Betrayal Trauma Recovery

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• Here’s What to Know Before “Affordable Relationship Counseling Near Me” 30.06.2026 31Min.

  If you’ve searched for “affordable relationship counseling near me,” it’s important to know these five things before you schedule an appointment. FIVE THINGS TO KNOW BEFORE SCHEDULING AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME 1. A RELATIONSHIP COUNSELOR PROBABLY WON’T TELL YOU THEY CAN’T HELP YOU Most relationship therapists genuinely want to help, and they believe they have the right training and tools to help you. If helping couples overcome issues is their business and livelihood, it’s natural they don’t want to turn people away. However, many relationship counselors don’t really understand how emotional abuse works and how to screen for it. No matter what they do to help you, it will not help, and that lack of clarity can keep you in harm’s way longer, which benefits the counselor and the abuser…not you. So it’s really important to learn about emotional abuse first. 2. A RELATIONSHIP COUNSELOR WON’T TAKE SIDES, EVEN IF ONLY ONE PERSON IS THE PROBLEM A core part of relationship counseling ethics is that the counselor is not supposed to take sides. And that makes sense. But if your husband is abusive then it’s unethical to treat this as a couple problem when it’s not.  Even if the therapist says, “This is emotional abuse and I can still help you.” That’s not a thing. Because if he’s lying, he’s going to use those couple sessions to continue to lie and manipulate. 3. TALK THERAPY WON’T HELP IF HE HAS A HISTORY OF LYING OR MANIPULATION If your husband is lying, deflecting, or rewriting reality then, therapy is just gonna be more of that. There’s no way to convince somebody not to lie and manipulate, and you won’t know they’re doing it. Stay to the end—I’ll show you what the women in our community say they wish they’d known sooner. 4. MANY, MANY WOMEN HAVE BEEN HARMED BY “AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME” After more than a decade of doing this work and hearing from hundreds of women who started by searching “affordable relationship counseling near me” or were referred by a friend, a clear pattern shows up. Many, many women have been extremely harmed by couples therapists who did not know that they witnessed emotional abuse inside their offices. In some cases, what the women shared in sessions was later used against them at home or in court. 5. PROGRESS CAN BE MEASURED BY YOUR FEELINGS, NOT BY HIS CHANGED BEHAVIOR  Therapists rely on what they’re witnessing inside of that session. So if your husband says he’s improving, if he says he gets it, if he says he’s sorry, then the therapist is like, “Look, he’s sorry.” They can’t witness his behavior over time, like you do at home. So you know more about this than they do, and you can trust your instincts about it. To find out if your husband is using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test. In this interview, Aliya shares what it looked like when the “expert” she trusted blurred lines in ways that felt increasingly difficult to make sense of. TRANSCRIPT: ONE WOMAN’S STORY OF UNETHICAL AFFORDABELE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Aliya. A so-called domestic abuse expert exploited her. Welcome, Aliya. Aliya: Thank you. Anne: Let’s start with how you met him. Aliya: I met him online through his network, taking classes and such. After I took a couple of classes with him, I started splitting time with him or co-counseling with him. Which was designed to help people discharge emotion. So if you have stuck trauma or PTSD experiences, you can get with a co-counselor and listen to each other, and hopefully discharge all that stuck trauma by crying, laughing, screaming or trembling. Anne: Were you paying for his services? Aliya: There was no payment. No, not at all. In fact, the attitude was, “I am doing you a favor. You’re the special chosen one. You get to help me. Everybody would love to be with me, but I chose you.” Anne: Oh, so he chose you to be his client? But you didn’t have to pay him and you were special, and so you also got to work for him. HE SAID, “I’M THE BEST CO-COUNSELOR HE HAS EVER HAD” Aliya: At first, I was co-counseling with him as though he were a counselor, but I was also taking turns as the “counselor”. Ultimately, I ended up moving to the state where he lives. There were supposed to be a lot of in-person events. Started helping him teach these classes and do administrative tasks and things like that, in addition to now co-counseling in person. And that’s where things got a little weird for me. Anne: So there’s a double relationship happening here where you’re working for him, but he’s also your counselor in this arrangement. Aliya: Exactly. Anne: In therapeutic circles, this is called a dual relationship. It’s unethical. It’s against the therapeutic ethics rules and is something people need to know before they search for affordable relationship counseling near me. But in his case, he’s not a therapist. This marriage therapy isn’t working. Can you talk about how like it first felt? Aliya: Sure, it felt great at first. Here’s this guy with all this knowledge and expertise, and he’s flattering me. He’s doing the love bombing thing, although we’re not in a romantic relationship. He is telling me how smart I am, and how inspiring it is to know me and all those kind of things. I’m just wonderful and can do no wrong. And I’m the best co-counselor he has ever had and all that. He would reach out and touch my hair and tell me how great my hair looks, and say, “Any excuse to come over and see you.” When he would come over to work on administrative stuff. So there were some double messages. “My life is so much better now that you’re in it,” things like that. HE STARTED CROSSING MORE ETHICAL BOUNDARIES Aliya: It felt very personal. He was constantly flattering me and complimenting me. A male friend had to point this out to me. “When was the last time I reached out and casually touched a man’s hair? Never.” And if I did that to him. He would’ve been offended, because now I crossed a boundary. But it was okay for him to do that to me. And then it got really hairy for me, because we started cuddling. We were on the couch together a lot and I was soaking up all this affection and warmth, and that worked on me emotionally. Anne: I am so, so sorry. He’s the expert, preying on vulnerable women. To hear that he’s cuddling people, that he’s doing pseudo professional coaching slash therapy. It sounds like a mess. I am so sorry. This is definitely affordable relationship counseling near me gone wrong. There were lots of signs of an abusive therapist in this situation. Aliya: When things took a turn, it was subtle at first. He used a few subtle put downs, and then not show up on time or cancel. Anne: Just for our listeners, so that they can hear what maybe a subtle put down might sound like, can you think of any examples? Aliya: The first one that came to mind, we served on a committee with one other person. She was on Zoom, and we were here in my house. and I said, “I’m getting milk to put in my tea.” I used Muscle Milk. He gave this disgusted look and went. “Well, is it even milk?” Just things like that. Why are you sitting over there instead of over here with us? I mean, things of no consequence whatsoever. But he felt the need to say something. I COULD FEEL THE SHIFT IN AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME Aliya: One time when I said something to him, he got very distracted and started looking at his phone and doing all kinds of things that typically abusive men would do. That he had never done before. So I could feel it shifting a little bit at that point. I was still co-counseling with him, and we co-counselled just about every single Friday. I helped him teach classes, helped him do his calendar and plan for the future, and maybe do a retreat. There was supposed to be a retreat, twice a year. I think there was one retreat in two years. So none of it was really panning out. There was not a single in-person event for two years. That was the administrative work. But during sessions, we would typically take 45 minutes each and take turns talking. And there’s a no advice rule, so you don’t give anybody any advice. But he would encourage me to get in touch with the pain, trauma and fear. And it could get pretty intense at times. I felt like he was getting bored with me. This affordable relationship counseling near me wasn’t feeling good. EVERYONE IN HIS ORGANIZATION IS VOLUNTEER Anne: How soon did you see that his actions and his words didn’t match? Aliya: He maintained his facade for maybe five or six months. And then it was, “Oh, I’m busy. Oh, I’m going to be late. Oh, I have to cancel, et cetera.” There was a time when the other person on this administrative committee with me, we were meeting every week supposedly. But he canceled at least half the time. And she said, “Why don’t we just meet once a month? Why don’t we schedule it differently?” And he got angry about that. He wanted us to be available every single Tuesday. In case he felt like showing up. Anne: So when he starts to be like, maybe you should get another co-counselor. So you would start paying this new co-counselor, or is everything in his organization volunteer and nobody pays anybody anything? Aliya: It’s all volunteer. It’s peer counseling. You’re doing it together. Everybody’s supposed to be equal. And no power hierarchy, although that’s a false premise. Because he’s somewhat of a well-known guru, and lots of women look up to him. He said he wanted a different co-counselor. Like he was done with me. He was gonna look for somebody else. But he didn’t actually address that properly. In fact, we did not stop co-counseling for at least another year after that. IT’S A LITTLE CULTISH Anne: It sounds very wishy washy. If someone isn’t paying for services, there’s no professional relationship in terms of the exchange of a fee is it like a church? What’s going on? Aliya: And it’s not well defined. That is the problem. I mean, you’re paying with your time, so you get 45 minutes. I get 45 minutes. If we have to cut it short on your turn, then I owe you the remainder of the time. Everything has to be equal in that regard. And nobody gets to dominate the conversation. Nobody gets one way time unless you agree to make it up later. It’s not well-defined. Anne: Which is hard because if you’re not paying them, how would you define that relationship? It kind of sounds a little bit commune-ish. Did it feel like that? Aliya: It’s a little cultish. And I think that’s his desire is to have a commune, really. Anne: Oh really? Aliya: Yeah. Anne: Living in a place where someone else made me dinner, but they didn’t necessarily live in my house. Doesn’t that sound good to everyone in some ways? WHEN AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME IS CENTERED ON THE “EXPERT” Anne: So because you were in administration, was it working for other people? I’m assuming most of the “co counselors” volunteering in this network were women co-counseling other women. Was he the only man? Aliya: There were two or three other men. One who was pretty consistent, because he was doing all the IT stuff for free also. And there was one other guy that just came and went. But yes, 99% of the participants are women. He is a harem builder. Anne: If you didn’t have him as your co-counselor and you had another woman. Was it working out for everybody else? Was this affordable relationship counseling near me benefitting others? Aliya: I did co-counsel with a woman for a while, and yeah, I think some people were benefiting from it, but at the same time have to understand, these are just lay people. It’s not necessarily safe for people. And so it’s a little iffy, And I think sometimes it just devolves. Anne: From your experience, what warnings would you have for people when they’re looking for a resource? Aliya: Pay attention to your gut, of course. There were moments along the way when I thought to myself, this is not gonna end well for me, because I noticed him treating other people poorly. HE’S ROLE PLAYING Aliya: I just blindly trusted this person. His written work was so impressive. It had helped me so much that I couldn’t believe he could be a perpetrator. Anne: Yeah, I’ve recommended books in the past. Then we heard back from women who went to that author for services. It surprised me because their services didn’t seem in line with what was on the page. And of course, it is hard for me because this is what I do. And I’m not perfect. So people could meet me and be like, oh my word, she was not as nice as I thought or something. Maybe ’cause I had a stomach ache. You never know. There’s that saying, “Never meet your heroes.” Because the written word is edited, it’s different than meeting someone in person. I guess what I’m asking is in meeting him, was it a feeling like he didn’t understand his own stuff? Does that make sense? Did it feel like there was a disconnect that he was play acting what he knew was the right answer? Aliya: That’s a good description actually: he’s role playing. So he can be very empathic and know all the right things to say. But there’s no depth to it. As long as it doesn’t require anything of him, he can be kind and supportive because he doesn’t have a dog in the fight. It’s only when there’s a conflict with him that his true colors come out. MAKE SURE BOUNDARIES ARE CLEARLY DEFINED Anne: Well, and if you’re in a commune, I’ll call it that. There’s gonna be some conflicts. If you don’t set it up as like, “Hey, I am a professional. You’ll be paying me for my services. This is how long our sessions will be.” That’s how it’s set up here at BTR. There’s no one with a dual relationship. Accredited coaching schools train our coaches. Plus divorce coaching certifications and all those certifications that our coaches have here. They are the best emotional support groups online. There’s some clearly defined boundaries. So if someone’s setting it up as a friendship or a relationship of equals, that’s a different situation. That means he’s not in charge. It means he can’t call the shots because of the way it’s set up. Even though it’s affordable relationship counseling near me. Aliya: Right, theoretically. Yes, we’re all supposed to be equals. Anne: I think this is a lesson for women in terms of their spouses. Is that you can go to couple therapy with your spouse. You can get them all the right information. They can regurgitate the right information back to you, supposedly understand all of the principles of abuse. They could understand the principles of healthy living. But then not actually believe it or use it. I think that’s surprising to people. AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME: HE’S DOING IT ON PURPOSE Anne: Like with my ex, he went to therapy for a long time. He could talk about addiction recovery, recite the 12 steps. He knew it very, very well. And really acted like he was in recovery. So the difference between knowing something and either believing it or using it or having it in Christian terms, sort of written upon your heart. Sometimes Christians use that terminology. I think it’s surprising to people that somebody can live in those two worlds. Especially, like a lot of Christians come to BTR for help, knowing that their husband reads the Bible, goes to church or purports to be a Christian. He knows everything, but he doesn’t do it. It’s shocking. Aliya: It is shocking to realize that he wrote that book, which is so well known and so helpful. I still say the book helped me tremendously, even though I now consider it more of an autobiography. Yeah, it’s a weird disconnect. That if you have a conflict with him, he starts demonstrating all the abusive tactics he wrote about. And I even think it’s a little more sinister than that. I think he knows what he’s doing, and he’s doing it on purpose because he enjoys it. So he gets women to come to him, surround him, help him with his work, engage with him, display all their emotional wounds to him, and then it’s fun for him to do the big discard. Yeah, very hurtful. WHEN THE “EXPERT” DOESN’T VALUE PEOPLE Aliya: I talked to five or six other women who have worked with him and not been paid. Or maybe gone out with him a couple of times and had it end badly. He doesn’t value people. People are interchangeable to him. It could be me one day and somebody else the next day. That’s what I didn’t understand. How can you sit and open your heart to somebody, and really to them, you’re still a nobody? He could just replace you. I noticed too late that in the process of co-counseling with him for two years, my mental health was declining. I was starting to feel more depressed. And I was wondering, is he gonna cancel this week or is he not? I was new in the area and he wouldn’t introduce me to anybody, because that was against his rules because he was absolutely adamant that we could not be friends. So I had to listen to him talk about his friends and activities around here, and though we have things in common, he would never introduce me to anybody. So I felt dependent on him, and he knew it and encouraged it. I was trying to run it for him. Me and another woman were trying to run it. He just had other things he would prefer to do. But most people in the organization were there to see him, because he’s the famous author with a head full of knowledge. So it died down quite a bit. And then we had a big fracture, he and I did. Because I started to feel suicidal. HE WASN’T THERE FOR ME WHEN I REALLY NEEDED HIM Aliya: He offered me a safe word to use in case I was really distraught. I could text him this word and he would know, and he would respond, and we could split some time together. Well, a few months went by and I used the word. He said he didn’t feel well and needed to cancel. That was for Friday. So I said, okay. He said, “We’ll do it Monday”. And I said, okay. Then on Saturday he changed the time for Monday. And then on Monday he told me he was feeling a lot better. So he would get back to me after he went and hung out with his friends. And he would let me know if he was available. And at that point I said, “No, thank you. I’m good. I don’t need to talk to you.” Anne: That’s very strange, that someone would not be like, okay, here’s the suicide hotline or something. Just putting you off rather than an actual suicide service. Or even say to them, “You know what? Suicide is not my area of expertise. I’m worried about you. I hope you can find the resources you need.” Even a frank, “This is outside of my scope of knowledge.” At BTR, because of confidentiality reasons, we don’t ever call any hotlines for anyone. But we would encourage someone to do it themselves. Like, you might be searching for affordable relationship counseling near me and need something outside of our scope. But to be like, I’m the end all, be all for everything. I’m so sorry, that’s wrong. AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME: I THINK IT WAS A SETUP Aliya: I think it was a setup in a way. It was his idea to have a safe word, and then he didn’t honor it. That caused a rift in the organization, because I was front and center in the organization. I answered his emails, helped him with his classes, and started groups for him. The one woman on the committee with me said, “Oh my gosh, wolf in sheep’s clothing. This is awful. I can’t believe it. I’m so sorry.” And the people started to think, well, where’s Aliya? What happened to her? Why isn’t she here? People wondered what happened. And I didn’t give a lot of details. I just said, “It’s not working for me. I’m moving on.” I thought it would be easy for him to generate a whole new group. And he has, they’ve started new classes. It sounds like they’ve had a retreat. The other woman on the committee with me called me and said, “Where are you?” Why aren’t you here?” And I was crying. I told her. She says to me, “Listen, I can’t fault him for something I didn’t witness.” I just said, “Do you really think he would behave that way if there were a witness?” And yeah, she didn’t respond to that. He’s so skilled at manipulating people. She’s a professional in some capacity who works with abused women too. It was horrifying. The betrayal in this affordable relationship counseling near me was amazing. So now she’s taken over most of my positions with him. The part that adds insult to injury is that he flipped the whole thing, blamed the whole thing on me. IT’S NOT MY FAULT HE’S NOT TRUSTWORTHY Aliya: I ended up feeling like it was my fault. Then I started to realize, wait a minute, this guy does not practice what he preaches at all. I just thought I could trust him. Like if you can trust anybody, it would be him, you know? And he knows that. Yeah, it’s not my fault that he is not trustworthy. He’s extremely good at his game. He’s so good. Anne: I’ve had other women who have been abused by therapists come on to talk about it. And the patterns are they’re not paying them or they’re not requesting pay. The sessions go longer than they’re supposed to. Physical contact, contact outside the session. It’s become like your social network. It kind of has a feeling of a church. ‘Cause it’s not like you’re paying and you’re all working together instead of professional services in this type of affordable relationship counseling near me. So those are some of the red flags. Aliya: Yeah, I agree. We did plenty of that, like emailing, texting, and things. So it wasn’t clean in any way. There were no well-defined parameters. I couldn’t tell, are we friends? Are we just working together? I’m working for him, but he is not paying me. We’re counseling together as peers, but I’m making myself vulnerable. He’s really not. That slowly dawned on me that he would stick to the same surfacey topics over and over again. HE’S A BAD ACTOR Aliya: Although he fancies himself an actor. If he wanted to cry, he got a photograph and sat down and looked at it and made himself cry. All just really weird stuff. Snuggling on the couch, even lying down on the couch a couple of times. Which was really strange for me, because I have a history of childhood sexual abuse, and it is bringing up a lot of stuff for me. But he takes it as, “Well, you know, it’s easier to cry it all out if you’re being held.” Very confusing, yeah. Like I know one woman who worked with him collaborated with him. So she asked him out, and he flew into a rage over it. When things go south like they did with me, he’s gonna say one of two things, either. Well, she just couldn’t accept that I wouldn’t socialize with her. He said that about me. Anne: This is someone who’s, sorry, I just have to interrupt and say, says someone who will snuggle with you on the couch. Aliya: Right. Yeah, and then the other thing that he always says is, “I’m a little concerned about her mental health.” So he said that about me too. He wasn’t really that concerned. Anne: He caused your mental health issues. Aliya: It was a huge betrayal. Like an arsonist, set a fire, and then run and hide in the bushes and sit and watch when the firetruck comes. ‘Cause he wrote the book, and then he gets everybody to trust him, and then he does what’s in the book. AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME: ABUSERS DO NOT LIKE STRUCTURE Aliya: Imagine the power he gets out of that, it’s sick. I use the word evil because I didn’t think of another word. It’s really sinister. Anne: The whole situation is sinister because of the lack of boundaries and the lack of structure. They do not like structure, because then they can’t do what they want, when they want it. So while it is affordable relationship counseling near me, there’s a huge emotional cost. And they have a hard time with divorce decrees, for example. And they have a hard time with things like what does the Bible says about divorce. They want her to follow rules to the T but they don’t mind just doing whatever they want. So having the structure of his organization be so wishy-washy and structureless, he gets to do whatever he wants in whatever way he wants. And if someone isn’t paying to have him be there at a certain time, he can cancel. Aliya: Yeah, and he still thought I would do administrative tasks for him after all this happened. Anne: I’m so sorry that this happened to you, and especially on top of your own story, which we haven’t talked about, that you went through abuse with your husband and then had this experience on top of it. When your husband is abusing you and you don’t recognize it, and finally you do, and you try to go for help. But it’s another thing when the people that are supposed to help you, it could be a therapist, clergy or abuse specialist, worsen things. You don’t know what is happening. THIS BETRAYAL WAS WORSE THAN MY HUSBAND’S Aliya: Yeah, they felt so different. Because with my ex-husband, as you said, I didn’t really notice or realize what was happening at first. And then when I did, I made a clean break from him. But this person was touting himself as a champion of women and a great support and totally understands what you’ve been through. And that betrayal felt worse to me, because he totally does understand. He’s written about what it does to women psychologically and emotionally, and how devastating it is. He knows full well what he is doing, and that to me is worse. Anne: Well, thank you for coming to talk about your experience with affordable relationship counseling near me. This is really important. I do wanna stress that unsafe resources can come from women, they can come from men. They can come from anyone. In the court system, for example, we have victims who are dealing with super abusive guardian ad litems who are women and men. That’s hard too, realizing that any resource could be unsafe. And then knowing what to look for so that you can find safe support. I think the other part is making sure that if you’re isolated and everyone who has been through abuse is isolated. That you are also creating friendships besides the professional support you’re relying on. So finding a quilting group, a church, or a hiking group, or some outside resource is really important as well. That can keep you grounded and help you heal. Cause I think abuse victims can heal in any way. And they find their voice after emotional abuse. SAFE CONNECTIONS MATTER Anne: But having a friend who cares about you, who you can talk to every day and go for a walk with and go to a movie, is really important. We should not underestimate real life connections with real people who are our friends and family over professional support, over affordable relationship counseling near me. And that’s the hard part. So many people don’t understand abuse. There are so many victims who can’t think of anybody in real life that they trust. I talk about this in the Living Free Workshop. If you have no one you can trust, coming to BTR. Going to our Betrayal Trauma Recovery group sessions, going to betrayal trauma individual sessions is great. I think it’s very important that things are defined clearly. That’s something here at BTR we take very seriously. So our group sessions have a hour and a half time limit, and our individual sessions have a 50 minute time limit. Women pay for services. We are all paid. That’s one reason why BTR does not recommend other resources. It’s not that an other resource couldn’t be amazing, it’s just that we don’t actually know what happens behind the scenes. And then also hopefully starting to make friends in your area somehow some way. I know that’s hard and overwhelming, but that’s gonna make a big difference. Being able to have people in real life who are your actual friends to support you. Did you find that after falling out with him, because a lot of your friends were part of the organization, that you were then isolated? Aliya: Yep, definitely. FINDING A SAFE AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME NETWORK Aliya: I lost friends in the organization for sure. But I have also made some friends here, so I’ve got a little network. I’ve only been here two years, so it takes awhile, but I feel like I’m making friends. One of my friends back home called it way before it came to a head, and she said, listen, if you wanna hang in there with him, I still love you. I’m not judging you, but you just need to know it’s not gonna end well for you. And she was right, and she still loves me. She’s not judging me, she’s still my friend. So I actually appreciate honesty like that. Anne: We stand with you, having been through it myself with my ex and other exploitative people who have exploited me, been dishonest in other areas of my life. It’s really shocking and hard to realize that there are people like this everywhere, and to know that manipulative people prey on vulnerable people. And so when you’re in this vulnerable state, which is natural for you to be in, learning some safety strategies to navigate that time is important. HOW TO MAKE STRATEGIC DECISIONS Aliya: That makes total sense. And most of the women that come to that network are just coming out of abusive relationships. So they’re vulnerable. Anne: Yeah, the Living Free Workshop, that I wrote, has that built into it. How to determine who’s safe and who isn’t safe. When is affordable relationship counseling near me safe? How to make decisions, so that the decisions you’re making, as you recognize this is abuse, can be strategic as you move forward. So if you’re listening and you’re like, “oh man, I’m worried about that,” then check out the Living Free Workshop. Aliya, thank you so much for sharing your story today. Aliya: Thank you.
• How to Prepare for Divorce: 4 Critical Things 23.06.2026 36Min.

  Many women quietly search how to prepare for divorce long before they say anything out loud. Preparing for divorce isn’t just paperwork. It’s emotional, strategic, and deeply personal. How To Prepare for Divorce: A Practical Guide for Women Below are four essential steps to help you prepare for divorce with clarity. 1. Get Educated About Divorce When women start researching how to prepare for divorce, they often focus only on legal logistics. But emotional and communication strategies matter just as much. It’s important to understand… How to set boundaries during separation How some spouses escalate when control shifts What communication patterns protect you What NOT to disclose too early 2. Profile Your Husband One of the most overlooked parts of learning how to prepare for divorce is predicting how your husband will react. Why this matters: Divorce often changes dynamics. A man who seemed calm in marriage may become reactive when he realizes he is losing control. Knowing likely behaviors ahead of time allows you to: Plan communication carefully Avoid unnecessary confrontations Protect documentation Prepare emotionally Strategic preparation reduces chaos. The Living Free Workshop walks women through identifying patterns so they can anticipate reactions before filing papers. 3. Find the Right Emotional Support Preparing for divorce can feel isolating. Even strong, capable women feel shaken. You may need: A space to process fear Validation when others minimize Guidance on specific issues that aren’t covered on divorce “checklists” Community with women who understand A support group like Betrayal Trauma Recovery provides emotional support tailored specifically for women navigating betrayal and separation. The team at Betrayal Trauma Recovery are not just certified divorce coaches, they’re trauma-informed coaches who understand the emotional toll of deception, gaslighting, and chronic instability. Divorce may be a legal process, but it’s also an emotional journey. Having the right support can make the difference. 4. Have Hope That You Can Thrive After Divorce When researching how to prepare for divorce, many women feel fear about the unknown: What will life look like? Will I regret this? Will my kids be okay? Can I really rebuild? Worry is normal. But listening to stories from other women who have walked this road can provide strength. The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast shares real experiences from women who navigated divorce and found clarity, safety, and stability on the other side. Hearing those stories can help you see that divorce isn’t the end of your story. Transcript: How To Prepare For Divorce Anne: I have asked my friend Debra Doak author of High Conflict Divorce for Women, Your Guide to Coping Skills and Learning Strategies for All Stages of Divorce. So for women wondering how to prepare for divorce, this interview is for you. Welcome Debra. Debra: Thank you. I’m thrilled to be here. How Common Is Divorce Regret? Anne: So many women who have been through a divorce are like, ah, things would have gone so much better if I would have known this. Or if I would have known that. Debra: We don’t know what we don’t know. And as traumatized women, we often either underreact or overreact. Both of those things can put us in a poor position when it comes to divorce. We’re also often the lower earners, or stay at home parents, and can get hurt quickly in this process if not prepared, get caught off guard. We’re also more likely to make emotional decisions, instead of strategic decisions looking out for long-term well-being. And as we know, we are also likely to trust when trust isn’t really deserved. When you trust an untrustworthy person in divorce, sometimes that can come back to bite you. Anne: A lot of women aren’t interested in doing the Living Free Workshop, even though it’s for married, separated and divorced women. It’s just about strategy, but they don’t want to do it because they think. I only need to think about strategy in the worst case scenario. They want to focus on their marriage working out. Debra: When women are trying to make that stay, wait, or go decision. Having been through betrayal trauma myself, we take baby steps. Let’s get copies of financial documents, get a little more in the loop on finances. Let’s start setting a little money aside. So we kind of just put the tip our toe in the water of getting ready. Observing from a Safe Distance Debra: While we’re going to give 150%, 100% to the marriage, and maybe 50 or 40 percent to setting yourself up just in case. Anne: Yeah, that’s exactly what the Living Free Workshop is about, how to observe from a safe distance. While determining his true character, what reality anticipates is what’s going to happen next. Also focusing on your own goals. So there is a section of Living Free that educates women about divorce. If they’re not interested, they can skip that part. But it’s just basic divorce education, which is important for every woman to have no matter what her situation is. Debra: Yeah, definitely is. I mean, preparation makes any divorce go more smoothly. Because when we act out of fear, we don’t make good decisions. And so even if you don’t have a high conflict person, divorce can still be very conflicted. In the case where you’ve been with an emotional abuser, you need to be prepared for what could happen. There’s a great test to see if he’s emotionally abusive, click here for that. The sense of entitlement that’s allowed them to behave in the ways they’ve behaved during the marriage. It is also a sense of entitlement that can cause a switch to flip when the woman decides to divorce them. Anne: Yeah, it’s hard to even wrap your head around the fact that they might flip that switch. And that happened in my case, it happens in almost every case I see. Where a woman was manipulated to think he would always pay child support or alimony. How To Secretly Prepare For Divorce Anne: And to be in the position where he’s not even remotely, the person you thought he was, is so alarming. And because we’ve all been through that stage where we think, he’s not going to do that to me. That’s not going to happen to me. I think all women, I mean, in high school or college, or somewhere, we all need education about divorce. Debra: For the women who don’t believe it’s going to happen to them. A common, what I call, dirty divorce trick is spousal starvation, and suddenly he reroutes that paycheck. Now you don’t have gas and groceries. What are you going to do? I hope your husband is a nice guy and negotiates fairly throughout, but what harm would it do if we had a little emergency savings account? What would it hurt if you took a few steps to protect you just in case? Anne: Yeah, because as you start getting healthier and setting boundaries. They will either improve, and they’re going to get it, or they’re going to get worse. But it’s not going to stay the same. Debra: It’ll change one way or the other. Either they will have a sense of guilt, remorse and empathy. Or, like I said, that sense of entitlement will come bubbling to the surface, and suddenly it becomes their money. And how dare you? So we just ask the what if questions. You’ve had a friend that went through a bad divorce. What if your husband did that? Maybe take a few baby steps to protect yourself. How To Financially Prepare For Divorce Debra: In this day and age, it seems like betrayal is rampant. Sometimes it’s financial betrayal. And sometimes they actually don’t know for sure. They don’t have any proof, but a wife knows the truth. She may not know the facts, but she knows the truth. When you’re with an emotional abuser, there’s often financial abuse involved. So women may not have access to information about their marital finances. That makes it hard to get started if you don’t even know what’s on the table to be divided. If you don’t have access to your own money. So that makes things really hard. Often the abuse will still keep her in a one-down position. And she still feels like she doesn’t have the power and voice to stand up for what she deserves. Anne: To all my listeners, this is important. They’re going to get mad no matter what. So please don’t make decisions thinking, okay, he’s going to get mad if I do this. So I’m not going to do it to avoid making him mad. He’s going to be mad, no matter what. So just do whatever you want. That’s very, very important. Because so many women are trying to stop the abuse by doing what he wants. And that is not going to happen. Debra: Not at all. Not at all. Women in abusive situations need to start creating this exit strategy in stealth mode. So that when he gets crazy, she’s at least got a few things in place. So she has copies of financial documents in a safe space, because they disappear. She’s got some money set aside because money disappears. Those kinds of things. How To ThrivE After Divorce Debra: There are no winners in divorce. So everyone walks away feeling like they didn’t get what they wanted. One thing I see often with betrayed women is expecting the court system to mete out emotional justice. He cheated on me, so why do I have to do with less? Why do I have to live in a small apartment? Why do I have to drive a used car? Whatever the what if is or why. And unless it’s something really egregious that’s going to shock the court, there’s no emotional justice. What we want to come away from a divorce with is a settlement where we made intentional decisions. And that we can feel good about. So we had all the information we needed, and every choice was intentional. Sometimes you will give up something that you were entitled to in order to get something else. And that’s okay, as long as it was an intentional decision as you prepare for divorce. So we just don’t want to come away feeling like we were missing information or a victim. Because what that does, and you’ll get this, it impacts their ability to recover from it afterwards. Divorce can be a bump in the road. It doesn’t have to be your destination. And so the more empowered you feel during the process, even though crappy things are happening, and he’s mean and unfair. And you may not get everything you want. If you can feel like you were informed you’re going to recover and move through that healing phase so much faster. Anne: Yeah. that’s the point of the Living Free Workshop. How To Prepare For Divorce Emotionally Anne: On our BTR Team, our coaches are betrayal trauma coaches. They’re also certified divorce coaches, so they can walk you through this and help you implement the Living Free strategies. They can help you prepare and stealth mode. Like she was talking about. The other thing our coaches do is help you work through those emotions. Debra: Yeah, when we talk about preparing for divorce, I talk about two people you need on your team. And that’s, I call a BFF backup. This is the person you can call at three in the morning, who can pick your kids up from school. Who knows what you’re thinking before you do. When they say, how are you? And you say, I’m okay. They go, no, you’re not. So you need a BFF backup and a taskmaster. Your taskmaster friend is someone who might not sit with their arm around you, but there’s someone who will research attorneys for you. We’ll do all the real estate legwork. We’ll go to the grocery for you. Someone who will do the things that you’re too emotionally crippled to even deal with. And then you need a safe place to share and be real. Because emotional regulation is key during this process, and by regulating or managing your emotions, I don’t mean stuffing them. What I mean is having some place safe with a coach, a super healthy friend or family member to get that stuff out. So that you can be strategic in your planning, and you want to have a safe place to get those emotions out. And then you also want to get the affirmation that what you’re feeling is normal as you prepare for divorce. Preparation For Divorce​ makes A Huge Difference Debra: Women say, I can’t remember where my keys are. I’m crying all the time. Of course you are. Of course, you feel that way. Look at what you’re going through. In divorce care, they tell you that sometimes, I think 80 percent of your brain can be occupied with thoughts about divorce. If you think about a computer, 80 percent of your computer’s RAM is busy processing thoughts about the divorce. And only 20 percent is available for your daily living. Of course, you’re going to forget your keys. Anne: Here are two concrete examples. I wasn’t able to read written instructions well. And so I asked a friend whose daughter was in my son’s preschool at the time. My son and her daughter were going to the same preschool, and we would get these emails or texts about what was happening. I couldn’t process them. I would try. I’d look at them and I’d be like, Oh, something about a hat. You know, I couldn’t figure it out. And so I asked her, I said, I can’t process written information in these emails and texts. So keep this in mind when your preparing for divorce. If something is important, will you please call me or send a text and say, send him in a hat like the simplest text possible? Just one thing, so I didn’t have to read the explanation or whatever, and she was happy to do that for me. And so she would call or send me a very simple text. Now, a lot of people don’t have a friend like that, but I think they can develop a friend like that. Help With Divorce Paperwork Anne: There might be someone who goes to church with you, someone in your neighborhood, another woman maybe who has been through it, who you didn’t realize who could help you out. It’s scary to ask, but I have found that a lot of people say yes. I think the scariest part is actually asking. Debra: It is. People will tell you, if you need anything, let me know. But they don’t know what you need. But they really do want to help. If you have a leaking faucet, someone wants to fix it for you. Someone wants to help you go over your documents. Someone wants to help you do those things. They don’t say that out of routine or ritual. They want to help. Because they just don’t know what you need. Anne: I think another traumatic situation here is the person who used to fix your faucet. And the person who helped you with your legal documents is your husband. There’s this other element of I need help, and the person who is helping me isn’t here, and what do I do? I’m alone! Like, he used to fix the faucet. That is also really traumatic through this time. Debra: It is because for your support, you need a coach, an attorney, a financial person. But you need to think ahead, so that you can keep yourself more centered and stable. Anne: This is why you need all these people in your corner. Because you’re rightfully and normally reacting to a really, really hard situation when you’re preparing for divorce. Debra: Exactly, it’s normal. Of course you are. Let’s get you set up for success. Make Self-care a Priority When Filing For Divorce​ Anne: Because if you say you should be able to handle this, why can’t you read? Why can’t you blah, blah, blah. You’re just going to get more and more depressed and overwhelmed. Debra: Right, yeah. Just to know that it’s normal. There are things you’re going to have trouble with. So how can we put measures in place to fill those gaps until you’re ready? And it might be a month, and it might be six months, but let’s think through who can help you. And that’s one of the things your taskmaster can do. Your taskmaster can find other people. Well, who can fix my faucet? Who can cut my grass? Who can do these things? Your taskmaster friend can do that. Anne: What do you believe are the most important things for listeners facing a high conflict divorce to know ahead of time? Debra: First of all, self care. When we’re going through a stressful time, one of our first tendencies is to cut back on self care. Because we have our normal life. Plus, now I have to fit in attorney appointments and financial appointments. And like I’ve added to my daily stress. And so we tend to cut back on self care, but what you need to do is double it. Because especially if you were in an abusive marriage, you developed coping mechanisms to get through the day with that partner. Those aren’t going to work anymore during divorce, so you have to make sure your tank is full. So increasing self care is important. We talked about safe people and a support team. You cannot do divorce alone. It’s too hard. You’re too traumatized. So get the right people around you as you prepare for divorce. Using Social Media During A Divorce Debra: Work on regulating your emotions so that you can make strategic decisions. Get the right help to process them. Vent to safe people. Because you want to make decisions you feel good about. Again, you may not get everything you want, but you at least want to feel empowered and informed. Shut down your social media. Block everyone he’s friends with. If his family supports him, block them, unfriend them. Don’t post anything. Live like a nun, especially if you’re going to be in a custody battle. Anne: I could not agree more. I deleted all my social media accounts, and I would highly recommend that for people. Debra: Don’t be out at a concert with a cocktail in your hand. Just don’t do it. Even though it’s fun and you want to show your friends that you went to the Jimmy Buffett concert, don’t do it. And then be careful of Switzerland friends. Those are people, they love both of you. He’s a great guy. We just want to be friends with both of you. No, absolutely not. And you don’t have to be cold or cruel about it, but take a step back. If you run in the same circles and you’re around them, just be very cautious what you say. Don’t discuss your divorce. Don’t discuss your partner. We talked about Switzerland friends, shutting down your social media, those kind of things. If you don’t keep control of yourself and what you say and do, it could be used against you. So it can hurt your case. If you’re preparing for divorce you need to keep this in mine, if you act out or send that email or send that text. Those things could be used against you. So it’s not in your best interest. How To Mentally Prepare For A Divorce Debra: Other people can get hurt when you’re not managing your emotions, and specifically your children. It’s the hardest thing to model healthy behavior to your children while you’re under this stress. It’s the hardest thing you’ll ever do in your life. Yet it’s the most important thing. And then finally, and you talked about this, we can’t make good decisions when we’re crying, and we can’t think about it. And our brain isn’t working right. So being able to maintain that sense of calm and clarity and focus on our purpose. Focus on the end game instead of living in the moment. Is critical to making good decisions as you prepare for divorce. Anne: Did you watch Marriage Story? Debra: I did. The emotion of it didn’t surprise me, the hurt, you know, the pain, the anger. What surprised me was how realistic their portrayal was of how our legal system creates litigious situations. When they don’t have to be. Anne: It was interesting that he had an affair, so there’s a betrayal. I listened to Pop Culture Happy Hour. They reviewed it, and they were like, this is a situation where you’ve got a nice man and a nice woman, and this is how divorce goes. They didn’t weigh the betrayal at all. It carried no weight in terms of fault. Instead, they focused on the idea that the couple had grown apart or weren’t really compatible. And I thought this is why so many women feel so betrayed in general. Because society in general doesn’t understand this. Although it showed the legal system well, I don’t think it got to the heart of the cause. Preparing For Divorce: Common Themes Debra: I agree. They glossed over the betrayal, and I think that’s just so indicative of culture. Culture says, eh, no big deal. Or culture says, well, you know, she wasn’t sleeping with him, so what’s a guy supposed to do? That patriarchal attitude is still so prevalent in society that nobody blinked at that. Anne: I know, I thought the part where her attorney, Nora, said you have to be perfect, and he doesn’t have to be perfect. It was so spot on. Debra: Spot on, the judges need to hear what they want to hear, and see. This is important as you prepare for the divorce, the judges and magistrates are looking for something from you, and you better present it. Anne: Well, yeah, I mean, it’s so traumatic. There are so many reasons why divorce is so traumatic that it just overwhelms your brain, you know? Debra: There are so many reasons, and they’re always individual. But there are three common themes: money, kids, and conflict. So often, women have been kept out of the loop in terms of finances, or stay at home moms or lower earners. And they’re worried, can they support themselves? They’re often worried about the impact this will have on their children. And they’re worried about the conflict, because we know that when we’re married to abusers, they don’t like to be told no. Sometimes you have to pick your hard when we’re on the fence, and work through that decision. Because it’s also hard to stay married to an abuser. The Right Support When Preparing For Divorce Anne: The thing that so many women appreciate about Betrayal Trauma Recovery Services is that our goal is to give women information. And then to validate and support them. So there’s never going to be a time when someone comes to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, where we say you have to get divorced. We give women the education they need, give them their options, and then help them assess what’s right for them. Can you talk about how Betrayal Trauma Recovery coaches support women through making their own decisions? Debra: The first thing a Betrayal Trauma Recovery coach will do is help a woman seek peace and safety. So helping them observe their partner’s patterns of behavior, helping them set the boundaries they need. And determining if they need to set the next boundary, the next boundary, and the next boundary. So when the boundaries aren’t working and they have to set tighter or stronger boundaries, that’s when we start to see separation or financial separation or start to take those bigger steps. And so when they get to that point, that’s when the word divorce starts coming up in their mind and they start thinking, Hmm, I wonder if this will have to be the next step I take. So you can pray your husband recovers. And simultaneously, get yourself knowledgeable about what it would look like if I took this other path toward divorce. And for many women, we go back and forth for a long time. When I prepare divorce, how will I know when it’s time to go? How To Prepare For Divorce As A Woman Debra: You will have a crystalline moment of clarity. There comes for most women, a time when the heavens open up, a spotlight shines down, and you know, today’s the day. When that happens for you, when you have that moment of clarity, I want you to be ready and not afraid. So if we have all this information, you will be prepared for what divorce will look like, and you know what you’re stepping into. When the heavens open and the spotlight shines on you, and you know today’s the day, you’ll simply nod your head and say, okay. I’m not scared. Anne: And that day might never come. Debra: It might never. It might be next week, a year from now or it might never come. But if it does, you’ll be ready. Anne: There are so many things that those who have gone through divorce wish we had known long before we even started considering it. Because it would have helped prepare us. So at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, like I said before, our coaches are certified divorce coaches. They can help women anticipate things, and women can get assistance through group sessions or individual sessions. Can you talk about the difference between group and individual sessions here at BTR? The BTR Team Can Help You Prepare For Divorce Debra: Sure, Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group is where you can get help tackling a particular high level issue. For instance, can you give me a few tips on how to talk to a six year old about this? And so, in three or four minutes, a BTR coach might give a couple of high level tips about age appropriate conversation, great. In an individual session, they can look at your finances. Look at your budget. Talk through a strategy to get back to work. They can help you make negotiation decisions, get into the meat of it. Talk about how to pick the right attorney for your case, who else you might need on your team. Like, they can dive into the details of your particular situation that probably aren’t appropriate for group. And so you can get really individual stuff there in order to prepare for divorce. It makes a big difference to actually look at your spreadsheets and numbers, especially if you haven’t been involved in your finances. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions can educate you about some of that. Anne: Exactly, and some of that’s kind of DIY in the Living Free Workshop, or if you need help implementing those strategies, you can do Group or Individual Sessions. So, if a woman is listening and she thinks divorce might be in her future, what are some of the first steps that she should take? Debra: The first thing I want to say is what you shouldn’t do. Please do not tell your spouse. I don’t want you to put that out there until you can get educated about it in the workshop. Just make sure you aren’t deciding not to divorce, because a fear that’s not rooted in truth is standing in your way. Here’s How To Financially Prepare For Divorce​ Debra: A woman who lived in the San Francisco Bay area where it’s expensive. She thought I can never ever afford to leave. There’s no way. I’m miserable, I want to leave, but I can’t afford to. And when she looked at the numbers, her budget was only short a thousand dollars a month. Then she thought, I can find a way to earn two hundred and fifty dollars a week. So is that fear holding you back? Make sure it’s not a false fear that’s holding you back. I’m not trying to get you to decide, I just want you to have truth. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, it’s all about truth. All truth all the time. Anne: Yeah, and it’s painful, especially when so many of us come from a religious background. So it feels like maybe “betraying” our husband. I’m going to say that in quotes, because obviously we’re not, because he betrayed us. Also in so many ways it feels like we’re betraying God. Debra: So that’s another one of those fears. Decide to face our fears. See if they’re real. Because regardless of the conflict and regardless of the parenting. For the most part, divorce is breaking a legal contract about money. That’s what many decisions will be about. That’s what the law is written about. So, understand the money involved as your preparing for divorce. Do you have access to your tax returns, your husband’s pay stub, or W 2? Do you know how much is in your retirement account? How much your house is worth? What’s the balance on your mortgage? Do you know what your monthly expenses are? It’s good to have the financial information before you consult with an attorney, so that an attorney can estimate of spousal support and child support. How To Tell Your Husband You Want A Divorce Debra: That’s what we need to help fill in our budget. If one of your fears is, well, I’ve been a stay at home mom, I don’t think I can support myself. Well, then the income line in your budget will be mostly child support and spousal support. So that’s important information to know. So gather some of the financials before you consult with an attorney. That way, that meeting will be much more productive for you. Anne: If a woman decides she wants to divorce, she’s prepared. She’s worked with a Betrayal Trauma Recovery coach. She’s done everything she needs to do, and she’s ready to do it. When is the right time to tell her husband that she wants a divorce? Debra: You are an expert on your husband. One of the preparation steps, and you’ll go through this in the workshop, is setting up a bank account. And making sure you have emergency funds, because a dirty divorce trick abusers like to play is move their paycheck and not give you access to any money. So if you think that’s the case, you tell him the same day you file the paperwork. Anne: So many women in our community, me included, did not think our husband was like that. And then we found out that he is like this. It was shocking to us during the divorce process. Like in my case, he shut down our bank account. And really, the abuse starts to be very overt. Where perhaps, before it was covert. For me, it was shocking and upsetting, but it was also like, I guess, I made the right decision. When Can You File For Divorce? Debra: It’s confirmation, yeah. Anne: Yeah, because it was like, whoa, when divorcing an abusive husband, he’s getting more and more deliberate and harmful through this, not less. And it will hurt you, but you can also think, Oh, okay, this is another sign that I’m making the right decision. Debra: We, as women, have such a tendency to wait until the bullets start flying before we put on our armor. And I want women in abusive relationships to know, if he says, don’t worry, I’m going to be fair. Don’t worry, I’ll always take care of you and the kids. If this is a person who’s been deceiving you for a decade, I’m not sure we should take that statement at face value. Let’s prepare for divorce and assume it’s not true. And if it turns out that he negotiates in good faith and takes care of you, that’ll be a bonus. Anne: Because this is someone who looked you straight in the eye and said, of course, I’m faithful to my marriage vows and had an affair. Debra: Let’s just make sure we have on our Kevlar vest just in case. So the best time to tell him is when it’s done. This is another thing a Betrayal Trauma Recovery coach can help with is preparing you for that conversation. One alternative is not to have the conversation. If you are already separated, you can simply file and have him served. If you want to have the conversation, the conversation is very simple. It’s, this is a decision I’ve made, it’s what I need to do for me. What Happens When You File For Divorce​ Debra: When he rails against it, you can say, I hear you’re mad, I hear you’re upset, I hear this isn’t the way you wanted it to go. This is the decision I’ve made for me. He’s gonna throw accusations at you, and you don’t need to defend yourself. You don’t need to explain why you chose to do it. Or you don’t have to tell him all the ways he hurt you. You simply repeat, this is a decision I felt like I needed to make. Anne: Yeah, because as I explained in the Living Free Workshop, if you try to explain it, or you’re hoping somehow, you can get some resolution with an emotional abuser like this. It’s not going to go that way. He’s going to use it to abuse you more. Debra: Correct, we don’t mention divorce when we prepare until we are doing it. It is never a threat. It’s never an incentive. It’s never a punishment. So, this conversation is only a notification conversation. Then he may throw declarations, you’ll never get a penny, you’ll never see the children, I’m getting full custody, you’ll be homeless. Whatever these declarations are, my best response is to say, we’ll see, that’s it. This is not a time where you’re going to negotiate, don’t fight back, don’t explain, you simply say, this is a decision that I feel like I need to make. If he throws those accusations or declarations out, you simply say, we’ll see, and that’s it. that’s the end of the conversation. Anne: Yep, I learned the hard way, which was why I was so passionate about writing the Living Free Workshop. Because I didn’t want any other woman to learn the hard way. The Best Preparation For Divorce: The Living Free Workshop Anne: But I totally get it. If you’re listening and you’re like. I don’t want to do the Living Free Workshop. I’m not interested in learning about this. I get it. Because I was there for a long time too. In my own experience, I just wish I had known what I know now. That’s all. And that’s why I want to share it with you. Especially because the strategies in the Living Free Workshop feel so counterintuitive. It’s not like anything a therapist will tell you or anybody else. It’s completely different. Debra: Yes. Anne: Can you go deeper about why it’s important to work with someone who understands this abuse dynamic when they’re getting a divorce. Instead of just getting support from like a regular therapist, or even trying to get emotional support from your attorney or sister? Debra: I just demonstrated one of them, helping you plan for that conversation so that it goes well and you can stay as safe as possible in that conversation. If you let your emotions, or your amygdala, your fight, flight, or freeze, reflex, drive what you’re doing in the divorce. You won’t fare as well. If a coach can keep you calm and emotionally regulated, so that you can make informed strategic decisions. You will do a lot better emotionally, financially and relationally. You’ll be a better mom through the process. You’ll help your kids navigate the process better. Your attorney is not an expert on the emotions in divorce. They’re an expert in the legal process. Anne: Many women want to talk to their attorney a lot, getting validation from their attorney. Or even want their attorney to be their therapist, which is an expensive way to go. How To Start Preparing for divorce Anne: The Living Free Workshop and Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group are much less expensive than an attorney’s hourly fee. Debra: And they’re better at it. Anne: Yeah. Debra: Just to say that. They’re better at supporting women in trauma when they prepare for divorce. An attorney is not skilled at it, trained at it, and they haven’t been through it. Anne: Don’t look to your attorney for emotional support or validation or anything like that. It’s not what they’re trained to do, and it will be frustrating and extremely expensive. Debra: And they won’t help you be a better mom, stay grounded, and make the best decisions for you. They’ll tell you what the law says about how it works. Mediation can be a decent choice, but you have to be prepared for that. And you need someone strong in your corner helping you prepare for mediation. Anne: To get more information about the Living Free Workshop, click this link. It’s amazing. It’s helpful. You also need support. And that’s what Betrayal Trauma Recovery group sessions are all about. Group sessions you can get in every day. It’s an amazing resource. So thanks for your help today. Debra. Debra: I love it. I love it. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is an amazing organization. it’s what I wish I’d had. Anne: Yeah, me too.
• Common Signs of a Toxic Relationship That Might Surprise You 16.06.2026 39Min.

  Are you seeing things in your marriage or a relationship that feel a little intense or puzzling…and you’re not sure if they’re normal or actually signs of a toxic relationship? If so, it’s important to pause and look at the pieces of the puzzle together to see what they might be telling you. To discover if you’re in a toxic relationship take our free emotional abuse test. Here are five things that might seem “normal,” but aren’t: SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP THAT ARE EASY TO MISS 1. HE WANTS TO MOVE THE RELATIONSHIP FORWARD QUICKLY When you’re in a relationship with someone who seemingly shares and cares about your values and interests, it’s easy to be swept up by the intensity of it all. Especially if the relationship seems to happen at the “right” time, and things move forward quickly. But this level of intensity and pace doesn’t give you time to slow down and really think about why you seem so compatible. 2. HE WANTS CONSTANT ACCESS TO YOU, BUT HE’S CLOSED OFF It might seem caring for your partner or husband to want to know where you are all of the time. But is it reciprocal or does it feel one-sided, like he needs constant visibility into your life, while parts of his remain just out of reach? Many women in these situations describe a quiet, hard-to-explain feeling that something isn’t adding up. Like he’s keeping close tabs on them… while also keeping options, information, or even other relationships carefully hidden. 3. HIS MOODS SHIFT SUDDENLY AND YOU DON’T KNOW WHY Think about it…in healthy relationships, partners are usually aware of the reasons why one partner isn’t in a good mood. They typically communicate about bad days at work or when they’re not feeling well. But in toxic relationships, that level of trust and communication often isn’t there, because one partner doesn’t want it to be. Everything’s fine, until it’s not, and then, it suddenly is again…And you’re left trying to figure out what changed. 4. HE‘S UPSET OVER SMALL THINGS Things that don’t seem like a big deal, suddenly are signs of a toxic relationship. For example, you miss a turn on the way to his best friend’s birthday party… and suddenly it’s not about directions anymore. He’s accusing you of being disrespectful, or doing it on purpose because you don’t want to go. Or you might simply ask him to help with the groceries, and suddenly he’s angry because, “you don’t respect his time and all the things he has to do.” 5. HE’S A DIFFERENT PERSON WHEN OTHERS ARE WATCHING Things feel tense, confusing, or even cold behind closed doors…but in public, he seems calm, kind, hardworking, and completely put together. For example, during counseling or around friends, he might appear thoughtful, patient, and willing to work on the relationship. He says the right things. He looks sincere. Other people may even be impressed by how hard he’s trying. But when you’re alone again, it’s different. The warmth disappears. The tension returns. And you’re left trying to reconcile the version of him everyone else sees…with the version you live with every day. If you relate and you need support, we’re always online to help you. Go to btr.org/group/ to see my daily support group schedule. TRANSCRIPT: EARLY SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR HUSBAND Anne:  I did an interview with a member of our community. We’re going to call her Iris, She talked about how his toxic patterns showed up in her marriage and what happened when she started using the strategies she learned in my workshop. Here’s that interview. Welcome, Iris.  Iris: Thank you. Glad to be here. Anne: Let’s start at the beginning of your story. Can you talk about how you felt when you first met your husband? Iris: He was very charming, and he seemed extremely sincere. Now I understand that he was love bombing me and was trying to make things go fast. It was very intense. And he preyed upon me at a time when I was really ready to get married and have kids. Everybody was getting married and having kids. So he went right for what was the most vulnerable part of me. And we met through a young adult single thing in our group. He proceeded to be very attentive. Anne: When you say young adult, single thing, that sounds a little bit like my faith. What’s your faith background? Iris: it’s the Catholic church. It’s actually Theology on Tap, which is at a brew pub, and you can buy a drink and mingle. And then they have a speaker. Anne: Kind of Matt Fraddish. Iris: Yes. Anne: I actually know Matt Fradd in real life. Iris: And I don’t go to the Catholic church anymore. But that was a huge part of our marriage and, we were really in a circle of pretty devout people. Which also I think contributed to my willingness to submit to him. Anne: When you say submit, can you talk about that a little bit more? EARLY CONTROL DISGUISED AS CARE AND SHARED VALUES Iris: Hindsight, there were red flags before we married. There were early signs of coercive control. It dates me, but cell phones weren’t the norm yet. And he bought me a cell phone so he could reach me more easily. He was pretty volatile. He asked me to marry him within a month or two and I deferred and we dated longer, but he was just intense. Then he would be very sorry. He would cold shoulder me at points. He’d be angry for things that were weird, wasn’t very flexible. Now I know these were signs of a toxic relationship. We went through nine months of marriage prep. So many Christian circles focus on the idea that the man is the head. I saw that in my parents’ marriage too. My dad made all the decisions. My mom was independent in some ways, but she still did what he wanted. I think I expected marriage to look like that. The husband leads and the wife follows. Even though I was independent, had a master’s degree, was over 30, and had traveled, I still lived in a huge Christian community where that model of marriage was everywhere. NOT RECOGNIZING SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP Anne: And you just mentioned nobody actually says that, but they actually do say that, it might not be in so many words. It might not be so directly, but they like actually say it. And if you call ’em out and say, “Hey, you said this.” They usually deny it. “Of course, I didn’t say that.” And you’re like, “What? You did.” That’s the part that’s really confusing. The therapists come in or the clergy comes in, or the friends and family, and they gaslight you too. It’s like, “You’re putting words in my mouth. I didn’t say that.” Especially when they find out what he is really like, and you’re like, “What?” “You told me this.” “Well, I never did.” And they for sure did. It’s almost like no matter what you do, you can’t win. There are friends of mine and maybe friends of yours too, who are amazing and they’re like, “Oh my word, I said the wrong thing.” That is so validating. I feel like when I meet people like that, it’s easy to be like, “It’s okay did the ‘wrong thing’ too. I was doing the best I could and I didn’t know that he was abusive. And I didn’t know what was happening, and didn’t recognize signs of a toxic relationship. So I can’t blame you either.” But, for the other people who continue to not believe us and deny that they said or did certain things. ‘That’s harder. Cause it becomes this almost group of unhealthy people that you’re dealing with, rather than just the one unhealthy person. Iris: Right. Signs of a Toxic Relationship: The Sudden Switch After Marriage Anne: Did you end up going to couple therapy? Iris: In the Catholic Church you do Pre-Cana, which is pre-marriage counseling, and they saw some things that were concerning. He was very intent that he could change things. They would categorize it like how we were different. I think she said to me, “Life might always be kind of hard for him.” ‘Cause that’s what she was seeing.. He works very hard, so he seems very sincere. And he met with the man in the couple we met with. And read books and was very sincere. They said to us, “Oh, we’ve never seen somebody work so hard to try to improve themselves so that they’re ready for a marriage.” He impressed them, and I remember feeling exhausted by that point. And it was a mask. I now know that these were signs of a toxic relationship. Anne: Like you shouldn’t have to work that hard. to be normal. They are hard workers, because it would be very hard to pretend all the time. Iris: Right, and that’s how he lives. He has a mask all the time. We had this huge Catholic wedding, like an hour and 20 minute long mass. And it was that night the switch flipped. And he was angry. He cold shouldered me. We’d waited till our wedding night, and he said things that were incredibly humiliating. Seeing THE SAME SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP IN OTHER WOMEN’S STORIES Iris: Then the next morning he would hardly talk to me. And we left the beautiful hotel. We were to go to a morning brunch at my parents, with guests who were from outta town and our families. And he was furious because people had decorated our car. And he had to stop at a car wash to rinse everything off before we even got to the wedding brunch. Anne: I used this story in my book. Iris: You did? Anne: Yes, this story. Someone else had the same story. Iris: Isn’t that amazing? Like how these Chucks do the same thing to us and have all the same signs of a toxic relationship. Anne: ‘ Like Twilight Zone. Cause you never gave me that story. Iris: isn’t that amazing? I feel like that in group a lot. I’m like, “Oh, that happened to me.” Anne: BTR has been like me trying to fit all the pieces together. And as I’ve tried to fit all the pieces together, things became very clear. And I’ve become very good at seeing in the dark. So this piece of the puzzle I was trying to get it to fit. Like why did he do that? I’ve never met you before, but I spent a lot of time piecing just this piece. With the other pieces that I had of other people’s stories to say, what was this about? I’ve spent so much time with this story in my brain and what it meant. I’m like, holy cow. Iris: Thank you. Thank you for somewhere to tell it, because it was something that felt so shameful for such a long time, rejected, and humiliated. RECOGNIZING THE PATTERNS OF EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE PARTNERS Iris: So we went to that wedding brunch, and I knew he was on edge the whole time. Other people didn’t necessarily see that. We got back to the house we were making our home together, which was his house. And he was angry, he didn’t want to go on our honeymoon, but I was like, I’ve been planning a wedding. All I have been thinking of is being able to go rest on a beach. So he agreed to go, and it was a really a horrible week. He was just fighting. His anger and unreasonableness, were more signs of a toxic relationship. It’s so hard, because he can make it feel like I’m also participating. We finally came home after the week, and at several points I thought maybe I should just fly home,’because it was awful. How would I even ask somebody to come and pick me up? What would I say? What would I do? Feeling so humiliated, like we had this big wedding, we’d done all this preparation, so we finally came home and I remember the first morning after we’d gotten home. He got up, he didn’t even talk to me. He grabbed his mountain bike, and he went mountain biking all day. That was a pattern that repeats throughout our marriage, where he just does his own, yeah. Anne: I had a mountain biking all day incident as well that I wrote about in my book. All of a sudden I’m like, what is happening? This is Twilight Zone, yes. Iris: No way. The Chucks, it’s the Chuck thing, which has been the most powerful thing to learn. WOMEN HAVE DIFFERENT RESPONSES Anne: Surreal that they’re all the same. I think that’s one of the powerful things about our group sessions is that the women are so different. We all react differently and we’re all doing the right thing. Because all of our personalities are different. So some of us want to protect ourselves by being quiet and sitting back and that’s the right thing for us. Some of us want to fight the guy, because that’s how our personality is. But they do all the same things. It doesn’t seem the same, because we haven’t acted the same. And I think the thing that like really helps it all come together is when you realize they’re so transactional. That they’re going to manipulate you in whatever way works for you, all signs of a toxic relationship. So if you’ve been trying to protect yourself in a certain way, they’ve been countering your protection methods in a certain way. And then when you change up the way you’re trying to protect yourself, they almost become like a different person. But they’ve been that same exact person the whole time. It’s just that they’re so transactional that they’re like, oh, that’s not working anymore. I have to do this other thing. And this whole new set of problems comes out so they can be super, super nice or super aggressive. But the whole time, it’s manipulation and lies. Did he ever go through a time where he seemed like he was really great? WHEN PREGNANCY AND BAD ADVICE KEEP YOU STUCK WITH SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP Iris: I got pregnant right away, so I probably would’ve left, but then I was pregnant and trying to navigate that. When I found out I was pregnant with my first baby, I went to therapy right away, and that therapist just didn’t have the skills to recognize an emotional cycle of abuse and really gaslit me. Then got pregnant again when my daughter was nine months old. So I had two babies, under 18 months old. That was another thing. In my faith, that I grew up with, you’re supposed to accept all babies. That was something that really kept me trapped. I knew once I was pregnant that I would always have to be linked to him. And that was incredibly devastating and terrifying. I think the Christian, and I’m going to say trope, I don’t want to make fun of anybody, but the trope of marriage that you just have to work hard enough and it will all be fine. That really was so damaging when signs of a toxic relationship are present. He did tell me early in our marriage that he had struggled with porn. He did the Every Man’s Battle stuff and everything like that. Also he confided in me that he’d used some at work. He has a security clearance and was about to be interviewed with a, polygraph. He was afraid they would ask him something like that. At the time, he was abusive our whole marriage, but it was the most intense. I didn’t even have the wherewithal to understand that. It was disturbing, it made me feel awful. But I didn’t have any brain space to process what to do with that. He downloaded it on me to get it off his chest. HE WAS Emotionally ABUSIVE ALL OF THE TIME Iris: After my second baby was born, he was probably seven months old, I tried to leave to go to a mom’s group. My ex-husband was angry with me because of my daughter, who’s my older one. I was working on potty training her. And I let her wear pants without underwear. She pooped and he was furious. He came up behind me in the bathroom and pushed me against the counter and said, “Next time, make sure she wears underwear.” So he was abusive all of the time, disrupted my sleep, and would wake me up in the night angry if I coughed. I had to sleep on 18 inches of the bed or less, without moving to not anger him. The reaction I had was to kick him to get him to back up. That’s when he grabbed me by the throat and started to strangle me. And I know now, but I felt terrible later. All I wanted to do was leave. I got my coat and I got in the car and I left. My children were still in the house with him. I just wanted to get away. I went to the mom’s group like everything was fine. But I was dissociated and in trauma. I had gone to my therapist then within a day or two and just poured everything out. And her response was, other women have it worse. And I was so humiliated, like feeling somehow I had caused this. Even though like I knew, I have education. I was in my thirties, I knew that wasn’t right. But the abuse had taken so much of my strength. That kept me so trapped for so long. It made it harder to open up. Therapists aren’t equipped to see signs of a toxic relationship Iris: And we went to so many marriage therapists, who just aren’t equipped. Because Chuck is charming, and they just don’t understand the dynamic except for one therapist who we did not go back to. They didn’t see the signs of a toxiC relationship. But she was crazy. So we went in, it was this dilapidated house. She was far back in the house. The door was open. We went in and sat down. Literally a dog with sores and the cone of shame came out, and she was like, I’ll be right there. Chuck was like, so wigged out. She came out and talked to us for a little while. She also had paranoid notes tacked up on her wall. Anyway, she talks to us for a little while, and Chuck is so wigged out, so Chuck is walking out. And before we leave she says, I want to give you something. And she hands me a page, and it has books on it. So I went home and ordered it, and then it came and I didn’t read it, like I couldn’t read it. I didn’t read it for the longest time, because it was just so painful. But that was the only therapist who saw the signs of a toxic relationship. And then I found out the next week she lost her license, in the newspaper. Anyway, she was the only one who saw the abuse and handed me a key. Anne: So she handed you a clue. When His “I Choose You” Doesn’t Add Up Iris: A clue, and she was right. I had gone to other therapists over the years. I looked just crazy, because I would just cry. One therapist had different offices and I would always go to the wrong one. because I had no short term working memory available. Chuck disrupted my sleep. I’d be in the shower, he’d bring the baby in screaming and put them on the bath mat and I’d have to get out and take care of the baby. He’d drive angry, the list goes on and on. I just didn’t have the words to explain. We went to a mom’s group event where dads were invited. And he was angry at me the whole time, but only I knew that. And then I had to get in the car and drive home with him. So it was really intense. And then at about the seven year mark, he decided that marriage worked for him. It was such a delight, such a relief to have him gone for two weeks. He came home from a business trip. And he said, “I realized it’s been you the whole time. You’re really the one that I want to be married to.” Anne: Oh Iris: Right. Anne: Wait, he was having an affair. Iris: I don’t know. Anne: That sounds like something someone would say if they just broke up with someone. Because they’re like trying to choose between the person they’re having an affair with. In my book, I put the pieces together. FROM THE DAY WE GOT MARRIED, THERE WERE SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP Anne: After interviewing over 200 women and hearing their stories. I’m pretty good at knowing what happened. I think in this situation, he’s having an affair and she breaks up with him. He’s feeling bummed about it. He might say out loud to you, I decided I want to be with you. Iris: Mm hmm Anne: You don’t have the context of the affair, of him breaking up with her. So this really weird out of the blue statement, “I’ve decided I want to be married to you.” When he’s been married to you for seven years is odd. It also feels like a relief, “Oh, maybe he just didn’t want to be married to me before, and now he’s choosing me.” But you don’t realize what a weird out of place thing that is, because he makes you feel better in that moment. I don’t know if that rings true to you, but it seems that would be the order of events that would precipitate out of the blue, telling you, “Oh, I’m choosing you now.” Iris: Yeah, it didn’t make me feel better, because from the day we got married, he was horrible. it was awful. Anne: So you’re like, great. Now this awful person really wants to be married to me. Iris: It felt like a lie. Now that I understand how Chuck works, like there was something he wanted, he didn’t really love me. Somebody who really loved me and realized they were wrong would’ve not said that. I think they would’ve said, ” I’ve been horrible. I can see why you wouldn’t even want to be married to me, but I realized I really want to be married to you. They would’ve said something to try to heal that. Anne: Some effort to repair. Seeing the Patterns and Signs of a Toxic Relationship Anne: Instead it was more signs of a toxic relationship. Iris: I think so. And I think that’s why it felt awful. Because he manipulated me. Which I don’t think I could verbalize at that time, but he manipulated again. Anne: Were you about to leave at that time? Was there anything about you that was different? Iris: He knew that I was unhappy, but he was abusive all of the time, yeah. Anne: Did you ever find out about explicit media use? Iris: He told me, in hindsight, he’d invited a single woman that he’d never met to our wedding. Which was weird. It was a last minute thing, and I feel like she was probably a backup. Anne: You’ve said three stories now that sound exactly like other stories. I have heard this before. Your story includes all the classic, down to the detail. Iris: Wow Anne: Of inviting someone else to the wedding. Iris: The Chuckness of it. Anne: You got a winner. Iris: He’s a doozy. He told me later that he didn’t actually want to get married. Then when I look at inviting this woman to the wedding, he didn’t admit that for many years. But when he did, I was like, oh, so she must have been the escape hatch. If he didn’t go through with marrying me, he would’ve had someone in the wings. FEELING HELPLESS Iris: I suspect he continues to use porn. He is in cybersecurity, and he always had three computers in his office. So I wonder if one of those he used. I don’t know. I’ve always been curious about what that was. I don’t think I was as tuned into that until I was leaving the marriage. And then there wasn’t much that I had access to. There wasn’t anybody that seemed to have that language who I could talk to. I just felt really helpless, and he was very manipulative and very controlling, the love bombing, he is very good at. The other part was that I was super reactive at that point. So I felt very guilty about my responses to his behavior. Even though it was less intense and further apart. But the reality is that those first seven years, in the bedroom, total coercion, marital rape, and everything now that I have words for, had happened. By that point, like there was very little he had to do to make me comply, to try to stay out of his way. I would try to have a separate life, while maintaining that Christian marriage appearance. It took me a long time to see these as signs of a toxic relationship. Anne: We would probably call it like survival mode. You are trying to survive and that’s why a lot of people use the word survivor when they talk about abuse victims, because every day you’re just trying to survive. Why Getting Help Feels So Scary at First Iris: Yeah, daily. Navigate all of the things that are happening that just don’t make any sense. And I don’t have the words for. I think during the pandemic, I started to see your Instagrams. And it was like, oh, that’s what’s happening, those are the words. That’s what this is. And beginning to be able to label things and feel like I’m not alone. Then, wanting to join group, but then being afraid. What if it doesn’t help, I don’t want Chuck to know I’m joining? Just feeling do I really want to do that? because I felt like if I go through that door, I can’t go back. Anne: Can we talk about that for a minute? because a lot of women have told me that. I followed you on Instagram, or I listened to the podcast, and I didn’t start attending group sessions because I knew it would change everything. What is it about BTR that is different in that way? It’s different than maybe therapy or something. Is it because you’re going to finally get help to look at it. Seeing the signs of a toxic relationship can be scary at first. Iris: This can make me cry. I think, because no one had helped. So I think there was an element of, I could try this and probably it’s still not going to help. By that point, looking for help for so long and thinking, I don’t know that anything will help. then being so vulnerable and beaten down. I think there’s a sense of like, does anybody really want to help me? Do I deserve help? because it certainly seems like it’s my fault. So being very afraid to join a group. Like it’s terrifying the first day. BTR FELT LIKE AN ANSWER TO PRAYER Anne: Once you did attend a group session? Were you surprised at what happened? Iris: Yeah, the first day I joined, you hear that zoom beep and you are in group and feeling so afraid. But I was so welcome. it was like I could take a breath, even though really I was crying so hard. Hearing everybody talk, hearing the coaches talk, feeling like the words made sense. I didn’t share that first time, but just crying afterwards. Like there’s somewhere that gets this. There’s somewhere where there are other women who understand this. I’ve never met anybody who knows what’s happening to me. In my story, something that’s amazing was that when my daughter was a baby, there was this show on daytime TV called Starting Over House. It was a reality show for women to go to this house and start over. They had two coaches, and I remember watching these women go, and they had all different kinds of problems that they were trying to grow from or whatever. All I wanted was to take my baby and join that house. It was a reality show. I’m sure it would not have been really super helpful. But I just wanted to have people love on me and help me figure out my marriage. That’s all I wanted. So when I came to Betrayal Trauma Recovery group, I’m not kidding you, two of the coaches looked like those two coaches on that show. It just felt like it was a prayer answer. HIS ANGER WAS THERE ALL THE TIME Iris: So Sharon and Renee, two coaches loved on me and made me feel like I wasn’t crazy. And helped me to slowly unravel what had been happening and what had happened to me, and find my voice. I joined in the spring, I was already starting to take steps in my marriage to not engage with Chuck. By July, he was angry with me all of the time. Which I’ll come back to in just a minute. But , before I had joined, he had done some really angry driving in the car. He’d been angry one day when I had locked the door to the master bedroom, because I like to pray and meditate. And then I had gotten in the shower without unlocking it. Because I just want privacy from two kids, a dog and a Chuck. He banged on the door for as long as I was in the shower, and I could hardly hear him, but it scared the pants off of my kids. I felt like I didn’t know what to do. When I joined group, I finally started to have some strategies and observe him. Sometimes I forget all the things that happened. Right before I joined in February, he bought a new car and asked for money from his father. Then he came to me and said, “I didn’t spend all the money on the car. I saved some, so either you can go to marriage therapy with me.”, which he’d been threatening, and I didn’t want to go to marriage therapy with him because we’d been many, many times. GROUP HELPED ME SEE THE SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP Iris: He said, “Either you go to marriage therapy with me, and I’ll buy a car for our daughter, or I’m going to divorce you. Not long after that, I ended up joining group. Then he said, “I used that money to file for divorce. I hired an attorney, and how do you want me to serve you your papers?” At that point, I had enough skill to say you can have me served, thank you. And it was super calm. And then I actually jumped in group and was able to just process. One of the things that was so amazing was that everything happening to me in real time, I could then go in a group, get support, be in my closet, my car, or at the library. The more I went towards health and boundaries, the angrier he got. So he actually continued to ask me for two months how I wanted my divorce papers. I can see how divorce and emotional abuse were intertwined, he was using the threat of divorce to try to control me. I would say, “You can have me served.” And he would say, I don’t want to pay $400. He did that until I got a paper in the mail and I thought that I was being served. I didn’t think I could be served in the mail, which you can’t in my state, but it was actually that they were going to kick it out of the system. I took that paper to an attorney, because I had been interviewing attorneys. That kicked off the divorce process. Because I was served. Anne: That whole time he is asking, “How do you want to be served? And you’re like, “Just serve me.” DEALING WITH CONTROL WHEN HE FILED FOR DIVORCE Anne: He’s trying to get you to do something to stop the divorce. He threatens you—if you don’t toe the line, I’ll divorce you. When you’re like, okay, go ahead and divorce me, then he’s escalating. Using all the tricks and signs of a toxic relationship that worked before. He reminds me of my ex, who said that. Then he didn’t file. Because he thought that would instigate me repairing. Or me doing the thing I was supposed to do. And when I didn’t do it, I don’t think he wanted to file for divorce. It’s just that he couldn’t figure out how to control me anymore. He was like, well, I guess I have to make these things happen. And it sounds the same in this scenario, where he’s trying to get you to do something. Because a normal person, if they’re like, how do you want me to serve you? And you say, oh, just serve me. They’d be like, okay. And they would serve you. Iris: Right, it was control. I was so thankful I could go back in group and have the framework, putting my lab coat on, doing one step at a time. Getting shored up so that I wouldn’t be bowled over by his behavior. I finally hired an attorney, and my attorney notified his attorney. Chuck came to me and said, “Well, that’s not fair. You didn’t tell me you had an attorney. And now we both have to decide to dismiss the divorce. I can’t just decide myself.” Anne: Like not to get divorced? After he’s filed, he’s like, wait. Now that you’ve responded to me serving you with divorce papers, we actually have to get divorced. Iris: Right. Anne: That sounds like my Chuck too. INDIVIDUAL SESSIONS HELPED ME GET READY FOR EACH BIG BATTLE Iris: Really, it’s like they’re all going by the same playbook. I think realizing that these are all the signs of a toxic relationship was huge. And it allowed me to understand that my job was to be strategic. Chuck does a lot of stupid as a strategy. That attorney he hired in July, by the time our status conference was in October, he’d used all of his retainer. Which was $5,000, and nothing had happened yet. Because he is a Chuck and likes to call his attorney to talk. So then right after the status conference, he fired the attorney and then went pro se for a while. I was so thankful that I had BTR, that I could do group. I could do the Betrayal Trauma Recovery individual sessions to get ready for each big barrier or battle with him, so that I went in calm and focused. It really allowed me, in my divorce process to understand that this was the best thing for me. Even though he was trying to control me. It was finally the door out. And he kept coming back to me and asking, “Do you really want a divorce?” And I would say, “You could move out.” But he never would. One of the other things was that understanding that there was going to be so much out of my control and really focusing on what was in my control. In my coaching sessions with Renee and with Sharon, being able to determine what my top priorities were. My priorities weren’t numbers. My priorities were big picture. And then I said, these are the things that are most important and this is what I want to work towards. And it helped me. I feel like things worked out well for me. WE SETTLED AN HOUR BEFORE COURT Iris: So having enough money to restart and go back to school. Having stability for my kids, not selling the house immediately so that my daughter could finish high school. Like those were the big picture things. And because Chuck just wants to fight, it was the 11th hour literally. He hired an attorney again, just weeks before our divorce was final. But we ended up settling like an hour before court. I was able just to hang on, to understand it was going to be like that no matter what I did. Like I didn’t have any control over him, and I really got up that morning not knowing what was going to happen. And being at peace in that, and that I was doing all the things that I needed to do, and to let go of that so that I wasn’t in a battle with him. That was incredibly powerful. Hard but powerful. So it’s been final for two years. And the post separation abuse continues, and BTR’s been incredibly helpful in that. I was able to stay in our marital home for a year till our daughter graduated, and then last year that sold. So I moved out and things just lined up. In part because he was so disorganized. I think that worked out in my favor. And I’m now in school finishing a post Master’s certificate in school counseling. And I got hired last fall as a school counselor. So I’m working full-time as a school counselor while finishing my certificate. Just having somewhere to work out the technical stuff and then the emotional stuff, to understand how to be strategic. RESTARTING MY LIFE Iris: Because I could stay in that place rather than be in his blender. Which is what it was for 18 years. I have been able to restart my life and feel so grateful and fortunate. That I’ve had the support, and he continues to be abusive. And my daughter now is 19 and my son is 17. And so being able to talk about that and how he behaves helped me. I know that at some point, I won’t have to interact with him as much. Or at all once my kids are bigger. But because of the type of abuser he is, because of the types of things he did to me, I know that I am at greater risk of him being dangerous to me physically. And so being able to unpack that, but also, understanding that I have a right to safety and that I can take steps to do that and not feel bad about it. He’s much sneakier now. He’s incredibly angry with me and feels like the divorce was unfair. Because his goal is control, he can’t control me anymore, I think is one reason why he’s angry. It is palpable when I’m around him. He seethes at me. Other people may not be able to see it because he’ll mask it until there’s nobody around. But I think it has been invaluable to me to have a community where I can process that and then take steps to be safe from all the signs of a toxic relationship. When I finally blocked him, which was scary to do, because we have two kids. And that was easier to be able to text and call. It was just another vector for him to get to me. BLOCKING HIM FELT SO EMPOWERING Iris: So blocking him and doing email only. It felt so empowering to make that decision and be able to unpack that in group and also get the support of “Yay, you finally blocked him.” Like I’d been talking about it for so long. And trying to figure out the signs of a toxic relationship, There are the big steps to leave abuse and there are smaller ones too. Sometimes it’s the little ones that felt really hard. Especially because then my kids would know that I blocked him. Moving away from abuse is hard. I left the house today because I have somebody cleaning my house, which I started hiring somebody. So that I can do all that I’m doing. because I’ve been in school and working full-time and parenting two teens, and it feels so empowering. When they walked in today, I was thinking, because I was coming to talk to you and I was like, they’re helping me leave abuse. And I can say that to you. I think you know that. But he was abusive with cleaning. He would wake me. He likes things clean. He’d wake the kids cleaning and it’s very controlling. But to have a clean house and not be abused, it’s hard to express. This is my safe space, and I get to decide how it gets clean. I get to decide how to spend my money. I get to make choices now that I couldn’t make before. I’m just so incredibly grateful that BTR, I can make choices and know that I can. Thank you. LEARNING THE STRATEGIES IS INVALUABLE Anne: You are so brave and so strong. Look at you. You’ve got a good job. You have enough money to be able to hire someone to help clean your house, and the lack of guilt. Because some people have the money, but they’re like, I still can’t. I should be able to, no, like look at all the amazing things that you’ve accomplished. When it comes to divorce, if people ask me my situation, I say I am proudly divorced. I am so happy divorced. And I also say things like abuse doesn’t work out for a lot of people, but it worked out so well for me. Because everything that I have gained from learning about the signs of a toxic relationship and the strategies of protecting myself, has been invaluable. Like our confidence just grows day by day. That little voice in our heads and that little like charge that feels like I’m doing something wrong or I can’t do this or I can’t do that just starts to fade away. And life feels so free and wonderful. I’m so happy for you. It’s wonderful. Good job. Iris: Thank you, thank you for starting BTR and your podcasts were such a beacon for me too. Before I started group of these voices saying, “You’re not alone, you’re not crazy.” Listening to your voice, I still probably need to hear that a lot, because he makes me feel crazy. So thank you. Anne: Well, thank you, without women like you who listen and come and use our services, we wouldn’t be here. So thank you. Our services are incredible. Our team is incredible. It’s such a safe place. THE DIFFERENCE WITH BTR SERVICES Anne: I’ve been thinking a lot about the difference between BTR and the difference in our services is that it’s so real. You really have women you can see who know your story. You can talk to them every single day in person . And they’re never going to blame you or judge you. It’s never going to be that you made some kind of soul contract, like the weird stuff that you might hear from people who somehow try to blame you. I’m like, there’s no reason to ever say any of it had anything to do with you. because you were surviving the best you could the whole time, and you were going for help, and no one gave you the right information. And none of that has anything to do with you. They are helping you deal with the signs of a toxic relationship. That’s the crazy thing about abuse. You’re doing every single thing right and you still can’t get the right information. Despite you trying to get it for years. Some people don’t believe it, because they can’t imagine that would happen. But it happens every day with so many women all over the world. Anyway, thank you for your support of BTR. Iris: It is really such a privilege to be in this community. I felt, loved on and prayed for fiercely. BTR GIVES US THE STRATEGIES THAT WE NEED Iris: I remember when I first started. I thought they’re giving us the weapons that we need to fight the battle. Almost under the cover of darkness. They sort of come into our homes, our cars, our closets, and give us the weapons we need to fight the evil that is happening to all of us. Like all of a sudden realizing the support, but also the education that BTR does, is invaluable, to help us recognize and deal with the signs of a toxic relationship. I could get out of my reactive brain and really start to think, “Oh, this is what’s happening. Okay, this is what I can do. Chuck is doing this. This is what I’ve always done, but I don’t have to do that. I can do this.” It changed everything. Anne: Well, I am so glad, thank you so much, Iris, for taking the time to share your story with me today. Iris: Thank you.
• Emotional Abuse Checklist: What You Need To Know for Sure 09.06.2026 42Min.

  If you’re searching for an emotional abuse checklist, you’re looking for clarity. I’m an emotional abuse expert. My team has helped over 8,000 clients identify emotional abuse and thrive. And I’ve noticed that most victims of emotional abuse in marriage have been told, “You’re too sensitive,” or “You expect too much.” You’ve probably wondered, Is it me? Emotional abuse is often subtle. It hides in half-truths and conversations that never quite resolve. This emotional abuse checklist will give you a clear picture of the patterns. Because emotional abuse isn’t just isolated incidents. To learn more, take my free emotional abuse test. What Is Emotional Abuse? Emotional abuse is a pattern of behavior used to control, confuse, belittle, intimidate, or dominate another person. But it likely won’t feel that way. It’s usually not obvious yelling or cruelty. Many emotionally abusive men seem like really nice guys. That’s why having an emotional abuse checklist matters. Emotional Abuse Checklist Use this checklist to look for patterns. One isolated moment does not mean someone is emotionally abusive. Repeated patterns do. 1. Chronic Lying Your husband lies about serious matters, such as: His whereabouts How he uses his time Money or financial decisions Porn use or masturbation Emotional or sexual affairs The real reasons for his actions When confronted, he minimizes, deflects, or becomes angry. 2. Withholding Information He: Rarely shares his thoughts or feelings Says, “You wouldn’t be interested” Gives vague or incomplete answers Plays dumb when asked direct questions Refuses to provide financial transparency Withholds access to accounts or income details Walks out when discussions get serious Withholding is a way of controlling your perceptions. 3. Discounting Your Thoughts and Feelings He says things like: “You’re too sensitive.” “You’re jumping to conclusions.” “You blow everything out of proportion.” “You always have something to complain about.” “Why do you always twist everything around.” “You’re looking for a fight.” He says your valid concerns are unreasonable. 4. Mood Control He: Makes the house tense with his moods Refuses to acknowledge obvious problems Pretends everything is fine when it clearly isn’t Everyone adjusts to him. 5. Disparages You, But Disguises It as A “Joke” He says: “You’re my ball and chain.” “You would get it if you were smarter.” “What else can you expect from a woman?” “Your blond is showing.” When you object, he responds: “You don’t have a sense of humor.” “You can’t take a joke.” Humiliation disguised as humor is still humiliation. 6. Blocking Conversation He: Pretends not to hear you Looks at his phone while you talk Storms out mid-conversation Says, “The discussion is ended.” Rolls his eyes while saying, “Quit yakking.” Says “Who asked for your opinion?” Stonewalling is a control tactic. 7. Financial Secrets When you ask about money, he says: “You have plenty.” “I’m not going through receipts.” “It’s too complicated for you.” “All you married me for is my money.” “Do I have to account for every penny?” He shifts accountability back onto you. 8. False Accusations When you raise concerns, he says: “You don’t respect me.” “You don’t love me.” “You’ve never supported me.” “If you won’t have sex with me, who are you having it with?” He accuses you of things that aren’t true. 9. Blame Shifting He says: “When you pester me, of course I get mad.” “I wouldn’t look at porn if you met my needs.” “I was going to do it, but not if you keep bugging me.” He blames his bad behavior on you. 10. Character Attacks Instead of addressing issues, he says: “The trouble with you is…” “You’re stupid.” “Really? It’s like you’re never satisfied.” “You’re a bad mom.” “You don’t care about anyone.” He attacks your identity. 11. Trivializing Accomplishments He minimizes your efforts: Makes sarcastic comments about your projects Dismisses your work as insignificant Claims shared ownership of what you built alone You feel small instead of supported. 12. Undermining the Family He: Prioritizes his wants over family needs Disappears for hours or days Leaves you to manage all responsibilities Makes decisions without considering impact The family orbits around his desires. 13. “Forgetting” or Denying Reality He says: “I never said that.” “You’re making that up.” “We never had that conversation.” “You’re upset about nothing.” This is gaslighting. Over time, you question your memory. 14. Ordering and Demanding He says: “Get rid of this.” “You’re not wearing that.” “Shut that off.” He commands rather than collaborates. 15. Subtle Threats He says: “If you act like that, I’m going to…” “When you do that, it makes me very angry.” “If you won’t meet my needs, I get depressed.” Threats do not have to be overt to be effective. 16. Anger as Control He: Yells Glares Punches walls Throws objects Gets inches from your face Unpredictable anger creates fear. Emotional Abuse Checklists Don’t Always Include The Subtle Signs Many people imagine abuse as screaming and violence. But emotional abuse is often quiet. Controlled. Strategic. It can look like kindness or even indifference. It can look like charm in public and cruelty in private. That invisibility is what makes an emotional abuse checklist so important. Emotional abusers often: Groom their partners with affection and charm Alternate between warmth and coldness Appear generous to others Build a public image of “good guy” The contrast creates cognitive dissonance. You may trust him more than you trust yourself. Healing begins when you rebuild trust in your own perception. What To Do If This Emotional Abuse Checklist Feels Familiar The confusion, grief, and destabilization of emotional abuse can feel overwhelming. No woman should process it alone. Betrayal Trauma Recovery offers daily Group Sessions in multiple time zones where women can: Share experiences safely Learn practical emotional safety strategies Rebuild trust in themselves Gain clarity without pressure You can also get more education about emotional abuse. Listen to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast Transcript: Emotional Abuse Checklist: How to Know for Sure Anne: We have a member of our community sharing her story today. We’re going to call her Macie. I’m so thankful to all of you who have shared your story. It takes a lot of courage, and it humbles me to hear your stories and I appreciate you. Macie is a single mom. And let’s start with your story. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first? Macie: I did not. I actually did not recognize or was even made aware. I just thought our marriage was normal, happy, healthy, that he was such a great guy. And one of the most selfless people I had ever met. And that was pretty difficult when I started to understand what my marriage really was. He had texted that he wanted a divorce. And not knowing the magnitude of his betrayal and all those choices that he was making. Just the stonewalling, the communication dysfunction, the emotional abuse is so hard. But in my mind, that was not even possible. And because of the type of abuse. It was the withdrawal and not communicate, control that way. Versus the yelling or control by physical demeaning. It was never like that ever. So the emotional abuse is so hard to see until I actually had the truth of the whole story. To see, oh, now I can tell where the manipulation and the blame shifting and all that was taking place. Anne: This type of abuse, it’s not overt. Not like screaming and yelling in your face. And people don’t have the education to see it, and many therapists don’t. You’re in this relationship and you don’t know what’s going on, but you know something’s wrong. Why Emotional Abuse Is So Confusing Anne: During that time, what types of things did you do to try to establish safety and peace in your home before you found out about the pornography use and infidelity? Macie: Again, we had what I thought was a healthy, happy marriage. I feel like a lot of it was, a lot of communication with the children. We both were on the same page about talking to them about pornography. We agreed we wanted to talk to them about it, just like we did drugs or alcohol or anything else. And we both come from families where we have a predisposition for addiction. And so we would explain to them, it didn’t matter what. It could be something. We don’t know what it is, so we need to abstain from many things, including pornography. So I feel like we would check in as a family a lot. We had a really open communication about sex, about social media. We had our kids sign contracts, phones were away. I feel like there was a lot of communication within the home surrounding specifically pornography. Which I feel like is ironic, now I know the truth of what he did. I do feel like that even on a spiritual level, we pray as a family, go to church, that aspect too of having the spirit with you. So those were some of the things we did. The emotional abuse is so hard now, understanding that he viewed pornography and violated my home. which of the following is true about emotional abuse​? Anne: Mm hmm. You’re talking about explicit media, you’re talking about healthy sexuality, thinking he is on the same page with you. And really, it was all just a facade. Emotional abuse is so hard. Did you have any sense then, like deep down, that something was wrong? Or did everything seem fine to you? I mean so many women are wondering, “Which of the following is true about emotional abuse​?” Macie: A year into our marriage, granted we got married in the 90s when the internet was really early. So I found pornography, and at that point I felt super hurt, betrayed and cheated on. But I feel like I never saw or knew of any pornography use from him until the actual discovery of his work phone. But I would have kind of this underlying insecurity. Because there was a lot of lying going on. And I never could pinpoint the purpose. And I learned that a part of the abuse blamed me for his lies. Because my reaction would be so much that I would maybe get too angry. So he was justified in lying to me. And it just didn’t make sense. Some of the things he would lie to me about. And I do feel like there was a lack of empathy and emotional disconnect, especially in our communication. I now see that there was a lot of withdrawal, and it took withdraw, withdraw, and then I’d finally corner him to communicate. Even if it was just me feeling overwhelmed or stressed or that I needed extra help. And it ended up an explosion, and then that’s where it led towards the end to the stonewalling. Emotional abuse is so hard: Financial Control & Lies Macie: I had to literally text him in the home to say, hey, can you meet with me so that we can talk? And I didn’t want to overwhelm him with a conversation too long, so extremely unhealthy. There were also situations with money that didn’t make sense. But he was in charge of the finances. And when I tried to get involved, he didn’t want me to. But then it was a problem that I wasn’t involved. So again, I see that he had control over that money, and he could do a lot of the things he did. Because I was not aware yet. He blamed me for not knowing what was going on. I read some emotional abuse quotes, but they were usually about yelling or saying “You’re stupid” so they didn’t seem to apply to me. ​And several gaps in time, he traveled a lot. He missed many flights. Or they bumped him. And again, it was him saying, hey, I’m getting bumped. So we can have a flight that we can use later for us. But really, he used it for other purposes, and disregard for me. I did not feel like a priority, and I had an injury experience. I think that was the first time I realized how unempathetic he was to me. He just looked at me like I’m leaving town and had a broken ankle. He’s like, I’m out of here for the week and good luck. And I just cried thinking how can this be possible? Emotional abuse is so hard. But I still didn’t want to leave my emotionally abusive husband. Understanding emotional abuse Macie: I have these busy children, and what is going on? I felt like he had changed, but I could never pinpoint it. I feel like if I tried to ask questions, it was always I’m this simple person. It’s you, and so I just knew I had to work hard on me all the time. Because everything was falling apart because of me. He was simple and didn’t require a lot, and he wasn’t mean and angry at me. And he just laid low and kept the peace. He wanted me to tell him what to do, then he couldn’t mess up and I wouldn’t get upset. I did not like that dynamic in our marriage either. Because I felt like this dominant person, but I want to be a team though. I want to work together. Well again, with the withdrawal and communication. When I tried to muster up the courage to talk to him, it would end with me feeling like I don’t value him. And how hard he works, and all the things he does around the house. And I just need to be content with how things are. I now see how sad I was not even allowed, or feel like I could even cry in our relationship. Like to him that it was that emotionally disconnected for me. I gave him all I was: my good, my bad, my stress, my anxiety, wanting to work with him together as a union. Then to see that, not only that, but also to see that he used my strengths against me to do what he wanted to do. Each episode of emotional abuse is so hard to see. When I understood the truth of the emotional abuse and saw that was what he was doing. Emotional Abuse Quotes​ Didn’t Help Anne: Many people don’t understand that stonewalling and not talking about things are forms of controlling the conversation. And people will think, well, he just can’t talk about his emotions, or now’s not the right time. Those type of abusive behaviors are controlling. They’re controlling the conversation, they’re controlling the way you can communicate. And that makes it very difficult, emotional abuse is so hard. You can’t be on the same team when one person’s goal is to shut things down, and make sure she doesn’t find out about things. He’s gaslighting you, and so you’re thinking, well, the problem is me, so I need to love, serve and forgive more. When did you realize that this isn’t working? Did you ever get a sense before he filed for divorce? That, man, I am loving, serving, forgiving, and things just aren’t getting that much better. Macie: I wasn’t googling, “What are the 7 signs of emotional abuse?” Or looking for an emotional abuse checklist because I didn’t even think of that. ​I would go to him with a pad of paper and have him give me a list of things that I would need to work on. And I was just trying to love him more and value him more at work, and never ask questions when he traveled. I do feel like he used those things again. I’m going through therapy working on me, and instead it helped him do what he wanted better. Discovering His Lies Was Just One Emotional Abuse Example I mean, he lived two lives. So it made it easier to be like, well, okay, now I’m a good husband and a great dad. And so she’s happy, Which means she’s not going to question any of this other behavior. So it wasn’t until actual discovery that I realized his layer of lies was actually to get what he wanted. And that was really disturbing for me. Emotional abuse is so hard. Especially when you look at 21 years, you know? Anne: So you’ve got this marriage where something’s not quite right, you’re working harder, you’re trying. Tell me how you found the work phone. Talk about what led up to that, that day. Macie: I think that was one of the things you talk about little red flags, things going off. I did feel like he was being unfaithful. I felt like pornography was involved, but simultaneously I trusted him. He was a spiritual person. So to me whenever I had those feelings, I thought I must be the worst person for even assuming or thinking any of these thoughts. And as I worked, I believed he was also working on our marriage together. Because he didn’t want to go to couples therapy. We’re both individually working on ourselves. And one of the things was to make a date night together or spend more time together, but there were still some inconsistencies there. And I felt like I was definitely pulling more of the weight. Unfortunately, on Christmas morning at two in the morning, I happened to just roll over. And saw his phone, and I could see the truth of a conversation he had with a girl he had been on the phone with through the night. Discovering the Betrayal Was Emotional Abuse Macie: And again, the betrayal of understanding the truth, I thought Christmas Eve was dedicated to the family and us. The truth is he was communicating with this person. He had been with her the week previous. He was planning to be with her after. But additionally, it wasn’t just her. When I went out of that conversation, just to see the magnitude of all that was on his phone was unbelievable and overwhelming. Emotional abuse is so hard. I could not even believe he was capable of that, this was the same person? It was unfortunate, because of Christmas morning. I mean, that’s a day you celebrate every year, and you have so many memories attached. So I had to keep it together. I chose not to say anything. I wanted my children to experience Christmas morning as the best it could be. Because I was super emotional, which again, as I talked about in our relationship, in our marriage, we had to be okay. So my kids didn’t see me cry ever. And so when mom’s emotional and crying, they’re like, what is going on? But Christmas morning happened. Mental vs Emotional Abuse Macie: We spent time with family. And it wasn’t until later that I actually confronted him. And everything exploded from there. My goal was to wait until the next day. But that just didn’t really happen. And so it is unfortunate for my children that I feel like a day that we celebrate, and you have memories that will never go away. It’s like, how was your Christmas? Because that was the question following the discovery that I would get asked by every person. And it’s like, do you want to know the truth about how my Christmas was? How was your Christmas? So it was just that constant trigger. Anne: It’s very traumatic for it to happen on holidays. It’s terrible. Emotional abuse is so hard. Hopefully, this Christmas can be the anniversary of your freedom. Macie: Yes, and I’ve talked with the kids. So how do we embrace? I do feel like the kids triggers are different than mine. And just because their life circumstances and memories are different, and also what they know. But I feel like we’ve talked openly about what we can do, and I am really happy for them that Christmas, even Christmas morning, was great. I think the difference changed in Christmas break for them. And that will be interesting to see how to deal with that. Because mom and dad never fought. And now dad’s arguing, and he’s this new person that we’ve never seen before with this anger. So it was a confusing time for them. And then he moved out, and again, they were confused. Like mom and dad don’t fight, and now dad’s moving out. More Helpful Quotes on Emotional Abuse Macie: It was for them because the emotional abuse is so hard for them to process what was going on. Anne: And shocking, probably Macie: Shocking, absolutely shocking. Anne: You’re an amazing, smart, capable woman who is able to plan and make things happen, who graduated from college. Like, you’re no dummy. And same thing with me, and same thing with all the women who listen to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. We are capable, amazing, brave, strong women. Can you tell me your thoughts on that now that you know what you went through? Macie: Yeah, that’s a great point. I actually get asked a lot. Did you really not ever know? Like, you had no idea. And I am almost embarrassed to say I didn’t. And a lot of that was that I trusted so much in him. But I did not allow myself to trust in myself. Like, when I had my own doubts, I discounted it so easily because of my trust in him. I also think because of the type of abuse, he’s not this loud yelling person. Like I feel like emotional abuse is so hard to wrap your mind around the idea of abuse being the ability to not communicate. Like you said, his control was lack of communicating information to me. I didn’t ever know exactly what was going on. Sometimes even for work, I didn’t know exactly what he was doing. And I felt like those were his lay low, just kind of keep the peace, keep her happy enough. But made it really hard for me to say, well, no, I was not in an abusive situation. Compounding Lies & Realization He Was An Example of emotional abuse Macie: He never came at me. He was supportive to me, and would even encourage me to do things. He never said a mean thing to me ever. How am I in an abusive situation? And. I think that’s when it goes back to the lies. I just see there were so many lies. And over time, and even when he would lie to me, and I would forgive him, then it would happen again. And I felt like it was this compound of lies that I was just trying to process. Like, why are you lying to me about this? If you’re lying to me about this, what else is there? Anne: You’re saying, he never said a mean thing to me. But he did, he told you it was your fault. He told you that something was wrong with you. That is cruel. But it doesn’t feel mean, because you think it’s your fault. So many women say that. Oh, he was nice. And I’m thinking, that’s the meanest thing you could do to someone, is tell them that they’ve got a problem when it’s your problem. Macie: I have told him that he did financially, physically, spiritually, emotionally, like all the betrayal choices he made that harm our family. The one that is the most hurtful are the times he saw me depressed. He saw me feel inadequate. And he saw me crying and I had come to him asking what it is, what’s wrong and what’s going on? He knew what he was doing, but allowed me to believe it was me. And that is so hurtful. It was like a dagger to the heart. Manipulation is Covert Emotional Abuse Macie: And then to take my strengths. Like I’m a hard worker, I want to do hard things and fix things. I would help try to problem solve with him. He was so tired. So it’d be like what’s going on? Well now I know it’s because he was out all night long, he was never sleeping. But I’m thinking what’s going on? How can we problem solve? And he would just allow me to try to help fix things. And I was running on this treadmill that was spinning so fast. I see where had we gone to couple’s therapy, I would have sat there and been like, I’m doing all these things wrong and I need to work harder. It would not have been healthy. I know you’re familiar with Darvo. Anne: Yeah, really quick with Darvo we have some amazing infographics that circulate around our social media on Instagram and Facebook. So if you’re not following us there, please do, because I love to interact with women on social media and hear your comments. So if you do follow us, please comment. Let me know what you think of those infographics and if they’re helpful to you. Macie: When I look at that, it makes more sense to me. Because I would approach him with something that didn’t make sense. And then he would attack me as if like, he couldn’t believe I would believe that. He would defend himself and no, no, no. And then I’d start to feel guilty that I was accusing him or curious or insecure about something. Emotional abuse is so hard: No Validation, Just Blame Macie: Then it would turn around. He became the victim. And suddenly, I was the bad person, because I had come to him to communicate. The communication started with me and ended with me being the bad person. I’d walk away being like, how is this that I just went to him to see how I need help. That I am struggling? Yet I come away feeling like I’m an ungrateful wife. I don’t value him and recognize all the things he’s doing, so it would just come back to me. Then I’d say, okay, what can I do to make it so that he knows that I value and respect all these things, yet I didn’t feel safe. I didn’t trust him. I didn’t feel like I was a priority and was not validated. Instead, it was well, that’s your fault. That’s your fault that you feel that way. I’m a simple person. Like literally he would say to me so often, I am a simple person and I do not require a lot where you dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. Anne: You’re like, no, you actually require texting seven women, so no, you are very, very complex. Macie: Yes, I do not know how he was able to organize all that, honestly. Anne: So for you, what is one of the most difficult aspects looking back on your marriage now that you know the truth about the abuse? Macie: I know he knew the truth of what he did. I got to a point where I was so down and depressed that I actually had to go into a surgery. Feeling like I needed to go Macie: In my mind, I had made a deal with God that I just needed to be taken. My life to be done, because that was, to me, the easiest way to remove myself from the emotional abuse is so hard, and the situation of my kids having to deal with divorce. And that I was this problem. That if I could just remove myself, then everybody would be so much better off. And I left letters for my kids to read. In my mind, I was totally content with being done. And when I came out of surgery, I knew that I was going to fight, I was going to fight for my family, and I was going to do everything I could. And when I found out the truth that, while I was in surgery. He had taken money from our retirement and was putting it in a bank account for a woman he was financially supporting. That to me just blew my mind that I was ready to be done with my life. I was crying on my way up, he knew I was hurting, that I felt so bad about myself, yet he continued that behavior. And that was my low, low point in recognition. Wow, you put those two pieces together, and you see there was a major disconnect. It’s hard, because I know that there were so many lies in our marriage. Emotional abuse is so hard for me to believe anything was ever true. I believed it was good and there were some good times, but I now know that those good times were the buttering up so that he could keep me happy enough. Signing up for a girl’s trip for me, oh, what a great husband. And that’s so nice. Grooming Is Emotional Abuse Too Anne: But the truth was it was grooming. It’s what it was. He was grooming you on purpose to throw you off his scent. Macie: Yeah, that is so hurtful. I got so duped in believing this person loved me, when I don’t believe there was love in this marriage. How did that happen? And how did I not know? So trying to make sense of how as a smart, capable, independent, person, I thought I had a healthy marriage. How did I miss so much? To not know that that wasn’t love that was happening in my marriage? I felt like I was loving and giving. But it was not reciprocated. And that is emotional abuse is so hard to understand. Anne: Yeah, but it was just for him like a cover. For you, you were his facade. Macie: It blows my mind that he is still the victim. Anne: Pornography is abusive. But then he had all these other abusive behaviors. The control of the conversation, you’ve got sexual coercion going on because he’s not telling you that he’s having sex with other people. You know, there’s so much going on there that is seriously sexually abusive, which is physical abuse. So technically, your husband physically, emotionally, sexually and psychologically abused, And people just can’t comprehend that level of abuse. Macie: Right, it’s mind blowing to believe, like you said, as the person I know I am. That I lived that, believing it was healthy. Like I looked at my parents and their relationship, so in my mind, I was aiming to try to do that. Even though I felt like in my communication to him. I didn’t feel like we were a team. emotional abuse is so hard: Spiritual Journey & Reflection Macie: I felt like I was more dominant, because I tried to get him to help or communicate with me. I felt like I was constantly chasing him to try to get him to communicate with me. Anne: He wanted you to do that. He liked that because you were taking the responsibility for the entire relationship in that case. Macie: I was already doing everything. Anne: So, during this time, you consider yourself a spiritual person. You’re having prayers with your husband, you’re attending church, you’re reading the scriptures. Then you find out that God has not expressly told you in so many words, you’re in an abusive relationship. You realize that for 21 years, you were not privy to the truth. How did that affect your relationship with God? Macie: Yeah, that’s a great question. For me, there were a lot of moments along the way. As I’ve reflected on the truth. Where I can see God’s hand to protect me and even prepare me in certain ways. I had an injury that happened that at the time. My husband traveled all the time. And I was devastated. My children were extremely busy. I felt helpless and felt like, why did this happen? This is so frustrating for me. Could I have not had some inspiration to not go? It was playing softball, and I slid into third and broke my ankles. Could I have not had something to not do that? But I now see looking back that that was in many ways, God’s way of making me stop In my tracks. God’s Hand in Protection & Strength Through Adversity Macie: Because there were times when I felt red flags, but I never followed through with it. I just discounted it, but then I stopped and actually looked at my life. And started to see the truth of what it really was. I can’t deny that I felt God so present in my life. Not saying, hey, you’re in this abusive relationship. But I even lost my mom. She died of cancer when I was a teenager. And I feel like even that experience prepared me to have some different strength and perspective that I even taught my kids that helped prepare for this heartache. You know, and understanding, and so I can see where, even through the divorce, there were several things that came my way. And to come across Betrayal Trauma Recovery specifically. Because as you know, sometimes when you’re in it, sometimes a normal therapist, you’re just not getting the right information. So getting the right resources. And I feel like all those things were huge blessings. God blessing me and blessing my children and giving me strength as a mom. Just giving myself a little leeway. This emotional abuse is so hard, I’ve had to lean on other people, and that’s been a hard thing. But I’ve been so appreciative. I’m so thankful for your resources through BTR. It’s amazing, I just cannot get enough information. Trusting in God and Self Macie: I believe God knows me better than myself. Even though what I’m going through seems unfair, I look around me and see so many people going through unfair situations. And I’m thankful for believing in something bigger than myself, that helps give me strength. And I also feel like trusting in myself as I move forward in my life. Because my husband betrayed me and I don’t trust myself. I’m working through that, and that’s why I’m thankful for all your resources to validate what I’m feeling. And to build me and help me move forward as a broken, strong warrior. Anne: Healing, a healing strong warrior, and you will. Thank you so much for sharing your story today, Macie: Thanks for having me. The Emotional Abuse Checklist You Need Anne: Is emotional abuse considered domestic violence? Yes, emotional abuse is considered domestic violence. A domestic violence survivor will share her story with us today. And we’re going to explain why. Because it’s important to understand why emotional abuse is considered domestic violence. In fact, I think it’s the most important one, because physical violence never occurs without emotional abuse. So if everyone can learn to recognize emotional abuse and protect themselves from it. Your chances of physical harm go down drastically. To illustrate how emotional abuse is domestic violence. My book Trauma Mama Husband Drama. really helps, because it is an actual picture book. There are a ton of infographics in the back that illustrate this type of domestic violence and explain why emotional abuse is domestic violence. It’s an extremely quick read. So if you have people around you that are having a difficult time wrapping their heads around what you’re going through, this book is the perfect way to educate them. You can find Trauma Mama Husband Drama on this link, which is my books page. It’ll just take you to Amazon. You can also find it on Amazon. When you purchase it, circle back around and give it a five star rating, because so many women are searching for books, and they find, The Five Love Languages or Men are From Mars, books that are not helpful. So if you rate it, it’ll help women find this podcast. Which is free to everyone, even if they never purchased the book. All right. Evie’s Story: When you Can’t prove emotional abuse in court​ Anne: Now, let’s get to Evie’s story. Welcome. Evie: Thank you so much for having me. I come from a small town, so I met my husband. i had no idea his behavior was the classic example of emotional abuse. All the emotional abuse checklists I’d seen before didn’t have the subtle types of emotional abuse on them. Isolation is huge, but that was the first big hurdle he didn’t have to cross. Because I didn’t have any family or friends in this new state. Already I was vulnerable, just because I didn’t know anybody. And so it’s so much harder when your gut tells you one thing. And you don’t have anybody else that you trust to bounce those thoughts and feelings off of. Initially, there were a lot of silent red flags in our relationship. He was jealous. That didn’t sit well with me. He was very quick to say things like, I love you. And I remember he said I was like, oh. I don’t feel that way yet. It’s been like a month or two. This is very fast. He reacted negatively to the fact that I wouldn’t say it back. And I was like, I just don’t want to lie to you. So things like love bombing at the beginning. It made it that much harder when the love bombing stopped. Because he yanked that away from me. And suddenly it went from, wow, at the beginning of a relationship. All he could do was shower me with compliments and say how much he loved me. And now I’m not getting any of that. Is emotional abuse considered domestic violence? Evie: And so things like that were really big, and arguing with him was very hard. He would make me feel like I overreacted to everything, and that my reactions were not valid. And that he didn’t say or do whatever was brought up. And then I also felt very intimidated. He reminded me about other women he dated. And things he did to them when they left him. And so I remember only a couple months in. He let me know the ways he hurt other women. If I leave, what is he going to do to me? Anne: Were you aware of any exploitative material? Evie: I definitely knew that that was a thing for him. Anne: Did you find that to be a example of emotional abuse, or was it like, “Oh, everybody does this?” How did you feel about it at the time? Evie: Yeah, I don’t know that was something that was at the forefront of my mind. Anne: So you weren’t concerned about the pornography use. That wasn’t necessarily a red flag for you. For me it’s important for women to understand that emotional abuse and infidelity go hand in hand. It’s interesting to me because women who exploitative material is an issue for them. They don’t recognize, that emotional abuse is considered domestic violence? Maybe or the psychological abuse. When they find out about the use, they know something’s wrong, because they know this is a person who has told me he’s not going to use it. So the level of lying there gets intense, but he was lying to you about other things? Financial Abuse is An Example of Emotional Abuse Evie: Definitely, I found out he cheated on me, and I think I had always had that in the back of my mind. When that came out, that was huge for me, and there was some financial abuse, it was emotionally abusive as well. I was always very proud of my career and the fact that I was the first person in my family to graduate and get a degree. So when he put my career in jeopardy, that was the biggest red flag that this was a classic example of emotional abuse. I just wish I had the right emotional abuse checklist at the time, like yours. When I was with him, he took my voice away in more ways than one. And one of those was that he would constantly criticize my writing and wouldn’t let me keep journals. And so I turned to writing and sharing my story to start healing and find my voice after emotional abuse. Anne: Domestic abuse and domestic violence are interchangeable. Someone can be an emotionally violent abuser without ever laying a finger on their victim. I frequently say domestic abuse rather than domestic violence. Just so women who haven’t been hit or punched don’t think, oh, this isn’t for me because I haven’t been physically harmed. And also, many people don’t realize that emotional abuse is a domestic abuse issue. It is under the umbrella of domestic violence. It’s also very typical that it never escalates to physical abuse. Emotional Abuse vs. Physical Abuse That’s when women also get very confused. Because they try to figure out what’s wrong. At least for me and so many other victims that I know, they went through years of emotional and psychological abuse where they couldn’t quite figure it out. And then once a violent act happened. It helped them see what was happening. So I try to help them identify emotional abuse vs psychological abuse is important. To do that you need to have examples of emotional abuse. Evie: Yeah, the emotional abuse vs psychological abuse was important to figure out. The stonewalling and gaslighting have left a toll on me. It’s still something that I’m trying to heal from every day. It’s one of those things where some days I’ll be great, “Oh yeah, my gut was right. This is not okay.” And some days it comes back full force. And I will have the negative self talk in my head. Sharing Examples of Emotional Abuse is Healing I shared my story in your community, so it was in front of a supportive audience. I was able to talk about my experience in your community who say, Hey, yeah, me too, because there’s so much power in knowing that you’re not going through something alone. And knowing that you can heal and grow alongside people. I was fortunate enough to find a community which I clicked with. There were three things that I appreciated. One of them was the power to share my story, get my voice back, and share my truth and not feel suppressed. And the second one was connecting with all these other survivors. I think community was huge. My experience, which was validated, and helped me know that I wasn’t alone. Because it’s so easy to think, wow, this doesn’t happen to anyone else. So knowing there were other women, and for me, they were all older than me. And I was the youngest one going through it at the time. It was great. And then the third thing I got out of it was education. I’m originally from a very small town. And had my story happened back in my small hometown, I would have had that same opportunity. And so It was great to share. No matter where I was, as long as I had internet access. I think those three pieces are huge stepping blocks for any survivor. Anne: Now, I can tell from the way you’re talking that you like the word survivor, which is awesome. I prefer the word victim. What is Considered Emotional Abuse? And I’ll tell you why. not saying this to convince you or anyone else. But the reason why I like the word victim is because survivor to me feels like you survived the Titanic or something, right? Like, you got off the Titanic, and the Titanic sank, and you made it to shore, and you survived. The harm is over, but with emotional abuse and domestic violence it may continue because you share children. And because I share children with the man who is emotionally and psychologically abusive to me, I’m actually, literally constantly a victim. Literally, I’m still technically victimized. I’m still lied about, I’m still harmed through things he says. When I say victims, what I want to say is that women can protect themselves, even though the harm could still occur because they share children or for whatever circumstance. And so the reason I don’t like to call myself a survivor is because I’m like, I haven’t survived anything. I’m still struggling through this as safe as possible with the boundaries I have. What are your thoughts about that, as you’ve talked with other survivors? Evie: Yeah, I think labels are important for people. You know, many people want to go by thriver too. I think it is a popular word that’s surfacing in the survivor community. But yeah, labels are personal for people, so I think whatever you want to identify as, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. It’s your story, and however you want to be identified, that is okay. Anne: Yeah, I agree. I feel like you can thrive, you can survive. And I’m not sure if I will say I’m technically a victim forever. And actually I’m pretty happy and grateful to have the boundaries that I have. When You’re Looking For Counselors for Emotional Abuse​ Anne: The Living Free strategies can protect you. I still call myself a victim because he’s still abusive. Luckily, with the strategies, I can completely protect myself and my kids now. As you know, if you listen to this podcast, sharing stories is what this podcast is about. So if you’re interested in sharing your story, one option is to share it here on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. If you’re interested in sharing your story, please contact podcast@btr.org. As women think about sharing, what are some safety tips you would recommend? Is emotional abuse considered domestic violence: Safety Tips for Sharing Your Story Evie: I think it’s important to listen to your intuition and figure out what is a safe audience for you. Maybe you tell a best friend, and if that goes well. Then you tell a family member, and if that goes well, maybe you tell your circle of friends. I think it’s really important to note that we don’t always get the response we’re hoping for especially with emotional abuse. I told some family members, and I thought I would get support and love, and that didn’t happen. And it’s okay to go at your own pace. If you tell someone and you don’t get a reaction that you should, that’s not on you. That’s on them. And if you want to take a break from sharing your story, then take a break. But if you want to keep sharing your story, keep looking for safe outlets to do so. Tell other survivors. I think that’s important. You know, those can be great ways to share your story. Because you’re sharing it with someone and people who do understand, because they’ve been through something similar. They’ll know how to support you and love you. And so I think those baby steps are important. And if you want to get your story out there to a bigger audience. Yeah, sharing on your podcast is one way to do that. You get to share your truth anonymously. You’re also protected. You do a great job. Because you don’t have to connect your name with your story. You can share your story anonymously and still feel like you’re getting your voice out there. Using Pseudonyms for Protection It’s really just listening to your gut and figuring out, what do I need from sharing my story? And I know for me personally it was, I need to get my voice back. Anne: Every woman on this podcast uses a pseudonym for her own protection. Before I started this podcast, I was actually public speaking about what was happening with my abuser, thinking he was in recovery from addiction. We used our real names and spoke publicly at addiction recovery conferences. When I discovered all those lies that I accidentally promoted someone as a great guy, when he was a wolf in sheep’s clothing. I felt devastated. That was really, really hard for me to deal with. Having had the experience of using my real name and then doing this, I definitely chose to use a pseudonym so that I don’t have to go through that again, because that was awful. So that is one thing that I recommend for victims is to use a pseudonym. It’s helpful to keep you safe. Evie: Yes, absolutely. Anne: I don’t think many non-survivors listen to this podcast. If they do, thank you. I’m honored by you listening. Mostly the people that listen here are current victims of emotional abuse in marriage. The Best Emotional Abuse Support Groups​ Anne: Why do you think it’s important to hear these examples of emotional abuse? Evie: It’s so important. I’m just trying to make sure that if there is one person out there hearing my story, who needs to hear what I’m saying. That’s who my audience is. Because whether they’re not a survivor, or they are, and they just don’t want to come to terms with that yet. I think it’s so important to ensure that we’re just spreading our truth. Anne: Yeah, that is a risky endeavor, to start sharing. The cool thing about when you start sharing is that you’ll know pretty quickly if it’s a safe situation or not. You can dip your toe in the water a little bit and see, is it safe to share with this person, with this group, or with these people? And you’ll know pretty quickly if it’s safe or not. And if it’s not safe, you can just back away. healing from emotional abuse​ Anne: The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop will teach you how to know if someone is safe or not. So, if you’re struggling with that right now, the BTR Living Free Workshop will help. Okay. Now back to years ago, Anne. And then the more you share and assess your emotional safety, the more you can identify a safe group. I think probably in your case, but I’m not sure. Don’t let me put words in your mouth if this is not the case. That now you feel like your support system, not just the other survivors you’re around, but also your friends and the people you interact with, feel safe for you. Is that the case? Evie: Oh, absolutely. Anne: Yeah, and you’ve developed that over time. So that’s awesome. And that’s what can come from reaching out and starting to share. Has anyone seemed safe at first, and then proved not safe? Evie: Yeah, I think that was particularly true with my family, you know, their family. And so obviously they get a little bit deeper level of initial trust and love from you. It’s just so important to have the right emotional abuse recovery That almost hurt the most for me. Because certain family members helped me when I needed to move out. And then later on kind of used my story against me and made me the black sheep of the family. But, as hard as that was, I’m in a good place now where I’m definitely setting healthier boundaries and able to understand what is acceptable respect and love from people. And it’s never easy to cut toxic family members out of your life. emotional abuse how to heal​ Anne: Yep, the longer you go with either no abuse happening in your life anymore. Or in my case, the longer I set pretty strict boundaries to keep me safe from the harm, the stronger we get. In healing from emotional abuse and domestic violence the most important factor is distance from the abuse. And I highly recommend that women join a network of support, like Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group, for example. That runs multiple times a day in every woman’s time zone, which is awesome. I talked to someone the other day. He said, oh, so BTR is a women’s empowerment organization. And I said, yeah, you could call it that, definitely. We want every woman to know she is important, cared about, loved, and doesn’t deserve harm. Anne: Thank you so much for sharing your story on our podcast today. Evie: Thank you so much for having me.
• Emotional Battering: The Invisible Abuse No One Can See 02.06.2026 26Min.

  When emotional battering is covert, each moment looks harmless on its own. A comment, joke, or a nice” surprise might seem harmless. But when you step back and look at the pattern, a very different story emerges, one where boundaries are crossed, and her reactions are used as evidence against her. SEVEN SIGNS OF EMOTIONAL BATTERING Here are seven signs of emotional battering that often go unnoticed, especially when the husband looks like a great guy to everyone else. Her reactions don’t match his gestures. He is doing something that seems nice, but she seems genuinely distressed. It usually means she senses something that other people can’t. If she seems on edge around his kindness. She flinches at affection or looks uneasy when he is charming, it’s usually because she knows that kindness is hiding something that isn’t so kind. If she watches him carefully, she’s probably gauging risk. Hyperawareness is an emotional survival skill. So if she’s being emotionally battered, it’s totally normal that she’s gonna be on high alert for emotional manipulation. Feeling relief when you are away from him is a powerful indicator that something’s really wrong in your marriage. She apologizes for things that don’t require an apology. If she’s apologizing for just stating her opinion, or talking about how she feels, it’s highly likely that she’s experiencing emotional battering. She adjusts herself to constantly keep the peace. His lies that she’s doing something wrong are part of the emotional battering. Her friends notice that she’s not quite herself around him. A woman who’s trying to make herself smaller is not loved in marriage. If she seems quieter or less alive in his presence, that’s a sign that her husband is emotionally battering her. To learn if you are a victim of emotional battering, take this free emotional abuse quiz. WHAT IS EMOTIONAL BATTERING? Emotional battering is a consistent pattern of words, actions, or behaviors intended to manipulate, or control a person. Unlike physical abuse, emotional battering is more subtle and insidious, making it difficult to identify and even harder to explain to others. Worse, an abuser may manipulate others, so you experience emotional battering from people in your church congregation or even neighbors. If you’re experiencing emotional battering from by-standers regarding your husband’s behavior, you need support. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. COMMON EMOTIONAL BATTERING TACTICS Being married and experiencing emotional battering by your husband means navigating daily complexities that are draining and painful. Some common tactics include: Gaslighting: Making you question your memory, reality, or perceptions. For example, he may say, “I never said that,” even when you vividly remember he did. Constant Criticism: Regularly pointing out flaws, whether it’s your cooking, appearance, or parenting, to damage your confidence. Blame Shifting: Over time, you may find yourself thinking, my husband says I’m the problem, because he consistently redirects accountability onto you instead of addressing his own actions. Stonewalling or Silent Treatment: Refusing to engage in meaningful conversations, leaving you feeling invalidated and powerless. Public Embarrassment: Mocking or undermining you in front of friends or family to isolate you and damage your self-esteem. Emotional Withholding: Withholding affection, love, or support to punish or control you. TRANSCRIPT: EMOTIONAL BATTERING – THE INVISIBLE ABUSE NO ONE CAN SEE Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Kiki. Welcome, Kiki. Kiki: Thank you very much. I’m excited to be here. First of all, I wanna thank BTR, because when I was in the middle of a complete breakdown, not understanding what was happening to me, it was only through finding your organization and the help of your team that made me realize that I wasn’t safe. The abuse was so covert that most people couldn’t have recognized it, myself included. I had therapists that didn’t recognize it as emotional battering. And that started a journey into figuring out exactly what had happened to me. And what had happened to my friend. I came home from work one night, and there were police vehicles all over the place. We were told she had shot herself in her husband’s car. And she would tell us a lot of times these stories, and we would look at her like. She’s crazy or she’s making things up because her husband was such a great guy. As I started going through my own stories and learning things after her death, but I was thinking about it the other day, like, you look at the Diddy trial or you look at women who come in and they’re battered. And they still have a hard time being believed. And then you take somebody who has been covertly abused or live in a society where, if your wife isn’t pretty enough or what have you, then she’s replaceable and it’s okay. PEOPLE HAVE A HARD TIME BELIEVING THERE IS EMOTIONAL BATTERING Kiki: People have a hard time believing there was abuse involved, but I left a 35 year marriage with severe CPTSD. I had a psychotic break, and I had to put myself back together. And during all of it, my ex-husband is the hero. My kids aren’t talking to me because I had some big breakdowns and did some things I’m not proud of. And that was like my friend’s story, she would have these breakdowns. You could be just as abused with a fist as you can with a piece of birthday cake. And I know that sounds silly. But it’s so covert, that people can’t see it as emotional battering. And BTR and the women and the professionals that came on here really gave me that push to step into it. Anne: Talk to me about the things your friend did that were totally normal under the circumstances. Like now that you know what you were looking at. So that we can let women who are listening know they’re not alone. If they’ve done something like this, it’s because they were trying to protect themselves. It’s completely and totally normal, and even healthy, when you’re in the situation to try to get to safety in any way that you can. Kiki: Oh, absolutely. There are several things that come up right away. The first one was we always had holiday parties at their house. They had a beautiful pool and her husband said something that seemed very innocuous and she started yelling. You promised me you wouldn’t say that you wouldn’t do this. ABUSE BY THROWING A SURPRISE PARTY Kiki: And she kind of goes off the rails a little bit, and we’re all sitting there looking at her like, what is going on right now? And so I immediately go into my people pleasing it’s okay to… and she’s yelling at me, “No, you don’t understand. You don’t understand what he does. I told him not to do this. He told me he wouldn’t do it. To you it seems innocent, but it’s not innocent.” And everybody’s looking at her. I get her away, and then I get her calmed down. And I go back and her husband is playing the victim. “Oh, poor me, you see, she’s bipolar. She always does this. This is what I have to live with.” And I feel so bad, because at the time, I didn’t realize I was going through it myself. You don’t realize it until after you’re out of it. Another thing, he was just very manipulative. For her 40th birthday, he threw her this amazing party, and everybody was in awe and completely jealous. And she was not happy about it. She told me afterwards, “I told him, I don’t like things like this. And it was just too much. It was way over the top.” And of course, I’m looking at her like I would give my left arm if my husband would throw me a party like this. Of course, he wouldn’t, because he knew I wanted one. Yeah, so there’s the difference. If you want it, you don’t get it. If you don’t want it, you get it. Then every year after that, he would throw her a surprise party and he would go out of his way to get people there, and she would walk in the room. MAKING HER LOOK UNGRATEFUL, UNKIND AND UNCARING Kiki: And we would all yell, surprise, and she would be devastated. then she’d try to put a smile on her face, and she was dying inside. Because how do you walk into the public where your husband has done this beautiful thing for you, but it’s exactly what you’ve asked him not to do? By year seven, she just kind of walked in, and then just went off in the corner and drank too much. She didn’t want a dog, but her son wanted a dog. So on her birthday, he bought her a designer dog and invited several friends to see her get the dog. Now she loved the dog with all her heart, but it was that manipulation tactic to say. Look at what a great husband I am. Here’s this $1,500 dog and you don’t get to complain about it. Anne: Correct me if I’m wrong. But he had effectively made her look ungrateful, unkind, uncaring. Which is exactly what he wanted. Kiki: Exactly. He was a very charming, gracious host, and the door was always open. I lived next door to them. And she could be reactive at times. And I would hear him talking to his son on the side of the house, and he would be saying. Just be quiet. I’ll help you out. You know how your mother is, you know how your mother gets, so he’s completely not supporting her. The biggest thing: the woman who he had a long-term affair with, they ended up getting married and they had a destination wedding. Anne: Did you know about the affair before she died ? Kiki: I did know about it and she knew about it. She was always concerned about it because her husband had told her it was over. ALWAYS PITTING EVERYBODY AGAINST ONE ANOTHER Kiki: But she would get these, Facebook or emails from an email she had never heard of before or a fake name, nobody she knew. That would say, your husband doesn’t love you. At one point, her husband even admitted it was from this woman, and of course, “I love you. I love only you. This woman’s crazy.” So he always pitted everybody against one another, that they’re crazy. Well, he ends up marrying this woman in a destination wedding. On the 10th anniversary of her death, his new wife, who he had an affair with the whole time. Puts up a post on Facebook that says, “I’ve been keeping a secret. We actually got secretly married on the day before the anniversary of her death” And nobody says a word. There’s whispers behind the scenes, but there’s the, Jesus wants us to forgive and forget. And I’m like, no. And that’s when I said, “Uhuh, you know what? I’m not gonna keep quiet.” And you know what? I believe it was soul murder, because that’s how abusers manipulate their victims, especially the covert type. It’s so insidious. It just eats away at your soul, and you completely lose yourself. Anne: That is so strange. Who in their right mind, if they’re a decent person, wants to publicly say that? Having your new wife tell the whole world that they secretly got married the day before the anniversary of when mom committed suicide. Like, that’s not hurting anyone? What? That’s like next level. How did people react to that post? Were they like, it feels like it would be like radio silence, okay, cray cray town. Or were they like, “Oh, congratulations, I’m so glad you did that secretly because she was so crazy.” What was the reaction? REACTIONS TO AN ABUSIVE POST Kiki: Mostly my friends and people who didn’t know her spoke out. It was almost crickets from friends and family, publicly. Several of them reached out behind the scenes or had somebody reach out on their behalf. People seemed afraid to say anything. That’s what they do is gather their minions. I’ve heard he’s sending out paragraphs of these long texts, playing the victim and putting his son in the role of, here’s Kiki hurting my son. He’s retired from the police force, but is now serving as a bailiff. And that’s, one of the things he’s very concerned about is what if I lose my job or what if I lose face, because nothing triggers a covert abuser than being cornered. Anne: It’s really, I would say, shocking that that’s what abusive messages sound like. Because they sound so nice and they sound like he’s the victim, really. It’s awful to think that society in general is so blind and in the dark about what these messages look and sound like. They all look the same. Once you know what you’re looking at, you know how to see it. And my workshop covers that. I took the real life messages from five different, emotionally abusive men and use those and then how to respond to them. And most of them are just not overt. They really sound like nice guys, but when you know what you’re looking for, you’re able to see these are clearly abusive. Kiki: Yeah, it’s really hard , these are people that we had great times with. You don’t understand that they’re being horrible and they’ve got this whole other life. INVESTIGATORS TALK TO ME Kiki: One thing I will say is, the investigator who called me, actually two investigators called me and the one was really good. We talked about coercive abuse. He says, ” A lot of times people think coercive abuse is they lock you in the house or they take away your money. But it’s not always that way.” He says, “I understand what you’re saying.” He said, “Unfortunately, we’re not at the point in our world where it’s really illegal to be a jerk.” But I did send all his text messages to this investigator and said, “Hey, just in case anything happens, I want you to see this.” I don’t think she was terrified of him at all, nor was I of my husband. As a matter of fact, about a month before she passed away, she was with another friend and wanted to hire a private investigator. The friend was going to help her, and then a day or two later she wrote and she said, no, don’t do it. Because even if I find out he’s cheating again, I love my husband and I am not going to leave him. I think she was just so convinced that she was lucky to have this guy . She didn’t understand the covert abuse. I have become this huge investigator on patterns, looking at patterns and trying to figure it all out. Because it is so sneaky and so covert, and it goes over so long. I thought I had the perfect marriage. I didn’t understand until I was out of it. How much of myself I had lost and how some of these things that I had completely normalized, my ex-husband had me convinced that all men think this way and all men do these things. YOU DON’T KNOW ALL OF THE ABUSE YOU’RE EXPERIENCING Kiki: I got married when I was 21 years old. I had never even heard of pornography until I got married. Then we were in the military, and went to the Philippines, where sex was everywhere, so was infidelity. So anytime a husband had an affair, it was the wife’s fault. Because she wasn’t doing what she was supposed to be doing. And even within our group, there were affairs within different couples. The thing was, you don’t take sides. They’re always invited, and whoever shows up, shows up. Of course, it was always the two people having the affair that showed up. And the spouse that was actually wronged didn’t. It always bothered me. I always felt horrible, but I thought, that’s the way the world is. And it’s really sad when you don’t know what you don’t know until it’s too late. Anne: Isn’t it too late the whole time? You don’t know all of the emotional and psychological abuse you’re experiencing the entire time. Kiki: No, you don’t. Until you’re out of it, you’ve lost your mind. You’re blaming yourself for everything. People are dropping out of your life. My ex-husband was married within 30 days to a woman. He’s 70 now, I think she might be 29 or 30. He is the great guy and look, I finally got away from that crazy person. And I’m sitting here in shock as to how I’m the bad person. But that’s because the people we were around, society as a whole, a lot of the times think, time to get a new one. My ex used to do things very covertly. He knew I was always very concerned about my weight. COVERTLY UNDERMINING SELF-ESTEEM Kiki: Of course, he made me concerned about my weight. He would come home and say, I brought us cake for dessert, and tonight when we’re watching TV, we could eat cake for dessert. And I’d be like, okay. It was always the kind of cake, almost 99% of the time, he liked. Not the cake I liked. And we would split the piece of cake. Well, while I was eating my cake, we would be watching TV and there would be some beautiful actress on there, and he’d say something like, “Oh what did she allow to happen to herself? She just turned into such a fat pig.” Like he would say that. And here’s me sitting here. Anne: Wow. Kiki: So used to people talking that way, that I look and it’s this beautiful woman. I say, “Are you crazy? She’s gorgeous, she’s beautiful.” And he’d say, “Well, honey, don’t get jealous or upset. I mean, she’s not 55 years old and she hasn’t had two kids.” So suddenly that cake is just sitting there in your throat, like this lump of cement. That’s how badly I had been groomed. He would say these horrible things and say, all men think that way. That’s how a lot of people thought in the circle we were with. He told me one time. You know how they always tell on themselves? He says, “I’m not really mad at you. I kind of respect you for finally standing up for yourself.” And I just went, oh my, he knew. It’s a game. Anne: It’s a game of exploitation. How much can I exploit her, how much can I get from her? How can I use her without having to give very much? They know they have to give a little bit. CALCULATING TO EXPLOIT Anne: But like, what is the least amount I can give for the most amount I can get? And they’re not caring about us. They are using us. Their motions, as if they care, are calculated to exploit us. They’re like, what’s the biggest bang I can get for this? It’s a completely different vibe that we feel from people when they actually care about us, when they’re not transactional in the way that they interact with us. All of this I talk about in detail in my Workshop , like exactly why this happens and what to look for, to know if they are transactional in their relationships. That means every time he says, I care about you, he’s calculated that in order to get something out of you, he’s not actually caring about you. That’s what makes couple therapy so impossible or going to clergy so impossible, or friends. Because he’ll never actually say the truth of how he feels and what his intentions are. Kiki: Oh yeah. I grew up where love was transactional. I know it’s not my fault, but if I want a healthy relationship, then I have to understand that. Anne: The plane wreck’s not your fault. It’s not your fault that the plane didn’t have supplies on it. It’s not your fault that the plane didn’t have a satellite phone. You are gonna need to stand up and start walking toward the nearest city, and I think that’s what you’re talking about. It is where you’re like, okay, the plane wreck is not my fault. None of this is my fault. However, if I don’t stand up and start moving forward, I’m not gonna survive this. Kiki: Exactly. HOW THEY ACT IS NOT WHAT THEY SAY Anne: That survival starts with recognizing what these liars do and what they say. If we had to boil it down—though it’s almost impossible—it’s this: if you only observed what they did with your eyes and not your ears, what would you see? Most of the time, you would see that how they act doesn’t match what they say. And that’s when women start asking an important question: is lying emotionally abusive? Because when someone’s words and actions never line up, that pattern alone begins to erode your sense of reality. Kiki: Oh, I often say that if my ex-husband’s lips were moving, there was a lie coming out. Even though he presented as the most wonderful, generous person you ever met in your life. He controlled with size. He controlled with victimhood, the poor me. As a matter of fact, most people would tell you in my family that I wore the pants of the family. But the reality was, it was just an illusion. I was controlled from the time I woke up through the time I went to bed. I call it death through thousand paper cuts just all day long. “Did ‘you have to put the ketchup in here like this? Why did you put the dish in here like this? Most women would be thrilled that they have a husband that wants to watch TV with them. Why can’t you come sit down and watch TV?” I’d be like, oh yeah, you’re right. And I’d go running and never understand what was really going on. I think that happens in a lot of marriages, and it still didn’t all add up for me. I had to learn patterns, because to me, coercive meant it was mean, but it’s not always. SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT ON EMOTIONAL BATTERING Anne: You mentioned they can hurt you just as much with a piece of cake as they can with a fist. The most abusive thing someone can do is tell you they love you when it’s not true. They’re using you. They love what they can get from you, but actually caring about you, not so much. Thank you so much. Kiki, you’re incredible for wanting to set the record straight about who your friend was and why she was acting the way that she was. She was doing what any healthy woman would do, not understanding her situation, and trying to create some emotional safety for herself. In the best way that she knew how and she didn’t know what was happening and she didn’t know what to do about it. And that’s not her fault. That’s society’s fault. That’s every therapist that they went to’s fault. If they went to therapy or clergy or whoever, who did not educate her about what was actually happening. Because women in this situation, they do the right thing. They try to get help. They try to get information, they try to listen to their husband and communicate with him more. Whatever it is they’re trying to do, they have good intentions. It’s really unfortunate that bystanders, professionals, people outside, they attribute good intentions to someone. Meaning an abusive man who doesn’t have them. He actually has bad intentions. So, that’s awesome that you’re honoring your friend in this way. I bet she’s looking on you and thanking you for that. WANTING PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND Kiki: I hope so. Yeah, I wanted people to understand who she really was and why she was the way she was sometimes, and even for her son to maybe understand who his mother really was and what was happening. Because I think that’s the biggest travesty. I’m being blamed for hurting the son, but the son is still caught in these dynamics within a system that protects the perpetrator. The truth may hurt, but lies will kill you. Anne: Yeah, oh, that is so true. Kiki: Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity. You’re amazing. BTR is amazing and thank you. Anne: Thank you.
• 6 Things a Cheating Husband Says: What You Need To Know 26.05.2026 34Min.

  If you’ve been betrayed by your husband, you’ve probably replayed every conversation in your head. What he said. What it meant. Here are six things a cheating husband says that may seem innocent, or even remorseful, but are actually manipulative and abusive. You deserve safety. Clarity. Truth. Take my free emotional abuse quiz to see if you’re experiencing this. 1. Cheating Husband Says, “It’s because you were pregnant.” At first, this sounds like a confession wrapped in vulnerability. But let’s be clear: blaming betrayal on your pregnancy is a covert form of abuse. He’s saying, “You made me do this.” He’s shifting responsibility for his betrayal onto your body, and your vulnerability. This isn’t guilt…it’s manipulation. 2. “I’ve had this addiction since I was a kid.” If your cheating husband says this, it might trigger your compassion, and that’s the point. Yes, trauma is real. But past trauma is not a free pass to traumatize others. When a man uses his childhood as a shield against accountability, he’s not trying to heal. He’s trying to keep you from leaving. 3. “Let’s” get help. This one is tricky. At first, it seems like progress. Counseling. Support groups. Healing. But what if he’s lying in those sessions? What if he’s telling the therapist half-truths, or worse, repeating the kind of things a cheating husband says to shift blame onto you? Many women spend years in therapy trying to “fix” the marriage, when the real issue is that he’s abusive, not confused. 4. “You’re just not supportive enough.” If your cheating husband says you’re the problem, he’s counting on you to believe him. Women in these situations often over-function, working double-time to prove they’re loving, patient, faithful. Meanwhile, he’s lying, gaslighting, and keeping secrets. This isn’t a marriage. It’s a mind game. 5. “I’m sober now.” He might say he’s changed. That he’s not using anymore. But his actions don’t match. He’s distant. Emotionally cold. You feel invisible in your own home. But in public? He’s pouring your coffee. Smiling like the perfect husband. This tactic, acting loving in front of others while rejecting you in private, is covert emotional abuse. 6. “You’re emotionally Abusive.” This one is the hardest. When you finally draw a boundary or leave, the cheating husband says you’re the toxic one. He tells your church, your family, your friends:“She’s crazy.”“She ruined the marriage.”“I tried everything.” This tactic is called DARVO: Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender. And it’s one of the most psychologically damaging parts of betrayal. Why It Hurts So Much When your cheating husband says things like this, the trauma goes deeper than infidelity. It’s not just about sex or secrets. It’s about emotional coercion and psychological manipulation. And if you feel confused, isolated, or like you’re slowly losing your grip on reality, you’re not crazy. You’re experiencing betrayal trauma. This interview dives deeper into one woman’s story. Pay attention and you’ll hear how her husband used every one of these to make her thing his cheating was her fault. Transcript: 6 Things Cheating Husband Says Anne: Kathleen a member of our community is on today’s podcast. She’s going to share her story. Welcome, Kathleen. Kathleen: Hi Anne. Thanks for having me on today. Anne: We’re grateful that you’re brave enough to share your story to help other women. We’re talking about how your cheating husband says that it’s your fault. So why don’t you start with your backstory? What was your situation? Kathleen: I guess from day one of my marriage, I felt like something wasn’t right and I could never put my finger on. We were, I thought, happily married, had a child. Then shortly after my second child was born, I just felt that something wasn’t right. Discovering His Infidelity Kathleen: I found out, unfortunately, that my husband was into exploitative material, and that was just devastating. I felt like everything was over. Although I didn’t want to end the marriage, I felt like my perfect world with my newer marriage, my two sweet children, our sweet little family was just ruined. It just was not what I thought it was. We immediately tried to get help. Unfortunately, he was lying to me. He blamed it on my pregnancy with my first and second child—something I later realized is exactly the kind of thing a cheating husband says to avoid taking responsibility. For years this went on with him dabbling in help. I just kept with it, trying to stay strong, trying to stay in the marriage. I never even thought this type of infidelity was abusive. We kept going and we had our good times and then our bad times. When things were bad, they were very bad. Things were good sometimes, but it was really not much to hold on to. So, we went on like this for probably fourteen to fifteen years until we got help together. Through working with them over about a two year period, I started to see, that my husband just did not want to do the work to get better. Which made us pretty much come to a halt. We separated about two summers ago for three months. He was able to come back and about two months after that, he was out for good. Since then, he blamed everything on me. Realizing The Infidelity Was Emotional And Psychological Abuse Anne: Let’s talk about those years of thinking he has an addiction and going down that route for a while. Did you ever consider you were dealing with an emotional and psychological abuser? Kathleen: I had no idea. Anne: And did anyone ever mention it to you? Like he’s been unfaithful, he’s abusive? Kathleen: No, never. If anything, it was the opposite. It was, let’s help him. Let’s see what we could do to help him. Anne: Or he’s such a good guy. We can’t understand why he’s doing this thing. Let’s get him some help. Kathleen: Absolutely. Yeah. Or his past, you know, he had a rough upbringing, so this is why he’s doing it. Anne: Right. Yeah. I often say, I know several people who have had a really super hard upbringing and they’re not abusers. So it’s not really a reason to be abusive Challenges With Clergy Who Don’t Recognize Abuse Anne: . He went for years to a well known Catholic counselor and men’s purity groups. Do you feel like they really understand that infidelity is abuse? Kathleen: Absolutely not. We started with this one counselor, the well known Catholic counselor in infidelity expertise, and I felt like I was blamed in this situation, the same way a cheating husband says things that shift responsibility, and I just bailed quickly. Something in my gut told me, get away. Then, the last year or so, I heard that he might have changed the way he helped women and couples. I decided, let me give it another try. It was at least 15 years later. Unfortunately, it was just the same thing. It was one session and done. No, there’s no change. It’s very unfortunate because these seem to be the people we turn to when you have a problem. It just causes more trauma for the women. Anne: Right, what are some of the things that the priests said to you or did that was so traumatizing that blamed you? Kathleen: In my parish? Yeah, so my parish priest actually supported me. Anne: When you mean support, when you say supported, do you mean financially? Kathleen: Not financially, there’s really no financial support. It was just an emotional support. He listened, he understood. He suggested I might have to separate with my husband, which I took that very seriously. Maybe four months later, we separated. After my husband went and talked to the pastor and the parish priest, both decided to take sides with him, which I don’t even know why a side had to be taken. Cheating Husband Says OTher’s Should Stay Neutral Anne: I can tell you why. Kathleen: Go ahead. Anne: A side does need to be taken. A neutral party will always benefit the perpetrator. The problem is, most of the time, they side with the perpetrator. instead of the victim. Because in an abuse situation, there’s a perpetrator and a victim. If you stay neutral and say, well, she’s got her side of the story and he has his side of the story and the truth is somewhere in the middle, that means that you believe what he is saying a little bit. These are some of the confusing factors when deciding if you should stay married after infidelity. Maybe she’s lying a little bit rather than recognizing, no, this is a perpetrator. He’s going to do everything he can to avoid accountability and blame his victim. And a victim who’s telling the truth, who’s trying to get to safety. So, it’s really important for people to take sides, but they need to take sides with the right party. They need to protect the victim. Any type of neutrality or even thinking, well, he couldn’t be that bad, is harmful to the victim. Since infidelity is abusive to partners, taking the right side is important. When Cheating Husband COnvinces Others It’s Your Fault Kathleen: Right. And that’s a lot of what I’ve been experiencing. He’s been getting into the ear of anybody who knew us and telling them how horrible I have been, the same kind of story-spinning a cheating husband says to protect himself. Getting back to the priest, the priest was the one who was spreading that I was a liar and I have manipulated the entire situation. Anybody in this situation that I was in would have taken the advice he gave. Which, I don’t even know what help he was talking about. Anne: This is one of the ways abusers manipulate their victims. People don’t understand that an abuser claiming that his victim is the abuser is abuse. Kathleen: Absolutely. So, this abuse has not only extended to him lying to everybody about you and blaming you, but also roping third party people. Like a priest in your parish or other people, to also abuse you through blaming you. When CheatinG Husband Says It’s Because of You Kathleen: That’s exactly what’s happening now. I can honestly say that this secondary abuse is way worse than what I experienced directly from my husband. Anne: Why would you say that is? I agree with you. I’ve experienced it as well. And I agree. But for our listeners, in your opinion, why do you think that is? Kathleen: Well, I think, first of all, it’s my own healthy pride. I want to be an upstanding Christian and a good person. Now people see me as a liar and a manipulator, which I’m not. The other part of it is that, I’ve lost my community. I had to leave my church and go to a different church. It’s very hard because I feel like a lot of people look down their nose at me and I just try to hold my head high and have faith in God to get me through. Recognizing The Full Extent of His Infidelity Anne: When did you realize that all these years of, “Something’s not quite right.” When did you realize that was just flat out emotional and psychological abuse and coercion? Kathleen: I always knew that it wasn’t right. I knew it wasn’t healthy, but I didn’t realize it was abuse until after our second separation. When surfing the internet one night looking at abuse and decided to call our local abuse shelter. I called and said, I don’t know if I’m being abused. From the information that I gave them about what happened to me, they assured me that I was absolutely being abused. They also helped me to see that other behaviors that had happened in our marriage were abuse that I didn’t even realize were wrong, not just the things my cheating husband says, but the patterns behind them. I mean, I’ve been emotionally, psychologically, financially, and even physically abused. I didn’t realize I was also being physically abused. Anne: Did that shock you because you’d never called an abuse specialist before, right? You’d always called maybe a marriage counselor or, some type of clergy or some kind of addiction specialist. Were you shocked that immediately right out of the gate, these people never talked to you before? We’re like, yeah, this is super abusive and that you’d never heard it from anyone else. Kathleen: I was, and I felt it was such a disadvantage. Going through this, it was always focusing on his infidelity. I was always searching for addiction services for spouses, the help for that, and I couldn’t find anything to help with what a cheating husband says. But all the behaviors surrounding it make it abuse. Finding Support and Betrayal Trauma Recovery Kathleen: It was mind boggling and maddening to know that there was nothing out there. I never wanted to go to marriage counseling for some reason. I knew in my gut, it was not a marriage issue. It was infidelity and it was his problem . So I was grateful for that, but it was hard to find help. Anne: When did you find Betrayal Trauma Recovery? Kathleen: I think I found it probably about a year and a half ago, maybe two years ago. Just found BTR online and saw there was The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast and religiously started to listen because it was the only place that got it. Anne: What did you think after years of the, help him, be gentle with him because he has these childhood problems. Let’s try not to trigger him, don’t shame him, are you a good wife? Are you giving him it when he needs it? What did you think after coming to BTR and listening? What did that feel like for you? Kathleen: I just felt like there was a place that understood what it really was and I knew that it was the right place to get the information that I needed to educate myself. Lying, Manipulation, Gaslighting ARE Infidelity Anne: It’s like you know it in your gut, but you don’t have words for it. You don’t have a place to process it appropriately. If you try to process it with the addiction people and they tell you, no, it’s you and you need to be patient then it halts your processing, it stops you. It’s like floating around, but you can’t ever grab it. It’s like foggy and you can’t quite get out of that fog. Kathleen: Right. I always knew, I always had the gut feeling and I would thankfully go with my gut feeling, but I could never put my finger on where things were going wrong. I mean, I never caught him using it again, I always was asking myself the question is he using or is he not? He claims sobriety. Those claims, the things a cheating husband says, kept me doubting myself.But based on what I know now and looking back, I know he was still using. I know he was because I know the way he behaved, it’s obvious because infidelity is abuse. I know the way that he kept me at a distance. He wouldn’t engage with me at all emotionally, which devastated me. It was like I was a stranger in our house, but outside he acted like husband of the year. He would get coffee for me in front of other people. He would act like he was just so in love when he was with me in public, which is part of the reason why people just don’t understand the situation and they believe him that I’m the liar and the manipulator. Secrecy Of Infidelity Makes It Traumatic Anne: When you changed your outward talk from did the third party people get more angry with you? Are they like, whoa, wait a minute. You’ve said he’s a addict. Now you’re claiming he’s an abuser? Did they get more upset? Kathleen: Well, not really because nobody knew he was a user. That was secret. It was my own private secret that I lived in. My family didn’t know. Our friends didn’t know. Nobody knew. I didn’t tell people. I was very much ashamed that was in our marriage. Anne: Okay, did you tell people when you recognized it was abuse, did you start saying, he’s abusive? Kathleen: Once we were separated for the second time and it was pretty much out there that we were no longer together. Yes. I told people that he had abused explicit online media and that he was abusive. I was trying to get myself to safety. My family is so supportive, tremendously supportive, even more than I even thought that they could be. I’ve had friends that I wasn’t that close with, but they understood because of their own experiences through their life. They are like a rock to me, but then a lot of people that I thought I could count on, just disappeared or sided with him. People Who Are Uneducated About Infidelity Don’t Know It Causes Trauma Anne: Yeah. I’ve seen that happen too. It’s really interesting. Even a couple of friends that we had that her husband is also a user have decided to side with my ex. They’re still married. I wonder if they think, well, if we talk to Anne, she’s so intent on saying infidelity is abuse, maybe our marriage would be in jeopardy, so we don’t want to go down that route. I’m not sure why they’ve decided to do that, but he’s still exhibiting abusive behaviors from my perspective, but of course they can’t see that. Why would you want to be friends with an abuser? That makes no sense to me, Kathleen: Right. Anne: Also I think we can clearly see that they’re lying and manipulating people, but they can’t see it. Kathleen: No, and there is a part of me that has a little sympathy for the third party people. I believed my husband’s lies for years. I mean, my whole relationship was based on the lies a cheating husband says to protect himself. Anne: Yep, and if we couldn’t see it, they don’t even live with him. Of course it would be hard for them to see it too. Kathleen: Right, he’s good at lying. Anne: Good at manipulation, good at grooming, really. Kathleen: Absolutely. Anne: A lot of women are hoping that their relationship will work out and hoping that once he’s confronted about his abusive behaviors he will get into some type of program and get help. Importance of Truth & Full Disclosure In What A Cheating Husband Says Anne: If they go down the addiction recovery route, many programs do what is known as a full disclosure. Where the abuser is supposed to outline all of his indiscretions, but doesn’t necessarily include all abuse episodes. Since you went down that route for a little while, did you ever have a quote unquote full disclosure with the help of an addiction specialist? Then you have to figure out if your husband’s apology is genuine. Kathleen: No, unfortunately I did not. Anything that I found out about my husband was either me finding out by catching him or him over the years, basically, drip feeding me information and I would figure things out. Anne: You say unfortunately. Is that something that you think would have helped you or why did you say unfortunately? Kathleen: I say unfortunately because without any truth, there is no basis for your relationship and I never received truth. That’s part of the reason or a main reason why my marriage fell apart. If he was truthful with me, I feel like maybe we could have fixed things and worked on it better. Anne: A lot of people get a full disclosure, but it’s not a full disclosure. So there are times where a cheating husband says he’s told the whole truth, but it’s not the full truth. And that, fake full truth is very difficult for victims because they think, oh, finally we have the whole truth. Discovering The Truth Is Difficult Anne: But they don’t. The other thing I think is interesting is, fake histories that they might give as excuses. I am not about to say that your husband wasn’t actually abused, but some of them do say things like that as an excuse. For example, I know of one abuser who told his victim that he was abused by a neighbor, but she is now 100 percent convinced that he abused the neighbor. Kathleen: I believe there could be some truth to that. I took what my husband told me with a grain of salt, but he said he was abused, I took it seriously to protect my children. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s one thing that’s difficult to know when you’re dealing with an abusive and manipulative man who is willing to lie at all costs, is that truth that you think you know might not be the truth at all. A full disclosure might not be a full disclosure. I want to give women who think, I wish I could have gotten a full disclosure and he would have told me the truth. If someone does not want to tell you the full truth, they might pretend to give it to you. That might be as harmful as not knowing anything. When we’re dealing with someone who lies at this scale, What worries me is the fake truth that women think that they receive and then they feel safe because they feel like they’ve received it all when it’s just the tip of the iceberg. Women Feel Betrayal Trauma Because Cheating Husband Says It’s Her Fault Kathleen: That’s a good point and I think that with my husband, the way he is, nothing that ever came out of his mouth to me was truthful. Early on, I did pray to God to let me know what I needed to know. I guess I’ll just be grateful that I know what I know and that’s all I need to know. Anne: Isn’t that interesting. As women of faith who decided to divorce, can we talk about your decision to divorce or are you divorced? Kathleen: Not officially. I actually separated from my husband with the intent for him to go get help. Through that time, he chose to go live with his, suspected abuser, or at least who he claims abused him. He went to live with him for over a year. It was his brother. Anne: His brother. Okay. So he chooses to go live with the person who he has told you abused him? Kathleen: Yes, which was a huge red flag to me. Because he claimed this, but then went to live with him. Then he decided about a year ago that he wanted to file for divorce. Anne: That sounds really similar to my story, by the way. My ex claimed that he was abused by his parents and that his parents were really abusive, but hangs out with them all the time, without saying that their behaviors have changed. There is no claim, they’re totally different now. Navigating Community Judgment And Isolation WHEN A CHEATING HUSBAND SAYS YOU’RE THE PROBLEM Kathleen: Right now I’m really struggling with the community thing. It’s really tough to live in a community of people. It’s even where I work. The school that I teach at is where my children attend and it’s part of a small Catholic community. There I am working amongst people who think what my cheating husband says is true…that I’m the liar and manipulator and the marriage ruiner. So, it’s tough. Anne: That is really, really hard. I am very sorry. I pray often that the truth is known to people somehow. There are days, do you ever do this? Where you read the local newspaper, thinking that you’ll see him in the newspaper? Do you ever do that? Kathleen: I feel like someday I will hear that he has like either a DUI or was arrested or something. Anne: Yeah. Kathleen: He works at a local high school, so. Always worried about that as well. Anne: It’s so strange to think that someone who has not taken any accountability is still just walking around. Not only just walking around, but affecting your life at such a level. Especially when you are the victim of his abuse without people really acknowledging or being compassionate or empathetic about your situation. Instead, being more judgmental, it feels more isolating. Kathleen: Right, yeah, it does. Then, you get your wishy washy people who say, I don’t want to choose a side. That’s probably one of the worst things you can say to somebody who’s abused. Especially if her abuser has covert narcissist traits. Because it’s like, “I don’t take you seriously.” WHEN OTHERS SIDE With WHAT A CHEATING HUSBAND SAYS Anne: Yeah, I don’t believe you. I confront people about that. I would not recommend it, by the way. But I say, you need to pick a side. Because I’m a victim of abuse and he’s a perpetrator. Would you like to stand with a victim and stop enabling a perpetrator, or not? Kathleen: Right. Anne: They don’t like that one bit. People feel very uncomfortable about that. Then they think, Oh, she really is crazy. Kathleen: It’s amazing how their crazy look makes us look more crazy. Anne: Instead of thinking, Oh, they don’t like us, or they don’t like what we say about abuse, or they think we’re going too far when we call these guys abusers. I think it’s more strategic to have a surprised posture, in your head. You don’t want to like insult people, like, that’s surprising to me. I didn’t know that you were here from 1830. In a time machine and that you didn’t know abusers do this and that what you’re saying is an extension of his abuse. Well, weird. I mean it’s more strategic to have an attitude or an energy about us that is more surprise than traumatized. It’s impossible to not be traumatized when someone says something triggering, that’s obviously harmful, that’s not empathetic, or not caring at all. It’s impossible not to be hurt by that. I wonder if we all took this, I’m shocked. A therapist wrote and said, I don’t agree with BTR’s model. I don’t think it’s abusive. So I can’t associate with you. My first email to him back was like, I’m so sorry. That makes sense. I wish you the best. EMOTIONAL ABUSE AND WHAT A CHEATING HUSBAND SAYS Anne: Then I thought, wait a minute. I’m not going to write this. I’m writing, Oh, I’m surprised to hear that lying and manipulation are emotional and psychological abuse. That’s what I wrote. He wrote back and said, Oh, I do. I recognize it’s abuse. I just don’t agree with what BTR says. And I’m like, Hmm? He said, I don’t think infidelity is abusive, is what he said. This is a prominent therapist out there. Kathleen: Wow. Anne: And I was like, Okay, whatever. Kathleen: That’ll leave me to believe. Well, what’s going on in your world? Why are you, defending it? Anne: Yeah. Why would anyone think that viewing someone abusing isn’t participating in abuse in some way? Or at the very least sending your energy somewhere other than your wife. What do you want to call that? If you don’t want to call it abuse. Kathleen: I call that infidelity. Anne: Infidelity is also abusive, right? Why are you so afraid of the word abuse? Kathleen: I guess because it’s so strong and so many people think of it as hitting their wife, instead of what a cheating husband says. It’s so just extreme to call something abuse. I think that’s part of the problem. People need education on it. Anne: What you went through is extreme. To say that, it’s too extreme to call it abuse. You went through years of psychological and emotional abuse and coercion. You are still a victim of abuse in your community from a perpetrator who is talking to your community about you and lying about you. The Ongoing Struggle With Abuse Anne: If you don’t call that extreme, what is? In terms of the way it affects you on a daily basis, that is extreme. It’s abuse. There’s no other word for it. Kathleen: Right. He’s still able to be in contact with me, unfortunately, because of our children, which leads the door open for him to continue to abuse me. Anne: Exactly. You do your best to set boundaries, you do your best to heal, all those things that are healthy. It’s not impossible. You will live an amazing life, and things will get better for you over time. But they don’t understand that there’s no way to stop him from abusing you. Kathleen: Right. It’s a shame because, our judicial system and even co-parent counseling, they just don’t understand how what a cheating husband says can hurt you. And it’s difficult because the boundaries that you set up are torn down or changed because you have to follow. Anne: The parenting plan or something. Kathleen: Yeah. Parenting plan or some kind of legal plan. Anne: This is why I created my Clarity After Betrayal Workshop. Have you ever talked to the legal system or your attorney about being emotionally and psychologically abused and you need a parallel parenting plan? Kathleen: He is very well aware. We just started a second co-parent counseling and I do want to ask if we could do a parallel parenting plan. Anne: Yeah, it’s a difficult situation, and it’s ongoing, divorce doesn’t stop the abuse. It can protect us from a lot of things, but it can’t stop the things a cheating husband says. So that’s what’s really difficult. And so many victims now are praying and praying and praying for justice all over the world. Faith And Frustration In the Face Of Abuse Anne: It feels like we pray and pray and pray and that our prayers aren’t answered. Kathleen: It’s kind of like any relationship. There are times I feel like God is right by my side and that’s what gets me through the day. Then there are times that I’m asking, “Lord, where are you? I don’t feel you.” So, it’s hard, I always have faith in our Lord, I know He is there, but to feel Him just makes it so much more doable to get through the situation. Kathleen: It’s tough, I couldn’t do it without my faith, I couldn’t do it without God, and I am grateful for that, but it’s hard, and I too pray for truth, I’m like, Lord, I need truth to come out soon. I need it soon. So, hasn’t been answered yet, but I know that God is always working in mysterious ways. I’m just living in hope that it will come out at some point. Anne: Yeah, I had a discussion with God the other day. He was like, I answer so many of your prayers. You just don’t notice because you’re focused on these other ones, you know, kind of like that. And I was thinking, but I don’t care about those other ones. These are the ones I want you to answer. Answer them now. Why are you not answering them? I’m so mad at you. Hopes For Divine Intervention Anne: It is frustrating to feel like he helped me with this and he helped me with that, but why can’t he help me so I don’t have to have any more contact with my abuser, which is a really big thing. Kathleen: Right, That’s one of my prayers as well. I find it going to, like, sinful thoughts sometimes, which I try not to do. Anne: Like him getting hit by a bus? Kathleen: Totally, it is an accurate answer, it also, to me would be protection for my children because they are abused as well. Anne: Exactly, yeah, I wonder about all those Old Testament stories of the wicked being smitten. I don’t know, but I know that the best we can do, if we’re women of faith, is to be obedient. Obedient to the commandments and do the best we can under a very difficult situation. Kathleen: Right, and hopefully in God’s time, it will all come out. Anne: If you could go back in time and share with your younger self what would you tell her? Kathleen: I guess to go with your gut feeling. If you are doubting anything about what a cheating husband says, don’t second guess it. Look into it a bit more, be sure of who you marry and spend the rest of your life with. Educating Future Generations Anne: It’s interesting though, if you don’t know what you’re looking for, you could spend time with them and not see it. We all spent years with our abuser and we didn’t recognize we were being abused. That’s why it’s important to me that women know that you’ll experience if your cheating husband says it’s your fault. Kathleen: Right. And that is what happened. And I had some odd dreams that happened and I pretty much ignored them. Which I wish I didn’t do. Anne: Yeah, when you have no context for it, it’s difficult to see. Anne: That’s one of the goals of our daily online support group for betrayal trauma is to educate women all over the world about abuse, about what it looks like so that we can educate our children, so if they have a dream, they have context for what they’re experiencing. Kathleen: Right. Yeah, hopefully it’ll be easier for my children down the road. Anne: Kathleen, thank you so much for being brave and sharing your story. Kathleen: Anne, thank you for the opportunity to share my story. It’s, definitely helpful to know there are other women out there that understand, and I’m not alone in this.
• The Truth About Signs of Emotional Manipulation in Marriage 19.05.2026 20Min.

  For many women, signs of emotional manipulation don’t stop with their husband. It often spreads outward, into families, faith communities, friend groups, and even professional support systems. Emotional manipulation can be especially destabilizing when it comes from people a woman expects to be supportive. Friends, family members, clergy, therapists, or neighbors may unintentionally reinforce harmful patterns, leaving her feeling isolated, blamed, or unsure where to turn. Here are seven signs of emotional manipulation that often appear after a woman reaches out for help: 7 Signs of Emotional Manipulation When SEeking Marriage Help 1. Advice that centers on him instead of your emotional safetyComments like, “He needs your support” don’t take into account that he might be lying or manipulating you. 2. Spiritual or moral language used to silence you.Phrases like, just forgive or don’t keep score, pressure women to look on the bright side, when really they need to seek emotional safety. 3. Undermining reality.Statements such as “it’s not that bad” or “you’re overreacting”, erase facts and blur the truth. 4. Discomfort disguised as reassuranceOften when someone is uncomfortable with hearing the truth, they rush to shut it down with statements like, “Everything will be okay.” When really they’re just pressuring a woman to stay silent. 5. Protecting his image over the truthIf you go for help and the people you ask for help are more worried about protecting his image than they are the truth, they might say something like, “You shouldn’t talk about your husband like that.” 6. Isolation through nicenessWell-meaning nice responses can leave you feeling alone, misunderstood, and less likely to reach out again. 7. Pressure to explain, convince, or educateBeing expected to justify why emotional manipulation is harmful drains energy that is needed for healing. Recognizing these patterns is an important step toward clarity. Emotional manipulation becomes even more powerful when it is reinforced by others, especially at the moment a woman is seeking understanding and support. How Education Helps You Recognize Signs Emotional Manipulation Sooner Many women have found answers listening to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. Our BTR.ORG Group Sessions are a safe place to ask questions, process trauma, and express your emotions. If you’re unsure if what you’re experiencing is normal or toxic, take our free emotional abuse quiz to see if he’s using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse. TRANSCRIPT: Signs of Emotional Manipulation in Marriage Anne: I love hanging out with my good friend, Kate. Today we’re talking about signs of emotional manipulation, not just from your husband, but from other people he’s using to manipulate you. Because if he is manipulating you, he’s sometimes saying things in a loving, kind way and so he’s gonna talk to other people that way, and they’re gonna be like, “He seems so nice.” This is something that almost all 200 of the women that I’ve interviewed have faced, and Kate is really good at explaining why this happens. Kate: It’s not just religious. All culture is like, “Oh, you got to support your husband. You got to be the good wife.” I’m just like, “Support? What kind of support are you thinking? You mean like the first two years we were married where I just gave him so much love and support and it was amazing?” and then he lied. Anne: Sometimes really well-meaning people don’t realize that he’s been manipulating them. It’s extremely destabilizing when they don’t know what’s happening. Kate and I are going to focus on the manipulation that comes from outsiders like therapists, clergy, friends, family, whose responses, even though they’re well-meaning can leave women feeling isolated, blamed, or unsure of where to turn. So if you’re having marriage trouble, you need to hear this. We’re gonna talk about how you might respond to these comments. A lot of these responses might be for our own entertainment or benefit, like in our own head. We wouldn’t necessarily say this out loud, right, Kate? Kate: Yes! Anne: We need to be strategic in the way that we speak. If you’re interested in learning strategy, please take my workshop, go to btr.org/workshop where I give detailed instructions about strategic ways to respond to manipulators. Emotional Manipulation Through Well-Meaning But Hurtful Comments Kate and I aren’t necessarily doing strategy today. We’re more doing like what you can think in your own head so that you can feel better. So Kate, What’s a really common thing that betrayed women hear from outsiders who don’t actually understand the situation?  Let’s just start with like rapid fire stuff we might hear from outsiders who have been manipulated. Kate: “Oh, you shouldn’t out your husband.” Anne: When they say, “out”, they mean you shouldn’t tell people the truth about what’s going on. Kate: If I say at church or anywhere that my husband is a addict, I’ve had people tell me, “Oh, you shouldn’t out your husband like that.” I’m like, “What? If he didn’t want to be outed, he shouldn’t have done it.” Anne: I know, and I shouldn’t have married him apparently. Kate: I love my story, I get to say whatever I want. It happened to me. He made his bed. Anne: And he shouldn’t have looked at it. So we’re even. Kate: If he didn’t want it, he shouldn’t have done it. Anne: Here’s another one a lot of people say, “He just needs your support.” Kate: Blech! Anne: Yeah, when we’re going for help, we’re telling people what’s going on, and they come back at us with a statement. Like if someone’s in addiction, they’re going to need your support and help. It feels terrible. I think in my head. Like what matters right now is what I need. I need his honesty. I need his fidelity. Kate: I’m like, “Support? What kind of support are you thinking? You mean, like the first two years we were married, where I gave him so much love and support, and it was amazing? And then he lied.” The Reality Of Supporting An Emotionally Manipulative Husband Anne: I supported his butt out of the house. Kate: I supported him by doing what was best for me. Anne: Which was best for him. Kate: Yes. Anne: This one I’ve actually said to people, but I couldn’t say it with a smile on my face. I was saying it out of pain. I said something like, “No one should ever ask a victim to support their abuser, ever.” It is important to point this out so women know how to recognize victim blaming. Kate: It’s so true. What do you mean to support him? You mean what I’ve already done for so long and it didn’t work? We’ve given them so much support. Anne: Yeah for me, I was managing things, so well. Supporting him so much that I didn’t realize how bad it was. Also those general principles that everybody tells us, like love, serve, forgive and support that are principles I believe into my core. I wasn’t willing to ditch those right off the bat and go with safety. I mean, I had to try supporting him. So I had to try making his therapy appointments and all that to get, to gain my own realization. That it was not going to work. What do you think? Have you ever met a woman who just went straight to boundaries. Kate: No, actually. I think it’s kind of normal. And I don’t necessarily see it as a bad thing. I see it as you have to try this one way to know it doesn’t work. It’s not just religious. All culture is like, “Oh, you got to support your husband. You got to be the good wife.” We are loving people, and we try it. Of course, we’ll want to help someone. Signs Of Emotional Manipulation: The Chocolate Cake Analogy Kate: Let’s say our husbands were healthy people and struggling. It would be good for us to help them. But yeah, we have to learn that our help will not help them like we think it will. Anne: Let’s say you bought a giant chocolate cake from Costco once a week. And your husband. Is like, Hey, I don’t want to eat chocolate cake anymore. Would you mind helping me? You’re like, “Sure, what can I do?” And he says, “Would you mind not buying chocolate cake from Costco every week?” And you’re like, yeah. No problem, happy to do that. And then he’s grateful. and he says, “Thank you for not buying chocolate cake. I super appreciate it.” And that’s it. You don’t buy the cake. He doesn’t need it. No big deal. When he ate chocolate cake, it didn’t hurt you. And it’s no big deal to not buy it. But with viewing explicit content he’s essentially gaslighting you and victim blaming you saying. “I need help not hurting you,” which is essentially saying, “If you did something different, I wouldn’t hurt you”. Kate: Exactly, it comes from the entitlement and resentments, so frustrating. Unhelpful Reactions From Others Anne: Another one I encountered was a woman who lived in my ex’s neighborhood, and I knew her from before. ” I said, I’m concerned about my kids. Can you keep an eye out for them?” I told her a little bit, and the whole time she looked uncomfortable. Instead of saying, “Of course, I’ll keep an eye out for them. This must be stressful to you!” She said, “It’s okay. I don’t know why you’re freaking out. Your kids are going to be fine.” I couldn’t think of anything to say in that moment. I don’t know if I should have said anything. I think I might’ve said, “It’s not okay. It’s not okay.” Then I just walked off because I was super mad. Kate: That makes no sense. I think I would have been like, “Thank you, I feel so much better! Yes, that is so helpful. Okay, not freaking out now.” Then just walk away with this ridiculous fake smile. Anne: You know what’s crazy? You saying it’s gonna be okay erases all the facts. I appreciate you waving your magic wand of the words, it’s okay, which apparently in your mind are magic and they make facts disappear, thank you. Kate: “You just magically made my husband better. Thanks!” Anne: “Or the situation, is now fine. Yeah, thanks.” Other things you can think of? The Misuse Of Forgiveness Kate: Forgiveness, “Just have a little more forgiveness for your husband.” Anne: When people say ‘forgiveness’ now, do you know Hamilton? Kate: Yes. Anne: ♫Forgiveness♫ I’m not singing it right because I can’t sing, but that word, when they sing it like that, it’s like this burst of peace coming through and happiness. It feels cool in the musical. For those familiar with Hamilton, you might know what I’m talking about. If you don’t, sorry, I didn’t mean to ruin it for you. Kate: Actually, when you said Hamilton, I was thinking of the stand up comedy from Katherine Ryan. I don’t know if I can watch Hamilton now because I will be thinking of her the entire time. Anne: Wait. When I said Hamilton, you were thinking who? Kate: Katherine Ryan does a stand up about Hamilton. She calls out the misogynistic crap in some of the parts. It is so funny. Anyway, sorry, sidetracked… the forgiveness. I’m like, “What do you mean forgiveness?” If it was something that was in the past and the threat was over, I could maybe understand. Even then, it’s still nobody else’s business. Forgiveness is not like all of a sudden, “okay, I’m done.” Sometimes it’s like baby steps. There are so many little things to forgive. It’s not just one big lump thing. So when someone says forgiveness, I’m like, “yes, maybe when the threat is over and I’ve had time to cool down.” Anne: Like how is me forgiving him going to stop him from harming me? This is the truth about forgiving abuse. Kate: Yeah, it doesn’t make any sense. Anne: I think this is a useful exercise. Forcing forgiveness is an effect of spiritual abuse. Signs Of Emotional Manipulation From Unsafe People Anne: There are safe people who we could actually have a conversation, explain how we feel, and talk about these things. They would be like, “Oh, yes. I’ve never thought about that before and I totally see it. I’m so sorry.” I have a super good friend who when neither of us knew what was happening, she said all the wrong things. But when I started talking to her about it and how I felt, she got it. She’s a safe person because she understood. She was like, “I can’t believe I said that stuff to you. I am so sorry. I was only trying to be helpful and I totally missed the boat.” The problem with trying to have a witty comeback or just the right thing to say to someone when they don’t understand is number one, you could hurt a safe person. Like if you’re snarky or sarcastic, it could actually hurt their feelings, and then it could push safe people away. The second thing is that if they’re never gonna be a safe person, you’re just setting yourself up for your abuser to groom other people around you that it’s your fault. They’ll think, “What is wrong with her? She’s rude.” Or, ” She doesn’t forgive. She doesn’t live a biblical life. Doesn’t she know she’s supposed to submit?” Kate: ” She’s must be so mean. Oh, the poor husband!” People Feel Sorry For Husbands Anne: I think in, at least our church culture, Kate and I have the same faith, a very outspoken woman, sometimes people feel sorry for her husband. Do you think that? Kate: Oh my gosh, yes. A million times over, yes. They will always feel way more sorry for the man than the woman. It’s obnoxious. Even my own family has done it. Everybody knows, it’s not a secret, Anne: But Kate: There was one time I mentioned in front of family members. He’s sitting right next to me. He knows this. I know this. It’s like my husband is enmeshed with his family in a bad way. But my sister ended up telling me, “You called out your husband?” They were feeling so bad for him, because he just sat there and didn’t say anything. He looked so embarrassed. I ended up asking my husband, “Were you embarrassed?” He’s like, “What? No.” He ended up actually writing them all a email. I mean, he sent it before he even told me he was going to do it. He basically was like, “No, I have ruined her life. I’ve done this, I’ve done this, I’ve done this. She’s still allowed to tell whoever she wants.” It was very validating, but it’s still frustrating, because even though he sent that email, I guarantee most people would still be like, “Yeah, but she must be so controlling. Maybe she forced him to write that email?” Or, “Oh, poor, poor man.” It’s frustrating. Go To A BTR Group Session To Process Hurtful Comments Anne: In our faith, it seems like a lot of the men might go in and confess to their clergy or something, and instead of getting some type of, “Whoa, this is serious. You are not following Jesus at all. Maybe we need to protect people from you because your behavior is pretty atrocious.” Instead of saying that a lot of times they’ll tell these abusers, “Oh, you’re not really that bad. You’re great.” Kate: “Oh, you just need more church. Go to the temple. Here, we’ll give you a calling; this will help you.” Anne: “Volunteer more. ” Yeah, exactly. If you need to process your own trauma through thinking, “Okay, these are the things I could have said.” Talk to your friends. Talk to Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session clients in a group session. because When someone says something like that to you, it causes an injury. Sometimes it can be pretty extreme. Sometimes it can be minor. It depends on where you are in your trauma healing process. Like now when people say stuff to me, the injury to me is a lot less than it used to be. But, to validate people who are like, “Why do these little comments the nice, 80 year old woman at church tells me, or my neighbor hurt me so much?” Maybe to just validate women and say, “Of course, they’re going to hurt you. Of course, you’re going to need to process it.” You’re going to go through this time in your head where you think, “What could I have said back to this person that could have either educated them or put them in their place?” Strategies To Respond To Signs Of Emotional Manipulation Anne: You don’t want to put an 80 year old woman in her place, that’s just not nice. And if they really, truly don’t want to get it, then educating them isn’t going to work. So validate that we need to process it. Then, to consider that it’s not our job, and we don’t have to worry about educating other people or putting them in their place. Kate: I think it’s beneficial to come up with the witty comments, but not necessarily to say them, because it doesn’t ever really help. I love coming up with the funny comments, but it’s more fun to then tell it to friends afterwards. It’s more funny then because that way you’re not hurting other people. But you can still find some humor in it so it doesn’t feel so heavy. I know that in some circumstances it is best not to say much. Because they’re going to try to make you in the wrong no matter what. There are many circumstances where I prefer to be vulnerable, not necessarily for them, but for me. Even if it’s just as simple as, “Oh, that kind of hurt my feelings.” Or, “Well, he’s hurt me a lot. I’m still processing.” I like to be vulnerable. That’s empowering for me. It actually gets the better responses from people, where they’re not defensive. Anne: Rather than a snarky, sarcastic one. Kate: They’re still not going to always want to learn, but it might help them think twice. But again, that’s not the reason. The reason is because it empowers me to be honest. Anne: I think being honest is always a good idea. My concern is safety. Engaging In Conversations About Trauma Anne: Could you put yourself in a place where you could be harmed by that person? We might think, “Oh, I’m not safe to say this to someone.” If we say, “I’m super sad because my husband is abusive.” If they don’t like us, however they felt before is how they’re going to feel after. It’s not like suddenly they’re going to be like, wow, I like you now, or I don’t like you now. You’re not going to change someone who really liked you and cared about you to someone who doesn’t like you and cared about you. Kate: Yeah, it does. I also think when it comes to safety, a lot of times I find that safety within me. Yes, somebody might make me feel unsafe, but it doesn’t make me feel unsafe to the point where I’m not going to say, “Hey, that hurt my feelings.” I’m still safe enough to do that, because it’s more empowering for me later on. It’s hard to explain. It’s hard to put this in words. I have not come across a time where I have been honest and vulnerable, and it made me more unsafe. And I was like, I shouldn’t have done that. Because I always learned from it. This isn’t going to work for everybody. I’m not saying everybody should be like this, because there are some horrible people out there. Sometimes the best thing is to not say anything. Deciding If It’s Safe To Share Trauma Anne: I think I was like that more at the beginning when I discovered about my ex husband’s addiction. I’d see somebody at Costco and they’d be like, “How are you?” I’d be like, “Really bad, I just found out my husband lied to me for six years, and he’s using pornography, and it stinks. But it’s super good to see you. How are you doing?” After that, they’d be like, “uh?” So I would do this quite a bit in the beginning, and now I’m less like that. Number one, because I’m not living in my trauma as much anymore. If they asked me, how am I doing today? I’d be like, “Great, I’m doing great. I ate a vegetable.” You know, it’s not like the thing on my mind. So it would be easy for me to talk about something else. I think I’ve learned to be a little more guarded, because I thought shouting it to the world would bring safety. If everybody knew, how could he do it? I realized that did not keep me safe. So for that reason, I think about safety a little differently than I thought before. Kate: It doesn’t go over too well when you’re like, “You know what? My husband just lied to me, and so I’m a little upset. I just found out he’s a big fat liar.” Anne: It goes over super well in Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions, or with a close friend, like Kate, who understands it. When Experiencing Signs Of Emotional Manipulation, Balance Honesty & Safety Anne: So if you have a safe place to go, then yeah, share it there. Kate: I think you can still be honest in those circumstances without actually saying all of it. You could just say, “You know what? Eh, I’m so so. I’m alive. I’m okay.” You don’t have to be like, “I’m great.” Then be like, “I’m dying inside.” You can still find ways to be honest. Anne: Saying something like, “Things are really, really hard for me right now.” And if they say, “Oh, what’s wrong?” Be like, ” I can tell you want to help and you care about me by asking me, but talking about it’s not going to help. You know what would help? If you fix my sprinklers. Or, bring me a pizza. Kate: That one would be great. Anne: We’re just exploring this together and that’s what the podcast is for.
• What Happened When I Googled “Celebrate Recovery Near Me” 12.05.2026 32Min.

  If you’re typing “Celebrate Recovery near me” into Google because you’re desperate for help after discovering that your husband has been lying to you about his infidelity or his use of inappropriate material, you’re not alone. BEFORE GOING TO CELEBRATE RECOVERY NEAR ME, CONSIDER THIS: 1. Recovery Programs Only work If He’s Honest A recovery environment only works if your husband is completely honest about his behavior. Even in cases where he’s willing to attend a program, some women discover their husband takes “chips,” confesses slips, or shares breakthroughs in group without ever telling her. Not because he’s changing, but because he’s using the system to make it look like he’s changing. 2. celebrate recovery near me Can’t Fix Emotional Abuse When women search “Celebrate Recovery near me,” they often think the program will help heal their marriage by helping their husbands understand the root causes of their addiction and behaviors, especially if he seems willing to go meetings. But the root issue isn’t addiction, it’s entitlement, control, and dishonesty. Most recovery programs aren’t designed to assess or confront coercive control. So instead of getting safer, some women end up feeling more confused. Before you invest your hope in any program, you deserve to understand the full picture. To discover if your husband is emotionally abusive, take this free emotional abuse quiz. 3. Some Men Use Recovery or Language as a Shield Many women report that once their husband joined a recovery group like Celebrate Recovery near me, he just learned to speak the language of recovery without actually changing. Instead of becoming more honest, some men become more skilled at hiding, using the right words, sharing at the right times, and appearing accountable…while the underlying patterns stay the same. This isn’t necessarily the program’s fault. Recovery culture tends to take disclosures at face value. But for some men, it becomes a stage rather than a mirror. 4. If He Gets Praise in Group but You Get Hurt at Home, Pay Attention The applause of a group like Celebrate Recovery near me can unintentionally reward performance. Your lived experience matters more than his report. If his recovery looks great publicly, but privately you feel scared, confused, dismissed, or blamed, that’s a sign to step back and observe what’s happening. You don’t have to announce this to anyone 5. RECOVERY Programs Don’t Replace Betrayal Trauma Support A program like Celebrate Recovery near me often uses a model that focuses on his trauma from childhood or his triggers. They may encourage couples to build routines that reduce his stress or triggers, sometimes placing more responsibility on her to monitor or support his progress. These might be good tools for people who genuinely want to heal. But they don’t address lying, manipulation and entitlement. A woman in an emotionally abusive marriage needs support that centers her emotional safety, not his recovery timeline. 6. If You Feel Worse After the Program Starts, That Matters Many women assume feeling worse is a sign that they’re a part of “the problem,” or they need to be “more supportive.” When his patterns of behavior become a shared problem…something you’re both expected to manage…it often creates more emotional chaos for her. Her emotional safety needs to be addressed separately, not tied to how well he’s doing or how much effort he appears to be making. Feeling confused, blamed, responsible for his recovery, or pressured to forgive and move forward…is a sign something else is happening. 7. Your EMOTIONAL SAFETY COMES BEFORE HIS RECOVERY STORY If you’re searching “Celebrate Recovery near me” to save your marriage, here’s the most important thing: his recovery is not the foundation of your emotional safety. Your clarity is. It’s important to have your own support community in place that is educated in the dynamics of emotional and psychological abuse and can help you decide what you need for emotional safety. If you need support in addressing what’s really happening, and whether a recovery program can help, you can start with my Clarity After Betrayal or BTR Group Sessions. They’re designed to give you immediate clarity. Transcript: What Happened When I Googled “Celebrate Recovery Near Me” Anne: I’ve talked to hundreds of women who have typed things like “Celebrate Recovery near me”, or “addiction recovery program” into Google. Especially when their husband said he was an addict and he is willing to go to a program. So if he’s willing and goes to this program, it’s totally normal for a woman to think that things are gonna get better. But over the years, I’ve interviewed countless women who tell me things actually got worse. And I’m interviewing one of those women today. We’re gonna call her. Nancy. Here’s part of her story. Nancy: His coworker called me. She told me she was out with some friends. And he flirted with her and tried to pick her up. We were Going to Celebrate Recovery. He supposedly had been sober for months. Anne: We’re gonna get to her whole story, but before we do, I wanna stress that it’s important to understand that a manipulative man can use anything, a recovery program, therapy, even meeting with clergy to manipulate a woman further, and that causes a lot more harm and trauma. So before you start searching for a recovery program for your husband, it is important to consider what his recovery would be for and how abusers manipulate their victims. Most of the time, the therapist will say something like childhood wounds or addiction recovery. When really what you’re actually experiencing is emotional and psychological abuse. And I’ve even interviewed women who have tried to find an abuse program for their husband, and they still tell me the same things. So as you listen to Nancy’s story, I think it will help put into perspective what’s really going on and what steps you wanna take next. When I met him I thought he was a good guy Anne: That’s why I created the Living Free Workshop. It helps women know what’s going on, if he’s really abusive or not. Some women find out he’s not. And then what steps to take to create emotional safety in your life. It’s much faster to figure that out first, before spending tons of time and money in therapy or a recovery or Celebrate Recovery near me program. Living Free total run time is about two hours and 50 minutes, which is much shorter than three or four years to find out it’s not working. So Nancy, thank you so much for sharing your story today. Welcome, can you tell us how you met? Nancy: When I met him, he went to church. He served on the worship team, and he could talk like a preacher. So I thought he was a good guy. It was confusing, because we were play wrestling, and I wouldn’t have remembered this except I had written in a journal and I read it after everything fell apart. He held me down and said some things like, did you think you were stronger than me? Did you think I would let you go? It really scared me. I was very close to breaking up with him, but he actually cried and apologized. So I thought, he’s sorry. It’s not gonna happen again, and that sort of thing never happened again. He realized he had to be more subtle. He did tell me about his past sexual history. Mirroring my desire to serve missions Nancy: He was in the Navy and with several prostitutes. And he was honest, it felt like to me at the time. That he struggled with porn. I thought after we married, that wouldn’t be an issue. And honestly, I don’t know that anyone would’ve told me anything different. I wanted to serve in medical missions. He didn’t seem interested in this, so I prayed and left the relationship in God’s hands. I told him about how I prayed. And the next time we got together, he said, “He had been thinking and praying, and he really felt God moving his heart to missions. That everyone always thought he should be a missionary. It really blew me away, because I thought God had answered my prayer really fast. He knew that he was not only lying to me, he was also lying about God, and he chose it. Which makes him a really evil person. In pre-marital counseling, I was clear that I didn’t see myself as a housewife. I wanted things to be equal, and I didn’t plan to stop working. He acted like he was on the same page and that he was fine with this. So we married. Things were not good. In less than a year, he turned me down for sexual intimacy. Which was surprising and incredibly hurtful. Especially when I realized he was looking at porn. We went to see the movie Fireproof, and afterwards he admitted he was taking off his ring to flirt with people. I was trying to be very understanding, but I did feel hurt, and he got angry at me. He said this was the thanks he gets for staying away from porn for a couple weeks, which is not funny, but I’m laughing at the audacity. He Pushed Me to Quit Working While Avoiding Any Real Recovery or Celebrate Recovery Near Me Programs Nancy: I think I blocked a lot of it out, because somehow things were good enough back and forth between nice, the Christian thing, and when he would be not so nice. I didn’t recognize abuse. The only thing I could put my finger on was the sexual things. We never could solve how things were to be run. And now that we had children, he could step away and I would be forced to do more house duties, cooking, cleaning, et cetera. Because someone had to do all the things for the children. I would tell him what we had agreed before marriage, and he said, “Yeah, but I thought you would change after we had kids.” Anne: I said the same thing. I said, I’m not gonna cook. And he was like, no problem. Then later told me, I thought you would change. And I’m like, I was so clear. Nancy: Exactly, we’re both honest and open. It’s like, that doesn’t mean I have to change, just ’cause you thought I would change. Well, it did because we had children now that needed to be taken care of. Anne: Right. Nancy: The same thing I said, I didn’t wanna stop working.” And he would constantly try to get me to stop working. I was only working part-time. He wanted me to not have an escape route. We separated, but I was so exhausted and overwhelmed with a baby, 2-year-old, and a 5-year-old. We got back together pretty quickly. Discovering he was flirting with coworker Nancy: A year later, we separated again and went to couples counseling, ’cause I still had not seen how that was harmful. I was really hopeful, which seems funny after just like a week or two of separation. But his coworker called me and told me she had been out with some friends, and he was flirting with her and trying to pick her up. I thought this would be his rock bottom, because he’s almost lost his family. Anyway, we got back together and things were up and down. I was dealing with a lot of anger and depression, social anxiety. At the time, I thought I needed counseling to deal with my issues. We were going to Celebrate Recovery near me. His stated problems in Celebrate Recovery were sex addiction and anger. It’s so crazy knowing that, how could everybody there not believe anything I was saying? He supposedly had been sober for months because of all the addiction model stuff. We agreed that he would tell me if he ever had a slip within a certain amount of time. So at Celebrate Recovery, he went forward for a one-day chip, and that really shocked me because he wasn’t ever gonna tell me. When we agreed that he would. After that we had sex that was definitely, obviously coercive. I don’t think I had the words at the time, but I definitely felt that way because we had an agreement and he didn’t follow it. That was the last time we ever were together. He said he would throw me a 30th birthday party Nancy: I took a step back, and I was observing him because I felt like we were at the best place, and I’m actually an okay person. That means there’s nothing I’ve done wrong, literally. And there’s nothing I can do to change this. It just became increasingly clear to me. So I started looking for more information and came across BTR, but I didn’t listen to the episodes because I saw the word abuse. And thought that doesn’t apply to me. And I found a couple other podcasts. They didn’t fully explain everything, and then a really bad incident happened when I turned 30, a big birthday. Anne: They always do it on birthdays and holidays. Nancy: I know, I had always thrown him birthday parties. He’s an extrovert and that was something that he enjoyed and I didn’t mind, he didn’t throw me anything because I’m more of an introvert. So when I was going to turn 30, I told him that I’d like a birthday party and would like him to throw it for me. I said if he didn’t want to, let me know. ‘Cause it was important enough to me that I would throw it for myself. He said he would throw me the birthday party. But when I wasn’t seeing any preparations, I checked in with him. And the motions he made came across like he was planning a surprise birthday party. Anne: Like, let’s not talk about it. Or you might ruin your surprise. Nancy: Exactly, I had said, “I will throw it for myself.” I repeated that again, that time. He knew. He Claimed He ‘Forgot’ My Birthday While Pretending Recovery Through SAA and Celebrate Recovery Near Me Groups Nancy: So my birthday comes up. I expect a surprise party around any corner. I come to the end of the day and nothing happened, nothing. And his excuse was forgetfulness. Anne: I never gave you the impression I was gonna throw you a party. Nancy: Yeah, It was always that gaslighting and blame shifting. I feel like I dissociated a little bit around that time. ‘Cause it was really hurtful, because I would have thrown it for myself. Anne: And he knew that and he gave you the impression that he was throwing you a party on purpose to ensure that you didn’t have a party. Nancy: Exactly, I actually believed him that it was on accident, but that was just as hurtful. Now, I believe it was fully on purpose. At the time I was going to COSA and he was going to an SAA group. Anne: When she says COSA or SAA, she’s talking about 12-Step recovery for pornography addicts or sexual addicts. There are other programs like Celebrate Recovery near me. And the COSA is a co sex addict’s 12-Step for a wife of an addict, where she basically does the same program he does and tries to fix her character defects. Nancy: Yeah, I’d been talking about giving him another chance to throw me a party, and they said if he already didn’t do it, you should not do that. So I ended up throwing myself a party. After that 30th birthday, I would get down around my birthday every year. I ended up telling him that, not in a way to blame him, because like I said, I didn’t think he had done it on purpose. I just thought I should let him know I wasn’t myself. Recognizing Gaslighting in real time Nancy: And it was the first time I recognized what he was doing in the moment, he started to say. “That had not happened. That didn’t sound like something he would’ve done, that my memory must be a little off.” So many different ways he was trying to convince me that it hadn’t happened, and he couldn’t convince me because I knew it had happened. So he switched tactics and said that maybe he should get counseling for being abused. Anne: He’s claiming that you’re abusing him. Nancy: Exactly, I was so confused. I asked him, “Abuse, what are you talking about? Am I being abusive right now?” And he goes, “No, the abuse I’ve had to endure for the last how many years.” And then I realized oh, that was gaslighting. That’s blame shifting, and I ended up leaving the room and cried on my own. It shook me up that he could take something very vulnerable and turn it on me like that. I was talking about that incident and how he was saying I was abusive and I heard myself saying, “It was surprising he would call me abusive when he’s been so much worse.” And that was the first time I thought maybe he is abusive, and that reminded me about BTR. I thought, let me listen to that, ’cause maybe I can get some insight. That brought me back to listening to the BTR podcast. And I vividly remember I was binging all these episodes, hearing women’s stories. It felt like my life. And it just blew my mind to realize I’ve been abused this whole time. Anne: I’m so sorry. You were experiencing Betrayal Trauma and were not aware that recovery or Celebrate Recovery near me programs wouldn’t help you. Addict model says he’s struggling, he’s not in control Nancy: It made sense. It felt like everything clicked into place. Everything else I was told didn’t make sense. I always talked about stuff. I was always looking for answers. And I never felt like I was codependent or that I needed codependents anonymous. None of that stuff seemed to fit. In fact, the advice I was given, “Don’t pay attention to what he’s doing. Only work on yourself.” While they’re also saying, “Don’t be codependent, ignore what he’s doing,” which just doesn’t work. The addict model, like he’s struggling, he’s trying, he’s not in control. I mean, that’s like step one. You’re powerless to control your behavior. He accepted the addiction model early on, and we were in and out of groups the whole time. But I don’t believe now that he’s an addict, and I don’t think he even thinks he’s an addict. It’s a great excuse to keep doing what you’re doing. Because there’s no accountability, and everyone applauds your efforts. Even if you’re not reaching the goal, you actually have a choice. He would say to me that he could not promise that he would never do any of the sexual stuff again. So it was like basically just saying, I’m gonna be doing this my whole life. Anne: My ex wouldn’t promise either. He said if I promised, “I wouldn’t be on my toes. Like I don’t want to think I couldn’t do that, because then maybe I would be in danger of doing it.” Which doesn’t even make sense. Like I can legit say, I will never have an affair. finding BTR helped me wrap my head around the abuse, Celebrate Recovery near me didn’t Nancy: Right, yeah. I found BTR. And the abuse model is they have a choice, and they’re choosing to be harmful and abusive. All these years he had been a liar. I stepped back and observed behavior for me to fully wrap my head around it. I believe he feels entitled to do what he wants. He doesn’t see people as people. Or maybe it’s just women as women. Objectification is a huge thing. I don’t think he ever saw me as an equal partner or a person. And I don’t believe he ever loved me. I was a desirable object he acquired, and that was it. When I started listening to BTR, it helped me understand abuse and the subtleties of it. Because before, I had only been thinking physical abuse or yelling insults, which my ex did not do. Listening to the stories helped me see how this plays out in marriage, even in a Christian marriage. It was helpful to see the ways men could twist faith things, because many of these men and my ex are very manipulative. Like it has to slowly play out over time to see what they’re doing. And a lot of it goes back to intent, and it’s hard to see intent. It was hard for me to imagine my husband is lying to me. So that was a shift too, to start looking at actions instead of words. BTR gave me a lot of insight into what I was living through and what was helpful, especially getting into the BTR groups. Celebrate Recovery near me didn’t do that. It helps build you up so that you can go through the hard stuff. We were going to counseling around the time I started going to BTR group. Going to couple counseling Nancy: Because of BTR, I had the words for it. I was able to express better what was happening. The counselor didn’t help my situation, of course. Individual counseling and couple counseling are unhelpful, because an abuser’s goal, my ex’s goal, was not to get better. His goal is to get whatever he wants. He’ll say whatever he needs to say to get what he needs from the counselor. We’ve gone to quite a few couple counselors. We would go into a new counselor, and he would bring up a new issue. He had never told me about me. Anne: Suddenly you’re a kleptomaniac or something. Nancy: Yeah, things that he thought I did that were hurtful to him, that I had never heard of before. But I felt so bad that I was hurting him without knowing it. What a callous person I am. Anne: Not knowing he was bearing false witness and that he literally made it up. Nancy: Yeah, completely distracted from why we went to counseling in the first place is sexual issues. Like I would have to be a safe person so he could be honest with me. Because I’m an actual caring person, I would feel like this was an actual issue that I needed to fix. And that is the part about the psychological abuse that is hard to describe. Because a lot of it could sound valid, and I thought these things were valid. But later realizing they were lies. They were lies, because he would’ve said them before. Anne: Exactly. creepy experience with new counselor Nancy: We did an in-home separation, At first. His abuse escalated the freer that I was getting. I never completely stopped working. I got a job and started after the in-home separation. He actually shut off the internet. Luckily, I prepared ahead of time. I had my own phone plan with the hotspot, So I could just switch over and just didn’t even engage with him. It has been a process of combing through my life, and I have wondered that how many lies I won’t even know about or remember. Because, I believed him and he was so good at lying. One of the new things he said was I wasn’t being vocal enough in bed. It felt so humiliating for him to say that to the new counselor. When he had never said that before. This male counselor wanted us to do an exercise right then on the sofa in front of him. He wanted my ex to touch like my foot or my leg, and then slowly move closer to my private areas. And as he moved closer. I was supposed to make more and more noise. Anne: No. Nancy: Isn’t that crazy? Anne: That’s so creepy. Nancy: I did feel incredibly creeped out, and I refused to do it. Anne: Good for you. He said there would be no equality in our marriage – Celebrate Recovery near me didn’t help with that Nancy: I wish I had just walked out, But after we left, I said, “I will never go back to that counselor again.” And we never did. I said, “What I would need to continue in the marriage was for him to be seeing his own personal counselor, to have a full disclosure with a lie detector test.” Which he said no to. And I know now it wouldn’t have been helpful. Just like Celebrate Recovery near me wasn’t helpful. Anne: I know, thank goodness. Nancy: Right. Anne: Mine never did that either. And I think I would’ve just been in the abuse for so much longer had he said yes. Nancy: Right, and then the second thing I said is that, “I wanted equality in our marriage.” And he said no. Anne: He said no, he didn’t want equality? Nancy: Correct. Anne: Wow. Nancy: So I was like, then literally that’s the end of it. And I was going to BTR group. I remember one of the coaches said to me, “It was a blessing that he actually had been honest.” At the time, I didn’t understand, now I do. And I’m so glad I asked those questions. I don’t know why he was honest. There are two possibilities. He didn’t think I would leave, because I hadn’t yet. We’d been married for almost 14 years, and he was only saying what was already true. You don’t need to be perfect to be loved Nancy: I just didn’t realize it was true. Or maybe he did want me to leave. I had some conversations with his mom. Because I found BTR, and surprisingly, she said it made her realize she was in an abusive relationship with my ex’s dad. However, she still felt like I should stay. Because she felt like the Lord had taught her so much and she had grown through all these trials. I have sympathy for her, but it’s so wrong. All of a sudden it just became very clear to me that if I stayed for the kids, it was actually putting them more at risk. And honestly, that conversation solidified that I had to leave for the kids. If you’re not sure yet if your partner is abusive, Just listen to some BTR stories and see what jumps out at you. You are a worthy human being that does not have to be perfect to be loved and treated with respect. Reconciliation is not necessary for forgiveness, and you don’t have to forgive anyone. It’s more of a process that can happen on its own time, and no one should force it. Pay much closer attention to someone’s actions over time than the words they say. And it’s never too late to make different choices when you learn or understand new information. I feel like having to make a choice that is wildly unpopular with people around you. Church, that I had to learn in a new way. Maybe for the first time, to not let what people thought about me affect the decisions that I make that part has been really hard because a church we were going to was not supportive at first. Call from somebody in Celebrate Recovery near me group Nancy: Some of them seemed supportive, and even the ones I thought were supportive, in the end weren’t. I actually got a phone call from somebody in my Celebrate Recovery near me group. She called me up to ask me if I was seeing a counselor. Because I still seemed angry. I was speechless, of course I’m angry. Anne: Yeah Nancy: I didn’t even know how to respond to her. I just told her yes, I’m in BTR group and got off the phone. There’s nothing wrong with being angry about the situation. I feel like church tells women they shouldn’t be angry. But Jesus was angry. There’s nothing wrong with being angry. Anne: Yeah, I feel like if you’re not angry, something’s wrong. Nancy: Right. Anne: I mean, nothing is wrong with you. You might be numb, you might be sad. I went through periods where I wasn’t super angry. I was just really depressed, but on the whole oppressed, abused, exploited people, their anger is from God to help liberate themselves from the oppression. But of course, the abuser does not want you to liberate yourself. He said flat out he didn’t want you to be equal. That is infuriating. Nancy: And now he wanted 50/50 custody. It was very upsetting, because my ex had been very non-helpful around the house and with the kids. It was hard to think that he would want 50/50. Anne: But of course he did. Nancy: I didn’t see that coming, and I wish I had been more prepared and could have been more strategic. Listening to him lie in the courtroom Nancy: I could not wrap my mind around that at the time. I had seen more and more abuse as my eyes were open. So I couldn’t wrap my mind around 50/50 custody. I was under the delusion that justice was in the court system. I found out, even though I know he lies, it was a big shock to listen to him lying in the Courtroom. It’s hard to witness. It’s something I wish I had processed before, because I’m sure that was pointed out to me. But I couldn’t process that as a reality back then. The Living Free Workshop was so helpful. And going to group and getting help constantly. The Living Free Workshop is so different than anything you’ve ever been taught. I don’t know how I would’ve made it through this, honestly. That was another thing that was really helpful. There were some scripts in Living Free to get him on Our Family Wizard, and he actually got on it easily. I was surprised. I didn’t think he would get on as easily as he did, and just not responding in any other way. Anne: That’s the thing, they’re desperate to talk to you. With the workshop, everybody says, how am I gonna make him go on OFW? And if you do the script and stick to it and do not deviate. Legit, don’t deviate. Once you’re on Our Family Wizard, literally block him on your phone, so he has no other way of contacting you. He is desperate to get your attention and your belief, like Living Free says, yeah, they’re so transactional. And if you respond through Our Family Wizard, he will find a way to do it. he performs for others in groups like Celebrate Recovery near me and in court Anne: They’re like, well, this is what I gotta do to talk to her, because I’m blocked otherwise. They will move. It might take a month. I’ve had it take the longest six weeks with one woman that I was working with. Every single time he texted, she said, “Hey, I’ve responded on Our Family Wizard.” Nancy: Right. It felt overwhelming, because he kept sending me long, manipulative messages, but I responded on Our Family Wizard. It only took me once for him to switch. Being on OFW was better. Oh, one of the books BTR recommends, The Woman They Could Not Silence. I read it and that was awesome. It helped open up my mind to spiritual abuse. It’s been inspiring to me this whole time. What she went through being separated from her children. That book has been really inspiring. The thought of leaving them with him, terrifying to me. We went through two rounds of court. He would make it sound like I was controlling and not letting him do things. Like why wouldn’t I let him take the kids to half of the doctor’s appointments when he never came to a pregnancy appointment? And same with field trips. He’ll go on field trips now, and I feel like it’s just to keep me from going. It. He never wanted to before. Anne: If he was actually a good dad, he would’ve been doing it before, but since he’s only doing it now, he is just performing. Nancy: Yes, it’s a performance because he’s getting something out of it from other people, like in in celebrate recovery near me, and it’s punishment for me because he knows how much I like being there for the kids. Reluctance to support anything he can’t control Nancy: When we married, he didn’t want us to do extracurricular activities. He didn’t even want free after school activities, much less anything you would have to pay for. He was only okay with youth group attached to his job, not the free after school activities. But since we’ve been divorced, he has them interested in hockey, which is one of the most expensive and time consuming sports there is. It’s very strange from my entire experience with him. He never talked about hockey, and he never wanted them involved. At the same time, he is not wanting to pay half of necessary expenses, like medical or orchestra uniforms. For a long time, I was not asking for half of necessary expenses. Because I didn’t wanna have to deal with him because he makes it such a struggle. Anne: My ex is exactly like that, exactly. When my book comes out, I’m anxious for you to read it, because it was all about control. Like, if I’m paying you anything or if I’m involved in any way, I have to control it. Nancy: Yeah, like my youngest wanted to do karate. His dad would not participate even when I offered to pay the whole thing. Other son was invited to concert band, and his dad said no. Anne: Think about the power trip that gives him that he’s able to manipulate them away from their natural interests. And maybe hockey is something that he wants to do. Like he thinks karate’s dumb, but he thinks hockey’s interesting. Draining my bank account and controlling my time Nancy: It is a huge expense that is very draining. When he won’t even pay half of an AP test. Anne: And that might be part of it. He’s, let’s pick the most expensive thing to drain her bank account. Nancy: Yeah, it was a double bind to drain my bank account and control my time. And at the same time, if I have to back out of it. He’ll say, sorry, kids, Mom won’t let us go to hockey. Anne: He’s calculating ways to set you up to be the bad guy. Nancy: Yes, he is an expert at setting up situations, so my bank account is being drained, and I cover a hundred percent of their insurance. Anne: With a lot of these post-separation abuse situations. They get the benefits, but they don’t have any of the responsibilities, and they can use it against you, but it never works for you. They can bend the rules in order to benefit them, but you can’t bend the rules. Nancy: In the Living Free Workshop. It was helpful to see how to deal with narcissistic abuse in marriage and how it plays out in separation, to find a way out of it. There was one thing you said, and this is when you’re moving away from his harm. You said, “If he escalates, remember that protecting yourself from the harm is not the cause of the harm. Just like evacuating a building was not the cause of the exploding gas lines.” He still wants to get together Nancy: That really hit me. One of the things that keeps haunting me is did I do the right thing? He still tries to get together personally with me. It constantly comes up that he wants to get together for coffee, or would I go to counseling with him, co-parenting counseling. I mostly ignore it at this point because he’s asked so many times. I don’t even answer him. Then if something goes wrong with the money situations or if there’s a point of disagreement, he will say, if you would’ve only met with me like I’ve asked, then this would’ve already been stopped. Anne: Yeah, we could’ve worked it out somehow, no. He would still lie. Nancy: It’s a trap. There’s that little 2% of me left that feels like, well, maybe I should meet with him, but no, it’s a trap. Anne: Yeah, no. Nancy: Because he never intends to do a nice thing. He just wants to get me in front of him again. I don’t think any good would come of it. Anne: A hundred percent, no. It might seem good, ’cause once you get there, it might seem good. He might like to turn on the manipulative lies to make you feel like he cares. I think one of the most abusive things people can say is, I love you or that I care. So manipulating you in that way is actually dangerous, and that’s probably what would happen. Nancy: I don’t think I could keep a straight face. It would skive me out so bad to be around him and hear stuff like that. Everything he says is the opposite of the truth Anne: Well, it’s just further evidence of his controlling nature, because he desperately wants to hang on to control. And so he’s increasing his lies because it’s getting away from him. That’s definitely a sign that he’s been lying the whole time. Nancy: I completely agree. I know that this is better for them in the long run, but in the short run, that sentence helps me right now. That was probably one of the hardest things for me to come to terms with, is that he never loved me. He doesn’t love the children. None of it’s real. It’s all lies, and he still does it. It’s mind-boggling. Everything he says is the opposite of what the truth is. He continues lying as he did in programs like Celebrate Recovery near me. As we were moving through the separation process, the boys did not want to leave and crying and like holding onto the car seats. It was horrible. I knew if I said anything to him, he wouldn’t care. Any altercation would be scary for the kids. So I started getting third party exchange people through a new church. I actually found a church with a woman pastor, which is quite lovely. The new church was helpful and supportive, and there were several people that would help me with exchanges. And things changed, like taking the Living Free Workshop, and suddenly I felt a lot stronger. I had a new understanding and confidence, so I stopped doing the third party exchanges. He actually met with the principal to try to get the principal to agree with him that I’m not allowed to go into the school on his parenting weeks. like in celebrate recovery near me, A clear example of him lying, controlling and abusing Nancy: Which isn’t true. You’re allowed to visit your kid in the school. Anne: Absolutely. Nancy: Unless there’s a restraining order, which there’s not. We have shared custody, but he made it sound like the principal agreed with him. I didn’t think it was the truth, but it scared me at the time. And we were about to have a party, and I signed up to bring food, so I worried I would be kicked out. But the principal didn’t say anything. Isn’t that a clear example of parental alienation? Anne: It’s a clear way of him undermining your relationship with your kids, lying, controlling, and abusing you. This is how he’s literally abusing you and your children. Nancy: Everybody heard about this incident, and it didn’t matter. He made it sound like he had just been concerned for the children’s wellbeing. Anne: Yeah, no. Nancy: My being around them upset them. Anne: Lies. That’s the issue they lie in programs like Celebrate Recovery near me and fool the leaders. Nancy: It’s lies at times it is possible that they might be upset, but it’s not because they’re scared of me. It’s more that they’re sad about the situation. My one son, he told me, it makes him sad to see me when he knows he has to go back to his dad’s. My daughter had a phone before we separated, but he wouldn’t allow communication between the boys and me ever. Once, my son called me using his sister’s phone. He was crying. I was only on the phone for about two or three minutes, and then the phone cut off. And they told me when they came back that he had been mad at them for calling me. Even if there is a court order they will find away around it Nancy: He wouldn’t allow them to have a watch phones either. That’s one of the reasons we went back to court. Anne: That’s the problem with court. You think if we get it in writing, then he’ll do it, but it doesn’t matter. He is not gonna do it no matter what. Nancy: This is what I have learned. I don’t ever wanna go back to court again, because it doesn’t help. No matter what you do, they’ll find a new way to cause harm. So there’s no point in any kind of new order. ‘Cause then they’ll find a new way around it. Anne: Exactly. Nancy: I’m still glad I went, because before I had been worried I had to do everything exactly perfectly or something would go wrong. And then I realized he’s doing wrong things on purpose. He just says stuff to get what he wants and nobody cares. So that has relieved a lot of fear. Anne: What would you share with listeners about what you’ve learned so far about finding help, maybe from Celebrate Recovery near me or elsewhere? Nancy: You know, hearing other people’s stories have meant so much to me, Living Free and the BTR coaches set me up for success. They told me to transfer half of our money to a separate bank account before I even told him that I might be leaving. That was incredibly helpful because I’m not sure if it would’ve been easy for me to get the money. I never used the word abuse or narcissism to him. That played out well, because he would’ve twisted it against me. Anne: A hundred percent. Kids need to know what a safe place feels like Nancy: Getting on the parenting app, super helpful, third parties for switches. Finding people to help with the things you need is just a lifesaver. I do feel like it will be better for the kids in the future, because they can be in a peaceful setting that’s not manipulative. So when they’re making decisions. About how they want to live and their future partners, that they know what it feels like to be in a safe place and being able to have discussions with them about men’s and women’s roles. Anne: Nancy, thank you so much for sharing your story today. And helping others who are searching, to find something truly helpful. Nancy: Thank you.
• Betrayal Trauma In Marriage, When It’s Not Getting Better 05.05.2026 26Min.

  I hear this over and over again: betrayal trauma in marriage doesn’t just come from discovering a husband’s lies. For many women, it deepens when they reach out for help, and aren’t believed, supported, or protected. Most women respond to betrayal the way they’ve been taught to respond. They… seek counseling. ask spiritual leaders for guidance. work on themselves. try to explain their pain more clearly, more gently, more compassionately. And instead of finding relief, they find silence. Or minimization. Or subtle pressure to endure. For so many women, the most painful betrayal isn’t only what happens at home, it’s what happens when they finally ask for help and realize there’s nowhere safe to land. Before you spend one more day confused, you need a clear, simple framework for understanding what’s happening. That’s why I pulled together Clarity After Betrayal. It’s the starting place women told me they desperately needed before they wasted years trying to make sense of mixed messages, gaslighting, and chaos. When Years of Betrayal Trauma in Marriage Takes a Toll Nikki’s husband betrayed her for years: infidelity, lies, constant emotional attacks. He convinced her she was “too sensitive” and “too needy,” when the real issue was his pattern of betrayal. If you’re thinking his behaviors might amount to emotional abuse here’s some examples of emotional abuse to check out. Transcript: Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Anne: Today we have a member of our community, we’re going to call her Nikki. She’s from Australia. Welcome Nikki. So, tell me your story. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first? Nikki: Not at all. Goodness me, no. I was 15, just had my 16th birthday when I met my husband. I was in the UK. And we’ve been together ever since. I was six months pregnant with our first child. And he bought this little black bag home. And I hadn’t seen it before. We weren’t living together at the time. And he brought it back into my little flat, and being curious, opened it, and there was all this horrible material in there. And said to him, this is not what I want as part of my life. I knew this wasn’t what I wanted, and he said, “Oh, I’ll get rid of it, I’ll get rid of it.” And there were other bits in this bag, which just baffled me. I was just horrified, and the next day I went into labor because I was just that traumatized, I guess. So from that point, it kind of never stopped. I would continually find magazines under the couch. I mean, we tried getting help before we’d gone to several pastors who were basically just more about the codependent model. But I’d done nothing except to protect myself from betrayal trauma in marriage. Anne: And try to protect your marriage, right? It creates betrayal trauma from infidelity, there are so many things a cheating husband says that harm. Nikki: Yeah, and I didn’t want our children to spend time with me and then time with him, because he’d gone down the rabbit hole. I didn’t want there to be a point where he was left with them alone. Life in Australia, Lack of Support & Self-Education Anne: Where do you live in Australia? Nikki: I live in Melbourne, Victoria, but I’m from Tasmania. Anne: Okay, how do you feel like the support is there? Nikki: None, I have struggled to find anybody in this field that can help. So no, I never recognized the abuse, not until I started educating myself. And then it was when I came across the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Facebook page that I knew that what he was doing was abuse, and I was experiencing betrayal trauma in my marriage. Anne: Before you found BTR, when you were trying to get help, what types of things did you do to try and like, improve? Nikki: Yep, I thought if I looked better, if I tried harder, if I loved him more, you know, I learned the love languages. I was always trying to improve myself, and even going to counseling to try and improve something. Yeah, I took it on board, but I think that’s much more to do with how I was raised to be a better wife. And then he wouldn’t do this thing. Anne: There is so much you don’t know, there are so many powerful truths about emotional abuse. So you knew about the watching stuff online. Did you recognize the other types of abusive behaviors, like lying, manipulation, and gaslighting as betrayal trauma in marriage? Could you identify those back in the day? Or did you not realize all that was going on too? Nikki: I knew there was lying and manipulation. Because that kind of goes hand in hand with sneaky behavior, doesn’t it? Yeah, it wasn’t until the internet came about and you could Google this kind of stuff that I became aware of it. It wasn’t until much later in our marriage. Realizing Common Advice Doesn’t Work With Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Anne: So when did you realize that common marriage advice, look good, love, serve, forgive, make sure dinner’s on the table, make sure the house is clean, you know, that sort of thing? People say marriage is hard work, and unless it’s abusive it’s just not true. And when did you realize that common marriage advice was not working and that the betrayal trauma in your marriage was not improving? Nikki: Probably about 20 years ago. Anne: And how long have you been married? Nikki: We’ve been married about 27 years. Anne: Okay, so seven years in, you realize, wait a minute, this isn’t working. What helped you realize that? Nikki: I think it was shortly after we’d had intercourse, and I walked in and found him looking at stuff. I actually thought he deliberately tried to hurt me. When Betrayal Trauma in Marriage is Getting Worse Anne: And when you thought that, he deliberately attempts to hurt me, you also didn’t think abuse way back then. Nikki: No, not at all. It’s only the abuse part has been, I think, the last six years that I’ve seen his actions as being abusive. Anne: Why do you think it takes so long for victims of emotional and psychological abuse and this type of coercion (probably because no one knows: what is victim blaming) to understand the reality of their situation. Nikki: Trauma, I think our brain sits in trauma because the person you most trust, the person you think will never hurt you, is doing it. And I think it’s protection. I mean, I can’t speak for everyone, I can only speak for me. Because whatever your circumstance is, there’s a part of you that needs to protect your own mind and yourself from the betrayal trauma in marriage. Your brain or your body is just not ready to realize that this is what it is. Crisis Point & Finding Betrayal Trauma Recovery Anne: There’s also this education factor. You don’t have an abuse class in high school. Along with math and English, right? So many people think they understand abuse because they’ve seen a TV show where a guy beats up his wife, and they’re like, that’s what abuse is. And they don’t recognize all the different covert ways in a marriage that you can be abused and end up with betrayal trauma. Nikki: I think it’s the gaslighting as well. Because it’s been so long in my marriage. It’s like, oh, no, I must have misunderstood what he said. Oh, no, he’s right. I’ve got that wrong. Oh, okay. I thought you meant this, but you actually meant this way. Oh, all right. So you’re second guessing yourself all the time. Anne: What were you looking for online when you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery on Facebook? Nikki: I hit a crisis point. The crisis point brought me to the fact that I was trying to seek some kind of support basically anywhere, because here in Australia it’s like, oh you’ll be right mate. So whoever you spoke to thought you were being prissy. It just wasn’t cutting it. I just felt so deeply ashamed and hurt that I needed some kind of support and wasn’t getting it in the real world. So when I came across the group, it changed the way I view my whole life. Anne: So you started attending the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group sessions, can you tell us about your experience? Knowledge Is Power With Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Nikki: Knowing that I’m not alone. Because I’ve always taught our children that knowledge is power. Once you have power, you can change the way you operate, change the way you do things. So for me, that’s been the greatest thing, being informed. And then being able to research that and having the facts behind it. Which has been a great thing. Anne: Being educated about betrayal trauma in marriage brings so much confidence. It really helps you recover from betrayal. Because the gaslighting, you’re like, Is this me? Is this real? What’s going on? And if you don’t have words for it, you can never fully define it to someone else. And so, they’ll give you typical things, like, Well, you just must be stressed. Or maybe, don’t worry, it’ll get better. Things like that. Because you’re not able to say what’s happening with betrayal trauma in marriage. So getting educated, you can actually talk about it. Having words to describe it immediately helps people understand what’s happening. It also helps victims understand what is going on. Because there’s so much confusion. Nikki: Yeah, for me, what I’m experiencing now, because I’ve been in this for a long time. And there’s been a lot of game playing. on his behalf, and I’ve just realized my body is actually physically, it’s started coming out. I’ve developed really bad tinnitus, which is a physical representation of what’s going on in the outside world. Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Has An Impact on Physical & Mental Health Nikki: And also, I find my brain is not working the same. As I’ve got older. And I think that’s because of the trauma that’s gone on throughout our whole marriage and childhood. My brain’s got to the point where it’s like, I don’t want to work anymore. I don’t want to hold this memory, or it just phases out or disassociates, which I know is part of the trauma. But it’s frustrating. Anne: I can imagine. How old are you now? Nikki: I’m 47. We have five children. They’re all adults now. Thank you, God, they survived. They’re pretty good people, but we’ve got four boys, one girl. And my children growing up, they’d ask him a question, and he wouldn’t respond. They’d always be, Oh, we’re going to go to the sensible parent. Meaning that we’re gonna go see mum. Anne: He wouldn’t respond because he was distracted or he just couldn’t focus? Nikki: I don’t know if he didn’t know the answer. So he didn’t want to look silly, so he’d muck about. Because I think his use of online material stunted his intellectual growth. He must have been about 14, I think. And I always developed critical thinking in our children. You know, I told them to think about the wheres, whys, and what fors of any situation. And because he didn’t develop that skill, the children kind of overtook him in their thinking and emotional development. He just really frustrated them. Anne: That makes sense. In terms of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, the education and support you’ve received helped you make different choices about how you interact with him. Taking My Power Back With Betrayal Trauma Recovery Nikki: I no longer buy into his BS. Like, if I ask him a question and I know he’s done something, I know that whatever comes out of his mouth will be a lie. I state my case, I drop it, I walk away, and I allow him time to be truthful, and no longer check up on him, because I found that, oh my goodness me, it was driving me nuts. I felt like I was chasing my whole life, and I was trying to catch him out playing detective, and it just doesn’t work. It just, for me anyway, and I understand there is some control, especially early on when you’re still buying into the gaslighting. But now I’m at a point where it’s like, you know what, you do you. I’ve gone out and I’m back in to work full time. I’m just living my life. to the best of my ability. And the group, like the conversations in the group, and the information in the group, helped me see that betrayal trauma in marriage doesn’t mean I stop living the best life I can. And so yeah, I’m grateful for that, because it’s given me my life back, and enabled me to take my power back as a woman, if that makes sense. Anne: It makes sense. So we talk about boundaries to help yourself heal from betrayal trauma in your marriage a lot at Betrayal Trauma Recovery and in the BTR group. Many people who don’t listen to the podcast, I would say, or misunderstand what we do, accuse me of being pro divorce or a man hater or something like that. Or that Betrayal Trauma Recovery is just a place where if you go there, you’re going to end up bitter and angry. Boundaries & Misconceptions With Betrayal Trauma In Relationships Anne: You are still married. Would you speak to that a little bit and talk about how do you see Betrayal Trauma Recovery? Like, I see us as a safety first organization, right? Your safety is the most important thing, and you can figure out what that looks like in your own life. But could you talk to that point? Nikki: I’ve never seen you say get a divorce or be a man hater. You lay the facts out as they are. Whatever a woman does with that is their choice, their option after betrayal trauma in marriage. Yeah, what you promote though is, are you safe? Are you okay? Anne: We have to walk this fine line, because when we talk about abuse, many people want to say, well, you should only encourage them to leave, like immediately. Then there’s the addiction recovery people. They’re like, no, you should be nice and understanding. Don’t shame them, don’t make any decisions. And know they’re sick. And how can you help them? So we’re not on that side for sure, but I’m right in this section where I want to give people correct information and say, your safety is the most important thing. And I am not living in your shoes. I’m not living in your home. I don’t know all your specific circumstances. So I trust every woman, every victim, to make. The best decisions about her particular situation. So I think that’s one thing that I’m wondering is, do you feel supported in your circumstances and where you are right now in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery group? Do you feel accepted for the decisions you’re making? Complexities Of Abuse Will Cause Confusion Nikki: Yeah, people will always speak from their own inner knowledge or feelings, I think. So whatever you put out on a group. Expect that response from that aspect. You take what you can and leave what you don’t need. Like you said, you’re the only one who knows what’s happening within the relationship. So yeah, I feel supported because I take what I need from it, because I am the only one that knows what’s happening and why I stay within my marriage. We’ve got a lot of financial obligations together. You know, we still have grandchildren that would visit, Grandad, and I’d much prefer to be around. So I know why I stay within my marriage. And I think it’s up to every individual person to make that decision. Anne: People who haven’t been through it, or people who have, I mean, it’s just a lot more complex than I think anybody can even wrap their head around. It’s such a complex situation and it unfolds over time. So not everything can be decided in a split second. Nikki: Everything feels split second when you’re in it though, doesn’t it? Anne: It does. And it feels like you have to, it feels like you have to decide or know everything. There’s this overwhelming desire to resolve things as quickly as possible, whatever resolution means or whatever fixing it means, but it’s impossible to resolve or fix quickly, right? This is a very, very long-term complex problem. Nikki: You know, we’ve found a therapist, we’ve thrown all the money we can at him. Anne: So you’re still with a man who’s continuing to exhibit emotionally abusive behaviors. Future Hopes To Make The Best Of My Life Anne: How do you feel right now? Nikki: Oh boy, okay, so we’ve just had an episode, so everything’s a little bit raw for me just now. Because he’s what I think of as a surface person. He wants everything to look great on the outside, that everything’s going well, and that he’s doing underhanded things, and he gets off knowing that he’s getting away with it. So when he becomes overly nice, I then become on guard, and I wait for the next influx of abuse, emotional abuse. He doesn’t yell, he doesn’t do any of that, he just becomes very quiet. We had, we’ll say, six months of nice. And so I was waiting for it. So we just discovered, and so we’re just going through that now, and he hasn’t gone back to see his therapist. So he’s just waiting to go back to see her, but it’s difficult, because I don’t know what she’s saying to him, or whether he’s telling her partial truths. Have I reached some kind of peace within myself? There is peace around our marriage and our life? No, there isn’t peace. I’m making do with what I’ve got because of circumstance. And that’s awful to say, because it feels like a half life. Anne: Do you feel like you’re progressing toward something? Even though current circumstances are what they are? Do you hope for the future? Nikki: I’ve got a lot of hope for my future, because I’ll make the best of my life no matter what. For our marriage and for us together, we will have to make a step either away, and I don’t think it’s going to be too long down the road. There will be a conversation with my grown children. There Will Always Be Complexity In A Marriage With Betrayal Trauma Nikki: They know about his addiction. I just don’t think they realize how far he’s gone within that addiction. Yep, I’ve got peace in me, but within our marriage, not sure. We’ve got a few big decisions ahead of us, which will affect many outcomes for myself, my daughter, and him. Anne: Well, that is what is so awesome. If I can praise Betrayal Trauma Recovery about BTR, is that we get it. We get it. We get how complex it is, we get that it takes a long time, sometimes. You know what the right thing is or what the thing is you want to do, not necessarily the right thing, but it’s not the right time or other factors, right? There are so many complexities. And having someone who understands and be supportive is helpful. Should we call it that with a long-term trial like this? What should we call it? A long-term problem. What would you tell other women? Let’s say what you went through in your early 30s, so if someone’s listening. And that’s where they’re at. Let’s say they’ve just discovered pornography for the first time. Nikki: Oh my goodness. I’m sorry this is your journey. Get help. Get immediate help. Find a good support network. Find somebody you trust. That you can tell absolutely anything to. And will not judge. And will just be there for you. Find that one person. And walk beside them, and let them walk beside you. Because that’s the best thing you can do for you, to heal you. And know that it’s not your fault. Know that he made choices that have affected both of your lives. It’s just not your fault, though. Knowing About Abusive Marriages Helps With Betrayal Trauma Nikki: And don’t try and fix him. Anne: Oh, we’ve all done that. Nikki: Yep, if we just do this, if I look a bit prettier if I wear this lingerie. If I do that risky behavior that he would like me to do, that’ll make him happy, and he won’t do it anymore. Anne: When women go down that road, they end up doing it more. Or he wants it more, right? There’s no end to it. Nikki: Oh, he wants a bit more freaky. The indulging of their immature behaviors, their man child silliness. And I think that’s something we don’t realize, isn’t it? Is it that they get themselves stuck emotionally at the age they start using? So what you’re actually doing is complying with a teenager, a child. And so, and what happens when a child doesn’t get what it wants? It tantrums. And unfortunately, a man tantrum has a bigger impact, because they’re disposable, to play with like income or whatever it is, you know, that’s protecting the family. Anne: Yeah, well, and also their tantrums are way more sophisticated, right? They might not scream, yell and punch the wall, although some of them do that. But their tantrum might look nice and kind when behind your back they’re spending $10,000 of their retirement. Nikki: Yeah, or they’ve got a hidden phone, so they’re happy to show you the phone they’ve got. And all the while feeling proud of themselves that they’ve got a hidden phone, and that’s what gets them off. Anne: Exactly. When You Need Love, Attend Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Anne: Well, thank you so much for sharing your story and spending time with us today. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group is that amazing place where you can be yourself and understood. Is there anything else that you would like to share about the group or about BTR that you have found helpful? Nikki: For me, in the early stages of betrayal trauma in marriage and now as sort of, I won’t say a veteran, but I’ve been there for a while. This is the place you go to when you need to feel heard, you need to feel safe, you need to reach out. You know, or you just need somebody to say, Hey, I’m here for you. Or you need to feel loved. Because this group, for me anyway, has provided that. Get in contact. You know, try and join the group, because it’s just, if you want to feel loved, this is where it’s at. Anne: That’s good to hear. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is love. They can make choices due to that love and confidence to get them to safety. That’s the whole goal. Nikki: To know you’re not alone and that the crazy making that happens, sometimes this group, has helped me unravel that craziness. This is going on, and in your head, because they’ve gaslighted you so much, you’re forever double guessing your own mind, to notice that you go in there and somebody says, yep, that’s normal. My husband does that. It’s like, it’s what they do, it’s one of their little tactics, and you just come away thinking, Oh, okay. And you can take a big sigh of relief to think, Oh, I’m not that crazy after all. There is Hope After Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Anne: Yeah, no, you are not. You are beautiful, amazing, competent woman. It’s a cool place to be, right? It’s a cool club to be in. With all these awesome women. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to share your story today, and we’ll see you in Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. Nikki: Thank you, Anne.
• When Your Husband Is Constantly Angry: What It Really Means 28.04.2026 30Min.

  If your husband is constantly angry, you’ve probably tried everything to calm the tension. You stay kind, patient, careful, and endlessly understanding. But what if his irritation and outbursts still never make sense? When his anger erupts out of nowhere, it can function as a tactic to control you. Sudden anger knocks you off balance and makes you doubt yourself. It quietly trains you to walk on eggshells. The more unpredictable he becomes, the more power his anger holds over your choices, your home, and your peace. This pattern feels confusing for many women. He often cycles back to being sweet, apologetic, or even tender. That emotional whiplash erodes your instincts. You start wondering if you imagined the problem, if he is “just stressed,” or if you somehow caused the tension. If you are wondering about emotional abuse  take our free emotional abuse quiz. Why Your Husband Is Constantly Angry: The Hidden Purpose Behind His Rage Anne: Today’s guest, Faith, a member of our community, experienced her husband’s anger and she tried everything she could to help him. Here’s part of her story. Faith: His yelling and everything just got to be so much and I thought why is my husband yelling at me? We went to two different Christian counselors. I remember very distinctly, this is not helping. It was like trying to dissect my childhood. And I don’t understand how this is on me when my husband is constantly angry. Anne: If your husband’s anger makes no sense, listen up. Maybe something little sets him off, something that didn’t set him off yesterday or the day before. Or maybe it comes out of nowhere. Like he says, you have the wrong tone, or you used the wrong word. And no matter how calm or kind you are in your attempt to avoid pushing his buttons. He’s still irritated, snappy, or raging, blaming you for something. Control, The Real Reason For His Anger Anne: A lot of women tell me they thought their husband’s anger was about work, stress, financial pressure, but underneath those “reasons”, there’s usually something deeper going on. If he’s constantly angry, his frustration isn’t about any of those things. It’s actually about control. For example, he might use anger to shut down your questions when he hides secret spending or late night behavior he doesn’t wanna explain. He might use it to make you doubt yourself, so you stop suspecting something’s wrong. Or train you to stay quiet, careful, and small, because that keeps him in charge. And just when you start to notice the pattern, he switches. He’s nice again, apologetic, sweet. The man you thought you married. So of course you’re gonna think things are getting better or it won’t happen again. But that’s part of how the lies work. When your husband is constantly angry, his anger controls you through fear, and his apology controls you through hope. Faith lived through this pattern.. From the start of our marriage, his anger got worse. And every time she tried to help, the focus somehow shifted back to her, her childhood, her reactions, her supposed part of the problem. Like so many women, she kept asking, what am I doing wrong? She tried everything, counseling, caregiving, and prayer. While he twisted her every effort to keep her confused about what was going on. Transcript: When your husband is constantly angry Anne: Faith, welcome. Faith: Thank you Anne, it’s good to be here. Anne: So let’s start with your story. Faith: I met my husband in the summer. He was a member of my faith community. And while we were dating, I ignored so many silent red flags in our relationship. I actually even know he had mentioned that he used porn at somebody else’s home, that was a Christian family. And it just all seemed so weird to me. Anne: He’s part of your faith community, what did you think of him at that time? Faith: He was very dynamic, very outgoing. I actually knew that I was lowering my standards as far as some of the things I was looking for by being with him. I knew he had sexual partners prior to me. And that was something important to me. I didn’t want to marry someone who was already sexually active. So I lowered that standard. But I don’t understand why my husband is constantly angry. He drank, he smoked. All those things I wasn’t looking for. But I felt like God wanted me to be with him. Maybe if I influenced and impacted him and his life. Then he would also be a better person. Anne: Let’s talk about the manipulation from the very beginning for a minute. The manipulation begins Anne: Thinking back, when you’re going through it, you don’t recognize this. So this is not something that you would’ve known then. You didn’t do anything wrong, and you were doing the best you could. So when I say this, I’m actually trying to look more at his behaviors than what you were doing. Was there something he did in the beginning to manipulate you to think that? The reason I’m asking is, ’cause in the beginning a lot of men will say things like, “You’re so incredible. You make me a better person. You’re such a good example.” Faith: Well, he did make comments like, I was a good example in his life. Anne: That’s just something that I wanna point out to women. Sometimes you think that it was like a failing on your part, but it’s manipulation on their part from the very beginning. And knowing that helps you heal. ‘Cause you’re like, wait a minute, I didn’t do anything wrong. Part of what we’re going through is trying to realize what actually happened. Faith: We actually broke up twice while dating. We argued a lot, and there were several times that I just couldn’t do it anymore. And again, I felt ignored. There was a lot of anger in him. I always wanted to marry and start a family, I was very young when I met him. I was probably about 19 and I just felt like starting over. This sounds ridiculous, at 21, 22, would just set me back in my timeline. I still felt strongly that I was supposed to be with him. There were some weird, quirky things that we had in common that I took as signs that we should be together. I didn’t see the signs of a toxic relationship. PATTERNS OF CONTROL WHEN A HUSBAND IS CONSTANTLY ANGRY Anne: Did those end up being true later or was he mirroring? Faith: I don’t think that they were enough reason to marry a person, looking back. We had the same first birthday cake, smash cake. We grew up for the first year of our lives on the same street, and didn’t even know it. It was just very weird. Anne: Like it felt cosmic at the time. Faith: But really silly now. It was a whirlwind. I guess I just got caught up in him. Everything became about him. I just thought my husband is constantly angry at me, and it was always something that I did. And I remember one instance where we were at church together, but he was separate from me. He was standing towards the back and I just motioned for him. It was natural to me to just motion and like point to where he could sit next to me. And he became livid with just that simple action, acting like I was treating him like a dog, telling him where to sit. There was an instance where he was very angry. He had an old car that didn’t have air conditioning. He refused to put the windows down for me. We weren’t far from my house, so I remember vividly. I will suck it up. And I’m not letting him know that this gets to me. I could not breathe in the car. I always took blame for his anger Anne: Back then, did you think it was you when your husband is constantly angry? Like if you were different then he wouldn’t be angry, or did you just think like he’s a little crazy? Faith: No, I always viewed it as me. That I made a mistake or I did something, or I did too much, or I was too much. Anne: The whole time you’re trying to improve the situation, you’re doing what any good person would do. You’re like, how can I improve our relationship? So can you talk about the things you tried? It could be anywhere from wearing makeup, to going to couple therapy, to making dinner. It could be any one of various things that we try. Would you take us through all that? Before you discovered his lies. Faith: When he proposed to me. He wanted a quick turnaround. We were engaged for about a year and a half. I actually had some cold feet. But like everything is paid for, and I just kept pushing through. And I got a job and moved out, and he was gonna then move in with me once we were married. Automatically that set me up as a provider. Once we were married, it was about five months in, he worked in a cemetery. He fell into a grave and hurt his back very badly. Anne: Wow, that’s kind of an intense story, sorry. I fell into a grave. Faith: I should also include that I got pregnant right away. There were conversations about him wanting to have a child and immediate. conflict about when to have children Faith: And it was like, no, we should wait. Just get used to being married and being with one another first. I ended up pregnant, and I honestly don’t know how. I don’t know as far as birth control and stuff like that goes. It was a surprise, it was a shock. So here we are, probably a month and a half into our marriage, I find out I’m pregnant. And then five months in, he is hurt. And I’m his caregiver. I can barely even put on my own socks, and I’m having to shower him, wash him, put on his socks, and take him to therapy. And he was on medication. And so I started to blame everything on the medication. I ignored all the signs prior to that. But the medication seemed to make everything worse. I called the police to my house before, because of his verbal aggression. My husband is constantly angry and he’s yelling, and everything just got so much worse. Even after we had our baby, it was awful. My in-laws are emotionally abusive. We actually went to our church. And our pastor recommended a Christian counselor. So we went to two different Christian counselors. I remember first a male and then a female. And I honestly don’t remember, it’s been so long that I don’t remember why we made the switch. But I remember very distinctly, this is not helping. It was like trying to dissect my childhood and stuff like that. And I don’t understand how this is becoming turned around on me when my husband is constantly angry. Manipulation Continues with outbursts of anger when your husband is constantly angry Faith: So there were several more outbursts, I would say. I don’t remember what we were fighting about. Our daughter was probably about three years old, and I had her in the shower. He was so angry that he ripped the shower head from the shower. It was one of those hanging ones. I could no longer rinse her or anything like that. Then he left. I didn’t know where he went. That was probably the last outburst I remember as a big fight. And then I think I just learned I’m not gonna push his buttons. Like if I remain calm and stop being the trigger for his anger, then he won’t be angry. Anne: That is so hard, because none of us realize this, that is a form of control. So you’re then living in this box or this glass house a little bit or something. These parameters that you can’t cross, because those are the ones he set up. He built it around you, without you even realizing what had happened. So that you’re limited in what you can do, what you can say, and what you can express. He built all those limitations around you, manipulating you through his anger, because your husband is constantly angry. And that’s not how we view it when we’re going through it. Because we view it as like, if I don’t do this, he won’t get angry. Rather than he got angry on purpose about these things in order to control me. So that control that you were living under, of course you did not realize it. Was he calling you controlling? How was he lying about you at this time? Faith: I definitely know that there were times where he was saying that I was questioning him too much. calling the police didn’t help Anne: The questioning him too much is very common for someone who’s lying a lot. Then your husband is constantly angry. Because they don’t want a lot of questions. They’re very annoying to liars. Faith: Honestly, I can’t remember even what caused the fights. He makes sure now, he even told our kids, that I hit him three times. I do remember fighting him once, I don’t even think I would call it a slap. I think it was more like a push away kind of swat. But I always recognized that I was becoming someone I didn’t like. Regardless of what was going on in the relationship. And I also wanna mention that I learned pretty quickly. He punched a hole in a door. He had threatened verbally to bury me in my backyard. At that point, I did call the police, and he would go outside and wait for them to come. And looking back on that, I can see where police would come see a calm man, and the irrational, crazy woman is in the house, so upset, emotionally distraught. Eventually I also learned not to even call them. Several times it was offered to me to file a PFA, but I knew it would be over. And at that point I think I was in protection of children mode. I knew that if, I filed a PFA… Anne: For our listeners who aren’t aware of what a PFA is, could you define that? Faith: It’s an order of protection from abuse. And my husband told me that if I did that, the relationship would be over. There would be no repairing it. And to have a young child in that, I felt very protective of her. How Anger, Apology, and Control Create a Cycle of Confusion Faith: He was military background, military trained, and so he could disappear with her. There was a strong desire to keep my family together. And a religious belief that was anti-divorce, like divorce was not in the vocabulary. Anne: Did you do any other counseling other than the Christian counseling that you talked about? Faith: No, at some point I called our female counselor late at night one night. And talked with her over the phone because I was so upset. It seemed like I’m just tattling on him and getting no help. It’s not helping. And then, like I said, there was a period where things calmed. It actually seemed like it improved. I tricked myself into thinking everything healed, because his anger lessened. We actually had another child. During that time, I would’ve categorized our relationship as pretty good. There were still gaps. There were still things like he was staying up late at night, not going to bed with me. We weren’t communicating that great. There were missing things. There were pieces of the puzzle of our relationship. It seemed like a big hole that I could not fill. I couldn’t figure out what it was. So we went to Family Life Weekend to Remember, one geared just to us. Then we went back and volunteered. When we volunteered, I thought, and this is it. We could be like a power couple and tell what our story was and how we got through it. How we came about healing, and that was not true at all. Financial Abuse takes off when your husband is constantly angry Anne: He was good at pretending and playing the part. Faith: Yes, and we would come home from those things, like we would learn all of these ways of connection and we would come home from those things and he might get up in the morning and gimme a hug before I left for work the next day. And then nothing after that. I just felt like an invisible person in my own home. Anne: And at this time when your husband is constantly angry, were you still the sole provider? Faith: Yes, I have always been the primary breadwinner. He eventually owned his own business after he got fired. It was a couple years after he started his own business where financial abuse took off. It became apparent that he was paying himself into our joint account for a couple of years. And then suddenly, he actually didn’t discuss it with me. He said, I opened up my own account. And that’s to protect us in case I am sued by anybody.They can’t come after what we have. They can only come after what I have. But that was very much part of what he spent on things. His money was his money. And my money was our money. Anne: Our money, these stories unfortunately all have similar patterns. So I’m guessing, it’s so typical of a man who lies like this. Who’s taking these steps to protect his lies, that the next thing that happens is that you find something out. I’m not sure if that’s where you were going. How He Used Anger to Cover His Lies and Confuse the Truth Faith: Yes, I was. Anne: Okay, so let’s talk about that. Like how did you find out what he actually did with his unaccounted for time? Faith: So ironically, I was going to counseling with my pastor at the time, me individually because something feels off. Feel off, meaning I feel like something is wrong. Something was missing, and it had to be within me. It was my problem to deal with. And so I came home from a counseling session. It probably would’ve been around the fall, Which was the same time my mom was diagnosed with cancer. So all kinds of things in my own personal life are going on. And my husband tells me point blank that he no longer loves me anymore. But he’ll still protect me and die for me. So I take that as a twist on scripture, because in our faith, the man is to be the protector. And I was devastated to hear that. Then shortly after that he told me that he had an issue with porn and that he needed me to help him with that. Anne: What did he say? What lie did he tell, that you needed to help him with? Was it that you needed to give him sex when he wanted, so he didn’t look at porn. How, did he lie to you in that way to manipulate you? Faith: The fact that I had a low drive. I wasn’t giving him enough, so I needed to be there for him when he needed me, So that he didn’t view porn. Finding out about him betraying me Anne: Was this backed up by like the pastor or therapist or anyone else that enabled this type of lie to take root? Faith: I honestly don’t know. Because at this point, I was going to talk with someone. But we were not seeing anyone together. And this was so devastating and embarrassing. I remember feeling so embarrassed. Like who do I talk to? I told my best friend. And I told the pastor that I was talking with for counseling. I’m not gonna say that it didn’t seem like a big deal to them, but it’s like their hands are tied. There’s nothing out there. It was just like, there’s nothing out there for help. I felt so alone. I had nothing. It started to feel like, this is Every Man’s Battle. Anne: Yeah. Faith: And that’s like, yeah, I do have to step up and help him. So I took it upon myself that I communicated with him. I’m just not gonna tell you no. I often slept downstairs. I have several health issues, migraines, vertigo, and it would be compounded sleeping in the same bed with someone else. So I just slept downstairs and he woke me up one night. I was in a dead sleep, so it was like, no. And he went upstairs at that point I’m awake and I decided to follow him and he was in our bedroom with a tablet and I just lost it. I was like, it doesn’t even matter, and I actually left the house for the night. And slept in my car, in my church parking lot. When your husband is constantly angry His deep character shows through Faith: We never discussed our issues. So when I surfaced the next day, I put on a happy face and pretended to be the happy family. He didn’t even ask where I went. There was no worrying, no concern for my wellbeing of where I was for the night. He blamed me that he had to take the kids to soccer hungover. I took that pretty hard too, because his drinking always bothered me. He would use scripture to say, “As long as I’m not drunk, I’m not breaking scripture.” Like you can drink in moderation and be okay. But here he admits he was drunk, and blames me. For having the responsibilities he had as a dad the following day and for his behavior the night before. That’s when some things started to unravel for me as far as his deep character. Who he claims to be is not who he is. I started to definitely put up some walls. I was still not saying no, I just know that it was like a checklist. Just something I have to do. I guess the phrase I wanna use is not rock the boat when my husband is constantly angry. And then, I’m going to give all the credit to God, because the scales started to fall off my eyes. I know many people criticize Focus on the Family in our circles. But God can use anything. I’m a firm believer in that. There was a man named Brant Hansen who was on Focus on the Family on my way to work. And he was talking about men being keepers of the garden, and he came to the conclusion that he was, who his wife needed protection from. Things Start to unravel Faith: It was something about the phrase. That he was willing to die for her, but did he truly cherish and love her? And boy did that phrasing wake me up after hearing what my husband had told me. The Lord started to use that to wake me up to what I was actually living in. And once you see it, you can’t unsee it. Anne: Right. Faith: Things started to unravel from there. I couldn’t go back. My husband was amping it up as far as like, blaming me for erectile dysfunction. When he was on many medications. He was drinking heavily, none of that could have influenced his inabilities. But it was all my fault. I had actually called off work one day to spend the whole day with him. I came down the steps and he said, “It would be really nice if you put on red lipstick.” So it was funny to me that you mentioned makeup, because I actually don’t wear makeup. It’s never been something I’ve been comfortable doing. I just never liked it. That’s not part of who I am. I don’t even own red lipstick. So nothing happened that day because I was so upset. Anne: Yeah. Faith: I said, I feel like you don’t wanna be with me. You’re asking me to become someone else so that you can be turned on, or whatever it is that you’re looking for. It is not me. Anne: He didn’t even know you well enough to know that you didn’t have any. Faith: Right. Anne: Or alternatively, maybe he did, and he was lying to really hurt you. That could be true too. Wow, I’m so sorry. Feeling like a failure as a wife Faith: I ended up doing the things that he asked me to do. I went and bought lipstick. I went and got some lingerie, and believe it or not, it still did not go well. Anne: Sorry, I believe you. Faith: So that was the last time that we were intimate and I use intimate in the loosest term because there was definitely no real true intimacy probably the entire marriage. I could no longer open myself up and I actually didn’t know the language, so I didn’t know that I was putting in place boundaries. Because I was uncomfortable sharing myself with him. I didn’t know that. At that point, it was like, I’m just a failure as a wife. I can’t do anything to please him, because my husband is constantly angry. Nothing was ever pleasant. So if we were on a date night, he would always bring up a rough topic. On this particular date night, he told me he was looking into getting a penis pump, so that he could do whatever he needed. And prevent prostate cancer. And I have a medical history of HPV, which he’s been my only partner. Anne: Oh, yeah. Faith: So considering that could cause cervical cancer. I seriously couldn’t even believe what was coming out of his mouth. Anne: Right. Finding BTR when your husband is constantly angry Faith: It’s all self, everything that came out of his mouth just sounded so selfish to me anymore. Anne: Yeah, for good reason ‘ cause it was selfish. Faith: So I came across BTR and Betrayal Trauma Group sessions.. I really don’t know how, I think I was just searching best betrayal trauma resources online. I didn’t even know what betrayal trauma was. And I didn’t know that’s what was going on with me. It was definitely a God thing, because it seemed like it came out nowhere and was a much needed resource. Because you were the first to tell me exactly everything that was my experience. And I listen to you when I’m driving. I just found myself crying with you, laughing with you at times too. And I just wanna take this time right now to thank you for putting yourself out there to help others. Because without you, I would still probably think I am crazy. Because many of the groups I participate in still don’t talk about porn use as that betrayal piece. Yes, they recognize it, I think, as contributing to a destructive relationship, would be their terminology. But the pieces that you hit on, it’s exactly everything I experienced, and it just made it all make sense. I’m not crazy. Anne: You’re surviving crazy, but you are not crazy, and so much of it, even the parts that you think maybe you missed, or that you think maybe you allowed it, or something like that. That’s not true. It’s what he’s manipulated you to think because he’s a liar, but not because it’s actually true. And it takes a while to separate all that manipulation from the truth, when your husband is constantly angry,. His problems have nothing to do with you Anne: I’m so grateful my podcast was helpful. Is there anything that you would you like to share with women who are listening? Faith: I think what I would wanna say is that you are worth so much. And it’s not your fault. It’s not on you, that you don’t have to carry the burdens on your shoulders. Anne: Yeah, it is such a burden, when your husband is constantly angry and he’s manipulating you. But then all the extra burden society puts on you. Or therapists who don’t understand the situation or other people who give you the impression that you had something to do with it or that you played a role and you didn’t. The first step to emotional safety is to recognize that it has literally nothing to do with you, even though it affects you very much. Because I think those two juxtaposition things where it’s like it doesn’t have anything to do with you, so it shouldn’t bother you very much. There’s that and that’s not true either. Even though it has nothing to do with you, it does hurt you and it affects you on a very deep level. Well, thank you so much for sharing part of your story. I would love to have you come back in six months or a year to let us know where you are then. Therapy never works with a liar Anne: So are you still married now? What’s your current situation? Faith: My current situation, he actually suggested couple therapy again. I filed for divorce, last year. Our oldest daughter just turned 19, and our youngest is 15. In my state, everything is a 50/50 split. They don’t care what your story is. My daughter started to refuse to go to his house, and so I’m now fighting for her. So far, the judge has heard her without even seeing her, that 50/50 is off the table. And although they are supposed to do counseling, that’s all starting right now, is them doing counseling. Anne: No one should ever, ever be suggesting, not the court, not anyone. Ever, ever be suggesting counseling if a husband is constantly angry or with someone who is abusive. Faith: I know how it went for me. I feel like they’re never going to label him as abusive. It’s never going to happen. It doesn’t matter like what my experiences have been. Anne: No, and it doesn’t matter what anyone’s are. Sorry, I just get livid about it. Faith: I know. Anne: Therapy never works with a liar. It never ever does. It never ever will. You’re only putting someone in harm’s way. Even if you don’t wanna call him an abuser, at the very least he’s a liar. So he is never gonna benefit from therapy. Taking off the mask and finding Family Support when your husband is constantly angry Faith: I have been fortunate to have a dad who believes me and supports me, because I know I lived a lie. I lived with a mask that I presented to the world. And I said, “I’m not going to do that anymore.” When I investigated how bad the situation was to get a divorce, I sat my kids down and I said, “I’m going to be the one who tears our family apart.” I was crying. They looked at each other, smiled and said, “Mom, it’s about time.” So, kids see, kids definitely see. Anne: Well, Faith, you are incredible. Thank you so, so much for coming and sharing your story, and I look forward to you coming back on the podcast to let us know how you’re doing. Thank you so much. Faith: Thank you Anne.
• Coercive Control Examples: The Hidden Ways He Undermines Partnership 21.04.2026 18Min.

  Coercive control is a sustained pattern of controlling a domestic partner. However, coercive control inherently means that it’s not a partnership at all. Here’s why. Coercive Control Definition Coercive control is a sustained pattern of control in marriage through deception. It’s a system of deception and manipulation meant to give one partner power while maintaining the appearance of normalcy, even goodness. The key word is pattern. Often, the spouse being controlled doesn’t recognize it. From the outside, all she sees is a husband who seems kind, composed, spiritual, or self-aware. And coercive control can continue both during marriage and after separation or divorce. If your husband starts to exhibit behaviors he never exhibited before marriage, it’s likely that the man you fell in love with was a mask he wore to coerce you to marry him. This means you may have been experiencing emotional and psychological abuse the entire time. Learning the 19 different types of emotional abuse is essential. Our free emotional abuse quiz will help you see if what you’re experiencing is harmful to you. Why Coercive Control Is So Hard to Identify When your marriage isn’t functioning as a partnership, it can be incredibly difficult to name why. That’s because coercive control isn’t just manipulation, it’s an entire hidden structure. Many men who use coercive control work very hard to conceal it. They may appear: Calm Rational Faithful Engaged in therapy “Trying” Accountable Meanwhile, their wives often feel: Confused Anxious Emotionally exhausted Responsible for everything wrong Like they’re “too sensitive” I’ve interviewed over 200 women who have experienced coercive control in marriage. Many are highly educated. Some work in mental health, law, social work, or education. They understand trauma and communication systems. And almost all of them say: “I don’t know how I missed it.” Here’s the truth: If it’s happening to you, you didn’t miss it. It was purposefully hidden from you. The fundamental tactic of coercive control is deception. Transcript: Coercive Control in Marriage Anne:  Controlling and coercive men maintain power over their wives through deception. Wendy, a member of our community, is here to share her story. Welcome Wendy. Why don’t you start wherever you feel comfortable? Wendy: I was married for about 15 and a half years, and found out a couple years in that he was viewing exploitative content. I was crushed. I remember the first time I found out I went downstairs, and I curled up in a ball on the living room floor. And just crying, and it’s like the only time I remember being that devastated. My husband wouldn’t stop lying to me. He disclosed every so often that he viewed this. And of course, it seemed like it was just that one time. I’m a heavy sleeper, and I distinctly remember waking up a few times, feeling like I had had intercourse, but I didn’t remember. I remember feeling worthless, and I felt like everything in our relationship that was wrong was my fault. Because I didn’t enjoy it with my husband. And that’s when I discovered this whole new world. And I found out way more than I guess I ever wanted to know. The Miserable Experience Caused By Coercive Control you Can’t See Anne: I totally understand. At 30 I was a virgin and so excited. I’m not a prude by any stretch. We married, and after two days of, I was like, this is miserable. I felt like an object. The whole experience, everything around it was awful too. I just felt used and worthless. And then afterward I’d say something like, what are you thinking about? Hoping that he would connect with me in some way. And talk about me or us or something. But pretty much every time he’d say something like bike parts, and he’d be like staring into space. It felt completely disconnected. and. After a while, I was like, this isn’t fun for me at all. And this has nothing to do with me. It’s all about him. From then on, I didn’t want to, but I continued to initiate because I thought I had to. I thought it was my job. I thought it’s like a chore that I check off the list. And I did not realize that that was coercion. Wendy: Right, I enjoyed it when we first married. But then I suffered from what I thought was postpartum depression. Searching For Answers After Marriage Feels Off Wendy: I couldn’t even sleep in our bed. I slept on the couch. So I went to counseling and was better for a while. But I always felt like everything was my fault, and any issues were my fault. And there were people around me saying the same thing. Someone even told me that I should have it with my husband anytime he wanted. And that made me feel terrible. And I didn’t tell my husband about that. I kept that to myself. I just felt so worthless. For a while, I was like, Oh, well, my husband never abused me. I really thought that and then. In the school library online, I was looking for studies on abuse in marriage, and I was coming up empty. I just did a Google search and put in emotional abuse and marriage, and this study came up where they called it wife ##e. And that’s when it hit home, that’s what it was. Once I had that, I found a few more studies on it. I ended up on the National Domestic Violence Hotline website, and it actually has definitions of coercion. Defining What’s Happening To You as Coercive Control Wendy: It talked about coercion. I had mostly experienced the coercion. And then it led me to other resources. As I learned more about this topic, I thought, that is exactly what happened. My husband did do this to me, but it was the coercion part that struck me and hit home. And then he admitted to doing this to me in my sleep. I don’t want other women to experience the same thing I experienced for so long. Anne: It’s absolutely is, and a man can do this to his wife for years without her understanding what’s actually happening. Let’s go back to coercion. Cause it’s something I talk about so much here on the podcast. What did you learn about coercion in your research? Wendy: Sure, the first thing they mention is making you feel like you owe them because you’re married to them. You’re in a relationship, they spent money on you, they bought you a gift. They give you drugs and alcohol to loosen up your inhibitions, playing on the fact that you’re in a relationship. Saying such things as it is a way to prove your love for me. Examples Of Coercion Wendy: If I don’t get it from you, I’ll get it somewhere else. Reacting negatively with sadness, anger, or resentment. If you say no or don’t immediately agree to something. Continuing to pressure you after you say no. Making you feel threatened or afraid of what might happen if you say no. And trying to normalize their expectations. For example, I need it, I’m a man. Mostly it’s like trying to make you feel obligated. to have it with them. Anne: So many women feel obligated to have it with their husbands. They don’t want to, but they’re worried about the consequences if they stopped. Wendy: Right, yeah Anne: On the flip side, they could be abusive to you because they’re hiding things, and maybe hooking up with people. And they’re not initiating with you at all. Because they are spending all their energy outside the marriage Wendy: Right, and actually one of the studies I looked at mentioned that withholding can be a form of abuse. Anne: That’s something the abuser will do. The abuser will say she’s withholding. She’s abusing me. But withholding is completely different than not having it with someone, because they are emotionally and psychologically unsafe. Wendy: Exactly. Anne: This is why this issue is so difficult with therapists or clergy or other people who don’t understand coercion. Is they’ll say, well, wife, you’re the abusive one because you are withholding. Then, because they believe men need it or they’re going to die or something. If you feel uncomfortable having it with him. That justifies him having it with prostitutes or multiple affairs. The Myth of Male “Needs” When Justifing Abuse Anne: A man will not die if he does not have it. If so, what, all boys would die instantly when they were 12 or something? Wendy: Right, yeah, it doesn’t make any sense. Anne: So when you feel unsafe and don’t want to have it, and so you don’t. Why would you want to be intimate with your husband if he was yelling at you, for example? The addict or the abuser will accuse you of withholding. A mutually beneficial relationship is coercive. I don’t love the word consent. You might’ve heard a podcast I did about it previously, where we talk about how consent isn’t exactly the right word to use. Abusers think it’s the yes that matters, not how they get the yes. So they’re willing to lie to you to get a yes. Wendy: Personally, I didn’t realize that a mutual agreement between the partners about what they want needs to happen every time, and just because you’re in a relationship doesn’t automatically give consent. One of the things you talk about is safety. Anne: Yeah, safety is huge. If you want it to be mutually beneficial and emotionally and psychologically safe. Then you need to know the truth. That’s information you’d want to know just to be in a relationship with him, let alone have it with him. Wendy: Right, exactly. And there are lots of women that end up with an STD or an STI, and a lot of times the husband’s like, I don’t know how you got that. You got that from the toilet. You know, Anne, there’s one thing the National Domestic Violence Hotline website says sticks out. Recognizing Manipulation Wendy: It’s not consent if you’re afraid or unable to say no. So it’s not consent if you’re manipulated, pressured, or threatened to say yes. It’s also not consent if you’re unable to legitimately give consent, which includes being asleep, unconscious, or under the influence of conscious altering substances like alcohol. Some prescription medications and other drugs. Anne: Or if he’s purposefully hiding information from you. If he’s lying to you, that’s manipulation. If you think he’ll sleep with someone else, if you don’t have it with him, that’s a threat. And If you think he’ll divorce you if you don’t have it with him, that’s a threat. If you think he’ll be sulky all day, if you don’t have it with him, that is a threat. So when it says manipulated, pressured or threatened. To see us think about all the different ways, they threaten us most of the time, extremely subtly. Wendy: Yes, that also goes on in the manipulation. Because they’re already manipulating you. I thought it was interesting, because a lot of times they just talk about the abuses and physical assaults. That’s what TV and movies show. They don’t show this other stuff. And so I thought it was really interesting that the National Domestic Violence Hotline includes that in their information about consent and abuse by coercion. Anne: Yeah, I received a review from a man who said this podcast wasn’t great. Because my definition of abuse is different than the standard definition. And it’s legit, the definition of coercion we use here is the basic definition of coercion that the National Domestic Violence Hotline uses. I think he just doesn’t want to admit that this can happen to women for years by their own husband and not know. Recognizing Marital Coercion Anne: Here’s an example of how women don’t know they’re being harmed by this. I have a wonderful friend. She believes in not having it until marriage, and she was dating someone. And she said something about how she’d gone too far. I was like, what do you mean? And then she said, well, I don’t know. I didn’t want to have it. I kept saying, no, I tried not to, but then we did have it. and she just had this confused look on her face. And I told her what had been happening. And it was like I had punched her in the stomach. It was not until that moment that she realized this, and not just once. Multiple times over the three years she dated him. And I hugged her, and she backed away from me. She was obviously extremely traumatized, and this was a trauma response. And she was having maybe a panic attack. She was breathing heavily. She put her hands on the counter, and it took her a while to calm down. When she did, she said, I didn’t realize until this moment that my boyfriend had done this to me for three years. And so many women tell me the same story about what their husband chose to do to them. Most of the time when I talk to women before they realize what’s happening. I ask, are you being abused? They tell me no. We have a rough marriage, we have communication issues. We have intimacy issues. Educating Women On Emotional Abuse & Coercion Wendy: And I think it makes it harder, because my husband didn’t punch walls. If we got into an argument, he would shut down completely and keep it all in. And so it took me a while to realize that I had been abused. You know, there was gaslighting. He always minimized my feelings, because he didn’t think I should ever be angry about anything. It never dawned on me, I would have answered the same way. I would have said, no, I don’t think I’m being abused. Anne: We need to educate women about this type of abuse, so that women can have words for what’s happening to them. Many people discourage women from thinking their husband is abusive in this way. Because they’re worried about her reporting and then going through a very difficult legal situation. I don’t want anyone to think I am suggesting you report this. You can, if you would like, but the likelihood of him actually being prosecuted or pleading guilty is extremely remote. Learning About Coercive Control If this discussion makes people uncomfortable because they’re like, well, then you have to report. Nothing about this episode is about reporting it. You don’t need to report it. I think knowing what’s happened to you is helpful for healing. The most important thing is that you know what happened. And, that you know the truth. And that’s why it’s so important for women to have a place where they can talk about it. Or talk about when they realized their husband had been doing this to them for years and they didn’t know. The question of whether you’re going to report it or not doesn’t even have to come into the discussion. I created my workshop for women to know what strategic actions to take if they’re experiencing coercive control. Seeking Support & Healing Wendy: Finding somebody to talk to who is going to be supportive, that’s not going to say, “Well, you’re just making that up.” or “There’s no way, because he’s such a good guy.” Reaching out for support is helpful. Really, understanding what it is and what you’ve been through, and knowing that you’re not alone. I think those are the two biggest things that are helpful. Anne: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, your emotional and psychological safety. is our absolute top priority. Our coaches can help you process what you’ve been through and support you as you make your way to emotional safety. In whatever way that’s going to look like in your specific situation. Everybody’s journey looks different, and they’ll support you in what you decide. It’s just so important that when you go for help, you get it from a safe person. Wendy, thank you so much for contacting me. You are so brave, and you can talk about this difficult topic in such an unflinching way. It’s so important that we do. It’s one of the most important things to know about coercive control. And your example will help so many women. So thank you so much for the suggestion to talk about this and for being willing to share your story. I appreciate it so much. Wendy: Awesome, thanks for having me.
• He Says I’m Controlling But I’m Not – What You Need To Know 14.04.2026 42Min.

  Have you thought to yourself, “he says I’m controlling but I’m not.” If so, he’s likely emotionally and psychologically abusive. Here are 3 things to know. There are 19 different types of emotional abuse. To see if he’s emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz. 1. But What If I’m Actually Controlling? If a man is emotionally mean and wants to keep hurting someone, he might call her actions to feel safe “controlling” to trick her into stopping. This doesn’t mean you should stop looking for the truth or setting boundaries for your emotional safety. To learn about the most strategic ways to deal with his control, check out The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mfE5cABLp4 You’re not controlling if your desire is simply to keep yourself and your children safe and healthy. 2. Why Does He Say I’m Controlling? An abuser tricks people by lying to his victim and he says i’m controlling but i’m not. Is lying emotional abuse? Yes. It works a lot, and others around him believe his lies. But it’s not controlling to state your opinion or ask another adult to do their share. Do you know what is controlling? Lying and manipulation. The truth is, his accusation is really an admission. He’s the one controlling the narrative through his deceitful communication. 3. His Friends and Family Say His Ex Was Crazy Controlling If a man tells you that his ex was controlling (and has manipulated his friends and family the same way), it’s likely he’s grooming you to not ask too many questions. He usually wants a woman to give him enough space to do secret things he knows are outside her boundaries, like pornography, soliciting prostitutes, or other harmful, abusive behavior. If someone tries to make you leave them alone because they’re hiding things, it could be a warning sign of emotional or mental abuse. They might also try to pressure you into doing things you don’t want to do. If He Says You’re Controlling, You Need Support At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we understand what’s really going on when he says things like this to create confusion. We’d love to support you in your journey to emotional safety. Listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to learn more. Transcript: He Says I’m Controlling But I’m Not Anne: In marriage, what’s the difference between controlling and expecting reasonable behavior? If he says I’m controlling but I’m not, here are three signs that he’s actually saying this to maintain control. 1. He calls your boundaries controlling. When you refuse to participate in behavior that you think is unacceptable, whether it’s believing his lies or not asking him questions when you don’t know where he has been, he’s trying to control the way you perceive him. 2. If he’s lying. The purpose of lying is control. And so if he’s lying, he’s the one trying to control you, not the other way around. 3. When your desire is for equality and peace, and his desire is to do what he wants. So if he told you that his ex was controlling when you met, it’s likely he was grooming you to not ask too many questions. Because then, later, when he says ‘I’m controlling, but I’m not,’ he can flip the script and accuse you of being controlling whenever he’s not getting his way. That’s the crazy thing about controlling men. Most women married to men like this don’t want power over, payback or revenge. They just want reasonableness, like honesty and equality. Coercive Control 101: When he says I’m controlling but I’m not Anne: Today I’ll interview Dr. Emma Katz. Here’s a preview of what she’s going to talk about today: Dr. Katz: What victim survivors want is just a restoration of reasonableness. They just want to interact with that person in a reasonable way and get reasonableness back again. And then they’re constantly dealing with the coercive controller. And they don’t want reasonableness or fairness, they want control. He says I’m controlling but I’m not because he wants to enjoy watching you suffer, to manipulate people for their own ends, to their own advantage. An entirely different, malicious agenda motivates them. So if people wonder, could I be a coercive controller? For most people, if you’re even asking that question, it’s unlikely. Anne: Dr. Katz is a senior lecturer in criminology at Edgehill University in the U.K. Her work has shaped understandings of coercive control across the globe. Her book, Coercive Control in Children’s and Mother’s Lives by Oxford University Press is the first academic book to focus on children and coercive control. She brings her research to the public in an accessible and influential way on her platform, Decoding Coercive Control with Dr. Emma Katz, where she writes articles that are read by tens of thousands of people in more than 100 countries around the world. Welcome Dr. Katz. Dr. Katz: Thanks so much for having me. Definition of Coercive control Anne: Thank you for being here. Dr. Katz, let’s start with the definition of coercive control. Dr. Katz: Coercive control is when one person sets up a dynamic in a relationship of “do what I say, or else.” That’s it in a nutshell. To go into it in a bit more detail, it’s when one person is subjecting another to persistent and wide-ranging controlling behavior, controlling multiple aspects of their life. Even though he says I’m controlling but I’m not. And this goes on for a significant period of time, and the perpetrator makes it clear that if you don’t cooperate with them, if you don’t obey them, they’re going to make life very unpleasant, very difficult for you. And within that, there’s a whole range of different things that they’ll do to you if you are not cooperating, from physical violence to sexual violence, to psychological and emotional abuse. To isolating you, to draining you economically, to hurting your loved ones, and many forms of punishment that they’ll inflict on you, if they don’t think you’re cooperating enough with them, obedient enough to them. Anne: Sadly, listeners to this podcast understand this issue on a very personal level, including myself in terms of counter parenting, that I dealt with for eight years post-divorce. It was very, very difficult. Thank goodness I’m past that now. For our listeners, who are victims of their husband’s lying or their ex-husband’s lying, and he is lying a lot to control the narrative. You talk about the difference between that and say, a loving mom who might get angry with her kid for not doing his homework. Control that parents exert over children Anne: I’m just thinking of myself as a single mom. I have two teenage boys, and right now there’s a lot of, get your butt off the couch right now and do your homework right now. And their dad is so nice to them. Like the sticky sweet, super nice. But the way he really does try to control what they do, like actually undermining their homework, getting them not to take baseball, or dropping their instrument lessons. ‘Cause so many of our listeners have been accused. Dr. Katz: So firstly, certainly when we’re a parent, we need to have some control over our children. So, if someone needs to have some control over their children as a parent, that’s healthy and normal. Because obviously children don’t have the development to always make the healthiest and smartest choice. Sometimes they need some guidance on that. And on how to effectively contribute to the household. So as long as what the parent expects is reasonable and in the child’s best interests. That’s fine. Anne: Like going to bed. Dr. Katz: Going to bed, brushing their teeth. Anne: Doing their homework. Dr. Katz: Yeah, not eating junk food all the time, that sort of thing. And being nice to each other, treating each other in a reasonable, fair way. So then, let’s talk about a controlling person. He says I’m controlling but I’m not: Characteristics of A Controlling person Dr. Katz: They may have some controlling tendencies, but you shouldn’t be terrified of them, because if you’re terrified of them, they’re way more than controlling, they’re abusive. A controlling person, you may need to stand up to them quite firmly, and you may need to set some boundaries with them, but they shouldn’t respond by punishing you maliciously, making your life hell. Because again, if they’re punishing you for standing up to them, we’re getting way beyond controlling. We’re getting into abusive. So now let’s talk about coercive controllers. They are way beyond a person with some controlling tendencies, because they are driven to have a lot of control over multiple domains of your life. And they’re not doing it in your best interest, but rather because they want to undermine you. A coercive controller wants to chip away at their targets. We’ve heard expressions like chipping away at a person, death by a thousand cuts. That’s what a coercive controller is trying to do. They’re trying to basically take a person and turn them into a hollowed out puppet on a string who just exists to please and serve them. They view it as their right and entitlement to turn you into a kind of puppet on a string who will just exist to please and serve them and have no needs, rights, dreams or wishes of your own. That’s the difference between like healthy parenting and then being a controlling person. Reasonableness vs. Abuse: What it really means when he says I’m controlling but I’m not Dr. Katz: But you shouldn’t scare people with how controlling you are, and then being a coercive controller, which is highly abusive. Anne: And when he accuses you of being controlling, it’s not because you actually are, it’s because you’re not doing what he wants. He says I’m controlling, but I’m not, simply means he’s losing access to the compliance he expected. Dr. Katz: No, I’m sure they’re just setting reasonable boundaries. So let’s talk about the vast difference in intention between somebody who’s being coercively controlled and a coercive controller. So, somebody who’s being coercively controlled wants fairness. They want the person to behave in a reasonable way that a reasonable person would accept as reasonable. Obviously, it depends on who you are asking. Some people might have unreasonable ideas about how people should behave. So that might be tricky. Like if you’re not sure about it and ask your parents, but your parents aren’t reasonable. And then they say, “No, you sound like you’re being unreasonable.” But you can think about it and think, oh, okay, maybe my parents actually aren’t that unreasonable. Anne: An example with my son, it should not take two hours to empty the dishwasher. Dr. Katz: Yeah. Anne: That’s pretty reasonable. Dr. Katz: Reasonable, yeah. It shouldn’t take two hours to empty the dishwasher. Survivors want a restoration of reasonableness, When Both Care and have respect Dr. Katz: So fairness, we’re talking about, I put into the relationship, and so do you. I can discuss my worries constructively with you, and you can discuss your worries constructively with me. We both care about how each other feels. We both generally want the best for each other. Even when we’re having a big argument, we still respect each other as human beings. We still see that we’re human beings here who just fundamentally have dignity and rights. And we each have a level of respect for each other, even if we don’t like each other much in that moment. So, reasonableness, yeah. What victim survivors want is just a restoration of reasonableness. They just want to interact with this perpetrator, who obviously they may not be seeing as a perpetrator in that moment. It might be your husband or ex-husband, but they want to interact with that person in a reasonable way and get reasonableness back again. And then they’re constantly having to deal with the coercive controller pushing and pushing and pushing them, and not doing anything reasonably. So, obviously they’re going to get upset, agitated, and frustrated about that, but that doesn’t mean they’re a bad person. They’re just dealing with a very unreasonable person who has no respect for them. And it’s hard to deal with someone like that. Now the coercive controller, they don’t want reasonableness. They don’t want fairness, they want control and want to enjoy watching you suffer. They want to manipulate people for their own ends, to their own advantage. Coercive Control is Domestic Abuse Dr. Katz: They don’t care about how people feel or the impacts of their behavior on the person, beyond being able to manipulate them to get what they want out of them. So an entirely different, malicious agenda motivates them. So if people wonder, could I be a coercive controller? Well, I think for most people, if you’re even asking that question, it’s unlikely. Because a coercive controller is usually pretty convinced they’re in the right, and they wouldn’t even stop to self-reflect most of the time on whether they were doing anything wrong. Because they only see their own entitlement to control, and they don’t stick to any reasonable behavior perhaps agreed upon. Don’t blame yourself. These people are just some of the most difficult people on the planet to deal with. Coercive control is part of domestic abuse. And another term coined to try and describe it is intimate partner terrorism or ex-partner terrorism. You could also say, so it’s like they’re your own personal terrorist, trying to control you through fear, trying to control you through power games, trying to stop you from living the normal life that citizens in your community normally live. So when you hear something like “He says I’m controlling, but I’m not,” that’s exactly the type of upside-down dynamic they create. It’s very severe and serious behavior. So perpetrators have to get quite sneaky about what they’re doing. If they really acted as though they were their own dictator, 24 hours a day, seven days a week, just forever. Then they would lose a lot of their power to keep that going, because ultimately it would be so horrific to go through all the time that the victim survivors would just run away. Coercive controllers never take proper accountability: he says i’m controlling but i’m not Dr. Katz: They would rather be homeless on the street than deal with it. So if they want to keep control of the victim survivor as long as possible. Particularly while the relationship’s still happening. So, they have to disguise what they’re doing by claiming they’re doing it out of kindness, out of protectiveness, out of care. I only do this because I love you. I only do this because I worry about you. I’m doing this in your best interests. You are not very good at doing that. I’m happy to take that burden off you and do that for you. I have to look out for you, et cetera, et cetera. So that it can often be disguised in these ways. And they’re very good at putting blame on the victim survivor, saying things like, “Well, I wouldn’t have reacted that way if you hadn’t been so dah, dah. dah.” So it’s always turning around and blaming the other person. They can never take proper accountability for what they’ve done. They can never just say, yes, that was my fault, and then shut up. Post-separation, they’re just on this mission to punish you as much as possible. For daring to have the strength and bravery to break free of them. Their sense of entitlement cannot bear that you’ve broken free of them. So they’re just on a mission to punish you post-separation. And they just wanna keep up that ability to punish you for as long as they can. And it’s horrific post-separation for victim survivors, because they’ve done what society now tells victim survivors to do and separated. What if the perpetrator won’t leave you alone Dr. Katz: That didn’t used to be the advice. The advice used to be stay in your marriage at all costs, and don’t you dare break up your family. Now, we tend to say, most of us, to victim survivors, the way to go is to separate. But then what if you do that and the perpetrator will not leave you alone? And they won’t leave you alone for five years, for 10 years, 15 years, and so on. We, as a society, have not grappled with that yet. We don’t want to grapple with it. And we don’t want to do anything to inconvenience our predominantly male perpetrators. Because if society wanted to inconvenience them, we would see that happening. We would see a much stronger response to what they do. But we see very little response to what they do. Victim survivors have a terrible difficulty getting any kind of response from the authorities post separation abuse. So it’s enormously difficult to endure and survive. Anne: It’s very interesting, because in some ways it looks like the same to an outsider. For example, many women who come on this podcast share their stories, including me. We wanted that reasonableness. And so insisting on it, or even fighting for it, not physically, but with a verbal, “Hey, we need to do this.” “It might seem to an outsider like we’re haranguing them or refusing to give up, the way coercive control is often misunderstood, and that’s how when he says I’m controlling, but I’m not, it looks reasonable to people who don’t understand what is happening. Abusers are always doing something for a reason Anne: But if the situation is inherently unfair, and if this situation is inherently nonsensical. And she’s trying to make sense of it, and she won’t let go of equality, fairness, or logic. And he wants her to let go of that, so he says I’m controlling but I’m not. From the outside, it looks like the same or almost exactly the same. And people cannot tell the difference. And I like to have people consider what is the aim of it. Like for example, exploitation. Many of these men just don’t want to pay child support, for example. And so because they don’t wanna pay child support, but they can’t technically do that. They’re like, well if I have to pay child support, then I’m going to make it as miserable as possible for her. And maybe someday she’ll just give up and not ask me for child support anymore. No one’s gonna say to the victim, “Hey, maybe let go of the child support.” Because she needs that money. And she’s also legally entitled to it. But he does not think that she is. And so there’s one thing to consider as victims in this scenario is what is their real intent. They’re making your life a living hell, because they don’t want to do something. They don’t wanna pay child support, they don’t wanna pay alimony, they don’t want their son to play baseball, because if their son plays baseball once a week or twice a week, they have to sit and watch this game that they don’t enjoy watching. And they would rather undermine it and tell him, you’re bad at baseball, baseball’s bad for you. Dr. Katz: Yeah, abusers are highly functional in what they’re doing. They’re always doing it for a reason. Lying is central for perpetrators: he says i’m controlling but i’m not Anne: Yeah, and usually the way they do it is through lies. Rather than saying to the kid or the mom or whoever, I don’t enjoy watching my kids’ baseball games, so I’m not going to go. But yeah, shine on, do whatever. They lie and say, baseball’s not good for you. You don’t really wanna play baseball. Your mom is coercing you to play baseball. It’s all this other stuff. I always come back to the lying is the real problem. Because if they told the truth, I don’t want to pay child support, and if I have to, I’m going to wreak havoc on you. Then if they said that in court, then everyone would be like, okay. Dr. Katz: Absolutely right. Yeah. Anne: It’s the lies that are the problem, all the abuse is the problem too. But they just wouldn’t get very far in their abuse if they did not lie. Dr. Katz: You’re so right. They would not get far in their abuse if they did not lie. And lying is so central to what they do. I think we don’t talk enough about how perpetrators are, as you say, tremendous liars. They just lie all the time, and they construct a narrative based on lies, distortions, and twisting things. And in this narrative, they’re a good person, and they’re doing nothing wrong. Everyone else is crazy, unreasonable, and horrible to them. And as you say, they’re not admitting to what they’re doing. Imagine, people say, “Oh, you picked the wrong guy.” But imagine if they stood up on a first date and said, “My intention is to hollow you out, to enrich myself at your expense. When He says I’m controlling but I’m not: D.A.R.V.O. explained in real life Dr. Katz: So after 10 years with me, you would be very poor and have few economic assets, and I would be much richer and would’ve siphoned off your assets. That should been yours. Anne: Right, exploited you. Dr. Katz: Yeah, I’m going to exploit you for 10 years, yeah. I’m going to expect far more with you than I’m willing to give myself. My plan is to ensure that you never have a strong relationship with your children, because that would make you too happy, and I don’t want to see that. So if we have children together, I’m going to make sure to sabotage your relationship with your children as often as possible. Imagine if they made that speech on the first date, and that is their intention, and they’ve probably done it before. Then obviously everyone would get up and run for the hills, but they lie and disguise. So lying is so central to what they do. And also, we see this use of DARVO. So hopefully most of your listeners are familiar with this concept of DARVO: deny, attack, reverse victim and offender, D-A-R-V-O. Again, this lying is central to DARVO. The perpetrator will deny that they were abusive. Say, “Oh, I never did that.” Or, “I only did that because I was provoked.” And then they’ll turn around and try and attack the victim’s character so that people won’t find them credible anymore. And very often that’s along the lines of, she’s crazy. She’s my crazy, psycho ex. They attack the credibility of the victim Dr. Katz: She’s unreasonable. She’s got a mental health disorder. They’ll throw around all these sort of mental health labels. Like she’s got narcissistic personality disorder, bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder, et cetera. Even though she wouldn’t have been diagnosed with any of these things. And oh, she’s mean, she’s a really nasty person. Everyone hates her, etc. So they attack the credibility of the victim. So that people won’t take them seriously, won’t believe them, will have major doubts in their minds about their believability. And then they try and reverse victim and offender. So, I’m not the bad guy here, but she is. She’s the one who’s actually been horrible to me for all these years. And then a big long list of twists and distortions of things, or just outright lies of things that they think the victim survivor’s done. Meanwhile, constantly playing down what they’ve done. So by the time people hear all this DARVO narrative from perpetrators. Some people can see through it, but most of the time people don’t know what to believe, and they don’t know how to unpick all this. And what people usually do in response to DARVO is think, that sounds messy. It sounds like they were both horrible. So I’m just not going to get involved, and I’m not going to stand up for this victim survivor, and I’m not going to stand against this perpetrator. Because I can’t even tell who’s right and who’s wrong. So I’m just gonna walk away. And then when people do that, they leave the perpetrator with all the power. The victim has no one to support her Dr. Katz: And the victim survivor, with no one supporting them. And that power imbalance between them that the perpetrator’s been so clever as to build up over the years, there’s no one there challenging that. Because everyone’s been put off from getting involved by the DARVO. So that can often be the case. That can often be what ends up happening. It’s devastating to people. So one message I would always give people is to try and educate those around them on DARVO tactics. So when it happens, people will be more able to see through it. . But I think if we all have more awareness of how common DARVO tactics are, then they’ll be a little bit less effective. Anne: Yeah, one thing I try to do here at BTR and through our services is give women confidence. So often when women sense something’s wrong. But they don’t know that he’s lying, and no one else does either. They don’t recognize they’re a victim of his emotional and psychological abuse. No one else does, either. They may go to a couple therapist, or often sex addiction or pornography addiction recovery. That makes things even more complex and they get blamed even more. And they’re going because they need help. Most of the time it’s the victims who set these appointments. It’s women who wanna know what’s going on? How can I fix this? I would love for everyone listening to know that you know enough in your own heart and in your own mind, and it’s great to get validation. And hopefully you can get it from this podcast and from Dr. Katz and all the other wonderful domestic abuse advocates out there and feel that. Couple therapists or addiction therapists can’t identify the abuse: he says i’m controlling but i’m not Anne: If you don’t know what’s going on, and go to a couple therapist or addiction therapist or some program, like a marriage intensive. They will not identify this for you. And rather than confirming what you already know, what you sense. The gaslighting that’s going to occur, and the DARVO will start to knock down your sense of confidence. And he keeps you in the dark longer when he says I’m controlling, but I’m not. Dr. Katz: That’s so true. I wrote one of my Substack articles in February about how family therapy and coercive control is a match made in hell. And I would also say couples counseling, and anything like that. Because most therapists have had very little or indeed no training on coercive control as part of their degree they took in psychology. Or any kind of qualifications they did to enable them to practice counseling or psychology or whatever it’s that they’re doing. So it’s unlikely they have any knowledge of coercive control. And if they do, it may not be sufficient knowledge. It may not be from good sources. So they might think they know something about it, but what they know is maybe old fashioned stuff, maybe quite victim blaming. It’s just not good information to base practice upon in the current day. So yes, if you go to somebody wearing the hat of a professional, but they know nothing about coercive control. They can’t recognize it, can’t see that it’s happening right there in their office. They don’t have the training necessary to make sense of what they’re seeing. Then yes, that’s just going to leave the victim survivor thinking they were wrong to ever think this was a serious and abusive situation that their perpetrator was subjecting them to. The premise of couple therapy is that both partners contribute to the problems in the relationship Dr. Katz: They’re just gonna walk out thinking, it sounds like maybe I’m to blame and maybe I can fix this. Maybe I need to compromise more, sacrifice more, and try harder. Because that’s what the therapist probably will be set up to suggest. So, couples therapists are not there to deal with abuse. They shouldn’t be seeing people where one person’s abusing the other. They really shouldn’t be doing that. The whole premise of couples therapy is that both partners contribute to the problems in the relationship, and also that both partners are willing to deal with the problems. And that they both want to get to a healthier place, so it is not set up for coercive control situations at all. And the same with family therapy. The idea of family therapy is that everyone who’s going to that is contributing to the problem and everyone has a sort of genuine good intention to try and sort it out. And when you have an abuse perpetrator, that is not the case whatsoever. Anne: No, and if they’re lying they’ll go to couple therapy and they will say they are there because they want to improve the situation. Again, if they went in and said, “There’s no way I’m gonna change my tactics. I’m a liar and it works really good and I can exploit her all the time.” It doesn’t matter what proof you have. It doesn’t matter if you’ve got some checklist and you’re like, look at all these things on the checklist, you’re doing all these. They never will do that because they are inherently a liar. Couple therapy with an abuser can keep you stuck Anne: So in that session, they’re like, of course I’m here. Of course I wanna make this better, of course I’ll compromise. I will do this and this, and then I really need her to do this, this and this. And he says I’m controlling, but I’m not. He’s never gonna do the thing he just said he is gonna do, but the therapist is like, wow, he really wants to be here. He cares about his marriage. He wants to make this work. They don’t have the frame of reference to understand that he is literally lying to her and the therapist. So, it’s a very dangerous situation when she also does not know. Luckily, I’ve had a few people tell me they listened to my podcast. They weren’t sure, but in the back of their mind they were thinking, “Okay, He says I’m controlling but I’m not. And she said it’s bad, but I don’t really know.” Thank goodness, because they had that heads up, they could see what was going on. Whereas other women who don’t know what’s happening and the therapist doesn’t know what’s happening. Sometimes get stuck in that gaslighting world for five years, 10 years, 20 years of this type of couple therapy, until they realize he’s been lying the entire time. Dr. Katz: That’s so true. I think that going to therapy with your abuser can keep you stuck for another five or 10 years. It can be devastating. It may keep you stuck forever. You may never recover from it. Hopefully, that’s infrequently the case. But for some people, we know they never escape. And they’re with that perpetrator till the day they die. women are profoundly impacted by coercive control: he says i’m controlling but i’m not Anne: Yeah, and I think a lot of times it’s ’cause they don’t know. I wanna credit all women for doing that, because they believe couple therapy will improve it, because everybody says that. It’s common advice. So they’re trying to get help. They are trying to improve their situation. They’re not dumb, they’re smart. That’s what a smart person does. A smart person knows they’re in over their head, and a smart person goes for help. The problem is that they don’t say I am an abuse victim, ’cause they don’t know. The therapist also does not identify it, and that is not the victim’s fault. Dr. Katz: Especially if the perpetrator’s clever to never be physically violent. Most perpetrators are intimidating. They shout in your face, they glare at you. They might kick the furniture, they might throw objects around, but not actually at you. But they send you the message, you better cooperate with me, or else next time I’ll be kicking you, not this sofa. But if they don’t actually cross the line into attacking you, then a lot of women are uncomfortable labeling that abuse. Because we’ve been taught for so long that abuse is violence, black eyes, broken bones. And abuse needs that physical element to be real. And that’s not the case at all. We see that women are just as profoundly impacted by non-physical coercive control. That is really severe, and limits their life to a great extent. We’re seeing these women with the same kinds of distress and trauma as those who’ve been physically hurt. Women do their best with the information they have Dr. Katz: So it’s as you say, women who are going through this, I would never ever say they were dumb. On the contrary, they’re smart. They’re doing the best they can with the knowledge they have and the pieces of the puzzle they can see. They’re not a mind reader. They can’t tell what their perpetrator is actually thinking. So they do their best with the information they have. Meanwhile, he says I’m controlling but I’m not. I’m adamant that victim survivors are simply ordinary people who had the misfortune to meet a perpetrator and maybe to meet more than one perpetrator, because for lots of people, this happens more than once in their lifetime. And that’s not because there was something wrong with them, but just because there are an extraordinarily high number of abusers out there. Our society is frankly flooded with them. For example, one in five men in America admits physically attacking their partner or wife. Research and surveys have found that one third of college men would have sex with a woman against her will if nobody found out, and there wouldn’t be any consequences for them. So that’s one third of our college men who say yes. They would actually be happy to rape a woman if they could get away with it. One third of college men would coerce women Dr. Katz: Researchers didn’t use the word rape, because that’s a very particular word that makes people have a very particular reaction. But they said sex against a woman’s will, which is rape. And a third of them said, yes, they’d be happy to do that if they could get away with it. if you’ve had the misfortune to be in a marriage with one, that’s not because there was something particularly wrong with you. You were just an ordinary person who had the misfortune to meet one of these abusers. Anne: Yeah, in my opinion, lying is the most common type of sexual coercion. They know that if they said, “I’m gonna take you on this date, I’m gonna fake I like everything you like, I’m gonna look you in the eyes. I’m gonna give you compliments. I only want to have sex with you, and then I never wanna see you again.” Then when he gets “consent.” She says yes to sex under the guise of him actually liking her. That is sexual coercion. She never hears from him again, and it’s like that was confusing. We hit it off. He seemed to like me. We had everything in common. I would submit that in many of those cases it was that he was just mirroring, grooming, lying to get you to say yes. Thinking the yes means it’s okay. If you say yes, then win-win, right? It’s what everybody wanted. It’s not wrong if she says yes, kind of an idea. And it’s very wrong, and it’s sexual coercion, which is rape, essentially. Dr. Katz: Yes, there are all sorts of circumstances in which people can say yes, and it’s valid or invalid. When someone is lying to you it’s not a valid yes: he says i’m controlling but i’m not Dr. Katz: So, if you’re saying yes, because you have the genuine information about what’s going on, and you’re saying yes of your own free will because you are enthusiastic about what’s gonna happen. And if you’re gonna participate in that with enthusiasm, then that’s a valid yes. But if you don’t have all the information, if someone’s lying to you and deceiving you, and so you’re actually acting on false information with your, “Yes.” Your yes is coming from a place where you don’t understand the full picture of what’s going on, then I don’t think that’s a valid yes. Anne: No matter how enthusiastic she is. Because she might be extremely enthusiastic based on his lies. But that doesn’t mean anything. Dr. Katz: No, like you say, it needs to be based on correct, truthful information to be valid. We might be enthusiastic about signing a contract for a new phone, because we think we know what this contract says. But if we actually read the contract and found it was full of lies, something very different’s gonna happen. And we’re going to be robbed of our money, given a bad deal, and ripped off for this phone. Then obviously, our enthusiasm would not have been there had we known that. Anne: Right. Dr. Katz: And also, to give a valid yes, you need to be comfortable to say no. If you’re scared of saying no, that’s coercive Dr. Katz: If you’re in any way scared of saying no. If saying no will lead to hours and hours of sulking, guilt tripping, pushing, asking you over and over again, trying to turn your no into a yes. Then if it’s in those sorts of circumstances, you don’t have the option to say no easily. So a lot of the time people will say yes, because they know that saying no is too hard. There’s too much pushback. So they say yes. But if they really had a free choice, they wouldn’t be saying yes. And for me, the yes is invalid, because you didn’t have the proper choice. Similarly with sexual coercion, if you really wanted to say no, but you couldn’t because the pushback would be so bad, then it’s not a proper yes. And then it is rape, or sexual assault, depending on what then happens. I think that’s a tough conversation. Anne: Yeah, I think there’s another element to this, which is how abusers gaslight victims & advocates. That is, maybe even if he’s not pressuring her, if she thinks it’s my duty as a wife to have sex. It’s often maybe a faith that might tell her, “You need to submit to your husband’s sexual desires.” Or maybe someone who’s like, “If he doesn’t have sex regularly, he’ll maybe go have an affair.” Or, “He’ll have sex with someone else.” Or something like that. So even if he’s pressing her and he says I’m controlling, but I’m not. If she has absorbed some of that societal or religious gaslighting, she is 100% not coercing herself. That is absolutely not what I’m saying. If he chooses to have an affair, that has nothing to do with you saying no Anne: But hear those voices in her own head, not realizing they’re not her own voice. Not realizing it is from this religious or societal scripting, and not realizing that is just not true. Even if he’s not pressing her to do it, if she has absorbed some of that societal or religious gaslighting, she is 100% not coercing herself. That is absolutely not what I’m saying. But hear those voices in her own head, not realizing they’re not her own voice. Not realizing it is from this religious or societal scripting, and not realizing that is just not true. If you don’t wanna have sex for any reason, it doesn’t even matter. If he chooses to use porn or have an affair, that literally has nothing to do with you saying no, because you didn’t wanna have sex. But this, it’s your fault that he did this thing that hurt you when you said no. So many women in our community are told like, “Well, what did you think was gonna happen if you didn’t wanna have sex with him? Of course, he was gonna go use porn or solicit a prostitute or have an affair or whatever.” Not realizing that what he does is his choice completely independently. This doesn’t happen that often. ‘Cause I, I don’t interact with single men very much, but if I do and they say something like, “Oh, my ex-wife, she was just frigid and she wouldn’t give me sex.” I always say, “Oh, I am so glad. That’s great. ‘Cause women should never have sex when they don’t want to.I’m glad you were married to such an awesome person.” he says i’m controlling but i’m not: I’m the terrible person when I refuse Anne: And they literally have no idea what to say. They’re like, I don’t even know how to react. Dr. Katz: That’s awesome. I wish I could be there to see that when they react that way. Because I think this is a related point. Which is, what is wrong with men who are having sex with women who are not enthusiastic about what’s happening? That is so disgusting. Why would you want to be intimate with another person’s body in that way? When they’re just lying there and thinking when it’s going to be over. You know that even if they’re putting up an act to seem enthusiastic. But you just coerce that act out of them, because before you’ve complained, they’re just lying there. So that you pressured them to give an appearance of enthusiasm. When you know they’re not enthusiastic genuinely. What is wrong with people who want to have sex under those circumstances? I will never understand that, and I find it so gross and awful. Anne: I remember telling my ex, ’cause sex with him was just miserable. And I told people about it, and that made me the terrible person, because I was like, “Yeah, sex with him stinks.” And that really hurt his feelings. And I was like, “It’s not that fun.” I didn’t realize what was going on. So I was kind of flippant about stuff. But I was very open about it. Do all of the reasons or excuses make sense? Anne: So just to skip ahead for a minute, when I realized it was abuse, no one took me seriously because I was so open about everything. They were like, “Well, you can’t be an abuse victim because you’re not mousy or quiet or anything.” But I told him once, “Do you think I could just read a book? Do you think I could maybe prop it open and you could be having sex, but I could be reading.” And I was a little bit joking, but not really. And instead of being like, wow, what’s going on? I don’t remember what he said, but he didn’t respond in a way that made me feel like he really would care that much if I was reading. And I think that’s the point you’re getting at. Is like what? Like that is so crazy. The conversations that women in this situation have. Whether it be about sex or about him yelling or weeding or whatever. You think about the conversations and if women are still in it and maybe they’re going to couple therapy. Maybe someone is saying, “Well, let’s get to the heart of his childhood trauma.” And maybe why he said this or something. But if you can take just one step back or have a little bit of an objective point of view and realize like, this is crazy pants. Anyway, thinking about that, it’s important as women listen to think, wait a minute. All these reasons or excuses, do they even make sense when he says I’m controlling but I’m not? Dr. Katz: It’s so hard to see it when you’re in proximity. Perspective from depersonalizing the situation Dr. Katz: Maybe something that might be helpful is to imagine this conversation among hypothetical friends you might make up in your head. And run this conversation. My hypothetical friends who are married, they had this conversation that mirrored the conversation I’ve just had with my partner or husband. What would I make of this if this was happening to other people? What would that mean if somebody said this? So, what does that say about them as a person, where they’re at, and what their mental state is? And if someone else says this, how would I understand that if it was not me, but someone else? And just to try and take that kind of, like you say, that step back, depersonalize it a little bit, that can be useful. I think I’ll reiterate that. The people being abused have done nothing wrong. And I don’t think there’s anything abnormal about them. Sometimes we hear the most appallingly victim blaming things, even from people who say, “Oh, I’m not victim blaming.” And he says I’m controlling but I’m not. People say you need to take accountability for your part in the abuse. No, you don’t. You were looking for a normal, healthy, loving relationship, and you got served a load of lies and loads of abuse. And nothing to do with you. It’s not your fault, you don’t need to take accountability for any of that. Human nature binds us. So for most of us, we’re bound by the messages that we get from our society. women are encouraged by society to be kind: he says i’m controlling but i’m not Dr. Katz: It will take us a long time to figure out that we’re being abused because we don’t want to think that’s happening to us. We don’t want to think that particular script is suddenly running in our lives. We don’t want to reinterpret a situation that we thought we understood through the lens of, well, maybe this is abuse, because that’s tough. Most people, understandably, don’t want to do that. So it takes people a long time to get to that place. That’s human nature, and that’s the way our society is set up. People are not encouraged to make that assumption quickly, “Oh, this is abuse.” They’re encouraged to be kind and considerate, to have empathy even if your husband has no empathy, and to be self-sacrificing, and to try and make things work. Especially women are encouraged to be like that, and there’s nothing to be ashamed of or to blame yourself for if it took a long time to get to that place. You’re not alone, because that’s what happens to pretty much everyone. I just think people say things like, “Oh, you must have attracted the abuser into your life,” or “you teach people how to treat you.” Or he says I’m controlling, but I’m not. And I think those things are horribly victim blaming statements. And I reject them completely. I think that, as I say, we’re all doing our best here in a society that is pretty much flooded with abusive people. There are far too many of them. They’re not one in a hundred, they’re perhaps one in two, one in three, one in four. There are many abusive people out there, especially unfortunately, men willing to be abusive to women. Obviously, it can happen the other way around, but coercive control is a male dominated crime. Coercive control is a crime in the UK Dr. Katz: I’m speaking to you from the UK, where we have made coercive control a crime. I think that is the case in a handful of American states and a couple of Australian states. It’s patchy, in a lot of places it’s not a crime yet. But I see it as a crime. I just wanna say all that. I think victims and survivors really deserve so much more credit than they’re given. Like you say, people are often very negative about victim survivors. Actually, you’re just a completely ordinary person who’s had to survive something really horrific. And anyone who survived that I think is doing amazing. Even if you’re only hanging on by your fingernails, even if you feel like you’re only surviving by a very thin margin, the fact that you are still surviving in any circumstances in my book means you are awesome. Anne: Well, thank you so much, Dr. Katz. I really appreciate your work, and it’s so wonderful to meet another woman in this fight to protect victims and help them when he says I’m controlling but I’m not. So thank you so much. Dr. Katz: Ah, well, thanks so much for having me on. It’s a pleasure. Thank you.
• How ‘Prayer For My Husband’ Became the New Gaslighting 07.04.2026 54Min.

  You’re not wrong for wanting things to be better. If you’re searching for a ‘prayer for my husband’ because you’ve been told that if you have enough faith, you can change him, you’re not alone. But here’s what most people don’t tell you… 5 THINGS TO CONSIDER AS YOU FIND A ‘PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND’ TO HELP HIM CHANGE 1. You’re Faith is Enough There’s something many faithful women are never told.The problem isn’t your faith. The problem is how your strong and incredible faith is being used, by people or systems, to confuse you instead of help you feel the love God has for you. 2. Prayer is Always Good, and God Loves YOUGod hears your prayers. He wants YOU to be emotionally safe and have a peaceful home. He may be leading you to see that this might not be possible if your husband is lying and refusing to follow the principles if he’s only pretending to believe. 3. The Harmful Message Behind “Pray Harder”When spiritual leaders or loved ones say, “Just have more faith” or “You’re not a victim, you’re a co-creator”, it’s spiritual bypass. It minimizes real harm and leaves you powerless. The interview below will cover why this is so harmful. 4. You’re allowed to be angry.Your anger about your husband’s mistreatment of you isn’t a lack of faith. It’s likely God’s way of warning you of danger. 5. God Hasn’t Abandoned YouIf you feel like God isn’t answering your prayers for your husband to change, it might be because your husband doesn’t want to change, but he’s lying to you about it. That means he’s lying to God too. Your husband may be blocking you from feeling God’s love for YOU. If you have heard this kind of messaging and need help getting out of the fog, my workshop will help you determine if you’re husband is lying about his faith in God to keep you from knowing his true intentions. “The More I Pray The Worse My Husband Gets” For many women, it might feel like “the more I pray the worse my husband gets.” If you’re feeling this way, here are 8 things to consider. 1. If Your Prayers Aren’t Being Answered, Maybe They ARE Being Answered In the silent moments of prayer, many victims of emotional abuse question, “Does God even care about me?” or “Why won’t He answer my prayers?” It’s a painful place to be, feeling as if divine help is just out of reach. However, expressing raw, honest emotions through prayer, including anger, can be a powerful way to stay spiritually connected and grounded in your reality. If you’re husband is getting worse, consider that perhaps God is SHOWING you your husband’s true character. Perhaps God wants you to see who your husband really is, so you can make decisions that will lead to your emotional safety. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop teaches women strategies to SEE the truth of her husband’s character. 2. Telling a Victim of Emotional Abuse That Prayer Alone Can Change Her Husband is Victim Blaming Victims often hear clergy or friends say things that aren’t helpful. Telling a victim of abuse that prayer can change her abuser, is so wrong, that’s why it’s so important to recognize victim blaming. If a victim hears this, she may feel like it’s her fault she’s emotionally abused by her husband. Nothing is farther from the truth. Consider that God may be trying to tell you that there’s nothing you can do about his character if you’re praying and feeling like God isn’t answering. 3. God Doesn’t Want You to Reconcile With Wickedness Reconciliation with an emotionally abusive person isn’t safe for you emotionally. Throughout scriputure, God continually asks the righteous to separate themselves from wickedness. If you feel like, “the more I pray, the worse my husband gets,” consider studying these concepts in scripture: deliverance, separation from wickedness, and departing from wickedness. What do the scriptures say the righteous should do when they encounter evil? 4. Praying The You Can Forgive Might Mean Something Different Than You Think In the scriptures, there are multiple times where the word forgiveness is paired with the concept of debt. Matthew 6:12 –forgive your debtors. If your husband owes you fidelity, love, and loyalty, what happens if you forgive him of that debt to you? That would enable you to move away from him (not closer). Consider the debt your husband owes you, and how forgiving him of any debt will help you create distance between yourself and the harm he causes in your life. 5. Try Praying For Yourself Shift the focus of your prayers from your husband to yourself. Ask for strength, courage, and clarity. This self-focused prayer can empower you to make decisions that are right for you and your children. We’ve also been commanded to pray for our enemies and those who despitefully use us, but scriptures admonishing us to do that don’t ask us to be in proximity to our enemies or subject ourselves to those who despitefully use us. 6. Pray For Emotional Safety Pray for the emotional safety. To be emotionally safe means to exist in an environment where one feels supported, understood, and accepted without fear. If someone is lying to you, it’s not an emotionally safe situation. Trust and respect are necessary for emotional safety. If your husband lies to you, consider how limiting your exposure to his lies could help you. 7. Pray To Be Shown Correct and True Information Many women who are being emotionally abused by their husband are unaware of what’s going on because they haven’t been educated about abuse. To paraphrase Hosea 4:6 – My daughters are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Clergy and therapists are sadly not aware of how to assess for emotional abuse and genenrally give bad counsel to women with emotionally abusive husbands. The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast is a great way to learn about what an emotionally abusive husband looks and sounds like, so you have the right information. 8. Pray to Be Led To The Right Support Feeling abandoned by God can make life seem impossibly dark. It’s easy to feel as though the suffering will never end. You’re not alone. His emotional abuse has isolated you, but reaching out for support can bring light back into your life. Seeking support is vital for healing. Pray for guidance to find the right people and resources that can help you on your journey. Whether it’s a support group, therapist, or community resource, the right support can make all the difference. Our online support group for victims of betrayal meet daily in every single time zone to provide the community, validation, and compassion that victims need. You deserve peace. That’s why the Savior came – to deliver us from evil and bring us peace. Transcript: When Praying For My Husband Isn’t Working Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s podcast. Her name is Tracy, and she is a passionate advocate for betrayed wives. Discovering her husband’s addiction set her on a course of education about betrayal trauma, abuse, spirituality, and healing. Tracy is a devoted mother of four children, a compassionate friend, and an avid runner. Mountains and lakes are her happy place. Mountains and lakes are also my happy place, so we have that in common. We’re going to start by talking about spiritual bypass. One of the most common ways it shows up is when abusers—sometimes supported by clergy or even therapists—frame the solution as simply offering prayer for my husband to change. That’s why there are so many effects of spiritual abuse as well. PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND WHEN I DIDN’T KNOW WHAT ELSE TO DO Tracy: Absolutely. I’ll just give an example for myself. So my first D-Day was a month after I married. It was very traumatic, very, very traumatic. I didn’t know that I was in trauma. I didn’t know anything about trauma. There was so much I didn’t know. I didn’t have any support system or any real education. So basically, all I knew was that I was in so much pain, in such a place of darkness. The only way out, it took me two or three days, I don’t remember. Truly being in this dark, dark pit before I realized the only way out was God. And so I went to God in prayer and said, I cannot keep feeling this. I felt like it was going to kill me. Thinking, “I need to forgive my husband, but don’t know how to forgive him?” I am incapable of forgiving him, but I want to forgive him. And I know you can help me immediately. The darkness lifts, and I fill up with incredible comfort, warmth and peace. Now, I wasn’t healed from trauma. Of course, I didn’t understand trauma or what it meant to thoroughly heal from trauma. Understanding HOW Prayer for My Husband BECAME SPIRITUAL BYPASSING Tracy: Here’s where prayer for my husband got tricky. While it worked for me at that time and helped me, ultimately it became a form of spiritual bypassing and it kept me stuck in the trauma. It didn’t help me to better understand it or to come to a better understanding of my situation. I want to compare that now to my second D-Day, about 15 years in. I found out that this was going on my entire marriage regularly. That obviously my husband had been lying constantly about it, and hiding it. Then all those pieces start to fit together. That explains so much of my experience in this marriage that I did not understand. That happened on a Sunday night, I still remember it late at night. We were in bed talking. And as he began to disclose the reality, my situation started to descend upon me, as I came to terms with that. I didn’t sleep that night. I think I fell asleep at 6 a.m. and slept for one hour. And I said, I will not do this again. Because I realized I’d only been through one big cycle of this. I could see that handling it the way I did the first time wasn’t going to cut it. All that was going to do was set me up for more D-Days, and more D-Days, and more D-Days. And so my whole approach to healing was different than that first time. This was not going to be an event or an arrival. This was going to be a long process. I was going to let myself feel angry for as long as I needed to feel angry. WHAT I LEARNED ABOUT Prayer for My Husband: the Second D-Day Reality Check Tracy: You know, it’s interesting because I felt more betrayed by God after the first D-Day than the second. I don’t know what it was, but something after that second D Day, I instinctively knew some truths right away. And one of them was that this isn’t God. God did not betray me here. My husband did. And I realized that many things started fitting into place quickly. One of those was God was there for me all along. The lesson I learned was actually good and true. From the first experience, God is real. He was warning me. After that first D-day, prayer for my husband became a constant in my life. I would pray to know if my husband was honest with me or if my husband’s lying to me. And I always thought that since I could never find evidence, or my husband would never admit anything, I guess that meant he was telling me the truth because God wasn’t putting something in my lap, right? THE IMPACT OF DECEPTION ON MY RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD Tracy: Like throwing the evidence out in front of me. But in reality, I knew in my gut that something was wrong for years. And I knew after that second D-day, God was talking to me all along. It’s not God’s fault. It’s my husband’s fault. My husband interfered with my relationship with God. I was a spiritual person before I married. I came to my spirituality as a kid. And strengthened it as a youth and that was always a strong point for me. It was strange for me that after I married my spirituality started to decline. And I started to feel more distant from God. And I couldn’t figure out why. Because I was doing all of the same things I’d always done. My heart turned towards God. I wanted that relationship, but I couldn’t figure out why I was feeling so distant. And I would come up with reasons. Well, maybe it’s because I’ve had kids now and I don’t have the time to pray the same way I used to. I don’t have the time to spend as much time in the scriptures as I used to. So I guess I’m not prioritizing right. Because motherhood is difficult, but that wasn’t the reason. Prayer for MY Husband BEFORE MARRIAGE: When Something FeLT Off Tracy: I was careful and cautious about marrying, and I was very prayerful about it. I studied the subject and ultimately I decided, okay, I love this guy. No, I’ve got to take a leap of faith. So, you know, I said, yes. Well, I started to feel uneasy during our engagement, like something was off. There were various things that happened in a relatively short period during our engagement. That really moved me to confront my husband and ask if he had ever had any issues with pornography. She was also feeling kind of uneasy. We were like, is this normal? Is this just like engagement jitters? But we didn’t want to be like that crazy girl who likes to give back the ring, right? And changes her mind and goes back and forth. And so we made a pact with each other, me and my friend. That if we started to feel that uneasiness, we wouldn’t act on it unless it stayed with us for more than 24 hours. Because it might just come and go, the butterflies. I also prayed about that. I said to God, I understand that this might be normal feelings of anxiety, so I’m not going to take them seriously unless they stay with me for more than 24 hours. At one point, they did stay with me more than 24 hours. But still, I didn’t have any reason why something should be off. I didn’t have anything specific to point to. And he looked me in the eye and he said, no, never. And I may have asked one follow up question. He maintained, no, never. I didn’t push it. I just accepted his answer, but I still had these feelings of uneasiness. My best friend, at the time, was also engaged. When Others’ Advice Overrides Intuition and Prayer for my Husband Tracy: So I went to my Dad, who I love and is a wonderful, wonderful man, full of lots of goodness and wisdom. But, he basically just talked me out of my feelings. And he convinced me that I was being silly and too emotional. He said, “Your fiance is a great guy.” He’s got great career ambitions. He’s going to take good care of you. And he loves you. There’s no reason not to marry him. Spiritual bypass again. After, I found out a month into marriage. Which, the way I found out, is because my husband lost his job. He was caught using it at work. It was awful. But I did briefly feel betrayed by God. I was like, I prayed about this, I asked about this. But again, through spiritual bypass, I let go of all those feelings. Well, after my second D-Day, 15 years in, when I tried to put all the pieces back together and make sense of it. I realized God answered my prayer for my husband. Trusting God When THE Answers TO PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND ChangeD Tracy: I knew in my gut that something was off. I can trust my gut. And I can trust God. I realize my husband is the one lying to me. My Dad talked me out of my feelings when I went to him, saying I feel like something is off. I’m nervous. I’ve never had to work through a intense or long lasting feeling of betrayal by God. I’ve realized he’s been with me. It’s people getting in the way. I want to add one quick thing I would encourage women to consider is that sometimes we may get an answer, right? Maybe, this was not my experience. I did not get a definitive, yes, marry this guy. That was not my experience in prayer for my husband. But some women I have talked to say they have had that experience. And so they feel betrayed when they find out. That’s understandable. Like, sometimes we can get an answer to something, but that doesn’t mean it’s necessarily the answer for the rest of our lives. Things can change. People can still make choices that change circumstances. I like to think about life as not something totally planned out. Where God is pulling these puppet strings. But rather, those change-your-ending books. Endings CAN Change & God Doesn’t Want Abuse Tracy: I don’t know if you ever had any of those. But you would start to read the story, and then there was a choice that you would have to make. Then depending on that choice, you would skip to a certain point in the book. And then you’d come to another choice. So depending on the choices made, the ending of the story would change. I can pray about something and get an answer that is good for me right now. But tomorrow, my husband can make a choice that changes circumstances, and the answer to prayer for my husband may change. Does that make sense? Anne: It does. Because many women think back to the answer to their prayers and think, but I’m supposed to be with him. Instead of saying, I need to set this boundary, because I’m not safe. They think God wants me to be tolerate abuse. God never wants you to be abused, ever. So if you’re trying to sort that out. I’m telling you here, that God does not want you to be abused regardless of what answers you had from prayers in the past. Anne: For me, I never asked whether I should marry my ex-husband. But I definitely felt like it was the logical right decision, which I made happily. And now looking back, I can see that my life’s work would not be possible without him. He introduced me to everything I needed to know, to run Betrayal Trauma Recovery and to continue to run BTR. So I’m actually super grateful for the experiences. Because I would never do what I do now without the experiences he gave me. Which were all horrific, but also now I have a PhD in evil. SPIRITUAL PERFORMANCE V. REAL CHANGE Anne: Let’s talk about how prayer for my husband is problematic when a man exhibiting abusive behaviors. Tracy: So my husband, leading up to that second big D-Day, threw himself into spirituality. He was becoming involved in our church community, very service oriented. And was reading the scriptures for like a certain amount of time every day. He was, on his commutes to work. He was listening to sermons and keeping track in his little calendar journal, of acting out points. And he convinced himself that this was all serving him well. Because he had longer periods of abstinence between acting out events than ever before in his life. He was going a whole two weeks between acting out, for a period of months. And he was convincing himself, because he was doing all these things, that he was progressing. But did they actually help him progress? No. He fooled himself into thinking he was making progress. But he still lived in lies, secrecy, and abusing me. See, he told himself, no, this is good. Because I will tell what’s been going on after I’ve like six months or a year of sobriety under my belt. And it will be this awesome thing, and she’ll be so excited for me. But the thing is, he was just spiritual bypassing me and keeping me stuck in abuse. PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND AND A False Sense Of Recovery Tracy: In about the period of one to two years post that second D-Day, He was doing all of the right things on paper for recovery. He’d done a formal disclosure. He had gone to a 12-step group, and was still going to it. He’d done the repentance process through our ecclesiastical leader. He was doing all of these right things, but that was just it. He thought that he was done. Like, that’s all taken care of, so can we just put a bow on it and lock it up in the closet and never talk about it again? So addicts can even use “working recovery” as a form of spiritual bypass. Where they convince themselves that they’re doing so great, but they’re really not. Anne: A lot of women are manipulated to ask, “Is he in recovery?” Because that answer can be manipulated to be yes with box checking. So victims are like, he’s in recovery because he goes to his weekly 12-step meeting and he’s going to therapy every week, but then you’re not safe yet. Instead of setting a boundary immediately and saying, okay, I need to get to safety now. And then watch from a safe distance to see if these abusive behaviors stop. I’m still in prayer for my husband and hoping that they’ll stop sometime in the future. Tracy: Yeah, when we’re in that terrible trauma and we just want relief. It’s easy to latch on to the idea of there’s a cure or a fix or a place of arrival. Well, once my husband gets to this place, like this many years of recovery or whatever, then we’ll be good. This really will be all behind us. WHEN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND IS USED TO DISMISS ACCOUNTABILITY Tracy: When I think about am I safe, it’s am I safe now? Am I safe to say, engage in this conversation? My question is not, am I safe to recommit to my husband that we’re going to be together forever, and divorce is never on the table? No, it’s am I safe right now to continue engaging in the relationship the way that I am right now? Anne: Yeah, that makes much more sense. Figuring out if you should stay together after infidelity isn’t necessarily the most important thing. So let’s talk about some other examples. A man exhibiting abusive behaviors may use to manipulate his victim, in terms of spiritual bypass. It might be, “I used the atonement, Jesus took away my sins. What, you don’t believe in Jesus?” They’re imposing what seems to be their devotion to their religious beliefs into prayer for my husband as a legitimate solution to abuse. In this case is simply taking the name of God in vain. Tracy: Well, that’s spiritual abuse. Why haven’t you forgiven yet? Can’t you move on? Why are you being so un-Christ like? I mean, it’s just straight up spiritual abuse. The day after my last D-Day, I was expressing how much pain I was in. He looked at me and said, I can’t tolerate this cruelty and walked away from me. Calling me cruel, suggesting that somehow I’m devoid of compassion, so I’m falling short of some spiritual standard. Me expressing my pain is actually a good healthy thing for me to be doing. It doesn’t mean I’m not compassionate. WHEN SPIRITUAL LEADERS’ ADVICE EnabLES Abuse Tracy: And this can happen with ecclesiastical leaders as well, both for the abuser and the victim. Bishops or pastors who tell men, well, you just need to pray this away. And they tell wives to pray harder. Or you need to immerse yourself in the scriptures, and then that will give you strength to overcome this. Like, why haven’t you forgiven yet? You just need to forgive. Anne: As if the forgiveness is the problem rather than the ongoing abuse. Tracy: And that’s why we need to separate ourselves to a degree or to several degrees. To get a level of safety, but asking someone who is literally living in abuse. And being currently and continually harmed to just forgive as if that’s going to make them not be affected by the abuse. FORMS OF VICTIM BLAMING IN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND Tracy: New Age teachings can go wrong too. It’s the same teaching. What you just said, the way we create our own reality, is a form of victim blaming. There is the teaching that everything I feel or experience originates with my own thoughts, so that I am creating my feelings with my thoughts and prayer for my husband. That nothing is happening to us from the outside. That can be very victim blaming, and victim blaming is very dangerous because that will make it more difficult for them to find safety and heal. So these are some common things you might hear. It happened for a reason. Nobody can hurt you without your consent. I wonder why you created this experience. It’s just your karma. There are no accidents, no victims. There are no mistakes. Don’t look back. What’s done is done. Don’t be a victim. Your feelings are an illusion. Be strong. Debunking THE MYTH “We Create Our Own Reality” THROUGH PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND Tracy: We create our own reality, so you shouldn’t do that. You should not write or think about something so negative, or else you will draw negative things into your life. The faulty thinking is that somehow if our belief is strong enough, if prayer for my husband is good enough, if our energy is high enough, like our vibration is high enough. Then we will only attract good things, and we can somehow avoid attracting negative things that will bring us down. That’s magical thinking, because we exist within these human systems. And these natural systems that we don’t have control over everything within those systems. We can have the most positive thoughts, be kind, and take all kinds of precautions for our safety, and still be deceived, or still be victimized in another way. Trauma symptoms are not the result of negative thoughts. New Age People think it happens like this. You have a negative thought, it leads to negative feelings and perceptions, which leads to bad things happening. But if I had been more skeptical and thought about negative potential consequences. It can help us do things within our power to help us stay safe. Anne: This would be like if you feel anger, that’s a negative emotion, so you’re going to draw more anger to you. An idea like that. Rather than realizing anger is a gift to us that can help us take action to keep us safe. Gratitude Is Not The Cure-All For Abuse: Understanding The Meaning Tracy: Absolutely. That’s at the core, recognizing we have great power within our humanity and within ourselves. There’s so much light within us, and if we tap into that, there’s so much empowerment there. And that’s great, but that we also have limitations. And so with spiritual bypass, like prayer for my husband, with this new age bypass especially, there’s this emphasis on we can transcend the human experience, basically. Learning to disassociate and fooling ourselves into believing that’s transcendence. That we’re beyond pain. But that’s not the point. We’re not meant to transcend the human experience. Anne: It reminds me of a lunch with a gratitude coach. she wants to partner with BTR and at this lunch, she said, “If you can be super grateful, then any experience you go through is beneficial to you, useful to you. And I was like, that’s not helpful women stuck in this abusive situation, and all they’re trying to do is be grateful for their situation. And what it’s teaching them, rather than actually getting to safety. So I told her this would never be a good fit for my audience. Although it’s good when you’re in trauma to see the things worth being grateful for. You know, y I’m grateful that I have food today. I’m grateful that I don’t have to sleep on the street. I’m grateful that I have a blanket that I enjoy. You don’t have to say, I’m so grateful to be in this abusive situation. Tracy: No. No, you don’t. In fact, there’s power in recognizing that you’re not grateful to be in that situation. THE Danger OF TOXIC POSITIVITY IN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND Tracy: This is a common thing, is this toxic positivity, which is the excessive or ineffective overgeneralization of a happy and optimistic state all the time. Denial, minimization, and invalidation of genuine emotional human experience. So, that would manifest as hiding what we feel behind a positive front. Dismissing my emotions, feeling guilty for the negative emotions I feel, only positive prayer for my husband, and minimizing other people’s experiences. Trying to distract them from what they’re feeling, encouraging ourselves or others to reframe their experience. Which, that’s not always a bad thing. Sometimes that can be very helpful, but we have to be mindful of timing. And then also shaming others for feeling negative emotions. When I was in serious trauma. I just found out about everything that had been going on in my marriage for 15 years a month before. So something triggers me, and I cry, and I left the room because I was with family. I was with extended family, my parents, and a sister and, you know, her family, and it was embarrassing. I didn’t want to make them uncomfortable, so I left the room. But I could not stop crying, just sobbing. And my Mom followed me, and she said, “You know Tracy, you just need to put a smile on your face for the sake of your children.” And that was not helpful. The Need For Safety & Stability Tracy: So now I’m a bad mom because I’m crying in front of my children? Because I’m obsessed with internet filters like cleanbrowsing. And I had no control over that trigger in that moment. The trauma was too fresh. It was too recent. Not only was it not helpful, it was also very shaming. Also, she told me in the same conversation, “You just need to put the past in the past and look to the future in prayer for your husband”. Anne: Let’s skip right to, Oh, put on your happy, positive attitude about it and everything will be okay. But if you keep crying, then it’s for sure not going to be okay. But that is another way of telling a victim it’s her fault. A month after you don’t know if it really is in the past. Tracy: You’re still living it. Yeah, I was still not safe. She wanted me to skip healing. She wanted me to pretend nothing was wrong. Whereas what I needed was safety and stability. And after I’d found safety and stability, I need to go through the long, messy process of grieving to go back to the past. And acknowledge it, validate it and feel what we need to feel. Pressure To Move On IN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND We have this societal intolerance, this cultural intolerance for feelings of helplessness and loss of control, which leads to victim blaming. People who have an inability to tolerate their own difficult emotions are not capable of tolerating the pain and suffering in others. So, they’re impatient for us to just move on, or just pretend everything’s fine. Victims remind us of our own vulnerability. If she was victimized, I could be victimized, and that’s scary. So I pretend she wasn’t victimized, she just made a bad choice, or she just put herself in a bad situation. And so if I cannot make that same bad choice or put myself in that situation like she did, I won’t have to feel helpless. Victim Blaming & Self-Blame Tracy: Victim blaming is a convenient way to avoid taking responsibility for our own actions if we have played a part. So often, abusers will do this, or people who have contributed to secondary trauma, exacerbated the trauma. They’ll continue to blame the victim because it’s a way to avoid taking responsibility for their own part and the victim’s pain or injuries. And then also that there’s self-blame that happens oftentimes. Where we as victims desiring a sense of control, blame ourselves. Because then we’re like, well, if I had just done this, then that wouldn’t have happened. So, if I can change my husband or change the way that I am or the things that I do going forward, then this won’t happen to me again. And we see this oftentimes, I think, in a betrayal trauma community. They’re safety seeking behaviors, essentially. It’s, if I am just the perfect wife in all of these different ways, then he won’t betray me again. Anne: In some 12-step circles, women are told you have to keep coming to 12-step meetings for the rest of your life or this will happen to you again. Tracy: Yeah, as if doing that has any bearing whatsoever on his choices. Like it doesn’t. Anne: I think it’s ironic because they talk out of both sides of their mouth. They’ll be like, you have no control over him, I have no control whether or not I am over him, but this will happen to you again if you don’t keep coming to meetings the rest of your life. I’m like, what? Tracy: It doesn’t make sense. Like, you can’t have all of these things be absolutes at the same time. Perception Vs. Reality Anne: Rather than thinking, how can I change my inner thoughts so that I can change reality, I think if victims are most interested in truth. What is the truth? In our case, what we’ve been perceiving incorrectly is that we’re in a relationship with a really good guy, who has a few small problems rather than the reality that he is an abusive person. Is it true? Regardless of how he looks at church, regardless of how good of a provider he is, are these behaviors that I’m experiencing abuse? Tracy: Yes, exactly. Positive Thinking As A Form Of Spiritual Bypass Tracy: More important than positive thinking. Because while positive thinking can be helpful sometimes, it can keep us in dangerous situations. I know a woman who experienced incredible betrayal trauma. A very sad story. And a friend wanted to be helpful. Let me help you reframe this experience to just look for the positive, imagine the good that can come of this. That’s not what she needs right now. Because I knew enough about her situation that what she needed was safety. She was not safe. Immediately jumping to, what are the lessons? Or what are the blessings that could come from this? Worst Case Scenario: Abuse & Minimization Anne: Everyone wants a happy, safe marriage. And so women have already been operating on that for years, where they’re like, okay, he can change. I will be patient as he changes. I will believe in Christ’s atonement. So they’re saying, I will be patient. Because I want this positive outcome. But when it comes to abuse, the worst case scenario is not divorce. You’re currently in the worst case scenario, abuse. And nothing will feel good. There’s nothing that’s going to feel peaceful. There’s nothing that’s going to feel right when it comes to abuse. Every effort you make to work towards safety will feel like, ugh, I don’t want to do this. Tracy: Truthful thinking is often painful. The reality of our situations hurts. So, it is tempting to minimize the pain of it and pretend it’s not as bad as it is. Post-Traumatic Growth Vs. Spiritual Bypass Tracy: For me, allowing myself to feel as broken as I was, that’s a starting place. And then diving into learning to have more compassion for myself. And giving myself grace for the things I’d been through. Where I had been victimized, and then integrating the story. So it’s like I can think back on my story, even the story I’m in right now, still, and not feel ashamed of it. Not feel this intense pain about it. It’s part of who I am now, and I wouldn’t be who I am now if I hadn’t been through that. This new humility where because I feel so much compassion for myself, it naturally extends to others. I just feel compassion for all my fellow human beings, whatever struggles they’re going through. It’s changed my perspectives on almost everything. It affected basically every part of my life. Using Spiritual Bypass Means Post Traumatic Growth Isn’t Possible Tracy: Surround yourself with safe people who can be patient with you, who can see you up close and personal, and not turn away. Anne: I think when women realize they were a victim. They don’t have to go to 12-step for the rest of their lives. There is no way to heal when using prayer for my husband as spiritual bypass. There’s nothing they did or can do that would have avoided it. And then learning new skills, learning new things about themselves. This can be a reason to learn and grow more. Trigger Warning: Positive Post Tracy: Exactly. And it’s not a straight and narrow path. It’s a long, winding, loop de loop kind of path. When I was in deep trauma, it was difficult for me to hear overly positive reflections on betrayal trauma from people at the other end of the tunnel. It felt painful and unrealistically optimistic. Like I couldn’t trust that these women were actually at peace with all that had happened. And I resented they were not giving justice to the pain they had endured. For me, for hope to feel legitimate, I have to hear and feel how dark it was before. If I just see an after picture, then I doubt the reality of the before picture. I have to see them side by side to fully appreciate and trust the miracle of the healing that has taken place. Not everyone here knows my story, or is witness to the depths of the pain and trauma I have experienced. The hopelessness, fear, confusion, paralysis, anger, loneliness, anxiety, depression, and deep sorrow. I do not ever want to minimize the pain and trauma of anyone, by glossing over the struggle and only celebrating the healing. Growth From Betrayal Trauma Because the struggle is real, and it is hard. And I believe in honoring the moment we are in, and the emotions that we are feeling. Because doing that is a key part of finding genuine peace and healing. But it’s hard to accept and honor where we’re at from a place of self compassion and love if we feel that others are not honoring it with us. Tracy: So, please know that I still hold a place for those of you in the depths of the struggle. It’s okay to struggle. It’s okay to feel whatever you are feeling. And I don’t judge you for any of it. I see you and I love you. So, after that lengthy disclaimer, I can finally say that I am grateful for my betrayal trauma. I woke up at 5 a.m. after a disturbing dream and couldn’t go back to sleep. And I was lying in bed and realized that I am grateful for it. I never thought I’d get to this point. I wasn’t sure if I ever even wanted to get to this point. But I am here, and I am glad. I am grateful for the person I am becoming because of what I have experienced. And I like me. I have learned things and grown in ways I am not sure I could have without experiencing the trauma of betrayal. Does this mean I would go back and choose to do this again? I don’t know. I’m not sure. Does it mean I would wish anyone else to be blessed with betrayal trauma? Hell no. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone. Does it mean God predestined me to be betrayed by my husband, assigning this trial to me? No, I don’t believe that for a second. The Good & Bad Of Betrayal Tracy: He hasn’t condemned me for missing those warnings. He has loved me and helped me learn from the experience. And through the experience, I have learned that he wants me to be safe and to know happiness, and I have learned how to trust and rely on him to keep me safe and at peace. And if I miss another warning and fall into darkness again, he will be there to lift me up and guide me back to light and healing. None of the good that has resulted for me through this trauma takes away from the bad. I view them side by side. If I didn’t give full validation to the bad, I wouldn’t fully appreciate the good. Why would I want to cheat myself of greater joy by glossing over or denying the darkest parts of my journey? I will do my best to honor whatever moment I am in, knowing that things can always be changing. And I am not defined by any one moment. I don’t have to feel sad, or lonely, or angry forever. Just as I don’t expect to feel happy and positive all the time for the rest of my life either. The beauty is in the flow. Choosing safety And I think the gratitude and joy that we can feel if we allow it to come naturally, as opposed to chasing it is more genuine. That’s my experience. It was not helpful for me growing up as a child in a culture and family where I was constantly told I needed to choose to be happy. To choose not to let things bother me, and that I just needed to smile more. The ultimate spiritual bypass. It wasn’t helpful. It didn’t help me to be a happy kid. And in trauma, when I was legitimately a victim of a terrible thing, it was re-traumatizing and therefore actually stunted me a little bit. Until I recognize what goes on and set boundaries around people who were not safe. First of all, my own experience growing up, there was an absolute aversion to the word “feminist”, to the point that I never did any learning about it, I accepted that feminism was a bad thing. I grew up hearing the word feminazi used by people close to me. Which is a really derogatory, mean thing to say. Even in my adulthood, when I started opening myself up a little bit to some ideas in feminism, I thought, is there another term we can use? Is there another term? Is there another word we can use? But now, I have come to embrace and love the word. I consider myself a feminist. Not just a feminist, I consider myself a radical feminist. Feminism Vs. Spiritual Bypass Let’s see what Sarah Bessey says about it. She says, page 13 of her book, Feminism is complicated, and it varies for each person, much like Christianity. It’s not necessary to subscribe to all the diverse and contrary opinions within feminism to call oneself a feminist. God is the source of truth. Christians can still thank God for the good works associated with feminism, such as the gaining of status for women as persons under the law. Voting, owning property, and defending themselves in a court of law against domestic violence and rape. As Canadian theologian John D. Stackhouse, Jr. says, Christian feminists can celebrate any sort of feminism that brings more justice and human flourishing to the world. No matter who is bringing it, since we recognize the hand of God in all that is good. Modern Christian feminism is alive and well, from social justice movements to seminaries and churches to suburban living rooms worldwide. The Radical Notion Of Equality Tracy: At the core, feminism simply consists of the radical notion that women are people too. Anne: I was talking to someone about it. They were uncomfortable about the word feminist. And they said, well, I just don’t want it to swing too far. And I said, the pendulum cannot swing too far on equality. Like what? That we always have to keep women a little below men. No, it can swing as far as it needs to swing. Currently speaking, women are not believed. Women are not taken seriously. When they experience this extreme emotional and psychological abuse and oppression, they are blamed for it. If we talk about our experience, we shouldn’t talk about it in that way. And if we complain about it, we’re complaining too much about it. If we stay silent about it, we are in denial. There’s no way right now to appropriately protest it without being blamed in some way. Tracy: Right. Because it sounds radical. Anne: Yeah, it sounds extreme, right? Oh, she’s using this word abuse. It’s not that extreme. And you’re like, no, that’s actually what it is. And I’m not being extreme. As far as I’m concerned, I don’t think it can go too far when it comes to equality. So until women can be equally believed, as equally understood, as equally taken seriously. The pendulum has not swung far enough. Tracy: I love Sarah Bessey, she names one of her chapters: “Jesus Made a Feminist Out of Me” Feminism: Women Are Equal To Men Tracy: This was part of the transformation, the post-traumatic growth. It was tapping into this truth. That society had been suppressing in me for most of my life leading up to that point. On page 111, she’s talking about a difficult experience for herself, which had to do with pregnancy, but for me, it was betrayal trauma. And she says, but the truth remains, regardless of the circumstances unique to us. The voice of God has a habit of breaking through the noise of our lives, giving us a turning point. So that we mark the rest of our lives differently from that moment on. When we talk about these moments in our lives, we begin our stories with the words, and then everything changes. And that was betrayal trauma. And I’m a feminist now. Jesus made a feminist out of me. That was a natural result of healing in my life. It was a result of stopping the spiritual bypass. Anne: For women uncomfortable with this word feminist, I want you to consider who is telling you that feminists are bad? What is that about? Tracy: It’s because it’s a disruption of the status quo. It infringes on power structures as they are. It’s a threat to patriarchy. Patriarchy & prayer for my husband Tracy: I agree, though, with Sarah when she says patriarchy is not God’s dream for humanity. For a while, even after I began to embrace feminism. I still was like, but is there a way to make it work within patriarchy? Is there a way that patriarchy is still the right way and like, and we just have to tweak this or tweak that in prayer for my husband? And ultimately, no, I believe that patriarchy is the result of the fall, like that’s not how God intended men and women to interact. Men are legally in charge, they’re the organizers of society. And for most of human history, women didn’t have much power. I mean, they weren’t counted as humans. You’re literally treated as property. Which is the ultimate spiritual bypass. You don’t have freedom because God made it that way. You can’t vote, you have no say in how the laws are actually written that affect you. Results in a terrible, terrible experience for women and girls. But I would say it’s not healthy for boys and men either. Like, it’s not what God intended. It also sets these strict gender roles. I don’t think they’re helpful to men either. It’s comfortable for them because it was made to be more comfortable for them, but it’s still not the way God intended it. HOW RIGID “Gender Roles” KEEP WOMEN STUCK Anne: So you’ve got the class in charge, men. They can define these roles. So they want to define the situation that is the most comfortable for them. And so they’re telling women, well, you would be most comfortable if you acted like this. If you did this, rather than letting the women have a voice. The most logical way of doing a partnership with a husband and wife, would be, okay, we’re going to marry. Let’s sit down and talk about each of our talents. What are the things we enjoy and what are the things we’re good at? So I might say, I’m good at yard work. I’m excellent at gardening. I love being outdoors. I’m not so good at cooking and organizing food. That’s just not one of my talents. It’s not something I’m interested in, right? And then he would say, okay, these are the things I like. I also like being outdoors. I also like doing yard work. Great. We can do that together. And I also don’t like cooking. At that point where there’s this thing that’s like, huh, we both don’t like cooking, then the answer is not, well, you’re the girl. So you have to do it. Sometimes it sounds spiritual…like telling women the answer to their marriage issues is simply prayer for your husband. It still removes shared responsibility. Protecting Women’s Choices For Their Lives Anne: We want to protect women’s ability to choose the kind of life they want. That includes freedom from the idea that prayer for your husband is her primary job. Many people can hold a job, be a parent, and take a shower. And doing their laundry and eating. So this idea that women must do basic household tasks. Like laundry, cooking, cleaning and stuff like that. Because a human isn’t capable of doing basic self care things. And having talents, exploring their talents, and doing anything else is ridiculous. But everyone should be free to explore their own talents and what they’re good at. And what they’re interested in, and also be able to do regular household tasks. A person’s mission in life should not be just basic household tasks that everyone needs to know how to do. Tracy: Right, and if both the husband and the wife approached marriage in that way. Approached life in that way, then they could work that out together and form some sort of equilibrium. But forcing people into these specific gender roles, there are plenty of men who don’t feel comfortable being shoehorned in that way either. Anne: They don’t know how to fix the air conditioner. And so what do you do? You call an AC guy to fix your air conditioner. But then to say to a woman, well, you’re a woman, so you should be forced to cook. Working Out Marital Tasks Anne: It’s like, no, you’re not forcing me to fix the air conditioner. So what can we do to work this out? There are so many other options. If we’re willing to accept that God created each of us as individuals with talents to do his work. He hasn’t just said all women I created you with one job, domestic labor and prayer for your husband. Sorry, it’s your only option. Tracy: Once you move beyond, when her children are young and at home, women talk about feeling empty. Like, where’s my purpose anymore? How sad is that? Anne: My Mom, she’s only worked outside the home for a very short time, but she’s very handy. She knows how to tile, she’s a kitchen designer, she does electrical and plumbing and all kinds of things. And she remodeled our house a ton. She’s helping me remodel my house right now. In fact, that is the construction you can hear in the background if you’ve heard any of it. My Mom is out hammering and finishing my basement right now. She’s interested in construction. She loves it. Is she the best person at making dinner every night? No, that’s not one of her talents. But that doesn’t make her a bad mom. If she couldn’t explore her talents, and told to just be happy making dinner, that’s spiritual bypass. the Role “Biblical” Womanhood in prayer for my husband Anne: She’s an excellent, amazing mom, and loves construction. I’m grateful that even if she didn’t work in the construction industry, she could explore her talents. Even not working outside the home. So I’m not trying to say that women have to do it in a certain way or a way that they feel uncomfortable with. But having a man look at you and say, well, you have to clean the toilet because you’re a woman. That’s your job, is crazy. Tracy: It is. Anne: It can be anyone’s job. Tracy: Yeah, she talks a lot about this in Chapter 6, Patron Saints, Spiritual Midwives, and “Biblical” Womanhood. She says, the phenomenon of being a stay at home mother is relatively new and unique to the prosperous. Right along with daycares to provide child care. It’s a mark of our privilege to decide. Or to adjust our household budget to keep one parent at home full time with the children. I believe it is a worthy pursuit, good work, holy work. I hope so, it’s my own daily work. But it’s not the same thing as Biblical womanhood, is it? If a woman can enjoy the title in Haiti, or even by the woman hailed in scripture. The same way it can be by a middle class woman in Canada, then Biblical womanhood must be more than this. Jesus Defends Women’s Choices Tracy: I love the example she gives of Mary in the story of Mary and Martha. I had never read this story before. Mary was sitting at the feet of Jesus as a pupil. This is on page 19. She says, “The daughters had never had that spot. Even after Martha tried to remind her of her duties and responsibilities to their guests, Jesus defended her right to learn as his disciple. He honored her choice as the better and said it will not be taken away from her.” And what is she doing right there, but defying gender roles and cultural standards. Christ is honoring and encouraging her in that. So I never understood the story that way. Because in the church culture I grew up in, it was very much, no, to be a good woman, you do it this way. You fit this role, you think this way, you feel this way. You know spiritual bypass. Anne: This is similar to spiritual bypass and new age bypass. Religion and society tell women As a strong woman, I should bypass painful things and remain in prayer for my husband. Benevolent Patriarchy And Spiritual Bypass Anne: If you’re a real, true, righteous woman, then your husband wouldn’t be looking at porn, because your prayer for your husband would be powerful enough, and he wouldn’t want to do that. If you had enough faith in Jesus, you can create miracles in your family. There’s this intersection here between spiritual bypass and feminism. Tracy: That actually reminds me of benevolent patriarchy, which is what exists in my church organization. It says, “we’re going to put women on a pedestal. We’re going to talk them up. We’re going to talk about how wonderful they are, how spiritual they are, how incredible they are, how they are more inclined to righteousness than men are.” “They don’t have to work as hard for it. It just comes more naturally to them. But we don’t want to hear what they have to say. We don’t want their unique experiences. Because if their unique experiences contradict what we’re saying their experience should be, they’re not valuable anymore.” Anne: They’re more spiritual and better, but they can’t be trusted to lead. Tracy: Exactly. It doesn’t make sense. It’s very much a, as long as you’re falling in line and holding up this system, then your voice is valuable. And we will let you speak in prayer for my husband. But if that same woman says, well, this is my experience, and this is what God is teaching me. But it contradicts the status quo or infringes on the comfort of men. Then, suddenly, her voice is not valuable anymore. Suddenly, her access to the spirit must is impinged a form of spiritual bypass. Asking Too Much & Holding Men and Women To The Same Standard Anne: Wonky, she’s gone off the deep end. She’s a little cray cray. When women get labeled crazy or gone too far, usually it’s when they’re saying something that is right in line with church doctrine. So for example, most churches say abuse is wrong. But then they’ll be like, well, this woman is making this up, or she’s being too loud, or she’s talking about it in a way that’s not the right way. It’s like, but what I’m saying is exactly in line with what you profess to believe. Tracy: Stepping outside the church for a minute, just into a secular place. That reminds me that we had the first wave of feminists with suffragettes, getting the right to vote. Then we had the second wave feminists in the sixties and seventies. And then we had the third wave feminists a few decades later. We’re really just saying, look, we want to hold men to the same standard that we’ve been held to all along. And men resisted that, society resisted that, and labeled the feminists as a problem. Women In The Workforce Anne: On that note, I want to talk about women in the workforce. So many women, when they divorce or are considering a job or something. Many women think, okay, well, I want to be a therapist. Or they think, well, I’ll work at the library or at the school, or something that fits with, how can I be a mom? And I just want to shout out to women considering, how can you become more independent or use your talents better, or wha tever you feel like you need to do. There are so many needs for women in politics, in policing or in law, like becoming lawyers, becoming judges. I want women to open their minds to like, you can do anything, and you can help the world in so many ways. Pursuing Ambitions Despite Spiritual Bypass Tracy: As a kid, I had all those kinds of ambitions. I remember wanting to be a doctor, lawyer, teacher. Wanting to be an architect. I wanted to be a writer. But as I got older, I forgot about all of that. Because at my core, I believed that I couldn’t. And because of the way it was talked about, it was the way it was modeled for me. I was told, yes, you need to go to college and get a degree, so that you can get a job if your husband gets hit by a truck someday. That’s literally what I was told. It wasn’t so that… Anne: …so that you can fill the measure of your creation. Tracy: Exactly. It was always a backup plan. Like I had all these ambitions, and yet I felt these limitations made it very difficult to actually pursue any of that. because i was focused on prayer for my husband. Spiritual Bypass And The Struggle For Independence Tracy: And I ended up doing what my culture told me to do, which was get married young and focus on prayer for my husband. I barely graduated from college before my first baby was born. And didn’t get any real work experience, so although I have a degree, it’s sad. I feel embarrassed even talking about it, because it feels like a worthless piece of paper to me. Because I’ve never used it, and I have no serious career work experience. I’ve had little jobs here and there. But I was not set up to think about my life in terms of, oh yes, I could pursue a career. Because that could be a fulfilling thing for me. And beyond that, so many women in our community, for sure, feel so trapped. It’s just another layer to the difficulty of their situations. Because it’s difficult to see a way out when they have been financially dependent, and they feel so helpless. There are opportunities, and I love when women figure it out. But, oh, it adds so much more difficulty. Anne: Like, let’s say now at 40, you decided you would go to law school, you could do that, right? But then you’re 15 years behind the man who went to law school at 25. So that’s what makes it difficult, but that doesn’t make it impossible. It’s Never Too Late Anne: Women may think they’ve lost they’re chance to do that thing that you feel like in your heart, you always wanted to do. It could be that you want to be a painter, literally like paint people’s houses, not like an artist. It could be that you want to run a yard care business. I don’t know, whatever you enjoy, it is not too late. Will you be behind your male counterparts, who started when they were 25? Yeah, but I want women to know that if they start now with whatever they want to do. If they want to go to med school and finally graduate when they were 60, they could still be a doctor for 20 years from when they’re 60 to 80. You know, there’s always options. And I want women to realize that it’s not too late for you. Tracy: I see women go through the struggle because it’s a struggle. But then I see them do it, it’s incredible to see. Also, it sets a wonderful example for your children. HONORING CHOICES IN PRAYER FOR MY HUSBAND Anne: Yeah, now that being said, so many women want to stay at home and I honor that choice as well. I remember when I had my son and I was thinking about going back to work, because at the time my husband didn’t have a job. My son was nursing. And so just the thought of leaving him to work horrified me. I did not want to do that. So I want to honor women who are like, no, no, I need to be with my children. This is what I need to do. Supporting Women’s Choices Anne: Because those things are important, and supporting women in their choices and what they feel they need to do in their lives. Our aim here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery is to support, validate, encourage, and be there for you regardless of what you choose. We care about you and love you and validate you and want you to do what’s right for you, whatever that is. Tracy: Yes, for women unfamiliar or a little uncomfortable with the idea of feminism. You don’t have to align yourself politically with a particular brand of feminism to call yourself a feminist. There are pro-life feminists. If that’s an issue for some women. Yeah, just don’t be afraid of the word. There’s no shame in the word. Women Deserve Peace & Safety Anne: It can mean many things to many people, but the cool thing is you can define your own type of feminism. You can define the way you want to promote equal rights for yourself in your own life, and also for women throughout the world. It can help us overcome spiritual bypass. This podcast more than anything is to help women come out of the fog of emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. And be able to live lives of peace and safety. That is what women deserve.
• What is the Emotional Cycle of Abuse? 31.03.2026 27Min.

  Have you ever felt like your marriage keeps cycling between calm and tension? You’re not alone. Many women spend years searching for answers, while being told to communicate better, manage stress, or meet their husband’s needs. But those explanations don’t solve the issue, because this isn’t random conflict, it’s a repeating emotional cycle of abuse. This cycle follows a familiar rhythm. Tension builds, an incident erupts, then comes remorse or brief kindness.The “honeymoon” leads to calm, and the pattern resets, leaving you doubting yourself instead of seeing the manipulation. In this episode of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, we show what the emotional cycle of abuse looks like in real life.You’ll hear a woman’s story who once believed more patience and prayer could fix her marriage, but it never did. This conversation exposes the emotional cycle of abuse and helps women find a path to emotional safety. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take our free emotional abuse quiz. Transcript: What is the Emotional Cycle of Abuse? Anne: If you’ve ever wondered why your marriage feels like a constant loop, moments of peace, followed by tension, followed by something that breaks you. You’re not imagining it. You’ve probably searched for answers. You’ve likely been told it’s a communication issue or somebody has unmet needs, or that you just need to try harder, be calmer, or maybe even pray more. But none of that explains why it always circles back to pain and unresolved issues. What you’re living through isn’t chaos. It’s a pattern, a deliberate repeating cycle, And when you finally see that pattern for what it is, an emotional cycle of abuse, that’s what today’s episode is about. Today I have a member of our community. We’re gonna call her Jamie. Here’s a part of her interview. Jamie: I just knew I can’t do this. There’s a concept called Pain for Love, it was the first time I heard anything that sounded close to what I was experiencing. It was that you’re emotionally at a zero, then they would act out. And then you start getting angry and explode, and they realize, oh, I have got to calm you down. Anne: So the therapist called this Pain for Love, but didn’t explain it as a cycle of emotional abuse. And that’s what we’re going to talk about today. Welcome, Jamie. Jamie: Hi, thank you, Anne. It’s so nice to be here. Thank you. Understanding The Early Signs of An Emotional Cycle of Abuse Anne: Let’s start at the beginning. Jamie: At the beginning of my relationship, it was amazing. I met my husband through a mutual friend from high school. In phone conversations with her over a couple of years. I knew about him. He knew about me. So when we met in person, it was so much fun. I felt so good. He seemed to have a lot of energy, I kid you not. Two weeks after we met, he took me with a big friend group to Cancun. And he would buy me things. He seemed interested in the same things. We went to a lot of Christian concerts, and he tagged along with us. It was so much fun, and we enjoyed it. I can say that when we got married, the light switch just flipped and a lot of that stuff stopped. But looking back now. I can see red flags, that I didn’t know or understand. Anne: When we’re in it, it’s not a red flag. It’s more of a hiccup. It’s not like someone’s screaming, and yelling is not bad. No, it’s not bad. And there’s nothing that we did or didn’t do back then, because even with a good person, like a genuinely good person, you might have a hiccup. They might be some kind of fluke thing that happens. You can’t tell if it’s a fluke or not until you’ve known him for a couple of years. Jamie: That’s right. It’s a pattern of behavior, and the pattern of behavior only comes with time. For me, we were young, so I expected natural time and maturity to happen, and that those little hiccups wouldn’t be what they turned out to be. When Affection Turns Into A Control Tactic Anne: Right, growing together. Jamie: Yeah. And that never happened at all. Anne: You’re processing it the best way possible. So, let’s talk about things that you noticed, but maybe didn’t process as red flags. Did you ever notice something was off? Talk about how you defined it at that time, not knowing that you were dealing with the emotional cycle of abuse. Jamie: One of the incidents that happened, not someone I was in a relationship with, but just dating to go out and date. He ended up holding me against my will for three days. Anne: Oh, yikes. Jamie: That was a year and a half before. I had been in therapy. I was in a good place when I met my husband. So three months into dating my husband, we decided to exclusively date. The only thing I noticed was the F-bomb. And my husband used that in conversational speak. I don’t and never have, but he was, and I was like, okay, I don’t want him to think this is him because I’m having a reaction to that. So I actually shared with him what had happened to me. I was vulnerable and shared this traumatic event with him. And I said, “Hey, when you’re using that, I’m having a reaction. I feel it. It’s probably the last little bit that I’ve got to work through.” And then he turned around and used the F-bomb over and over. He weaponized it, then told me, “Well, you are the one who has the issue with that. I’m not changing the way I use anything. You are the one who has the problem with that. So that’s your problem to work through, not mine.” He weaponized my vulnerability Jamie: And at the time I was like, oh, I guess he’s not wrong. At the time, I didn’t think it was that big of a deal because I was like, maybe he’s not using it more. Maybe I’m just more perceptive of it, you know? But no, he absolutely weaponized it and did it over and over and over. At the same time, I would say to him like, these are actual examples. “I really love it when you open the door for me. That makes me feel good and special. Thank you for doing that.” And he quit. He withheld it. That one he never really had a reason for or excuse other than, well, I’m just not that type of guy to do that. Anne: So, this was after you thanked him, so he opened the door for you. Then after you thanked him, he was like, because she appreciates this and it means something to her, I’m for sure not gonna do it. Jamie: I rationalized that away as, I guess that’s not that big of a deal if he doesn’t open the door. It’s kind of weird that I told him that I liked it. Now he is not doing it. But of course at the time I just, okay, no big deal. And didn’t think that type of behavior would continue, but it did. In little ways and in big ways, and still to this day, it is that way. So he withholds anything that I tell him is good. He continues repeatedly to do something that I tell him is bad, and then blames me for the reaction of pain, hurt, and anger. After that for a really long time. How an Emotional Cycle of Abuse Keeps Women Off Balance Jamie: He’s so good at making me believe that. I did believe it was my fault a long time. I thought I was in a good place, but maybe I’m not. And he is a healthcare professional, so I trusted him. He’s gotta know what he is talking about in some things. I didn’t see it as manipulation at the time. Anne: Each thing that would happen felt isolated. That why betrayal trauma in marriage is so difficult. The F word thing, that’s just about the F word, the door thing. It’s just about doors. Jamie: That’s exactly right. And still to this day, that’s exactly how he wants to categorize it. We have three kids together. A boy, girl, boy, ages 20, 18, and 15, and the 20-year-old was a baby and in a stroller. I knew something is wrong and I couldn’t put my finger on it, so I found a counselor. I remember going into his office and he was like, okay, y’all hug each other. Anne: Wondering will couples counseling work? So this was couple counseling. Jamie: This couples counseling. And so I gave him a hug and he is like, well, I usually see the problem if there’s a problem giving a hug, but y’all don’t seem to have a problem giving a hug. I’m not sure what’s going on here. And then he would give us like little homework assignments. And I would have this hope that maybe if he does the homework assignment and I do my homework assignment, that we would come back and things would get better. The Role of Counseling and Church Advice in Continuing the Emotional Cycle of Abuse Jamie: That was a waste of time and money. It ended up hurting me. Because I had expectations that maybe this could help us, and I’m like, what is going on? He told me he doesn’t wanna have sex with me, and it was my fault. I felt, if I left it up to him, we would have sex a handful of times a year, birthdays and Mother’s Day. All three of our kids were conceived on my birthday or his birthday. I had been trying to engage with him, and I would get nothing from him, blank stare acting, dismissive, silence. He’s pursed his lips so much now over these years that he has wrinkled mad and angry pursed lips, and just sitting there sulking in silence. And then I discovered some pornography, and I was devastated and in a really bad, bad place. So I reached out to the pastor and I’m like, we need help. And the pastor ends up telling me that I am not letting him lead. I’m like, “I am letting him lead.” And he goes, “You just don’t like where he’s leading.” And he ends up telling me that I am not an obedient wife, that I need to forgive, love, and serve, and that I’m not being obedient. Anne: Obedient my eye. You were totally loving and serving this man. Jamie: Yes, in every way possible. And then of course, this whole time he’s so good at spinning it to make it feel like my fault. At those times, I believed it. And like, okay, we need help, and you need to be more obedient. I left completely devastated and had to leave the church. Because I could not return to that pastor until he left. Emboldened Husband lashes out, calling me a liar Jamie: I was so brokenhearted and devastated, and my husband was like, “See, I told you you’re the problem. It’s not me.” And things went downhill from there. Anne: When they are enabled, they go downhill pretty quickly, ’cause they’re given permission to be worse. I wanna point out the stonewalling was a lie. The blaming you was a lie. Even when he goes into the pastor and says that stuff about you, that’s a lie. So it’s lie after lie after lie, but you don’t know that it’s a lie. Jamie: Most of the time his lying was under the radar, but there were times where I picked up on it. There were times where I’m like, oh, I just caught him and a lie. That’s when he would lash out at me and say, “You are calling me a liar. I don’t know why you’re with me.” Anne: I’m smiling a little bit. ‘Cause in the Living Free Workshop, that’s one of the strategies I teach. If they try to manipulate you through saying something like, “You just think I’m a liar.” Say, “Oh, I never thought about that.” ‘Cause the reason they do that to us is a manipulation tactic. So we’re like, “No, I don’t think you’re a liar.” So that we’ll back down. And sometimes they’re saying the exact thing that if we just agreed as a Christian, that “agree with thine adversary quickly.” I’ve found that a simple, “Hmm, maybe I do think you’re a liar. I need to think about that more.” Strategy removes you from manipulation. Emotional abuse is mentioned in addiction models Jamie: You’re right, exactly right. And I felt like, I didn’t say that, you said that, but I am pointing out to you right here that you lied. That definitely is a tactic that worked a lot on me for a while. Anne: It works on all of us. Jamie: I finally Googled emotional abuse. And the first things that came up were the addiction models. And I’m like, oh yeah, emotional abuse and the addiction model, like pornography addiction, sex addiction. Anne: Sorry. I’m actually shocked that they talk about the emotional cycle of abuse, because they usually avoid saying it’s abuse. Jamie: I absorbed that like a sponge. I ordered him the book and the workbook, and I did a phone group, and many videos about pornography addiction. I did find a counselor through that women’s group online, and we started doing counseling with him. He never mentioned anything of it being abuse, ever. Anne: This is still couple therapy. Jamie: It was supposed to be, because we were going along the lines of that workbook, following those guidelines where you do dailies with your spouse, and after two times I’m like, I can’t do this. I didn’t know I was seeking safety for myself. I just knew I can’t do this. We shared a lot of the material we were learning. The “Pain for love” pattern Jamie: And there’s a concept called Pain for Love. And I just went, oh my goodness, Pain for Love. And the concept there I attached to, because it was the first time I heard or read anything that sounded anything close to what I was experiencing. It was that you’re emotionally at a zero, so you’re fine. But then they would act out, act out, act out, and then you start getting angrier. And then kind of explode and they realize, oh, I have got to calm you down and I’ve got to bring you back down. So he would show up to love me and bring me down, and then return to being his normal self. Anne: Wait, wait, hold on a minute. This is the first time I’ve heard of this concept before, but you’re essentially describing domestic abuse where he grooms, deescalates the victim so he can maintain control, coercive control. Jamie: Yes. Anne: Then as soon as he feels like he can relax because you’re under his control, then you can just go back to being miserable. Jamie: Yes, when I heard Pain for Love, I felt like you have to get to this big level of pain before they’ll show up and love you, and they’ll love you for a little bit, and then leave and go back to causing pain. Anne: I’m so shocked that someone would say this to a woman and not realize how she’s gonna interpret it. I don’t know how he intended it, but the way we interpret it is, this is how I get love. Is that how you were interpreting it? Jamie: Yes Finding Clarity After Naming the Emotional Cycle of Abuse Jamie: The concept is that I would have to get in so much pain, and then he would realize, I need to love my wife for a couple of days. Then rinse and repeat. Yeah, I believed until one of the ladies from my group suggested you and your podcast. I had the podcast on my phone, and then one day I’m like, I’m gonna listen to all this. And my mind was blown. Now, I’ve listened to every one of your podcasts. It was eye-opening. No one had ever told me to seek safety for myself before. Everybody puts the emphasis on him. We gotta help him, love him, encourage him, and we’ve gotta give him the space to do what he needs to do all while hurting me, and nobody ever addressed that, ever. And then I started my Betrayal Trauma Recovery group sessions. I’ve been in now for about 16 months. Only through what I’ve learned through BTR do I know that I’ve been doing a lot of safety seeking behaviors and that it was the best way to get yourself back after emotional abuse. Anne: Yeah, the whole time you are doing the right thing. You are going for help, but it’s insane how no one we ask for help, except for BTR, knows it’s abuse or defines it that way. You found that emotional abuse article that led you to sex addiction therapy, but then they didn’t continue to talk about that. They didn’t say, oh, you found us through emotional abuse, because this is the emotional cycle of abuse. And if you’re emotionally abused, we need to make sure that you’re safe. That that doesn’t even enter the conversation is so crazy to me. Jamie: Yeah, me too. Finding out about an affair Jamie: I came across you, and my life is now completely changing in the direction it needs to change. But only because of what I’ve learned here. I have started seeking safety for myself, and it’s changed everything. And seeking safety. I now feel more confident. When we were dating, he mirrored me and love bombed me. He wasn’t being his genuine, authentic self. He was doing whatever he needed to do to convince me he was the guy for me. Now I look back and I can see there was a lot of abuse and betrayal trauma in my marriage. Anne: It’s been a lie, just an emotional cycle of abuse. Once you see it, you can’t unsee it. Jamie: Yes, I wish I’d known this a long time ago, but I know it now. My youngest son wanted to go shopping. My husband had told me he was going to go into the business earlier that morning. We own our own healthcare business together. My son says, Hey, I forgot something in dad’s car. Can we go get it? We stopped by, he had locked the doors and taken my key off my key chain. My son called him, he answered the phone, but then put us on mute for like two minutes, and then two minutes later he’s like, hello, hello, can you hear me? So he comes and opens the door, and we went in. We heard the back door open. My son headed back there, and I immediately knew then that my husband was having an affair. My first thought was to protect my son, so I just said, Hey, let’s go. We are leaving. We get in the car and my son says, “Mom, aren’t you gonna confront Dad?” Seeking safety for myself Jamie: No, this is not for you to be a witness of, and I care about you and we’re gonna go. And he just didn’t understand why I didn’t wanna confront Dad. About a month later, he walks into my room and says, “We need to talk about divorce.” About a month after that, he hands me a handwritten piece of paper with a settlement offer. The bare, bare minimum and wants to walk away with our business free and clear without giving me a dime. He thinks that’s fair. He was like, I think this is fair. If I didn’t think it was fair, I wouldn’t have written it and handed it to you. So during this time, I’m still in groups. I’m still getting support. And there’s financial abuse in the divorce process. I had an appointment with an attorney, and the attorney tells me, “Oh, he filed.” Which I didn’t think he would do, but makes sense if he’s trying to start a new life with his affair partner. He’s still in the house, but in the next day or two, we’ll have a temporary hearing for him to move out. I put boundaries into place that I’ve learned from the coaches at BTR from your podcast. From the Living Free Workshop, I’ve learned so much, and it has totally changed my life. And although I wouldn’t wish this on anybody, because this is so hard. I’m grateful and thankful that I have the tools I need to move on and get safe for my kids. I feel like since I’ve learned everything through BTR, I’ve been on a fast track to healing. I haven’t had that. BTR has been a godsend to me to escape the emotional cycle of abuse. Feeling thankful for a changed life Jamie: He isolated me 22 years ago in the middle of the country, and BTR has reached me and changed my life and my kids’ lives. I’m so thankful, I’m thankful for the coaches. I’m thankful you have the courage to turn this around and be a light for other women. I want all of them to know, like you say in the podcast, you didn’t want another woman on earth to go through this. And I don’t either. I know that I have to walk through some pretty big storms and fire before I’m on the other side, but I’m here and it’s what I’ve been waiting for. I’ve learned how to handle those trauma responses better that I was trying to do with the other therapist, and it never worked ’cause it wasn’t addressing the real issue. It’s changed my life. Anne: I’m so grateful to hear that. ’cause I have, of course, my bad days. It’s really hard to do this work, as you can imagine. I’m so sorry about what you’re going through. And then also so grateful that what we’re doing is making a difference. It’s drastically different than anything you’ll get from a therapist or a couple therapists or a sex addiction therapist, because we can see what’s really happening. And it’s crazy to me that like no matter how hard a woman tries. No matter how smart she is, and no matter how resourced she is, if she can’t see what is really happening, no one else will help her. It’s so heartbreaking to me. Jamie: Right. For so many years, I was trying to tell my truth. I said it, and nobody got it. And then I come to BTR and this is the truth. On the fast track to healing Jamie: This is what’s going on, and it’s changed my life and my family. I say I’ve been with the group for 16 months and listening to the podcast for almost two years. That two years compared to 25, that feels like fast track. I think I got the tools I needed to handle what was coming, because I have always said, God knows what we need well before we know we need it. And I think he put this into place to help me, ’cause I feel like I’m not alone. There are so many other women going through this, I’ve have been through it. I’ve listened to their stories, virtually held their hand and given them hugs. The coaching has been amazing, and it has changed my life. I couldn’t be more thankful. I know that’s a God thing. Anne: I think so too. I feel like every day we hear about miracles of someone who says a prayer or something and finds us randomly somehow. It’s not that we’re not here, it’s not that we don’t have the tools to help women, it’s that there are so many other options for therapists or influencers or whoever else, and so finding the right information is so difficult to find a way out of the emotional cycle of abuse. I’m grateful to all the listeners who helped. Other women find out about it. I’m trying to get Living Free into every woman’s hands. ’cause at least for me, if I had it at the beginning or if you would’ve had it 25 years ago, can you imagine the difference that would’ve made? Jamie: Oh yes, very helpful. Always everything is geared towards it’s a we problem. Or he has this problem that we have to help him through. Getting over the shock of a calculating husband Jamie: Never addressing my pain, ever. And now, like you said, I can’t unsee it. Anne: It’s just so calculated. It’s actually really shocking if you’re listening right now and you’re like, is my husband like that? Is this an emotional cycle of abuse? Living Free will help you see what he’s like, and then you can make the decisions based on that. Jamie: Absolutely, that’s exactly what happened with me too. That helped me see exactly. And it helps me process moving forward, and especially the whirlwind I’m going through right now. What to expect, because I now can see him for what he is. And my husband is also one of those who wants to place intent over impact. Anne: It was their intent to do whatever they wanted without worrying about the consequences. Jamie: That’s right. Anne: I actually think intent matters more, and this is the reason. Someone who really genuinely cares about you, who doesn’t wanna hurt you, they’re thinking about you. And maybe they get a gift, and it’s a little offensive, and they’re like, I’m so sorry. I was trying so hard. And I missed the boat. But their intent was good. With these guys, they’re like, well, I bought you a present, didn’t I? Like, why am I not getting points? They don’t actually care about us. Jamie: That’s exactly right. There is no thought of me. Finding a safe place Anne: It’s like my sweet 12-year-old, I love him, and he is gigantic. His arms and legs are so big. If he thinks about where he’s going, he’s not gonna hurt anybody, because he’ll be aware of where his arm is, and it’s not gonna whack someone accidentally. But if he’s just clumping through the house, not thinking about anybody, someone will get hurt. So if you are not aware of the people around you and what you’re doing, you’re going to hurt people and. If you don’t think about other people at all, that is intent. And it is the basis of the emotional cycle of abuse. Jamie: I agree. Anne: Thank you so much, and thank you for your support. It’s because of clients like you and other women who listen to the podcast that we can continue to do this work. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Jamie: Thank you. The work you’ve done and are doing is a godsend. BTR is a safe place, and they’ll take you where you are, how you are. At the moment, they’ll give you tools, you can use them, and be safe. Just having a safe place is priceless. It is so worth it.
• If Your Husband Lies About Small Things, You Need This 24.03.2026 29Min.

  If your husband lies about small things, here’s why it’s not a small problem. Many women in our community describe the same beginning: they start noticing little lies, inconsistencies, or half-truths, but they dismiss them because, overall, he seems like a good guy. He’s involved. He apologizes. He’s trying. So the lies get minimized, explained away, or pushed aside. One of the hardest parts of living with deception is that clarity doesn’t usually arrive with a big confession or undeniable proof. It comes in fragments, small moments that are easy to dismiss, especially when your goal is to hold your family together. When a husband lies about small things, it often points to something much bigger, but that pattern can be hard to see while you’re still inside it. In this episode, Anne shares the French Fry Analogy to explain why lying, gaslighting, and blame-shifting about “small things” can be a major red flag. Before reading on, here’s something many women don’t realize: lying can be an emotional abuse tactic. That truth explains why so many thoughtful, capable women stay confused for so long—not because they’re in denial, but because it’s nearly impossible to see clearly when you’re living in a pattern that alternates between hurtful behavior and reassuring gestures, between small lies and moments that seem like progress. To discover if he’s using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz. Transcript: When He Lies About Small Things, This Brilliant Analogy Offers Insight Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. I’ve been calling her Jenna to protect her identity. You’ll hear in this interview that Jenna didn’t come to clarity because her marriage suddenly got worse. She found clarity when she finally had language for the patterns and she could see how the small lies really revealed something much bigger. So let’s get into it. Welcome, Jenna Jenna: Thank you, Anne. Anne: Jenna and I have been interacting on social media for a long time. On social media, we take the concepts I teach here on the podcast and make visual representations of these concepts, usually through infographics. But every once in a while, I do a video. One of the infographics I posted was an epiphany for Jenna. It helped her see that her husband had been lying about small things, which distracted her from realizing he was also lying about big things. Speaking of social media, on Facebook. I’m also on Instagram @btr.org__, TikTok @btr.org, and if you search btr.org on YouTube, you’ll find me there. If you want to comment anonymously on any particular episode, let’s say this one, go to our website, btr.org and in the search bar put in the title of the episode. So for this one, it would be, my husband lies about small things. This episode will come up. You can see the transcription and scroll down to the bottom. And comment anonymously about what you think. I always love your comments. And I interact with women on the website all the time. I also interact with women on social media. My Marriage Was Not Healthy Anne: So you’re following me on social media, we’re interacting online and then you see this infographic. What happened next? Jenna: It resonated instantly with me. I thought we had hard times, but things are still getting better. I thought we were on that upward trajectory. But when I saw it on Instagram. It just suddenly clicked for me. It has two different graphs. One says, “What I thought my marriage was” and it shows a graph that goes up and down, but it has a trajectory that’s going up. Then, it says, “healthy, hard, healthy, hard.” Anne: Yeah, it’s kind of like a stock market graph. It’s going up in general and healthy is when it goes up and hard is when it dips down. And when it goes back up, it goes even higher. Jenna: It captures the experience I had exactly. Then, underneath what I thought my marriage was, it says what it really was. Instead of the healthy and hard healthy and hard points, it’s actually grooming and abuse, grooming and abuse. The grooming just gets more extreme, and the abuse stays the same. So it’s not that the marriage is improving. It’s that the grooming is just improving, and abuse is still there. Anne: The abuse is actually probably getting worse, but you can’t go lower in a graph. So I created this infographic because that was my experience. RECOGNIZING EMOTIONAL ABUSE PATTERNS WHEN MY HUSBAND LIES ABOUT SMALL THINGS Anne: I thought as we did addiction recovery, and we went to all these therapists, and we did 12 step for wives of addicts…. all the stuff that we would take a step forward and then two steps back. Because the addiction recovery industrial complex told me “He’s going to have relapses” and “progress, not perfection.” I thought, “Oh, we are improving over time, but of course, it’s not just going to be a perfectly straight line to success. We’re going to have ups and downs along the way.” But when I finally took a step back and realized it was abuse, and that my husband lies about small things as part of that pattern, I saw that we weren’t actually moving forward at all. I was just going around in circles. What I thought were setbacks were really just more lies, more grooming, and more emotional abuse. Let’s talk about the factors that would lead a woman to think that these are the regular ups and downs of either marriage in general, or the ups and downs of being in a relationship with a man addicted to exploitative material or maybe has a mental health issue. Jenna: I think the actions he did were positive. He was going to church. And he participated in an addiction recovery group. He did all the things that you would think of when you think of improving. Even times when he would apologize. Or times when he would not gaslight me. I thought that was positive and thought maybe that was improvement. Anne: Congratulations, you didn’t lie. I’m so proud of you! My Husband Was Lying & I Was Sticking It Out Jenna: Seriously, it would be like, oh wow, he took money out of my wallet. And didn’t think I saw, but he didn’t try to convince me that he didn’t do that. As long as you’re going to a group, to therapy, to church, there’s this idea that just doing those things equals I’m a good person. Anne: I think there’s also the societal idea that everything is fixable. As long as you’re willing to work on it and go to therapy. Of course, there’s going to be a solution. Many people go straight to whether their abusive husband needs therapy or an addiction recovery program. Rather than thinking, “Whoa, we need to get you emotionally and psychologically safe.” Why Does My Husband Lie? I was talking to my uncle the other day about my ex, telling him some details. And he was shocked. And then at five o’clock in the morning, the next day he emailed me and said, “Anne, your ex needs a treatment program.” I just laughed, I was like, “That’s what I thought. And so that’s why I got him into a treatment program.” Because he’s abusive and he lies, treatment didn’t help him. And no one told me it was abuse, which is why I’m doing this podcast. Jenna: Yeah. I think there’s an idea that marriage is hard. No one’s perfect. As long as he’s working on it by going to a treatment center or going to therapy or whatever he may be doing. As long as he’s doing those things, you just have to stick it out. Those kinds of ideas, at least, were in my mind, and made it difficult for me to even consider the option that maybe not all marriages are this hard. Maybe not all marriages are abusive. I think that’s one idea that kept me stuck. I Learn His Lies, Gaslighting & Manipulation Are Abuse Anne: Even if you know it’s abuse, then you’re like, “Wow, it’s abuse? Okay, we need to get him into therapy because he’s abusive because he has childhood trauma or he feels shame.” I don’t think they realize that’s not why he’s abusive, number one, and therapy will not help. Most therapists think, “Oh, I can help.” They don’t realize they’re going to get manipulated and gaslit themselves. I don’t know if it’s an ego thing, but therapists don’t tend to realize they are unable to help abusers. Because the prevailing opinion of everyone is that therapy will solve this, I work so hard to educate all women about this. So I hope the infographics help. I took many of them, and I put them in the back of Trauma Mama Husband Drama, which is my picture book for adults. And it’s also available on Amazon. It’s a picture book. So it’s also this visual representation of what it’s like to be emotionally and psychologically abused and coerced, and not realize what’s happening because of his lies. Teaching these concepts in a way that women can actually apply is my top priority. And social media is so important, because I can post those visual representations there. As you’ve been interacting with me on social media, what’s your take on why these are so helpful for victims? I Seek & Find The Truth Jenna For me, learning the term betrayal trauma was incredibly validating and empowering. It gave me language for what I was experiencing—especially in moments when my husband lies about small things and I couldn’t explain why it affected me so deeply.The infographics do something similar. They capture my experience in a way I sometimes can’t put into words. They give me a simple, visual way to understand what I’m feeling and to share that understanding with others. It’s therapeutic, clear, and approachable—and the fact that they’re visually engaging makes them even easier to take in. Anne: Yeah, having it be cute doesn’t hurt. So the process is like, I have an idea in my head, I podcast about it. Then I draw like a pathetic stick figure. And then my amazing friend, who’s an illustrator and graphic designer, brings these to life. She’s incredible. And then she and I go back and forth through so many different iterations to make sure the concept is clear, And then I always revisit them. Maybe six months, or a year or two years later, I look at it again and I’m like, “Oh we need to alter this a little bit.” I’m always getting feedback on them and making updates. So when you say an infographic I created that I posted, it helped you realize your husband’s lies about the small things. Indicated a much bigger thing, that warms my heart. Infographics Helped Me See Reality Jenna: It was so easy for me to overlook the experiences I’ve gone through that were emotionally abusive, and think, he doesn’t punch me. He doesn’t hurt me physically, but emotional abuse affects your body and spirit immensely. It’s not that bad. But when I see it in the infographic, it’s so obvious. It’s apparent what I am experiencing is emotional abuse. It’s damaging, and I’m being sucked into this abuse cycle of grooming and devaluing. It just makes it so clear for me and helps me navigate my next steps to safety. I took the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. The workbook that comes with the workshop had so many visuals and beautiful artwork. It captures the reality of my situation. It’s simple and easy to understand, and helps me digest my own experience. I appreciated that. Anne: I’m so glad to hear that. That’s awesome. I’ve taken so many trainings or workshops. And I was so confused most of the time. I always felt like, Am I doing it wrong? Is it me? And then I realized, no, it’s just not detailed. It’s unclear. It doesn’t give me a way to process it. It doesn’t give me a way to interact with it. And so just like everything else at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I test everything for years, years, and years. With the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, I first used the strategies myself to deliver my kids and myself from abuse. I wanted to make sure it wasn’t a fluke. So I duplicated that success. With other victims, we created a workshop out of it. We ran that workshop live for a few years to get feedback, to know where were victims getting stuck? What parts weren’t clear? The Betrayal Trauma Workshop Is Invaluable Anne: Then we created all the videos for the format. It’s now online, and those videos are incredible because it has visual representations for all these concepts to help women get it. And then I continue to tweak it, tweak it, and tweak it. I have a master’s degree in curriculum and instruction. So I’m obsessed with making sure the content we produce is clear and helpful. And that the services we provide are exactly what women need. Jenna: Yeah, the workshop for me was invaluable. I felt like I learned so much about specific actions I could take and specific situations. It was super helpful. Anne: I am so glad to hear that. I hear that every day from women, how much it helped them. If you’re listening and interested, you can learn more about workshop for betrayal trauma. The French Fry Analogy Anne: As Jenna and I were interacting on social media, she shared something that made me realize the French fry analogy would really help her name what was happening in her marriage. This analogy illustrates why, when a husband lies about small things, it’s often evidence that something much bigger is going on. He comes up to you and says, “You know what? I have been eating at McDonald’s too much, and it’s not healthy for me. It’s bothering me. I don’t like it, so I’m just letting you know that I’m not going to ever eat at McDonald’s again, ever. You, as the supportive wife, would be like, sounds great, honey. This is not that important. You’re like, okay, you do you. Good for you. He doesn’t say anything else about it. Three weeks later, you have to use his car for something. You get in his car, you’re fumbling around with a quarter, and it falls down in a crack. And as you’re trying to get the quarter, you find a French fry. That French fry is unmistakable. It is a McDonald’s French fry. You get your quarter out, you get the French fry out, and you go to your husband and you say, “Hey honey, I lost this quarter and when I found it, I also found this French fry.” Now if he’s a super healthy person, he might say, “I know I told you I want to stop eating at McDonald’s, but I went to McDonald’s three days ago when I had that long drive. And yeah, one of them fell down in the crack. And as far as me falling off the wagon, I feel really stupid about it. AN ANALOGY FOR EMOTIONAL ABUSE WHEN A HUSBAND LIES ABOUT SMALL THINGS Anne: This is not an abuse episode. The situation where he wanted to stop eating McDonald’s and then he fell off the wagon is not that big of a deal. He wasn’t trying to deceive you. He wasn’t trying to hide it from you on purpose. When you asked him about the French fry, he readily admitted he fell off the wagon and went to McDonald’s. Now let’s pretend the whole scenario is the same, but instead, when you find the French fry. And you take it to him and say, I found this French fry. He says. “I don’t know what you’re talking about, I don’t see a French fry.” And then you’re like, “This French fry, this one right here. I found this in the car.” And he’s like, “Well, one of the kids must’ve got in my car and dropped it in there.” With that same scenario, if he starts to gaslight he lies, he’s not a healthy person. Even if this is just about a French fry. Deceit, gaslighting, and turning the tables would be psychological and emotional abuse. And to take it even further, if he said, “Why are you going through my car? Why are you trying to check up on me?” Maybe even, “I never told you I wasn’t going to eat at McDonald’s. Of course, I’m going to eat at McDonald’s. Why would you even think I wouldn’t eat at McDonald’s?” So there’s the French fry analogy. How has this analogy helped you? Experiencing Your Husband’s Lies Jenna: I think it captured what was happening for me. Like you said, they were small, or they felt small at the time. When my husband lies about small things, it didn’t immediately register as something serious. Back then, I didn’t even know he was using exploitative material. He would make up stories about hobbies or abilities he actually did not have. Then, to me, he would deny he had made up those stories. So I would just let his lies go. Now I realize how big they were. But I can look back and see the pattern of different French fries I found. Anne’s EXAMPLE: WHEN A Husband Lies ABOUT SMALL THINGS Anne: My ex did that too. There was this period where we were at dinner parties or social events. I would look out of the corner of my eye. And he was like doing these Tai Chi moves. And he would talk to people about how much he loved Tai Chi. Like he was some kind of Tai Chi master. So after a while, I was very curious. So I said, “How do you know so much about Tai Chi?” And he kind of avoided answering me. And so I got real specific and I said, “Did you take Tai-Chi in college?” “No.” “Did you take it in high school?” “No.” “Did you take it at a gym?” “No.” “Have you read a book about Tai Chi?” “No.” “Have you ever taken a Tai-Chi class anywhere in any way, shape or form?” “No.” “Have you done Tai Chi in a park?” You know how there’s like those old people in a park? “Have you done Tai Chi in a park?” “No.” “Maybe on vacation?” “No.” Ah, I was dumbfounded. He lies, so I don’t know why he didn’t just lie, but in this moment, for some reason, he wanted me to know. I still don’t know why he wanted me to know, because he had no problem with lies when he wanted to. And finally, and maybe this was a lie too. He said, “I read an article about at once.” Like one article is what he said. And he lies about that? Maybe he never even read one article about it. It was crazy. So, instead of just saying, I read an article about Tai Chi and I’m interested in maybe taking a class sometime. No, one article apparently made him an expert in Tai Chi. WHEN YOUR HUSBAND LIES ABOUT SMALL THINGS, IT’S NOT HARMLESS Anne: So if he lies about traveling to London or Tai Chi or French fries, it indicates something serious is happening, but it’s so hard for us to recognize that. Jenna: For me, I feel like I didn’t have proof. Everything inside me said something here is wrong. It is not normal that my husband lies about small things, like going on a trip to London. My brain would say he’s not using exploitative material, because he’d said he wasn’t using it. I can think of way worse things he could be doing. Maybe this isn’t that big of a deal. I think it was easy to rationalize it, to say, this isn’t necessarily a good thing, but because he’s told me he loved me, it’s still progress. Back to that upward trajectory graph in the infographic. Anne: Yeah, totally. After I was separated, I was talking to my dentist. And I said, “I didn’t realize it was abuse. I mean, he had stopped screaming and yelling in my face. And I saw that as progress.” And my dentist was like, “What? What are you talking about?” I know my dentist well. I went to high school with him. He just looked at me and he was like, “A good person would never do that”. Like ever. My dentist couldn’t wrap his head around the fact that victims are manipulated to think he lies about this one thing. He realized he couldn’t scream and yell in your face. So then he lies to you. That’s not progress. But now taking a step back, it’s a gut punch to realize that he wasn’t changing and things weren’t improving. That upward trajectory wasn’t happening. He was just changing up his abuse tactics. I Struggle To Create Safety Jenna: When I look back on my experience, I thought these little breadcrumbs were big improvements. The little things he would do I would see as progress. I imagined myself standing outside my house in a hurricane, like lightning, rain and crazy wind. My hair is flying everywhere and debris flying all around me. I imagine the storm around me being the abuse I experienced. Then I imagine putting my hands over my head, just a little bit as progress. That’s a small improvement from not having any protection, but it’s something. The only thing that created safety for me was walking to my house, stepping inside, and closing the door. I could look out the window and see the crazy storm that was going on outside, but it wasn’t hurting me anymore. I think that’s the only time I could see the abuse for what it was. Because in the moment, I felt that at least my hands are over my head, I’ve got a little protection. I didn’t understand how much danger I was in until I was safe. And I could look back and see how dangerous it actually was. Anne: Oh, I like that analogy. I wonder if part of it is the adrenaline of the chaos. Like you might not realize how cold you are until you get inside. And then you’re like, “Oh, I was really cold and miserable.” But in the moment, you’re just trying to make it down the mountain or survive. One Day At A Time Survival Mode Anne: Which is why people call abuse victims survivors. Because every day they’re surviving in this mental, emotional, and psychological life and death situation. Even if they’re still in the abuse, because they’re surviving one day at a time. We need to ask ourselves. “Wait a minute, do I just want to be in survival mode every day? Do I want to be in that type of chaos all the time? Or do I want to actually be safe and rest in my warm house with a cup of hot chocolate?” And so to help us make our way to safety, that French fry analogy comes in handy especially when a husband lies about small things. Because if something happens, we can think to ourselves, “Okay, if this were just about a French fry, would it still be severe and intense, emotional and psychological abuse?” If someone is willing to completely deny, he lies, gaslights, and blame shifts about a french fry, which is not that big of a deal. That’s a big warning sign that they are emotionally and psychologically dangerous. I want all the listeners to consider things that you may have thought, that’s not that big of a deal. When he lies and denies you had a conversation about changing the oil or picking up milk from the store. Not only is lying emotional abuse in and of itself, it’s only the part of the iceberg you can see, and there is a way, way more beneath the surface that you can’t see. Social Media’s Role In Figuring Out EMOTIONAL ABUSE WHEN A HUSBAND LIES ABOUT SMALL THINGS Anne: Why has following Betrayal Trauma Recovery on social media, interacting with me and engaging with other women, been useful to you? Jenna: I love listening to the podcast, and getting bite-sized pieces of information. I can get on, take in one small topic, a quote, or a thought, and sit with it. It gives me something to think about and helps me understand emotional abuse in a way I can actually process, especially when my husband lies about small things. Anne: That reminds me of one of my good friends in real life. We were friends long before I started podcasting. She’d been in several abusive relationships, but for me, talking to her was always awkward. Because for her, it felt safer to pull away from the pain and not consider it could be emotional abuse. So as we would talk, I would think, “I have the perfect podcast about this. I should tell her about it.” But I would hold back as much as possible. Our sons were on the same baseball team. So we’d sit together every week and chat while our sons played baseball. And at one game, she told me about her ex, and I was thinking, “Oh, this is abuse. How can I help her understand, since she’s not interested in listening to the podcast?” She loves Instagram. So I said, “Hey, I’m on Instagram. Let’s follow each other.” And the next week at the baseball game, she was like, “Oh, I’ve been learning all this stuff. I realized my ex is abusive.” And in my head I’m thinking, I know. I’ve been trying to tell you that. I was actually a little frustrated and confused, apparently she wasn’t interested in listening to me to educate her about abuse in person. I Start Healing With Daily Instagrams & The BTR Workshop Anne: When it came down to it, the only thing that mattered to me was that she started opening up to the idea that these men she had been dating were abusive. Then I saw the beauty of it. Because she’s not into podcasts. For her, the little bite-size pieces helped her realize what’s happening when her husband lies about small things. Some women have a hard time leaning into the pain, because that doesn’t feel safe. And so just a little bit at a time is helpful to them. Every woman is different. On social media, we’re all equal. We can interact with other women who’ve been through it. Thanks for sharing that story about how my post on Instagram helped you. What else has helped you connect with yourself? Jenna The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop was super helpful. I found them healing and so sacred. They helped me connect with myself and visualize stepping into safety, when that’s scary for me in real life. It helped me visualize myself becoming empowered and accepting that I don’t know what’s going to happen. Also loving myself. There’s one where you revisit your younger self and express love. I felt like it was so healing and powerful for me. I love and value the meditations. Anne: Yeah, I remember you messaged me right after you did the, “I am just right” meditation. And you said you were crying. I assume those were good tears? Jenna: Oh, definitely. Yeah, it was the healing tears, where you just had that moment. You feel love for this part of yourself that needed that love. I just loved it. Anne: I wanted to do those betrayal meditations so that women could process their emotions differently. Which is similar with the infographics and metaphors. Abuse Education Is Available Through the BTR Podcast & Workshop Anne: Different types of content or services speak to women in different ways. I’m proud of Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Through Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’ve created so many avenues for women to get educated about abuse. This podcast is obviously the best way to educate yourself about abuse. Because this podcast is mostly victim stories. And hearing other women’s experience. And realizing. Holy cow, my husband lies about small things, too. It’s so validating. Then having those visual representations of the concepts I teach on the podcast with the infographics on Instagram and on our social media channels is so helpful. The interaction is what makes social media so powerful. And Betrayal Trauma Recovery is the only organization that teaches the strategies of how to get to safety in such a detailed and practical way in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. And then, of course, we never leave any woman alone in this journey. To get help implementing the strategies you learned in the workshop, to get help actually applying the concepts you learn on social media or through this podcast. We have online group sessions with coaches that I personally trained. In our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions, women share from the heart and get real-time face-to-face feedback from our coaches and other women in the group session. Our team is incredible. We are here for you! Our Whole Goal Is To Help Women Understand Abuse Anne: We really care, and it’s my goal and the goal of the whole Betrayal Trauma Recovery team to help every woman understand this. We don’t want anyone trapped in abuse. Like you, Jenna, you’ve been able to apply this stuff and get shelter from the storm. I’m so honored to hear your story. Thank you so much for coming on today. Jenna: Anne, thanks for all you’ve done for creating Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I love this community. It’s been so helpful to me. I’m really grateful. This episode makes sense on it’s own. However, if you want to hear more episodes with Jenna:1: Is It Wrong To Check Your Husband’s Phone? – Jenna’s Experience 2: The Best Way To Explain Betrayal Trauma3: How To Recognize Victim Blaming – Jenna’s Story4: When He Lies About Small Things, This Brilliant Analogy Offers Insight (THIS EPISODE)
• Therapist for Trauma Bonding? What No One Tells You 17.03.2026 33Min.

  ​Are you looking for a therapist for trauma bonding​ because someone told you that you’re trauma bonded with your emotionally abusive husband (or ex)? Here’s what no one will tell you: What People Get Wrong About “Trauma Bonding” People often use the phrase “trauma bonding” to describe a victim’s attachment to an abusive partner. But traditionally, a trauma bond refers to something very different. True Trauma Bonding Examples A trauma bond forms when people go through a traumatic event together, such as: Siblings growing up in the same abusive home Friends surviving a violent घटना together A family experiencing a natural disaster In these cases, shared trauma created a bond. Both people were victims of the same event. That’s not what’s happening in an abusive relationship. Why “Therapy for Trauma Bonding” Can Be Misleading If you’re thinking about getting a therapist for trauma bonding, you may be trying to understand why you feel attached to someone who hurts you. But labeling your experience as a “bond” can unintentionally shift responsibility onto you. It can make it seem like: You’re choosing this connection You’re emotionally dependent in a way that’s your fault You need to “break your attachment” But what if the attachment isn’t something you created? What if he manufactured it? The Manufactured Relational Tether Instead of a trauma bond, what many women experience is something different: A manufactured relational tether. This happens he creates a cycle of: Chaos Confusion Emotional harm Intermittent relief He destabilizes you…then becomes the one who soothes you. Not because you chose it. But because it was engineered. It’s actually emotional abuse. To find out if you’re experiencing this, take my free emotional abuse test. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QleyqobSRCQ How to Break a Trauma Bond without Therapy If you’ve been told you need therapy for trauma bonding, you may feel… dependent on him, even when you don’t want to both drawn to him and repelled by him confused by his words vs. his actions frustrated with yourself for not “just leaving” like this must somehow be your fault relief when he’s kind—even if it’s brief That doesn’t mean you’re “bonded” to him. But it does mean that he’s lying to you by creating cycles of harm and relief. If you’re trying to heal from your marriage without therapy, there’s another way. I’ll share it with you below. 14 Signs You Don’t Need a Therapist for Trauma Bonding​ He withdraws, then gives affection when you’re distressed when he… isolates you from supportive people makes you doubt your perception of reality alternates between kindness and cruelty controls resources like money or access undermines your confidence creates problems he later “fixes” pushes your boundaries repeatedly positions himself as the victim uses other people to provoke insecurity gives approval only sometimes acts different in public vs. private promises change but doesn’t follow through blames you for his behavior witholds affection This isn’t a mutual bond. It’s a pattern of control. Why This Distinction Matters If you believe you’re “trauma bonded,” you may think, I need to heal myself to break this bond. But if what you’re experiencing is manipulation, then the path forward is different. You don’t need to fix yourself. You need clarity. One woman shared: “I thought I was the problem because I couldn’t detach. But once I understood the pattern, everything changed.” Moving Forward (Without Blaming Yourself) Here’s the think, I don’t think you need therapy for trauma bonding, but that doesn’t mean you don’t need support. You may need someone to help you: See the pattern clearly Understand emotional and psychological abuse Learn how to protect yourself Rebuild trust in your own perception At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, women learn how to step out of confusion and into clarity. And once you can see it clearly, you can begin to move forward—with truth, with support, and with your sense of self intact. So how do you break free… Open up to a safe person or safe group, check out my online trauma bond support group. Become educated about betrayal trauma and what causes it Practice radical self-care daily Take my Living Free Workshop. “Best information source for betrayal trauma. Instead of unhelpful trauma bonding examples, this gave me hope that I could move forward. Thank you, Anne, for writing this.“ Many women don’t realize how dangerous this type of manipulation is. In fact, experts who work with trafficking victims describe the exact same cycles: grooming confusion emotional dependency intermittent kindness fear of leaving hope that he’ll change
• How to Listen to a Podcast and Stay Undiscovered 10.03.2026 42Min.

  How do you listen to a podcast without your husband knowing? Here’s a step-by-step guide for women who need truth, privacy, and peace. Have you ever thought, “I need help, but I don’t want anyone to know I’m looking for it”? If so, this guide is for you. Maybe you’ve seen videos from Betrayal Trauma Recovery and want to dive deeper, but you’re not sure how do you listen to a podcast, or do it privately—especially if your husband shares your devices, tracks your history, or even works with you. Don’t worry. You’re not alone. And you don’t need to be tech-savvy to start. By the end of this article, you’ll know: What is a podcast? How do you listen to a podcast safely and privately. How to subscribe to a podcast, including the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast The best podcast apps for women in your situation When to listen to ensure you’re stay safe Why this podcast is different (and why it might change your life) Let’s get started. WHAT IS A PODCAST? At its core, a podcast is like an on-demand radio show you can listen to anytime, from anywhere—right on your phone, computer, or smart speaker. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast is a weekly show made for women who have just discovered her husband’s lies. Each episode is short (usually under 30 minutes), free to listen to, and 100% private. HOW TO LISTEN TO A PODCAST (IN 3 SIMPLE STEPS) You don’t need a computer science degree or a secret burner phone. Here’s how do you listen to a podcast without your husband knowing: STEP 1: CHOOSE A PODCAST APP If you have a smartphone, you’re already halfway there. For iPhone users: Open the Apple Podcasts app (already installed on your phone) OR download Spotify for free from the App Store For Android users: Download Spotify from the Play Store OR download Youtube Music from the Play Store This app is discreet, free, and don’t require you to sign in to start listening. STEP 2: SEARCH FOR THE PODCAST Open your app and search:“Betrayal Trauma Recovery”You’ll see our podcast cover (usually with Anne Blythe’s name on it). Tap it. Then tap “Follow” (or “Subscribe” depending on the app). STEP 3: HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: STREAM OR DOWNLOAD EPISODES You can stream episodes instantly (if you have Wi-Fi or data)ORTap the download icon (a little arrow pointing down) to save an episode for later. Once you’re done listening, you can delete it from the app. No trace. No history. 5 WAYS, HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST WITHOUT YOUR HUSBAND FINDING OUT Here are a few extra privacy tips for those in sensitive situations: 1. USE HEADPHONES OR AIRPODS Even a single earbud can let you listen during chores, errands, or lunch breaks—without drawing attention. 2. USE PRIVATE BROWSING Go to btr.org/podcast in an Incognito or Private browser window. That way, nothing gets saved to your search history. 3. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: DELETE YOUR LISTENING HISTORY On most podcast apps, you can delete your playback or download history manually. (Quick Google search: “how to delete podcast history [app name]”) 4. USE A HIDDEN APP FOLDER If you’re concerned about someone checking your apps, tuck Spotify or Apple Podcasts into a discreetly named folder—like “Utilities” or “Weather.” 5. USE BREAKS STRATEGICALLY Take a “walk to the mailbox” or a “cleaning the back room” break and press play. This is emotional self-care. BEST TIMES TO LISTEN TO A PODCAST (EVEN IF YOU’RE EXHAUSTED) You don’t need an hour. Or even need total silence. You just need some laundry to fold. Try listening during: Morning routine (shower, makeup, coffee) School drop-off or pickup Folding laundry or doing dishes Grocery shopping (one earbud in your hoodie) Late at night when the house is finally quiet Even 10 minutes can calm your nervous system and help you feel seen. HOW TO LEAVE A REVIEW (SO MORE WOMEN FIND HELP) If Betrayal Trauma Recovery has helped you feel less alone, consider leaving a short review. It helps other women—maybe even one sitting in a salon storage closet on her break—find the support she desperately needs. Just open the app, go to the podcast’s main page, scroll down, and tap “Write a Review.” THE PODCAST THAT COULD SAVE YOUR SANITY If you’re wondering what’s really going on in your marriage… Or you’ve been blamed for your trauma… If you’ve spent hundreds (or thousands) on therapy that only made things worse… Or your wondering how to recover after infidelity… Start here:🎧 Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast 🎧 It’s for women only. It’s free. And it just might be the first step toward clarity and peace. BONUS: NEED A QUICK PODCAST RECOMMENDATION? Try these listener favorites: The Best Betrayal Meditation To Heal From Infidelity My Husband Won’t Stop Lying To Me – Angel’s Story 3 Ways Your Husband May Be Gaslighting You with Dr. Robin Stern You can find all episodes at btr.org/podcast STILL WONDERING HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST? The truth is, you don’t need permission, a tech degree, or your husband’s blessing. You just need one quiet moment—and the right voice in your ear. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast is here when you’re ready. And we’ll be here as long as you need. TRANSCRIPT: HOW TO LISTEN TO A PODCAST AND STAY UNDISCOVERED Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’ll talk about how do you listen to a podcast and stay undiscovered as you seek help. We’re gonna call her Elinor after Elinor Dashwood from Sense and Sensibility. Welcome Elinor. Elinor: Hey, thanks so much for having me. I’m excited to be here. I found BTR on Instagram. And it really resonated with me. At that time. I was still with my husband. And I would listen to your podcast in my car when I was alone, and it helped me gain clarity about my situation. And start to put some words to the things I didn’t recognize I was experiencing. Anne: How long had you been married when you found BTR? Elinor: 21 years, so a long time. Anne: Yeah, and how many children do you have? Elinor: I have three children with him. Anne: Can you talk about the progression of what you thought was wrong, all the ways you tried to solve it or approach it before you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery and our support group? Elinor: So I guess I always knew he was controlling and wanted things a certain way. Before the pandemic, I started becoming more afraid of him. But things were worse and worse. I thought when the pandemic hit, our marriage was going to get better, because there we were all at home and we were gonna have all this time together, and I thought that would improve it. THINGS ESCALATED RAPIDLY Elinor: Things were really calm at first, but then escalated rapidly within the next few months. Before that, I hadn’t said a word to anybody. I had normalized it. So all kinds of horrific things were just a Tuesday for me. He had told me that we should keep any of our disagreements or problems just between us, and not even tell like our parents or anyone. He’s like, we just need to work this out together. That’s how you solve things. So that really silenced me from telling anyone. During the pandemic, I finally told someone, and they told me that I should speak to my bishop at that time. I was going to, and hadn’t yet, and ended up leaving for the first time. Just fleeing the house with my children, and my littlest didn’t even have her shoes on, and stayed with friends. At that point, I knew something was really wrong, but I didn’t understand. I hadn’t looked up any of this stuff. I hadn’t even searched something basic like, how do you listen to a podcast privately, because I didn’t know I was in an abusive situation. It happened that one of the counselors in my bishopric was a counselor. He talked to me about how I needed to set boundaries with my husband. I was like, oh, yes, that’s going to fix it. I’m going to set boundaries. I was so excited and I ended up coming back, because I was worried that I had ruined my marriage by leaving. And I was so afraid I’d done the wrong thing. I don’t know how to describe it, but I think people in such relationships understand. I felt like I had to be with him. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: SETTING FIRM BOUNDARIES Elinor: Now I realize because he had so belittled me and my opinion of myself, that I needed him to believe that I was worth something, to feel like I was worth something. Anne: That counselor in the Bishopric after that first time you had fled. Did he say, like “You can go back as long as you set boundaries”? Can you talk more about that? Elinor: He was like, if you want to work things out, you’ll have to set very firm boundaries. I had gone back. Right away, the bishop reached out to me. I started telling him all about what was going on, and he immediately called it out as abuse. Which I understand now from a lot of other people’s experiences is rare. And I’m really grateful. Because I didn’t wanna believe myself. Because if it was abuse, I had to change my whole life. Anne: You don’t have to change, but you may need to alter your situation. Elinor: Yes, drastically. Anne: Which is daunting. Elinor: I’d met him right after my 18th birthday. He was my first serious relationship and I didn’t have a lot to compare that relationship to, which now I tell my children, date a lot. Date that person for a long time before you get engaged to them. We dated for a few weeks, and he was quite a bit older than I was. He was seven years older, and he seemed so confident and charismatic. I thought this was like true love, and he was wonderful. I see now, he was abusive from the get go, but I didn’t recognize the red flags when they were glaring in my face. MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY DIDN’T LIKE HIM Anne: Yeah, how did he present to other people? Did they think he was a good guy? Elinor: I thought they did at first. But I can say that now that I’m out on this side and have talked to a couple of friends, they did not like him. My parents did not like him. My dad said he is a very proud man, which was strong verbiage from my dad, who’s a very gentle soul. Anne: That’s as intense as your dad would get. I think when someone’s married to someone, they don’t wanna throw someone’s spouse under the bus. ‘Cause it’s like, how is that going to help her to think her husband’s a jerk? And I’m like, it would help her. I promise it would help her. They also don’t wanna alienate her. Because they think if you say your husband is a jerk, that you’ll be like, well, then I’m not gonna talk to you. And so it’s a really hard place to be for an outsider. To wanna support your marriage, but then also want to support you. It’s really hard to figure that out. For women in situations like yours finding out how do you listen to a podcast safely and getting the right information is vital. How did you feel finding out that other people didn’t like him? Elinor: In some ways I wish they had told me, but I see for myself that I wouldn’t have believed them at the time. I was so excited about my new husband, and I thought everything was so wonderful. If they had told me he was a bad guy, I would not have listened, and I would’ve been like, something’s wrong with them. They think so badly of him. THE CONSTANT HAMSTER WHEEL OF PROVING MYSELF Anne: They’re so judgmental. Something like that, maybe. Especially if he’s set that up. A lot of abusers like this, they’ll say something like, people don’t understand me. Or, people are so judgmental. They see that I do this thing, and they assume I’m a jerk, but I’m a good guy. They set it up like this on purpose. We don’t know that, because they’re lying. And if anybody says that, then you’re like, oh yeah, he warned me that people were gonna say this. Elinor: Yes, he said he’d had other relationships before, and he felt like trust was a big deal. And right away he was like, it’s important to me that you trust me implicitly. And now I know trust is to be earned. But when I was so young, I just thought, oh, I need to show him how I trust him. And that became several decades of me trying to prove that I trusted him. I think some hallmarks of the marriage were, kindness must be earned. Which is absolutely wrong, he was always carroting things out. If you do this and this, then I’ll do this. I felt like I was on this constant hamster wheel of proving myself, proving I loved him. He would often use the term, if you love me. If, that is insidious if. Anne: One of the message strategies in the Betrayal Trauma Workshop Is to agree. I love it in this scenario, because of course, he’s gonna say, “you don’t love me. If you love me, you would…” They do that to manipulate us, but we don’t realize that. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST WHEN COUPLE THERAPY ISN’T AN OPTION Anne: So if he says, “You don’t love me.” When we agree and say, “That’s a good point. I hadn’t thought about that. Let me think about that for a little while. Thanks for bringing that up.” It changes the whole dynamic. Because then it’s hard for them to manipulate you. When you don’t respect me. “I don’t? Oh, I might not.” Elinor: It flips the tables, doesn’t it? Anne: We respect them with our actions, because we’re deferring to them and making sure dinner’s ready. When he says, “You don’t respect me,” we’re thinking, “of course I do. I clean up the house. I tell people nice things about you.” Because of all your actions, you respect him, but in your mind, something’s wrong. In our minds, we’re suspicious. They know how to use that Catch 22 against us. And that’s why safe, private access to information matters so much. Some women are still at the stage of quietly asking, “how do you listen to a podcast” because they need help, but they also need to stay undiscovered.Did you guys ever try couple therapy? Elinor: No, I knew inside my head that it would not work for us. He had told me, “The only way I would ever go to couple therapy with you would be for the couple therapist to tell me that I should divorce you.” Anne: Wow, so he didn’t wanna go to couple therapy. The way he manipulated you to not go, which actually worked in your favor, you just didn’t know that. ‘Cause the couple therapy would’ve been worse. But was to say, we’re going to couple therapy, and the couple therapist will tell me to divorce you. And that was his way to manipulate you not to go to couple therapy. Elinor: Uh-huh. DISCOVERING SIGNS OF ADDICTION Anne: Wow, I have never heard that one before, by the way. That’s a new one. Were you aware of pornography use, affairs? Elinor: When I finally told someone about his behavior, they were like, “Oh, have you asked is pornography an issue?” So he’s staying up super late. His door’s always closed. He’s upset, all the classic hallmarks. And I was like, oh, of course he’s not. But I’ll ask him just in case. Anne: Whenever someone says, “Did you talk to him about?” I’m like, they’re going to lie. So don’t ever tell someone, did you ask him about pornography? That’s never gonna help. But you didn’t know that at the time. So you asked him? Elinor: He’s like, “Oh yeah, I did look at pornography. Sometimes I do that, but it’s not a big deal.” And I was like, “Well, when did you start doing that? Has it been going on during our marriage?” It sounded like from his description, the entire marriage. And then I was starting to be worried, “So maybe is a portion of our marriage you didn’t use pornography? Is there maybe a gap somewhere that I could base the behavior with the behavior without?” He mentioned one 18 month gap in the entire 20 something years of marriage where he hadn’t used. And I was like, “That sounds like an addiction.” And he was like, “Oh no, it’s not addiction. I could quit anytime.” HE WAS PROUD THAT HE KEPT ME FROM SEEING THE TRUTH Elinor: And then I knew it was. I’m like you could quit anytime, right? So why haven’t you? I didn’t ask him that. At that point. I was like, oh wow, we’ve got a deep addiction here. I didn’t see anything he used. He was proud that I never saw anything. I remember asking him, ” Where are you looking at these things? Like where are you finding them?” And he was like, “You’ll never find out.” He had that little side smirk smile. And I never did, but that just sickened my soul. When he gave that answer, he was proud of it. And he was not sorry. He was not in any way taking any responsibility for its effect on anyone else. And he never did. I realized I needed to know how do you listen to a podcast undiscovered, for my emotional safety. I thought maybe if we solved the “pornography” problem, our relationship would improve. Now I have something to point at, oh, it’s this. That’s what the problem is. And as I talked to my bishop about it, I remember sitting in his office just shaking and shaking. That shook my whole world, ’cause I believed he was faithful to me. I consider pornography deeply unfaithful. Anne: My book is coming out soon, explaining why he was lying all the time to everyone and proud of it. And probably because he was such a liar, he was doing other things that you didn’t find out about either. That you may find out later. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: WHEN HE PULLS YOU BACK IN Anne: Are you divorced now? Elinor: I’m still in process. Yeah, it’s gonna be long and ugly. Anne: Those of us who have been divorced for a long time. It’s almost been 10 years for me right now. We find out stuff like years later, it’s pretty crazy. You’re like, what? I thought this was what was happening, and then you find out somehow that it was something different. It’s like the truth finds you. I bet you’ll find out a lot more as things progress. When you know how do you listen to a podcast for help. Elinor: I read it takes an average of seven times to leave an abusive relationship, and how there’s just gravity that sucks you back in the hoovering, right? But when I read about that, I thought it would never be me. I wouldn’t go and come back and go and come back, but oh my goodness, it was me and the “hopium” that things were going to change, that it was going to get better. It really pulled me back. The first time I left, I was gone for three days and then, okay, so this is terrifying. He hunted me down and found us in a different town, which is super creepy. I didn’t immediately go back. And he was like, I am so sorry. Which is a big deal, because the rest of my marriage, he was never sorry, never. Things happened, he would make me apologize for it. I would beg, there would be silent treatments. I would have to do physical punishments to make up for it, and we never talked about it. So they just got shoved in the back of my mind, all the horrible things that happened. IT WAS BETTER FOR TWO WEEKS Elinor: There was no acknowledgement. When I left the first time, he was down on his knees when he found me and said, “Oh my goodness, I’m so sorry.” I was like, oh, wow, he finally admits he’s been so angry and so crazy, and life has been horrendous, and the children are afraid, and I am afraid. And he was like, everything’s gonna be so much better. He of course promised the whole world, I believed him. I went back the next day after talking to my clergy and trying to set some boundaries. And the next two weeks were amazing. He was so great. I was like, wow, this has changed. Our marriage is gonna be so much better. And it was better for two weeks. And then it was worse than ever. These stories you read about where people say, “Oh, if you go back, it’s gonna be worse.” I can 100% testify if you leave and come back, it’s going to be worse. I left and went back three times, and it was definitely horribly worse each time. And each time there was a section of time where he was so much nicer for a little while, and then he would make me pay for it later. It was just sickeningly awful. I kept my bag packed, because my friend had warned me sometimes this behavior doesn’t keep. Sometimes they don’t change. They just want you to believe they’re gonna change. Oh my goodness. It didn’t keep, and I started not being able to sleep, not being able to eat. I LEFT again, but MISSED HIM AND WANTED TO GO BACK Elinor: Probably the knowledge of just finding out my husband has been using pornography for 20 years, like the sickening awareness that my husband was betraying me for so long. Then I left again, because his behavior was horrifying, and he actively tried to turn the children against me. I flew home to my parents. That time when I left, my bishop’s wife actually came and helped us leave. We escaped down the basement door during a rainstorm. It was pretty traumatic, especially for the children. I needed help. I learned how do you listen to a podcast and stay undiscovered, for our safety. After learning more I thought, well, I’ll never come back. I stayed with my family and missed him. Then I started second guessing myself on everything. I thought, oh, I’ve just misunderstood things. He always told me I misunderstood things and that I was stupid. Lots of things don’t make sense to me because of the way I am. That’s what he would say. Only I know that’s not so now, but I wanted to go back. At that point my oldest child would not come back with me. She was like, Mom, don’t go back to him. And I was like, but we need to keep our family together. And she sat in the bathroom and cried for two hours and wouldn’t come out. I should have learned more from that. But I thought, “well, we’re gonna make this so much better.” But no, she never did come back. She was 18 and she just lived on her own after that. Which must have been so incredibly hard, and my heart breaks for her. She knew she would write me, and say, “Mom, when you’re ready, come be with me.” HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: WHEN HE’S STILL ABUSIVE Anne: I think what was happening was all the abuse was still in your head. And you didn’t know that it wasn’t your own thoughts, it was all his abuse, and he was still abusing you. Elinor: Yes. Anne: Even though you were away from him. People don’t understand that. You’re still being abused. So it takes a while for the abuse to drain out of your head, and you have to be away from it in order for that to happen. It wasn’t that you weren’t ready. You hadn’t learned to separate that out. You were in the early stages of learning safety steps like, how do you listen to a podcast and find help online. And the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, has a way to write down what your thoughts are, and then to realize they’re actually not your thoughts. They’re the abuser’s thoughts. That’s helpful for victims. This story haunts me. And the way I came up with some of these workshop strategies comes from this. A woman was like, I will separate from my husband. I feel right about it. She’d prayed about it a ton. She could see all the abuse. She was like, check, check, check. He’s abusive. And she went to the temple, and she came out and said, the spirit told me I needed to stay with him. Elinor: Oh my gosh. Anne: She felt so strongly about it. And I was like, who am I to say that’s not the spirit? But I started wondering, why are women thinking that the spirit tells them to stay in proximity to evil? And then, over time, I realized it’s because the abuser’s abuse is so tangled up in their head that everything feels bad. THE THOUGHT OF LEAVING FEELS TERRIBLE Anne: So when they think about leaving him, it feels really bad, and that doesn’t feel like the spirit. It feels like something else. So you’re like, every time I think about leaving, I feel terrible. And so those who want to follow the spirit and the spirit is peace. The spirit is calm. When we think about leaving, it doesn’t feel peaceful. It doesn’t feel calm. And nobody warns you about that. They’re like, follow the spirit. And you’re like, “Okay, well the spirit is not telling me to leave. ‘Cause every time I think about leaving, my body’s like, no, that’s not right.” And your alarm system is going off. Really what’s happening is your alarm system is going off. It’s telling you danger, danger, danger. But he hijacked it long ago. And so he’s twisted your own internal warning system to tell you to move closer to him rather than away. So you’re just trying to do what the “spirit” is telling you to do, in that moment. So to help explain it to a woman when she’s in that, is what the Betrayal Trauma Workshop is about. Something as simple as learning how do you listen to a podcast safely, can lead to finding help. Yeah, so that she can see the difference between his lies and her actual warning system and what it’s been warning her about. Because they’re so good at manipulating us that they know how to use even our own survival mechanisms against us. Elinor: That is so true, that feels really true to me. IT FELT WRONG TO BREAK UP OUR MARRIAGE Anne: Yeah, so you weren’t doing anything wrong. You just didn’t know what you didn’t know, and you didn’t wanna go against what you thought in the moment was the truth. Elinor: Yeah, definitely, it felt wrong to break up our marriage. I still hadn’t fully admitted to myself how deeply abusive he was. And I kept thinking, oh, we’re gonna make this better. I was so beaten down about every aspect of myself because of all the things he said and did. That I didn’t know who I would be without him. And in my mind, believed that without him, I was lost and worthless. Which obviously is not true. But I felt that way at the time. So I went back and then I stayed there with him for the next year and a half. And my bishop kept checking in on me. People would check in on me, like people knew it wasn’t good, and they were trying to help me, but I wouldn’t go. ‘Cause I’m like, this is my marriage. I’m going to save it somehow. I studied all sorts of psychology things, like I wondered what sort of disorder he might have. Went down all the rabbit holes and had to stop. I left again the third time with my parents’ help, rented a house and lived separately. and stayed separate from him for a couple of months. I actually had a protective order for a few weeks, trying to keep us separate and safe. He was doing all sorts of things, psychologically and spiritually. Just on every single level of abuse. The Moment I Realized How Bad It Really Was Elinor: I had started keeping a journal for my own sanity about what was happening. And I’m glad I did, because one of the things I told myself was, oh, he’s not doing these things very often. But when I started writing it down, I realized he was grabbing me by the throat every two weeks. Every two weeks he would do that, and he had groomed me for this. He just groomed me probably on every level. Learning how do you listen to a podcast and finding yours was so helpful. But with this whole throat grabbing, he would call it holding my throat. Obviously, this is choking, right? But that’s what I would call it. He holds my throat. And when I would tell people about it, they would just be horrified. But to me it was another Tuesday. When he would grab my throat, he would make me say things and do things. And obviously when someone is holding your throat, you just do what they say. And he would make me repeat things. He would say, “Tell me that I own you.” and I would have to repeat these horrible things. And before I left the third time, it was becoming so overt. He was like, “Tell me about how stupid you are. How stupid are you? Go ahead, humble yourself. Say it out loud.” And I would mumble out the words, because it sickened me. It felt so wrong. And I would say, ‘I’m stupid.” He would say, “Go on, say it a little louder. I couldn’t hear you.” And I would say, “I’m stupid.” He was like, “Go on, say it like you mean it.” I would find myself repeating these horrible things over and over and over again. HOW TO LISTEN TO A PODCAST AND PROTECT YOURSELF Elinor: The psychological abuse is so disturbing. Then right before I left with that protective order, I woke up one night and he was holding me by the throat while I was sleeping. It was hard to breathe, and I just laid there, stock still. I think if anyone else had been in this situation. They would be screaming and like, oh, let go of me, stop it and you have this reaction. But I had been in this so long, I knew I must hold very still. I must not say a word. And then hopefully he will let go, because I knew if I tried to fight against it, it would get worse. Anne: I disagree with you, anyone who’s been through what you had been through would’ve stayed still too. Elinor: Okay. Anne: A hundred percent. What you did sounds totally normal under the circumstances. We know about abuse, and share it so others can learn. Elinor: That’s self preservation. Anne: Yes. Elinor: A lot of the things that I did sound so wackadoo to me now, like they just sound like nonsense. But I appreciate that you understand that’s exactly what you have to do in those circumstances. Just to stay safe. Anne: Yeah, to survive. Elinor: Yeah, my children sometimes talk about how people say, “Oh, you should have done this and you should have done that.” And they’re like, “Sometimes you say it too, Mom, now that we’re out. Like, if I was there again, I would’ve done this, or I wouldn’t have done that.” And they said, “No, we never would’ve, because we all knew it was going to get worse. We all felt that undercurrent of like he was holding back.” I HADN’T RECOGNIZED PHYSICAL ABUSE Anne: That is the manipulation. I think people don’t understand that is the abuse. That you know instinctively that you can’t do that or you’re going to be very injured. Anybody would do that. I look back at what I did and think, what is wrong with me? I would do the opposite. He’d be physically intimidating, like he was gonna punch me in the face, and in my mind I’d be like, let’s see if I could make him punch me in the face. And so I’d push through it. I thought, if he punched me, I would know. Elinor: Yeah. Anne: So I’m pushing through, and he never punched me in the face. So then I was confused. Wait, I guess he’s not abusive. That’s the hard part about it. He could punch you in the face. He could not punch you in the face. Either way, it’s abuse. Elinor: That was one of the things I recognized from your podcast. When I learned how do you listen to a podcast safely, different kinds of things surfaced that I hadn’t recognized were physical abuse. Obviously the throat holding, but like there was a ton of sexual abuse and coercion that I had not put in the physical abuse box. I think many people do this. I categorized, punching and hitting, and like, oh, he pushed me down the steps. That would be physical abuse. But there were so many other things he did that were physical abuse that I learned from listening to you and the people on your podcast. That I was like, oh he’s doing all these things and more. He is physically abusive. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST FOR SAFETY WHEN SYSTEMS FAIL Elinor: Like it’s not when he’s gonna be physically abusive. He is now, and he doesn’t always need to get to the next point for me to step in line with what he wants. He just does as much as he needs to, to control me. Which was very effective. Anne: Yeah, it’s scary. Elinor: Yeah, I feel really blessed that we are on this side of it now. I’m glad I know, I’m glad I do not have the desire to ever go back. The third time I left with a protective order. Both times my protective orders failed. I’d have ’em for a couple weeks, and then I would go for the full protective order, and I could not give enough evidence to prove what had happened to me in the eyes of law. And that was so frustrating and demoralizing for me, because all these physically abusive and terribly scary things were happening. But during a six hour court hearing. There just wasn’t enough evidence, the judge said, to bring a protective order against him. And of course, he was so good at presenting himself. He came in not looking like the “abuser”. He presents like a first class citizen, well educated, active in his church and a pillar to the community. And it was so believable that the judge was like, well, he seems like a great guy, and you seem like a great person, and you guys just need to work it out. And that was so heartbreaking for me to tell my story in court in front of other people and policemen, and just such a terrifying environment. Your podcast and learning how do you listen to a podcast would have helped me. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST FOR SUPPORT WHEN YOU AREN’T BELIEVED Anne: And have them not believe you. Learning how do you listen to a podcast and finding ours for support could have helped prepare you. Elinor: Not believe me. Anne: That is a nightmare. Elinor: Yes, and to do that twice and still not be believed. I was grateful at the end of the first court hearing, not joking, six hours. There was a recess for lunch in the middle, it went on so long. The lawyer had told me they averaged 10 to 20 minutes, and I sat through several, and that is how they average six hours. At the end, after the judge dismissed it, and I am just in tears. This lady had to sit through all my court, came up to me, and she was like, I wanna tell you something. I believe you.” That meant the world to me to have her believe me. Because at that point, it’s hard enough to believe myself. It’s hard enough to get up there on the stand and be cross examined, but to have the judge throw it out. The second one was three hours. I knew it would be long. Anne: Was it the same judge? Elinor: Different judge, different state. Anne: What? Elinor: He presents so well. He is so believable, so charismatic, and he knows how to present himself as this wonderful guy. Anne: Also, his abuse of you doesn’t leave marks. I mean, he might, “hold your throat”, but it didn’t leave a bruise. Elinor: ‘Cause he knew when to stop. everything was behind closed doors. There was never a mark, like you said, there was nothing to go to show someone. FLEEING THE HOUSE FOR THE LAST TIME Elinor: I remember my daughter at one point telling me, “Mom, I just wish he would hit you. I don’t want you to be hit.” But she was like, “What can we say that he’s doing? If he hit you, we could say he hit you, but everything else he does is right at the edge.” She was like, “I wanna call the police, but I don’t know what I would say when they got here.” And we all know he would’ve just turned the tables on me entirely. Anne: A hundred percent. Elinor: After the protective order failed, we ended up fleeing the house with a couple of suitcases and our library books. Which I was somehow worried were gonna be overdue. That’s my brain. We lived in hiding and started the whole court process, which is an absolute nightmare. The post separation abuse, the court abuse, it’s like a stress ball. You squeeze it one way, it’s gonna come out somewhere else. His abuse just pops up in all sorts of creative ways, he just doesn’t stop. Learning how do you listen to a podcast helped keep me focused on our safety. The children in two years have not been able to access their clothes, their toys. There’s a court order saying we should be able to go get our stuff. He placed logs across the driveway, so we couldn’t drive up. I hope to be divorced from him someday. I’m glad to hear that you are now 10 years divorced from your abuser. I hope for that for myself and my children too. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: THE LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL Anne: There’s a light at the end of the tunnel, and when people told me that, I was very mad. Because it didn’t feel like that. I was like, my whole life is ruined. I will be in this tunnel the rest of my life. Then post-divorce, when I experienced continued emotional and psychological abuse, due to his “co-parenting”. Take our free emotional abuse test to determine if you are being abused. So I was divorced, and he was still wreaking absolute havoc on my life and my children’s life. It felt like torture. I’d say in my case, and I want to stand up for abuse victims everywhere. ‘Cause you did the right thing. Teach people how do you listen to a podcast to get help. You thought you should do at the time, and it makes total sense. You’re trying to survive. But to outsiders, they’re like, why did she do that? In my case, I did everything right. So for me, I always fought him. Or I was like, no, you’re not doing that to me. I did everything “the right way”. So an outsider wouldn’t be like, “Well, why did you do that?” Because I did everything right. The weird thing is they blame you for it, even if you do it right. So it’s a trap either way, because I got a protective order and kept it and didn’t break it, and the second it was going to expire, I got another one. So I had a six year protective order that he was still able to abuse me via co-parenting messages. When I went to court to try to take custody away. I had 40 pages of documented physical abuse and other abuse. It didn’t make a difference. IT DOESN’T MATTER IF YOU DO EVERYTHING “RIGHT” Anne: So being the person who “did everything right” and still couldn’t get help. That’s why I’m like, I have to stand up for abuse victims all over. Because it doesn’t matter if you’re doing everything “right”. The victims who are not doing it the way other people think they should. That’s not why they’re being abused. It’s still not their fault. It has nothing to do with them. So the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop really came out of my absolute frustration that somebody like me could do everything right and still be forced to be abused by the court system. The system was supposed to protect me. ‘Cause at some point I was like, God is the only way out of this. As a Christian, I was like, Christ is the deliverer. As I studied deliverance and the scriptures, the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Strategies came out of that. And for women who aren’t women of faith, these are secular strategies that work no matter what, and people don’t have to pray for them to work. They work great, period. ‘Cause a lot of women have been really spiritually abused, and they don’t wanna pray. And I don’t blame them. So I’m like, these work no matter what. You can learn how do you listen to a podcast and get help. That’s where the strategies came from, and they delivered me completely. He signed the kids away. In some cases, they don’t actually physically sign the rights to the kids away. He did out of court, but some of ’em just start leaving you alone. I don’t ever recommend that women take men like this to court if they’re not in court already. You’ll see when you take it. Elinor: Glad to hear that. HE CONTINUES TO DRAG THIS OUT Anne: ‘Cause court usually works in their favor. Even if you win after five years and spend $250,000. That’s not a win. You were just abused for two more years, and you’re in debt, like you just bought a house that’s not a house. Elinor: The lawyer bought a house. Anne: Exactly. Elinor: I participate in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, because I definitely need extra tips. Like right now in this legal side of it, I am drowning. Last year, I felt so hopeful, just finally being away. The gratitude and freedom like not missing him was so awesome. And this year, I thought we’d be divorced by now. I thought I would be free in more ways. And, oh no, that’s not his plan. He will continue to drag this out. So I am really glad to hear about more tips. I need them. Anne: Would you mind coming back? And let me know how it’s going. Elinor: I would love to. Anne: For women who are maybe listening, like you did in your car, if someone’s listening and maybe they’re in the same boat you were, where their body is screaming out, don’t leave. That seems really unsafe. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: I KEPT PRAYING FOR CLARITY Anne: Do you have any words to share with them? Elinor: I appreciated the things you shared when I knew how do you listen to a podcast and listened to yours about asking yourself, are you safe? And getting yourself to a safe place before you make that decision about them. That helped me. I started asking myself, am I safe? Am I in a place where I can feel peaceful enough to get an answer? It was so crazy in my home. I kept praying for clarity, but you can’t get clarity in that kind of situation. I just kept praying and praying, and it just didn’t come. When I finally did leave, that’s when the clarity came. I look back now and I’m like, I just wanna give myself a huge hug and be like, girl, it is okay. You didn’t know what you didn’t know, and you did the best you could with what you had then. And you wanted to keep your kids’ lives together and keep them safe. One of the things that I read somewhere that really helped me make the decision to go though, was that children witnessing domestic violence is child abuse. That was really powerful for me, and I was like, oh my gosh, my poor children. There was so much behind closed doors, but they could feel it. The things that I hear from them now about what they felt and what they saw and heard that I didn’t think they had experienced, oh, my heart for these little ones. IT’S HARD TO KNOW WHAT TO DO Elinor: I wish I could just give all the people experiencing the kinds of things that I’ve experienced and many other women have experienced. I wanna give them a huge hug and say, it’s going to be all right. And ask them to be kind to themselves. Because we’re second guessing, we’re living in such fear. It’s hard to know what to do. I’m just looking back on myself and giving myself a lot of grace and saying, “You did great. You left, good job.” Anne: Yeah, and I think it helps women to hear somebody like me say, I did everything right and still couldn’t get out. If you know how do you listen to a podcast, you can hear other’s stories. Elinor: Oh my gosh, yes. Anne: Because then it’s like, oh, it wouldn’t have mattered how I acted. He was going to abuse me, and the way the system is, the way everything is getting to safety, is very difficult and miraculous. So there’s nothing that any of us could have done better under the circumstances. At the same time, there are some principles that had we known them. But nobody tells us. So it’s still not our fault. We didn’t learn about it in high school. We didn’t learn about it in college. There is no therapist out there. That has the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Strategies. I’ve never heard anybody say it. It’s not anything like I’ve ever heard. ‘Cause all anybody else has is don’t talk to him at all, and you’re forced to talk to him. So that’s not helpful. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST LED ME TO THE LIGHT Anne: And, communicate better. Elinor: Oh yeah, the communicate better is such a bunch of garbage. When you’re dealing with this kind of person who’s going to use all communications against you. Anne: Yeah, so either way it’s a disaster. Well, I’m proud of you. You are brave and strong. And you’re incredible. There is a light at the end of the tunnel for you, even if it feels like there’s not. I always have to say that. ‘Cause every time somebody said that to me, I was so mad at them that I was really frustrated and wanted to tell them they didn’t know what they were talking about. If you’re feeling like that, I totally get it. And in that case, I’ll just sit here in the dark with you. It’s okay. People may recommend listening to a podcast, and you may not know how do you listen to a podcast, but taking that first step could be the one thing that helps the most. Elinor: Thank you so much. Anne: Until the light comes to you. Elinor: Thank you, Anne: Thank you so much. Elinor: Thanks for having me.
• How To Know The Signs Husband Is Controlling in Marriage 03.03.2026 38Min.

  When most people hear the word “controlling,” they imagine something obvious, like intimidation, yelling, locking doors, or constant threats. But often, the hidden signs husband is controlling your life are much quieter, even ordinary. They show up as concern, charm, or “helpfulness.” And sometimes, the most confusing part is this: a controlling husband may accuse you of being the controlling one. He twists reality until you start questioning your own motives, wondering if maybe he’s right. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take our free emotional abuse quiz. By the time the patterns become clear, many women already feel stuck—trapped between who they were told he was and who he’s revealed himself to be. What Are The Signs A Husband Is Controlling? 7 Questions to Ask If your husband has ever accused you of being controlling, it’s likely that he’s the one controlling. So before I get to our guest interview, here are seven questions to help you uncover the signs husband is controlling. Does his version of romance mean, he’s just pressuring you? When you raise concerns, does he dismiss these concerns or maybe blame shift or play the victim? When you say no, does he push past it, punish you, or guilt you so that you give in? Does he lean on you to carry his load, so much that you have to put your own load on the back burner. Do his kind gestures or gifts come with strings attached? Does he act like two different people: kind in public, but demeaning in private? Have you noticed your world shrinking? Less time for hobbies, friends, family, any outside support? Control is a domestic abuse issue, so it’s not about just one incident. The key is to look for patterns over time. If you see signs husband is controlling you and need live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today. Transcript: How To Know If Your Husband Is Controlling in Marriage Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Candace. Candace felt nervous, so she actually prepared a written version of her story. She’s going to read sometimes, and then sometimes I’ll ask her questions. Here’s a poignant part of her story that illustrates the signs husband is controlling her. Candace: Before I knew him, he worked at the library on campus, and looked up my information on the library database, my phone number, and where I lived. He drove by my house with the excuse he had come to town for a haircut. I would say that was stalking. He would then quote Bible verses to me that a wife’s body is not her own. A wife needs to submit to her husband. I felt sick to my stomach, started questioning my own sanity, and said to myself, I’m broken. Anne: We will get to that part of her story in just a minute. Welcome, Candace. Candace: Thank you, Anne for having me. Anne: So Candace, let’s start at the beginning. How did you feel about your husband when you first met him? Candace: We met at college in my second year, and he knew me before I knew him, because he worked at the library on campus. He looked up my information on the library database, my phone number, and where I lived. Once he found my information and I was in his sight, as a good catch. He drove by my house with the excuse later he had come to town for a haircut. I would say that was stalking. In my gut, I did not want to date him, and when he first asked me out, I said no. Early Signs husband is Controlling in Dating: When Romance Comes with Pressure Candace: But the next time he asked me, he asked me for a coffee, and I said, “You need to ask my dad.” Thinking my dad would say no, and that would be the end of it. My parents raised me in a Christian home, it was kind of implied. You needed to make sure the guy asked your dad before you went out. My dad said yes, Anne: Was there something about him that you thought your dad would say, she can’t go out with this guy? Candace: In the past, I had dated some other guys, and my dad was like, no, that one’s not good. So I’m thinking my dad’s just gonna say no, and it’ll be the end of it. And I won’t have to worry about it. But my husband was a very smooth guy, and he fooled us all. When my dad met him. He thought he was a professor, a smart person and stuff. We started dating, and I began to think this is my one chance. No other guy would want me, so I better go for it. He checks all the boxes. He’s a Christian, he’s nice to me. He loves me. He’s kind, and he would come to my work and leave notes on my car. We would go to the movies. We would hang out with my friend and family. I didn’t know to look for signs husband is controlling. When we played games. he was always very attentive and wanted to do everything with me. Then one time he invited me to his house. He was renting while still in college. And he made me supper. Then afterwards, we started watching a movie. He jumped on top of me, and I thought two things. Confessions and False Hope: Signs Husband Is Controlling Before Marriage Candace: One, get off me. I just want to watch the movie. And two, but he made me supper, so I better be good. I felt I couldn’t say no to his advances. Our clothes stayed on, but I still felt so violated after that. We dated for about a year. Then we were engaged for 10 months. My soon-to-be husband confessed an addiction to pornography before we married. Beginning when he was a teenager, looking at images on his computer. But he assured me that once we married, that would go away. Because there would be no more guilt, since he had a wife and could have all the sex he wanted. I remember going to my mom and telling her about what he confessed to me. I remember her saying to me, “It would be something that I would have to deal with for the rest of my life. And was I ready to do that?” I wasn’t even sure what it meant, so I said yes, I can do this. He loves me and it’ll be okay. I soon found out that no matter how much sex I gave my husband, he was still struggling with pornography. I would say the more sex I gave him, the more he got into the pornography, and he was good at keeping it a secret from me. He was very smart and very technical. He built his own computer, so he knew all the tricks to wipe his computer of his history going to these pornography sites. From Compliance to Control: The Patterns That Shaped Me Candace: In the first few months of our marriage, My husband confessed to me. He had fallen into temptation on his computer. I said, why would you do that when I was in the bed next to you? You could just ask me and I would give you sex. I grew up in a Christian home, went to church every Sunday. My parents homeschooled my siblings and me. We lived a pretty sheltered life. We were not a touchy feely sort of family. I knew they loved me and never doubted it. I was a very compliant child who always helped everyone, especially my mom raising my younger siblings. And I was a mom to my two youngest siblings and was good at doing the laundry, cleaning and making meals. One thing that stands out for me about my childhood is that I wasn’t allowed to show my feelings. If I was angry or sad, I was told to go to my room until I had a better attitude. So going into my marriage, I was always very compliant, didn’t complain, and if something needed to be done, I would do it. I thought I was not that smart or worthy, so I should be thankful that my husband picked me. But if I looked back and thought about it, I had put myself and my brother through college. I had a job, my own car and insurance, and no debt. My dream was to always be a mom to homeschool my kids. I married for that and wanted that the whole first year into my marriage. I think it was a few weeks after the honeymoon, when my in-laws came to my husband one day and said I needed birth control. Was this evidence of signs husband is controlling? Signs Husband is Controlling You Through Rage, Manipulation, and Fear Candace: This would be too much for my husband if we had a child right away. I did not listen to them, and I got pregnant early in our first year of marriage. I miscarried in October, about 10 weeks along in my pregnancy, and I felt devastated and blamed myself. My husband was happy that I had miscarried. He didn’t have to feed and care for another person, and that hurt me all the more. My miscarriage, my husband’s rage started to come out. Rage is one of the other signs husband is controlling. I don’t remember what the fights were about, but one time he was angry about something, to the point where he was about to put his hands around my neck to choke me. Another time early into our marriage. I was so scared of his rage that I locked myself in the bathroom and called his parents to come. Once they arrived, my husband is sitting at the piano playing as if nothing would ever happen. My husband got fired from his job. His story was that he got angry about having to work late, so he did something to one of the work vehicles so it wouldn’t start. Another event that stands out in my mind while we were living in the trailer park with our neighbor beside us didn’t like us for whatever reason, and one day I decided to go over with a tin of cookies as a peace offering. My husband came with me. We went up to the door. My husband knocked, and the neighbor didn’t come to the door. So my husband yells, I know you’re in there. The neighbor answers the door, and I hand the cookies over and say something nice. When Others See The Signs Husband Is Controlling Candace: I don’t remember what my husband says, but the neighbor takes offense and closes the door in my husband’s face. At this point, he’s angry and bangs on the door. The neighbor opens the door and tells me to get my husband off their porch. All I could think was what just happened? And why did my husband become so angry? Anne: If you had to guess right now, what would you say happened with the neighbors? Candace: I think she knew something was off with my husband. She, from the get go, did not like us living beside her and renting. And if he had his vehicle over on a little patch of a grass, she would yell at him. I don’t know if she was in tune with that. Anne: Or maybe she’d caught him looking in her window? So he had told you he had a thing with pornography. Did he end up going to a program? Candace: So my husband decided to get help for his pornography addiction. Pornography is one of the signs husband is controlling. He joined an online men’s program specifically, and he had a mentor in that program. He also talked to our pastor about it, so our pastor was aware of it as well. And we also had an older couple in our church that mentored both of us. I’ll never forget, she said, “Just give your husband more sex. Why are you withholding that from your husband?” Once our fourth child was born, I went into deep baby blues, and one night I had just finished nursing and headed back to bed. At 4:45 in the morning, my husband wanted sex and just raped me. When Signs husband is Controlling Intensify Behind Closed Doors Candace: For years after, he would make jokes about it, saying 4:45, 4:45. I didn’t think it was rape at the time, I thought it was my wifely duty to make sure my husband got sex whenever he wanted. I felt used and dirty, I did not understand it at all. But in my body, I knew something wasn’t right. I discovered that anything I did tell him, he would save and then pull it out again whenever it suited him. This lack of respect for me was one of the signs hisband is controlling. We started having more fights, and it was usually around me not communicating right. He started to see a therapist for his depression, but also for our marriage. Since I didn’t communicate properly. Anne: Oh, my word, I’m so sorry. I hear these stories every day, and it’s still heartbreaking every time. It’s awful. When he started seeing the therapist, was this his idea? Candace: It was his idea, yes. Anne: As you’re sharing your story, I think many women think, well, if he would just get into a program or go to therapy, maybe we could solve our problems. Did you think that at all before he went to the program or before he went to therapy? Candace: Because he had struggled with depression, I thought he needed help. I didn’t know enough about the pornography and his secret sexual basement to know how to deal with that. So when he started going to therapists, it was just for the depression. Then he was like, maybe you should come to for our marriage, because we were starting to have more arguments and such. Anne: Okay, and when he started going to therapy for his depression. Did you think things are gonna get better? He ripped up My written Thoughts Anne: Can you take me back to your mindset back then? Not knowing what you know now, obviously, ’cause we don’t know. All of us were in that stage. I thought this therapist will help us. What was your feeling about him going to therapy? Candace: Yeah, I thought it would help. Our first session, my husband complained about me not communicating well. I thought I’m naturally a quiet person and prefer to listen to people instead of forcing my opinion. The therapist told me I was to go home and write down my thoughts that I wanted to share with my husband. The next session, these thoughts were on a paper, ready to read to the therapist. My husband and I started reading it. And I don’t remember what I had written. But my husband got so angry that he walked out of this session and left without saying a word. He was gone for about 30 minutes, and a therapist didn’t know what to do. And said to me, This has never happened to him before. It wasn’t really a shock to me, because that’s what my husband would do if he didn’t get what he wanted. He would drive off and then come back as if nothing had happened. Yet, another of the signs husband is controlling. So once my husband finally returned to the therapist’s office, the therapist said it would be best for my husband to rip up the papers I had written and throw them into the fireplace. So, my husband did that right there. It made me feel like nothing I said mattered. It was only about my husband. We also attended some conferences. One of them was about prayer. Told I needed to dwell on my husband’s good traits Candace: I had an encounter or vision that I was in a bright area with light all around. The light felt safe and warm. And then Jesus wrapped me in his arms, and I felt completely safe and at peace. He said, “I’ve got you.” My husband did not have anything like that, which I thought was so strange. Anne: Were these marriage conferences? Candace: Yeah. The first one was, the second was a conference specifically for couples dealing with infidelity and pornography addiction. And at that conference, we had a couple that mentored us. I’ll never forget what the wife of the husband mentor said to me. She gave me a notebook and said I needed to write down all the good traits of my husband and dwell on those things instead of being negative. I never did that. We are also part of a Bible study group that met once a week. We had one night the topic of forgiveness, and I asked the leader, “How long do you have to forgive someone if they keep hurting me with the same thing over and over and over again?” They didn’t have an answer for me. Back home, my husband was so upset with me. Because he said I had put it on him, and I was like, I wish I hadn’t said anything. But at the same time, I wanted to know. What do you do? And at that point I still didn’t know about signs husband is controlling and boundaries. Anne: Did you ask that in front of your husband at the time Candace: Yes, yes I did. Anne: He was there and he heard the question? Okay. Candace: But I didn’t say any names or stuff like that. I just said in general. Signs husband is controlling: every vacation my husband has a Blow up Candace: I was a busy mom looking after four kids now, homeschooling them. I did everything that needed to be done, when your husband doesn’t help with housework. He worked all day. And then came home and be on his computer or phone. If I asked him to do something, it took forever, so I became independent and did everything around the house. So it’s my job to run the house, even do the outdoor work. I did it all. I rarely left my kids alone with my husband. If I did, it was only for a short time. I took my kids everywhere with me. There were two times that he watched them. That was when my one child broke their arm walking around the outside of the trampoline. And another time, my child cut their forehead deep enough that it needed stitches. But because my husband didn’t think it was too serious, he didn’t do anything. I told my husband to take our child to the hospital to get the arm x-rayed to see if it was broken. Otherwise, it wouldn’t have been checked out. As the kids got older, we went on family trips. And every vacation, my husband had some kind of blow up over the strangest thing. One time we camped and he got all upset with me that I didn’t have my phone with me. And he tried to text me. He said he was almost going to call a missing person search on me. I was so confused since it wasn’t a big camp. I was at the beach fishing with my nephews, and why would I have my phone on me at camp? We still had fights every couple of weeks about him not getting enough texts from me. Things start to fall apart during Covid Candace: He would then quote Bible verses to me. “A wife’s body is not her own. A wife needs to submit to her husband.” It made me sick to my stomach, and I started questioning my own sanity and saying to myself, I’m broken. There must be something wrong with me. But I don’t like sex and never have our entire marriage. My husband also liked having long discussions late into the night. And sometimes even. woke me up to have a long talk about something that he felt was important to talk about. I always felt worse after the long talk and questioned myself, whereas my husband was always so happy. Things started to fall apart when COVID hit, and my husband moved back home and had a home office. He loved being at home and could come down whenever he wanted to check on us, have lunch with us, go for walks. I hated it. I was now seeing more signs husband is controlling, and he loved having control. It got so bad, He would pick all the movies he could watch, the music, we could listen to. If my friends came over, he had to sit with us and dominate the conversation. And if we went anywhere in the vehicle, he would pick the music. If I put earbuds in to listen to something else, he would get upset with me. so I wasn’t allowed to do that. He would control the temperature in the house with his phone, so if I changed it, he would put it back. I started to have conversations with my sister about what was going on and how I was feeling, Anne: Did your husband know? Candace: Yes, he’d say, “Hey, I love you. You are just depressed.” I recognize the abuse Candace: At this point, my sister starts sending me YouTube videos to watch about narcissists, and I start going down the rabbit trail. I started listening to a podcast, but something was still missing for me. And then she had you on Anne as a guest on one of her podcasts, and right away that was the piece missing. You told it like it was. Pornography is abuse, and that’s exactly what I’d experienced. I started to become a little caterpillar, eating it all up. At some point in my journey, I moved out of the bedroom and slept upstairs with my kids. I bought a mattress and just moved it around from room to room. My kids wanted to have me up there, because they started to have bad dreams. And were afraid to come out of their rooms when my husband was in the house. My husband now became a spiritual leader, and had to read the Bible to us at every meal and pray for us if we left the house. It was crazy. He said he had found the Holy Spirit, and now truly knew what it meant to be a Christian. He told me I needed to forgive and move forward, because he no longer did pornography, and I could trust him. A week later, he gets my phone and reads all my messages to see what I’ve been saying to my sister. Trust, huh? Anne: Really quick, did you tell him you were listening to BTR or tell him anything about BTR at the time? Candace: No, I did not tell him. I kept that all very quiet. Anne: Okay. Going to my husband’s therapist: signs husband is controlling Candace: My sister warned me too. She said, the more you tell him, the more ammunition he will use, because he was still seeing a therapist, and he’s just giving him more tools for his tool belt that he can use against you. Anne: Yeah, increasing tools. Candace: Then he confessed he read my phone, but it was okay if I wanted to open my own bank account. And I was like, thank you. I’m glad I have your permission now. Anne: Wow. Candace: So my husband then wants me to meet with his therapist of 15 years. And at first I said no, because he had built a relationship with him for a long time and it just didn’t feel right. I didn’t wanna repeat my words being ripped up and thrown into the fire again. But my husband persisted and said his therapist worked with couples all the time and marriage problems. So I met with his therapist without my husband, and I say to the therapist, my husband always has the right words, and no one will ever believe me. The therapist says he’s not going to be fooled. And proceeds to tell me how I need to encourage my husband and welcome him back when he punched through the door yet again. Another therapist doesn’t see it. It was only about saving the marriage at the cost of losing more of myself, to lift my husband up. I never had another session with the therapist and instead kept listening to more and more BTR podcasts. My sister warned me not to go to another session or couple session with my husband. Finally a therapist believes me Candace: And she then recommended a therapist that deals specifically with abuse. The first session I go to, I say to the therapist, “My husband Is a words guy and always has the right words to say. I can never get it right no matter what I say. And no one will ever believe me if I said I’ve been abused.” Or believe signs husband is controlling. And she shows me an apple and said, if I cut this apple on the outside, you would see all the marks I’ve made. But if I take that same apple and drop it on the floor or bang it against the table, it still looks fine from the outside. If I cut open that apple, you would see it’s all bruised inside. That is what you are going through. I said to her, “All I have to do is survive until my youngest is 18 years old.” And she says to me, after I tell her more of my story, that I probably only had about two years before my husband did something more drastic to keep me stuck. Because he’s going to realize I’m pulling away even more. And his outbursts are becoming more and more potent, and using words against me, by saying, “I promised I would stay for the kids, divorce is not an option, we’ll go bankrupt. We made a covenant before God about marriage. Are you breaking that covenant of God?” By October I found out what boundaries are, and I put it through Christ to protect myself because my body was now shaking. Or it felt like my skin was on fire, burning my flesh. my husband smashes my kid’s pumpkin Candace: I asked him not to touch me, not make comments about how beautiful I look, was that he loves me so much, stepping over those boundaries. Then he had another blow up after returning from a business trip. We had carved pumpkins. My oldest carved a Disney character from a movie. My husband said it was a devil pumpkin and wanted me to get rid of it. I refused and said it was not a devil pumpkin. My husband then took the pumpkin and smashed the pumpkin in the driveway. My oldest was devastated and confused about why he would smash that pumpkin. And not our youngest siblings pumpkin carved a witch on it. I was still sleeping upstairs and had moved in more permanently to my second oldest child. I went to my therapist again and told about the pumpkin smash and other blow ups that were happening. M y therapist said I didn’t have years, but months now before it would escalate again. So in November, my husband was on another business trip. My kids and I packed up all we could with the help of some friends and family, and moved to my parents’ house. One of the friends that helped us move commented later about how shocking it was to see my kids looking very happy. Instead of sad and crying, it’s like they knew it was bad enough. My dad and I met with my husband 5 days later to discuss things. My dad, being very insightful, put a no trespass order on his place. So, my husband could not stalk us. The Moment I See signs Husband Is Controlling Everything Candace: My dad also had my husband sign a paper that said he would continue to look after the kids and I and not cancel my credit card or my phone. My husband kept saying to my dad, people don’t understand, I don’t understand why my wife wants to leave me. My husband would send emails picking days that would work for him to see the kids, and I responded back by saying they didn’t wan to visit with him at this time. I also found my kids and I had nightmares a lot now, and I wasn’t sure what that was. Our bodies dealing with the trauma. At the end of December, I sent my husband an email saying he had three options. One, let the kids and I move back into the house, and he finds his own place to live. Two, we sell the house and both find our own places. Or three, both hire lawyers and duke it out, so to speak. He sends back that he wants to talk things out with me, and he doesn’t like to get into a legal battle. He then removes me from our joint email account, so I can no longer have access to our bank account, credit card or phone bills, nothing. And then over the next month, he removes me from other things we shared on our phones or deletes messages he sent to me on our app. and lies to me that it’s normal for things to disappear on the app after a while. Anne: When he started doing this, were you surprised? That happened to me too. It happens to so many of us. Signs Husband is Controlling: Financial Manipulation and Legal Traps Anne: But before it happened in my mind, I still hadn’t wrapped my head around what I was dealing with. So when he shut down the bank account, I was in shock. When you started seeing signs husband is controlling access to accounts, how did you feel? Candace: Yes, I was definitely in shock after he started shutting me from the email account, because I’m like, why? Why would you do that? We’ve had this joint one for years. Anne: Especially after he’s just said, Hey, let’s just talk. We can work it out. It’s like what? You’ve just said. Candace: Mm-hmm. Anne: Everything will be okay, and then you do that. Candace: Yeah, and the thing was, he said about the email too, that was an alias for mine actually. And I’m like, that doesn’t make any sense to me. Because then said, well, I’ll just forward you stuff. So he forwarded me stuff from that email address. I’m like, you can’t tell me it’s an alias for your other one. It just didn’t make sense to me. Anne: It didn’t make sense ’cause he was lying. Candace: Exactly. So in January, I go to the bank to get access to the joint account. Something was off at the meeting with the banker. And then I find out later, my husband has closed our savings account. And I only have access to the checking account. Two weeks later, I get a message from his lawyer saying I have to the end of the month to seek my own lawyer. I can’t go into detail right now. Anne: So he lies to you and says, Hey, let’s just work it out. Can we just talk? In the meantime, he is getting his own lawyer. He’s forcing the kids to visit him Anne: In the meantime, he is shutting down all the bank accounts, moving money, doing all the things. And then when he is ready, he is like, okay, now you have to get your own lawyer. But before he is like, no, let’s just chat. Everything will work out. It is deliberately lying to you so that he could prepare. Candace: Very deliberate, yeah, so I can’t go into too much detail right now. All I can say is we’re going through hell. Every step along the way has been difficult. Trying to protect my kids, who are forced to visit their dad. My husband is good at playing the victim, and he keeps saying, I have no idea. My therapist says your kids are of the age, so they can choose whether or not they go. But because I’m in this collaborative process and they say that I have told my kids that their dad is this horrible person, I need to tell my kids that he’s so lovable, and we need to go there and have a great time with your dad. Anne: It is like reunification therapy basically. Candace: It is just so frustrating right now. Anne: I’m so sorry. It’s an extension of the abuse. And he probably knew that and prepared for that, and then got you stuck in it. Candace: Yeah, and my lawyer, I didn’t share a lot of information because I knew it would get back to my husband . So probably like three or four meetings in my lawyer said, I just wanna have a talking with you one-on-one. I get the impression that this is not going right, and that you’re not happy with this process. Court ordered to send the kids to their dad’s Candace: And she’s like, I wanna hear your story. So I was like, here’s what’s happening. I said, my kids and I are trying to get out of this safe. And she says, okay, that makes a lot of sense. She is more on my side now, but at the beginning, and I was the only one in the room fighting for myself. Everybody in that room was all about my husband and what he needed, and he was just a great guy, and I had turned the kids against him. Anne: I am so, so sorry. It is awful, and it’s happening with everyone. Women trying to get to safety, can’t get to safety because they’re court ordered or put through this process that makes it worse, and they miss these signs husband is controlling. And you wouldn’t think it wouldn’t be like this, but it’s really bad right now. I am so sorry. I’m glad you know what’s going on. That is great, but it’s almost like more traumatizing to know what is going on and that you can’t get help. Candace: And it hurts so much because I’m like, this is a person I trusted. How can that person I thought I could trust be so the opposite, like my husband is lying to me. And to him, it’s all about the money and those kids. Because he cannot get to me anymore, he wants those kids. Every weekend, the kids have to go to his house. My youngest son right now, he said, Mom, I used to love weekends, and now I hate them. Here’s the other thing that gets interesting. I joined BTR and started attending the BTR sessions. I met Coach Jo, and Coach Sharon. Our family wizard works to help signs husband is controlling Candace: I also listened to the podcasts and had listened to Coach Jo’s story. Then I enrolled in the Living Free Workshop. My eyes were finally open, and I could see the signs husband is controlling as I go through all this legal stuff. And the message has been so helpful. Like you say in the workshop. And I talked with Coach Jo, my lawyer, and his lawyer recommended Our Family Wizard. My husband made a big stink about Our Family Wizard. But I was like, “No, we’re doing this Family Wizard.” I’ve sent him two messages on there, and I love it. I think it’s a great way to do parenting and figure out the scheduling and all that. I was like, this is so easy to use because I am not technical at all. Yet, my husband, who’s very technical, doesn’t want it because he is not in control. Anne: Well, it also, he has to be accountable. Every thing he writes or does is documented. And you can’t say, oh, I didn’t get it, because it says when you got it. Or you can’t say, yeah, I’m reading the messages, because it says if you read it or not. Candace: Yes, and I love that feature, ’cause I can just go in, I’m like, “Nope, he hasn’t seen it yet. Nope, he hasn’t been on yet,” But the lawyers agree with it. Then my husband went to his lawyer and said, “I’m really concerned about BTR. Because it talks about abuse and DARVO and all this stuff.” I was then told I needed to get off that. I’m not allowed to have a support group Anne: Wait, who told you you couldn’t listen to a podcast and go to a support group? Your lawyers? Candace: His lawyer, because he had said BTR was abusive. And he was really concerned, because it wasn’t teaching me good things. It was teaching me that pornography was abuse. I put it on my credit card. Anne: So quick, this issue of the credit card is a concern for many women, so we actually made a change. Any charge for our services will be listed on your statement as help.btr.org. That actually goes to a dummy wellness site, talks about hormones on there. So if your husband sees help.btr.org and he goes to that site, it doesn’t even have any information really. You can check it out. We couldn’t do a totally random site. It had to be recognizable, because for a while we did like a completely random site, and women did not recognize the charge. And then they ended up disputing, and then they were like, no, wait, I do want your services. So as she talks about this, know that now any charge for our services will be listed on your statement as help.btr.org. Which is that dummy wellness site. Getting abuse education is bad for abuse victims, apparently. Candace: Apparently, but he was allowed to have whatever group he wanted, but as soon as I had a group, oh no. That was not allowed. Yeah, it made no sense. Anne: Heaven forbid you find out what he is doing. They’re like, oh shoot, that is what I do. She’ll know exactly what I’m doing. Candace: Yes, I’m from a Christian background. Still walking and going forward Candace: I have done the meditations in the workshop to calm my body. The first one, I don’t even know what the right word is, but I could picture myself with the lights. It was so peaceful, and it felt so wonderful to have that feeling again after being in this fight and flight mode so much. Anne: I am so glad. I’m so glad you found Living Free helpful. It took me a long time to create all the illustrations. And the videos in that format. ‘Cause it’s so drastically different than anything a therapist will tell you or anything, like a court professional will tell you, they’ll, I’ll say stuff like, make sure you communicate clearly. Apparently, if you were the world’s most perfect communicator, your problems would go away with this guy. So, because it’s so drastically different, I was like I really need to do visuals so women can process it. Candace: I was like, oh, that makes so much sense now, I’m very visual. And to picture that in my mind what was happening. Yeah, and I also remember being in a group session with Coach Jo, and she said to me, “Imagine you’re walking up a mountain, but you’re like going around it because you can’t go straight up. You have to go around it. And on one side of the mountain, you’re on the light. It’s very bright, sunny, and beautiful, but on the backside it’s very dark and shadow, and sometimes we’re on the bright side and sometimes we’re on the dark side. You’re still going up.” And that has stuck with me, where I’m still walking and going forward. Signs husband is controlling: I still question myself Candace: But there are times where it is super hard and there are times where it’s like super good and I’m just like, wow. Like I’m so thankful. Anne: I think that’s another thing that Living Free really helps women understand and see signs husband is controlling. The reason it’s gonna be hard, and the reason it’s gonna be very hard, is because of their character and the way they interact. They’re in that cave and doing what they’re doing on purpose. So there’s never gonna be a time, unfortunately, where they realize that what they’re doing is hurting us because they know they’re doing it, and that was hard for me to understand. Candace: Well, I did go over it with my daughter a couple of times. Because I find that I still question myself at times and say, “Would it have been better to stay in the marriage and keep my head down?” A very close friend of mine sent me this, and I just wanna read it. She wrote, “I know how much of a struggle it can be making the hard decisions. I’m sorry, you’re having to walk the road of even having to make them. Yes, your kids are hurting, and so are you. Do you honestly think they’re hurting because you left your husband, or because of what your husband has and is still doing? Staying wouldn’t have made it any better. If your kids are getting to an age where it was obvious something was going on, it would’ve hurt no matter what. And that’s not your fault. That’s a consequence of your husband’s choice.” having Him out of my space made the biggest difference Candace: “God has you, and he is in all the details. It doesn’t make sense now, but hopefully someday it will.” That really spoke to me that day. There will be hard days, but there’s also good days ahead. Anne: It’s hard to see who they are until we actually get some distance, and then once we do, it’s so shocking. It’s hard for our eyes to process it. I felt like, and I’m not sure if you feel like this. Even though it’s so hard right now, at least not having him in my space, it made the biggest difference. Candace: Yes. The biggest thing for me is now that I’m out of that and living here. I feel okay with myself now. Anne: Oh, that’s great. Also to know that you were always okay, and there was never anything wrong with you. You just needed to get away from the harm. The thing that was hurting you would stop. You didn’t have to go through a year of therapy, and so many women who are going through therapy or some kind of program or whatever, with this abusive man thinking they’ve got something wrong with them that they need to work on.They might have some things that aren’t healthy that they may be doing as a result of being abused, but safety is the treatment. Candace: Right, yes. Anne: Candace, I appreciate you taking the time to share your story. Thank you so much. Candace: Thank you so much for having me on.
• 3 Hidden Ways Narcissists Groom Victims in Marriage 24.02.2026 34Min.

  Have you noticed that your husband now criticizes the very traits he once loved? Narcissists groom victims by presenting themselves as safe, loving, and trustworthy at first, to gain trust and lower a woman’s defenses before causing harm. When women understand three common ways narcissists groom victims, they can begin to see what’s really happening. Grooming often works quietly. Emotional abusers use a cycle of praise, pity, and confusion to keep women questioning themselves instead of questioning his behavior. This is why grooming feels good at first, because the intent stays hidden until the damage is already underway. To know if it’s grooming, you’ll also need to know if he’s using any one of these 19 different emotional abuse tactics. Take our free emotional abuse quiz to find out. 1. Narcissists Groom Victims With Compliments He’ll Later Use To Attack You Narcissists groom victims with compliments that feel personal and sincere. Early on, they pay close attention to what matters to you, what you feel good about, and what you’re insecure about. Later, they use those same things to criticize, confuse, or control you. This is why many women don’t see red flags before a relationship or marriage begins. At first, it feels like he truly sees you and appreciates who you are. Over time, you realize that what felt like love and admiration was actually preparation. 2.Narcissists Groom With DARVO DARVO means Deny, Attack, and then Reverse the Victim and Offender roll. This is when someone who is truly hurting you claims that you are hurting them. 3. Narcissists Groom Victims With Sob Stories Playing the victim is a common tactic narcissists groom victims with. The truth is that many, many people have had traumatic childhoods and it’s not a reason to abuse anyone. In fact, many people with traumatic childhoods are the healthiest people you’ll ever meet. Abuse is a choice. When a narcissist says he’s lying (or any other abusive behavior) because of his traumatic childhood, he’s just trying to groom you into thinking he has a good reason or excuse. He’s also trying to make you feel sorry for him. He’s NOT choosing to be a healthy person. If he was, he wouldn’t have done it in the first place. To hear Chelsea’s entire story, read on or listen to the full podcast episode above. Full Transcript: 3 Ways Narcissists Groom Victims Anne: Today, I’m joined by a member of our community. We’re going to call her Chelsea. Chelsea shares how her husband was grooming her in ways she couldn’t see at the time, and how his true character revealed itself gradually. It wasn’t obvious cruelty at first. He was charming, praised her, and even showed empathy. As Chelsea shared her story, I noticed three familiar ways narcissists groom victims in the things her husband did repeatedly to confuse her. I want to briefly name these so you can listen for them as the conversation unfolds. First, early compliments that later became weapons. Traits he admired at the beginning were eventually used to criticize.Second, DARVO—deny, attack, and reverse victim and offender. When confronted about harm, he claimed he was the one being hurt.And third, sob stories designed to pull empathy, which later became excuses for harmful behavior. So listen for these as Chelsea shares her story. Welcome, Chelsea. Chelsea: Hi. I’m so glad to be here. Betrayal Trauma Recovery has helped me so much. Anne: When you first met your husband, or maybe when you first got married did you recognize his behaviors as abuse? Chelsea: No, I definitely didn’t. I guess everything’s hindsight 20/20, but at the time I was a single mom of two kids myself, so I don’t know if it was just insecurities. It happened slowly, and it circled around insecurities I had so I didn’t really notice it at first. Anne: When did you start recognizing like something’s not quite right? 1. Narcissists Groom By Giving Compliments They Will Later Attack You With Chelsea: I would say it was like, a few months into dating. I guess the biggest thing for me was all the things he originally complimented me about or liked about me, he made comments about that in a derogatory kind of way. So, I guess that’s why they recognize it as abuse. I remember being emotionally distressed but not really understanding why. Anne: So, he kind of changed his tune? So, I’m just using this as an example. Maybe he said you’re so beautiful, I’m so attracted to you, and then later maybe he was like you’re not attractive to me. Chelsea: Yeah, a couple of examples early on where I was single and I have a really good co-parenting relationship with my ex-husband. I had the perfect situation for me, I had my kids during the week and on the weekends. I was 25 years old back then; this was five years ago, and I kind had the best of both worlds. I’m a very social butterfly, life of the party kind of person and I love to wear red lipstick. That’s just a small example because he did end up using that against me a lot. It was like one of those weird off to the side things, but stuff like that. He complimented me that I am so fun, and he likes how I do my makeup and stuff like that. And then even like how I am a good mom. Then fast forward a few months, it all slowly started going downhill. He started saying things like you have children at home, why are you acting like this? And why do you wear makeup like that? That’s really how the very beginning of it started. Recognizing The Abuse Anne: This is the first way narcissists groom victims, by giving us compliments. And we’re so grateful to have someone see us. Notice us appreciate us. Then later they use those same things that they once complemented us about against us. So later they weaponize what they learn about us, and then they use the thing that they complimented us about against us later. These narcissist husbands don’t want us to leave. Which is such a betrayal. So many victims don’t see any red flags before they get into a relationship or marriage, because the grooming is so specific to us. They’re very good at manipulating us to feel like they truly see and appreciate us in the beginning. Then they purposefully compliment us, then later weaponize it. So at the time, were you thinking, okay, once we’re married, then he’ll go back to realizing how great I am. Chelsea: Yes and no. I got getting pregnant about a little less than a year of dating, and that was a whole fiasco. Right before I getting pregnant, I tried to cut it off. It took me years to realize it was abuse. So that definitely never really came into my mind, but it was so emotionally tumultuous. I don’t know if that is a good word to use. I was like I can’t do this anymore. The way he would degrade me or like the way fights would go. I was like, I don’t want to do this anymore. And then that cycle of abuse was already in play. That wasn’t really any different than after we were married, but I tried to break up with him. Narcissists Groom Victims Off & On To Keep Them Hooked I actually moved away, a couple hours away, for a job. This will help me cut it off because it’s really hard to cut things off with an abuser. To me that was like my way; you know, emotionally I was having a hard time cutting it off because he would always come back around. I thought if we’re physically not in the same place this should be good. Well, he came to visit me on the weekends. It would always be this big whole thing. Narcissists groom victims using the cycle of abuse, and that definitely was happening still. Then I ended up finding out I was pregnant. https://youtu.be/gvxpK9yloco In hindsight, I tell the story sometimes now; I have multiple kids and this instance was like the only time I remember just like falling and sobbing on the floor. At the time, I just had started this new job, I was trying to start this new life. I think it was more of that subconscious knowing that what was really happening underneath all of it was the abuse I was going through. How that was just going to make it so much worse, and it did. Anne: So, you were married because you were pregnant, essentially? Chelsea: Basically, yeah. Like he ended up begging for me back and like wanting to make it work and of course, add a pregnancy in there and you’re already vulnerable. Like in these cycles, at least that’s how it was for me, these cycles come around and add a pregnancy in there and it’s like, I really want this to work now. Horror Honeymoon With an Abuser I already have two other kids. I don’t want to have another kid and be a single mom. At that point, I still really wanted to be with him, but I was like fighting that war with myself. I just wanted to believe him when he said he wanted to make it work. So yeah, we ended up getting married, and even our wedding night was just horrible. Anne: A lot of people have horror honeymoon stories or wedding night stories. Yeah, that’s awful. So, you’re married and you’re pregnant. So many victims of emotional and psychological abuse, try to resist the abuse. By trying to stop it through common marriage advice, like loving serving, forgiving. Like being more understanding, thinking that if they act differently, it will protect them from the abuse. It’s a really common form of resistance to abuse. What was your experience with this type of resistance to the abuse? Chelsea: So, we end up getting married after the baby was born, he was a few months old at the time, because all this whole drama played out for a while before I ended up moving back and everything. But I didn’t notice, I moved back and that’s when I quit my job and like pretty much left my career. I had a corporate career at that point, to be with him and be a stay-at-home mom. That’s like really what I thought I wanted at the time. Anne: Yes, that is common, narcissists groom victims by making them dependent on them. Really quick, what’s his job? Chelsea: He’s in the military. Anne: Okay, so he’s got a stable, respectable job. Narcissists Groom By Making Them Fully Dependent On Him Chelsea: Yes, and that was used against me all the time. So then things really turned once I was fully dependent on him. That’s when things got even worse. At that point, we did some counseling and things like that, just like typical stuff. It’s crazy looking back on it now because, I don’t know what I was thinking. I think I really was just going through the motions. I don’t know any other way to describe it. Anne: What did he seem like to the counselors? Did he seem like a really upstanding good guy to the counselors? Chelsea: Yeah, and even through the years, like he will admit that he has “problems,” it would always be like yes, I have problems but it’s not me. As ironic as that is, you know what I mean? Anne: If you just love me for who I am and help me out, but they’re your fault, because you’re not understanding and because you’re not patient and because you’re not forgiving or something. Narcissists Groom By Blame Shifting Chelsea: Or he would always blame my family because he came from like a very well-off family, and I didn’t. So, he always tried to make it seem like you know, I have a lot of trauma from my childhood. Which I feel like that plays into it, at least for me personally, and ending up in a situation like this, to begin with. He would use that against me. Like well, you’re the one who has mental health issues. You’re the one who has trauma. Like it’s clearly not me, the only issues I have is, you know, the cheating or the prostitutes or whatever the case may be. Like, you are the one who is basically “crazy.” That was just really hard because I think in a way, I believed it. Anne: Yes, narcissists groom victims by blame shifting. So, when did you recognize that this was abuse? Chelsea: Oh, gosh, you know, not until probably the last six months to a year before I ended up leaving, which was earlier this year. I didn’t realize it was actual abuse. This is something he would say too, I was abusive. I’m not an abuser. Anne: I play tennis, but I’m not a tennis player. The “Toxic” Lie That Narcissists Use To Groom Victims (& Therapists) Chelsea: Yeah, then he would even be like and, a lot of things he would say to like multiple marriage counselors we went to over the years were like, well, I used to be the abusive one but now we’re equal. Now we’re just toxic because we’re equal. Like that really came into play the last couple of years before I ended up leaving. Anne: Because an abuser would never admit that he’s abusive. Chelsea: Yeah, I think that’s part of it. Anne: Then they believed him, right. You know what, this is a catch-22 because they admit they’re abusive, and suddenly they’re like a saint. Wow, this is a man who can really be honest and stuff. In that way, you’re thrown under the bus because it’s like he’s changed what’s wrong with you? And then if they won’t admit it, and they just present as this really great guy, then they also are like, he’s a great guy. Like it’s a lose-lose. Either way, the woman isn’t believed. It’s a toxic lie narcissists groom victims with. When Therapists Don’t Call Out Abuse Chelsea: Yeah, and I will tell you something that happened when I was pregnant before we got married, and I was going to counseling or like therapy. I wish sometimes that they would call it for what it is. My therapist made it known that she did not like him, like as much as she could in a professional way, you know. In hindsight, I’m thinking why didn’t she just tell me that was abuse? Instead of telling me, that’s not okay. You know, she was very adamant about that, I could see the conviction in what she said. But now in hindsight, why didn’t you just tell me I was being abused? At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, there’s a lot of validation in group whenever I would have a situation the BTR coaches would tell me “this is what’s happening.” That was very validating for me. Anne: Yeah. That’s what we do here at BTR. Validate. How did you find BTR? Chelsea: The podcast. Anne: So you start listening to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. And then did you start attending Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions? Chelsea: I binge listened the podcast and I was like, Oh, this is my life. I knew I needed something to help me. So then I went to BTR Group. I tell everyone about BTR Anne: You mentioned, it was really validating to attend Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions because the coaches were saying. This is abuse and you found that to be really validating and helpful. Why do you think having a group of women who really understand what you’re going through is so helpful for healing? DARVO Is A Way Narcissists Groom Victims Chelsea: I remember, I think my first session, I don’t even remember the incident that was happening, but I told one of the coaches. What was happening and they were like, that’s DARVO. And I’m like, I don’t even know what that is. And then when she told me, I was like, oh my gosh, like my mind was like blown because I was like, this happens to me constantly. How did I never know there was a term for this? That gave me strength because they would label things . Anne: So this is the second way that narcissist groom, their victims. To deny that they’re abusers then to attack their victim. And then to claim that they are the victim and there’s an acronym for this and it is DARVO. So DARVO stands for DENY, ACCUSE (Or ATTACK), and then REVERSE the VICTIM and OFFENDER ROLES for example. Prominent people who are accused of rape, Bill Cosby is a good example. Someone accuses him of rape. He denies that it happens. Then he attacks the victim and says, no, no, no, she’s just trying to get money. She’s just trying to get attention. I’m the victim here because she’s trying to ruin my life. So the victim offender role gets reversed. So again, deny, attack, and then reverse the victim and offender role. This is the second grooming tactic of a narcissist. that we’re going to talk about today. BTR Group Sessions Can Help You Process Trauma & Abuse Chelsea: Yeah, now that I talk to more people about this openly, I say the same thing. I think that’s what it got to. It was like I could tell him he was abusive all day long, you know, that went on for 6-12 months after I put a label on it, and that didn’t really help because he would just deflect like he did everything else before I put a label on it. I do feel like there’s a lot of validation, when I went to Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group, whenever I would have a situation in group, and they would tell me what it was, that was really validating for me. This is what’s happening, and it’s like okay. Because they make us question our reality so much. Anne: I just want women to know that like, you don’t need someone else to tell you, although yes, it’s helpful, that’s what we do here at BTR. It’s abuse, it’s abuse, it’s abuse all day long. Because I’m like, I just wish women had that inside of themselves, but I’m so grateful that we’re here to help validate. Chelsea: I think that goes hand-in-hand with the narcissist thing. Like people always want to know is he a narcissist? And I’m like well, it doesn’t really matter. The label doesn’t matter because how is he treating you? I Get To Decide if I Want to Be In This Situation Then I kept going through the process of moving out and everything, and something aside from the support and everything. Hearing everyone’s stories was really impactful for me, because I realized I didn’t know what the goal was. I knew it was supportive, but I didn’t know like how it would be. Once I saw that they aren’t really persuading you to do one thing or another, and it’s more about making your own decisions and deciding for yourself what you want to do or what’s happening. Hearing other people’s stories and realizing wow, I get to decide if I want to still be in this situation 5, 10, 20 years from now or not, you know. That was very enlightening for me, hearing other people how long they had to go through it. Like, that was a real wake-up call for me. Anne: I think that’s one reason why women are afraid to join Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group they’re afraid that if they find out it’s abuse, or if they acknowledge it’s abuse, that they’ll have to get divorced from this narcissist. For example, and they’re just not quite ready to do that yet. Or some other version of that where they feel like they’ll go down a road they don’t really want to go down. A lot of women worry about that. What would you say to a woman who’s concerned about that? Find Validation in the BTR Group Sessions Chelsea: From my experience, I mean, I can’t say because like I had already planned on leaving when I did join, but from the stories I saw, I remember just really seeing how people could find even that little bit of safety. Like, no they weren’t ready to leave or maybe they don’t want to leave at all and knowing they could have support. Their feelings are valid, what they’re going through is valid, and even just finding the strength to be able to stand up for themselves or self-care. I always remember them asking what our self-care was for the day, and I remember being like I don’t know, I don’t ever do self-care, you know. It’s so important even when you’re in that situation, you’re so like spun out trying to survive and like keep your head above water. It’s like a breath of fresh air to be in a group where you’re understood and validated. Regardless of if you are planning to leave or not. Anne: We wanted to make sure it was safe for everyone, no matter where they are in their process and no matter what their goals are at BTR. Our goal is safety. We just want to help women feel validated and make their way to safety in whatever way that it looks like for them. So that’s our goal here. The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop is to help women gain safety. Narcissists Groom Victims With Gaslighting From your perspective, why do you think it takes so long to understand that you’re being abused? Maybe someone is pointing it out to you. Why do you think it takes maybe someone saying hey, that’s abuse for victims to understand that they’re being abused? Chelsea: For me personally, I think it’s the art of gaslighting or the manipulation involved where for so long before anyone has even become aware. Maybe you nobody knows this is what you’re going through. Narcissist husbands use gaslighting to groom victims. The abuser told you that it’s you. I wish I could tell more people because anyone I talked to their first thing has always been go to marriage counseling and I’m like marriage counseling was so detrimental for me. It’s was like we go into session talking about the infidelity or like, the abuse, and everything, and somehow, we ended up talking about forgiveness and the five love languages. Anne: I hate The Five Love Languages. That’s so funny that you say that. Anytime I hear somebody talking about his love language is this or my love language. I am like, ugh, throw that book in the garbage. Chelsea: That can end up being used. Basically, just that you’re not giving me enough of this, so I treat you this way. When Narcissists Groom Therapists Anne: Yeah, this is my love language, and I deserve it. Right? Or I’m entitled to this because it’s my love language. Of course, they’re always going to say their love language is sex. Chelsea: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I’m just like, how did we start these sessions with this, and five weeks, six, eight weeks later we’re talking about how I need to forgive, or I need to put more positive bids into our marriage or just any of these marriage counseling things. I’m like this never; none of this got to the root of the problem. Anne: It’s nonsense when it comes to abuse, but the weird thing is, marriage counselors in general don’t assess abuse first. They just literally go right into positive communication or let’s do a date night every week or you know, whatever. If it really was an abuse situation, which all of these are, there’s no way you’d be telling somebody to go on a date with their abuser every week or even do the other things they say. It’s literally crazy. Narcissists Groom Victims With The Unwitting Help Of Therapists And Counselors Chelsea: To me, it’s the opposite of safety. You’re asking me to be vulnerable and to forgive someone who has not shown me that they’re a safe person. Anne: Or trust someone who’s completely untrustworthy. Chelsea: Yeah. They end up using that against you because, they’re the marriage counselor so you need to work on this. It’s like they bring up this list of things the marriage counselor told you to do and they’re not even working on whatever they told them to do. Anne: Well, it’s hard to tell them what to do, because it’s like, don’t cheat. And they’re like, well, I haven’t cheated since I did last time, and I’m not going to do it again. So, what else can you say. That’s it. Chelsea: Have more positive communication or whatever. I think that’s what makes it go on for so long. It feels almost like a video game or something. Like, you have to go through all these levels before you’re like okay, I’m not dealing with this anymore. That’s how it feels to me. He made it seem like that too. Like, when they’re in the bargaining phase or whatever, they just start begging you to try one more time or try something different. So, it’s like, how many levels do I need to go through before this just isn’t going to work? Narcissists Groom Victims As Part of the Cycle of Abuse Anne: That’s part of grooming. It gives you hope that change might be possible, right? Or they’re willing to work on it. It’s essentially just a grooming tool to hook you . Grooming is what is confusing all women about the abuse. There are these times where they “genuinely” want to work on it they’ll go to therapy, or they seem to understand. They have these moments of what Looks like true introspection where they apologize and “I know how much I’ve hurt you and I don’t want to break our family up and, this is the most important thing to me in the world” all that is is grooming and grooming is abuse. I think people are seeing like, okay, it was good. I think people are seeing like okay, it was good, and then it was bad. We were happy and he was nice, and then it was awful. They’re not recognizing that that nice part, that good part, that part that he’s “understanding it” or he’s cherishing you is abuse too. Chelsea: This is my case, but I also think it’s a lot of people’s. The abuser doesn’t think they’re doing that or see that they’re doing that. So, it’s like unintentional. It’s almost like I can’t call that abuse because he’s not doing it intentionally. Anne: So, this is confusing, right? Because you’re like, this is good. They were nice, they were kind, so are they good? Narcissists Groom In Order To Maintain Control Anne: An abuser’s goal is never real peace. An abuser wants control. He wants something from you. That’s the difference. In those moments when he seems genuinely caring—when he sounds interested, repentant, or emotionally present, it can feel convincing. But there are strings attached. There is always a goal. He becomes especially kind, attentive, and affirming when he wants something—sex, compliance, admiration, forgiveness, or access. That goal-oriented kindness is what makes it grooming. Narcissists groom victims by using affection as a tool, not as a reflection of who they truly are. Once he gets what he wants, the tone shifts. Devaluing follows. Sometimes discarding follows. That’s because the connection was never about mutual care, it was about extraction. Genuine love doesn’t work that way. When someone truly cherishes you, their kindness doesn’t depend on getting something from you. They don’t turn affection on and off based on access or advantage. They think you’re amazing whether or not they benefit. There’s no hidden agenda, just appreciation. That absence of strings is the difference between grooming and real love. Narcissists Groom Victims To Protect Themselves & Exploit” Anne: When you say that they don’t intend to hurt me or they don’t intend to be abusive, right? So, a lot of people will be like well, they don’t know they’re abusing me, so how can it be abuse? That’s not what defines abuse. What defines abuse is that it’s harmful to someone else. So, they don’t have to know what they’re doing in order for it to be harmful to you. The abuse is the harm. It’s not necessarily their intent. But if their intent is completely selfish and goal-oriented then it’s exploitative, and it’s abusive. For example, their intent might be I just don’t want her to know the truth because if she found out the truth, she would kick me out of our apartment. So, the intent is not to get kicked out of the apartment. They’re not thinking, I’m going to abuse her, I’m going to lie. The only thing they’re thinking is, I don’t want to get kicked out of the apartment. So, their intent is to deceive so that they can maintain their entitlements so that they can exploit you and so that they can maintain their status. None of that is ever thinking oh, I’m going to abuse her on purpose. Narcissists groom victims to protect themselves and exploit. Chelsea: That was so good because that’s something in so many conversations I’ve had. What happens when, you said like getting kicked out of the apartment. When that conversation is more like I don’t want to lose you? Because I think that one’s really hard because then there’s the implied value as their spouse or partner or whatever. A Narcissist Does Not See His Victim As A Person Anne: In moments like that, when he says, “I don’t want to lose you,” it’s important to understand what that really means. An abuser doesn’t see his victim as a whole person. He sees a collection of things he wants—sex, domestic labor, financial stability, access to children, or social standing. Narcissists groom victims by making them believe this is love and care. So, when they say I don’t want to lose you, what they’re saying is I don’t want to lose it. I don’t want to lose someone who’s going to vacuum the floor, or lose any money and have to pay you alimony or child support or anything. I don’t want to lose the privilege of looking like a great guy at church and showing up on Sunday with my wife and kids, my reputation. My guess is if you really pressed this and said what is it about me specifically that you don’t want to lose? I don’t really think they would be able to answer it. I don’t recommend people asking questions like that because they could come up with an amazing answer and all you’re doing at that moment is handing your abuser a shovel to further groom you with. The abuser is in a trench, they’ve dug it through their own viewpoint, and they’re really entrenched in there. We never want to give them a shovel to dig themselves any deeper into that trench. Questions like that are going to just be handing them a shovel. They’re either going to groom you more or they’re going to abuse you in some way, devalue you in some way. Either way, it’s abuse to you and it’s an unsafe situation. It’s Not Your Fault You would know if they valued you already, you would feel it. If they really genuinely valued you, and it would be consistent over time. You would not have abuse and then grooming and then abuse and then grooming. You wouldn’t feel like you were married to Jekyll and Hyde. Chelsea: Yeah, that’s what was hard for me for so long. I thought this vulnerable victim-part of himself that he would show me with him, and then start getting the whole picture and that all was part of him. The big part for me, I know everyone’s different. I stayed so long because I in a way I guess I was codependent and that I felt bad that he suffered so much, that he had these issues. And I’m sure there was a lot of grooming as well. Anne: Yeah. Well, think about like a girlfriend who’s been through really hard times who is like a good friend of yours. Like she’s kind, she’s supportive, she validates you. She does not use her difficult story or her difficult upbringing as a weapon to abuse you or to excuse her mistreatment of you. She doesn’t use it to try and get people to feel sorry for her. Her response to her trauma was post-traumatic growth where she was like, you know what I’m going to go to college, and she’s just an incredible, amazing person. There are so many people who have had very difficult situations in the past, they’ve had trauma in their childhood, and they don’t abuse other people. They make really good choices. They think that is not the kind of life I want. Narcissists Groom Victims With Sob Stories So let’s stop right here to point out this third way to recognize how a narcissist groom. Number three is that they try to get people to feel sorry for them. They want to say, “ell, I was abused as a kid and my life was really hard. I know someone who went through that, and they don’t abuse their wife. None of that is a reason. Think about yourself. You went through a very difficult situation, and maybe your upbringing was bad, I’m just saying the general you, and do you lie and manipulate people? We just need to remember that all these sob stories, told in this context, narcissists groom victims with sob stories. That’s their only purpose. The purpose is to make people feel sorry for them so they can get away with bad behavior. Chelsea: Yeah, for sure, and he groomed me very early on, but I told you how it all started. Well, I would say a month or two even before that was when the grooming began. In hindsight, where he started opening up about his childhood and stuff. Or things he had done in the past, like with his ex-wife that brought him so much shame. All this other stuff he said and cried and everything. And now, I’m like a major red flag, major red flag, but in hindsight that was clearly when the grooming began. It’s A Red Flag When They Start The Relationship With a Sob Story Anne: Exactly. Narcissists groom victims by getting people to feel bad for them. So that’s another thing for all the listeners, is that if you start the relationship out with them trying to get you to feel bad for them, then you can just stand up and get an Uber and go home. You don’t want to start there. If you’re early in your healing and you lead with how victimized you’ve been when you show up on a date, that can work against you. I’m not talking about getting validation at BTR or with close girlfriends, those spaces matter. I’m talking specifically about how you present yourself to someone you’re interested in dating. That’s dangerous because then they’ll be like, oh, I can just tell them I’ll never do that to you, and I’ll never leave you and that is like giving someone a shovel. They groom victims by telling them they would never do that. I would say abstain from dating while you’re feeling that vulnerable until you can get strong enough that you would never lead with that in a relationship. Chelsea: We don’t realize that it’s grooming even from day one. I Am Whole. I Am Working My Way To Healing Anne: A great way to start a date would be like my life is great. I love it. Even if it’s not. Then people are like well, you know you’re not vulnerable or whatever. But I’m just saying get yourself to your place where you feel like I am whole, I am working my way to healing, I’m doing really well. That is a good place to start dating from, I think. Rather than I’m trying to date to get someone to help me or I need something. I think that’s just too vulnerable of a place for us especially when we’re in trauma. That it just sets us up for more victimization. Chelsea: Yeah, that’s so good. I’ve done a lot of deep dives on my own story, you know, over time, and I still have revelations like all the time about things I’ve been through. Anne: Even now, like seven years later, I’m still getting insights about like, why did I think that, or this is what was really happening. There are insights that we have over time where we’re like oh, that conversation wasn’t even about that. Narcissists Groom with Misdirection One thing I’ve come to recognize is that my ex would pick fights with me late at night, then leave the house claiming he needed to cool down. At the time, I believed that explanation. Now I’m certain that wasn’t why he left. He left because he had something else he wanted to do. I don’t know exactly what that was, maybe acting out sexually, maybe something else entirely, but I do know this: he needed an excuse to leave. So he created one. He picked a fight so he could justify walking out. In the moment, it felt real. It felt like an actual conflict. Looking back, I can see there was nothing to fight about. He manufactured the conflict to make his exit look reasonable. That’s one way narcissists groom victims through misdirection. They create a false reality so you focus on the argument instead of questioning why it’s happening at all. Many women experience this. They think, He’s not attracted to me, or I upset him and he stormed out. They don’t realize he may have decided he wanted to leave and simply needed a trigger. Maybe he criticized her cooking, knowing she’d react, so he could say, See? I need to go. Chelsea: Yeah, I felt that it definitely happened to me a few times. I don’t know what he was doing, but that’s a very good point. BTR Group Sessions Can Help You Anne: Do you have anything you’d want to share with women who might be hesitant to join Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions—or who are listening for the first time and wondering, Is this really for me? Maybe they’re thinking this sounds extreme, or they’re not sure it even counts as abuse, especially since narcissists groom victims in ways that don’t look harmful at first. Chelsea: I get like being hesitant because I think it’s like admitting it, admitting this as a problem. It’s almost like taking a huge step in itself, and maybe that’s where the resistance comes from, but for me, it was just so helpful. There were times when an incident would happen, and I’d have to wait a week so my therapist, or maybe some don’t even have a therapist. Maybe your friends or family don’t know what’s going on. I know I didn’t always want to be calling them every time something happened. I remember it was once I finally, joined, it what a relief to know anytime there’s an incident I could get on the same day. Sometimes I didn’t even need to talk about it, but being in that space where I felt safe and not alone. It’s such an isolating experience to be going through this. Even just sitting and listening helped because it made me not feel crazy. It made me not feel so alone. Support The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast Anne: Our community is incredible, and I always say that when one of us has an epiphany, all of us have an epiphany. When one of us gets to safety, it makes it better for everyone. We’re all working on deliverance together. And together, we can make this world a safer place, starting with our own home and then spreading it out to other women across the globe. I’m so grateful that you found us, and I’m grateful that shared your story. Thank you so much. Chelsea: Thank you for having me. Anne: If this podcast is helpful to you, please support it. Until next week, stay safe out there.
• Scared and Unsure? Best Private Support Group for Marriage Problems 17.02.2026 46Min.

  If you’re searching for a support group for marriage problems because your husband’s behavior is starting to scare you, or because traditional counseling hasn’t helped, you’re in the right place. Most women who find BTR begin exactly where you are right now: scared, unsure, and trying to figure out who they can safely talk to when their marriage feels confusing or frightening. But here’s what almost no one tells you: Not every support group for marriage problems is emotionally safe for women. Not every counselor understands. And not every institution knows how to help you. Today’s episode explores why the struggle to find the right type of support group for marriage problems is actually a systemic issue. You’ll hear from sociologist Dr. Nicole Bedera, whose research exposes how universities often fail women who are scared, even if they follow every “correct” path to get help. And then you’ll meet Haley, a woman whose college experiences mirror what so many married women face in counseling offices, churches, Title IX, and even courtrooms. Their stories may not be about marriage directly, but the patterns are heartbreakingly similar, where women are seeking help blamed or minimized told to “be fair” to the man who hurt them pushed into silence left without the clarity or support they needed If you’ve been wondering where to turn, or what kind of support group for marriage problems can actually help, here are five truths from this episode that will help you find the right support. 1. A Support Group for Marriage Problems isn’t usually Built for Clarity A lot of marriage-based groups focus on: communication skills mutual responsibility serving each other But since you’ve already tried these things, more of it likely won’t help clarify what’s actually going on if you’re confused about what’s going on in your marriage, 2. If You’re UnSURE what’s Going On With Your Husband, It’s Likely Not A Marriage Problem Women often think: “He isn’t always like this.” “I’m probably overreacting.” “He’s stressed. Maybe that’s all this is.” But confusion is information. Your body senses something is amiss before your mind has language for it. Any support group for marriage problems or helper who tells you you’re “too sensitive” or “too emotional” is not equipped to help you. 3. Institutions Often Protect the Person Hurting You This is the clearest thread between Nicole’s research and the stories we hear from married women every day. When women are confused, universities, churches, pastors, counselors, or courts, don’t support women who need answers. They act as a mediator between two parties, but if he’s lying, it will just be more of the same. The best support group for marriage problems will break this pattern and give you clarity, without you having to communicate with him more, especially since communicating with him hasn’t cleared up confusion in the past. 4. WHEN Manipulative Men Use Systems to Their Advantage, a support group for marriage problems is essential This is one of the hardest truths women aren’t told, but one of the most important. When a woman is confused by her husband, it’s usually because he’s lying to her and … charming counselors throwing her under the bus with church leaders appearing calm while you appear shaken using systems to make you look “unstable” or “dramatic” That’s why Haley’s story matters for married women too. Her abusers used university structures the same way husbands use counseling or clergy, to stay in control and keep the woman quiet. A safe support group for marriage problems knows these patterns and can help you navigate them. 5. The Best Support for Marriage Problems Is Confidential A true support group for marriage problems should: protect your confidentiality help you trust your instincts give you clarity never push you toward something that scares you Women deserve to have clarity about what’s going on, long before they ever step into a counseling office or try to get help from an institution that may not understand. We understand and you can receive live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session As You Listen to This Episode… Notice how both women in these interviews talk about trying to get help in all the “correct” ways and how each system responded, they were… doubted blamed minimized If marriage counseling, recovery programs, support groups for marriage problems, religious leaders, Title IX offices, or courts have left you confused or unsafe, today’s episode will help you understand why. If you need clarity in your marriage, here’s my Clarity After Betrayal workshop. Transcript: When You Don’t Know Where To Turn For Help Anne: We’re gonna start with Dr. Badera. She’s a sociologist, an author of the book, On The Wrong Side: How Universities Protect Perpetrators and Betray Survivors. Her research focuses broadly on how our social structures contribute to survivor trauma. Nicole puts her work into practice at the Center for Institutional Courage. After I get done talking to Nicole, I’ll have Hailey share her story. Welcome Nicole. Nicole: Thank you. I’m so excited to be here. Anne: I’m excited too. Listeners to this podcast are trying to get clarity after betrayal. They often start by searching for a support group for marriage problems. And most of the time, they can’t get clarity because the people they go to to get help aren’t able to help them because they don’t know what’s going on. Your work focuses on students trying to get help on college campuses, but I think it really intersects. Because in both cases, they don’t get the information or support they need. Can you talk about your research? Nicole: I focus on what happens for students still in school. Victims report to most of the Title IX office most of the time. You might have heard about it in the news.  It’s been everywhere over the past 10 years, but it’s quieted down quite a bit recently. I spent a year inside one of those Title IX offices interviewing the victims, perpetrators, and school administrators who had the most control over their cases. So in that setting, all knew something was wrong. They might not know how to label it, or how to label it in a way that the system would recognize. That’s something survivors deal with a lot. Especially since a lot of this stuff is just made to feel normal for women. Seeking help through the Title ix office parallels seeking a support group for marriage problems Nicole: There’s this idea that this is what you should expect when you go to college. And so there were some that they weren’t sure what was going on, but they knew that something had affected usually their education. Or they felt unsafe, unsettled, and they ended up in my study because they went to their school for help. Either through the victim advocacy office, which on a college campus, can help survivors with whatever they need, but many things that have nothing to do with the perpetrator. Including things like they need an extension on an assignment, or there’s a specific class they want to take, but their perpetrator wants to take it. So they’re trying to coordinate to figure out when they can take it in the semester that they won’t be in the same classroom, things like that. Or they went through the Title IX office to try to report what happened to them, to try to seek some kind of safety or justice. But many themes are not that different from all the other places that maybe you’ve considered going to for help. Anne: When a woman has a situation where she needs help, but she doesn’t quite know where to go to find help, it’s so heartbreaking for me. I see this often with wives trying to figure it out after their husband’s betrayal. We usually do couple therapy, or maybe like addiction recovery, trying to figure out how can I start to feel safe again in my marriage. Why do you think this idea of safety and how to feel safe again is just so hard for pretty much everybody to understand? Like what do you mean she feels unsafe and what are we supposed to do about it? The Primary concern of the title ix office Nicole: There are a couple of issues that we run into. One of them is that a lot of the systems that we think are going to help, won’t help. If you think about a college campus, for example. Students are told, if you’re experiencing sexual violence, sexual harassment, or any kind of gender discrimination, come to the Title IX office and they will help you. But that’s not what the Title IX office is concerned with. Their primary concern is what do we do with this perpetrator. Sometimes doing something about the perpetrator would help if the school would, which they often hesitate to do. But a lot of the time, that’s not meeting a survivor’s need in a real way. That’s the same issue that comes up if you go to a couple therapist or support group for marriage problems. I think many people who’ve tried for help at any of these institutions have an experience where you’re coming in for something really tangible for yourself. So an example I gave earlier is you are, let’s say you’re a victim in a university setting, and you show up on the first day of class. And you see your perpetrator is in class with you, and that the class will discuss sexual violence as a topic. So this just feels impossible for you to be safe in this environment, because it’s going to remind you of your trauma. You might have to watch your perpetrator interact. It’s going to be just a place where your body and mind respond to the traumatic experiences you’ve already had. Anne: And the trauma you continue to experience because the likelihood of him gaslighting you through this whole thing is like off the charts. the System focuses on what it means for the perpetrator Nicole: You’re right. It’s unlikely that if you’re in that class with your perpetrator. You and your perpetrator will share the same public narrative about why you can’t sit next to him in class. And so the perpetrator might disparage the victim, might tell lies about what happened to avoid accountability. You’re right. A victim in that scenario reasonably is just thinking, I just want this guy out of my class, right? I want to take the class I want to take and complete my degree on time. Why is this affecting me in this scenario? Most people, if you think about it rationally, would say, that’s a reasonable set of requests. You know, you’ve already experienced a sexual assault. That’s enough of a burden. You shouldn’t have to sacrifice your education too. But in our current university system, there is no way to get that outcome. And so instead, when a victim comes forward and says, “This is what I need,” the entire system is focused on, “But what would this mean for the perpetrator? Is it fair to him? Is this going to be too much for him?” That happens within a support group for marriage problems. The focus can be on the perpetrator. This is one of the stories I start the book with. Even if the system works as it claims, it can’t fix it. There is no version of a sexual assault response in our society that can intervene in two weeks. We don’t really have a version of that right now. That’s a big part of why coming forward is so harmful, because they will tell you to wait. They will re-traumatize you. They will force you back into communication, into being in the same room with your perpetrator. Metaphor of hot stove with women in scenarios including a support group for marriage problems Anne: I help all sorts of women in all sorts of scenarios. But one that I’m thinking of right now is a woman with a protective order, and he continues to violate the protective order. And she keeps calling it in, and then they have to have a hearing about it. And the hearing isn’t for like three months. In the meantime, there’s no protection for her. To hear the prosecutor talk about the date of the court hearing, rather than to hear somebody say, “I care about you. We’re going to do something so that he can’t come around you anymore.” That’s what she needs to hear. But for some reason, that’s like beyond their comprehension. Nicole: I use this metaphor putting your hand on a hot stove. Right now, our systems just tell the victim, pretend it’s not burning you. Just keep being burned while we decide what to do. And if it is burning you and you can’t handle it, there must be something wrong with you. And a better system would say, let’s turn off the stove. We’re just going to turn it off and we’re going to take a minute to figure out what to do next. Anne: This happens in marriages all the time. Because the support group for marriage problems, the professional counselor, clergy, or any number of people she’s going to for help, don’t identify that “the stove is on,” to use your metaphor. They’re like, “Something’s wrong with you because you’re burned for no reason.” Nicole: Right. Or let’s try to evenly manage this. There’s this real temptation in a lot of these systems to say, “Well, why don’t both people come to the table and offer something?” victims just want to feel safe Nicole: And so that would be akin in the same metaphor to saying, “Well, why don’t we have the stove turned down a little bit? And why don’t we have the person with their hand on the stove stop complaining they’re being burned?” And that doesn’t make sense. We as a culture are comfortable asking for more sacrifices from victims, as long as it’s in the name of giving an advantage to their perpetrator. But we know that abuse takes place when there is a power inequity. And so if that’s the reason we’re saying both people have to do something or the victim can’t get what they need. Because we want to give a benefit to the perpetrator, that will always deepen that inequity. It’s always going to deepen that power disparity, and that can make the abuse worse. Anne: My eye is twitching. The other thing I think is interesting when it comes to reporting or not reporting. For me and many women who have been through it, reporting wasn’t the issue. We just wanted to feel safe. I didn’t necessarily want my ex husband to go to jail. I just wanted him to leave me alone. In my personal case, I had a protective order. The criminal court said, “Do not talk to him, you have a protective order,” but the civil court ordered me to talk to him because we share children. So for eight years, my ex abused me post divorce. A man I have a protective order against, who I do not want to talk to. But the civil court forces me to talk to him because of my kids. I didn’t want to report his abuse, so he went to jail. the Title ix debate Anne: I think that’s the thing that people have a hard time with, especially with custody cases, where the judge is like, “Well, I can’t take away custody because then I’d be calling him an abuser. And then what? He’d go to prison.” Victims want to be safe. And in many of these civil cases, especially with kids. The safe parent, the mother, is seeking a support group for marriage problems, she is not trying to throw him in jail. And same thing in college, victims are just asking that he doesn’t go to this class, maybe he transfers schools. But for some reason, they equate it to prison. Nicole: That’s exactly right. And I want to say that this is a new problem. And the Title IX debate is actually the center of why this is happening throughout society. So, a little history, in 1972, a law passed. And that law said sex discrimination is illegal on college campuses that receive federal funding. And that’s all schools, to be clear. Even Harvard accepts a lot of funds from the federal government to keep their doors open. They would have a very hard time keeping their doors open without those federal funds. And the law itself is just a single sentence. The law isn’t super clear about everything that’s included and not included. So there were a series of court cases to try to figure that out. One of them was in 1980, Alexander v. Yale, and that was the first court case that said that sexual violence should be illegal on a college campus, that it should be something that schools should do something about, and they should have their own internal proceedings to manage sexual violence. Colleges don’t follow the law and women seeking a support group for marriage problems Nicole: And the focus here wasn’t about sending people to jail. That’s what you could call the police for, if that’s what you wanted. This is specifically for scenarios where victims’ educations were impacted by their sexual assaults, intimate partner violence, stalking, or whatever they experienced. And so, the Department of Education had argued that schools need to do something to ensure that violence doesn’t interfere with the quality of education you receive from the school, including things like if there’s a known perpetrator on campus. Let’s say he’s a professor, let’s say he’s withholding good grades unless students provide sexual favors, which is what that 1980 court case was about. Part of what Title IX would require is removing the perpetrator from campus, because obviously no woman can get a fair education from that person. And so the focus is on restoring those educational rights. The issue was that schools just didn’t do it. And so every few years, the Department of Education would remind schools that they had to do something about sexual harassment and violence, and they just didn’t do it. And for the most part, it didn’t capture much attention until the Obama administration. Anne: Was part of their justification for not doing their job them thinking, “If it was bad enough, she’d call the police.” Nicole: Certainly. Inside Higher Ed conducted a survey in 2015, where they asked university presidents, do you think campus sexual violence is a problem on your campus? And the vast, vast, vast majority said, “No, that’s a problem at other schools. We don’t have to worry about it,” which is not true. The Law captures national attention Nicole: By the way, we have yet to find a university that doesn’t have sexual violence as a problem. And so, yes, that’s part of how they justified it, “We don’t want to handle this, this is a criminal act, not a civil act.” But that’s not what the law said. And so, the Obama administration sent out another one of these reminder letters, and for whatever reason, it became hotly politicized. And in that moment, a group of Harvard professors, law professors, wrote an essay saying the Title IX approach the Obama administration required wasn’t right. Because it didn’t allow the same kind of due process protections that the criminal justice system does. So exactly what you’re saying, that’s what they said. And to be clear, a lot of these Harvard Law professors were not specialized in issues of gender based violence. And the average lawyer gets very little training during law school about sexual violence or harassment, especially in civil settings. So they were just wrong. They were just flat out wrong. But this argument captured the national attention. It went viral. Other judges and lawyers think there are due process protections on college campuses that never existed before. Prior to this moment, if you faced student disciplinary proceedings on a college campus, your only rights were to know your accusations, and what the violation would be, and have some chance to respond, but there were no rules about how you would do that. So some schools did it in writing, some did it through hearings, some weren’t doing much of anything. A guest speaker example Nicole: And so, this new idea that anything involving sexual violence must be held to a criminal standard of due process. It is only a few years old. It’s not too late to reverse it, and we should, because the stakes are so different. I call it “Accumulated Fantasies of Disaster.” Where, exactly like you’re describing, a victim says, “I need one thing,” and sometimes on college campuses, that is safety for their kids. Married people live in student housing on college campuses with children, living in essentially the dorms, but family dorms. And that’s often what they’re looking for. I am trying to escape an abusive marriage. I need a support group for marriage problems. My partner is still on campus, and we’re still living in the same dorm. And is there another unit I can move into with my kids as I go through divorce proceedings, as I go through a custody battle, essentially saying exactly what you are. “Well, if we do that, it could lead to all these other issues for the perpetrator down the line.” And some stories that I heard during my time in the field were really unreasonable. For example: A guest speaker who came to a campus sexually harassed a woman. The guest speaker was CEO of a company. And he stalked and sexually harassed her since meeting her. He had no other tie to the campus community. So from a legal perspective, the university had no obligation to him. They don’t have to let him come back and speak again. They don’t even have to let him come on campus if they don’t want to, because he’s not a student. He’s not a professor. He has no rights to this space. Men accused don’t have bad things happen to them: finding a support group for marriage problems Nicole: But instead, the Title IX investigators wrapped themselves in knots to think of all of these horrible things that could happen to him if they took the victim’s wishes into consideration, which was just, please don’t invite him back to be guest speaker again. I don’t want this to happen to anybody else. And they said things like, “He could get a bad reputation, he could lose his job, he could be incarcerated.” And it’s not true. Because a lot of these proceedings are private. They can’t hand private files to the police. That’s illegal. That’s not how it works. People have privacy rights. Educational documents, in particular, are really private. But that’s what they’re thinking. They’re saying, “If you come forward, every bad thing will happen to this person.” And yeah, we’re talking about a CEO. Who’s going to fire him, himself? It doesn’t make sense. Anne: Also, heaven forbid, a bad thing happen to a rapist. Nicole: I completely agree. I think we can all see from just examples in pop culture, presidential races, whatever it might be. Men accused of sexual assault tend not to have bad things happen to them. Women seeking a support group for marriage problems face this as well. If anything, I argue they tend to get benefits. The Johnny Depp trial is a great example. He made an entire comeback. He was having a hard time finding work in Hollywood because of his own behavior on set. Now he’s getting this second chance. Because he’s known as a perpetrator of domestic violence, which he never refuted, by the way. Accumulated fantasies of disaster Nicole: He never refuted that he had physically harmed Amber Heard. He never said that. And he simply argued that she deserved it, which worked. Anne: That’s insane, it’s wild. We should see through it, but we don’t, because we come to a place from victim blaming first. I kept seeing people worry about worst-case scenarios…accumulated fantasies of disaster about what might happen to perpetrators. And how bad it’ll be if we say out loud what they did. But I interviewed the perpetrators, and those things didn’t happen to them. If anything, many of them enjoyed these accountability proceedings. Because, like we’re talking about, there’s these contradictions in them. Court proceedings constrain the victim’s behavior. They don’t allow the victim to do X, Y, and Z, or it’ll hurt their credibility. While simultaneously, forcing them to be in contact the perpetrator regularly. And that’s something perpetrators enjoy. Anne: Yeah, they like it. Nicole: Yes! Anne: Sorry, we need to focus on this. I created a strategy workshop. It’s called the Living Free Workshop, Click on that link and learn more. It helps women see why abusers like this enjoy it. And what these types of abusers get out of it. So that women can use strategy to protect themselves and find emotional safety in a support group for marriage problems. Because we don’t enjoy it. That’s what you discovered. I’m like, yes, they enjoy it. And it’s because they never lose. Nicole: Even if they lose, the losses are hollow. They expelled one student for intimate partner violence while I was on campus. The dean of students facilitated a perpetrators transfer Nicole: So it is rare, I was on campus that year. But what that expulsion meant was because of this rush to protect the perpetrator. This rush to make sure nothing bad happened to him. The Dean of Students had already helped facilitate his transfer to another university by the time he was expelled. It was close enough, he didn’t even have to move apartments. And they had slowed down the proceedings for two years. Originally with the hope that he would graduate before they had to hold him accountable. But he didn’t graduate for a whole host of reasons. Instead, the victim had to take a leave of absence, for those two years. Because he was so violent and so dangerous that she couldn’t safely be on campus. And so they told her, you know, the same thing we’re talking about before. Until he’s been through this process, we can’t offer you any kind of assistance. So if you can’t handle being here, you’re the one who should leave. And that’s one of the big things that I hope people take from all these conversations. It is that every time we do something like this to protect a perpetrator, every time we say, “I’m going to be fair to both people, I’m going to invite both of you to this place, and anybody who can’t handle it, don’t come.” What you’re really saying is the perpetrator is going to be here and the victim won’t. Because you’re not giving them anything that’s possible to do. Victims can’t turn off their trauma and peacefully coexist. Even if they do manage to share space with the perpetrator, it always takes a toll, and that’s unfair. Everything is backwards: victim blaming and finding a support group for marriage problems or victims Nicole: It’s not right. Everything is totally backwards. Anne: Yeah. Well, the other issue that people don’t recognize is that he is still going to be abusing her. It could be a basketball game, whatever. The way he acts, the way he’s lying about her, the way he’s like, “Oh, she’s so crazy.” That is abuse. And he’s still doing it right now. So you haven’t stopped the abuse. It’s not like this happened in the past. She still needs some sort of support group for marriage problems or victims of emotional abuse. Nicole: And I would argue that even if nothing happens, that still is a continuation of the abuse as well. Because I think of all these scenarios where the perpetrator and victim are forced to share space. Again, kids are a common scenario. And everybody watching wants to see this cartoon villain of a perpetrator that doesn’t exist. And so instead they say, “He seemed nice, he was friendly to you, you seem like you’re the one who’s overreacting.” And that’s part of the plan too. A big part of that abuse is showing they can follow social norms, and treat people appropriately. And ultimately, it still leads to often, in this case, other people blaming the victim, questioning their legitimacy. That’s a lot of what perpetrators do in these proceedings. They come in and they don’t scream and yell. They’re not physically violent in that setting. And so people think, “Oh, he must be fine.” Anne: It’s called grooming, and grooming is abusive. So that IS the abuse. And they don’t realize they’re abused too, because he’s lying. No one is helping victims transfer to a new school Nicole: A good point. Anne: The same thing happens everyday with the courts with civil custody cases. that part where you said the university helped him transfer his stuff to the new school. No one is helping the victims do these things. No one’s helping wives in these scenarios. They have to find their own support group for marriage problems. Nicole: And that was one of the most glaring disparities of all. And there’s actually an academic concept that I think would be helpful to your listeners. It’s this idea of institutional betrayal. And institutional betrayal is defined as an institution’s actions or inactions that exacerbate trauma. So when they behave in a way that makes the traumatic experience more traumatic, and that’s one of the big things. How violent and traumatic an experience is for a victim is not set from the end of the violent event. It actually depends on everything that happens afterwards. So, you know, if you tell your friends, do they believe you? Do they take your side or your perpetrator’s side? Do you get control over what happens after the violence is over? Or is somebody reporting to the police against your will or putting you into these scenarios that you don’t want to be in against your will? Abuse is ultimately a violation of autonomy. And so every time an institution violates our autonomy again, that’s going to trigger those traumatic experiences. We find survivors experiencing institutional betrayal show the same traumatic symptoms as a sexual assault victim a second time in studies. It is an equal severity to that original act of violence. Institutional betrayal is overwhelming Nicole: Which is why it’s important that our institutions get this right, and for our friends and families to get this right too. Because a lot of people find this overwhelming. And I think it is overwhelming to think, “Wow, I thought the worst was over, but I could actually encounter something just as bad when I seek help,” is really overwhelming. But on the other hand, if we do get it right, we actually have the capacity to make this violence less damaging to victims. And that’s the place where I come out on a hopeful side. Survivors who, when they seek help and get it, have fewer traumatic symptoms. The traumatic impact of that original event is lessened. So that’s got to be our goal here: to step out of these damaging patterns just because it’s the way things are, or it’s what we’re used to, and oh, it would take work and change to do something different. Those aren’t good reasons. We should do the right thing because the stakes are really high. And we could really help a lot of people. Anne: I talk with victims every day. When couples therapists don’t help them, when clergy don’t help them, when police don’t help them, when the civil court system doesn’t help them, and when a support group for marriage problems doesn’t help them, my eye twitches. Nicole: I wanna say one of the things about institutional betrayal and the reasons why I think it’s important that people know how institutions can harm victims is that institutional betrayal can’t happen to the same severity if we already have some distrust for the institution. Setting realistic expectations when seeking a support group for marriage problems or victims Nicole: One of the key components is going to get help, and thinking you’re going to get it, and then not getting it. And so setting realistic expectations, not to lower the bar for these institutions, to know what can happen. Anne: That’s what the Living Free Workshop is for, anticipating. If you talk to clergy about this, this is likely what’s going to happen. Like know these things beforehand. The Living Free Workshop helps victims anticipate, because this has been driving me crazy for years. In my state, at the bottom of every article about domestic violence, every single one, there’s like a “Call the National Domestic Violence Hotline and then call our state domestic violence hotline.” And everyone thinks that’s the solution. They think reporting is the solution. They don’t realize that’s not the solution at all. In fact, one victim that I know, she recently had the department that oversees victim services contact her. And they were like, “Hey, we heard that you had a bad interaction with a police officer in this certain county.” We’re going to interview you. So she told them, ” Yeah, I’ve been working with this domestic violence shelter. I have a victim advocate.” She told him the whole story. She’s been working with a victim advocate at our local domestic violence shelter for over two years. They reviewed her case. And they got back to her, and guess what they said? They said, “Oh, your case is really, really bad. You need services. Have you contacted your local domestic violence shelter?” Nicole: Oh my. Go to a confidential community Anne: So it was like a full circle, you know. People in general think how we have to do is put this phone number on the bottom of a newspaper article and problem solved. And if she called that number and she’s still in this mess, it’s her fault because she didn’t use the services correctly. Nicole: So I think one of the questions I get a lot is, if a lot of these systems aren’t trustworthy, where can we go? And the response is to go to a confidential community like this one. That is different than a domestic violence service. You want one that’s confidential, because your group won’t call the police. The court can’t subpoena you. So if you have questions to try to make sense of all the options in your community, they can work through that with you without things snowballing out of your control. But that’s what I would say. Make sure you’re going somewhere confidential that will give you a lot of options, not just one option. Anywhere that’s pushing you back to one option is probably not the right place. I talk about these broader trends in how survivors lose their autonomy and become re-traumatized when they’re trying to find a good support group for marriage problems. What we’ve been talking about this whole time. Which is when a victim says, “I’ve experienced this, I’m dealing with these consequences, and I need help with these consequences.” They’re recast as punishing, and everything is focused on, “But that could be bad for the perpetrator.” That is one of the biggest red flags. Because you can’t just make that stuff go away. Like, trauma is trauma. It’s a physiological process. We can see evidence of it on the body. Recognizing consequences are not unfair to the perpetrator Nicole: You can’t just say, “Oh, you’re right. I don’t want anything bad to happen to my perpetrator.” So it goes away. That’s one of the ones to think about. Conflation between addressing the consequences that are inevitable, that will happen due to the action of sexual violence, or coercion or harassment, or whatever it is you’ve experienced, and acting as if recognizing those consequences is inherently unfair to the perpetrator. Anne: I was trying to explain this to someone once, and I said, “Can you imagine if a man had a business partner and that business partner stole a bunch of money from the business, and the guy couldn’t hold him accountable in court? And then everyone around him was telling him, “You have to attend church with this guy.” Nicole: Right, it’s suddenly so clear. It’s suddenly so clear that it would be unfair. Anne: And people say to me, that’s crazy. This is completely different. And I’m like, “What I’m talking about is like 50 billion times worse.” Nicole: Yeah. Anne: Thinking about it in terms of a man being forced to interact with someone who hurt him, they can’t even talk about that because they’re like, “that would never happen.” Women need to find a support group for marriage problems that understands this. Nicole: I mean, gender is such a big part of it, right? It is. Yeah. On a Title IX case, you would call it complainant and respondents, when those roles are reversed, usually in a retaliatory complaint. Where a real act of violence happened, the victim tried to report it, and the perpetrator responded by filing a second complaint saying, “Actually, I’m the true victim.” retaliatory complaints by perpetrators: help from a support group for marriage problems or victims Nicole: So again, a classic example of this is Johnny Depp versus Amber Heard, where he doesn’t argue that there was never any violence. He says she deserved it. Actually, she’s the abuser, and I think I’m the true victim. And the goal of these retaliatory complaints is really to muddle the narrative, to confuse any investigators and to try to intimidate the victim into dropping their original complaint. In those cases of retaliatory complaints, what I found is that the university didn’t care anymore about due process. When women were in the role of the accused, they faced a lot of consequences. I would actually argue punishment because they didn’t do anything. It can’t be consequences for their actions when all they did was report something someone else did to them. It really is a gender issue. There is a real sense that we should take the side of the man, no matter what he has done, because he is a leader, because he should have male privilege, or you know, whatever it might be. He’s the more important person, and so we should protect the more important person. And sometimes that comes out in really overtly misogynistic, obvious ways, and sometimes it’s a little bit more shielded in something more, called himpathy. So this concept of empathy comes from a philosopher named Kate Mann. And what it means is excessive empathy given to men at the expense of women. What this can look like in practice is somebody saying something like, “Well, you know, sexual abuse is horrible. It ruins the victim’s life. The best we can do is try to make sure it doesn’t ruin two lives instead of one.” Empathizing with the perpetrator Nicole: It’s truly unbelievable if I didn’t have the direct quotes from the administrator saying it. But it’s treated as this righteous thing is this idea of I’m a good person if I can empathize with even the most sort of deplorable people in our society. And it’s not hard to empathize with men in these cases. Our culture trains us to do this. The difficult thing is to empathize with the victim. Anne: Sorry, I can’t even, I can’t, I can’t. No wonder people don’t love me at church because I don’t sympathize with abusive men I’m like, I don’t care about him. And people are like, so offended. Nicole: Yeah, people are offended. Anne: And I’m like, why are you so offended? He’s a rapist. Why do you care about him? She needs a support group for marriage problems or victims. Nicole: I think that’s the place we need to get to, especially in this moment in society where most people are empathizing with the perpetrator. So this framework I was thinking about where everybody’s saying, “Oh, you know, I’m going to empathize with the perpetrator because it’s a hard thing to do.” Something administrators would say is, “Everybody’s going to side with the victim, because we all know rape is wrong. And so she’s going to have everybody in her corner. He doesn’t have anybody in his corner. So I’m going to be the person to show up for him.” And so what we need at the bare minimum is a whole group of people who will show up for the survivor in that same way to recognize the real reality, which is the perpetrator has so many people in his corner. Victims may lose friends, family and have to switch schools Nicole: The victim is the person who’s getting pushed out of her entire social group. One of the things that’s so traumatic about sexual violence is a lot of people lose all their friends, a lot of their family. They might have to switch schools or change jobs, because everybody is focusing on being “fair” to the perpetrator. None of this is fair. If what we’re doing for the perpetrator means the victim has to leave, it’s not fair. When we have an entire society where none of these systems are good at holding perpetrators accountable, it’s hard for people to imagine what that looks like. When we know that we can’t trust a lot of these systems, we have to handle this as individuals and as communities. Because the trauma is going to leave a lifelong impact for the victim. It’s never going away. And so if we say, “Well it’s been five years, why isn’t she over it yet?” That’s just not how it works. And I do think it’s really reasonable to say, “If you perpetrated a sexual assault, The bare minimum of consequences is if you see the victim in the grocery store at your new job. You turn around and you walk out and you go to a different grocery store, you get a different job.” This is very, very reasonable to ask for. Anne: 100 percent,I appreciate this conversation. Nicole, I’m so grateful you’re doing this work. Thank you so much for spending the time to talk about finding a safe support group for marriage problems and victims today. Nicole: Thank you for having me on. This has been great. These are the kinds of conversations that people need. I’m so glad I got to be here today. Anne: Yeah, thank you. Hailey’s Story of reporting on a campus Anne: So now a woman we’re gonna call Haley will actually share her story of reporting on a campus. Hers is specifically related to my faith, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and what she experienced at BYU. But I have heard stories like this from Jewish women, from Catholic women. We see these patterns everywhere. Including in a support group for marriage problems. Welcome Haley. Haley: Hi, thank you. Anne: Before we start, I received my associate degree from BYU Idaho, a million years ago. And when I went there, I loved the honor code. It helped me feel safe. For example, I felt so safe that my roommates weren’t allowed to have men in our apartment after 10:00 PM. Is that what it is? I don’t even remember. Haley: I think they bumped it up to midnight. I felt the same way as you. I chose to come to BYU because I wanted to be in a safer environment and I knew I was signing an honor code. Anne: I appreciate that, and I want to be clear: I don’t know exactly how the honor code operates today. This won’t be an anti–honor code discussion. Instead, we’re examining how institutions implement the honor code—and how that implementation harms victims of abuse in multiple ways. Haley: Like you mentioned, I had two run-ins with the honor code office. One my freshman year and one my senior year. And both times I was left feeling very alone, like I did something horrible. I felt a responsibility to speak out Haley: I felt like that my freshman year, and kept my mouth shut. Because I was embarrassed. I felt totally ashamed alone, so I kept quiet. I felt like I was in a different place when they called me in again. To put me back on probation at the end of my Senior year. I felt like it was my responsibility to speak out against what was going on. I had to wait to speak out until I got my diploma. Initially, I started just because I wanted to see if there was anyone else out there who felt the same way I did. I knew I had a few close friends and a few close family who had been through the honor code office and were treated poorly. So I gathered all our stories together. Really, it was like a support system. Even if five people could see it and feel like they weren’t alone, that would have been good enough for me. I know that you’re doing the same thing, allowing people to share their stories is healing for everyone. There’s something about being anonymous. You feel safe. Being able to tell other people what happened to you, and having other people say, “I am so sorry. I had no idea. I’m here for you.” I think it is healing. Anne: Yeah, it is so healing. I’m so grateful that so many women are willing to share their stories on my podcast. And I’m grateful that you’re here sharing yours today. The first time a perpetrator you had a restraining order against, was the one that turned you into the honor code office. And the second time it was your abusive ex-boyfriend. experiences with the honor code office Anne: Talk about how that felt to have the honor code office used as a weapon by abusive men. Haley: I had moved 2,000 miles away and started school. The first time I got called in, I was told that I was called in by a man from my past who had really hurt me. It was hurtful to sit on my counselor’s couch and tell her this was years behind me. Tell her who this man is, how he made me feel, and how I was scared of him. And how I wanted to put everything that had happened 2,000 miles away in my past behind me. I sat on her couch crying and said, “Please take my side. Please have my back. Here’s how he’s affected my life for years now, and I really need you to have my back. Especially now that I’m sitting here telling you who it was that reported me, I really need your protection.” And she responded and said, “It didn’t matter how I got caught. What mattered was that the Holy Spirit wanted me to get caught.” As a freshman, 18 years old, I was already terrified to be in there. Sitting across from the stranger I didn’t know, asking for help. And she told me it didn’t matter. That just felt sick. It was pretty discouraging. No offers for a victim support. And then the second time with the ex-boyfriend, it was frustrating because I told her, “Look, I have not talked to this kid in over a year. I’m so sorry for what happened. I’ve already dealt with it with my Bishop. I don’t understand why he can come in and jeopardize my future, my education and my diploma.” Blame for the problem: parallels with help for finding a support group for marriage problems Haley: She took his side and told me, “Well, he’s the one that came in, and he came in on his own goodwill, and you didn’t.” It was frustrating too, because he was Elder’s Quorum president at the time. Anne: For our listeners, that is a calling within the church that puts them in charge of the men’s organization. Haley: And she brought that up and wanted to remind me of his position in the church. And she told me that the spirit wasn’t in my home. And so it was harder for both parties to keep the commandments. So an ex-boyfriend turned me in. And having his calling thrown in my face was pretty hurtful. Anne: Wait, so she blamed you. Because apparently the Spirit’s not in your home. I’m being sarcastic here. The reason he acted poorly is all your fault. Haley: Right. I mean, she’s accusing me, asking if I am going to church, what my calling is, and what my relationship is with God. But she wanted to remind me of his position in church, and then put me in my place. And just for all those reasons, it was so hurtful. Anne: That is awful. I’m so sorry. I bet you felt so validated when people started sharing their stories, and women feel that with a good support group for marriage problems as well. Because you ended up reading thousands of other victim stories about the honor code office. What were some themes that you noticed? Theme’s in dealing with the Honor Code Office Haley: I noticed a lot of people who don’t even want to talk to anyone about what happened, which is scary. Another theme is that when they go into that office, they feel like it is their fault. I have had so many people say, my counselor told me that this is because I did this. This is because I wore this. I said this. Anne: If he’s using sexual coercion, getting him out of your apartment by 10:00 PM would have been almost impossible. They might say, “It’s your fault you were raped because you let him stay longer than 10:00 PM.” I mean, there are so many elements with sexual coercion. People really don’t understand. Haley: They did try to separate the Title IX office and the Honor Code office. People are still unfortunately not reporting. Because they’re still afraid that when they go in there, somehow to get looped into the honor code office. And in a lot of cases, it still has. BYU says their policy has changed, but unfortunately, the policy is not what’s practiced. Anne: We see that with bishops too. The policy is: We have no tolerance for abuse in the church. And yet victims say, “My husband is using pornography. He is lying to me. He’s having sex with other women.” They need an understanding of what safety looks like in a support group for marriage problems. In The Proclamation to the Family, people who engage in infidelity and abuse will be held accountable. And instead, a bishop might say, what are you doing wrong? How could you help the situation? Have you heard any stories where the victim had a good experience going to the honor code office? Advice for victims Haley: I do have stories where women went in and said, “Here’s who it is, here’s what he’s done.” And BYU has expelled them. Someone that I’m very close to has a story very similar to this. Even though they expelled the man, she never heard from the honor code office again. And that’s another issue too. If you are a woman and finally do have the courage to go tell BYU what’s going on, and let’s say best case scenario, they do kick this student out of school. I can’t speak for the whole school in general, but a lot of these students are still saying they’re not there for me. For the most part. They just don’t feel like the university in general has their back with this. Anne: So from your own experience and from reading all these stories that you’ve received, what would you want current students who are sexual assault victims to hear? Haley: I would first want them to know that they are not alone. I don’t know how comforting that can be for everyone, but I know at least for the people I’ve talked with, just hearing that this isn’t just happening to them. And there are other women out there who are feeling this way too. And people that you can turn to and trust and share your story with is really important. Like what happens with a good support group for marriage problems. Overwhelming and heartwarming to connect with others in a support group for marriage problems or victims Haley: Also, we do not want these stories to discourage students from turning in these kinds of cases. BYU does have a victim advocate that does a good job, from what I’ve been told at protecting students. I just want every sexual assault victim to know that it is not your fault, and that every time they speak up for what has happened to them, they’re speaking up for all the women behind them. It’s been overwhelming and so heartwarming to see even other female students who will comment and DM me. Like, if this is your story, message me. I will take you out to lunch. I want to talk to you. I’m here for you. If you ever need anyone, send me a message to this Instagram. I just want them to know that there are people out there who care so much, love them, and want them to be on campus.We love the church and the school. We don’t want to leave. Students know what they signed. So we’re not here to fight the standards on campus. We are really just looking for protection for our students within the honor code office. Something has to change. Anne: I’m so grateful for you sharing your story and grateful for anyone willing to have an ongoing layered conversation about these topics and finding a safe support group for marriage problems.ƒ It’s not like we just talk about this issue once and then it goes away, right? It has to be an ongoing layered conversation in order to make meaningful change. Haley: Right. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. It was so good to talk with you. I would love to meet you one day. I really enjoyed our conversations.