, and it's just out now. It's called Awake My Soul, and it's daily readings, 365 hymn texts taken throughout church history from the Middle Ages to 1900. And each hymn for the day includes s- a suggested tune and then, like, a short historical slash, like, theological meditation. The beauty of this- Wow One, I'm learning all kinds of new hymns that are not my favorite. Two, you can either read them or... There's no music included in this, except that in the back there's an index that will give you... There's, like, a little code every day. This is like a s- it's your own treasure hunt. There's a little code on each day, and if you take that code and go back to the end of the book, what you'll find there is names of popular hymns or songs that you do know the, the tune to, and then you can take that same tune and use the same poetic meter that the hymn is in that you don't know, and guess what? You can actually sing it. So you're prepared every day to sing [00:07:00] music and to sing brand-new music with great confidence and high conviction. So this is, like, the bridge here. Go listen to some good music. And I would say if you wanna buy this, because it is brand new, go to hymnworks.com. It's by P&R Publishing. That's where you'll find the best price. It's, like, 25 bucks. It's a beautiful clothbound, like, handsome two-color printing with a ribbon. And also Passion Week and Advent are clearly marked and can be adapted for use in any calendar year. So there you go. Like, it's the double-barreled affirmation for good singing, good hymns. By the way, for all the brothers and sisters of exclusive psalmody, we see you raising your hands in the back. Actually, if you're doing exclusive psalmody, you're in the front. So we see you in the front, and this- And you're  Tony Arsenal: probably not raising your hands.  Jesse Schwamb: You're definitely not raising your hand. We see your hands  Tony Arsenal: in your pockets. Jesse Schwamb: We see you standing there  Tony Arsenal: stoically.  Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. We see your hands in your pockets, never coming out. That's fine. Yeah. Uh, this book also is for you because so much of it is actually just, uh, the psalms adapted for kind of [00:08:00] more, when I say contemporary, between the Middle Ages and 1900 worship. So, uh, there you go. I think this is lovely. Uh, we didn't plan it, but you've got two great resources for daily living and daily singing.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  Building Daily Liturgy Tony Arsenal: And, you know, I think, um, there is sort of an element, and I'll be quick about this, where we are set up... We have such a, like, a dearth of riches in terms of accessibility to musical worship. And y- you know, used to think of it as, like, daily devotions, but I think the more, I think the more accurate and I think a, a more theologically rich term is a daily liturgy. Right. Um, you know, with books like Be Thou My Vision, um, by I think it's David Gibson, or, you know, he has, like, the Christmas version and the, um, I think there's an Easter version of it where it really walks you through a, a full daily liturg- liturgy with, like, a call to worship and a, a confession of sin. And, [00:09:00] um, and you could take these resources, whether it's an album like David, uh, or, like, um, David Michael Montgomery. That's a country singer, I think. Whatever the guy is that I recommend. I don't have his name in front of me. Uh, whether it's an album like that or whether it's- Right ... this resource Jesse's talking about, or like I've said before, like, just the trendy Psalter Hymnal app on your phone which will play the music for you and display the words. You can take this and there... I, I hate to say it this way because I know there's a lot of people that, that make good profitable use of sort of like evangelical, I would call it, like, fluffy devo kinda stuff. Uh, which ironically on my list of affirmations of things that are in the queue, there's, there's a devotional resource that even kinda falls into this category. Yeah, there is. But, um, there really is no good excuse for not having some sort of robust daily worship pattern. Right. Um, because you can, you can really make use of these resources to create a pretty cohesive, well put-together, pleasurable kind of [00:10:00] daily worship set or liturgy or experience, I don't know, whatever word you wanna slot in there. Um, a- and really get... Like, really just have an excellent experience out of it, really have good resources. So yeah, I'm, I'm on board. I think it's great. I would love to, I would love to be able to, uh, to take a look at that. So maybe next time we're in the same geographical location you'll have to show me. Jesse Schwamb: Oh, I'll bring it. We'll, we'll do it. It actually doubles as a hymnal because it's all indexed, so you can actually- Yeah ... just use it as a hymnal. I love books that give you two purposes. Oh, that's a double threat book right there. And that means, like, for the spaces taken up in your life and on your shelf it can do more than one thing. That's like having a kitchen appliance that, like, I don't know, is like an air fryer and it brews beer. Like, that's worth- Yeah ... the space all the time  Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I, I just recently found out that they make washers that are also dryers, and they're in the same machine, and- Wow.  Jesse Schwamb: That's transformative ... I  Tony Arsenal: would feel like a millionaire if I had one of those- Reading Mark 13 Parable Jesse Schwamb: 'cause- Well, speaking of [00:11:00] feeling like a millionaire, and I think what you challenge us with is settling in some patterns of daily worship and living for God, it just so happens that Jesus has some instruction for us in that same way- Nice ... in Mark chapter 13. So let me start beginning in verse 32. And if you're tracking along or keeping score at home and you've gone to this chapter, what you're probably gonna find is we're actually in the, the parable of the fig tree, or just at the end. But w- we're not gonna touch that one, not yet, so don't get too excited. We're actually coming right at the end of that. So picking up in verse 32: "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." Now, this is Jesus speaking: "See to it, keep on the alert, for you do not know when the appointed time will come. It's like a man away on a journey who, leaving his house and giving authority to his slaves, each one his task, also commanded the doorkeeper to stay awake. Therefore stay awake – for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the [00:12:00] evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning – lest he come suddenly and find you sleeping. And what I say to you I say to all: Stay awake." Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  What Stay Awake Means Tony Arsenal: Yeah, it's a good, uh, it's a good parable. And, you know, this is covering a lot of the same ground as other parables that we've, uh, approached. I think what's a little bit, uh, unique or different about this one is that some of the, some of the cautions that we, um, brought out with the other parables, because they were actually longer and had more details, um, some of those cautions don't necessarily apply the same way here. Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: Right? We, we talked about the parable of the 10, of the 10 virgins, or the wise and foolish virgins, whatever you wanna call it, and we talked a lot about how this language of, like, stay awake seemed to be misapplied, uh, as, like, falling asleep is foolish. Because in that para- that particular parable, [00:13:00] um, both the wise and the foolish virgins fall asleep. It's not the falling asleep that was the problem, it was the being prepared, um, for the master's return. Uh, in that case, having the proper equipment, having your, you know, your lamps trimmed, your oil ready, all that stuff. In this parable, um, it really is about being awake. Like, being awake is the task. Yes. It's the specific command. That's right. And so our task tonight is to unpack a little bit about what it even means to be awake, what does this parable say to us about that. Um, but I, I think this one falls a little bit more in line with kind of what we maybe... I know this is weird to say. It falls a little bit more in line with what we've been talking about as a, sort of like a little bit of a legalistic approach to some of the parables. This one really does have, I th- I think, has more to do with, uh, the, the sort of production that Christians are expected to have.  Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: The, the, the holiness, the good works we're expected to have, and how [00:14:00] that plays into kind of our alertness, our, our fittedness for service, uh, and, and maybe ultimately even the way that we're rewarded in the last, the last times or in, in heaven. All of that kinda plays in here, and this is kind of like Mark's equivalent to sort of like the eschatological parables that we talked about at, at the end of Matthew in, you know, Matthew 25 and, and sort of that area  Jesse Schwamb: I totally agree.  Vocation and Stewardship Jesse Schwamb: I think this bad boy, even just the first verse, it's like a compact statement of the doctrine of vocation and providence all wrapped into one. And it's easy to read it and just kind of fly by that stuff and say, "Of course, I need to be aware of what's going on. I need to be aware of God's presence or seek Him in worship." All that's true, but there's a lot in this because, of course, the master's departure here corresponds clearly to Christ's ascension. There's like a real bodily absence that nonetheless does not amount to like abandonment. And then to your point, what I think starts to differentiate us from some of like the [00:15:00] other parables where we've been very careful about parsing this, has been this assignment, each his own work. It's reflecting like a really traditional like Reformed, I think, emphasis, even from like Calvin's doctrine of vocation, that the Christian life between the ascension and the Parousia is not one of like passive waiting, but there is like an active differentiated stewardship, and it's every believer. And even though it's just a sentence, there's like a lot of particularity in this to remind us that each one has a task, and that task is something that you should undertake on behalf and for the Lord  Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and this, um, the other element of this, um, that I think is interesting is, you know, we don't wanna, um We wanna be careful not to try to build entire theological, like edifices, edifices. I'm not sure which word is right. Edifice. We don't wanna build huge theological structures on top of like slight variations in words. And, and I know that, um, that can [00:16:00] sometimes be very popular in our circles and, and I'm, I s- absolutely support the grammatical historical interpretive method. I don't think it's the only el- only, you know, hermeneutic we should think about. But I definitely agree with the words matter and the meanings of the words matter. Right. But we can also go too far in, like, making an entire theological point hang on the particular choice of a verb pars- like a verb tense or mood or whatever. But I think it's interesting, um, w- the sort of what we might call the parable proper starts in verse 34, but in verse 33 it says, "Be on guard, keep awake, for you do not know when the time will come." That's not the parable. That's Christ giving a command to his immediate audience, and then I think vicariously therefore for us. When we get into the parable and it, and it says, uh, that the command for the doorkeeper, right? So the, he, he takes his servants, he puts his servants in charge, and I s- I take that to mean, [00:17:00] like, he leaves the house to them. Like, he leaves them to their task. They're, they're not, they're not having to report to anybody. They just manage the household- Right ... autonomously or independently. Um, each with his work, so there's this idea that, like, each of the servant has their own proper sort of realm of the house that they manage, right? The gardener's managing the garden, the, the house, you know, the, the, um, the, the person who's in charge of the money is managing that. And the doorkeeper, which is a particular role, his task, his charge, his, he is commanded to stay awake. Now, the phrase, the word for stay awake in verse 30, uh, 34 is not the same word that's used in verse 33. Now, I, I have not done the word study on this or, or the c- commentary work to know how significant that is, but we do affirm that the Holy Spirit inspires each individual word.  Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  Tony Arsenal: And I think we could make an argument that sometimes a word is just used, um, at least on a, on a [00:18:00] human level. It, it's just you don't wanna use the same word multiple times. Like, just like anyone writing any sort of pi- piece of work, you don't use the same word repetitively. You vary the words. You use, use synonyms to, to spice it up and to give it some variety. But also, I think there may be some significance in the fact that within the story, within the parable, the command to stay awake is a particular word, and then a different word to stay awake and to be watchful, and there's this repetition, "Be on guard. Keep awake." Like, those are parallel statements. Um, those, that's a significant thing that that word is different  Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. It's a huge, I think, reminder that there's all... The- even, again, I can't believe how much is packed. Now that I think about this, we start talking about it into, like, a single sentence. But every believer, like every servant in this house, has been given some kind of task suited to his place. I believe that's what Jesus is trying to impress us with. And that idleness is not an option countenanced by the text because the doorkeeper's [00:19:00] particular charge to watch, like you were saying, functions to me, I think, almost like a synecdoche. Like, it's f- for the whole- Yeah ... household's duty. His vigilance stands for what is in fact required of every servant, since verse 37 will then extend this command to, like, everybody. So just- Yeah ... within, like, this little space of writing or this little space of teaching, I think what we have here is, like, it's realistic for us to say we've got the twin realities that ground really biblical ecclesiology in the interim period. We have Christ's real absence, but that's, like, against, I would say, any collapsing of the already into a fully realized eschatology. And then you have Christ's ongoing ownership and authority over his house, which is the church, against any notion that the church is left to autonomous self-governance. So the house, in other words, re- remains Christ's, and the servants remain accountable to him, not to themselves, like you've just said, and each one is accountable to God in a unique way according to the task that he's given them. So again, this beautiful marriage of [00:20:00] both the responsibility, the providence, and the responsibility that we have before God in being responsible to him, but also that he is governing all things for his good and for his glory.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  Doorkeeper Role Explained Tony Arsenal: And you know, I think, um, the word doorkeeper here too, uh, you know, as I peek at the Greek a little bit, the word doorkeeper is also a much broader term than, uh, it might seem. You know, like I think, you know, one of my kid's favorite shows is like Curious George, and there's a character in the, the story that's literally named Doorman, and he's just the guy that like opens the door in the apartment that- Right ... Curious George and the Man in the Yellow Hat. But the word doorkeeper in, uh, in the Greek here, when applied to a, a female, is understood to be like the janitor. So the doorkeeper might even be considered something more like the master of the house. Like think of like, um-  Jesse Schwamb: Lady's ...  Tony Arsenal: uh, like the, the head butler, right? In like if you think of like Downton Abbey, right? Right. The, the guy who actually like takes care of and like [00:21:00] runs, the house manager or something like that might be a better way to look at it. And I think you're right that his charge to stay awake, to keep alert, it does extend to the entire household, but it also is a particular command for that figure.  Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: Right? So yes, everybody is given their task. This, this person, this doorkeeper, he is, um, called out specifically, individually, right? It's not as though he's the only servant in the house. There's all these other servants, they each have their task, and they're all commanded to keep about their business. The doorkeeper, the master of the house, the, I don't know, head butler, the head ch- the chief janitor, I don't know what you would want, the head custodian of the house, um, and don't think of custodian or janitor in terms of like- Like the school janitor who like cleans the toilets and mops up after the kids throwing up and stuff. The, the janitor or the custodian of the house is really the person who kind of like runs the household, the sort of like head servant of the house. [00:22:00] His command to keep watchful, to be on guard or to be alert is because, um, the, the master's return is sudden and unexpected. Right. And so if the doorkeeper doesn't keep up with things, if he's not awake, if he's not running things, if he's not managing things, if he's not alert and awake, then not only does his task get, get, um, undone... And I think like we think of it like, "Oh yeah, be on guard." You sometimes hear this parable or, or variations of this parable taught as like you gotta keep the wolves out, like he's the guard at the door. Right. I don't think that's what this is getting at. It's really more like if this, if the doorkeeper s- falls asleep on the job, then the entire house falls into disarray, and you can't recover that when the master all of a sudden is at the gate. If you're just the guard, I guess you might be able to snap to attention and like, you know, pull your pole arm or whatever it is up. Like you might be able to snap to attention and kind of fake it. But if you're the guy who manages the entire household and the [00:23:00] whole household is in disarray because you've fallen asleep on the job, there's no recovering from that when the master taps you on the shoulder and says, "Please wake up, I'm home." You just can't recover from that. And so I think that's, that's the element of the story, the element of the parable that we probably need to think about a little bit more is, all right, w- no one of us is the doorkeeper of the church.  Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  Tony Arsenal: But also none of us are not the doorkeeper of the church. So like we all have a role and a responsibility in, in the church to sort of like be a part of, an active part of the church, an active part of God's kingdom, which is not, I'm not trying to say we're all gatekeepers, right? We're not all called to be r- to rule over the church. Like there's a particular office of ruling elder that I would say exists, uh, you know, that's codified in the OPC. But even within other kinds of s- setups, there's usually some sort of elder, you know, setup where there's elders that are not teaching elders. They're not there to like teach and minister and, and preach. They're there to [00:24:00] like govern the church and support the needs of the body spiritually. That's really, uh, you know, like a particular office, but that's also a task and a role that we all share as Christians is to, to sh- sort of, I almost said shepherd, but that doesn't feel right, but it also doesn't feel wrong. To sort of like manage the business of the congregation and the church- That's right ... and the, the invisible church as a whole. That's the task of every Christian, and that's really what this parable's getting at, I think.  Jesse Schwamb: I think so too. And I, I don't wanna, like, build too far a bridge away from that point. I think it's worth sitting there for a second because what occurs to me as you were saying that is I just happened to be reading Calvin's commentary this morning in 1 Corinthians 5, and he builds this whole theological argument around this idea that he, he basically is saying, "Why should the Corinthians mourn over one man's sin?" And he gives two reasons. First, as a consequence of the communion that exists among the members of the church, it's becoming that all should feel hurt at or so it's deadly if one of their members should fall. And the second is when such an erroneous sin is [00:25:00] perpetrated in a particular church, the perpetrator is an offender in such a manner that he pollutes the whole society. That is to say, I think it's kind of in line with what you're saying, that corruption in one place will affect the entire body. That is like falling asleep, pulling away from the mission Being found outside of the mission of God's, uh, for God's glory is something that hurts the church body. And we might ask, like if there is in our own lives a persistent sin, some kind of corruption, then we ought to ask, is there any form of corruption that we're contributing to the body of God? And I think those, these like real consequences of what it means to live in a way where we find ourselves, again, outside of what it means to worship whole heartedly, to worship with heart, soul, and mind, all of which we do imperfectly. Yet at the same time- Yeah ... are we being awake? Are we being made aware? Watchfulness and Rest Jesse Schwamb: I, I wonder if part of what's envisioned here and in view with Jesus' teaching is not just this idea... Almost like I think sometimes we, we say stay awake or we say be [00:26:00] watchful, and of course like I love that Jesus mentions like the four watches. Like that's, I think, like a distinctly kind of Roman division of the night into four three-hour segments. And of course it's gonna suggest to Mark's gentile audience that, and, and underscore this point, that it's not which watch, but that no watch may be presumed safe from the master's arrival. And so I think when we hear that stuff we think, "Well, this means like don't fall asleep." In other words, like there's going to be a test somewhere in your life or all of your life where you're going to be legitimately tempted to take a rest, and you can't take a rest. You gotta keep like just going thrust or no th- you, there's no other choice- Right ... but to give it your all. I think what's better here and what's in view is in all areas of life, are you awake to the reality that God has given you work to do in the spheres of influence that you have, in the particular place in which you live, among the church people whom He has given you to worship with? Are you aware that at all times you ought to be moving and working and for His glory, [00:27:00] even while you are literally sleeping in rest so that you might do those things for the next day? So I- Yeah ... I don't wanna get too hyped up on it's kind of like, again, what's the spiritual equivalent of always drinking Celsius and Red Bull and just like toughing it out- Yeah like with your eyes wide open. It's, it's way more than that.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, uh, this is gonna seem like a weird transition, but it's, it is but also isn't. Um, I, I saw an interesting video the other... I'm getting super nerdy here right now. But, um, I saw an interesting video on YouTube the other day that was talking about how strange it was that there is like a night shift on the Starship Enterprise on Star Trek Next Generation. But, but actually like- It, it demonstrated something to me that, like, even on a, you know, this is obviously a fictional television show, but, like, even on a spaceship where there is no sun, there is no actual reference- Right ... for what a day is, right? We think of a day, and, and rightfully so, it's locked into a 24-hour cycle because of the [00:28:00] way God has created the Earth to spin, and the sun, and the sunrise, sunset, et cetera. But in this fictionalized universe, in this fictionalized world, there's no sunset. There's no, uh, chronology, yet they still divide on, on this, they still divide the day into these three watches. And it's funny, 'cause they talk about how, like, well, there's, there's the day shift, there's the sort of like second shift, and there's the night shift. And they actually even, like, turn the lights down on the ship to simulate a day-night cycle. And, and what it got me thinking about, and I think in the parable, obviously, like, it's the four watches of the night. Um, I play a lot of Dungeons & Dragons, and, like, when you're gonna do what's called a long rest, you have to determine who's gonna set a watch. If you don't set a proper watch, then the dungeon master may make it so monsters show up and you don't get your long rest. This idea that- Even resting is an appropriate and necessary execution of- Right ... the task to be watchful. That's right. Like, I think that's important. If you are, um, i- if you think of like, uh, Lord of the [00:29:00] Rings, right? And they set a watch. Uh, the responsibility of the people who aren't on watch is to make every, every use of that time to sleep so that if something happens, they're alert. And then when also when it's time for them to take watch, they're able to be watchful. And, uh, the other thing I wanna, wanna just comment really quickly on, because I, I, I didn't do a lot of prep for this episode. Big shocker. We don't prep a lot for these episodes. And this is another Markan parable that I'm not super familiar with.  Church Alertness and Power Tony Arsenal: But one of the things that as we're talking through it I'm, I'm becoming more convinced of, is this really is about not just any one individual being alert, although there is implications for us. It's really about the whole church being alert.  Jesse Schwamb: That's  Tony Arsenal: right. Like, the church is the, uh... I, I think it's in, I wanna say it's in Timothy, I don't know where, but the Church is the buttress and pillar of truth, right? So that's not to say we're the, we're the arbiter of truth, but I wanna read this. The... I don't know any other podcasts, although in our circles there [00:30:00] probably are other podcasts that you might hear someone reading out of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church book of Church Order, Form of Government, chapter three, verse, uh, passage one here. Uh, but this is, this is, as I said, uh, BCO chapter three, Form of Government. Uh, and this is, the chapter is titled The Nature and Exercise of Church Power. And when I was coming into the OPC, I don't think I was surprised, uh, in terms of like I thought the theology was different. I was pleasantly surprised to see that this was articulated and how clearly it was articulated. So I'm just gonna read the whole section here. It says, "The power which Christ has committed to His Church is not vested in special officers alone, but in the whole body. All believers are endued with the Spirit & called of Christ to join in the worship, edification, and the witness of the Church which grows as the body of Christ, fitly framed and knit together through, uh, that which every joint supplies according to the working and due measure of each part." Sidebar commentary. The BCO doesn't [00:31:00] have proof text, but if they did, they would just be citing to Ephesians 5 here. Um, back to what the text says. "The power of believers in their general office includes the right to acknowledge and desire the exercise of the gifts and calling of the special officers. The regular exercise of oversight in a particular congregation is discharged by those who have been called to such work by the vote of the people." So just to summarize that, officers, at least in the OPC Um, ruling elders are nominated and voted into, into office and essentially, uh, given their powers, their official powers, their official responsibilities, not by the presbytery, uh, and not by some hierarchy, but by the congregation. They call from within.  Church Authority From Congregation Tony Arsenal: But that, that means that the power of the ruling elders, the, the authority of the ruling elders, is not derived from some hierarchy. It's derived from the [00:32:00] authority and the exercise of power of the whole church. And the other thing, I won't read this, but the other thing that I found, um, really interesting that I really like is in Presbyterianism, and, and I, I believe Presbyterianism is what the Bible teaches positively as a command. I know there are other church polities, and I know everybody is trying to figure it out, and we don't all agree. I think Presbyterianism is the right way.  Jurisdictions And Whole Church Acts Tony Arsenal: But either way, um Presbyterianism works on a s- sort of an idea of, uh, jurisdictions, right? And they're kinda concentric circles. They're not necessarily hierarchical, but it's, it's narrow jurisdictions and then broader jurisdictions. And the most narrow jurisdiction is the session of a local church over that congregation. But what's really interesting is that the, the Book of Church Order calls out that when any valid jurisdiction of the church is exercising its authority, it's not just that jurisdiction that's [00:33:00] acting. That's an act of the whole church, the entire Orthodox Presbyterian Church. So in a congregation where someone is in unrepentant sin and that, uh, session makes a decision, votes a decision to excommunicate that person, to remove them from the rolls, consider them to be an unbeliever, that's not just an act of that jurisdiction. I- i- as a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, when some church in Sacramento, California, I don't know if there's an OPC in Sacramento, I assume there probably is, but some church in Sacramento, California, the presbytery or the session excommunicates someone, I am e- I'm engaged in that act. That's an act of the whole church.  Watchfulness Beyond Personal Piety Tony Arsenal: And this, the, the only reason I go there and I bring, I kind of dive into that level of granularity is I actually think that this is kind of what this parable is teaching, is that as individuals, we need to be alert because the whole church acting is the whole church acting. So whether this takes the [00:34:00] form of me just being really un- un- like, locked into my local church and making sure that I'm active in my local church, or whether... And I think there are some of us who are called to this, um, and I think our, our podcast in some levels sort of takes this shape a little bit, are watching what other people in the church are doing and sometimes are offering corrections, right? It is not the case that an average blogger has ecclesiastical authority in the strictest sense, but when I see, or, or anyone who is sort of involved in online commentary, podcast, blogging or otherwise, I see someone in the church teaching something elsewhere and I call that out, that's me sort of fulfilling this command of Mark 13. I'm being watchful Because what that Christian says or does, if they're truly a Christian, actually does have something to do with what I believe. It actually does have something to do with me as a believer. That doesn't mean that you should get up in everybody else's business. That's not what I'm saying. Like, sometimes- Right ... the thing [00:35:00] that's going on in the church over there is just that thing that's going on over at the church there. But for example, there was a pretty high-profile, um, uh, ecclesiastical, I don't know if it was a trial, but like an ecclesiastical deposition, I guess, um, for a presbytery down in the Southwest, um, about some pretty gnarly things that were being said by an elder in the OPC church, and I wrote to that presbytery. They haven't sent it to me yet, but I wrote to that presbytery and said, "Hey, what you did at that meeting is an act of the whole church that I'm a part of. Can you send me the minutes?" And I have a right to do that, because I wanna see what's going on. I wanna understand what statements they're making on behalf of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of America. Or, I just combined like 1,000 different denominations- Yes, you did. ... into one sentence. But I, I think the point is clear, like the, the parable of the watchful doorkeeper or the porter is not about exclusively, I do think there's an element of it, but it's not about our individual piety. It's about the sort of readiness state of the entire church for [00:36:00] Christ's return, if you really boil it all down  Avoid Date Setting And Indifference Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, so we, I think before we leave verse 35, we, we are at least contractually obligated to say, though we've said it before, that there are two errors here that we should definitely seek to avoid. And because we're talking about, again, this idea that we do not know when the master of the house will come, that is the reason why we wait, and we are watchful, like you just said. But it means that the first is any kind of, like, speculative date setting, which is a fool's errand. We've talked about that at length. Yeah. The second one, again, I think we're contractually obligated to say, is a practical indifference, maybe sometimes dressed as, like, pious agnosticism, like treating the uncertainty of that hour as grounds for some kind of spiritual carelessness rather than heightened attentiveness. So I think where all this wraps up with what you said about one representing all, that, that is the church's responsibility. Yes, you're right. In Timothy we get the command that this is the center and the pillar. So I... That obviously all this coheres with just straight-up biblical [00:37:00] doctrine of assurance and perseverance, because the elect are kept by God's power through faith. So what that means is watchfulness is not some kind of, like, anxious uncertainty about final salvation, but instead it is, like, this disciplined fidelity in the means God has appointed. Ordinary Means Of Grace Jesse Schwamb: And what are those means? Like, I feel like this is where everybody just shouts back, "Ordinary means." You know what I mean? When I say means- ... you say ordinary. Means- Or I should, I should say it the other way around. Ordinary. But this idea that, like, what are those things God has put into our lives, has appointed for us to use, has commanded us to up- obtain for ourselves by his power? It's prayer, it's the word, it's the sacraments. It's a mutual watchfulness within that visible church like you were just describing, and it's precisely because the timing of Christ's return has been sovereignly withheld from creaturely knowledge. So there's actually a lot in this that I think assuages that, that really sensitive Christian conscience, which is like, "Well, are you telling me I have to do more?" That's not what we're saying at all. We're, we're saying, "Do the things which God has empowered you to do." And guess what? Those things [00:38:00] are just very chill, very ordinary things that take on extraordinary influence and power in our lives by the work of the Holy Spirit. So again, it's like this whole thing of saying, like, when we work, we work. When we pray, God works. It's the same kind of thing here. There is work to be done. There is a watchfulness to undertake in all the activities of our lives. But it is not like whatever the, again, the equivalent, like, is of, like, spiritual, I don't know, like shots of espresso and, and Celsius to just try to, like, by all accounts, by your own power, somehow just not sleep. Uh- Yeah ... not sleeping is not what this text is about. It's actually about being aware, worshiping in awareness around all the things, and then devoting ourselves to all the stuff that we keep talking about, to praying, to studies in the scripture, to having family devotions and time of worship, to baptism, and to the Lord's Supper. That's what watchfulness is all about.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah. [00:39:00] Yeah, and I, I think, um, you know, this is again I do think this parable has more to do with the idea of kinda getting after it. I, I think that's how we usually talk about it, like getting after holiness. Yeah, it is. Um, I, I think this parable has more to do with that than some of the other parables with similar language that we've talked about. But I, I also think, um, as Reformed Christians, uh, we get the, we get the cart before the horse if we think that even though that's what it's about, that that somehow places the onus on us to do the good works, right? Right. The good works are prepared for us in advance that we might walk in them. And, uh, i- it's not even right to say, like, our responsibility is to walk in them. That's not even quite right theologically. Like, we are going to walk in them. Like, that's, that's the thing, is the doorkeeper is given this charge. He's commanded to stay awake, and in good Augustinian fashion, it's really more along the [00:40:00] lines es- of the doorkeeper is made to stay awake because he's been commanded to. Jesse Schwamb: Yes, that's right.  Tony Arsenal: And I think that's, that's really key.  Fruit Checking And Assurance Tony Arsenal: And yes, there is some- something to say for, uh, fruit checking. And I, I know that there are probably some in our audience that just, like, threw up in their mouth a little bit when I said that. Um, but the, the reality is, a lack of fruit, uh, i- in our life, and by fruit I'm talking about good works. Primarily I'm talking about the ordinary means of grace, like you said. A, a person who is refusing to avail themselves of the ordinary means of grace, right? Right on. Regular church attendance, prayer- Right ... the sacraments, Bible reading, um, sitting under the preaching of the Word, fellowship with other believers. Um, I would even say to some extent regular s- regular financial support of the Church. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and I... There, there are times where that may not be, uh, the most feasible thing, and so that's a decision between you and the Holy Spirit and for you to discuss with your pastor. [00:41:00] But, but the reality is God has given us these ordinary means of grace as a gift and as a way to nourish and support us. When we refuse to take part in those, and I use the word refuse intentionally, when a person refuses to attend church, for the most part most of us who have had a season where we don't, don't attend church, and I, I had a long season when I was in college where I just didn't attend church. There was no good reason for it. I just didn't do it. And if I'm being really honest, it was 'cause at that time in my life I had some sinful patterns that I didn't wanna face up to, right? That's usually what it boils down to.  Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: Um, but for those of us who d- who refuse to, uh, take part and to avail ourselves of the ordinary means of grace, that should really cause us to question our salvation. Not because the ordinary means of grace cause our salvation, but because the ordinary means of grace are exactly as they're called. Exactly. They're the ordinary means by which God delivers His grace to us. So if we're refusing to receive God's grace, it means we're refusing to receive God's grace. And the only people ultimately who are not forgiven are [00:42:00] those who receive to ref- you know, refuse to receive God's grace. So I think this, this passage has more to do with us in an indi- sort of on the individual level, us being actively engaged and partaking in the, uh, the administration of the covenant of grace, to use a more technical term, right? The administration of the covenant of the grace are the visible means of grace. If we refuse to be baptized, if we refuse to partake of the Lord's supper, if we refuse to attend church and to sit under the preaching of the word and to pray, then we are, we are turning down God's offer of grace. That's right. We're taking the gift that He desires to give us, and we're saying, "No thank you." Well, when we phrase it that way, it's a flat rejection of God's grace that we're engaged in.  Church Mission And Readiness Tony Arsenal: But on a, on a sort of like big picture scale I think it has to do also along with these lines that I'm talking about of the Church itself being ready. Well, how does the Church prepare itself for Christ's [00:43:00] return? Again, the ordinary means of grace, right? We prepare ourselves by teaching and ministering, right? C- I think it's Colossians 1:28. If I was on Reformed Forum, I'd have this memorized 'cause it's their, like, theme verse. But, like, equipping every person for the ministry of Christ, equipping every person, making sure every person is, uh, mature and ready. Like, all of those things come together as the primary mission of the Church. And I know this is gonna trigger some people, but, like, evangelism is not the primary mission of the Church. The primary mission of the Church is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, which takes place mostly on the Lord's day. I think all of that, the personal dimension, the corporate dimension, all of that coalesces in this command to be watchful, to stay awake, to be on guard, to s- be about the task, to be in charge of the commands you've been given. All of those different concepts come together in what Christ is talking about here in verse 37 when He says, "I say to you, I say to all, [00:44:00] stay awake." Like- Right ... that's what we're talking about. So it's not as simple as personal piety. It's probably not as complicated as some sort of, like, I don't know, least of these, feed-the-poor schema that happens sometimes. All of that happens. It really is just about the Church being the Church and doing the things the Church does, both on the individual level, but also on the corporate level. Perseverance And Scriptural Warnings Jesse Schwamb: And that's why, as loved ones of God, then we can come to verse 36, which is the full warning, and we actually read it as a great comfort. So it says, "Lest he come suddenly and find you asleep." And after all we're talking about here, the way I read this warning against complacency is entirely consistent with, instead of being contradictory to, the doctrine of perseverance of the saints. Because perseverance is not fatalism, and I'm just... I'm still learning this, loved ones. Like, and even here, what I marvel at is the warnings of scripture are themselves among the ordinary means by which God preserves His people. So I go back to the Westminster [00:45:00] Confession of Faith chapter 17, which notes that, "Believers may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, fall into grievous sins, and so incur God's displeasure, even while never finally falling from grace." So that sobering possibility of, of quote-unquote being found asleep I think functions pastorally not to threaten the loss of the election, of the elect, but to press home I think, like, the seriousness of watchfulness as the fruit and evidence of genuine faith, which is what you're talking about. That, that's kind of like the Reformed theological jam in a sense, and that's why, where I think we'd anchor like James 2, Hebrews 3 and 4. There is, like, a call of the necessity of perseverance in the means as the mark of the true as opposed to be merely, of course, like some kind of profession of discipleship. The visible church, and we talked about this too, mixed as it is, is here warned that the formal membership in the household is no substitute for actual wakefulness. And so I hope we see that warning as not something [00:46:00] that's like, "Well, you gotta, you gotta check yourself every day 'cause if you just step out of line once, if you fall asleep at any little thing, then it just goes to show you that you weren't serious enough." Instead, it's like you said, Tony, like even the warning itself is proof positive that God will save, that He arrests, that He holds everything firm and secure, and that even the setting of the table or the preparing of the good works and then the way in which you walk in them, we might ask, how is it that you are even walking? Yeah. And so even this is all an act of God, whether we speak about that, uh, that justification, that initial positional sanctification, and even the progressive frame as well is all f- happens here because God is in fact doing that good work. So it's a good warning because it reminds us that what's, I think, the particular and special dispensation of the Christian is that in this falling asleep, as the Westminster Confession says, it may mean that we fall even into grievous sins. We're incurring God's displeasure. We're not disrupting our [00:47:00] identity in Christ, but we are disrupting our harmony with Christ. Yes. And so we always want to seek and to live in that kind of beautiful harmony where there is, I think, obedience for a word. There is a special fellowship that comes from being close to God in this way. We should always strive after that and want that very thing, but at no point does the Christian who even falls into grievous sins, as the Confession reminds us, fall outside of God's mercy and grace. Merely we fall outside of God's pleasure, and we r- we're finally returned to grace by His power in our lives, whi- which He Himself affects so that even in our fall, even in our death every day, there is a little bit of resurrection that restores us. Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  Rapture Ready Misreadings Tony Arsenal: Yeah, another way, um, another way to put this, um, and I, I don't mean to trugger, trig- to trigger, uh, our dispensationalist friends and family who are listening to the show, um, there are I will speak from my own experience coming out of a dispensationalist framework when I was in [00:48:00] high school and early college. Um, there was a lot of focus on being, quote, "Rapture ready." And I, I think sometimes we can read parables like this to think that stay awake means be Rapture ready. And what that means is, like, in some forms of dispensationalism, and I think probably many forms of dispensationalism, there's this idea that, like, if you're not right with God in, in this sense you're talking about, if, like, you're in disharmony with God when the Rapture comes, you may ultimately be saved, but you're not gonna be saved by the Rapture, which means you're gonna have to deal with the tribulation, and that's no good. So, like, if your piety's not on point when the Rapture happens, all your friends are gonna be taken away, and you're gonna be left behind, right? I don't think it's too much of a characteristic- a caricature to talk about Left Behind when there's an entire dispensational book series about this, right? Right. The whole concept behind the Left Behind novel is that it's populated by people who thought they were Christians who weren't. Uh, and some of [00:49:00] those are because they had a false profession of faith. Some of them were just back- what, what a lot of people would just call backslidden Baptists or backslidden Christians who, who had a genuine profession of faith but just weren't living in a holy fashion. I think we can sometimes read this, whether we're dispensationalists or not, we can read these kinds of parables in light of Rapture readiness. I think it's, it's both more assuring and also infinitely more severe than that. Right. It's not about Rapture ready. It's about whether you're saved or not. Right. Whether you are in the kingdom of God, whether you are among the household of believers. All of the people in view in this parable are members of the master's household, right? Uh, they're all his servants. So it's not as though there are some who are, um, outside of his family that are be given, being given a command to be watchful. There's also no consequence implied for the doorkeeper if somehow he's not watchful. It's more along the lines of if you're in the faith, if you are the doorkeeper or a [00:50:00] doorkeeper in the g- in the king's house, then you ought to be watchful because that's what you do. And so there's no, like, implied consequence. There's no assumption that the doorkeeper somehow won't be watchful. So I think if there's any sort of, like, gut check, status check that needs to happen, it's really more along the lines of are we in the Lord's household or are we not? That's right. That's right. And I think that's, that's what you're getting at. If we're in the Lord's household, if we're members of his house, if we're servants in his kingdom, then we will be awake when the time comes. We will be awake when he returns.  Rooster Crow And Passion Echoes Tony Arsenal: And the other thing, and I'll just throw this out there maybe as a tease. I don't, I don't think there's enough here for us to come back to it next week, uh, although I've been wrong before, and sometimes Jesse and I have conversations right after that turn into the next episode. I think it's really interesting- I don't know if you ran into this when you were reading it, but- Yeah ... verse 35: "Therefore stay awake, for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening or at [00:51:00] midnight or when the rooster crows," that's a very interesting phrase to me- It is, yeah ... "or in the morning." It's just another chapter or two when- Yeah ... we see the disciples fall asleep in the Garden of Gethsemane, right? Gethsemane. Um, the disciples fall asleep. We see language of the watches, right? The, the hours that Christ is alive and dies on the cross are associated with the watches. Right. And then of course the rooster crowing. And it's a very well-known, um, uh, I, I don't wanna call it a fact 'cause that might be too strong, but it's a pretty accepted, uh, theory in, in the sort of, uh, academic understanding of the, the authors of the Gospels that Mark, uh, Mark actually represents Peter's testimony. That the sort of a- apostolic imprimatur of the Gospel of Mark is actually that M- John Mark, probably while he was ministering with Peter, was being told these, this account, and he's collecting Peter's, Peter's [00:52:00] statements on the events of the Gospel It is very interesting to me that this phrase about the rooster crowing associated with being watchful and ready in the service of the master- Yep would appear particularly in the gospel that's asso- associated with Peter. Right. And I'll throw that out there just as maybe food for a discussion- ... in our Telegram chat, but I do think e- even that is sort of for our benefit, right? Right. We're not talking about, uh, this isn't a parable about what happens when you betray Jesus and hang yourself with a rope, right? This isn't, this isn't Judas who never was a believer. If we're drawing this peril- parallel, this is a parable about Peter, or related to Peter's experience, uh, who was restored, who ultimately had a moment of sleepiness, I guess, both physically and, you know, spiritually here. Had a moment of, of sleepiness, but ultimately was awake when the master came. That's right. And I think, like, there's something there for us to tease out, and, and again, [00:53:00] maybe we'll leave that for the Telegram chat. Maybe that's just for your own personal study. I've done zero commentary work, so maybe this is a connection that I feel- ... is super novel, but actually everyone else makes. Um, but I just thought it was really interesting how closely that language, that sequence of the watchfulness, the watch, sleepiness, awakefulness, and the rooster crows, how closely that lines up to the events that w- would be if we were going through Mark sequentially- Yep ... we would be encountering in just a couple chapters, right? In just chapter 15. They're coming up. Um, we're talking about this exact thing. So it's very interesting to me, is it... The Holy Spirit is amazing in how He has put together this. Yes. Even if, even if that is a super tenuous connection, it's still a connection. And- Agreed ... I have a tough time thinking anyone who's familiar with the, the passion accounts would read this and not go, "Woo." That's a lot of language from the passion account. It's a lot of- Yes ... language related to what happened in just a few chapters.  Jesse Schwamb: Yes. I'm with you. Like we said, there's so much that's within these couple of verses, and you'd have to think if you were reading this with brand-new eyes, [00:54:00] with eyes that never seen this text before, and you were just going straight through, you'd come in just a few short chapters to that whole narrative in Gethsemane and be like, "What? Did he, didn't he just, didn't this guy Jesus just say to them- Like be watchful, stay awake. And here they're... Isn't that ironic? Here they are in the garden, and he said- Yeah ... to them again, "Stay awake." They fall asleep. He comes back, he's like, "Could you not watch for one hour?" Yeah. He's using all the same language that he just talked before. So I think we shouldn't discount that and just, just throw that away.  Husband Analogy For Vigilance Jesse Schwamb: I think if I had to put all this together in, like, my own strain, strange metaphor based on a lot of what we said, it would be something like this. Let's say that, uh... Well, I- Let's not say I am, so let's just say I am. I am a husband. And so one way you could think about, well, what it means to be watchful as a husband could be that I put this pressure on myself to make sure that any point in time, if somebody asks if I'm married or if I need to show that I'm married or I need to prove that I'm married, I need to have my marriage certificate at the ready. And so, like, the way I do that, the way I can interpret that watchfulness is I [00:55:00] keep it in the outside pocket. I always keep it with me. Has to be at arm's length. It has to be ready to whip it out and show it to somebody so that I can prove, yes, look, I am in fact, uh, married to Jen. Here it is on paper, and I am a husband. The other way I might think about this, which I think is the more proper way of what it means to be watchful, sober-minded, to be aware of what it means to be a husband, is in all of my duties of life, to always be remembering and to acknowledge and to represent and to honor my wife in how I talk and how I interact with others. Now, some of that might be in the very watchful way we say to avoid temptations because marriage necessarily commands it. But it's, it's more than that, isn't it? It's thinking of my wife throughout the day. It's interacting with people- Yes ... in such a way that at any given point in time, it becomes obvious, though not obnoxious, that I am in this committed relationship of which I have great identity and harmony. And if I think we look at it that way, then the ordinary ways of showing that I'm a husband are the ordinary ways of doing life in relationship, even when [00:56:00] that person is not with you. And so- Yes ... that's so much of what we have here, that I have still responsibility as a husband that I ought to honor and obligate myself to and to my wife, that are necessary to obey and to, you know, fall into rhythm with, even when she is not present with me. And so that, of course, is where this whole thing breaks down to a great degree. However, I think the beauty of this whole thing here is that the warning is actually for us loved ones. Like, I mean that literally. Not just for us as in it's directed at you, but that it's for you because it empowers you to do the ordinary things which God has given to you so you can be freed up to understand that He makes no mistakes. He didn't mean to make us all missionaries somewhere in some far off place, or even next door. But that He has given us everything that you have, every vocational skill, every talent, ability, and sphere of influence, so they might use it for His glory. And in that way, that is what it means to be vigilant and to stay awake. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I think, um, I think that's right on, and I think a good place for us to wrap this up is, [00:57:00] um, I, I really like your analogy, and I, I think- A person who is watchful about being a husband, uh, is not the person who carries their m- marriage license around in their pocket, right?  Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: Uh, that would be weird to do, and I guess maybe that would be one way to be watchful, but it just wouldn't, like, it just wouldn't be- Missing the point um, it's missing the point, yeah. A- and, and like, um, a, a better way would be like, you know, um, occasionally you'll see, like, funny videos online of, like, somebody who's at an event and, like, you know, it's a husband and, like, a pretty girl is flirting with him, and they just kinda like point to their wedding ring. Right. And it's just the end, it's just the end of the discussion, right? It's this idea that, like, no matter where I go, no matter what I do, no matter who I'm with or not with, I am s- I am always going to be a husband. That's a fundamental part of my identity, and that does and should shape every single thing and everything I do, whether it's conscious or not. Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: And I think, I think as a [00:58:00] husband, there are points in the day where I realize there are decisions that I'm making and thoughts that I'm having that are entirely related to the fact that I'm a husband or a father or, you know, whatever, whatever fundamental identity element there is, right?  Identity Drives Obedience Tony Arsenal: Um, the fact that I'm a Christian is a even more foundational identity marker of who I am. And so when I go into a patient encounter at the hospital, or when I pull up to a red light, or when I order a sandwich at McDonald's and they get it wrong, like, all of these different scenarios, I bring with me the fact that I am a Christian, the fact that I am a servant of Christ, that I am a doorkeeper in the house of the living God, right? I need to be watchful both in my personal piety in those moments, but also just in general I need to be watchful. This is just, um- The doorkeeper is not, uh... Let me put it [00:59:00] this way. The doorkeeper doesn't do what he does to become the doorkeeper in this parable, right? Right. He's already the doorkeeper, and the fact that he's the doorkeeper explains why he's given certain responsibilities and certain commands. That's the way it is for us as Christians. We're expected to follow the moral law. We're expected to represent God's name, which is really just an extension of the third commandment. But we're expected to do those things not because those things make us Christians or make us members of God's household, but because we already are. And I think ultimately that's kind of where this parable lands, is we're, we're watchful because of who we are and what we are in God's kingdom, not because it gives us a status, but because of the status we already have.  Jesse Schwamb: Amen. That's right on.  Community And Support The Show Jesse Schwamb: Well, there's all these ordinary means of grace which we should encourage one another in, to participate in them, to love and cherish them, and to understand that those are, in fact, the good works that God has set apart for us to walk in. And then there's the ordinary things that you can do to [01:00:00] support the podcast, which are of a much lesser nature. But they're still, believe it or not, just ordinary. So here's a couple of things you can do. One is, Tony already referenced it. It was the Ts, and that is we use this app called Telegram. You can download it. You can go to any browser and just type in t.me\reformedbrotherhood, and that link will take you to a bunch of brothers and sisters who are hanging out, listening to the podcast, and doing life together from all over the world. Just come hang out. It's a lot of fun. The second thing you can do is just head on over to reformedbrotherhood.com, and what you'll find there is 500 of the best episodes that have been ever recorded into the internet just living there. Most  Tony Arsenal: definitive episodes.  Jesse Schwamb: Yes, exactly. Just living there. They're waiting for you. And then what you're gonna find as you listen to them is you'll notice that there's, like, strangely no interruption for a ZipRecruiter ad. There's no, like, Purple Mattress- ... testimony in the middle of that. And you'll think to yourself, "How is it possible that over 500 hours of this could be put on the internet without a paywall?[01:01:00] No Jericho walls that I have to tumble down. How is that possible?" Loved ones, it's because so many have decided that after their other responsibilities have been fulfilled financially, they want to give just a little bit to make sure that all the hosting, posting, and editing fees are covered so that this can just keep going out. If you'd like to bless somebody else in that way, and really that's not a gift to us so much as it is to, I think, others. There are Christians all over the globe that we know stumble upon the podcast for whatever reason. And because of how good God is, because of the very ordinary things that we're talking about here, just the simple act of praising God in voice and in conversation can somehow edify or encourage somebody, particularly in a very rough time or place. Uh, we've heard that testimony over and over again, and I think- Yeah ... Tony, we're always so humbled by that kind of thing. Um, that happens because people give. So you can go to patreon.com/reformedbrotherhood and, uh, just a little bit there, one time or a reoccurring gift of any amount, big or small, makes sure that this kind of thing [01:02:00] just keeps going. It's a lot of fun. We love to do it, and we hope that we'll continue to be able to do it, uh, for as long as the Lord tarries or until He calls Tony and I into His glory.  Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I hope we are still doing this podcast when the Lord comes back or when we die, because I love doing it, and I don't wanna stop. And, uh, that was a weird transition- ... and I'm just gonna slide it into gear. Uh, anyway, yeah, I'm... I don't know what I just did. I- It was beautiful ... it's like I forgot how to podcast tonight, Jesse.  Final Thanks And Next Series Tony Arsenal: I'm not sure exactly what that means, but, uh, Jesse, I appreciate this conversation. I've loved the work we're doing- Me too on the parables. I love, um, I love all of the Bible. Um, I think I've come to sort of love the Gospels more through these conversations. Mm. So I'm excited. You know, we're, we're going to be coming up to the end of the parable series in somewhat short order, although short order on this podcast is usually a matter of months and, and [01:03:00] sometimes years. But, um, I'm excited to continue into the parables of Luke. Um, again, there are some that are unique to Luke that I think are really interesting and have a little bit of a different flavor. Yes, for  Jesse Schwamb: sure.  Tony Arsenal: So please stick with us. Please come back next week. Um, and you know, if, if this is something that's been edifying to you, beyond donating on Patreon or joining our Telegram chat, we would also really just love it if you would just share this episode with someone that you think it would benefit. Um, we do this because we love the Lord Jesus and because we're passionate about His Word- Mm ... and we're passionate about theology. And we don't spend a dime on advertising, so your Patreon dollars aren't going to that. Um, uh, but what we do want you to do is we want the, we want people to find the podcast because someone else thinks it's beneficial to them, and it starts a conversation. So if this episode or any of the episodes has been productive and fruitful for you, we would love it if you would just take a minute, do it right through your phone, share it [01:04:00] to somebody that you know that you think would benefit from it or who would enjoy it. And you know, I think that's really all we have tonight, Jesse, so I think until next time, honor everyone. Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood.
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  Mark 4:26–29: The Reformed Case for Divine Sovereignty in Evangelism 07.08.2026 1h 2min

  In their 500th episode, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb celebrate a decade of The Reformed Brotherhood by diving into one of Scripture's most overlooked parables — the Parable of the Growing Seed in Mark 4:26–29. Exclusive to Mark's Gospel, this four-verse passage packs a theological punch that is, as Tony and Jesse argue, unmistakably Reformed in its emphasis. The man scatters seed, goes about his life, and the earth produces — by itself — without his understanding or intervention. From this, the hosts draw out rich implications for evangelism, sanctification, ecclesiology, and eschatology. They argue that the kingdom of God advances by divine power alone, hidden from human sight, moving toward a certain consummation. The episode pairs deep theological reflection with the hosts' characteristic warmth, humor, and 10 years' worth of shared history. Key Takeaways Monergism is embedded in the parable itself. The growth of the seed is entirely God's doing. The man scatters and rests; the earth produces by itself — a picture of divine sovereignty that requires no human management or comprehension. The evangelist's only obligation is to scatter. This parable relieves believers of the anxious burden of producing spiritual fruit. Faithfulness in proclamation is the call; growth belongs to God. Sanctification is gradual, hidden, and God's work. The progression — blade, ear, full grain — mirrors the believer's sanctification, which proceeds by degrees imperceptible to the individual yet certain in God's design. The Kingdom of God is not dependent on any individual. Whether it's a ministry leader, a financial contributor, or a worship musician, no single human agent is load-bearing for the advance of God's kingdom. Primary and secondary causation work together without contradiction. God uses means — the farmer still sows, the earth still functions — but the means are instrumental, not efficient causes. God's providence encompasses and exceeds them. The harvest belongs to God, not the evangelist. Just as the man did not direct the growth, he is not the agent ultimately putting in the sickle. The consummation of the kingdom occurs in God's time and by God's initiative. This parable resists reduction. It cannot be flattened into a simple evangelism lesson or a single eschatological statement. It holds together personal sanctification, corporate ecclesiology, and cosmic eschatology within four verses. Key Concepts The Earth Produces By Itself: Monergism in the Parable The theological center of this parable is the Greek word automate — the earth produces "by itself," without external compulsion or human assistance. Tony and Jesse argue this is not incidental language but the thesis of the entire passage. The farmer is genuinely active — he scatters the seed — but his agency recedes almost immediately from view. He doesn't monitor the soil, apply nutrients, or trace the growth. He simply lives his life. This picture coheres precisely with the Reformed doctrine of monergism: that in regeneration and kingdom growth alike, the decisive cause lies entirely outside human capacity. As Jesse puts it, the mechanism of growth "belongs to God alone." The farmer's ignorance is not a failure — it is the point. We are not meant to understand the how; we are meant to trust the Who. Scatter, Then Rest: A Theology of Evangelism Without Anxiety One of the episode's most practically rich applications concerns the posture believers are called to adopt in evangelism. Tony observes that this parable is rarely preached as an encouragement to evangelists, yet that is precisely what it is. The sower's only active verb is scattering. After that, he sleeps and rises — the rhythms of ordinary life — while God does the work that no human strategy, method, or persistence can accomplish. This directly addresses what Tony calls the "anxiety around trying to ensure some sort of production." The Reformed vision of evangelism is not passive indifference but liberated faithfulness: scatter the seed of the gospel without bearing the impossible weight of manufactured outcomes. As Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 3:6–7, "Neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth." Blade, Then Ear, Then Grain: The Patience of Providence The threefold progression Jesus describes — blade, then ear, then full grain — is not decorative agricultural detail. It is a theological statement about the character of God's work in the world and in the soul. Growth is gradual, ordered, and unhurried. Jesse draws the direct application to sanctification: the believer cannot fully trace the work of grace in his own heart, yet it is real and it is God's doing. This ought to produce, as Jesse summarizes, "patient confidence rather than human striving or anxiety." The church, too, matures through stages. Neither impatience with slowness nor despair at imperceptibility is warranted — both misread the nature of divine providence. God is not behind schedule. He is, as always, working through means, in His time, toward a consummation He has already appointed. Memorable Quotes The earth produces by itself — we might even say the kingdom of God produces by itself. It's not dependent on anything except God's sovereign will and his sovereignty to execute all that he desires. - Tony Arsenal The mechanism of growth is strangely hidden from the human agent, and it belongs to God alone. - Jesse Schwamb The kingdom of God advances by God's own hidden power toward a certain appointed consummation — and this ought to produce patient confidence rather than human striving or anxiety. - Jesse Schwamb Full Transcript Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to the 10th Pentacost episode of the [00:01:00] Reformed Brotherhood. It's number 500. I'm Jesse Tony Arsenal: and I'm Tony, and this is the podcast that's been going for 10 years. Hey, brother.  Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. A happy 500th episode to you.  Tony Arsenal: I know, man. It's kinda crazy. It's kinda crazy, and we're not gonna do anything special 'cause we don't do that, but it is crazy that this is the 500th episode. That's a lot of podcasting.  Jesse Schwamb: It's absolutely wild.  Podcast Memories And Mishaps Jesse Schwamb: And as with any milestone, as I was thinking about this one occurring, it did draw my mind to all the crazy things that have happened on this podcast, some known, some unknown. Of course, there is the very infamous time that I spilled a whole bottle of kombucha on the desk while we were recording, but everybody knows about that. But I was, I was also thinking about the, the lesser-known ones, like the time you and I sat in the downstairs church, like so close to each other on the same side of the table- Yeah ... to record a episode, or the time [00:02:00] that a tow truck showed up while we were recording and I had to go run out and direct the tow truck 'cause I'd called it for the car. Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  Jesse Schwamb: And you paused the episode so that we could go do that, or the time that we had our favorite Lutherans on the podcast in what I think was, like, the hottest environment, and I just remember the sweat trickling down Chad Bird's beard. Like, like, like air being- Like the oil gloss ... mixed with oil. Yeah. It was so hot. So those are the ones that come to my mind. I don't know if there are any ones that come to you. We- we've had some great episodes, and by the way, they all live out for free in the world on reformedbrotherhood.com. So don't take our word for it. You can go all the way back to the beginning if you really want to, and you can hear this incredible journey that God has had us on these some 10 years. So I'm curious, like, do any episodes, topics, conversations, weird things come to your mind after all this time?  Tony Arsenal: Uh, the one I remember is when we recorded with Dad and we were waiting for the snow, the [00:03:00]snowplow- ... and we had to, like, wrap the episode up real quick because the snowplow was there and we had to go move cars. That's right. So there's been a fair amount of episodes where it's like something has interrupted us and we need to just get it over with real quick. That's right. Um, hopefully the listener doesn't hear that too much.  Patreon Support Check In Tony Arsenal: The other thing I was thinking about, you know, just as we're kinda thinking about the back catalog, we're not great at this. Uh, we tend to do our, what, what's they call the call to action. The experts call it the call to action. We do it at the very end of our podcast episodes, which is the worst place to do it. Uh, but we're gonna try to land it in the beginning here. So we, we've been supported by a number of, of people, uh, for basically the entire podcast. I don't remember exactly how early on it was that we started doing Patreon, but it's, it's been a long time. And what I noticed the other day, I went in to, to check on a couple things and make sure everything was working the way it's supposed to. There was some, like, account merge I had to do, and I've noticed that several people who've been supporting us, um, pretty much since the beginning- have their accounts listed in a declined status. [00:04:00] And what that means is that their, probably their credit card that they use, uh, has expired, and so now they're not, no longer supporting the show even though they think they are. So if you are a person who believes you're supporting the show, particularly if you've been supporting the show for a long time, and you wanna continue to support the show, uh, we would really appreciate if you took a minute to go into your Patreon account, double-check that the, you know, that you've been, um, contributing for the last couple months. Uh, double-check that the credit card you have on file is not, uh, expired or suspended or anything like that. Um, again, if you've made a decision that it's time to stop, uh, stop the show, or if this is the point where you realize, "I don't care enough to re-support to the show," um, that's fine. We love you. We've appreciated your support. We hope you keep listening. Uh, but if you do wanna continue to contribute, please do check that. And if you've never taken a chance to think through whether or not you want to support the show, uh, Jesse and I are so thankful for all the support we have.  Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  Tony Arsenal: Uh, but things are getting more expensive, and, um, you know, that's, that's [00:05:00] just a reality for all of us, and that includes things like podcasting hosting fees. Um, the cost of our, our editing software that we use has gone up. That's a subscription. Uh, the cost of hosting space has gone up. Um, all of that, uh, all of that has gone up, and so even though we've had steady supporters, it's kinda like we have lost supporters, um, financially because the money doesn't go quite as far. So if you've ever thought, "Maybe I should, uh, maybe I should contribute to the podcast," please do think about it. Even if just, uh, half of our audience went in and contributed $1 a month, um, that would be a substantial amount. That would really help us to keep the podcast going. And there's actually a number of projects and things Jesse have I, and I have wanted to do, um, that we would love to be able to, you know, to take a step on. Uh, we just don't have funding to do it, uh- Right ... because the funding we have is enough to keep the podcast going but not enough to stretch to something else. So I don't wanna, like, preload that too much, 'cause who knows if it's gonna happen, but there's some things that we wanna do [00:06:00] that would involve a little bit of upfront capital that we would need- Right to get some contrib- contributions on. So please do consider that. We appreciate you so much if you've been a supporter. We appreciate you so much if you've even considered it. Uh, and we appreciate you so much just for listening, uh, especially- Yes ... if you've been with us, you know, this is episode 500. That's a lot of podcasting- Yeah, it is ... directly in your ear hole. So thank you so much for that.  Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, we're so grateful.  Why We Keep Doing This Jesse Schwamb: It's fun just to think how many episodes we recorded, but also how many interesting conversations and topics, all the inside jokes. It really is a community. That's in part why we started this, is to sit down together and to bring other brothers and sisters into the fray, as it were, or maybe to bring us into your fray a little bit and to encourage and edify the church, the brothers and sisters, the saints around the world. And it is an around the world kinda podcast, which is remarkable too. So- Yes ... we're just gonna keep being here. As long as the Lord tarries and He allows us to do this, we'll just keep doing it. And again, we've recorded in closets, in cars on the way to things. We've done it at [00:07:00] the beach, and we've done it in cold environs, and we've done it in hot environs. And you're right, you reminded me of that time where we were desperately waiting as we were getting snowed in for the plow to come. And then it was all hands on deck, and we just dropped the recording equipment and said, "We gotta get out of here." And more often than not, the p- joy of this podcast is it just kinda finds its way into our normal rhythm of life. But it- Yeah ... comes out of our life, and out of a life that's been transformed by Christ. And so that's really what we come back to.  Mark Only Parable Preview Jesse Schwamb: In fact, that's the whole thing that we're in right now. We're going through all these parables. And this episode, we can't stop, won't stop. We're gonna continue to hit you with the content that we love, which is talking about Jesus. And so we're in one of the few... Well, it's a Markan parable that only appears in Mark. That's why I called it Markan, I guess. So extra bonus points to you, that's both extra and bonus, if you know which one it is before I say it. But there's a lot for us to talk about- ... because we're getting into this really, really short little story, but it's really chock-full, of course, as Jesus likes to do with all [00:08:00] kinds of spiritual truth. It's about a farmer chucking a seed on the ground, and then he goes about his business. He eats, he sleeps, he binge-watches the Jane equivalent of Netflix. He sleeps again, he wakes up. And while he does this, the seed is doing entirely its own thing without his help or understanding. He didn't make it grow. He can't explain how it grows. He just shows up at the end with a sickle to collect what God has already finished. Man, if there isn't a Reformed theological parable, I don't know what one is. Yeah. So we're gonna get to all of that on this 500th episode. I mean, it's something to be saying that even the US is only 250 years old, and- we've already recorded twice as many podcasts as there are years of experience in the US. But besides all of that, it wouldn't be- It's like- ... Reformed Brotherhood-  Tony Arsenal: I don't know if you've seen this. That reminds me of those things online where it's like, like, "Elon Musk is a billi- is a trillionaire. That means he could give every person on earth $1 billion- Oh, yeah and still would be a multi-billionaire." And you're like, "That's, that's not mathematically true." 'Cause when [00:09:00]you said that, I was like, "You mean the podcast is older than the country?"  Jesse Schwamb: Oh, math. I have a feeling we're gonna come back to that. Oh, math.  Tony Arsenal: Oh, math.  Affirm Or Deny Segment Jesse Schwamb: Now, of course, if you listen for any length of time, you know it wouldn't be an episode if we didn't have a time of affirming with or denying against. Of course, that is that time where we pick something that we like, we think everybody should be a part of, that we wanna recommend, and we affirm with it. Or on the opposite, instead we say, "We deny against this thing because it's just no good." So Tony, on this 500th episode, I'm just gonna keep saying it over and over again, so lest the listeners forget, what are you affirming with or denying against? Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  Scammer Payback Recommendation Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming, um, a little YouTube channel that I found. Uh, it takes a little bit of setup to explain it, but the, the channel is called Scammer Payback. Ooh. Um, and it's, it's a... I think most people have probably seen, like, the Gene Fieith- Gene Veith, um, like, where he, he gets a, some sort of scammer on the phone, and he sorta just, like, [00:10:00] trolls them and makes, kinda makes them sound dumb and, you know, pretends to play along just to see how long he can keep them on the phone. Those are really funny. These are funny, but they're on a whole different level of seriousness, which is a weird sentence. Um, basically what this is is a group of professional hackers, um, and there's, this is a serious kinda sting operation they have going. They don't use their real names on the channel. Um, there's one, there's one, um, where they interview, like, a social, um, a social engineer whose job is to... Her- she is a person who basically, uh, does social hacking, and she helps companies who, who their security people think, like, their executives are, um, susceptible to social engineering, social hacking. She'll actually call and, like, mess around with the CEOs and socially hack them. Um, they interviewed her, and the first thing she said when she sat down was the person she was talking to's first name, and the guy was just stunned. He's like, "I- we- we've never used my first name on the channel before." So they're very serious, and what they do is they identify [00:11:00] a scam or a g- usually a group of scammers, and they'll actually hack into and infiltrate the computer systems that they're using. And so they show you everything that they're doing. Um, they're, they're explaining the scam and how it's run. Um, and a lot of times they're actually actively intervening in, uh, in a scam, trying to stop a scam that's in progress because somebody is about to lose a lot of money. I mean, I think one of the things that's important about this is our audience, you know, mostly, mostly guys probably, like, age, I don't know, late 20s, early 30s, maybe early 40s, we kind of grew up and lived, lived in a world most of our adult lives or all of our adult lives where, like, fishing schemes and other kinds of, like, um, data s- data theft, like, that was just in the air. It was just normal. So we're... It's not like we're immune to it, but we're used to it, and we're ready for it, and we're looking for it. That means that most of us have parents that are in a generation who are particularly susceptible to this. [00:12:00] So I think it would be worth, worth people's time to take a look at this, uh, just as a educational piece, and then, yes, share it with your family members who are in this era. People get taken for a ton of money. Yeah. The reason that these older generation sort of bu- builder Boomer generations are targeted is not just because they're somewhat soft targets, but they also have the money. Um, most of, most of the wealth in our country is possessed by people in that generation. It's just an economic fact in a lot of places and a lot of areas, and so that's why they're targeted. So take a little bit of time, watch the show. It's... And it's entertaining. It's really well produced. It's funny. These are non-Christians, you know, who are, are being non-Christian, so there's a fair amount of salty language, especially when they're interacting directly with the scammers that they absolutely hate. Um, but it's, it's worth watching. And, and it... I think it'll... I think it's entertaining. Most of the time it's like a 15-minute video, so it's not too much of your time. Pop that on two times [00:13:00] speed on YouTube and, and you're all set.  Jesse Schwamb: And when you say salty you're not talking about Salty the Singing Songbook, right? Tony Arsenal: Correct. Yeah. Not P-S-A-L-T-Y. S-A-L-T-Y.  Jesse Schwamb: Just in case. I wouldn't want any of the loved ones to go and just be waiting for Salty to show up, like, in the mid- Which would be kind of epic in the midst of this, like, scamming shutdown, the sting operation. Like, Salty s- pops up and starts singing about restorative justice and- Yeah what it means that God restores all things. I mean, that would have a good place in this, but I just want that just to be clear. We don't, we don't want anybody to, to at us on that.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah, for sure. Well, Jesse, what are you affirming or denying tonight?  Jesse Loves Algebra Jesse Schwamb: I'm going to return to that beautiful intro you gave about mathematics and the whole Elon Musk thing. And so my affirmation is simply, like, just do... Just enjoy all the math you can. Use all the math that you know. So my wife and I were watching some kind of program on YouTube, and it was a program in which there are a couple [00:14:00]people competing in this kind of escape room situation, and as escape rooms are want to do, there came some kind of small math problem. And it goes something like this, is the best I can remember it. It was what number between one and nine when it is tripled and five is added to it is the same as that number being doubled and having one added to it? Now, as soon as that problem was read, we were watching intently, and I turned to my wife and I said, "Why do they need to say it's between, like, one and nine?" And she goes, "Well, how else would they know what the number was?" And I was like, "Well, like, this is a beautiful little algebra thing, like se- series of equations. Like, you have two equations here." And she's like... Just gave me a blank look. So I was like, "Oh, man." So she's like, "Okay. Do it then. Do it." So I was like, "Give me a piece of paper." So I, I was just like, this is gonna be such a beautiful thing. So I was like, "All this is, is, like, it's basically 3x minus five equals 2x plus one. You're solving for whatever this missing number is, and they've given you this beautiful setup, [00:15:00] which you rarely get in real life, but this beautiful setup is a system of equations. We have two things you know are gonna turn out to be the same. They've just been said in different ways, and that allows you enough space to figure out how to solve for them using a little bit of algebra." So I realized then this is why they said between one and nine, because the contestants then proceeded just to iteratively pick numbers until they found the answer, which is not a bad way. Like, that's a way to use, like, all the math you have. Certainly, that's a way. But I showed her how it was like, this is the answer, six, and you don't even need to know where to start because you don't need to start anywhere. You can actually figure this out. Still not really impressed. And then she said something to me that just, like, kind of rocked my world. I said, like, "Well, I'm sure this is familiar to, with, to you." And she's like, "Oh, yeah. Like, I learned algebra." And she goes, "Yeah, I, I know algebra. I just don't do it anymore. I just don't use it anymore." And I was like What, what I heard was, like, basically her saying to me, "I used to brush my teeth, but I just don't do it [00:16:00] anymore." 'Cause I was like, "This is such a beautiful thing." So then I got it in my head, well, well here's the problem. It's just a matter of seeing the results. So I was like, "Well, here's the amazing thing is yes, these are abstract concepts. Yes, it's like each of those is a function. It's, it's a representation of what he just said in the problem. But," and this is my grave mistake, Tony. But I was like, "Really, Descartes showed us that we can think about these not as abstractions, but we can plot them geometrically as lines on a Cartesian plane." And so I was like, "Really we can show that these are two lines and they have a relationship together." And then I was like, "Guess where they intersect? Guess where they intersect?" And she's like, "I w- that's impossible to even know. I have no idea where they intersect." I was like, "No, no. Just, just based on what we're saying, the beauty of this is they have a relationship. They're gonna come together at some point, like you and I in life. They're gonna, they're gonna come together. Guess where that would be?" And she's like, "That would be impossible to know." And I was like, "It's not, actually." So I showed her that, you know, left and right, up and down, X and Y, however you wanna speak [00:17:00] about it, those two lines are gonna intersect, at least on the X. The X spot is gonna be the number six. It's the same thing. Still nothing. So after all of that, I just appreciate my wife is such a brilliant lady, that she just doesn't need algebra. She goes through life just, like, crushing problems without... Like, because she'd like to do it, I think, just the, the more challenging, difficult, iterative way. And, uh, she doesn't use algebra anymore. Just no need for it. So in many ways I respect that. In other ways, again, the affirmation is like, use all the math you have available to you because it's a beautiful thing. I think basically at the end of that I ended up in, like, a very supreme place of doxology, and my wife was like, "Can we just go back to watching TV now?" So but I, I have to say, like, and I, I know you, you share my appreciation for math and stuff like this. Like, it's not even just puzzles. It's just the beauty that, like, we can do this, and that there's such a created order, like a supremely created order, that these rules of ma- mathematics aren't just impounded. They're like the fabric in which God has, [00:18:00] has basically woven all of reality such that we can do this kind of thing, and that even a simple problem in escape room can lead us to appreciate how intensely ordered and beautiful the world is, that we can go after knowledge and solve for explicit things that seem abstract beyond our comprehension and reason to begin with, but have been brought to a place we might understand them. That is, like, an insanely glorious thing to me. So algebra is great, loved ones. I've recommended before, but the side affirmation is go to Khan Academy if you wanna brush up on your algebra skills. I think algebra is, like, some of the most beautiful and intensely practical math ever. I love calculus, but calculus you don't get a lot of, like, use. You can use algebra to solve all kinds of things, whether it's like tips or... Like, it's gonna save you so much time. If you're ever in escape room, I'm just telling you, do not do this iteratively. Just get the, your system of equations down, and you will be, like, tearing out of that room, and then you'll look like a hero. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  Math In Everyday Life Tony Arsenal: I mean, I think, like, even the f- even the, the... How do I wanna say this delicately? Uh, [00:19:00] even the idea that we, quote, "don't use algebra" means people don't actually understand that we're using algebra all the  Jesse Schwamb: time.  Tony Arsenal: Exactly. Right. Like, I could buy I don't use calculus or I don't use trigonometry- Right or even I don't use geometry. Um, but to say I don't use algebra, like just basic. I mean, I know like basic equations are, I guess, technically arithmetic, but like how many times does someone have to, have to go, "All right, the tip, the, the bill is X number of dollars. The bill is-" Right ..."$100, and I wanna give a 15% tip, so what's the outcome?" Like, that's an algebraic equation, right? That's right. Um, or a more, I think a more common one would be like, "All right, the bill is this amount. I want my, uh, my final amount that I give billed to me to be an even number."  Jesse Schwamb: Right. " Tony Arsenal: And I also want to give at least 15%, 20%, whatever percent, so what's the number I need to use in order to get to a bill that is, or a [00:20:00] tip that is both 15% or higher and results..." Like, all of those things are algebraic equations.  Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  Tony Arsenal: So I think, yeah. I mean, even like, "I need to get to work by such and such a time. What time do I need to leave?" Right. "I know it takes-" Exactly. "... a certain amount of time." Right. So I think we, we all use algebra a lot more than we, we probably realize, and I think you're right. Like, when people say, "Well, I don't use my math anymore," what they're saying is like, "I don't use, I don't use the stuff that I had to show my work on anymore." Right. "I don't use the stuff that I have to do on paper anymore." But, um, it's funny, we had a, a conversation, by the way, Reformed Tele- Reformed Brotherhood Telegram chat is a thing. Uh, we had a conversation in the Reformed Brotherhood Telegram chat a little while ago. One of our members was trying to figure out some sort of, like- And it was a problem having to do with like a, an air conditioning throttle or whatever it's called. Some sort of like programming in an air conditioner. And we went through it, we figured out that one of the like relatively complex parts of the equation that he was trying to figure out actually no matter what values you [00:21:00] put in, uh, equated to one. And then the other one was like it was ti- and then it was times one. So it was like whatever you put in ended up to that times one was the rest of the equation. It was like a huge, or like a relatively large equation that resolved down to one. So it was like you're trying to figure out all this complicated math and really like that entire, uh, that entire complicated equation was doing nothing in the rest of the equation. Nice. It was doing absolutely nothing. Um, so we were able to sort of like figure out, all right, well now all we need to do is figure out what, what this relationship does. Right. Um, and even something like in that particular situation, there were some values that the equation couldn't possibly balance. Which again, you could plot that on a graph and see like there's a spot... I don't, I'm, I'm making this up, but I think this is probably not wrong. There's a spot where it's like this is a parabolic equation, and so at some point the parable, or the par- parable, I didn't even mean to do that. There we go. At some point the [00:22:00] parabola goes back up, and so like there is no point- Right ... when it reaches this number. So values that would be in that, in that zone or in that range- Right ... they, they don't work in the equation. So yeah, I think math, uh, algebra is, uh, you know, basic arithmetic obviously is, is relatively straightforward. Algebra's probably the most simple, uh, form of math that your average person uses on a regular basis.  Jesse Schwamb: For sure.  Trigonometry And Design Tony Arsenal: But it's funny, I remember the first time, um, the very first time that I realized trigonometry was not just some abstract thing that we would never use. And it's so funny, 'cause it's like the nerdiest, the nerdiest example. I was playing a tabletop RPG with my friends, we were in high school, and we were, we were learning trigonometry at the time. I was playing a tabletop RPG, and we were trying to figure out- Um, it was a, it was like a futuristic tabletop RPG, so we were using like, like laser guns or something like that that have a certain range. And we were trying to figure out if the thing that was flying in the air from us was within range or not.  Jesse Schwamb: Nice.  Tony Arsenal: And what we realized [00:23:00] is that's just a quadratic equation, right? Right, it is. I just need to calculate. I know how far away it is from me in a straight line, I know how high in the air it is, so I need to just- Right now I need to... Or not, not the quadratic. That's Pythagoras' theorem, right? Yep. I need to calculate the Pythag- or the, um, the hypotenuse.  Jesse Schwamb: I'm with you. I  Tony Arsenal: knew where you were going. Yeah. So, like, I remember distinctly, I, I mean, I remember where I was sitting in my friend's basement going, "Oh, my goodness, trigonometry actually has a practical application here." Um, you know, whether that's figuring out how much rope I need to be able to, to attach to a tree and still be able... Like, all of these different things ultimately are math, and, or as the, the Brits say, are maths. And, uh, the, it, it's just a beautiful thing. And I think you're right, like, this is evidence that the universe has a structure- And a designer because- Right you can describe the universe using this- Nice ... sort of universal numerical language that, um, in, for the most part, describes everything we can [00:24:00] see. I mean, obviously, like, they're still learning things. They're still figuring things out. But what we can see with our senses, we can also describe with math on some level. Even something like the colors that we see can be reduced to a, a number, a frequency, a wavelength. So yeah, I'm with you. Use your algebra. Find ways to use it.  Jesse Schwamb: Use it. It's the... I like what you said, that we're using it. We just don't realize it. There's a spiritual lesson in there, I think, as well, that it's, it's present all around us, and it's... I like what you said. It's, like, the, the most, like, grabbable. It's the thing that's pretty easy to grasp, yet has, like, some beautiful outworkings that are super complex. All the time I love to, like, mess with people, even people who are, like, say, like, "Oh, I'm not into math." I'm like, "That's okay." Like, it's... You're, you're living in a mathematical world, and you're certainly using it, but that, that's okay.  Imaginary Numbers Wonder Jesse Schwamb: But like, sometimes I'll just say to somebody, like, "How do you know, like actually know that, like a negative number times a negative number is a positive number?" Like, who came up with that, and how do you know? And why are we just trusting him? Why can't somebody just say, "You know what? For me, it's not. I'm gonna make that a [00:25:00] negative number"? And w- the reason is because algebra provides... There's a lot of proofs, but algebra provides the most simple, beautiful proof. And then once you, once you basically contravene that law, like, everything falls apart. I- it's... And the question we should be asking is why does everything fall apart if we contravene one simple law, wh- which is two negative numbers multiplied, the product of them has to be, must be, is always a positive number. And that's, like, not even getting into, like, the more crazy things. Like, everybody should go look up, like, what imaginary numbers are. That will kind of mess with your mind, but then we found ways to use imaginary numbers, which are exactly what they sound like- Yeah ... to solve, like, incredible problems. Where does that come from? It comes from the Lord. It comes from God's, like, creative ability that He's placed in mankind to go after and to take a dominion over the knowledge and the creative order in such a complex and creative way. It mimics and mirrors the creativity of our Heavenly Father, and it is altogether beautiful. So on this- Yeah ... 500 episode that has a lot of numbers associated with it, I [00:26:00] say go love the numbers. Go enjoy them. Wherever you are in life, whatever your enjoyment of math is, big or small, go try to find some way to enjoy it today. Tony Arsenal: Can I, can I throw in a, a weird relevant sub-affirmation to your affirmation? I  Jesse Schwamb: mean, please.  Tony Arsenal: This is our show, so I'll do what I want to. You can do what you want. First, when you say we live in a mathematical world, all I could think of was some Perry song of Material Girl. Material  Jesse Schwamb: World?  Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  Odd Squad Math Tony Arsenal: I am a mathematical boy, and I live in a ma- Anyway, um, there is a show that I watch with August, my son, who is almost five. Uh, he'll be five in March. And, um, it's called Odd Squad. And what Odd Squad is, is it's a sort of a s- like a spy-themed kids show with a touch of like, uh, almost like Twilight Zone. Like, there's so- It's they manage odd. Like, they're the Odd Squad because they, they respond to odd emergencies, so it's a lot of like weird monsters and aliens and like time travel paradoxes and strange stuff. But the answer [00:27:00] to the problem is always related somehow to a math principle. So they will talk about how like multiplication is just addition like many times over.  Jesse Schwamb: Sure.  Tony Arsenal: And that's actually why multiplying a negative number times a negative number is a positive number or, you know, like, or multiplying by a negative number is a negative number, right? And that's because like really what you're doing if you multiply two, uh, two times negative three is you're subjecting, you're subtracting two from two from two, which gives you, you know- Right ... a negative number. So it's, it's not, uh, it, it's for kids, but I actually have realized that I understand math better- because of watching the show.  Jesse Schwamb: I  Tony Arsenal: love it. And it's because they break it down in, you know, the, the audience- Yes ... the target audience is a little bit older than August. I think the target audience is probably like six to seven, maybe eight years old. Um, and so they're talking about math principles geared towards those groups. But they'll talk about things like [00:28:00] using a number line to be able to understand math, and so like visualizing it. Or they'll talk about how multiplication is really just groups of things. So yeah, check it out.  Why Math Matters Tony Arsenal: And again- Algebra is probably the most, uh, easy to grab of the disciplines, but that's because that's the one we are using every day all the time. Tony Arsenal: And we don't realize it. But again, like, calculus is a beautiful, a beautiful thing. Um, and there are some amazing things that exist in the world that can really only be understood and described in a certain sense by something like calculus or trigonometry. Um, my favorite, I, I wish I had, like, kept it up, but one of my favorites is geometry 'cause I think a lot of it is, that's, like, the closest to puzzles. Yes. Um, uh, so, like, I, I used to love doing proofs and axioms and stuff. So, and then of course logic is technically related to math. It's a related discipline to math- It is ... in that it, it's, it's actually, like, the language that underlies a lot of the mathematics is [00:29:00] logical formulas. So it's all relevant. It's all beautiful. It all describes God's creation, and it all redounds to His glory.  Jesse Schwamb: You got that right.  Mark Growing Seed Jesse Schwamb: And speaking of both His creation and His glory, and Jesus teaching of both of those things, we are, as we promised, hanging out in the Book of Mark, and we've got just four sentences. And what I love about this parable that we're about to read is it fits in so perfectly with something I think you and I have been saying from the very beginning, which is it's tempting when we think about the parables to consider, like, a single element or to distill them down to, like, a single word and say, "We hear the kingdom of God is this thing, this noun, this object, this person." But instead, the case we've been making is it's actually generally a series of verbs, or in this case, it's the whole four verses that Jesus is gonna give to us here. So let me just read Mark 4:26-29. That's all it is, loved ones. And it's a good thing because we're already knee-deep into this 500th episode. So this goes by various names. I've heard it called, [00:30:00] like, the Parable of the Growing Seed, or sometimes people call it, like, the Parable of the, The Secret Seed. I'm not sure that's really secret, but I suppose the increase is secret in a way, and that's really what Jesus is communicating to us in these verses. So Mark 4:26: "And Jesus was saying, 'The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil, and he sleeps and he rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and grows, how he himself does not know. The soil produces crops by itself, first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain in the head. But when the grain is ripe, he immediately puts in the sickle because the harvest has come.'" Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, this is, um, an interesting parable, and I'll be the first to admit, like, when you said, "Well, why don't we do the king- the parable of the growth next?" I was like, "I don't actually know what Jesse's talking about." So if you're in the same boat as I am and [00:31:00] you, uh, you are like, "Wait, there's the... This is a parable? Like, this exists in the Bible?" Um, you're not alone, and I think part of the reason is that, one, it's so short, but it also sort of, like, connects into the next parable thematically. I don't know necessarily- Hmm ... about the content and the meaning, but thematically it sort of blends into the next parable, which is the parab- Mark's version of, um, of the parable of the mustard seed. So it's, it's hard to delineate unless you're really thinking about it, but I'm glad that we're talking about it because I think this is probably one of those parables that doesn't get a lot of attention because it's so short and because it is, um, it is sort of thematically in a spot where I think it does sort of, I don't know, like seep into the next- Right parable.  Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, there's a tendency because you're right, it's sandwiched between the Parable of the Sower and the Parable of the Mustard Seed, both of which we've talked about from Matthew's perspective, that it seems like maybe the theme is redundant, but [00:32:00] it is altogether different with the emphasis. Uh, there, it's true I guess that all three of these parables are addressing that same underlying question the disciples in the early church were asking, which is, if Jesus truly inaugurates the Kingdom of God, then why does it seem so impressive? Why is it so slow or hidden in contrast to all the expectations that the Jews had for what they thought would be this dramatic, immediately visible rain? And so I like that there is a lot said within four verses. And again, from our perspective, this thing seems so distinctly reformed in its under- Yeah of course the whole Bible is that way, but maybe nothing more so than this, especially because we'll get to it, but the center of this parable being, and there's various translations, that this guy doesn't even know. He doesn't understand. He's totally ignorant to what is going on, and isn't that... I, I mean, I can only speak for my own test- that's the story of my life, uh, spiritually and otherwise. That again, if you wanna talk about God doing all the verbs, I guess Mark had it first. I thought maybe I coined that, but [00:33:00] turns out that Mark, well, actually Jesus, the Son of God himself, says it best here. So let, let's get into this because the beautiful thing is you and I can handle theoretically in the time allotted here, like three or four verses. That, that's theoretically possible for us to do, but we, we're only gonna h- see how far it goes. Um-  Tony Arsenal: Yeah ...  Hidden Kingdom Growth Jesse Schwamb: I think the first thing to say here is that we get that beautiful characteristic, like formula, like the controlling paradigm. It's that Kingdom of God again. And a- as I kinda set up, it's the Kingdom of God, though, launched into a bunch of, uh, verbs. Uh, this idea of like him casting, and then him sleeping, and then him waiting, and then him getting up, and then the growth happens, and then he comes again at the end, this character, this farmer, into kind of the consummation of that kingdom. And I think there's a lot here that's maybe to explain that tension. The kingdom is real and active. It's irresistibly moving towards some kind of fixed end, but it does not appear in its final glory, and that is something you kind of get with the other two parables. [00:34:00] But here it's just like so lovely. It's right in front of you. That, that's like the whole emphasis and thrust of what Jesus seems to be saying in this. Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and I think this one's interesting because, you know, generally in the parables, at least in, in... I, I would have to do a little bit more study to know if this is, like, distinctly Markan or whatnot. But in the, the, um, Matthew's parables, um, or Christ's parables reported in Matthew, um, primarily the main figure of the parable is, uh, is generally is God or, or more specifically is often Jesus himself. Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: Right? But in this parable, it wouldn't make sense for us to say that somehow g- you know, God or Jesus scatters seed, and then He doesn't know that it sprouts. Right. Right? So, so the, the parable implies that the one scattering seed, and again, we don't wanna over-interpret parables. Generally speaking, parables are teaching kind of a principle of some sort, a comparison of some sort, not, it's not an allegory. [00:35:00] In, in most cases it's not an allegory where each element has a direct representation of some sort. But it wouldn't make sense for this to be talking about God's perspective on scattering or Christ's perspective on scattering, 'cause obviously God and Jesus, even, even if we're talking about Jesus according to His humanity, um, has some sort of awareness of the workings of the Kingdom of God that is not the ignorance that the parable here seems- Right to present of the one scattering.  Scatter Then Rest Tony Arsenal: So I, I really do think this parable has more to say to us about- Our own perspectives on evangelism and on how the Kingdom of God will propagate. And I think, um, both in terms of, like, evangelism, there's an element here, an encouraging element of, you know, all your s- your job... And what's really funny is I, I don't recall this parable being used in my experience to sort of [00:36:00] encourage people that all, your own, your job is just to scatter. You don't need to worry about the growth. Mm-hmm. There's a, there's a passage in Paul about one person scatters, one person waters, and God brings the growth that is often used to sort of say, like, it's not your responsibility to make sure that the, the, the, um, the bud is, you know, c- comes to flowering and to fruiting. It's just your job to be faithful to scatter or to water or whatever step it's on. This, I think, has even more encouragement for us in that the one who scatters, um, i- is obviously God, but there's also this element that, like, we're scattering. The one scattering is not omniscient. But the one scattering, uh, he doesn't even know how or why or even that, I think, that the, um, that the f- the growth is occurring, and that's the most- Right remarkable part of this. Like, we're not talking about a normal farmer who is aware of how growth [00:37:00] occurs, is aware of the timing. He's constantly checking. He's making sure that he's checking the soil, that he's applying manure, that he's watering the crops. This is literally like some dude who just throws seed out, and then, then just goes back to his daily business of sleeping and rising and going about his day. And then all of the sudden, the earth, quote, "by itself produces." And I think that's the real key here is- There's something about the Kingdom of God and the seed that the Kingdom of God scatters. It's almost like the Kingdom of God itself is the one scattering here.  Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: Yep. The Kingdom of God and the seed that is scattered in and as a result of the Kingdom of God, it produces the outcome autonomously. It doesn't require us to input into it, at least in the context of this parable. Now, again, the Parable of the Talents would be very clear to us that we can't just rest on our loyals- laurels. God expects us to work and to be fruitful for the kingdom. [00:38:00] But there is this element here of, like, you are not the one responsible for the production of the seed and the fruiting and flowering of the seed. In fact, you're not even responsible for being aware that it occurs or how it occurs. Your only responsibility, the only active verb in this whole thing is... Well, there's a couple. The, the, the main active verb is the scattering. The other active verb is the sleeping. So, like- Right ... we, we scatter, and then we, we rest and we trust that God is going to do His work. Jesse Schwamb: Right. Even on the face, there's so much in this that does seem mysterious. Like, if you just take this parable and think about the act of agriculture, and I sometimes think about this because I do love plants, and we have a bunch of plants in our house, and I'm horrible at trying to get them to grow. And I think about what still a mystery it is. With all we know about science, just that you can still plant something, a seed, and water it, and the sugars will break down, and the seed will take root, and that something will grow and flower, and you think, "Oh, who is doing that?" And, and w- [00:39:00] I think we'll get into this, the first and second principles, first and second causes here, which are, I think, certainly something that Christ intends for us to consider here. But there is this idea that the man's action is simple and passive relative to what follows. He, like you said, just scatters the seed. And he's a real agent, but as the parable unfolds, it's almost like his entire agency recedes entirely from view. And that's what kind of sets for me, like this whole trajectory of the parable. It's that the mechanism of growth is strangely hidden from the human agent, and it belongs to God alone. And so you already stole it from me, but I'm gonna read 1 Corinthians 3:6-7, which is, coheres directly with what's happening, I think, in this parable. And this reads, or Paul writes, "I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. Neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth." And so there is like an extension, I think, of that application inward though as well. Kind of like when you were speaking about that, what occurred to me is that we see in the [00:40:00] farmer's like day and night unawareness, this picture, I think, of this often gradual, imperceptible work of grace in our own hearts, in every believer's heart. Like that, that sanctification process, it proceeds by these degrees, and the Christian cannot fully trace even in himself, yet it is definitely real, and it's definitely God's doing. And then I think as well we might pull out a thread of this, you know, ecclesiological truth. You know, the church's growth is God's work, not the fruit of human strategy. And then by application even further into that, it's based upon a soteriological one, which is like the ordo salutis, which is maybe half of every episode we've recorded talks about the ordo salutis in some ways. That too is unfolding by this divine power, and it's hidden from the creature's full comprehension, and that's consistent in this parable and in all of Scripture, that this regeneration precedes and produces faith rather than the reverse. Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and I, I think too there's also an element in this passage, you know, when you think about... Uh, [00:41:00] I'm not a farmer, uh, and I, I don't know that many farmers, but when you think about how f- how modern farming works, it's very different than, uh, ancient farming, right? Historically, ancient farming was, uh, I think probably a lot of just trusting the world to do what the world does and, and trusting God to do what, what God does. A- and I think that's probably why a lot of like- When you look at, um, pagan religion, the, the fertility cults and the sort of goddesses and gods of the harvest were all related because there was this mystery to it. And so the reason that there's so much, uh, cultic worship around fertility and harvest is because it is so mysterious, and you just kinda have to, like, trust that it's gonna happen. Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: Right? You sow your seed in, you sow the seed of your field in, you know, the fall, uh, and, or in the, the, you know, the summer, and then you wait several [00:42:00] months and just hope that the crop comes in. And our modern agricultural world is not all that different. We have better tools and we can measure things that, like the soil, the nutrients in the soil. We can, you know, we can do all sorts of different imaging to see of what's happening underground. But at the end of the day, even with all of the advances we have, the farmer still can't make the crop come in.  Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  Tony Arsenal: Either the crop comes in or it doesn't. And I, I think there's this element of trust here that I think is really useful for us. And again, I think you're right. This is like, uh, it feels almost wrong to say it this way, but it's like this is a super distinctively Reformed parable. Like, of all, all of the parables in the, the Gospels, this one is like, on the face of it, a Calvinist parable. Yeah. Exactly. Like, it's like God just grows the kingdom- Yes and nobody does anything about it.  Jesse Schwamb: Amen.  Tony Arsenal: And I don't need to go into more details than that. But there is this element for us, I think, as, uh, as those [00:43:00] who want to share the gospel, there can be an anxiety around trying to ensure some sort of production, some sort of produce, uh, and productivity from that, that is just not healthy. And I think, you know, we, we have a responsibility as Christians, um, to be faithful and diligent in doing what God has called us to do. But if, if we read this parable as the one who scatters is sort of like the evangelist, then the only responsibility we have as evangelists, and all of us are evangelists, right, lowercase E evangelists, um, all of us, the only responsibility we have is to scatter the seed of the gospel. Jesse Schwamb: That's  Tony Arsenal: right. And we're not responsible for the growth. We're not responsible for even really understanding how growth happens, uh, or even, even doing much about it until it's time to harvest that growth. And I think that's, we need to talk about what that means too, because again, like [00:44:00] this is a parable that I think is maybe not as, as clean and clear as some of the, uh, Methanian parables where it really does seem like there's a pretty clear symbolic representation on some things. This one feels like it's maybe a little muddier in that, um, the main character and the role of the s- the one who's scattering seems to sort of almost shift throughout the parable, which is crazy to say because it's only like four verses long.  Tony Arsenal: But it, it does seem like at some points the scatterer is God, at other points it can't be God, and then it seems like, well, who's harvesting? It's not really us, so it's gotta be God. So I think it's, it's important for us to hold this parable as more of a general principle about the Kingdom of God than it is about any sort of like really direct one-to-one teaching on the, on the Kingdom of God.  Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. That's a interesting distinction.  Providence And Causes Jesse Schwamb: Here's what I would say about that, I think, is let's equate this to, like, coffee. You like a good cup of coffee. I do. I like a good cup of coffee. I think if we were to take, let's [00:45:00] say, the Parable of the Prodigal, that would be for me like a big Dunkin' Donuts coffee. Like, it's delicious, mild-bodied, maybe a little bit light. This parable is like two shots of espresso- Yeah ... 'cause there's a lot in there, and we could probably take a lot of time even t- speaking about, like you're saying, the more shadowy eschatological truths that appear in verse 29 because those, this idea of, like, a sickle in the harvest, I mean, that's imagery drawn from Old Testament eschatological judgment texts. So that could be pretty heavy in its own right. I think what's critical, before we get to that, is to, like, tease out something you said, which is there is a lot in here about this doctrine of providence, like, this spontaneous self-originating action apart from external human causation. And we've talked a lot, like, we distinguish between primary and second causation. You know, the Earth is genuinely or generally has second- secondary causes, like an ordinary means through which God's ordinary providence operates, but the ultimate primary [00:46:00] cause of growth is God himself. And so here we see that. Like, there's no exclusion of the farmer's agency as an explanatory cause. The soil does what it does because God has ordained the natural order to function in this way. That is his prerogative. And so that threefold progression then, blade, ear, full grain, which by the way I had to look up because my understanding of, like, all kinds of different types of grains is very thin and I'm out of my depth here. But- ... I'm led to believe That that development is gradual, and of course it's ordered, but it's not instantaneous. And so the application here, I think, has traditionally been applied in this corporate individual spiritual growth we're talking about. Like, the church advances through stages of maturity, and so does the individual believer's sanctification, without warranting either impatience or despair at the process's slowness. This is how God works. He does it in His gracious and kind way. And again, He's using this, all of this agriculture to illustrate that purpose. So there's, like, this buildup, I think, [00:47:00] in verse 28 about the incredible providence of God, both like corporatively, personally, in His world, how He is the primary cause, but also uses secondary causes, not in a disjointed or divorced way, but in a way that encapsulates and magnifies His glory. And that is then what leads to or will lead to the reemergence in verse 29 of this whole deal of, like, well, if farmer comes back in, and now he returns, but only at the point of consummation, not at the point of growth.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  Harvest And Timing Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and, you know, we won't go into all of the ways that this ties into the other parables, but it's worth, uh, it's worth mentioning that in, in both, uh, the parable of the mustard seed, which follows this, and then also the parable of the sort of sower or the seeds, um, there is this element of this, the one who is sowing seeds is not fully cognizant or aware or, and, and absolutely not in [00:48:00] control of the outcome, right? In the parable of the sower, um, he scatters the seed promiscuously, right? And the- Right ... the outcome depends on what kind of ground the seed falls on. And in the parable of the mustard seed, it, it's more of a, like, idea that the, uh, the sower sows a seed that seems so small, but it, the growth of the seed is explosive and expansive because of the nature of the seed, not because of the skill of the sower. Jesse Schwamb: That's  Tony Arsenal: right. Right? In this instance, um- The only thing, again, the only thing that initially the sower is responsible for is the sowing of the seed, the scattering of the seed. But what I also think is interesting is then there is a point where the one who scatters the seed is now responsible to act once he's observed the seed coming to fruition, right? Now, now what exactly that means and how exactly that applies, I think there's a lot of different things we could talk about. Um, but again, [00:49:00] this is a parable that we have to be careful not to, uh, not to restrict just sort of crassly to, like, evangelism. Right. Exactly. Or, or even just to sort of, like, the eschatological harvest. Right. That's what's tricky about this parable, I think, that bears ... And I don't think we'll do it, we'll do it necessarily on the show. It'd be worth having more conversations about. But for our own personal study, it bears deeper reflection because this parable cannot be simply reduced to an eschatology parable about what God does in the end. Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: And it can't be simply reduced to a parable about evangelism because strictly speaking, like, we're not really the ones that harvest when the harvest comes in, right? I've, I have heard this parable, um, preached, you know, like I said, although I acknowledge that I, um, like forgot that it existed. I have heard this parable preached as though, like, "Well, our responsibility is to scatter seed. We're not responsible for [00:50:00] making it grow or making it take root. But when we see that it's taking root, we're responsible for jumping in and harvesting at the right time." I don't think we should draw that conclusion here. Although the, the harvester does see that the ear is ripe, that the grain is ripe, and he harvests it, it would be a weird sort of like shift in the parable to go from the person who scattered seed isn't responsible for its growth, doesn't even know that the growth is happening, but is actually responsible for knowing exactly when to harvest the grain. Right. So we have to think about this again in gen- in terms of general principles of how the Kingdom of God functions. And w- how it functions is it's mysterious, it is, uh, consistent, it happens on a, a scale and on a predictable outcome that we as individuals don't understand and don't have visibility to, and the harvest will occur in its [00:51:00] time, and it will h- occur consistently and reliably. So again, like this is... I hope that maybe like the one or two non-Reformed people that listen to the show aren't terribly offended at this, but like this just is Reformed theology, right? There, there is a seed that is sown, God is responsible for the growth, and the harvest necessarily will help it happen when it's supposed to happen, right? When the r- when the fruit is ripe, it will be harvested. That doesn't mean I'm responsible as the one who sows seed or scatters or m- witnesses to people from making sure that the, quote, "sickle is put in at the right time," or anything like that.  Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: The fact is that the sickle will always come in at the right time. The person who has the final kinda piece of the puzzle in evangelism, I think that's how it often happens. Someone hears the gospel repeatedly from multiple places. They have contacts and relationships that tie into how they [00:52:00]ultimately come to accept the gospel and trust Christ. But ultimately it's the Holy Spirit who brings all that into some sort of coherent, um, execution and application of redemption That will happen in God's time. So I wanna be careful not to, like, put too much responsibility on us. Right. And again, this is just a parable that I think bears a lot more reflection, that I think because, um, I think Mark in general, because it's so short, uh, gets, it gets overlooked by Christians. I think we would all do well to spend a little bit more time in Mark. But especially some of these really short pericopes. I think we just read through it, and it's like we read a chapter of Mark, like Mark 4 comes up in our Bible reading plan. Right. And if we're reading the Bible in a year, like, Mark 4 is one of three or four chapters that we read, and this is four verses of that. Right. We just read over it quick and we c- we just, we don't appropriate any of it.  Jesse Schwamb: Right. It sounds like he's just reiterating a point or he's recapitulating something that he's already said or is about to say, and you're like, "Okay, get on with it." But I'm with [00:53:00] you. This parable, like all of them, is for us. It's for our joy. It's for our satisfaction and our comfort. And I think from this, there is, like, a single controlling point that's emerging from our conversation, which is the Kingdom of God advances by God's own hidden power toward a certain appointed consummation. And this ought to produce, like, patient confidence rather than human striving or a- anxiety. In order to give us a sense of calm, a reminder that God's providence is real in all areas of life. Remarkably, we've gotten this far in the conversation, and neither of us has just, has used the M word, which just came to me, and I think we're contractually obligated to say it as a Reformed podcast, and that is this is a prime example of monergism and the sovereignty of grace. And as in regeneration, the decisive cause of kingdom growth lies outside human capacity and comprehension. I think sometimes the latter part of that seems wrong to us. It makes us fearful because we don't understand it. But the former part should make us feel very happy and [00:54:00] relieved, that the capacity belongs to God and God alone. That doesn't depend on me or you or anybody else that we know. And this parable, I think, is often been paired with John's image of the wind blowing where it wishes as this picture of the Holy Spirit's sovereign, untraceable operation, which is altogether glorious. And so we have that then, God doing all these things in the first and secondary causes, paired alongside of, and this is what makes it all the more glorious, this ordinary means of grace. God doesn't bypass the means. The man still sows. The Earth still produces according to its created nature.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  Jesse Schwamb: But we're insisting that here, what's illustrated for us, is the means are instrumental, not efficient causes. And what that does for all of us as loved ones under Christ is it safeguards against, as you were saying, both some kind of hyper-spiritual, like, quietism. I don't know. Like, why, why preach if God does all, all of it? And equally against a pragmatic kind of [00:55:00] activism which says, "Well, faithful technique is gonna guarantee the proper outcome here." And so instead what we get is God in his providence bringing in an inaugurated eschatology, that it is here, it is already, and yet not yet, but in his time, according to his perfection, and according to the work that he's doing at all times, in all ways, the kingdom is moving forward, both like writ large, but also, like, for you and me on a Tuesday. Yeah. Or on the Lord's day. Like, it, it is all God's work, and what a beautiful thing that emerges from this, that we see his kingdom advancing in our own lives, in the world, and in the entire universe.  Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  Kingdom Not Us Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and I think maybe to sort of cap this out, one, one more observation of the text here. We, and, and you and I have done it in this show, in this episode, and I think it's fine for us to talk about this sort of thinking about the seed that is scattered in relation to kind of like the individual, uh, ordo [00:56:00] salutis of, of individual people who come to faith. But the parable itself, sort of properly speaking, is not talking about, um, individual salvation.  Jesse Schwamb: True.  Tony Arsenal: The kingdom of God itself is what's in view here as, as the fruit that is produced, right? And I think where this maybe is the most encouraging to us is I think sometimes we feel as though the, the success of the kingdom of God is somehow related to our ability to move it forward, and that can be as grandiose as thinking that, you know, you are the y- you know, you're the one who's gonna have the insight that's gonna somehow revitalize the church. You're the next Martin Luther- Right ... or the next John Calvin, um, who John, you know, John Calvin and Martin Luther both would've told you they're not even the next Martin Luther or John Calvin. But all of that [00:57:00] aside, it can actually take a much more subtle form of thinking, like, "If I don't do this thing for my own local church, that our local church will fail," right? Maybe you think like, "Well, if I don't take care of the worship music, then we're not gonna have worship music and the church is gonna fall apart." Or- Right ... thinking that, like, "Well, my financial contribution is, is so important that if I don't make my financial contribution, the church is going to fail." That is just not, not generally speaking, just pragmatically is generally not true. Uh, an organization that rests on any one individual is doomed to fail anyways. So that's just pragmatically doesn't work. But even more so, the Kingdom of God as a whole and as a concept is something that God moves forward in mysterious ways, and it will necessarily come to fruition because the, quote, "Earth produces by [00:58:00] itself." Jesse Schwamb: Right.  Tony Arsenal: Like, I think, I think sometimes parables have, like, a phrase or a line that's almost like the thesis statement. That phrase here, "The earth produces by itself"- We might be able to even say the kingdom of God produces by itself. It's not dependent on anything except God's sovereign will and his sovereignty to execute all that he desires. That's right. And he desires the propagation of the kingdom, he desires the expansion of the kingdom for the glory of Christ Jesus so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers, right? That's just Romans 8. And this right here is the point of the parable, that although we are tools in the hand of the sower, we're seed that the sower scatters, there's no way for us to know how and when and exactly what happens as the kingdom of God grows. And the glory of that and the, the assurance of that and the comfort of that is that we can't be responsible for something that [00:59:00] we don't know about. And so just like the sower, the man who scatters seed in this parable, we can sleep, we can rest. We, we go to sleep at night, we rise during the day, we go about our business, and the kingdom of God grows and it, it produces and we know not how. Like, that's- Right ... that's really, like, the main punchline here. The kingdom of God produces, it grows, and we know not how, and it produces by itself. First the blade, then the ear, then the full grain in the ear, and when this is ripe, the, the Lord puts in his sickle because the harvest has come. Like, this, this is eschatology, this is evangelism, this is ecclesiology. It's all wrapped up into one parable and four verses that I forgot even existed in the Gospel of Mark. So, like, I think this bears m- we're not gonna spend more time in the, in the show on it, I don't think, although sometimes, Jessy, as we've seen, have conversations after the show-  Jesse Schwamb: Right ...  Tony Arsenal: we decide to come back to it. But, but I think this is one of those ones where, like, we really as a [01:00:00] community, as a Reformed community, should really think more carefully about this because it is so, so poignant, and, like, it's so short that I think we overlook it a lot of times.  Episode 500 Wrap Jesse Schwamb: So what have we learned on this 500th episode of The Reformed Brotherhood? Well, Mark has taught us that the kingdom of God grows by power that is genuinely at work, and yet shockingly genuinely hidden from human sight and control. That's just how it is. The sower does what is given for him to do. He scatters the seed. But that transformation of seed into blade, ear, and grain, it proceeds according to a mystery that belongs to God's providence alone. We've learned that algebra is everywhere, and we just really ought to embrace it. That's what we ought to... We should be looking for it in all of the places as the algebra itself grows into blade, ear, and then grain, and proceeds into great and glorious thing. And we've learned that, listen, you should never be giving out any of your personal information to anybody who's asking it for you online. Just [01:01:00] don't do that. These are the kinds of things that you can come to expect going forward on the 501st episode of The Reformed Brother. We're just gonna keep on doing what we're doing, and I think in the end, the most important thing we've learned is that God does all the work. He's done all the work in this podcast, and we are so grateful for all those who have come alongside of us in this journey with either your prayers, your conversation, your words, your critiques, your support financially. We're all in it together, and we've learned that we're gonna just keep doing it until the Lord stops us.  Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yeah. Amen. Well, Jesse, thank you so much for this conversation. Thanks for your partnership- Oh, thank you ... on this show and in the gospel for the last 500 episodes, 10 years. It's crazy. And until 10 more years- as we continue to do this, honor everyone.  Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood [01:02:00]
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  Oppression and God's Justice: The Prophetic Warning of James 5:1–6 31.07.2026 1h 1min

  In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal delivers a rich expository sermon on James 5:1–6, one of the most striking prophetic passages in the New Testament epistles. Drawing on the Jewish literary and cultural context of James's original audience — Jewish Christians scattered from Jerusalem by persecution — Tony unpacks why this text is not a blanket condemnation of wealth, but a devastating judgment oracle against those who hoard riches and oppress the vulnerable. Along the way, he explores the eschatological weight of accumulated wealth, the theology of God's omniscient justice, and the stunning comfort available to the suffering believer. The episode closes by returning to James's thesis: that trials of every kind, including economic oppression, can be counted as joy because of who God is and what He has done in Christ. Key Takeaways James is a deeply Jewish book written to a specific audience — Jewish Christians dispersed from Jerusalem by Saul's persecution, not a general audience of wealthy or Gentile believers. The prophetic "Come now" signals a judgment oracle, not a direct address — James is not rebuking wealthy members of his congregation, but pronouncing eschatological judgment on oppressive landowners using a technique common in Amos, Malachi, and Micah. Hoarding wealth is not morally neutral — it is self-condemning — The corroded gold and moth-eaten garments are not just symbols of decay; they serve as legal evidence against those who refused to use their wealth for God's glory and the good of others. Withholding wages from laborers constitutes a form of murder — In the ancient world, depriving workers of their wages could literally cost them their lives. James draws on Old Testament law to frame predatory economic exploitation as a capital sin. God sees and hears the cries of the oppressed — The wages of defrauded workers "cry out" to the Lord of Hosts, echoing the blood of Abel in Genesis 4. God's justice is not passive or delayed out of ignorance — it is certain and coming. Matthew 25 reframes Christian mercy as care for the body of Christ — The sheep-and-goats judgment is not a general humanitarian mandate, but a specific call to care for persecuted brothers and sisters — and to recognize that mistreating them is mistreating Christ Himself. Trials are counted as joy through the doctrine of imputation — Suffering is not stripped of its pain, but it can be moved from the loss ledger to the profit column because God uses adversity as the instrument of sanctification and glorification. Key Concepts The Prophetic Address: Who Is James Actually Talking To? One of the most common misreadings of James 5:1–6 is assuming James is directly rebuking wealthy Christians in his own congregation. Tony Arsenal corrects this by grounding the passage in its literary and historical context. James employs a well-established prophetic technique — seen in Amos, Malachi, and Micah — of addressing an absent party in order to pronounce judgment on them, while simultaneously comforting those who overhear the oracle. His audience is the dispersed, impoverished Jewish Christians who fled Jerusalem under Saul's persecution. There were almost certainly no wealthy landowners in the room. The "Come now, you rich" is a judgment declaration directed outward, designed to assure the suffering poor that God has seen their oppressor and will act. Far from being a proof-text for radical poverty, the passage is a pastoral comfort wrapped in prophetic fire. Corroded Gold as Legal Evidence Against the Soul James's claim that gold and silver have "corroded" is deliberately shocking — and theologically precise. Gold, uniquely among metals in the ancient world, does not corrode. By saying it has already corroded, James is not making a metallurgical claim but a moral and eschatological one. The accumulated, hoarded wealth of the oppressor has lost its purpose. It sits idle while workers starve, and in doing so it becomes evidence — a legal witness — against its owner in the court of divine justice. Tony draws a direct line between this image and Jesus's teaching in the Sermon on the Mount about treasures stored on earth being subject to moth and rust. Both brothers — Jesus and James — appear to be drawing on the same shared wisdom, likely rooted in the same household and the same mother's instruction. Unused wealth does not just fail to help others; it actively indicts its holder. Counting It All Joy: The Accounting Logic of Sanctification Tony closes the sermon by returning to James 1:2 — the thesis statement of the entire letter — and unpacking the word "count" as an accounting term, directly related to the doctrine of imputation. Just as righteousness is reckoned to the believer in justification, so suffering can be reckoned as joy in sanctification. This is not a call to pretend pain isn't real, or to perform contentment. It is a theological reframing: what belongs in the loss column of the ledger can, by faith, be moved to the profit side — not because the trial was pleasant, but because God is sovereign, good, and working all things toward the believer's conformity to the image of Christ. The oppressor means their wickedness for evil. God means it for glory. The supreme example is the cross itself — the only truly innocent man, suffering the worst evil ever committed, for the redemption of His people. Memorable Quotes The corrosion of that gold serves as evidence for the condemnation of those who are harming you — and the corrosion of this wealth is an indication of the corrosion of their very souls. He sees your pain. He sees your suffering. He sees your victories even when no one else is celebrating them. He sees you — and that should be a great source of comfort. Imputation is an accounting term. And when we count it all joy, we're taking what should be a red line in the loss ledger — what should be an expense — and we're able to move it to the profit. Not because it didn't hurt, and not because we wanted it to happen, but because our God is good enough to not rob us of the chance to be sanctified. Full Transcript Tony Arsenal: Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you. Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure in the last days. Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in the day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered the righteous person. He does not resist you." It's always a little, uh, strange to sort of jump into the middle of a series, and, um, you know, Wes is one of the most competent preachers that I know personally, so I trust that he has given you a good and satisfying overview. Uh, but I don't feel like I would be doing my responsibility if I didn't at least touch on a few things, uh, related to the, the intro to James that I think is relevant for this particular passage in a way that maybe is not relevant for the rest of the book. So some of this I hope is review, I, I anticipate is review, but I think it's worth, uh, touching on. James, as you know, is the, the half brother of Jesus. He was the leader of the Jerusalem church, and specifically he was sort of the figurehead of the Jewish church as a whole. Um, the Jewish church was the only church for the very early part of the church's growth. There were always, uh, Gentile believers. Even in the Old Testament, there were Gentiles who trusted in the Lord of Israel and the God of Israel. They were often called God-fearers. They rarely converted all the way to Judaism, but they were sort of seen as an attachment to the Jewish people. They didn't participate in all of the blessings of the Jewish people, but they did participate in most. They often had the same kind of protection. They were in a form of covenant with God. Um, they were able to worship and offer sacrifices. The temple itself had a whole portion of the temple dedicated called the Court of Gentiles, specifically for these Jewish worshipers. And as the church spread, primarily through persecution, which we'll touch base on here in a minute, as the church spread out from Jerusalem into Judea and Samaria, and ultimately to the ends of the earth, it took on a, an increasingly Gentile Greek flavor. As more and more primarily initially Greek converts came into the church, and then of course, as it spread to other sort of non-Hellenistic lands, other, other types of people, other nations, other people groups joined the church, the scriptures which-- the New Testament we receive primarily from Paul, at least in terms of the epistles, um, also began to take on a more Gentile flavor. Not because Paul was a Gentile, but because Paul was ministering primarily to Gentiles What we'll see here is that James is a very Jewish book. I'm sure that along the way there's been several kinds of things pointed out to you to show that, but I wanna show a couple things that not only establish James as the author, James the brother of, of Jesus, but also root the, not only the author, but the audience in a distinctly Jewish Christian, uh, context. So you don't have to turn there, I'll read this, but in Acts, uh, 15, which is the, the great Jerusalem Council, uh, we read this. It says, "With the following letter..." So the, the council meets, they make a decision about what k- what parts of the Jewish law were going to be commended to and recommended, uh, and required for the Christian believers, the Gentile Christian believers, and when they're done, they send this letter to all of, all of the churches. And it says, "With the following letter, the brothers, both apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are at, of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings." Now, I don't know about you, but I always sign my emails the same way, right? I've got, like, my work signature that I have to use, that the, the hospital makes me use with all the proper formatting and colors and fonts, but I always have the same signature. Mine is very simple. I just say, "Thanks," right? I just sign it as, "Thanks," above my signature, and I'm sure you all have that sort of characteristic way you sign a s- sign an email, or maybe it's the way you say goodbye at the end of a phone call. My father-in-law always says, "So long," which is a phrase you don't hear very often, so it's very distinct to him. We all have these little tells in our communication that sort of tip off who they're from. If you turn quickly back over to James 1, so just flip the page, uh, to the left here, he starts his letter by saying, "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the 12 tribes in the dispersion, greetings." It's the only two letters in the New Testament that we have where the author identifies himself, sends to a sort of generalized audience, and then signs it, "Greetings." Now, James, the brother of Jesus, was the leader of the Jerusalem Church. He was the leader of the Jewish ch- the Jewish Church in general, and he signed the letter coming from the Acts Council as sort of the presiding minister. If, if we were, y- you might call them, like, the moderator of your business meeting, or we would call them the moderator of our presbytery or our session in the Presbyterian context I come from. He was the one who sort of, like, presided over there, and so the letter that went out to the churches was signed in his name and written, drafted by him. So we see this characteristic way that the letter is addressed with this final word, "Greetings," which is not used frequently in the New Testament We also see when we look at the language carefully that the audience of this, uh, of this letter, it's debated and there are good arguments, but i- in my opinion, it's very clear that the audience of this letter is not Jewish Christians in general or, uh, Jews who have not yet converted. There are some people who would say that 'cause they're called the 12 tribes. But instead it is the Jewish Christians who originally dwelled in Jerusalem and were sent out into the countryside after the persecution that was started primarily by Saul. If you look at Acts, Acts 1 which is, uh, the passage where Saul begins to persecute the church or where Saul kinda comes on the scene as the persecutor of the church, there's a couple distinct, um, distinct linguistic markers we should touch base on. Starting in verse one it says, "And p- Saul approved of his execution. And there arose a day-- that day a great persecution against the church in Jerusalem. They were all scattered throughout the region of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles. Devout men buried Stephen and made a great lamentation over him. But Saul was ravaging the church and entered the house after house. He dragged off men and women and committed them to prison." When we look at this and we compare it to that, uh, again, that first verse of James where he says to the ones who are scattered, we see that there's a pretty strong linguistic parallel that tells us that the people he has in mind for this letter, the people he's addressing, are the same people who were dispersed or scattered out of Jerusalem in the persecution. When he says to the 12 tribes in the dispersion, that word dispersion is not really a translation. It's what we call a transliteration. So it's not like we've taken a word and sort of given it an English word. We've just changed the word, the letters over to English letters. In Greek, the word is diaspora, dispersion, and in, uh, Acts 1, the verb used to, to sort of describe this scattering of them is diaspero. And it is a picture of scattering seed. This is what a farmer would do. So it's not even the normal word we would use when someone is fleeing persecution. It's this idea that God has scattered Christians out into the world, in this case by persecution. He scattered them out into the world to be planted. A lot of this is where we get phrases from Tertullian about the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church. Now, why does this matter? As I mentioned, we often think in Gentile categories when we're reading the New Testament, and for good reason. One, we're all, all Gentiles, I'm presuming. I, I don't, I don't think-- I think I mentioned this last time, and no one came up and corrected me. I don't think anyone here is ethnically Jewish with ancestry that they're directly aware of, you know, where they trace their lineage directly back. Europe is a, a big amalgamation of just about everything, so most of us probably have a smattering of different ethnicities. But none of us are ethnically Jewish to the idea that we would, uh, identify as such in the same way. And even if we were, we've been raised and grown up in a Gentile context. We live in the West. We have-- We think in different categories. And what's more is most of the New Testament is written primarily to Gentiles by someone who is ministering to Gentiles. So Paul uses a fair amount of, of Hebraisms or things that are related to the Old Testament. Of course, he's explaining the Old Testament, and he makes ample reference to the Old Testament because that is the word of God, and it is profitable for our teaching, our correction, our reproof, and ultimately for our, our sanctification. But he uses metaphors and language in a way that is not common to the Israel context that Jesus and James and Peter and the other apostles were raised in. We don't have time to go there, but there's even some metaphors that Paul uses that are actually used the opposite way in, uh, in the more Hebraic Jewish, uh, epistles we have. One example that comes to mind is, um, Paul looks at the concept of milk, and that's not necessarily a good thing, right? It's not a bad thing, but it's what immature believers use, right? They can't handle the meat of the Bible. They have to be given the milk of the gospel before they can progress to the meat. In the Book of Hebrews, which I don't think was written by Paul, and in other places, Peter uses milk as a way to talk about nourishment, right? We think of the land flowing with milk and honey. Milk was not seen as some sort of substandard food that was only for babies. It was seen as, like, the richest, best thing that you could eat. We all have a linguistic environment that we grow up in. We all have a shared vernacular. You know, if I say something like, "You can't get there from here," everyone knows what that means. Obviously, you can get there from here, but you have to take this circuitous route. We know what that means. I think if we went around the room, we probably would find that there is this shared language. And then if we took individual families, we'd find that even within those families, there's further narrowing down of sort of like inside jokes and words that are used in ways that are not necessarily the same as others So when we read James, or when we read the letters of Peter or the letters of John, we should default to thinking more along the lines of comparing them to the words of Christ in the Gospel, first and foremost, and then to the Old Testament before we start to think about them necessarily comparing them to Ja-- or to Paul or to other kind of first century Hellenistic literature. That's not, of course, to say that Paul and James contradict. I'm sure that we went through a long explanation with much detail when you got to James chapter two, which is, of course, the most famous example. Paul uses the word justification or justify in a legal sense to make or to declare someone to be righteous. It's the verdict that the judge delivers, and it communicates the status. It actually performs what it says. When the judge says, "I find you not guilty," it changes your status from being potentially guilty to being cleared of all charges. Paul uses it slightly differently. He's not using it in the sense of to make someone righteous or to declare them righteous. He's using it to say they've been shown to be righteous. They've been validated. They've been vindicated. And if we get that mixed up, that's the source of all sorts of confusion. So when we come to this passage, and we'll get there, I promise, when we come to this passage, we have to understand some of the metaphors and the language that's being used draws from an existing body of shared cultural language that is foreign to us and is in some ways foreign to the rest of the New Testament, apart from what we see in the Gospels And it's important to remember, and this is why it's so key to land, that the audience of this letter is the persecuted, poor Jewish Christians who probably had a fairly comfortable life, relatively speaking, living in Jerusalem. These are city folks. These are people that live in Jerusalem or farm into the fields immediately around Jerusalem. They were established. They owned land. They probably had family that they had to leave, and now they're scattered out into the country with nothing. They're sent out into the world with no jobs, no family connections, no social welfare. Because they've left the Jewish faith, at least from the perspective of the Jews, they can't even go to their Jewish brothers and sisters and rely on the hospitality that's required in the law of Moses This is so important when we think about how James opens the letter and delivers what I think is his thesis statement. "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you face trials of every kind." Trials like not knowing where the next meal is gonna come from, not knowing where the next roof over your head is, not being sure you can feed your children. We all face real trials and tribulations in our life. Some of them are related to our faith, and some is just the fallen human condition in the fallen world we live in. But we're talking here about a totally different category of, uh, trial and persecution than most of us hopefully will ever experience That brings us to our actual passage now. James opens up this section with a linguistic marker that signifies this is a change in topic. He says, "Come now," or another way to translate it might be, "Now listen. Listen up." When my son is doing something that, uh, I need him to stop or I need to give him instructions, I hold him by his shoulders and I say, "Look at my eyes. I want your eyes right here. Look at my eyes." That's what Paul is doing. He's stopping and he's interrupting the flow of language. This shows us this is a new topic and a new audience. James is not speaking to rich Christians in his audience. First, 'cause there likely weren't any rich Christians directly in his audience. Remember, these are the, the poor Christians scattered out into the Judean countryside, into Samaria He's using a technique that's really common in the prophets. It's common in Jesus, where he's addressing the people who are not really listening as a way to establish that they will be judged, to hold them accountable, but also to comfort those who are hearing the message. This is a form of prophetic address. We see this in Amos, where he's chastising the Jewish leaders. Uh, in Malachi and Micah, this happens. Malachi is primarily, at least initially, is primarily, uh, a book that is railing against the rich leaders in Jerusalem who had oppressed their own brothers and sisters. The chances that those Jewish cr- uh, Jewish leaders were reading his prophecy or hearing his prophecy is pretty slim. So he was addressing a different group to establish the judgment that he was proclaiming on another party. Jesus does this when he says like, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees." There were probably scribes and Pharisees in the audience there, but he wasn't just talking to the people in front of them. He was pronouncing a judgment oracle, a judgment prophecy on all people who fit that category, and James is doing the same thing here James is not opposing wealth generally. Sometimes James is used as kind of a New Testament example to justify the idea that we should all be poor and wear shabby clothing and walk around barefoot and dirty all the time. Right? This is a key passage that's used, uh, in parts of the church that really emphasize sort of a poverty-based lifestyle. Think of like the wandering monks of the Middle Ages or the, the, um, sort of more radical exclusionists that exist even in our day. I remember when I was in college, I was really enamored with this figure named Shane Claiborne. Some of you have probably heard of him, and I remember I was so impressed because he, he didn't buy new shoes. He just cut new shoes out of duct tape and put them back together. Now, there's some, you know, there's some rugged, uh, rugged get-it-done-ness that, uh, I think us, uh, New Englanders can appreciate, but God does not call us to wear duct tape shoes, at least not universally. I'm not gonna comment on whether he calls Shane Claiborne to do that. I also don't think Shane Claiborne does that anymore. Um, some of us he may call to a lifestyle of poverty in association with a mission field or in association with a specific calling. He does not call us generally to be poor or to not gain wealth What he is opposing here is the refusal to use wealth appropriately for God's glory and the accumulation of wealth just for wealth's sake We'll see that as we unpack the language here a little bit. He establishes that he's not just talking about the earthly hoarding of wealth, as though somehow the very act of accumulating wealth was itself the problem. What he's doing is he's pronouncing an eschatological judgment on those who hoard wealth and use it to oppress others. We see here he says, "Come now, you rich, and weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you." Th- that word weep and howl, those are li-- those are words that are most commonly used in prophetic literature to describe the final cry of anguish. Think about the weeping and gnashing of teeth that Jesus talks about. This is the language he's using. He's talking about the final estate of those who refuse to submit their wealth to God He says, "Your riches have rotted and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have corroded, and their corrosion will be the evidence against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasures in the last days." Now, remember what we said. We, we should read this not in light of some general wisdom, although it is general wisdom that if we accumulate wealth, it tends to not actually go well for us if we're not utilizing it in God-honoring ways. But we should read this in light of the most obvious connection, his big brother, Jesus, who taught his people, "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will also be." To maybe land this linguistic, uh, this linguistic connection a little more, I don't know, vibrantly, I'm gonna speculate a little bit. So if you don't like it, then you can disregard it. This is not God's Word. This is a speculation. I can just imagine little Jesus, little nine-year-old Jesus, and probably little six or seven-year-old James and the rest of their siblings, and there's quite a few of them. And we have Joseph, uh, who maybe at this time was still living, although probably not. We know he was living until Jesus was later, you know, 12, he was still around, but we don't know exactly when he left the picture. But he was a carpenter, and he was not, probably not overly wealthy. Uh, they had had to pick up and move, you know, cross-country anyways. They-- We don't know exactly where they were from initially, but they went to Bethlehem, and then they returned to Nazareth. They probably didn't have a lot. There were a lot of mouths to feed and only one business. They didn't have a farm. They didn't own livestock that we know of. I can just imagine a time when little J- little James or one of his sisters was frustrated about the fact that they didn't have anything. And I could picture Mary getting down and going, "Do not store up treasures in, in, uh, in heaven or on Earth. It's all gonna waste away." The same way we might tell our children kind of a, a moral kind of story. Sometimes we have this picture, last time I was here I, I spoke on Philippians 2, we have this idea that Jesus was somehow like Superman, that he, he was just pretending to be a normal human most of the time. As it touches his humanity, as, as we think about Jesus as a human, he had a, his own human set of thinking faculties, his own human knowledge. He grew in wisdom and stature is what Luke teaches us. Well, where did he get some of this wisdom? There's a good reasonable argument to be made that some of the pr- more proverbial type sayings that we see in Christ, that they actually come from the wisdom of his mother and father. And a really good reason to believe that is James relies on the same exact, uh, sort of proverbial wisdom to l- land his point. He doesn't create his own metaphor, he goes back to, at the very least we can say he goes back to the words of Christ. That's a very safe position to take. But this is the shared linguistic context that they both grew up in And he says, "You've done this in the last days." Now, the, the phrase last days in the Bible, uh, in the New Testament generally refers to the time period from Christ's resurrection to his return. We, for a lot of reasons, think about it as kind of like that climactic end period in time. Depending on your, your persuasion, maybe this is when the Antichrist comes, or maybe this is before or after, or maybe during the time when the church is raptured. But in either case, we think of that sort of last period in time before Christ finally comes back. But the New Testament writers are really talking about the entire duration, from Christ's resurrection to his return is what they're referring to. But it does have in view this idea that we are in the last times. The, the final judgment is not necessarily strictly something that's out there in the future. We are living in the last days now, and so what we do and what we say and, and how we worship and if we worship is eschatology. It is the theology of the last times He also positions this as though this is a universal thing going on with those who hoard wealth. This is a very shocking image. Um, we have very good ways to preserve things in our modern world, right? We have ways to m- to make, uh, stainless steel that won't rust, or at least won't rust quickly. But most things in the ancient world, even most precious metals, corroded. Um, I remember when I was growing up, there was this project in my hometown. I lived in a, a little town called White Bear Lake in, in, um, Minnesota, although little is relative. It's pretty big compared to most of what we have out here. And I remember when I was maybe 12 or 13 years old, they had this big building project to build this brand-new, beautiful lakeside pavilion in the center of town, and it w- just gleamed in the sun. It was so gorgeous, and it was made of copper, and everybody loved it, and two years later, it was bright green. I think it's still bright green. I think they figured out it wasn't worth repairing, so they, they just, they just make sure it doesn't keep getting worse, and at some point, I'm sure they either have or will tear it down. But the one metal in the ancient world that didn't do this was gold. It's part of why gold is such a durable measurement of wealth is because it doesn't wear out. It doesn't corrode. It's very soft. It's very easy to damage it, which is why we don't build statues out of it, or we don't build, uh, buildings out of it usually, but it didn't corrode. So when James says here, "Not only your silver, which tarnishes and corrodes, but your silver and gold have corroded." Not are corroding, but have corroded. The rich hearer of this is probably, you know, sitting around like Scrooge McDuck with a pile of gold coins thinking, "Ah, it looks pretty good to me." And what James is saying is, "No, no, no. No, it's corroded. It's eating away at your heart. It's lost its value because you refuse to use it, and so it sits in a pile doing nothing for no one, except serving to further your own condemnation." This is such a crazy, shocking situation that the insanity of not using your wealth, period, the insanity of sitting on your wealth in the ancient world is going to serve as a form of evidence justifying the condemnation of these wicked fools And further, the corrosion of this wealth is an indication of the corrosion of their very souls. There's something about money. I was-- When I was here a couple times before, I preached one of the wealth passages out of Ecclesiastes, and there's something about money that has a unique way of really, really wrecking us. Either we don't have it and we want it, or we have it and we don't wanna lose it, or we have it and we don't spend it wisely. It seems like there's an infinite number of ways to screw it up. And we landed last time that the gospel is good news because with the nearly infinite ways of screwing it up, we're going to screw it up. But the one way that he talks about screwing it up here is hoarding it and sitting on it and not using it Moving on into verses four and five, James moves us now to a more sort of temporal register. He starts out by talking about what wealth is and what it's doing and how it will ultimately affect the entire life and eternity of those in his targeted audience, those he's proclaiming this prophetic, uh, judgment against. But in verse four, he moves back to the behaviors that are being, uh, being engaged in to show the state of these people's souls. He says, "Behold, the wages of the laborers you, who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in self-indulgence. You have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter." James here points at the, at the behaviors that show this hoarding behavior, and he does it for a number of reasons. One, he needs to call out sin. That's part of the role of a Christian, and especially a leader or a minister in the church, is, um, to not only call out sin in the body of, of Christ, but in a, I think a very particular way, and there's all sorts of, uh, all sorts of theological controversies flying on around about Christian nationalism and other associated things. Some of it is just the spirit of the age. Um, post-COVID, there's a, a real strong sense that our government has failed us and we need to replace it with something else. But there is a, a true way, and I, I think some of those things are a little misguided, but there's a true way that the church, particularly her leaders, should be speaking to the culture around us, and yes, even to the government, to proclaim the truth of God into a wicked and godless culture. This might take the form o- of a m- minister who goes to a town hall meeting to speak out against a gambling association that's going to be forming, or a, an elder in the church or a deacon in the church who goes to speak to, uh, to the city hall or to the state legislature about the wickedness of abortion and about what we see it does to women's lives when they are fooled into thinking that this is the right thing for them. Again, the church is not the state, and the state is not the church, and we should be very careful not to cross those lines for all sorts of reasons. But we as a culture, as a Christian culture, in the United States particularly, have lost sight of our responsibility to speak truth in all circumstances to those in power So James is doing that, of course. But even more so, this is a way that he establishes for his direct audience, for the Jewish poor Christians who have been scattered in this diaspora, in this dispersion. He looks at them in a sense and says, "I see you. I see what's happening to you." And as God's representative, as his chosen voice for this message, as his inspired author, God sees you too This goes back again, the first two chapters of James serve as kind of a thesis statement and table of contents for the whole book. We get an idea of what may have been happening, the actual, uh, acts that were being engaged in, in, in chapter two verse six, he says, "You have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong?" James has in mind here a form of predatory land purchasing, where the rich were sort of sweeping up property. They were sweeping it up, and then they were charging probably exorbitant prices to those who would lease the land to try to eke out a living. Does that sound at all like any of our current context, right? When's the last time any of us have tried to buy a house and found anything reasonable? Well, a large part of that is that there are big companies that are scooping up all the land and buying all the, the developments. Now, I'm not commenting on those particular situations. I don't know those people. I don't know their hearts, and some of those things actually are doing good things for the community. But we're familiar with this idea of someone who will purchase a resource, who will then jack the price up in order to turn a profit on it. I'm not opposed to turning a profit. Y- y- yeah, it takes money to run a business, and you have to, you have to recuperate those funds if your business is going to survive. But there's a, there's a way that that can be done that is a predatory act These rich landowners were getting fat on those that they were victimizing In our, in our modern world, we tend to think of someone who is overweight as unhealthy, for good reason, right? Too much weight, and I say that with someone with a little too much padding around the middle, so no, no judgment on this, but too much weight is not healthy, right? We hear that from our doctors, that there's a healthy weight range and there's an unhealthy weight range. In the ancient world, obesity was not the concern, right? Malnutrition was the concern. And so when you see, uh, a king in the Old Testament who's, who's noted to be fat, that's not always negative. Sometimes it is, but he's noted to be fat or he's noted to be large. Even the word for glory, I'm sure you've heard this before, the word for glory in the Old Testament has to do with being heavy. So this idea of weightiness or, um, being able to eat enough to actually gain weight instead of being thin was seen as a good thing, but not when you use it as a way to victimize other people. A person who gathers wealth honestly and enjoys it, that's, that's Proverbs right there. That's the Book of Ecclesiastes in its sort of positive sense, is that we, when we accumulate wealth and we use it for God's glory, it's perfectly okay for us to also use it for our enjoyment. God wants us to enjoy the fruit of our labor. But when we accumulate wealth and use it as a way to gain power over someone and to abuse them, that is what James is railing against here And ultimately, with the audience that James is writing to, this is a form of murder. This is why he says, "You have fattened your hearts in the day of slaughter." Because a person who can't feed their family in the Old Testament or in the New Testament era was likely to see them die. There are not a ton of people in modern America that are starving to death on the streets. It's not to say it doesn't happen. It's not to say that there's not things like food insecurity or malnutrition, but there are, there are plenty of places people can go to get their basic food needs met. It was not like that-- It's not like that in most of the world now, and it certainly was not like that in the ancient world. And so a, a landowner who again refuses, we're talking about the Jewish landowners, refuses to obey the Jewish law to leave some leftovers for the poor, and instead gleans all the way to the corner so that they can turn a little bit of extra pro-profit, is not only sinning against the Old Testament law, but is committing murder in the strictest sense by refusing to preserve the life of these poor, uh, Christians who are destitute And again, James is encouraging his readers here that the Lord has not ignored their plight. We can think back to the Book of Habakkuk, where Habakkuk basically lodges a lawsuit against God, saying, "You are not paying attention. You're not doing your thing. You're not being faithful to your covenant." And God says, "Let me show you how faithful to my covenant I am. The Chaldeans are on the way." And Habakkuk is like, "Whoa, wait a second here. That's not what I had in mind." God sees the oppression of the poor. He knows when His people are targeted. He knows when children are abused or when widows are ignored. He knows when the government does something to shut down a church, or when the medical institution refuses to acknowledge your personal rights. He sees those things, and He's not ignorant, and He's not static. He's not sleeping on those things. The purpose here is to comfort the oppressed by showing that God is not ignorant of what has happened to them. Just two quick Old Testament examples that use similar language. In Genesis 4, we read of Cain and his murder of Abel, and in verse eight it says, "Cain spoke to Abel his brother, and when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel and killed him. Then the Lord said to Cain, 'Where is Abel your brother?' He said, 'I don't know. Am I my brother's keeper?' And the Lord said, 'What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying out to me from the ground.'" Numbers, uh, 35 verses 30 says, "If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death on the evidence of witnesses, but no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness. Moreover, you shall accept no ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of death, but he shall be put to death. And you shall accept no ransom from him who has fled to the city of refuge, that he may return to dwell in the land before the death of the high priest. You shall not pollute the land in which you live, for blood pollutes the land, and no atonement can be made for the land except for the blood that is shed in it, except by the blood of the one who shed it." There's a rich history in the Old Testament of language of inanimate things, land, blood, wealth, other kinds of things that give testimony to God in some way, and specifically of these inanimate, uh, impersonal things testifying to the sin of the people that dwell around them. Even Christ says, "If these people do not worship me, the rocks will cry out." Now, the rocks are not literally crying out, although it certainly would be within God's power to make the rocks sing. But Christ is not saying in that passage that the rocks are going to form mouths and begin singing Hosanna or whatever song they might have been doing. What he's saying is that the very rocks themselves give testimony to the glory and goodness of God. So even if the people around here fail to do so, the entire rest of creation is doing so, and that is what James is saying here. My dear brothers and sisters scattered in the dispersion who have nothing, and in society's eyes are nothing, some of you are facing persecution. Some of you will be killed for your faith, but God sees because the wealth that is being accumulated on the breaking of your own backs is crying out. The corrosion of that gold serves as evidence for the condemnation of those who are harming you We often want justice in the moment. I think we always want justice in the moment, don't we? I think it's a really hard discipline to say, "That person wronged me, but I'm okay letting God sort it out." That is a hard pill to swallow, but it is often the pill that we have to take. It's the medicine that God uses to further our justification, our j- our, uh, excuse me, our sanctification Paul says, you know, "Do not take vengeance. Let the Lord do that." We can trust, and this is where the comfort of this passage comes for us, brothers and sisters, we can trust that when we are wronged, that when someone has done something to us that is a violation of God's law, that that sin will be punished. Now, when we're dealing with other Christians, that sin has already been punished, and so it is not, it is not appropriate for us to hold onto that and to take vengeance. That's what the parable of the unmerciful servant is all about If I as a Christian refuse to forgive my brother and sister when they've wronged me, it's me saying that I'm a better judge of their sin and I'm a better executioner than the Lord is when he punished that sin on the cross. But that sin was not atoned for when we're talking about unbelievers. When we're talking about those who will ultimately end their earthly life and find themselves waking up in flames, that sin has not been atoned for, and so God will have his justice, and we will have our justice. We won't turn there, but in Revelation, we're familiar with the passage, I think it's chapter six, where the martyred saints are under the throne and they say, "How long, O Lord?" Well, God doesn't answer their question, but he gives them new clothes. When Job cries out and he's, he's saying, "I don't understand why this is happening. Why are you targeting me, God? Why, why are you a hunter with your arrows in my liver?" God doesn't tell him why, but he says, essentially, "I'm God and you're just going to have to trust me that this is right." We see a very similar, uh, kind of situation here when we think about when, uh, when Abraham, uh, when God tells Abraham what he's about to do to Sodom and Gomorrah, and then Abraham negotiates, apparently negotiates with God, uh, trying to secure the salvation of the city for the sake of the righteous. And we read starting in verse 20 of chapter 18, he says, "The Lord said to, to Abraham," he says, " 'Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, I will go down to see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me. If not, I will know.' " God is always seeing and investigating the sin of people We're, we're teaching my son, August, the children's catechism, which is a, a great resource. Um, and one of the questions is, "Can you see God?" And the answer is, "No, but he always sees me." Now that may feel at first to some people like a little bit of a heavy-handed answer, but knowing that God sees us is not just there to correct our sin. It should do that, right? Even the secret sins we commit in the dark when, when we're not being watched by anyone else, even, even those God sees. But do you know what else He sees? He sees your pain. He sees your suffering. He sees your victories even when no one else is celebrating them. He sees your progress. He sees you, and that should be a great source of comfort Now this passage, especially verse six, can be a little bit hard to apply because although we're the targeted audience, we're not the target of the judgment oracle. So I think what we have to do, we have to, we have to think about this in light of the way that God talks about the judgment of unbelievers in other places in the scripture, and how that helps us to understand kind of what our, what our status is. If you'll take your Bibles and open to Matthew chapter 25, I think the, um, the account here of the goat and sheep judgment, uh, is instructive for us Starting in verse 31, it says, "When the Son of Man comes in his glory and the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you or thirsty and give you a drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?' And the King answered them, 'Truly I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those on the left, 'Depart from me for you for, uh, depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, I was naked and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also, uh, they also will say, answer saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not minister to you?' Then he will answer them saying, 'Truly I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Now, this passage is sometimes understood as a general command to feed the poor or the sick, or to visit those in prisons, or any of the f- the sort of mercy ministry things that, that, um, are mentioned here. And those are all things that Christians should do, right? We should be engaged in, um, in mercy ministry to the poor, to those who are destitute. We should be mindful and thoughtful of those who have needs around us. What this passage is teaching, though, is not a general command to feed all people, but a specific command to care for your brothers and sisters in Christ when they have a need He doesn't say to the righteous, "You did these to everyone." He says, "Whatever you did to the least of these, my brothers, you did it to me." All of the things that are listed here, the, the six mercy ministries that are listed by Christ here, are things that persecuted Christians were suffering at the time, persecuted Jew- Jewish Christians, and that would be common experiences for, for Jewish Christians and for all persecuted Christians. Right? They're hungry. They don't have food. Our diaspora Jewish Christians don't have land to farm, and even if they're able to scrape together enough funding to lease out a farm, they're being, uh, they're being totally overwhelmed by the cost of that. The sort of homeowners association dues of these pyramid schemes that were going on in the first century, they were so exorbitant that it wasn't even subs- subsistence farming. Christians were being thrown in, uh, in prison. They didn't have enough money to replace their clothes when it wore out. They couldn't have access to clean water. We take clean water as such a, such a basic thing, and it's so easy. You just turn on the tap, or you just go to the store and you buy a bottle of $7 water. It wasn't like this in the first century. If you didn't have a well, you didn't have water, unless you had someone who cared enough to share this precious resource with you. And so what Christ is saying to, to his people, both in the immediate audience on the Sermon on the Mount, uh, and in this, the Olivet Discourse here, what he's saying to his people is when someone in the body of Christ does not have what they need, the body of Christ should step up and make sure that that is the case, that they take care of that person. And likewise, he's saying to those who are not a part of the body of Christ, "Depart from me, I never knew you." Now, the intro to this, why it sometimes is called a parable, is the sheep and the goats. We sometimes go way too far into the arena of comparing the behavior of sheeps with the behavior of the people here, right? Sheep are nice, they're affable, they listen to you. In reality, from what I understand, sheep are pretty dumb and can be very stubborn, right? And then we, we read and we go, "Goats are stubborn, they're rebellious, they're not really good for anything." Well, there's a reason people have goats on farms. They, they can be stubborn, right? They can be destructive, but they also serve a purpose. So the point here is not that sheep are good and goats are bad. The point is that sheep are not goats and goats are not sheep. And, uh, another point that comes with this is sheep don't become goats by behaving like goats, and goats don't become sheep by acting like sheep. I have some friends that will tell you they have very affectionate, friendly, lovable goats, right? I'd, I would... If I could get my kids one of those little pygmy goats that everybody loves, I would do that, 'cause they can be very kind, very sweet, and they're very smart. But they're not sheep. And if you read this passage carefully, this fact that those who are taken to the right are, are in fact taken to the right is not because they fed the poor. It's not because they ministered to Christ by feeding the least of these. They did those things because they were part of the kingdom The King says to those on His right, "Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." The sheep on the right were always going to be the sheep on the right. They were predestined according to the counsel of God's will before all time to live and walk in good works. That's just Ephesians 2 there. That's also just James 2 there. You have faith, I will show you my faith by my works. This is evidence language, loved ones Likewise, the ones who are told to depart into eternal darkness were also predestined not to inherit this kingdom. No kingdom was prepared for them before the foundation of the world. They have no inheritance. They have nothing. They will end up in the state that they are trying to impose on these poor Jewish Christians. They will end up in the state that they may be trying to impose on some of us in this room And for the final verse here in, in chapter five, in verse six here, there's a lot of discussion and debate in the commentaries about who the identity of this righteous one is. It says, "You've condemned and murdered the righteous person, he does not resist you." Now, some commentators will take the fact that this is the singular righteous person, that he has been murdered and h- was condemned, and will take this as a reference to Christ. And that would, would make good sense, right? The Jewish, the wealthy Jewish landowners, the wealthy Jews in Jerusalem who per- who persecuted and cast out, um, the Christians, they were in the same group of people who condemned and murdered Jesus And at least at the time of writing this, and in many ways in our own day, God is not necessarily resisting them. He's allowing them to store up judgment for the coming day of wrath There are others who will take this as sort of the hypothetical singular, right? The righteous one or the righteous person is this, uh, representative hypothetical person that represents all of the persecuted Christians. And so it's more like saying, um, to the, the wealthy landowners who are persecuting Christians, "You have condemned and murdered the Christians, the righteous people, and we do not resist you." Now, at the end of the day, it's, it's always good to have good, sober, well-intentioned, text-based debates about what the Bible means. We can and we should try to convince others, uh, when we think they're wrong about what the scripture means. So that's not what I'm saying here. But in many ways, which of those two perspectives it actually is doesn't change the interpretation of this passage. Like we read in Matthew 25, like we read in Acts 9 when Christ comes and confronts Saul, what you do to God's people, you are doing to Christ himself. What you do to the body, you have done to the head. It's a little bit weird to say that when I stub my toe, I injure my head, but that's true, right? I don't injure my toe as though it's some separate piece. It's not like I'm a Lego man where I can just swap out a hand that gets cracked and put it back on. When I injure my toe, I injure myself. My whole body is injured even though it's specific to a part of my body. When you-- when someone persecutes you, when they, uh, try to extort your wealth, your funds, when they try to harm your body, when they try to take away your children, all things that are happening not just out there in the world, but in our country, even in our own region. When they try to tell you that because you don't wanna play a basketball game, that you can't play sports at all. When a city taxes a portion of a church's property because they don't think it's being used for religious purposes, they are doing that to Jesus Christ himself, and God will not be mocked This should call us both to faithfulness and to encouragement How people treat Christ or how people treat Christ's people, including how we trust, tr- uh, treat Christ's people, shows us what we think about Christ. The people who take care of the church do so because they love God, and they do it out of a regenerated heart that already loves God. And the people who hate the church do it because they hate Christ, and they do it out of their wickedness and out of their wicked heart This brings us back again to the thesis statement of James. "Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." And then he says later in that, uh, first chapter in verse nine, "Let the lowly brother boast in his exaltation, and the rich in his humiliation, because like the flower of the grass, he will pass away. For the sun rises with its scorching heat and withers the grass; its flower fails, and its beauty perishes. So also will the rich man fade away in the midst of his pursuits. Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him." Now, you're all coming up to the end of James here. Um, we probably have two, two more sermons, I would guess, and the rest of this chapter is reinforcing this. It's unpacking for the immediate audience and therefore for us, it's unpacking that although the rich have their punishment coming to them, that likewise our consolation, our comfort from Christ is also coming to us. He closes the whole letter out, he returns to his thesis statement to say, "I'm not going to pretend that the trials you're going through are joyful, but you can count it all joy." You can reckon it, you can impute it as joy, my brothers and sisters. You can put it in the joy column instead of the t- the pain column, right? We had discussion about the beautiful word imputation in the announcements and scripture reading in the beginning here Imputation is a, is an accounting term. And when we count it all joy, we're taking what should be a red line in the, in the loss ledger, right? We're taking what should be an expense, and we're able to move it to the profit. We're able to move it to the positive side, not because it didn't hurt and not because we wanted it to happen, but because our God is good enough to not rob us of the chance to be sanctified When we are oppressed and opposed, those who are oppressing and oppose us mean it for evil, just like Joseph's brothers, uh, and Pharaoh, and all sorts of wicked men in, in the Old Testament and in our own world. Pilate, Herod, you mean, you name it in the Bible, this applies. They meant their wicked acts for wicked things, but God, rich in mercy, works all things for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. And what is that purpose? That we might be transformed into the image of Christ so that Christ may be glorified and He may be the firstborn among many brothers. When we face trials and suffering of every kind, it leads us to our sanctification and to our ultimate glorification. We do not earn those things. We don't sanctify ourselves any more than we justify ourselves, or that any more than we will glorify ourselves or will raise ourselves from the dead. That is all God's work from start to finish. But God does use these things that He brings us through as a way to bring about that work It's like he bends us over the hammer, over the anvil of trials, and he hammers us until we become a sharp sword in the hand of, in his hand. Or he polishes us with a rough cloth until we become a smooth, beautiful gem, right? Think of any number of refining things that need to be done. It always involves, if the thing was, uh, was a person, it always involves something that would hurt a little bit. It always involves a little bit of damage to wear away the impurities. Our sanctification and our glorification is no different than that. He uses adversity. He uses the wicked actions and intentions of, of evil men and women. He uses those things to glorify us. So although we should never, uh, we should never seek those things, right? You don't have to go and make yourself the soft target to the wicked people. It's okay to keep your head down. There's nothing wrong with that. The Jewish Christians were probably doing their best to keep their heads down most of the time, and that's fine. There's not any words in scripture about being a coward if you don't, if you don't put a target on your back. But your target is gonna get there eventually, and that's not a bad thing. We can welcome that. We can count it as joy because of who God is and what he's done. The supreme act of suffering, the supreme act of, of evil happened to the only innocent person there ever was, and it happened to him for us.  this episode is available below.
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  Final Judgment: Why Works Reveal Identity, Not Merit 24.07.2026 1h 3min

  In Episode 499 of the Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb conclude their extended study of Matthew 25 with a close examination of the Sheep and Goats passage (vv. 31–46). The conversation tackles one of the most frequently misread sections in the Gospels — a text often weaponized for works-righteousness or social-justice reductionism — and recovers its deeply Reformed, gospel-saturated meaning. The hosts argue that the works displayed at the final judgment are not meritorious currency but the spontaneous, unselfconscious fruit of transformed hearts. They explore the significance of the sheep's surprise, the inheritance language of the kingdom, unconditional election, and the precise meaning of "the least of these." The result is a theologically rich, pastorally grounding episode that offers genuine assurance to believers while calling the church to practical, ordinary mercy toward its own members. Key Takeaways Works at the final judgment reveal identity, not merit. The sheep are on the right because they are sheep — not because their accumulated deeds earned them a place. Their works flow from a renewed nature, not toward a threshold they must clear. The righteous are surprised — and that surprise is theologically decisive. If the sheep were consciously stacking up merit for judgment, they would have kept careful ledgers. Their inability to recall their own works demolishes any works-righteousness reading of the passage. Inheritance is not wages. Jesus' use of the word "inherit" signals that the kingdom is received by virtue of relationship, not performance — a point reinforced by Paul in Romans 8 and Galatians 4. Election precedes and grounds the works. The kingdom was prepared "before the foundation of the world," meaning the deepest cause of the sheep's blessedness long predates any of their deeds. Works are downstream of grace, never upstream. "The least of these" refers primarily to fellow believers, not to the poor in general. The phrase "my brothers" in verse 40 narrows the referent to members of Christ's body — those who belong to him by adoption, faith, and union with Christ. There is no two-stage justification. The final judgment is not a second review of whether one has done enough. It is a reassertion of the righteousness of Christ already imputed to believers — a public vindication, not a fresh assessment. Practical, ordinary mercy toward the church is the mark of kingdom membership. The six works listed — feeding, giving drink, hospitality, clothing, visiting the sick, visiting the imprisoned — are not heroic or extraordinary. They are the unglamorous, costly, consistent kindness that flows naturally from those who have been made new. Key Concepts The Surprise of the Righteous: A Devastation of Works-Righteousness One of the most theologically loaded moments in Matthew 25:31–46 is the reaction of the righteous at the judgment: "Lord, when did we see you?" They are not feigning humility. They genuinely do not remember. As Jesse Schwamb notes in this episode, this surprise is "devastating to a works-righteousness reading of the passage" — because anyone consciously building a merit ledger would have kept meticulous records. The sheep kept none. Their works flowed so naturally and unselfconsciously from hearts already made new by the Spirit that those works barely registered as remarkable. This is precisely what the Reformed doctrine of sanctification predicts: truly gracious affections issue in Christian practice as the spontaneous fruit of a transformed nature — as natural as a good tree producing good fruit. The works are real, the works matter, but they are not calculated. They are evidence, not currency. Inheritance, Election, and the Order of Grace Jesus does not tell the sheep they earned the kingdom. He tells them to inherit it — and he specifies that it was prepared for them "from the foundation of the world." These two details together form a nearly complete statement of Reformed soteriology embedded in the judgment scene itself. Inheritance, as both Paul and Jesus make clear, is received through relationship and not through performance. An heir does not negotiate terms; an heir receives by virtue of who they are in relation to the testator. Layered on top of this is the language of eternal, unconditional election: the kingdom's preparation predates all human works, good or bad. There is no "looking down the corridor of foreseen merit" here. The sheep's blessedness has its deepest root in the sovereign grace of God exercised in eternity past — which means their works, however real and meaningful, can never be the ground of their standing before the King. "The Least of These": The Church as the Primary Referent A significant and often overlooked interpretive question in Matthew 25 is the identity of "the least of these my brothers" (v. 40). The episode argues, in line with the dominant Reformed and historical reading, that this phrase refers primarily to fellow believers — members of Christ's body who are suffering, vulnerable, or marginalized within the community of faith. The word "brothers" is not incidental. It places the referent in a specific covenantal and familial relationship with Christ. This does not exclude broader applications of mercy — the hosts acknowledge that the principle may extend centrifugally outward — but the center of the text is the church's care for its own. This reading is consistent with Galatians 6:10 ("do good to all people, especially the household of faith"), with Acts 9 (where persecuting the church is persecuting Christ), and with the overall logic of the passage, in which belonging to the King is the decisive category. Memorable Quotes Their works flowed so naturally and unselfconsciously from a renewed heart that they scarcely remembered them, let alone regarded them as currency for salvation. — Jesse Schwamb Sheep are put on the right side because they are sheep, and goats are put on the left side because they are goats — not because they act like sheep or because they act like goats. Those characteristics flow from what they are. They don't make them what they are. — Tony Arsenal God provides grace. Now do all that you can do. That's the Christian way to look at things. He has prepared good works in advance for us to walk in. This is not some sort of measurement of whether or not you're in the kingdom. It's a description of what those who are in the kingdom look like and how they behave. — Tony Arsenal Full Transcript [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 499 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  [00:01:13] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brother.  [00:01:18] Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. Well, we're back. We're back in Matthew 25, and if you haven't been tracking with us for a little while, we've, we've talked about all the parables hanging out in Matthew 25. But what we've been talking about recently is this kind of surprise pop quiz, that's redundant, that Jesus kind of gives at the final judgment, and he talks about separating these groups into sheep, into goats, and the sheep aren't shocked that they get into heaven. They're shocked that their quiet, kind of unglamorous kindness apparently got tallied at all. And because all of these good works apparently are done from a heart already made new, have a way of sneaking past even their own doers' notice. But then there's this other group, the goats, and they learn the hard way that they never really did anything for anybody. And it's not a great look when your deeds are just faith's paper trail. And so Jesus has a lot to say to us in this, what we're calling, like, parable adjacent kind of message that he gives. Summarizing these three- Yeah ... great teachings, here comes all of this really direct and explicit instruction about, uh, the final judgment, which by the way is impossible for me now to hear or say without thinking of the final countdown. [00:02:30] Tony Arsenal: The final judgment.  [00:02:32] Jesse Schwamb: I was hope- I was hoping you would sing us into that, and it was beautiful. Yeah. It was fantastic.  I  [00:02:36] Tony Arsenal: try. I  try.  [00:02:37] Jesse Schwamb: So I think on this episode we got a lot to say in our ongoing conversation about this judgment, about these deeds, these works. What are they? What is their purpose, especially for these different groups of sheeps and goats? What's the deal?  [00:02:52] Affirm Deny Segment [00:02:52] Jesse Schwamb: So we'll get to all of that in just a second, but first, it's that blessed and glorious time in every Reformed Brotherhood conversation where we either affirm with something that is something that we really like, think is understated, that's really is not getting the attention, people are sleeping on, or conversely, we deny against something that just isn't that cool, just is not that great. So Tony, are you affirming with something or are you gonna deny against something today?  [00:03:17] Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming with something. I'm not sure how long this has been a thing. I stumbled upon it, uh, a little while ago, and it's been in my affirmations list for a couple weeks. Um, and I'm also not 100% sure that this is available to every Logos Bible user. So those are the caveats.  [00:03:33] Logos Minutes Reading Plans [00:03:33] Tony Arsenal: Um, what I stumbled upon is if you create a reading plan now, instead of saying, "I wanna finish this book by this date or in this number of sessions," uh, you can say, "I wanna finish this book by reading X minutes a day," which is great. Um, it's a, it's a feature that I've, I thought, like, why didn't they have this a long time ago? Because a lot of times you want to sort of set aside a certain amount of time a day. Maybe it's 15, 20 minutes of Bible reading. Maybe it's five minutes of Bible reading. Maybe it's 30 minutes of- Bavinck or Calvin or whatever you're reading. So what you can do now is you tell it the page range or you tell it, "I wanna read the whole book." Uh, you could do, you know, passages or verse ranges or sections of the Bible. And then where you normally in the next screen where it would ask you, uh, how many days you wanna read, how many sessions, or whether you wanna read until a certain date, there's a new option. And so it just divides that up based on the amount of time. What's really slick is it will actually break pages in half. Nice. So, like, if you have a short, um, either a short amount of pages that you wanna read, and it's kinda like I wanna read for two or three minutes a day, and two minutes is not a whole page. I run into this when I'm reading Matthew Henry when I'm preparing for sermons, because for whatever reason, uh, maybe it's just the Logos page pagination, but the pages are really long. Like, a one page of Matthew Henry's commentary will sometimes take, like, 10 or 15 minutes to read, which is obnoxious. Um, I think it's just that the pages are just, like... I don't know, I think it's just long pages. Um, but if you say I wanna read this one page and I wanna read for five minutes a day, it'll actually split the page up, um, into chunks based on the word count and whatnot. And obviously, that five minutes is, it's not calculating how quickly you read, like, uh, Kindle does sometimes when you're doing that.  [00:05:25] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:05:25] Tony Arsenal: Um, so it's basing that on an average reading speed. So if you're a little faster, uh, of a reader, then it'll be, you know, you'll get done a little quicker, and it might take you a little longer if you're slower. But it's a really slick feature, and I think it's, like I said, I think most of us If we wanna be diligent to read whatever it is we're reading, whether it's the Bible or other theological works, um, we want to set aside time, and we wanna sorta time block. We've talked a lot about productivity, um, in this podcast. We wanna, like, time block our time so it's protected and it's, it's set aside for that task or for that purpose, and this is a great way to do it. So you just put it on your calendar. You say, "I've got 15 minutes that's set aside to read the Bible in the morning, and I know that it's gonna be a digestible chunk." And then it's a, you know, it's no longer a, a date-bound reading plan, so there's no falling behind. If you miss a day, it just means you pick up the next day. Right. So it's a great way to do it. Again, not that there's anything wrong with time-bound reading plans or deadlines, but it's a little bit of a different way to make sure that you're getting into the Word or whatever book you're reading, uh, consistently. [00:06:30] Jesse Schwamb: That's definitely a feature that I think people are sleeping on in Logos. I have that too, so I don't know if, like you said, it is d- coupled with some kind of particular package or dependent on that.  [00:06:40] Stress Free Reading Habits [00:06:40] Jesse Schwamb: But generally, I think maybe we haven't spoken enough about, like, just making what- whatever it looks like, stress-free reading plans, because I was also reading some stuff by Ryan Holiday recently, and just the reminder of how there really is a fair amount of time to read, to actually consume, like- Yeah good written material. And really, it's maybe a little bit more about how, like, we understand walking and the benefits of walking now. You don't need to, like, set aside 20 or 30 minutes to go for a walk. Even going for, like, a quick burst of three to five minutes is so happy and healthful for you. And so I think- Yeah that in the same way, we actually do have more time to read than we think, and if you wanna, like, consume material and learn more things or just become more meditative in your thoughts spiritually, I think if you create the plan, that's just another thing to, like, help you on the way. But it's gotta be one that's, like, stress-free, like you're saying, and that's what I like about the Logos. You just set it up, and every time you go back into it, it's kinda asynchronous, and so, like, it just starts you off with wherever you're at. It's never gonna, like, pop up and be like, "You missed a day, and now you owe me 60 pages." Yeah. "Get on the ground and give it to me." Like, it's, it's not gonna be like that. So I love the joy of having the plan before you, and then that means that when the time comes, you're like, "Oh, I got a couple minutes," you can just go there. It can guide you into that reading, like, easily, succinctly, with low barriers, and make you feel happy and feel, like, that joy of reading again.  [00:08:04] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I, I think it's great. And, you know, I think sometimes we fall into this trap, and you kind of alluded to it. Like, you fall into this trap that if you don't, uh, if you don't have, like, 20, 30 minutes to sit and read, that it's not worth it. Right. Right. And I know I used to fall into that trap, where I felt like if I didn't sit down and read an entire chapter, that I somehow was not actually, like, getting the material. But I think most of us have some sort of regular, uh, like, waste time. Uh, and what I mean is, like, for me, I ride the bus home every, like, every day. Most days I ride the bus home, and I know that's about a 25, 30-minute period of time that, um, I can choose to, like, scroll Twitter, and that's fine. Like, it's fine to do that. I can listen to podcasts. Um, I can do all sorts of stuff. I play video games on my tablet. Um, or I could set aside 15 of those minutes and have a p- sort of a preset reading. And you will be surprised, or maybe you won't. Maybe I'm the only one who's been surprised at this, but I think you'll be surprised uh, to find how quickly you actually move through material, even at- Right something like five minutes a day. So just for example, Joel Beeke's, uh, Systematic Theology Volume 1 is about 28 hours worth of reading, at least according to Logos. If you set aside 15 minutes per day, you will finish that reading in approximately 114 sessions. So that's not that long. That's not bad. That's like a third of a year. That's not bad, yeah. So you could, you could read through all of Joel Beeke, which is thousands of pages. I mean, we're talking, we're talking four, four different five or 600 page volumes. Um, and this, this actually is counting, like, the table of contents and the index, so, like, not all of it is what you're gonna read. You could read through that whole thing in under a year and a half if you just set aside 10 or 15 minutes. Um, and obviously if you have more time, maybe you have a 45 minute, um, bus ride home or, you know, you, you regularly have doctor's appointments and you know you're gonna be in the waiting room two days a week every week or something like that, this is a great way to just make sure you've got something set aside. Like your dad always says, you always say, like, "Bring a book." Well- That's right ... this is not only bring a book, but it's bring a book with like a s- like a set chunk of that book set aside for that time period. So maybe it's your lunch break, maybe it's the walk in from the bus stop, whatever it is. Um, I think it's, it's pretty straightforward. And all the old features, like all the old ways of setting up reading plans are still there. They're not eliminating those. Um, and this is just a great way, I think, to get, kind of get your reps in. Like, sometimes you just have to do the work and- Right ... get your reps in.  [00:10:45] Jesse Schwamb: Get it.  [00:10:45] Tony Arsenal: And this is a low pressure, this is a low pressure way to do it. It's not, um, it's not setting aside specific amounts of, uh, dates or anything like that. So yeah, check it out. It's, it's super easy to access, it's the same way you would always make a reading, um, like a reading goal. Um, and you actually can still set a regular reading schedule even with this feature. You could still say, "I wanna read Monday, Wednesday, Friday." You could say, "I don't wanna have a schedule at all," which means you just, when you click on it, it just brings you to the next section, but there's never any reminders. So they actually really are, like, expanding the way that, uh, you're able to generate these reading plans. The one thing I wish they had that I'm not sure why they don't, I wish they had a dynamic catch-up feature where, like, if you were... You know, let's say I wanted to finish this book and I wanted to finish it by, I don't know, the end of the year, and I missed a couple days or I missed a week, I wish there was a way to push a button and have it just redistribute the remaining readings out across- Right ... what's left of the reading plan. That's not there. That's a... If you're listening, Logos, or someone who works at Logos, that's what we need. I've told you that before. Why haven't you listened to me? But, um, uh, yeah, we need that. But th- this is a good start too, because again, it's, it's not, um- It's not making you do a deadline. Right. So it's much more relaxed paced. [00:11:59] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly. Exactly. That's one of the things I love about it.  [00:12:03] Burst Reading Benefits [00:12:03] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, let me make, like, one more plea if you're, like, like you're listening and you're unconvinced about this burst style reading, and that is I've been so convinced that that kind of consumption can be really helpful to processing reading. Because especially if it's like, say you're reading something of the Puritans or something relatively deep, there is something to be said of course for, like, being able to sit down if you have all this time and just kind of read to get the flow. But what I think even there I struggle with is some things are worth stopping and thinking about, and this forces- Yeah ... some kind of meditation that happens in the background anyway, and I've found that to be so helpful. Like, it kind of just creates a little bit of attentional space by way of making you walk away from the thing that you just read. And also, if you know that you've only got this short little time span available, I think I'm prone to read kind of in a different way with a little bit more focus.  [00:12:52] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:12:53] Jesse Schwamb: And then I find myself really thinking about some of those things. And some of the things that you and I talk about, the things that we love to read, are worth stopping and considering. And so it's too easy to be like, "Well, I just, I need to hit the page number. I gotta get the count in. I wanna get this volume finished." Yeah. And that's great, but at the same time, like presumably, like we read to comprehend, we read to put into practice, we read to, like, help us build wisdom and to process the world and to understand things in a more robust and profound way, and that can really only happen with that kind of spacing. So this builds in some spacing, so embrace that as I think a feature and not a bug maybe of some good reading.  [00:13:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, it's funny you, you mentioned Ryan Holiday earlier. One of the things I appreciate about his, um, at least most of his books, I've only read the sort of the Stoic Wisdom series, but, um, he keeps his chapters super short. [00:13:40] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:13:40] Tony Arsenal: So, like, part of that is sort of the self-help grocery store format that he's, he's going for. Um, not that it's... It's not empty calories, that's not what I'm saying. I think sometimes that is implied there. But he keeps his chapters short, so it's very easy, like, to just pick up. I'm working through Discipline Is Destiny right now. It's the one I'm reading now. It's very easy to just pick it up and be like, "I'm gonna read one chapter," and it's, like, five, 10 minutes long. Um, and the chapters are... They're not identical, but they repeat enough themes that, like, y- you don't need to really, like, sit down and really, like, cram through it to get the concept. Right. But you'll read through and you'll get the concept over and over again. And I actually think the Puritans can... Some of the Puritans can be that same way, where they say the same thing- Right ... slightly differently over and over again. Um, another book that reminds me of that is, um, Knowing Christ by Mark Jones, which we talked, but that's a, it's weird that that's actually kind of an old book now. Um- Right ... I think it's coming up on close to a decade now since it came out. Um, but those chapters are super short, 10, 15 minutes. So this kind of at a burst reading, session reading, rap reading, whatever you wanna call it, it's actually super productive and it's, it is, you're right, it's very good for meditation because you are taking time to do it. You're doing it consistently, so it's kind of, it's kind of like hammering itself into your head. Um, but it's not, it's not so much time that it, you get, like, reading fatigue.  [00:15:01] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Right. Exactly. That's a beautiful thing.  [00:15:04] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:15:05] Jesse Schwamb: I, I agree. Like, it's reading all kinds of ways, but one of the things that Ryan Holiday was recently convicted me of is, like, he talks about how many things he's able to consume. People are always like, "How are you able to read all those books with all the traveling, all the different things, engagements that you have?" And he's like, "Because I just read all the time. I read when I'm-" Right ... waiting at the post office. I read when I have, like, literally three minutes between doing something or picking up a kid, that, that I read." And I don't know, I kinda like that idea. I, I... he's not ashamed to be like, "If that's... If I have 30 seconds, I probably just pull up a book," because I think that that's even- Yeah ... valuable space in which to consume good writing. So, and when I r- I, I, like, subscribe to all, maybe like you, like all these different feeds, all these lists. There are just- Yeah ... so many things I wanna read. My to-read list is so stacked, pun intended, and it's like books of- I know ... all kinds. And then I'm in this space now where I find that as I'm getting older, again, one, like suddenly birds continue to be interesting to me in new ways that I never anticipated, and the second thing is, like, suddenly I wanna read all this history. And so, like, now there's like this whole, where it never really appealed to me before, now there's like this, all this new, like, vistas opened up, and I'm like, "Who has time for this?" So- Yeah ... maybe the idea is to just, again, consume it in bites. And I'm beginning to really appreciate that as an effective strategy for not, like, re- necessarily reading more, but learning more, and learning it better. [00:16:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I actually think it is probably an effective strategy for reading more for most people. I know it has been for me- True ... to just sit down and do, do a few minutes at a time. Um- Just get it ... I've got kids, there's work to do. Like, it's, y- you're not gonna be able to... Most, I think most of our listeners are probably not in a- stage of life anymore where you can really devote hours to study like you maybe you could when you were in your 20s, where you just- Right you had a job and you didn't have much else responsibility. You, you just, you know, you just had things to do. Uh, it's not like that for most of us anymore. So being able to take five, 10 minutes and, and read a book is probably a luxury, but it's probably a luxury that we could, we could probably structure our lives and make that more of a reality. Right. And this feature in Logos will help you do that with really any theological book you can practically think you wanna get your hands on that's available on Logos. So Jesse- Right ... we could talk about reading all night every night, and we- ... love to read, but that's not what this podcast is about today. So why don't you tell us what you're affirming or denying?  [00:17:27] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:17:27] Jesse Book Pick Perkins [00:17:27] Jesse Schwamb: Well, now, now I'm gonna switch it up because I had a book, and so, like, it just seems like people are gonna be like, "Oh, of course," and you just rolled right into that. So the quick affirmation is more Puritan stuff, A Perfect Redeemer by William Perkins. That's this week's book, so you should do that. I don't know if it's available on Logos. I presume that it is, and you can set up your own reading plan, and it's beautiful and amazing, and Perkins makes a case that true satisfaction isn't found in things, but in Christ. He tears down all these illusions of self-sufficiency and points us to rest fully in God's grace. It's beautiful. It's glorious. It's practical. It's like 27, to your point, Tony, 27, I think, like, really brief chapters. Perfect for the bus. Like, it's prime bus reading.  [00:18:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:18:06] Jesse Schwamb: So yeah, that's affirmation. Okay.  [00:18:07] Denial Dying Guitar Batteries [00:18:07] Jesse Schwamb: Here's a denial, 'cause I've rarely do denials, but as you were speaking I was reminded of one that came up this morning that maybe is only going to really resonate with a small group, but I think if you know, you know. I was actually, this denial was constructed out of a conversation I had with a dear brother this morning, who I think was sharing the denial with me, uh, but might have been suspicious entirely of what I was going after. But it's this. A lot of, I'm trying to think how to set this up properly so it's, like, explained to a wider audience. So a lot of guitar instruments, that's a weird way to say this, but, like, I'm talking about guitars that have to be plugged in, have some kind of, like, onboard electronics. But principally, like, electric instruments. I'm talking about, like, electric bass, electric guitar. They usually have what's called, like, a preamp in them, which means that the signal is essentially being set up before it goes to the board, and that process requires some power. And so generally those instruments have, like, a little, you know, battery that goes in them, uh, uh, different kinds. Here's my denial. I don't know why so many of these instruments, including the- most of the ones that I own, have no nothing, no indicator to tell you how close that battery is to dying. And so what happens is- Yeah you, I think every musician, everybody who plays an instrument of, of this nature has had this happen to them, where they need to play it in a critical environment, and then the battery dies. And why I'm denying this is because this came up for me yesterday, where I was, had the benefit of playing at a church event, but it was with my acoustic electric guitar. It, it's a Martin D-16. It's a beautiful guitar. But even the Martin, it doesn't have an indicator on it. And so, like, I always swap out the battery, which I think is probably pretty wasteful, because I knew I had to leave this guitar plugged in on stage for, like, almost two and a half hours before it was gonna be used, and whenever it's plugged in, it's drawing the power. And so, so many times you get halfway through, you're playing, you're in a worship set or you're making music with people, and it just goes out on you, and when it goes out, there's no way to get the sound back except for, at least in my instrument, you have to unplug it, you have to pop out the battery, you have to put it back in. There's no, nothing discreet about this. There's nothing convenient about this. And there's certainly nothing- ... like, noiseless about that, especially if the person running sound is not being- Doesn't know ... very, like, adept with how they're handling the instrument so that you don't, like, blow people's ears out as you try to replace the battery. So I'm just wondering about this. Like, come on, instrument manufacturers. I know it's probably not pretty to put this somewhere, but you could put it somewhere discreet. Here's what I just wanna say, though, finally. Um, please don't at me. I know that there are some, especially like acoustic electric guitars, Fender's a good example, like onboard Fishman pickups that have, like, the EQ box. Some of them do have this indicator, but not enough. And if it's, like, an electric guitar- Yeah ... I rarely see this on a pure electric guitar. So please, for the love, just put, like, a little light. Maybe, maybe it turns orange or yellow or red when, like, the battery's about to go. I just, I need to know, because it's, it's so nerve-wracking when you're playing and you're like, "Oh, no. When did I last change this battery? How much longer is this thing going to last?"  [00:21:28] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. You know, I'm, I'm wondering, um, maybe I don't know enough about electrical engineering, but I actually feel like being able to determine when a random battery is starting to lose charge is probably a fairly intricate process, so that might be why, like, there's not as many. It's funny, my Ibanez guitar, which I haven't, I haven't even taken out of its case in years, I just don't, don't have a, a, a real occasion for it anymore, um, it has an indicator on it. So it's funny that you say that 'cause, like-  [00:21:59] Jesse Schwamb: Some do  [00:22:00] Tony Arsenal: Not a cheap guitar, but it's, um- Right ... it's not, yeah, it's not like a super expensive guitar. Uh, and it does have a little indicator. It's just like a little blinking light when the battery- Yes ... starts to go, it just blinks. Um, but yeah, even then, it still... It's funny, I, um, when I was in like high school and, and first couple years of college, I helped out with youth ministry at my church quite a bit, and I would often be on the team that would go, like, down to the camp the day before to set up all the equipment and to, like, get everything ready. And I remember I was always, I was always being told like, "Make sure you change the batteries. Make sure you change the batteries." Right. And like- Right ... it was always my job first thing in the morning to go around to all the microphones and all the guitars and, like, change out all the batteries. And I remember thinking, "This is so wasteful." Right. But then I remember, like, the one time we didn't do it, and it, like, crashed in the middle of, like, the big... And again, like, I don't even know if I would support this model of camp ministry anymore, but it crashed in the middle of, like, the big worship set on, like, the, like, the emotional decision- Yeah for Jesus night. Your altar call- It crashed in the middle of it ... totally blown  [00:23:01] Jesse Schwamb: up.  [00:23:01] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and it, it, and it did. Like, it affected everything. We had to, like, stop and... So yeah, always, always change your batteries. Um, you know, like, I, you, I, when I was doing musical worship on a regular basis, I just had a couple, like, inexpensive rechargeable batteries that I would swap out at the beginning of each session. I would put the battery that was in my guitar into the charger and the battery that was in the charger into my guitar. Um, and those, those wear out over time too, so that- Right ... you know, that, that's not a healthy charging habit for those batteries, and you go through them faster. But it's better than throwing away a nine-volt battery every couple of, you know, couple of days, so. [00:23:37] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:23:37] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. That's annoying. It's, it's obnoxious when that happens. Um,  [00:23:40] Jesse Schwamb: that's, that's why I'm just straight denying against it. I suspect that this is a matter of aesthetics, and that many of these manufacturers don't wanna put something as ugly as a light somewhere on this beautiful instrument, even if it's in, like, a discreet place. That's my guess. Yeah,  [00:23:53] Tony Arsenal: maybe.  [00:23:54] Jesse Schwamb: I also theorize, like, why can't there be an intermediary pedal that would help us with this? So, like, many people, including myself, have a tuning pedal which you can essentially bypass, and you, you engage it when you wanna tune. Why can't that draw... I, I think it should be relatively straightforward, but who knows? But either way, all I need is just a heads-up. I don't need like a, "You have, you know, 16% left," or, "You have 2.67 hours left." I just need to know that it's not gonna fail me at this most critical time. Like, just tell me to swap it. That's all, that's all, that's all you have to say. Yeah. Just tell me to swap it. So I'm sure it's more complicated than this, but I think it might be a matter of, of beauty over function and purpose- Maybe ... because-  [00:24:33] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:24:34] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's probably- Many, many are particular about that kind of thing Yeah. So anyway- Yeah ... yeah, I, that's maybe... I like what you said, Tony. It's maybe a good PSA. Like, change your batteries often and frequently. Don't be like me. Don't be in that position where all of a sudden, I remember I was leading some very acoustic worship on an evening service. It was a very full congregation, probably, like, 200 people. And, uh, we finished up, and somebody had to yell out, uh, "We can't hear your guitar at all." And I'm just up there playing. [00:25:01] Tony Arsenal: Ugh.  [00:25:01] Jesse Schwamb: And yeah. You know, it's distracting. It's one of those things. But-  [00:25:04] Tony Arsenal: Yeah ...  [00:25:05] Jesse Schwamb: um, in the end... Uh, ironically, some people at the end of that were like, "Well, that was really great. It was much better than usual. We heard a lot less guitar." And I was like- ... "Okay."  [00:25:14] Tony Arsenal: My, um, my Ibanez, I never used it, but my Ibanez has an XLR cable in addition to the quarter-inch- Oh and the XLR provides power to the preamp. So that's- See, there you go ... the real solution is just to have a direct XLR, uh, XLR mic cable that goes in, uh, and then you bypass the direct box. Although then you can't, then you can't go into a tuner or pedal. Yes. So-  [00:25:33] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly ...  [00:25:34] Tony Arsenal: pros and cons. Yeah. But-  [00:25:35] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. It go- it, it, it's all over the place. But let, let's talk about- Yes ... judgment, shall we? Like, what, what-  [00:25:41] Tony Arsenal: Welcome, welcome to the Reformed Guitar Cast for the  [00:25:43] Jesse Schwamb: night. Yes. E- exactly. We could talk all day about books, reading, reading plans, study plans, productivity, and guitars. These are all beautiful things. And  [00:25:51] Tony Arsenal: batteries and  [00:25:52] Jesse Schwamb: electrics. And batteries. Of which, uh, allegedly you can ha- never have enough of any of those things in that group.  [00:25:57] Tony Arsenal: It's true.  [00:25:58] Back To Matthew 25 Reading [00:25:58] Jesse Schwamb: But let's talk about, uh, judgment. And I suppose we should go back to Matthew 25, which we've been hanging out in quite a bit. And someday we'll move out of this passage. Pro- probably not today, but someday- we will actually get beyond it. And I, I know, I know we're 25 minutes in, but I am gonna read again for all of us because Tony and I, you have been resolute in saying that the best parts of our conversations really are the scripture, hearing them and going through them with great depth and a deliberate kind of measured slowness, which we're unapologetic for. And so let's just go to Matthew 25. I'm gonna read verses 31 through 46 with a f- a fair amount of speed, but enough to get us to the place where again, I just want this to be familiar as we speak about it. "But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them one from another as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom which has been prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me something to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me in, naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me. I was in prison, and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him saying, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? And when did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and come to you?" And the King will answer and say to them, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brethren of mine, even the least of them, you did it to me." Then he will also say to those on his left, "Depart from me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me." Then they themselves also will answer saying, "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not take care of you?" Then he will answer them saying, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these, least of these, you did not do it to me." And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous unto eternal life  [00:28:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:28:29] Heavy Passage Rightly Used [00:28:29] Tony Arsenal: Like we said last week, this is a really kinda heavy passage. Um, and it can be, uh... Let me put it this way. It can be used to make, uh, believers fearful in the wrong way. I, I do think the, the passage is to instill fear of God and is inst- to drive us to good works. But it can be used in a way to sort of, as I mentioned last week, it can be used in a way to sort of say, "If you don't do all these good things and you don't measure up, then Jesus never knew you." Um, and, and it implies, or sometimes even fully says that, uh, Jesus comes to know us because of the good works that we do. Right. Right? And that's just not, um, that's just not Christian theology. That's not Reformed theology certainly. Um, it's, it's not Protestant theology, and it's not even really Roman Catholic theology down. Um, but this passage really is more about understanding what marks the life of a person who has already come to faith in Christ. That's right.  [00:29:30] Justification Not Two Stage [00:29:37] Tony Arsenal: What marks the life of someone who has been changed and transformed, uh, to be like their master, like their king. Um, so, so this passage doesn't try to teach us what we have to do to merit eternal life. Um, this isn't... A- and maybe we'll get into some of this, I don't know if we will or not, but this isn't sort of John Piper future justification, um, you know, on the basis of works, or future sa- salvation on the basis of works. Um, there's no two stages to justification, right? If we're justified, it's because Christ has imputed his righteousness to us. That's right. And what happens in the, in the final judgment, there's a real thing that happens, but it's not an assessment of whether or not we have done enough or been enough. It's the reassertion of the righteousness of Christ over us. So we'll, we'll get into that, we'll talk about it, but I wanted to make sure we set the frame for that, um, before we get into it. 'Cause sometimes when you talk about these passages, it's hard to talk about future judgment according to works, which is a genuine Christian reality, right? There's a future judgment according to works. But it's hard to talk about that without starting to sound a little bit like we're, we're earning our salvation or, like, our, our justification's in, like, sort of a second stage of review or something like that. So we'll, we'll get into that, but this is not, this is not works righteousness, this is not future justification, this is two stages of justification. [00:30:52] Jesse Schwamb: And that seems, like, very clear from the way that Jesus sets this whole up. The language is so beautifully gospelly centered and oriented.  [00:31:00] Inheritance Not Wages [00:31:00] Jesse Schwamb: Even behind the judgment, like, this curtain of judgment, when you, when you open it up, is the gospel in all of its fullness, and that begins with th- this idea of inheriting the kingdom. And inheritance, of course, is not wages. In fact, like, Paul makes this kind of, like, identical move in Romans 8 and in Galatians 4 where he basically emphasizes what Jesus is talking about here. That is, sons and daughters inherit, inherit. They don't earn a paycheck. An heir receives by virtue of relationship and not performance. And that single word is, I think in the judgment of, like, most of the Reformed understanding here, decisive for, like, reading this whole passage correctly. That whatever role these works mention in verses 35 and 36 play, they cannot be meritorious works. It's not the ground of the inheritance, because inheritances by definition are not earned. Yeah.  [00:31:51] Election Before Works [00:31:51] Jesse Schwamb: And then, like, right into the same kind of train of thought, the same line of reasoning, is this idea that, well, not only are you inheriting the kingdom, but all this was prepared for you before the foundation of the world. And here again is, like, the beautiful gospel in the form of this un- you know, eternal, like, unconditional election stated, like, very plainly. Now the kingdom isn't pr- w- was not prepared in response to, like, some kind of foreseen works. I think we talked about that last week, right? Did we talk about the cor- looking down the corridor, all that kind of weird stuff? Yeah.  [00:32:22] Tony Arsenal: Yep.  [00:32:23] Jesse Schwamb: It was prepared in eternity past before any works, like good or bad, had been performed by anyone. And so that's, like, the true answer, in my opinion, to, like, any Pelagian or semi-Pelagian reading of this passage. The deepest cause of the sheep's blessedness long predates their deeds of mercy, and so their works are downstream of election and grace, not upstream of it. That's really good news. Like, that again is the Gospel, that all things are entrusted to, belong to God. God does all the verbs. However you want to say it, what we have here is true grace, and that their works are flowing out of that grace. And so because of that, there's no... It's, like, it would be insanity to boast in them, because that boasting would mean absolutely nothing. And so Jesus sidesteps that altogether by talking about inheriting the kingdom and having this all prepared for us before the foundation of the world. [00:33:15] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:33:15] Kingdom Language Clues [00:33:15] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and there's some interesting, um, I think some interesting text feature that I just noticed here that, um, I don't wanna read too much into it, but one of the things that's striking about this is the, the language around the sheep or around those on the, um, on the right of the king here. Um, there's much more of a communal, um, kingdom-type language, right? Uh, in the first section where it's talking about those on the right, uh, the word king is used repeatedly.  [00:33:45] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:33:45] Tony Arsenal: Right? And then when you get to the second section on those on the left, the ones that the, the, the righteous son of man does not know, um, it doesn't use the word king. And that's not, of course, not to say that he's not the king of those who are, you know, condemned. He's the king of all. But there is this, this, uh, obviously intentional, uh, choice to use the word king, and what, what is a king if not someone who has a kingdom and a people? Exactly. So there, there even baked into that simple linguistic feature is already this idea that the people he's speaking to are his people. And so, like I said, we've talked about parables and parable-adjacent teaching as kind of being sort of systematic language in story form, systematic theology in story form. Even here, we're seeing election, we're seeing definite atonement, right? The people are his people because he prepared this kingdom for them before the foundation of the world. [00:34:42] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:34:42] Tony Arsenal: Um, and then the, the people who aren't his, they don't even get to be associated with him as king. They don't even beg- get to, get to be associated with his kingdom. They're so far outside of the kingdom of heaven, outside of this kingdom, that even to say that the king is speaking to them is almost like, uh, it's almost like a contradiction, right? So, um- In sort of like common parlance, we might refer to another nation's king as King Charles or, you know, K- King whatever, um, or President so-and-so. But that person is not my king. Right. And so although, like, maybe there's some decorum just in general, and, like, politically it's wise, I'd have no obligation to call King Charles King Charles. Like, I can ... I ... He's not my king. I don't owe any obligation of, of fidelity to him or to his title or to his crown. Another funny example, um, recently, um, you know, I work, uh, at a hospital. We have a spiritual health or chaplaincy department, and there's some Catholic priests who are on staff there. And, um, the, the spiritual health department is part of the care experience group, which is the same group that my patient relations team is part of. And some- someone noticed that at, like, broader team group meetings, I don't refer to them as Father. I'm one of the only people in the room who just says Joakim or, you know, or Sam. Like, I don't ... And they don't mind. It doesn't bother them at all.  [00:36:03] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:36:04] Tony Arsenal: Um, and it's funny because someone asked me that, and I'm like, "Well, they're not my priest, and I, like, I don't acknowledge- Right their status as the Father. Like, there's actually some biblical reasons why I wouldn't do that." I think this is kind of sort of almost like, in a third person perspective, kind of the same thing. Like, the k- king, i- the, the Gospel writer here, Matt, is refusing to use the word king in relation to this Son of Man in relation to these people to say something about them, to say something about those people- Yes who are outside of the kingdom  [00:36:34] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, that's right on. It's a bit like, I suppose, in a, a lesser way, like there was a time... So you're married to my sister. There was a time where you weren't, we weren't Yeah ... uh, and during that time, like I, I was not in your family, nor were you in mine.  [00:36:48] Tony Arsenal: Right.  [00:36:48] Jesse Schwamb: And then at, when you married her, I am part of your family. Like you can't kick me out. As long as you're married to Ashley, I will be part of your family and you part of mine. Right. That's how it works. And so that identity proceeds, like it c- this is like confusion between identity sometimes and I think like harmony, and so many people wanna read this as like some kind of like harmonic reflection of the state of obedience of these persons, and therefore, if they had harmony, then they were in the kingdom, and that's getting it backwards. That they were part of God's kingdom by his family by definition of identity.  [00:37:20] Surprised Righteous Hearts [00:37:20] Jesse Schwamb: So that by the time like we get to verse 37 when Jesus is saying the, the righteous are gonna answer him and they're gonna say, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?" I think that's one of the most like theologically important verses in this passage, which proves the point you just made. And I think it's often under-read because the righteous, they don't remember doing any of these things for Christ. They are surprised. They have like no self-conscious ledger of merit that they can point to, and that surprise I think is devastating to works righteousness reading of the passage because- Yes if these people were consciously stacking up merit to present at the judgment, then they would've kept a very careful account. But instead, their works flowed so naturally and unselfconsciously from a renewed heart that they scarcely remembered them, let alone like regarded them as currency for salvation. And so I think, I know there's been a lot written, you and I have talked about a lot about how people wanna parse this idea of works, understanding that it has some place, but what is that proper place? This I think does lead us into like the right focus in that kind of discussion because it's precisely what like the Reformed doctrine of sanctification would predict, and that is, you know, truly gracious affections I think issue in Christian practice as a reliable sign, hear me out here, but crucially that practice is not calculated or like self-res- referential. It's like the spontaneous fruit of transformed nature, as natural it is for a good tree to bring forth good fruit. And so the righteous in this passage, they're not the legalists that some would, I think, portray them to be or get worried that they are. They're not tallying good deeds. They're simply people who, having been made new, and who makes them new? God in Christ, right, through the power of the Holy Spirit. Because they've been made new, they just could not help but love their neighbor.  [00:39:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:39:13] Sheep And Goats Identity [00:39:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and, and you know, I think it's sometimes hard... We, we made the point last week that, um, the, the language in verse 32 where it says, uh, "He," He being the Son of Man, "He will separate one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats," that, that comparative as is the same language that introduces other parables. Right. And so the, the parable, parabolic element of this is a comparison to a shepherd separating two different kinds of animals in his, his bigger flock. Mm-hmm. I made the point that like we should be careful to overread sort of like what sheep are like into the behavior of those who are righteous on the right of Christ here. Um, because sheep are dumb, sheep do stupid things, sheep are disobedient. There, there's no use for like sheep to do good things and goats are not. And productive goats are also productive. Um, so what we should see though is that sheep are put on the right side because they are sheep, and goats are put on the, the left side because they are goats. Um, not because they act like sheep or because they act like goats, right? And so I think, yes, goats and sheep may have thinked behavioral, recognizable behavioral characteristics, but those characteristics flow from what they are. They don't make them what they are.  [00:40:35] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:40:35] Tony Arsenal: And so I think that's kind of what we see here in the parable, is the people on the, the right, the righteous on the right hand of the, the Son here, of the King as He sits on His glorious throne, the righteous simply do what righteous people do, right? They, they don't ... So much so, and again I think the shock of this is, is sort of the, the path of the teaching. The shock of this, the surprise of this on the part of the righteous are, uh, like it's palpable. And I think that when you actually talk to someone who is ... Think of the most sanctified, holy, righteous Christian you know, right? And I'm not gonna try to tell you who that is, but think of that person and think of a time that you have paid them a compliment or thanked them for doing the right thing.  [00:41:24] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:41:24] Tony Arsenal: They're like, "Oh, I didn't even think about that." Like, it's just not even on, not even on their radar. How many times have you, um, have you done a kind thing for someone at work and they like make a big deal out of it and you're like, "Oh, this is just I thought this is just what we do to each other. I thought we were just kind to each other." Um, and, and f- the flip side of this too is the, uh, the righteous in this parable or in this teaching, they're actually sort of like questioning the Lord's judgment in that they're saying like, "Wait a second, like w- why am I on the right here?" And He's like, "Well, uh, you were h- I was hungry and you fed me, and I, you know, I was thirsty and you gave me drink." And they're like, "When did we do that?" The flip side- Right ... of that is that those on the left, they're trying to justify themselves, right? They're trying to justify themselves, 'cause He's like, "Well, you didn't do these things. You're not my people." And they're like, "Well, when did we see you? When did we see you, when did you have these things happen and we didn't take care of it?" So the, the righteous are like surprised that this happened, and are almost questioning the fact that it's true, and the unrighteous are trying to justify themselves, basically blaming God. Bad judgment. It's not altogether, um... I forget which pro- I wanna say Micah or Malachi, one of those two, um, um, where the, the, um, God basically says, like, "Y- you, you're sinful people." And they're like, "When? When were we sinful people? Like, you tell me." Yeah. And then of course he does, 'cause it's the prophets. Right. But it's the same kind of thing. He comes to the, to the unrighteous in judgment. He says, "Depart from me, y- you cursed people." And then he says, "These are the, these are the things that have marked your life." And then they're like, "Where, when did that mark my life? Like, what are you talking about?" And he, he, the funny part is he doesn't give them an answer. He doesn't explain to them really. Right. He, he just like, "No, you can go, you can go away from me 'cause you." He does say like, "Well, you never, you did not do this to the least of these," and we, we need to unpack that phrase a little bit. But he doesn't give a long explanation to them justifying his judgment. He just makes the statement, basically makes the statement again, "You just didn't do it, so that's the consequence of eternal punishment." Um, again, not in like, "You didn't feed the poor, therefore you're going to hell" kind of a statement. It's more like, "You are not the kind of person that is a, a part of my kingdom." [00:43:48] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:43:49] Tony Arsenal: Without necessarily a firm statement about w- how that came to be, just a statement, "You are not the kind of person that is part of my kingdom." That's  [00:43:56] Jesse Schwamb: right. That's right. I think that's actually very evident in these, like, six concrete works of mercy which are listed, feeding, giving drink, hospitality to strangers, clothing, visiting the sick, uh, visiting the imprisoned. And as we've said before, those are not extraordinary feats. I mean, there's no mention- Right ... of miracles or doctrinal precision or heroic martyrdom. Yeah. It's just these ordinary, super unglamorous ministry of practical love, and I think that is significant, like you're saying, because it is a mark of true faith, this idea that it's found frequently not in spectacular religious performance, which is what some of the audience is probably after, honestly, but in this quiet but costly unnoticed compassion. And I think that is critical to understanding that those who have been identified and marked by Christ undertake these things with a seriousness, under being willing to bear the c- the cross and the curses and the cost of all those things, uh, because it is born out of a transformed life, one that has been re-identified almost as it were a new creation. And so that- Yeah ... created man does these things without putting the notches on the belts, so to speak, to tally them up because I think to that person that would be insane. What is the purpose of doing that? If I can't earn my salvation, I'm doing these things anyway. It, it wouldn't even matter. It's like trying to pay a bill that you have no money for anyway. Why would you then try to count the dollars that you have in your pocket to see if for some reason you could cover the cost? It's impossible. Yeah. And so everything changes to such a degree that I know we keep saying, like, surprised, and that is what is kind of manifested in the passage. But it's, it's not kind of like the shock of like, "I don't know what you're talking about." It's more, it's more this idea of, again, I think those being brought forward at the final judgment, and it's almost as if Jesus is saying, "You are coming into this kingdom- Because, or you are being, uh, allowed, so to speak, to come into my presence in the fullness because you did all those things. And their surprise is almost as to say, "Well, why would those things bring me into the fullness if I've, in fact, have inherited it because you've called me your own?" Does that make sense? Like, I think it's- Yeah ... there's a little bit gone there- Yeah ... that's not just they're kind of like, "Oh, this slipped my mind," or, uh, "It came so easy to me that I didn't even know I was doing it." I think it was more about the g- we should just get to the least of these then, right? Like, what does it mean- Yeah that they did these to the least of these, and how does that surprise fit into that?  [00:46:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:46:20] Least Of These Explained [00:46:20] Tony Arsenal: The other element of this that I think is super important for us to cover in the 10 minutes or so we have left. Um, this phrase, "the least of these," right? Yes. And, and this, this can really cause this passage to be misunderstood  Um, I wanna s- loud and clear, uh, taking care of the poor in our society, you know, mercy ministries outside of the church, those things are all good, and I think scripture makes an argument that we should be engaged in those, both individually and also that the church has an obligation to, um, to meet some practical needs of those who are destitute around it. Um, but that's not what this passage is saying, right? Right. So when we look at the phrase "the least" first, first thing that, that comes off here, right, in verse 40 where this phrase first appears, "Truly I say to you, as you did it to the least of these, my brothers, you did it to me." Right? This is not a general statement. The least of these are not, like, the lowest and meekest and poorest of the world. The least of these my brothers referring to those who belong to Christ. Right. Those who are related to me. And, and I actually think that that, that is probably, like, the hallmark of passage. Beyond, um, what we've talked about already of just sort of like not being about works righteousness, this is really about being a part of the church, right? They're marked by the fact that they have inherited this kingdom which was prepared for them before the foundation of the world. They're marked by the fact that, uh, they are the people of this king, so much so that the other people aren't e- the word king can't even appear in association with these other people. And this last part, they're marked by the way they have treated those in whom they are with c- in, in community with, right? They're marked by the way they have treated those who are related to the king by blood, who are adopted, who are married to the king, who are in, in the family of the king, his brothers. [00:48:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Okay.  [00:48:18] Tony Arsenal: So this is painting a picture of kind of what we see, right? W- we see in, uh, Galatians, right? Um, "Do, do good to all people, especially the household of faith." Mm-hmm. Right? Uh, our own tagline, "Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood," right? That's, that's a statement of like, yes, you're supposed to be kind to all people, but you're especially supposed to be kind and be committed to and taking care of those who are in the household of faith, who are in the church. That is what this passage is about. That is what marks those people who belong to the king. The sheep are part of the sh- part of the sheep because they're in that same flock, because they- Right ... are ontologically, they've been made new and they've been renewed into this new creation as sheep. Um, that's what this passage is getting at. And then the people who, uh, who are not a part of that, they, they have not done anything with the church. They're not associated with the church. They didn't take care of the church. They didn't, they didn't feed the church. They didn't do anything with that. And this, this again, like, think about, like, Acts chapter, you know, when, when, um, when Paul is, when Saul is called by Christ, right? "When did I persecute you?" "Well, you, why are you persecuting me, Saul? Well, you persecuted my people." So this, this passage ties a lot of those same s- same threads together- Yeah ... in a way that I think presents this really cohesive picture of what it is that's going on. This is not works righteousness. Right. [00:49:37] Serving Christ In Church [00:49:37] Tony Arsenal: This is an assessment of the fact that you are, in fact, a m- a member of the people of God, that you have been engrafted into Christ and have become a part of his body. And just as he is our head, we are his body. The people who are cast out, the reason he never knew them is 'cause they've never been engrafted into him. [00:49:55] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Sometimes this does, I think, get read and defined as, like, the all the poor and suffering writ large, which is helpful, but I don't think, like, the dominant view here, at least in my perspective. And you, and you tell me otherwise. Yeah. Because, uh, on this view, of course, like, Christ does identify with all who suffer, and that maybe mercy to any sufferer is mercy to him. I think that could be partly correct, part reflection and application here. However, the stronger view, I think, e- like, even historically, is that- Really we're talking about, especially when we get to, like, visiting those in prison, the, the persecuted or itinerant Christian missionary. When we're talking about the imprisonment and persecution language is, that especially suits believers suffering for the gospel's sake, not merely the poor in general. Now, is, are there ways for us as Christians to embody the gospel and to be a witness for Christ by going out and performing acts of social justice? I would say yes, if you connect those items explicitly to the gospel. That is, that you make it clear your emphasis, genesis, your volition comes through this message of who Christ is. Otherwise, there's plenty of institutions doing very good things, and I don't necessarily, what's in view here is just that. It's more of, like, the synthesis like you're saying, this idea that we're talking about brothers and sisters, and so it's specifically fellow believers. The principle that Christ identifies with the suffering members of his body, it has, like, a legitimate and broader pastoral application to mercy toward all in need, even if I think, like, the text precise referent is more narrow here. And that is what I believe, that you're right. It's a bit like I always get a little fired up when people quote from Peter and they're like, you know, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock." And they use this as this idea of like, "Well, see? Jesus is just, he's out there, he's knocking." Somebody's gotta- Yeah knock harder, but, you know, i- he's knocking on everybody's door, and the unbeliever has to... There's, there's no... You know, like that old image, like there's no doorknob on the outside. He can't come in and open the door. Yeah. And you wanna say, it's Peter writing to the church. Yeah. That's who Christ's addressing there. So, like, I think even here we gotta get it straight. Like, who God is after here is he's talking about those, like you said, whom he's restored and redeemed, whom he's signed, sealed, and delivered. And so what he's saying here is, you really need to be about caring for those who are part of the body, especially those in need who are suffering, but all of those who are the least of these, that is, the least in the representation of me as part of the body of Christ. And we all from time to time are part of that group if we're in the body of Christ, and so we desperately need each other. And this is where I think it also starts to make sense how when if we're abiding in Christ, and therefore we are loving him and loving others as ourselves, then we might find it to be a little nonsensical then to stack up all of those things because that's what family does. And so, like how many times... It would be i- it's like it would be odd to be... I, I mean, maybe people do this, but it's certainly not to their benefit or, or real credit. When if you were to just go around your house and start putting everybody on blast saying, "Well, I do this, and I take out the trash, and, um, you're my child, and I give you a bath every night." And you'd be like, no, that, that's exactly what you are intended to do. In fact, when you forsake those responsibilities, it's not as if like you take a little earnings off your, your credits there. What you do is you forsake your very identity. And so here I think what we find coming together is this idea that the least of these definitely represents those in need predominantly in the body of Christ. Could that extend kind of in a centrifugal force kind of way outside of that? Yes, but it's not the center of this, and I think we have to be careful not to get that twisted up.  [00:53:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, the other, and this is the last little, uh, linguistic quirk that I'll comment on, um, that I think also helps to sort of like frame what's going on here. Um, like I said earlier, the, the righteous are sort of like, uh ... The, the righteous king tells them what he, what they did, right? He says, "Well, I was a stranger. You welcomed me. I was naked. You clothed me." Right. And they say, "Well, when did we do these things, Lord?" The, the, the wicked use a different phrase in here that I think is really interesting, and I think also, um, should key us into something, right? Every word is inspired and profitable, and while I think you can go a little bit too far sometimes building like entire doctrines off of one word or one verb tense, there are, there's a reality that sometimes a particular word is used to signal something. And it says here, verse 44, "Then they will also answer saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick, in prison, and did not minister to you?'" That's the ESV. That word minister is diakono, right, which is where we get the word deacon. W- the word w- might be easier to translate here as when did we see these things? When did we see you doing these things or lacking these things and not serve you?  [00:54:52] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:54:53] Tony Arsenal: And the answer he gives basically is like, "You've never served me." Like- Right. Right ... that, that's the final, the final statement here is like, "You've, you've never served me." It, it's not a- as s- you know, simple as like, "Depart from me. I never knew you." It's, it's also like, "Depart from me. You never served me. You ne- you were never my people. You never, you don't inherit this kingdom. You never were and never will be inheritors of this kingdom." Um, and, and it's almost like in that very phrase, again, like there's a element of attempting to self-justify. You're like, "Well, when didn't we serve you? When didn't we serve you, Lord?" Right. And he's like, "Well, never.  [00:55:29] Assurance Not Merit Scale [00:55:29] Tony Arsenal: You never served me." And I think that's where we can really, um, where we can really start to draw some assurance from this passage here is, um- If this was a works righteousness... This is where I get, um, I think works righteousness is just intrinsically incoherent, right? When we're talking about a merit scale, it's not typically the case that merit has a firm binary distinction, right? Um, you, you can't earn partial heaven. You can't earn- Right ... partial hell. Like, either you're, you know, in a works righteousness situation. But we would expect to be able to, right? This is why, like, the doctrine of purgatory, uh, is intuitive in a works righteousness scenario, because if your, if your suitableness for heaven is based on your work and your merit and your sanctification, then it makes sense that for people who have done enough to get out of hell, that they maybe haven't done enough to get into heaven, and so they need to fi- Right they need to finish that process somewhere. That's where purgatory comes from. But apart from that, like again, like that's a consistent, that's a consistent position if you believe in some form of works righteousness. Apart from that, though, like merit is merit, and if I've earned, if I've done some, then I should be rewarded for some. Like, those people who wanna say, like, "Well, you know, the Bible says that the Lord will reward us according to our works," well- Those same people would deny, at least on some level, would deny something like total depravity, um, on some level. And so yeah, like everybody does some good things, everybody does some bad things. No one is as evil as they could be, right? Right. So the people who are not, uh, 100% evil, who are totally wicked, they've got some level of good works to show for themselves. So where's the reward for that? Well, the answer here, the reason that this can give us, um, some assurance is that it's not based on a level of merit, right? We don't have to look at it and go, "Have I fed the poor enough? Have I visited the sick enough?" That's right. "I've never visited someone in prison. I must really be in trouble," right? I, have I, have I given thirsty people enough water? I don't have to ask those questions. I have to ask if I'm the kind of person who takes care of my brothers and sisters in Christ. Do I do... A- and not perfectly, but am I marked, am I marked and known for someone who cares for the Body of Christ, who cares for those, who honors everyone, but especially loves the brotherhood? Am I marked by some- as someone who does good to all people, and especially the household of faith? Um, I, I, I, I wanna be careful how I say this, 'cause I don't wanna be pompous and arrogant, but as a Christian, yes, I have been marked by that. That is, that is my identity, and I, I strive for that. Um, but I don't have to hit some arbitrary and undefined, like, goalpost to be able to say I've cleared the threshold and I've done enough. That's, like we said last week- Right ... that's the Mormon perspective, right? Yes. God provides grace after you've done all that you can do. Well, no, God just provides grace. Like, that's- Amen ... God provides grace. Now do all that you can do.  [00:58:32] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:58:33] Tony Arsenal: That's, that's the Christian, uh, way to look at things. God provides grace. He's prepared a kingdom for us in advance. Therefore, go and take care of the poor, take care of the other Christians, take care of the brothers in Christ, right? He has prepared good works in advance for us to walk in. That's Ephesians 2. Right. This is, this is not some sort of measurement of whether or not you're in the kingdom. It's a description of what those who are in the kingdom look like and how they behave.  [00:59:01] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:59:02] Ordinary Mercy In Practice [00:59:02] Jesse Schwamb: It should radically, I think, like dignify the church's care for its most weakest, for its most obscure, for maybe the most inconvenient members. And I'm talking about, you know, the elderly widow, the im- the imprisoned brother, the refugee believer, the shut-in. Yeah. And I think, like Christ says basically, in effect, "However you're treating them, you are treating me." Yeah. And so we need to frequently draw upon this duty of hospitality and prison visitation, like in that context, as marks of a healthy congregation. It's, it's not like optional works of supererogation for like the especially devout. Like this is under all of our purview, and I like what you said there. Like we should take a little bit of stock and think about how it is w- the people that we know in our congregations, our local places of worship, there's somebody there who is probably hurting and suffering more than you are. What can be done? Even if that's a text message letting them know that you actually are praying for them, that you commit yourselves to prayer, sitting with them, listening to them, sending a card or a word of encouragement to them. There's... Or maybe that is like, you know, I've been so blessed recently as my wife has convalesced from surgery, the number of people who just wanna bring food to you, and that is such a beautiful thing. I'm, I'm gonna be honest. And we felt very cared for and loved in a way that was definitely profound. Like, that taking, trying to take care of all of our needs, both physical and spiritual otherwise, it takes some things away from us in our moment of our great weakness. And so I think that's really what Christ is after here. And I presume on the day of judgment, from the people that I know, that, you know, that Jesus will say to, to Beth, like, uh, you know, "You, you brought food for those who are really in need." And she'll be like, "When? Who?" And she'll be like, "Well, when Jen Schwam was in her darkest hour of recovering," um, "when you brought the meal." Uh, uh, that was doing for the least of these. That was doing the same thing onto me. And so I think that's really more what we have in view here. I, I think, like you're saying, Tony, we can get paralyzed into thinking, "Well, like I haven't been in like many maximum security prisons to like go in and preach the gospel and sit down with hard offenders and really hash out what forgiveness looks like." And I'm not entirely sure that's what's in view here. I think really it's these more practical, maybe boring, maybe mundane, but certainly costly exercises of practical love and faith that should be the marks of who we are. And I think it's okay to take stock and kind of in the same way that we might say test to see whether or not you were actually in the faith, and these things I think are good markers. They should at least give us pause to consider.  [01:01:39] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, yeah.  [01:01:40] Wrap Up And Next Series [01:01:40] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, this has been a, I think, a great discussion these past, uh, weeks here on this passage, and I know that I'm looking at it differently than I, I have in the past. So- Me too ... I really appreciate, um, the fact that this podcast exists and that people listen to it, 'cause it forces me- to actually, like, spend time- Yeah ... talking through, uh, what, what the scriptures say and really thinking about them. Um, it holds me accountable, 'cause my words go out there and, and they're out there. Yeah, me too. So I have to be thoughtful and careful about what I say. And I think it's, it's worth, um, it's worth investing this kind of time in the scriptures, obviously. So I, I'm just really am enjoying this parable series. It's crazy to think that we're s- we're sort of coming up to the end of it. Um, this is the last, like, parable chunk in Matthew, and there's, there's not a lot of parables in the other gospels that have not been covered in one form or another, um, you know, through the Matthew portion of the parables. So we're coming out of this, uh, probably quicker than it feels like. So I'm excited to keep going. We're gonna pop into the parables in the other gospels, the, the sort of smattering that exists that aren't attested here in Matthew. Uh, we're gonna probably dip into some of the I am sayings in, in, um, John, which function a little bit differently, but still kind of in the same vein of Christ teaching, and I think it's gonna be a good time. So I, I'm not gonna go through again. We're not gonna do all the housekeeping. You guys know where to find us on Telegram, Patreon. You know what all that stuff is. So, um, please do, uh, please do tune in, tune in. Please tune in next time. Tune in. Same Brotherhood channel, same Brotherhood time. Uh, the time is whenever you listen to this. It's a podcast, not a TV show. But, uh, Jesse, until whenever that happens to be, honor everyone.  [01:03:13] Jesse Schwamb: Love the Brotherhood. 
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  Sovereign Election in Matthew 25: The Kingdom Was Prepared Before Your Works 17.07.2026 1h 1min

  In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb bring their extended series on the parables of Matthew to a powerful climax with the passage most listeners have been waiting for: the Sheep and the Goats (Matthew 25:31–46). Far from a checklist of works required for salvation, this text is unpacked as the master parable of Christ's entire parabolic ministry — a sovereign declaration of divine election, not a merit-based audit of individual performance. Tony and Jesse explore why this passage has been chronically misread as a call to works righteousness, why the language of inheritance and predestination is front and center, and how a Reformed reading liberates rather than burdens the conscience. Along the way, they weigh in on Herman Bavinck's prescient warning about media distraction, and Jesse recommends a Puritan gem on anxiety worth picking up immediately. Key Takeaways The Sheep and Goats is best understood as a parable, or at minimum parable-adjacent. The Greek construction in verse 31 mirrors the same comparative language Christ uses throughout his parabolic ministry, placing this text firmly within that tradition rather than outside it. The kingdom was prepared before any works were done — this is election language. The phrase "inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (v. 34) is not a reward for performance; it is the language of sovereign predestination preceding all human action. The works of the sheep are diagnostic, not causative. What the righteous did reveals who they already were — sheep — rather than being the mechanism by which they became sheep. The beak doesn't make the bird. Both groups are surprised, and that surprise is the parabolic punchline. Neither the sheep nor the goats anticipated the verdict they received, which undermines any reading that frames this text as an encouragement to accumulate saving merit. This passage is a recapitulation of the wheat and tares parable. Sheep and goats co-mingled until the moment of final separation, just as wheat and tares grow together until the harvest — the judgment reveals what was always true. Any theology that requires a human contribution to activate or complete salvation misreads this text.Whether Roman Catholic, Arminian, or Mormon in flavor, every view that makes God's preparation of the kingdom contingent on foreseen human merit fundamentally inverts the logic of the passage. The scope of judgment — "all nations" (ta ethnos) — would have been scandalous to first-century Jewish ears. This language deliberately expands the kingdom beyond ethnic Israel, fulfilling the Abrahamic covenant promise and confounding the assumptions of the religious elite. Key Concepts The Kingdom Prepared Before Your Works: Sovereign Election, Not Merit When the King says to those on his right, "Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matthew 25:34), the theological weight of that single sentence is staggering. The kingdom was not prepared in response to anything the sheep did. It was prepared before time, before works, before choice — which means the works that follow in the passage cannot be the grounds of that inheritance. Only a Calvinistic understanding of election can sustain this logic without remainder. Arminian views require God to foresee a qualifying human response; Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox views require some degree of meritorious participation; even certain Lutheran frameworks lean on non-resistance to grace. Reformed theology alone places the entire cause within God's sovereign, unconditional decree — and this passage, read plainly, says exactly that. Works as Evidence, Not Ground: The Diagnostic Function of This Parable The great pastoral error in preaching this passage is treating it as a performance rubric — a list of charitable acts that, if completed, qualify a person for eternal life. But Christ does not separate the sheep from the goats because of what they did or failed to do. He separates them, and then describes the activity that characterized each group. The works are revelatory. They surface what was already true of each person's nature, just as a bird's beak reveals its species rather than constituting it. This reframing is liberating precisely because it means assurance does not rest on tallying acts of charity. It rests on the sovereign act of a Father who prepared a kingdom and the regenerating work of the Spirit who produces, in those He has claimed, a life that looks like the one described here. "All Nations": The Scandal of an Ethnically Inclusive Kingdom The Greek phrase ta ethnē — translated "all nations" in most English Bibles — would have landed very differently on first-century Jewish ears, particularly those of the Pharisees and Sadducees who comprised a significant portion of Christ's audience throughout Matthew 24–25. To them, ta ethnē meant the Gentiles, the peoples out there, those outside the covenant. The implicit effect of Christ's language is to place every people group — including Israel — within a single undifferentiated mass standing before his throne, with no ethnic group receiving preferential standing at the bar of judgment. This is entirely consistent with the Abrahamic promise of blessing to all families of the earth (Genesis 12:3), the vision of Psalm 2, and the missionary thrust of the Great Commission. The scandal is not incidental — it is the point. The kingdom Christ is ushering in is not the ethnic-nationalist kingdom the religious establishment expected. Memorable Quotes The kingdom of heaven was prepared for those whom Christ has elected before the foundation of the world, and it was the preparation of that kingdom that brought you through this such that you did the good works that you did... That is caused by the fact that God prepared a kingdom for you in advance, not that you somehow caused this kingdom to be prepared for you. - Tony It's not the beak that makes it the sparrow, it's the sparrow that makes it the kind of beak it is. That's the kind of classification we're talking about in this parable. - Tony The best freedom is the one that turns over all things to God and takes him at his word when he says, 'In love you were predestined to inherit this as sons and daughters of the kingdom,' so that he does all the work, because we do not want to have any of that work our own. - Jesse Full Transcript [00:01:11] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 498 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse  [00:01:19] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brother.  [00:01:24] Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. They said it couldn't be done. They said we couldn't come back. We wouldn't come back and continue in Matthew 25. But here we are, and we're ending this chapter in this whole section about sheep and goats. Everybody was clamoring for it. Everybody wanted to know, what about the sheep and the goats? And I think the last time we all chatted together, we prefaced it by saying it's parable adjacent. Or let's just say- Yes ... we just stacked up these three other parables, lots of things going on, and then Jesus resolves this or brings all these parables to a culmination by speaking about the end times, the end of all things, and the sheep and the goats. Yeah. And so we gotta go there  [00:02:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I'm stoked.  [00:02:07] What Counts Parable [00:02:07] Tony Arsenal: And y- you know, I, I was talking with a brother at, um, at church yesterday on the Lord's day, and he was asking how the podcast's going and what we're doing. And, you know, I was kind of thinking, like, I was talking about the parables and how we're kind of moving forward, and we were gonna do some of the I am sayings in John. And, and I was thinking, like, what is a parable anyways? And who decides what a parable is and what a parable isn't? Right. Um, some of the parables Christ calls a parable, others he doesn't. Uh, we'll probably talk a little bit about that when we get to, uh, some of the back half of Luke. But this, this episode I think is gonna be really, really the payoff and really the culmination of not just these, like, this trio of or trilogy of parables that we've talked about, but I think really, like, the payout of all of the parables in Matthew. It's really, like, the summary of all of Christ's parabolic teachings. So it's, it's a good place for us to round out Matthew, and then we'll, we'll dip into the parables in the other gospels, probably have a couple more months of, of, uh, parable talk before we move on to the next thing. But, uh, it's been great, and I'm super, super stoked for this. This is one of my favorite passages, actually, and there's so much to dig into. I, I, I'm just gonna say now, we probably won't make it through the whole thing- Right ... uh, because there's a lot there. But we'll see. We'll see how we do. Maybe Jesse and I will be super efficient tonight, uh, but we usually aren't, so. [00:03:27] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's never happened. We, we take it low and slow. Not only that- ... it was reminding me as you spoke about that kind of proverb generally of if you wanna go build a wall, you assess what you need, how many stones, and then you go gather those stones. Yeah. You should double it, or if you're gonna go out and fight an army, take stock of that army. That's basically what we do, but in reverse. Anytime, like, you just... I just heard you say- ... like, "It'll probably take us a couple more months," you should double that. That's probably how long- Yeah ... it's actually gonna take us.  [00:03:50] Faith Works Assurance [00:03:50] Jesse Schwamb: Even in this- Yeah ... conversation, I think we're gonna get stuck in the best way possible speaking about things like faith, works, and assurance because there's a lot of language here- Yeah that could seem on the surface to sit in this tension with justification by faith alone. And I think the key to resolving all that tension, as I hopefully think we'll see, lies in the readings of works as the evidence of living faith rather than its ground, and I think that's what- Yes ... Christ is leading us through all of these parables, actually, whether it goes back. And you should listen to all those episodes. In fact, I gotta ask. Th- I mean, this brother you were talking to, it just strikes me as that question had already be answered for him if you were listening to the podcast. So-  [00:04:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I don't think he does. No, I don't think he does- ... listen to the podcast. Uh, he knows that I do the podcast, and he's very gracious to ask me about it. Tom. And I think he's probably listened to the podcast before. Got it. Um, and he's, he's just a very kind, gracious brother who, who is concerned and wants to know what I'm doing. And, um, he has, he has his own sort of, like, production stuff that he does that he enjoys that I'm, I'm not super keyed into. But, uh, it was just nice. But, but it did get me thinking, like, I was trying to explain to him where we were in the progress of the parables, and I was like, "I can't really... I don't really know," because, like, it's hard to even understand and fully... There's no, like, full comprehensive universal list of what is a parable- Right ... and what's not. And I think what we've found as we've been going through this is sometimes, sometimes you come up against a portion of a text that is often taught sort of separate from the, the rest of it. Parables get taught discreet from other parables. But then you have these sort of, like, intervening texts, or this one's kind of a summary text, that's so integrated to what the parable means you really can't do a series on these parables without also treating this text. Which is gonna be interesting, 'cause I've never, I've never encountered somebody who really roots this teaching here of Christ in the context of the parables, despite its proximity. So it'll be fun. We're gonna figure it out in real time, and, and it'll be good.  [00:05:47] Jesse Schwamb: No, it's gonna be fun.  [00:05:48] Deny Doomscrolling Bavinck [00:05:48] Jesse Schwamb: And speaking of fun, we're so glad that you're listening, and we know that you're waiting with bated breath to hear about affirmations or denials. It's of course that part of the conversation where we either affirm with something that we think is fantastic, maybe by way of recommendation, or conversely, we deny against something that isn't that great. So Tony, as is our custom in the liturgy of the Reformed Brotherhood podcast, I ask you once again, are you affirming with or deny against? [00:06:15] Tony Arsenal: I am denying against something, and I'm gonna do that by affirming a Herman Bavinck quote. Uh, so I'm gonna read it for you. This, uh... Some of the guys in the Facebook group have put... or the Facebook group, the Telegram chat, have put together a, uh, like, a reading group to work through Bavinck's, uh, Wonderful Works of God, which is great, and I'm loving it. I haven't been able to participate in the conversation as much as I would like to, but just being part of a reading group, uh, sort of keeps you on schedule, which is great. So I've been reading through Wonderful Works of God, and on the Kindle edition, on page 34, uh, which I think is still the, I think is still the, uh, introduction, he says, quote, "The reading of daily and weekly newspapers, of magazines and brochures, devours our every blink. There's a lack of desire and opportunity for the investigation of scripture and the study of old theological works," end quote. And when I read that, it just really struck me as like- If that was true like 70 years ago, 80 years ago when Bavinck was writing this, right? And all there was was hard, hard copy media. There was no, uh, there was no digital media. There was radio, but there wasn't a lot of programming. Uh, I don't think that there was much in the way of television broadcasting. If there was, it was, it was very, very limited and very rudimentary. Um, even then he was saying the daily news cycle and all of this extra stuff that is out there is consuming our, quote, "Every blink," which I thought was a really interesting phrase. Um, it's basically like it's so ingrained in us, we're so invested and obsessed with the news cycle. Uh, or you might translate that to like to our Twitter feed or our Facebook feed or our Instagram reels or whatever it might be, and dare I say it, the podcasts we listen to.  [00:08:05] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:08:05] Tony Arsenal: Um, that we don't save time for scripture and other theological works. And I think it's funny too is that the, the eternal, uh, the eternal contemporary statement of the Reformed world is like we don't read enough old theological works. Even Bavinck, who I'm reading as one of the old... I mean, not like super old, but like one of the old theological works, is saying, "Hey, we don't read enough old theological works." So I'm denying this sort of like obsession we have with the daily news cycle and with constantly being up to date and like constantly consuming all of that. Um, we've talked about how like our modern global news cycle sort of, uh, is built around the deception that we can be sort of pseudo omnipotent and know all things about everything. And, um- There's a lot of work that's been done to show that, like, the world's not really that much, not that much more of a violent place than it was 100 years ago. We just know a lot more about what's going on- Right ... in other parts of the world. And there's pros and cons to that. But I think the main con is, like, we, we feel suddenly that we have to be, you know, deeply involved in the goings on of a church on the other side of the country that we never would've even known existed otherwise. It- there's just a, there's a sense of omnipotence and omnipresence that's just not becoming for the creature that I think we try to take on. So Bavinck knew it. Uh, we've talked about it. Lots and lots of people have talked about it. This isn't new. I'm not, I'm not e- engineering anything new on this. But that quote really struck me when I was reading. I was like, "Dang, man, he, he got it right 100 years ago or, or 80 years ago, and we're still struggling with it." And I think probably, like, if you go back and you look at the, I don't know, more occasional writings of people like Martin Luther and John Calvin, um, as they're interacting with, like, people in the Reformed community or the Protestant community, I bet you would find statements like this too about how, like, we really spend a lot of time reading, like, silly things and not spending- Right our time studying the scripture or studying, um, theological works. So that's my denial. I'm sticking to it, and if that means you feel like you need to turn this podcast off and go read some John Calvin or some Herman Bavinck, then by all means. Uh, I think you're probably going to be edified by what we have to talk about. But, uh, th- the Bible's better, so if you gotta go do it, if you only got- That's true ... an hour today to study scripture or listen to this podcast, please go study scripture. Yeah. Uh, hopefully we can do a little bit of both with this podcast. But Herman Bavinck said it best. Our every blink is consumed with pamphlets and newspapers and it just is- It's true it's pretty silly.  [00:10:41] Jesse Schwamb: It's true.  [00:10:42] Meme Detour Reading Groups [00:10:42] Jesse Schwamb: I gotta take us all the way back to where you started there, and I'm going to betray, to nobody's surprise, my really strong naivete when it comes- ... to social media, and memes in particular. But this is what occurred to me, and I'm gonna try it. This is, like, what classically makes really good podcasting. Let me try to describe a meme to you that I'm not even sure I actually understand or know. So this will be great. I think, you tell me, Tony, 'cause you may have seen this. It's an old meme too, so I'm not even, like, on the cutting edge here. I think it's a meme of two panels showing, like, two pictures of Drake. In know one he's kinda, like, pushing away as if to say, like, "Get that outta here," and the other one's like, "Oh yeah, that's the stuff." Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Is that accurate?  [00:11:21] Tony Arsenal: I do. I think you're gonna use it wrong, but yeah.  [00:11:23] Jesse Schwamb: Is that Drake? Okay, all  [00:11:24] Tony Arsenal: right. Yeah, that's, that's the meme.  [00:11:25] Jesse Schwamb: Okay, okay. And usually, if I understand it correctly, it's kind of like a faux juxtaposition of two things, right? Like, okay. So like here, let me try it. Uh, uh, let me just try it on everybody. Here we go. I'm gonna describe to you how I just interpret this based on what you said, 'cause something cracked me up that you said, Tony. If I were gonna make this meme just based on how you opened that up, the first panel would be like Drake pushing away the idea or being like, "That's no good," book club. The second one would be reading group, as in like, like the reading group is like the new cool way of like just kind of... Did I use it properly? Am I close?  [00:11:59] Tony Arsenal: I think the problem with this is that there's like a, there's like an ironic way to use it, and then there's like a more direct way to use it. Mm. Yeah. The direct way would be like some- like Drake's pushing away something that's bad, and he's- Yeah ... like accepting something that's good. That'd be like the direct way. Yes. The more ironic one is where like Drake is pushing away something that's actually pretty, actually pretty good, and he's- Yeah ... accepting the one that's pretty silly. Oh, okay. Um, there's a lot of memes that have that basic format. Never mind. There's one with like Jordi LaForge. I think there's a Michael Scott one. I tried. I tried. But yeah, no, I, I think yours is valid, it's just, I think it's an older usage of the meme. That's like the, that's like the middle English version of that meme. The Shakespearean use of that meme.  [00:12:36] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I'll take that. It's the old English style. I love a good book club or a reading group. A, a reading group just, it does have that sound like maybe somebody in the group has a monocle, or you guys have tea. Either way- Yeah ... I absolutely love it. And yes, what are our beautiful quotes. You kind of hear that general conception recapitulated among like theologians almost in every era. But it does make you think, what would Bavinck say about, like doom scrolling on the smartphone? Like- Yeah ... he's beside himself, right? It would just be beside himself. So I'm with you. I, it, there's gonna be a condemnation in every generation. Maybe I say this with some degree of like chronological snobbery, especially in ours, when it comes to not, like you said, I think kind of like not carving out or not prioritizing time in the scriptures. Yeah. There's not gonna be any excuse of like, "Well, I just didn't have time." Right. Or, "There were too many things to read." It's just, it's not gonna cut it. So I'm with you. I think you and I have talked about this at length, even just like the news media like you and I consume, like just s- set aside social media for a second. Just like how i- how much value is there in a lot of like what we cons- used to consider to be like well-informed reporting? How valuable is that to us? Yeah. And I'm certainly not saying like that everybody should be like unconcerned and uninterested in the world, but I think it's to what degree and what fascination we have with that, and how it fits into our priority as we consume information each day. That's the thing that's tricky, and there's no really-  [00:14:02] Tony Arsenal: Yeah ...  [00:14:02] Jesse Schwamb: good answer except to weigh out with the spiritual discernment- Yeah ... how we ought to consume that stuff. But certainly I think, without question, we need to be prioritizing time in prayer, time in the scriptures. I imagine if we were all doing that with a great deal of attention, that all of the other things would kind of find their way into the right place. Or let's say they would just find their way out of our lives in a significant way- Yeah ... that would remove us from distraction and anxiety, instead bring us back into the providence of God.  [00:14:31] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And I'm not, I'm not gonna be the guy that tells you you can never s- you can never scroll Instagram or TikTok or whatever. Um, I, I think that's a decision that's between you and the Holy Spirit as far as how you spend your time. But I, I do think, um, I think you're right- We are accountable for the decisions we make and how- Right ... we choose to divide up our time. And I- God, I mean, God is the inventor of fun. He's the inventor of leisure, and he is, uh, I think he's pleased and honored when we, we make good use of our time f- for things that are restful and rejuvenating. Um, he doesn't expect us to just slavishly read scripture all day, every day, like every minute. That's not, that's not the biblical expectation. Um, and so I think it's fine if you wanna sit down and watch a fun show, or if you wanna watch some YouTube videos, or listen to a silly podcast, or listen to a serious podcast. Um, but I do, I agree. Like, we, we really need to be thoughtful. And I think where, where Bavinck's quote, uh, is strong is it's not so much about, "Don't read these things." Right. He, he's talking about these things consume our every blink. Like, m- he's treating blink... He's using the word blink as sort of a fill-in for like our, our finite resource of time and attention, and these things have consumed all of them. There's a very strong use of that word consume. Uh, and I, I think that's really the, the point that I'm trying to make is we often allow, either intentionally or unintentionally, we, we just let our time get all sucked up, uh, on things that maybe are good but are not pr- properly proportioned. Um- Like I said, it's, it's fine to spend some time on Twitter and to get into a debate once in a while, or to check in on your friends on Facebook, your old high school, college buddies or whatever, but we can definitely take it too far. So I think it's a good corrective for all of us to at least make a stop and think about how we're spending our time, and whether we are affording the appropriate amount of time to things like scripture, theological study, catechesis of our children, um, family worship, all of those good things. So we don't have to go much more into that. I think the point has been made. Uh, so Jesse, what are you affirming and/or denying tonight?  [00:16:43] Affirm Puritan Anxiety Cure [00:16:43] Jesse Schwamb: Perfect segue, because speaking of reading old things, you know me, I've always got some kind of Puritan work in the rotation, and the one I just finished is the one I'm affirming, which is called Special Providence for Anxious Souls by Obadiah Sedgwick, who I think is kinda... Like, people are sleeping on Sedgwick, you know? Mm-hmm. He's, he's kinda like, he's there in the wings, but we need to take him off the bench. And I came across this book and I thought, "Who doesn't want a title like that in their lives?" Like, we got some anxiety in all of our souls. And I'm affirming this because, uh, hi- his definitions, his writing is, are on point. But here's what I thought. I was embarrassed that I picked this up expecting one thing, and then in typical puritanical fashion, was delivered something else that was far better. And I was thinking about this title as you might see it, like, in your modern bookstore today, whether it's, like, in Barnes & Nobles or at any of the periodicals we were just kind of mentioning or implying that are out there. And I was expecting to get some kind of, I don't know, six or seven things, I mean, that's Puritan style, but six or seven things that would really help you diagnose the psychology, and then going back to the scripture in ways, all, all the ways we'd expect about how God loves us and cares for us, and all those things are true. And yet the only way I could describe how this book ministered to me is, like, how you might go to a physical therapist for some kind of ailment, which I have many as I get older, and have recently been to one. And the ailment I had was, um, basically like tarsal tunnel, which is like carpal tunnel for your foot. And so there was some nerves that were inflamed and causing some pain and some weirdness in my feet. And here's what I do know about physical therapy now that I think the Puritans also do for our souls, and that is the physical therapist gave me this full workup. They prodded me and poked me and rubbed things and made things hurt- And in the course of doing that, they clearly could figure out what was wrong with my foot. And so when he gave me the diagnosis, after, again, rubbing that part and, like, doing one of those things where he's like, you know, they tap on your hard and they're like, "Does that hurt?" I'm like, "Yes, it does hurt." And I presume that's because you know anatomy. And, you know, he's, he's ta- tapping on my ankle and it's causing my foot underneath to hurt. And after all that, you know, I run on a treadmill. He d- takes all this video, and this is what he says to me. He goes, "Yeah, so this is actually pretty straightforward." And I was like, "Great, so what are we talking about? Like exercises, uh, splints, like massage?" He's like, "You have a weak butt." And I was like- "I'm sorry, let's talk about that for a second." And this is what I've learned about physical therapy, is it's rarely about the thing that's actually bothering you or the thing that's hurt, right? It's something- Yeah ... far different. It's something almost seemingly, like, disjointed or removed or divorced from the very thing, maybe even non-contiguous, if only in our minds, maybe even logically. And so what I love about this is the first half of the book is just speaking about the province of God before it even gets into this idea of anxiety. And then the treatment on anxiety and worry is, he goes through, like, six or seven things in particular, are just absolutely glorious. So good that I want you to read it. I don't even want to talk about it. Uh, that, that's my admonishment to you, is that you should just go pick it up. So I'm affirming again that the Puritans in particular do this thing where there's, there's no cheap advice here. It's not even hide advice. It's really good advice, but it's the kind that says, "You have a weak butt" when you're concerned that your ankle- is messed up. Yeah. And that's sometimes what you need to hear. And in my case, after... Let's make this super weirdly spiritual. After doing a bunch of squats, I don't know what the spiritual equivalent is of that. After doing a bunch of squats, my ankle and my foot was so much better. And it, because I had somebody who cared enough for me to go through and actually diagnose the root of it, that was the reason that inevitably there was healing. So I've, this has given me so much to think about, this tiny little treatise. So much to put into practice. It's so rich, so good, so practical, and yet I think you'll find in many ways joyfully unexpected. So I highly affirm to everybody listening, and even those who aren't, Special Providence for Anxious Souls, Obadiah Sedgwick. You'll, you'll love it  [00:20:49] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:20:49] Physical Therapy Spiritual Practice [00:20:49] Tony Arsenal: So two thoughts. Uh, one, uh, I can confirm Jesse has a weak butt, um, flat as a board. So it's probably, probably better after, after doing some squats. Wow. Uh, two- Wow. ... uh, I can say I also am in some physical therapy right now, and I've been a little bit of a slacker. And what I will contribute to the conversation is just like in physical therapy, they can give you all of the exercises- Yeah uh, that you want. If you don't do the work, you're not going to get better. Yeah. And so whether it's Jesse doing squats or me not finding time to stretch and to do some, like, arm exercises with a, with a s- uh, like a TheraBand, uh, the same holds true. And, and maybe to unify our, uh, affir- our denials/affirmations into one mega, mega recommendation, um, the same holds true in that, one, we can take a book like this from, uh, Sedgwick, and we can turn it into the same thing we do with media where we're just... it's just devouring our blinks. Right. And we're just using it as a way to sort of, like, feed our eye hole Get better. You won't improve. Um, and that's actually the same with scripture. Like y-you can- Right ... turn scripture into, uh, into a snack food that you, you don't actually use to be nutritious. Um, I think there's probably more benefit to reading scripture sort of rote and, and almost mechanically than there is to reading anything else. But, um, but at the end of the day, you can also consume your blinks with scripture and not get a lot out of it if all you're doing is passing your eyes over text. So get in there. I think that's great. I haven't read that one. I mean, I think there's... I think there are probably many, I can't think of one off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are many, many Puritan treaties that- treatises that are similar in theme and tone and have the same kind of like spiritual antidote or spiritual medicine, um, prescribed by these guys that is good and wholesome. And again, like, like you're saying, like it's not that complicated. It's not that hard. Right. It just takes- Right ... you just actually have to do the work. Um, it's funny, my physical therapy thing is my, my shoulder has been really ba- really messed up, and I went in, I expected him to give me all these, all these shoulder exercises, and he's like, "Uh Really what you need to do is you fix your neck, uh, 'cause your shoulder is, is being in- injured because you're sleeping- Okay on that side because you're trying to stay off the other side. So, like, you really gotta fix your neck so you can sleep on the other side of your body. And I was like, "So I'm just, like, sleeping wrong?" Like, it's funny, there's a joke, it's like in your 20s you can do anything you want, in your 30s, like, you gotta be a little bit careful, and in your 40s, like, you hurt yourself just sleeping. Right. Just getting out of bed is dangerous.  [00:23:46] Jesse Schwamb: It's  [00:23:46] Tony Arsenal: true.  [00:23:47] Jesse Schwamb: It's true. So. It's a tough world. But  [00:23:48] Tony Arsenal: it's true. I feel like a really old man saying that.  [00:23:51] Read Matthew 25 Aloud [00:23:51] Jesse Schwamb: You know, it strikes me that you're right, of course, that there's so much here we always have to put into practice. There's so much here that we have to trust with God. There's a faith that works. And so I think actually that is the most lovely inroad into this final passage of Matthew, because there's a lot here for us to talk about with all of those things, and to understand it in this proper context. So as you've already set us up, Tony, the best part of our podcast is the scripture, for sure, 100%. So let's go there. So we're in Matthew 25 in case you're just joining us. And for some reason I went into, like, a full radio mode, as if this, like, this is being broadcast live, and you just came into the program. We're in Matthew 25, uh, starting in verse 31, and I'm gonna read until the end of the chapter. There's so much here that of course we're not gonna get to all of it, but in the spirit of literally having the full context of the scripture in front of us, and to hear it all, I think it's important. It w- b- better yet, you should go back and read the entire chapter and then tune in right now. But let me start at verse 31. "But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them one from another as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom which has been prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me something to eat. I was thirsty, and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me in, naked, and you clothed me. I was sick, and you visited me.  [00:25:32] Judgment Scene Read [00:25:32] Jesse Schwamb: I was in prison, and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him saying, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? And when did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and come to you?" And the King will answer and say to them, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of mine, even the least of them, you did it to me." Then he will say to those on his left, "Depart from me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angers-- angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me." Then they will themselves also answer saying, "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not take care of you?" Then he will answer them saying, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me." And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life  [00:26:47] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:26:49] Parable Not Fear [00:26:49] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, it's, it's, um, it's a sobering passage. And just as I think we've seen in a lot of the other parables, um These eschatological parables and these eschatological sayings of Christ, uh, as you kind of alluded to earlier, I, I think they are really, really, um... They are not prone to being misinterpreted. Right. The church has been prone to misinterpreting and misapplying these, um, in a, in a way that's used to make, make the Christian fearful and to, uh, undermine their assurance rather than to call them to action or to accountability.  [00:27:33] Why It's A Parable [00:27:33] Tony Arsenal: Um, and I think a- as I've been reading through this and I've been sort of glancing at the Greek as we're reading, I actually think I'm on... I, I stumbled on much more better ground to treat this as a parable than I even originally thought I did. You know, I, I had this whole lead-up that this isn't technically a parable, but when you read here, when it says, in verse 31, it says, "When the Son of Man comes in glory and the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates- Right ... the sheep from the goats." If you go back to verse 14, when it says, "For it will be like a man," uh, that, that first word of verse 14 in the Greek is the same word as is used when it says, um, uh, "He separates people one from another as a shepherd." That same word is used as there, it's just translated differently because of where it comes in the, um, in the text. So Christ is still making this comparison, so it would be as though he said, um, you know, like the common, most common, at least so far, most common kind of parabolic introduction is like, "The Kingdom of Heaven is like." Um, this is the same basic language he's using here to introduce what the eschaton will be like. Right? The ga- the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them. It says people in the ESV, but will separate them one from another. You could also say the, the nations or the peoples will be gathered before him. Right. He will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep. So the parable here is the s- the shepherd separating the sheep from the goats, this whole process of the separation and this, this, um, frankly, like it's, it feels and smells like a parable, right? It does. This, this, um, figure, this shepherd in the parable or the shepherd in the saying is saying these sort of like parabolic statements. He's using this language that's kind of like shocking punchline statement. Like we've talked about how in parables there's often this sort of unexpected turn of events, or there's this unexpected kind of shocking language, and this whole like twist at the end in both, sort of both s- chunks here, where like the sheep don't really understand, like they didn't really recognize that they were doing sheepy things, and the goats didn't really understand that they were being goats. That's like the parabolic twist or the parabolic punchline here. So the, the kingdom of heaven is like, basically it's like the Son of Man will come in his glory and it will be like this. It will be like a shepherd separating the sheep from the goats. That's the parabolic connection here. Mm-hmm. So I actually think that, that linguistically we're on, we're on pretty solid ground not just to treat this as a summary of all the parables, um- I think of for sure these three parables, but it, it really is like the master parable, and I think probably the master parable that kinda governs and constrains and explains all of the parabolic ministry of Christ. So I'm, I'm stoked for us to really dig into the details a little bit, but I think linguistically we're on super good ground to, to treat this as a parable. I agree. At the very least, it's stronger than just parable adjacent.  [00:30:44] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:30:44] Tony Arsenal: It- but even if we aren't saying it's a parable proper, it's stronger than that. It still is using this kinda comparative ministry, comparative language that Christ has used throughout the parabolic, um, sayings of Christ.  [00:30:57] Jesse Schwamb: The construction seems a little bit less veiled because here we have Jesus implanting himself directly into the account.  [00:31:03] Tony Arsenal: Mm-hmm.  [00:31:04] Shepherd Imagery Stakes [00:31:04] Jesse Schwamb: At the same time, though, he's drawing on all the things you just said he does, especially with this allusion to shepherding, which would've been, of course, common throughout. So it seems to me a lovely bridge to all of the overt parables he's just told, but now he's bringing them all together and placing himself clearly as, like, the interpreter, as the identifier of all the things, as the one to seal up all of the edges, as it were. So it's clear that this is about the end times. All of these were all about the end times and about Jesus' role in them. And so of course here he identifies himself as the eschatological judge just to make it clear. He's the one who sits on his glorious throne, and that's significant, and that's why I think we sometimes feel like, well, this is not a parable because he's, he's being very, like, Christologically certain and direct here. You know, throughout scripture the final judgment is God's prerogative alone, but the Father has committed all that judgment to the Son, and here's Jesus affirming that. And so again, like Reformed theology, in all our conversations we've consistently emphasized that this text is in many ways, like, proof of Christ's full deity and his role as mediatorial king, and he's exercising his office as the judge at his return in glory. And though, like you said, at the same time, here's the cool parable kind of scent or flavor is you get all these nations, every person who has ever lived, not merely Israel or merely the church. And how does Jesus describe this? He goes back into parabolic language. And we got the shepherd imagery that- Yeah is, like, similar to Ezekiel 34 where God himself is judging between the sheep of his flock. And that separation, the shockingness of it, it's immediate, it's binary. There's no third category. There's only two eternal destinies. There's no purgatory, no middle ground, no post-mortem opportunity for repentance. So all that's at stake. And then again, the beauty of the language itself or the setup of the construction of the story as it unfolds is that both groups- Get the same speech with a change in do or do not, but they both ask the same question from, like, wildly different perspectives and standings. And that's the beautiful- Yeah thing to make reconciliation over is what does all this mean then? How is all this established and how is this final judgment come to be such that there are sheep and goats if, in fact, they're both doing the same things theoretically, or they're at least both asking the same questions of, well, when did this ever actually occur? That, that's what's for us to unpack either way.  [00:33:29] All Nations Gathered [00:33:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and b- before we jump into, um, into the parable itself and start to unpack that, the other element that I think is worth, uh, and this just came to me so hopefully I'm not on too far of a, of a limb here. But the other element that I think is worth at least commenting on, um, we've, we've remarked, especially in these last three eschatological, um, parables, how much these are directed at the religious leaders, right? Right. The, the, the people are, um, the, the- the parables are told, um, in the context and sort of following up on these, this real directed, um, assault against the religious leaders who thought they were the ones, right? They're the ones that have a claim to the Kingdom of Heaven, they're the ones that, um, are the, you know, they're the ones that think they're doing the right thing, they're the ones that are ushering in God's kingdom. This little phrase here, "gathered all the nations," would also have really stuck in the craw of the religious leaders, right? Because the word for nations that's translated here is the same word that would el- elsewhere get translated as Gentiles, right? And the word people, when it says, "He will separate the people," that, that word people doesn't actually exist in the Greek. So if you translate this very literally, it'd say, "Before him will, will be gathered all nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." Now, I don't wanna go the route of saying, like, this is a parable about, like, which pe- people group will be brought into the kingdom and which won't, and I've read some that go that direction. I don't wanna go there. But this idea that, like, even in the final judgment, the people who are in view here are the Gentiles, right? Right. I think most Jewish, particularly the, the Pharisees and the Sadducees hearing this, would've, would've read this and would've read ta ethnos, and would not have thought nations the way we do. Certainly would not have thought of, like, modern nation states. They might have been thinking maybe, like, people groups in general, but they would be thinking more along the lines of, like, Psalm, Psalm 2, like, "Why do the nations rage?" kind of nations. Why do the Gentiles rage? Why do the peoples plot in vain? They would've been thinking th- this, this, uh, judgment almost, at least on the face of it, almost excludes the Jews entirely when you think about it this way. It's really now sort of, like, zooming out where at the very least, at the minimal least, the Jews are just another people group within this broader judgment of the people group. Right. So again, like, we've seen this theme that Christ is continually expanding the scope of what is considered to be the Kingdom of Heaven to include not just the Jewish people, um, but all nations, all people groups, all Gentiles and Jews alike. And in a very real sense, um, and I wanna be careful how I've said this, I know I've commented this in the past, there's a very real sense of anti-Semitism that is prominent in- reform, quote-unquote reformed circles right now that is just vile and disgusting and sinful, and has no place in any sort of Biblical Christianity. But there is a reality that the Jewish people, broadly speaking, um, rejected the Messiah, at least while he was here on Earth. Um, relatively speaking, very few Jewish people, especially in the Jewish elite, like the leadership class, accepted Christ for who he was while he was here. Many Jews came to faith through the ministry of Peter, uh, and, and even through the ministry of Paul, even though he was an apostle to the Gentiles. So it's not as though it remained the case, but at this point in Christ's ministry, the Jewish people were by and large were rejecting him as Messiah. And so this idea and, and sort of this like final culmination now saying like he gathered all the, all the Gentiles, all of the peoples, all of the nations. In Jewish, in Jewish language and, and when you look in the Old Testament, and even in some of the New Testament literature, the nations were those people out there. So even if we don't translate this as Gentiles, we don't, we don't take that more like restrictive sense, even then it still implies that Christ is talking about people out there, the non-Jewish nations- Right are being gathered before his throne. And so that's not to say, absolutely not to say that the Jewish people, that, that the Jewish people of his day or the, the... This is where it gets tricky too, 'cause like we think about modern Israel and we, we import our understandings of like nation states. That's not what was in view here. The, the idea of a modern nation state was not a concept that existed in the first century. Um, you might have something like city states, but even that is kind of like a little bit ethereal. The idea here is that all people groups, and maybe, maybe we conceptualize Israel now as one of these people groups, the Israeli Jewish people as one of these people groups. All of those people groups, Jews, Gentiles, Scythians, Athenians, Spartans, like, uh, Ethiopians, you know, all of these different people- Right ... groups that are mentioned in the, the New Testament, all of those peoples, all of those nations are gathered before the throne, and then he will separate them one from another in the same way that a shepherd sep- separates the goats. [00:38:35] Group Judgment Assurance [00:38:35] Tony Arsenal: And yes, I think there is an individualistic, um, judgment element, and this is where I think, um... And, and then I'll, I'll pause for a second. This is where I think we can go wrong reading this as a parable about the individual judgment of individuals in the future That's not really what the language here is supporting. This is supporting sort of a broader group-based judgment, and the grouping is there are those who are sheep and there are those who are goats. But it doesn't appear as though Christ is saying like, "I'm evaluating each individual person, and this person is a sheep, this person is a goat." It's, it's a broader picture that, yes, has some implications for individual personal judgment, but when we read too much of that individual personal judgment into this parable that doesn't seem to be there, that's where we start to, like, rob individual Christians of their assurance. We start to say, like, "Did you do enough? Did you feed enough poor people or did you not?" That's not really, not really what's at stake here, I don't think.  [00:39:40] Jesse Schwamb: No, it's definitely not. It's, it's important to remember just the beauty of, like, the consistent theological thread that runs all the way through the Old Testament, and then that we might expect, of course, to be manifest in Christ's teachings, which happen exactly here. So he is going all the way back to that covenantal promise seed through Abraham, single seed, many people groups, many ethnicities. In this way, the gospel is ethnic inclusive. And so it is, why wouldn't he say that in this way to express that this is exactly from all time what God wanted to do is gather all people groups to himself? Which means then by the time we get to the end of this chapter in verse 46, and there is this righteousness that... or the righteous that lead or go into eternal life, then of course we're led to believe here either directly or implicitly that that means that there would be some for whom the Pharisees would find it's, like, anathema to receive that kind of righteousness and eternal life are the ones in fact who are getting it. And so even that is scandalous. So the, the whole thing is very much a setup, and I think it's the confusion again of this is Jesus saying again to the Sadducees, like, "You are confused. You do not know the power of God. You, you search for it everywhere else but do not find it in front of you. It, it's he who speak to you. I am he. You think you search the scriptures, but you do not know." Everywhere it feels like he's saying that, and here also he's saying that again, but it's in the setup. And I'm with you. I think that there would've been a lot here that would've, like, just come right off his lips that would've been like, "Say what?" Uh, that would've been, like, offensive right off- Yeah ... the top.  [00:41:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:41:17] Sovereign Separation [00:41:17] Tony Arsenal: And the other, the other theme that plays out really loud and clear here, um, as we start to dig into this is, um, there's a sovereignty to this separation that is baked into, um, the king's right to decide who to keep and who to cast away. Right. So I think we, we, um, understandably read into this an assessment of the productivity or the profitability or somehow the, like, merit or worth of the sheep as contrasted to the worth of the goats. Um, and we read into it like the sheep have utility and the goats don't, so the goats get cast into the- Right outer darkness. That's not really, that's not really what's going on here, right? In a, in an agrarian society, like sheep and goats both have utility. It's not as though, like, sheep are worthless and goats aren't. There's a reason people have goats. Um, th- the, the issue here is that the king has decided that there are those on his right and there are those on his left, and the ones on his right he's gonna keep, and the ones on his left he's gonna cast away. And, and so, um, there's this sovereign election and determination that precedes the rest of this, right? It's not as though he's ... And this is where the personal, sort of personal assessment part comes in. He doesn't look at a person and go, "All right, you did a g- enough good works to qualify as a sheep, so you go ahead and go over-" Right and be a sheep. And you didn't do quite enough, so you're actually a goat, so you go over and you be a goat." He looks at, he says, "Y- sheep, goat. Goat, sheep." You know, he, he's separating them out, and then he describes what sheep do versus what goats do. And I, I, like I'm even drawing some of this language out. The sheep goats part of this is actually only, like, a verse and a half. He then flips out of this parabolic language to now go back to the sort of strictly predictive eschatological ex- like explanatory language. So this is what it's like when the Son of Man is on, on his kingdom. He separates sheep and goats. We read into, and maybe with some good reason, but we read into Uh, we read into the fact that the sheeps go to one side, the goats go to another. Then we sort of like attribute the characteristics of those who go to his right to sheep, and we attribute the characteristics... And I think we do this the wrong way. How many sermons have you heard where the whole sermon is about how sheep are obedient, and they're, they're affable, and they listen, and they, they, they are sweet and kind, and goats are stubborn, and they, they just wreck everything, and they don't listen, right? And how many s- how many sermons have you heard where they talk about, like, well, sheep and goats really look the same in the Middle Eastern context, and the only way you can tell them apart is what, by what they do? I think there's probably some, uh, benefit to thinking through those elements, but Christ does not make that point in this parable- Mm ... at least not directly, right? He said, "This is the activity. Imagine a man who has sheep and he has goats. He takes the sheep, he puts them on one side. He takes the goats on another side." That's what the separation at the end of the time, at the end of time will be like. Then he goes straight back out of the parable language into saying, "This is how the king will actually make the distinction.  [00:44:29] Predestination Before Works [00:44:29] Tony Arsenal: The ones on his left, or on his right, he will say, 'Come, you're blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.'" Right? This is predestination language, not eschatological judgment language. The sheep were guaranteed a kingdom from before the foundation of the world. Before they did anything bad or didn't do anything good, they were guaranteed a kingdom from before the foundation of the world. Then he says, he explains to them, like the context that, as you said before, that reveals that they were sheep all along. [00:45:02] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:45:02] Tony Arsenal: It shows them that they were already... Man, I just, just made this connection in my head. This is the parable of the wheat and of the tares- Yep ... coming to fruition- Exactly ... at the end of time. Right. Right? The sheep and the goats were allowed to mingle until the time came when they would be separated, just as the wheat and the tares were allowed to grow up until the time when they would be reaped and separated. This is what's going on. The sheep did things that sheep do. Those on the right did the things that the people on the right would do because they were part of God's blessed kingdom all along.  [00:45:34] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:45:35] Tony Arsenal: And then he goes on to explain what the people on the left did not do, not because now they've been put on the left because they didn't do it, but they were shown to have always been a part of that, part of that population. They were always goats because of these things. This shows that they were goats all along, and they did these things or failed to do these things because they were goats all along.  [00:45:58] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:45:59] Works Righteousness Trap [00:45:59] Jesse Schwamb: Let me read another verse. "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children and also our brethren to believe in Christ and to be reconciled to God. For we know that it is by grace that we are saved after all we can do." My guess is everybody was with me- ... sounded kind of okay until that last part. And if you had that, like, as we say, like, that theological muscle memory that just made you flex or bristle there, or you had the Spidey Sense, as you say, Tony, good, because that's from 2 Nephi 25:23 from the Book of Mormon. And here's what I wanna say that's shocking, is if we read this passage of scripture that we're talking about as if there's something there that we need to do that proves that we've done enough and that somehow God will be pleased with that, even at the end of time in some small way, some modicum, then we're actually acting way more like Mormons than we are like Christians. That's just the bottom line. Yeah. Because Mormons, if you ask about this verse, rather than try to qualify that last statement by saying, "Well, that's misunderstood," or, "It's really not after all you can do," because of course it begs the question how do you know that you've done enough? How you don't- you've done all the things and that you're, you're exhausted. Their explanation of this is to double down on it and say, "Well, the context of that verse is following verse 23 actually does emphasize salvation only coming through Christ, but it also encourages continued observance of the law of Moses in order to be reconciled to God." Because that's all they could do until Christ fulfilled the law through his atonement. Even that is nonsense. So all of this to say, we have to be careful with this because I, I think you're right. We're aligning, we're running right up on this, and that is I would submit to you that we just get distracted because we always, of course, want to bring something to the party here. The, the salvation cake. We wanna, I don't know, we wanna make it, we wanna do. But God is doing all the things on our behalf. And so as a result of that, I think this parable is actually, it's about the divine prerogative and the agency of Christ in judgment at the end which belongs to him and him alone, and not about these actions. But we get caught up in the actions and we're missing this thri- divine prerogative. I also think that Christ gives this to us to reverse it on us and to show us that he sets about all things. It is in fact his foreordination and his providence. By grace we have been saved through faith, and that in providence being predestined is an act of his great love. And so this shows the extent of that love because those whom he has chosen himself are asking in disbelief as if to say, "When did I do the good works that you required?" And he said, "Well, you didn't because you could never do them apart from me."  [00:48:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:48:38] Jesse Schwamb: And so really that's the whole point. It's just so easy for us to get it twisted and say, "Well, doesn't it make sense that there are two groups?" Well, certainly there are in this passage. And doesn't it make good sense that because he said they did things or they didn't do things, then I just need to be about doing those things. And I think that is unfortunately the adventure in missing the point in this passage.  [00:48:58] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I, I agree 100%. And it's funny 'cause you were reading that and I was like What translation of J- of First John is it? It sound, I mean, it sounds like, it sounds like something you'd read in First John It sounds okay  [00:49:09] Jesse Schwamb: until  [00:49:10] Tony Arsenal: the end. Yeah. No, I mean, like, it literally sounds like First John until- Yeah ... you get to that last part.  [00:49:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:49:15] Tony Arsenal: And, and I think you're right that, um, we'll, we'll explore this more next week, but what has always struck me about this passage is that the, the p- the, the people on His right, I've gotta stop saying sheep, because that's... I just made the point that that's not really what's going on. The people on His right who are called into the kingdom because it was prepared for them before the foundation, because they were elected unto that kingdom. The people on His right, they're surprised at the fact that they did these things. And it, I, I think the works righteousness way of reading this is like, "You better earn your salvation. You better get at it because if you haven't fed Jesus in disguise, then you just aren't gonna make it. At the end of the day- Mm ... He's gonna say, 'I never knew you.'" And it, whether intentionally or unintentionally, sometimes I think intentionally, it implies that we, uh, that Jesus comes to know us because we've done good works, right? When we say, "If you don't do these things, then Jesus will say, 'I never knew you,'" then what you're saying is Jesus doesn't know you apart from your good works. Right. And what the Bible says, what this passage says, just right on the face of it, is that the Kingdom of Heaven was prepared for those whom Christ has elected before the foundation of the world, or who the Father has elected, who are blessed by the Father before the foundation of the world. Now, obviously the Father had to know those people in some sense-  [00:50:43] Jesse Schwamb: That's  [00:50:43] Tony Arsenal: right ... before the foundation of the world in order for them to be blessed by Him and for Him to prepare a kingdom. So then to come back to the end of it and say, "Well, there are some of those, uh, who the Father never knew because they didn't do enough work," well, the problem is that those who did the good work, the Father knew before they did the good works. They didn't merit the good works. I mean- Right ... it's funny you, you bring up the, the Mormons, and that's certainly true, but, like, you could substitute in, at least on this regard, right? There are meaningful, important differences between the groups I'm about to say and Mormons, that would be the dividing line between those who are possibly saved and those who are y- definitely not saved, right? You could substitute Arminians, who wanna say God looks down the corridor of time, and the reason He prepared a kingdom in advance for them from the foundation of the world is 'cause He saw that they would do these things that would merit salvation, or He saw that they would make the proper decision to receive His grace, right? Or Roman Catholics or Eastern Orthodoxes in a different sense, but similarly who would say like, "Well, yeah, God knows in advance that you're gonna merit salvation, so He prepared- Right ... this kingdom anticipating your merit that you would contribute or your participation or, or whatever." I think in a certain sense, um, you could even apply this to some Lutheran theology, right? Which would say, like, "Well, God prepared this kingdom for you from the foundation of the world because he looked down the corridor of time and he understood that you were not going to resist the grace he gave," right? You were not gonna reject his grace. Um, it really truly only is Reformed theology that can say, "No, God prepared this kingdom in advance for you, and it was the preparation of that kingdom that brought you through this such that you did the good works that you did, such that you made the wise decision to follow Christ that you did. That is caused by the fact that God prepared a kingdom for you in advance, not that you somehow caused this kingdom to be prepared for you." A- and aga- again, again, like, this is dicey. It gets into, like, logical ordering, but fundamentally, a- as far as I can understand it, every competing view besides sort of a Calvinistic understanding of predestination election has to say that in some sense God prepares the kingdom for you as a response to something you have done, or chose- Right to do or chose not to do. The reality is that this passage is saying, "No To those who are on the right. He didn't separate them based on the fact that they did these things. He just said, "You are on the right, and now to those who are on the right, I say to you, come into the kingdom that is blessed. You're blessed by my Father. Come into this kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world." So I think, you know, we're coming up on time here.  [00:53:19] Faith That Works [00:53:19] Tony Arsenal: We will get into what exactly the sheep do, what the sheep look, look like, and what the, the goats look like and what they didn't do. We'll get into that 'cause it's, it's relevant, right? This is, this is in some senses a diagnostic parable more than it is a way to get to heaven parable. It's more about understanding where are you in this? What- Exactly ... what is it that your life reflects? What evidences are you going to bear, uh, that will, uh, will classify you, not cause your classification, right? This is like, uh, when you're trying to identify animals, and you're not... Like, I look at this bird and go, "Oh, it's got a short, stubby beak and it's triangular, so it's a finch," versus like a long, pointed beak being more like a sparrow or something like that. Like, it's not the beak that makes it the sparrow, it's the sparrow that makes it the kind of beak it is. That's the kind of classification we're talking about in this parable.  [00:54:11] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. Again, I'm gonna just pull us all the way back to that outstanding description I gave earlier of that Drake meme because- ... I, I think you could do this two panel by saying one is, the first one would be, like, works righteousness, which by the way wears lots of masks. That's part of the problem is it always wants to slip in. We want it to slip in, honestly. That would be our default position. And the second panel, the one of agreement would be, and welcoming, would be a faith that works.  [00:54:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:54:36] Jesse Schwamb: And those are very different things. But Mormonism, Catholicism, in some ways, like all, all of us have the same root, which is very dangerous, and that is we want to be responsible for some part of our own salvation. We desperately want it. I want it, too, and that's the problem, is what's so scandalous about the gospel is that we entrust everything over to God, that we take Him at His word and His promises, that He does this great work. So when this begins with the word inherit- That language is so overwhelmingly strong because it's describing children who have been brought into a family- Yeah who have no ability to bring themselves into or underneath the lordship of a particular parent because they are children. This is not how childhood works. This is not how raising kids, having kids born into a family works. So it's not wages earned. And I think we'll probably have so much more to say about that, but that, that is a critical point, and we ought to be very careful of anything that slips in some kind of workedness, something that we do, so that even makes us feel better to say, like, what was mostly God, but here I am. Even these kinds of things, and we can be careful with our language, where we say we want to come before the Lord with, you know, raise ourselves to the place of the deserving poor or come with open or empty hands to receive him. E- even all of this, all the power that we have ourselves is a gift from God. That power ultimately is his power manifest in us, not our power on display. And of course, that is... There's also another version of this that I've heard kind of promulgated where it's very Roman Catholic, where it's this idea of, well, if, I'm not saying that God doesn't have a play, a part to play, but what if what we need is just to get ourselves into a place where God can infuse us with that grace or that good work? [00:56:15] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:56:16] Jesse Schwamb: And then we see that carried out. That too, loved ones, is a, a long adventure in missing the point. The best freedom is the one that turns over all things to God and takes him at his word when he says, "In love you were predestined to inherit this as sons and daughters of the kingdom," so that he does all the work, because we do not want to have any of that work our own. [00:56:39] Courtroom Mercy Gospel [00:56:39] Jesse Schwamb: When it comes to- Yeah ... actually being able... In other words, you do not wanna stand in this eschatological judgment and try, if, if you could, to say, "No, I did enough." Because God has two courtrooms. One is the judicial one, and one is one of mercy. And in, in the courtroom of justice, uh, we are all disgusting before Him, as it were. We all deserve the punishment that is due us. That, that is the courtroom you must walk, except for and by the mercy of Christ, whom God can look on His Son, whom with He is well pleased, and say through that passive and active obedience that it has been paid in full. All the things have been done. All the obedience has been taken care of. And so you're not just granted amnesty, but you're given the full- Yeah ... and righteous account of Christ. That is what it means then to pass as the righteous one into eternal life. So-  [00:57:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah ...  [00:57:26] Jesse Schwamb: there's so much here. I'm totally with you, Tony. I was just speaking with a dear brother a couple weeks ago at the end of a service on the Lord's Day, and we somehow got to this topic, and we were speaking, of course, in these grand terms as Christians do when they get excited about trying to explain the gospel. And we were speaking about this vast chasm and how, again, God does all the things. And we were kind of remarking, like, how, how funny it would be and how true it is of all of our natures that if you would imagine for some reason in this thought experiment that that sin was, as it's been often portrayed, this grand chasm between two points, and God had built this bridge spanning some distance, some immeasurable, incredible distance, and let's say, like, the last four feet were just unbridged. If it were like that and we came to that edge and we said, "I jumped across," guess what we would boast in? The last four feet, right? And not everything- Right ... else that God had done. So He takes this away from us- Yeah ... in His kindness, because what is replaced in the goodness of Him removing everything from us and setting us in the low place is to have the humility to come before Him and to realize that in our emptiness He gives us all the things, and He gives it to us regardless of whether or not we're capable or willing or even able to receive them. He gives it to us so that we might inherit as sons and daughters eternal life. So I hope that in- instead of really binding Christians up in an individualistic way, that our conversations in the next couple weeks as we go through this will really bring about a lot of freedom, because it's, it's for freedom that Christ has set us free. And there's a lot of freedom I see in this passage.  [00:59:00] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:59:01] Wrap Up Next Week [00:59:01] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, I know normally we do a bunch of, like, housekeeping announcements and tell you- No housekeeping ... join the Telegram chat and tell us- You guys know ... support us on Patreon and all that fun stuff. Yeah. You guys know all the things, and I'm sure we'll talk about it again. Uh, I, I just wanna round this out. Uh, um, best podcasters ever. You can tell we're t- really trying to make a lot of money off this podcast. We're like, "Yeah, we got all this stuff." Da, da. Um, what, what I love about this, uh, this passage is it does reorient us. Um, and, and we'll talk more about specifically how it reorient us- reorients us next week. Um, but it does. This is a parable that is intended, or is a teaching that is intended to take our eyes off of our own, our own works, our own measuring or self-assessment, uh, and really think about, one, what is it that, that is salvation? Like, what is salvation about? How does it come to us? But then also, what should I be doing, right? It's this, it's this dynamic that happens in a lot of the New Testament between the fact that, like, our good works do not, in any sense, merit us salvation. Right. But at the same time, we're expected to do them, and they're important, and they're valuable, and they mark us as Christians. They mark us as God's followers. So we will get into all of that next week. I'm very excited about it. Uh, so please do come back and join us again. Like, you know how to find the Telegram chat. You know how to find all that other stuff. But what we would love for you to do is to come back next week. Thank- Conversation happening in our community about this so Jesse, I'm super excited and until next time, honor everyone  [01:00:46] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood. 
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  The Will of God: Your Sanctification 03.07.2026 48min
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  Praying in the Deep 26.06.2026 52min

  In this episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal walks through Jonah 1–2, focusing on the remarkable prayer Jonah offers from the belly of the great fish. Far from a simple morality tale, the Book of Jonah presents a complex, deeply theological portrait of a disobedient prophet who nonetheless clings to the Lord in his darkest moment. Tony explores the Hebrew literary features that shape how we read Jonah's prayer, the doctrine of divine sovereignty as it operates through human agency, and the rich typological connections between Jonah and the death and resurrection of Christ. Most importantly, the episode grounds Jonah's experience in the Westminster Confession's teaching on sanctification — offering genuine hope to believers who feel buried under besetting sin, assuring them that salvation, from beginning to end, belongs entirely to the Lord. Key Takeaways Jonah is not the hero of his own story — he functions more as an anti-hero whose failures actually make him a more useful and relatable example for ordinary believers. Divine sovereignty operates through, not apart from, human agency — the sailors freely threw Jonah overboard, and yet Jonah rightly says God cast him into the deep; both are simultaneously true. The sequence debate in Jonah 2 matters theologically — whether Jonah prayed before or after being swallowed affects how we read the book; reading it as a strict cause-and-effect sequence risks turning the gospel into a quid pro quo transaction with God. Jonah's "yet I will see your holy temple" is a confession of eschatological faith — in the midst of near-certain death, Jonah expresses confidence not merely in earthly rescue, but in his ultimate destiny as one of God's people. The deep is a Genesis image — Jonah's descent into the primordial waters deliberately echoes the formless void of Genesis 1 and the undoing of creation in the flood, placing his experience within the grand arc of biblical cosmology. Jonah is a prophetic type of Christ's death and resurrection — his three days in the belly of the fish, his descent into the pit, and his emergence onto dry land anticipate and foreshadow the resurrection, as Jesus himself confirms in Matthew 12. Sanctification is real but imperfect — drawing from Westminster Confession Chapter 13, Tony argues that the up-and-down nature of Jonah's spiritual life is not an aberration but a description of the normal Christian life, in which the flesh and spirit remain in perpetual war until glory. Key Concepts Eschatological Faith in the Pit One of the most striking moments in Jonah's prayer is his declaration in 2:4 — "Yet I shall again look upon your holy temple." Tony argues that this is not merely a hope of physical rescue and a return to Jerusalem. Jonah believed he was dying. The waters had closed in to take his life; he was being dragged into underwater trenches that the ancient Semitic mind associated with the very gates of Sheol. In this context, Jonah's declaration is better understood as eschatological faith — a confession that even if God takes his life in judgment, he will still see the Lord face to face in the heavenly temple. It mirrors Job's cry, "Yet in my flesh I shall see God," and anticipates the kind of faith that says, with the father in Mark 9, "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief." Sovereignty and Human Agency Working Together Tony uses Jonah's descent as a teaching moment on the Reformed doctrine of concurrence — the truth that God's sovereign decree and human free will are not in competition but operate simultaneously on different levels. The sailors made a free, agonized decision to throw Jonah overboard; and yet Jonah rightly attributes his casting into the sea to God himself. Tony draws the parallel to Joseph's words to his brothers in Genesis 50: "You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good." This is not a philosophical sleight of hand. It is the consistent testimony of Scripture that God governs all things — including the underwater currents that dragged Jonah to the ocean floor — without reducing human beings to puppets or eliminating their moral responsibility. Sanctification Is Real, Imperfect, and Guaranteed Perhaps the most pastorally significant thread of the episode is Tony's application of Westminster Confession Chapter 13 to Jonah's experience. Jonah makes genuine progress in faith — his prayer is theologically rich and demonstrates real trust in God — and yet he almost immediately slips back behind the curve, making vows the sailors had already made before him, and later in chapter 4, sulking over a dead plant. Tony refuses to read this as a failure of the text. Instead, it is the text faithfully portraying the reality of sanctification: real throughout the whole person, yet imperfect in this life, with an irreconcilable war between flesh and spirit. The hope is not that we will finally overcome that war on our own, but that through the continual supply of the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part will overcome. Salvation — including sanctification — belongs entirely to the Lord. Memorable Quotes Jonah is constantly behind the curve, but for this little moment, for this glimpse in the very center of the book, the pinnacle of the book is Jonah finally catching up to the sailors. All outside visible indicators said he was going to die and he was going to hell. Yet he trusted in the Lord that he would see his holy temple again. God redeems our life from the pit. From the very depths of hell itself, he snatched us like brands from the fire. Full Transcript [00:00:08] Tony Arsenal: Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah the son of Amittai, saying, "Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and call out against it. For their evil has come up before me." But Jonah rose to flee to Tarshish from the presence of the Lord. He went down to Joppa and found a ship going to Tarshish. So he paid the fare and went down into it, to go with them to Tarshish, away from the presence of the Lord.  [00:01:24] Storm and Sailors [00:01:24] Tony Arsenal: But the Lord hurled a great wind upon the sea, and there was a mighty tempest on the sea, so that the ship threatened to break up. Then the mariners were afraid, and each cried out to his god. And they hurled the cargo that was in the ship into the sea to lighten it for them. But Jonah had gone down into the inner part of the ship and had lain down and was fast asleep. So the captain came to him and said, "What do you mean, you sleeper? Arise, call out to your god. Perhaps the god will give us a thought that we may not perish." And they said to one another, "Come, let us cast lots, that we may know on whose account this evil has come upon us." So they cast lots, and the lot fell on Jonah. Then they said to him, "Tell us on whose account this evil has come upon us. What is your occupation, and where do you come from? What is your country, and of what people are you?" And he said to them, "I am a Hebrew, and I fear the Lord, the God of heaven, who made the sea and the dry land." Then the men were exceedingly afraid and said to him, "What is this that you have done?" For the men knew that he was fleeing from the presence of the Lord, because he had told them. Then they said to him, "What shall we do to you that the sea may quiet down for us?" For the sea grew more and more tempestuous. [00:02:36] Cast Into Sea [00:02:36] Tony Arsenal: He said to them, "Pick me up and hurl me into the sea. Then the sea will quiet down for you. For I know it is because of me that this great tempest has come upon you." Nevertheless, the men rowed hard to get back to the dry land, but they could not, for the sea grew more and more tempestuous against them. Therefore they called out to the Lord, "O Lord, let us not perish for this man's life, and lay not on us innocent blood. For you, O Lord, has done as it pleased you." So they picked up Jonah and hurled him into the sea. And the sea ceased from its raging. Then the men feared the Lord exceedingly, and they offered a sacrifice to the Lord and made vows. [00:03:15] Fish and Prayer [00:03:15] Tony Arsenal: And the Lord appointed a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the belly of the fish, saying, "I called out to the Lord out of my distress, and he answered me. Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, and you heard my voice. For you cast me into the dep-- into the deep, into the heart of the seas, and the flood surrounded me. All your waves and billows passed over me." Then he said, "I am driven away from your sight. Yet I shall look again upon your holy temple. The waters closed in over me to take my life. The deep surrounded me. Weeds were wrapped around my head." At the root of the mountain I went to the land, whose bars closed upon me forever. Yet you brought my life up from the pit, O Lord my God. When I-- when my life was fainting away, I remembered the Lord, and my prayer came to you into your holy temple. Those who pay regard to vain idols forsake their hope of steadfast love. But I, with a voice of thanksgiving, will sacrifice to you. What I have vowed I will pay. Salvation belongs to the Lord.  [00:04:23] Jonah Not the Hero [00:04:23] Tony Arsenal: And the Lord spoke to the fish, and it vomited Jonah out upon the dry land Jonah is an interesting book because, as I commented a year ago, Jonah is not necessarily the hero of the story. Uh, if anything, he is kind of the villain in, in some senses. But nevertheless, I think as we'll see today, Jonah still gives us a good example to follow in a sense, and that I think is really the centerpiece of this prayer, is that even as Jonah's going through all of this, his prayer is still remarkably filled with faithful sayings and trust in the Lord. We learned early on in Jonah that Jonah was a prophet during the time of the kings. Uh, he, uh, he seemed to have been a sort of a court temple. He was in the presence of the kings in Jerusalem itself, and he received a calling from the word of the Lord, and this phrase, "the word of the Lord," seems to imply a pre-incarnate, uh, visible manifestation of the second person of the Trinity. So we're not just talking about a, a disembodied voice. We're not just talking about some sort of sense or impression, but the word of the Lord itself, himself, came to give Jonah this mission, to give Jonah this task, to commission him as a prophet to Nineveh. And Jonah gets up and says, "No, thank you," and he goes the opposite direction. We see in that first section there the repeated phrase, "He goes to Tarshish. He boards a ship in Tarshish." The author here, who we, we think is Jonah, is hammering that he did not go where he was supposed to. He went the opposite direction. He went to Tarshish instead of Nineveh, which is 180 degrees the other direction from, uh, from Nineveh on the map. And he boards the, he boards the ship in order to flee the presence of the Lord. He pays, probably buys out the entire ship itself. He pays the fare for the whole ship, and the Lord hurls a great wave, uses the language of weapons. He hurls this storm like a spear. He weaponizes nature itself to correct and chastise and judge Jonah for his disobedience We get to verses seven through 17, and everyone on the boat is crying out to their chosen deity except Jonah. Jonah is asleep in the hold of the ship, oblivious to everything, totally dead to the world and dead to his Lord. The sailors begin to seek divine li- divine wisdom after they wake Jonah. He comes to the deck of the ship, and they cast lots to identify by divine, uh, revelation, sort of a strange practice in the Old Testament or the old, uh, world. Divine revelation that shows them Jonah is the source of this wickedness that is being wrought upon them, at least their impression of it. So they ask Jonah, "Who are you? Tell us who it is that has caused this great calamity." And he says emphatically, "A Hebrew am I." He identifies himself with God's people, and he says, "The Lord is my God, and he made the heaven and the earth and the sea." There's no small amount of irony, and it explains why the sailors are so afraid when he says that God created the heavens where the storm was. He created the sea where they were about to die, and he created the dry land where they were trying to get to. And so this one phrase that Jonah uses almost casually demonstrates that the Lord has total and utter sovereignty over what is going on, which is a theme that we'll see come back again and again through the book The sailors say, "Well, what do we do about this?" And Jonah says, "Throw me into the ocean, because I know that if you do so, then the storm will calm down and you will be saved." Whether he knew this because he's a prophet and it had been revealed to him, or whether he just was surmising that this was the case, we don't know. But the, uh, sailors are hesitant to do so, and we talked about how it was a little bit strange that these, uh, pagan sailors from cultures that d- had no qualms about human sacrifice were suddenly, uh, unwilling to throw Jonah over the sea a- as a, an appeasement offering to this Lord. And we came to the conclusion that they had been regenerated. They had come to faith in this God who created the heavens and the sea and the dry ground. And so they knew intrinsically that this was wrong, that there was a moral imperative not to do this. So they tried to row back to the land. They jettisoned all of their, uh, all of their goods, all of their cargo. They were making for land as best they could, and when it finally became clear that they couldn't do this, they sought the Lord's mercy in saying, essentially, "We don't understand how this is, but please don't put this man's blood on us, because you, Lord, have done as you please," right? The sovereignty of the Lord again comes to the forefront. They finally cast Jonah into the sea, and this is, this is important. They cast Jonah into the sea, and then they worship, they vow vows, and they vow to sacrifice. They offer sacrifices. They seek the Lord, they acknowledge his s- his sovereignty, and they worship him with what they have left. And then rounding out the chapter, the Lord appoints a great fish to come and swallow up Jonah. And we talked about how this, this swallowing of Jonah, although our popular children's books and VeggieTales and other stories we might read to our kids paints the fish often as the vehicle of judgment, it's actually a vehicle of deliverance for Jonah. There's this interesting grammatical feature that happens where in 1:17 the fish is masculine. The, the, the gender of the word is masculine, and then when we get to 2:1 it switches over to the feminine, almost as if to indicate that the whale was pregnant with Jonah, that Jonah was in the whale and was about to be reborn into the world in a new way And that brings us to our passage here today.  [00:10:21] Sequence Debate [00:10:21] Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna read, uh, 1:17 even though that's a little bit outside of our scope. I'm gonna read it along with 2:1 to, to make the point here. It says, "The Lord appointed a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the whale, of the fish three days and three nights. Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the belly of the fish." When you look at the Hebrew text, 1:17 is actually verse 2:1 and 2:1 is then 2:2 and so on and so forth. In the original Hebrew mindset of how this book goes together, these two things were linked together, him being swallowed by the whale and being in the belly of the fish and then him praying was linked together in this sequence. There's a feature in the Hebrew that's called a vav consecutive. You don't need to remember that. Nobody is gonna care about that. But it's, it's a little grammatical feature where it adds this little character to the front of the verb and it indicates a sequence. It's the narrative storytelling. When you look at Genesis 1 it's, "And then God said, 'Let there be light,' and then there was light." It tells you the sequence of events. Sometimes it indicates that it is a strict sequence of events. This happened and then that finished and then the next thing happened and then that finished. And many of the commentators use this passage to justify a perspective of Jonah where Jonah is this rebellious, stubborn prophet who holds out his stubbornness until the very last minute. He's swallowed by the whale, he's getting digested by stomach acid and he sort of finally relents to the Lord and cries out for deliverance and the Lord acquiesces in response to his prayer. That's certainly a possible interpretation. There's lots of good reasons in the, the text here to think Jonah was kind of a chucklehead and was not paying too much attention to what the Lord had for him The other option is to see this as a way for the author of the text to situate this prayer in contrast to other prayers that are not necessarily talked about directly in this text. And I'm gonna take that later view here, and I think it's important. This makes good sense of the text, and we'll explain exactly why that is when we get to the next little section here. But it also protects us theologically if we understand it this way. Jonah is already a book, uh, as I've alluded to, that tends towards a sort of crass moralism or fabulism. We tend to read it as sort of an allegory of if you do the wrong thing, God punishes you, and when you finally do the right thing, He blesses you. And there's a certain level of common grace wisdom to that approach, right? The whole book of Proverbs is-- are these proverbial sayings that if you do this, then the God-- then God will do this. If you raise up your children in the way they will go, they will not depart when they are older. But we also learn in the Book of Job and the Book of Ecclesiastes that those proverbial sayings, although generally true, it's not a magic formula. And so we have this tendency to read Old Testament literature as though it was this sort of like equation, that God punishes us when we're bad. He, uh, He relents from His punishment when we say we're sorry, and we have to be careful about that. If we understand what I'm about to teach from the next section here, that this is not a strict sequence of events, that Jonah began praying before he was swallowed by the whale, and this is simply recording the prayer that was actually within the whale. It helps protect us from seeing Jonah in this sort of quid pro quo, this for that kind of thing. I think we should simply understand this as saying Jonah was in the water, he got swallowed by the whale, and then when he was in the whale, he prayed. It doesn't say anything about whether he was overly stubborn or whether his stubbornness held out. It simply tells us that he was in the pray-- in the whale when this prayer occurred [00:14:23] Sheol and Descent [00:14:23] Tony Arsenal: He says in verse two, he calls out to the Lord out of his distress. He, and God answers him. Out of the belly of Sheol, Jonah cries, and God hears his voice This here tells us that he began praying, right? He was in the water, he was in the deep. All of this descriptive language we're gonna see later on about how deep he was, how quickly the current took him. He was wrapped up in seaweed, his life was fading from him. It was in the midst of all of that that he cries out in his distress. It's a pretty distressing situation. And Jonah, like all of us would, like even most atheists would, cries out to the Lord, even just out of instinct. I think it's kind of crazy for us to think that this man who's now been cast overboard and is being swept to the bottom of the ocean is sure he's gonna die. Somehow, he overrides all of his instinct and his entire life teaching and refuses to pray to the Lord. It just doesn't make sense, and it doesn't make sense of what the text presents here Jonah was in the belly of Sheol. He was in the very, the very womb of Sheol. And there is this interesting contrast that he goes from the belly of Sheol into the belly of the whale. This phrase, the belly of Sheol, is probably roughly equivalent to our phrase about being at death's door, right? It, it may or may not come from some sort of Mesopotamian, um, mythology. It may be a phrase of sort of co-opted into Hebrew, kinda like our phrase at death's door is actually co-opted in from Greek mythology, where there were actually literal doors to the underworld, and people would go there and when they were about to die. Jonah's point is that this was not a small thing. When we watch VeggieTales, he gets thrown in the water, and, like, 13 seconds later, the, the whale comes up and takes him. Jonah was swept down into the water almost supernaturally quick. He was drawn down to the very bottom of the ocean. We talk about the miracle of him surviving in the whale, and it was miraculous for sure, but the miracle of him being swept to the bottom of the ocean and not being crushed by the weight of the water, by the pressure, is equally miraculous. It's no more difficult for God to do that than it is for Him to preserve him in the whale or to raise Jesus from the dead or to create everything from nothing He finally starts to catch up with the pagan sailors. A theme in Jonah is that everyone around Jonah who shouldn't know any better somehow gets to the right conclusion before he does, right? The sailors begin to worship the Lord. They recognize this is divine wrath while Jonah is still asleep in the hold. Later, we'll see that, uh, the, the Ninevites recognize God's mercy and grace and thank Him for it, and Jonah is still mad because the plant he was sitting on d- uh, dies, right? Jonah is constantly behind the curve, but for this little moment, for this glimpse in the very center of the book, the pinnacle of the book is Jonah finally catching up to the sailors. [00:17:34] Sovereignty Explained [00:17:34] Tony Arsenal: He recognizes that it was God who cast him into the depths. This teaches us something about the doctrine of sovereignty and how it relates to human freedom, right? We, we often ask the question, what, what causes rain? Well, you can answer that by saying tiny particles of dust collect water in the air, and once they have enough weight, they fall out of the sky 'cause the air can't hold them up anymore. That's true, and it's good, and that's what nature teaches us. It's also equally true that God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust alike, and those two things are not contradictory. So when Jonah says, "You cast me into the sea," he's recognizing, like Joseph does in the Book of Genesis, that what the sailors in this case meant for good but what the brothers meant for evil, God purposed and caused for good. What the sailors did by their own volition, their own free will, they exercised their own, uh, autonomy in the, the horizontal sense to cast Jonah into the sea, God also cast him into the sea As I said, the text here uses language that we may not catch in our English translations to indicate that it's not just the sea here that's the problem. God's sovereignty continues to affect and act on Jonah. The word that we read here as the, the water or the flood, other places refers to the current of a river. The, um, the Euphrates itself is sometimes referred to this, the large- sort of the largest river apart from the Nile that the Egyptian or the, um, Israelite mind would have is the Euphrates, right? This underwater river, this underwater current, the undertow sucks him to the bottom of the ocean. It's like if you're swimming at the beach at the ocean and you get caught in the undercurrent. There's not a lot you can do about it. Y- sometimes even the strongest swimmers can't overcome this, and Jonah in all of his Middle Eastern robes, all of this stuff, probably with all of his baggage, his, his own equipment, things he had on him, is caught in this undercurrent that sucks him to the bottom of the ocean. And it's not just below the surface of the water. He's dropped down into the heart of the sea, the very core. We're seeing this language of him being pulled to the depths. In, in chapter one he goes down, down, down, and now he's being drawn into the belly of the ocean, into the pit of Sheol, into the heart of the waters The picture here is that Jonah doesn't just get thrown in the water and sink. He is actively pulled down to the bottom. This is not just a judgment where perhaps he can swim to the top. Just as the mariners hopelessly tried to reach land, Jonah would've been hopelessly trying to swim against this. We don't actually have any indication he tried, but had he tried, there would've been no chance He goes on to say that the God's breakers and his waves roll him. This is the picture we see if you ever watch surfing competitions on the ocean, where a surfer will get hit by the wave and he just gets rolled over and rolled over and rolled over, and it can be incredibly dangerous. That's why they have like the little lifeguards on the jet skis that zip out there to get them. Because when you get caught in that breaker, you just get rolled over and rolled over and rolled over, and soon you lose track of which direction is up, and even if you did, you couldn't get out This process is not just the forces of nature doing what they do. This is, again, the Lord weaponizing the forces of nature to execute judgment on Jonah This tumultuous and supernatural rapid descent showed Jonah that this is not only the moment in which God wanted to take his life, but was actively casting him away from the g- from the presence of the Lord [00:21:47] Yet I Will See [00:21:47] Tony Arsenal: It says here, um, in verse four, Jonah says, "I am driven away from your sight If you do a word study on this, you start to see that Jonah is pulling language from the creation account. He's pulling language from the fall. He's pulling a lot of language from Genesis itself. He's also pulling from the Psalms, which are pulling from the Genesis account. This word driven away could also be tran- translated as banished. He's cast out of the presence of the Lord. Just as in Genesis 3, we read, "God drove the man out at the east of the Garden of Eden. He placed cherubim and flaming swords." He drove the man out. Genesis 4:14, Cain says, "You have driven me away from the ground." And in Jonah 1:3, we see that Jonah was trying to get away from the presence of the Lord. And I wonder if there was this moment where he goes, "Ooh, I guess I got what I was looking for." Now, the second half of Jonah f- 2:4 here does something a little bit weird, and it's hard to translate. I think we should be honest at times. Hebrew is a language that in some senses is mysterious to us at times. There are still parts of the Hebrew Bible that we're not always 100% sure of. This verse here could be translated... In, in Hebrew it's just a statement. It's, "I, um, I shall again see the holy temple, or your holy temple." How that fits into the text itself is tricky. Some read it as, uh, as a question. "How shall I see your holy temple?" It's actually a statement kind of reaffirming the doubt and the fear and the idea that God was banishing him Most translations translate it as sort of a contrast. He says, "I was driven away from your sight, yet I shall again look on your holy temple." The force of this is even though you're driving me away, even though you're casting me out of your presence, I have faith, I have confidence that I will again see your holy temple The question here, and this is where I think Jonah becomes our example It's certainly possible that Jonah was asserting his belief that he would be rescued from this calamity and he would make his way back to Jerusalem and he would return to the holy temple. I think that what he says in the rest of this, he's recounting what he was praying. What he was praying in this context is not that he would return to the temple. He was confident God was taking his life. He says in verse five, "The waters closed in over me to take my life. The deep surrounded me. Weeds were wrapped around my head." The other way that the phrase holy temple is used in the Old Testament is to refer to the place that God lives in heaven. Jonah was asserting faith that even though he was being cast out of the presence of the Lord in this life, even though he was being justly punished for his sin, even though he was about to enter the belly of Sheol and to enter the pit, the very abyss, that he would see God again in His holy temple. This is a statement of Jonah's belief in his own destiny as one of God's people, destined to be saved by faith in God. In this moment, Jonah trusts the Lord despite all of the appearances that God was out to get him It's not all that different than when we read in Mark chapter 9, where this father brings his, uh, demon-possessed child to Jesus, and Jesus says, "I can heal him." And he says, "If you can do anything, Lord," I'm paraphrasing here. He says, "If you can do it, please, Lord." And he says, "If? All things are possible for me." And the father desperately cries out, "Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief." It's this raw, unfiltered statement of just the human condition on this side of glory, right? I believe in the Lord, but there's always that little part in the back of my head that isn't sure, because we're never going to be perfect. Now, I've said before, and, and this is becoming my new catchphrase, I think, I'm not here to rob you of your assurance of faith. Our, our confession, the Bible, this church, our Reform, broader Reform tradition, the assurance of faith of the Christian is the rightful possession inheritance of every person in this room who trusts the Lord. But it is a reality that at times that assurance is shaken. And if there's ever a time for your assurance to be shaken, it's when you're being dragged to the bottom of the ocean, right? One of the words in here, I don't have it-- I don't actually have it in my notes for some reason, but one of the note, words here, uh, s- about the roots of the mountain, I believe, in the next verse. It's not just that he was dragged to the bottom of the ocean. This word root of the mountain is like the word that's used to cut. He's not just being dragged to the bottom of the sea, he's being dragged to the bottom of a deep sea crevasse. He's literally being pulled into the pit, right? Many, uh, in the ancient Semitic world would have seen these underwater pits. They would have theorized or thought about these underwater crevasses as the actual entry into Sheol. And Jonah sees himself being drawn down into these things. Yet, he believes he will see the good presence of the Lord We read a similar statement, I won't, uh, I won't make us go there for time. We read a similar statement in Job. Job goes through this long speech about all the things that God has done to him, and at the very end of it, he says, "Yet I will see the Lord with my eyes, and he will stand up next to me on, on the earth." Right? Even though Job was going through this unimaginable grief, and we know that Job didn't deserve it in the strict sense, he still was saying, "I'm gonna be destroyed. God is shooting arrows at me," right? "His sword is in my side. He's targeting me. He's sending hornets after me." All of these terrible, vibrant images that he's using to show what God is doing to him, and yet he still trusts. I would say that he trusts that he would see the Lord in the flesh. This is not only Jonah's faith, it's a-- or Job's faith, it's a prophecy of Christ This is alien to our modern mindset. We've been talking about this in the Psalms. Weston's been leading us through the, the lament Psalms We often think that suffering and trials and difficulties are the opposite of blessing and favor. And we might recognize that in some sort of way that in God's economy, one thing leads to another. And again, there's an element of truth to that. James says, "Count it all joy when you face trials of every kind." He's not saying that the trials you're facing are in themselves joyful. You don't have to love when you get sick. You don't have to, you don't have to man up and put a smile on or s- pull yourself up by your bootstraps or whatever analogy you wanna use. It's okay to be sad when bad things happen. It's actually good, right? If we're to weep with those who weep, there's an element of sadness that must come with that, not to mention the one who's weeping is not chastised. But the idea that that only leads to this, that that's just one step in the chain, that's not really the mindset the Bible has. All across the Psalms, in the lament Psalms, all across the prophetic literature, the Book of Lamentations, Habakkuk has this long prayer at the end that's very similar, the entire Book of Job, suffering and sanctification, trials and joy and restoration, they're all sandwiched right there, and there is usually this statement in the middle of it that God will do what is right This is Jonah's example for us, and what an example it is. We'll talk in a little bit about all the ways that this whole scenario is typological of Christ. We'll, we'll get to that. But just for a minute in the middle of this book, Jonah is not such a bad guy. And it's because he still has all his faults that he can be this example for us [00:30:26] Genesis Deep Imagery [00:30:26] Tony Arsenal: As though it wasn't clear enough, Jonah in verse five says that the purpose of the waters closing over him was explicitly to take his life. He's now in the belly of the sea. He's being dragged down to the very roots of the mountain, to the very core of the earth in his mind. He, he thinks he's going to hell in the, the Hebrew mind. There's both this idea that God is dragging him to hell in a very real sense. The Hebrew mind, Sheol was a physical place that people went to, and we learn more about it and that becomes clarified as revelation is progressive, not contradictory, but as, as it's clarified But he uses this word deep, and this is where he's drawing again from Genesis. Genesis 1:2, he says, "The earth was without form and void. The darkness was over the face of the deep." The deep is this sort of like unformed chaotic water. It's what exists before God makes everything orderly and good. And in the fall, and especially in the flood in chapter seven, uh, chapter seven verse 11, the f- the flood itself is a sort of undoing of the order. God opens the floods from beneath, from the bottom of the earth, from the wellspring of the deep, as well as the chaotic waters from outside the firmament, and it all pours back in together and the entire world becomes again this deep, primordial, chaotic water And just as in Genesis God separates the land, in, in Genesis 7 or in Genesis 8, he separates out the land by drying it up, drying up the water. We also see that Jonah has this trust that he will return to the dry land. Again, he's the God of heaven and sea and dry earth. We could even read this phrase, depending on the context, as the abyss, which is this, a- again, is some borrowed language from Greek here that the Hebrews use. But it's this deep, watery, murky place th- full of shadows and darkness. Sounds familiar, I think, right? Christ says that those who are apart from him who refuse to obey will be cast into the outer darkness. This is the imagery that Jonah is seeing. All outside visible indicators was that he was gonna die and he was going to hell. Yet he trusted in the Lord that he would see his holy temple again Apart from God's gracious intervention, Jonah was right. So although God is the one that's bringing him to the depth, bringing him to the pit, dragging him down, using the very currents of the sea, weaponizing these underwater currents that only thousands of years later do we understand, and even then only this much, he also graciously rescues him from this by miraculously appointing a whale or a great fish who comes and swallows Jonah, takes him whole, and keeps him there in his own belly, keeps him there in her own womb when we get to chapter 2. In chapter six, or in verse six, Jonah makes this pivot. Again, he says he's brought to the very bottom of the sea, to the roots of the mountain, which is these deep underwater trenches. He conceptualizes himself now in this locked city behind bars. Again, this jail imagery, this pit imagery, it's all meant to evoke this idea of the final punishment of the wicked. This place of murky, gross water, this place of darkness and, uh, limitations of freedom, he's being taken there. This is the section here where people would actually argue that Jonah dies. He actually dies and is resurrected when he's swallowed by the whale. This comes from language where it says God does not prevent him from going to the pit. God actually draws him to the pit and then raises his life up from the pit. Now, I'm not convinced, um, that we should think that Jonah actually died. I don't, I don't think that the text fully supports that. But it certainly is using this imagery [00:34:45] Christ Typology [00:34:45] Tony Arsenal: This is where we get to some typology about Christ. This is where Jonah really shines as a prophet. Sometimes people wonder why the Book of Jonah is considered a prophetic book, and this along with it is part of that. Jonah, although the sign of Jonah in Matthew and in the other Gospels refers to the belly of the whale, that just as Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and three nights, so also Christ will be in the heart of the earth, the pit, for three days and three nights. When we're talking about typology, we can't get too tripped up on the details. We're not talking about strict allegory where this figure is that person and this signpost represents that thing. This isn't Pilgrim's Progress or Chronicles of Narnia, which is not allegory, but it's similar. Topology functions often on sort of these big picture concepts, right? Although there are some typological references that are super detailed, there are also some that are just sort of evocative The idea that Jonah died and was raised to life and sort of incubated in the earth, in- incubated in the whale and sort of reborn into the world, that certainly sounds a lot like a picture of the resurrection And I think we should see it that way. When Christ says that the sign of Jonah is roughly His resurrection, He is tying it to the three days and three nights, but He's not limiting to that Jonah comes to this pivot, and now he starts to reflect on the context of his deliverance. This whole s- this whole prayer should be seen sort of in the light of the thanksgiving psalms. There's a situation in which Jonah is in, and then God rescues him, and he begins to praise him for it. There's elements of lament, but it's really a thanksgiving psalm that he's drawing on here or that he's, he's writing In 2:7, Jonah is either dead or he's actively dying. I don't know about you, but if you've ever, uh, dove into a pool and got a little deeper than you thought you were, and you-- there's that, like, two seconds before you get to the top where you're sure the lights are going out and you've really only been underwater for, like, 45 seconds, but everything in you tells you if you don't get there, you're gonna die. Every instinct you have is to scramble for the surface. Think about how long it took Jonah to be dragged to the bottom of the ocean. Even at this accelerated pace, we're talking about a long time. And we have no reason to believe, and lots of reasons to think otherwise, Jonah was not preserved from the pain and the terror and the difficulty of feeling like you're drowning because he was drowning. He was without oxygen. His life was fading away. And it is in this context of him being on the brink of death, at death's door, in the belly of Sheol, being drawn into the very pit itself, that his prayer reaches the Lord in His holy temple. Right? This gives further evidence to the thought that Jonah is not talking about the temple in Jerusalem. There was, there was theology, and I, I think it's fine theology, that God lived in the temple in a special way. This is the reason that Daniel faces Jerusalem when he prays. There is a sense in the Old Testament that God's special place of presence is the temple in Jerusalem, and that the prayers of the people physically go to that place to be received by God. But Jonah doesn't know which direction the temple is. He's underwater. He's been tossed around by breakers. He has no sense of geography at this point He knows that his prayers are reaching the Lord in his heavenly temple. And they reach him in his heavenly temple just as his life is being lost in the pit. And it is from this moment that God raises him to life, or preserves his life, depending how you read it, and appoints the well to come reach him And some read this next verse as a little bit of a step back for Jonah, and it may be.  [00:39:02] Vows and Idols [00:39:02] Tony Arsenal: He reads, "Those who pay vain regard to i- regard to vain idols forsake their hope of steadfast love. But I, with the voice of thanksgiving, will sacrifice to you. And what I have vowed I will pay. Salvation belongs to the Lord." Jonah didn't see the sailors on the ship vow their vows and offer their sacrifices. That happened after they threw him into the pit and the current sucked him under So we may read this with a little bit of a, "Thank God I'm not like that tax collector," kind of a lens. And there's probably some wisdom for us in that, to recognize that Jonah still hasn't quite gotten there. But it's also very common in the Old Testament to recognize that God treats His people differently because they are different. God brings people to a place of sanctification, and through that process of sanctification, they cease to worship vain idols. And it is absolutely true that those who worship vain idols forfeit their hope of steadfast love from the Lord. That's straight out of the Ten Commandments, right? He visits the iniquity of, specifically of idolatry. He visits the iniquity unto the children to the third and fourth generation. But for those who love the Lord, He loves them with a steadfast love unto thousands We can recognize in Jonah that although he had made great progress in faith, that he still wasn't there yet. And we can recognize that in him because we can recognize that in ourselves. Jonah is the example in this because he is not perfect, because he has not arrived, 'cause he doesn't do a 180 about-face and get everything right going forward We can read this in light of Jonah in chapter four, where he takes big steps back Or we can read this as the regular up and down progress of sanctification in the life of all believers everywhere It is also ironic again, we're back now to Jonah being a little bit behind the curve. He was sent to Nineveh to evangelize the heathens, some of the worst enemies that Israel was going to face, and he ignores that call. And he, instead of going to Nineveh, he goes to Tarshish. He goes the opposite direction, and he does something that would be unthinkable to most Israelites. He goes out on the open ocean. That's just insanity to someone living in the ancient world He should have recognized that the sailors were fearing the Lord when they refused to throw him overboard. I think we all have a sort of innate sense when someone's behavior suddenly changes, and I think most of us, and not in some sort of strange, kooky, charismatic sense, but I think most of us can sort of go, "I think I know why that is." Right, when you, when you see someone at work that suddenly stops lying about everything and stops backbiting and stops taking credit for other people's work, and then you find out a little while linger- longer that they've come to faith in Christ, if we're being honest, we're not all that surprised. But Jonah doesn't get it. Jonah here promises the same things that the sailors already did, so now we're again back behind the curve [00:42:37] Sanctification Confession [00:42:37] Tony Arsenal: To wrap this out, I, I wanna, um, I wanna ground this in something that I think is really vital for us to understand. As I said, Jonah is an example to us because he demonstrates the limited nature of sanctification, but he also demonstrates in a certain sense the fact that sanctification is real and has real effects. So this is a little out of the ordinary, but grab your Trinity Hymnal from the pew in front of you. If you happen to have a copy of the Confession, you could use that if you'd prefer. But open with me to page 927 I have, um, I've been, uh, broadly Reformed most of my Christian life and didn't realize it until I got to seminary. And since I discovered the Westminster Confession of Faith a decade ago, it's not new, uh, not new to me, um, I realized how valuable this resource was. This is essentially a search engine without the internet. And so I wanna just read a little bit out of chapter 13 here, which is our Confessions chapter on sanctification. I'm not gonna read the whole thing, but the, the first, uh, the first section here essentially says that sanctification is real, and it happens throughout the whole person. We talk about total depravity, and there is a sense in which the Christian remains totally depraved after regeneration, in that there still is, there still is corruption within our entire being, uh, that is depraved. There's also an equal sense in which we can say we are totally sanctified in Christ because sanctification is throughout the whole man in which we are renewed after the image of God. So that's section one. And then section two says, "This sanctification is throughout," again, throughout the whole man, "in the whole man, yet imperfect in this life. There abiding still some remnant of corruption in every part, whence ariseth a continual and irre- irreconcilable war, the flesh left lusting after the spirit, and the spirit lusting after the flesh." Now, that may feel like just a crushing burden if you stop reading there, but it lines up with our experience, right? This is Paul in Romans 7, "The good things I wanna do, I do not, and the bad things that I, I kn- I do not want to do, I somehow do. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." We shouldn't read that as though somehow our spirits are purified entirely and our bodies are what's really causing us to sin. This is a picture of the spirit being, uh, our, our spiritual part of us. The part of us that's regenerated is willing, but the part of us that remains corrupt is our flesh And our confession goes on to say, "In which war, although the remaining corruption for a time may much prevail, yet through the continual supply of strength from the sanctification- sanctifying spirit of Christ, the regenerate part doth overcome." And so the saints grow in grace, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. This is revolutionary in our broader evangelical world. The storybook Bible, Jonah did a bad thing and he gets punished, and he did a good thing and so he gets better, cannot understand this concept. This is why I think we have to be so careful when we choose what books to give to our little ones, right? I, I make jokes about VeggieTales. I loved VeggieTales when I was in VeggieTales age range. I probably would sit down and watch VeggieTales with Augie when he gets old enough. But we have to be so careful not to let those messages come to our children, or to ourselves for that matter, uninterpreted by the scriptures first and foremost, and our Reformed tradition that we all believe. Amen.  [00:46:49] Assurance in the Pit [00:46:49] Tony Arsenal: This is vital for us When all is said and done, salvation, whether we're talking about justification, sanctification, glorification, resurrection, all of the different stages and phases of our salvation, it is entirely of the Lord. And it's for this reason that Jonah says, "I, with a voice of thanksgiving, will sacrifice to you. What I have vowed I will pay." Salvation belongs to the Lord So this is the application of the sermon, loved ones. No matter how close to or actually into the pit itself we have fallen The, the chapter on assurance of faith, I won't go there, but the chapter in our confession on assurance of faith is very honest with us that our assurance will be shaken, and at times we may not feel as though we have any assurance at all But even when we have fallen that deep into the pit of despair, even when we feel as though we are in the very depths of hell No matter how much our spiritual or physical life is fainting away as we starve for spiritual breath, as we feel that impulse in us that recognizes we're moments away from losing the faith entirely. No matter how much the remnants of corruption in every part swirl around our heads like seaweed, how often do we feel wrapped up in sin? Whatever it is, I don't need to get specific 'cause I'm sure all of you are thinking of something in your head right now that has been swirling around you for years. Maybe it's months, maybe it's years. Maybe you've never felt, since coming to Christ, you've never felt like it wasn't wrapped up around you like seaweed. Besetting sin is something that we need to be serious about, and it's a good cause for us to think hard and deep about our status as Christians, and to go to our pastor and seek the elders' assistance in this. But besetting sin is not, is not a mark that excludes you from, from Christianity. Right? We're justified by faith alone, in Christ alone, by His grace alone. Not because we've overcome our besetting sin alone, right? That's not one of the five solas God redeems our life from the pit. From the very depths of hell itself, he snatched us like brands from the fire And though it is the case that we often are shaken, and at times God, just as he let Jonah, he let Jonah go to Tarshish. God had every ability to stop him from doing a stupid thing, and sometimes he does that, right? I'm sure there's plenty of times we can think about in our lives where we were heading towards sin and God just pulled a U-turn on us, and we are thankful for that. But there are times that he does not, and he lets us, he lets us do that. He lets us suffer the consequences, and he does that to chastise us and bring us back to him And even in the context of that, it is through this continual supply of the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, right?  [00:50:19] God Beautifies His Bride [00:50:19] Tony Arsenal: Christ was anointed by the Holy Spirit from the womb beyond measure. That's in the Book of John. There was never a time where Christ did not have the totality of the infinite sanctifying Spirit of the God, of God. We do not have the totality of the sanctifying Spirit of God. Now, we can get into a discussion after the service about divine simplicity and all the complexity of that, but the reality is that God sanctifies us more and more and more, and He does it by giving us the Spirit more and more. Might be more accurate to say He gives more of us to the Spirit. He gives us to the Spirit more and more. He gives us to Jesus more and more. We are Christ's inheritance. We are His bride. And just as the bride, as they're approaching the wedding, is made more and more beautiful, they start their, their beauty treatments weeks and months ahead of time, right? They're already making their hair appointments. They're already doing what they need to do to feel as beautiful as they can and to be as beautiful as they can on their wedding day. If that's the way we treat human weddings; guys do it too, just not as much. If that's the way we treat human weddings, how much more does God treat the heavenly wedding of His Son to His beloved bride? He's beautifying us, Church. Doesn't always feel like it. Doesn't always look like it, but He is. 
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  Parable of the Talents: False Theology Produces Fatal Inaction 19.06.2026 1h 4min

  In episode 497 of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb bring the Parable of the Talents to a close with one of the most theologically rich discussions in recent memory. Beginning in Matthew 25:24, they zero in on the one-talent servant — not merely as a cautionary tale about productivity, but as a profound case study in distorted theology. The servant's fatal error wasn't laziness alone; it was a fundamentally false picture of his master. That mischaracterization produced a craven, fearful inaction that the hosts argue maps directly onto the eschatological stakes of the parable. Drawing on Calvin, William Ames, and Reformed confessional commitments, Tony and Jesse make the case that right theology is never merely academic — it shapes the whole of life, and ultimately determines one's eschatological destiny. Key Takeaways The one-talent servant's core failure is theological, not behavioral — he constructs a false image of his master as harsh and exploitative, and that distorted theology governs everything that follows. False theology produces fatal inaction — the servant's fear is not godly fear but a craven dread rooted entirely in his mischaracterization of the master's character. The knowledge of God and the knowledge of self are inseparable — following Calvin's Institutes, the hosts argue that a right understanding of God as gracious and generous will produce active, trusting faithfulness, while a distorted view produces fearful, minimal compliance. The parable is fundamentally eschatological, not merely practical — interpreting the talents primarily as spiritual gifts or ministry opportunities misses the point; the parable is about who belongs to the master's kingdom and who does not. Character precedes action — the faithful servants do not become faithful by producing returns; they produce returns because they are faithful. The wicked servant buries his talent because he is wicked, not the other way around. William Ames understood the servant's sin as a violation of the ninth commandment — by burying his talent, the servant effectively bears false witness against God's own estimation of the gift, rejecting both the gift and the Giver. The "outer darkness" language is not out of place — it is the natural eschatological conclusion for someone who never genuinely knew or trusted the master, making the parable a picture of what it means to be outside the grace and presence of God entirely. Key Concepts False Theology as the Root of Inaction The most striking feature of the one-talent servant's account is not what he did — or failed to do — but what he believed. He tells his master, "I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed." Tony and Jesse point out that nothing in the parable supports this characterization. A master who entrusts his servants with what amounts to decades of wages — hundreds of years' worth of labor between three servants — is not a hard, exploitative figure. He is astonishingly generous and trusting. The servant has constructed a theological fiction, and that fiction becomes the prison of his own inaction. This is not a peripheral observation; it is the interpretive key to the entire parable. What we believe about God determines everything about how we live before Him. The Knowledge of God Shapes the Whole of Life Calvin famously opens the Institutes with the observation that the knowledge of God and the knowledge of self are so bound together that it is nearly impossible to determine which is logically prior. Jesse draws on this insight to show that the one-talent servant's self-understanding — timid, fearful, paralyzed — flows directly from his distorted image of God. A person who genuinely knows God as gracious, generous, and long-suffering will be motivated to active, trusting faithfulness. A person who privately believes God to be harsh and demanding will retreat into fearful, minimalist compliance. This is not merely a first-century observation. It is a diagnostic tool for self-examination: the shape of our obedience reveals the shape of our theology. Reformed orthodoxy has always insisted that right doctrine is not academic — it is the engine of the Christian life. Character Precedes Action — The Anti-Works-Righteousness Reading One of the most important guardrails Tony and Jesse set up in this episode is against a subtle works-righteousness reading of the parable. It is tempting to hear the parable and conclude: do productive things for the kingdom, and you will be welcomed as a good and faithful servant. But the hosts argue that this inverts the logic of the text entirely. The faithful servants are not commended because they generated a return; they generated a return because they are faithful servants. The wicked servant buries his talent because he is wicked — his character drives his conduct, not the reverse. Justification and sanctification alike are received by faith in Christ alone, and no reading of this parable should suggest that our eschatological standing is secured by our productivity. The sheep act like sheep because they are sheep. That punchline, Tony notes, will carry them straight into the sheep and the goats passage next week. Memorable Quotes "Who is it that's not going to be saved in the last day? It's the people who don't recognize the master. The people who think that the master is a hard man who reaps where he has not sown and gathers where he has not scattered. Well, if we think that's who God is, we have a lot of trouble coming our way." — Tony Arsenal "A person who genuinely knows the living God as gracious, generous, long-suffering, with that kind of hesed kind of love — that person will be motivated to active, trusting faithfulness. A person who privately believes God to be harsh and demanding is always going to retreat in this fearful, minimal kind of compliance." — Jesse Schwamb "The sheep act like sheep because they're sheep. They don't become sheep because they do sheep things. They do sheep things because they're sheep." — Tony Arsenal Full Transcript Welcome to episode four hundred and ninety seven of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse  And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear Hey, brother  [00:00:42] Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother. We're back at it again. We're hanging out in Matthew's gospel, the 25th chapter, and it's time to, I think, close out the Parable of the Talents, where we've got two servants that double their master's money, and one who buries his in the ground like a Calvinist who's confused predestination with doing nothing. And of course, all of this irony is the faithful servants, they can't even take credit. The master supplied the capital, the ability, and apparently even the bull market. It's grace all the way down. But meanwhile, the one talent guy returns exactly what he was given and he gets absolutely wrecked, and we're gonna dig into that. Gonna dig into- ... that later.  [00:01:26] Affirm or Deny Segment [00:01:26] Jesse Schwamb: But before we do, it's what everybody's waiting for. It's that time in the podcast where we affirm with something that we really like or we recommend or we think is undervalued, or we deny against something that's exactly the opposite. Not worth it, no good, get it out of here. So Tony, are you affirming with or denying against?  [00:01:43] Tony Arsenal: I'm denying against something related to the World Cup. Um-  [00:01:47] Jesse Schwamb: Okay ...  [00:01:48] Tony Arsenal: I am not a purist, so please don't hear me as, like, elitist soccer dude who is resistant to any sort of changes, but, um, I didn't actually even know this was happening. Are you following the World Cup at all, Jesse? [00:02:01] Jesse Schwamb: I'm trying to. I'm not against it, I'm just finding myself- Yeah ... stuck in  [00:02:05] Tony Arsenal: trying to like- There, there's a lot going on.  [00:02:06] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah ... yeah, coordinate everything.  [00:02:07] Tony Arsenal: Um, one of the things that they... And they're at weird times this year too- Yes ... at least so far they are.  [00:02:11] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.  [00:02:11] Hydration Breaks Rant [00:02:11] Tony Arsenal: Um, one of the things this year that I noticed that I didn't know was happening, and I hate it, hate it, hate it, hate it, is, uh, I, I guess I understand why they're doing it, but they've instituted what they're calling mandatory hydration breaks-  [00:02:25] Jesse Schwamb: Oh,  [00:02:26] Tony Arsenal: I've read about this uh, into the games. Yeah. And essentially what this has done is it's turned a game that used to be, uh, and has always been two 45-minute halves-  [00:02:38] Jesse Schwamb: Mm-hmm ...  [00:02:38] Tony Arsenal: um, uh, with overage time, right? So, like, the, the ref will sometimes just, like, add a couple minutes. Usually it's, you know, three to five, maybe 10 minutes at the most to the end of the, the half. They've turned that from, uh, two 45-minute halves into now four, what is that? Like, 23-minute quarters, 22 and a half- Right ... minute quarters. Um, and they're not always quarters. They're not always evenly split. They sometimes do the hydration break early or later. Um, this is awful. It's just awful, right? One of the, one of the, um, maybe this is me being a little bit of a soccer purist. One of the things about soccer that makes it a challenging sport is the endurance of it.  [00:03:21] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:03:22] Tony Arsenal: Right? And contrary to what I think most people think when they watch soccer, um, it's one of the few games, few professional games that doesn't have a ton of breaks- Right? There's not a lot of times where, where match play actually stops for any real amount of time. Um, and that's what stoppage time is. It's not intended to be something like football, where there often is time on the clock where the clock is still moving, but the game is not, like, actively progressing forward, right? Right. You have to do something special to stop the clock. In soccer, uh, at least historically, 45 minutes of play is 45 minutes of play. It's, it's 45 minutes of actual actionable play. And now, um, you know, they stop the game. The clock doesn't continue, but now the game stre- like, the, the game itself stretches longer 'cause they've introduced these additional breaks. So I'm denying, uh... This just sounds like s- I'm such a ghoul here. I'm denying mandatory hydration breaks, not because I want soccer players to get sunstroke. Uh, they get plenty of water. There's plenty of times they get to stop and get water. It's- And this is... We didn't have mandatory hydration breaks when the World Cup was in Qatar. Right. Right? And everybody, for the most part, was fine. Like, the players were all fine. There were no casualties on the field. I don't even recall, like, major medical problems on the field. We're in LA now. Yeah, it's warm, summer, but come on, guys. Like, let's, let's, let's be real. This is not, uh, this is not rec league. This is not, you know, U15 league play with, with kids. These are adult men who condition for a living. Like, this is their job, is to be conditioned and for their bodies to be in peak performance. So it's just... It just interrupts the game. I don't know. I'm, I'm being a little crotchety here, but I feel like I have a right to be 'cause this is my show, and I can do what I want to. That's absolutely true. So I'm denying hydration breaks, mandatory hydrat- hydration breaks, which change the game. And a commentator actually commented about that on, on the match the other day. Um, it changes the dynamic of the game. It changes the strategy of the game. Um, it changes the whole feel of the game, right from the strategy of how long you have to be able to go, right? This will change how- how footballers have to condition themselves, 'cause they're no longer having to condition themselves for two 45-minute halves. They're having to condition themselves for four 22-and-a-half minute quarters, um, which is not the same game as, as that. So anyway, we'll- it's yet to see, be seen if that has any real impact on the outcome of any games or anything like that. But it was annoying to me, so I'm denying mandatory hydration breaks. [00:05:59] Jesse Schwamb: That's great. We haven't had a good denial in a little while on this podcast. I think that's fantastic. I mean, not the break, but the denial itself. Plus, and I don't wanna be... You'll have to tell me if I'm speaking conspiratorial here, because most of my apparent World Cup and general sports news still comes from The Wall Street Journal, so that might be a weird place to get it. But- ... the, I became aware of this through an article that was lamenting the exact same thing. Yeah. It was just basically all the arguments that you said. Like, it's weird, and the game wasn't designed this way, and it's definitely like an interruption. It's definitely like an insertion.  [00:06:32] Ads and Soccer Purism [00:06:32] Jesse Schwamb: And then, of course, was all the stuff about, isn't this really about just allowing commercial break time, and it's more about that, and we're just conveniently saying that we need the hydration breaks. And what else would they, we have them do if we needed to force them to take a break but say, "You know what? Why don't you guys take a knee and get some water- Yeah ... while we show you some ads?" So I imagine that doesn't sit well with people either.  [00:06:52] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I mean, I'm sure that that's the case. Again, I, I haven't even been able to watch a full, full World Cup match, so I don't, I don't know... I don't even know how long the hydration breaks are, to be honest with you. But yes, it's an interruption in play where they can cut to commercial. And whether that was why they put this in place or not, or whether they're just utilizing it, it's obnoxious. Like, part of the fun of watching soccer is that there is no commercial break for the first 45 minutes. Right. Um, that's just part of- Which is unusual in sports ... part of the joy of the game, is that it's a continual game with no real breaks. Um, even when, like, a player is injured because, you know, there's an injury on the field or something like that, um, even when that happens, they don't cut to commercial because there was no planned commercial. They don't have anything there. Right. So, um, it's changed, like, the way... Y- you know, even, even things like this is gonna change how uniforms are thought out, because sponsorship money through uniforms used to be the m- one of the main commercial-driving, like, sponsorships for, um, for the game. So I'm just annoyed by it. [00:07:53] More Rule Changes [00:07:53] Tony Arsenal: There's an- a couple other things that I'm annoyed by this year. They have this... It's kinda like that automatic up call checker thing we talked about. Right. They have this, like, um- They call it mistaken identity, uh, recheck. Basically where if a player is fouled or appears to be fouled, they can, someone can flag it and it will recheck it and, like, digitally the system tells them whether there was a foul or not. And like I said before when we were talking about this a little bit before, um, there is a real element in the game, or there has been a real element to the game historically, where the ump is almost like, or the ref is almost like a third player, and you have to be wise and play the ref. Um, you have to, you know, there's, there's an element of a little bit of, uh, espionage and subtle- Right you know, subterfuge here going on in the game that I think people outside the game who are just watching, they look and they think like, "Oh, yeah, that guy flopped." But there's a whole, like, art and there's a whole form to that, and there's real cost if you do it poorly. Um, and so, like, we've already had one instance where a yellow card was called on a player. Uh, the other player simulated the foul. Um, and so they reversed it and gave the other guy a yellow card, but they did that after the game. Um, which, which is a whole other thing. Like, you play a whole game, um I could talk about this all night. Like when you get, when you get a red card- ... you're, you're out for an entire game, not just- Right the rest of this game. You're out for an entire game. Your position is out for an entire game, so that might mean you start the next match down a player. Well, what does that mean if you are given a red card sort of posthumously after the match, right? Right. Like, you- it's changed the whole calculation because for the whole game, that player, uh, was playing as though he didn't have a yellow card. And that, maybe that's good, maybe that's bad, but he was playing the game as though he didn't have a yellow card, and then all of a sudden now he does. Um, he doesn't go... I don't think he goes into the next match starting with a yellow card. Um, a- and so I'm kind of like, "Well, what's the, what's the point?" But, um, you know, some of that plays into, like, if there's ties and ties, match, match point ties, then they start looking at who has penalties and stuff. But either way, it's annoying that they, they're introducing this. Like, we didn't need to have... Yes, there's probably a place for reviewing a, a bad ref's calls. Right. They've also added, like, automatic on offsides. There was a whole strategy and a whole part of the game of forcing a person offsides, of drawing a person offsides, being offsides without looking like you're offsides. Some people may look at that and go, "Well, that's cheating," but no, it's actually just part of the game. Right. Like, playing the ref and understanding that is part of the game. And now it's still part of the game, but it's part of the game in a different way, and that's... Maybe I am just being a purist, but I just, I don't like it. I don't like it. Give me back my beautiful game the way it's always been and get off my lawn, get off the turf, get off my pitch, whatever. Um, I'm denying the fact that the World Cup is not as it's always been. But also, like, we don't need this stuff. Like, the World Cup has been fine for how many years?  [00:11:03] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:11:03] Tony Arsenal: We don't need water breaks like this- W- i- you know, if it was like last World Cup, five players died from dehydration in the middle of the... Like, okay, like yeah, let's do some water breaks. But like, nobody died. Nobody even had major medical emergencies. I think a couple people had to come out of the game a little early 'cause they weren't well-hydrated. But like- Right ... run to the side, get a water bottle. Like, you can do that in the middle of a game. There's nothing- Yeah ... against the rules to stand by the sideline, drink when someone's doing a substitution or even in the middle of the game. I've seen that happen, where someone will sprint over to the sideline, they'll take a drink of water, and then they'll throw the cup back over. So anywho, we should move on. This could be my entire, my entire rant of, for a whole episode- Good ... against the weird changes in, in World Cup soccer, so.  [00:11:48] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, I love it.  [00:11:49] Peacock Spanish Hack [00:11:49] Jesse Schwamb: My favorite hack, uh, for World Cup soccer so far this year, and this was given to me by a colleague, uh, and a brother, I think this is fantastic, is right now because my wife is convalescing, we have all the subscriptions temporarily to allow, like, the full healing process to take place. Watch whatever you want, wherever you want. Except for the World Cup, because the, uh... I- it was just, like, where you could actually get it in English was, like, crazy expensive, at least for me. So here's the thing, though. Somebody reminded me uh, that we have Peacock and that because of Telemundo, could just watch and stream the entire World Cup in Spanish. So guess what, loved ones? We're learning a lot more Spanish- I love it ... and we're watching the World Cup with the announcers on. I'm not turning off that, 'cause that's the best part. And, you know, I'm getting, like, 25% of what's being said, but it is awesome. And there's- Yeah ... a lot more energy and excitement. So if for some reason you have Peacock and you're saying, "Oh, I'm missing the World Cup," technically you don't have to. It's all there for you. That's amazing. Just you gotta embrace Spanish.  [00:12:46] Tony Arsenal: That's amazing. And yes, actually, it probably is more entertaining.  [00:12:49] Jesse Schwamb: It is.  [00:12:50] Tony Arsenal: Um, and you don't, you don't need to... You really don't need to understand what the commentator is- No I mean, like 90% of the time the commentator's like, "Oh, he's having a good year," and, uh- ... yeah, like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, he's looking real great. Do you see how his, uh, laces are laced up?" Like, they're just trying to fill time.  [00:13:05] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:13:05] Tony Arsenal: So it doesn't really matter what they're saying. And when it does matter what they're saying, you'll get it just from the-  [00:13:11] Jesse Schwamb: Yes [00:13:11] Tony Arsenal: just from what the announcer's voices are doing. So I'll have to check that out. Yeah, the, the matches are at weird times, at least so far. I think, I think that once we get out of group play, m- a lot of the matches shift to the East Coast, so there'll be, uh, a little bit more normal times.  [00:13:25] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:13:25] Tony Arsenal: But, like, the first, the first, uh, US match was at 9:00 Eastern Time, and then, like, the last one's at 10:00 Eastern Time. Yeah.  [00:13:32] Jesse Schwamb: So  [00:13:33] Tony Arsenal: late. Yeah, super late, and it's a, it's a three-hour match by the time you, you get done with halftime and everything. So yeah, it'll, it'll... It's, it's frustrating. Although historically, um, every time the men, the men's team has won their first match, they've gotten out of group play, and every time they've lost their fir- first match, they have not gotten out of group play. And we, we really, really won our first match. Yes. Yeah. So I think, I think we'll get out of group play. I think probably, depending on how the, the cards roll, um, we'll probably, we'll probably get through our first elimination round, maybe our second, but we're not gonna go much further than that. Um, even, even that would be a, a pretty good victory, so- Anyway, football is life, right? Danny Ross. Um, do, did you watch Ted last night? Yes,  [00:14:24] Jesse Schwamb: I have seen it. Yes.  [00:14:25] Tony Arsenal: That was good. Football is life. Um, that's me this time of year. Like, I wore a soccer jersey to work on Friday, and nobody could tell me I couldn't do that, and I didn't care. So- I  [00:14:33] Jesse Schwamb: love it ...  [00:14:34] Tony Arsenal: uh, nobody even tried. Everybody, everybody's fine. Everybody loves soccer- How dare they ... and loves the World Cup, so. Yeah. That's the truth. Anywho, save me from this. I, I literally could talk about soccer all night. This is the one sport that I get like this. And the... Not even the one sport. The one sporting event that I get like this about is the World Cup. I love it. So you've gotta, you gotta stop me or I'm not gonna, not gonna stop. Let  [00:14:54] Jesse Schwamb: it out.  [00:14:54] Hydration Tabs Recommendation [00:14:54] Jesse Schwamb: Well, I would say, like, we could play that game with our affirmations and denials where it's, like, six degrees of separation, but we only need one. And this is gonna sound like it was planned, but it wasn't. Your denial, of course, as you've just well articulated, was about hydration breaks. Turns out my affirmation is actually about hydration. So-  [00:15:11] Tony Arsenal: Jesse's affirming hydration breaks. We're about  [00:15:13] Jesse Schwamb: to fight. Yeah. No, I'm, I'm definitely not a- affirming hydration breaks, but this might be the kind of hydration they're having. I don't know, but it's the one I'm gonna recommend. So where I live, it is the summertime, and where I live, we get both the heat and the humidity, and that's the oppressive part, isn't it? It's where it feels like the inside of a dog's mouth. And so I actually just came back from a run, and my go-to hydration break for myself is, uh, Nuun, N-U-U-N. And here's the reason why, is I've had Gatorade, I've had all the... I've had Liquid IV, I've had all that stuff. Most of the time it's r- too sweet. Nuun is just these effervescent dissolvable tablets that you drop into water, and it creates this low sugar electrolyte drink. It has all, like, the normal stuff. It has sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium, chloride, all that good stuff, but there's just one gram of sugar. And it's this convenient little tab. Like, you can just get this whole little roll of tabs. You can carry them with you if you're going hiking or you're camping or you're out and gonna do a run. You just drop them into a bottle of water or whatever size water you want. I usually go 32 ounces is the way I like it. They have all, all kinds of flavors. It's just the right thing. Like, it's... It is like the refreshing thing of water, but when you're like, "You know what? I wanna taste something that's not water." So Nuun is, like, the right thing. I may have referred to it before, so I'm sorry if I did. But I'm referring with you can order it on, like, Amazon or any kind of, I don't know, general kind of camping or sports-oriented store is probably gonna be there. But it's... For me, it's the right thing because I don't know about you, but I find most sports drinks, like, in general too sweet. Like, you, you start... You have one, and then if I get through it, I'm kind of like, "Ugh, now I feel like my mouth is, like, really just coated in sugar, and that's not what I wanted." Yeah. So this feels like you're, you're getting a little less sweetness, but you don't feel guilty afterwards like you've just consumed a bunch of sugar. I will admit, I drink one I guess it's like 12 ounce Gatorade every week, just one. And this is because there's a delightful and loving, like, 72-year-old woman in our congregation who brings, I believe it's her own, she invests this every week. She brings for the team that is doing the worship through music Gatorade, uh, because she thinks we need to be replenished. So really, we have a hydration break- ... right before the service. But she, it's so beautiful and so delightful, I will never refuse it, and I am also on often parched at the time. So-  [00:17:31] Tony Arsenal: Yeah ...  [00:17:31] Jesse Schwamb: it does work out, so.  [00:17:31] Tony Arsenal: Jesse's worship team goes real hard. They need to hydrate in the middle. They do a mandatory hydration break in the middle of the- It's, yeah middle of the service.  [00:17:39] Jesse Schwamb: It's mandatory. Yes. We are strict.  [00:17:41] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And it's an, it's a good time for announcements and commercial breaks. Um, yeah. I, I think, uh, and you're... I don't know if you're gonna believe me when I say this. With all of the Nuun that passes its way around the family home when we're all here- Yeah at summertime, I've never had-  [00:17:57] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, really? ...  [00:17:57] Tony Arsenal: Nuun. Yeah. We never tried it. I think our go-to for, for sort of powdered energy drink or powdered, uh, sports drink is little Propel packets.  [00:18:05] Jesse Schwamb: Um- Oh,  [00:18:05] Tony Arsenal: that's not bad either. Propel's not bad. I like Propel. It's very sweet, but it, it doesn't- Yeah ... um, Propel- doesn't add sugar. I think that they've, they've got their formula where it's a sugar-free formula. Um, but it is very sweet. So sometimes I'll only do, like, a half a packet of Propel- Yeah ... which I know kind of, they, they argue that or they, like, advertise as, like, "It's the perfect balance of electro-" I don't know if it's the perfect balance of electrolytes, but- Um, but some is better than none probably. Yeah. And, uh, Propel is not better than Nuun apparently, so.  [00:18:36] Jesse Schwamb: I, I, I think Nuun is, like, top shelf electrolyte. And you can get it, like I said, in lots of flavors. One of the fun things is you can get it caffeinated or uncaffeinated. I mean, most, most of it is uncaffeinated. But if you're like you wanted to have some, they have a what they call Kona Cola, and it is cola-flavored and has caffeine. It's amazing, because it's, like, just slightly effervescent, a little bit bubbly. Not too much. It's still, like, refreshing, but if you like the cola flavor, which as you know is its own distinct combination of elements and spices, then it's right on. So- Yeah ... it's really nice. So there you go. Yeah. Nuun- I- And if you're gonna take a hydration break because you're being forced to while you're playing soccer, I highly suggest you choose Nuun. That's the way to go.  [00:19:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what they're drinking. I think most of the time they're just drinking water.  [00:19:26] Jesse Schwamb: Probably.  [00:19:26] Tony Arsenal: So I, I don't... I mean, I, I think you're supposed to drink something with some electrolytes, so maybe they have some electrolyte-  [00:19:32] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah ...  [00:19:32] Tony Arsenal: water in it. I don't know.  [00:19:33] Jesse Schwamb: I don't know. Probably.  [00:19:34] Join the Telegram Group [00:19:34] Jesse Schwamb: Here's the thing. If you wanna tell us what you like to drink or when you are, let's say, serving the Lord's people by participating in worship through music and you're forced to take a hydration break, as I am at times, then you need to go to t.me\reformedbrotherhood. Put that into your browser right now. Take a hydration break and put t.me\reformedbrotherhood into your browser and that will send you to a link for Telegram, which is just a little chat app in which we have a small corner of the world. It's brothers and sisters listening to the podcast, interacting, and it's about time, actually, we probably had some kinda taste test stuff-  [00:20:11] Tony Arsenal: Yeah with,  [00:20:12] Jesse Schwamb: like, these kinda hydration drinks. There's so many of them now. Some of them are, like, purposely salty. Some of them are really sweet. Some have all these crazy and wild flavors. Some of them have all kinds of caffeine. So let us know what you like, but best way to do that- Please ... is join the Telegram group. [00:20:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And please do not, uh, do not make your church stop their service for a hydration break. Please don't do that. The only hydration break I wanna hear you talking about in your church service is a baptism. So please-  [00:20:38] Jesse Schwamb: I knew that's  [00:20:38] Tony Arsenal: where you were going ... do not interrupt the Lord's day for a hydration break. Just if you need water, just, like, step out of the room, take a drink of water, come back. Or if you're in a church that lets you have water in the sanctuary, like most do, just take a drink. That's true. You don't have to- Yeah ... stand up. You don't need to have- That's good ... anyone interpret. Just take a quick drink and then be quiet. Just  [00:20:54] Jesse Schwamb: go to the sidelines, maybe sub out- Mm-hmm ... with somebody else who can play bass, and take a quick drink.  [00:21:00] Tony Arsenal: Exactly. Come back. Yeah. Or just dump the, dump the Propel powder straight in your mouth.  [00:21:05] Jesse Schwamb: I thought you were gonna say like have somebody come up, preferably like an elder, and just hose you down with a thing of Gatorade while you're, while you're  playing  [00:21:10] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, exactly. Just go up to the baptismal font, take a scoop of water, dump the Propel directly in the baptis- no, I'm just kidding. I shouldn't joke about that stuff. Yeah.  [00:21:19] Back to Matthew 25 [00:21:19] Tony Arsenal: Anyway, Jesse, I'm excited because although we are probably gonna round out this parable, we're not done with these parables because- Oh, yeah, that's  [00:21:28] Jesse Schwamb: right [00:21:28] Tony Arsenal: although we're gonna finish this parable this week, we'll probably finish it and get started talking about, uh, the next, the little chunk of text, which is not a parable, but we can't really, uh, divorce it from these parables 'cause they're all telling, they're all making the same or a very similar point about what the kingdom of heaven will be like in relation to the end times- Mm-hmm in relation to the eschatological, um, outcome of all things. Uh, and, and Christ in his teaching, um, he kind of rounds out this teaching and finalizes what these parables mean by talking to us about the sheep and the goats. Um, which again, is not really formed like a parable, but, uh, but it has very similar structures. It has some similar elements to it. Um, but it, it's so integral to what these, all what this sort of like, uh, anthology of eschatological parables mean in all the discourse. We really have to cover that to, to cover the others fully. But tonight we're gonna finish our discussion about the parable of the talents, which I'm excited about because I think we're gonna, we're gonna round out on some stuff that, um, I, I hope you've heard, uh, is probably not as, um, prominent as it should be. Uh, and this, we talked about last time that this parable has been, uh, not necessarily applied properly in many popular- Right ... teachings. Uh, and so I'm, I'm sure you've heard not so great interpretations. Hopefully we're gonna give you an interpretation that's a little bit more accurate and faithful to what the Bible teaches. [00:23:00] Reading the Parable Text [00:23:00] Jesse Schwamb: And so we're gonna pick it up in verse 24 of Matthew 25, because you'll probably recall, and if you haven't it's because you need to go back and listen, that we talked about the first two of these servants and the return that they were able to garner on the investment which the Lord gave them when He went away. And then there's the third dude. So we're gonna pick it up there and go all the way to the end of this, which allow us to close it out. So beginning verse 24, "And the one also had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you'd be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. And I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. See, have what is yours.' But the master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave. You knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed; therefore you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have at least received my money back with interest. Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has 10 talents. For to everyone who has more, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who does not have, even what he does not have,' excuse me, 'what he does have shall be taken away. And throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness. In that place, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'"  [00:24:18] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:24:19] Textual Notes and Transition [00:24:19] Tony Arsenal: There, there's some, um, some textual things about this that I think, uh, we sh- should at least acknowledge. I don't know that we're gonna dig too deep into them. Um, it is very possible to, um, to read verse 30 Almost as an interpretive statement in itself rather than part of the, um, part of the parable itself. And, and so let me, let me see if I can, can parse that out. So if we read it as though it's part of the parable, then it is the s- the, the master in the parable who is saying, "And cast the worthless servant into the darkness; in the place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." I think that's the most natural reading, so I'll, I'll put my cards on the table that I think that we should read this as part of the parable itself. It's also possible linguistically and grammatically to sort of read this as an explanation, where Christ is now taking this principle of what has happened with the worthless servant, right? That even what he has will be taken away. And then, and then to sort of read this as a commentary that sort of, uh, like we saw before, um, kind of bridges this section with the next. So instead of reading, "And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness," uh, as though it were part of the parable, that it was this master within the parable saying this, we can read this as Christ saying that this is what will happen to those who are worthless servants. And then that follows up with, in verse 31, kind of h- connecting to when the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. Before Him will be gathered all nations. Right. Th- this next sort of, like, more explicit, non-parabolical, um, uh, eschatological teaching. I think that former one is more natural, but just because it's, it's present in a lot of the commentaries that this is there, I wanted to at least call that out. I don't know that it makes a ton of difference in terms of how we understand the parable, but I do think, you know, part of what it means for us to wrestle through this is not just to take a particular position on the text, but to discuss, like, some of these ambiguities that are present. Um, and, and sometimes, um Sometimes I think we need to be cautious and really think through, because, uh, let me, let me rephrase it this way. None of the teaching in the Bible is sort of uninterpreted, untranslated, raw teaching of Christ. All of this is coming to us from the apostles retelling it, and yes, inspired by the Holy Spirit, so all of it's God's Word. But it's not as though, um, it's not as though Christ was first speaking in Greek. That's the big thing. But there are some places in the New Testament, in the Gospels, where it's not always clear whether a passage is Christ speaking or the, uh, the Gospel writer interpreting what Christ is speaking. This is one of those places where there's a little bit of a question mark about that. Um, again, I think the most natural reading is to read this as part of the statement of the master within the parable, but I did wanna just comment on that before we moved on much further.  [00:27:31] Buried Talent Scandal [00:27:31] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's helpful because I think we've gotta understand that end in light of how it's evolving. And we, we're starting with that stark contrast between the first two, which receive this great reward, which receive accolades and praise, and then you have this one talent servant's response is all about hiddenness. He just digs a hole, puts it in the ground, and hides it away. Which by the way, of course, we talked about this in the other parables, like in the ancient world, burying valuables was recognized as a form of safekeeping. I mean, I think even Josephus mentions that. We talk about the pearl of great price. There was something to be known for, well, I have this valuable thing. The best place for me to, the best place for me to put it so that it isn't compromised is in the ground, in a secret place. And there's like a surface level, I guess, reasonableness to that act. But what's interesting and where it comes in with that heat that you're kinda talking about, that ends up being in the end this grand statement of the eschatological, eschatological reality, is that the parable here with this one talent servant treats all that action as like complete catastrophic failure. And I, I think as much as I can understand it, it's because the master did not give him this talent to protect it from loss. He gave it to him for, to use it for gain And so the servant has mistaken the nature of that commission entirely. He substituted like the security-seeking for risk-taking faithfulness. And so I think that informs some of then what happens in these latter verses here, like when we get all the way down to 30. Because I think when we read that, we see the, like the redistribution as scandalous. But the scandal really is in this lack of actions. Like gifts exercised grow, but gifts buried, they just atrophy. So the one t- talent servant's talent is taken because he's, he's already been treated as n- as it was, was nothing. He's functionally like forfeited it by burying it. And so the transfer of the 10-talent servant is the formal confirmation of what his own choices had, had already produced. I think there is something there about like the eschatological reality, reality that will unfold in the judgment, which of course leads to, into the end of this chapter  [00:29:36] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right on that.  [00:29:39] Misreading The Master [00:29:39] Tony Arsenal: Um, what we see the problem with the one talent servant is not, um, not that he's not productive.  [00:29:49] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:29:49] Tony Arsenal: I mean, I think that's, that's actually the symptom of the illness, not the illness itself. What we see with the, the one talent servant is that he misunderstands his task, as you're pointing out, but more foundationally, he misunderstands his master, right? And that, that's really the, the main point of the parable when we kinda get... You know, Christ, um, when He's telling a parable, He explains the parable. Sometimes He doesn't explain the parable at all. He just sorta drops the parable and then moves on. Other times He will give the interpretation itself, like directly. We saw that in the parable of the, uh, of the soils or the parable of the sower. Um, and, and other times the kind of like the main explanation of the parable is, is actually embedded in the parable. And I think for this parable, the main explanation is when the, the one talent servant, uh, comes forward and he, when he's explaining why he did what he did-  [00:30:47] Jesse Schwamb: Right [00:30:48] Tony Arsenal: he says, "Well, I knew you were a," uh, let me just find it for sure here. He says, um, "I knew that you were a..." I just lost it. My brain is totally lost here. You ever have that happen where you're trying to find a word- Yes ... on a text and you just can't? He says, "Master," in verse 24, he says, "Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. So I was afraid. I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours." There's a number of statements in here that just don't make any sense. Like, they're just... Like you said, a lot of these parables have kind of like a chump figure, where, like, he's sort of like the designated idiot of the parable. [00:31:31] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:31:32] Tony Arsenal: In this instance, there's so much wrong that it's almost hard to find something right. And, you know, he starts out, he says, "I knew you were a hard man." There's nothing in the parable, there's nothing that suggests that this is a hard man. There's nothing to suggest that. He, as we said last week, he trusts these servants with an almost unimaginable amount of wealth, right? He just leaves hundreds of years worth of wealth in the, in the, like... And it's not even like he's going off to war and he may never be coming back. He's just going on a journey.  [00:32:05] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:32:05] Tony Arsenal: He's just traveling for a little while, and he's like, "I'm gonna leave 100 years worth of labor with this guy and 40 years worth of labor with this guy and 20 years worth of labor with this guy." He, what, what, in what world is that a hard man who just blesses and trusts his servants with that amount of unimaginable wealth? But then he says, "I knew that you, uh, reaped where you did not sow and gathered where you scattered no seed." First of all, um, what kind of person accumulates this kind of wealth without reaping, uh, without the, like, a- apart from the principle of reaping and sowing and gathering and, and scattering? Like, he obviously is a very successful businessman. Um, the, the fact that this, uh, servant is couching this in agricultural terms, I think it's reasonable to think that this is a very successful landowner who has made good use of his land, has turned a profit Obviously he's reaping where he sows and he's gathering where he scattered or he wouldn't have this kind of money to throw around to leave with his servants in the first place. But the servant doesn't recognize that the fact that he was given one talent is in fact the master reaping or sowing and scattering the seed of these talents. So he's saying like, "Well, you reap where you have not sown," but the fact is like he was sown a full talent worth of resources and he, the, the master expected to reap what he had sown when he gets back. So this servant He's worthless and he's lazy, but he's also just kind of dumb in that he just doesn't- Right ... recognize the reality of what's going on. He has an incorrect understanding of who the master is. He thinks he's a hard man, when actually he's an incredibly trusting and generous master, right? The, the ESV masks this as servants. We're not talking about hired hands here. We're talking about slaves. Right. We're talking about h- probably about household slaves. This is doulos. These are the slaves that work in the fields, um, as opposed to, like, diakonos, which are the slaves that work in the house, right? These are, these are field servants. These are laborers that are indentured or are, are in servitude, and he gives them enough wages, enough labor, enough money, they could just take off and leave with it. They could buy their own freedom with this. Right. He trusts them with that. That's not a description of a hard man, a hard, lazy man who sows w- reaps where he doesn't sow and gathers where he doesn't scatter. So the primary issue here with this servant is not that he's lazy, although he is lazy. It's not that he's wicked. He is wicked. It's that he doesn't recognize who the master is. He doesn't understand who the master is and what is expected of him as a servant of that master, which I think, I think, as I've thought about this over the last week or so, I think that actually says everything about the eschatological import of this, right? Yes. Who is it that's not going to be saved in the last day?  [00:34:56] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:34:57] Tony Arsenal: It's the people who don't recognize the master. Right on. The people who think that the master is a hard man who reaps where he has not sown and gathers where he has not scattered. Well, if we think that's who God is, we have a lot of trouble coming our way. [00:35:10] Fearful False Theology [00:35:10] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that is the heart, right, of this dude's sin. It's a false theology of God that produces then this fearful inaction. Because, like you said, it's not just that he's been lazy. He has constructed this weird, distorted picture of his master, and then he allows that distortion to govern his behavior. So this, quote-unquote, "fear" is not like the fear of the Lord that is the beginning of wisdom, but it's this kind of craven dread that's rooted in a mischaracterization of the master's entire character. And one of the things that I think, among many, that's really great about the Reformed theological tradition is that it's always assisted, and I th- hopefully we along with it in our conversations, that, like, the right theology is not merely academic. It does shape the whole life, which is why, like, Calvin famously opens his institutes with this observation that the knowledge of God and the knowledge of self are bound together. So- Yeah ... a person who genuinely knows the living God as gracious, generous, long-suffering, with that kind of hesed kind of love, who is good- W- that person will be motivated to active, trusting faithfulness. A person who privately believes God to be harsh and demanding is always, I think, going to retreat in this fearful, minimal kind of minimum champion-type compliance. It's the same thing, I think I always think about this for some reason, and mention it a lot probably, but it's the same thing with Joseph's brothers finding all their money back in the sacks-  [00:36:31] Tony Arsenal: Yeah ...  [00:36:32] Jesse Schwamb: with their food. It's, like, in that instant moment, all they have is fear and dread. And it- for this guy, that's exactly what he has. But it doesn't start, like you're saying, merely because he realizes that he should have done more, or he's comparing his return with that of everybody else, or even that he's going back and taking a look at his own actions and finding them to be full of want or lack. In fact, he does a really good job, at least in his own mind, theologically justifying his behavior. So here, what he, the real crime, the real shame, the real sin is that somehow he views the master as harsh and demanding and exploitative. That's wild. But of course, that was the root of everything else, which I think does give us pause to reflect on our own lives, like I said, as we come to understanding how this parable reads us. [00:37:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:37:21] Red Letters And Commentary [00:37:21] Tony Arsenal: And, um- Part of the reason why I think it's important to understand what I was talking about earlier with, you know, the, the Gospels are an interesting sort of like composite document in that, yes, they contain the true sayings of Jesus, the true, true, um, words of Christ. But this is also, a- and I promise that this will loop back around, this is, um, this is important for us. The red letters are no more God's word than the black letters, right? Mm-hmm. And what I mean by that is, like, the, the so-called words of Christ in scripture are not more inspired or more profitable than the words that are the commentary of the apostles. And I only say so-called, and I'll explain why I say that. As I said, like, Matthew is translating, uh, he- first of all, he's recalling what Christ has said. He's, he's probably not, um, sitting there with a, with a quill and a, you know, a piece of paper or a piece of parchment- Right ... transcribing what's, what Christ is saying as he goes. Right? He's, he was there. Matthew was there. He's recalling what Christ has said under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. He's making editorial decisions about what Christ taught in terms of like, what of Christ's teaching do I capture? What do I summarize? And I think there's ... It's important because every word is inspired, but also it's understandable. And what I mean here, and what, the reason I'm kind of belaboring that is I think there's an interesting thing that happens in verse 29. It says, "For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance. And from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken." So this, this concept actually that, um, that verse 30 might be, uh, might actually be Matthew's commentary or even Christ's explanation of the parable, I think that actually, that actually expands to verse 29 in some of the commentators. So if we read it this way, and I think this, this may be valuable for us to at least ponder. If we read it this way, verse 27 is still the master in the parable space. It says, "Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. So take the talent from him and give it to him who has 10 talents." There's a way of understanding this text, uh, and it's grammatically acceptable. I think theologically it doesn't change a lot, but it's worth us at least considering this. There's a way of reading this text where that's the end of the parable, and then Christ is explaining the parable, or Ma- or even maybe Matthew is commenting on the parable. It says, "For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance. But to the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away." Now, I think that, um, as I said, the most natural way to read this is that the parable proper ends with verse 30, that all of this is part of the parable, all of this is the master in the parable speaking. But I do think verses 29 and 30 take on a more explanatory, um, uh, explanatory role, and this is the main reason why. The, the one parable, one talent servant in the parable, he's not properly described as the one who has not, right? He had one talent. He was given one talent. Right. It's not as though he had zero talents. The one who has not, even what he has will be taken away, and the one who has, more will be given.  [00:41:01] Has And Has Not [00:41:01] Tony Arsenal: This is actually, I think, where we can go really sideways on this parable. I hear this parable often interpreted as sort of this understanding that, like, God has blessed His people with certain gifts, and we have to use our gifts in the kingdom to be productive, and people who use their gifts in productive fashion will be given more responsibility and more opportunities. People who don't use their gifts, whatever opportunities they have will be taken away from them. Now, I, I would argue that's probably true on a practical level, um, and that's just actually just true in general, right? Right. A person who has responsibility, th- think of, like, your working environment. M- you know, all, most of our listeners are not working in regular pastoral ministry. This is one of those areas where I think, actually, the corporate world is more representative of how things are. Um, in the corporate world, if you are given responsibility and you excel and use that responsibility well and you are a productive servant of your company that you work for, you're going to be given more responsibility, whether that's in the form of a promotion, which is the ideal circumstances, or whether that's just your responsibilities as assigned, a job description expanding without pay. Either way, if you do a good job, if you, if you take the sphere of influence, the sphere of responsibility that you're given and you do a good job and you shepherd that well and you steward that well, that sphere of influence, that sphere of responsibility will expand. Um- If you squander it and you sit in your office watching TikTok videos or listening to music and you don't use that, uh, responsibility well, that sphere of influence will shrink, and ultimately it will shrink until you no longer have a job, right? It works a little differently, I think, in, like, traditional pastoral roles, and I think there are some in our audience that, them, are in those roles that this may not fit. That's a good general principle. I don't think that's what this is teaching. Like, I don't think this, this parable is about, like, productive ministry opportunities. Right. And if it was, we wouldn't be talking about people who have none, have not, right? We would be talking about people who have less. We'd be talking about people who are given less responsibility. The person who has no responsibility is who's in view here. And that's why- Mm ... I think it actually, this is shifting, this ex- explanation, whether it's, uh, sort of like an explanation, an explanatory punchline to the parable that's part of the parable itself, or whether it's Jesus or Matthew commenting on the meaning of the parable. The difference between those two things is important for us to think about. It's not so important in terms of what the actual meaning is. Because the difference here is that what we've now done is we've shifted from the context of a financial grounded analogy in the parable to now a broader discussion about the fact that there are those who have, and there are those who have not. And the people who have will be given more, and the people who have not will be taken away from. And if we were talking strictly financially, then now we're, like, in, like, Occupy Wall Street, 1% kind of era. We're talking about salvation. We're talking about, um, we're talking about the fact that God gives salvation to some, and He does not give salvation to others. He gives grace to some, and He does not give grace to others. And to those who have grace, more grace will be given. To those who have not grace, more will be taken away. And the outcome of that- Is that the worthless servant who is the one who has not, the worthless servant will be cast into the outer darkness, right? This is a, an explanation of what it means to be a worthless servant who ultimately ends their time. Ends is not the right word. Who ultimately has the outcome of s- of outer darkness for all eternity. If this parable is just about how we use our giftings and our skills and our money for the kingdom, and we're expected to be productive and to, like, increase the kingdom through our tithing and through our, like our service, then this comment about, like, the outer darkness is really out of place. Unless, unless we earn our salvation by that. Which of course we know we don't.  [00:45:22] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Right.  [00:45:24] Wicked And Slothful Heart [00:45:24] Jesse Schwamb: Here's how I think everything you said is true, and the scripture actually bears this out because it was exactly where you're going with that, which is we're talking more about the identity. Like, what, what makes this servant or slave worthless? That's the critical question. And then if we understand that, it'll help inform how we then interpret this idea of sheeps and goats, which we'll get to in a whole other episode. But if you look at verses 26 and 27, where the master then responds to this slave calls him wicked and slothful, slothful, right? So that his, his basically lack of usefulness comes embedded or underneath those two terms. So one, obviously the wickedness here is moral. It's a failure to fulfill a covenantal obligation to the master, which we've been talking about. So again, it's not just about laziness. Like there's, there's so much more there. It's as if that's the entry point for the master to bring condemnation on him in two forms. One is that wickedness. The second is this idea of like slothfulness, which is dispen- I was gonna say dispensational, but what I meant to say is dispositional. So it's like, uh, like a subtle inertia of the will, and together they're describing a person, and I think this is a critical point. This is a person whose heart has never been genuinely aligned with the master's purposes. Now, when we understand it that way, I think, then everything that follows makes a lot more sense because it's not just about bad timing in the market. It's not just about being fearful that you're gonna lose money and you're risk-averse, so therefore you hid, hid everything. It's really this idea that this, this s- slave, this one talent slave, he was not on board, not vibing with, not aligned with, however you wanna say it, with the master's purposes from the very beginning. And there is maybe we might say like a minimum of faithfulness, even interest on the deposit that God requires. But the question of course is never am I doing what the five talent servant does, but it's always am I using what I have been given? And in this way, like are we finding ourselves aligned, that our hearts are leaning into, that we find ourselves tilting towards what God has for us, both understanding who He is and who we are in light of who He is. What I find interesting is I found some really unique commentary from the great puritan William Ames in his book Conscience, with the Power and Cases Thereof. That's a title that only a puritan could- ... forward, um, where he actually treats this failure. So getting again to the sense of like why is it so grievous? Like in other words, why does the action of this servant, which we've already kind of touched on, lead into basically a character attack on the servant, and why is the connection between those two things legitimate? What he basically says is that he treats the failure to use one's gifts as God has given as a violation of the ninth commandment, which is bearing false witness against God's own estimation of those gifts. So this slothful servant, by burying his talent, effectively says, "This is not worth using." That is like the thing that God has given me, who God is Himself, I reject fully and outright. So why would that person then not be cast into outer darkness in kind of keeping with both like the, the breadth and scope of this parable, but also essentially what it's teaching about who this last, you know, servant is? [00:48:33] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and you know, as you say that, I think too, um- There's an element of this that is Because it ties to this servant's misunderstanding of the master, and then, a- and I think you're, you're bringing Calvin in here and, and sort of the idea that our knowledge of God and our kn- knowledge of self are so, like, intertwined that it- Right ... it's almost difficult to understand which comes first. Yes. Yes. Calvin concludes that the knowledge of God is logically prior, but he, he also acknowledges that, like, it's really tough to sort of like figure out which one is more logically prior. This servant starts from the understanding that the master is a wicked master, that he is an immoral, lazy master. I- and it's, it's ironic. It does- the text doesn't say this, but I think it's a reasonable extrapolation. Um, the, the wicked, slothful servant projects his own wickedness and his own slothfulness onto the master, right? He, he projects that the master is a wicked man, is a hard man, and also that he's lazy. He, he does- he reaps where he doesn't sow, he gathers where he doesn't scatter. And the action of the, of the, the character of the servant is not derived from his inaction. Right. It's his inaction that- Yes ... causes the, or it's his, his character- Character ... that drives his lack of action, right?  [00:50:12] Sheep Goats Identity [00:50:12] Tony Arsenal: The good and faithful servants, they're not, and this is where we're gonna come when we come next week. Like, this is where we're gonna go when we get to next week's. Just as maybe, like, I, I want you to listen next week, but you probably don't need to, 'cause I'm gonna give you the whole punchline here.  [00:50:27] Jesse Schwamb: Wow.  [00:50:27] Tony Arsenal: The sheep act like sheep because they're sheep.  [00:50:29] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:50:30] Tony Arsenal: They don't become sheep because they do sheep things. They do sheep things because they're sheep, and the goats do goat things because they're goats.  [00:50:37] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:50:37] Tony Arsenal: The wicked, lazy servant does wicked, lazy servant things because he's a wicked lady- lazy servant, right? He buries the talent in the ground because he's a wicked, lazy servant. The good, faithful servants j- just do what good, faithful servants do. They, they make a return on the master's talents because that's what they do, right? And I think where we have to be really careful and where, uh, the other pitfall that this parable can bring us to, and I kinda referenced it a little bit earlier, is there can be sort of this subtle works righteousness that creeps in, that we can believe if we're really good and productive for the kingdom, then that's what will earn us the good and faithful servant commendation when we, we cross into glory. The reality is there are those who cross into glory and hear good and faithful servant, right? There are those who will hear, "Well done, good and faithful servant. Enter into the joy of your master." And there are those who will not. They will have what little they have taken away from them, and they will be cast into the outer darkness where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth, right? That's not a statement on what we've earned. It's a statement on who we are.  [00:51:48] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:51:49] Tony Arsenal: So you can either be the faithful servant who trusts the character of the Lord, who doesn't think Him to be a hard man, who reaps where He doesn't sow and gathers where He doesn't scatter. You can trust the master, and in the act of trusting the master and knowing His character, you just do what good, faithful servants do. You work hard, you follow the servant, the master's lead, and you produce a return on what is there. Right? In, a- and we didn't talk about this too much. In effect, these servants are reflecting the nature of the master.  [00:52:23] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:52:23] Tony Arsenal: Because you don't get to the point where you can leave 100 years worth of wealth to one servant, and 40 years worth of wealth to another servant, and 20 years worth of wealth to another servant if you have not yourself been a productive, faithful person who knows how to reap and sow appropriately, right? [00:52:42] Gospel Joy Or Darkness [00:52:42] Tony Arsenal: That is the key to this parable, is that the faithful servants image their master, and the wicked lo- like, slothful servant images what he thinks his master is This is the gospel call in this passage, right? The f- the, the faithful servants trusted their master. They trusted he was good. They trusted that he, they would be rewarded when he returned if they did a good job. Now, he- they're not rewarded necessarily because they do a good job. I mean, I think the text kinda seems like that. Right. But, but, but He just says, "You, look, you guys are good, faithful servants." He doesn't give them, like, a share of the profits. They're not, like, stakeholders in this. He just says, "Enter into my joy." Right? What, what does that mean? I don't know. It means enter into the same joy that the master has.  [00:53:29] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:53:30] Tony Arsenal: The, what the slothful servant doesn't get, he doesn't get to participate in the joy of the master, right? What little he has is taken away from him. He's cast out of the presence of the master. He doesn't get to participate in that joy. This is a picture, loved ones, of what the gospel is, and more poignantly, it's a picture of what it means to be lost. It's a picture w- of what it means to be outside of the grace of God, to be outside of His kingdom, is that we, we just n- not only are we wicked and sloth, which is its own kind of punishment. We're wicked and slothful, and we don't get to participate in the joy of the master. Instead, we get this outer darkness outside of His presence. Right. We're gonna talk more about what that means, because Christ pivots to now this more still kind of analogical, but more explicit teaching on what that looks like and what it means to be a productive member of the kingdom, what it means to be a faithful servant, what it means to be a wise virgin, what it means to be the, the person who seeks the pearl of great price. Like, all of these parables we've talked about, He now in the Olivet Discourse in verses 31 and following, He's going to give us the payout of what that actually means. What does the faithful servant look like in our real world? We're not talking parables. We're not talking images. We're talking about what it actually looks like to be the faithful servant who will enjoy the, the presence and the joy of the master. That's what we're gonna get into next week. So-  [00:55:02] Between The Advents [00:55:02] Jesse Schwamb: And so it helps us to probably- So- ... end where we began, which was with a reminder that these parables are fundamentally about how to live between those two advents. Yeah. Christ has ascended. He's gone on a journey. He will return. The master's coming back And the church lives in this meantime, and this parable defines what the meantime requires. Active, proportional, courageous stewardship. And the Reformed tradition, following people like Augustine and the Magisterial Reformers, have always insisted, and I love this, that eschatology is not a distraction from ethics, but it's the ground of ethics itself. Yes. And so we serve faithfully- Yes and amen because the master is returning. And next time we're gonna get to what that all looks like when he does return, when he calls everyone to give an account. What are the theological outworkings of this entire parable after he's explained what it means to live between the advents?  [00:55:56] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, and the, the last thing I'll say before we try to figure out how to transition this into some sort of way to say- That should be fun our tagline.  [00:56:04] No Works Righteousness [00:56:04] Tony Arsenal: Um, it's so important for us to understand This is not a way for us to earn righteousness, right? Right. This is not a way for us to merit our justification, and, and I think this is something where there is some disagreement in the Reformed world. I want to acknowledge that. This is not a way for us to become more sanctified, right? I don't become more sanctified because I do good works, right? Justification, sanctification are both dual benefits that we receive m- from the Holy Spirit by faith in Christ alone, right? I don't sanctify myself any more than I justify myself or any more than I'm gonna raise myself from the dead. There is a way to read this parable where even if you're couching it in frames of sanctification where somehow we're doing that to ourselves, the reality is the faithful servants do what they do because they're faithful- That's right not because that's what makes them faithful.  [00:56:59] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Exactly.  [00:57:00] Tony Arsenal: Right? And we're g- like I said, we're gonna pay that out a little bit more next week when we talk about the sheep and the goats, but it's important for us not to let that sit. Any interpretation of this passage that has us understanding our final eschatological destination or our final sort of, like, nature as servants of God in somehow referring to the way we've served really is not a Protestant and especially not a Reformed hermeneutic of this text. Right. At the end of the day, the wicked, slothful servant is that because that's what he is. His actions flow out of his nature, not the other way around. So I'm super excited. I mean, I think, as I said before, we're coming up to the end of Matthew. We're kind of finishing up the Matthean parables. Um, we're gonna dip into some of the more unique ones. If I'm being honest, like, we could end this series now because the parables in Matthew really form the backbone of Christ's parabolic ministry, his parabolic teaching. Right. The other parables that we see in the other gospels really are kind of like flavor text or like, I don't know, like, uh, deleted endings, deleted scenes if you wanna use like a movie term. They're additional commentary on the parables, the main parabolic teaching of Christ.  [00:58:20] Study Scripture Together [00:58:20] Tony Arsenal: Um, and, and I'm, I'm excited to get there, but this has been such an edifying, just like really like soul-quenching series for me because as I've said before, we, we haven't... I have not spent as much time working through these parables verse by verse and just really, like, thinking about them deeply as I would've liked to. So I've loved that we've really spent that time in this series. Maybe we're just gonna become like a Bible study podcast and I'm fine with that. Because like- I love it ... I love systematic theology, and that's really my wheelhouse. I love- Mm-hmm ... historical theology. I love talking about the Confessions. But there's been something so- Soul feeding, like soul quenching Yes, life-giving About just digesting God's Word together Right So I wanna echo Jesse's recommendation earlier. If you're looking for someone to come- somewhere to come chat about this stuff, t.me/reformedbrotherhood. It's a great place to bring up biblical questions or just to digest biblical texts together. But even more so, like Take the Bible, read it, grab a friend from church and just say, "Can we just, like, work through this together and talk about it?" [00:59:25] Jesse Schwamb: Mm. ' [00:59:25] Tony Arsenal: Cause nothing beats going through these slowly and just saying like, "Let's really think through what this text means."  [00:59:33] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:59:33] Tony Arsenal: And I just don't think we do that as much as we maybe should.  [00:59:36] Jesse Schwamb: I agree with you. And of course, like, because we're people that wanna be learned, because we are readers, because we wanna understand and gather knowledge, it sometimes causes us to quickly run to other resources, not exclusively, but sometimes outside of the Holy Spirit. So what you just said, I was really struck with the conviction of grab somebody and open up that time by just asking that the Holy Spirit, he would illuminate, captivate, open up these scriptures to you and to those with whom you're speaking, which is often how we pray for this conversation, that that's exactly what God would do. And so we hope that he's doing that. We hope there was something in here, and if there was anything good, all of that belongs to God. The mistakes are clearly ours. But we hope that you will take this conversation and pull it into your own life. I have to ask, when you were talking about what we're gonna talk about next week, did you actually say we're gonna, like, pay it forward? Did you... Was that, like, a pun that you were also using, or did that just happen?  [01:00:30] Tony Arsenal: No, I think it just happened. I don't think I meant to even say that. We'll just call that providence.  [01:00:34] Jesse Schwamb: Oh, so... That was so good. I love that.  [01:00:37] Support And Sendoff [01:00:37] Jesse Schwamb: There's one other place you can go and hang out, and that is the podcast does have a website. Sometimes we don't talk about it, but that's because it's, like, the best-kept secret on the entire internet. I'm not being parabolic or hyperbolic at all. And if you go to reformedbrotherhood.com, what you're gonna do is find that all the episodes, all of them, are living right there. They're for you. They're just there hanging out, waiting for you to search them with keywords for something that we've probably talked about maybe eight or 10 years ago. It's all there. You can find it. So if it's been a while and you've thought, "You know what? I wonder if there's ever been a conversation about this," if you even just wanna play the game, pick a word and go in there- ... and see what pops up. You can go find all those. And what you'll also discover is that shockingly, they're all free. There's no cost- Yeah ... to those whatsoever. And that happens because so many loved ones join us in making sure that all the costs are covered. So my last commendation to you all is if you're thinking, "You know what? I've been listening for a little while," or maybe it's the first time, and you think, "I wanna make sure that this keeps going," we'd be so thankful if you wanna support the ministry in doing that. And you can just go to the website, and there's a little link. You'll find your way. But it is available to those who would say, "You know what? I'd like to make sure that this is available to everybody without cost, without price, with no money. Come and listen." And that's how it's always gonna be here. You'll notice there is no insertion for a weird purple mattress commercial. Nor will there ever be. I mean, unless they wanna give us a lot of money maybe, maybe we, maybe we would accept that. But no, we will not do that, Purple. We will never do that. You  [01:02:10] Tony Arsenal: could not give me enough money to endorse Purple Mattress- even though I'm sitting on a Purple Mattress and it's wicked comfortable. I get zero dollars for that.  [01:02:19] Jesse Schwamb: Zero. Zero. So I-  [01:02:21] Tony Arsenal: Unless they wanna give us some money. If somehow you are an executive at Purple and wanna give us some money, we will take your money.  [01:02:27] Jesse Schwamb: A- and listen, we will not bury it. We will, we will use it- as best we can, by God's grace, for His lovely and conquering, overwhelmingly filled with love kingdom. We will absolutely do that. And of course, we're gonna come to the real conclusion of all of this talk, all of this parable stuff next time. So even though Tony gave us, like, the reverse tease and the permission not to listen to that episode  [01:02:51] Tony Arsenal: Please listen. Please listen to that episode.  [01:02:54] Jesse Schwamb: It's gonna be good. I can say right now it's gonna be good because God is good.  [01:02:58] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I, I can say that God is good because we're the worst podcasters ever- That's true ... in terms of, like, our call to action is always the very last thing we do. Uh, we- we're always just, like, like, uh, the fact that anybody gives us any money is a, is a miracle- We break all the rules because nobody who is listening to this show is still logged in to our episode. So just to wrap it up, because I don't know where we're going, I don't know how to finish this. Take us home. I'm just gonna say, Jesse, until next time, honor everyone.  [01:03:26] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood. 
• 
  Parable of the Talents: Why the Wicked Servant's Problem Is Theological, Not Financial 12.06.2026 1h 10min

  In Episode 496 of the Reformed Brotherhood, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb open with a rich discussion on the theology of congregational singing — including the Trinity Psalter Hymnal, the Getty's Sing!, and why psalm-singing belongs at the heart of Christian worship. The main event, however, is the first installment of their study of the Parable of the Talents (Matthew 25:14–30). Tony and Jesse argue that this parable is widely misread as a lesson in personal productivity or spiritual gift deployment, when in fact its center of gravity is entirely eschatological and theological: the wicked servant's failure is not financial incompetence — it is a catastrophic misunderstanding of who the master is, and therefore, who he himself is as a servant of that master. Key Takeaways The parable is eschatological, not motivational. Situated in Matthew 25 as the second of three eschatological parables in the Olivet Discourse, the Parable of the Talents answers the disciples' question about the sign of Christ's coming — not a general lesson about using your abilities for God. "Talents" refers to an enormous monetary sum, not personal giftedness. A single talent represented roughly 20 years of a laborer's wages. Even the least-endowed servant received an immense, unearned gift — which makes the wicked servant's inaction all the more indefensible. The wicked servant's problem is theological, not financial. He doesn't bury the talent out of ignorance or fear alone — he actively mischaracterizes the master as exploitative and unjust. His failure is a failure of theology: he does not know who his master is. The commendation "Well done, good and faithful servant" is the basic reward of every believer, not a tiered prize for the most productive. The five-talent and two-talent servants receive identical commendations, suggesting the measure is proportional faithfulness, not absolute output. Faithful stewardship is active, not passive. Both faithful servants are marked by immediacy and energetic engagement. The parable does not explain how they doubled their talents because the mechanics are not the point — their disposition of active, risk-taking faithfulness is. The parable resists works-righteousness readings. Whether one is Augustine or an anonymous deathbed convert, every justified believer enters into the same joy of the master. The parable is not a theology of graduated heavenly rewards but a distinction between those who understand their master and those who do not. The talents represent the stewardship of the Gospel and the Kingdom itself. The master entrusting his servants with his property is a picture of Christ entrusting the church with the message of salvation — ownership remains with the master, the servants are stewards, not proprietors. Key Concepts The Wicked Servant's Problem Is Who He Thinks the Master Is The most common misreading of this parable locates the wicked servant's failure in laziness or timidity — he was simply too afraid to act. But Tony Arsenal argues compellingly that the servant's own words expose something far more serious. He says, "I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow." This is not a confession of fear; it is an accusation. The servant has constructed a theology of his master as an exploitative, unjust overseer who doesn't deserve a return. What he catastrophically misses is that the very possession of 20 years' worth of wages — an unearned, unimaginable gift — is the master sowing into him. His refusal to act is, at its root, a refusal to acknowledge the master's generosity and authority. This is the parable's most penetrating theological edge. "Well Done" Is for Every Believer, Not Just the Most Productive One of the episode's most pastorally significant observations is Tony's argument that the commendation "Well done, good and faithful servant — enter into the joy of your master" is not reserved for spiritual high-achievers. Because the five-talent and two-talent servants receive word-for-word identical commendations despite wildly different absolute returns, the logical entailment is that the one-talent servant, had he been faithful, would have received the same words. This means the commendation is not calibrated to productivity — it is the basic inheritance of every believer who enters glory. The soul-winner and the deathbed convert, Augustine and the unknown faithful, all hear the same welcome. The parable is therefore not teaching a graduated hierarchy of heavenly reward, but a binary distinction: those who know their master and act accordingly, and those who do not. The Parable Cannot Be Detached from Its Eschatological Context Jesse Schwamb is careful to anchor the parable in its literary and theological context: this is the second of three eschatological parables in Matthew 25, all part of the Olivet Discourse, all delivered in direct response to the disciples' question about the sign of Christ's return and the end of the age. Detaching the Parable of the Talents from that frame — and reading it instead as a general productivity principle or a theology of spiritual gifts — drains it of what Jesse calls its "gravity." The master going away and returning after a long time is a direct image of the ascended Christ and his parousia. The servants' task during the interval is not self-improvement or career stewardship — it is watchful, active discipleship in the time between the first and second comings. Everything in the parable, including the staggering sums of money, is calibrated to that eschatological frame. Memorable Quotes The real difference is that the former servants understood that their master had trusted them with a task and expected something of them, and the unfaithful, wicked, lazy servant had a total misunderstanding of who the master was — and therefore what his role as the master's servant was. That's the point of this parable. — Tony Arsenal Well done, good and faithful servant — that's not a special commendation that only the most amazing Christian servants get. That's the basic commendation that every Christian who enters into glory will receive. Whether you have been the most productive soul-winner in the world... you're going to receive the same commendation as the person who dies, and on their deathbed the last thing that they think is, 'I trust Jesus.' — Tony Arsenal God's measure of faithfulness is proportional, not absolute. The two-talent servant is not judged by the five-talent standard. He is judged by what he received. — Jesse Schwamb Full Transcript [00:00:08] Tony Arsenal: that's not a special commendation that only the most amazing Christian servants get, right? That's the basic commendation that every Christian who enters into glory will receive. Whether you have been the most productive soul-winner in the world, whether you are the most, you know, the most sanctified Christian who's ever lived, whether you are, the most amazing person and millions of people have come to faith because of your ministry, you're going to receive the same commendation as the person who dies, and on their deathbed the last thing that they think is, I trust Jesus." Right. And they've produced no converts, no ministry, and maybe no one even knows that they were justified, because in their final moments before the lights went out, they trusted in Jesus, right? They hear the same well done, good and faithful servant when they enter into glory. Welcome to episode 496 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  And I'm Tony, and this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey, brother.  [00:01:19] Jesse Schwamb: Hey, brother.  [00:01:21] Parable Teaser [00:01:21] Jesse Schwamb: You know, the parables just keep coming for us, like we've said. And on this episode, to, just to tee it up, to whet everybody's appetites, we've got three servants, one absent master, an uncomfortable amount of money. What could go wrong? Yeah. As it turns out, quite a bit, especially if you're the kind of person who responds to divine generosity by finding the nearest shovel. So we're gonna get to all of that in this, what I call, this now sandwich of eschatological parables or teachings of Jesus in Matthew 25. So hopefully you're curious, hopefully you're stoked. But you can go put your thumb right in the scriptures there, because you're gonna meet us there very, very, very, very shortly. But first we got business. It's always the business we must do, the part of the podcast where we affirm with something or deny against something. And as always, I'm really curious what you have, and now I understand you have a list, or you're keeping a list. So- I do ... never again will there be something like that falls to the cutting room floor, brothers and sisters. Tony is always gonna have for us whatever was- ... what came to his brilliant mind as an affirmation or denial at any point, day or night.  [00:02:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. Do you, Jesse, do you ever have... I know the answer to this question is going to be yes- Yeah. That's good ... but I'm gonna ask it- All right ... mostly for rhetorical effect here. This is good podcasting.  [00:02:38] Psalm 67B Praise [00:02:38] Tony Arsenal: Do you have, do you have those situations where, like, the, the so- a song hits you, and it's just, like, the right combination of words, but also the right combination of, like, musicality?  [00:02:49] Jesse Schwamb: For sure.  [00:02:50] Tony Arsenal: Where it just, like, it just, it just feels- For sure like, right and good in every part of your being. So- All the time, yep ... I, I'm affirming, um, th- this is like the most Presbyterian thing ever. I'm affirming the, the arrangement in the Trinity, uh, psalter hymnal for Psalm 67B. Now, I'm not gonna try to sing it for you, but I wanna read the words, because obviously it's, it's a paraphrase of a psalm. So, like, that's the first thing. Like, people, like, calm down. Like, it's okay to sing paraphrases. It's okay to sing. No one is actually singing the Hebrew psalms. Right. Amen. So, like, just calm down a little bit. Amen. Uh, there is a place for us to dedicate specific focus to psalms and songs that are from the psalms, but that can be something like Better Is One Day. Like, that's a song from a psalm. Anyway, that's a whole different, that's a whole different thing. Yes, I'm affirming psalm singing. Uh, yes, I'm denying overly rigid understandings of what that is. But here's the words for Psalm 67, Setting B. That's important It's, "O God, show mercy to us and bless us with your grace and cause to shine upon us the brightness of your face, so that the whole world over may truly know your way and so that your salvation all nations see displayed. O God, let peoples praise you. Let all the peoples praise. Let nations come rejoicing and songs of gladness rise, raise." Then, um, stanza two, "For you will judge the peoples with perfect equity. To nations of the whole Earth a governor you'll be. O God, let the peoples praise you. Let all the peoples praise. The Earth has brought its bounty throughout its harvest days.  [00:04:24] Why Sing Psalms [00:04:24] Tony Arsenal: Since God our God will bless us, yes, God will blessing send, that all the Earth may fear Him to its remotest end." Now, there are lots of really great, uh, theologically sound, edifying hymns and worship choruses, but there's just something about the Psalms, right? It's inspired- Um- ... it's perfect. Again, like I said, nobody is singing the actual Hebrew Psalms, or even, I shouldn't say nobody, most people are not singing, like, the Psalms from the ESV, right? These are almost all paraphrases. They're, they're translations. But there's just something about the Psalms that I have grown so much to appreciate since joining a Presbyterian church. That's not to say other traditions don't sing Psalms in their own right, and again, like, we would sing Better Is One Day and other songs that were based on Psalms. Um, even, like, real direct translations or real direct versions of Psalms, like Better Is One Day or Create In Me A Clean Heart, there's all sorts of them. But there's just something about singing the Psalms, and this particular musical setting, it's triumphant, but not in the, like, fanfare kind of triumphant. Do you know what I mean, Jesse? Like- Mm-hmm ... it's, it's a triumphant melody, and it has, like, really interesting rises and falls and... So I, I'm gonna probably try to put this at the end of the episode. So listen. Hopefully I'll get the whole thing. Let me just, let me just do this. Hold on a second. It's just gorgeous. It's just beautiful. So I, I, I don't know what it was this morning. Uh, it's, I wasn't, like, promo- particularly emotional. It didn't, like, make me cry. Yeah. But all of that's fine. Like, I've been brought to tears in worship before, and that's, that's all good and well. There was just something about it that resonated, and I was like, "This is just good." Like, this is just good music. It's good singing. Something about hearing, uh, the whole congregation singing together. Like, it was just beautiful. It was just a beautiful moment. So if you are not in a psalm-singing church, first of all, why aren't you in a psalm-singing church? Uh, no worship leader on Earth, no, no person who is worth... Uh, when I say worship leader, I mean the person who's responsible for leading musical worship. No one who's leading worshipful music, worshipful? Worship music, if you approach them and say, "I would like to sing more songs that are based on the Psalms," if they say, "We don't wanna sing Psalms here," then you just go somewhere else. Like, someone who tells you, like, "We don't wanna s- we don't wanna sing God's Word," that doesn't make any sense to me.  [00:06:56] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:06:56] Tony Arsenal: Um, now again, like, there's a way to do it. Sometimes musically they're challenging, especially if you're singing out of something like the hymnal. But again, there are plenty of really good modern style songs and hymn style songs that are either based on the Psalms or are paraphrases, very similar to what you get in the, in the Trinity Psalter Hymnal. Or most, most people who are leading in musical worship are competent enough to just sort of take the sheet music and figure out how to do it on guitar or figure out how to play it on piano. Um, they're not that difficult. So you will be edified if you do this. Your church will be edified. There's probably a lot of people out there responsible for musical worship that actually would really like to do this, and they're kind of probably, like, just waiting for that nudge, so you may even be benefiting them. But yeah, this, this psalm is beautiful. It's just a gorgeous arrangement, and it's, it's perfect, inspired words. Really was a, just a, a balm to my soul this morning.  [00:07:51] Jesse Schwamb: I love it. And o- of course, a lot of that is still happening, which is such a glorious gift to the church. The couple of times that I've had the privilege of writing music for my own church has been right from the scriptures, and for me recently that was, like, Ephesians 1 and Psalm 16. And that's mainly because, like, as a lyricist, I'm not that creative, and I'd rather go direct to the source. And all those end up being a paraphrase, like you said, anyway. Es- especially if you wanna get turn of phrase or if you wanna have a little bit of rhyming, which is always a beautiful thing. I love the Psalter, and my, my hot take on that is I sometimes find that I like, I don't wanna call them, like, the alternate, but, like, the other secondary arrangements-  Yeah and  lyrics better. I don't know why. I don't think that's purposeful, of course. It's probably just my taste. But I always find them to be, like, super fire. I, I don't know why. The, the B and C versions always kinda grab me, especially if... And here's another thing that I appreciate about the Psalter, as you know, is sometimes those B or C versions will be written in an alternate key or a minor key. Yeah. And that's even more awesome, because there's not a lot of, let's say, like, cla- I don't wanna say classic. Classic slash contemporary, uh, Christian music or wors- quote-unquote worship music that's written in minor keys. But it's good to lament, as we've talked about before. So- Yeah ... you're gonna get that full breath and scope in the Psalter there. [00:09:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:09:07] Beyond Music Styles [00:09:07] Tony Arsenal: A- and, you know, maybe let me put in one more little plug here. Um- I am not one of those people that is gonna say that there's like a particular style of music that's more godly than another. I've heard people try to make arguments that there's like certain kinds of rhythms or certain kinds of like beats that are- Right either, either more godly or somehow demonic or less godly. Um, I think there might be an argument to be made that some styles of worship are not suited well for congregational singing, so they may not be appropriate for like a, a congregational worship service. Like, you're probably not gonna go in and do a lot of hip hop and have the congregation be able to like stick with you. Right. That doesn't mean that you can't worship God through that or that it somehow is less like intrinsically beautiful. But, um, there are a lot of Let me just put it this way. In modern contemporary Western Christianity, uh, there's a lot of songs that are basically just the same thing musically. You know, you'll find, um, if you go to, like, YouTube, and, and maybe, like, be careful, 'cause sometimes some of these are, they're funny but they're a little bit crass. But if you look up, like, a video about how, like, every song is Pachel Bell's Canon. Right. Right? Every song follows the same basic arrangement of chords, and this gets even more pronounced when you're talking about modern worship music or contemporary mu- worship music, because it's designed to be able to be very simple and very easily played. Um, a lot of times worship directors are not super classically trained. Um, you think of, like, the youth pastor with the guitar around the campfire. Like, those kinds of songs have to be easy, 'cause they're not, like, classically trained guitar players. They probably picked up a chord book and figured out how to play a couple easy songs like Jesus, Lover of My Soul and things like that. That's how I learned how to play guitar. That's the extent of my skills, so I'm not, I'm not banging on that person. Um, but there are a lot, there's a lot more to music. Um, there's a lot more to singing, and there's a lot more to choral music than, you know, GCDC kind of like worship courses. Uh, and singing something like the Psalter, or even just singing out of a good hymnal- Right will actually expand your musical horizons. And there's something to be said about the creativity of our God being reflected in the creativity of His people that I do think we miss out on when we are locked into really simplistic worship styles. Um, again, like, I interpret Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs to mean, like, sing in the vernacular of the people. Um, and I, you know, that's a different episode. We can talk about that sometime. But th- that, that requires the songs to be singable, and I think sometimes, uh, sometimes some of the song- some of the Psalters, some of the songs in the Psalter hymnals, and sometimes hymnals in general, are very difficult to sing. And so I think a congregation, the people leading in music need to be thoughtful of that. But I think you would do well to, like, open your horizons a little bit to something a little bit more challenging and a little bit off the beaten path. Like, this melody, I don't know the chords behind it. It may not be anything crazy, but that, like, musicality and that, that sort of, like, melody is not a typical... And this might be why it resonated with me. It's not a typical kind of melody you're gonna find in contemporary music. Um, it's, it's very different. It's older. It's more classically styled. The, it's, it's meant to sort of bring you up to these crescendos in ways that modern music is not necessarily. So enough about that. I don't know a lot about music theory, so I might be totally wrong and, and- ... people might be rolling their eyes. But I, I do think that there's something to it. Like, a lot of the older hymns- utilize chord progressions and melodies and harmonies and things like that that we're just not used to. You're not gonna get that listening to, you know, even something like, like the more musical kind, uh, more technically proficient music like something like Bethel or Hillsong, which is at times musically very good. Uh, I don't know that I would recommend listening to it, but the music is actually, like, technically very good in some instances. Uh, even there you're not gonna find a lot of this stuff. So instead of going there for, like, really nice sounding musical worship, just go to something like the Trinity Psalter app. You know, for $10 on a- on your iPhone you can sing with it. Um, yeah, enough about that. I, I, I could talk about how great the Psalms are and how great psalm singing is for an entire episode. We should do that episode- We should ... when we're done with the parables, 'cause I know we've done a lot of episodes on, like, uh, on, on, like, the regulative principle and- Right I, I think we're still both in the same spot that, like- Right ... exclusive psalmody is probably not where we would land. Right. But I think I'm coming to the conviction that the psalms should have a much greater portion of our worship diet, uh- Hmm ... than they do in most churches. Um, and I really only came to that conviction when I was in a church where psalm singing was the norm. Uh, I know that we try to have at least one s- one canonical psalm for every single worship service. Usually there's multiple, but, um, even in a, a, a setting where we normally wouldn't be so focused on that, we still try to have at least one, and it's been a, a really huge edifying thing to my soul.  [00:14:06] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. I absolutely love that. You'll find no complaint from me on that. I think that that's a good reminder for all of us.  [00:14:13] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:14:14] Book Sing Recommendation [00:14:14] Tony Arsenal: Jesse, what do you have?  [00:14:15] Jesse Schwamb: Well, it's, we're not gonna stop this conversation, just so you know. Because we don't sync up on these things ever, but it just so happens that I'm affirming with a book that it's a really simple primer on congregational singing-  There you go that has  long been on my list and overdue to read, and I am coming in hot with a recommendation for this, and that is the book entitled Sing! How Worship Transforms Your Life, Family, and Church by Keith and Kristyn Getty. And really, it covers so many of the things that you already talked about. I, I think at the foremost, it's a reminder that God cares whether in what we sing, but he does not mind how well we sing. Yes. But it is, like, the, this... What's true is that our voices might not be of a professional standard, but they are of a confessional standard. Yeah. And so it is incumbent upon every Christian to sing. And if you need just, like, a little bit of inspiration, so to speak, or a reminder of why that's important, I highly commend this book to you. In fact, in the back they have what's called, like, these bonus tracks. It's like four or five separate chapters that they've written just to particular people in the church, pastors, laypeople, musicians, even the people that help produce the sound. I found that bit to be so lovely and pastoral. It, it's gentle, the tone is encouraging, but it is also strong, and I appreciate that. So a lot of it is some of the themes that we've just talked about, but my conviction grows all the time of just how important congregational singing is, and how everything you just said, the music, the liturgy that we bring forward- has to be of a deliberate kind to strengthen that exercise, to make it easy, so to speak. And that does come into practical things like if you look at the psalter, and I, I don't... I have it on my phone, but I don't know where my phone is, so I was gonna look at the one you were referencing. My guess is it's, it's in probably a key with a couple of sharps in it, because those are the ones that are easiest to sing. So even little things like that matter. What you hear on the radio often is, or radio? People still listen to the radio? What you hear, like, in, like, contemporary music, like, often is not necessarily for congregational singing just in its key, and, and that's okay. And so even in my own church, we transpose things to make it reasonable and approachable. But what I think was, like, the critical question put forward in this book that I absolutely loved as a great reminder was: how did the congregation sing? It's very interesting that they kind of bring forward this thesis that that's how you should be judging your music. How did the congregation sing? And I think if we started asking that, it might slightly tweak or maybe change altogether, to your point, the methods and the practices that we use when we undergo worship by way or through music. So this is really great. It's easily readable, and it's for everybody, and it, there's a chapter on family worship as well, how to bring singing into your home and music into your home all the time as an act of worship so that when you get to the Lord's Day, your kids are like, "Yeah, this is our jam." Uh, especially maybe even recognizing some of the pieces of music and be excited about that. So there was a lot that made me think about here. It's fantastic. And to your point, Tony, I would say the Gettys, especially in, like, "Christ Alone," some of the other things, this is probably the closest to what you're talking about, where they've taken and imported kind of the classical hymn structures-  [00:17:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah [00:17:27] Jesse Schwamb: but modernized a little bit just the language while without sacrificing any of the theological richness or the musicality that draws your ear to those beautiful rising and falling melodies, the swelling of the vocal there, without, like, distracting from anything that's going on there. It's not emotionalism- Yeah but it certainly is filled with the emotion of what it means to be a Christian and to sing in response as an act of praise to God.  [00:17:50] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:17:52] Family Worship Singing [00:17:52] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, I can't underscore enough the importance of congregational singing. We, we've, we've actually talked about, about it in context of, like, how important it is for the men of the congregation to sing, which is something I, I really appreciate about my congregation, is, is the m- the men just go all out. Like, people are, like- Love it ... nobody is, nobody is ashamed of the fact that they squawk on a note that they're not used to or anything like that. And where this really pays out, um, at least in our congregation, but I'd, I'd be willing to bet if you go to any congregation where the, where the men particularly are passionate and active in musical worship, right? Um, I think where this plays out is you see the children very quickly picking up those songs and learning them and singing them. And the, the favorite part of my day, this is gon- any parent of toddlers is gonna be like, "What are you talking about?" Bedtime is one of my favorite times of day, not just because it means that, like, in a little while I'm gonna get a little peace and quiet. Like, that's part of it, too, but there are two songs that we sing almost every single night, and Augie leads them, which is really great. He always wants to start, and he always wants to sing, and it's the Doxology and the Gloria Patri. And these are songs that he has just picked up from being in the congregation, and, you know, I, I don't remember consciously teaching him any of these songs. And now, now Adeline, who is, uh, my two-year-old daughter, almost two, she's starting to pick those songs up, and she's starting to sing them, and she recognizes them, and she responds very differently to those songs than she does to other songs. Um, it's funny because I don't, I don't know where she got this. Neither my wife nor I are particularly, uh, charismatic, emotive people. Like, we don't raise our hands when we're singing, but she, she does. She, she, when we start singing- My girl ... the Gloria Patri or the Doxology, her hand is in the air, and she's looking at the sky, and she's waving her hands around. Yeah. And, um, she recognizes that those songs have a different place than a Miss Rachel song. She doesn't put her hands in the air and wave and look up at the ceiling when Miss Rachel comes on or when Baby Shark comes on. She knows those songs. She can sing those songs. Um, but she doesn't- Respond to those in the same way. And that is a direct result of the fact that congregational singing is an important thing in the life of our church and in the life of our family. And I think a book like Sing, I haven't read it, but I've heard very good things about it, and the, the Gettys are rock solid, like- Right ... theologically. Yes. Musically. They're, they're well within our Reformed tradition, at least broadly speaking. Um, and, and they have a, they have one of the strongest sort of theologies of praise music that you're gonna find. Mm-hmm. It's not quite like a liturgiology or something like that, but it's, it's, it's a theology of praise worship, praise and worship music. Right. Um, and that's not something that's super common, right? There's a lot of theology of liturgy. There's a lot of practical theology on liturgy. Um, the Gettys have developed a really unique kind of place in things in that they've really developed this idea that congregational singing has a specific theological import, and they've developed it in a way that's approachable. So yeah, I haven't read it and I sh- I probably should, but it, it sounds like a really great book. And, um, I c- just can't underscore it enough. And- Maybe this is my little plug. Like, uh, family worship is really tough, and it's not something I've mastered. Like, we don't, we, we don't have a regular rhythm. But what we do have is we have a consistent, uh, we consistently pray at night before bed, and we consistently sing one or both of those songs. And that by itself, like, the kids are learning and they are, they're absorbing that by osmosis. Um, they're picking up the phrasing, right? Augie can tell you who the three persons of the Trinity are, and that's partially 'cause we do catechism questions, but it's also partially, and I would actually argue probably more, because of the Trinitarian structure of those two songs. Right. He's picked up the language of the Father, the Spirit, and the Son from the Gloria Patri and from the doxology in ways that probably I wouldn't have been able to teach him otherwise. So yeah. Anyway, I, I just co-opted your affirmation. But, um, but yeah. I'm here for it. Congregational worship, family worship, singing, uh, to our Lord is commanded, and it's commanded for our good- Right and for his, his benefit and his blessing. Um, and so any book that is, is solid and will help you do that, I, I'm wholeheartedly behind.  [00:22:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. This is... All that is fire. This is fire.  [00:22:19] Reclaim Congregational Song [00:22:19] Jesse Schwamb: God designed our psyche for singing, and we're probably, uh, I would say contractually obligated since Reformed is in the name of the title of the podcast- to remind ourselves and everybody else that one of the things the Reformation did was reclaim the singing of God's word by his own people. Yes. Taking it out of that performatory space back into literally the voice boxes of the people who are sitting in worship together. So sometimes we might have to do that again. You know, there is a little bit, I think, of... There, there is in some places, not everywhere, this kind of tilting of that time of worship through music to be vouchsafed or relegated to those who are, uh, let's say, like, the most, like, talented in doing that, and somehow we participate merely by observing or by- Yeah just, uh, you know, being an audience spectator of that, and that's totally backwards. So I get it. The thing is- We're all singers. We may not all be very good singers, but we're all created to be singers nonetheless. This is what the Bible tells us. So we need to lean into that. We need to invest in that. Yeah. And so I, I like, of course, what you're doing with, uh, your kids because you're not only teaching them to sing, and this makes me so happy, but you're teaching them to love singing to the Lord. Yeah. And so that is, I think, what a lot of our congregations miss, is sometimes we do it, and I'm among them often, but grudgingly. And so to get to a place where we come excited that our reasonable response, our reasonable preparation on the Lord's day is to sing together, to hear that gospel message in melody in the ear of our... You know, the voice of our neighbor in our own ear is a wild thing. It's just, like, un- unheard of. And it's like, uh, we gotta stop, right? It's one of those things also that, like- ... we've, we've talked about how it's just kind of otherworldly. Not, not only in the sense that it gives us this really kind of foundational sense of God's, you know, kind of transcendence, of what it means to participate in the worship of someone who is transcendent because it is all these voices together, but also this is something that rarely happens in any other way, especially in the Western culture anymore. This coming together to express and to participate in something where we're all reading literally from the same sheet music is just an entirely different experience, increasingly relegated to this kind of experience. So we, we must protect it, not only because God says that we ought to, but also because, again, it is, it is our reasonable response. Yeah. And it is something, like you've just said, that brings Him glory and is certainly for our good. So, uh, this is the Singcast, so everybody- ... everybody get to it. You can make your own music. God has commanded us to sing. So the sooner we just understand, like, hey, it's, it's... You know. Uh, but... And the last thing I'll say is this is one of those things that's, like, practice too. A- and I get it. Like, you may say, like, "Listen, I can only hit two notes, and that's all I'm gonna hit no matter what the music is." Well, then belt the two notes, and also know that, like, the more you practice that kind of thing, honestly, the better that you'll get and the more comfortable that you'll become. The voice is an instrument like any other instrument that takes, like, a little bit of practice and a little bit of work. But even that can cause, I think, great benefits and build a little bit of confidence. But just the example of singing and doing it from a heart that is keen to worship God and that is filled with passion to respond to Him with gratitude and, you know, adoration is really the key thing. And so I, I'd rather have a entire group full of worshipers that are singing off-key but, like, with just resounding passion than to have this performance of just a handful of voices because they feel like they're the most capable to do it. Yeah. I think we'd, we'd rather have everybody else, and to hear the congregation mixed as one of those instruments. So sing. Yeah.  [00:26:05] Everyone Can Sing [00:26:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and y- you and I have made the point in the past, too, like- I, I don't think, uh, maybe I'm wrong. Uh, we are a top 50 healthcare podcast, so maybe some doctor- I'm sure you're correct ... is gonna... Right. Like, I don't think being tone deaf is actually a physical condition. Like- Mm. I, I mean, I, I mean, obviously, like, some people have hearing problems, and that means they have trouble singing. I hear what you're saying. But, like, the people who are like, "Well, I j- I just can't sing. I'm just not capable of that," uh, like, I think the, the physical conditions that would make you incapable of singing are not usually what people are talking about. Like- Right. Yeah ... you know, some people have, like, vocal fold disorders or they have hearing problems, and I guess maybe, like, if perfect pitch is a thing, which it, it is. Like, perfect pitch is a... I don't know what causes it, but some people are born with perfect pitch. I suppose in theory that means some people must be born with, like, the opposite of perfect pitch. But I think most people who say, like, "Well, I just, I'm just tone deaf. I can't carry a tone," that, that's probably not true. Like, it just means you need practice. Um, and some people's voices, like physically, their bodies are more, more designed by God to produce a pleasant sound than other people. But I, I think actually just about anybody with a little bit of practice, and mostly I think this is probably just the confidence to actually sing and a little bit of practice to learn how your body works, like how your voice works, um, could probably get to a point where singing is not only very relatively comfortable and easy, but it's something that is pleasant and is not overly challenging. This is actually something that I think we've lost in the church. We should... This, I mean, this is about to come the episode, but, um- ... something we've lost in the church when we have sort of changed from a true genuine congregational singing model, which was the norm- And I've heard people make arguments about the importance of hymnals, and I, I agree with those arguments, although I know some people have moved them into almost like a realm of, like, divine mandate- Right that you have to use hymnals because it trains people to teach. But we have lost something with both the sort of commercialization of worship music and the pro- like making it a professional thing, and we've lost congregational singing. The, the people in the church throughout history have learned to sing. Many of them have learned to read, learned the scriptures, learned theology, not in the seminary and not in the monastery, but in the pew as they sing God's word and as they sing- Right ... the great theological hymns of, of the church. There's so much you can learn through that process that I just think we've lost. And I think going back to something like a hymnal or the Trinity Psalter Hymnal or whatever, whatever standard music your church is gonna use, and I mean standard music. Like, whether this is a collection of worship choruses that has been curated for the church or it's a published hymnal or something like that, going back to something like that teaches the church how to sing. And I don't remember who wrote it, but the trellis and the vine, like the worship that we sing, I know Mike Horton makes this point. The worship that we sing is the tre- is the trellis that the vine of our wor- of our- Yes ... faith grows on, right? That's true. Like, what the, what the church lex credendi, lex orandi. Like, the church, what the church prays, the church believes. What the church sings, the church believes. So all of that to say, like, the, the importance of congregational singing can't be under-emphasized, and it's... I, I mean, I don't know that I would I don't know that most theologists say technically s- like, congregational singing is an element of worship, but praising the Lord through song certainly is. Yes. It's, it's evidence. Um, and, and so I think that's definitely something that the church has lost in general. Um, and I know there are churches... I- it's funny, when Ashley and I were between churches, uh, very briefly after, um, our previous church closed down, um, we went to a local sort of, like, high, high, uh, production, seeker-sensitive church, very Steven Furtick-esque, and we only lasted, like, 10 minutes in this, in this service. We went in and the production value was great, and the music sounded great, but we couldn't hear ourselves, we couldn't sing- Right ... and it was very performative, and we just left. We were only there for a few minutes, and we left. And I think that's something we've lost as we've sort of migrated worship to almost, like, a professional class. So yeah, bring it back to the pews. Bring it back to your- Bring it back ... bring it back to your house, bring it back to your kid's bedroom when you're tucking them in. Everywhere. Bring it back to the car on the way to work, in the bus. Right. Like, just let's everywhere we go, let's sing and worship the Lord. [00:30:30] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that's right.  [00:30:31] Train Your Voice [00:30:31] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, so as a final thing, let me compound your hot take and say that I agree with you, that I... And I think professionals would as well, and I'm gonna stand on a resource that I'm gonna recommend to everybody here in a second, that in fact the Getty say, "If you can speak, you can sing." And there are a f- a few conditions that would prevent you from doing that, of course. And even there, they wanna explore opportunities for you, for instance, signing, for instance, to ensure that you can participate in worship. Uh, the hot take is I do think that because the instrument that God has given us in the vocal cords is exactly that, that it can be trained, and that actually most people can sing. And if you're serious about that, if you think, "You know what? I'd like to be able to do that. How can I explore that?" Here's a book for you. It's called Set Your Voice Free by Roger Love. The full title is How to Get the Singing or Speaking Voice You Want. Roger Love is, like, this amazing behind-the-scenes vocal coach. He has coached, like, a ton of really talented recording artists, and this is his very contention in the book, is that everybody can sing. It's really about how much or little work you wanna put into it. And in fact, this book comes with, like, these exercises that you can listen to and then record yourself. And then he, from a distance basically, can give you some pointers based on allowing you to kinda evaluate what you hear in your own recording back. So if you really are the kind of person that's like, "Listen, I, I dare you. I cannot sing," I would challenge you, I would double dog dare you to get this book, Set Your Voice Free, and if you're really serious about wanting to try and see if it can make a difference, I, I think it can. And I've, I myself have enjoyed this book, gone back to it many times, use it in my own work and practice because I found it to be helpful. So there you go. Sing, sing, and sing again.  [00:32:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:32:07] Singing Apps and Practice [00:32:07] Tony Arsenal: And if you're not a reader, first of all, why are you listening to the podcast? But second of all, if for some reason you're not a reader I'm, I'm joking. I'm sure there are people that are listening to the podcast who are not readers. That was, like, a super smug thing to say. How dare you. I'm sorry about that. How dare you. Um, if for some reason you don't wanna read that book or you're not a reader, um, y- you can do something as simple as looking up Yousician on your Yousician, Y-O-U- Yeah ... S-I, like the word musician, but U instead of, like, Y-O-U instead of, uh, musician. Um, there are plenty of apps out there. I just, I mention Yousician just because I've used that on, like, a free trial basis with some guitar teaching, and it's a reputable source. They also have a vocal module. So, like, if you wanna learn to sing, there are plenty of resources out there who can help you train your voice. A- and it- Again, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a vocal coach, I'm not a professional singer. I'm not even that great of a singer, and I, I probably could be a better singer if I wanted to devote the time to it. Um, it doesn't take much to, to be able- Right ... to become a competent singer. Um, I think most of us, you pick up one s- just like I learned guitar, you pick one or two songs that you really like and you wanna learn, and you learn to sing those songs, and then those skills will develop over time. So enough about that, Jesse. We've got, speaking of talents- ... we've got some talents to talk about. There it is. Boom, bazinga. Baza-bazom. I'm  [00:33:27] Jesse Schwamb: back. There it is. Yeah, so- I was excited  [00:33:31] Tony Arsenal: about that one ...  [00:33:32] Jesse Schwamb: that, that was really good. And, and we should just h- honor everyone. That's it.  [00:33:37] Tony Arsenal: That's it. Tip your waiters and waitresses, folks. It  [00:33:39] Jesse Schwamb: was so good. We're here all week.  [00:33:41] Parable Context Setup [00:33:41] Jesse Schwamb: So we're in Matthew 25, uh, verses 14 through 28, and this is at least gonna be a two-parter for us. This goes by the name you might be familiar of, which is The Parable of the Talents. But before we get to it, just a quick reminder that we've been speaking about this parable, not like in a special way, but hopefully in the more contextual sense. So this is the second of three eschatological parables in Matthew 25. So the first was The 10 Virgins, which we went through. We're in The Talents, and then we're coming up to everybody's favorite, The Sheep and the Goats. All three are part of this Olivet Discourse, which is, of course, Jesus' final teaching block before his Passion. And I think it h- behooves us so that we do not get distracted from, like, the center of gravity of this thing, that this is delivered in response to the disciples' question about the sign of his coming and the age to come. Because I've heard so many, like, little talks, maybe homilies is more the right word, on this particular parable that lack gravity. So little gravity that basically NASA could train their astronauts in it. So we wanna stay away from that and I think get into, like, the, the proper context. So Tony, do you have it in front of you by any chance? And would  [00:34:50] Tony Arsenal: you- I do. I do, yeah. Yeah. Read it for us? I'll read it here.  [00:34:52] Reading the Parable [00:34:52] Tony Arsenal: So this is, uh, starting in, uh, Matthew 25 verse 14, and I'm gonna read down through, uh, the end of verse 30 here. So it, it reads here, "For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted them, entrusted to them his property. To one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. Now after a long time, the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. And he who had received the five talents came forward bringing five talents more, saying, 'Master, you delivered to me five talents. Here I have made five talents more.' His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little. I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.' And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, "Master, you delivered to me two talents. Here I have made two talents more." His master said to him, "Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little. I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master." He also who had received one talent came forward, saying, "Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed. So I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours." But his master answered him, "You wicked and slothful servant. You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming, I should have received what was my own with interest. So take the talent from him who gave it, who give it to him who has 10 talents. For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. For, uh, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness in that place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."  [00:36:56] Watchfulness and Stewardship [00:36:56] Jesse Schwamb: So it starts with that amazing connective, which we really spoke about in the last episode, in verse four- 14, starting with four. So it's tying, like we said, this parable directly to verse 13, which we know is in the, the parable of the ten virgins. But it's this idea of watchfulness. "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour." So th- I think this is the point we really drove last time, that we really felt highly convicted about, that this parable is not like a detached economic lesson, but it's really like an expedition, exposition, not expedition- ... of what watchful discipleship actually looks like during the interval of the master's absence. Like, that's the whole setup here. So it's starting with this idea of like the master goes away, but here we have these slaves or these servants who are entrusted. And to me, again, that's like such a linchpin in this whole thing, 'cause it's, it's carrying the sense that of course, like, he's handing over stewardship. It's a deposit held on another's behal- I love this parable because it has some banking language in it. It's, it's a deposit held on another's behalf, and that's like the key covenant concept of the entire thing. Ownership remains with the master. The servants are stewards. They're not proprietors. And that language, I think, really anticipates, like, the entire New Testament theology of stewardship, which is developed by Paul. So like when Paul writes in 1 Corinthians, "This is how one should regard us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. Moreover, it is required of stewards that they be found faithful." So like all of that, that's like just one verse for me. Like, that's an incredible setup.  [00:38:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:38:28] Common Misreadings [00:38:28] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and you know, I think it bears saying, too, um, I wanna be careful how I say this because I don't wanna impugn, uh, poor motives or anything like that on, on the, the people that I'm about to speak to. And I say this a little bit tongue in cheek, but also I say this as someone who used to be deeply involved in youth ministry. There's kind of like a, a youth ministry, um- international version of the Bible, I guess, if you wanna put it that way, where, like, there are certain, certain passages and parables that s- for some reason seem really prone to misapplication- Sure in, in some context. And I would say, like, youth ministry is the one I have in mind. Like, um, one of them is, like, in Matthew 18 where it's like, "Where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them." Like, that's a, that's a statement about God's, God's presence in the judgment of the church and excommunicating an un- like, a, an unrepentant, uh, person who identifies with Christ. And, and ironically here, maybe not ironically, but, like, casting them into the outer darkness of excommunication, which is representative of casting them out into the actual inner darkness of damnation. Right. Like, th- there's a, there's a misapplication of that, that like, well, you know, like, if only a couple people came to youth group tonight, like, it's still worth meeting because where two or three are gathered, there I am in the midst of them. Um, this, this parable has a very similar kind of misapplication that is maybe a, a little bit less of a misapplication. Like, I think there is something to say in this parable about the fact that God entrusts us with abilities, talents, treasure, t- our time. Like, He's entrusted us with resources, and He does expect us to use those resources, uh, in a way that is honoring to Him and beneficial for the, for the gospel and for the kingdom. Um, that's true in a broad sense, but I don't think actually that this is what that... But, like, that's not what this passage- Mm ... is teaching. Right. I think I, I kinda joked last time, but, like, I've heard more than one sermon that draws the parallel between the word talent here and our talents in terms of, like, our spiritual gifts or our ability to play guitar or, like, to bounce a basketball and, like, thr- like, throw a free throw. Like, that's not the kinda talent we're talking about here. So I wanna, I wanna sorta, like, point that out just to sort of exclude that from the conversation. Yes, God gifts His people, and He expects His people to use those gifts for His glory and for their own benefit. Um, but that's not what this parable is talking about. This is a parable about the fact that God has entrusted the kingdom of heaven on Earth to His people.  [00:41:08] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:41:08] Tony Arsenal: And He expects His people to make use of that in a way that expands the kingdom and also in a way that does not... And this is, this is, I actually think, the main point of the parable. In a way that properly understands the nature of the king. The, the punchline or the main point of the parable here, it, just to sort of, like, I don't know, give away the ending or, like, unbury the lead, I don't know, whatever that is. The point of this parable- It's not that, like, it's a really good thing to double what God has resourced you with. The point of the parable, the reason that, just like the, um, just like it wasn't the virgins falling asleep in the last parable that was the problem because everybody fell asleep, in this instance, uh, the amount of money or the amount of return on investment that the servants produce is not the point of the parable. That's not the real difference between them. The real difference is that the former servants understood that their master had trusted them with a task and expected something of them, and the, the unfaithful, wicked, lazy servant had a total misunderstanding of who the master was- Right ... and therefore what his role as the master's servant was. That's the point of this parable, and I think, this is the last thing I'll say before I, I, I take a breath here. There's a lot of people that would look at this parable and might read some sort of works righteousness or, um, and this is more understandable and I think has a place within the Reformed tradition, although I don't necessarily hold this view. But would look at this as sort of like a theology which would, would argue that we receive some sort of enhanced rewards in heaven based on our faithfulness. There's plenty of good, faithful Reformed Bible teachers that would hold that position. I actually think whether or not that's true, this is still also not what this passage is getting at. [00:43:00] Jesse Schwamb: I, I totally agree with you there.  [00:43:02] Talents as Huge Wealth [00:43:02] Jesse Schwamb: I, I think one of the reasons that we know that is because we can look at some of these details and let the details speak to us about the magnitude in their representation, why they're given. So of course, whenever the scripture gives us detail, especially in a context like a parable, it can be helpful of cour- of course not to overanalyze them, but to respect their place in the context of the story, and that's why verse 15 I think is so important. So to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability, then he went away. Now, this, this varies slightly, but there's a lot of, I think, very common historicity here that points us to understanding, like, the talents as a unit of monetary weight, and there is some discrepancy about its exact weight. But what we can say for sure is this: that we're talking about, as I teased at the beginning, a huge sum of money. So in other words, like, this is a gift from God himself. It's a divine gift. Yeah. It's something that's not earned. It's something that's given and something that's entrusted. So in the first-century Roman world, a talent was roughly equivalent to, like, 6,000 denarii, depending on who you talk to, which would mean that a single talent represented approximately, like, 20 years on average of a laborer's wages. So the sums then here we're talking about are staggering even at the lowest one. So the five-talent servant is receiving essentially approximately equivalent of a century's wages, and the one-talent servant is receiving 20 years' worth. There's no such thing as a small gift in Christ's economy, I think is the point here, and even the least endowment is immense beyond our reckoning. Yeah. So the distribution also is deliberately unequal. It's five, one, two, and the text doesn't offer any apology for this inequality. The master distributes to each according to his ability, which as I say that, I realize that could probably be its own episode, that we could talk about what that even means. Yeah. But he is matching and entrusting to capacity, and that's not arbitrary. Of course, that's wise and personal, and even the Greek here for this idea of capacity or power suggests the master knows his servants intimately and calibrates the stewardship accordingly. But nonetheless, it proves the point you're making here, which is not just about, like, well, do you have some kind of innate ability that's above average that God has endowed you with here? That's not even what we're talking about. Again, the whole point of this is to answer the question eschatologically about what the end means and when the time is coming and what good discipleship looks like. And so in that way, we understand then these talents to be these divinely appointed and massively generous gifts of God, essentially, like you said, the stewarding of the gospel in the story of salvation itself unto his people, and then to make something of that, so to speak, by the power of the Holy Spirit that earns a return for the kingdom, that is all empowered by God, that is under the volition of the person, uh, the Christian who says, "As a disciple, it is my responsibility to steward these gifts." That is really what we're after. So we do kind of get in this place where when you take this and say, "Well, what are you doing with," let's say- your home, if you have a nice home, are you being hospitable enough? If you have, let's say, a good singing voice by talent, are you using that to make sure that you're on the, quote-unquote, "praise and worship team," is not, like, entirely wrong, but it's not right either- Yeah to use this passage- Yeah ... for that purpose. There's a bigger theme here. There is, there's a much stronger and widescale framework that God is drawing us to and examine, and it's about the stewardship of the church itself.  [00:46:30] Tony Arsenal: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.  [00:46:31] The Foolish Servant Exposed [00:46:31] Tony Arsenal: That's really key, and this is what struck me as, as you were speaking about that, is like we see in so many of the kinda like, uh, like the chump in the parable. Like, there's- Yeah ... a lot of these parables have like a chump- Right ... where like you're looking at and you're like, nothing about what you've decided to do makes any sense. We're talking about people who've been given, in the first case, 100 years worth of, worth of wages. Right. Right? Any one of these people, and again, we're talking about a timeframe where, like, you could just take that money and run and, like, nobody's gonna find you. There's no digital trail on any of this, right? If I stole, if I stole 100 years worth of labor from my manager or from my, my employer, they would find me, right? That's not the situation we're talking about. So even the chump who decided, "I'm not gonna do anything with this," he could've just take- taken off with the money and had 20 years worth of labor. Right. Just 20 years worth of wages. Right. This is a, this is a sum of money that makes all f- all three of these servants unimaginably wealthy instantly, right? The point of this is, in part, that the final servant has no idea the amazing blessing and responsibility that he's been given. And again, I come back to this. It's not because he is dumb or because he is, um, somehow less competent in a strict sense, right? It, it's so funny to me, like, we also gloss over the fact that, like, the guy who has five talents, he's got 100 years worth of money, 100 years worth of wages. Right. And he just goes and gets 100 more. Like- Right he just goes and trades and- Right ... comes up with 100 years worth of wages that he brings back. Like, that's, in itself is, like, phenomenally, amazingly outrageous. We ran into this too with the, um, the parable of the unmerciful servant, right? We've, we've got one guy who's got this unimaginable debt, like, like, thousands of years worth of, uh, worth of wages that he could never make up, and he thinks he's gonna somehow come up with it if you just give him enough time. It's kind of like the opposite here. This guy's got this unimaginable amount of instant wealth, and he just buries it in the ground. First of all, how much... We're also talking about an era where money was a physical, entirely physical.  [00:48:53] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:48:53] Tony Arsenal: There were no, there were no digital banks. Like- No zeros and ones most of our money exists as ones and zeros in a computer program right now. Right. Like, in reality, like- Right ... my money doesn't exist. We don't have, like, a physical gold standard anymore in America. Jesse could probably s- I'm probably making dumb things up right now. No, that's that's- Like, it used- Right on to be that, like, every dollar that the United States government printed had, like, a piece of gold sitting at Fort Knox- Yes ... uh, like backing it up, but we just don't have that anymore. Most of the money that exists in our system is entirely imaginary. It's an entirely, like, made-up digital currency way before, like, Bitcoin was a thing. That's not the case in this timeframe. This dude who buried 20 years worth of money in the ground, that's a significant amount of labor in and of itself- Right ... to even be able to do that. So we're not talking about, like... And I think this is the thing we miss when we, when we read the word talents, and one, when we obscure it and we, like, we misappropriate the word talent to mean, like, abilities, 'cause it, that's a convenient, like, illustration tool. We're talking about a huge sum of probably gold or silver that this dude just buries in the ground, and then, like, digs it up when the master comes back.  [00:50:01] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:50:01] Tony Arsenal: And I think, like- When we don't realize how much money this is, we miss the force of the master's like, "You stupid, dumb, wicked, slothful servant." Like, if you had even taken this money to the bank and done the least imaginable- Yes ... effort. Exactly. Like, if you had done anything at all, like how mu- how difficult, granted more difficult back in this age than it is now, but like if you had even done something as simple requiring as little labor as possible and just brought this to the bank and let them collect interest on it, we'd still be talking about a huge return. [00:50:35] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:50:36] Tony Arsenal: And he doesn't even do that, and that's, that's the point. There's the people who do, and they gloss over this. The parable totally glosses over the amazing effort and work that it must have taken to take 100 years worth of la- of wages and turn it into 200 years worth of wages. Right. Or to take 40 years worth of wages and turn it into 80 years worth of wages. That's an amazing, probably almost miraculous return on, on investment. Whatever they did is amazing, and the parable's like, "Yeah, they did that." They just took it to the traders and they brought back five more talents. Like, it's nothing. And then this idiot, and I say idiot in like the most like, like exegetically sound, idios, like, like foolish idiot person. [00:51:20] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:51:20] Tony Arsenal: This idiot just buries it in the ground and doesn't even bother to bring it to the bank where he's gonna get some return on it. This is the picture of the fool who does not make use of the means of salvation. This is the picture of the fool who refuses to receive Christ as savior, who refuses to make use of the benefit and blessing of salvation that is available to all who will trust in Christ and turn to him. This is the same picture as the idiot virgins who didn't buy enough oil and just fell asleep when they knew that the bridegroom was coming, right? Right. It's not that they fell asleep, it's that they didn't do the most obvious, simple, straightforward thing, is like your whole role, your whole purpose in this thing is to have oil. The whole reason you exist, and we didn't even get into this when we talked about that parable. The whole reason that these 10 virgins exist is to escort the bridegroom to where the bride is waiting. That's the whole purpose of the virgins. In the, the sort of Middle Eastern, early first century wedding sort of situation, the bridegroom would come, and some people say that like this is the tradition where bridesmaids come from. I don't know if that's true or not, but like the bridegroom would come and the virgins would escort him to the place where the virgin was waiting, the virgin bride was waiting to, to sort of, for him to claim his bride and take her, and then they would have the wedding feast. The, the, the bride, the foolish virgins, they didn't have the most basic thing they needed to accomplish the role they were in. This is the same person, the same foolish idiot is the one who goes, "I'm not even gonna invest this in the bank. I'm not even gonna bring it to the bank and deposit it," which is, like, the least effort possible. Right. Instead, I'm just gonna dig a hole. I'm gonna throw it in the hole, not because I'm dumb, not because I'm incapable, but because I think that the master is wicked and evil and selfish, and that he's going to try to gather some return. This is actually, and this just came to me, and maybe I'm wrong, but this is actually a picture of the person who wants to say that God doesn't deserve a return on his investment. 'Cause he's not saying, um, "I didn't know what to do." He's saying, "Actually, I did this because I know that you reap where you don't sow." Right. He's doing this to sort of stick it to the master who thinks that he deserves something that he doesn't. That's the whole point of this. This, this idiot servant doesn't even understand his role as a servant, and that's the key here  [00:53:44] Faithfulness Proportional Reward [00:53:44] Jesse Schwamb: yeah, the five-talent servant is set apart because he's marked by this immediacy. He goes at once or straight away. There's no delay, no prolonged deliberation, no waiting for perfect conditions, and as you already noted, he does trade, which is in the Greek like work, labored. It is remarkable of course because all of the... Well, the ones that provide a return, both of these two servants, they get 100% return, but of course like to get 100% is a lot more absolute return for the 100th century labor than it is- for the 20th century labor. But the verb does still nonetheless for each of them connotes this like active, energetic engagement. It's not passive holding. And so the result is five talents more, however he got them. Like you said, it's 100% return, and the parable doesn't explain how that was achieved because I think the mechanics of the investment are not the point, like you're saying. It's what matters is the disposition of active, engaged, risk-taking faithfulness. And so in verse 17, you see that the, the servant with the two talents receives the same condemnation. He's endowed with less, but he achieves the same proportional faithfulness, which is interesting, right? And so his condem- his condemnation in verse 23 is identical to the five-talent servant. It's word for word actually, I think. I was just looking at this. Yeah. And so it's a deliberate literary and theological point. God's measure of faithfulness is proportional, not absolute. I do think that's important. And the two-talent servant is not judged by the five-talent standard. He is judged by what he received. So even that disproportionate allocation still comes back in a proportional reward, and that is the way in which God measures out these particular servants, who again, we're, we're talking essentially about the man going away as Christ himself. And so this, I think demolishes like this temptation to compare somebody else or yourself to more gifted Christians as either an excuse for laziness or as grounds for pride. I, I think the critical point here as time eludes us is that faithfulness as we're seeing it start to unfold in this parable is active. It's, it's not passive And so that aligns so well with what we understand the Reformed tradition to teach, which is that God calls every believer to productive labor in their sphere of life, and faithfulness in that calling is itself worship. But again, we're not just speaking about kind of the, the lower level sense of how are you explicitly using every moment or piece of your day, but more this understanding of the Gospel message itself, which is the greatest kind of vouchsafing. There's one other thing that springs to my mind that I just find interesting here. It's not a complete parallel, but I do find it very interesting, and that is this is a problem that's very common in the world, the situation that's been set up here. The problem in finance, we call it the principal-agent problem, and this exists everywhere. It's where the principal is the one that actually is the one that owns the resources, but the agent is the one that's responsible for using them productively for the benefit- Yeah of the principal. And it's a problem because it's possible the agent has their own motives, and therefore will not comport with what is for the best interest of the principal. So if you own a share of Apple stock, that's fantastic because you're seeking to grow your investment in that. But the problem is that unless the managers of Apple also own shares of the company as well, they might be wanting to act in their own self-aggrandizement, either to just use the company's resources to create really expensive offices for themselves or to make sure they get paid well or to, I don't know, make sure they all have golden toilets in their restrooms. Whatever brings- ... them satisfaction and joy, which may not be the very thing that you want because it doesn't bring you return. It's interesting here that God could go about this in a number of different ways. He does draw us missionally into this idea of the kingdom, and again, he's coming against those who have been charged with that mission, explicitly the Pharisees, to say, "You are part of this missional kingdom which I've set into place." Now, of course, where this metaphor breaks down is God himself doesn't truly have a principal-agent problem because in his providence he's over all of those things. Nonetheless, the situation and the relationship still stands here. I'm not gonna say, as some have said, like, this is, like, a true partnership, like God needs us to do these things or he, he needs to gently woo us into somehow performing as good agents for the benefit of him as the principal. It's not like that at all. And yet still we have here an example of the relationship going wrong in the very way it still goes wrong today in other realms, which is- Yeah ... the agent is a fool, and you do not want- ... a fool as your agent if you are a principal.  [00:58:19] Works Righteousness Clarified [00:58:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and, you know, I think, um, this is what I'll, I'll say as we, we close out here, because I wanna make sure As I mentioned, I think this parable, particularly the way that it's often taught, lends itself almost to sort of like a, like a really, like, crass works righteousness, right? [00:58:36] Jesse Schwamb: Sure.  [00:58:36] Tony Arsenal: A- and maybe not in the sense of, like, salvation. Um, and again, there are plenty of, uh, Reformed, like, w- well-meaning and I think exegetically sound Reformed teachers who will argue for some sort of gradation of rewards in, in the Kingdom of Heaven. I don't fully understand that argument, and I, I don't think that I'm there, and I don't know how I would get there. Um, but I, I understand... I shouldn't say I don't understand the argument. I don't necessarily, like, embrace that argument. I don't agree with it, but I understand how people get to that from the scriptures. Right. I think this, this passage is sometimes used to justify that. Like, oh yeah, the guy who had five talents and he br- five more, like, he's, he's put over 10 talents, and the, like, the idiot fool who doesn't... Like, they take the one talent, they give it to the f- There's this, like, theology of, like If you're faithful over... And again, like, this is just the Bible. Like, he who's faithful over little is, is given much. Like, that's, that's a biblical principle. Like, if you're faithful to obey God and to be productive for the kingdom, God is gonna entrust you with more responsibility and more, more, I don't know, domain I guess is the way I would say it. Like, yes, that's a true principle. If you're effective, God is going to continue to use you in more effective ways. I, I actually don't think that's at all the point of this parable.  [00:59:59] Jesse Schwamb: Agreed.  [00:59:59] Tony Arsenal: Because what, what I know is true is the five-talent servant is given the same commendation as the two-talent servant. And so I think a logical, um, not an inference, a necessary outcome, a logical entailment is that if the one servant, uh, one-talent servant had done as the others had and returned a 100% investment- Right ... he would've also been given the same, uh, commendation.  [01:00:28] Jesse Schwamb: Absolutely. Right?  [01:00:29] Tony Arsenal: The commendation, which I, I would say, and, and we'll get into this more next week, but the commendation here, this well, "Well done, good and faithful servant," that's not a special commendation that only the most amazing Christian servants get, right? That's the basic commendation that every Christian who enters into glory will receive. Whether you have been the most productive soul-winner in the world, whether you are the most, you know, the most sanctified Christian who's ever lived, whether you are, um, well, are the, the most, absolutely the most amazing stellar person and millions of people have come to faith because of your ministry, you're going to receive the same commendation as the person who dies, and on their deathbed the last thing that they think is, "I, I trust Jesus." Right. And they've produced no converts, they've produced no ministry, and maybe no one even knows that they were justified, because in their final moments before the lights went out, they trusted in Jesus, right? They hear the same well done, good and faithful servant when they enter into glory. That, that R.C. Sproul or Billy Graham or Augustine, right? Or Martin Luther or John Calvin, we all hear the same... And maybe I'm, I'm rounding about here, like we all receive the same reward. The reward is well done, good and faithful, enter into the joy of your master. That's the point of this parable, is there are two servants who received that joy of their master. Regardless of the actual total value of their return, they were faithful. The one who does not receive the joy of his master is the wicked and slothful servant, the one who does not make any return because he does not understand his role as a servant and the master's nature as the good master who entrusts his people for a purpose. Instead he goes, "Well, this master is just trying to profit off my labor, and how dare he? How dare he do that? How dare he reap where he did not sow?" Totally missing the fact that the fact he has 20 years' worth of money to do anything with is the master sowing into him. Right. That's the whole point of this parable. So we'll come back to it again because- Like we've said, this is, this is part of a series of parables that are talking about the faithfulness of believers and how that ties into the eschatology and the nature of the church, and the nature of salvation and the eternal king- like, the everlasting kingdom. All this is wrapped into this. And actually, the punchline, and maybe punchline's not the right word. That seems flippant and feels wrong, but, like, the, the final explanation of these parables is not a parable at all. So we're gonna deviate a little bit from our parable series. We're gonna talk about a text in the coming weeks, probably not entirely next week, but we're gonna talk about the sheep and the goats, which is not a parable in the sorta, like, truest sense, but it's the way that Christ sort of puts the, the exclamation point on these parables- Mm-hmm as He explains what it actually looks like in the final judgment for the people who are faithful and for the people who are not. And that's the point of these parables, is to draw these distinctions between the faithful servants, the faithful wise virgins, and the foolish idiot virgins, and the foolish idiot servants. Notice everybody is still a servant. Whether you're a, a- Right ... an enemy of God or whether you're, you're a friend of God, you're still a servant of God. You're just a matter of whether you're a foolish servant who gains no reward because you misunderstood the master, or whether you're the wise and faithful servant who enters into the joy of the master. [01:04:01] Jesse Schwamb: That's right. So we'll come back to and begin next time with a little refresher on this one talent servant and the digging in the ground, and what's all that about, and we haven't even answered those critical questions like what are the talents exactly? Yes. And what does all this mean, and where are we going with this? We'll get there.  [01:04:19] Wrap Up and Community Links [01:04:19] Jesse Schwamb: But if you want to hang out a little bit more, speaking of being active, if you wanna get actively involved as opposed to just being passively involved, like listening to our voices- ... then you know where you can find us. You've heard it before, and I don't know why you're there already, but I'm gonna say it again. Go to t.me/reformedbrotherhood in any one of your favorite browsers, and that link will take you to the Telegram app, which is just a messaging place. We have a little corner of the internet where we like to hang out and also talk about the episode. So that's gonna be your place to join into the conversation and share your own thoughts. In addition, if you've ever wondered why all of this is free, why there is no, as I've coined it, at least, Jericho paywall that you have to strike down to find all of these episodes, the reason is because though there are costs to putting this out there, there are so many brothers and sisters that give just a little bit, either one time or consistently, to make sure it goes into your ears. We are grateful, and if you thought, "You know what? I would like to be a part of that because there's been a blessing here that God has given me," then I would say thank you, and you should go to reformedbrotherhood.com, and you can find all of the information there on how to give.  [01:05:27] Tony Arsenal: It's true. I was gonna make a joke about how, like, we expect you to give us a return on your investment by joining the Telegram chat. Now that I've thought a little bit more about that, that feels like maybe not the right joke to make. Little weird. So.  [01:05:39] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.  [01:05:39] Tony Arsenal: Uh, but we do want you to join us. We think it's a lot of fun. We do. We really enjoy it. We also do want you to share this episode with someone. So, um, we've, we've been humbled in the past, um, maybe humiliated in the past, humbled in the past to find that people have used our episodes as starting points for Sunday school classes or discussions with their family or as a way to introduce the gospel to a coworker. I've heard all of those stories. I know of at least one person who found their church and has become a member of their church, uh, because they listen to the podcast. So we, um, we're not delusional. We don't think we're some, like, amazing, miraculous force for God's kingdom. Of course not. But we do recognize that God uses, uh, this silly little podcast in His own ways for His own purposes, and we would love it if you would partner with us. So I just wanna echo that. If, if you are a person who hears this podcast and is benefiting by it and you think, "I would really like to support that," please go to patreon.com/reformedbrother and consider that. Um, because we, we couldn't do this show the way that we do it without the support of the people who listen to it. Um, so please check it out. Join the Telegram chat. We would love to see you.  [01:06:48] Final Sign Off [01:06:48] Tony Arsenal: And Jesse, I can't wait until next week. I mean, I, I, like, can we just- ... like, turn off the episode, start recording the next one? That's what's  [01:06:55] Jesse Schwamb: gonna happen probably. I'm sitting  [01:06:56] Tony Arsenal: on the edge of my bed, literally on the edge of my bed. My wife's gonna be like, "Can I go to sleep?" And be like, "No." No. "We need to record the next episode right now." Not yet. That's, that's not gonna happen. But, uh, Jesse, until next time, when it does happen, honor everyone.  [01:07:09] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood 
• 
  Eschatological Preparedness: Why Watchfulness Means More Than Staying Awake 05.06.2026 1h 5min

  In this follow-up to their discussion of the Parable of the Ten Virgins, Jesse and Tony make a critical discovery about Matthew 25:13 that fundamentally changes how we should read Christ's eschatological parables. The command to "watch therefore" isn't primarily about staying awake—it's about preparedness for Christ's return. This episode explores the grammatical and theological connections between the Parable of the Ten Virgins and the Parable of the Talents, revealing how Matthew 25:13 functions as a hinge verse that binds these parables into a unified teaching on eschatological readiness. The hosts demonstrate how modern chapter divisions and translation choices can sometimes obscure the organic flow of Christ's teaching, and why understanding these connections matters for Christian living today. Key Takeaways Matthew 25:13 is a hinge verse, not an endpoint. The Greek grammatical structure (using post-positive connectors "therefore" and "for") links verses 1-13 forward to the Parable of the Talents, not just backward to the Ten Virgins. Sleep wasn't the problem in the parable. Both the wise and foolish virgins fell asleep. The issue was preparedness—having oil ready before the bridegroom's arrival, not staying physically awake. "Watch" means preparedness, not wakefulness. The better translation of the Greek word emphasizes alert readiness and preparation rather than literal sleeplessness. The Parable of the Talents explains what preparedness looks like. Christ intentionally connected these parables to show that watchfulness manifests in faithful stewardship and fruitful living. Christ himself made these connections. This isn't just Matthew's editorial arrangement—Jesus deliberately taught these parables together as a unified discourse on eschatological readiness. Sanctifying grace is non-transferable. The wise virgins couldn't share their oil because saving grace and the Spirit's indwelling cannot be borrowed or transferred between people. Eschatological ignorance is divinely ordained. Not knowing the day or hour prevents us from delaying obedience until the last moment, which was precisely the foolish virgins' error. Key Concepts The Grammatical Evidence for Connection The discovery that transformed this discussion centers on how Greek post-positive particles function. Both "therefore" (οὖν) in verse 13 and "for" (γάρ) in verse 14 cannot grammatically stand as the first word in a Greek sentence—they must connect to what precedes them. This means verse 13 isn't simply concluding the parable of the virgins; it's simultaneously introducing the parable of the talents. English translations that insert paragraph breaks between these verses may inadvertently suggest a harder separation than exists in the original text. When Christ says "watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour, for it will be like a man going on a journey," He's creating a seamless logical progression: the reason for watchfulness is eschatological uncertainty, and the nature of that watchfulness is illustrated by what follows in the talents parable. Preparedness vs. Wakefulness in Translation Some English translations render Matthew 25:13 as "stay awake" or "keep alert," emphasizing the sleep imagery from the preceding parable. However, this creates a logical problem: if falling asleep was the sin, then both groups of virgins sinned, since the text explicitly states "they all became drowsy and slept" (v. 5). The better understanding recognizes that the Greek word (γρηγορέω) encompasses a broader semantic range including vigilance, preparedness, and readiness—not just physical wakefulness. The wise virgins weren't praised for staying awake; they were praised for having secured oil before the bridegroom's arrival. This preparedness enabled them to respond appropriately when the moment came, regardless of whether they had been sleeping. Translating with an emphasis on sleep therefore misses Christ's point and artificially seals verse 13 off from the explanation that follows. The Perseverance of the Saints in Action This parable sequence reveals an often-overlooked dimension of the doctrine of perseverance: believers must actually do the persevering. While the Holy Spirit enables, empowers, and ordains our perseverance, He doesn't persevere instead of us—He causes us to persevere. The wise virgins' preparedness wasn't passive; they actively obtained oil before it was needed. They prepared for both the bridegroom's arrival and the potential delay. This illustrates that Christian preparedness isn't anxious vigilance or frantic last-minute effort, but the steady, Spirit-enabled work of sanctification, growing in grace, abiding in Christ, and maintaining readiness over the long haul. The Parable of the Talents then unpacks what this looks like practically: faithful stewardship, productive kingdom work, and diligent use of what God has entrusted to us during the time of waiting. Memorable Quotes The difference between foolishness and wisdom in the first parable is not whether or not the virgins fell asleep. It's whether or not they were prepared for the eventual coming of the bridegroom. - Tony Arsenal When God's people take to see and request his eminent and transcendent power in the lives of somebody else through intercessory prayer, a special bond is created that is very real. - Jesse Schwamb Christ himself has strung these different parables together... Christ was the one who decided that the parable of the talents was a proper explainer for the parable of the wise and foolish virgins. - Tony Arsenal Full Transcript [00:00:08] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 495 of the Reformed to Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  [00:00:14] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.  [00:00:18] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. So sometimes the episodes just seem to write themselves, and I say that of course, tongue in cheek from my full providential register. But in the last episode, we went over with great detail, the parable of the 10 virgins, or the 10 bridesmaids found in Matthew 25. And I think we did all the things that we were supposed to do, like contractually. We made really good oil puns. We talked about Petras song, midnight Oil. We talked about 10 bridesmaids, five Ys, five foolish. They're all waiting for the bridegroom who is late because he operates on divine timing. The foolish five run out of oil and begged the five whys to share theirs. The five whys decline, because sanctifying grace is non-transferrable. This is not a potluck. We went through all of that stuff and then what happened is we turned off the microphones and somehow you and I started a, a new conversation about this thing still. And we thought there's more to say and we didn't even expect it. And incidentally, it all hinges on a single word. Yeah. So we're gonna come back to that on this episode because we couldn't help ourselves. And I say that because we couldn't help ourselves. We literally kept talking about this long after the episode had ended. So we wanted to bring it back and it's something new. I think that you and I were really pondering that's gonna be really, really, really good. Yeah. But the other thing that's really good is either affirming with something or denying against something that's the part of the conversation where we either affirm with something that we think is underrated, really exceptional, that we wanna recommend or we deny against something that's just not that great. So Tony, what have you got for us today?  [00:02:04] Tony Arsenal: I'm gonna phrase this in a very particular way, of course, and then I'll explain why I'm phrasing it that way. I'm starting. Great. Um, I am affirming adult baptism upon a profession of faith, and I say it in that particular way. Sure, of course. Um, because I often hear, and I've heard, I mean, I've heard Presbyterian pastors say this, um, I've heard, heard it said that Presbyterians do cradle baptism too. And, uh, and sort of like, sometimes it's kind of in like a, I'm trying to like build a bridge with a, a cradle Baptist. Sure. Um, I actually object to that because the, the basis on which an adult is baptized in a Westminster covenant theology framework is different than the basis, uh, on which a believer is baptized under a traditional Baptist credo, Baptist position. Right. So I'm affirming adult. Profession of faith, baptism or adult baptism upon a profession of faith. Um, and the reason I'm saying that is because my wife and I had this opportunity this morning to go to another church to visit, uh, a friend of ours. It's actually a friend of our son's, which is crazy to say. He's four years old. A friend of our son's from school, his mother, um, who is a Christian, um, but had never been baptized, was being baptized at her church today. And so we got an opportunity to go to their church. It's a church we've been to before. It was not like a brand new church or any, like, super far away. It's a church we've been to before. Um, so we got to go to church and then we went over to the local sort of like swimming hole. Uh, like there's this little, uh, like recreational area called stores pond, I'm sure. Just I know you're familiar with it. Oh,  [00:03:38] Jesse Schwamb: yeah.  [00:03:39] Tony Arsenal: Um, and they did sort of like a testimony ceremony and, uh, all of the baptizes, I don't know if that's the right word, but all of those being baptized. Uh, I would normally call them catechumens, but I don't think that actually that applies here. But all of those being baptized, uh, got up and gave their testimony. There was eight people being baptized, which was fun to see. Um, of course all adults. This is a Baptist, um, a Baptist church that we were visiting. And then we walked over to the, over to the lake and they dunked him in there. And, uh, it was really great to see. And the reason that I'm affirming adult baptism upon a profession of faith, um, uh, is because it's really quite beautiful, right? I think we've, we just recently talked about this, um, and I'm sure we'll talk about it again at some point in the future, but we just recently talked about a baby baptism at my church that, uh, is beautiful in its own right for its own reasons, and it's got its own theological, uh, underpinnings and theological elegance to it. But there's also something just very beautiful about an adult who either has come to faith, um, and I don't, I don't know, um, this woman very well, like I, she's another mom at, um, at Agie school. And so our kids go to school together and so we interact with her periodically at like drop off and other times and they've been over to the house. I don't know her, well, I heard enough of her testimony today to know that she was kind of a nominal Christian. Uh, and they actually started going to church because in order to bring their son to the school that, um, they wanted to go to, which is, uh, the school that my son goes to, the school that your father teaches at, um. You have to have at least one parent needs to be a Christian, needs to be a regular attender, a regular member of a church. And so they, they joined a church, um, to be able to fulfill that requirement. And either, and, and again, I wasn't, I was watching the kids, um, including her son while she was doing this. So I was only kind of hearing with one ear. So either she was a nominal Christian and was kind of like renewing her faith or she was coming to faith for the first time. I'm not sure. But in either case, she had not been baptized previously that I know of. I didn't, I mean, I guess maybe she was baptized as a baby or something, I don't know. But, um, she was being baptized today upon a sort of a new profession of faith or renewal of faith, and it's just very sweet to see. The emotional investment that occurs when someone is recognizing that God's promise is being sealed on them. Right. And I don't know that, I don't know that a lot of traditional Baptist, and this is a pretty like plain Jane Evangelical church. I'm not sure that a lot of evangelicals would really recognize or use that language. But I also think there's an intuitiveness to it that like this is a sign that God gives us. It's gotta be a sign of something. Right. Um, it's not, this was a church that brought sort of broadly Calvinistic part, the baptism of house was actually adopted or adapted from, uh, a modification of question, one of the Heidelberg catechism. So I warned my Presbyterian heart, um. So they're in a context where like covenantal language is not foreign to them, even if it's not the primary structure that they're using. But it was just very sweet and kind and a, a really encouraging, uh, opportunity for the body of Christ to gather. Uh, it was a little bit chilly. It was raining actually, and people, anybody, like everybody was out there and, and in the rain, most people didn't have umbrellas. And you know, people's hair is wet and their clothes are getting wet and nobody cares. Nobody is bothered by it because there is some baptism going on. There's some, uh, some new birth in a roundabout sense and some yes, uh, some, some signification of that new birth in a very direct sense. So that's what I'm affirming today. Adult baptism upon a profession of faith, uh, with an asterisk in a covenantal mode. That's, that's my very specific, very technical affirmation today.  [00:07:19] Jesse Schwamb: There's also something about that's just special. Again, it's not prescriptive, but there's something special about those open water baptisms too. Oh  [00:07:27] Tony Arsenal: yeah.  [00:07:28] Jesse Schwamb: I mean,  [00:07:29] Tony Arsenal: yeah, it was like super picturesque. It was like, I felt like I was on the Jordan with Town of Baptist, like the, like, it was like a, that classic like Baptist minister standing in the water, like it was very right. Very, uh, it looked staged, but I don't think it was, I think it just was actually this, that genuine scenario. [00:07:44] Jesse Schwamb: Right. So, yeah. Yeah. And that's like a beautiful thing. Like we're saying, oh, we're not trying to get into the particulars. It's just to appreciate, I think all of those details. I myself was baptized by my father in a pond and it was glorious. That was, that was special. And there was something about the occasion and the environment as well that was special to me in that. But you're right, like in that Baptist mode, I, I think when it's like properly administered, when it's really appreciated and the theology is rich and richly exemplified in what's happening there to, it's hard not to be moved, I think in the Christian heart, not to be warned by seeing somebody go down into the water to come up into this representation of new life in Christ. I think regardless of your convictions on this, it's hard not to be moved by the power of the spirits.  [00:08:25] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:08:26] Jesse Schwamb: And the sign and seal being delivered to God's people. In a profound way. So whether you're a Pado or Cradle Baptist, I think it really is difficult not to be moved. And especially in an environment like that, you love to see it, right? I mean, this idea of of, um, being able to come to the Lord because he's called you and whatever season of life that is, and then to follow an obedience into baptism is a glorious thing that we should all celebrate. So I love this idea of people on a chilly day in New Hampshire standing in the rain saying, give us the baptism. Like let, let us see the Holy Spirits working through the lives of the people in our midst. Let, we wanna be a part of that. We wanna celebrate that we're here for that.  [00:09:07] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. It was just a, it was just a very, very sweet, like, I, like I said with, when we were talking about the, the baby baptism at my church, it's, there's just a, there's a sweetness to it. It's, yes. It's almost like, um, I've never been present for the birth of someone's child other than my own. Um, I've been at the hospital, uh, so meeting the family and the, the baby like very shortly after birth, but I've never been actually there. But there's something reminiscent to that, whether it's a baby being baptized or an adult being baptized where it's, it's just this sort of sweet moment of introduction to yes, this person with, um. To varying degrees depending on the theology, underlying baptism. But this person with a very real new identity that they have been given, yes, it's, it's, the old has gone, the new has come new creation in Christ. Um, whether, you know, I, I don't affirm baptism or regeneration, right? That's not a reformed position. But whether you have a, a position of some form of baptismal regeneration or baptismal efficacy, which is where kind of the, the reform tradition tends to fall, or even just, uh, I say just, I don't mean just in a peor sense, but like, even if, if what's going on is, is entirely a symbol that you know, is being applied to a person, there is a new sense of identity. There's a, there's a, a mark, a, a physical mark that it isn't persistent like circumcision, but it's a physical mark being applied, a visible mark being applied to, to the person claiming them as God's child. Um, and, and there's something very sweet and genuine. And, and to see, like, just to see, like I said, the, just the emotionality. And not a crass like emotionalism, but a genuine, heartfelt, emotional moment that someone is going through like a real, genuine emotion, um, is also not something we actually see that much in the world anymore, which is, it was nice to see. Anyway, I could, I could blather on about baptism and, and adult baptism and baby baptism and how great it is. Uh, God knew what he was doing and he, he gave us this beautiful symbol. So next time you have an opportunity to experience a adult baptism upon a profession of faith in a covenantal mode, uh, than you make sure you take advantage of that.  [00:11:14] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. You know what it's like for me and certainly I, baptism is way more profound, uh, than this example I'm about to give. But there's something within me that feels similarly or appreciates in a similar way when you're participating or just viewing a wedding. Yeah. Isn't there? There's that new identity. There's the vows and the covenants being made and promises being given and that that's just like a really meaningful, profound thing. And then like, you know, a thousand times, a million times, that is to participate or to witness again, baptism. And in my own church, which is Cradle Baptist, the one I attend, baptism, I'll say it this way in like this most trite way again, is like a super big deal. And one of the things I really appreciate is when that person, after they've given their testimony and they've gone down into the water and they come back up, our congregation goes like wild. Like just wild in celebration. Yeah. And at first I was like, wow, this. This seems like too much. Guys, can we take, can we take it down now? Just the Lord's day after all. And then I was with you in the sense of like, really, it's like we, you and I have talked so much about like the, the way in which you're trying to sometimes manufacture or theologians try to bring in some sense of emotionalism to kind of convey some kind of like, really, so I can demonstrate that I have a heartfelt and genuine commitment and love for God and Christ and you know, we can leave that as it is right now. Here is a place where I think that celebration is like just wholly and totally appropriate.  [00:12:36] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:12:36] Jesse Schwamb: And so I love that there's genuine enthusiasm and excitement over those things. And you're genuinely gonna get that more in the kind of traditional Baptist mode of this thing. I'm just saying celebrate where you celebrate, you know, get in where you fit in. Yeah. And so I think that your admonishment to us and affirmation there is really good. Um, totally about that. And all the better if you can do it in a, on a rainy day in a pond in New Hampshire. That sounds like a glorious spot.  [00:13:02] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah, it's, it was interesting. It was good. It was a good time. Jesse, what do you got for us tonight? [00:13:07] Jesse Schwamb: I'm also gonna go affirmation, and I think we can file this one for me, under seeing the power of God in his, that power demonstrated in his transcendence and in his eminence. All our timing is gonna be off on this, but there's a certain compulsion I have to report back to everybody. And that reporting is really on my wife who did undergo some surgery this week. And I'm about to say a bunch of things medically so you can, I mean, there's nothing in here like grotesque, but I say that because somebody might be like, wow, you're seeing a lot of personal things. I have her permission to share all this. But of course some of you may remember, she spoke on the podcast, I dunno, like a half dozen episodes ago. Go back and listen to that. She talks about her medical journey, but she just had this big surgery. And here's the reason why I want to report back. I sense that when God's people take to see and request his eminent and transcendent power in the lives of somebody else through intercessory prayer, that like a special bond is created that is very real. So I think when somebody comes to their brothers and sisters and says. Would you pray for us? Would you pray for me? That's not just an act. I think of vulnerability. It's one of of truly seeking after what God desires for his people to help and to intercede for one another. And there's something special about that. And then equally special, and I think binding is when people say, yes, I will pray. And they make themselves committed to doing that. When that relationship is established, what I think is like mutual accountability, mutual yielding to one another, mutual submission. The lovely thing about that is I think there ought to be a reporting back. I really feel highly convicted about that because so many people, including those in the from Brotherhood hanging out in the Telegram, TT Me Reform Brotherhood, they have prayed for us. My church has prayed, my parents have prayed. You have prayed. So many people have prayed. And so my wife did go undergo an 11 hour surgery just two days ago. And uh, I can say that that surgery, the doctors, the three surgeons who are working as part of this interdisciplinary team, this multifactorial, multidisciplinary team, were able to accomplish everything that they wanted to do, which was a wild accomplishment. And it was more intense than they thought it was going to be. But I can say to you very, very clearly, very cogently that, uh, God was in the midst of all of these things in a mighty and powerful way. Now, I know people are prone to say that kind of thing. I'm saying it because it was all exceptionally real. Not only as I sat there waiting for the next updates in the waiting room, did I really sense a peace of God that I haven't felt before, even in all of my wife's previous surgeries, when this was the most uncertain, this was the biggest, the highest risk that was all real. But at the very end, and I'll, I'll spare a lot of the details, uh, but at the very, very end when the surgeon reported back to me all the things that they did, which included having to take out a portion of her bowel and stitch it back together again, because she had some endometriosis that had embedded itself in there and that was unknown to them. You can't see that stuff in an MRI and yet God ordained that the right surgeon, the right preparation would be in the room and ready to go if something like that occurred and it did. That she had a full hysterectomy, which we were praying that it would be lack laparoscopic because they were concerned they would not be able to do it that way. And God answered that prayer that she needed to have her ureter, the thing that connects your kidney to your bladder, that also was filled with endometriosis. It had to be resectioned and repaired. And it was that the end of all of this, what the main doctor kept saying to me was, we wanted to put your wife in a position where her anatomy would determine the outcome and that you would have all of the skilled persons in the room to provide the best care, the best expertise possible. And what he said to me at the end is, it's strange things just kept breaking her way. And I said, well, I can tell you why that is. That's because God was answering the prayers of so many people who are praying for her. And so I'm so thankful for everybody who's prayed. She's in a critical time of healing right now. Our prayers now are turning to just that God would solidify the work that he has already accomplished, that there'd be no complications, that all the things that they did, and they did a lot of things. The surgeon in fact said to me at the end, it's gonna feel like she got hit by a truck. And that's actually not a bad description of what we did to her. And so the next days are the ones where we're really pleading for God to do this kind of miraculous healing that he started by providing all the things that he's, he's already done. I, as a husband, cannot be more thankful, more grateful, without words for everybody who has prayed. Uh, for my parents, for you guys, Tony, for all of our friends who reached out for so many people, I've realized I have a part-time job now just answering text messages, uh, on behalf of my wife for those who desperately are loving her through prayer. And again, I think I'd affirmed before. I'll say this very quickly, about the elders praying over her. About what a sweet time that was. Not only did that happen, but uh, unbeknownst to me until a little bit later on in that day did I learn that a bunch of women in the church had taken it upon themselves to schedule an 11 hour block where there was gonna be somebody praying every hour for my wife. And, um. Man, if, if, if this is not what the family of God does for one another, I don't know what they do.  [00:18:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:18:35] Jesse Schwamb: So I'm so grateful. Thank you for everybody who has prayed. I also don't want to testify. That's the power of God and his eminence. And his transcendence is just unreal loved ones. It's unreal, it's otherworldly and he comes in power when his people pray. He does good work and it's very James one. There's a lot that even as I'm worried now about the outcome of this surgery and how it will play out, that I can still somehow truly count it all joy, because it is God who does these things in our lives to test and to prove out our faith and our love towards him, because he's in fact good. And I'm just testifying to that goodness in the midst of this difficulty. So wherever you are at. For whatever it's worth. And I think it's worth a lot. God is faithful. He will do the work that he began, and he will meet us when we need him, where we are at in his loving kindness because of his great mercy. So be encouraged by that. And again, my sincere gratitude.  [00:19:36] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I don't have much that I can add to that. I mean, I, I, I think, um, prayer is an undervalued commodity in the church.  [00:19:48] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:19:49] Tony Arsenal: And. As good and right as it is for us, uh, to pray when there's some big, um, big need like this. Um, and, and there's no, there's no, uh, dishonor or shame in asking for prayer in the big situations. I think sometimes too, like we forget that prayer is just as vital and just as important and just as powerful and just as meaningful and just as everything in the small things. Amen. Um, and, and I also think, you know, sometimes we, maybe this is just me, but like sometimes we go into, we go into a, a scenario like what you and your wife are going in and we sort of like prepare ourselves for. The hard providence to come. Like, I don't know if, if that's where you've been at, but I know when I'm facing things like this, um, I'm, I'm kind of like asking people to pray, expecting God to bring the hard providence.  [00:20:43] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:20:44] Tony Arsenal: Um, and maybe that's just a coping mechanism to sort of like get out in front of it in case he does. Um, but like that God, God doesn't, uh, how do I wanna say this? I don't think that God takes any particular joy in bringing the par, the hard providences. Mm-hmm. And I actually think he does take a particular joy in answering the prayers of his people unto good effect. Um, I think there's a particular joy that God brings when he, God has in his own divine accommodated, anthropo, pathic way, um, when he can make sure that everything just breaks the right way for his children. Right. In a really difficult, complex, long surgery. Um, and all of the butterfly effect elements of, of how all of those different things are gonna, you know, spread out. Right. I don't know if this surgeon's gonna come to faith because you attributed his success in this surgery to, you know, to, to God. I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. Um, but, but either way, there are a thousand, a million imperceptible little ways that God's providence flows out of these kinds of situations that we will never know. Um, and he, he takes great joy in answering the prayers of his people and. Yes, it's true that when God, when we ask God for bread, he does not give us a stone even when he gives us the hard providences, right? The hard providences are not a stone, but he likes to give us really good bread.  [00:22:10] Jesse Schwamb: Amen.  [00:22:10] Tony Arsenal: And I think at times, um, we, we sort of almost doubt that he is able and willing and joyful to do so. So that's more, I think, more a reminder for me than it is for anyone else. 'cause I, I have a tendency to prep myself for the hard providences, um, before they come and, and pray to that effect that God would comfort me in the midst of whatever trials is coming. Um, maybe I need to show a little bit more faith in a good God who gives good gifts, um, to pray and thank him in advance for the good providence is the, the easier the soft providence is that he has in store for his people as well.  [00:22:46] Jesse Schwamb: Well, I think we all need that reminder from time to time and I, again, I like where you've taken that. It is a good reminder to pray for the people that you love around you all the time, or just ask. What's something that you would like some prayer for, especially maybe something that you can't pray for yourselves through this time? I can't tell you how many times somebody has asked to pray with me or for me, and they pray in ways that just astound me. I dunno if that makes sense. Yeah. Like just, I get off the phone and I think, well, that was spirit filled because I didn't know that I needed to hear those words. I didn't know exactly like what needed to be stitched together in terms of the requests that would really minister to my heart and provide me encouragement. But course the Lord knows, and even in prayer as you're saying, he's giving that good gift to each other.  [00:23:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:23:35] Jesse Schwamb: When we pray with one another, when we pray for one another, it's just a remarkable thing that I fail to understand and I definitely fail to appreciate. So in this season of being able to see it very clearly as if like the clouds. Parted and I could see some of this power of prayer and what God does in prayer, what God does to us in the prayer of others. I can't help but testify again. I feel it is my duty to do so, actually. So be encouraged, loved ones that this is a powerful weapon that God gives us. I think you and I have said before, Tony, maybe we can also partly this into like another reform. A brotherhood bumper sticker. I said another, like, we have bumper stickers. We don't, we definitely should. At some point  [00:24:17] Tony Arsenal: we do have at least one cross stitch pillow floating around out there  [00:24:20] Jesse Schwamb: somewhere. That's true. Yes. We need to get our hands on that. And maybe here's something else we could add to it, which is of course, when, when we work, we work, but when we pray, God works. And so I've just been reminded of that over and over and over again. The situation, like you said in the big times and the small times, what a blessing, what God is like this, who cares. Who again, is what I've been thinking about is how high and lifted and transcendent God is, so that like he's not moved in, uh, in a dis, like a passionate way by this nonsense of our world. He's steady and steadfast. You know, Isaiah 26, like our God is an everlasting rock, and yet he's eminent in sending his son to identify with the kind of pain even my wife is in right now. In her time of trial and struggle. He is there and yet separated and so powerful that he orchestrates all the details himself. I mean, what God is like this.  [00:25:11] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:25:11] Jesse Schwamb: So this is the one to whom we get to bend his ear, as it were, and we'll avail ourselves of that opportunity. Always. You're gonna have to stop it, Tony. Otherwise, I'm, this whole episode is just gonna be me talking about, which would not be bad, I suppose, but me talking about how good our God is, I suppose we can talk about that actually in the context of Matthew 25. [00:25:30] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. You better watch yourself before you wreck yourself. Is that how it goes? But I did that, that took a month off of podcasting. I forgot how to do transitions. Not that we were ever great at transitions. It's just slamming into gear  [00:25:43] Jesse Schwamb: now. That loved one's a segue that you, you don't even know about yet. You didn't even get it. So let me help you try to get it. 'cause I, I wanna do this quickly, but of course it's always the best part of our conversations where we can get to the scripture. Let me read just the first, uh, 13 verses Matthew 25, and I'm gonna read them from the version that I read on the last episode because part of the fun of this conversation that Tony I had had subsequently was, do you remember what you said to me, Tony, about, about the, this, I don't wanna say the word yet, but this word. [00:26:10] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I, what I remember is, um, feeling confused because I, I said, I thought this was like a Mandela effect kind of thing. Yes. We might have to, I'll explain briefly what that is in that I could have swore this word was in the, in the Bible. Like I was, it was so ingrained in my head that this was there. And then I'm trying to find it in my, my version that I'm bringing in. It's not there. And the obvious answer is it actually was there in the version that Jesse was reading and is there in many translations. Um, so we'll, we'll read the translation, uh, Jesse read, and then we'll talk about why not only why this is, uh, important in the light of our last conversation, but actually how it's important in light of what will likely now be the beginning of our conversation on the next parable, and in the next week or maybe two of, of the discussion of the parable of the talents here, or one of the parable and talents. [00:26:57] Jesse Schwamb: So this is Matthew 25, beginning in verse one. Then the kingdom of heaven may be compared to 10 virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the body groom. Now five of them were foolish and five are prudent. For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps. Now, while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep. But at midnight there was a shout. Behold the bridegroom come out to meet him. Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said to the prudent, give us some of your oil for our lamps are going out. But the prudent answered saying, no, there will not be enough for us. And you go to and instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves. And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast and the door was shut. And later the other virgins also came saying, Lord, Lord, open for us. But he answered and said, truly, I say to you, I do not know you. Therefore, stay awake for you. Do not know the day nor the hour.  [00:28:02] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. So the part of this, uh, passage that I was having, like a brain cramp on and couldn't figure out is actually verse 13 and, um. The reason this is important and ties in, and this is part of why Jesse and I after we sort of had like a second, the beginning of a second episode, following the last episode, um, wanted to come back, is that this, this verse in verse 13 actually makes, um, in effect it makes the second parable that we're gonna talk about the parable of the talent here. It actually makes that parable like an extension of the first one or maybe an explanation of the first one, or further clarification. I'm not sure. It, it links the two together in a way that's really significant. So we need to make sure we really understand. Verse 13, and I'm gonna read verse 13 in my translation to demonstrate kind of where I think the, the question starts and says, watch therefore for, you know, neither the day nor the hour. And what Jesse and I kind of like marveled at is, um, the word for watch, uh, it's actually the same word we get the name Gregory, for, uh, from, um, the, the idea of being wakeful or alert or not falling asleep. That's that's there in the word. Um, and, and I don't think it's a bad translation. I don't. I always, um, wanna be really hesitant to sort of like make an argument that you wanna like build an entire theological point on a translation or a mistranslation. I think those are really shaky arguments, and even more than that, I don't ever wanna make an argument that makes it so people feel like they can't trust their English bibles. So the, the difference between the version that Jesse read with, you know, statements of being awake or stay awake or be alert versus watch, or more generalized alertness language, which is I think probably a better, not, not that the other one's bad, but this is probably a better translation. And it's a translation decision that's trying to connect that verb back to something that was said about the virgins. Right, right. The, the virgins, um, and this is, this is where our conversation went, is actually the, the sort of like real time epiphany that Jesse and I had, maybe I just had Jesse new, the, the sort of like real time epiphany that both, both groups of virgins fell asleep. Right. And so being asleep is not the necessary, it's not the thing that makes the virgins foolish.  [00:30:35] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.  [00:30:36] Tony Arsenal: The, the translation, I think, I mean, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, not like a mind reader and I haven't read anything from the translation committees that explain that this is why they did it. But I'm, I'm, I think it's reasonable to think they translated in light of that wakefulness element of being alert because of the fact that the virgins fell asleep and they were sort of caught off guard when the bridegroom came. But the reason I think that's an over translation is exactly the dynamic we pointed out last week, falling asleep was not the problem,  [00:31:04] Jesse Schwamb: right?  [00:31:05] Tony Arsenal: What was, what was the problem was not being prepared. And so this concept of watch, therefore is more, I think is more about preparedness because of the fact that the parable is about preparedness, not about wakefulness. So when we wanna think about translations, yes, verse 13 comes after verses one through 12, but there's this little word therefore that connects this one with the next one, right? And so it's watch therefore for, you know, neither the day nor the hour. If that was the end of, end of the book of Matthew, right, right there, then that therefore would be like, because of what I just said, watch for, you neither know the day nor the hour, you know, neither the day nor the hour. But then in verse 14, it starts with four. It will be like a man going on a journey who called his servant and entrusted them through his property. That word for, that's another connecting logic word. So it's watch therefore, so like, because of what I just said, be alert, watch, be wakeful, be mindful, be prepared for, you know, neither the day or the hour. Four, because it will be like a man going on a journey, right? The reason you have to watch is partially, or the reason you have to watch is that you will neither know the day nor the hour. And the reason you will neither know the day nor the hour is because it will be like a man who's going on a journey called his servants and entrusted them to his property, right? So these two parables are connected and we have to sort of like understand what that watch word means and how it relates to the previous parable to understand now what it is that the next parable is trying to say and how the two relate to each other.  [00:32:45] Jesse Schwamb: I think that's right. It's like you said before, we talked about last time, it's not that sleep was the problem. That's not where the condemn nation comes in. It's merely that sleep revealed the lack of preparedness. Right. Like I suppose if you wanted to change it up, you could be like, and then they all played Uno for a while and the lambs were going strong and then suddenly the bride coon came out and it was like, okay, well it was the fact that all the lamps were still burning. Yeah. But as they were still burning and that time was passing and the bridegroom delayed, providentially, then it was only those imbued with that grace who already I prepared for that moment in time. Not that they were all playing Uno itself. So, which, which I know this is like my own translation, which is horrible, but. It is important if somebody thinks like we're overworking this.  [00:33:26] Tony Arsenal: Right?  [00:33:26] Jesse Schwamb: It's important, I think, because it, it's gonna set up the next stuff, which we're gonna get to, uh, I presume in the next episode. But this verse is, is like a, is like kind of like the keystone. It's, it constitutes like the entire moral conclusion of both this parable, but the other two that are just like it, that come before it in different ways. And of course it's like structurally parallel to a bunch of like mark and stuff that we may or may not get to. And then it echoes like the broader, all that discourse as well. So I was just looking up quickly, mark 13, in other words like where do we hear this same type of language? Where does it almost rhyme in our minds? And so if you go over just to mark 1333, and this is the parable of the fig tree. So we won't get into that there, but you'll see kind of like the same conclusion, the same, I kind of high and lifted point at the end. And this is where Jesus says, see to it, keep on the alert. For you do not know when the appointed time will come. So instead, really what we're getting at is there's all this language about watchfulness, like the, the present imperative in Greek. Keep on watching, be continuously a work, uh, alert, but it's not like watchfulness in this like anxious, vigilant, kind of nervous energy uncertainty, but it's the prepared readiness of one who has oil in the vessel and knows that the bridegroom is coming regardless of whether you fall asleep. [00:34:46] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And again, you know, the, the way that, um, the way that English translations are broken up into paragraphs and into, with headings and editorial content and chapter divisions and verse divisions, um, those things are all helpful and they're all really useful and I'm glad they're there. Uh, they're not inspired though, right? They're not the word of God. The, the, for the little, the little super script 14 before the word four and the little super script 13 before the word watch. Is not, it's not inspired and neither is the little, at least in the version I'm looking at on logs Bible start, neither is the little paragraph break that separates these two. So we, we can equally read and again, like I haven't done a full Greek exo treatment of this and maybe I should to, to know whether there is actually some real specific grammatical reasons why we would break these. There probably is, but we could equally read it saying, but he answered truly I say to you, I do not know you watch therefore for, you know, neither the hour or the day nor the hour. For it will be like a man going on a journey who called his sermon or we could read it, watch therefore for, you know, neither the day nor the hour for it will be like a man going on a journey. Right, right. We can, we can, the way that we read it, we can, we can clump verse 13 with what comes before it and sort of imply a full break or we can clump it with what comes after it and imply a full break before it. In reality, we shouldn't do either of those. Right. This is in, this is linked together in the, the Bible specifically to take these two parables. And pull them together. Right. Thematically, they're the same. They match, they, they have kind of this rhyming nature that like, there's, there's this theme of like, these people who have a specific task and they accomplish it to greater or lesser degree. And the ones who do it, right, the ones who do it well are rewarded in some sense because of their preparedness and their diligence. And again, I, I don't, um, I know that we can't overemphasize this because this is God's word, right? Right. The, the difference between foolishness and wisdom in the first parable is not whether or not the virgins fell asleep. It's, it's whether or not they were prepared for the eventual coming of the bridegroom, meaning that they had everything they need, not only to, um, and this is a, a real time realization I'm having here, not only to be ready when the bridegroom came, but to be prepared for the long haul until he came. Right. I think that's actually probably another big part of this pearl that we didn't even really talk about is that there's a, there's a, um. There's an implied statement here about the, the, um, perseverance of the saints in the fact that the saints have to persevere. Right? That's a corollary of the doctrine, of the perseverance of the saints, is that we actually have to do the persevering, right? Empowered by the spirit. Enabled by the spirit. Ordained by the spirit, of course, but that doesn't mean the spirit is the one who's persevering, right? Right. The spirit is not persevering for us. The spirit is causing us to persevere, but it's still us that he's causing to persevere. That's a major part of that. This next parable and, and we'll read, we'll read the parable here and then we'll get into some of the beginning part. I think this next parable here is really about like what does that perseverance look like? What does that diligence until the master comes, looks like. It's kind of like taking this, this period of time where the bride groom is delaying and the virgins all are becoming drowsy and sleeping. Well, what does that actually look like? What does it look like for the virgins who have gotten the oil ahead of time versus the virgins who waited and then had to go buy it? Well, the parable of the talents in this next passage shows us what it means to be prepared. And part of what it means to be prepared is to be diligently working to advance the kingdom of God diligently working to pursue and excel in righteousness, insofar as it depends on us, and insofar as we're empowered by the Holy Spirit. So these two, these two parables are linked together and um. Maybe we're falling into this trap a little bit, although I think because of the way we're kind of doing these, these passages in sort of organic fashion, rather than really insisting on sort of hermetically sealing off each parable, we have a tendency, I think to say like, this parable is this right? This parable is that. And we don't really ever talk about them unless you're in like a parables of Christ Seminary class or like you're reading a book on the parables of Christ. Um, if you're just sort of looking at popular teaching on parables or you're. Like a sermon series through the parables. I don't think you're gonna run into a lot that's gonna show these connections and relationships between the parables in the way that I think we're, I'm stumbling upon is maybe not right. But that's what it feels like. We're sort of like discovering in real time together that these parables are so organically linked to each other that we really can't seal them off from each other or we do some violence to the text.  [00:39:36] Jesse Schwamb: Right on. Yeah. And speaking of that whole life, whole preparedness, whole watchfulness, John Owen writes, in the mortification of sin, the whole of Christian living may be described as a preparation for eternity, mortifying sin, growing in grace, abiding in Christ, waiting for his appearing, which really strikes me as maybe a summary of like an umbrella of all of these parables of ones that we've just seen most recently and the ones that we're about to go into because. The ground for the watchfulness here is that like legitimate eschatological ignorance. This is like a deliberate, divinely ordained uncertainty. So of course, like knowing the precise moment would just tempt the flesh to delay until the last possible moment, which is precisely the error of the foolish virgins who assume that there was enough time to obtain the oil after that midnight cry. So all of this is happening right now. Like I, I do think this verse is just so critical now. It's like really a weird linchpin. It is like the capstone in a strange way of like the three parable sequence in the olive discourse, which we already talked about, the 10 virgins, the talents, and the sheep and the goats. Because it strikes me as you were speaking, Tony, what was coming to my mind is like each is almost escalating from, as it were, like a watchfulness to like a fruitfulness, to like a final judgment. And each of those are kind of building on each other. In other words, like there is a logical consistency and chronology to those things that Christ is leading us through. And the verse therefore doesn't stand alone. It's like this hinge between the eschatological warning of the virgin narrative and the productive stewardship demanded in the parable of the talents. And I think unless you see that here, it's like saying, listen, the watchful person does this. You know, why should you be watchful because of this example I've just given to you. So within that Oliver discourse, there's the exhortation to watchfulness, which occurs with that striking force. Stay awake, be ready, watch. And of course, I think we're just joining in all the reform exe and the pros who had this instinct of reading those with a unity. Yeah. The whole discourse is like the L, the Lord's own like pastoral Herman Hermeneutic, I guess on like Daniel nine or whatever. So like it is important, and I think it is maybe a bridge that, at least in my mind, I often didn't build or didn't seem necessarily because you're like, well this, this ends one. And the warning is to be watchful. And now here's something else. That's something interesting you should consider. Yeah. But really this is all one and the same, all, all. Maybe one like well like parable to rule all parables, like it's a single parable told in many sequential pieces.  [00:42:06] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Which is something we saw before, right? Yes. And maybe, maybe not to belabor the point and, and again taking, take this in the context of me saying I never want to try to make an argument that you must be able to read Greek in order to profit from the scriptures. [00:42:20] Jesse Schwamb: Sure.  [00:42:20] Tony Arsenal: All of that said, it's very helpful to understand a little bit about how Greek works, even if you don't actually learn Greek. So for example, and here's, I promise you that this is not just me being nerdy about Greek. I'm looking at the ESV and verse 13 says, watch therefore for, you know, neither the day nor the hour. Right? So the, the command comes, uh, before the logical connector that sort of like, is explaining why, right? Because of, because of something. Right? When it's the thing that comes before, maybe it's the thing that comes after, usually it's probably before, but because of this thing, watch therefore for, you know, neither they or the hour, right? And then in verse 14 it says four. It will be like a man going on a journey. This is where I think understanding how Greek works a little bit is important. Both the word therefore and the word for. In Greek, which it's, it's therefore it's un OUN or omega upsilon new un and gar for four. Both of those are what's called post positive, and what that means is that it cannot be the first word in a sentence. So, um, verse 13 is translated very word order, literal watch. Therefore that ma matches the Greek very closely. Verse 14 is not right, right. Verse 14, if you translated it very literally would be like, uh, let's see. Would be. Just as for a man, and I get like, you can hear there, right there, why we don't translate it that way is 'cause it's really awkward, but it's just as for a man, uh, a man went on a journey or a man, um, going on a journey who called his servants. Right. The, the point of what I'm trying to say here though is that that subtle variation in the verb, the command coming first versus this post positive, logical connector coming first, that that sort of like gears your brain towards a certain conclusion. Right? Right. Watch, therefore we, we have a tendency to think like watch connects to the previous one. Right? This verb must connect us to the previous one, where the next one we see four being the beginning of a word, beginning of a sentence. We feel like that's the beginning of a new thought, right? This logical connector at the be very beginning of a sentence is like starting a new thought. The problem with that is, one, it doesn't actually match the Greek word order in both cases. Neither of these is the first word of the sentence, but let's just think of it in as a post positive and say that it should have been the first word of the sentence, but the Greek grammar won't allow it to be.  [00:45:00] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:45:01] Tony Arsenal: That connector in both cases is linking us to the previous sentence, and that means both of these sentences are linking us to the previous sentence, meaning both segments of thought are linked to other together. Verse 14 is linked to verse 13, and verse 13 is linked to verse 12. There's no good grammatical reason that I can see with the 30 seconds of looking at it and the five semesters of Greek, right? Keep that in mind. I'm not an expert, but there's no good reason I see immediately from the Greek text, right? There are certain phrases and indicators in Greek that tell you like, this is a new segment of thought. I don't see those here. What I see is a very strong, strong, logical sequence of connection between 13 and 14, right? Therefore, watch for, you know, neither the day nor the hour. Well. Going back to our discussion about translating that in terms of sort of general watchfulness or preparedness or translating it in light of sleep. These are the things that are important for us to think about when we're reading English translations. 'cause this keys us off to what the, what the translators thought in terms of what belongs with what translators. Even though there's a paragraph break here in the ESV, the translation that says be awake or be, you know, uh, do not sleep like this language that's specifically connected to this, like not falling asleep aspect of watchfulness, they're signaling to you that this sentence belongs with the parable above it. Right. Almost exclusively. Right. Because there's nothing in the next parable that has anything to do with being awake or sleeping.  [00:46:35] Jesse Schwamb: Right?  [00:46:36] Tony Arsenal: Right. So, so by translating it as sleep language or do not sleep language, they're sealing it off from the parable that follows and they're kind of like making it this firm break in the text. That's not there in the Greek. That language is not there in the Greek. And it's, um, again, I think the sleep language, that's certainly a part of this word and it's, it's fine for us to interpret this word in light of the parable that came before it, as long as we're not letting that interpretation of it in light of the word that came before it seal it off from the next parable. And I, I worry that if we, if we think about it in terms of the sleepiness aspect of it, which again, there's already some contextual reasons why that doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would, why would Christ command to the people that are listening to him be about not falling asleep when falling asleep was not the problem in the, in the bearable He's told. Right, right. But the problem was, was be prepared. And it actually may be, this is also maybe an overt translation. A better translation might be, be prepared, therefore, right. Be alert, be wakeful, be be mindful, be uh, be on top of things. Right. Be ready for anything. Might be a good way to look at this. Be ready for anything for you. Neither know the day nor the hour. Four. It will be like a man going on a journey and called his servants and entrusted them to his property. So he tells the parable of the virgins, which is, is all about being prepared for the sudden, unexpected coming of the Lord after a delay, after he tarries. And then he says, for it will be like a man going on a journey. Well, what will be like a man going on a journey? The coming of the Lord, the coming of the bridegroom, the coming of the one, the promised one from the previous parable, the bride groom. For that will be like a man going on a journey for the day on the hour, which you do not know. That will be like a man going on a journey, I think. Um, and this will be the last thing I say before I, I let you jump in and, and we're getting close to ending anyways here. I think that, um, these parables are so often, uh, this parable about the talents and the parallels. I mean, there's several different par uh, parables that have to do with this theory. This sort of like scenario of like a master is giving some, some funds to his servants, or a man going on a journey. He's giving some funds to his servants and he expects them to make a return. Right? That's a, there's multiple parables that tell that same basic principle. This one here. Is an eschatological one, but I think it gets clumped in with the others in sort of this idea. And it doesn't hurt that the word talents has a meaning in English, right? It gets clumped in with these sort of like way of teaching this that's like Christ has given you some special abilities and some gifts, you better use it for his glory. Or you're all done. That's not really at all what this is talking about, at least this version of it. You might be able to make an argument for some of the others that that is about kingdom fruitfulness and, and to much is given, much is expected, right? That's the output of those parables. This one is really, it's explicitly about being prepared for this sudden arrival of the bridegroom, uh, after he delays, after he tarries. So that's all I'll say for now on that. I just, this is. This is why we had to do another episode, right? Like, because we couldn't do all of this Last week we started and we were like, we gotta push pause, save something for next week. This is one of those like realtime discoveries, realtime uh, epiphanies that I'm just like, I cannot believe I didn't see this in the text before, but I'm so glad that we're doing this deep dive. This sort of like long running slow burns through these parables because these are the kinds of things we're able to see when we really slow down and take our time.  [00:50:17] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's that good old like crockpot theology. I'm with you. There is like in the next par we'll see a kind of manifest fruitfulness that comes from a preparedness and if, if we divorce that we're gonna get to the end of the next parable. And I think what we'd find is that, wow, the master seems super harsh here. Why is he so ticked off that the people with whom he entrusted all of these resources didn't do anything with them? It just seems like he's overzealous in saying, well, you just wasted a lot of things until you see like that full emphasis that comes all the way through these other parables in terms of the reason why. Then I think it starts to make more sense. So I did have to look it up like you're right, that the NIV has therefore keep watch. The King James version also is using watch, therefore. So if that's the emphasis, in other words, if the thrust is you ought to be watchful and prepared in all of your life for all the things preparing for Christ, doing the things in the work of Christ. Now it makes sense that to go away again and to have this time of not knowing when the perusia happens and being unprepared and unfruitful because you were not watchful, because you did not do the things you ought to have done and be making yourself again aware and vigilant in that awareness, then there's a problem. And that's like gonna be, I think, the full thrust of what's gonna happen that we're gonna see next when we look into this parable. I think it's important to remember that this parable is not as it sometimes is presented like an allegorize timeless moral maxim that's divorced from its eschatological referring. Yeah, the 10 virgins are figures of those awaiting Christ perusia. The oil is not some kind like vague symbol of like good works in a ian sense, but I think it's best understood as the reality of saving grace and the spirits in dwelling, which cannot be borrowed or transferred. If all of that is true. Then how does that manifest in daily living? What does that look like? And then what does that lead to on the day of judgment? All of that is to come for us, but it actually starts in this verse here in verse 13, just with the simple, very direct, but e expressly articulated phrase, be watchful or be prepared. Maybe like a better incidentally, like contemporary treatment would be like, don't sleep on this. Like, I like the word sleep in that context. Yeah. Which of course, when somebody says that to you, they're not actually meaning like, don't fall asleep now. But make sure that you're paying attention to this thing. Get after this thing, go and grab this thing, get a hold of this very thing. Make it your priority. And I think really that is what is Christ is after here as he moves us from one example into another. That's almost, again, to me like the manifestation or the outworking 'cause because one might ask, and maybe this is like a good question, he was anticipating, you hear that story and we're just used to like things moving, or like you said, like discreet chunks of text, which we appropriate for ourselves. We take out, it's almost as they have little boxes on the shelf and we remove that box. We look at it, we study it, we turn over, we put it back, and it's a little compartment place. And instead you can imagine, uh, as I could, I think if you were hearing this in the context of conversation, of teaching in this way, that you might say like, so what? Like be prepared for what, how do we get prepared? What does preparedness look like? And so that's what's coming for us next.  [00:53:34] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. And you know, the other thing I think that's, um, important for this parable, um, there are some places in the scripture in the, uh, in the gospels where Christ's teaching and nothing specific comes to mind. So this is. Hypothetical, but I know there are actual places. I just can't think of anything right off the top of my head. There are some places where sort of like discrete chunks of Christ's teaching are juxtaposed next to other discreet chunks. Sure. That's an editorial decision by the gospel author. Right. Matthew makes a decision to put this story next to this story, and we might see in Luke actually, it's slightly different. A good, a good example would be like in the temptation narratives, um, the order of the Temptations is different I think between Matthew and Luke. Right. And there's, there's an editorial decision that's made there and there's a theological reason. I don't know off the top of my head what it is. I'm sure I studied it in, you know, like gospels class in seminary. Um, that's not what's happening here, right? These are not two discreet chunks of text. That Matthew has decided to put together, right? Right. Christ is the one that says, watch therefore for you. Neither know the day nor the hour for it will be like a man going on a journey. Christ is the one who has decided, and this is one chunk of teaching. There's, um, like the Sermon on the Mount, I guess is maybe the classic example. The, the fact is Jesus probably did not deliver that entire section of text in one sitting. Um, and in fact, actually it's, it's more likely that there was much more teaching going on in that like, section of text that that's not recorded. So Matthew has made an editorial decision to probably truncate Christ's actual teaching for a specific theological purpose, right? That's not what's going on here. Christ himself has strung these different parables together, and we know that because Christ is the one who, who is using. Um, granted Christ was probably speaking in Aramaic Matthews exercising some editorial discretion in what, what words he's using when he translates Christ's words into Greek from Right. Probably Aramaic. Um. But whatever he's saying, Christ is the one that was originating these, these logical connections, right? Arame has these same kind of logical connector words, and Matthew is choosing Greek words to translate them, but Christ himself, um. In his human mode of teaching his human nature. Right? Christ as the master teacher who has to think about discursively, has to think about what teaching he's going to give and in what order and how is he gonna connect them. Right? Not in the sense of like, the Holy Spirit is inspired, this text, so of course it comes together in an intentional way. But Christ, when he planned, or, or as he was spontaneously delivering this, you know, I'm not sure if like Christ sat down and like wrote out his sermons or thought out his sermons ahead of time. [00:56:34] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:56:35] Tony Arsenal: Um, Christ was the one who decided that the parable of the talents, uh, was a proper explainer for the parable of the, the fool wise and foolish virgins. Christ was the one who decided that, um, that because of what he said in verses one through 13 of Matthew 25, because of that. Uh, he, we need to be watchful and that, uh, because we need to be watchful or just as, uh, like the day or the hour, it will be like a man going under that was Christ's decision to put those together. Right. So I think we've talked about this almost like tangentially in another context that it, it's a little bit interesting. Um, I'm not personally a fan of like chronological Bible readings. I don't know if you and I have talked about this before, but like the Bible is inspired, right? Right. And God chose to put the cannon, uh, although I could be convinced that the, the canonical arrangement might be. Holy Spirit, something along the lines of inspired, right? There's certain elements that I think go together by providence. Um, but, but for sure within the text, the, the, within a given body of text, the final form of the text we have is an inspired arrangement, right? Um, that is just as true when we're talking about, uh, not wanting to do chronological Bible readings because it breaks up inspired texts. There's nothing immoral about that. I just don't like it. 'cause God chose for certain texts to be next to each other within the Book of Chronicles, for example. Or within the Psalms, for example. Um. That's the same dynamic that's going on here, right? This is not, um, not only within the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, but within Christ's own human mind as he's planning and formulating this teaching and delivering it, versus one through 13 is inextricably linked with verses 14 and following. Um, and I know that we're, we're not even gonna have enough time to read verses 14 and following. 'cause that's kind of how we roll on this as we spend an hour talking about what we're gonna talk about before we actually talk about it.  [00:58:41] Jesse Schwamb: That's  [00:58:41] Tony Arsenal: right. But I think it was important for us to sort of like land that connection and really nail it because. Again, I will just speak for myself. The idea of reading these two parables together as a pair, as a, as a cohesive whole, as a single unit in Christ's teaching is totally new to me starting last week. Like this is a totally new  [00:59:05] Jesse Schwamb: I  [00:59:05] Tony Arsenal: agree. Way of looking at this. It probably shouldn't be  [00:59:08] Jesse Schwamb: right.  [00:59:08] Tony Arsenal: Um, like I said, most of the commentaries that you look at are gonna tell you that these two are connected. If, if they're worth their salt, um, because of this grammatical constructs and e even just be thematically, they make sense. But in the sort of cursory look that I've had and the various ways that I've been taught these parables in. This is not a slam on youth ministry. 'cause I love those who minister to our youth. And I think it's important, but especially in the context of youth ministry. I made a joke earlier about how the word talent sort of like directs us to a certain understanding of what this passage means, and we'll talk about that when we get there.  [00:59:44] Jesse Schwamb: Right. I,  [00:59:44] Tony Arsenal: I think that's actually like really a dynamic that's a problem. And this sort of like, you better live your life for Jesus. Like, don't waste your retirement. Like that kind of like language, um, that often uses this parable as like a, you better be working hard for Jesus because when he comes back you wanna have those 10 cities when you get to heaven. Not just the five. Like that, that is a distortion at minimum. That's a distortion of what this parable is actually teaching, if not a downright like contradictory teaching. I think in some ways,  [01:00:19] Jesse Schwamb: right. I totally agree with you. I think the best way I can think about this now after we've had this conversation for an hour is lemme provide an old school example for anybody that's ever seen Wheel of Fortune. It occurred to me that they have this particular puzzle, which I had to look up 'cause I couldn't remember what it was called, but it's a phrase puzzle. It's made by stringing two phrases together that share a common word. Yeah. So one phrase is a word at the end, one at the beginning. So examples might be like, back to the future party or home sweet homework or break the ice cream or piece of cake walk. What strikes me now is verse 13 is this, that's the linchpins, the phrase. That phrase puzzle here, that brings together the parable of the divergence and the parable of the talents, and they share that middle part in joint connection so that there is a smooth transition from one to the other. So much so that you don't even realize, or probably shouldn't realize that they are different. But merely that's, it's not, it's more than a continuation, right? It is bringing together, again, an example of what it means to be aware that you need to be prepared, and then what it looks like that your preparedness has taken place. So I think at least today, what we've learned is that this verse again, of course, teaches clearly that Christ is coming and nobody knows when, and that the only then fitting response is a spirit sustained readiness expressed in every dimension of life. And so I think next week we're gonna get into an example of what that looks like.  [01:01:42] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. Well, Jesse, this has been a phenomenal conversation today. I'm really edified. It has, you know, as we. You and I talked about last, last week before we, after we turned off the microphones, like it's been so edifying to me to just work my way through these parables slowly. Right? Um, I found the same thing when we worked through Mica and, and even, even when like working through the Scot's confession slowly. Like there's something about taking. A, a topic and, and of course like God's word is the supreme topic, but something about going through I'm, I'm stealing a book out or a, a play outta Matt Whitman's book here, actually. Like, I so appreciate the blessing in my life that working through these parables has been, and honestly, I don't think I would ever have slowed down enough in these kinds of parables apart from the fact that we're doing this on the podcast. And so I wanna say thank you to our podcast audience. Um,  [01:02:40] Jesse Schwamb: yes,  [01:02:41] Tony Arsenal: we've commented in the past and I think we mean it, but although, although we mean it, I'm not always a hundred percent. It's true. Um, we would probably be having these kinds of conversations or similar conversations without microphones. Like Jesse and I text with each other, we chat with each other regularly. I don't think we would sit down and work our way through the parables verse by verse, right. Over the course of years, probably. No. Um, you know, as, uh, if it wasn't for the podcast, so thank you to the people who listen to our show, who give us a good excuse to do this. Like Yeah. Amen. There's not a lot of people who can justify taking an hour or two hours outta their week to just sit down and talk about theology. Um, I know we all love, we all wish we could do that, and we all love when we have the sort of random opportunity to sit down with someone and just chat theology for a couple hours. But Jesse and I get to do that every week and it's been a huge blessing for more than 10 years now. We're coming up on 500 episodes. Um, it's been a huge blessing in my life. I know it's been a blessing in Jesse's life. My, our wives might not always say it this way, but I can tell you actually it's been a blessing in their lives. [01:03:48] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, for sure.  [01:03:48] Tony Arsenal: I know that there have been times that my wife has been benefited from, from not just things she's heard on the podcast. My, this is gonna sound so grandiose, and it's not meant to be like, my ability to lead as a husband and to love my wife is improved when God sanctifies me. And the podcast has been a source of sanctification Right on for my life. Right on. So thank you so much to everyone who puts their trust in us and literally lets us beam our thoughts directly into your brain every week. Uh, it's a huge blessing and an honor, and we take that very seriously. So I, and there's no, I'm gonna just like, there's no Patreon hook now. If you guys wanna donate, you know how to do that. This is just a genuine thank you for trusting us and for giving us the opportunity to do this work, this theology publicly together. It's a huge blessing in my life.  [01:04:37] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I agree. I'll listen. Loved ones. You don't have to take our word for it. You know what to do, honor everyone.  [01:04:44] Tony Arsenal: Love that brotherhood. 
• 
  The Ten Virgins Parable: Preparedness Is Not Perfection 01.06.2026 1h 1min

  In this profound exploration of Matthew 25:1-13, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb unpack the parable of the ten virgins, revealing it as far more than a simple warning about preparedness. Moving beyond dispensational "rapture ready" interpretations, they demonstrate how this parable addresses the spiritual condition required for entrance into God's consummated kingdom. The discussion centers on the critical distinction between outward religious profession and genuine possession of the Holy Spirit's grace. With pastoral sensitivity and theological depth, the hosts examine the meaning of the oil, the significance of the midnight cry, and the urgency of both evangelism and personal examination. This episode challenges listeners to consider whether they possess not just the lamp of profession, but the oil of saving grace that alone sustains faith through the waiting period before Christ's return. Key Takeaways The oil represents saving grace, not perfect obedience - The critical distinction in the parable is not between those who stayed awake versus those who slept (all ten virgins fell asleep), but between those who possessed oil and those who didn't. The oil symbolizes the indwelling, regenerating, sanctifying presence of the Holy Spirit—the grace that comes through effectual calling and genuine conversion. This parable warns against mere outward profession - All ten virgins carried lamps and waited for the bridegroom, representing outward religious activity and profession. The difference lay in the interior spiritual reality—whether that profession was accompanied by the transforming grace of the Holy Spirit or remained empty formalism. The "midnight cry" represents both personal death and Christ's return - Historically, Reformed expositors understood the midnight cry as either the actual cry of Christ's angels at His return or the voice of God in individual death. Each person's death functions as their personal midnight that irrevocably fixes their eternal state. Readiness is not about sinless perfection but possession of grace - The parable is not teaching a fearful "rapture ready" theology where Christians must be perfectly sinless when Christ returns. Rather, it teaches that readiness consists in possessing saving grace through faith in Christ, which sustains believers even when they "sleep" (fall into sin or spiritual drowsiness). There is urgency in the gospel call - The parable emphasizes that the opportunity for salvation has a deadline—"you know neither the day nor the hour." This creates urgency both for unbelievers to trust Christ and for believers to share the gospel, since no one knows when their personal "midnight" will arrive. Calvin's insight: you "buy" oil by receiving it freely through faith - Though the parable speaks of "buying" oil, Calvin notes this doesn't imply paying a price. Just as Isaiah invites people to buy wine and milk without money, we obtain the oil of grace not through merit or payment, but by receiving through faith what Christ freely offers. Key Concepts The Oil as Symbol of the Holy Spirit's Grace The oil in this parable has been consistently interpreted throughout church history as representing the grace of the Holy Spirit—specifically the indwelling, regenerating, and sanctifying presence that comes through genuine conversion. This interpretation aligns with Old Testament symbolism where anointing oil signified the Spirit's presence (as in "not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit"). The crucial distinction Jesus makes is not about external religious activity (both groups had lamps and waited), but about internal spiritual reality. Just as a lamp cannot burn without oil, religious profession without the Spirit's grace has no sustaining power. This oil cannot be shared or borrowed; it must be personally possessed. The parable thus exposes the deadly danger of assuming that outward Christian activities—church attendance, biblical knowledge, moral behavior—constitute genuine Christianity when the transforming work of the Spirit is absent. All the Virgins Slept: Grace Overcomes Human Weakness One of the most important details often overlooked is that both the wise and foolish virgins fell asleep while waiting for the bridegroom. This demolishes any interpretation suggesting the parable is about maintaining perfect spiritual vigilance or sinless living. The wise virgins' readiness was not based on their superior wakefulness or moral stamina—they fell asleep just like the foolish ones. Their preparedness came from having secured the oil beforehand. This has profound theological implications: our salvation and readiness for Christ's return does not depend on our ability to maintain perfect spiritual alertness or sinless perfection. Even when believers "sleep"—when they fall into sin, experience spiritual dullness, or fail in vigilance—they remain prepared because they possess the oil of the Spirit's grace. The parable thus provides comfort alongside its warning: those who have truly received Christ need not live in constant fear that a moment of weakness will disqualify them when He returns. The Midnight Cry and Personal Eschatology The midnight cry in verse 6 functions on multiple levels theologically. Universally, it points to Christ's unexpected second coming at the end of history. But Reformed interpreters have also recognized its application to individual eschatology—each person's death serves as their personal "midnight cry" that ends all opportunity for preparation. This dual meaning creates urgency both for evangelism and self-examination. The parable warns that whether Christ returns globally or death comes individually, that moment will arrive unexpectedly ("at midnight," the hour of deepest sleep) and irrevocably fix one's eternal state. Once the door is shut, no amount of pleading ("Lord, Lord, open to us") can change one's condition. This underscores a biblical truth often denied in contemporary theology: there is no post-mortem opportunity for salvation, no remedial path after death. The time for obtaining oil is now, in this life, before the cry sounds. Memorable Quotes Every man's death to him is the coming of Christ. That's when our state is irrevocably fixed. And so there's an urgency here—an urgency of evangelism and self-examination because the midnight cry may come at any moment. The difference between the wise and the foolish virgins is not that one of them stays awake and one of them falls asleep. The difference between the wise and the foolish is that the ones that are wise are prepared for when the bridegroom comes, even though they fell asleep. The only way to be prepared for the end is to turn to Jesus. It's not about whether or not you've turned to Jesus and have become perfectly sinless. None of us are like that. It's about trusting Jesus. Full Episode Transcript Welcome to episode 494 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  [00:01:10] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.  [00:01:15] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother. Looks like you and I need to get a midnight oil check. That's if you know, you know, that's what's coming up on this episode, and we're headed to Matthew 25 to do that oil check. We're still firmly in all of these beautiful parables that Jesus tells us, and this one goes by various names. You might know it as the parable of the 10 virgins, or if you're Petra. That classic Christian rock group who produced a song called Midnight Oil, which is absolutely a banger that that should be like the the theme song of this episode. If you haven't heard that song, go check out Midnight Oil by Petra and then come back and listen to us. Like, I wish we had the rights to that. We could just drop it in right here. But we're not that cool and we're not gonna edit that. So I'm gonna leave it up to you to craft your own version of this podcast with that great backing track. Have you heard that song?  [00:02:09] Tony Arsenal: I actually haven't. I, I came, uh, came into Christianity sort of at the tail end of Petra's Big Influence. So I know, I knew who Petra is. I've listened to a few of their songs, but they weren't mainstream by any sort, sort of, uh, stretch of the imagination when I was listening to Christian music. So  [00:02:28] Jesse Schwamb: this one's so good. It's so good. And it's right on point for our conversation today. So we're gonna get into all that stuff. The oil check, the midnight nature of it, the 10 virgins. What does it all mean? Of course, Tony and me, we have for you what I believe to be the definitive exegetical and hermeneutical reflection on the parable. So that's what you've come to expect from us and we're happy to deliver, but before we deliver on that, we got all the things we have to deliver to you, and that is affirming with or denying against something that's that point of course in the podcast or our conversation where we choose something they firm with that we think is. Undervalued, something we might recommend or conversely to deny against something that maybe is a little bit too overvalued or just not that great. So Tony, as is our customer, I say to you, sir, what are you doing? Are you affirming with something or are you denying against something?  [00:03:16] Denial Memory Blank [00:03:16] Tony Arsenal: I'm denying something. This is like denial. Ception is what's going on here. So, uh, first of all, thank you, Jesse for, uh, pitch hitting a solo episode at like, literally the last minute, last week. Um, I think we normally record at seven 30 on the Lord's Day, and I think I texted Jesse like 6 45 and was like, I just don't have it in the tank today. Can you do something? And he just hopped behind the mic. So that's a bonus affirmation there. But, uh, Jesse and I were, we're having a little bit of a pregame, uh, today, very much, you know, like five minutes of how you doing and are you ready to go? And, uh, I realized I, I had a really great affirmation last week, all ready to rock. I remember being super excited about it. I remember, uh, when I decided, or when we decided you were gonna do a solo episode thinking, I gotta make sure I remember this for next week. Right? And it has totally left my brain. It's gone. And, uh, it's, it's the worst feeling in the world when that happens. And I remember reading at some point, like, there's a biochemical reason why this happens and why it feels so weird. Like, it, it feels like you should be able to just dive into your mind and like search around enough and find it. And that's just not actually how your, how like your memory works. It's not, um. I think we think of memory as though it's like a big filing cabinet and you can just, like, you can just flip through the CAD catalog like long enough and find it. That's not how it works. Um, it's kind of like more organic network kind of stuff. But yeah, the, the, it's gone. It's just gone and I hate that feeling and it's gone. And that's what I'm denying is that feeling and losing your mind and feeling like you don't remember anything.  [00:04:56] Jesse Schwamb: I'm totally with you because incidentally, as we talked, we discovered we both had that experience because I had something too. And it's not just that, well, you know, we try to set aside or do a little prep on the affirmations and denials because you know, we come across something great in life, or again, the opposite. And you think, I gotta remember this because I wanna talk about this with Tony. And the worst part of that is like twofold. One, it never is great to forget something that you had or you knew you knew at one time, but it's all the less satisfying when it was something that you're super excited about and you're like, this is gonna be great. And it's that thing that you've completely forgotten that's like double the worst. So I'm, I'm totally with you in this denial. [00:05:35] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, it's, it's a really frustrating, terrible feeling. And there's not much you can do about it. And the, the secondary denial to that is it always comes back to you in the worst possible part of whatever conversation you're having. It's like you hem and hover it and you think about it and you, and I'm doing it right now. You, you sit here and you, you continue to try to talk thingy. It's gonna come, it's gonna come. Yes. It's gonna get here.  [00:05:59] Jesse Schwamb: Yep.  [00:06:00] Tony Arsenal: And then just when you finally have resigned yourself and, and the conversation moves on, that's when it comes back around. So I don't know if that's gonna happen or not, Jesse. If it does, I will try my best to ignore it, but I probably won't be able to. So No, I think you probably should get moving. So whatever it was the amazing affirmation, I don't remember. It can come back to us.  [00:06:16] Jesse Schwamb: It can come back. Yeah. I'm hoping that it does. And when it does, you guys just tell us you got, just let it, let it rip. Like even if we're like right in the middle of some deep, heavy, robust, thick theology, I just wanna be like. I, I can't even imagine what your affirmation was. It must have been like something pretty, pretty good.  [00:06:33] Tony Arsenal: I don't know. I don't know. I, I'm sure it was something interesting. I don't even, I'm  [00:06:37] Jesse Schwamb: trying to draw it out of you now.  [00:06:38] Tony Arsenal: Course. I can't even like, think of the ballpark of what part of like, what, what the category even was. It's just totally, it's totally gone. Like it never happened. Yep. It's, it's totally, totally gone. So I keep on saying, and you would think with all of my talk of like note taking apps and how important it's to keep a journal and all the stuff we've talked about that I would finally get around to like just jotting down in Apple Notes what my affirmations are and I just never do it. So. Yeah,  [00:07:05] Jesse Schwamb: I have every intention, but then I think, well, this is the record of them and I'll have it available to me when it comes time. The talk that's, and sometimes it just goes away. Has it happened yet? I'm still trying to draw it out of you by talking.  [00:07:15] Tony Arsenal: No, I'm just gonna give up. It's just gone. It's gone. That's just gone.  [00:07:19] Jesse Schwamb: That's, that's fair enough. Maybe. What do you  [00:07:21] Tony Arsenal: got for us, Jesse?  [00:07:22] Prayer and Anointing [00:07:22] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I was gonna say, maybe I can just help push it along, as it were by my own. So I'm also affirming with something, lemme just read a couple verses from James chapter five. Is anyone Among You Sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and there to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will save the one who's sick and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, they'll be forgiven him. I had really just the profound opportunity and privilege today to participate in this because. My wife at the end of this week, uh, which will be a week past when this is, this airs, is about to go undergo that serious surgery, which she spoke about in an episode, I don't know, maybe several weeks ago. And, uh, my pastor asked if it would, if he'd like us and the elders, um, to come and to pray over my wife. And they did so after our service today. And it was just a really incredible thing. Even I'm still processing it. I don't really know. Like the words to say with what I can bring forward is just like words of gratitude and gratefulness for this kind of living out of the scriptures. What I can say is that the way in which he brought this forward and the elders prayed was just so incredibly loving and genteel and spirit-filled. And I think which is a manifestation of, of God's love for us in this moment as we prepare for this great thing to give us peace, peace, and to increase our faith and to do so by just following what the scriptures say here. So my affirmation is maybe twofold. One, it's for this particular experience, it's certainly for pastors, for elders who make it their objective to care for their flock and to do so under the rubric and the instruction of the scriptures. So I'm grateful, and if you have those kind of pastors and elders in your life, I hope that you'll be grateful to them for them as well, and that you might express that gratefulness. So this was a really incredible and, and lovely thing, and, uh, fills us with a kind of hope and encouragement. And if anything else was a reminder of the feel, there's something different going to experience like this armed fully with the promises of God and asking that he would be glorified, that our testimonies would be strong, and that of course, that he would bring healing through it. So I'm ever so grateful and affirming what this passage and this passage put into practice.  [00:09:51] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And if you are listening to this, when, uh, when it comes out or shortly after, probably not even shortly after, probably for a couple weeks after or months after, um, uh, Jesse's wife Jen did talk about the surgery and the condition she's been suffering under. So, uh, she's part of the Reformed Brotherhood family. She is, uh, just as important to the show, uh, as Jesse and I are in terms of the support that our wives give us and, and the space that we need to do this. So please do pray for Jen. Um, she'll be recovering when you hear this, if it's anywhere near the time that this comes out. Uh, it's a fairly large surgery with a, a, a moderately long recovery time. So please, uh, please do pray for her, uh, and, and make sure that you're lifting her up. Um, we are trusting the Lord for good things, uh, for her. Yes. And uh, we're confident that he, his will will be done 'cause it always is. But yeah, definitely pray for her. [00:10:42] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Thank you for saying that, Tony. I appreciate that as her husband and. We are encouraged that we've said this before, but this is where our theology matters, isn't it? It's in the times where we come before the Lord in faith and in full trust, because one, there's nowhere else to go. He has the words of life for us. He is our life, but also because. In his son, this beautiful gift of salvation whereby his son is the suffering servant. So he's well acquainted with all of this kind of thing. And so stands with us in every conceivable way to be both so incredibly transcendent and above the nonsense and the noise of our world with full power and sovereignty over all things. And at the same time, to be fully eminent. To be literally with us in all the ways. In all the things. And again, well acquainted with our condition, including the grief and the suffering, the anxiety, the all of this, which we experience as part and parcel of what it means to be human, who is like our God in this way. And so we do sense his great and uncommon care for us, and it would be dishonest of me even in the midst of these difficult and challenging things to say that he doesn't care for us. He has good and he loves us, and he's making a way, even though that way be hired. So we're sensing even from, I think, following that time of prayer, that whether we receive the bread of affliction. Uh, or the, the water of of agony that we hear God's voice behind us saying, this is the way, walk in it, and he's with us. So I hope that's encouragement maybe to others who are also going through their own things and who isn't going through something, right?  [00:12:18] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:12:18] Jesse Schwamb: So we all have this great promise in the gospel that God is for us, and I love that James here gives us some practical instruction to that end. [00:12:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, for sure.  [00:12:31] Support the Show [00:12:31] Tony Arsenal: Well, before we move into our topic for the evening, uh, the internet tells me that I'm supposed to do this at this point in the show rather than at the very end like we usually do. Well, let's do it. Um, we are a listener supported episode, not like PBS, uh, not like other things. Uh, maybe kind of a little bit like PBS Yeah, a little bit. Anyway, uh, we have a, a pretty dedicated group of Patreon supporters who, uh, donate a little bit and sometimes some people, a lot, a bit of their discretionary income, uh, to help make the show go. And we've said before, like, we are not interested in providing special content or special gear or swag every once in a while. I think we did it once and we've, we've got plans to do it again sometime in the future. We'll send out a thank you gift to those who are subscribing through Patreon. Um, but we are committed to producing the show and making everything that we put online and everything that we make available, available to everybody. And really the only reason that we can do that, especially in today's economy, is uh, because there are people who support the show. And so we always want to make sure that we're saying we're thank you to those people. Yes. Um, they are a part of this show. I don't know if we are not gonna do like executive producer credits, but they're as close to that as you can get. Since we don't do that, um, we really wouldn't be able to do the show, at least not the way that it is without that supporting group of people. So if that's something that you hear and you no, I kind of think that maybe I wanna be a part of that. We would love for you to go to patreon.com/reform tears. There's no special swag, there's no early releases or anything like that. Um, but we would love if you would partner with us. Um, this is a lowercase m ministry, and if you've listened to the show for a long time, you know what I mean by that. Uh, we, we do consider this to be a calling, something that God has given us and we, we understand there's a responsibility with it, but we also know that we can't do it alone. So if you're interested after you've fulfilled all your personal finance obligations, your obligation to your local church and your immediate area, if there's a little bit left over that you're looking to spend somewhere on something that is valuable, uh, please do consider going to patreon.com/form Brotherhood. [00:14:39] Jesse Schwamb: And if you've been listening for a while and you've thought, you know what, I wonder who else is out there that's like me, that's listening to these guys on the internet. Guess what? You can actually meet some of those people. They have a little spot where they hang out. It's called Telegram. It's just a chat app, and we have our own little section of that app. If you just go to your favorite browser, whatever it is, you can choose and go to wherever you like, just go to t me slash Reform Brotherhood. And that link will take you into kind of a preview land where you can see the space where everybody's talking, and you can peruse some of the different channels, everything from uh, channels just for prayer, for a crusting, prayer to general conversation, talk about the episodes, talk about baptism, all kinds of things. It is, as we always say, one of the kindest, most charitable, most loving corners of the internet. Guaranteed. You can test us on that. So in fact, you should by going to t.me back slash reform Brotherhood, Tony, back to you. [00:15:36] Eschatology Shift [00:15:36] Tony Arsenal: Well, let's just slam it right into gear. We, we, we haven't figured out how to do transitions into or out of, uh, Patreon announcements, uh, or telegram announcements,  [00:15:46] Jesse Schwamb: right?  [00:15:46] Tony Arsenal: So this, I, maybe this is the awkward charm of the show, or maybe it's just the awkwardness of the show. It's just charm, Jesse,  [00:15:53] Jesse Schwamb: all charm. [00:15:53] Tony Arsenal: We need to talk about some things tonight. We need to talk about some oil. Yes. We need to talk about some lamps. Yes. We need talk about some bridegrooms.  [00:16:00] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:16:00] Tony Arsenal: It's the parable of the 10 virgins or the 10 lamps, or the parable of the oil flasks. Yes. There's lots of different things that it's called. Uh, it's what it isn't, it's not the parable of, uh, the 24 hour Jiffy Lube, which is what it made, what you made it sound like when you talked about the midnight oil check. Um,  [00:16:18] Jesse Schwamb: I  [00:16:18] Tony Arsenal: didn't even think about that. But yeah. This is, this is a good one. And I think we've, we've sort of. I've sort of observed that the parables do tend to clump around systematic theology themes, and they clump within the narrative of the gospel within Matthew itself around themes. So the last three parables that we talked about were all sort of like parables of judgment against the Pharisees and a, a lot of things like unconditional election and reparation were all baked into that pie. You know, we talked about with the parable of the lost sheep and the lost coins and the lost, um, the lost, uh, brother. We talked about how that has a lot to do with like election. It has to do with salvation and what the gospel looks like in terms of justification in the father's initiative. And we're moving into a section of Matthew, um, where Jesus is starting to teach on the last days. And so the parables in this section start to move toward ha to have more of an eschatological bent. Yes. We talked a little bit about some of the eschatology and the parables when we, we went through the, um, through the, the. Um, my brain just left me. It happened again, Jesse. The, the denial thing, uh, when we talked about the parable of the tears and the wind field and the, the, the different kinds of soils back on track, there was an eschatological element to that. But we are in like straight up eschatology Yeah. In these, these sections now. That's right. So we're coming to the end of Matthew, uh, our plan right now and who knows what the Lord has for us. But the plan right now is once we finish Matthew, to go back and visit some of the parables that are present in the other gospels. And there's not too many of 'em, but that are present in the other gospels that aren't necessarily, uh, present in Matthew. So, like you said, there's not a ton of 'em. Uh, we do want to hit all of 'em. And if there's, if there's time, and I say if there's time as though we have some sort of time constraints, um, if there's time we probably will talk a little bit about some of the I am statements and some of the things in John. 'cause John doesn't do parables quite the same way in quite the same fashion, but he does have sort of some of this. Allegorical figurative language baked into some of his, um, some of his writings or some of the accounts of Jesus that he, he, um, captures that are probably worth talking about in the seam light. So right now we're, we're coming up quick on the end of the parables of Matthew. Um, there's not very many left and then we'll, we'll keep moving on. Uh, that said. We are, it's almost unbelievable to say this. We're going to be coming up to the end of the parable series sometime in the next, I dunno, six to 10 months. Uh, if you've got ideas for what you think the next series should be, start thinking about those now. Bring 'em to the telegram chat. Let's start percolating those ideas up, right? And, uh, like a good coffee maker. And we'll, uh, we'll brew some goodness. How many more parables? How many more, uh, metaphors can I throw in there? Puns, can I throw in there? But yeah, Jesse, let's get started. This is a good one.  [00:19:08] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, that was a really, I think, fine introduction. I always enjoyed this parable because it has some really fun, dramatic elements, but I think I, I really haven't really appreciated all the eschatological underpinnings that you were just mentioning. And when you think about it as we're, I think we're gonna soon find here. That this is one of the most searching and solemn parables, actually, that Jesus uttered, and you start to get a sense for that as we've just kind of been hitting them, one after the other. As you said, this one belongs to the great olive discourse. It's delivered by Jesus to his disciples on the Mount of Olives just days before his crucifixion. It's in direct response to their questions about the destruction of Jerusalem and the sign of his condiment coming and the end of the age. So you're right. I think this carries like unmistakable eschatological weight because it's not merely this fable about preparedness in general, which sometimes is where we go. Yeah. But it's really more of like a precise theological warning about the spiritual condition required for entrance into the consummated kingdom of God at the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.  [00:20:11] Tony Arsenal: Yeah,  [00:20:11] Jesse Schwamb: I think that's the full setup.  [00:20:12] Read Matthew 25 [00:20:12] Jesse Schwamb: We, we've gotta go to the scriptures, right?  [00:20:15] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:20:16] Jesse Schwamb: Alright. It's time. You want me to read it? [00:20:17] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, yeah, go ahead.  [00:20:18] Jesse Schwamb: Okay. Here we go. Matthew 25, beginning in verse one, then the kingdom of heaven may be compared to 10 virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bride groom. Now, five of them were foolish and five were prudent for when the foolish took their lamps. They took no oil with them, but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps. Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep. But at midnight there was a shout. Behold the bridegroom come out to meet him. Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said to the prudent, give us some of your oil for our lamps are going out. But the prudent answered saying, no, there will not be enough for us and for you too. Go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves. And while they're going away to make the purchase, that bridegroom came and those who already went in with him to the wedding feast and the door was shut. And later the other versions came also saying, Lord, Lord, open for us. But he answered and said, truly, I say to you, I do not know you. Therefore, stay awake for you do not know the day nor the hour.  [00:21:27] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:21:29] Assurance Not Fear [00:21:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, this one's heavy. And I just wanna say, kind of coming into this, right, I think a lot of our audience, and I would, I would include myself in this, um, we, we came to sort of like an awareness of faith. And I, I don't say that in a sort of tongue in cheek fashion. What I mean, um. I'll, I'll just speak from my perspective, but I think it's probably one that resonates. I came to faith when I was a, you know, a relatively young teenager, 15 years old, and, um, when you first become a Christian, you're not aware of all the different theological debates or even all of the major implications of the Christian faith. And I think a lot of us and myself, uh, as, as sort of the example when we be started to become aware of the different conversations happening in different dynamics and some of the more, uh, maybe third or fourth tier doctrines that you learn when you're, um, sort of being catechized as a new Christian, uh, catechized in sort of an informal sense, eschatology is probably one of those ones that comes along fairly, fairly late in the game. And I recall, um, when I first became aware of the left behind books, right? And so I, I came to faith in a large Lutheran megachurch, uh, that wasn't really as Lutheran as you would think, cup being a large Lutheran megachurch. It was very dispensational. And I think there is a sense of dread and fear associated with rapture ready theology. And I don't, I don't think all dispensationalist that, um, believe in a, a literal rapture of the church either prior to or following or in the middle of the tribulation. I don't think all dispensationalist fall into this category. But there are definitely dispensationalist out there that would emphasize being rapture ready. And you know, you think of like the song, I wish We'd All Been Ready, you know, and, and this, this sort of existential fear that the Rapture's gonna come and I'm not gonna be ready and I'm gonna be left behind. Right. There's an, the entire book series is about people who thought that they were Christians who thought that they were justified and saved and then weren't. And, and I don't think the book gives all that much explanation other than sort of like a general sense of like, these are sort of nominal fake Christians that maybe some of them think they're saved and some of them don't. I know there were definitely characters in the book who really thought that they were followers of Jesus and then they didn't realize they weren't until they were not raptured with everyone else. The only reason I sort of launch into that progam is I think that the tendency in most circles because of the pervasive. Sort of all expansive influence of dispensationalism in the United States, and particularly sort of this like rapture ready, left behind theology that is a, a major thread within, um, American dispensationalism. There's a tendency to look at this almost exclusively in light of that sort of rapture ready fear that right the end is gonna come and I'm not gonna be ready and. I don't, I'm not a dispensationalist, I don't hold to a rapture in that sense. I don't think you do either. Jesse and I, I think there's an element of this that has that same flavor that we have to acknowledge, but I don't think we should read this in light of like, you think you're gonna be fine, but actually you're not. So you better get it together. I don't think that that's the point of the parable. Um, and I wanna say that upfront because it is easy to read a parable like this and to, to become extremely fearful to the point that it actually shakes whatever assurance you may have had. And I've said it before and, and I, I will say it again, it is not, I am not in the business of robbing the assurance away from Christians. The assurance of faith and the assurance of salvation is the rightful possession and inheritance of all those who are Christ. And so I have no, no desire to shake or rob you of your assurance. That's just not my jam. Um, so I wanted to get that out there. Like I don't think that this parable is here. To scare the daylights out of us and make us question whether or not we actually belong to the bridegroom. I actually think it's here for a different reason.  [00:25:39] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I agree.  [00:25:40] Watch and Be Ready [00:25:40] Jesse Schwamb: I, I think this may have more in common with like the tears in the wheat parable that we've spoken about before versus trying to promulgate a particular understanding of eschatology. There's no doubt that this is calibrated to the period preceding the perusia. At the same time, the parable is a reminder that describes like the visible professing church on earth as it moves toward that consummation. So this is why I think it is important for us to talk about, well, what do we mean by these 10 virgins? What do we mean about the lamps themselves? What is this saying generally about God's church? And again, him addressing the question of what does it mean for that church to be consummated in his kingdom?  [00:26:18] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I, I'm, I'm trying to find the specific passage, but um. We also should not miss the verbal affinity here. Uh, at the end of the parable, when it says truly, I say to you, I do not know you. We should really read this in light of, um, the, um, the statements. You know, I was hungry and you didn't feed me. I was, you know, and you say, Lord, we did these things. He said, away from me. I never knew you. We really should read this parable. I think in light of that passage and that phrasing, I think that's, that's actually the punchline of this  [00:26:54] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. [00:26:55] Tony Arsenal: Punchline. That's, that's the point. Parable is that last phrase, and then the, the extra parable, the outside of the parable, um, payoff or sort of like explanation that Christ gives is watch. Therefore, for you neither know the day nor the hour. The point is not, um, you may think you're a Christian. You may think you're, you're on top of things, but you actually, you might be totally wrong. And so you better get your stuff together. The point is what, what happens? Or the point is the same thing as I think it's the author of Hebrew is like, today is the day of salvation, right? Like, do not wait to turn to Christ. Do not wait. That's right to trust in Jesus. Do not wait to enter the kingdom of heaven until the last minute. Do not wait because you don't actually know when the end is coming. And I, I read this when I, when it's watch, therefore for, you know, neither the day nor the hour. I read this less in light of, um. Like universal eschatology, uh, every single person that, that Jesus was speaking to in this original audience that he actually delivered this parable to, did not see that, like, did not see the last days. Right. Whatever the last days looks like. And I mean, like, yes, the last days is from the resurrection to the end of the age. So some of them saw those last days. But what I mean is none of these people saw the return of Christ, like the second return of Christ and that the last judgment. So he would, it would be sort of meaningless to be delivering this parable to those people. With only whatever the last things are with only the rapture in mind with only Right, exactly. The great judgment. None of that would make any sense. So I read this more in light of you never know when your day and hour is coming. Not, not necessarily like the day, like the day of the Lord, although that's true. Yes. There will be a generation on earth who the last day, the final judgment is also their last day in terms of their ordinary human life. But I think this is more of a general call to all of us, and especially to those, um, out there who are in the orbits of the church who are exposed to the gospel, um, and have not yet trusted Christ. [00:29:09] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:29:09] Tony Arsenal: Um, there is a call to turn to Jesus and to, uh, to, to come into the kingdom of heaven, to be prepared by coming into the kingdom of heaven here. That's, that's the main point of the peril that we have to land on.  [00:29:21] Bridegroom And Virgins [00:29:21] Jesse Schwamb: I agree with you, and I think all of the imagery here points in that direction. So even starting with this image of these 10 virgins, which of course you've been listening to us talk for long enough, or you've read through the Old Testament, you're gonna quickly, and I think cogently see that this is the Old Testament imagery of Israel as the bride or the covenant community. It's also of course, like the Greco Roman custom in which the bridesmaids attended the bride and accompanied the wedding procession when the bride groom arrived to claim his bride. So to your point, what I think is really interesting about this is that we're basically saying that this parable is not speaking of like strangers or enemies, but those who have made a profession of faith. And so even this like idea of the bridegroom who, who's without a question? Christ here, that's a self-identification that's rooted in like John chapter three, where even John the Baptist calls himself merely the friend of the bridegroom and a revelation where you are going already, where the marriage supper of the lamb consummate, consummate redemptive history. [00:30:19] Lamps And Oil Meaning [00:30:19] Jesse Schwamb: So once we get through the idea of we have those whom Jesus is speaking about, and even those who he's speaking to as those who have made some kind of profession, religious or otherwise, to me, where this hinges is in this idea of the lamps or these torches or or burning lamps, which I take to be like this outward profession. And so the question is you have all of them coming with these lamps. Lambs represent this external common to true or false professors alike. But I think to what you are driving at, it's whether within that profession there is a true and actual reliance on Christ himself for righteousness.  [00:30:57] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, oil, I think the oil is really key here too, right? Oil in the, uh, in the scriptures, particularly in the Old Testament. Um, but also in some places in the New Testament, oil is associated with the Holy Spirit.  [00:31:11] Jesse Schwamb: Yes,  [00:31:11] Tony Arsenal: exactly right. So if, if we wanna sort of take the symbolism here, take, take the, the situation sort of as a mixture of, of different kinds of symbols. We have these folks that have all of the outward things necessary to be able to light the lamps. They have the lamps, the wicks are there. Um, they're, they're sort of ready to go. They're, they're ready and waiting for a time. Uh, but what they don't have is they don't have oil, they don't have the Holy Spirit. So yes, we, we need in some senses about false professors, but I do think it's broader than that.  [00:31:43] Salvation Has A Deadline [00:31:43] Tony Arsenal: I think this is, um, again, is a generalized parable about. The, the fact that the hour of salvation, the day of salvation, the opportunity to turn to God, the opportunity to come into God's kingdom is not an indefinite opportunity. It's not going to be out there as a possibility forever. There is a day and an hour and a minute for every single person where that opportunity is no longer available. And of course we're the reformed brotherhood, not the Armenian Brotherhood, right? We're the reformed brotherhood. So yes, God has ordained who will come and who will not. He's ordained the hour and the minute of those who will, and he's ordained that some will never come. But that all operates on God's God's level in God's knowledge. And that's not something we have access to know down here, right? Deuteronomy 29, 29, the sacred things belong to the Lord, but the things that are revealed belong to us and our children forever. And one of the things that's revealed is that God calls us to salvation. He calls us to repent and trust in Jesus. And here in this passage, he is cutting us to do that, to not delay doing that.  [00:32:53] Personal Evangelism Story [00:32:53] Tony Arsenal: I think there are a lot of people, um. I can actually think of a couple really specific examples in when I was in high school. Um, I was, I, I don't do as much personal evangelism as I I did when I was, uh, when I was in high school and younger. I, I don't know for sure what the reason is. Some of it's probably my own cowardice, but I think probably just that's normal, that as you grow and you kind of settle into different kinds of relationships, you have a different context. But I remember a, a friend of mine named Dave, I'm not gonna say his last name, I remember his last name, but I'm not gonna say it, but a friend of mine named David, um, who. All of us were coming to faith, like all, all of our friend group were coming to Faith. There was one of my friends, James was sort of like the first guy who, he was raised in a Christian home and he sort of came to faith in a very real faith, real way. And he sort of brought all of us along with him and sort of one by one we, we sort of like, it was like Domino's falling. And we all came to a genuine, true saving faith kind of all right in a row. And then there was Dave and Dave just didn't like he, he with us. He did all the things we were doing. And I remember having a conversation with him where I was like, what are you waiting for? Like, what's, what's the hold up here? And I didn't have any, again, I didn't have any framework for like what apologetics were, I wasn't trying to make an argument or any sort of like, um, any sort of like persuasion. It was just a real raw like we are all loving this. We're all, we're all so joyful and happy. The lives are changing and we. This is real, Dave, what, what are you waiting for? He never had a real answer. He, he didn't ever make an argument against the faith. He was very clear that he believed that God was real. He believed that God existed, that the sort of the facts of the gospel were true. Like he, he, um, to sort of put like theological language on it, um, he had, he had a ticia and a census, right? Right. He, he acknowledged he knew the true facts of the gospel and he acknowledged the reality that, that those facts were true. He just never actually took the step to trust in Jesus. And I don't know what happened to Dave. Uh, there's another friend of mine named Theo that very similar kind of situation. I don't know what happened to Dave and Theo. I have no idea whether they eventually came to faith or not, but, but it was like, you guys never know when the day in the hours. That's the kind of person that I think this is pointing to.  [00:35:15] Against Rapture Ready Fear [00:35:15] Tony Arsenal: Not necessarily the person within the church, um, who has made some sort of credible profession of faith, but thinks, but like, because like they haven't stopped swearing yet, or because they still have lustful thoughts once in a while. Like I think that's the rapture ready theology is like. You better not hope that like that's the day that a pretty girl walks by and you have a lutful thought. 'cause if Jesus comes back right after that, you're really in trouble. Like those are, those are actually, um, again, this is, this is a caricature of dispensationalism, but it's a caricature that I experienced. It's, it was people who were being characters of themselves. Right? This idea that, look, you better, you better not sin ever. You better not be asleep. And being asleep means sinning. You better not ever sin. Because if you happen to sin right before the rapture, then Jesus is gonna leave you behind. Right? You're not gonna fly up in the clouds if you're not perfectly rapture ready. And like, again, not all dispensationalist are like that. I actually think most dispensationalist these days would probably not fit into that category. Right? But when I was coming to faith in the late nineties and early two thousands, that was the real theology being presented. I don't think that's what this is. This is about a life orientation of preparedness. This is about an entire life. Yes. That is prepared for Christ's second coming or for the hour of our death. And that the only way to be prepared for that is to be happy in Christ, is to be blessed, blessed assurance, like to have your blessed assurance because Jesus is mine. Oh, what a, you know, oh, what a happy delight like that is. The only way to be ready for death, to be prepared for the end is to turn to Jesus. It's not about whether or not you've turned to Jesus and have become perfectly sinless. None of us are like that, right? It's not about, I just got done writing this series of articles on John Piper's affectional theology, affectional Justification, like it's not about perfectly treasuring Christ. There are gonna be times where your emotions do not sync up with what you actually believe. It's not about being perfectly obedient or wanting to be perfectly obedient. It's about trusting Jesus. And there's only one day an hour that that opportunity closes, and you never know when that is, when that day an hour is gonna be. [00:37:26] Wise Versus Foolish [00:37:26] Jesse Schwamb: We know that to be true in this particular parable because of what's written for us in verse two, how Jesus himself bifurcates and labels these two groups. He says five of them were foolish and five were wise. So Christ himself introduces the critical distinction, not of course, with reference to whatever the external practice is, because both of these groups are carrying lamps, both weight, both know the bridegroom is coming, but with an interior character judgment one is literally foolish, which is the same contrast that Christ employs actually in the parable of the two builders at the conclusion of the Sermon on the Mount, where the wise man hears and does, while the foolish man hears, but does not translate hearing into obedient transformation. So I'm with you on this. The terms carry, I think, significant Old Testament fruit because in the all the wisdom literature, wisdom is synonymous with the fear of the Lord, that true knowledge of God, right? And that practical orientation, I think as you were saying, of one's entire life toward God. The fool is not like an intellectual simpleton, but it's a world spiritual category. It's one who lives as though God does not exist or God does not matter, or refuses in the light of incontrovertible evidence to come before God and to submit to him In this way. They are foolish or they are wise. And so again, I like what you're saying. It's not as if like they've just exhibited some kind of quick departure or they've fallen into temptation or sinfulness, but instead, rather, there's something way larger at stake here with respect to a spiritual category. And I think that's really what Jesus is after, as he's bringing these two groups apart from each other, explaining that essentially that they access the same things. They heard the same stuff, they had the same on the outward, at least the same priorities, but the true internal character, the interior character of who they were, was not compatible. These are not the the same kind of person.  [00:39:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:39:21] All Virgins Fall Asleep [00:39:21] Tony Arsenal: And this is actually something, um, that I hadn't picked up on before. Right. I think we can get into these ruts when we're reading and understanding, uh, the scripture, especially really familiar passages like this. Um, probably like at some point in the past, someone has taught it to me in this way. I heard a sermon or I heard it at a youth group in a particular way, and I just never really went back. The, the wise virgins also fall asleep.  [00:39:46] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.  [00:39:46] Tony Arsenal: Like, like that, that's amazing to me, like Right. I've always heard this passage as though like, falling asleep is the equivalent of spiritual death.  [00:39:54] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. [00:39:55] Tony Arsenal: But the reality is, in this passage, the difference between the wise and the foolish virgins is not that they, one of them stays awake and one of them falls asleep. One, the, the, the difference between the wise and the foolish is that the ones that are wise are prepared for when the bride root clump comes, even though they fell asleep and, and actually, uh, they're, they're shown to be even more wise because they all fell asleep. Yes. Right. If they hadn't fallen asleep, then the foolish ones probably would've had time to go get more. But the, the wise virgins in this, uh. And not only were they wise in terms of like they had the stuff they needed, they were ready to go, but so wise that in fact their wisdom overcame sort of this happenstance that they were in a state of, of preparedness being asleep when the comes is a state of Unpreparedness, but they have able to compensate for the ready in every other area. And I think this also kind of like mitigates away away from the idea of like the, um. The, the emphasis of the parable here, the readiness of the par of the virgins is not based on the wakefulness of the virgins, right? Yes. The virgins are ready because they have the supplies they need. Right. They're not Exactly, they're not exactly, they're not un 'cause they fell asleep. They're ready because they've, they've prepared by purchasing the supplies they need, by having the supplies they need when the breadroom comes. That's true. Whether they fall asleep or not. So I think like this whole parable needs to sort of like be reoriented in reference to the way a lot of us have, A lot of us have been taught and understood this parable. I was always taught that the, the foolish virgins were foolish because they fell asleep. Yeah, that's probably partially true in that it's foolish to fall asleep when you're waiting for something, but that can't be the only thing that makes them foolish. 'cause it doesn't make the other virgins foolish. [00:41:51] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, exactly.  [00:41:52] Oil As Saving Grace [00:41:52] Jesse Schwamb: And that's why it's so interesting that Jesus basically doubles down or elaborates in verses three and four by saying for when the foolish took their lamps. They took no oil with them. Yeah, but the wises took flasks of oil with their lambs. I think it's actually, as you're, I think leading us into like the theological height of this whole thing, the foolish virgins took their lambs, but no oil. The wise took lambs and extra oil in vessels. And of course the lambs cannot burn without oil in the same way. I think what we're led to believe here is profession without grace has no sustaining power. So I know like throughout church history, this idea of the oil has been interpreted in various ways, in various forms. I think there's a lot of unification though on the point that the oil is more or less like a representation of the grace of the Holy Spirit. That like specific indwelling regenerating, sanctifying presence of the spirit imparted in effectual calling and genuine conversion. And that's why I think this has a lot in common with both like the tears and the wheat parable. But also what you've been saying about the time that is appointed onto a man to die, either for Christ to return or just for you and I to die. And so this understanding, I think is consistent with the Old Testament symbolic use of, like you said before, anointing oil is a sign of the spirit's presence. Not by might nor by power, but by my spirit. And so I'm seeing here like this oil is, I mean, is it going too far to say almost like a saving grace? It's, it's not common grace, it's not the gifts of the spirit, which the reprobate may possess, but I think we're, we're seeing here like that special sanctifying preserving grace, which is inseparable from true election and calling. [00:43:29] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, I mean, I think that's spot on. While you were talking, I was actually just looking up, uh, what Calvin has to say on this. I, I think it's funny because I constantly am saying things that I feel like I'm discovering for myself in real time. But if I actually just took the, a little bit of time to read some of our great sources a little more carefully, I would run into them. This is what he says. He says on, uh, verse five, he says, some interpret this slumbering in a bad sense as if believers along with others abandon themselves sloth. And they were, they were asleep amidst the vanities of the world. This is all together inconsistent with the intention of Christ as structure of the parable. [00:44:05] Slow Down And Read [00:44:05] Tony Arsenal: Like I think it's clear now here as we're working through this and this, and this is the main benefit, um, of taking time to just walk through the parables, any, any text of scripture, but the parables is what we're looking at. Taking time to just actually slow down and read them. I didn't intend to get to like a whole discussion about Bible reading plans, but the typical, I'm gonna read the Bible through, uh, the entire Bible in a year that typically has you reading three to five chapters a day is the average. That's probably too much if you want to be reading for understanding. And there is, there's definitely value. I've, I've commented in the past, there's huge value in reading large tracks of scripture all at the same time. Like if you wanna sit down over 10 chapters of Scripture day and you've got the time and the energy and the discipline to do it, then more power to you. But I think it's not realistic to think you're gonna sit down and read 10 chapters of scripture and have good comprehension and retention of the 10 chapters that you read. This is a really good example of that. If you sit down and you read three chapters, you're gonna be reading this, you're gonna be reading, uh, another parable. The parable of the talents you are gonna be reading. You know, the all of it discourse all at the same time, all in one sitting. Um, it's not until just now when I slowed down to really look at these passages, verse by verse individually and take an hour to discuss 13 verses with my brother-in-law in front of a microphone, right? Then I realized all of the virgins fall asleep. Like that's the kind of stuff that you really only, um, you only overcome. The assumed teaching that you heard when you were in high school, 15, you know, 15, 20 years ago at a summer camp. You really only overcome that when you slow down enough to read things and actually comprehend them. So that's not much of a commentary on the passage, but it is something that I'm learning as we do these parable studies. Just slow down, slow down and read them, read them multiple times, read it over and over again. Um, it is totally fine. The, this is the last, uh, Bible reading soapbox thing I'll say tonight. Um, I think like, because. Of the influence of like expository preaching and like wanting to read things in, in context, and all of those things are good. I think there is this tendency to think that if you sit down and just read a very short portion of scripture, that you're kind of automatically taking that out of context. I don't think that's the case. Like it's totally fine to sit down in the morning and go, you know what? I've got, I've got 10 minutes, I've got five minutes. I've got two minutes before the kids are up. I've got two minutes before the bus stop, you know, before the bus gets here. I'm standing at the bus stop. I've got 30 seconds before the coffee's done. It's totally fine to open your Bible app. And read two or three verses of scripture, that's a totally fine thing to do. It's totally fine because you've got 10 minutes before the kids got up. Oh, and by the way, you've gotta unload the dishwasher before they do. Totally fine to sit down and go, I've got time to read 13 verses of scripture today. So that's what I'm gonna get done. Um, and, and then just think about those things like meditate on those scriptures all day. I just think there's a lot of values to that and that's maybe that's my takeaway from this episode. I know like that's not a takeaway directly related to this passage. That's good. But I think we can oftentimes. Have and understand that isn't right because we've been taught it and we don't ever have the time or space in our life to like realize that what we were taught is maybe exactly right. This is like something so obvious on the surface of the text. It didn't even take any real thought. It just took slowing down and actually reading the words  [00:47:45] Jesse Schwamb: right. It's also a good reminder, like we said from the beginning, that our goal here shouldn't be to torture every detail, to like press it for some kind of allegorical significance.  [00:47:55] Tony Arsenal: Yes.  [00:47:55] Jesse Schwamb: But to take it on the face and to understand in context what's being said. And by context I just mean the context of the story. Of the accounts of the drama that's unfolding. And it is pretty remarkable that all 10 virgins sleep, that maybe even as you start with the details might not be your impression that that was gonna be, was gonna be the difference here, but both the wises and the foolish alike fall asleep. So to me, the parable is not condemning sleep per se, but I think it's the absence of oil which the sleep merely reveals, right? That's the critical detail here. And so Jesus delivers that to us and that's why it's, I think, important to think about these, these variables about what the oil represents and the context in which they're tested with their preparedness. But it's not because like they had it almost times you get the impression, it's like what we're saying here is the wise had more stamina, that they were the ones that were just willing to tough it out, and they knew the bridegroom was coming. And so as a result of that, they decided that they were going to ensure that they stayed awake, even if they had the drink, a couple of extra cups of coffee, just to make sure that was the case. But really their sleepiness, which they both have to endure, is the very context in which proves that they do are not prepared by having sufficient oil, not that they're unprepared by having sufficient energy or stamina.  [00:49:18] Prepared Despite Fatigue [00:49:18] Jesse Schwamb: Well, with all.  [00:49:21] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, that's a good takeaway too, is, is we all, um, we all will succumb to temptation in this life,  [00:49:32] Jesse Schwamb: right? [00:49:33] Tony Arsenal: Right. Every single one of us. And even if we think of sleeping in this negative sense, which I think we probably need to move away from it, even if we do, I think the point that you're making is really good, for instance, between the foolish and the wises is not their ability to stay awake. So I do think that, I do think there's a slightly negative connotation to drowsy and slept here. Like I think that, I think it's intended to show some level of fatigue. Fatigue, maybe not like a moral right, maybe not a moral, uh, negativity, but there's a fatigue. There's something that overcomes both wise and foolish virgins in this parable. Fatigue and drowsiness overcomes them and they sleep. And it's because the bridegroom was delayed, right? We wanna talk about eschatology, right? This is probably also more a commentary on the church as a whole. The church becomes drowsy and sleeps right, and then there's the foolish and the wise. The foolish are the ones who are not prepared even though they are drowsy and sleep. And then there's the wise who are foolish, or the wises who are prepared and are drowsy and sleep. But E, either way, if we think of drowsy and sleep, even in moral negative terms, right? All of us will succumb to temptation. All of us will succumb to sin in this life. I would even go so far as to say all of us sin in every moment of our life in that we never love God. Truly. Yes. With our full hearts and souls. You got that right soul the way that we're, we're commanded to. Right. Right. So all of us become drowsy and sleep. The difference is not in those who pull themselves up by their bootstraps and tape their eyelids open so that they don't fall asleep. Right. I don't, I don't know if you ever like had trouble staying awake in school, but I used to, like I used to sit at my desk with my pencil under my chin. Oh my Lord. So if I started to fall asleep, it would like jab me and I would wake up so I could stay awake in school. Oh. It's not about like gimmicks to stay awake.  [00:51:20] Jesse Schwamb: Right, right.  [00:51:21] Tony Arsenal: It's about the fact that those of us who have trusted Christ. Have received the oil. Yes. So even when we sleep, yes. Even when we are drowsy, even when we are overcome by the fatigue that prevents us from, uh, from resisting sin. Right. Even when that happens, we still have the oil. We still have the grace of the Holy Spirit. We still have the empowering presence and the, the, the justifying reality of Christ's death For us, in my mind as I read this parable, that really is what it is, right? Get the oil, go get the stinking oil now, because you never know when the day or hour is coming. Mm-hmm. Whether that's the day or the hour that you fall asleep and you're not prepared, or whether that's the day or the hour that the bridegroom was, even if you're awake. That's the other element of this. Even if the virgins had stayed awake, they didn't have the oil.  [00:52:11] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:52:12] Tony Arsenal: So it it's not as though, it's not as though had they stayed awake, they would've had time to go get the oil and come back. They, they wake up right away. Like there's nothing in the parable that's like, oh, it took 'em a little while to get up. So that's why they didn't have time to get the oil. They, they didn't have time to get the oil. 'cause there wasn't time to get the oil  [00:52:31] Jesse Schwamb: right.  [00:52:32] Tony Arsenal: So the only way you're going to be properly prepared when the bridegroom comes is if you already have the oil and you're already ready to go. Regardless of whether you fall asleep or not.  [00:52:42] Gospel Call Get Oil [00:52:42] Tony Arsenal: So I, I think, I think we have to kind of close this with like a gospel, a gospel call here. Like we don't do this very often on the show, and I think the vast majority of our show are professed, regenerate Christians. I don't, I don't know anyone who listens to the show that is outwardly not a Christian, but I think this is a time for us to say, listen, if you are hearing the sound of my voice, be diligent to make your calling an election. Sure. And that both takes the form of what Peter talks about, where he talks about growing in graces and walking in, walking in the qualities of holiness and righteousness that our, our, our in Christ. But it also takes the form of just trusting in Jesus.  [00:53:20] Jesse Schwamb: Right?  [00:53:21] Tony Arsenal: Right. If you are a person who is not confident that you have trusted in Jesus. Then you, you need to do that. You need to go and do that. And, and if you don't know what that means, look, I'm just some dude on the internet. By the time you hear this, I'm already, I'm already like seven and a half days into the future from when you hear this, like, I'm already gone. The me that's talking to you doesn't even exist anymore. But the pastor down the road, or your friend who's a Christian who shared this show with you, that person exists right now in your life, right? So go talk to them, find out what the gospel is, and you, you take care of getting that oil and you don't delay,  [00:53:57] Jesse Schwamb: right? Oh, you're right.  [00:53:58] Midnight Cry Urgency [00:53:58] Jesse Schwamb: All of that sets up what we see in verse six, this idea of the midnight Cry, which is of course where Petro draws the title for its own song. But this idea that midnight is that darkest hour, it's the hour of deepest sleep and greatest surprise, it really does capture, at least in this parable, the unexpectedness of like that second coming. It's a theme that's central, I think, to a lot of Matthew and this cry is it's sudden, it's arresting, it wakes all of the virgins. None of them remained asleep after this time. And I think you summarized really well how even like historically reformed expositions understood that midnight cry. It could be. And I say equally as opportunistic with the idea that it's the actual cry of Christ's angels as a return or as I think what you're pressing us with right now, which is important, is it's the voice of God and death. Since for everybody, each individual death really functions as the personal midnight that ends the time of preparation. And so every man's death to him is the coming of Christ. That's when our state is irrevocably fixed. And so I think it's important for us to understand there's an urgency here. This is an urgency of evangelism and self-examination because the midnight cry may come at any moment. It could come in youth, the middle age and old age, and health and sickness and wellness. The question is not when it will come, but whether when it does, you will be found with oil in your vessel. And so you're right. Maybe that's the best place for us to end it is to to stop and say, you ought to consider that. We all ought to consider that. That is the message that's put before us. That's why this thing is so penetrating and solemn, even though it seems a kind of, just a dramatic account of, well, don't get caught being sleepy. That's not the point. It's literally. The, the bridegroom's own delay that sets up all of this and highlights again, what is actually a lacking. And that is the grace of God, the give the deliverance of, uh, faith to his children that results in that effectual calling. So your rights, and maybe I'll go back to my initial starting point, which was you better check your midnight oil.  [00:56:05] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, yeah.  [00:56:07] Calvin Buy By Faith [00:56:07] Tony Arsenal: Lemme close with these words from Calvin here on this, uh, this verse he's commenting on, uh. Around verse nine and he says, um, the word buy does not at all, imply that a price has been given as appears clearly from the passage in idea where the Lord, while he invites us to buy demands, no price, but informs us that he is wine and milk in abundance to be fortuitously bestowed. There is no other way of obtaining it, therefore, but to receive by faith what is offered to us. So the parable is saying to go and buy the oil, but the only way to buy the oil is to trust in Christ and receive the oil from him. There's no cost, there's no fee. There's no merit that you contribute that gives us this. Um, there's nothing that you do to earn, to, to buy the oil to, to obtain a. Well, Christ bestows it on you by faith. You simply have to receive it. And point of the parable, and I'll just close with this phrase, the point of the bear parable is that you do not know the day or the, so I think this is a great, uh, um, this is a great parable for us to meditate on, for us to ruminate on. Um, I know I'm gonna think about it, not because I, I fear, I'm fearful for my salvation, but I do think. Maybe this is something we can chat a little bit about next week, and, and actually maybe this is why these two are juxtaposed.  [00:57:34] Evangelism And Next Steps [00:57:34] Tony Arsenal: Um, maybe we need to think about a little bit of what this says for the Christian for evangelism, right? Yes. Um, if, if we do not know the day or the hour and, and there is this midnight call coming for people, then maybe we need to tell them, maybe we need to tell them that they do not know when the day or the hour is. So I think this is great and I'm excited to get into the next parable and I'm excited to keep moving. We've made this pivot into some of the eschatological parables of Christ, which is great. It's a, it's a different, sort of a different register of teaching than we've seen from him in, in the parable series so far, which is exciting. Uh, so I'm really stoked to keep going.  [00:58:08] Jesse Schwamb: Me too. And again, come hang out with us in the telegram chat in particular, and chat about this with us. I think that that's where so much good conversation happens. It's not, of course, the only place and nor should it be where we process this and live life together, but it is one place where we can do that and get to know other brothers and sisters. I, I think, Tony, you've often challenged me and our listeners by saying, take this episode and go have your own conversation with your spouses. Yeah. With your parents, with your loved ones. And now more than ever. I think maybe the setup for our next conversation is, how do we understand the urgency of evangelism in light of what we've learned here? Because this grace in this message is for the Christian. And in that way we find, I think, great assurance in this parable, while at the same time delivering the stack reality of that midnight hour in that cry coming. And again, our states being. Fixed at that moment where there's no more preparation that can take place. And there is so much right now that's being preached in churches across the world that will tell you that really you don't need to worry about this. That even what Christ is saying here is not entirely accurate. That somehow, even though it may be a pointed once for man to die, that after that point there is some remedial way back into salvation. And what we find here, what Christ is telling us is that is simply not true. It stands in direct opposition to what our Lord and Savior is teaching us here. And so that makes it, I think, all the more urgent to understand that there is an emergency in our world and that is that there are those perishing without Christ. And so we ought to make that a priority to deliver to them the gospel that we ourselves have often also received. And the one that God, through his calling and through the affectual work of the Holy Spirit, has made real and effectual to us.  [00:59:55] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:59:56] Wrap Up And Teaser [00:59:56] Tony Arsenal: Well, Jesse, that's as good a place for us to push pause. We are done with this parable. We got through it in a week, which is pretty, uh, pretty miraculous. I think it happens. Um, but we're not done with the parables and we're not even really done with this teaching of Christ, because the next verse starts with four. So we know that it's a continuation of, uh, of what, uh, not for the number for FOR. What a teaser. What a teaser. We know this is a continuation of, of this teaching. So, Jesse, until then, until next time, honor everyone.  [01:00:26] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood. 
• 
  God's Universal Gospel Call: The Parable of the Wedding Feast 25.05.2026 59min

  In this profound exploration of Matthew 22:1-14, we examine Jesus's parable of the wedding feast—one of the most theologically dense teachings in Scripture. This parable reveals the magnificent scope of God's gospel invitation extended to all humanity, the tragic reality of human rejection, and the sovereign grace that ensures God's purposes will not be thwarted. Through the imagery of a royal wedding banquet, Jesus addresses the religious leaders who challenged His authority while simultaneously unveiling timeless truths about salvation, election, and the nature of the Church. This episode unpacks the parable's layers of meaning, from the universal call of the gospel to the particular grace of election, equipping believers to understand both the urgency and the sovereignty of God's redemptive work. Key Takeaways The Universal Gospel Call Is Genuine and Urgent: God's invitation to salvation goes out indiscriminately to all people, regardless of ethnicity, social status, or moral condition. This external call is sincere, well-meant, and accompanied by genuine offers of grace. Human Rejection Is Willful and Culpable: The parable demonstrates that humanity's refusal of God's invitation is not due to insufficient information but to volitional rebellion. This rejection often progresses from indifference to active hostility against God and His messengers. God's Sovereign Purposes Cannot Be Frustrated: Despite widespread rejection, the wedding hall will be filled. God's redemptive plan includes the expansion of His covenant community beyond ethnic Israel to include Gentiles from every nation. The Wedding Garment Represents Imputed Righteousness: The garment required for the feast symbolizes the righteousness of Christ, received by faith alone, not earned through human effort. This illustrates the doctrine of justification by grace through faith. The Visible Church Contains Both Genuine and False Believers: The parable warns that not all who hear the gospel and enter the visible church possess true saving faith, distinguishing between the external call and the internal, effectual work of the Spirit. Eternal Punishment Is Real and Conscious: The parable's conclusion soberly affirms the doctrine of eternal, conscious punishment for those who reject Christ, depicted as "outer darkness" with "weeping and gnashing of teeth." "Many Are Called, But Few Are Chosen": This foundational statement maintains the biblical tension between the universal external call of the gospel and the particular, effectual call of God that sovereignly draws the elect to salvation. Key Concepts The Nature of the Gospel Call: External and Effectual Reformed theology has carefully distinguished between two aspects of God's call. The external or general call is the sincere proclamation of the gospel to all without distinction, inviting everyone to faith and repentance. This call is genuine on God's part—He truly offers salvation to all who hear. However, due to total depravity, the natural person will not respond to this call on their own. The internal or effectual call is the sovereign, irresistible work of the Holy Spirit by which the elect are regenerated, have their wills renewed, and are infallibly brought to saving faith. This distinction preserves both human responsibility (we are culpable for rejecting a genuine offer) and divine sovereignty (God alone saves by His grace). The parable beautifully illustrates both realities: servants genuinely invite all they find on the highways, yet the King ultimately determines who is properly clothed for the feast. The Wedding Garment and Justification by Faith Alone The wedding garment represents one of the parable's most critical theological elements. In ancient Near Eastern culture, hosts often provided garments for wedding guests, making the lack of proper attire inexcusable. Theologically, this garment symbolizes the righteousness of Christ imputed to believers—a righteousness not produced by human effort but received through faith alone. This directly confronts any notion of works-righteousness or the idea that we can stand before God based on our own moral achievements, religious observances, or church membership. The man without the garment represents those who presume to approach God on the basis of their own righteousness rather than Christ's alien righteousness. His speechlessness before judgment illustrates that on the last day, no one will successfully argue their case on grounds of personal merit. This underscores the Reformation principle of sola gratia and sola fide—salvation is by grace alone through faith alone, clothing us in a righteousness that is entirely Christ's. The Tension Between Universal Call and Particular Election The parable's conclusion—"many are called, but few are chosen"—encapsulates one of theology's profound mysteries. This statement places two realities side by side without resolving the tension philosophically. The invitation truly goes to all (universal call), yet only some respond savingly (particular election). Reformed theology maintains this biblical tension rather than collapsing it in either direction. We don't limit the external call only to the elect (hyper-Calvinism), nor do we make the internal call dependent solely on human decision (Arminianism). Instead, we affirm that the gospel invitation is genuinely universal while the effectual drawing is sovereignly particular. This means Christians can proclaim unreservedly, "Christ has died for you" to any person, knowing the offer is sincere, while simultaneously trusting that God will infallibly save all His elect through that proclamation. Memorable Quotes "The most scandalous and tragic thing that could happen at a wedding or a wedding banquet is that nobody shows up. The guests don't come. Or in fact, not only do they not come, they don't want to come—they burn the invitations." "You don't bring anything to your salvation except the sin that made it necessary." "Many a man in this world will silence his own conscience with many a fair excuse. But in that day, there will be no excuse, no plea, no delay." - William Perkins Full Episode Transcript [00:00:58] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 493 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse, and this is the podcast where we will talk about every single parable. Hey, brothers and sisters. So when was the last time that you were at a wedding? I think weddings are one of the most glorious of all kinds of human events and celebrations, and I think the solemness of the vows and the promises that are exchanged between a man and a woman in marriage in that ceremony, or maybe only equaled by the joy of those same vows and promises. And of course, the whole point of coming together to celebrate a, a wedding. Is to make that joy consummate and complete by having others participate in it. The seeing the union of a man and a woman become one, the excitement of that love expressed in promise and commitment. It's an incredible thing. And I was thinking about this recently because our wedding invitation is actually framed in, in our living room because one of the guests that we invited gave that to us as a really thoughtful gift. And so our wedding ceremony and the party that followed, and it was a. Amazing and awesome party, especially thanks to my in-laws and my parents who generously made sure that that was possible was an exceptional event that we still talk about all the time. Actually, you know, in my wedding when we had this grand kind of wedding banquet afterwards, we had a friend of ours who actually performed the song that we danced to on grand piano and sang for us, which is amazing. We had a DJ in one room and we had a live jazz band in another, and I specifically recall. That when we left late in the evening, my new wife and I, that there were still people on the dance floor having a good time. And I thought, this is the way it's supposed to be. I mean, this is a wedding. This is a wedding banquet. [00:02:58] Why No One Comes [00:02:58] Jesse Schwamb: And so it also made me think recently, especially as we find ourselves in Matthew chapter 22, continuing to look at all these incredible parables that Jesus gives to us, that perhaps the most scandalous and tragic thing that could happen at a wedding or a wedding banquet is that nobody shows up. The guests don't come. Or in fact, like not only do they not come, they don't want to come, they burn the invitations. They wanna have nothing to do with the celebration or the ceremony itself. And so Jesus has been doing all of this teaching that we've been tracking, and he's been responding to these leaders in the Jewish community, the people we call the Pharisees and the scribes who have challenged his authority. And he's been progressing in the way that he's almost ratcheting up the language that he's using, the indictments that he's bringing to them. And now he's about to bring in weddings and specifically the wedding banquet. And that is where we're gonna find ourselves in a Matthew Chapter 22. Now, by the way, I should also mention that because my wife is super popular lady and super lovable. We had a pretty large wedding. I think we had over 200 guests, and so. Because my father-in-law is retired military, we were actually able to have our whole wedding banquet, our whole celebration and party on a local army base. But because of that, it meant that before you could actually get onto the base, all of our guests. Had to be searched. So it's nothing like, you know, basically just shaken down your wedding guests before they show up. So that also was super fun.  [00:04:32] Reading Matthew 22 [00:04:32] Jesse Schwamb: But let's go to the scriptures, everybody. So here's Matthew chapter 22. Uh, listen to this as we take a look at what Jesus has to say and why he brings in weddings. Actually, it might be helpful to say or to give you something, rather to listen to or listen for before you even hear me read the scriptures because. This parable of this wedding banquet, it is definitely one of the most theologically dense parables in the entire synaptic tradition. It is set like we've been saying within the final week of Jesus' ministry in Jerusalem, and it's embedded in the sequence of confrontational exchanges that he's having with the Jewish leadership because they have challenged his authority. And so as you listen to this being read, I want you to clue in, key in as they say to a couple of things. See if you can find the, like the Christological proclamation in this. There's a, a covenantal poll. I think there's some sociological instruction and there's an eschatological warning. All of this happens as is Jesus's jam in the short span of several verses where he illuminates all of these principles of the sovereign grace of God and the summons of the gospel. Total depravity and culpability of this, these rebellious people who refuse the call, the historical judgment of God upon the covenant breaking Israel. And then of course, the subsequent expansion of that covenant into the community include to include the Gentiles. All of this is happening. In this parable, and so I want you just to listen for that as we together read. Or in my case, I guess I just read, especially if you're driving, do not read the parable that begins in the first part of Matthew chapter 22. Here's the word of God. And Jesus answered and spoke to them again in parables saying The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, and he sent out his slaves to call those who had been called to the wedding feast and they were unwilling to come again. He sent out other slaves saying, tell those who have been called. Behold. I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fon livestock are all butchered and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast. But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his farm, another to his business, and the rest seized the slaves and mistreated them and killed them. But the king was enraged and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. Then he said to his slaves, the wedding is ready, but those who were called were not worthy. Go, therefore, to the main highways and as many as you find there, call to the wedding feast. And those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found both evil and good, and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who is not dressed in wedding clothes, and he said to him, friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes? And the man was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, bind him hand and foot and throw him into the outer darkness. In that place, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth for many are called, but few are chosen.  [00:07:50] Parable Context [00:07:50] Jesse Schwamb: Wow. So what an incredible. Story, what an incredible foundation or rubric or context in which so many rich theological concepts and pastoral concepts, doctrinal concepts are given to us from Jesus. And you'll notice that of course, chronologically here, this parable is following the parable of the two sons and the parable of the wicked tenants. Those are the vine growers that we were talking about over the last several episodes. And this one rounds everything out. It forms like a triptych of rejection parables directed against these chief priests and the Pharisees who keep coming after Jesus and his authority. And Matthew signals this kind of escalating tension. The Jewish leaders are now explicitly seeking to arrest Jesus. And Jesus responds not by treating their, not by retreating, of course, but by intensifying his indictment in this parabolic form. And here's where we arrive in Matthew 22. It's interesting to me, of course, that this is the approach that Jesus takes. He has already conveyed these two great stories, and at the end of the last one, Tony and I spoke about how this was where at least Matthew explains to us very directly that the, the Pharisees and the scribes, they understood, they discerned that Jesus was speaking about them, and yet Jesus says, I'm not done yet. I've got one more. And this is the culmination of all the things that he's been saying. And it starts again in verse one with Jesus saying, and again, he spoke to them in a parable. You know, it signals that the parable itself is still a reply. Not to a verbal question at this immediate moment, but to this ongoing posture of rejection exhibited by the religious leaders. You notice that what Matthew says here is very, I think, theologically significant in light of where Jesus explains that the parables both reveal and they conceal their instruments of divine judgment upon heart and hearts, even as they illuminate those with ears to hear. This is why I think it's just so important that as Christians. Even as we study God's word, as we participate in it, so to speak, as we let it read us, that we come with this posture of prayer, that we desperately need God's Holy, holy, holy Spirit to illuminate for us what the scriptures say, to lead us into the paths of righteousness and judgment, which are present in the scriptures, so that we may understand them with these spirit-filled eyes, with a spirit enabled brain with ears that have been unstopped by the spirit. So these parables are the mode by which Christ simultaneously honors and judges his audience. He shows indirectly what it would've been of no use to state plainly. And so the parable form itself is really part of the message here. I think that's something hopefully you picked up as we've been processing them all together, that Jesus opponents cannot arrest what they cannot fully comprehend, yet their incomprehension is itself their condemnation, right? This is, this is the mystery. Of the gospel of what God does, where there is this outward and full unbiased external call, and yet there is something that is efficacious by the power of the Holy Spirit for those whom God has chosen and called to himself so reformed to eus. Are attentive to the authorial intent in historical situatedness of each thing that Jesus says. That's one of the things I think is great about the way in which we kind of have organized our theological perspective and these parables function as a prophetic oracle of judgment. And certainly that's like in an Old Testament accent. I mean, that's the Old Testament jam. It's an Old Testament lawsuit kind of John. It's like law and order. If law and order were Moses, were doing it right. So notice that again, as Tony and I've said so many times before, what I kind of always find so phenomenal about these parables is that often we think of parables as having the main object of being a noun of some kind. It's a person, it's a place. It's a thing that is sometimes the case, but more often than not, it's one of those nouns associated with a verb.  [00:11:59] Kingdom And The King [00:11:59] Jesse Schwamb: And so we get that in verse two. The kingdom of heaven may be compared to what? To a king who gave a wedding banquet for his son. And so it implies that the kingdom is being revealed and likened in a definitive act. We got verbs, loved ones. This is the classic. The ultimate, God does all the verbs because you're gonna hear her over and over again. God is going out. God is giving. God is seeking. God is going after, and these verbs are really the center of the parable itself. It's not just that it's the wedding banquet as maybe the title in your scripture gives you, but it's more about this giving of this event and it's preparing of this grand feast. And so the recurrence of this allegory seemed, I think, pretty straightforward to us. The the king is God, the Father, the Son is Christ, and the wedding banquet, which by the way in the Greek here is plural, is really emphasizing that it's a totality of an occasion. This is the Messianic feast. This is the eschatological consummation of the Covenant of Grace. And that image imagery draws like so deep from this Old Testament well and background of God as the husband and the bridegroom of Israel. Again, how lovely and amazing for Jesus and his thorough knowledge of the scriptures to draw in something that the audience would've been like, yes, I know what you're talking about. I'm totally down with that. And so the son's wedding is therefore not some kind of like incidental entertainment. It is the central event of all history, the installation of the Messianic king and the gathering of his bride. And of course, the people hearing this would've immediately gravitated toward that. I think they would've leaned in maybe even like smiled or smirked at one another, knowing that this was now all that veiled. What Christ was drawing on here was the classic presentation. Of the family of God represented in the children of Israel itself, being drawn back into consummate harmony with God the Father, where there was peace and unitedness, and a celebration of this fact that all things were now made and brought together, that God was restoring and bringing all those back to himself in his true and true kingdom that could not be thwarted. So the fact that the king gives the banquet, prepares it, sends servants, selects the guests, underscores this incredible modernistic character of salvation. I think it's impossible to miss here that God is literally doing all the verbs. The initiative at every point is divine. There's no hint here of synergism. The guests do not arrange their own invitations, literally. And so that's why in verse three, we see God, he sending out his servants. And of course that's a familiar theme. It should be to us. If you've been tracking with us the last several parables we've been speaking of because the servants represent the prophets of the Old Testament and subsequently the apostles and the ministers of the word. The invitation had already gone out to quote those who were invited. So it's this perfect passive parable in the Greek, it's, it's indicating a prior and standing invitation. This is the external or general call of the gospel going out through the preaching of the word. And notice that there is always a response. Even here, Jesus moves directly and quickly to here's what the response was. In other words, as the scripture has told us that God's word never goes out in returns void, there's always, as it were, a response here, that's illustrated for us very directly because the response is not so good.  [00:15:32] Invitation Refused [00:15:32] Jesse Schwamb: I mean, this is what would, this is horrible like wedding etiquette. They were not willing to come. And this verb I think is critical because it's volitional refusal. It's not mere ignorance. And reformed theology is insistent here against any kind of constellation that makes man's rejection of the gospel. A matter of insufficient information or circumstances we know better, right? We as people should know that we as Christians who have been changed, know that the natural man here is not natural, merely because he lacks the certain kind of information as if he could be restored or regenerated or reformed if we just knew more things. The will is in bondage to sin. And so as the Westminster Confession, faith says, man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation. This is classic Jonathan Edwards, like, you don't bring anything to your salvation except the sin that made it necessary. For some reason in my head, I said that with kind of a, a weird, almost like southern attitude, which I did not mean to convey. But the point is that this refusal is total, it's willing, it's culpable, it's damnable, it's precisely that, which makes it all the more grievous. The invitation is genuine, the refusal is genuine, and the guilt here is entirely real. So the invited in verse three, represent all of Israel. I, I would say like particularly the leaders here, Tony and I have been talking about the responsibility of these, these leaders in particular to, of course, lead Shepherd, grow these people in faith and a love toward God in a way that is toward freedom and now toward more conviction around extraneous rules or heavy burdens that they set up for them that they cannot perform. And so we have these leaders who had received the covenantal promises and the prophetic witness. I mean, that's like classic Romans nine. The rejection of the servants echoes the pattern of prophetic persecution throughout all of Israel's history. So this is sad stuff. It's a sad beginning to have this grand wedding feast prepared by this king for his son set in motion with the invitations already gone out. And essentially all of those who have been invited have Ally refused.  [00:17:49] Feast Is Ready [00:17:49] Jesse Schwamb: But what's so incredible about God and his loving kindness is still represented here in verse four. The king does not relent after the first refusal, which is remarkable. I mean, this is, again, going back to our proper understanding that we love because God first loved us. That love always leads to giving. And so therefore, God so loved the world that he gave his only son. And when did he give his son? At the fullness of time when we were still at enmity, when we were enemies with him still, he sent his son for us and he sends, therefore a second embassy with an even more urgent and elaborate message that he gives them. He puts into their mouth. And the feast, again, is not merely planned. It's prepared. It's ready. The oxen and fat and calves are images of this lavish like sacrificial celebration. Everything's all slaughtered. Everything is ready to go. Now, I don't know the last time you've been to like an epic feast. I do mean like epic over the top feast. I want you to look up something for me. When you have a chance, look up, just go to your browser of choice and type in shady maples smorgasbord. Now, I don't know if you know what a smorgasbord is, but it's like a, I guess it's like a buffet, but like if you took a buffet and multiply it by a million and then only serve like rich, decadent food and more food than you could possibly really imagine and close to where I live, there's a very famous Amish style. Buffet called Shady Maple Smoker Sport. Just go look it up. 'cause it's gonna be possible for you to describe, but all I can say to you is this isn't just like your standard buffet, it's not just like a potluck where it's like, Hey, we got ham. And, um, we've got some salads and, uh, we've got that, uh, what's that? That weird stuff. You can I, the ambrosia, like we, we've got your hydrox cookies for dessert. This is the last time I was there and uh, actually I was there with my parents and my wife and they treated us. And because this was at a part of my life where my gallbladder was trying to attack me and kill me, I remember just being so ill while I was there feeling so ill, and yet just being so disappointed and bummed out that I couldn't eat all this glorious food because there was filet mignon and lobsters. And shrimp and fish and ham like glazed ham and like carving stations. And then for desserts there was like custards and pies and ice cream and cookies and whoopee pies. And it was this over the top celebration of food. And you couldn't help but just feel like, wow, this thing that we're doing right now is like incredible. I've also, I don't think ever seen my father sample so many different desserts because it was special. This was a, a lavish and incredible celebration for us, and it was prepared, it was ready to go. And we find the same thing here. And so the second sending corresponds to this ministry of the Apostles and the early churches proclamation to Israel. The urgency of the messages come now. It reflects this eschatological pressure of the gospel. A good kind of pressure as if like there's a tea kettle on the stove and it's heating up, and now it's starting to whistle and then to boil over. The kingdom has arrived. Loved ones, the feast is set, delay is inexcusable, and, and so the language of readiness, I think is this glorious language of the gospel. The atonement has accomplished. Christ has been crucified, risen, and exalted, and the feast of salvation is prepared. And what I love is that the reformed tradition consistently insists on the sufficiency of Christ's work for all and the genuine freeness of that gospel offer. I like this is what I usually go back to, is that the cannons of dort affirm this in this way. This is the quote. The promise of the gospel is that whosoever believes in Christ, crucified shall not perish, but of everlasting life. This promise together with the command to repent and believe, ought to be declared and proclaimed to all the nations. The invitation is genuine and urgent. The feast is truly ready. [00:22:01] Mission To All [00:22:01] Jesse Schwamb: The church that I attend is part of the Christian Missionary Alliance denomination, and one of the many things I love about my church is that outward and continual focus on this very thing. That the invitation is genuine. It is urgent, and the feast is truly ready, and it is for all peoples. This freeness to, as we talked about before, scatter the seed of the gospel message unreservedly and without bias to all, all in your sphere of influence. All nations, all people, all tongues, all tribe. And my church is very serious about this. In fact, one of the things our pastor loves to do is oftentimes when he's giving it this kind of proclamation, in fact, just this Lord's day, he was speaking from Matthew 28 and about the Great Commission and the essential nature of that great commission is every Christian's promise to participate in that. It is something you and I are commissioned for and we ought to regularly evaluate our, what our prayers look like. What our finances look like and what our time looks like with respect to whether we are taking seriously that commission, which God has given to us. And so in reminding us of that very fact, one of the things he'll often say from the pulpit is he'll ask out to the congregation, he'll say, what is our middle name? And everybody will respond, missionary. And, and while it's a little bit trite, it reminds us that as part of like the essential ethos in DNA of who we are as Christians, and in fact in this particular year. One of the themes that the whole Christian Missionary Alliance nomination has been focusing on is all of Jesus for All the World takes all of us. I love that all of Jesus for all the world takes all of us. And so we have embedded in this parable here, so much of this intentionality of the gospel, of going out for all people, making this, this message and this mission available. Going out and speaking and preaching and witnessing and testifying of how great God is and what he has done in setting and preparing this gospel message for all people. But in verse five, we find out that even still with all of this, they paid no attention. They went off one to his farm and another to his business. In other words, the word here suggests this kind of contemptuous indifference rather than this active hatred that that actually comes a little bit later. But worldly affairs, a farm, some converse. All this displaces the invitation. And these are not wicked activities, of course, in themselves. Their wickedness consists in their displacement of what is the ultimate. And that I think is actually like very penetrating diagnosis of the human condition. The great enemy of the gospel, at least it seems to me, is not always, as you talk to people, like some kind of dramatic philosophical rejection, some well articulated hatred toward God. It's instead like a quiet absorption in the ordinary pursuits of life. It's like what I think Augustine called being curved inward upon oneself. The world is a great enchant. It be witches our souls, it distracts us. There are so many things that can pull us away from not only meditating on this gospel message, but coming alongside and appreciating. In participating in that great commission. There's so many things to distract us. It's, it's not as if we need a list. I think if I asked each one of you or you asked me, what are some things that you find distracting that pull you away from time and prayer time, studying God's word, time spent with my wife, time spent serving in my local church. I'm not gonna be hard pressed to find those things to say to you. So this idea that we have, whether it's the farm or this business pursuit here, I suppose it could be representative to at least great earthly loves. You have the land, kind of a agrarian rooted life, and then there's trade mercantile and acquisitive life. I mean, maybe these just suggests that the rejection spans all of our social and economic classes, both within Israel at the time and for us today. And so we move both from like this kind of cold indifference, this we'll have other things to do. I'm, I'm just too busy. And, uh, how many times do we really convince ourselves that we can justify our busyness when we feel the pull of the spirit that there is a need? We feel the pull of the gospel message because there's the gospel pressure to ensure that we are speaking truth and love to those around us. That we ourselves are responding to this invitation with our wholeheartedness, our mind, soul, and spirit, everything that we are, and we convince ourselves. Well, I just, you know, I have a lot going on right now. God, there's just so much that I need to do.  [00:26:34] Indifference Turns Violent [00:26:34] Jesse Schwamb: Now we get to verse six and things shift a little bit. Verse six reads, while the rest sees the servants and treated them shamefully and killed them. Now, what's interesting to me is the indifference, kinda just that cold lackadaisical ness of verse five escalates somehow into violence. In verse six, some of them invited not only ignore the servants, but actively persecute them. And so here we have them, basically are being told they treated them outrageously, shamelessly, they killed them, and, and that's really the language of the entire prophetic tradition, the killing of the prophets. In fact, this Greek word here is ris. It's a word for arrogance. Honor, violating, assault, a sin against the honor of both the messenger and the one who sent him both. Like the one who is the emissary and the one who grants power or vouch saves authority to that emissary. And so to assault the king's servant is of course, to come against the king, and this is an act of high treason. It's against the sovereign God of the entire universe. I, I like here something that Calvin notes about this kind of inexcusable aggregation of aggravation of Israel's sin. He writes, they not only rejected the grace, which was offered to them, but added cruelty to their contempt. That's incredible. Right? That's exactly what we do. We reject God. It's, it's of course like not only just taking all the gifts he gives us and pretending as if they're under our own authority or. Have been the result of our own talents or abilities. But instead, when we do this, we add cruelty to all of our contempt. And the reformed doctrine, of course, of total depravity is not merely the claim that humans are bad. It's the claim that following humanity left to itself moves progressively from the indifference. That we saw in the previous verse, verse five, two, hostility toward the living God in his gospel messengers, which we see in verse six. In other words, unless God constrain us, loved ones, that is the natural end of man to move from this place where I do not care about God till I hate him, and then I hate all those who represent him, all those who speak on his behalf. [00:28:46] Judgment On The City [00:28:46] Jesse Schwamb: And so the king's response here, as you might imagine, is one of anger. He's angry. He sends his troops and he destroys the scriptures, say those are murderers, and he burns their city. I mean, the verse is almost certainly this kind of pro prophecy filled in its intent and its content. It's I think, probably a transparent reference to the destruction of Jerusalem by Roman armies in 80, 70. And Matthew, even if we say he's writing after that event, or in like a conservative dating with prophetic anticipation, presents Christ as foreseeing and pronouncing the divine judgment upon the city. And this King's anger, of course, is not just, it's not anger that's looking for reciprocity. It's not just anger that's saying, this has made me upset and I'm responding viscerally and emotionally. It's not petulant rage. It is holy and righteous wrath of the sovereign whose grace has been despised and whose servants have been murdered. The destruction is complete. The murderers are destroyed, the city is burned to the ground, and there are foreign tradition kind of following. A covenantal hermeneutic, I think reads 80, 70 as this terminus of the old Covenant administration in many ways, and the judgment upon Nashville Israel for his rejection, for her rejection, rather of the Messiah, you know? While all of that is true, I think what this presents for us is a reminder of how serious our God's Holiness is. And that again, every time we sin, every time that we come against God and someone would challenge his authority as it were, either directly or indirectly, we put ourselves in the place of those who reject the gospel message. And in so doing, we ought to fall on our knees and ask for the kind of repentance that is necessary because we ourselves are putting our place, we're extending among. The murderers, and in this case, the, the message that Jesus has for those is only anger and again, is a righteous kind of anger. So one might imagine as we read in like the previous parables, that Jesus could have just entirely ended there. It almost sounds like we've drawn to a close.  [00:31:04] Invitation Rejected [00:31:04] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, there's a king. He has a wedding banquet for his son. He sent out last invitations. Nobody came. He goes to confronts the guests and not only do they say we're not interested, some of them are like, yeah, we burned all the invitations. And then the people that you sent to remind us, we killed those people. And it'll be right for the king to say. That's it. Everybody's done here. I'm shutting the whole thing down. And honestly, that could have happened in the garden. That could happen at the cross. Instead, we find something totally different. The parable goes on.  [00:31:33] Feast Still Happens [00:31:33] Jesse Schwamb: In fact, verse eight reads, then he said to his servants, the wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Notice loved ones that the feast does not get canceled. I mean, Christmas doesn't get canceled. It's just redirected. The king's purposes will not, cannot be frustrated, and this is a critical sociological and eschatological claim to me, at least. What we're seeing here is the refusal of the invited guests does not leave the wedding hall empty. Praise the Lord. It occasions the wider extension of the invitation.  [00:32:07] Gospel Offer Explained [00:32:07] Jesse Schwamb: And this idea of not worthy does not introduce a prior standard of merit by which the guests were found deficient. But instead, as you know, their unworthiness consists in their refusal To refuse the gospel is to demonstrate one's unworthiness of it. And so worthiness in this context is not some kinda like moral achievement, but it's a covenantal responsiveness. It's the openness of the creature to receive what the king graciously provides. It's why when we stand before God in the kind of judgment that we rightfully deserve, and he says something to the extent of, why should I let you into my heaven? Why should I let you enjoy eternal life with me? We should rightly say, because you promised. And because by the power of your Holy Spirit, through the faith you have given and instilled in me by this imputed righteousness, I can trust you at your promise. And so I think this verse is like so critical for understanding the well meant offer of the gospel. Again, we should together affirm that the gospel is offered to all without distinction, and that those who do not come are inexcusable. God does not will. The damnation of those who reject the gospel as a bare first intention, their damnation follows from their own culpable refusal.  [00:33:31] Mission To All Roads [00:33:31] Jesse Schwamb: And so the king says, listen guys, go out everywhere. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding piece. As many as you find. I don't know how you're envisioning. If you were listening to this story and you were like setting the actual scene, but I don't know, to me, I just find them, the, the servants or the slaves that they look at it one another and they're just like s go time and they just turn around and start going everywhere to all the places, uh, to anyone who will listen to all the like, stops that there were on the byways. All the highways, all the roads. They're just going through all the places. Wherever the road takes 'em, that's where they're going. And all along the way they're spreading this mission, this invitation, and the mission now. Is universal in scope. The main roads, literally the, the exits, the outlets of all these places. The thoroughfares, where the roads branch out of the city and the highways diverge in the countryside. This is representing, of course, like the ends of the earth, the places where any and all may be found. And the command here to as many as you find to go to those is of course, like a command of universal scope. It's for you and me, loved ones there. There's no prior qualification, rich or poor, Jewish, gentile, moral or immoral. This is the missio day, breaking through all ethnic and social boundaries, and in this loving way, in this pastoral way, it underpins the free and indiscriminate offer of the gospel. Again, like going back to the Westminster Confession and the shorter catechism, affirming this covenant of grace that is administered by the preaching of the word. And no matter where you work, like reform theology from like William Cur, David Bernard, like to the modern missionary movement, we're drawing from this mandate of precisely this kind of universal commission. You know, it's like Spurgeon, I think once said something effect of like, Christ has done more than give a general invitation. He has given an urgent, pressing, commanding invitation to all something like that. And I always remember that because when I think about what it means to step into this role of fulfilling the great commission of understanding what Jesus is saying here, it's not just as if we're saying, listen, the world is in a dire place. This is an emergency situation. And so for all of us in our sphere of influence. To bring forward this message of the indiscriminate offer of the gospel is to take God at his word and then to deliver that word to all of those, all the highways, all the byways, all the outplace, every tribe, Tong, nation. What a glorious thing that our God has given us and put us on mission in this way so that no matter who we meet, we know we might say Jesus loves you, that Jesus has died for you. This is, I think, one of the things that those who maybe are new to the reformed tradition and the theological perspective. Find a little bit interesting to parse out, or maybe sometimes if you've had conversations like I have people think that we're parsing the words too much, but there's something to be said for the death of Jesus being sufficient for all and efficacious for the elect, that we're not simply splitting words. There we're describing very discreetly, very cogently, very crisply. This indiscriminate gospel message while at the same time recognizing that it's God's sovereign choice and will to draw those whom he will to himself. And so in verse 10.  [00:36:54] Good And Bad Gathered [00:36:54] Jesse Schwamb: These servants go out to the roads and they gather all whom they found both good and bad. And so the wedding hall, guess what was filled with guests, because this is God's sovereign prerogative because he can do all these things because even those who have denied him does not remove him from power. That he does all the verbs and so the servants obey and the results are comprehensive. They gather in all of these, and Matthew's quick to say both the good and the bad, and I think like the good and the bad pairing is significant. I don't think this is necessarily meaning that there's the morally virtuous and the morally depraved, though that probably is included somewhere. But I think this, this more, this reflection that, once again, it's all kinds of people. For God's to love the world that whomsoever, all of those who believe in him should not perish, but have eternal life. The wedding hall is filled, it was filled, and it's filled by God's sovereign action through human instrumentality.  [00:37:53] Visible And Invisible Church [00:37:53] Jesse Schwamb: And there is, like I'd say, if you're tracking with this, you should notice that there is a, a kinda a tension here. It sits between verses 10 and 11, and it's going to resolve the banquet hall is full. But you'll notice that it's not all within, well, not everybody who's within it are truly saved. And we'll get to why that isn't just a second. But the filling of the hall through the universal gospel summons does produce a mixed company. We've already talked about the parable of the terrors in the wheat before, so this, this should be news if you've been listening to us for a little while, but it's precisely the condition of the visible church in this age. Again, I just think it's fantastic that when we go to the scriptures, one of the reasons we know it's true is because God tells us the truth about the way things are. And we know that this is the way that the church is today. We would call this the visible versus the invisible church. And of course there's a distinguishing between the visible church, which consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion from the invisible church, which is the totality of the elect, those who God has actually called to himself. So the hole is full. But not all in the hall are clothed. And this is fascinating how Jesus brings in this idea of dressing of not, I mean, not what you put on your salad, a smorgasbord, but like what you're actually wearing.  [00:39:07] Wedding Garment Meaning [00:39:07] Jesse Schwamb: So in verse 11, but the king came in to look at the guests and he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. So notice that the parable scene here kind of shifts dramatically all of a sudden because the king arrives suddenly. He's present. He was speaking, he was giving instructions, he was preparing, he was a character, kind of chilling in the background. But now there's this eschatological moment the king's coming to inspect. The guests corresponds to this final judgment, and what he finds is there's a man without a wedding garment. He's at the center, I think of this parables, theological climax. So what, what is this wedding garment? I would put it to you like, as you're thinking through this and maybe interpreting listening for yourself, what do you think the wedding garment is? And I would say like what most reformed interpreters have been unified on is that this really represents that imputed righteousness, the the righteousness of Christ that's credited to the believer and received by faith alone. And so by a wedding garment, I would understand this to mean the purity and the holiness of that transforms and regenerated life, which is required of all those who are brought inside the true and invisible church. And though he immediately qualifies this as like righteousness, that is inseparable from justification. It is not earned, but it is received. In fact, I think, uh, I have my Logos Bible software up as I'm talking to you, and I see that Matthew Henry comments on this by saying, the righteousness of Christ is the robe of righteousness, the garment of salvation in which true believers are closed. I mean. That's a great turn of phrase, brothers and sisters. I love this idea of what the scriptures tell us elsewhere of putting on these garments of praise or worship, the garments of Christ, of being exchanged out as it were, for what is dirty and unsuitable for something that suits the occasion that is given to you to wear by faith alone. And of course, this wedding garment is not a work that the guest has produced, but it's a garment provided, uh, presumably like the king's servants actually supplied it. Uh, I, I think that's like a detail implied by the ancient custom and the severity of the guest condemnation for lacking it. It's almost as if the king is saying. Uh, like you were, should have been provided. Why did you not put this on? Why did by faith you not accept this? And this underscores the so gratia and so fide. The righteousness by which we stand before God on the last day is not our own, but Christ, it's received through faith. And the man without the garment represents those who presume to stand before God on the basis of their own righteousness. Whether that's religious profession. Moral achievement, charitable giving, mere church membership rather. And instead of. That alien and beautiful righteousness of Christ. So the fact that this man is inside the hall, you know, he's come in through the general call confirms that the parable addresses not only those outside the church, but those within it who lack genuine saving faith. It's almost, to me, kind of like an intra ecclesial warning. It's, it's not merely a missional observation. I think that is for all of us. It's why Paul elsewhere says. Check test, confirm to see whether you yourselves are in this faith because it is by faith that we put on these wedding garments which are appropriate and suitable for this great eschatological Messianic wedding feast with the lamb. [00:42:48] Speechless Before Judgment [00:42:48] Jesse Schwamb: So in verse 12, the king says to him, friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment? And notice the man's response. I, I almost find this kind of funny because he just says, and he was speechless. Like there was, there was nothing for him, uh, to, to say it all. And of course, like this question that's posed here, this, how did you get in here without the winning government? It's not a real question, right? It's not a question of genuine puzzlement. It's the same way in which when we find God walking in the cool of the day, in the garden after the sin of Adam and E, where he says, Adam, where are you? It's not a genuine question of a quizzical nature. It's instead, this rhetorical structure is God questions through judgments. And when he says to Cain, where is Abel your brother, where is Abel, your brother? He's exposing and he's condemning. He's not merely inquiring. And so this man in response, sensing this condemnation, discerning this condemnation, this judgment that's been brought against him, I think this is why the Greek says he was muzzled. He was silenced, his mouth was shut up. He had no answer. Uh, it's not because the question was unfair. But because there was just no legitimate words that he could bring there, there was no argumentation. In other words, there's no poll mic. There was no great debate that he could have. In this moment. Every mouth will be stopped before God. I mean, that's like Romans three. The silence of the ungodly before the Divine Tribunal is a consistent biblical theme, and we find it here. Again, this is the eschatological end to those who are condemned. No one loved ones is gonna stand before God on the last day and successfully argue their case on the ground of personal merit. I love William Perkins on this topic. He was apparently really moved. I learned by this verse and by what he saw in the silence as a profound warning against false assurance. So he actually wrote many a man in this world. Silence is his own conscience. With many fair excuse. Do you hear that? I, I love that turn of phrase. So we're talking about silence. It's about being silence, but I love how he says it's very easy to, to silence, not yourself, not like somebody coming against you with debate, but your own conscience. So he writes, again, many a man in this world will silence his own conscience with many a fair excuse. But in that day, there will be no excuse, no plea, no delay. So that time of plea is now, it's in this life. It's by faith and repentance, which is why there's an urgency to this gospel message. And so the king.  [00:45:17] Outer Darkness Warning [00:45:17] Jesse Schwamb: In hearing this and knowing that this man has no excuse for his outer attire, he says to him, listen to the servants. Bind him hand and foot, cast him into outer darkness. In that place, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The sentence is severe. It's total. Of the command is given to the servants and attendance maybe in this parable and parabolic form, likely the angelic executors of divine judgment and it is binding. It renders the condemned utterly helpless. It's a picture of total divine control over the destiny of the ate. He has cast into this outer darkness, outside the light and warmth of the banquet hall entirely. And I think it's incumbent upon us to take a second and to grieve the repercussions of what is being said here. That the death and destruction of the ATE should make us grieve. It should compel us to go out into the highways, the byways, and to share this message. Unreservedly. One of the ways we know really the full anguish of what this entails is this phrase, weeping and gnashing of teeth, actually occurs seven times in Matthew, and it functions as this refrain, this chorus, this common language of this eschatological condemnation, it combines interestingly in this wordplay here, both the anguish of grief with the rage of frustrated pride. It's a portrait, not of this just like regret, but continuing imp penitent, hostility against God and eternal punishment. And I think if Tony were here, he would agree with me that we have consistently affirmed the doctrine of eternal conscience punishment. You know, the Westminster Confession says, the wicked who know not God and obey not the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be cast into eternal torments. In other words, this outer darkness is not annihilation. The weeping and the gnashing continues. It implies an ongoing conscious existence. It's the image of a binding stands against the notion of this kind of postmortem repentance or universalism. The severity of that verse, I think, really must be allowed to stand in its canonical context without mitigation. The, the severity of this judgment ought to fill us with fear, not theological domestication. We, we shouldn't set this aside and be saying, well, this implies that there is nothing after that time. No, there continues to be only time with God in his presence, in eternal, consummate joy and harmony and peacefulness and celebration. Or there is literally. A weeping and a gnashing of teeth, an unresolved rage and anger where that is punished by God because he's absent where there's unmitigated pain and suffering because it is absent the presence and the mediation of God himself, who even now in this world, holds us back so that while we are sinful and we are not as bad as we could or ought to be because of his great kindness, all of us, even those. Who are not believers.  [00:48:37] Called Yet Chosen [00:48:37] Jesse Schwamb: And so because of that, it ends with these very famous in stock words in in verse 14, for many are called, but few are chosen. And that concluding aphorism is, I think, the theological linchpin of this entire thing. The contrast between this idea of called and chosen, you know, this is the vocabulary that is deliberately covenantal and elective, and we shouldn't shy away from that. Of course, it's referring to this external call, the universal proclamation of the gospel to all the hearers. The call is genuine, it's earnest, it's gentile, it's sufficient as an offer. It is the call that goes to all the highways, all who hear the gospel are truly called to repentance and faith. And for me, in my own journey of understanding what this means as God has allowed me to, that has been critical. This idea that this universal call means that it is sufficient as a call to repentance and faith for all those who hear it. And then it does become the responsibility of all those who hear it to respond to it. And so this idea then of this pairing then with the chosen and the elect is referring of course to those whom God has chosen from before the foundation of the world. The elect are those who not only receive the external call, but are effectually drawn by the eternal efficacious call of the Holy Spirit. We can look to Romans eight 30, those whom he predestined, he also called, and those whom he called, he also justified. And I say, because this is a Reformed Theological podcast, and this is what you came here for, I presume, brothers and sisters. Then it behooves us to at least mention again that the reformed tradition has classically distinguished between that external or general call, the sincere well meant proclamation of the gospel to all without distinction, inviting everybody to faith and repentance. That call is genuine on God's part and God's doing the verbs in that as well. And then again, we, we set that over in next two, the internal, what we call like effectual efficacious call. It's sovereign. It's irresistible work of the Holy Spirit by which the elect regenerated, have their will renewed and are infallibly brought to saving faith. All those whom God has predestined unto life and those only he's pleased in his appointed and accepted time to affectionately call by His word and his spirit out of the state of sin and death to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ. I was thinking recently of this idea of the narrow path and somewhere between like the scriptures there and pilgrim's progress, and paths and journeys. I had this image in my mind of the road on which we walk. And in this life, the natural man on that road encounters all these like intractable boulders, these things that cannot be traversed. These just great mountainous pieces of rock, which block the path. And so prevent us from at least accomplishing the thing that we would like. Like to live forever, to have peace with God, to be at peace with ourselves, to love our brothers and our sisters as much as we love ourselves to honor something that is greater than us. And those boulders are things like sin, death in the devil, which constantly invade us, which constantly thwart us, which constantly block us. And in Christ, what he has accomplished in salvation is not just, I think to remove those boulders, though that would've been good enough of course to just get them outta the way. Instead, it's as if he's taken them and he's crushed them, and now to the softest sand between our toes and we walk over them in victory by the power of his name through the Holy Spirit into eternal life. Into that grand wedding feast spoil, which we have been invited because he has done this because he loves us. And so verse 14 places these two realities side by side without resolving the tension. Philosophically, this is one of the great mysteries of theology. Uh, reformed theology does not collapse the distinction by limiting the external call to the elect alone as like maybe kind of a hyper Calvinist model, but it doesn't make the internal call dependent on a human decision. As like Armenian theology would instead, you know, the tension is, is biblical. This is here for us. It's here for us, because I believe that God wishes for us to submit our knowledge and our reasoning to him knowing that he is far and above us. And because this tension is biblical, it has to be maintained. The invitation is genuinely universal. The effectual drawing is sovereignly particular. How great is our God loved ones? There is no one like him. And so there's so much in this that I think we could spend all of the rest of our life thinking about, and that would be a noble, I was just thinking today that, um, you know, unless the Lord Terrys like, maybe this will be the last series me and Tony ever do, because there's so much that's rich and deep in these parables and there's so many of them, and the teaching of Christ is, is so complete of course, for us because it gives us everything that we need for life and salvation and godliness that. We find that the more that we look into them, the more that we ask the Holy Spirit to bathe us in a realization that comes from the spirit of God, the more that we will find. They challenge us. They encourage us. They equip us. So I'm thinking and praying for you all as I hope that you are for Tony and I as we continue to wrestle with these things as we continue to talk them out, because I'm asking God that he would equip us as we look at the teaching of his son in these parables with a firm understanding of the truth and equip us with his promises and with his encouragement so that. As he grows us in our faith, our faith for us would be like a thousand eyes and a thousand wings that we would find ourselves moving from glory to glory. Because we see in these parables the great work of God for us. What he has accomplished through his son and how he continues to be for us and the son who is given for us is with us. That we have his Holy Spirit within us and who discerns the mind of God, accept the spirits of God. So love us. Let's continue to get after what's being said in these parables here because there's so much for us here.  [00:55:14] Living The Commission [00:55:14] Jesse Schwamb: And might I add, just to tack onto the end, there's also so much for the world. I know that we're quick to say, or like colloquially Christians have said in the past like, Jesus is the answer, but you I think cannot necessarily fault the world for sometimes asking, well, what is the question? And unless we go forward with this proper understanding that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. That all are in need of this savior and that this gospel message is for, in fact, for all people without reservation. Full stop. I guess I ask for you and I and Tony who's editing this episode, are we going out into the highways and byways? What is the proof of the pudding in the eating look like when we examine our lives, but with specifically our finances and our time and our prayer closet and our service? Aren't we in fact concerned with the great commission that is reflected here? Are we concerned with the emergence and urgent need of this gospel message, which is for all people because God so loved the world that he gave his only forgotten son. That whosoever shall believe in him will not per but have everlasting life.  [00:56:27] Community And Support [00:56:27] Jesse Schwamb: So come hang out with us. Come talk about this parable. You know where to go. But I'm gonna tell you anyway because that's what we do. If you go to your browser, type in T Me Back slash Reform Brotherhood, t Me Back slash Reform Brotherhood, that link will take you to an app called Telegram. Telegram is just a messaging app. It's like, I dunno, iMessages for Apple or whatever you Android people are using these days. And there's just a little community that we've sectioned off there. And it's a community of listeners to the Reform Brotherhood who are talking about all kinds of things. You, you wanna be in that group? It is. It is a great group. Don't, don't reject the invitation. Don't reject it. Just, just come. I know you're thinking, listen, I got land. I got commerce I gotta deal with. That's fine. Come, come and join us. So go to t.me/reform brotherhood. One last thing. I would be remiss if I didn't thank all of those who make sure that this podcast still goes out to all the highways and the byways of the internet. That there is no Jericho paywall around it because it does cost money to put out there all the subscriptions, all the distribution. It's surprising, but there are. Intense fees with a lot of that stuff, and so I wanna say thank you, thank you, thank you to those who have listened and said, you know what? I would like to make sure. That this continues to go on. I've been blessed just by the conversation. God has done something here because again, he does all the verbs. Tony and I do zero verbs, and so because of that, they've gone to patreon.com Reform Brotherhood, and they've just decided to give a little bit of the kindness of their heart and generosity to the Lord. So if you're thinking, you know what? I've been listening for a while, and I do appreciate that this just magically, as it were, pops up in my feed and I continue to listen to it. Would you please consider helping us? Uh, Tony and I and so many other listeners who give a little bit just to make sure that together we can keep this thing going strong. And again, you can just go to patreon.com/reform brotherhood. There's also a website, uh, reform brother.com and all kinds of other fun stuff. But I will leave that to you. I, I didn't even bring it up. See, I'm just so glad that you mentioned it yourself 'cause it would've been awkward otherwise.  [00:58:31] Final Blessing [00:58:31] Jesse Schwamb: So loved ones. There are still so many more parables to go. They're all so good. So I hope that you all come back and join us next time as we continue to move through these parables. But until then, there's something that you should definitely do honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. 
• 
  Matthew 21: The Kingdom Transfer from Israel to the Church 18.05.2026 1h 8min

  In this profound exploration of Matthew 21:40-46, Tony Arsenal and Jesse Schwamb unpack the Parable of the Wicked Tenants and its devastating indictment of Israel's religious leadership. The hosts navigate the complex theological terrain of kingdom transfer, covenant faithfulness, and the identity of God's people across redemptive history. With careful attention to the text's original context and its implications for the church today, they examine how Christ presents himself as the rejected cornerstone—the one upon whom people either fall in repentance or are crushed in judgment. This episode offers rich insights into supersessionism, the remnant theology of Romans 11, and the practical call for Christians to examine whether they're submitting to Christ as the true cornerstone or attempting to usurp his rightful place. Key Takeaways The Self-Condemning Verdict: The chief priests and Pharisees unknowingly pronounce judgment upon themselves when they declare the wicked tenants deserve destruction, demonstrating how the natural conscience can discern God's justice even when blind to personal complicity. Kingdom Transfer as Covenant Transition: The "taking away" of the kingdom represents not the abandonment of God's elect remnant but the historical-redemptive transition from the typological Old Covenant administration to the New Covenant church gathered from all nations. The Cornerstone's Double Judgment: Christ as the cornerstone presents two modes of encounter—those who fall upon him in repentance are broken but healed; those upon whom he falls in final judgment are ground to powder with no remedy. Visible vs. Invisible Church Distinction: The visible identification of God's people shifted from the geopolitical nation of Israel to the universal church, while the invisible elect have always been saved by grace through faith in the coming Messiah. Fear of Man vs. Fear of God: The Pharisees' restraint from seizing Jesus due to fear of the crowds (rather than fear of God) exemplifies how the wicked are dominated by human opinion rather than divine accountability. Infant Baptism and Covenant Community: The joyful inclusion of children in the visible covenant community through baptism reflects God's gracious promise sealed to those who contribute nothing to their own covenant status. Fruit-Bearing as Evidence: The "new tenants" are characterized not by works-righteousness but by evidential fruit—the genuine works that flow from "true and lively faith" worked by the Holy Spirit. Key Concepts The Irony of Self-Condemnation The theological and pastoral power of this parable reaches its climax when the religious leaders, failing to perceive themselves as the wicked tenants in Jesus's story, pronounce harsh judgment upon the hypothetical villains: "He will bring those wretches to a wretched end." This moment mirrors Nathan's confrontation of David after the Bathsheba affair, yet with a tragic difference—these leaders never experience David's repentance. Calvin observes that the natural conscience, even when blind to personal guilt, retains an "hidden impulse to identify with justice." The Pharisees demonstrate total depravity in high definition: they possess enough moral clarity to recognize egregious covenant-breaking in the abstract, yet remain entirely blind to their own embodiment of that very wickedness. This irony serves as both judgment and warning—we all possess an uncanny ability to see sin clearly everywhere except in the mirror. Kingdom Transfer: Covenant Continuity and Discontinuity The phrase "the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing its fruit" requires careful theological handling to avoid both replacement theology (in its pejorative sense) and dispensational fragmentation. The Reformed understanding maintains covenant continuity: there has always been one people of God, defined not ethnically but by faith in the Messiah. What changes is the visible administration of the covenant. Under the Old Covenant, the visible church was largely coterminous with ethnic Israel—a geopolitical reality with boundaries, a zip code, and national identity. Under the New Covenant, the visible church explodes these ethnic and geographic boundaries, fulfilling God's promise to Abraham that "in your seed all nations will be blessed." This is not Plan B; it's the eschatological unveiling of what was always intended. The "breaking off of natural branches" (Romans 11) refers to covenant unfaithfulness resulting in exclusion from visible covenant privileges, while the faithful Jewish remnant—the apostles, early believers, and the ongoing elect from Israel—remain fully incorporated into the church. The vineyard hasn't been abandoned; it's been opened to "other tenants" who will render the proper fruit: Gentiles grafted in alongside believing Jews into the one olive tree of God's redemptive purposes. The Cornerstone: Salvation or Destruction Christ's invocation of Psalm 118:22—"the stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone"—followed by his dual judgment ("whoever falls on this stone will be broken...on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust") presents two exhaustive options for relating to Jesus. The cornerstone in ancient construction was the foundational stone by which all other stones found their proper alignment and orientation. To fall upon this stone willingly—in repentance, faith, and self-abandonment—is painful. It shatters pride, self-righteousness, and autonomy. But this breaking leads to healing, to being properly "squared" and aligned with reality as God has constructed it. The alternative is catastrophic: to have the cornerstone fall upon you in final eschatological judgment is to experience irreversible, total destruction—being "ground to powder" with no possibility of remedy. The practical application is urgent: we must examine ourselves continually to ensure we're not attempting to be our own cornerstone, measuring righteousness by our own standards, aligning the universe to ourselves rather than submitting to Christ as the measure of all things. Memorable Quotes "There's never a time where that righteousness is removed or unapplied, but we are constantly faced with a choice as to whether we want to be the kind of people who render our fruit unto the Lord, as the faithful tenants when the unfaithful tenants are replaced. Or do we wanna be the people that reap wicked fruit and keep for ourselves?" — Tony Arsenal "The vineyard of God is still let out, the fruit is still demanded, the cornerstone is still laid. Blessed are they who receive him—and also get those babies into church." — Jesse Schwamb "This is not a wall you're gonna run through. Like you're gonna smash into this wall and it's gonna crush you. And if you are not properly assigning the cornerstone its place... the whole thing is gonna crush you." — Tony Arsenal Full Episode Transcript [00:01:05] Jesse Schwamb: Welcome to episode 492 of The Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  [00:01:14] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.  [00:01:18] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother.  [00:01:19] Parable Recap [00:01:19] Jesse Schwamb: Well, the time has finally come for us to close out our discussion in Matthew 21. This is the Parable of the Vine growers, and everybody should just go back and list everything we said so far, but I think here's how we could sum it up. Jesus's authority gets challenged and he sets a trap so beautiful that we should put it into a museum. He tells basically the religious bigwigs, this whole story where tenants speed up servants, they kill the air. They generally behave like it's an HOA literally run by the devil. And then he asks them this question, so what should the owner of the vineyard do And the chief priest. Chest puffed up. Basically shout out the answers to their own indictment. Smoke 'em. Give the vineyard to somebody who isn't garbage. Listen fellas, you just preached your own funeral. So in this we get to see this total depravity in 4K. Sovereign grace skips the credential gatekeepers and it lands on the tax collectors and the gentiles. They elect the vineyard, the self-righteous, get the rock. And we're gonna close out what all of that means, including probably not a small amount of talk about the kingdom being transferred, whatever that means, and maybe a little engrafting. Aah, Romans 11 style. It's all there for us. And that is what is coming up. [00:02:34] Affirmations Setup [00:02:34] Jesse Schwamb: Of course before we can do any of that, we can't even get there. Tony, before we do affirmations, denials, you and I both know it's our contractual obligation. It's what the people want all over the world. If we skip this, there will be some kind of riot revolt. So we gotta start there. Let's not get too excited yet. So I'm curious as always, are you affirming with something or you not against something for this episode?  [00:02:58] Tony Arsenal: I am, I'm affirming, uh, this is gonna be like people are gonna grow and roll their eyes a little bit.  [00:03:04] Infant Baptism Joy [00:03:04] Tony Arsenal: I'm affirming infant baptism today. We had a lovely infant baptism at church, um, and a couple recently had a child. Um, there's been, this was a kind of a particularly, um, poignant baptism. Um, the, the mother was in the hospital for several weeks before the baby was born, um, with some medical challenges, so was in. In the hospital. In the hospital for like, I want to say probably four weeks, which is a long time. Um, they have several other children, which makes it even harder. Um, and then, uh, then the baby was in the hospital for quite some time. He came a little early and then had some other issues. Um, and so this family was out of church for quite some time dealing with these health issues, and we, we all miss them very much. So it was a very sweet moment. Um, and it's just a, a good reminder, right? And, and the way our church does it is, you know, the pastor, the family comes up, they do vows, they do the baptism, but he calls all the children forward and the children come and sit, uh, right in the front row and they watch this all happen. Um. Which is, is very sweet. And you know, I, I went up there with Augie, and Augie was sitting on my lap and he was very, he was like super locked into this, this whole thing, which is, uh, which was nice to see. So I'm affirming infant baptism. It's a beautiful, beautiful picture of the gospel. Um, it's, it's God's promise being sealed to someone who contributes nothing to, um, to that promise contributes nothing to, uh, their own, um, position in the church or status in the church. They contribute nothing. Um, in most cases they're not even aware of what's going on. So I know not all of our listeners are, uh, are covenant infant Baptists, uh, type people. Um, so yes, I get it. You disagree, but there is something just sweet and beautiful, uh, even I think even for people who aren't quite sold on infant baptism. Um, and I think even sometimes for people who are kind of opposed to infant baptism, I think we've commented in the PA past that there's kind of this impulse that I think all Christian parents have that their children should be. Treated in a certain way that's different than how a non-Christian family treats their children. Right. Um, so there is kind of this instinct that the, there's, whether it's a formal status or just sort of a, a way of thinking about things, there is this impulse that the children of believers are somehow set apart in different, and of course, the, the Presbyterian Covenant Baptist, um, position would, would formalize that through the rite of baptism, uh, at least in part. So I'm affirming infant baptism, both theologically, but also just experimentally today. Like it was just, it was just a balm to my soul to see this, um. And like I said, the congregation has been praying for a long time for the health, uh, and the, the welfare of this family, um, and been, you know, doing meal trains and all the stuff that churches do. But it was, it was a very sweet moment, um, to see the pastor scoop this little baby up in his arms and be able to sort of introduce him to the church as the newest covenant member of the congregation. Uh, it was just a very nice moment. [00:05:59] Baptism Dedication Common Ground [00:05:59] Jesse Schwamb: I think you're right. We can all agree that there's something really beautiful about God growing his church, at least the visible church, through just the multiplicative effect of. People having children, there's something beautiful about that, and then welcoming them in an official way into your congregation, into your midst. Interestingly, in my church, there was a baby dedication today and I was also equally moved though like I would say the promises that were invoked during that time, the equipment's made are very different than what you might hear during kind of pedo infant baptism. You're right in that the spirit of this that is like a representation kind of bringing forward of the child to say he or she is part of us and we're making a commitment to raise them in admonition of the Lord is a really lovely thing. It's like a public recognition that God is providing a manifest blessing in our midst, and that he is growing and working out his church and he's doing it by just bringing new people into it who are being, who are the subjects of procreation. Creation itself, but procreation and how can you not be like, just excited about that. And, and also a little bit like it's also, and I'm not trying to denigrate any practice here, but also just on the face also super adorable. Like when you, when you see a pastor scoop up, like you said, a little child, whether that's to pray with them and dedication or to baptize them. Either way, it's super just like lovely and just pulls in your heartstrings. Yeah. In like this very spiritual way, not just in kind of an emotional kind of way.  [00:07:26] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I don't, I think, um, when I think back, you know, Augie's, obviously you know this, but Augie was dedicated, um, Addie was not. Um, but when I think back to the vows we took, when we dedicated Augie, there are some differences, but there's also a lot that's not different like the sure close to like, raise up your child in the church and to like, pray for them and set a good example. And then, and then the sort of reciprocal vows that the congregation typically takes, that the congregation will do what they can to support the family as they, they raise this child and the Lord. Um, you know, even in, even in a lot of contexts, like in the Presbyterian church, I'm in like prayers that this, this child would come to know Jesus and would, would come to confess the faith for themselves and become a full, you know, full communicate member of the church. Like, those things are all present. So as much as I think, um. As much as I wanna acknowledge that infant baptism or, or covenant, I, I say covenant baptism versus, um, sort of like baptist theology writ, large credo Baptist theology, which is covenantal, but differently covenantal in most cases. Right. Um, even though that is a dividing line, and I think like it's a real dividing line. There's a real division that exists and that there's good theological historical reasons why those divisions exist. There still is so much that is the same. Um, in terms of how Baptists and, and Presbyterians or however formed, you know, PR Christians, um, re reflect on and think about their children. There's some differences, but in terms of like. We all want our children to come to know Jesus. We all want their first memory to be worshiping in the church and loving the Lord. We, we don't want them to ever remember a time where the name of Christ was not on their lips as their savior. Um, all those things are the same and even the, the way we promise before God and, and primarily before God, but before others, even the way we promise to nourish them in, in right doctrine and nourish them in good teaching and bring them into the church and, and set a faithful example. All of those things are the same. So I I I, I never want to diminish the fact that there are differences 'cause there are real differences and there are important differences. But I also think we often sort of like. I think because we've talked about this before, like Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians are so close that we have to bicker over the things that are different. It's like you're, it's like when you fight with your brother on whose side of the room it's on. Like you're so close that you have to find the little things to really bicker about and then you really, really bicker about them. And I think that kind of like describes the, the Presbyterian Baptist divide in a lot of ways. I know there's a lot of people that would say like, Lutherans are closer to Presbyterians and those people are just, I dunno, they're just wrong. Um, on, on, maybe on baptism, they're, they're not wrong. But in terms of general theological principles, like, you know, Westminster Confession, London Baptists, confession, like, it, it's 95% the same content. Sure. Um, and 95% like the same confession, not just the same like words, but the same meaning of the words. And, um, so yeah. Anyway, that's my affirmation. Infant baptism. It was a joy. I was happy to see it. Um, uh, we have a ton of little, little babies in the, the church. It's funny 'cause another, another, um. A couple announced today that they were expecting, and we've, we've had basically pregnant women in the church for, you know, obviously like at least nine months if someone is still pregnant. But like we've had, we've had this like rotation of, of women delivering babies for like, at least, probably, at least 16, 18 months of, of constantly having people who are, are expecting, which is really a great joy to see. So I, I love it. I love the church. I love the Presbyterian church. Um, and this was just another great example of, of the beauty of, uh, a robust confessionalism and a robust presbyterianism. [00:11:08] Jesse Schwamb: The way in which you said that made it sound like you're about to make like a grand historical statement. Like, we've had pregnant people in the church since the first century.  [00:11:18] Tony Arsenal: Well, I mean that's probably true, but  [00:11:19] Jesse Schwamb: yeah, it definitely  [00:11:20] Tony Arsenal: true. Not, not our church. Our church has only been around, our particular church has only been around for like 10 years, so I'm sure there have been times during that period where there were not pregnant people  [00:11:29] Jesse Schwamb: pregnant. It just sounded like we were going all the way back as if like to, again emphasize and maybe this isn't, this is as fair statement, like how faithful God has been like from the beginning. There's always been. Pregnant lady Church. Look, look at how faithful God is.  [00:11:42] Mic Grabbing Babies [00:11:42] Jesse Schwamb: And, and this is true, I like to play this game when there is a baby dedication. I'm not sure what the sound system is like in your church, but often our, our pastors wear like the tiny little like Backstreet Boys style. It's probably outdated reference, but microphone that comes over the ear and to the mouth and it's very discreet. But the game I like to play is like once, once he takes the child for a time of dedication or specifically prayer, the, the goal is to see like how long before that baby goes for the mic. Because as soon as like a baby sees a mic right there, it's like, oh yeah, this is the best thing that's happened to me in my tiny little life.  [00:12:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, it's like an angler fish is really what it is. Yes. It's like that glowing bulb that just sits in front of its face and it's, the baby's just gotta grab it. [00:12:27] Jesse Schwamb: It's just too tempting. It's just too tempting. And I, and I love, you can tell like our pastors are really adept at being able to keep the prayer going and like discreetly maneuver the child, keep the child happy. It's, it's really an amazing thing. So altogether, I'm totally with you on so many levels. It's so good to see that happen in the church. And I'm with you on that. We gotta take joy in that For sure.  [00:12:48] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Jesse, what do you got for us tonight?  [00:12:50] Book Breath Pick [00:12:50] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, something that's entirely unlike everything you just said. Certainly. Well, maybe, I guess there is a large spiritual component to this, but it's, I would say, for me, totally unexpected book recommendation and I came across this 'cause it was recommended to me and a while back, the keen or the listener who's been with us for a really long time, or a member that we talked about the book or why we sleep, this book became for me, like the equivalent of that in a totally different kind of topic or genre. It's called breath. The New Signs of a Lost Art by James Nestor and it explores how the way that humans breathe profoundly affects our health, our performance, our longevity. It's a book that is filled with both science and pseudoscience, which the author is really good at distinguishing and calling you to think about those things. But it's really totally changed how I understand like this little pattern in Habits of breathing. And it's a really interesting book of course. Like he draws from a lot of like religious influences, including of course the Judeo-Christian one. And I think that it even drew me back to understanding how God created us. And he did in a very specific way that text's giving some great description to the breadth that he gives us and how he gives us that breath. So if you're looking, I guess, for a little bit of a read, so that might surprise you about something that you might thought was automatic and simple in life and also that might. Be able to bring you some recommendations on how to better your health. Again, we're not doctors, but we are routinely considered among the top 50 healthcare podcasts. Then I would say this would be an interesting book for you to check out.  [00:14:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. I haven't read it, but it's been recommended to me and one of the, one of the takeaways, actually, I think it might have been my doctor, my my PCP who mentioned this to me is like, if you wanna improve your health drastically, like just make it a practice of breathing through your nose. Yes. Like something that simple and straightforward has pretty significant health impacts of like. Like the way that your brain processes breath when it comes through your nose, the way that like, there's more filtering that happens with breath, so the air that gets to your lungs is cleaner. There's just a lot of, um, I haven't read it. I've, I think I actually have it somewhere, but I have not read it yet. Um, I, I should, I should take a look at it. I, I've heard good things about it.  [00:15:01] Jesse Schwamb: At the very least, if you're a Christian, it'll cause you to marvel again. That's how beautifully complex God has made the human body and how it seems entirely impossible that anyone could even logically reasonably conclude that somehow we are just time plus matter, plus chance, and that all these things got worked out. I don't wanna spoil some of the punchline. A part of the book is about this. Breathe through your nose, which you might think was just kind of an innocuous decision. Breathe through your nose, breathe your mouth. How, how different could it be? They actually do an experiment where they plug their noses, the author and somebody else for, uh, several, like 10 days straight. And do all these these things under medical supervision to see what the impact is. And I'll leave you to read it so you can hear that. There's also something fascinating, absolutely fascinating about carbon dioxide and a study that's done where they actually have people inhale a little bit of carbon dioxide and what it does to the body. In other words, like the system that God has put into play to ensure that the body gets the kind of right amount of oxygen that it needs and how it functions when it's given the warning side of carbon dioxide, even when. Your lung capacity and your oxygen, your blood doesn't change. There's a fascinating section on that. So I didn't expect to be this interested in the book and generally I take a little time before I recommend a book. I finished this a couple weeks ago and I'm still thinking about it. So, and I'm trying to put some things into practice, including I try to do some running and for the longest time I just thought, well, when you run, like even at any like moderate speed, like you have to breathe through your mouth, this book challenges some of that. So lo and behold, I went out and started to try just a little bit to see if I could just breathe through my nose. It turns out it's totally possible, like all this time I just thought that was impossible, like God didn't make us that way, and it's actually improving how I feel when I run and the running that I'm able to do. So I am surprised, I, I'm shocked by all this, and it's just as simple as understanding breath. Who would've guessed.  [00:16:56] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. I mean, I've heard it's a great book. I, I, I. It never ceases to amaze that the, the more we look at the human body, the more we look at God's creation, the more we see the fingerprints of our creators. So not, not  [00:17:07] Jesse Schwamb: right.  [00:17:07] Tony Arsenal: Sounds like a great book. I can't recommend it from personal experience, uh, although I've heard very good things.  [00:17:12] Reading Matthew 21 [00:17:12] Tony Arsenal: So, Jesse, I think we should probably just get into it because this is now week three of, uh, one week episode and, uh, we want to wanna dig in and we wanna wrap it up so we can move on to the next best thing out there, which is of course, the parables of Christ. [00:17:26] Jesse Schwamb: Let's get some. So I'm gonna read for us starting in verse 40 because if you've been tracking then you've already been with us through the first part of this parable, and it's notoriously or variously called parable the vine growers, or I kinda like the husband men, just because that's fun to say, and you don't get to drop husband men like very often. But vine dressers, vine growers, vine workers, it's all the same. But here's starting in verse 40. This is after Jesus has already explained the parable. He set it up for them and he's gonna bring for the indictment. So Jesus says, and therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to these vine growers? They said to him, he will bring those wretches to a wretched end and he will rent out the vineyard to other vine growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons. Jesus said to them, did you never read in the scriptures the stone, which the builders rejected? This has become the chief cornerstone. This came about from the Lord in his, marvelous in our eyes. Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruit of it. And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust. And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they understood that he was speaking about them. And although they were seeking to seize him, they feared the crowds because they were guarding him to be a prophet.  [00:18:48] Irony Blind Leaders [00:18:48] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, that, that last little section here is just such, it's like dripping with such irony,  [00:18:53] Jesse Schwamb: so good  [00:18:54] Tony Arsenal: that like they, they are so blinded by their own, um, I dunno, ambition isn't, maybe isn't even the right word, but something in that, that neighborhood, they're so blinded by their desire to. Maintain their own status quo, their own uh, their own status. That they fear the crowds because the crowds hold them to be a prophet,  [00:19:15] Jesse Schwamb: right?  [00:19:16] Tony Arsenal: When in reality, like there is a prophet in their midst and much more than a prophet, uh, and they can't see it because of their own blindness. So I'm stoked to get into it. This is such, like we said, this is such a, like on the nose, paril, it's crazy. This is so much like, you know, Nathan's, you are the man kind of parable. Like yes, that's right, except there never is a, you are the man moment for them. They never get it, which is. Stunning. Like I, I, it just sort of is like, I don't even know what to make of that. [00:19:41] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. There is like a wild blindness. I've been thinking about that a lot in our past conversations, but it culminates here. These chief priests and elders, I would say strangely, but I think that this is probably true of all of us, and maybe especially me, perhaps not yet, like perceiving themselves to be the vine growers here in view, they render this verdict of severe justice. It seems like you, you wanna say to them? Like, guys, guys, pull up, hold up a second. Yeah. Take a step back before you overreact here, because you're about to condemn yourselves and in the Greek here, this expression like, miserably destroy these wicked men. Or it gets like this double wretched in our translations. Mostly he will bring those wretches to a wretched end. It's this rhetorical intensification. It's incredible. And I, I think there's at least like two truths here. That come to my mind. One is, we've talked about before, but is in line with what you're saying, that the natural conscience, when not even aware of its own complicity, can still discern the justice of God's judgments. So here are these men who are so prone almost, I think what Calvin says elsewhere, like that we have this hidden impulse to identify with justice. Even when we can't see that we are the ones perpetrating something of injustice, still we can't help but cry out. We can't even help but identify it. And here they. Accurately identify it. And even though they're putting themselves exactly in the cross here, they cannot help but basically cry out that how egregious this behavior is of these vine growers that Jesus has basically, you know, created in this hypothetical environment, even still there, they're filled with rage and the rage gets turned on them. So the Pharisees here, of course, function as this unwitting witness to the righteousness of God's wrath against covenant breakers, even though they, they don't see it.  [00:21:29] Kingdom Transfer Talk [00:21:29] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, the second thing I think that comes to my mind, and maybe this is like more to the point, is that. The verse foreshadows this transfer of the kingdom from the Jewish nation to a new people that would bring forth its fruits, which I realize if I bring that up right now, that we've just committed to like six episodes just on that topic probably. But yeah, but like, we're gonna have to come to it because there's so much here. And the phrase of this, like, let out his vineyard unto other vine growers or husbandman, it does to me like anticipate this calling of the Gentiles and the formation of the Christian Church and in, in this way. It's not to me. The abandonment of the elect, remnant of Israel, but it is like the breaking off of the natural branches and then this engrafting of the wild olive shoots that come through like Allah, Romans 11. So it's, it's not like from one nation to another simply, but from like the carnal seed to a spiritual seed gathered out of all the nations, that that's wild. Right? I, I think that's all in view here. And it's like a kind of a crazy thing to say. It's certainly like a wild thing to say, no pun intended. And I imagine like, unexpected thing to say.  [00:22:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:22:40] Supersessionism Clarified [00:22:40] Tony Arsenal: Let's think about that a little bit because I think too, there's, there's almost an element of, um. Man, I'm gonna get a lot of flack for saying this. You're, there's almost like a legitimate replacement theology here, right? Like replacement theology. I got covenant theology, you know, reformed, um, reformed theology often gets slandered as, you know, supersessionism or replacement theology, uh, with this idea that like, it's, it's interest. Uh, you have to have dispensational presuppositions for that phrase to even make sense because like the reformed paradigm is that there is one people of God full stop. And yes, like the identity of the one people of God seems to sort of like morph from the Jewish national people to now like Jews and Gentiles and actually predominantly Gentiles in the scope of like the whole history of the church. But what I mean by this is like, there's a visible church in the Old Testament, in the old, under the old Covenant, and the visible church under the old covenant is the national people of, of Israel. Right. By and large. Right. Um, and there are, there are sort of like Gentile, um, Clingons, not like the Star Trek people, but like gentile, like attachments to that throughout the history of, of Old Testament, um, theology. Um. That visible, that visible identification of this is the people of God being the Jewish people. Uh, these are the people that are the vineyard, the, they're the, the owner or the tenants of the vineyard or the, the visible Jewish people of the geopolitical nation of Israel under the old covenant that does sort of like get superseded by the church in the church age, in the new covenant,  right?  [00:24:24] Tony Arsenal: But where, where Supersessionism or the accusation of Supersessionism goes wrong is that there is this distinction between the visible and invisible church. And that distinction is what prevents us from being like, sort of like true replacement theologians in the way that the, the dispensationalist wanna paint us. So I, I think you're right that there is a lot to say here about the fact that, um, and, and this is where it gets, um. We have to be careful systematically. Right. God, God doesn't have to pivot. He doesn't have like a plan B. It's not like the Gentiles are the plan B, but there is a sense in almost in which the way that this is presented, the way that it appears in the scriptures is actually, yeah, there is almost like this plan B, like there is the geopolitical ethnic people of, of Israel, the Jewish people under the old covenant. And, and they don't do what they're supposed to do. They don't follow the terms of their covenant. They don't accept the kingdom that is bequeathed to them under the terms of the old covenant. And they, they reject that kingdom because of a disobedience. And, and I think what Christ here is narrowing in on is it's not just disobedience, right? It's not sort of like, um, accidental ancillary disobedience. It's not generalized disobedience. It is this sort of like usurpation of God's rightful status as the ruler and king of the nation. That's right. The the people, the, the Pharisees. And the chief priests and the scribes and the Sadducees, they want to be the rulers of the nation. They want to, they, they seem to wanna take the place of God, at least as far as Christ is presenting it. In this, they wanna usurp the kingdom. They want to take the heirs, uh, rightful inheritance, and they want to claim it for themselves. That is not a generalized disobedience, it's a special t type of covenant unfaithfulness that causes God to causes and kind of air quotes that causes God to hand over the kingdom to another people. Right. Partially, I think, uh, we don't need to get into Romans, the Romans 11 stuff, but partially I think because that's actually the way that he's going to ultimately save the Jewish people, right, is by sort of making, making them jealous of the Gentiles. Like there's a, there's a real element of that, that the salvation of the Gentiles is actually for, in some sense is for or unto the salvation of the Jewish people or the, the faithful Jewish remnant that's all here. And, and you can't really get past that in this parable. Um, this is why I think a, a lot of dispensationalist, um, uh, some of the classic dispensational sources would actually see like this, this is not for the Jewish church. This, this is for the Gentiles. This is actually part of the parentheses, um. You know, and, and again, dispensationalist divide all that stuff up differently, but this is a really interesting section for us to talk about that we can't, we can't just gloss over that. [00:27:11] Jesse Schwamb: I certainly don't mean to imply that it's wild because it's unexpected. I think it's wild because interestingly, the Pharisees, the teachers here, they challenge Jesus authority and his response to that is to challenge their covenant faithfulness.  [00:27:24] Tony Arsenal: Right?  [00:27:25] Jesse Schwamb: So it's not just if he turns it around, he uses this opportunity to explain what's going to happen to them as those who are, like you said, were supposed to be representative. And I think critically like the qualifying phrase. That that's using the text here, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. That's like really important because these new vine growers are characterized by their fruitfulness. So this is not like a doctrine of works righteousness, but it's evidential fruit. And that's why, and I had to look this up and the Westminster Confession confession, chapter 16, good works are quote the fruits and evidences of true and lively faith, which I love. I was trying to find that language true and lively faith. So the visible church under that new administration is identified by the fruits of repentance, faith, and obedience worked out by the Holy Spirit. Again, I think that's all that is in view here, that that's a lot to say. But you know, famously, like you've kind of intimated, when we go back to the Old Testament, even we find when the Israelites leave triumphantly from Egypt, that they're accompanied by those outside of Israel. We find that other characters like Grh who continually want to identify with a Yahweh whom God is saving and drawing onto himself and here is kind. Him, Jesus, at least representing as the son of God. That kind of cli climactic view. Speaking from the prophet register again saying, this is what I was saying to Abraham. I said, like from your seed, all these nations in this spiritual sense will be gathered out. So there'll be a single nation as it were in Christ. And even now, I'm telling you, I'm breaking down those boundaries. But I think to your point, importantly Tony, in part because you have failed in the covenant promises and you who were to represent and to heed and to lead, have fallen down. And so now you're gonna trip over this stone and it's going to crush you. And as a result of that, the vine, the vine growers will be, or the vineyard itself will be turned over to those who bear this true and lively fruit.  [00:29:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:29:23] Israel Failure Remnant [00:29:23] Tony Arsenal: There's an interesting, um. There's an interesting dynamic here that actually strikes me as kind of similar. It's a little bit more opaque, but similar to, uh, like Joseph in, uh, in Egypt, right when his brothers come and he says, you meant this for evil, but God meant it for good. Mm-hmm. There's a, there's an element of here, we've talked about the parables. That's sort of like systematic theology in story form. Um, there's a reality here that it's both true, that God always intended for the kingdom to be expansive and, and to expand beyond the nation of Israel. To be this universal, global lowercase c Catholic, universal church universal in the sense that it's not bound by any particular nation, by any particular geopolitical reality. Um. That's true, but it's also true that the reason, uh, on a sort of like horizontal level that that's true is that Israel failed. Right? It so God always intended for Israel to fail, yet Israel is responsible for the fact that they failed. Yes, that's right. Um, and, and, and again, we, we, we sort of commented on this before, like there are some in our broader reformed circles that turn this into a sort of antisemitism, like a sort of hatred for the Jewish people. And I don't think, I don't think that there's any warrant in scripture for that. In fact, I think scripture speaks strongly against that. Is that, um. Not necessarily because there's any particular unique special affection that God has for Israel, like, like the modern Jewish people, but, but that, like racism in general is prohibited by the Bible. But I think where we do need to be clear though, is that there is a real failure. It's a true, genuine failure on the part of the first century Jewish. Leaders and people, um, with a faithful remnant. Right? There was, um, we're, we're getting, you know, we're in the springtime and we've already had, uh, we've already had discussions about this. We've already done Easter, but like there is always conversations around Palm Sunday of like, are the crowds that are following Jesus into, into town screaming, you know, yelling, Hosanna? Is that the same crowds that are yelling crucify him a couple days later? Um, I tend to think like, no, like actually, like the people who are saying crucified, crucify Christ are probably like the Jews who live in Jerusalem or like the, primarily the religious leaders. There's a whole host of Jewish believers and kind of the hoy pallo, the, the people out in the country that absolutely follow Jesus. Like they follow him as the Messiah. They, they confess him in many cases. They convince him to be, um, they confess him to be God, to to be the savior, to be the, the figure from Daniel seven, the son of man. Um. There's a reality in which the Jewish remnant absolutely recognize Christ and they persist in the church, right? The earliest Christians were all Jews, and you know, there was a few Gentiles along the way, you know, and maybe not even Gentiles like Samaritans. I don't even know if you would call them gentiles. They're kind of this midway point, but in Jewish gentil. But there are people throughout Christ's ministry, right? Cornelius or not Cornelius, the Centurion recognizes that this is the son of God. Like there are people, the s Phoenician woman, there are people who are not part of Israel proper, who even in the, in the midst of Christ's ministry are recognizing him as God and as Messiah and as the savior of the world. But, but by and large, the earliest Christian movement was Jewish people. It was the faithful remnant of, of Israel who recognized that their Messiah had come. That is true. And at the same time. The, probably the majority, and especially the rulers and the leaders of the Israel, you know, the Jewish faith in the first century absolutely rejected him. And this is what I, this is what I think is wild, is I think sometimes we think that, um, the prophecies and the understanding of Christ and what the messiah, who the Messiah was to be and what to expect, we think of those as like super obscured and super hidden until Christ comes and then all of a sudden they're really obvious. Christ doesn't seem to treat them that way. Right? Right. He tells this parable and they rightly identify that, and this is a, this is such a thinly veiled parable. Like this is like, you killed the prophets. You're going to kill me. And there's going to be consequences. Like he practically says that outright. Um. He treats that as like they should obviously know this, right? The, have you never read in the scriptures, the stone, the builder rejected has become the cornerstone, right? This was the lord's doing. It is, and it is marvelous in their eyes that have you never read?  [00:34:06] Decree in Rejection [00:34:06] Tony Arsenal: That is a, that's a rhetorical question with the implied answer of, of course, you've read exactly like he's not, he's not teaching them something that he anticipated is new to them. He maybe is teaching them something that he anticipated they maybe you didn't recognize. But actually I think probably like, uh, there probably were many among them that were like, oh yeah, we are doing this. But then almost like we're powerless to stop themselves from moving forward in that.  [00:34:32] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:34:32] Tony Arsenal: Sort of like wicked plan. [00:34:34] Jesse Schwamb: Right. Yeah. And I think we could extend that as well to say that this rejection of Christ by this Jewish leadership, which of course was a incredible failure, like you're saying, it wasn't an accident, it wasn't an unforeseen tragedy. So just like interestingly in Acts four in his sermon where Peter quotes from the same Old Testament passage about Christ being the cornerstone, you know, it was prophesied long before. And so the doctrine of God's eternal decree, I think finds v vivid illustration even here. This is all the Lord's doing. Yeah. And even the wicked rejection of the Messiah is serving this purpose, this sovereign purpose of God's great exaltation. And so it's fascinating, and we should marvel at the fact that, again, like God means what he says when he says like He uses what is weak to overcome that which is strong, or to embarrass the strong, he uses that which seems foolish. To make the wise themselves, the ones who are actually foolish in the same way.  [00:35:29] Cornerstone Unites Church [00:35:29] Jesse Schwamb: This very stone, which men in their malice cast aside on that day. God is in his wisdom setting as this chief cornerstone. And I love like that idea of this phrase, this head of the corner denoting that amazing preeminence of Christ, that Christ is not merely included in the building of the new Covenant church. He is its chief and constituent stone that joining together both like the Jew and the Gentile, finally into one structure. And that's really, I think to your point, that's the great mystery of the hidden ages from the past. That that's the thing which Christ is bringing to like this grand display, like out on the stage in the open, in front of everybody. He's drawing it up, he's calling it to account. And so in that way, the same Jesus that was rejected by men is in God's account of inestimable value. And that should be like, I think, familiar to most of us because like there a form tradition has always insisted that. The true theology always issues in doxology and the cross and exaltation of Christ are not merely these facts, which we give these intellectual ascent, but we, we confess them as mysteries which provoke us to adoration of who God is. It's the excellency of Christ expounding at length, like the wondrous conjunction of Christ's humiliation and his exaltation, which finds its pattern here, rejected by men, glorified by God.  [00:36:50] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:36:52] Works Covenant Failures [00:36:52] Tony Arsenal: And, and this is, um, we, we commented in our first, uh, episode on this par ball. This is not isolated to just the rulers of Israel at the time of Christ, right? This is in reality, kind of like a reflection of every failure of the covenant of works. In some sense, every failure to hold the covenant of works boils down to an attempt to make oneself, God. Right. This was Adam's failure in the garden. Um, Eve, Eve was the first person to eat the fruit, but Adam, Adam was responsible for that and he, he also ate the fruit and they, they did so in part because they thought it was useful to make them like God and, and in an illegitimate fashion. And they knew it was an illegitimate fashion. It's not as though Adam and Eve suddenly were like, maybe we can eat the fruit. Maybe like we actually are fine to do it. Like they knew it was still forbidden. Right. They did it anyways. And the Pharisees here, um, are in a real attempt. Um, they are trying to take the role of Messiah for the people. They're trying to be the savior of the people in sort of shepherding and guiding them into this like. Ultra legalistic Puritan, like puritanical in the worst sense, um, kind of approach to the law. Um, this is the, the story of Old Testament Israel, right? What is the first thing that the Israelites do? Um, at Mount Sinai? The first thing they do is try to fashion gods so that they have a tame God that they can control and that they can actually be God's over. So I think this is really key and, and this is where it becomes practical for us, is that. I think we always are faced with a choice, right? There's, there's obviously those who are Christ, who the son is set free. He's set free indeed, and they will never not be his people. Like you never become not justified. If you were justified, you always forever more are justified. Justified is a final. It's, it's the future judgment of God's people dragged and dropped into the present and applied. It's the righteousness of Christ applied. So there, there's never a time where that righteousness is like removed or unapplied, but we are constantly faced with a choice as to whether we want to be the kind of people who render our fruit unto the Lord, uh, as the faithful, the sort of the implied faithful tenants that are going to be brought forward when the, the unfaithful tenants are replaced. Or do we wanna be the people that reap wicked fruit and keep for ourselves? And I think that's, that's really the thing. Like we're either gonna rep. Fruit of wickedness, or we're gonna reap fruit of righteousness. And the only thing to do with fruit of righteousness is surrender it to the Lord. But we often are faced with that choice, like, are we gonna reap our own wicked fruit and keep it all to ourselves right, uh, to our own detriment? Or are we gonna go ahead and be the faithful tenants that give the Lord what he deserves?  [00:39:46] Kingdom Transfer Explained [00:39:46] Jesse Schwamb: We're seeing so much of the simplicity of God here that like you and I have said so many times before that his loving kindness, his long suffering ness is his righteousness, is his justice, is his wrath. And so I think it's helpful, again, to remind ourselves that we're, we are talking, or he specifically is speaking of the kingdom of God here. And again referring to this visible administration of the covenant of grace, not to the inward and invisible kingdom of saving grace, which as you just said, can never be lost from those who possess it, which by the way is a really important distinctive of reform theology. There are many that would disagree with that statement, and I think really much to their harm in, in disagreement with the scriptures themselves, this one in particular, but it is this external administration, the privileges, the ordinances, the oracles of God. That is being transferred from the Jewish nation as a corporate body to a new and broader people of God. And because I know that sounds very extreme, I did look up Calvin and his commentary on this and let me read what he says because this is interesting. I think even this could possibly mis be misunderstood. But here's Calvin who can say it better than I. He says, quote by these words, he means that God would deprive the Jews of the honor and the privilege of being his peculiar people and would call the Gentiles that out of them he might form a church end quote. And going back to what you said earlier, I'm with you. I, I. I mean, this is not, I think as some have wrongly concluded, like replacement theology in like a wooden sense. I, I see this still as like this historical redemptive transition from the typological administration of the old covenant to the eschatological fulfillment of the new. And the elect remnant of Israel is not cast off, but the national like typological privileges are being transferred to the Catholic church, gathered from all nations. And in that, I really do see this wonderful confluence of God's loving kindness, his, his fidelity to the promises that he's made and his wrath being manifested all at once. And somehow Jesus, of course, in complete perfection, can bring that all to bear in this tiny little story.  [00:41:51] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. And and isn't it just like the master teacher to like, put all of this baked into this? I mean, that's right. We think of this as like a long parable, like I think,  [00:42:02] Jesse Schwamb: right?  [00:42:02] Tony Arsenal: I think like it's, it's amazing how we think of parables as, you know, like this is a short one. A short one is a couple sentences, a long one is like a half a dozen sentences. Like, and of course like Christ is teaching broader than this. He's teaching more than this. Just, this is what's recorded by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. This is what Matthews preserved for us.  [00:42:22] Stone Breaks or Crushes [00:42:22] Tony Arsenal: But you're right, there's so much baked into this little parable and I think, um, there's something to be said about this idea of like. Not only do those who smash against the, the rock, the, the cornerstone, those who smash against the rock, like those who who fall on the rock are broken to pieces, but also the rock falls on others and smashes them to pieces. Right? And, and there's something to be said about the fact that, and I'm not exactly sure how I wanna articulate this, but it's only those who like recognize the proper place of the rock and don't either let it fall on them or don't smash themselves against it. You know, we always joke about like running through a wall. Like this is not a wall you're gonna run through. Like you're gonna smash into this wall and it's gonna crush you. And if you are, if you're not properly assigning the cornerstone it's placed, right? The cornerstone is, is the stone that's placed in the foundation of a building that all the other stones find their orientation and their proper alignment based on. [00:43:26] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:43:26] Tony Arsenal: You might think of this sometimes. I've heard this articulated as like the, the arch stone. I think it's a little bit different than that. Um, but it, the, the idea is the same, right? Like there's a stone in an arch. If you think of like a classic Roman arch, you have these piles of stones until you put the final arch stone in. That, in that stone is what makes the arch stable. Until that point, either side can fall, but if you don't properly set that arch stone where it's supposed to be, then the whole thing is gonna crush you. It's gonna fall down on top of you at some point. I think this is a little different. This is the cornerstone of a, this is more like the cornerstone of a building. This is the stone that the rest of the building, building is oriented against and is aligned with. If you get that wrong, then you have a, you have like a crooked wall, a wall that's not set, that's not straight. It's not stable. What this is saying and what this, this prophecy right from, from Psalm one 10, I think I should probably look it up, but I haven't yet. But this prophecy that Christ is referring to this, this prophetic statement in the Psalms that he's assuming the audience is familiar with, right? I think that's a really important point. Like he's not only assuming that they're familiar with it, there's rhetorical force of kind of like, of course you understand this principle that there is a cornerstone coming. There is something or someone who is coming that all other things will be measured against. And if you're either in alignment with this, with this person who is coming or you're out of alignment with reality, this thing is understood by them. It just is so critical and I think like the, the, a lot of the parables don't have explanations built into them. Some of them do. We've talked about some of them. A lot of them don't, this one does, but it's kind of like a really surprising way to explain it. And there's so much, um, the more that I look at this, the more we talk about it, this really is so similar to David and Nathan, right? Right. When with the, the affair with Bathsheba, he is saying to the Pharisees, look, you're the man. Like, you're the one here. You're the guy. You guys are the wicked tenants that are gonna, you've killed the prophets. Right? Um, I'm losing my, my timeline a little bit, but John the Baptist either had been executed or would be executed shortly at this point, right? So like the, the most recent prophet either was already killed or, or Christ knew of course he was going to be killed. Um, he's saying, look, you guys are the ones that are doing this and you're going to kill me. Right. And this is obviously what the prophecy is, that you think you're going to come against the cornerstone, but in reality you're going to shatter yourself upon me. You think you're gonna come against me, I'm going to crush you. And rather than say, you know, as ba, you know, as David does, where he repents, he, he fasts and he, he refuses to eat. He's, he's in mourning over both the loss of his infant, but, but more so over his own sin, I think is the picture the text gives us. Um, he's mourning trying to uh, sort of like reverse God's decision, but there's a genuine repentance to it, right? That's where we get Psalm 51, like creating, clean me a clean heart, oh God, renew a right spirit in me. There's none of that for the Pharisees, there's none of that for the sadist of the chief priests. They just continue to smash themselves against this rock, not recognizing that it's actually the rock that is crushing them. [00:47:05] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, it's, it's a bit like, I'm gonna speak like a little maybe beyond my depth here, but there's a little bit of like that Nathan, like Strategem, and then this is where I'm outside my own experience. And then a little bit like maybe like WWE the rock in terms of like. If you want some come and get some, right? It's a little of both. And of course the passage ends very tragically, well ends humorously by them, you know, saying that at some point they were like, they understood in these parables, again, this is one of three of the same kind of topic of variety, but that Jesus was referring to them, which is funny. You wanna be like, yeah, it took a, took a long enough, I guess, guys, but you finally got it. But then that last sentence of like, they still sought to kill him. So to your point, even after all of this, there wasn't repentance. And we do get these, I think, two very distinct judgements that are depicted here, which you've already kinda led us into this first, like, whoever shall fall on the stone shall be broken. You know, to me, I think that's invoking this idea that in this life, there we are, we can be brought to brokenness through the gospel and to fall upon Christ. And repentance. And faith is to be broken in self, in pride and self-righteous. It's a breaking that does lead to healing. But this second judgment, you know the one, but on whomever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder, grind him to dust, I mean. Man, think about what a vivid image that is. I mean, that's like the more terrible of the two. That that's like the, yeah. Final Es logical judgment of those who persist in unbelief and it, it admits there's like no remedy. So there are only two ways to relate to Christ. You either fall upon him willingly in faith and repentance, which is painful, but it is saving, you know, to have him fall upon us in judgment is final in damning, and so that's what Christ presents here. [00:48:48] Psalm 118 in Context [00:48:48] Jesse Schwamb: It's, it's both of these things and you're right, it is brilliant that he goes to Psalm one 18 even that as a setup, because as you've kind of already said, I love to think, of course that's, can you manner the tone in which this was said to these scribes and Pharisees? Because of course the, the secondary indictment here is like, listen, you guys who like your great pride is that, you know, the scriptures really well. Have you read this part is familiar to you. Yeah. Can you tell me where that is? So like, we, we should go there just, just quickly. This is Psalm one 18 because I think that here again is, as I'm hearing it in context. There are some verses surrounding this that I think we might be surprised that they come right on the heels of this idea of the stone. So just a couple verses. In Psalm one 18 being in verse 22, the stone, which the builders rejected, has become the chief cornerstone. This is from Yahweh. It is marvelous in our eyes. Here's the verses that we might not recognize. Come right after it. This is the day which Yahweh has made. Let us rejoice and be glad in it. Oh, Yahweh, save. Oh, Yahweh, succeed. Blessed is the one who comes in the name of Yahweh. We have blessed you from the house of Yahweh. Yahweh is God, and he has given us light by the festival sacrifice with corns to the horns of the altar. You are my God, and I give thanks to you. You are my God, and I exalt you. Give thanks to Yahweh for his good, for his loving kindness endures forever. And so this idea that there's rejoicing in which day, I mean, usually we kinda say that it's like, well, it's a beautiful day out. It's the Lord's day. This is the day that Yahweh is like that. That's true. But also here in particular, it is this blessed day of Yahweh giving the stone, which the builders reject and which has become the chief cornerstone. And that stone is some will run headlong into and shipwreck their lives and others will be crushed underneath it. And guess what? This is the day which Yahweh has made and we're gonna rejoice and be glad in that.  [00:50:41] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:50:43] Mark's Angle on Fear [00:50:43] Tony Arsenal: The other thing I think, you know, we. Should, um, maybe not spend any time on, 'cause we're at like, out, like minute 50 of a 60 minute podcast. But just going to, to Mark's version of this parable real quick. Um, starting in verse, uh, this is chapter 12, verse 12. It says, and they were seeking to arrest him, but feared the people for, they perceived that he had told the parable against them. So they left him and went away. And the, the main difference here, the reason I'm reading this is Mark chooses a d. Concerning them. The verb is, or the preposition is Perry. So it's kind of like this idea that he was, he was sort of speaking around them. He was talking about them. Mark uses the, the preposition, proce, which is not, um, not against, in like the same, uh, direct sense. We might use the word against. That would be something like Kada. Um, but he's, he's speaking this parable towards them or to them, um, against them. He's, he's directing the parable at them. And this is, this is, we, we commented on this a little bit in the, the first episode here. Um, he is speaking to the crowds. But he's telling the parable about or against or concerning the Pharisees and the scribes, and they perceive this, right. The, the gospels here don't say that the crowds perceive this. Right. And I think that's key. Like the Pharisees basically look at this and say, uh, we better get this under control because he's talking about us. Right, right. Like, I'm just picturing Paul Washer's. I'm not trying to say Paul Washer is a Pharisee, although some people would probably make that connection. But like I'm, I'm just hearing Paul Washer's voice saying like, I don't know why you're clapping. I'm talking about you. He's speaking to the Pharisees here. And it's interesting because Matthew associates the, the, uh, Pharisees. Cowardice in acting against Christ, uh, because they fear the crowds and because the crowds believe Christ is a parable or is a prophet Mark associates. And again, both of these things are true, right? This is holy scripture. This is inspired, these are not contradictory accounts. This is facets of the same diamond. Mark associates this with, they fear the crowds. Um, because they had taken him. They, they understood that the parable was being spoken against them, right? So there's this element that the Pharisees are not only understanding that the, the parable is about them, they feared them because the crowds believe that Christ is a prophet and that prophet is speaking this parable against them, right? So like they're, they're recognizing full on that it's only a matter of time before the, the general population, the general people that are listening to Christ recognize that he's overturning. Not only the Pharisees, the entire geopolitical nation of Israel, he's overturning the ethnic based reality, the geopolitical based reality, that God's people have a zip code and that zip code is Jerusalem. That zip code is this little si, this little tract of land the size of like Vermont and New Hampshire in the Mediterranean, like off the Mediterranean Sea. He's overturning that. And the, the Pharisees, the educated people, the, the Sadducees, the chief priests, the rulers, they recognize it's only a matter of time before the people understand what Christ is doing. They, they follow him as a prophet and this is what he's prophesying. And rather than, rather than, um. You know, I think of like Nicodemus or Joseph Ram that are like part of this class of people that actually seem to get it rather than go, okay, he's doing it, he's doing the thing. We better get on board. They just continue to smash their heads against this wall.  [00:54:51] Jesse Schwamb: Yes,  [00:54:52] Tony Arsenal: they just continue to bash themselves against the rock of ages and rather than learn, rather than submit to this, they shatter themselves and they crush themselves. [00:55:01] Submitting as Cornerstone [00:55:01] Tony Arsenal: And I guess this is where, I don't know, maybe this is like the Puritan turn in me, like I guess this is where I want to say like, how often are we smashing ourselves against Christ, right? Instead of submitting to him that I think if, if we want to take a, a practical turn here, that's really what we need to look at. Again, no one who is truly justified. No one who is truly. Uh, converted who, who has true faith and trust in Christ. I am not in the business of stealing away the insur, the assurance of Christians. That is not my thing. Assurance is the right and privilege and inheritance of every Christian full stop. Right  [00:55:35] Jesse Schwamb: on.  [00:55:35] Tony Arsenal: Right. It is of the essence of faith. It's just not so of the essence of faith that it can't be shaken. That's what the Westminster Confession teaches, right? But the reality is that we can continue to smash our heads against that rock. We can continue to, to look at the cornerstone and say like, ah, maybe I'm the cornerstone. Maybe I'm the measure of, of righteousness. Maybe I'm the one that measures whether or not God's law applies here. Eh, I don't know. Like Christ seems to say that if you're gonna set yourself up as the cornerstone, if you're gonna try to take the inheritance for your own, that's not gonna go well for you. And even as c, even as Christians who are regenerated by the Holy Spirit and have faith in Christ, and who ultimately will be saved from our own foolishness and folly, ah, we still, that still is not gonna go well for us if we are not gonna be able to submit to, to Christ as the cornerstone and the, the, the stone that aligns all things and makes all, every, all other things straight, all other things, regular, all other things, right? That, that's what the cornerstone does. So this is not only just a parable, but what would happen, uh, or I should say the parable is about what happens when this particular group of people tries to set themselves up as the cornerstone, the application and where Christ takes this application is like, I think it's broader than that. It is applied to this particular people. But when we look at it, we go, well man, I really don't want to be like those Pharisees when, when they do this.  [00:56:59] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:57:00] Fear of Man Exposed [00:57:00] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, practically speaking, I think those concluding verses, they definitely demonstrate again this profound sovereignty of God, at least the doctrine of God's providential restraint of evil. Until this sour was come, no man could lay a hand on Christ, and it was the fear of the people, which was the means by which God preserved his son until they appointed time of his sacrificial death. That's fascinating because the Pharisees were free agents in their wickedness. They were bound by sovereign decree until the father's hour arrived for his own son, and so I would say as well, maybe one of the profound things I've been thinking about that we can draw out of this for a practical application is that it seems to me demonstrated here and elsewhere that the fear of man, rather than the fear of God is shown to dominate. Wicked. That's always the way it is. Yeah. So this idea of not submitting ourselves to Christ, I think one of the ways that we can find that we can move ourselves by God's grace, by the power of the Holy Spirit into increasing levels of submission is to understand where our fear lies. If our fear is in God himself, we're trusting ourselves completely to him, then I think we know that we're more aligned. If we tend to find ourselves fearing man on various ways, which we're gonna be prone to do because we're sinful, I think that is a wake up call to understand that that is what dominates the perspective and the worldview and the purview of the wicked. In the same way. To go back to you bringing up Joseph again, this reminds me of, you know, when Joseph brothers, they go and visit him, they take the green back, and I, I, for some reason, I find this scene funny. I'm sure it's not funny, but they open up the sacks in the head of the sacks, they find all of their money returned, and I, I guess I would be the same way, but instead of like being like, well that is weird. That seems like a really innocent and weird mistake. How do they react? They're like I told you, it's because now what's being paid back to us is because we sold Joseph to slavery. Yeah. Like the wicked always looks over their shoulder. They're always fearful of man. And so the multitudes recognition of Jesus as a prophet while. Inadequate because of, certainly he's more than a prophet, is yet a witness to the testimony of the spirit working through the works in the words of Christ here. But that is not enough. Like we said before, the drawing that Jesus was doing was to the common people who hurt him gladly. It was to the sinners who recognize that he spoke with authority and who are willing to submit themselves because they perhaps were the ones that understood what it meant to be broken, that they needed healing and that they recognized that they were already broken, but that they wanted to come before the rock who could break them wide open, as it were, to do the complete and full restorative healing that only he could provide. And so, you're right, it is like the blessing and the promise and the right of God's children to call out to God in humility for this kind of healing. That only he can do. And by healing really, I mean like the giving of eternal life, the, the true saving of the inner man, that selfish part of ourselves, which wants to rebel just like the Pharisees, which is willing to condemn ourselves with that Nathan, like Strategem, and yet to refuse to see that it is in fact ourselves. Who are we speaking about? It is that kind of Christ and Savior that we need so that we can then get to Romans eight and say there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus because he is the rock of ages, the cleft for me. So I, I agree with you. This is that we've said it before in other ways. This is the one wall you cannot run through. When you come up against this stone, you're not just gonna bounce off. You're gonna be pulverized, and you don't want this stone coming against you and crushing you and grinding you into powder, as it were in that final ESOL judgment. So the call, the clearing call, loved ones, as you've said, Tony, is to examine yourself to see whether or not you are into faith to test and see what you're doing with this one who has been laid as the cornerstone. [01:00:51] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [01:00:53] Wrap Up and Next Parable [01:00:53] Tony Arsenal: Well, I think that's a good place for us to wrap it up. Uh, although we're not really wrapping it up, because next week when we come back in, we're gonna be talking about, uh, the parable of the wedding feast in, uh, chapter 22.  [01:01:07] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [01:01:07] Tony Arsenal: Which, uh, is in many ways the same parable with a slightly different angle. And, and I think this is, this is part of, like, I initially wanted to say, like, this is a, this is a softer version of the parable, but as you were speaking, I was kind of like glancing through it, kind of getting ready to jump in here. And it's not really all that much softer. It's a different angle, right. It's a different perspective on the same basic truth. So th this is just like Christ as the master teacher, right? He doesn't just leave the Pharisees with his one, uh. It's obviously not ambiguous what he's saying, but he gives them no excuse because he tells them the same basic parable three times in a row just to make sure that they get it just so that their condemnation is just, so we will put a pin in that and we will come back to that next week. And Jesse, this is such a great series that I've just really enjoyed working through. And you know, it's funny because when we talk offline, we're kind of like, why don't we just talk about the Bible more? Um, I love systematic theology. I love doing church history stuff. Me too. And I think those are all really, really important and valuable. But there's something very sweet and, and something about like the episodes planned themselves and write themselves and do themselves, like when we're just talking about the scriptures. So I've really enjoyed working through the parables. I've really enjoyed the feedback that we're getting. Um, I do some Google Analytics stuff on our podcast episodes. We don't use the. Uh, I'll toss our episode statistics into Google or into to Google Gemini and ask it to analyze it. This parable series has been easily our most, uh, our most downloaded and most, um, accessed series in all time. Um, when you look at the way that podcast statistics are calculated, there's a, there's a weird little thing that happens that coincides both with COVID, uh, and also with some changes in the ways podcast statistics are calculated, um, that everybody saw a huge drop in their statistics, um, around, you know, 20 22, 20 23. But when you account for that blip, this, this series has been well received, better. Received than any other, uh, content we've ever provided, which is saying a lot. 'cause we've had some really popular series, some really, uh, really widespread series. So this one has hit a nerve and I'm really, really, really feeling it. I'm really, really here for it.  [01:03:29] Community and Support [01:03:29] Tony Arsenal: So if Jesse, if other people are here and they're feeling it and they wanna let us know about that, how would they do that?  [01:03:35] Jesse Schwamb: Well, we know they're feeling it. So really what you need to do is come hang out with us. And the best way to do that is we have a little corner of the internet through an app called Telegram, where there's a bunch of listeners, brothers and sisters from all around the globe who are dialoguing with each other, with us, about the episodes, about all kinds of topics. So you've heard it enough from us. So we're just saying to you, why not now? Why not now? Why not you? So if you wanna come find that place, all you have to do is go to your favorite browser and go to t Me Reform Brotherhood, t me slash reform brotherhood. One more time. For those of you Baptist, in the back, in the pew still t me slash reform brotherhoodhood. [01:04:18] Tony Arsenal: Yeah, and it's a great little place to come hang out, um, per constantly. Actually, I think one of the most. Busy. The most frequented channels in our group is the prayer request channel, which I love. Right on. Um, people are constantly bringing requests. People are genuinely praying for those requests, often typing out their prayers that they're praying for their brothers and sisters. Um, there's a. Section four charitable baptism discussions, which is actually a charitable discussion that's going on as an ongoing discussion's, a place for memes. There's a place like if you wanna taste an interesting food and take a video of your face when you do it, uh, you can do that. Um, so please do join us. And one last thing, you know, Jesse and I are. Veteran podcasters who do everything wrong. If you're still listening to this, then you're already a faithful listener and we're doing all of the stuff in the wrong order. That's right. Um, there is a small, relatively small group of people who make this podcast possible in a very real sense. Um, you know, there's not a ton of overhead to run a podcast, but there's some, and it's getting more because everything is getting more expensive. And there is a group of people who, um, who faithfully donate each month to allow us to continue podcasting. Um, we had. Some, you know, some technical issues. A while back we had to make a switch to a different, uh, different way for Jesse and I to connect. Uh, there's hosting fees that are getting more expensive If a microphone or a laptop breaks, we need to have funds to cover that. Uh, and so there's a group of people who, who contribute to allow us to be able to do that without having to tap into our personal finances, which is, is a huge blessing. I think we would probably still figure out how to make it work if we had to, but the fact that we don't is a huge blessing. So thank you to those who are contributing financially, and please do consider it if you, if that's something that, you know, you're listening to this and you're going, you know, I benefit from the podcast and I fulfilled my obligations to my local church and my family, and all my bills are paid, and I'd like to do something about it. What you can do is go to patreon.com/reform brotherhood. Uh, you can sign up to do a monthly, uh, donation of any amount. We don't have tears. We're not giving away any special swag at this time. Um, you're not gonna get special access to early podcasts or anything. There's lots of podcasts that do that, and that's great, but that's just not us. Um, but what we're doing is we're making sure that, uh, we're able to continue producing the podcast. If that's something you're interested in, go to patreon.com/reform brotherhood and uh, join the team.  [01:06:37] Final Gospel Warning [01:06:37] Jesse Schwamb: So what have we learned in this whole conversation, and maybe to wrap up this entire parable? Well, it seems clear that the Lordship of Christ established in his threefold role, he's the rejected stone. He's the cornerstone, he's the consuming stone, and the call of the gospel is pressed home in this passage with double urgency. Either we fall upon Christ now and be saved through brokenness, or he will fall upon us then and grind us into everlasting powder. So there's no neutral ground. The vineyard of God is still let out, the fruit is still demanded, loved ones, the cornerstones still laid. Blessed are they who receive him and also get those babies into church.  [01:07:16] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. Amen to that, Jesse. So until next time, until we come back and continue on this sort of parable trilogy, Jesse, honor everyone  [01:07:26] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood.
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  The Wicked Tenants: How the Pharisees Condemned Themselves 11.05.2026 1h 3min

  In this powerful episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse dive deep into Matthew 21:33-46, examining Jesus's parable of the wicked tenants. The hosts unpack how Christ masterfully draws the Pharisees into pronouncing their own condemnation, revealing not merely theological error but intentional usurpation of God's authority. Through careful exegesis, they explore the shocking setup of the parable—where the landowner does all the work while the tenants contribute nothing—and how this mirrors God's sovereign initiative in salvation. The discussion touches on confession, the value of full-time ministry, and the scandal of rejecting the Messiah despite recognizing His authority. This episode challenges listeners to examine whether they, like the Pharisees, attempt to claim God's work as their own. Key Takeaways God Does All the Verbs: The parable emphasizes that the landowner planted, built, protected, and prepared everything—the tenants contributed nothing yet claimed ownership of the fruit. Self-Pronounced Condemnation: Jesus draws the Pharisees into declaring their own judgment, demonstrating that even the unregenerate conscience bears witness to divine justice (Romans 2). Intentional Usurpation, Not Mere Error: The Pharisees weren't well-intentioned but misguided; they recognized Christ's authority as the heir and deliberately murdered Him to seize His inheritance. The Scandal of Grace: The parable's shocking element is that the landowner prepared everything before leasing the land—far exceeding normal agricultural arrangements and illustrating God's unmerited favor. Ecclesial Support for Ministry: The OPC presbytery's decision to fund a full-time call demonstrates how church structure can honor the ministry of Word and sacrament by freeing ministers from worldly distractions. Particular Repentance Matters: Westminster Confession 15.5 teaches that believers should not content themselves with general repentance but "endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly." The Stone Rejected Becomes Chief: Christ's citation of Psalm 118 reveals that the very rejection by the builders (religious leaders) was God's plan to establish the cornerstone of salvation. Key Concepts God Does All the Verbs The concentration of action verbs attributed solely to the landowner in Matthew 21:33 is theologically significant. The landowner plants, builds, digs, and rents—creating a fully functional, productive vineyard before the tenants ever arrive. This arrangement differs radically from typical first-century agricultural practices, where tenants would lease raw land and develop it themselves, sharing profits with the landowner. Jesus deliberately presents an extraordinary scenario where the tenants receive everything prepared and ready, requiring only stewardship of what already exists. This parallels God's sovereign initiative in election and salvation: believers contribute nothing to their standing before God, receiving instead a fully accomplished redemption. The Pharisees' rebellion wasn't against burdensome requirements but against simply acknowledging God's rightful ownership of what He alone created. Intentional Usurpation, Not Mere Error The hosts challenge the common sympathetic reading of the Pharisees as well-intentioned legalists who simply got sidetracked. Instead, verse 38 reveals the tenants explicitly recognize the son as heir and plot to murder him to "seize his inheritance." This isn't accidental rejection but calculated rebellion. The Pharisees weren't confused about Jesus's identity or authority—they understood precisely who He claimed to be and deliberately chose to destroy Him rather than submit. This interpretation carries significant weight for understanding the nature of unbelief: it's not primarily intellectual confusion but volitional rebellion. The religious leaders didn't need more evidence or clearer teaching; they needed transformed hearts. This same dynamic appears whenever humans recognize divine truth yet choose self-sovereignty over submission to God's rightful claim on their lives. The Scandal of Grace The parable begins with a scandalous premise that would have startled Jesus's original audience. Unlike normal tenant farming arrangements where landowners simply provided land in exchange for a share of whatever the tenants produced through their own labor, this landowner invests everything. He doesn't just own the property—he plants the vineyard, constructs the protective wall, digs the wine press for production, and builds the watchtower for defense. The tenants receive a turnkey operation requiring minimal effort. This extravagant preparation mirrors God's unmerited favor toward Israel and, by extension, the church. God didn't merely create humanity and wait to see what we would produce; He established covenants, sent prophets, preserved His Word, and ultimately sent His Son—all before requiring any response. The only "payment" demanded is acknowledging His ownership of what He created. The parable thus exposes the absurdity and ingratitude of claiming God's work as our own achievement. Memorable Quotes God does all the verbs. All of the verbs are done by the landowner. There is nothing expected of these tenants—they really add nothing to the landowner's land. Christ is not painting the Pharisees as well-intentioned but ultimately wrong. He's painting them as usurpers who recognize the proper authority and rather than submitting to it, they're going to reject that authority and try to take it for their own. Men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but it is every man's duty to endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly. (Westminster Confession 15.5) Transcript Welcome to episode 491 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  [00:01:12] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.  [00:01:17] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother.  [00:01:18] Parable of Tenants [00:01:18] Jesse Schwamb: So picture this, Tony, your landlord. You've built the perfect vineyard. We're talking wall watchtower, wine, press, the works like what everybody says. Everybody knows you need all those things. You've got it all set up, and then you hand the keys to some tenants. You take a long trip, you go enjoy yourself. And when the harvest rolls around, you send your servants to collect the rent. And shockingly, your tenants, they beat. Stone. Another, the kill a third. So naturally you think, you know what? I'll fix this. Lemme just send more people. That's obviously the problem. There's some kind of just profound misunderstanding about what's going on here and about our relationship in this business. And then when that doesn't work, you send your son now loved ones. If this were a business strategy, we would already be calling hr. But of course it's not a business strategy, it's a parable. And Jesus is telling it to the very people about to prove the parable true. So welcome back to the Reformed Brotherhood because we're in Matthew Chapter 21 and we're gonna be actually getting all the way into the parable of the Vine growers where the patience of God looks, I would say, to almost anybody else, to humanize at least almost reckless until you realize that's exactly the point. So yeah, grab your beverage of choice, grab your Bible, pull the car over, will you? Because this is gonna get real and we're going to reason together. But before we do all of that, let's do a little affirming with or denying against, what do you got?  [00:02:41] Inside Baseball Affirmation [00:02:41] Tony Arsenal: So this is a sort of inside baseball, uh, affirmation. Um, I'm not sharing anything, although it may feel like I'm sharing something that is private and like, uh, like confidential. It's not No, this is good. Um, so I had the opportunity to visit. Um, my presbytery, um, for those who are listeners of the show or people who like, have been with us a long time, um, I was part of a Baptist church. Uh, I've always kind of been a Presbyterian at heart, but, um, our church closed, uh, a little over a year and a half ago now. And, um, uh, I've joined an OPC congregation in membership now. We've been members there for about a year. And, um, so I've been visiting Presbytery, which is the, the meeting of all of the leadership of all of the churches. So we won't do a polity breakdown here, but basically like, it's, it's the regional meeting. It's the regional business meeting or church meeting for a group of churches in the OPC, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. And so a lot of the meetings, you know, have the normal kind of business type stuff. You have reports from different committee committees and stuff. Um.  [00:03:48] Presbytery Call Debate [00:03:48] Tony Arsenal: Where this is affirmation is coming in here is at this most recent presbytery meeting, um, was pretty heavy on, um, licensing or, or, uh, not licensing on approving men who had received a call to formal ministry within the presbytery. And so in the OPC, and I would imagine that other Presbyterian bodies are not like super different, although I'm sure there's some variation in the OPC. Um, when a church intends to extend a call to a pastor, to a teaching elder, um, to a minister, they must have the call, which is. Is both theological but is also eminently practical. Like the call is a physical piece of paper that details, you know, what the pay is, how much vacation time. So it's kind of a combination between like a theological call and also a contract. Um, the presbytery has to approve that call. And so at this most recent one, there was a couple calls that were more or less uncontroversial. There was no question about them, and they were approved pretty quickly. But there was one call, um, one call to ministry that took, I, I, I didn't time it, but it was probably like four or five hours of debate and discussion in various fashion in order to get to a point where the presbytery could approve the call. So this was a call to a minister who is being called part-time, which is unusual in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Um, the OPC uh, acknowledges the fact that bivocational tent making ministry is sometimes a necessity, but really views the ministry of the word in sacrament as something that should not have. Distractions. And actually our book of church order talks about, doesn't use the word distraction, I think, but it talks about a, a properly ordered call to a full-time minister includes phrasing that the congregation promises to compensate them in a way that allows them to be free of worldly burdens and cares. And I might have not, not have gotten that wording exactly right. But that's the idea. And so this call was. Explicitly, um, not a full-time call it, they actually took the language out of promising to pay him in a way that he's able to ignore or to not be distracted by worldly care. And that was intentional, but there was a lot of question in discussion at presbytery level about the fact that the call did not include the phrase or the wording of part-time or bivocational. So the conversation started out of like, can this call be modified to include that? So it's explicitly known in this man's call that his calling is part-time, which is both theological, to make sure that the call is properly formatted, but also like very practical that the congregation should acknowledge explicitly that they recognize that this person is not, not going to be putting, you know, 40 hours a week or 50 hours a week towards this position. [00:06:34] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:06:34] Tony Arsenal: Um. What I'm affirming is where it got to, right? So there was lots of discussion about that. There was some finagling about the retirement package. The OPC recommends that a, a minister be given a retirement contribution of no less than 5% a year of his salaried package. Um, which there's a couple line items that go into that, but 5%, and this was a little bit less than that. And this is what I'm affirming and this, I, I don't know that this is a super widespread thing that would happen all across the, um, the OPC, but it happened in the presbytery of New York and New England this past week, and it's just amazing. And I just, I just want to lay it out there and then I want to hear your reaction. [00:07:13] Funding Full Time Ministry [00:07:13] Tony Arsenal: And I, I wanna hear your reaction as the son of a minister who labored his entire adult, more or less, his entire adult career in ministry, working two or three additional jobs on top of his ministry, the presbytery decided. That because it did not like the idea of a part-time minister. They didn't think that was appropriate. They didn't think that that was good or that that was really the right goal. The presbytery allocated, I'm not gonna say the figures 'cause they're not super germane, but allocated a significant amount of money to be dis to be dispersed to the church for the next three years in order to take what was a part-time call and enable it to become a full-time call. [00:07:54] Jesse Schwamb: Wow.  [00:07:54] Tony Arsenal: And so there are a lot of, there are a lot of church bodies that would say, yeah, we don't love the idea of bi-vocational ministry. You know, we really think it's ideal that a minister could be full-time. Um, they may even put some, some theological freight behind that. Um, I have never encountered a body, um. That was willing to put a sizable amount of money towards essentially supplementing a part-time call to make it full-time. Um, this was just amazing to me, and the candidate was there. I didn't get a chance to talk to him, but I would love to talk to him about what he felt. I, I can just imagine the phone call to his wife who was not, not at presbytery, but to his wife, following the outcome of this to be like, you are never gonna believe what just happened. Right? This is a family who was intending to move across country. Right. He's currently a student at Westminster, California in seminary, uh, California, Westminster Seminary in California, finishing his M Div. They're planning a cross country move into a part-time position where she's probably gonna have to find a job, and then also he's gonna have to find a part-time job. He had the ability to call her on the break and be like, you're never gonna guess what just happened? You're never gonna,  [00:09:09] Jesse Schwamb: it's wild.  [00:09:09] Tony Arsenal: Uh, sorry, I'm getting a little emotional here. You're never going to. Believe how faithful God is in this. Right. So I'm interested to hear your reaction to that as the son of a, of a try and quad at times Quad vocational. Yeah,  [00:09:23] Jesse Schwamb: for sure.  [00:09:23] Tony Arsenal: Minister who labored his entire, more or less, his entire adult career, um, working full-time in a call as a part-time, part-time minister. You know, like that's a, that's a crazy situation. So I'm just affirming that again, I don't know how common that kind of thing is in the OPC. I don't wanna make it seem like that's the norm. Um, I actually get the sense that this is probably not the norm, but it was amazing to see and it made me in intensely like. Proud in the right way of being a part of this broader body that would, would so emphasize and so value the ministry of the word and the sacrament, and the importance of a man being able to dedicate himself to that without distraction. That they would put forward this amount of money and this kind of money. They had no reason to do so. And there's no real direct benefit to the presbytery for doing this. I mean, there's an indirect benefit of like not having a church with a part-time minister, but like there's no direct benefit to this. There's no direct return on investments that's gonna come out of this. Um, it was pretty amazing to see. It was, it was, it was super encouraging.  [00:10:28] Jesse Schwamb: That is really encouraging. I, I think it's, there's no doubt that for the called pastor, their heart is in the ministry of the word. That's what they want to be doing. They wanna be doing it all the time and as much time as they possibly can, and they wanna be able to have all of their intentional focus on it. So I. I'm excited for that guy. I mean, that's just an incredible blessing to go in hoping for funding, essentially for a part-time role and to basically be told, no, no, no, no, that's, that's not enough. We want you to be committed to this fully as we know your heart is committed. As we validated that call.  [00:11:00] Why Structure Matters [00:11:00] Jesse Schwamb: I do love being a part of churches, well, lemme say it this way. There is, I think, a benefit of being part of congregations that have like a wide resource network that has like appropriate hierarchy and structure and that can be one of them. I've seen something similar in the Christian Missionary Alliance, which is the church that I'm in, not exactly the same, but I've seen some surprising allocations of resources where they basically said, you know, this is important. Like, it even trumps we're, we're gonna. Allocate or resource something so that this can move forward because it is important in a way that was like better than the person who was bringing it before them could have hoped for. Yeah. And uh, suddenly it's as if everything aligned. And it was really in part because there was this structure to come alongside, to validate as you're saying, and then to authenticate and then again to resource assets that could be used. There's, there's something to be said for that interdependency where there is kind of this hierarchical structure in which all that's happening at a level where things are codified. And again, like there's a structure and a way in which we move through those decisions to make sure that they suit the objective of the entire movement. So I guess there's nothing I'll say, but that's a beautiful thing, isn't it?  [00:12:14] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:12:15] Generosity in Action [00:12:15] Tony Arsenal: It was, it was, it was cool because it was like this, it was like this real. Actualization of the principle of outdoing one another and showing honor. Yeah, sure. Because you know, like the initial debate was like, Hey, you know, I'm not sure we can approve this call because the, the OPCs guidelines tell us not to approve a call that has less than 5% of the retirement benefit. And there was a lot of discussion of like, well, the presbytery can't modify the call, but we don't wanna delay this guy coming in and like, we don't wanna delay his ordination, his installation. And so the initial proposal was a, a. What feels like a large amount of money to me. But after I understood more about the, the budget of what's going on in, in the presbytery was actually a very small amount of money. Started with a very tiny, very modest proposal of basically like supplementing the retirement fund to make sure that like we could, they, I say we, like, I was part of this, I was just observing, but to supplement the retirement fund in a way that allowed the church to still proceed with the call as written, but still also make sure that this person had the appropriate retirement fund. And then that just basically was like, there would be some instruction given to the church that like, you've gotta bump this up in the next budget cycle. Like you've gotta get to the 5%. That's, that's the expectation. It went from that. And like I said, I won't give you the specific numbers, but one of the presbyters and I, I'm, I, um, I, I've known this presbyter from a distance for quite a long time and, and I have an immense amount of respect for him. He stood up and he's like, well, if we're gonna give X, why don't we just give 10 times X instead? And then actually, like the discussion was like, well, is, are we sure that 10 times X is even the right amount? Why don't we have this particular group meet over the lunch break and figure out whether that's the right number and then come back after lunch and we'll vote on it. And then they came back after lunch and it was actually a number that was even greater than 10 times X. So it was like this exercise in like. This very small proposal that was still imminently generous, right? The presbytery has no obligation to do this. There's no obligation from any of the presbyters to stand up and say like, we should. We should supplement this fund. They would've been well within their right, and no one would've looked, I think. I think some people would've been frustrated by it, but I don't think anyone would've looked sideways at it or thought it was sinful. If the presbytery just said like, we can't approve this call. You guys are gonna have to come back with it and we'll vote on it at the next presbytery. Like that would've been problematic. This, this kind of poor guy who's coming outta seminary, his call and his beginning of employment would've been delayed, but like. That would've been good and orderly, but instead they were like, one, we don't want this pulpit to stay empty longer. We don't wanna disadvantage this guy who's just getting done with seminary. We want him to get started. We don't wanna discourage him. So here's a small proposal, a very modest amount of money that we can put forward for this purpose. And then it was like, let's just keep seeing how much closer to a real full-time call we can get. And they finally came back and said like, we're gonna do this. We're gonna do this in a wise fashion. They structured it. So like the first year he gets more, the second year he gets a little bit less. The third year the church gets a little bit less with the idea that like each year the church should be adjusting their budget to compensate and get this guy to that with the, the hope that like with a full-time minister, they're able to grow their congregation to the point where they can support a full-time minister. So it was just this really cool, super encouraging exercise. And what I loved about it is the only real debate that was going on was about do we need to do more? There was no one being like, wait a second, why are we, why are we putting more money to this? The whole thing was like, is this actually enough to accomplish what we think God wants to do with this person's call? Because if, if God is truly calling this man to this, this particular church, and we believe that he is. Then what do we as a, as a people of God need to do to enable that call to look like what we actually believe calls to ministry are supposed to look like, which is a full-time call to ministry that is undistracted by the cares of the world. What do we need to do? The answer in this case was like, I think we need to put a sizable amount of money to it. Um, it's a, I mean, and again. I'm not gonna say it on the air. It was not a small chunk of change. Um, it was, it was a, it was a large amount of money that was devoted to this cause and that just goes to show how much this body values the importance of a full-time minister of the word, so. [00:16:50] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:16:51] OPC Love and Recommendation [00:16:51] Tony Arsenal: That's enough about that. I, I could gush about how proud I am to be a part of this body and how encouraged I am and how amazing it was and how awesome this, this guy, how, how much this guy must be thanking God for the providence and like, this is the last thing. I'll say this, this young man younger than me, I think he's graduating seminary. I saw him across the room. He looks like he's probably in his mid twenties, right? Young guy. He's got a wife doesn't have kids yet coming into this ministry, not only is he coming into this ministry, but as a Presbyterian minister, when he's installed as the minister of this church. He will be joining this body of presbyters as the, as his brothers like. He is not a member of the local church. He's a member of the presbytery, which is the regional church. So now he's coming into this fully supported by his brothers in the presbytery that he saw go to the mat to make sure he was properly taken care of, that the congregation was not unintentionally taking advantage of his labor, but also that he knows that all of these men are willing to do what they need to do to make sure that his ministry is successful and edifies the church like that is. Uh, I don't want to gush on Presbyterianism too much, but like that is Presbyterianism at peak form, right? This is the body of elders making sure that every church in the region, even the ones they're not directly ministering in, has what it needs to succeed and to honor God and to do what needs to happen. So I'm affirming the presbytery of New York and New England and the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Um, I have been so blessed by knowing many of these presbyters. I've been so blessed by being a part of the congregation that I am. There are lots of really great churches and really great denominations out there. If you are looking for a church and there is an OPC congregation in your area, absolutely go check it out. I know it feels stuffy sometimes, and I will admit, like sometimes it feels a little bit overly traditional in terms of like just the vibe of the congregation,  [00:18:52] Jesse Schwamb: right?  [00:18:52] Tony Arsenal: But press past that because I don't think, I don't think you will find, um. You may find lots of congregations that are as faithful. I don't think you're gonna find many that are more faithful than your average OPC congregation. So I could be wrong. I just, I just love the OPC. I just really, really love it. So that's my affirmation. What do you got for us, Jesse?  [00:19:18] Denial Catholic Confession Math [00:19:18] Jesse Schwamb: I think I got denial, which is maybe a little bit unusual for me. [00:19:21] Tony Arsenal: As long as you're not denying the OPCI think we're fine.  [00:19:23] Jesse Schwamb: No, it's, it's not, it is church related and I, I'll try to keep it short 'cause I think I can make this way longer than it, it probably should be, but lemme think how to phrase this. So, I don't know with a devil negative, I guess when I'm a denying against is maybe not enough confession by your own standard. So the, I'm gonna try to make this so brief. I, I just happened to be out with my wife this afternoon and we had to run errands. We got stuck in traffic and this gave me longer than usual to sit in front of our. Very local and very large Catholic church. So I happen to be looking at their sign. It's a very large congregation. I've been actually been in this one on a couple of occasions for funerals. So not only do I know its size and scope, but again, if you get, if you get on this road at the wrong time on the Lord's day, you're gonna be stuck for a long time because there are so many people that attend. I say that because I noticed on the sign that there were three times for mass on the Lord's Day. So that also says something about the number of people coming through. And then on the sign though, underneath it said for confessions, go to our website. Mm-hmm. So I was like, man, I gotta lick this up because I can't tell if they're telling me I can confess on the website or if it's go to the website for the times. And I said to my wife, only half jokingly, if I can confess online, I'm gonna confess something. So I went to, I went to the website and, and sure enough it was almost disappointingly. It was just the times.  [00:20:45] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:20:46] Jesse Schwamb: Here's what I've found interesting, which just launched me into this like deep rabbit hole. There were three times for confession. Two of those times were just a half an hour, and the third time was an hour. So, uh, what I did was I went through, actually, I think what they had on there was, was three full hours a week. It was a little bit confusing, but I think it was three full hours. Now I think about it. So I went back, I just couldn't help myself, Tony. So I started to think, alright, let's say. I think it's fair to assume  [00:21:15] Tony Arsenal: math, Jesse is kicking in right now. Yes. You're gonna calculate how many minutes per, per person is what you're doing. I'm thinking, ah,  [00:21:22] Jesse Schwamb: yeah, it's something like that. So what I thought was, I don't think it's, uh, I was gonna be conservative. I wanna be fair. I wanna be fair. So, and now we should say like, I think most people realize that the Catholic understanding of confession and the Protestant one is, is very different. The Catholic sacrament of confession is the right through which Catholics are gonna confess their sins to a priest receive absolution, and it's gonna restore the relationship with God in the church. And, and they're gonna believe that the priest acts as a person of Christ and is bound by the seal of confession and an absolute kind of obligation. Uh, of course never to reveal what was disclosed during that process. So, by the way, the website that I went to, lovely instructions. I mean, I was like, wow. I was reading it to my wife who was, uh, not familiar with this at all, and she was like, they can make you do stuff. And I was like, well, yeah. I mean, obviously like there's, there's a portion of this where there's contrition or penant penance. It could be a prayer, it could be act of charity, like all kinds of stuff. So I went back and I thought. I don't think it's unreasonable that there's 350 persons that would say, let's say an average, uh, that would wanna take part of confession. Now, let's say that they did that at, at least monthly, just once a month. And, and I don't know how people's conviction is on that, but I'm gonna say conservatively once a month. Let's say that, and I don't think this is unreasonable, Tony, but you tell me. Let's say you're, you're trucking, you're moving through confession. Let's say it's five minutes a piece. So we're up to 1,750 minutes, uh, per month. That's the demand on the priest because I was, I was looking at this time and I was thinking something is strange here to me, so. That was the demand then, and I'll spare you the other math, which could be very long and un uninteresting. I'm coming up with, you'd need 2.24, two and a quarter priests, which of course you can't have a quarter priests or a quarter person for any reason. So you'd hire, you'd hire three priests, which satisfy the demand if, and the major assumptions here, that is like everybody can't show up at the same time. Obviously, I'm assuming that like everybody has their own time, they're spreading it out. So everybody gets the confession, but it's just five minutes. And I, I have no idea. I mean, if you're a Luther, that's certainly not sufficient time.  [00:23:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:23:20] Jesse Schwamb: And you would need three priests. Now here's the thing that I just kind of backed into that, besides like three being like, okay, that, that's, you would need three priests just to satisfy this congregation. If they're confessing for five minutes, once per month. Uh, by the way, if you said, well, half the congregation is going to go weekly, uh, then you, you would double the number of priests you need to 5.98 or six. But here's, here's the bottom line for me. This is why the denial comes in about maybe not enough, is. If you were just to distill that down to like, if you could have one priest cover that time, that there's a demand for like 779.4 hours, or excuse me, minutes of confession, that priest would only be allocating approximately like seven and a half percent of their working hours, their work toward handling confession. This seems like not enough confession given the standards of confession in the Catholic church. And again, I know that I'm, I'm now allocating that to one priest and I just told everybody you need three. That's true. So if you had these three now, if you hired three just to meet the demand, that would only be about like three and a half or a little under three and a half percent of their combined time. So the denial is Catholics, I think, unless I'm way off in some of my assumptions here, you might not be confessing enough by your own standards because  [00:24:33] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:24:34] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, that seems like not enough time.  [00:24:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:24:39] Ritual Faithfulness Explained [00:24:39] Tony Arsenal: I mean, I think, um. I don't want to be too bombastic here, but I think,  [00:24:46] Jesse Schwamb: I think I already started this on this  [00:24:48] Tony Arsenal: path. Maybe this, maybe this isn't all that bombastic. Um, because this is so much about ritual and actually I say this is gonna sound really, we, we go, but trying to think from the Roman Catholic perspective, it's actually not, and I'll I'll tell you a brief story, uh, to explain it. Um, a lot of Roman Catholics are just going through the motions. [00:25:13] Jesse Schwamb: That's true.  [00:25:14] Tony Arsenal: But the point, the, the, the point of contention actually is that going through the motions is valuable for the Roman Catholic, right? So I, I knew this, uh, this young woman when I was in college who was a Roman Catholic, and we had many discussions about, about the differences between Protestantism and and Roman Catholicism. And what I came to understand is that going to mass for her. Itself was an act of faith. And so for the Roman Catholic, the concept of, of faith is different than the concept that Protestants operate under. So for the Roman Catholic who, um, goes to mass, even when they feel like they're, like, when they think they're just going through the motions, going through the motions is itself the act of faith. And that's because for most of Roman Catholics, most of Roman Catholicism, faith really equals faithfulness, right? So, so doing the act is the act of faithfulness. Doing the act is faith. Where for the Protestant, like faith is about belief and trust and knowledge. Like it's, it's an. Not entirely intellectual, but it's, it's an inward thing for the Roman Catholic faith is an out is primarily an outward thing. It's what you do, it's how you act. It's faith formed in love. It's faith formed in charity.  [00:26:36] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:26:37] Tony Arsenal: So I think most Roman Catholics going to obligatory confession first. I think once a month is probably like, probably more frequent than most Roman Catholics go to mass or go to confession. Um, I thought I read a stat that it was like every six months is, is pretty average and I think that's what's required by the church maybe even once a year is, is required by the church. Um, I think like most Roman Catholics go into the, the confessional booth and like father forgive me for I've sinned. It's been such and such a number of days since my last confession. Right. And they may bring up a couple particular things that they've done and, and then I think the priest commonly absolves them of all of their sins. Like, almost like in an omnibus fashion and then prescribes their acts of penance, which is it, it like, honestly, it's probably things they should already be doing as a faithful Catholic saying Hail Marys and doing our fathers and acts of charity and things like that. So I think your math is probably right. [00:27:39] Protestant Repentance Particular [00:27:39] Tony Arsenal: I think your, your theory that more confession is probably like, I'm gonna read this from, uh, the Westminster confession, just to, just to say it here, is, this is chapter 15, which is titled of Repentance Under Life. And this is, uh, this is section five or paragraph five. It says, men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but is every man's duty to endeavor, to repent of his particular sins, particularly. And I think that's just such a beautifully phrased sentence like. Not only is it like potent theologically, but like, it just, it just feels good, like in terms of like the English language to repent of your particular sins, particularly. And like the idea is yes, Protestant reform, Christians affirm a general repentance from sin, right? We repent of our sin before the father, uh, as a result of our, of our coming to faith in Christ. And as part of our sanctification, we mortify our sin and we, Viv we are vivified by the spirit and repentance falls in that ongoing sanctification process. And there is this general repentance of like, I repent of the fact that I'm a sinner and that I commit sins, but there is this element in the reformed faith of like, I should be confessing to God. And I think by extension, like we should be confessing to our fellow Christians, our particular sins, our individual sins, and we should be doing that on particular occasion. And I think like. The Luther style confession of like going into the confessor and confessing like every particular sin. Particularly I think most Roman Catholic priests would, priests. Priests would probably have the same reaction Tobits did where he was like, get outta here. Like, come on dude. Like just go live your life and like deal with it. I think that's probably the reaction most Catholic priests would have. But yeah, I think you're right. Like if we're really talking about like. Five, five minutes of confession once a month and that somehow having some sort of spiritual efficacy. I'm not sure I buy that math. Like I think you're, you're probably spot on.  [00:29:47] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:29:47] Confession Hours Oddities [00:29:47] Jesse Schwamb: I just was curious about how many priests would be required and then the allocation of the duties. By the way, you are right. So I, because I had to check on this, the, the fourth letter in council of 1215 does say that the church requires confession of any grave or mortal sins at least once a year. But the church, yeah, strongly encourages more frequent confession as a spiritual practice, even for, of course, like the venial or the less serious sins in their eyes. So yeah, my thought here was just that. I think it's actually undervalued by way of the math. Like the, as the kids say, the math just isn't math thing for me on this one. But I was more curious about, since this is one of the seven sacraments, even if you just said like, well, it should have at least one seven of the allocation. That's like, what? Like something like 14%. And so this is, um, almost half of that. I just found it a little bit, a little bit odd and yeah, I think you'd have to be, uh, so in other words, when I looked at the, basically, here's the bottom line. When I looked at the hours for confession one, there were weird times and uh, two, I was like, that doesn't seem like enough hours. Like, it was just more like that. Like how that's like saying like, Hey, the post office is open three hours a week, and by the way, one of those hours is from seven to eight o'clock on Friday. Like they had some hours. One hour just on Friday was like, I guess that's the way you wanna start your weekend is like, let's get all of this off my chest. Yeah. And, and do it. Right. And the last thing I'll say by the way, is you're correct. When you look at the instruction they give you, and this is common of course, toward the end, when they say like, here's how you like wrap up your part. Actually everybody should go read, go to the local, local Catholic church website and read the instructions. 'cause in some ways they're just interesting and kind of, um, I don't wanna say funny 'cause I'm not making fun. I'm just saying like, they have to give you instruction if you've never done it before. And so most of us are not really probably familiar with the process and they give you explicit instruction and toward the end it's like, here's how you kinda like hang up the call with the priest. And it's like you said, you know, these are my sins and all others, would you be willing to forgive? So you're right. Right. They just kinda wrap them all up because it's sins of omission, sense of commission, it's all to be together. But I, I wonder, you gotta think there's people in there that are like. The priests are like, okay, man, just yeah. Wrap, come on, wrap, wrap it up.  [00:31:55] Confession Timing Talk [00:31:55] Jesse Schwamb: And other people that come in are just like, you know, forgive me father. And uh, lastly to your point, when they give you instruction about how you should start, of course you're always to signify how long it's been since your last confession. Right. Confession. And they say parenthetically, like, reference the days, weeks, months, or years. So you're right. There are gonna be people that probably do it very frequently and probably people who do it infrequently still, I would say I just couldn't believe for a church this large, that there was just three hours a week.  [00:32:21] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:32:21] Jesse Schwamb: For everybody else.  [00:32:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:32:23] Vance and Papal Authority [00:32:23] Tony Arsenal: This leads me to two very brief sub, uh, denials slash affirmations. Uh, I don't know if you saw this, um, this is not a political statement, right? I, I have lots of feelings and thoughts about the current administration and I think most of my feelings and thoughts would surprise. Everybody. But I thought it was hilarious because JD Vance, who is a Roman Catholic, uh, confessed Roman Catholic part of the Roman Catholic Church, uh, he ha I, I'm not sure if I'm affirming or denying this, there was this funny, uh, funny exchange. I think he was at doing like a, doing like a TPU, I don't know, speech. He was doing a speech at some conservative event and he said something like, I think that the Pope should be more careful when he makes theological statements. I'm wanna be like, do you understand what the pope is in your religion? That was one of my sub denials. Uh, I don't remember what the other one is, so it must not have been that important. It'll come back to me at the worst possible moment and I will try very hard not to interrupt our show for it, but I probably will fail.  [00:33:25] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:33:25] Reading Matthew 21 [00:33:25] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, we, we gotta get to some scripture because. We're, we're doing this old school style where we take like half the time and just talk about affirmations. It's true in house. It's true. Which is great fun. But let's, let's get back to Matthew 21. And I, I know we did this last time, but I am gonna rock through the passage 'cause of course, that's the best part of any of our discussion, is actually hearing from, from the Holy Spirit through the scripture, uh, which he's given to us. So this is, uh, Matthew 21, starting in verse 33. And you're gonna hear the, the whole thing right here. Uh, this is Jesus speaking. Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who planted a vineyard and put a wall around it and dug a wine press in it and built a tower and rented it out to vine growers and went on a journey. Now, when the high risk time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine growers to receive his fruit, and the vine growers took his slaves and beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. Again, he sent another group of slaves larger than the first, and they did the same thing to them. But afterward he sent his son to them saying they will respect my son. But when the vine growers saw the sun, they said among themselves, this is the heir. Come let us kill him and seize his inheritance, and they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine growers? They said to him, he will bring those wretches to a wretched end and will rent out the vineyard to other vine growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons. Jesus said to them, did you ever read in the scriptures the stone, which the builders rejected? This has become the chief cornerstone. This came about from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes. Therefore, I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruit of it. And he who falls in the stone will be broken to pieces, but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust. And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they understood that he was speaking about them. And although they were seeking to seize him, they feared the crowds because they're regarding him to be a prophet. [00:35:28] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:35:30] Pharisees Condemn Themselves [00:35:30] Tony Arsenal: This is like a super heavy parable. Right. And we talked a lot last week about how like the point of this parable is not necessarily to try to instruct the Pharisees or the Sadducees. Like it's not to instruct the people who were going to reject Christ, uh, the, the builders who would reject the cornerstone. It's really a parable to teach those. Who are observing this process happening. But I think it's, I, I think it's really interesting just listening to you read this and reading through it, and I guess this is a question I haven't asked and I, I need to study a little bit more. It's crazy to me in verse 41, um, Christ seems the, the, the, um, Matthew seems to say here, and maybe I need to do a little bit more Greek study, so bear with me and, and have grace if I'm wrong here. Matthew seems to say that like Christ asks the people he's speaking to, the Pharisees he's speaking to, what is he gonna do to these people? And the Pharisees answer, he's gonna put those wretches to a miserable death.  [00:36:36] Jesse Schwamb: Right?  [00:36:37] Tony Arsenal: Like the people listening to this parable understand the outcome, like they understand the. The consequence that the, the, the vineyard owner or the vineyard tenant tenants are facing based on their lack of faithfulness to the covenant. To me, that is like a really striking part of this parable. And, and it's not even like the parable proper, but like the striking element of the context of this is that nobody listening to this parable, including the Pharisees that this parable has basically spoken against, nobody fails to see the gravity of the consequence of rejecting God's emissary, like rejecting the Messiah. That to me is like a really, I dunno, paradigmatic. Portion of this that I think we need to grapple with. This is not an unclear, an unclear outcome. This is not, this is not masked or vague or OPA opaque. Like everybody understands, the people who reject the Messiah are going to face dire and eternal consequences for that act. [00:37:48] Jesse Schwamb: That does make this really interesting, doesn't it? Because it's not just entirely like Romans one adventures or even Romans two. It's that this is what Jesus does and he does it in a profound way that's not trickery like I think kinda like you're saying like the lead up to this isn't as if he's even leading the witness. He's making it very clear, all like the parameters of the story and the characters involved and what should be the proper judgment. And it's not as if like they start saying, they're like, oh, we shouldn't say anything more like we, we plead the fifth because it's gonna condemn ourselves. He draws his audience in to producing and pronouncing like their own sentence. It's very much like, I think I mentioned this last time, the prophet Nathan and David, isn't it? It's the exact same. Yeah. And the verdict is unanswerable, like even in its own terms. These other, like these other vine growers, prefigures of course like the inclusion of the Gentiles and the apostolic office. But I like that what Jesus does here, even before he gets to that point, is he extorts from them an acknowledgement of the punishment which awaited them. And so in this way there's like, I think the Puritans use this passage a lot actually to demonstrate that the natural conscience even of like the unregenerate, still bears witness to divine justice. That's Romans two. Like they, they can't get out from underneath it and Jesus isn't using any trickery on them to get them to say this thing. They are compelled in their own way, even being unregenerate to, like you said, even as they're rejecting the Messiah to recognize that punishment is due these characters in the story, even as they perceive at the end that they are those characters. [00:39:21] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:39:22] Jesse Schwamb: Saying we'll receive the judgment.  [00:39:24] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:39:25] Usurpers Not Misguided [00:39:25] Tony Arsenal: And I think too, like, um, this is kind of one of those chicken or the egg scenarios, right? Like Christ is both recognizing the intention of their heart as well as prophesying. And, and not just prophesying, but like inception level prophesying the, the outcome of the intention of their heart. And so like, again, like we've, we spent a whole week kind of like leading into the parable and now we spent a whole week, we're gonna spend a whole week again kind of leading into the parable. This is such a deep parable, and that like Christ is not just laying bare. The fact that the, the people who were going to reject him were doing so out of this sort of like attempt and intention of usurping the kingdom of God for their own purposes. I think that brings a layer to this that we don't often appreciate in. Christ's interaction with the Pharisees. I think sometimes, and maybe this is because I just listened to an episode of where Matt Whitman on the 10 minute Bible hour talked about this. I think sometimes we actually have a tendency to sort of be sympathetic to the Pharisees where we think, you know, they were, they were just trying to obey God's law and they got a little sideways on it and you know, they were putting these boundaries in place, but they were doing it in this sort of like misguided attempt to protect the people. Christ actually here seems to contradict that in that the comparison he's making is not to a, a well-intentioned group of people who just get it wrong, but he's painting the Pharisees, the, the religious leaders, the Sadducees, the chief priests. He's painting them as these usurpers who recognize the proper authority of right. The master and his emissaries and ultimately of his son, they recognize this proper authority and rather than submitting to it and submitting to the covenant obligations that they, they already actually agreed to, instead of doing that, they're going to reject that authority and try to take it for their own right. It's not just that they do the wrong thing, it's that they recognize the heir, which is Christ. They recognize this heir and they kill him to try to take his place. That is a really heavy element of this parable. Christ is not painting. Um, the, the, the Pharisees here, the, the religious leaders. He's not painting them as um, well-intentioned, but ultimately wrong, which is I think a lot of times, and I think there's reason to do this right. I'm not being overly critical and I've done this, I've actually done this myself, and I think there's some. Space for it. Like the Pharisees were wrong, but they were wrong, kind of in the right direction sometimes. Um, Christ is not really on board with that, at least in this parable. Right. This isn't about them thinking that the heir was a threat, and so killing the threat in, you know, inadvertently this is them absolutely seeing who the hair, who the heir is, and intentionally deciding to reject that heir and to murder him and to try to take his inheritance. Mm-hmm. That's an affront to not only the heir who they murder, but an affront to the owner of the vineyard himself, which of course in this parable is figured to be God the father primarily. But God in sort of general terms, like the whole Godhead, um, with Christ as the second Adam has, as his representative, as his heir. This is a really heavy parable and I think where this comes into play for us in our own Christian life is. Are there times where we. Sort of do the same thing in refusing to, maybe it's tie into your denial a little bit. Like refusing to acknowledge our own sinfulness, refusing to acknowledge the ways that God has provided for us. Um, do we at times look at what we have and lay claim to it as though it is our own inheritance that we've taken? Um, right. Do we kind of crucify the son of God anew in, in refusing to repent of our sins particularly? I dunno. I think those are some open questions for us to kind of explore as we dig into this a bit more. [00:43:54] Jesse Schwamb: And that may relate as well to, well eventually at some point, I dunno, like 2040, get to like the parable of the talents. There's some similarity there with a little bit, right? You're saying? I think you're right.  [00:44:06] God Does All the Verbs [00:44:06] Jesse Schwamb: And where I think we can anchor some of that is in those first couple of verses. I'm really always impressed by really the number of action verbs that are packed within, like that just initial statement of Jesus explaining the situation. [00:44:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:44:19] Jesse Schwamb: So he sets it all up and he's saying there's a planting that goes on, this landowner puts up a wall, digs a wine press. Builds a tower and then RINs it. So there's all these like amazing things being done, all this action verb. And I, I think in part why he comes against the Pharisees so hard in the same way that we're looking at like the parable that, uh, the, uh, talents for instance of saying like, what did you do with that was entrusted to you was like this great treasure which Christ has entrusted or God has entrusted to his people, which is, is the gospel essentially is, is all a prophetic witness, is like the truth of who God is and his revelation of himself. And so I think. The first thing we gotta see in those verbs is that there's this emphasis that the vineyard was God's sovereign creation. You know, he plants it, he chose it, he established it. Israel didn't plant herself. She was planted. And that sovereign initiative is foundational, I think in, like you're saying, the parables indictment, because these vine growers, they don't possess anything that they did not receive. Right. You know, they did not find a vineyard already planted, but God himself made it from the wilderness that all his glory, all the glory might be his. So. I think it's helpful for us to observe that the church is always the planting of the Lord and that no congregation flourishes that is not first planted by God. And so there is a major offense here when those who are to care for it, who know, like you're saying, that they ought to care for it, who understand something about the hierarchy and the way it has been entrusted to them. Not to only break that covenant, but then seek to try to usurp the power in the roles of those whom they should be, quite frankly, in our own language, like under shepherds too. And so it starts with all, all those verbs. Like I think we could probably spend a. A lot of times just speaking about what does it mean? Why? Why is there all this explicit in particular language about the fact that there's a hedge and there's a press besides just these are part in piece mail or part and parcel of what it means to have a vineyard, apparently, but that they're all part of this narrative of God talking about how he protects and cares for his people and sets them in a place and chooses them and is particular about the construction and does so with great volition and authority and care and concern and creative ability. And then again, you have those who are meant there to do the very job that he's entrusted them with. And not only are they not doing that, and of course you're right. Jesus elsewhere, comes in, comes in hot, right, with a Pharisees saying like, listen, you set burdens on people's backs that you yourselves cannot lift. You're twice as in the hell as anybody else, and that's who you are. Yeah. It's not just hypocrisy, but you're literally setting people up to fail in this. So you can see how you're right. It's not just like, guys, I appreciate that. Like you wanted to set up some additional boundaries and maybe you took it a little bit too far. This parable is just scorched earth. It's, it's nuclear. Yeah.  [00:47:10] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:47:11] Scandalous Vineyard Setup [00:47:11] Tony Arsenal: And you know, I think, um, we are obviously gonna spend another week on this 'cause we still have not really addressed a single verse in this parable. I, I think like a lot of ink has been spilled on explaining sort of like the feal agricultural arrangements of this passage. What it represents. M my understanding is. A typical arrangement would be that a, a landowner would basically just lease out land and the tenants would be responsible for the planting, for the development. Right. And the, the, the landowner would essentially just collect a portion of whatever they produce. Right. This parable is actually taking this a step further. Exactly. That it's not as though the landowner just says like, all right, you can use this land. Right. And I own the land, so I get a portion of the pro, the profit. He's actually done all the work. Yes. And all that. The, all that the, the tenants need to do essentially is reap the harvest and then provide the portion of the harvest that belongs to the landowner, and so there is a greater investment. Of the landowner into this land than would be expected. We've commented in the past about how a lot of times the, the parables start on sort of a premise of shock. Like there's a, there's an element of the setup of the, of the parable where the audience would kind of like sit back and gasp or kind of be like, wait a second. Like that's not normal. Right. In the parable of the, the, um, lost son, it was the idea that like the son demanded his inheritance. And that wasn't the shocking part. The shocking part was that the father just granted it. Right. Or, um, the lost sheep, like the, there's actually a sort of a shocking element to the fact that like the, the land, the like sheep owner would just go get this other sheep. So we've, we've commented on there's kind of like. There's sort of like a scandalous setup. The scandalous setup in this is not that the land has been leased to tenants, right? It's that the land has been prepared for the tenants before it was leased out in the first place. And I think that's something we might miss if we read over this too quickly, is. The landowner has prepared everything for these, these tenants.  [00:49:30] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:49:31] Tony Arsenal: So the, the, at the, the punchline of the parable where they refuse to acknowledge the sovereignty of, um, sovereignty and maybe a lowercase s in the, in the context of the parable, they refuse to acknowledge the sovereignty and the rightful claim of the tenant or of the landowner on the, the profit of the land. And sort of like highlighter emphasized by the fact that they actually didn't do any of the work. There's a certain kind of like Amer, like American rugged individualism where we're kind of like, yeah, like if I planted all the crops, then it's kind of lame that this guy's coming in expecting to take a portion of it, right? Like, yeah, I guess he owns the land, so maybe he gets a little piece of it, but like, who does he think he is? All of that already is already short circuited. Like I. The, these tenants are not actually, um, portrayed as doing anything in this parable. That's right. Like they just lease the land. They, they, um, and leased is not really like the right. The right word, the, the Greek word is omi, which is like he gave over the land to them. Um, when we say leased, we have this idea that like the tenants pay to use the land and then like part of their contract is that whatever profits they reap, uh, off the land goes back to the, to the landowner. This is really more like the landowner graciously allowed them to live on this land, and the only payment he required was that they would eventually provide him part of the profit back. Like he's planted the land, he's put up the fence around it. He dug the wine press so that they could make a product out of it. He built the tower so it would be defended. Yes. And he gave it over to them essentially just to like live on until it was time for the harvest. And all he is asking for is basically like, alright, so this is my land. I've planted the vineyards, the profit is mine to have. And so when the time came for him to come claim that that's where they have now rejected him. Yes. That's where they've now said like, I know you did all the work and really graciously allowed us to live in this land, but we're gonna keep all of it for ourselves. That's the scandal of this. That's what I think like the original audience would've set up and like, wait a second here. Like, hold on. They didn't even plant the vineyards themselves. They didn't even build the tower themselves. That's really the force of this that I think we miss when we, when we overemphasize, trying to think through like what the original agricultural arrangements were. 'cause this is painted. Very different than what the original arrangements would've been typical for. Like this is a different scenario and I think intentionally so,  [00:52:09] Jesse Schwamb: and we need those words like rented, at least in English, to help us understand that it didn't belong to them. It wasn't a gift, right? It wasn't as if like it was just turned over in the sense that it belongs to you now do with it what you will. And it's very clear in the passage one, like you said, that the landowner does all those things. So it was a, you know, he completely set it up. I mean, this is just such a beautiful, I think, depiction of the hold of prophetic, you know, understanding of God's word here, but it's very clear that says the, he sent his slaves to the vine growers to receive his fruit. So you're right. The scandal is that they're like, well, obviously. They need to give him his fruits, like  [00:52:48] Tony Arsenal: right.  [00:52:48] Jesse Schwamb: It was all set up before he left on this long journey. He then turned it over to them to care for, and that was really all that they were supposed to do. They had no role in this. And so it does like lead us in into this weird space where it's like, well, well what, what did the Pharisees think they were trying to do themselves? What does actually Jesus commenting on, on their own, like licit on their own initiative here, is he basically saying that not only are they not respecting his sovereignty, but they were trying to claim for themselves what only rightly belongs to God that even their position right. Society in culture as their representatives, God himself, they wanted to take that over for themselves, which he does bring that condemnation upon them in other parts of the scripture. So again, this is really hot. I think it's a, it's both heat and light, but there's no doubt that there's fire to this, right? Because it's a direct indictment that God the father set all of this up. You yourselves are on rented property, but guess what? Even the property that you've rented, I'm not exacting a tax from you as if like you have put forward and grown or supplied or created some kind of profitable outcome here. And I just want a piece of that. He's not even talking about tithing in that sense. What he's basically saying is, none of this belongs to you. Like how? Right? How dare you? None of this is yours. I set all of this up and in fact, because you've done so poor poorly at this, I'm gonna take it away from you and give it to those who actually produce fruit and guess what's gonna be the Gentiles? So it's, there's a wild. Amounts of condemnation packed into a very small story.  [00:54:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. It really is.  [00:54:22] Tenants Add Nothing [00:54:22] Tony Arsenal: Um, there is nothing expected of these tenants. Right. There's no contract, like there's no terms, they, they really add nothing to the, the landowner's land, except I guess maybe they're the ones harvesting these, this fruit. Right. But even that's not explicit in the parable.  [00:54:43] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.  [00:54:43] Tony Arsenal: Right. Right. He, he does all just to steal your thunder, like he does all the verbs. Yes. All of the ves are done by the landowner.  [00:54:50] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Right  [00:54:51] Tony Arsenal: on. There is an implication that the, the tenants are somehow like the ones harvesting this, or they're the ones producing the wine, I guess, in the wine vat or the wine press. But at the end of the day. A normal tenant landowner agreement would be, I'm, you're, first of all, you're probably gonna pay me to use this land, right? You're paying me to use this land, and the way you pay me is you're gonna plant the, the gr the crop. You're gonna harvest it. You're gonna make the produce, and all I'm gonna do is let you live on this land. I'm gonna take the pro, like the profit, you're gonna pay me outta that profit. There is nothing asked or expected of these, these landowners, except to give the fruit that is already hit.  [00:55:36] Jesse Schwamb: Yes, exactly.  [00:55:37] Tony Arsenal: And, and that's where like, I think our Christian life, John Piper, I won't get into too much, but like John Piper is all in the news again for the same like finance, final salvation stuff that he's, he's been controversial for, for years. Right. And I think like this ties into that thi this is a, a direct parallel in many ways to the par, like the, the parable of the talents, which I'm, we we'll get into eventually is like. The, the landowner provides these talents or the, in this case, the land and the fruit. All of this is brought forth by his will and the fact that these, these worthless tenants do nothing and then still have the audacity to basically like refuse to. Provide back to this landowner what he has produced.  [00:56:25] Jesse Schwamb: Right? Yes. That's  [00:56:26] Tony Arsenal: the key. That's, that's really the point of this parable.  [00:56:29] Jesse Schwamb: Yep.  [00:56:29] Tony Arsenal: Is somehow the Pharisees, and I think where the application of this is probably where we'll go next time, is like somehow the Pharisees have got in their mind that this thing that God has done in the people of Israel and is now doing in the Messiah, this ministry of the Messiah, in coming to claim the fruit, that somehow they have a right to lay claim to that and to withhold it from the Father. [00:56:54] Jesse Schwamb: Yes.  [00:56:54] Tony Arsenal: Even though they had nothing to do with anything that brought about, its, its, uh, its occurrence. Right. The Pharisees didn't create the nation of Israel. They didn't create the gospel. They didn't create the Messiah, and somehow they think that they can withhold the fruit of that ministry from the father and take like lay claim to it for themselves. And this is where I think. We have to trust the Holy Spirit and trust Jesus because there's really nothing in the gospels that explain what they were doing that sort of like showed them trying to like take over the Messiah's inheritance, right? But that's what this parable teaches, is that that's what they're being criticized for, that they were somehow trying to usurp the position of the Messiah. They were trying to become the mediators. They were trying to become the sons of God or the son of God who interceded from God for God's people. They were the ones that were gonna do that. They were the ones that were gonna accomplish that. So I think what'll be interesting next week is when we come, come back to this parable and sort of try to talk about like what does that actually teach us as believers 2000 years later, who aren't Pharisees. We're not trying to do that. What does this have to do with us? What does this have to say to us?  [00:58:07] Wrap Up and Next Week [00:58:07] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah, I think you're entirely right and I'm looking forward to, uh, well, we'll wrap it up officially.  [00:58:13] Tony Arsenal: Yes.  [00:58:13] Jesse Schwamb: In, in that next episode, it's gonna be  [00:58:15] Tony Arsenal: probably  [00:58:16] Jesse Schwamb: totally, probably, it's like a 70% chance, honestly. Loved ones,  [00:58:21] Tony Arsenal: 70%, 50. [00:58:22] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah. There's definitely a meaningful material probability that that still won't be the last one once we get started, but we're gonna try. As always. I, I'm totally with you. I, I hope people take a little time to go read through this because I think the more we slow down and really try to set ourselves into the details and actually be particular about maybe envisioning the circumstances exactly as they're laid out for us and not as we sometimes try to fill out in our minds. I think maybe the biggest challenge that we've learned in this particular conversation is that verse 34, what is meant when the scripture says Now, when the harvest time approached. He that is the landowner sent his slaves to the vine growers to receive his fruit. And I think what you've challenged here is this idea of, well, it doesn't say like he sent to go get them to harvest it. Right. Just saying like, listen, it's my fruit. Like let's do this thing. Like you knew I would show up. I've left you to, to care for all these things which I put into place. So here I am, I've sent my people to come and receive the fruit. And, uh, they can't do it. They refuse to do it. They won't do it. Uh, they kill everybody whom he sends, including his own son. And so, you're right, it's not even here. We gotta be careful about the actions and of presuming that they here, like the Pharisees were these people who were in charge somehow of even harvesting. There's, there's actually no mention of that except for it was just harvest time.  [00:59:40] Tony Arsenal: Right?  [00:59:40] Jesse Schwamb: And so it's even there, I think it's purposely ambiguous to remind us that God is doing all the things. I'm a little embarrassed that I missed the phrase. God does all the verbs when I was literally saying. The landowner does all these verbs.  [00:59:53] Tony Arsenal: It's okay.  [00:59:54] Jesse Schwamb: The first sentence I, I've, I've fallen down on you loved ones. I'm so sorry I missed it,  [00:59:58] Tony Arsenal: Jesse. It's okay because God does all the verbs  [01:00:02] Jesse Schwamb: is factually. That is factually correct, so we'll give this one. One more shot because at least there's so much for us. We could do a whole series just on this one, and I think if you're tracking with us, you're probably discovering that we also, sometimes in real time, as we really spend a little bit of effort kind of speaking about the particulars, find that these parables are more chock full than you think. There isn't just one idea. There's often many ideas coalescing around. Yeah. The central theme and the setup in the context is important. The word choice is important, and I am as well, just as you were saying, blown away by the way in which Jesus really evokes from the audience here, their own condemnation, their own judicial decree, which is, yeah, he's gonna take those wretches and kick 'em out. And they're saying it about themselves. This is what sin does, isn't it? This is what the natural man is like. Ken has to bow down to this great sovereign justice that comes from God while at the same time they think in their self-righteousness. They're proclaiming that in somebody else, and what they're really doing is they're putting it on their own head apart from God. We are all like that. All of us are like this. So glory beats a God who through the Holy Spirit, opens our eyes to receive and to understand the gospel, to be changed by, to be transformed by it because he does all the verbs. I'm so grateful that that's in fact what he does, that that God has planted us, that he's pull a wall around us, that he stick out this wine press for us, that he's built a tower to protect us and that he has grown the fruit in us because of all the things that he has done. [01:01:42] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Well, this is normally the part of the episode where we would do all of our announcements, uh, which just shows you we are not great podcasters. 'cause really we should do that at the beginning of, of the episode. Uh, but you know what, like if you wanna know what all of our announcements are, you're just gonna have to come back next week. 'cause we are out of time. We're not gonna do that. So I, I know that that's the most cliff of all cliffhangers is if you have listened this far and you want to hear about Oliver of our housekeeping assignment, an announcements and whatnot, you're just gonna have to come back next week and listen to it. Uh, because as much as my brain is telling me I should tell you all about it now, I'm not going to. So, Jesse, until next time when people join us for our housekeeping announcements, honor everyone.  [01:02:31] Jesse Schwamb: Love the brotherhood. 
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