The Inequality Podcast

Philip Kitcher on the Erosion of Ethics in Policymaking 15.06.2026 49min

Beginning in the 1980s, a new political order led policymakers to prize economic efficiency, often at the expense of public goods. What has followed, our guest argues, has been a withdrawal of ethics from policy making, as well as an “erosion of kindness.” Our guest proposes a different ethos, one that hearkens back to a time before the pursuit of efficiency blinded us to other essential human values.Philip Kitcher is the John Dewey Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at Columbia. He is the author of more than a dozen books, including several that are integral to understanding contemporary inequality. In this conversation with host Steven Durlauf, he discusses the philosophical underpinnings of the market-driven worldview that has come to dominate policymaking, what that approach has wrought, and why charting a different path requires rethinking what education is for.

Michelle Jackson on the Overworked Labor Force 01.06.2026 52min

From Adam Smith’s pin factory to Henry Ford’s assembly line, specialization has long connoted a modern, efficient economy. Within this paradigm, workers’ jobs become repetitive but, ultimately, entail a narrow scope of tasks. So why, in today’s ultra-optimized economy, are so many supposedly specialized workers juggling so many wide and varied responsibilities? Michelle Jackson is a sociologist at Stanford. In her latest book, The Division of Rationalized Labor, she chronicles how today’s workers became saddled with so many tasks. Her previous book, Manifesto for a Dream, made the scientific case for more radical policy interventions to address inequality. In this conversation with host Steven Durlauf, she discusses how scopes of work ballooned across the economy, how police officers became unlikely symbols of that change, and why reducing inequality may require rethinking the role of the family.

Tom VanHeuvelen on the Future of Organized Labor 18.05.2026 35min

It is no secret that the power of American unions has waned since the middle of the 20th century. Their downturn has had far-reaching consequences: As the threat of organized labor recedes, employers may feel less pressure to offer concessions. Our guest today has done significant work studying the decline of the labor movement and its repercussions for workers, unionized or not. Few are better positioned to reflect on how we got here, how it has changed American society, and what lies ahead.Tom VanHeuvelen is a sociologist at the University of Minnesota. His research examines the long-term causes and consequences of deunionization and other drivers of inequality. In this conversation with host Geoff Wodtke, he discusses the often-overlooked benefits of unions, the rise of “right-to-work” laws, and what the future of unionization may look like.

Leslie McCall on Intersectional Inequality, AI, and Meritocracy 04.05.2026 56min

Inequality is often framed in terms of a binary: rich and poor, haves and have nots. But inequality between groups — based on gender, class, race, and so on — must be understood alongside inequalities within particular groups, at particular intersections of identity. Our guest today has contributed foundational work to this intellectual framework. She has also enriched our understanding of how Americans feel about their economic prospects in an era of high inequality.Leslie McCall is a professor of sociology and political science at the CUNY Graduate Center and associate director of the Stone Center there. She is the author of Complex Inequality: Gender, Class, and Race in the New Economy, a landmark study of wage inequality, as well as her most recent book, The Undeserving Rich: American Beliefs About Inequality, Opportunity, and Redistribution, which chronicles Americans’ shifting attitudes about the economy. In this conversation with host Steven Durlauf, she discusses her work examining inequality and Americans’ beliefs about it, as well as what her findings might tell us about meritocracy and the effects of artificial intelligence on the labor market.

Joe Soss on Welfare Reform and ‘Legal Plunder’ 20.04.2026 48min

To a large degree, the levels of inequality present in the United States intensified in the 1980s and 1990s. Starting in those decades, the poorest Americans began facing new threats, such as the “reforms” made to social welfare programs and the rise of mass incarceration. Our guest today has spent 30 years studying how politics and policy have shaped the lives of America’s poor, and his new book explores a lesser-known trend, one that persists today: the massive revenues the legal system extracts from the poor, a phenomenon he calls “legal plunder.”Joe Soss is the Cowles Chair for the Study of Public Service at the University of Minnesota. His most recent book (with sociologist Joshua Page) is Legal Plunder: The Predatory Dimensions of Criminal Justice. In this conversation with host Geoff Wodtke, Soss discusses the mechanisms through which the legal system strips resources from the poor, as well as how poverty governance became defined by “neoliberal paternalism,” which he chronicled in his first book, Disciplining the Poor.

Mario Small on Networks and Urban Poverty 06.04.2026 54min

We all belong to networks. Whether in the boardroom or the barroom, human beings use networks to try to achieve their goals. But not all networks are created equal, and so access to them (or the lack thereof) can drive inequality. At the same time, the networks with which we identify most — such as friends, family and colleagues — are often not the connections that prove most decisive. Rather, as our guest today has argued, it is weak ties that frequently leave the strongest influence on the course of our lives.Mario Small is a sociologist at Columbia University. He is the author of Unanticipated Gains: Origins of Network Inequality in Everyday Life, and his work has explored how networks shape both mobility and inequality. In this conversation with host Steven Durlauf, Small discusses core insights from his 20-plus years studying urban inequality, advice for blending quantitative and qualitative methods, and the surprisingly potent networks that emerge around New York City daycare centers.

Kim Bowes on Ancient Romans’ Economic Lives 23.03.2026 51min

Among ancient civilizations, Rome inspires a special kind of fascination in the Western World. While the parallels between society now versus then are often overstated, we nevertheless can better understand ourselves by endeavoring to understand those who lived 2,000 years ago. Our guest’s work explores one facet of Roman life that reverberates in the way we live today: the surprisingly sophisticated financial affairs of average Romans. Kim Bowes is a professor of classical studies at the University of Pennsylvania. Her latest book is Surviving Rome: The Economic Lives of the Ninety Percent. The book draws on her own archeological work to chronicle Romans’ struggles with work, affordability, credit markets, and more. In this conversation with host Steven Durlauf, she discusses the ways consumerism defined plebeian life, the challenges of collecting data about the ancient world, and what the skeletons of Roman farmers can tell us about the economic lives they lived.

Joseph Stiglitz on Pioneering the Economics of Inequality 09.03.2026 44min

Across three seasons of The Inequality Podcast, thinkers from a range of disciplines have discussed how their work helps us understand inequality. Given the breadth and depth of the research featured, it is difficult to believe that the subject was once an afterthought in economics. For our 50th episode, we present a scholar whose groundbreaking ideas have proven integral to the study of inequality for over a half century, anticipating many current arguments and representing the foundations for others.Joseph Stiglitz is a Nobel laureate and a professor of economics at Columbia University. He is the author of many books, the most recent of which is The Origins of Inequality, and Policies to Contain It. In this conversation with host Steven Durlauf, he discusses his 60-year career studying the economics of inequality, including his influential studies of labor markets, his tenure working in the Clinton White House, and his thoughts on how AI might shape inequality.

René Flores on Immigration Enforcement and ‘Social Illegality’ 23.02.2026 44min

As part of the current immigration crackdown, federal agents have turned to profiling, making stops on the basis of occupation or perceived ethnicity. In a system where confirming legal status can take days or weeks, agents are finding shortcuts in stereotypes. Aside from the dubious constitutionality of these stops, the assumptions behind these tactics raise questions: What makes someone look illegal? According to whom? And how do these perceptions emerge?René Flores is an associate professor of sociology at the University of Chicago. His work investigates how social boundaries form around immigrants and racial minorities and how these divisions contribute to inequality. In this conversation with host Geoff Wodtke, Flores discusses the complicated views Americans express about immigrants in surveys, how those views affect immigrants and non-immigrants alike, and how a perception of “social illegality” can extend beyond actual documentation status.

Immigration, Assimilation, and Intergenerational Mobility, Featuring Ran Abramitzky and Leah Boustan 09.02.2026 49min

Immigration has once again taken center stage in the United States. While the federal government’s crackdown continues to unfold, the ideas driving immigration politics are far from new. Concerns about economic competition and cultural assimilation would have been familiar to Americans a century ago. Yet research from our guests demonstrates that many of the commonly held beliefs about immigrants are, in fact, largely myths.Economists Ran Abramitzky and Leah Boustan are the authors of Streets of Gold: America’s Untold Story of Immigrant Success. They are responsible for groundbreaking work in the study of economic history, finding inventive ways to harness both qualitative and quantitative methods. In this conversation with host Steven Durlauf, they discuss misconceptions about the economics of immigration, the persistence of upward mobility among the children of immigrants, and what those children’s names might tell us about cultural assimilation.This conversation was recorded in October.

Sven Beckert on How Capitalism Won 26.01.2026 51min

There is an old cliche about imagining the end of capitalism. But explaining the rise of capitalism presents its own challenges. Human beings have congregated in marketplaces for millennia. When did simple barter and trade tip into what we call capitalism? And why did that particular system conquer the world? Answering such questions requires an interdisciplinary approach, and perhaps there is no better starting place than with experts in the two fields that have the most skin in this game: economists, who study capitalism’s inner workings, and historians, who chronicle how humanity got here.Sven Beckert is a professor of history at Harvard. His new book is Capitalism, and it chronicles how human history was transformed by this relatively recent advent. In this conversation with host (and economist) Steven Durlauf, Beckert discusses slavery’s role in the development of capitalism, why it took hold across the globe, and what, if anything, may spell its demise.

Jonathan Levy on What Really Makes Up ‘The Economy’ 12.01.2026 53min

Economics as a discipline holds particular authority among the social sciences. The field owes its heft in part to the sophistication of its methods and models, both of which seem to grow ever more intricate. But what if in its quest for more complex techniques, mainstream economics is overlooking basic yet essential questions: For one, what is the economy?Jonathan Levy is a historian at Sciences Po. His latest book is The Real Economy, which critiques contemporary economics and draws on historical analysis to posit a new conception of “the economy.” He is also the author of Ages of American Capitalism, which chronicles the evolution of the U.S. economy. In this conversation, he discusses his work, what Keynes learned from Freud, and what economists can learn from historians with host Steven Durlauf.

A New History of Equality, Featuring Darrin McMahon, Jonathan Levy, Jenny Trinitapoli, and Steven Durlauf 29.12.2025 57min

With the university closed for its winter recess, we are sharing a favorite recording from the Stone Center’s archives. It is a live panel discussion about Equality: The History of an Elusive Idea, a book by Dartmouth history professor Darrin McMahon. The book is an intellectual feast, spanning centuries and bursting with insight about humanity’s quest to realize one of its highest, most fraught ideals: equality.The discussion includes the book’s author, as well as Jonathan Levy, today a historian at Sciences Po; Jenny Trinitapoli, a sociologist at UChicago; and Steven Durlauf, the Stone Center’s director and a co-host of this podcast.This event was recorded in May 2024.

Lena Edlund on Women, Wealth, and Opportunity 15.12.2025 41min

Over the past century, women’s roles in society have been transformed. It is straightforward enough to list changes in norms — around marriage, sex, jobs, and more. What is less obvious is how these updated norms have reshaped economies. Relationships have shifted between men and women, between women and their workplaces, and between the state and the family. The challenge now is evaluating the success of this new order: What has truly changed, and where is there more work to be done?Lena Edlund is an Associate Professor of Economics at Columbia University. Her research interrogates the economics of gender and family, drawing on a range of other fields, including anthropology and evolutionary biology. In this conversation, she discusses her work on a variety of topics — from the long history of marriage, to contemporary gender gaps in wealth and voting patterns — with host Steven Durlauf.

Stephen Raudenbush on Creating ‘Ambitious’ Schools 01.12.2025 44min

Over the past several decades, American schools have improved significantly. The drastic gaps in achievement and funding that defined the early-to-mid 20th century have lessened, yielding an education system that, while not perfect, is far better than it was a generation or two ago. Even so, these gaps remain most pronounced for the students who start school with the fewest advantages, and research shows that efforts to close such gaps must begin early. How can schools better meet the needs of these students—and catch up with their peers throughout the developed world?Stephen Raudenbush is the Lewis-Sebring Distinguished Service Professor in the Department of Sociology, the College, and the Harris School of Public Policy. He is among the most influential sociologists living today, with contributions spanning methodological advances to landmark studies of neighborhood conditions, crime, and schools. In this conversation, he discusses his research on schools and key insights from his book, The Ambitious Elementary School, with host Geoff Wodtke.

Doug Downey on ‘How Schools Really Matter’ 17.11.2025 45min

From the Great Society to No Child Left Behind, policymakers from both parties have argued America’s schools are broken and need fixing. These failing schools, the thinking goes, exacerbate the inequality between advantaged groups and everyone else. But this approach comes with risks. For one, how might that focus on education overlook other, potentially more consequential sources of inequality? And are America’s schools really that bad?Doug Downey is a professor of sociology at The Ohio State University. In his book, How Schools Really Matter, he argues that schools do more to reduce inequality than previously assumed. More pernicious sources of inequality, he writes, are found elsewhere — and, unfortunately, may require policy changes that are more politically inconvenient than education reform. On this episode, he discusses his work with host Geoff Wodtke.

Nicole Fortin on the Economic Progress of Women 03.11.2025 39min

Inequality along gender lines stubbornly persists both in the United States and abroad. In addition, measuring the relative importance of its varied causes can be difficult. But creative approaches to study design and decomposition methods have yielded new insights. Today’s guest is responsible for many of them.Nicole Fortin is a professor at the Vancouver School of Economics at the University of British Columbia. She is also a director of the Stone Centre on Wealth and Income Inequality at UBC. In this conversation with host Steven Durlauf, Fortin discusses her research on gender inequality in the workforce and higher education, as well as how deunionization and AI have reshaped the labor market.

Damon Jones on Household Finance and Racial Inequality 20.10.2025 47min

A sudden loss of income can devastate a household’s financial health, just as a payment from the government can bolster it. The extent of the change in fortune — for good or ill — depends on factors such as household savings, which are, in turn, influenced by other forces, including racial inequality and economic policy. In short, understanding household finance requires grappling with myriad variables — many of which are covered in this wide-ranging conversation.Damon Jones is an associate professor and associate director of the Stone Center for Research on Wealth Inequality and Mobility at the University of Chicago Harris School of Public Policy. He is also a co-host of The Inequality Podcast. On this episode, he discusses his work with fellow co-host and Stone Center director Steven Durlauf, covering income shocks and their implications for racial inequality, Black economists’ contributions to the field, universal basic income, and more.

Joseph Fishkin on ‘Bottlenecks’ and Democracy 06.10.2025 49min

“Equal opportunity” is a powerful and popular idea. But in both theory and practice, actually equalizing opportunity may not always be the right goal. For example, a parent raising a child makes a million decisions large and small that will impact that child’s opportunities. Truly equalizing opportunity might mean standardizing many parental decisions, stripping parents of their agency and personality. Is that an ideal worth striving for? This conversation explores the idea of opportunity pluralism—the view that instead of aiming for perfectly equal opportunities, we should focus on expanding the range of paths through which people can thrive—an approach that could help disrupt the cycle in which limited options for most people keep power concentrated in the hands of a few.Joseph Fishkin is a professor of law at UCLA. His book, Bottlenecks: A New Theory of Equal Opportunity, argues that society should focus less on equalizing opportunity and more on removing unnecessary obstacles to human flourishing. His latest book, The Anti-Oligarchy Constitution: Reconstructing the Economic Foundations of American Democracy, traces the history of a once-robust thread of political thought: that constitutional democracy is incompatible with the concentration of economic power. He discusses his work on “bottlenecks” and democracy with host Steven Durlauf.

Alexander Monge-Naranjo on the College Affordability Crisis 22.09.2025 31min

Choosing a college is one of the biggest financial decisions a young adult will make. It’s no secret that college is expensive, and that lower-income students often require more assistance to manage those high costs. What’s less well known is how access to credit—or the lack thereof—can enhance or reduce inequality.Alexander Monge-Naranjo is a vice president at the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta. His work has examined college choice, financing, and repayment decisions. He joins host Steven Durlauf to discuss his research on education financing in the United States, place-based disadvantages in Latin America, and their impact on mobility.