Out and Back

#41 Brady Holmer - High Carb Evidence, Ketone, and How to Actually Sleep Before a Race 14.06.2026 1t 20min

Brady Holmer is back for his third appearance, which officially makes him the most tenured guest in Out and Back history. He's a week out from Grandma's Marathon, coming off a stress injury and a training block built around high bike volume, durability workouts, and progression long runs in the Texas heat. The conversation covers a lot of ground: what the research actually says about high carb fueling (and where the evidence gets murky), why the crossover point matters more than oxidation rates, gel selection and why he's cycling between multiple products, a new ketone IQ study showing a 15% boost in EPO production post-exercise, and what Nomeo is actually doing in the body. Then Jacob admits he spent race night at the New York Half taking Advil PM every hour hoping to knock out, and Brady walks through what the research says about sleep before races -- including why trying harder to fall asleep is the worst thing you can do.ZBiotics: This episode is brought to you by ZBiotics, a pre-alcohol probiotic drink designed to break down the toxic byproduct that builds up in your gut when you drink -- so you can have a good night and still show up for your long run the next morning. Go to zbiotics.com/outandback, use code OUT AND BACK for 15% off your first order. Backed by a 100% money back guarantee.Meteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off MeteoPace Pro at ⁠⁠https://www.meteopace.com/redeem⁠⁠ Code: OUTANDBACK ⁠⁠https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACK⁠⁠⁠⁠Join our Strava group⁠⁠⁠⁠Buy merch: https://outandback.shop/Follow us:⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Rory’s YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Out And Back YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Rory’s Strava⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s Strava⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Rory’s Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s Coaching Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Rory's Coaching Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠SandyBoy ProductionsBrady's training block and Grandma's Marathon prepDurability workouts: combining bike and runHeat training in TexasWhat the research actually says about high carb fuelingGel strategy, product lineup, and decoupling fuel from hydrationNew ketone IQ study: EPO production and recoveryNomeo: how it actually works (and what we don't know)Sleep before a race: why trying harder makes it worseRecovery modalities: red light, ice bath, and compression boots rankedRapid fire: cross training, electrolytes, and pre-race caffeine

#40 David Roche - The Rules of High Carb Training, How to Train the Gut, Fatigue Resistance, & Training the Pros 07.06.2026 1t 16min

David Roche -- ultra marathoner, elite running coach, and what Rory's calling the godfather of the high carb revolution -- joins the Out and Back for episode 40. He started as a running back at Columbia, spent years coaching before ever being competitive himself, and broke the Leadville 100 course record in 2024 (and again in 2025!) largely by stress-testing the same principles he'd been building with his athletes. The conversation covers a lot of ground: how he thinks about carb intake across different race distances, why he separates hydration from fueling, the case for uphill treadmill threshold work, what unites his coaching across trail, road, and ultra, and why he keeps looking to cycling for answers the running world is slow to ask. David on InstagramDavid's WebsiteMeteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off MeteoPace Pro at ⁠⁠https://www.meteopace.com/redeem⁠⁠ Code: OUTANDBACK ⁠⁠https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACK⁠goodr: Upgrade your eyewear by heading to goodr.com/OUTANDBACK to claim $10 off your first order.Meteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off MeteoPace Pro at ⁠https://www.meteopace.com/redeem⁠ Code: OUTANDBACK ⁠https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACK⁠Kava Haven: All the Buzz, None of the Booze — get 15% off your first order at ⁠http://kavahaven.com/outandback⁠ Code: OUTANDBACK15 ⁠⁠Join our newsletter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Join our Strava group⁠⁠⁠Follow us:⁠⁠Jacob’s YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Rory’s YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠Out And Back YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Rory’s Strava⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s Strava⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Rory’s Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s Coaching Website⁠⁠⁠⁠Rory's Coaching Website⁠⁠⁠⁠SandyBoy Productions

#39 Between Reps - Ottawa Marathon Edition 31.05.2026 1t 12min

Olympian John Gay, host of the Shakeout Podcast, joins Jacob and Rory one week out from the Ottawa Marathon where John ran 2:14 in his debut and Rory ran 2:09 for third place to close out his spring season. They break down both races, talk conditions, pacing strategy gone wrong, a certain Prime Minister phone call, and a lot more. Also on the docket: the Bolder Boulder DQ situation, Parker Valby's return at Track Fest, Kipchoge's continental tour, the new World Athletics qualifying standards, and the US World Half Marathon team announcement.Stay connected with John:The Shakeout PodcastJohn on InstagramMeteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off MeteoPace Pro at ⁠https://www.meteopace.com/redeem⁠ Code: OUTANDBACK ⁠https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACK⁠Join our newsletter⁠⁠⁠Join our Strava group⁠⁠Follow us:⁠Jacob’s YouTube⁠⁠⁠Rory’s YouTube⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Out And Back YouTube⁠⁠⁠Rory’s Strava⁠⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s Strava⁠⁠⁠⁠Rory’s Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s Instagram⁠⁠⁠Jacob’s Coaching Website⁠⁠Rory's Coaching Website⁠⁠SandyBoy ProductionsTimestamps0:00 -- Intro2:00 -- Ottawa recap, John's debut8:00 -- Race conditions and why times were slower14:00 -- Rory's race and the Mark Carney moment21:00 -- The Prime Minister phone call, play by play27:00 -- Bolder Boulder: Emad Bashir Mohammed DQ'd33:00 -- Should Bolder Boulder open the pro field?38:00 -- Cape Town Marathon and Kipchoge's continental tour43:00 -- Should the World Marathon Majors expand?48:00 -- World Athletics qualifying standards54:00 -- Marathon pacing strategy (and a Chicago horror story)58:00 -- Parker Valby at Track Fest, Habtom Samuel's NCAA record1:09:00 -- Connor Mantz named to US World Half team1:12:00 -- US Women's World Half team situation explained1:14:00 -- Closing, hats shipped, coaching links

#38 Vinny Mauri - Untold Stories from a 2:05 Marathon Debut + Training with the Out & Back Boys in Flagstaff soon? 24.05.2026 1t 8min

Blue Collar Middle America Hero Vincent Mauri joins the Out & Back podcast from his woodworking shop after working a full days shift at the local running store. We know he's been on about every podcast out there at this point but we got him to tell some new stories and also discuss his future training and racing plans, hiring an agent, and trying to land a shoe dealgoodr: Upgrade your eyewear by heading to goodr.com/OUTANDBACK to claim $10 off your first order.Meteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off MeteoPace Pro at https://www.meteopace.com/redeem Code: OUTANDBACK https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACKKava Haven: All the Buzz, None of the Booze — get 15% off your first order at http://kavahaven.com/outandback Code: OUTANDBACK15 ZBiotics: Learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use OUTANDBACK at zbiotics.com/OUTANDBACKVinny's StravaJoin our newsletter⁠Join our Strava group⁠Follow us:Jacob’s YouTube⁠Rory’s YouTube⁠ Out And Back YouTube⁠Rory’s Strava⁠⁠Jacob’s Strava⁠⁠Rory’s Instagram⁠⁠Jacob’s Instagram⁠Jacob’s Coaching WebsiteRory's Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy Productions

#37 Molly Seidel - Marathons to Trails, Western States 100 miler, How to keep running fun 17.05.2026 1t 8min

Olympic marathon medalist turned trail runner, Molly Seidel, talks about her path from the roads to the trails. From the pavement to trail races to the high-altitude training that supports her quest for Western States, she shares behind-the-scenes insights you won’t hear anywhere else.Perfect for marathoners curious about trail running, road runners exploring ultra distances, or endurance athletes seeking fresh perspective—this episode opens a window into the future of multi-disciplinary excellence.MERCH: https://outandback.shop/SPONSORS:Meteo Pace App Code: OUTANDBACK for 20% offCure HydrationZBiotics Code: OUTANDBACK for 15% off

#36 - How to taper for a Marathon and How to Recover After | Shakeout Podcast with John Gay 10.05.2026 47min

How to taper for a marathon, How to recover after a marathon & much more, on The Shakeout Podcast with John Gay ahead of his marathon debut.Kava Haven: All the Buzz, None of the Booze — get 15% off your first order at http://kavahaven.com/outandbackCode: OUTANDBACK15Check out the Meteo Pace App to be prepared for your next raceJoin our newsletter⁠Join our Strava group⁠Follow us:Jacob’s YouTube⁠Rory’s YouTube⁠ Out And Back YouTube⁠Rory’s Strava⁠⁠Jacob’s Strava⁠⁠Rory’s Instagram⁠⁠Jacob’s Instagram⁠Jacob’s Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy Productions

#35 Between Reps - London Marathon, 2:05 in Ohio, Has the marathon changed forever? Listener Questions! 03.05.2026 1t 10min

We try to make sense of the London Marathon, compare it to the Boston Marathon, Talk about the crazy 2:05 in Toledo Ohio and then follow up with some listener questions. Enjoy!Join our newsletter⁠Join our Strava group⁠Follow us:Jacob’s YouTube⁠Rory’s YouTube⁠ Out And Back YouTube⁠Rory’s Strava⁠⁠Jacob’s Strava⁠⁠Rory’s Instagram⁠⁠Jacob’s Instagram⁠Jacob’s Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy ProductionsMeteo Pace AppCure Hydration

#34 Between Reps - Boston Marathon Reflection after running 2:06 and 2:09, What a weekend! 23.04.2026 54min

Join our newsletter⁠Join our Strava group⁠Follow us:Jacob’s YouTube⁠Rory’s YouTube⁠ Out And Back YouTube⁠Rory’s Strava⁠⁠Jacob’s Strava⁠⁠Rory’s Instagram⁠⁠Jacob’s Instagram⁠Jacob’s Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy ProductionsMeteo Pace App

#33 Ben Rosario - Running Industry Insider, Professional Coach and Founder of NAZ Elite, Race Director, Running Store Owner 19.04.2026 1t 3min

We sat down with Ben Rosario to chat about his life in the running world. From owning running stores, founding a professional running team NAZ elite, driving sponsorship into the team with Hoka, owning and running The Marathon Project, his best coaching memories and more. Ben shares his thoughts and opinions on how to make the sport continue to grow and tells us what his blowing his mind about the current current boom.⁠Meteo Pace App⁠⁠Cure Hydration⁠⁠ZBiotics⁠Join our newsletter⁠Join our Strava group⁠Follow us:Jacob’s YouTube⁠Rory’s YouTube⁠ Out And Back YouTube⁠Rory’s Strava⁠⁠Jacob’s Strava⁠⁠Rory’s Instagram⁠⁠Jacob’s Instagram⁠Jacob’s Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy ProductionsCheck out our former sponor ⁠The Marathon Project⁠ if you want to run fast in December of 2026. Use Code "outandback" for an additional $25 off your registration. Prices go up on May 1st!Chapters00:00 The Evolution of Running14:13 The Marathon Project25:56 Career Paths in Running34:24 The Evolution of Running Booms

#32 Between Reps - Boston Marathon Edition, Deep Dive into our Boston Builds, Will the World Champs Marathon be Successful? How Hard is it to Make Multiple US Olympic Marathon Teams? 12.04.2026 57min

See you all at our Boston Shakeout Run!Saturday April 18th12:30 PM @ Hatch Memorial ShellJoin our newsletter⁠Join our Strava group⁠Follow us:Jacob’s YouTube⁠Rory’s YouTube⁠ Out And Back YouTube⁠Rory’s Strava⁠⁠Jacob’s Strava⁠⁠Rory’s Instagram⁠⁠Jacob’s Instagram⁠Jacob’s Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy Productions

#31 - Listener Call In Show, We answer your marathon questions and discuss all the hot takes. 05.04.2026 1t 24min

This week we have a Listener Call In Show, which is a new take on our mailbag episodes. 6 guest appear to throw us their questions and takes for discussion. Please join our newsletter and check out our YouTube Channels as well. The podcast will also be on YouTube as well as our normal podcast services going forward! Let us know what you think in the comments.Join our newsletter⁠Join our Strava group⁠Follow us:⁠Jacob’s YouTube⁠⁠⁠Rory’s YouTube⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠Rory’s Strava⁠⁠Jacob’s Strava⁠⁠Rory’s Instagram⁠⁠Jacob’s Instagram⁠Jacob’s Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy ProductionsThanks to for sponsoring todays show - check out our link for 20% off your order.

#30 Ed Eyestone - From being an Olympian to Coaching Them, Elite Marathon Training Philosophy, What's Difference in Today's Era of Running and Training 29.03.2026 1t 19min

Be sure to check out our show notes and sign up for our newsletter if you want the details on our Out & Back Boston Marathon Shakeout Run - we'll have some merch there as well!Today we are joined by the legend Ed Eyestone. Coach Eyestone has seen ever era of running from amateurism to super shoes. We talk about his running career, his transition to coaching, how he coaches the marathon, today's NCAA ever changing landscape, what makes Utah produce such good runners, and we also answer some great listener questions about his training philosophy. Join our newsletter⁠Join our Strava group⁠Follow us:⁠Rory’s Strava⁠⁠Jacob’s Strava⁠⁠Rory’s Instagram⁠⁠Jacob’s Instagram⁠⁠Rory’s Youtube⁠ Jacob’s Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy ProductionsThank you to ⁠The Marathon Project⁠ for supporting this weeks episode. Use Code "outandback" for an additional $25 off your registration. Prices go up on April 1st!

#29 Phil Sesemann - London Marathon Training, Linking up with Alex Yee and Emile Cairess, Achieving the Olympic Dream + a NYC Half Marathon Debrief from Jacob and Rory 22.03.2026 1t 21min

In this two-part episode, Rory and Jacob recap the NYC United Airlines Half Marathon, breaking down their race performances, key takeaways, and how it impacts their build toward the Boston Marathon.Then, we’re joined by elite British marathoner and Olympian Dr. Phil Sesemann. Phil has already run 2:07 twice in 2025 and is aiming for a top 10 finish at the London Marathon for the 4th time in his career.In this conversation, we dive into elite marathon training, periodization, race strategy, and what it takes to perform at the highest level of the sport. Phil shares insights on marathon preparation, pacing tactics, and how he balances professional running with family life.We also go behind the scenes of training with some of the best athletes in the world, including Olympic gold medalist Alex Yee and 2:06 marathoner Emile Cairess, who finished 4th at the Olympic Marathon.If you’re interested in marathon training, Boston Marathon prep, elite running insights, or learning how the pros approach race day, this episode is packed with value.Join our newsletter⁠Join our Strava group⁠Follow us:⁠Rory’s Strava⁠⁠Jacob’s Strava⁠⁠Rory’s Instagram⁠⁠Jacob’s Instagram⁠⁠Rory’s Youtube⁠ Jacob’s Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy ProductionsThank you to ⁠The Marathon Project⁠ for supporting this weeks episode. Use Code "outandback" for an additional $25 off your registration. Prices go up on April 1st! Check out our podcast sponsor CURE here:⁠curehydration.com/OUTANDBACK⁠

#28 Conner Mantz - Lessons from Injury, Boston Build, Training Insights 15.03.2026 1t 4min

Conner’s StravaConner Mantz Shokz DocumentaryJoin our newsletter⁠Join our Strava group⁠Follow us:⁠Rory’s Strava⁠⁠Jacob’s Strava⁠⁠Rory’s Instagram⁠⁠Jacob’s Instagram⁠⁠Rory’s Youtube⁠ Jacob’s Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy ProductionsThank you to ⁠The Marathon Project⁠ for supporting this weeks episode. Use Code "outandback" for an additional $25 off your registration. Prices go up on April 1st! Today we are joined by American Record Holder Conner Mantz. We talk about the lessons he has learned from the biggest injury in his career, his Boston build up so far, and about his teammates and training environment with coaching legend Ed Eyestone in Provo, UT.

#27 Between Reps - Ethan Shuley's Training Deep Dive, Grant Fisher’s Half Debut, USATF Half Marathon Disaster, Boston Marathon Training Updates 08.03.2026 1t 18min

Join our newsletter - We'll send your the PDF.⁠Join our Strava group⁠Follow us:⁠Rory’s Strava⁠⁠Jacob’s Strava⁠⁠Rory’s Instagram⁠⁠Jacob’s Instagram⁠⁠Rory’s Youtube⁠ Jacob’s WebsiteSandyBoy ProductionsThe Marathon Project Discount Code: outandbackCure Hydration: curehydration.com/OUTANDBACK

#26 Dakotah Popehn - Boston Marathon, Minnesota Distance Elite, Overdistance Long Runs 01.03.2026 50min

Check out our links below!In this episode, pro marathoner Dakotah discusses her training strategies, altitude training in Utah, race tactics for Heart Break Hill, and insights into the Boston Marathon course. She shares practical tips for marathon preparation and the importance of mental resilience in marathon training. We also talk about her coach, Chris Lundstrom, his training philosophy, and what he has been able to do with the MN Distance Elite Team, even without a corporate sponsor. Dakotah's Strava⁠Join our Strava group⁠Follow us:⁠Rory’s Strava⁠⁠Jacob’s Strava⁠⁠Rory’s Instagram⁠⁠Jacob’s Instagram⁠⁠Rory’s Youtube⁠ Jacob’s WebsiteSandyBoy Productions

#25 Jess Tonn McClain - Boston Marathon, Marathon Fueling, Bicarb for Long Races, Keeping Training Fun, Lower Mileage Approach to the Marathon 22.02.2026 49min

Today we sit down with Jess Tonn McClain who was the top American at the 2025 Boston Marathon, 8th place at the 2025 World Championships Marathon, 4th place at the 2024 Olympic Trials Marathon. She will be on the start line with Jacob & Rory at the 2026 Boston Marathon as well.We chat about her Boston Marathon specific training, about stepping away from pro running, and then finding her groove in the marathon post covid. She shares how she enjoys life outside of training and keeps professional running fun.⁠Join our Strava group⁠Follow us:⁠Rory’s Strava⁠⁠Jacob’s Strava⁠⁠Rory’s Instagram⁠⁠Jacob’s Instagram⁠⁠Rory’s Youtube⁠ Jacob’s WebsiteSandyBoy Productions

#24 Between Reps - Pacing the AR attempt, Upcoming races, Marathon Myths, Does the treadmill count? 14.02.2026 1t 3min

If you enjoy this podcast - please give us a follow and leave a review - It helps the show a ton! Check out our links below.In this episode of the Out and Back Podcast, Jacob and Rory discuss their current training experiences, including Jacob's time in Barcelona where he is pacing for an American record attempt, while Rory races the Mesa Half Marathon. They also share insights from their recent podcast with Brady Homer, updates on upcoming races, and the importance of joining Sandy Boy Productions. The conversation touches on marathon myths, the effectiveness of treadmill workouts, and how to manage health and illness during training. They wrap up with a discussion on listener engagement and future guests.Need a coach? Check out our links below:⁠Join our Strava group⁠Follow us:⁠Rory’s Strava⁠⁠Jacob’s Strava⁠⁠Rory’s Instagram⁠⁠Jacob’s Instagram⁠⁠Rory’s Youtube⁠ Jacob’s WebsiteSandyBoy Productions

#23 Brady Holmer - What really matters when it comes to sleep, caffeine, ketones, lactate training 08.02.2026 1t 18min

Check out our links below!We welcomed back our first-ever returning guest, Brady Holmer, for a wide-ranging conversation on performance, recovery, and the details that actually move the needle.We cover everything from Diet Coke and caffeine’s role in performance to what truly matters for sleep and recovery—including optimal sleep routines, practical sleep hygiene tips, and simple adjustments athletes can make right away. Brady breaks down key recovery and readiness metrics like HRV, respiratory rate, and resting heart rate, and how to interpret them in real training contexts.We also dive into lactate clearance, training adaptations, and supplement strategies, including when (and when not) to use ketones, sodium bicarbonate, and Nomio. Throughout the episode, we focus on science-backed, practical approaches to optimizing endurance performance without overcomplicating the process.If you’re interested in training smarter, recovering better, and understanding the “why” behind the data, this one’s for you.Brady's X⁠Join our Strava group⁠Follow us:⁠Rory’s Strava⁠⁠Jacob’s Strava⁠⁠Rory’s Instagram⁠⁠Jacob’s Instagram⁠⁠Rory’s Youtube⁠ Jacob’s Website

#22 - Mailbag, Boston Marathon Fields, Training Updates 01.02.2026 48min

Please give the podcast a follow, a 5 star review, and share with a friend with you enjoyed today's episde. Today Rory and Jacob break down the Boston Marathon elite fields, give an update on their training, and answer some loyal listener questions.⁠Join our Strava group⁠Follow us:⁠Rory’s Strava⁠⁠Jacob’s Strava⁠⁠Rory’s Instagram⁠⁠Jacob’s Instagram⁠⁠Rory’s Youtube⁠ Jacob’s Website