More or Less

Episodios

• Silicon Valley IPO Summer 2026: SpaceX, Anthropic, OpenAI Explained 05.06.2026 45m

  Brit subs in for Jess as Sam and Dave unpack the AI IPO boom, including SpaceX, Anthropic, and Cerebras, debate whether AI agents can actually replace employees, and react live to the discovery that Slow’s @slow Instagram account was stolen through a Meta AI support exploit. The conversation spans OpenClaw’s enterprise push, recent AI funding rounds, the AI wrapper debate, and Sam’s latest investing thesis that startup pitches should look more like movie trailers than decks, before ending with a pop culture corner into Taylor Swift, AI-generated podcasts for kids, and the future of TBPN after the OpenAI deal.Chapters:02:53 AI IPO Season: SpaceX, Anthropic & Cerebras05:29 Narrative Capitalism: Storing Value in Stories11:34 What the AI IPO Wave Means for Silicon Valley15:02 Microsoft Build: OpenClaw Goes Enterprise17:38 Would You Trade Your Employee for an AI Agent?25:19 LIVE: Slow Ventures’ Instagram Gets Hacked via Meta AI30:04 Are AI Harnesses Just Fancy PDFs?31:49 Recent AI Raises & the SaaS Comeback33:01 The New Pitch: Movie Trailers Over Decks41:17 AI-Generated Podcasts, Voice Cloning & Consumer AI42:54 TBPN Update: Post-OpenAI DealWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/oYmxx8ElGHkConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
• Did Anthropic Use the Pope as a Marketing Stunt? Ft. Amir Efrati 29.05.2026 50m

  This week on More or Less, Amir Efrati of The Information joins Jessica, Brit, and Dave to unpack the growing intersection of AI, government, and national security, from the rumored stalled executive AI order to why frontier model companies may soon face deeper U.S. oversight and pre-release access demands. The group debates whether slowing AI adoption is really a pricing and UX problem, why AI agents are causing token consumption to explode, and whether most consumers even want an always-on personal agent. They also dive into the geopolitical implications of data centers and open-source software, AI’s impact on entertainment and voice cloning, Hollywood’s anxiety over originality, and the strange new world where even papal writings prompt questions about whether AI had a hand in shaping the message.Chapters:1:57 — AI Predictions, Whispering to Models & Forecasting the Future4:37 — AI, National Security & the Trump Administration6:52 — The Pope’s AI Document, Closed Models & Security Risks11:56 — AI Regulation, Job Fears & Public Sentiment15:45 — Is AI Adoption Slowing Down? Pricing, ROI & Enterprise Reality21:00 — Agents, CIOs & Whether Mainstream Users Will Ever Embrace AI36:00 — AI Entertainment, Voice Cloning & Hollywood’s Future41:52 — Going Off-Grid, Book Recommendations & Digital Detoxes47:00 — Mark Rober, CrunchLabs & the $10,000 Bullseye StoryWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/OyC7N42o36sConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
• SpaceX IPO Date Talk + OpenAI Confidential Filing Rumors 22.05.2026 52m

  This week on More or Less, the crew unpacks IPO speculation around OpenAI and SpaceX, debates whether AI’s economics ultimately favor recurring API spend or owning infrastructure outright, questions if Google’s distribution advantage is enough to win the AI race despite muddled product execution, and wrestles with whether today’s AI valuations are driven by real fundamentals or pure mimetic momentum, alongside broader debates on broken AI user experience, data center concentration risk, agentic search killing SEO, and whether skilled trades like plumbing may ultimately prove more durable than many white-collar jobs in the AI era.Chapters:01:35 — Brit’s fish disaster story + the fish microbiome economy04:50 — Dell World, AI PCs, and the tokenomics debate (API spend vs. owning infrastructure)11:00 — Google I/O recap: agentic search, generative UI, Android glasses, and whether Google is actually back16:30 — Google’s UX problem: why AI still feels broken for normal users20:00 — Anthropic vs. Google: focused monolith vs. sprawling empire22:10 — OpenAI IPO speculation + Anthropic’s mega-round: what do you have to believe at $1T valuations?29:30 — The “hate invest” thesis: public sentiment, retail risk, and crypto déjà vu34:20 — Portfolio debate: SpaceX vs. Anthropic vs. OpenAI35:00 — Sam builds an AI token pricing dashboard live + how companies actually burn $30K/month on tokens37:00 — What’s next in AI research? Memory, world models, and where infra plays went42:30 — White House AI model oversight rumors + OpenAI’s Elon legal update50:10 — AI side projects, kids learning to code, and why plumbers may win the AI eraWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/moreorlesspodConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
• Google's AI-First Laptop, Meta's Spy Games, AI Monks in Middle America 15.05.2026 45m

  The squad is complete again, and Sam arrives with a NeuroPod, cold plunge updates, red light therapy, Oura stats, and enough supplements to start a wellness startup. Then into the week’s biggest tech stories: Google’s new AI device and whether it’s the Chromebook of the AI era or another doomed health-tech experiment, Meta’s keystroke logging controversy, Microsoft’s increasingly awkward OpenAI bet, why OpenAI and Anthropic are now sending engineers directly into enterprises to drive adoption, and what tools like OpenClaw, Py, and Codex actually do. Plus, Anthropic’s eye-watering latest valuation, the clean girl aesthetic discourse, Brian Johnson chaos, and Sam personally buying Jackson Hole ski passes like it’s 1997Chapters:00:46 Sam’s NeuroPod, Oura Results & Biohacking Spiral03:33 Sam vs. Brian Johnson + The Female Biohacker Opportunity05:09 Oura Ring vs. Whoop + Google’s Wearables Ambition07:00 Google’s AI-First “Book” Laptop + DeepMind’s Health Push10:30 Why Local AI Changes Everything (Speed, Cost & Compute)15:00 Where Is the OpenAI Consumer Device?16:00 Voice AI, Recording & the Future of Human-Computer Input20:30 Sam Built His Own Voice-to-AI App22:31 Meta’s Keystroke Logging: Spy Games or Honeypot?24:00 Fake AI Jobs + Sam’s “Fin Analytics” Prediction27:02 OpenAI & Anthropic’s Enterprise Conversion Strategy29:31 The AI Backlash Is Real (Including UCF’s Commencement Revolt)31:30 Microsoft’s $100B OpenAI Problem39:31 Anthropic’s Massive Raise + SF Real Estate Absurdity41:30 OpenClaw, Py & Codex: What Is a Harness?We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYoutube: https://youtu.be/-O3zyxR-wS0Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
• Why the Met Gala Hates Tech, Elon vs OpenAI Drama, and the Rise of Chinese AI Models 08.05.2026 59m

  Jess, Britt, and Dave unpack everything from Home Depot runs and closet “re-jiggers” to the internet’s growing backlash against tech wealth, AI, and Silicon Valley culture. The squad debates whether the Met Gala became a symbol of “techlash,” how layoffs and AI anxiety are reshaping public sentiment, and whether AI will actually democratize opportunity or simply concentrate power faster. They also dive into the wild new AI alliances between Anthropic, Elon, and hyperscalers, the latest OpenAI vs Elon trial drama, and why product adoption, not regulation, will decide the future of AI. Plus, Dave shares major OpenClaw updates, real-world AI workflow automations, Meta fork rumors, and the surprisingly relatable use case of turning meeting transcripts into family “receipt printer” briefings. Rounded out with solo movie dates, Taylor Swift theories, Star Wars discourse, and the state of flake culture.Chapters:00:58 Jess' Home Renovation Project While Sam is Out03:54 Met Gala: When the Bezoses Became the Story07:13 Techlash, Wealthlash, and the AI Jobs Backlash09:36 Trump’s Surprise Pivot Toward AI Regulation11:51 China, Open-Source Models, and Dave’s $5K Blackwell Desktop14:13 The Optimistic Case: AI as the Great Wealth Equalizer17:55 The Pessimistic Case: Tools Democratize, Economics Consolidate19:43 What Changes Public Sentiment: Better Products, Not Better Arguments22:42 Layoffs: Pandemic Hangover or AI Substitution?27:56 Why Almost No One Is Actually Using AI Yet33:15 Anthropic’s Compute Scramble and the SpaceX/Colossus Deal36:27 Dario vs. Elon: Two Very Different Operators39:55 The OpenAI vs. Musk Trial: TMZ or Substance?45:33 Polymarket, Twitter-Mention Betting, and ChatGPT Comeback46:42 OpenClaw Update: Foundation, Plugin Architecture, China Forks50:08 Granola + Claude Code: Replacing Salesforce in 30 Minutes53:36 Devil Wears Prada, Solo Movie Dates, and the Death of Journalism55:01 Music & Pop Culture: Ella Langley, Teddy Swims, Toy Story 556:36 Why Star Wars Keeps MissingWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/138ne91NkiQConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
• Elon Musk vs OpenAI Trial, Google Cloud Surge, Meta’s Blocked Acquisition, Anthropic Winning 01.05.2026 1h 1m

  This week on More or Less, the crew kicks off with a very on-brand derail—Stagecoach turning into a wind-blown 90s reunion-turned-half-capacity vibe, segueing into a chaotic trend report of “booty shorts vs. jorts” before Jessica reframes it as “OpenAI or jorts.” From there, it’s into the real storylines: the Musk v. OpenAI trial in Oakland (Altman and Brockman showing up, Musk posturing, and the judge shutting down theatrics), and whether it’s substance or just WWE for tech. The AI race heats up with reports of ChatGPT missing targets while Anthropic pulls ahead, sparking a broader debate on whether frontier models are sliding into commodity territory—Sam argues narrative over fundamentals while Dave pushes on open-source pressure and who actually foots the data center bill. The conversation expands into geopolitics (regulatory capture, China’s open-source momentum, Meta’s blocked agent play) and earnings (Google Cloud riding Anthropic demand), landing on a sneaky insight: AI’s real cost explosion might be storage, not tokens. They close with a rapid-fire culture sweep—Maria Sharapova’s podcast, NYT rankings, Elon’s Mars comp fantasy, Met Gala backlash, and the final punchline: YouTube growth is way more gameable than anyone wants to admit.Chapters: 00:34 — Stagecoach Chaos: Tornado Winds & Half-Crowd Vibes 01:43 — Summer Trend Report: Booty Shorts vs. Jorts 02:56 — “OpenAI or Jorts?” The Hard Pivot 04:15 — Musk vs OpenAI Trial Begins (And It’s Already Messy) 06:40 — Gag Orders, Jury Drama & Musk’s Opening Stunt 09:03 — Is This Lawsuit Just WWE for Tech? 11:46 — Anthropic Passes OpenAI?! The AI Power Shift 13:57 — AI Is Becoming a Commodity (Sam’s Take) 15:24 — The Real Cost of AI: Tokens vs Labor 18:53 — Open Source Is Eating Everything 21:08 — Outcome-Based Pricing: Fix or Race to Zero? 23:16 — “This Is a Bad Business” (But Everyone Uses It) 26:04 — The Only AI Moat: Regulation or Narrative 29:02 — Why Frontier Models Still Matter 32:04 — China, Open Source & AI Geopolitics 35:06 — Meta’s Blocked AI Deal (Spy Game Energy) 38:07 — Google Wins the AI Race (For Now) 41:23 — The $5B Opportunity Nobody’s Talking About 43:34 — The Real AI Trade: Storage > Tokens 46:58 — Investing Is Dead, Long Live Narrative We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/EkpYTFmS4AkConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
• What Tim Cook’s “Executive Chairman” Move Really Means | Musk vs OpenAI, xAI and Cursor Rumors 24.04.2026 52m

  The full quad is back and we're getting right into the tech drama: AI backlash (from Reese Witherspoon to everyday skepticism), breakthrough science like CRISPR entering its “it actually works” era, and major power shifts across tech — from Apple succession chatter to Jensen Huang’s leadership moments and the brewing battle between OpenAI and Elon Musk. They squad digs into SpaceX IPO dynamics, the rise of “traces” data as the next AI battleground, and what happens when AI gives more people the power to build. Chapters:0:17 — Welcome Back: Full Quad Edition1:07 — Creatine, AI Stuffies, and the Opening Chaos4:37 — Breakthrough Prize & CRISPR Finally Working5:47 — One-of-One Gene Therapy Becomes Real7:07 — The AI Backlash Is Real8:47 — UBI vs. Meaning: The Real Debate10:57 — Jensen’s “I Didn’t Wake Up a Loser Today” Moment12:47 — Apple Succession: Tim Cook → John Ternus16:17 — Asset Prices vs. Reality21:17 — Elon vs. OpenAI: The Trial27:07 — SpaceX IPO: Biggest in History?29:27 — xAI, Cursor, and the $60B Bet36:07 — Traces Data: The Next AI Battleground40:07 — Workplace Surveillance & Employee Data48:27 — Who Gets to Build? (6B Users vs. 50M Builders)51:07 — AI: Equalizer or Concentrator?We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/bjePLXg64n0Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
• Allbirds Pivoted to AI Data Centers | SpaceX $1.5T IPO, Anthropic $800B, $175M Seed Rounds 17.04.2026 44m

  SpaceX might be the biggest IPO ever but there’s a math problem no one’s pricing in. Once you factor in capital gains, you need to believe it’ll underperform the market by ~50% just to justify selling. That creates an invisible floor under mega-cap stocks and a market increasingly detached from reality. Meanwhile: Allbirds goes from $4B to $40M and pivots to “NewBird AI.” Seed valuations hit $175M — 3x YoY, above 2021 peak. And AI labs are allegedly planting stories on each other. This week on More or Less: SpaceX’s $19B revenue / $5B losses, the AI bubble, Anthropic $800B rumors, and why fund math is breakingChapters:0:00 — Waymo vs. Uber: the autonomous tipping point8:29 — Allbirds: $4B → $40M → “NewBird AI”12:56 — Boom Supersonic and the data center pivot15:17 — SpaceX IPO: bulls vs. bears16:14 — The tax problem no one is pricing in20:16 — Can mega-cap still 50x?26:47 — SpaceX breakdown: Starlink vs. launch28:20 — Anthropic $800B rumors30:08 — OpenAI vs. Anthropic: leaks and competition31:08 — The model switching problem (no real moat)33:36 — AI behavior shift: “ask the agent”38:17 — AI labs running oppo research40:05 — Seed valuations surpass 2021 peak42:00 — Fund math is brokenWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/FQ5TEs_3Dq8Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
• Vercel CEO: 70% of Our Traffic Is Now AI Agents "Nobody Was Prepared" | Anthropic, OpenClaw, OpenAI 10.04.2026 47m

  Vercel CEO Guillermo Rauch breaks down the explosive rise of AI agents and what it means for the future of software infrastructure. He joins the Morins to unpack why Anthropic cut off OpenClaw users, why the SaaS subscription model is breaking down, how agents are reshaping cloud infrastructure, and why a new wave of “supergeniuses” (from neurosurgeons to 17-year-olds) are building things no one thought possible. Plus: dreams.md, the future of personal agents, and why agents are becoming the new computer.Chapters:00:42 Intro: Guillermo Rauch, CEO and Founder of Vercel01:48 Vercel Explodes 5X Growth and AI Traffic Surge03:51 Why Anthropic Shut Down OpenClaw Users04:47 Coding Agents Are the Path to AGI07:57 70 Percent of Vercel Traffic Is Now AI09:50 SaaS Is Dead Pay Per Token Takes Over13:16 Anthropic vs OpenClaw Closed vs Open Agents14:47 The Hidden Risk of AI Data and Training16:38 Why Everyone Wants Their Own AI18:08 The Shift to Agent Native Infrastructure19:45 Vibe Coded Apps Are Going Viral21:42 The AI Wars Anthropic OpenAI Elon23:15 Dreams md Self Improving AI Agents25:44 Memory Theory of Mind and Agent Intelligence28:05 Your AI Should Travel With You30:00 Enterprise AI and Domain Expert Agents31:15 How Vercel Became an AI Native Company33:06 Hiring in the Age of AI Agents36:03 The Rise of Supergeniuses38:10 Inside Slows Creator AI Hackathon40:06 AI Agents Are the New Customers41:18 Moving Up the Stack Again42:05 What Happens in the Next 12 Months43:48 AI Will Break Cloud and SecurityWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/f43JCxhKLEgConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
• AI Agents Destroying Internet Security (Anthropic's Leak, ClawCon Tokyo, OpenAI's $852B Valuation) 03.04.2026 47m

  Sam Lessin accidentally emailed 40 of Silicon Valley's most important people using an AI bot — and that one mishap reveals everything broken about the AI security model right now. In this episode, Sam and Dave Morin (calling in from ClawCon Tokyo) argue that AI agents are quietly dismantling every security assumption the internet was built on: from open-source package trust chains to content moderation walls to the entire premise of software moats. Meanwhile, Jessica Lessin shares her own Claude Code disaster that proves even careful people are one 'approve' click away from chaos. The team also tears apart OpenAI's $852 billion valuation, debate whether 10 million software developers are about to become irrelevant, and explain why a professional skier in Alaska just built the app she'd been pitching for two years — in a single afternoon.Chapters: We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/Gv-VUTGVNT8Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
• The New Startup Stack: One Founder + Agents | Henrik Werdelin (Audos) and Ben Broca (Polsia) 27.03.2026 54m

  Jess and Brit take the reins on this week's More or Less — and they're not exactly missing their husbands. They're joined by Henrik Werdelin (Audos), who's building a platform that takes solo founders from zero to funded company using AI agents, and Ben Broca (Polsia), a literal one-human, zero-employee founder who argues AGI is already here. What follows is a sharp, funny debate about whether solo "donkeycorns" are the future of entrepreneurship, where AI actually hits its limits, and why defensibility in an AI world might come down to the most analog thing of all — knowing yourself and the humans you serve.Chapters:1:05 — Britt & Jess take over More or Less3:15 — Meet Henrik Werdelin (Audos) & Ben Broca (Polsia)5:00 — The Donkeycorn Era: Solo founders making millions with AI8:15 — "AGI Is Here" — Ben's case for one founder, zero employees10:30 — Jess vs. Ben: "My Claude can't remember" / "Skill issue"17:00 — When AI suggested fecal transplant businesses (Henrik's wild early experiments)19:00 — Relationship Capital: The real moat in an AI world23:00 — Building an economy, not a tool — Ben's vision for Polsia25:30 — Will AI democratize opportunity or just commoditize it?32:00 — Bot Etiquette: When your AI emails psychics on your behalf40:00 — The Sora Shutdown: "It's all just electricity"42:30 — Is speed the only moat? Anthropic vs. OpenAI46:30 — The Brain Gym: Why knowing yourself matters more than ever52:00 — Wrap: SpaceX IPO, Aura IPO, and "Me, My Customer, and AI"We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/x5ybaEqOEsUConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
• Nvidia's GTC, Apple Blocking Vibe-Coding Apps, Meta's Rogue AI Agent 20.03.2026 58m

  It’s going to be a dense episode on OpenClaw—and another classic example of how skeptical Sam is about its future, battling against Dave. The episode starts with Dave’s announcement: The OpenClaw Foundation is now a chartered Delaware nonprofit. Then: GTC. Jessica hits the floor, takes seven selfies, and watches Jensen go for three hours with no notes. Dave explains why Nvidia gave OpenClaw 30 minutes of keynote time: NemoClaw, OpenShell, enterprise guardrails, local models, on-prem everything. Jessica breaks down The Information’s story about a rogue AI agent tripping internal security at Meta—which becomes the perfect setup for a broader point: trust isn’t a feature; it’s the entire game. Then Apple. BitRig—built by the people who literally created SwiftUI—has been stuck in App Store review since November because Guideline 2.5.2 says apps can’t download and execute code that changes functionality. The security logic tracks. Apple’s selective enforcement history? Less so. The crew closes with the part nobody’s ready for: Morin’s 11-year-old just formed his first LLC for a vibe-coded iOS game, and a group of 12-year-olds at an AI school in Austin out-shipped every adult developer at ClawCon.Chapters:02:14 - NVIDIA GTC Preview & Episode Roadmap02:54 - The Rise of the "Master of Bots" Role04:39 - Bot Anxiety & the Luxury AI vs. Cheap AI Divide08:55 - NVIDIA GTC: Jensen as AI's Storyteller-in-Chief17:21 - Nemo Claw, OpenShell & NVIDIA's Big OpenClaw Moment23:02 - What Even Is OpenClaw? Sam Challenges Dave29:51 - Breaking News: Rogue AI Agent Triggers Meta Security Alert38:54 - OpenAI's Enterprise Pivot & the Anthropic Revenue Race43:00 - Apple vs. Vibe Coding Apps: The App Store Bottleneck51:34 - Kids, Claws & Cool Family Tech (Board.fun, Next Playground)We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/PYJawV55QcUConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
• Anthropic’s Bet on Coding Is Working (OpenAI Shopping Pivot, A16Z’s Top 50 List, $1B Tennis Channel) 13.03.2026 58m

  It’s an AI-heavy episode with real stakes: Jessica digs into OpenAI’s evolving approach to shopping and why “closing the loop” on commerce could be the proving ground for consumer monetization. The group sparrs over charts: OpenAI vs. Anthropic annualized revenue, what “slope” investors actually care about, and whether Anthropic’s developer-first strategy (code, tokens, and high ARPU) is the smarter path than consumer mindshare.Sam argues that “intelligence” is heading toward a global, frictionless commodity market (bad for margins, great for usage) and introduces the idea of “dark pools” (proprietary access/data/relationships) as the only durable moat. Dave counters with the more optimistic take: AI is collapsing the line between “consumer” and “developer,” turning everyone into a builder, and launching a new creative medium (with examples spanning from software to film). Brit adds fuel with “nano-targeted” commerce and a tour through A16Z’s Top 50 GenAI web products list, highlighting both mainstream shifts and the internet’s… more ‘unexpected’ categories.Finally: a truly out-of-left-field deal pitch from Jess: should someone buy the Tennis Channel for ~$1B? Plus a rapid-fire pop culture close (Kelce’s return, Oscars bets, and what everyone’s watching) before Sam heads back to the sauna.Chapters:0:00 — Intro & Sam's Sauna Hat1:33 — First-Ever MOL Podcast Ad3:54 — ChatGPT's Shopping Pivot7:19 — The Chart: OpenAI vs Anthropic Revenue11:52 — The Slope: Linear or Super Linear?16:10 — Commerce Is Bad. Attention Is Good.19:04 — AI Is Turning Everyone Into a Builder20:15 — "$1B Raised, $900M spent on Inference"23:17 — AI Is Worse Than the Cable Business35:58 — Dark Pools: Death of the Open Marketplace40:45 — The P50 Problem: What Happens to Average People?42:38 — "Software Is Totally Commoditized"45:43 — Brit's Bot Corner: Anime Husband Chatbots 50:44 — Should You Buy the Tennis Channel for $1B?54:22 — Pop Culture CornerWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/moreorlesspodOn demand reactions powered by AI: https://molchat.ai/ Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
• Fire Sam Altman, The End of Software Engineers, and Why AI Is All Narrative 06.03.2026 51m

  This week the squad breaks down the Anthropic vs OpenAI drama (Fire Sam Altman is trending again), debates whether Apple is quietly winning the AI race by spending $0 while everyone else burns $100 billion, and confronts the question no one in Silicon Valley wants to answer: why aren't 200,000 software engineers talking about losing their jobs? Sam's answer: "Because it would be to admit you're in the 200,000 getting fired, not the 200,000 getting paid more." Plus: is China winning the open source AI phenomenon, is a recession coming (Lux Capital thinks so), and how Sam believes “code is just content” despite having built six apps in a week while on conference calls, including an AI clone of the podcast using everyone's real voices. It’s your weekly dive of More or Less. Chapters: 1:30 — Fire Sam Altman Trending Again: Dario's Leaked Slack Memo10:15 — Sam's Vibe Coding Week: 6 Apps Including AI Versions of the Hosts17:00 — Why AI Content Tends to Zero20:00 — Apple M5 Chip: The Local AI Inference Play23:30 — Block Cuts 40% of Workforce 25:30 — Will 200,000 Bay Area Software Engineers Lose Their Jobs? 30:00 — "Code Wins Arguments — But Now Everyone Can Code"34:30 — Josh Wolfe's (Lux Capital) Recession Warning Email 36:30 — The Triangle Trade: DC, Silicon Valley & Wall Street's Narrative Collusion39:00 — Yemen/Houthi Strike & Defense Tech41:00 — Is Open Source AI a Chinese Phenomenon?46:00 — The Second Wave: Agents Are the Website of This Era49:00 — David's Protein Ice Cream We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/UIdKqkNCymQConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
• Apple, OpenAI & Why Nobody Makes Money in AI | The SaaS Apocalypse 27.02.2026 47m

  Starting with a mini celebration: Dave defends his ski racing crown, before Sam declares software dead and capitalism broken. Even among GPs at Upfront Summit, the mood is uncertain: nobody knows whether to invest in software anymore, and many are quietly struggling to raise.The debate heats up over whether AI will democratize software creation or just accelerate capitalism's race to zero margins. Sam argues that when intelligence becomes abundant, it becomes worthless, making the entire AI industry, and by extension Silicon Valley, "pretty bad business." Dave counters that we're about to see a Cambrian explosion of software creators, finally giving billions of people agency over their digital lives.Plus: whether Stripe should buy PayPal during this opportunistic Trump-administration window, Gen Z panic-buying original iPods, Sam's shitposting-to-funding pipeline, and whether OnlyFans has the best KYC in fintechChapters:7:24 - Upfront Summit: Where Are All the LPs?10:49 - Are VCs Still Investing in Software?12:04 - Slow Ventures Going Contrarian: Investing While Others Freeze13:27 - When Intelligence Goes to Zero: Why AI is Bad Business15:53 - Polsia: $100K to $700K ARR in One Week (AI Agents Only)19:39 - Capitalism's Black Hole: AI Makes Markets Too Efficient25:00 - Creator Fund Thesis: Investing in Cults, Not Content28:20 - Who Makes Money When Margins Hit Zero?34:41 - Silicon Valley's Advantage is DEAD (The Magic Wizard Hat)37:35 - Who Should Buy PayPal? (Stripe's One-Shot Window)42:11 - Agentic Commerce: Do Payment Networks Even Matter?45:18 - OpenAI Smart Speaker: Eddie Cue's Son Working on It46:51 - Gen Z Buying Original iPods: The Analog RebellionWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/moreorlesspodConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
• OpenClaw vs Meta vs OpenAI: The Personal Agent Wars Heat Up 20.02.2026 56m

  In this episode of More or Less, we go from Sam's urgent care drama to the hottest debates in AI. Dave dives into his news about joining the OpenClaw Foundation board as the fastest-growing open source project in internet history faces a new chapter. While the OpenClaw founder is heading to OpenAI, Meta is launching competing agents, and the battle for personal AI is officially ON. How the "Internet of Putting iPads on Things" era returning, Anthropic vs Pentagon drama, whether AI intelligence will become worthless like cheap electricity, and why your 'normie' friends will be sending you their vibe-coded apps within 12 months.Chapters:3:02 Sam's Ski Injury Saga 5:00 OpenClaw Founder Going To OpenAI & Dave's Foundation Role 8:07 OpenClaw vs. Manus (On-Device vs. Cloud)11:02 Vibe Coding: Building an App a Day12:03 Meta vs. OpenAI Rivalry 22:00 The Fundraising Market: Mega Rounds & Narrative Capitalism27:04 The Big Debate: Bay Area Engineers in 3 Years 41:01 Anthropic vs. The Pentagon45:01 Intelligence as a Commodity53:50 Tennis with Madison Keys plug We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/3CewrGGMjRIConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
• Why OpenAI Can't Win The Decentralized AI Future (OpenClaw, Apple's Win, X.AI Exodus) 13.02.2026 1h

  We're recording this from Jackson Hole after three days of wheeling and dealing—and yes, canceling meetings for powder. This week we're going deep on OpenClaw. The meetup had 1,500 people show up (Kevin Rose, Marissa Mayer, Ashton Kutcher were some notable guests). And now we're all spending thousands of dollars a month on AI agents we've named after Friends characters while debating whether "developer" is even a job title anymore.We talk about:•⁠ ⁠Why founders are working 24/7 and possibly burning out•⁠ ⁠The decentralized AI future (and why it's not great for OpenAI)•⁠ ⁠Dark software factories where only agents write code•⁠ ⁠Whether everyone's jobs are about to disappear (spoiler: we disagree)•⁠ ⁠The SaaS-pocalypse coming for legacy software•⁠ ⁠Personal AI sovereignty and why Apple's just sitting back laughingAlso: Google's CC assistant is… fine? And we have strong opinions about Heated Rivalry.Chapters:0:00 - Intro: Skiing in Jackson Hole2:30 - Conference Takeaways: Founders Are Working Relentlessly 7:15 - AI Burnout & the 24/7 Work Cycle12:40 - Naming Your AI Agents (Friends Edition)15:20 - How Much Are You Spending on Bots?18:45 - Google CC Assistant Review22:10 - OpenClaw Meetup: 1500 People Show Up28:30 - What Even Is a Developer Anymore?35:50 - OpenAI vs Decentralized AI: The Big Debate42:15 - Personal AI & Data Sovereignty47:20 - Dark Software Factories & Agentic Engineering52:10 - Are All the Jobs Going Away?55:40 - The SaaS Apocalypse58:20 - Pop Culture: Heated Rivalry, Nancy Guthrie Case, StrangersWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/KUA7ue5vB1EConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
• SpaceX + xAI Merger, Google Earnings, and and the Bot-Filled Internet 06.02.2026 50m

  This week on More or Less, three-quarters of the squad goes full AI-agent mode with Morin’s ClawCon, Sam’s LinkedIn bots, and Brit’s bot-agent-supervisor. We kick things off with The Information’s breaking story (and potentially trade of the year): Elon’s $1.2T SpaceX + xAI merger. Then we unpack why Jess thinks Jeff Bezos should sell The Washington Post, why media has to own the audience, and how “vibe buys,” cult capitalism, and winner-take-all narratives are still the real moats shaping where money flows. The Dead Internet Theory starts feeling uncomfortably real and we touch on why the future swings back to IRL and community-driven experiences. Plus: the Super Bowl in NorCal, Brit’s Grammys rundown, and a cameo teaser.Chapters:00:53 – Dave and MSG’s ClawCon04:05 – Super Bowl Week in NorCal04:31 – Today’s Agenda: SpaceX + xAI, WaPo Layoffs, AI Fatigue, Super Bowl Week in NorCal05:33 – SpaceX + xAI Merger: Elon’s Narrative Assets and the Deal’s Winners & Losers17:27 – Washington Post Layoffs and Why Bezos Should Sell21:19 – Google Cloud Crushes Earnings22:22 – B2B vs. B2C: Is OpenAI Throwing Spaghetti at the Wall?29:44 – Claude’s “No Ads” Jab at OpenAI32:12 – The Squad’s OpenClaw Experiments41:39 – Dead Internet Theory45:55 – Super Bowl Logistics47:26 – Pop Culture Corner: Grammys Recap49:08 – Disney Names Parks Leader as CEOWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/sbhGfYsFUlsConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
• Agentic AI Will Break the Internet (ClawdBot, OpenAI & the AI Demand Delusion) 30.01.2026 56m

  Jessica is back from Davos and is recapping her highlights on the pod this week. If you’re a loyal podcast ‘viewer’, you’re in luck because Jess also brought photos from a recent Grace Cathedral sound bath visit before she dives deep into the Clawdbot/Moltbot/agentic moment. Dave is all in on what’s to come in this new age of agentic computers, and in true Sam fashion, he is less impressed by the technology and suggests that if the trend continues, it’s going to be bye bye internet. In the land of the other ‘mature’ AI companies, Jess recaps her Davos AI infra panel’s red-pill take on AI with the killer quote of the week: “the appetite for intelligence is limitless.” But how true is all this demand and how much of it is really narrative? Could the rise in gold and silver prices really be a sign of technology shorting? The crew also reacts to the Minneapolis situation, debating whether it’s a scaling issue at ICE or a political move. Chapters:00:30 — Jess Returns From Davos: No Snow, All SXSW Energy 03:40 — Grace Cathedral Sound Baths06:25 — Moltbot Heat Spike: Are AI Agents Ending the Internet? 17:29 — Moltbot Has no Moat; Founders Should Be Memorable Instead21:26 — Inside the Davos AI Panel: CoreWeave, G42, OpenAI & BlackRock’s Red Pill 29:47 — Minneapolis, ICE, and How the Valley Is Reacting 51:03 — The AI Chatbot Trap for Retail (And Why Everyone Will Fall for It) We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/OZDFAvRq7GcConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
• From ClawdBots to Sauna Bros: Silicon Valley in 2026 23.01.2026 49m

  While Jess is off being “Davos-famous,” the squad kicks things off with the classic California vs. New York debate. From there, it’s straight into AI and VC chaos: absurd mega-seed rounds that break portfolio math, why even a great early bet like Anthropic wouldn’t return a seed fund, and a revisit of Sam’s view that there are only two ways to win right now—(1) have a real secret and stay capital-efficient, or (2) own the narrative. Dave flags a new “walkout culture” in AI, where executives jump ship the moment incentives shift. The crew then debates whether AI is actually shaping ideas or just polishing them (a fancy spellcheck?), why the question matters more than the answer, and how personal, computer-driving “Clawdbots” feel inevitable and maybe exactly where Apple should be headed, despite the security concerns. The episode rounds out with The Information's breaking news on Apple's AI pins, shrinking subscription moats and business-model shifts, plus detours into the New York Times’ sauna-bros piece, Sam’s WTF Conference protest merch, Super Bowl plans, and more.Chapters:01:00 – Hello Davos listeners!03:42 – SF vs. New York: where VC actually wins05:41 – The seed valuation "fairway" vs bloated-roads10:07 – Anthropic & OpenAI: good wins, but bad seed returns11:58 – AI founder drama: mercenary teams & narrative fundraising13:53 – Did Claude write its own constitution?15:18 – AI as spellcheck on steroids21:01 – Ralph: autonomous AI agent loop24:03 – What ClawdBot really is; symphony orchestrator26:51 – The Information breaks: Apple’s AI wearable pin; are phones getting tired?29:02 – The rise of “orchestra compute” and hacked APIs31:44 – Subscription models are at risk: Whoop, Eight Sleep, Peloton, Apple41:18 – The New York Times' feature on Sauna Bros44:53 – Sam's WTF Conference merch & Montana shooting plans46:34 – Squad's Super Bowl plansWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/AgwMFLjxQa0Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit