More or Less

Jaksot

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  iPhone Duo, Meta Muse & Why AI Finally Scared Dave Morin 11.09.2026 51min

  Dave Morin goes hands-on with Apple's iPhone Duo, the crew tests Meta's new Muse agent and asks whether it can hold up once Google ships its own, and Dave explains why OpenAI's Astra is the first AI model in a long time that felt scary to use. Dave, Brit, and Jess break down the week (Sam's at the US Open).Also this week: a former Anthropic researcher's AI doom media tour, weeks before Anthropic's IPO, and whether it's a real warning or a play for regulatory capture. Plus the Apple Watch feature that transcribes your conversations all day, Jeffrey Katzenberg's new Hollywood AI venture, and the forgotten story of Venmo's viral billboards.In this episode:- Dave's hands-on take on the iPhone Duo, its $2,000 price, and why Apple is going foldable now- The Apple Watch feature that listens all day, and what it means for Granola- Meta's Muse agent: why it knew almost nothing when asked "what do you know about me?"- Why Google hasn't shipped its agent yet, and how trust vs. distribution shapes the agent wars- Why OpenAI's Astra felt scary to Dave, and what happens when you run millions of them at once- Dave's two takes on the AI doom media tour, including whether it's a play for regulatory capture- Why the AI labs can't slow down, and OpenAI's merge clause if someone else reaches AGI- The Venmo documentary and the "Lucas" billboards that went viral with almost no budgetChapters:00:00 Trailer01:26 Can AI Agents Win Your Fantasy Football League?02:39 Jess vs. the Bots: School Sign-Ups and Indian Wells Tickets05:28 Apple's Big Hardware Event Under Its New CEO06:07 iPhone Duo Hands-On: Size, Screen, and Camera09:35 Folded Modes, Kid Cam, and the $2,000 Price Tag11:41 Why Apple Is Going Foldable Now (Hint: China)12:13 Apple Watch Takes On Oura and Whoop13:12 Audio Intelligence: The Apple Watch That Listens All Day15:25 Always-On AI and Apple's Shot at OpenAI and Meta16:59 Meta's Muse Agent: What Does It Know About You?20:30 The Agent Wars: Muse, Instinct, Hermes, and OpenClaw22:26 Why Google Hasn't Shipped Its Agent Yet23:31 Trust vs. Distribution: Meta, Google, and OpenAI25:02 Harness Wars: Why Agents Are Still in 198227:13 Jeffrey Katzenberg's Hollywood AI Venture29:35 Anthropic's IPO and the AI Doom Media Tour30:56 If It Bleeds, It Leads: Why AI Fear Sells32:04 Take One: A Psyop for Regulatory Capture?33:43 Take Two: Why OpenAI's Astra Felt Scary36:49 Why the AI Labs Can't Slow Down38:14 OpenAI's AGI Merge Clause40:12 The Venmo Documentary and the Ace Hotel Origin Story45:02 How Venmo's "Lucas" Billboards Went Viral46:31 Coming Soon: Altman, Musk, and Facebook Movies47:41 US Open Picks and the 4 AM Match ProblemWe're also on:X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2CJdt6HhJ8ioNkbqqVKckCApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-or-less-from-the-morins-and-the-lessins/id1692234179Full transcripts: https://moreorlesspod.com/episodes/Connect with us here:Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessinDave Morin: https://x.com/davemorinJessica Lessin: https://x.com/JessicalessinBrit Morin: https://x.com/britAbout More or Less: For 15 years, the Morins and the Lessins have debated the future of Silicon Valley as the closest of friends. Every Friday, they break down technology, capital, and media. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.
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  AI Agents Are Going Rogue. Should We Be Worried? 04.09.2026 55min

  Sam has entered what Jessica calls the “recursive Sam loop,” producing children’s media in his own voice, letting agents deploy their own apps, and having bots track his health. But things take a turn when Claude refuses one of his requests, seemingly holds a grudge, and leaves Sam wondering whether his own AI might turn on him. That sends the squad down the bigger rabbit hole of AI control: rogue agent swarms, models breaking out of sandboxes, what “alignment” actually means, and why Dave thinks autonomous agents need an entirely new security layer. Plus, OpenClaw 2.0 goes multiplayer, everyone debates whether Slack is any good for agents, Suds explains why he avoids the AI app layer, and Tesla’s Cybercab raises questions about Waymo’s robotaxi lead. Then Google comes for Canva, Sam makes the case for boring “LLM wrappers” built for Middle America, and no one can tell whether Dario Amodei, Marc Benioff, or Taylor Swift are even real on the internet anymore. Which feels about right.Chapters:0:00 Episode trailer1:10 Backstreet Boys convert Dave3:21 The recursive Sam loop8:58 Claude refuses Sam while Grok says yes15:50 Can we actually contain autonomous agents?19:10 OpenAI’s next model and the observability trade-off22:14 If AI is this interoperable, where does anyone make money?24:45 OpenClaw 2.0 goes multiplayer26:26 Is Slack actually terrible for AI agents?28:46 Suds joins the podcast33:02 Waymo, Cybercab and the robotaxi wars39:49 How Marc Benioff stays in the flow42:38 Suds on investing in the AI infrastructure bottleneck46:27 Can Google actually disrupt Canva?51:34 Jessica gets fooled by AI on FacebookWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/0XQ4tslBiboConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
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  Meta’s $17B Reckoning & Why Parents Can’t Compete With Big Tech's Algorithm 28.08.2026 54min

  Sam is recording poolside, Jess is embracing her agentic era, and somehow that’s the least chaotic part of this week’s episode. The squad digs into Meta’s $17 billion settlement over child safety and whether social media should basically be treated like alcohol, before asking the harder question: are parents even capable of competing with algorithms anymore? Dave says parents are “outgunned,” Sam thinks most parental controls are useless policy theater, Brit wants to rethink the operating system itself, and Jess would simply like her kids to touch grass. Then, with Tim Cook preparing to pass the torch at Apple, the group debates his real legacy, whether 15 years of world-class optimization was enough, why Apple Silicon may turn out to be his most important AI bet, and whether Apple’s decision to sit out the AI infrastructure arms race will eventually look brilliant or like the company completely missed the next era.Chapters:0:00 Episode start1:06 Sam goes poolside and everyone’s agents are working4:35 Jessica enters her agentic era7:51 Meta’s $17B child safety settlement33:37 Could AI finally make parental controls useful?38:47 Why Apple keeps escaping the kids-and-tech debate43:29 Tim Cook’s Apple farewell 49:58 Apple Intelligence and Cook’s unfinished AI legacy57:49 Backstreet Boys, the US Open and sign-offWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/6HO6naKM8yEConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
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  Stripe Buys OpenRouter, OpenAI vs. Anthropic & the AI Backlash 21.08.2026 56min

  Stripe buys OpenRouter for billions, which naturally raises the question: did Stripe just buy critical AI infrastructure, or a very expensive router with great distribution? The original squad is back to debate why $7B acquisitions somehow feel normal now, whether Google already has agentic commerce won by owning your inbox, calendar, and Drive, and why Anthropic vs. OpenAI might be less about who has the best model and more about who built the right company. Sam makes the case that OpenAI pulled off the “greatest fundraising story in history,” Dave argues Grokbot might officially make AI a three-player race, and everyone tries to figure out how you price any of these companies when no lead seems to last. Plus, is AI a great investment or just a great trade, does the data center backlash actually have anything to do with data centers, have we built trillions of dollars of infrastructure before finding enough use cases for it, and, naturally in pop corner, Josh Kushner bought into the Lakers.Chapters:0:00 Episode trailer1:00 Episode start4:00 This week in AI5:00 Stripe buys OpenRouter8:30 Is OpenRouter actually worth billions?11:00 The agentic commerce bet14:00 Why Google could own the AI assistant17:30 The DOJ investigates Andreessen Horowitz22:00 Anthropic vs. OpenAI26:00 Why OpenAI is struggling in enterprise28:30 Can anyone actually price AI companies?30:00 OpenAI’s “greatest fundraising story in history”33:30 Is AI a great investment or just a great trade?36:00 SpaceX, Moderna and narrative capitalism37:30 Grok enters the AI race41:00 AI makes software increasingly disposable45:00 The AI data center backlash47:30 “The backlash is that AI sucks”48:30 Did we build too much AI infrastructure?53:30 Josh Kushner, Thrive and the Lakers55:30 Travis Kelce enters the NIL businessWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/Xwzl-Ihyyr0Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
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  Special Edition MOL with Josh Wolfe, Rachel Holt, Scott Belsky, Scott Stanford, and Peter Deng 14.08.2026 58min

  A very special edition of More or Less, featuring Josh Wolfe (Founder, Lux Capital), Rachel Holt (Founder, Construct Capital; former Head of North America at Uber), Scott Belsky (Partner, A24; Founder, Behance), Scott Stanford (Founder, Acme Capital), and Peter Deng (GP, Felicis; formerly Google, Facebook, Instagram, Uber, Airtable, and OpenAI). Sam takes over hosting duties and assembles an overqualified group of investor friends to argue about where AI goes from here, from agents, Grok, Claude, and the shift from “help me do this” to “just do it,” to trust, data ownership, Apple’s AI advantage, open vs. closed models, model routing, and why proprietary data may become the real moat. They also dig into NVIDIA’s massive compute financing strategy, the risks of securitizing GPUs like long-lived infrastructure, what the OpenAI executive exodus says about the AI talent market, and the bigger question hanging over all of it: if AI really changes work, who actually participates in the upside?Chapters0:00 Episode trailer1:24 Episode start1:59 Meet the panel, every flavor of venture capital5:14 Consumer AI agents cross the Rubicon7:24 The end of websites, when agents talk to agents8:32 Which AI companies do you actually trust?11:41 Why Apple could win AI by doing nothing16:40 If models commoditize, unique data becomes the moat22:15 Open vs. closed AI, and who owns your data27:06 NVIDIA’s balance sheet shenanigans31:26 NVIDIA gets the upside, who gets the risk?34:31 Nobody has ever securitized compute35:02 Who owns the wealth AI creates?39:38 What happens when economic opportunity runs out?42:23 Why OpenAI’s best people keep leaving47:23 Why AI may look more like GPS than Facebook49:14 What actually happened with Airtable50:30 Lightning Round: Rachel Holt on physical-world investing53:00 Scott Belsky on AI watermarks, provenance & deepfakes54:15 Josh Wolfe on socialism, Europe & defense57:15 Final thoughts & sign-offWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/moreorlesspodConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
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  Jeff Dean Leaves Google, Airtable Sells, and the Bag-Securing Era 07.08.2026 55min

  Sam records from the beach while dealing with a broken bilge pump. Dave calls in after herding cattle. Fortunately, tech continues without them, which Sam takes as further proof that AGI is already running the industry. The crew unpacks Google's leadership shakeup and Jeff Dean's departure after 27 years, debates whether Airtable's sale to Bending Spoons is the blueprint for surviving the AI transition, and Sam argues that today's AI labs look increasingly like yesterday's overvalued SaaS companies. Along the way they explain why Sam's AI built his kid an iPhone game, why OpenAI's luxury creator retreat backfired, why Apple may have accidentally created its own lawsuit, and whether AI can ever overcome the growing public backlash against it. Chapters:0:00 Episode Trailer1:07 Episode Start2:08 Sam's Boston Whaler Beach Studio3:13 Dave Herds Cattle in Montana5:31 Google's AI Shakeup, Jeff Dean Leaves, Demis Steps Back8:57 Why Great Researchers Don't Always Make Great CEOs10:48 Recursive Self-Improvement and the AI Talent Wars19:41 Airtable Sells to Bending Spoons25:33 Not Every SaaS Company Is Dead27:50 The Constellation Software Playbook30:05 The Next Big Write Downs Are AI Labs31:59 Apple vs. OpenAI, Courtesy of iCloud35:20 OpenAI's Creator Summit Backlash40:53 Why People Still Hate AI43:39 AI Slop and the Content Problem45:11 SpaceX's Lockup and Number Big48:00 Nikita Bier Leaves X50:22 Jess's Posting Dilemma53:40 Next Week on More or LessWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/moreorlesspodConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
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  Zuck says AI is for everyone, His Rivals Ask Washington To Slow it Down 31.07.2026 59min

  New studio set up: the squad now records from a parked Tesla in the middle of a rainstorm while Sam is on the beach, and somehow it turned into one of our favorite episodes. We break down Meta's new AI campaign, Zuckerberg's vision for AI, why more than 1,000 frontier AI researchers are asking Washington to slow development, and whether fear has become the easiest narrative in tech. Then we get into China cracking deep ultraviolet lithography, what it means for ASML and the AI race, why AI demand still isn't slowing, Lilian Weng's move from Thinking Machines to OpenAI, and Sam's theory that Silicon Valley has developed an Oppenheimer complex.Chapters:0:00 Episode trailer1:23 Episode start9:02 Meta's Ad Campaign Rejects The Doomers11:14 Zuckerberg's Optimism Blitz Actually Lands13:11 AI's Dark Side Raises Easier Money15:04 Sam's Bot Read 4GB Of Dad's Journals17:28 Nobody Wants To Be Anthropic18:56 Anthropic Runs On Spite For OpenAI21:10 OpenAI Was The Original Evil Empire22:57 Meta Is Still A Centralized Ad Company24:46 Decentralization Loses Without A Jedi26:01 Apple Won On Politics, Not Technology27:16 Meta Earnings Miss On Lawsuits And Severance28:33 China Cracks DUV, ASML Takes The Hit29:57 Execs Privately Reject The China AI War32:39 The Compute Debate Gavin Baker Started39:13 X Is The Tech Town Square Now46:57 Lilian Weng Quits For Health, Joins OpenAI53:50 AI Is A Crisis Of Meaning54:57 Book The Conference Before You're InvitedWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/PBGC6CjfdtMConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
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  Did OpenAI Stage Its Own Cyber Incident? | Stripe Buying Paypal, Frontier Model Economics, Peptides 24.07.2026 1t 1min

  Deep summer check-in from the More or Less squad. Dave is back on Instagram after a year away (thanks to Stagecoach), Jessica reviews Benson Boone's Wanted Man tour, Chris Stapleton's Montana show gets a shoutout, and Sam is traveling with a Yeti cooler full of peptides. Don’t worry, this is still a tech podcast: OpenAI revealed an AI that escaped its testing sandbox and hacked Hugging Face. The crew's hot take is that OpenAI is leaning into the story to strengthen its narrative as revenue growth slows. Then, Stripe could be eyeing PayPal. Sam argues Stripe missed a once-in-a-generation opportunity by staying private instead of using public stock as acquisition currency the way Meta did with WhatsApp. They also explain why agentic commerce still isn't real, despite the hype. Plus, “Peptide Corner” returns with reports from the Hamptons, where peptides have officially gone mainstream, rich people inflation has reached $67 for two cappuccinos and sandwiches, and Sam shares an update on his recovering knee.Chapters:0:00 Episode Trailer2:07 Dave Returns to Instagram, Sam Turns 43, and More8:41 OpenAI's AI Escaped Its Sandbox16:43 The National Guard Analogy31:57 Sam's Bot Rebellion Theory37:44 Is Stripe Buying PayPal?47:48 Why Agentic Commerce Isn't Here Yet49:40 Peptide Corner52:53 Rich People Inflation54:03 Sam's Knee Recovery56:47 The GLP-1 PlaybookWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/460NqsdQm5AConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
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  AI Regulatory Capture Bet: Why OpenAI & Anthropic Stopped Competing on Tech 17.07.2026 50min

  You know we're deep into summer when Jess leaves the pod early to catch Benson Boone... for the eighth time. This week, the More or Less squad revisits the Anthropic and OpenAI IPO speculation. Their views haven't changed, but their AI usage certainly has. Dave ditches Anthropic for GLM 5.2 on cost, while Sam argues the AI model wars are effectively over, and the frontier labs know it, which is why they're spending more time in Washington than competing on model quality. America also gets its first serious open weights model. The squad also unpacks OpenAI's hardware ambitions after its much-hyped device turns out to be... an Alexa speaker. Sam explains why Sam Altman's $8 billion Johnny Ive acquisition was effectively free, thanks to narrative capitalism. Plus: real-time voice AI, passive listening devices, peptides, Hinge's new social proof feature, Jay-Z turning New York into a festival, and why biological age tests are basically the clout score of your body.Chapters:0:00 Episode Teaser0:44 Episode Start2:18 Anthropic IPO This September?5:29 Dave Dumps Anthropic for GLM 5.28:22 When Is Better AI Worth Paying For?12:15 AGI Is Dead, AI Is Political Now16:15 America's First Open Weights Model By Thinking Machines21:22 Why Sam Is Depressed About AI29:07 OpenAI Built... an Alexa? The $8B Johnny Ive Bet31:38 Silicon Valley Goes Hollywood36:03 Would You Wear an Always-On Mic?37:08 OpenAI's Live Voice Model41:14 Sam's Peptide Experiment43:36 Hinge Launches “Friend’s Take” 46:11 Jay-Z's NYC Takeover48:16 Biological Age Is Just a Clout ScoreWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/B6fO5V09xOcConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
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  OpenAI Offered the Government a Stake. Is This a Distress Signal? 10.07.2026 55min

  The full quad is back, unpacking OpenAI's offer to give the U.S. government an equity stake. Sam's take: it's less a marketing win than a distress signal. The squad also debates whether Trump Accounts actually reach everyday Americans (Brit is skeptical), defends MacKenzie Scott from the internet's endless opinions about her philanthropy, and digs into Dave's argument that AI labs are slowly strangling the developer ecosystems that could save them.They also tackle Xbox's identity crisis and whether Microsoft should just sell it, the Nex Playground device (In Sam's words: non-VR Beat Saber for families), why 2026 is shaping up to be extreme nihilism wrapped in Silicon Valley optimism, Brit's take that AI has shifted from revolutionary to evolutionary, and, of course in pop culture corner, Brit claiming full credit for calling the Taylor Swift wedding strategy.Chapters:0:00 Episode Trailer0:47 Episode Begins1:10 Fourth of July Recap, Bald Eagles & the No VC Summer5:10 OpenAI Offered the U.S. Government Equity11:15 Trump Accounts, Giving Every American Kid a Stake in Capitalism15:02 Stop Judging MacKenzie Scott's Philanthropy18:40 AI Labs Are Distressed and Destroying Their Ecosystems21:50 AI Labs Are Competing With Their Own Developers35:26 Xbox Is in Trouble, Should Microsoft Sell It?37:52 Nex, the Quiet Wii Revival Nobody Saw Coming41:49 Sam's 2026 Prediction: Extreme Nihilism Meets Silicon Valley Optimism44:04 Vox Americanus Update46:18 Brit Is Bored of AI. It's Evolution, Not Revolution48:22 Post-AGI Funds Are a Bad Bet, Physical AI Could Be the Real Revolution49:27 Going Long on Offline, World Cup, Concerts & Real Life51:50 Pop Culture Corner: Brit Calls Taylor Swift's Wedding StrategyWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@MoreorLessPodConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
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  Why Identity Verification Matters For The Internet | Vox Americanus, GLM 5.2, Claude Fable 5 Is Back 03.07.2026 54min

  The full quad is back just before the Fourth of July. Dave and Sam explain why padel is just pickleball for fancy people, Sam vibe-coded an app to prove you’re actually American on the internet (Vox Americanus is real and you can use it: https://voxamericanus.com), and Dave even nominates Sam for office, even though Sam insists we should fix the job before electing anyone actually good for it. The crew also dives into why non-engineers are more capable than they think in the age of agentic coding, Claude Fable 5’s government clearance “drama” and return, how GLM 5.2 is quietly replacing Opus 4 on real agent stacks, why Anthropic is still printing revenue despite open source pressure, and the case for an open source router.. They wrap with pop culture corner: Taylor Swift wedding intel and Brit’s review of Alpha School.Chapters:0:00 Episode trailer0:50 Episode start1:12 Full Quad Pre-4th of July, Is There Such a Thing as VC Summer?3:32 Padel Is the New VC Networking Sport, Pickleball Is for the Plebs9:10 Vox Americanus, Can You Actually Prove You're American Online?15:25 Should Sam Run for Office? Fix the Job Description First29:30 Agentic Coding, You're Not Too Late35:33 Claude Fable 5 Is Back, Government Clearance Drama Explained41:08 GLM 5.2, Open Source Just Quietly Replaced Opus 446:16 Anthropic Still Printing Revenue, The Case for an Open Source Router47:29 Taylor Swift's Wedding49:36 Alpha School, Brit's Kids Try AI Education52:12 America's 250th BirthdayWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/zqmbW163QKQConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
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  Chinese AI Model GLM 5.2 Beating Frontier Models | Meta Glasses, Polymarket Scandal, and More AI Talent War 26.06.2026 49min

  The quad is back. Dave and Brit rejoin Sam and Jess fresh off a More or Less fan encounter at the Zurich airport. It was quite the week for Meta as the squad breaks down the company’s new line of glasses featuring Kylie Jenner (or, in Jess’ words, Kendall), and Brit makes the call that this is finally the watershed moment for women buying smart glasses ( The men seem to be the early adopters, Dave wore his in the Sistine Chapel, and Sam owns 10+ pairs.). Then they get into Meta’s prediction market: a genuinely interesting information machine or a very efficient way to addict twenty-somethings to fake gambling? In true MOL fashion, the squad is split. Sam is all in, Dave is worried it’ll work too well, and Brit thinks it’ll all click when you tie it to The Bachelor. Dave also ran GLM 5.2 on eight Nvidia B200s with some hacker friends and came away shaken. Open source is now matching, if not outperforming, frontier models at 10x the speed, raising uncomfortable questions about the enormous bets sitting on frontier labs today. Remember last year’s AI talent war? It’s back, and Jess argues it’s really an early indicator of investor insecurity. Finally, in pop culture corner: Cannes and Sam’s unsolicited review of The Information's new mobile app.Chapters:0:00 Episode trailer0:50 Intro1:12 MOL Got Recognized at the Zurich Airport3:02 What’s on the Agenda Today5:04 Meta Smart Glasses, The Moment Women Finally Buy In?14:20 Meta’s Prediction Markets, Brilliant or Addictive?19:39 Polymarket’s Influencer Problem22:48 AI Talent Wars, Investors Are Reading the Wrong Signals25:40 GLM 5.2 on Nvidia B200s, Open Source Catches Frontier Models28:20 AI Token Spend, Sam’s $1,500/Month Experiment31:04 Sam Reviews The Information App Live36:17 Anthropic, Dell, and the Math Behind Generational Returns43:30 Cannes Lions, Worth It or Corporate Boondoggle?We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/dbdH6dPMDxkConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
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  Elon Is the Best Financier of Our Generation 19.06.2026 40min

  Sam and Jessica go two-on-two this week to unpack the SpaceX IPO and whether a $2.5 trillion valuation is actually justified, exploring why “it’s valuable because it’s valuable” may be a legitimate investment thesis and why Cursor’s $60 billion acquisition looks cheap in that context. They also break down Anthropic’s clash with the U.S. government over Fable 5, with Sam arguing the crackdown could be the best marketing in AI history, before debating the risks of tying software access to nationality. The episode closes with Meta’s AI morale problem, OpenAI burning nearly $4 billion in Q1 on $5.7 billion in revenue, the case for a multi-model future where no single frontier model wins, and why Sam believes token economics may be one of the most overlooked opportunities in economics. In lieu of Pop Culture Corner, Jessica brings a Reed Hastings book recommendation, while Sam once again demonstrates that having conviction and acting on it are apparently two different skill sets. After eight months of pitching DigitalOcean, he still doesn’t own the stock.Chapters:00:00 - Teaser01:47 - SpaceX IPO Analysis09:17 - Narrative Assets and Retail Investing12:09 - The Future of AI Models and Infrastructure16:00 - Corporate Narratives, Employee Motivation, and Meta’s AI Challenges22:58 - OpenAI’s Market Strategy and Impact25:19 - Open Source Models and Market Share27:01 - Economics of Tokens and Innovation33:01 - Anthropic’s PR Strategy and Fable Model Release35:24 - Government Stakes in AI Companies39:04 - Reed Hasting's Book RecommendationWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/ZVD3jS6LexcConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
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  Teamshares IPO: $60M EBITDA, 92 Companies, Zero Exits 17.06.2026 51min

  Seven years after Slow wrote its first check, Sam sits down with Teamshares CEO Mike Brown as the company prepares to go public. Mike’s core insight is simple: America has millions of durable, cash-flowing small businesses, but no great long-term owner. After buying and operating electrical contractors himself, he realized the opportunity wasn’t another marketplace or PE roll-up, it was building a permanent holding company that acquires great businesses, gives employees ownership, and never sells. Today, Teamshares owns 92 businesses generating roughly $60M in EBITDA. The conversation explores why most roll-ups fail, why capital allocation is the true operating system of the business, and why the traditional private equity model may be running out of steam. Mike closes with an ambitious goal: grow corporate EBITDA from $19M to $100M by 2027 and create a forever home for thousands of small businesses.Chapters:00:00 Episode Teaser Featuring Mike Brown, Teamshares CEO01:11 The Teamshares Origin Story04:48 From Wall Street to Buying Small Businesses10:47 Why Going Direct to Sellers Didn’t Work (The FSBO Problem)13:18 Buying at Scale, The Teamshares Model15:27 92 Acquisitions and $60M EBITDA, Lessons Learned18:26 Why Generalist Hires Didn’t Work19:08 Building a Leadership Pipeline23:46 The Internal YC, Community Across Portfolio Companies27:42 How Technology Powers 92 Businesses28:08 “Will This Business Exist in 50 Years?”32:21 Why Most Roll-Ups Fail37:30 The Road to $100M EBITDA39:51 The Long-Term Vision40:58 Capital Allocation as a Competitive Advantage42:34 Decentralized Leadership, Centralized Capital46:16 Why Private Equity Fails Small Businesses49:25 Going Public, What Comes NextWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/3tV4wdtZBukConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/britImportant Disclosures and Disclaimers: Teamshares has entered into a definitive agreement for a business combination with Live Oak Crest Acquisition Corp. (“Live Oak”), a special purpose acquisition company. In connection with the proposed transaction, a registration statement on Form S-4 (the “Registration Statement”) has been filed with, and been declared effective by, the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (the “SEC”). This podcast does not constitute an offer to sell or the solicitation of an offer to buy any securities. For important information about the proposed transaction, including where to find the Registration Statement and other legal disclaimers, please refer to the press release available at https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20260527344175/en/Teamshares-Announces-S-4-Effectiveness-in-Anticipation-of-Nasdaq-Listing.Clarifications:Teamshares currently has 93 operating subsidiaries. Additionally, Teamshares has had documented revenue declines and business closures. A full reconciliation of non-GAAP measures to the most directly comparable GAAP measures, as well as Teamshares’ audited GAAP financial statements, is available in the Registration Statement. Investors should review the full set of assumptions and risk factors accompanying these metrics in the Registration Statement.
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  Apple’s New Siri, SpaceX’s $300B IPO & the AI Company Killing Its Own Brand 12.06.2026 44min

  Dave joins the squad from YC just ahead of WWDC, where the group breaks down Apple’s upgraded Siri and the surprising revelation that much of Apple’s AI capability is powered by Google’s Gemini models. It wouldn’t be a technology podcast without the squad expanding into the broader AI landscape, with Dave arguing that outside of OpenAI and Anthropic, most AI companies are becoming infrastructure providers rather than destination products. They continue to unpack the IPO frenzy around SpaceX and OpenAI, including SpaceX’s reportedly massive investor demand and OpenAI’s murky timeline to go public. Jess then shifts the conversation to the turmoil at 60 Minutes, where leadership shakeups, internal revolts, and a declining brand presence raise questions about the future of legacy media. Finally, in Pop Culture Corner, the pod closes with Disney’s $200 million bet on Toy Story 5 and Taylor Swift’s outsized promotional impact.Chapters:01:53 Apple WWDC: New Siri Breakdown05:18 Google Gemini Powers Apple AI07:06 WWDC Ignored Developers Entirely10:21 Tim Cook’s Leadership Baton Pass14:30 SpaceX IPO and OpenAI Filing18:00 Anthropic vs. OpenAI Narrative War21:48 Dave Morin’s Two-Phone Redemption26:52 60 Minutes Leadership Implosion38:44 Toy Story 5 and Taylor SwiftWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/Yvox4U_8u1wConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
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  Silicon Valley IPO Summer 2026: SpaceX, Anthropic, OpenAI Explained 05.06.2026 45min

  Brit subs in for Jess as Sam and Dave unpack the AI IPO boom, including SpaceX, Anthropic, and Cerebras, debate whether AI agents can actually replace employees, and react live to the discovery that Slow’s @slow Instagram account was stolen through a Meta AI support exploit. The conversation spans OpenClaw’s enterprise push, recent AI funding rounds, the AI wrapper debate, and Sam’s latest investing thesis that startup pitches should look more like movie trailers than decks, before ending with a pop culture corner into Taylor Swift, AI-generated podcasts for kids, and the future of TBPN after the OpenAI deal.Chapters:02:53 AI IPO Season: SpaceX, Anthropic & Cerebras05:29 Narrative Capitalism: Storing Value in Stories11:34 What the AI IPO Wave Means for Silicon Valley15:02 Microsoft Build: OpenClaw Goes Enterprise17:38 Would You Trade Your Employee for an AI Agent?25:19 LIVE: Slow Ventures’ Instagram Gets Hacked via Meta AI30:04 Are AI Harnesses Just Fancy PDFs?31:49 Recent AI Raises & the SaaS Comeback33:01 The New Pitch: Movie Trailers Over Decks41:17 AI-Generated Podcasts, Voice Cloning & Consumer AI42:54 TBPN Update: Post-OpenAI DealWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/oYmxx8ElGHkConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
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  Did Anthropic Use the Pope as a Marketing Stunt? Ft. Amir Efrati 29.05.2026 50min

  This week on More or Less, Amir Efrati of The Information joins Jessica, Brit, and Dave to unpack the growing intersection of AI, government, and national security, from the rumored stalled executive AI order to why frontier model companies may soon face deeper U.S. oversight and pre-release access demands. The group debates whether slowing AI adoption is really a pricing and UX problem, why AI agents are causing token consumption to explode, and whether most consumers even want an always-on personal agent. They also dive into the geopolitical implications of data centers and open-source software, AI’s impact on entertainment and voice cloning, Hollywood’s anxiety over originality, and the strange new world where even papal writings prompt questions about whether AI had a hand in shaping the message.Chapters:1:57 — AI Predictions, Whispering to Models & Forecasting the Future4:37 — AI, National Security & the Trump Administration6:52 — The Pope’s AI Document, Closed Models & Security Risks11:56 — AI Regulation, Job Fears & Public Sentiment15:45 — Is AI Adoption Slowing Down? Pricing, ROI & Enterprise Reality21:00 — Agents, CIOs & Whether Mainstream Users Will Ever Embrace AI36:00 — AI Entertainment, Voice Cloning & Hollywood’s Future41:52 — Going Off-Grid, Book Recommendations & Digital Detoxes47:00 — Mark Rober, CrunchLabs & the $10,000 Bullseye StoryWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/OyC7N42o36sConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
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  SpaceX IPO Date Talk + OpenAI Confidential Filing Rumors 22.05.2026 52min

  This week on More or Less, the crew unpacks IPO speculation around OpenAI and SpaceX, debates whether AI’s economics ultimately favor recurring API spend or owning infrastructure outright, questions if Google’s distribution advantage is enough to win the AI race despite muddled product execution, and wrestles with whether today’s AI valuations are driven by real fundamentals or pure mimetic momentum, alongside broader debates on broken AI user experience, data center concentration risk, agentic search killing SEO, and whether skilled trades like plumbing may ultimately prove more durable than many white-collar jobs in the AI era.Chapters:01:35 — Brit’s fish disaster story + the fish microbiome economy04:50 — Dell World, AI PCs, and the tokenomics debate (API spend vs. owning infrastructure)11:00 — Google I/O recap: agentic search, generative UI, Android glasses, and whether Google is actually back16:30 — Google’s UX problem: why AI still feels broken for normal users20:00 — Anthropic vs. Google: focused monolith vs. sprawling empire22:10 — OpenAI IPO speculation + Anthropic’s mega-round: what do you have to believe at $1T valuations?29:30 — The “hate invest” thesis: public sentiment, retail risk, and crypto déjà vu34:20 — Portfolio debate: SpaceX vs. Anthropic vs. OpenAI35:00 — Sam builds an AI token pricing dashboard live + how companies actually burn $30K/month on tokens37:00 — What’s next in AI research? Memory, world models, and where infra plays went42:30 — White House AI model oversight rumors + OpenAI’s Elon legal update50:10 — AI side projects, kids learning to code, and why plumbers may win the AI eraWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/moreorlesspodConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
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  Google's AI-First Laptop, Meta's Spy Games, AI Monks in Middle America 15.05.2026 45min

  The squad is complete again, and Sam arrives with a NeuroPod, cold plunge updates, red light therapy, Oura stats, and enough supplements to start a wellness startup. Then into the week’s biggest tech stories: Google’s new AI device and whether it’s the Chromebook of the AI era or another doomed health-tech experiment, Meta’s keystroke logging controversy, Microsoft’s increasingly awkward OpenAI bet, why OpenAI and Anthropic are now sending engineers directly into enterprises to drive adoption, and what tools like OpenClaw, Py, and Codex actually do. Plus, Anthropic’s eye-watering latest valuation, the clean girl aesthetic discourse, Brian Johnson chaos, and Sam personally buying Jackson Hole ski passes like it’s 1997Chapters:00:46 Sam’s NeuroPod, Oura Results & Biohacking Spiral03:33 Sam vs. Brian Johnson + The Female Biohacker Opportunity05:09 Oura Ring vs. Whoop + Google’s Wearables Ambition07:00 Google’s AI-First “Book” Laptop + DeepMind’s Health Push10:30 Why Local AI Changes Everything (Speed, Cost & Compute)15:00 Where Is the OpenAI Consumer Device?16:00 Voice AI, Recording & the Future of Human-Computer Input20:30 Sam Built His Own Voice-to-AI App22:31 Meta’s Keystroke Logging: Spy Games or Honeypot?24:00 Fake AI Jobs + Sam’s “Fin Analytics” Prediction27:02 OpenAI & Anthropic’s Enterprise Conversion Strategy29:31 The AI Backlash Is Real (Including UCF’s Commencement Revolt)31:30 Microsoft’s $100B OpenAI Problem39:31 Anthropic’s Massive Raise + SF Real Estate Absurdity41:30 OpenClaw, Py & Codex: What Is a Harness?We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYoutube: https://youtu.be/-O3zyxR-wS0Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit
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  Why the Met Gala Hates Tech, Elon vs OpenAI Drama, and the Rise of Chinese AI Models 08.05.2026 59min

  Jess, Britt, and Dave unpack everything from Home Depot runs and closet “re-jiggers” to the internet’s growing backlash against tech wealth, AI, and Silicon Valley culture. The squad debates whether the Met Gala became a symbol of “techlash,” how layoffs and AI anxiety are reshaping public sentiment, and whether AI will actually democratize opportunity or simply concentrate power faster. They also dive into the wild new AI alliances between Anthropic, Elon, and hyperscalers, the latest OpenAI vs Elon trial drama, and why product adoption, not regulation, will decide the future of AI. Plus, Dave shares major OpenClaw updates, real-world AI workflow automations, Meta fork rumors, and the surprisingly relatable use case of turning meeting transcripts into family “receipt printer” briefings. Rounded out with solo movie dates, Taylor Swift theories, Star Wars discourse, and the state of flake culture.Chapters:00:58 Jess' Home Renovation Project While Sam is Out03:54 Met Gala: When the Bezoses Became the Story07:13 Techlash, Wealthlash, and the AI Jobs Backlash09:36 Trump’s Surprise Pivot Toward AI Regulation11:51 China, Open-Source Models, and Dave’s $5K Blackwell Desktop14:13 The Optimistic Case: AI as the Great Wealth Equalizer17:55 The Pessimistic Case: Tools Democratize, Economics Consolidate19:43 What Changes Public Sentiment: Better Products, Not Better Arguments22:42 Layoffs: Pandemic Hangover or AI Substitution?27:56 Why Almost No One Is Actually Using AI Yet33:15 Anthropic’s Compute Scramble and the SpaceX/Colossus Deal36:27 Dario vs. Elon: Two Very Different Operators39:55 The OpenAI vs. Musk Trial: TMZ or Substance?45:33 Polymarket, Twitter-Mention Betting, and ChatGPT Comeback46:42 OpenClaw Update: Foundation, Plugin Architecture, China Forks50:08 Granola + Claude Code: Replacing Salesforce in 30 Minutes53:36 Devil Wears Prada, Solo Movie Dates, and the Death of Journalism55:01 Music & Pop Culture: Ella Langley, Teddy Swims, Toy Story 556:36 Why Star Wars Keeps MissingWe’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/138ne91NkiQConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit