Psychedelics Today

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  PT 661 - Kenneth Tupper, PhD: Harm Reduction, Drug Education, Canadian Ayahuasca, and Psychedelic Public Health 07.10.2026 1t 15min

  Kenneth Tupper has spent decades working at the intersection of drug policy, public health, harm reduction, education, and psychedelics. In this episode, Joe Moore talks with Tupper about his early work with DanceSafe and drug checking, British Columbia's overdose crisis and experiment with decriminalization, and what the psychedelic field can learn from decades of harm reduction work and research. They also dig into Tupper's academic work on psychedelics and education, the idea of entheogens as "plant teachers," ayahuasca policy in Canada, problems with conventional drug education, and the limits of treating psychedelics exclusively as medicines. The conversation eventually widens into a bigger question: What does it actually mean to educate people well about drugs, altered states, and consciousness? Enjoy the show. Disclaimer: Intro and promotional audio in this episode were generated using synthetic voice technology. The interview itself is unaltered. Show Notes (Machine Generated) Kenneth Tupper's career has followed two parallel tracks: psychedelic scholarship and public health. Long before the current psychedelic resurgence, he was studying the idea of entheogens as tools for learning and examining how Indigenous traditions understand plants such as ayahuasca, peyote, and psilocybin as teachers. At the same time, work with DanceSafe and early pill testing drew him into harm reduction and eventually into more than two decades of public-health and drug-policy work in British Columbia. Tupper and Joe revisit the early history of drug checking and the logic behind harm reduction: if people are going to use drugs, providing accurate information and reducing preventable risks can save lives. That discussion leads into supervised consumption sites, pharmaceutical alternatives to illicit opioids, fentanyl, the toxic drug supply, naloxone, and the difficult reality of people surviving overdoses while sustaining hypoxic or anoxic brain injuries. They also examine British Columbia's experiment with drug decriminalization. Tupper describes the limits of decriminalizing possession without simultaneously addressing housing, healthcare, treatment options, the illicit supply, and other social conditions. The conversation contrasts British Columbia with Portugal and explores why drug policy interventions cannot easily be transplanted from one social and historical context into another. From there, the discussion turns directly toward psychedelics. Tupper argues that psychedelic public health should involve more than clinical treatment. Psychedelics may have roles in health promotion, community building, education, rites of passage, and helping people who are not necessarily diagnosed with a psychiatric disorder. At the same time, wider access creates a need for better harm-reduction information, screening, preparation, and attention to set, setting, and the larger social environment in which psychedelic experiences occur. Drug education becomes one of the central themes of the episode. Tupper compares the history of drug education with sex education and argues that drug education has remained unusually tied to prescribed behavioral outcomes—particularly abstinence. Rather than simply telling young people what not to do, he asks what genuine education about drugs might look like when curiosity, experimentation, risk, pleasure, and real-world access are acknowledged. That question connects back to Tupper's longstanding work on what he calls entheogenic education. Drawing on educational thinkers including John Dewey and Lev Vygotsky, he discusses psychedelics as potential "cognitive tools" and considers how experiential education might offer models beyond conventional schooling. Joe and Tupper also discuss how AI may force an even deeper reconsideration of education when reading, writing, calculation, and information retrieval can increasingly be outsourced to machines. The final part of the conversation focuses heavily on ayahuasca. Tupper discusses his doctoral research into the Canadian government's handling of a Santo Daime religious exemption, the difficulty of fitting ceremonial entheogen use into modern drug-control frameworks, and tensions between religious, biomedical, Indigenous, and public-health ways of understanding ayahuasca. Joe and Tupper also examine consent and safety around ayahuasca admixtures. Traditional brews can vary significantly in composition, raising difficult questions about informed consent, standardization, cultural autonomy, and how Western participants can make informed decisions when entering practices developed in very different cultural contexts. The episode closes with a broader discussion of knowledge itself. Tupper argues for taking scientific methods seriously without assuming that Western science represents the only legitimate way of knowing. As psychedelics, Indigenous knowledge, AI, ecological crisis, and modern medicine increasingly intersect, he sees questions of epistemology—how we know what we know—as becoming increasingly important. In This Episode Kenneth Tupper's path from psychedelic scholarship into harm reduction and public health Why he adopted the term entheogen in his early academic work Jonathan Ott and the politics of psychedelic language The early days of DanceSafe and pill testing Why drug checking became a public-health intervention Supervised consumption sites and their limitations Fentanyl and British Columbia's toxic drug crisis Naloxone, overdose survival, and hypoxic brain injury Why addiction cannot be reduced to a simple pharmacological model British Columbia's experiment with drug decriminalization Why the Portuguese model cannot simply be copied elsewhere Psychedelics as one tool within a larger public-health system Psychedelic access in Canada compared with Colorado and Oregon The risks of over-medicalizing psychedelics Psychedelics for health promotion rather than only diagnosed illness Why traditional drug education has struggled Drug education versus sex education Abstinence, harm reduction, and genuine education John Dewey, experiential learning, and progressive education Lev Vygotsky and the idea of cognitive tools What AI may do to conventional schooling Psychedelics as educational tools and rites of passage Dennis McKenna's influence on Tupper's ayahuasca research Santo Daime and religious exemptions for ayahuasca in Canada Why ayahuasca does not fit neatly into conventional drug policy Consent and transparency around ayahuasca admixtures Safety, lineage, power, and sexual misconduct in ceremonial settings Indigenous and biomedical models of healing Science, epistemology, and multiple ways of knowing Tupper's experience with ibogaine Why he coined the term "intonicated" Links Kenneth Tupper Kenneth Tupper's website Kenneth Tupper – Research & Publications Publications Intonicated Podcast — Tupper's podcast on altered states, healing, learning, and wellbeing. Apple Podcasts Listen to Intonicated on Apple Podcasts DanceSafe DanceSafe Transcript Joe Moore (00:11): Everybody, welcome back to Psychedelics Today. Joe Moore here, joined by Kenneth Tupper. How are you doing today? Kenneth Tupper (00:17): Great. Nice to be here. Thanks, Joe. Joe Moore (00:19): Absolutely. So you're joining us today from the glorious Vancouver Island, is that right? Kenneth Tupper (00:25): Correct. Victoria, British Columbia, traditional territories of the Songhees, Esquimalt, and Songhees First Nations. Joe Moore (00:33): Gorgeous. Thank you. And I'm... I'm going to try to introduce you a little bit here, but we'll have you kind of tee yourself up a bit. But we met at the Psychedelic Safety Institute Summit at UC Berkeley. Stacey Wallen helped put that together with a few others. It was a pretty big event. And maybe we can chat about this later, but it was the first ever event I went to that felt like AI was a backbone component to the event, which was fascinating. I don't, you know, at times uncomfortable, but also like, you know, I was respecting just how skillfully it was employed. But let's talk about you. You've got a long career in harm reduction. You've been able to volunteer not only with DanceSafe, but many other harm reduction groups. And then you spent some time in the British Columbian government doing harm reduction work. Is that right? Kenneth Tupper (01:28): Over twenty years, yep. Joe Moore (01:31): That's a bit. So thanks for all that hard work. How do you like to describe your career, your position in the ecosystem here? Kenneth Tupper (01:42): So predating my public health career was an academic interest in psychedelics, or the term that I used originally was entheogen. And not in the health or healing space, but education. I was interested in advancing some understanding of the metaphor of plant teachers in traditional indigenous uses of plants like ayahuasca, peyote, or psilocybin mushrooms. And then from that got into accidentally harm reduction. I didn't even know the term at the time, but, uh, working with dance safe, running a dance safe chapter, uh, and getting involved in pill testing. And then through that, through connections, got into public health, um, and continued to sort of advance the academic work that I was doing on the side, but it was sort of two parallel trajectories, but both in the area of sort of drug policy. So my PhD, uh, ended up being on ayahuasca and the sort of public policy implications of its emergence of the Amazon. But my work in government was in the harm reduction space, prevention writ large, but prevention of what? This is one of the questions I asked, you know, preventing harms or preventing use or preventing quote abuse, a term that I find problematic for a number of reasons. And yeah, and then also got into some clinical related work like opiate agonist treatment, methadone, which back in the day was kind of debated whether it's more of a treatment or a harm reduction intervention. Some people fell on one side or the other. In some ways it's both. Yeah, so that kind of defines, and then the last ten years working primarily on the toxic drug crisis or opioid overdose crisis here in British Columbia, which is one of the hardest hit provinces in Canada. And then still sort of keeping my toe in the world of psychedelics in and out, more out for the past number of years for a variety of more personal reasons, but coming back in and that Psychedelic Safety Institute Summit was part of that. And yeah, that's me in a nutshell. Joe Moore (03:50): So I have a confession i'll make on this show for the first time ever i am just now for the first time reading jonathan ott's pharmacotheon and i'm a bit embarrassed um that i'm just getting around to it now because his analysis uh commentary is just writing is so helpful and good and he he uh was one of the team that helped push this word and theogen And I'm just, right before this, I was working through his description of, you know, why entheogen as a term. I find it interesting. And I don't know, I just, anything that smells a little religious, I push back from, as if psyche doesn't have those religious connotations anyway. But, you know, in our strange times, I kind of use the psychedelic term as kind of like, in a way, to just be loud and proud about it, kind of leveraging gay rights movement kind of logic a bit. But I don't know, and sorry to go down something so banal as defining why you might wanna use a term like entheogen, but could you talk about that a little bit? Kenneth Tupper (05:07): Absolutely. And, you know, I could talk all afternoon about this. Language is sort of the world in which I swam academically. Critical discourse analysis was my sort of methodology for looking at public policy and the sort of way that language is invested with power overtly in public policy and law. of course there's micro powers and sort of everyday everyday language and discourse but for me personally the term entheogen was more sort of politically convenient in advancing an interest in this topic in through university structures in the late nineties early two thousands when the word psychedelic i mean being in the closet was the safe place to be at the time uh being more out was was sort of risky uh endeavor in terms of you know getting academic respectability um and i i found the term entheogen very helpful. So I'd come across it and reading Jonathan Ott's work and others at the time. I found it really helpful for framing traditional indigenous uses of plants versus the more sort of white powder application of a biomedical paradigm or psychotherapeutic paradigm. And I still actually find it a helpful heuristic of distinguishing entheogenic healing from psychedelic medicine with those sort of broad separations. Of course, there's lots of intersections and hybridities across them as well. And in some ways, you know, it's resonant of the failure of modern Western medicine to recognize the spiritual dimension in healing and health, something that I would argue in many most traditional indigenous cultures is seen to be, you know, synonymous, that those two concepts are completely intertwined, that the shaman functions both as a priest and And they've got the power of healing medicine man, as well as that spiritual intersection. So for me personally, that was why I ran with it. And there's a nice assonance with entheogenic education. Joe Moore (07:13): Well, at a later date, I'd have to dig in more on this. But I want to focus on this interesting harm reduction thread. it's cool it's really important to me as well um i jokingly almost renamed the show drug war today a few times like i just it's all i really wanted to talk about um for a lot of reasons uh so back in the day you called it pill checking like it wasn't drug testing testing pill testing that's interesting and it was just like ravers or was it all sorts of people that you were supporting Kenneth Tupper (07:51): The places we were doing it was at raves as they were called you know big electronic dance parties and my understanding is that's kind of the well there was deeper origin i think back in the early seventies there was some what we'd call drug checking happening in places like uh hate ashbury um free clinic and so there's some very sort of early moves towards it but it really kind of got lost in the shuffle for for many years and sort of the reagan era war on drugs but then With the rise of MDMA use or ecstasy use in the nineties and the illicit market that had no quality control or safety built into it, pill testing was obviously a way to discern whether or not you had actual MDMA in the so-called ecstasy pill that you bought. And for me, it was just a kind of no-brainer thing to do. Because in British Columbia, at least at that time, there was fake pills circulating, PMMA, paramethoxy methamphetamine, and others, sometimes just methamphetamine, things that were either cut in or completely sold as replacements for. But the idea that Offering people a way to learn what they think they've got was just an obvious good thing to do. But I found myself on the wrong side of law enforcement's perspective on that. They threatened to shut us down regularly and got into media battles about And I didn't even know what the term harm reduction was at the time. But it was through that work that I got introduced to people who were doing HIV prevention and trying to open Vancouver's first supervised injection site back in the early two thousands. And that was sort of my pathway into the world of public health. Joe Moore (09:32): So were you involved with any of the American DanceSafe folks at that point? Kenneth Tupper (09:37): Yeah, we were kind of an affiliate. So Emmanuel Sverios, I think was leading things and sort of we're in touch sort of regularly, but in order that the cards, the information cards that were given out and sort of loosely followed the protocols and procedures that were set out by an American, the OG DanceSafe. But we were somewhat autonomous as well and obviously worked in our local ecosystem. Joe Moore (10:01): That's super interesting. Never really thought about that would have operated in the early days and then um this supervised injection site thing i find fascinating i think dr carl hart did a really good job in his books kind of popularizing the concept and somewhat normalizing the concept where i recall some of the swiss cases where people were able to maintain a habit for effectively many decades without any real health consequences and or their family noticing And that's because they had clean supplies. They were able to do that. Kenneth Tupper (10:40): Well, actually, the critique I have of supervised injection sites is they actually don't touch the supply side of things. Joe Moore (10:47): I think this one does, but I think in Canadian markets. But you might know better. Kenneth Tupper (10:53): Yeah, so as it was set up, the people who used it had to procure illicitly off-site on the street market and then come in and use under medical supervision. So they could get sterile syringes, have an overdose responded to, have other wound care. I mean, there's a fully sort of wraparound healthcare and social service connection built into the site, which was part of the argument for putting it in place, was giving people a point of access instead of puddle water in the back alley. They're using sterile syringes under nurses' supervision with lots of connections and a lot of effectiveness in terms of what it was set out to do. But in terms of still relying on the illicit supply, it didn't do as much as it could have done if they had offered people a pure pharmaceutical product of a known quantity, which is what was missing from that. But you're right, I think some of the European models provided heroin prescription or diacetylmorphine Joe Moore (11:49): Right. And I, you just kind of rattled my world puddle water. I never really kind of went that far, but I totally understand. It's probably factual. Kenneth Tupper (12:00): No, that's exactly what was happening. Joe Moore (12:02): My God. So yeah, this is, this is the not quite far part, far enough part that I think we all kind of want to address in psychedelia because it's, you know, it's complicated if you're, being sold what you think is LSD and you're buying something like two five I n bomb that can just harm you, kill you. And, you know, the experience might be fine the first ten times. But there's, yeah, there's just really difficult math and data behind this. Kenneth Tupper (12:35): Well, let me sort of jump on that tangent for a second. So one of the realizations that I came to over the last decade with the toxic drug crisis, the opioid overdose crisis, was the sort of failure, the blind spot in the history of public health to recognize one of the most important interventions that was advanced over the last two hundred years, which is really all modern public health has been going since the mid-nineteenth century. And you know, we can count on one hand the number of big top five global interventions, immunization and vaccinations, clean drinking water, hand washing. But another key one that we've forgotten is the passage of pure food and rugs legislation. So prior to the eighteen eighties to nineteen twenties, that was a period of a couple of decades where that form of legislation got put in place around you know developed world prior to that there was no quality control or consumer safety standards you took your life in your hands when you bought a sandwich on the street or a drink at the bar and there was a public health sort of progressivist movement at that time to ensure that people who are selling things foods beverages and patent medicines that was before a pharmaceutical industry got sort of standardized were selling what they said they were selling. And prior to that, there was a lot of risk involved in just taking, buying anything and consuming it. So these Pure Food and Drugs Acts came in place. I think in the U.S. it was like—[captioning error in source]. That's a whole separate, let's put that in a pin for a second. But the sort of consumer safety logic got applied across the entire consumer marketplace throughout the twentieth century. So children's toys, automobiles, hang gliding equipment, snowboarding helmets, all of these things allow you to engage in sometimes very risky activities. But insofar as you're a consumer in the marketplace, you're protected by these quality control measures. There's one area that we've left completely out of that logic. And it was the psychoactive substances used for non-medical purposes. And I describe it as a fascist logic of we are going to allow people to die preventable deaths to serve as a lesson to others not to engage in morally objectionable behavior. And it's just it's unconscionable when you think about it from that perspective. So we learned the lesson with alcohol. There was an attempt, obviously, federally, most famously in the US. But here in Canada, we had prohibition of alcohol in every province. It was never done federally except Quebec. But it was quickly realized to be a colossal failure. So here in British Columbia, we had prohibition for four years from nineteen seventeen to nineteen twenty one. and then repealed it. And actually, a lot of British Columbians made a lot of money selling alcohol to the US before you guys repealed. But we didn't learn the lesson and apply it to opium. And there's a direct connection between opium to carfentanil and whatever's coming next, the novel opioids that are being cooked up in research chemist labs. So the cat and mouse game in the illicit market is always going to be, one by the mouse, right? They're innovative, and especially now with AI and combinatorial chemistry, the kinds of proliferation of new psychoactive substances on the horizon is frightening. So the idea that we're going to prohibit and criminalize our way out of these public health issues is, I think, deeply mistaken. Joe Moore (16:02): Yeah, I remember Leonard Picard telling me about predicting, in a way, in a paper, the fentanyl crisis. We chatted about it again a couple years ago in the show, and he talked about this kind of proliferation of technology and this wave of molecules that's coming. It's nothing to trifle with. In BC, when you were part of the government, were you all kind of looking forward to this at all, in a way predicting it or planning? Kenneth Tupper (16:41): No, certainly wasn't sort of on my radar. I think law enforcement folks were onto it sooner because they were picking up, you know, precursors and that sort of thing in large quantities. I remember fentanyl kind of coming on my radar in about twenty twelve when it started showing up in the postmortem toxicology reports by our coroner service. And again, it had been reported in small scale by police and seizures, but the fact that it was sort of emerging in sort of street level use and that people were dying from it was how it really first emerged in consciousness. And there was a kind of uptick in overdose deaths, again, at the time attributed to heroin, heroin overdose deaths. we realized over not too long was that heroin was being supplanted by fentanyl. And so when there was a public health emergency declared in twenty sixteen here in B.C. by our chief medical health officer, and that's when a lot of resources were mobilized to try to deal with it. But by that time, it was already kind of proliferating across North America. I think it was on the radar in the United States by that time. Part of it attributable to overprescribing of opioids, certainly there was a concern that there was a lot of people who'd gotten a taste of opioids through pain management offerings that were probably not now in retrospect considered to be best practice in how to help people who are navigating chronic low back pain or something like that. Because there's a phenomenon called hyperalgesia where people actually get exacerbated pain from regular use of opioids but the fact that fentanyl was now emerging into the illicit heroin supply was tragically only discerned by people's deaths and that's where i was able to kind of resurrect the idea of pill testing or it wasn't called again pill testing was the idea i first called it drug testing but Lots of folks pointed out that that also refers to hair samples being pulled to detect illicit drug use by parents and their teens or something. So we called it drug checking. That's the preferred term. Joe Moore (18:42): Cool. Well, that's really, really helpful and interesting. I wonder what organizations are going to start looking at that. It is a grave, I think... moral issue and national security issue honestly um leonard's point was what if some of these new drugs just transcend people's ability to fight addiction you know just kind of like doing the sci-fi thing with addiction um to to a degree and i like a kind of pleasure machine function of like so so incapacitating and hard-hitting that you just can't there's no effective treatments Kenneth Tupper (19:26): Right. Joe Moore (19:26): Like why we think that about methamphetamines. But what if we were able to do like twenty X Kenneth Tupper (19:33): I have no doubt it's coming and I share Leonard's concern that that's probably on the not too distant horizon. Although, you know, the idea of addiction itself is complicated in terms of, you know, what leads to chronic dependent patterns of use of any substance or not even just substances, behaviors as well. It's a sort of complex mix of bio, psycho, social, spiritual, environmental, milieu of things that really sort of defies some of the simplistic attempts to medicalize, which is why I would argue modern medicine hasn't been that effective at treating addiction. In fact, some of the best treatments are simple substitutions, right? So nicotine replacement therapy for tobacco or methadone for opioids, although I think we found methadone isn't quite as effective as it used to be now that fentanyl and other novel opioid analogs are sort of stronger than good old-fashioned heroin or diacetylmorphine Joe Moore (20:31): So for a psychedelic audience that's not really sure how this is related to psychedelics can you can you give us um a sort of rundown from your perspective on how it is Kenneth Tupper (20:43): So coming from a broad public, and that's sort of my angle in my interest in psychedelics is in that kind of public health intersection, or at least it's kind of these two parallel paths are emergent now on my horizon. One is the basic harm reduction of people who are using as, you know, information ecosystems continue to kind of democratize people learn about these things through non sort of non-standardized channels of mainstream media, there's a lot of excitement and rightly so. People start sharing stories of healing, of benefit. But it leads to a lot of use that might be risky or ways that people could harness these tools, and I'll use that metaphor sort of advisedly, with greater respect if they're aware that there's risks associated with it, not just in the supply side, but also in the sort of way that setting matrix, an important addition to that. I think Betty Eisner came up with that additional term. So again, the broader environment in which one's situated. So that's one side of it. And then the other is, I would argue, a health promotion side of looking at being... I don't think we need to necessarily reserve these substances just to people who have a diagnosed illness, that there's ways to be better than well or to get ahead of trajectories of things like metabolic disease or incipient mental health issues like depression, anxiety, eating disorders, where earlier upstream intervention is probably warranted. And again, there's lots of opportunity that these can be studied and hopefully deployed for not letting things get to the point of crisis in someone's life, but then they need to seek help for. Joe Moore (22:28): Right. Kenneth Tupper (22:34): That's the psychedelic safety summit was i think primarily focused on that harm reduction side of the first part um but there was some discussion also yeah the ways to look at how these and one of my interests has always been looking at traditional indigenous uses because we don't need to reinvent the wheel you know these tools again have been used for thousands of years there's ways to you know use them for community integration intergenerational education knowledge sharing, community bonding, social cohesion. It's such a thing that's so needed today, could be really, really helpful for dealing with some of the malaises of modernity that we're all experiencing. Joe Moore (23:18): Yeah. So let's see, because you've been inside public health, I'm curious about this kind of somewhat clinical rollout right now of psychedelics in places like colorado and oregon um i know there's some interesting proliferation of businesses in british columbia though i think they're moving to mexico in real time for probably assorted reasons but what um what kind of public health things um do are folks trying to be mindful of um when looking at this kind of a rollout. Kenneth Tupper (24:04): So the clinical rollout of psychedelics in Canada is actually, I would say, behind what's happening in places like Colorado, Oregon. I understand New Mexico is coming online. There's, I think, advancements that have happened in terms of broader public offerings that aren't quite in place here in Canada. We have, in terms of legal access, primarily ketamine because it's an off-label use of an already approved medication. There's clinical trials happening in a number of internationally, a number of the big players are funding clinical trials. So there's some of that access. There's quite a bit of underground use, but again, that's sort of outside the mainstream medical system. There's also online dispensaries or actually some even in-store dispensaries that are offering things like mushrooms and five MEO DMT vape pens and other things that are to varying degrees, offering harm reduction advice and information for their clients. So it's a real kind of plethora of ways to access. And again, a lot of interest, I think, both on the clinician side and on the potential patient side. But the legitimate avenues are still relatively few and far between, which is why there's such a thing as medical tourism or psychedelic tourism, people heading to South America, Central America for ceremonies of various sorts. Ibogaine clinics, of course, are a big thing. in Mexico, and including one I personally was able to visit last year that was co-founded by a couple of Canadians, Ambio Life Sciences. Shout out to Jonathan and Trevor, who've done some amazing work on building, I think, somewhat respectable and safe in terms of the medical oversight offering. But I know there's a number of other clinics that are trying to do that, and probably lots more that... aren't quite holding up to the sort of degrees of standard that you'd want to have in place. So for that public health question, I think that's, you know, it's incumbent on all of us to think about a sort of health system stewardship lens, or at least that's the phrase that I use set up by the World Health Organization. But what are all the sort of pieces that need to be covered off in terms of planning and delivering for this to reach a broad scale? There's a big lag time between when something becomes an evidence-based treatment, and this is true for all kinds of medical interventions, a big lag time between when it is recognized as best practice and probably the best treatment available and when it actually reaches mainstream penetration of the health system. It's decades. I think the average I've heard is seventeen years. So there's ways to expedite that and see how to advance rollout with safety and efficacy always a primary consideration, but also recognizing there's things like health equity issues, who's got access, who doesn't have access, and for what reasons. And of course, that's, again, true of the broader medical system. So I know you've talked a lot to folks about these kinds of issues on psychedelics today. Joe Moore (27:07): Yeah, it's... endlessly complicated sometimes it feels really simple but like the actual execution is really difficult so let's see are you anticipating any sort of pushback in Canada around psychedelics perhaps Kenneth Tupper (27:36): I think we're probably slow walking at this pace relative to the fast tracking that we're seeing in the US and might partly be in reaction to the fast tracking that's happening in the US. I think the associations of the administration in Washington pushing forward in a whole bunch of different directions might actually cause our... folks in Ottawa to double-cross every T, triple-dot every I, just to ensure that they're not caught up in the hype and excitement of what might be fast and furious. So it's hard to say. I'm not privy to any particular discussions or decisions that are happening at that level right now. It wouldn't surprise me if there's going to be a sort of, let's go slowly and cautiously. But it seems to all be moving forward. I think there's a sort of tipping point that was crossed probably a few years ago in terms of recognition that these, we threw the baby out with the bathwater back in the late sixties, early seventies. And just a reminder to Canadian listeners and anyone else is that psychedelics were pioneered in Canada. Psychedelic medicine, the offering of LSD as treatment for alcoholism was pioneered in Saskatchewan. In fact, the word psychedelic itself was coined in Saskatchewan by Humphrey Osmond, a British psychiatrist who was recruited there in the nineteen fifties. So we've got this kind of long patriotic history of doing this kind of work, but it got caught up in the, you know, nineteen sixties counterculture. uh non-medical use scared a lot of folks north and south of the border as well as the you know imposition of randomized control trials and there were some methodological challenges in the history of science that led to uh restrictions on psychedelic research or folks who are trying to push that forward really resisted the rct design because of the you know challenges with placebo that are still sort of a confounder today but we don't talk about as much um Joe Moore (29:36): Yeah, I find that funny that we're still dealing with the same issue. I wonder. I hope some people have some good ideas. Kenneth Tupper (29:45): I think there's some bright minds who are at work trying to navigate those complexities in terms of research design. And ultimately, if they can persuade the regulatory authorities that they've managed to show efficacy in a way that allows it to be brought forward, then we can see at least begin to scale and do some sort of phase four pharmacovigilance. pharmacovigilance research. Once something's approved, you can continue to do more research and see where things can be tweaked or refined. So I'm hopeful that that's moving forward. Also, trepidatious of the kind of large pharmaceutical industry tentacles that are obviously looking not necessarily to maximize health and wellness for the population, but to maximize benefits for shareholders. So there's also a difficult circle to square in that regard. But I'm confident there's a big need and a big playing field. Lots of folks can be involved and hopefully see all sort of ships moving forward. That's not too many metaphors mixed. Joe Moore (30:51): So British Columbia famously had really great decriminalization laws, which allowed for, I think, harm reduction work to be done at a level I hadn't really seen elsewhere in the world. And can you talk about that decriminalization and how perhaps it helped and if there has been a shift to that decriminalization legal status in British Columbia? Kenneth Tupper (31:18): Yeah, I can't get into the details as part of the decriminalization core planning table when it got implemented. So I won't go into the details other than to say as part of the toxic drug crisis response, there was a willingness to try new things. And it was and that was one that was certainly being called for its implementation, I think, was challenging in the milieu of COVID-Nineteen emerging. We had two public health crises simultaneously. We had the pre-existing opioid overdose epidemic and then COVID-Nineteen came on top. So there was a lot of challenges with respect to the most vulnerable and marginalized people who use drugs and social distancing and all those kinds of things. And also there was, I think, an under-recognized element of almost a double edged sword of harm reduction in terms of getting naloxone out there broadly, supervised consumption sites, et cetera, did a great job of keeping people alive, but not necessarily resuscitation in this sort of vital few minutes post overdose that would prevent an anoxic or hypoxic brain injury. So that's when somebody goes down from an opioid overdose, they've stopped breathing for seconds or minutes or longer than that, that is death, right? That's what the ultimate death is. People dying from anoxia. But if you get naloxone and are revived, you may be suffering long-term cognitive impairment from an anoxic or hypoxic brain injury. And that's irreversible damage. I mean, I'm not aware of any sort of interventions that can help when it's a significant or severe injury like that. And sometimes it's multiple survived overdoses that stack on top of each other. Of course, on top of potentially pre-existing mental health issues, maybe pre-existing congenital brain injuries like FASD, fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, or other traumatic brain injuries. People might have had concussions and often ongoing active addiction. So you've got this kind of clinical mix of presentation that when an anoxic brain injury gets added, it becomes really, really challenging. So coming back to your question about decriminalization, what we saw in the rollout of decriminalization simultaneously was a sort of increase in public disorder, public nuisance. And I know you guys see it in the streets of places like San Francisco, LA. The same kind of thing appeared here. And it led to a sort of backlash of a political shift. So decrim, it was a sort of federally exempted research project that basically didn't get continued. So it's kind of gone back to status quo with varying degrees of discretion by individual law enforcement officers as to whether they decide to intervene. And it was always just sort of simple possession charges that were decriminalized. So it didn't do anything to deal with the supply chain itself. It was personal possession. And it was only certain drugs and up to a certain amount. So cocaine, methamphetamine, opioids, up to I think two and a half grams. It was an inclusive experiment, I would say. It was difficult to know whether the right mix of other interventions that could have helped people navigate trajectories of health and wellness might have been simultaneously in place. A lot of people point to Portugal and the Portuguese model of decrim that I think rightly so say wasn't put in place fully here in British Columbia. The kinds of other elements of what was done in Portugal didn't get implemented in terms of a real strong housing first, a lot of medical and other health supports that were kind of absent in what we did. Joe Moore (35:07): Can you talk about why perhaps Portugal was successful? Kenneth Tupper (35:12): I mean, I'm not an expert on this. I'm sure you've got lots of other folks who could tell you much more. But my understanding is it was just a different time and place. Street opioid use was a relatively small. Heroin or diacetylmorphine was the opioid of choice, or maybe diverted methadone, but not a huge kind of issue that we saw here in terms of fentanyl use and the proliferation of fentanyl in the heroin supply. That really sort of was a different beast, what we were dealing with. And again, just some of the social services, health services that were available and put in place in the Portuguese sort of, I think there was a really whole of government approach that took it very seriously. And they had, was it called dissuasion panels, other kind of alternative justice approaches that we kind of tried to replicate. We have drug courts here in BC that are obviously copied from the US. I think many things and broadly the addiction or drug use field help some people some of the time. Some people benefit from AA, twelve step models and all power to them, that's great. I would never want to say don't try that if it's a path for somebody, but we know that it doesn't help a lot of people a lot of the time and we need lots of different modalities. I would say the same thing is true with methadone or opioid agonist treatments. Some people respond really well. They're life-saving and vital and that's great, but there's other people who don't respond. And so it's always looking for the non-responders or for people for whom that path isn't necessarily working, what can we offer them instead? This is where I see psychedelics as another tool in the toolbox that maybe is really going to be helpful. And I particularly think of Ibogaine as something that could potentially deal with both an opioid addiction and a brain injury simultaneously, given the research that we've seen on TBI or traumatic brain injury, as well as what we know about opioid addiction treatment with ibuprofen. It's a very promising medicine with some risks, obviously, that need to be managed and studied better. Joe Moore (37:24): So let's see. Have we missed anything on the kind of BC government side yet that might be important to cover? Kenneth Tupper (37:36): Well, another area that it's not so much BC government, it's actually another area of my academic research. When I started my PhD, it wasn't actually to do ayahuasca research originally. It was to do drug education research. I was sort of fascinated by the question of what do we teach kids in schools about drugs? uh a question that i don't think has really been adequately answered yet you know and when i started uh doing this this sort of subject in terms of my academic research it was knowing that the just say no approach their program were kind of discredited in terms of the outcomes that were claimed certainly weren't realized in academic research and studies. In fact, some critiques saying that it might actually do more harm than good. But what to do instead, is it just say yes, just say maybe, just say safely, just say with harm reduction, is not a clear-cut, you know, to me, it's not a clear-cut path forward. And, you know, one of the questions I still have is, and I've got... girls, step-daughters, they're thirteen and a half and it's becoming real in terms of what they're exposed to in the school environment. But I think there's a lot to learn from sex education and I wrote a paper looking at the history of sex education and drug education in parallel over the last hundred and fifty years since public schooling became an institution both in the US and Canada going back to the nineteenth century and how drug education, the blueprint for it really emerged in the eighteen eighties with Women's Christian Temperance Union delivering what they called scientific temperance instruction, and they very craftily used the word scientific to appeal to parents and administrators. But it really was the blueprint for what's still done today. All use is abuse. There's no such thing as responsible use. Use inevitably leads on the slippery slope to either prison or death, scare tactic type approaches. They were focused primarily on alcohol, but they also applied it to opium. And there really wasn't much innovation. There has been a bit, I think. But when you look at sex education, It actually started later. It was very difficult to get sex education in schools. It was only after World War I with soldiers returning from Europe and venereal disease and the sexually transmitted infections in the roaring twenties became a concern was when sex education really got sort of embraced. Although at the time it was really focused on anti-premarital sex, heterosexual sex and anti-masturbation. And that was a huge, huge sort of push for early sex education. And again, we forget how big of an issue masturbation was just a hundred years ago or a hundred and fifty years ago. Believed to be a major cause of both mental and physical illness. So that was a big impetus for moving it forward. But then, you know, post-birth control and the swinging sixties, there was a real shift, not everywhere, there's still conservative religious communities that push back on it, but a shift in sex education to a much more progressive approach. And then with HIV coming in the nineteen eighties, I think that's really locked in an understanding that there's ways to do sex education that are really vital for protecting people. But we haven't seen that shift with drug education. It's been much more challenging. But I describe them both as moral purity issues in the classroom. You know, there are two topics that just don't really fit into school curricula in the way that... And sorry, I'm just going to go on another tangent. If you look at the history of education and pedagogy as a sort of philosophy of education in the nineteenth century, it was a Victorian era sort of rote memorization. Again, the beginnings of public schooling, desks in rows regimented by bells. regurgitate facts that are learned out of textbooks. And there was a big push against that in the early twentieth century with people like John Dewey and other progressive education reformers who talked about, we need experiential education, we need to stimulate natural curiosity. Instead of reading about a tree and a leaf in a book, we need to get kids out in the field and touching real trees and leaves and then build on that to scaffold their education from there on. And that works great across the entire curriculum, arts, sciences, humanities. The two topics it doesn't work so well for where we don't really want to stimulate natural curiosity and get hands dirty and feet wet is sex and drugs. In fact, it's just the opposite. What we ascribe for success in those two topics is abstinence, prescribed behavioral outcomes that really isn't education anymore. It's frankly indoctrination. And so it's been a challenge. And parents expect schools to do something. you know, challenged teachers, often uncomfortable delivering those topics, so they'll outsource to a nurse or a police officer to come in and, you know, do the talk. But, you know, kids, and especially now, it was challenging, you know, fifty years ago, but, you know, in the post-Internet age, and now with AI, who knows where it's all going, but, you know, you can download hardcore porn or learn how to cook crystal meth with the click of a mouse. It's a challenge. Joe Moore (43:01): Right. And yeah, what is to be done in the face of that? I was on stage recently in Aspen at the Aspen Psychedelic Symposium with a professor from Stanford who focuses on drug education research. And I'll pull her name up in just a moment here. But it was really impressive that she had data. Rana Hashemi? That could be it. I think she's at Stanford. She's one of the leading young voices in drug education and harm reduction. That could be her. Pull up her photo here. I like how the CV comes up first. But I think this is probably her. No, she's a PhD candidate. No, this is like a full professor at Stanford, like a very impressive researcher. I'll have the name in a moment. It's on the end. aspen uh the aspen public radio website but it was it was just really cool to hear how developed the um data has become on drug education and from a reputable source who's kind of on this um uh educate first over abstinence like let's actually get you really knowledgeable so you can make decisions it's kind of like respecting miners as like a real thinking people, as opposed to trying to lead with lying. Kenneth Tupper (44:36): Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's being, you know, respecting autonomy, respecting, but again, you know, information is critical, but not necessarily sufficient in terms of what we know, again, about harms and addiction and other things is it's often to do with trauma, environment, ones raised in things that are extraneous, completely outside of school systems control, which is, again, one of the challenges for doing drug addiction. How do you do something universal for all kids when, you know, what works well in like the D.A.R.E. program, it works great for the kids who come to the front of the class and brought the apple for the teacher that day, you know, all squeaky clean, but the kids at the back of the class or didn't come to class that day, didn't have breakfast, you know, we need something different. Joe Moore (45:18): Yeah, so I'm going to share my screen here, but it's Bonnie Halpern Felsher. Oh, cool. Okay. And definitely somebody worth following, and you can actually catch her recording. We had a person who grew up in Aspen, is still quite young, on stage with us, Ronan. A person who I think lost their child, Trina, here. and I was able to moderate this one. And I find it interesting that I was included being childless, but I do drug education. So perhaps that was enough. But it was a really great. Kenneth Tupper (45:59): We all have an interest in the future generations, whether we have offspring directly or not. We're all going to be looking to young people to be leaders of tomorrow. So hopefully educating well is something we get passionate about. Joe Moore (46:16): Yeah, and it was great to be involved in that. I was heartened by the audience's response. Ronan, who was on stage, a younger guy with us, he said some really, really great stuff about how he navigated being in such a drug-rich environment like Aspen. And not just drug-rich, but everything's available. You could be doing plenty of LSD if that was your thing. But, you know, I think he had a good encounter early enough that kind of, I don't want to say scared straight because that's kind of a stupid term, but, you know, you can get rattled with psychedelics and you might want to change your behavior, right? Kenneth Tupper (47:03): Again, this is where I look to, you know, indigenous traditions as, you know, a form of intergenerational education and where elders model responsible youth lead ceremonial type practices that allow for rites of passage that frankly our societies are mostly lacking in terms of that kind of liminal experience in older adolescents, young adults. One of the jokes I make is that kids come into kindergarten full of wonder and awe and curiosity about the world. And if they have any of that left by twelfth grade, it's usually despite their schooling, not because of it. And that's where I think, again, a sort of circumspect, carefully moderated, led opportunity for psychedelics could, for many people, be really helpful in terms of rekindling that sense of meaning, purpose, wonder, awe. elements of what's important for for human flourishing Joe Moore (48:01): Yeah um it's perhaps out of out of your scope but i'm sure you've thought about like what what would need to shift in the contemporary education paradigm in order to like help people stay a little bit more creative or interested Kenneth Tupper (48:20): I distinguish between education and schooling. Those are two different concepts. So education is a much broader, more philosophical type of how do we raise young people into adults in a whole variety of different ways. Schooling is a much more narrow, again, construct that was part of the broader apparatus of things like hospitals, mental institutions, et cetera, put in place in the nineteenth century. So I don't see psychedelics necessarily fitting into the school system as we've currently got it. But as a broader understanding of education, I was challenged with this question when I was actually working on my master's thesis, where I was first developing these ideas around entheogenic education. One of my professors was Dr. Bruce Alexander. Shout out. He was a psychology professor who is most famous for the Rat Park studies that he did in the So he was on my master's committee and he was, I'd say, the most enthusiastic or he was keen to, as he said, okay, you've persuaded me on the idea. How do you do it? What's the implementation pathway here? And that was a challenge because I hadn't really thought, I was more sort of trying to frame a theoretical foundation for even discussing the topic. But sort of came to the idea and conversation with a friend of the idea of, and he coined this phrase, instead of outward bound, something like inward bound, which would be, an experiential education program like Outward Bound, where maybe it's, you know, a cohort of young people with some caring adults that do something, you know, a few days in nature, but it culminates with, you know, a peyote ceremony, ayahuasca ceremony, or psilocybin, you know, some sort of structured psychedelic experience that could, again, you probably, you would need careful screening and selection. It's maybe not forever. And just this Outward Bound, is not for everybody. Some people for whom maybe that's not an appropriate program. And there's risk involved. I wouldn't deny it. Same thing with Outward Bound. There's been deaths of both leaders and participants in Outward Bound programs, but seen overall to be a broadly really sort of helpful way of conceptualizing your alternative approach to education that for many people, schools don't just kind of fit the bill. Joe Moore (50:27): Yeah, that would be really interesting. And just more enrichment and it's hard, you know, we're stretched thin everywhere with budgets, but is developing this next level of genius or next generation of genius creatives. Kenneth Tupper (50:44): Well, I think it's the biggest challenge is actually the advent of AI. And like, you know, when I was young, learning long division seemed kind of pointless when you had pocket calculators. But now it's the entire, you know, reading, writing, and arithmetic is all outsourced to AI. What do we do with education? K through PhD, like the entire elementary, secondary, post-secondary ways of doing things are... dissolving in front of our eyes. And I know people that I talk to in universities and in school, like the mainstream public school systems are struggling. And I don't have the answer other than I think it's going to be a lot about social emotional development, socialization, just getting kids off screens for several hours a day is probably going to be an important piece of what it means to be educated in the future. Joe Moore (51:30): Right. Kenneth Tupper (51:33): I used as a foundation for my academic work a Soviet psychologist who is mostly not known about in the twentieth century. He was working in the nineteen tens, nineteen twenties in the Soviet Union named Lev Vygotsky. I think his work only got translated into English in the nineteen sixties but he kind of became big in education circles in the seventies and eighties and I picked up on his ideas and he developed a kind of alternative understanding of childhood development different from Piaget and Skinner and some of these other behavioral psychologists and child development experts that were dominant throughout the twentieth century in the West. He argued that becoming educated and developing is becoming versatile with cognitive tools. And that's the term that I found really, really helpful. And he talked about literacy, reading, writing, numeracy, skill, those types of things as becoming performative with cognitive tools, that learning to read and write is learning how to use a cognitive tool. And literacy is not a natural thing to learn learning a language is a natural thing to learn spoken and you know we've spoken languages for hundreds nobody knows how long a hundred thousand years plus but literacy has only been around for like five thousand years there's lots of ways that it can go wrong in terms of education and So that idea of cognitive tool I found really helpful to think about how to frame psychedelics or entheogens as ways to harness a particular kind of tool that has been respected and understood in other cultural traditions but lost from our own. and think about how to integrate those for potentially educational purposes as well as obviously healing purposes and see that obviously is a important component as well but to catalyze you know again creativity wonder awe sense of connectedness and it's partly the not just the experience but the stories that are told about the experience so again in many indigenous traditions you're taught you're told stories about meeting your ancestor spirits and connecting with the you know animistic forest spirits that will happen for you when you have the opportunity to use uh you know the medicine of one's community at the appropriate time and age and so the growing up with that kind of respect and anticipation is a kind of placebo enhancer for when the opportunity finally comes to have those experiences and you're already well set and prepared for it. In contrast, you know, I think about my own introduction to these substances as a teenager, it's almost the reverse. And in fact, it's surprising how few people are harmed given the nocebo, the opposite of placebo is the nocebo effect of like, you know, anticipating something negative is going to happen, given all the kind of scare stories about LSD and, you know, in the seventies and eighties, people jumping out of windows or going blind from staring at the sun. The fact that people had primarily positive experiences is almost surprising given the stories that we were told as kids. And that's sort of in retrospect how I look at my own sort of introduction to these things as playing with really powerful tools like they were toys because I had no cultural context for understanding them as tools. You know, it was really just, you know, let's drop acid and look at the pretty colors and laugh. But sort of for me, it was like sensing this kind of cosmological awareness of something deeper that was... catalyzed in a way that was unexpected, but tremendously rewarding and valuable. Joe Moore (55:27): So I'm seeing here in my notes that you were able to work with Dennis McKenna a little bit. Kenneth Tupper (55:32): So I read, well, Part of my PhD topic came from Terence's book, Food of the Gods. I remember in the mid-nineties reading that book and then Wade Davis's book, One River. And in both of them, they talked about ayahuasca, something I'd never heard of. And the idea that indigenous peoples of the Amazon talked about learning from ayahuasca as a plant teacher. And I was struck that was where that kind of education metaphor hooked. Also, actually, Aldous Huxley's book, Island. I'll give a big shout out. That was another big influence. But Terrence McKay, I didn't know anything about a brother of Terrence until in the early two thousands. Dennis published a paper called Ayahuasca and Human Destiny that I read. And it really resonated with what I was experiencing in my own encounters at that point with Ayahuasca. and found out that he actually had gone to the University of British Columbia for his PhD. It was his alma mater. He was an alumnus of UBC and had moved back to British Columbia at that point. So got an introduction and he signed on to be on my PhD dissertation committee, which I was tremendously grateful for. He's a world's expert on ethnobotany and ayahuasca specifically. Joe Moore (56:44): That must've been really fun. Kenneth Tupper (56:45): Yeah. He's, he's, he's always fun to talk to. Very creative. Joe Moore (56:50): That's great. And, um, did you work on any ayahuasca issues in Canada? Kenneth Tupper (56:57): So my PhD dissertation was looking at the Canadian government's response to a application from a Brazilian church called the Santo Daime that had set up a chapter in Montreal as an offshoot of Brazilian mother churches and was seeking, we have in Canadian drug law, we have a controlled drugs and substance act. There's something called a section fifty six exemption, which allows the minister to give an exemption to the drug law. It's actually what allows supervised injection sites to operate. an exemption that allows them to operate legally. But there was this church application had been put forward for, and if you read the act, it says the minister may grant an exemption for medical, scientific, or purposes otherwise in the public interest. And it's that third clause that's actually really you know, broadly interpretable phrase. And the church put forward a religious freedom exemption, just basically said, we want to use our sacrament and import it, not just use, but we want to import our sacrament from Brazil and, you know, perform ceremonies for our congregation. And so I had the good fortune of encountering the applicant, Dr. Jessica Rochester in Montreal, and learning about her endeavor and ended up doing an access to information request, an FOI or Freedom of Information request that generated three hundred and eighty pages of internal Health Canada documents on their decision making from the sort of initial, what the hell is ayahuasca, because of course they'd never heard of it. to what I described as kind of a smoking gun document, which was a twenty-page issue analysis summary going through the evidence to date at that point of potential risks and harms. It was mostly unredacted, but there was a few key redactions, so I can't make a conclusive determination, but it ultimately led to a recommendation for the exemption to be given. However, it took ten years from that point before they actually got the exemption because there was a change in political shift in Ottawa. That was when our previous prime minister, Stephen Harper, got elected. So the recommendation came forward just as he took office. And for the next ten years, there was a conservative government that did not look favorably on anything drug policy related. So it kind of got held up. There was also import-export conundrums, a catch-twenty-two between the government of Canada and the government of Brazil around who was going to authorize import versus export first. But ultimately, in the Santé d'Aimé in Montreal got their exemption and legally operate to this day. I think the Canadian government was looking at the U.S. Supreme Court decision around the Unio de Vegetal. A preliminary injunction that was held up or held to be in favor of the church and religious freedom down there. So it was an interesting topic to be working on in terms of, as I described it, looking at sort of how liberal democratic states, it was focused on Canada, but also broadly looking at like the Netherlands, the United States, Spain. There was other countries that were dealing with these same issues. trying to uphold competing principles of civil liberties, religious freedom, criminal justice, public health, economics, all these things kind of pulling in different directions with respect to ayahuasca, which is really kind of an outlier with respect to mainstream drug policy or drug laws, the architecture set up through the United Nations International Drug Control System, the three international treaties. And when you look at that whole apparatus, it's really difficult to fold in ceremonial entheogen. And here I would use the word entheogen very sort of specifically for the Santo Daime practices because it is overtly spiritual. And ultimately Health Canada's decision was very narrowly circumscribed for only ceremonial and religious uses. In fact, one of their key things was no health claims shall be made. This is not a medicine. There's no medicinal opportunities here. It's purely a sacramental use that has to be under the umbrella of religious practice. Joe Moore (1:01:01): That's interesting. Did the church object to that framing at all? Kenneth Tupper (1:01:07): No, they were okay with it. I mean, they recognized that if they tried to fight it, it would be a... Health Canada would push back and say, well, if you're making medical claims, then you've got to go and do a... Phase one, phase two, phase three clinical trials and a hundred million dollars. And, you know, so they were happy to stick with them, I think, in that sort of religious framing. And, you know, they were following the Santo Daime traditions of what was legally permissible in Brazil. And that was another advantage for them is that they kind of fit nicely into the box of what, Canada and the bureaucrats in Ottawa understood as religious practice. A shamanic type of use involving ayahuasca with a much more kind of diffuse history. The brew that is served in the Santo Daime is very sort of narrow and involves just two plants. Whereas in many indigenous traditions like Shipibo or Shuar, so many different words even for what is prepared as an ayahuasca brew. And the word ayahuasca, somebody said it's kind of like the word casserole. There's lots of things that you can put into it and still call it ayahuasca. There's a few key things, but lots of other, you know, toy, tobacco, coca. There's all kinds of plants that get mixed in. Joe Moore (1:02:21): I've never heard the casserole analogy. It's amazing. I have a paper I'd like to write, or at least I wanted to write an article on this concept of, it's a tricky one. consent in ayahuasca spaces around admixtures and we just don't know what's in things and if it's safe for me or is it even the thing that I signed up for? Have you bumped into any of those discussions? Kenneth Tupper (1:02:54): Yeah, I mean, it's obviously, and I've been in ceremonies where the brew has been very powerful in ways that, you know, weren't necessarily sort of reminiscent of previous experiences that made me think, and, you know, whether or not the person pouring, leading the ceremony knows themselves what has gone into it often is questionable. So for sure there's, but then the question comes up is okay well then how would one begin to standardize or regulate something like a traditional indigenous practice that defies that because the proprietary sort of recipe that is followed by a shaman cooking up in the jungle The idea you're going to come in and impose, okay, you're going to have this many, you know, chacruna, psychotria leaves and, you know, this amount of the ayahuasca vine and that's it. Nothing else. It's like anathema to their whole way of understanding what's needed. Joe Moore (1:03:47): Like sharing the recipe is super scary for them too, or just not appropriate. Kenneth Tupper (1:03:52): Yeah. Yeah. Joe Moore (1:03:54): It's interesting. I thought about this from like a, okay, we're selling to Westerners. Westerners can choose to go that way. but how do we make safer more kind of well-documented options available I remember ages ago people saying like yeah I don't don't really like the toe a blend but if I had something really bad happening I would go for that which is wild because that's a pretty high dose scopolamine situation yeah um you know and people have been harmed from the nicotine in there from nicotine or rustica go ahead Kenneth Tupper (1:04:23): There's also, you know, the whole question of commensurability of Western biomedical understandings of what's going on in an ayahuasca ceremony versus traditional indigenous understandings, which are, again, very diverse. Different indigenous groups have their own understandings of illness and disease, but mostly, I would say, incommensurable and diverse. There's a naivety that I certainly experienced or became aware of in my youthful endeavor to get into research in this space that my hippie ideals of pink elephants and fluffy bunnies was fundamentally at odds with the deep, rich history of how ayahuasca has been used in the Amazon, which is one as much of assault sorcery, black magic, as it is for healing. An analogy I use is it's like nuclear energy. It can be used for healing and helping nuclear medicine, but it can also be used for potential harm. Going down as a Wessner to the Amazon, as some people have described it, going into a war zone with magic darts flying all over the place shamans with you know intergenerational enmity that uh you know casting black magic and hexes on one another um and i know more than one westerner who's gone down and felt they came back worse for the experience because of what's been attributed to black magic so it's again what sense to make of that i don't know it's a it's a challenging challenging piece but uh certainly fascinating as well Joe Moore (1:05:59): The final one is this fermenting of ayahuasca. And I've chatted with some experts on this and this idea of like, the more it ferments, the more wise it is in some traditions. And then like to kind of clean it up and get it ready for serving, it would be like a skim of the malt on the top and then boiling it and then serving it. And I think in some cultural containers, it's totally cool. People have the gut biome for it. You bring somebody from Toronto and drop them in there, they are toast for potentially a while. And why Toronto? We'll get into that on another episode. But I think it's wild to think that people don't... Consumers don't know what they don't know. And they don't know to ask questions. And I think that's a big deal. Kenneth Tupper (1:06:56): Absolutely. And that's why when I give public talks and this kind of thing, I always emphasize a harm reduction perspective and educating oneself, learning as much as you can before you know, entering and find out the lineage of the person you're working with, who are they trained by. And especially for women, there's also an awareness of sexual assault and, you know, predators, sort of shamans who claim to be something that they're not and power dynamics. Shout out to the Women's Visionary Congress who have a great website page on, it's meant for women. I think it's good advice for men as well. on how to protect yourself if you're going into some kind of plant ceremony practice and a bunch of things that you need to consider and either ask questions of or take precautions on when you're thinking about it and ultimately doing it if you go that way. Joe Moore (1:07:51): Cool. And I think in terms of a closing thought around this philosophy of education background that you have and what might we take from that field of philosophy of education at this interesting juncture of psychedelic history? Kenneth Tupper (1:08:14): Ooh, that's a big question. Joe Moore (1:08:16): Yeah. Kenneth Tupper (1:08:17): Just that there's more ways of knowing than... You know, it's interesting. We live in a time of kind of the evaporation of truth and authority. Partly, I think, when you think about the idea of authority and authorship coming along with the printing press... the emergence of science as part of a function of the dissemination of knowledge through the printing press we're now in a similar moment with with first you know the internet and social media and now ai is like this compressed time frame of reconceptualizing epistemology which is kind of the philosophy of knowledge what does it mean what does it mean to know something and how do we make claims of knowledge um and my part of my sort of enterprise was to broaden that idea of knowledge to be not just limited to Western scientific approaches. Although I still value, I was raised myself personally to be a scientist in my patrilineal tradition and still tremendously value that method for, for discerning ways of understanding the universe, but it's not exclusive to what I think is valuable. And, you know, coming into deeper into the twenty-first century, thinking about the predicament of humans, you know, the, the reconciling ecology and economy, I would say is one of the crises of our times. It's not global warming per se, it's more how do we manage an infinite growth paradigm of economy with the finite limitations of planetary systems. I don't personally think it's going to be going to the moon or to Mars. I think it's more figuring out how to live sustainably on the planet we've got and you know maybe that's a hippie idealistic thing but i feel like these kinds of experiences these kinds of cognitive tools or plant teachers are our ways to help us uh navigate that path forward uh or at least was maybe fifty years ago maybe we're past a point for no return now i don't know right this is like big questions that we need to ask ourselves Joe Moore (1:10:14): Absolutely yeah um anything you want to leave folks with or Kenneth Tupper (1:10:19): If you're interested in reading the academic thoughts I've put into all of this, you can find it on my website. Oh, I've got a podcast that I started as well. I'll just maybe close with the title is Intonicated, a word that came to me in my Ibogaine experience last year where I was reflecting on the state of consciousness that I was in, understanding that if I was assessed by a medical professional, I would be deemed intoxicated for sure. I was unable to stand up, let alone drive a car. But I didn't feel anything toxic happening. In fact, I felt the exact opposite. I felt there was this healing going through my body at a subcellular mitochondrial level, working spiritually, psychologically, physically, simultaneously. And I felt like there was a tonic happening. And I felt like I don't feel intoxicated. I feel intonicated. and came to realize that after I came down and looked it up, no such word existed, but I felt like it was a good title for a podcast. So I started putting some interviews with friends and colleagues out there. Joe Moore (1:11:22): I love this. And I think you have a level up on Jonathan Ott's argument around shifting from toxicology or, sorry, intoxication to inebriation. I feel like Intonicated could be even better because it has less of those kind of baggage notes around opioids or anything. Kenneth Tupper (1:11:41): Yeah, yeah. Thank you. I'd love to. Unfortunately, Jonathan Knott's passed away, but I'm sure we would have had a good dialogue about the merits of that term. Joe Moore (1:11:51): Right. All right. Ken, I thank you so much for doing this with me. I hope we can do more. I remember when we met, you were still working for the government and I wasn't sure how to get you on the show. Kenneth Tupper (1:12:06): Yeah, no, I've left government and a bit more if you're free to speak and share. So I'm happy to be doing it here with you and psychedelics today audience. Joe Moore (1:12:15): All right. Until next time. Thank you everybody for tuning in. We'll see you next time. Bye-bye. Frequently Asked Questions Who is Kenneth Tupper? Kenneth Tupper, PhD, is a Canadian public health researcher, drug-policy expert, educator, and psychedelic scholar. His work has included harm reduction, drug checking, the opioid overdose crisis, psychedelic policy, ayahuasca research, and the relationship between psychedelics and education. What does Kenneth Tupper mean by "entheogenic education"? Entheogenic education is Tupper's framework for considering psychedelics and traditional psychoactive plants as potential tools for learning rather than viewing them exclusively as recreational drugs or medical treatments. His work draws partly on Indigenous traditions in which substances such as ayahuasca, peyote, and psilocybin mushrooms may be understood as teachers. Why does Tupper criticize traditional drug education? Tupper argues that much drug education has historically focused on achieving a predetermined behavioral outcome—usually abstinence—rather than genuinely educating young people about drugs. He contrasts this with more experiential approaches to education that encourage curiosity, critical thinking, and informed decision-making. What does the episode say about British Columbia's drug decriminalization experiment? Tupper describes decriminalization as only one component of a much larger system. Removing criminal penalties for possession does not by itself address an unpredictable illicit drug supply, housing, healthcare, addiction treatment, mental health, or social services. The episode examines why policy outcomes depend heavily on what other supports are implemented at the same time. What are the safety concerns around ayahuasca admixtures? Ayahuasca preparations can vary significantly between traditions and practitioners. Joe and Tupper discuss questions around informed consent, additional plants in a brew, pharmacological interactions, practitioner transparency, cultural differences, and the difficulty of applying Western standardization requirements to traditional ceremonial practices.
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  PT 660 - Josh Lipson & Roman Palitsky: Psychedelic Harms and the Post-Psychedelic Challenges Study 12.08.2026 1t 12min

  This is an important discussion about harms, and what we should be doing about them. Josh and Roman are working on a major study at Emory University to answer some of the basic and outstanding questions we have about psychedelic risks and cases that can be challenging to recover from. We have a lot of work to do characterizing these experiences, and developing appropriate treatments for helping people bounce back more quickly. 
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  PT 659 - Megan Bowers & Mikayla Hellwich 05.08.2026 1t 20min

  This is a special episode featuring two of our favorite organizations. DanceSafe and Shulgin Foundation. Listen to Joe Moore record with the heads of these orgs and learn about how you may be able to buy some art to support them. This is a singularly important history and partnership. 
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  PT 658 - Mareesa Stertz – Sphinx Gate Beyond Burning Man: Psychedelic Healing Without Psychedelics 31.07.2026 1t 15min

  My friend Mareesa joins us again on PT to discuss art, integration, psychedelic experiences without drugs, the heros journey and her smaller sphinxes that may start touring the country! Enjoy! Here are some machine generated shownotes if you find them useful! Show Notes Sphinx Gate began as a pair of monumental 34-foot sculptures at Burning Man. Now, Mareesa Stertz and her collaborators are developing smaller, portable versions that could bring the experience to festivals, conferences, and communities around the country. The installation is designed as a sober rite of passage—one that draws on psychedelic experience without requiring anyone to take a drug. Participants move through four portals centered on the mind, body, heart, and destiny. Along the way, they are invited to identify a recurring personal story, notice how it lives in the body, meet it with greater compassion, and consider what might exist beyond it. Mareesa and Joe explore how the project draws from the Hero's Journey, Carl Jung's concept of individuation, participatory art, ritual, somatic awareness, and the riddles traditionally associated with the sphinx. They also discuss the importance of community in psychedelic integration, the stories and inherited beliefs that disrupt self-trust, and why healing is rarely the result of one dramatic experience. The conversation expands into peer support, the Global Psychedelic Society, the risks of presenting psychedelics as a quick fix, and the challenge of remaining fully human as artificial intelligence becomes more embedded in everyday life.  
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  PT 657 - Rachel Turetzky PhD & Douglas S. Wingate DTCM: The Eight-Circuit Model, Metaprogramming, and Psychedelic Therapy 23.07.2026 1t 18min

  Kyle and Joe interview Rachel Turetzky & Douglas S. Wingate about their perspectives on the Wilson\Leary 8 Circuit Model of consciousness. They recently released a CE approved program on Psychedelic Education Center to train therapists on this model and how to integrate the 8 Circuit Model into your clinical therapy practice. In this episode: Maybe Day and maybe logic: Honoring Robert Anton Wilson and learning to hold beliefs, models, and interpretations more lightly Reality tunnels: How biology, experience, culture, and conditioning filter our perception of reality Robert Anton Wilson's legacy: Guerrilla ontology, stand-up philosophy, Prometheus Rising, and using humor to destabilize rigid beliefs Timothy Leary beyond the caricature: His early work in psychology, the development of the Eight-Circuit Model, and the parts of his intellectual legacy that are often overlooked The first four circuits: Bodily safety, emotional territory, language and symbolic thinking, and social and relational conditioning The upper circuits: Sensory and somatic intelligence, metacognition, archetypal and transpersonal experience, and unitive states of consciousness Metaprogramming: Identifying the beliefs, imprints, and automatic patterns shaping our lives—and developing the capacity to revise them Circuit Zero and Stanislav Grof: Prenatal and perinatal experience, the basic perinatal matrices, and the lasting influence of early development Normalizing unusual experiences: Archetypal encounters, ancestral material, entities, out-of-body experiences, synchronicities, and other phenomena that conventional psychology may struggle to interpret Psychedelics and re-imprinting: How expanded states may loosen entrenched developmental patterns and create opportunities for psychological change Pleasure as therapeutic material: Anhedonia, chronic survival states, the "hedonic intelligence" of Circuit Five, and learning to experience joy without treating it as a distraction from the work Clinical applications: Using the model during psychedelic preparation to identify intentions, developmental imprints, and material that may emerge Medicine and dosage selection: How MDMA, ketamine, psilocybin, LSD, and 5-MeO-DMT may produce different experiences depending on the intention and dose Integration and verticality: Grounding expansive, archetypal, or unitive experiences through the body, emotions, relationships, and everyday life Chapel Perilous: Understanding destabilizing experiences, ontological shock, spiritual emergencies, and the process of reconstructing meaning afterward Beyond psychedelics: Connections with yoga, meditation, occult practice, Chinese medicine, chakra systems, and other psychospiritual traditions The new course: The structure of The Eight-Circuit Model of Consciousness: An Integrative Framework for Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy, including its 14 lessons, practical exercises, assessments, certification, and continuing-education options
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  PT 656 - Travis Tyler Fluck: Denver Mushroom Decriminalization, Mutual Aid, and the Future of Psychedelic Culture 11.05.2026 1t 43min

  Denver mushroom decriminalization changed the national conversation around psilocybin access, personal use, and grassroots psychedelic reform. In this episode of Psychedelics Today, Joe Moore speaks with Travis Tyler Fluck, an autognostic mycologist, educator, activist, end-of-life doula, and longtime Colorado mushroom community organizer. Fluck was involved in Denver's 2019 psilocybin campaign, which made adult personal use and possession of psilocybin mushrooms the city's lowest law enforcement priority. The campaign passed by a narrow margin and helped open the door for later reforms in Oakland, Washington, D.C., Oregon, Colorado, and beyond. This conversation looks at the people, ethics, and tensions behind Denver mushroom decriminalization. It also explores what happens after a law changes: how communities educate themselves, how personal use spaces develop, and how grassroots access fits alongside regulated psychedelic services.
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  PT 655 - Martha Hammel and Tasia Poinsatte - Aspen Psychedelic Symposium 08.05.2026 54min

  Aspen Psychedelic Symposium is the focus of this conversation with Martha Hammel of the Aspen Psychedelic Resource Center and Tasia Poinsatte of Healing Advocacy Fund. They join Joe Moore to discuss this year's symposium, how it fits into Colorado's evolving natural medicine landscape, and why Aspen has become a strong setting for serious public conversations about psychedelics. Hammel explains that the symposium is now in its third year and is designed to bring major psychedelic voices to Colorado's West Slope. She also outlines the local roots of the Aspen Psychedelic Resource Center, which grew out of education and outreach work around decriminalization and the Natural Medicine Health Act. Poinsatte describes Healing Advocacy Fund's broader role across Oregon, Colorado, and New Mexico, where the group works on safe access, implementation, affordability, and public education.
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  PT 654 - Erica Rex - Seeing What Is There 23.04.2026 1t 20min

  Seeing What Is There is at the center of this conversation with journalist and author Erica Rex, who joins Joe Moore to discuss her book Seeing What Is There: My Search for Sanity in the Psychedelic Era. Rex brings an unusual mix of personal experience and scientific rigor. She came to psychedelic medicine after breast cancer, participation in Roland Griffiths' clinical trial for cancer-related depression, and a long career in journalism covering science, nature, climate, and technology.
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  PT 653 - Dr. Michael Alpert and Peter Alberding - ALS, Existential Distress, and Ketamine Therapy 16.04.2026 1t 19min

  ALS and ketamine therapy are at the center of this conversation with psychiatrist Dr. Michael Alpert and Peter Alberding, who was diagnosed with ALS in late 2023. Alpert is a Boston-area psychiatrist with experience in MDMA-assisted therapy research for PTSD and a private practice that includes ketamine-assisted psychotherapy. Alberding shares what it has been like to face a fatal neurodegenerative illness while working with ketamine in a structured clinical setting. Alberding explains that he was not looking for a casual psychedelic experience. He wanted help facing fear, grief, loss of function, and the reality of death. Over time, ketamine-assisted psychotherapy became a tool for processing those changes more directly than talk therapy alone had allowed.  
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  PT 652 - Esme Dark - Psychedelics, Somatics and the Shadow 25.03.2026 1t 14min

  Dr. Esme Dark joins Kyle Buller for a conversation on psychedelic therapy, somatic psychotherapy, and shadow work. Based in Australia, Dark is a clinical psychologist, somatic psychotherapist, and psychedelic therapist. She shares her perspective on Australia's authorized prescriber model, the role of psychotherapy in psychedelic care, and what it means to work with the body before, during, and after a psychedelic experience. The discussion stays practical. Dark draws on her work in research settings, including psilocybin-assisted psychotherapy for generalized anxiety disorder at Monash University. She explains that Australia has not decriminalized psychedelics. Instead, psilocybin and MDMA can be prescribed in limited cases through a psychiatrist-led system. That distinction matters, especially as public discussion often moves faster than the actual clinical infrastructure. Kyle and Dark also explore what happens in the therapy room. They talk about nervous system activation, body-based awareness, co-therapy, breathwork, and the challenge of knowing when to intervene and when to stay out of the way. The episode also turns toward creativity, self-expression, and the parts of the self that often remain split off or underdeveloped.
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  PT 651 - Betty Aldworth & Ismail Ali: MAPS Co-Executive Directors on Leadership, Research, and the Future of Psychedelics 19.03.2026 1t 22min

  MAPS co-executive directors Betty Aldworth and Ismail Ali join Psychedelics Today to talk about leading one of the most visible organizations in the psychedelic field during a period of transition. The conversation covers their move into permanent leadership, how they work together, and how MAPS is thinking about research, education, policy, and movement strategy after a difficult period for the organization and the broader field.
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  PT 650 - Joe Moore Psychedelics Today on Leadership, Integration, and the Psychedelic Landscape 09.03.2026 1t 6min

  Jen Davenport joins Psychedelics Today to interview co-founder Joe Moore about the growth of Psychedelics Today, the broader psychedelic ecosystem, and how professionals are beginning to engage with psychedelic ideas. Davenport is the founder of Iron Thread Partners and a graduate of the Vital psychedelic training program. Her work focuses on executive leadership, decision making, and organizational development. In this conversation she asks Moore about the evolution of Psychedelics Today and the changes he has witnessed across the psychedelic field over the past decade. Moore explains that Psychedelics Today began as a podcast exploring psychedelic research, therapy, and culture. Over time the project expanded into a media and education platform covering psychedelic science, harm reduction, and professional training. The organization now produces podcasts, journalism, courses, and public conversations about psychedelics and their place in modern society. A central part of the discussion is psychedelic integration. Moore notes that insight during a psychedelic experience does not automatically lead to lasting change. The integration process often requires continued work through journaling, meditation, therapy, and community support. These practices help people translate insights into stable changes in behavior and perspective. The conversation also explores policy changes in the United States. Colorado's Natural Medicine framework is creating a regulated system for psychedelic services while the state also maintains a broader decriminalization approach. Moore discusses the tension between regulated access and grassroots psychedelic culture, as well as the questions around accessibility, pricing, and corporate participation. Davenport asks how executives and professionals are approaching psychedelics. In some circles psychedelics are framed as tools for creativity or performance. Moore cautions against this framing. Psychedelics often open difficult personal material and should be approached with care rather than treated as productivity tools. Education remains a recurring theme throughout the episode. As public interest grows, Moore stresses the importance of studying the legal landscape, understanding the scientific literature, and developing responsible practices for preparation and integration. The conversation offers a grounded look at how Psychedelics Today approaches the psychedelic resurgence. Rather than focusing on hype, Moore emphasizes education, safety, and thoughtful engagement with psychedelic experiences.
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  PT 649 - Melissa Lavasani and Jay Kopelman 19.02.2026 1t 10min

  Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman join our podcast to discuss how psychedelic policy is actually moving in Washington, DC. Lavasani leads Psychedelic Medicine Coalition, a DC-based advocacy organization focused on educating federal officials and advancing legislation around psychedelic medicine. Kopelman is CEO of Mission Within Foundation, which provides scholarships for veterans and first responders seeking psychedelic-assisted therapy retreats, often outside the United States. The conversation centers on veterans, the VA, and why that system may be the first realistic federal pathway for psychedelic care. Early Themes Lavasani describes PMC's work on Capitol Hill, including hosting events that bring lawmakers, staffers, and advocates into the same room. Her focus is steady engagement. In DC, progress often happens through repeated conversations, not headlines. Kopelman shares his background as a Marine and how his own psychedelic-assisted therapy experience led him to Mission Within. The foundation has funded more than 250 scholarships for veterans and first responders seeking treatment for PTSD, mild traumatic brain injury, depression, and addiction. They connect this work to pending veteran-focused legislation and explain why the VA matters. As a closed health system, the VA can pilot programs, gather data, and refine protocols without the pressures of private healthcare markets. Core Insights A recent Capitol Hill gathering, For Veteran Society, brought together members of Congress and leaders from the psychedelic caucus. Lavasani describes candid feedback from lawmakers. The message was clear: coordinate messaging, avoid fragmentation, and move while bipartisan interest remains. Veteran healthcare is not framed as the final goal. It is a starting point. If psychedelic therapies can demonstrate safety and effectiveness within the VA, broader adoption becomes more plausible. Kopelman raises operational realities that must be addressed: Standardized safety protocols across providers Integration support, not medication alone Clear training pathways for clinicians Real-world data beyond tightly screened clinical trials They also address recent negative headlines involving ibogaine treatment abroad. Kopelman emphasizes the need for shared learning across providers, especially when adverse events occur. Lavasani argues that inconsistency within the ecosystem can slow federal confidence. Later Discussion and Takeaways The discussion widens to federal momentum around addiction and mental health. Lavasani notes that new funding initiatives signal growing openness to innovative treatment models, even if psychedelics are not named explicitly in every announcement. Both guests stress that policy moves slowly by design. Meetings, follow-ups, and relationship building often matter more than public statements. For clinicians, researchers, operators, and advocates, the takeaways are direct: Veterans are likely the first federal pathway Public education remains essential Safety standards must be shared and transparent Integration and workforce development need attention now If psychedelic medicine enters federal systems, infrastructure will determine success. Frequently Asked Questions What do Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman say about VA psychedelic policy? They argue that veteran-focused legislation offers a realistic first federal pathway for psychedelic-assisted care. Is ibogaine currently available through the VA? No. They discuss ibogaine in the context of private retreats and future possibilities, not an existing VA program. Why do Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman emphasize coordination? Lawmakers respond more positively when advocates present aligned messaging and clear priorities. What safety issues are discussed by Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman? They highlight the need for standardized screening, monitoring, integration support, and transparent review of adverse events. Closing Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman provide a grounded look at how psychedelic policy develops inside federal systems. Their message is practical: veterans may be the first lane, but long-term success depends on coordination, safety standards, and sustained engagement. Closing This episode captures a real-time view of how federal policy could shape the next phase of the psychedelic resurgence, especially through veteran-facing legislation and VA infrastructure. Melissa Lavasani & Jay Kopelman argue that coordination, public education, and shared safety standards will shape whether access expands with credibility and care. Transcript Joe Moore: [00:00:00] Hello everybody. Welcome back to Psychedelics Today. Today we have two guests, um, got Melissa Sani from Psychedelic Medicine Coalition. We got Jake Pelman from Mission Within Foundation. We're gonna talk about I bga I became policy on a recent, uh, set of meetings in Washington, DC and, uh, all sorts of other things I'm sure. Joe Moore: But thank you both for joining me. Melissa Lavasani: Thanks for having us. Jay Kopelman: Yeah, it's a pleasure. Thanks. Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, Melissa, I wanna have you, uh, jump in. First. Can you tell us a little bit about, uh, your work and what you do at PMC? Melissa Lavasani: Yeah, so Psychedelic Medicine Coalition is, um, the only DC based Washington DC based advocacy organization dedicated to the advancing the issue of psychedelics, um, and making sure the federal government has the education they need, um, and understands the issue inside out so that they can generate good policy around, around psychedelic medicines. Melissa Lavasani: [00:01:00] Uh, we. Host Hill events. We host other convenings. Our big event every year is the Federal Summit on psychedelic medicine. Um, that's going to be May 14th this year. Um, where we talk about kinda the pressing issues that need to be talked about, uh, with government officials in the room, um, so that we can incrementally move this forward. Melissa Lavasani: Um, our presence here in Washington DC is, is really critical for this issue's success because, um, when we're talking about psychedelic medicines, um, from the federal government pers perspective, you know, they are, they are the ones that are going to initiate the policies that create a healthcare system that can properly facilitate these medicines and make sure, um, patient safety is a priority. Melissa Lavasani: And there's guardrails on this. And, um, you know, there, it's, it's really important that we have. A home base for this issue in Washington DC just [00:02:00] because, uh, this is very complicated as a lot of your viewers probably understand, and, you know, this can get lost in the mix of all the other issues that, um, lawmakers in DC are focused on right now. Melissa Lavasani: And we need to keep that consistent presence here so that this continues to be a priority for members of Congress. Joe Moore: Mm. I love this. And Jay, can you tell us a bit about yourself and mission within Foundation? Jay Kopelman: Yeah, sure. Joe, thanks. Uh, I, I am the CEO of Mission within Foundation. Prior to this, most of my adult life was spent in the military as a Marine. Jay Kopelman: And I came to this. Role after having, uh, a psychedelic assisted therapy experience myself at the mission within down in Mexico, which is where pretty much we all go. Um, we are here to help [00:03:00] provide, uh, access for veterans and first responders to be able to attend psychedelic assisted therapy retreats to treat issues like mild TBI, post-traumatic stress disorder, uh, depression, sometimes addiction at, at a very low level. Jay Kopelman: Um, and, and so we've, we've been doing this for a little more than a year now and have provided 250 plus scholarships to veterans and first responders to be able to access. These retreats and these, these lifesaving medicines. Um, we're also partnered, uh, you may or may not know with Melissa at Psychedelic Medicine Coalition to help advance education and policy, specifically the innovative, uh, therapy Centers of Excellence Act [00:04:00] that Melissa has worked for a number of years on now to bring to both Houses of Congress. Joe Moore: Thank you for that. Um, so let's chat a little bit about what this event was that just, uh, went down, uh, what, what was it two weeks ago at this point? Melissa Lavasani: Yeah. Yeah. It's called For Veteran Society and it's all, um, there's a lot of dialogue on Capitol Hill about veterans healthcare and psychedelics, but where I've been frustrated is that, you know, it was just a lot of. Melissa Lavasani: Talk about what the problems are and not a lot of talk about like how we actually propel things forward. Um, so it, at that event, I thought it was really important and we had three members of Congress there, um, Morgan Latrell, who has been a champion from day one and his time in Congress, um, having gone through the experience himself, um, [00:05:00] at Mission within, um, and then the two chairs of the psychedelic caucus, uh, Lou Correa and Jack Bergman. Melissa Lavasani: And we really got down to the nitty gritty of like w like why this has taken so long and you know, what is actually happening right now? What are the possibilities and what the roadblocks are. And it was, I thought it was a great conversation. Um, we had an interesting kind of dynamic with Latres is like a very passionate about this issue in particular. Melissa Lavasani: Um, I think it was, I think it was really. A great event. And, you know, two days later, Jack Bergman introduced his new bill for the va. Um, so it was kind of like the precursor to that bill getting introduced. And we're just excited for more and more conversations about how the government can gently guide this issue to success. Joe Moore: Hmm. Yeah. [00:06:00] That's fantastic. Um, yeah, I was a little bummed I couldn't make it, but next time, I hope. But I've heard a lot of good things and, um, it's, it sounded like there was some really important messages in, in terms of like feedback from legislators. Yeah. Yeah. Could you speak to that? Melissa Lavasani: Yeah, I mean, I think when, uh, representative Latrell was speaking, he really impressed on us a couple things. Melissa Lavasani: Um, first is that, you know, they really kind of need the advocates to. Coordinate, collaborate and come up with like a, a strategic plan, you know, without public education. Um, talking to members of Congress about this issue is, is really difficult. You know, like PMC is just one organization. We're very little mission within, very little, um, you know, we're all like, kind of new in navigating, um, this not so new issue, but new to Washington DC [00:07:00] issue. Melissa Lavasani: Um, without that public education as a baseline, uh, it's, it's, you have to spend a lot of time educating members of Congress. You know, that's like one of our things is, you know, we have to, we don't wanna tell Congress what direction to go to. We wanna provide them the information so they understand it very intimately and know how to navigate through things. Melissa Lavasani: Um, and secondly. Um, he got pretty frank with us and said, you know, we've got one cha one chance at this issue. And it's like, that's, that's kind of been like my talking point since I started. PMC is like, you have a very limited window, um, when these kind of issues pop up and they're new and they're fresh and you have a lot of the veteran community coming out and talking about it. Melissa Lavasani: And there's a lot of energy there. But now is the time to really move forward, um, with some real legislation that can be impactful. Um, but, you know, we've gotta [00:08:00] be careful. We, we forget, I think sometimes those of us who are in the ecosystem forget that our level of knowledge about these medicines and a lot of us have firsthand experience, um, with these drugs and, and our own healing journeys is, um, we forget that there is a public out there that doesn't have the level of knowledge that we all have. Melissa Lavasani: And, um. We gotta make sure that we're sticking to the right elements of, of, of what needs to happen. We need to be sure that our talking points are on track and we're not getting sideways about anything and going down roads that we don't need to talk about. It's why, um, you know, PMC is very focused on, um, moving forward veteran legislation right now. Melissa Lavasani: Not because we're a veteran organization, but because we're, we see this long-term policy track here. Um, we know where we want to get [00:09:00] to, um. Um, and watching other healthcare issues kind of come up and then go through the VA healthcare system, I think it's a really unique opportunity, um, to utilize the VA as this closed system, the biggest healthcare system in the country to evaluate, uh, how psychedelics operate within systems like that. Melissa Lavasani: And, you know, before they get into, um, other healthcare systems. What do we need to fix? What do we need to pay attention to? What's something that we're paying too much attention to that doesn't necessarily need that much attention? So it's, um, it's a real opportunity to look at psychedelic medicines within a healthcare system and obviously continue to gather the data. Melissa Lavasani: Um, Bergman's Bill emerging, uh, expanding veteran access to emerging treatments. Um, not only mandates the research, it gives the VA authority for this, uh, for running trials and, and creating programs around psychedelic medicines. But also, [00:10:00] one of the great things about it, I think, is it provides an on-ramp for veterans that don't necessarily qualify for clinical trials. Melissa Lavasani: You know, I think that's one of the biggest criticisms of clinical trials is like you're cre you're creating a vacuum for people and people don't live in a vacuum. So we don't necessarily know what psychedelics are gonna look like in real life. Um, but with this expanding veteran access bill that Bergman introduced, it provides the VA an opportunity to provide this access under. Melissa Lavasani: Um, in a, in a safe container with medical supervision while collecting data, um, while ensuring that the veteran that is going through this process has the support systems that it needs. So, um, you know, I think that there's a really unique opportunity here, and like Latrell said, like, we've got one shot at this. Melissa Lavasani: We have people's attention in Congress. Um, now's the time to start acting, and let's be really considerate and thoughtful about what we're doing with it. Joe Moore: Thanks for that, Melissa and Jay, how, [00:11:00] anything to add there on kind of your takeaways from the this, uh, last visit in dc? Jay Kopelman: Yeah, I, I think that Melissa highlighted it really well and there, there were a couple other things that I, I think, you know, you could kind of tie it all together with some other issues that we face in this country, uh, and that. Jay Kopelman: Uh, representative Correa brought up as well, but one of the things I wanted to go back and say is that veterans have kind of led this movement already, right? So, so it's a, it's a good jumping off point, right? That it's something people from both sides of the aisle, from any community in America can get behind. Jay Kopelman: You know, if you think about it, uh, in World War ii, you know, we had a million people serving our population was like, not even 200 million, but now [00:12:00] we have a population of 330 million, and at any given time there might be a million people in uniform, including the Reserve and the National Guard. So it's, it, it's an easy thing to get behind this small part of the population that is willing to sign that contract. Jay Kopelman: Where you are saying, yeah, I'm going to defend my country, possibly at the risk of my l my own life. So that's the first thing. The other thing is that the VA being a closed health system, and they don't have shareholders to answer to, they can take some risks, they can be innovative and be forward thinking in the ways that some other healthcare systems can't. Jay Kopelman: And so they have a perfect opportunity to show that they truly care for their veterans, which don't, I'm not saying they don't, but this would be an [00:13:00] opportunity to show that carrot at a whole different level. Uh, it would allow them to innovate and be a leader in something as, uh, as our friend Jim Hancock will say, you know. Jay Kopelman: When he went to the Naval Academy, they had the world's best shipbuilding program. Why doesn't the VA have the world's best care program for things like TBI and PTSD, which affects, you know, 40 something percent of all veterans, right? So, so there's, there's an opportunity here for the VA to lead from the front. Jay Kopelman: Um, the, these medicines provide, you know, reasonably lasting care where it's kind of a one and done. Whereas with the current systems, the, you know, and, and [00:14:00] again, not to denigrate the VA in any way, they're doing the best job they can with the tools in their toolbox, right? But maybe it's time for a trip to Home Depot. Jay Kopelman: Let's get some new tools. And have some new ways of fixing what's broken, which is really the way of doing things. It's not, veterans aren't broken, we are who we are. Um, but it's a, it's a way to fix what isn't working. So I, I think that, you know, given there's tremendous veteran homelessness still, you know, addiction issues, all these things that do translate to the population at large are things that can be worked on in this one system, the va that can then be shown to have efficacy, have good data, have [00:15:00] good outcomes, and, and take it to the population at large. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Brilliant. Thanks for that. And so there was another thing I wanted to pivot to, which is some of the recent press. So we've, um, seen a little bit of press around some, um, in one instance, some bad behavior in Mexico that a FI put out Americans thrive again, put out. And then another case there was a, a recent fatality. Joe Moore: And I think, um, both are tragic. Like we shouldn't be having to deal with this at this point. Um, but there's a lot of things that got us here. Um, it's not necessarily the operator's fault entirely, um, or even at all, honestly, like some medical interventions just carry a lot of risk. Like think, think about like, uh, how risky bypass surgery was in the nineties, right? Joe Moore: Like people were dying a lot from medical interventions and um, you know, this is a major intervention, uh, ibogaine [00:16:00] and also a lot of promise. To help people quite a bit. Um, but as of right now, there's, there's risk. And part of that risk, in my opinion, comes from the inability of organizations to necessarily collaborate. Joe Moore: Like there's no kind of convening body, sitting in the middle, allowing, um, for, and facilitating really good data sharing and learnings. Um, and I don't, I don't necessarily see an organization stepping up and being the, um, the convener for that kind of work. I've heard rumors that something's gonna happen there, and I'm, I'm hopeful I'll always wanna share my opinion on that. Joe Moore: But yeah. I don't know. Jay, from your perspective, is there anything you want to kind of speak to about, uh, these two recent incidents that Americans for Iboga kind of publicized recently? Jay Kopelman: Yeah, so I, I'll echo your sentiment, of course, that these are tragic incidents. Um, and I, [00:17:00] I think that at least in the case of the death at Ambio, AMBIO has done a very good job of talking about it, right? Jay Kopelman: They've been very honest with the information that they have. And like you said, there are risks inherent to these medicines, and it's like anything else in medicine, there are going to be risks. You know, when I went through, uh, when I, when I went through chemo, you know, there were, there are risks. You know, you don't feel well, you get sick. Jay Kopelman: Um, and, and it. There are processes in place to counter that when it happens. And there are processes and, and procedures and safety protocols in place when caring for somebody going through an ibogaine [00:18:00] journey. Uh, when I did it, we had EKG echocardiogram. You're on a heart monitor the entire time they push magnesium via iv. Jay Kopelman: You have to provide a urinalysis sample to make sure that there is nothing in your system that is going to potentially harm you. During the ibogaine, they have, uh, a cardiologist who is monitoring the heart monitors throughout the ibogaine experience. So the, the safety protocols are there. I think it's, I think it's just a matter of. Jay Kopelman: Standardizing them across all, all providers, right? Like, that would be a good thing if people would talk to one another. Um, as, as in any system, right? You've gotta have [00:19:00] some collaboration. You've gotta have standardization, you know, so, you know, they're not called standard operating procedures for nothing. Jay Kopelman: That means that in a, you know, in a given environment, everybody does things the same way. It's true in Navy and Marine Corps, air Force, army Aviation, they have standard operating procedures for every single aircraft. So if you fly, let's say the F 35 now, right? Because it's flown by the Navy, the Marine Corps, and the Air Force. Jay Kopelman: The, the emergency procedures in that airplane are standardized across all three services, so you should have the same, or, you know, with within a couple of different words, the same procedures and processes [00:20:00] across all the providers, right? Like maybe in one document you're gonna change, happy to glad and small dog to puppy, but it's still pretty much the, the same thing. Jay Kopelman: And as a service that provides scholarships to people to go access these medicines and go to these retreats, you know, my criteria is that the, this provider has to be safe. Number one, safety's paramount. It's always gotta be very safe. It should, it has to be effective. And you know, once you have those two things in place, then I have a comfort level saying, okay, yeah, we'll work with this provider. Jay Kopelman: But until those standardized processes are in place, you'll probably see these one-off things. I mean, some providers have been doing this longer than others and have [00:21:00] really figured out, you know, they've, they've cracked the code and, you know, sharing that across the spectrum would be good. Um, but just when these things happen, having a clearing house, right, where everybody can come together and talk about it, you know, like once the facts are known because. Jay Kopelman: To my knowledge, we still don't know all the facts. Like as, you know, as horrible as this is, you still have to talk about like an, has an autopsy been performed? What was found in the patient's system? You know, there, there are things there that we don't know. So we need to, we need to know that before we can start saying, okay, well this is how we can fix that, because we just don't know. Jay Kopelman: And, you know, to their credit, you know, Amio has always been safe to, to the, to the best of my knowledge. You know, I, [00:22:00] I haven't been to Ambio myself, but people that I have worked with have been there. They have observed, they have seen the process. They believe it's safe, and I trust their opinion because they've seen it elsewhere as well. Jay Kopelman: So yeah, having, having that one place where we can all come together when this happens, it, it's almost like it should be mandatory. In the military when there's a training accident, we, you know, we would have to have what's called a safety standout. And you don't do that again for a little while until you figure out, okay, how are we going to mitigate that happening again? Jay Kopelman: Believe me, you can go overboard and we don't want to do that. Like, we don't wanna just stop all care, but maybe stop detox for a week and then come back to it. [00:23:00] Joe Moore: Yeah. A dream would be, let's get like the, I don't know, 10, 20 most popular, uh, or well-known operators together somewhere and just do like a three day debrief. Joe Moore: Hey, everybody, like, here's what we see. Let's work on this together. You know how normal medicine works. And this is, it's hard because this is not necessarily, um, something people feel safe about in America talking about 'cause it's illicit here. Um, I don't understand necessarily how the operations, uh, relate to each other in Mexico, but I think that's something to like the public should dig into. Joe Moore: Like, what, what is this? And I, I'll start digging into that. Um, I, I asked a question recently of somebody like, is there some sort of like back channel signal everybody's using and there's no clear Yes. You know? Um, I think it would be good. That's just a [00:24:00] start, you know, that's like, okay, we can actually kind of say hi and watch out for this to each other. Jay Kopelman: It's not like we don't all know one another, right? Joe Moore: Yes. Jay Kopelman: Like at least three operators we're represented. At the Aspen Ibogaine meeting. So like that could be, and I think there was a panel kind of loosely related to this during Aspen Ibogaine meeting, but Joe Moore: mm-hmm. Jay Kopelman: It, you know, have a breakout where the operators can go sit down and kind of compare notes. Joe Moore: Right. Yeah. Melissa, do you have any, uh, comments on this thread here? And I, I put you on mute if you didn't see that. Um, Melissa Lavasani: all right, I'm off mute. Um, yeah, I think that Jay's hits the nail on the head with the collaboration thing. Um, I think that it's just a [00:25:00] problem across the entire ecosystem, and I think that's just a product of us being relatively new and upcoming field. Melissa Lavasani: Um, uh, it's a product of, you know. Our fundraising community is really small, so organizations feel like they are competing for the same dollars, even though their, their goals are all the same, they have different functions. Um, I think with time, I mean, let's be honest, like if we don't start collaborating and, and the federal government's moving forward, the federal government's gonna coordinate for us. Melissa Lavasani: And not, that might not necessarily be a bad thing, but, you know, we understand this issue to a whole other level that the federal government doesn't, and they're not required to understand it deeply. They just need to know how to really move forward with it the proper way. Um, but I think that it. It's really essential [00:26:00] that we all have this come together moment here so we can avoid things. Melissa Lavasani: Uh, I mean, no one's gonna die from bad advocacy. So like I've, I have a bit of an easier job. Um, but it can a, a absolutely stall efforts, um, to move things forward in Washington DC when, um, one group is saying one thing, another group is saying another thing, like, we're not quite at a point yet where we can have multiple lines of conversation and multiple things moving forward. Melissa Lavasani: Um, you know, for PMC, it's like, just let's get the first thing across the finish line. And we think that is, um, veteran healthcare. And, um, I know there's plenty of other groups out there that, that want the same thing. So, you know, I always, the reason why I put on the Federal Summit last year was I kind of hit my breaking point with a lack of collaboration and I wanted to just bring everyone in the same room and say like, all right, here are the things that we need to talk about. Melissa Lavasani: And I think the goal for this year is, um. To bring people in the same room and say, we talked about [00:27:00] we scratched the surface last year and this is where we need to really put our efforts into. And this is where the opportunities are. Um, I think that is going to, that's going to show the federal government if we can organize ourselves, that they need to take this issue really seriously. Melissa Lavasani: Um, I don't think we've done a great job at that thus far, but I think there's still plenty of time for us to get it together. Um, and I'm hoping with these two, uh, VA bills that are in the house right now and Senate is, is putting together their version of these two bills, um, so that they can move in tandem with each other. Melissa Lavasani: I think that, you know, there's an opportunity here for. Us to show the federal government as an ecosystem, Hey, we, we are so much further ahead and you know, this is what we've organized and here's how we can help you, um, that would make them buy into this issue a bit more and potentially move things forward faster. Melissa Lavasani: Uh, at this point in time, it's, I think that, [00:28:00] you know, psychedelics aren't necessarily the taboo thing that they, they used to be, but there's certainly places that need attention. Um, there's certainly conversations that need to be had, and like I said, like PMC is just one organization that can do this. Um, we can certainly organize and drive forward collaboration, but I, like we alone, cannot cover all this ground and we need the subject matter experts to collaborate with us so we can, you know, once we get in the door, we wanna bring the experts in to talk to these officials about it. Melissa Lavasani: So I. I, I really want listeners to really think about us as a convener of sorts when it comes to federal policy. Um, and you know, I think when, like for example, in the early eighties, a lot of people have made comparisons to the issue of psychedelics to the issue of AIDS research and how you have in a subject matter that's like extremely taboo and a patient population that the government [00:29:00] quite honestly didn't really care about in the early eighties. Melissa Lavasani: But what they did as an ecosystem is really organized themselves, get very clear on what they wanted the federal government to do. And within a matter of a couple years, uh, AIDS research funding was a thing that was happening. And what that, what that did was that ripple effect turned that into basically finding new therapies for something that we thought was a death, death sentence before. Melissa Lavasani: So I think. We just need to look at things in the past that have been really successful, um, and, and try to take the lessons from all of these issues and, and move forward with psychedelics. Joe Moore: Love that. And yes, we always need to be figuring out efficient approaches and where it has been successful in the past is often, um, an opportunity to mimic and, and potentially improve on that. Melissa Lavasani: Yeah. Jay Kopelman: One, one thing I think it's important to add to this part of the conversation is that, [00:30:00] you know, Melissa pointed out there are a number of organizations that are essentially doing the same thing. Jay Kopelman: Um, you know, I like to think we do things a little bit differently at Mission within Foundation in that we don't target any one specific type of service member. We, we work with all veterans. We work with first responders, but. What that leads to is that there are, as far as I've seen, nothing but good intentioned people in this space. Jay Kopelman: You know, people who really care about their patient population, they care about healing, they are trying to do a good job, and more importantly, they're trying to do good. Right? It, it, I think they all see the benefit down the road that this has, [00:31:00] pardon me, not just for veterans, but for society as a whole. Jay Kopelman: And, and ultimately that's where I would like to see this go. You know, I, I would love to see the VA take this. Take up this mantle and, and run with it and provide great data, great outcomes. You know, we are doing some data collection ourselves at Mission within foundation, albeit anecdotal based on surveys given before and after retreats. Jay Kopelman: But we're also working with, uh, Greg Fonzo down at UT Austin on a brain study he's doing that will have 40 patients in it when it's all said and done. And I think we have two more guys to put through that. Uh, and then we'll hit the 40. So there, there's a lot of good here that's being done by some really, really good people who've been doing this for a long time [00:32:00] and want to want nothing more than to, to see this. Jay Kopelman: Come to, come full circle so that we can take care of many, many, many people. Um, you know, like I say, I, I wanna work myself out of a job here. I, I just, I would love to see this happen and then I, you know, I don't have to send guys to Mexico to do this. They can go to their local VA and get the care that they need. Jay Kopelman: Um, but one thing that I don't think we've touched on yet, or regarding that is that the VA isn't designed for that. So it's gonna be a pretty big lift to get the right types of providers into the va with the knowledge, right, with the institutional knowledge of how this should be done, what is safe, what is effective, um, and then it, it's not just providing these medicines to [00:33:00] people and sending them home. Jay Kopelman: You don't just do that, you've gotta have the right therapists on the backend who can provide the integration coaching to the folks who are receiving these medicines. And I'm not just talking, I bga, even with MDMA and psilocybin, you should have a proper period of integration. It helps you to understand how this is going to affect you, what it, what the experience really meant, you know, because it's very difficult sometimes to just interpret it on your own. Jay Kopelman: And so what the experience was and what it meant to you. And, and so it will take some time to spin all that up. But once it's, once it's in place, you know, the sky's the limit. I think. Joe Moore: Kinda curious Jay, about what's, what's going on with Ibogaine at the federal level. Is there anything at VA right now? [00:34:00] Jay Kopelman: At the va? No, not with ibogaine. And, you know, uh, we, we send people specifically for IBOGAINE and five MEO, right? And, and so that, that doesn't preclude my interest in seeing this legislation passed, right? Jay Kopelman: Because it, it will start with something like MDMA or psilocybin, but ultimately it could grow to iboga, right? It the think about the cost savings at, at the va, even with psilocybin, right? Where you could potentially treat somebody with a very inexpensive dose of psilocybin or, or iboga one time, and then you, you don't have to treat them again. Jay Kopelman: Now, if I were, uh, you know, a VA therapist who's not trained in psychedelic trauma therapy. I might be worried [00:35:00] about job security, but it's like with anything, right? Like ultimately it will open pathways for new people to get that training or the existing people to get that training and, and stay on and do that work. Jay Kopelman: Um, which only adds another arrow to their quiver as far as I'm concerned, because this is coming and we're gonna need the people. It's just like ai, right? Like ai, yeah. Some people are gonna lose some jobs initially, and that's unfortunate. But productivity ultimately across all industries will increase and new jobs will be created as a result of that. Jay Kopelman: I mean, I was watching Squawk Box one morning. They were talking about the AI revolution and how there's gonna be a need for 500,000 electricians to. Build these systems that are going to work with the AI [00:36:00] supercomputers and, and so, Joe Moore: mm-hmm. Jay Kopelman: Where, where an opportunity may be lost. I think several more can be gained going forward. Melissa Lavasani: And just to add on what Jay just said there, there's nothing specific going on with Ibogaine at, at the va, but I think this administration is, is taking a real look at addiction in particular. Uh, they just launched, uh, a new initiative, uh, that's really centered on addiction treatments called the Great American Recovery. Melissa Lavasani: And, um, they're dedicating a hundred million dollars towards treating addiction as like a chronic treatable disease and not necessarily a law enforcement issue. So, um, in that initiative there will be federal grant programs for prevention and treatment and recovery. And, um, while this isn't just for psychedelic medicines, uh, I think it's a really great opportunity for the discussion of psychedelics to get elevated to the White House. Melissa Lavasani: Um, [00:37:00] there's also, previous to this announcement last week from the White House, there's been a hundred million dollars that was dedicated at, um, at ARPA h, which is. The advanced research projects, uh, agency for healthcare, um, and that is kind of an agency that's really focused on forward looking, um, treatments and technologies, uh, for, um, a, a whole slew of. Melissa Lavasani: Of issues, but this a hundred million dollars is dedicated to mental health and addiction. So there's a lot of opportunity there as well. So we, while I think, you know, some people are talking about, oh, we need a executive order on Iboga, it's like, well, you know, the, the president is thinking, um, about, you know, what issues can land with his, uh, voting block. Melissa Lavasani: And I think it's, I don't think we necessarily need a specific executive order on Iboga to call this a success. It's like, let's look at what, [00:38:00] um, what's just been announced from the White House. They're, they're all in on. Thinking creatively and finding, uh, new solutions for this. And this is kind of, this aligns with, um, HHS secretaries, uh, Robert F. Melissa Lavasani: Kennedy Junior's goals when he took on this, this role of Health Secretary. Um, addiction has been a discussion that, you know, he has personal, um, a personal tie to from his own experience. And, um, I think when this administration started, there was so much like fervor around the, the dialogue of like, everyone's talking about psychedelics. Melissa Lavasani: It was Secretary Kennedy, it was, uh, secretary Collins at the va. It was FDA Commissioner Marty Macari. And I think that there's like a lot of undue frustration within folks 'cause um, you don't necessarily snap your fingers and change happens in Washington dc This is not the city for that. And it's intentionally designed to move slow so that we can avoid really big mistakes. Melissa Lavasani: Um. [00:39:00] I think we're a year into this administration and these two announcements are, are pretty huge considering, um, you know, the, we, there are known people within domestic policy council that don't, aren't necessarily supportive of psychedelic medicine. So there's a really amazing progress here, and frustrating as it might be to, um, just be waiting for this administration to make some major move. Melissa Lavasani: I think they are making major moves like for Washington, DC These, these are major moves and we just gotta figure out how we can, um, take these initiatives and apply them to the issue of psychedelic medicines. Joe Moore: Thanks, Melissa. Um, yeah, it is, it is interesting like the amount of fervor there was at the beginning. You know, we had, uh. Kind of one of my old lawyers, Matt Zorn, jumped in with the administration. Right. And, um, you know, it was, uh, really cool to [00:40:00] see and hopeful how much energy was going on. It's been a little quiet, kind of feels like a black box a little bit, but I, you know, there was, Melissa Lavasani: that's on me. Melissa Lavasani: Maybe I, we need to be more out in public about like, what's actually happening, because I feel like, like day in and day out, it's just been, you gotta just mm-hmm. Like have that constant beat with the government. Mm-hmm. And, um, it's, it's, it's not the photo ops on the hill, it's the conversations that you have. Melissa Lavasani: It's the dinner parties you go to, it's the fundraisers you attend, you know? Mm-hmm. That's why I, I kind of have to like toot my own horn with PCs. Like, we need to be present here at, at not only on the Hill, not only at the White House, but kind of in the ecosystem of Washington DC itself. There's, it's, there are like power players here. Melissa Lavasani: There are people that are connected that can get things done, like. I mean, the other last week we had a big snow storm. I walked over to my friend's house, um, to have like a little fire sesh with them and our kids, and his next door neighbor came over. He was a member of Congress. I talked about the VA bills, like [00:41:00] we're reaching out to his office now, um, to get them, um, up to speed and hopefully get their co-sponsorship for, uh, the two VA bills. Melissa Lavasani: So, I mean, it, the little conversations you have here are just as important as the big ones with the photo ops. So, um, it, it's, it's really like, you know, building up that momentum and, and finding that time where you can really strike and make something happen. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jay, anything to add there? Jay Kopelman: Yeah, I was just gonna say that, you know, I, I, I think the fervor is still there, right? Jay Kopelman: But real life happens. Melissa Lavasani: Yes, Jay Kopelman: yes. And gets in the way, right? So, Melissa Lavasani: yeah, Jay Kopelman: I, I can't imagine how many issues. Secretary Kennedy has every day much less the president. Like there's so many things that they are dealing with on a daily basis, right? It, we, we just have to work to be the squeaky wheel in, in the right way, right. Jay Kopelman: [00:42:00] With the, with the right information at the right time. Like just inundating one of these organizations with noise, it's then it be with Informa, it just becomes noise, right? It it, it doesn't help. So when we have things to say that are meaningful and impactful, we do, and Melissa does an amazing job of that. Jay Kopelman: But, you know, it, it takes time. You know, it's, you know, we're not, this is, this is like turning an aircraft carrier, not a ski boat. Melissa Lavasani: Yeah, Joe Moore: yeah, absolutely. Um, and. It's, it's understandably frustrating, I think for the public and the psychedelic public in particular because we see all this hope, you know, we continue to get frustrated at politics. It's nothing new, right? Um, and we, we wanna see more people get well immediately. [00:43:00] And I, I kind of, Jay from the veteran perspective, I do love the kind of loud voices like, you're making me go to Mexico for this. Joe Moore: I did that and you're making me leave the country for the thing that's gonna fix me. Like, no way. And barely a recognition that this is a valid treatment. You know, like, you know, that is complicated given how medicine is structured here domestically. But it's also, let's face the facts, like the drug war kind of prevented us from being able to do this research in the first place. Joe Moore: You know? Thanks Nixon. And like, how do we actually kind of correct course and say like, we need to spend appropriately on science here so we can heal our own people, including veterans and everybody really. It's a, it's a dire situation out there. Jay Kopelman: Yeah. It, it really is. Um, you know, we were talking briefly about addicts, right? Jay Kopelman: And you know, it's not sexy. People think of addicts as people who are weak-minded, [00:44:00] right? They don't have any self-control. Um, but, but look at, look at the opioid crisis, right? That Brian Hubbard was fighting against in Kentucky for all those years. That that was something that was given to the patient by a doctor that they then became dependent on, and a lot of people died from that. Jay Kopelman: And, and so you, you know, it's, I I don't think it's fair to just put all addicts in a box. Just like it's not fair to put all veterans in a box. Just like it's not fair for doctors, put all their patients in a box. We're individuals. We, we have individual needs. Our, our health is very individual. Like, I, I don't think I should be put in the same box as every other 66-year-old that my doctor sees. Jay Kopelman: It's not fair. [00:45:00] You know, if you, if you took my high school classmates and put us all in a photo, we're all gonna have different needs, right? Like, some look like they're 76, not 66. Some look like they're 56. Not like they're, we, we do things differently. We live our lives differently. And the same is true of addicts. Jay Kopelman: They come to addiction from different places. Not everybody decides they want to just try heroin at a party, and all of a sudden they're addicted. It happens in, in different ways, you know, and the whole fentanyl thing has been so daggum nefarious, right? You know, pushing fentanyl into marijuana. Jay Kopelman: Somebody's smoking a joint and all of a sudden they're addicted to fentanyl or they die. Melissa Lavasani: I think we're having a, Jay Kopelman: it's, it's just not fair to, to say everybody in this pot is the same, or everybody in this one is the same. We have [00:46:00] to look at it differently. Joe Moore: Yeah. I like to zoom one level out and kind of talk about, um, just how hurt we are as a country, as a world really, but as a country specifically, and how many people are out of work for so many. Joe Moore: Difficult reasons and away from their families for so many kind of tragic reasons. And if we can get people back to their families and back to work, a lot of these things start to self-correct, but we have to like have those interventions where we can heal folks and, and get them back. Um, yeah. And you know, everything from trauma, uh, in childhood, you know, adulthood, combat, whatever it is. Joe Moore: Like these things can put people on the sidelines. And Jay, to your point, like you get knee surgery and all of a sudden you're, you know, two years later you're on the hunt for Fentanyl daily. You know, that's tough. It's really tough. Carl Hart does a good job talking about this kind of addiction pipeline and [00:47:00] a few others do as well. Joe Moore: But it's just, you know, kind of putting it in a moral failure bucket. It's not great. I was chatting with somebody about, um, veterans, it's like you come back and you're like, what's gonna make me feel okay right now? And it's not always alcohol. Um, like this is the first thing that made me feel okay, because there's not great treatments and there's, there's a lot of improvements in this kind of like bringing people back from the field that needs to happen. Joe Moore: In my opinion. I, it seems to be shared by a lot of people, but yeah, there's, it's, it's, IGA is gonna be great. It's gonna be really important. I really can't wait for it to be at scale appropriately, but there's a lot of other things we need to fix too, um, so that we can just, you know, not have so many people we need to, you know, spend so much money healing. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Jay Kopelman: Yeah. You ahead with that. We don't need the president to sign an executive order to automatically legalize Ibogaine. Right. But it would be nice if he would reschedule it so that [00:48:00] then then researchers could do this research on a larger scale. You know, we could, we could now get some real data that would show the efficacy. Jay Kopelman: And it could be done in a safe environment, you know? And, and so that would be, do Joe Moore: you have any kind of figures, like, like, I've been talking about this for a while, Jay. Like, does it drop the cost a lot of doing research when we deschedule things? Jay Kopelman: I, I would imagine so, because it'll drop the cost of accessing the medicines that are being researched. Jay Kopelman: Right? You, you would have buy-in from more organizations. You know, you might even have a pharma company that comes into this, you know, look at j and j with the ketamine, right? They have, they have a nasal spray version of ketamine that's doing very well. I mean, it's probably their, their biggest revenue [00:49:00] provider for them right now. Jay Kopelman: And, and so. You know, you, it would certainly help and I think, I think it would lower costs of research to have something rescheduled rather than being schedule one. You know it, people are afraid to take chances when you're talking about Schedule one Melissa Lavasani: labs or they just don't have the money to research things that are on Schedule one. Melissa Lavasani: 'cause there's so much in an incredible amount of red tape that you have to go through and, and your facility has to be a certain way and how you contain those, uh, medicines. Oh, researching has to be in a specific container and it's just very cumbersome to research schedule one drugs. So absolutely the cost would go down. Melissa Lavasani: Um, but Joe Moore: yeah, absolutely. Less safes. Melissa Lavasani: Yeah. Joe Moore: Yes. Less uh, Melissa Lavasani: right. Joe Moore: Locked. Yeah. Um, it'll be really interesting when that happens. I'm gonna hold out faith. That we can see some [00:50:00] movement here. Um, because yeah, like why make healing more expensive than it needs to be? I think like that's potentially a protectionist move. Joe Moore: Like, I'm not, I'm not here yet, but, um, look at AbbVie's, uh, acquisition of the Gilgamesh ip. Mm-hmm. Like that's a really interesting move. I think it was $1.2 billion. Mm-hmm. So they're gonna wanna protect that investment. Um, and it's likely going to be an approved medication. Like, I don't, I don't see a world in which it's not an approved medication. Joe Moore: Um, you know, I don't know a timeline, I would say Jay Kopelman: yeah. Joe Moore: Less than six years, just given how much cash they've got. But who knows, like, I haven't followed it too closely. So, and that's an I bga derivative to be clear, everybody, um mm-hmm. If you're not, um, in, in the loop on that, which is hopeful, you know? Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. But I don't know what the efficacy is gonna be with that compared to Ibogaine and then we have to talk about the kind of proprietary molecule stuff. Um, there's like a whole bunch of things that are gonna go on here, and this is one of the reasons why I'm excited about. Federal involvement [00:51:00] because we might actually be able to have some sort of centralized manufacturer, um, or at least the VA could license three or four generic manufacturers per for instance, and that way prices aren't gonna be, you know, eight grand a dose or whatever. Joe Moore: You know, it's, Jay Kopelman: well, I think it's a very exciting time in the space. You know, I, I think that there's the opportunity for innovation. There is the opportunity for collaboration. There's the opportunity for, you know, long-term healing at a very low cost. You know, that we, we have the highest healthcare cost per capita in the world right here in the us. Jay Kopelman: And, and yet we are not the number one health system in the world. So to me, that doesn't add up. So we need to figure out a way to start. Bringing costs down for a lot of people and [00:52:00] at the same time increasing, increasing outcomes. Joe Moore: Absolutely. Yeah. There's a lot of possible outcome improvements here and, and you know, everything from relapse rates, like we hear often about people leaving a clinic and they go and overdose when they get home. Tragically, too common. I think there's everything from, you know, I'm Jay, I'm involved in an organization called the Psychedelics and Pain Association. Joe Moore: We look at chronic pain very seriously, and IGA is something we are really interested in. And if. We could have better, you know, research, there better outcome measures there. Um, you know, perhaps we can have less people on opioids to begin with from chronic pain conditions. Um, Jay Kopelman: yeah, I, I might be due for another Ibogaine journey then, because I deal with chronic pain from Jiujitsu, but, Joe Moore: oh gosh, let's Jay Kopelman: talk Joe Moore: later. Jay Kopelman: That's self inflicted. Some people would say take a month off, but Melissa Lavasani: yeah, Jay Kopelman: I'm [00:53:00] not, I'm not that smart. Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, but you know, this, uh, yeah, this whole thing is gonna be really interesting to see how it plays out. I'm endlessly hopeful pull because I'm still here. Right. I, I've been at this for almost 10 years now, very publicly, and I think we are seeing a lot of movement. Joe Moore: It's not always what we actually wanna see, but it is movement nonetheless. You know, how many people are writing on this now than there were before? Right. You know, we, we have people in New York Times writing somewhat regularly about psychedelics and. Even international media is covering it. What do we have legalization in Australia somewhat recently for psilocybin and MDMA, Czech Republic. Joe Moore: I think Germany made some moves recently. Mm-hmm. Um, really interesting to see how this is gonna just keep shifting. Um Jay Kopelman: mm-hmm. Joe Moore: And I think there's no way that we're not gonna have prescription psychedelics in three years in the United States. It pro probably more like a [00:54:00] year and a half. I don't know. Do you, are you all taking odds? Melissa Lavasani: Yeah. I mean, I think Jay Kopelman: I, I gotta check Cal sheet, see what they're saying. Melissa Lavasani: I think it's safe to say, I mean, this could even come potentially the end of this year, I think, but definitely by the end of 2027, there's gonna be at least one psychedelic that's FDA approved. Joe Moore: Yeah. Yeah. Melissa Lavasani: If you're not counting Ketamine. Joe Moore: Right. Jay Kopelman: I, I mean, I mean it mm-hmm. It, it doesn't make sense that it. Shouldn't be or wouldn't be. Right. The, we've seen the benefits. Mm-hmm. We know what they are. It's at a very low cost, but you have to keep in mind that these things, they need to be done with the right set setting and container. Right. And, and gotta be able to provide that environment. Jay Kopelman: So, but I would, I would love, like I said, I'd love to work myself out of a job here and see this happen, not just for our veterans, [00:55:00] but for everybody. Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Um, so Melissa, is there a way people can get involved or follow PMC or how can they support your work at PMC? Melissa Lavasani: Yeah, I mean, follow us in social media. Melissa Lavasani: Um, our two biggest platforms are LinkedIn and Instagram. Um, I'm bringing my newsletter back because I'm realizing, um, you know, there is a big gap in, in kind of like the knowledge of Washington DC just in general. What's happening here, and I think, you know, part of PC's value is that we're, we are plugged into conversations that are being had, um, here in the city. Melissa Lavasani: And, you know, we do get a little insight. Um, and I think that that would really quiet a lot of, you know, the, a lot of noise that, um, exists in the, our ecosystem. If, if people just had some clarity on like, what's actually happening or happening here and what are the opportunities and, [00:56:00] um, where do we need more reinforcement? Melissa Lavasani: Um, and, and also, you know, as we're putting together public education campaign, you know. My, like, if I could get everything I wanted like that, that campaign would be this like multi-stakeholder collaborative effort, right? Where we're covering all the ground that we need to cover. We're talking to the patient groups, we're talking to traditional mental health organizations, we're talking to the medical community, we're talking to the general population. Melissa Lavasani: I think that's like another area that we, we just seem to be, um, lacking some effort in. And, you know, ultimately the veteran story's always super compelling. It pulls on your heartstrings. These are our heroes, um, of our country. Like that, that is, that is meaningful. But a lot of the veteran population is small and we need the, like a, the just.[00:57:00] Melissa Lavasani: Basic American living in middle America, um, understanding what psychedelics are so that in, in, in presenting to them the stories that they can relate to, um, because that's how you activate the public and you activate the public and you get them to see what's happening in these clinical trials, what the data's been saying, what the opportunities are with psychedelics, and then they start calling their members of Congress and saying, Hey, there is this. Melissa Lavasani: Bill sitting in Congress and why haven't you signed onto it? And that political pressure, uh, when used the right way can be really powerful. So, um, I think, you know, now we're at this really amazing moment where we have a good amount of congressional offices that are familiar enough with psychedelics that they're willing to move on it. Melissa Lavasani: Um, there's another larger group, uh, that is familiar with psychedelics and will assist and co-sponsor legislation, but there's still so many offices that we haven't been able to get to just 'cause like we don't have all the time in the world and all the manpower in the world to [00:58:00] do it. But, you know, that is one avenue is like the advocates can speak to the, the lawmakers, the experts speak to the lawmakers, and we not, we want the public engaged in this, you know, ultimately, like that's. Melissa Lavasani: Like the best form of harm reduction is having an informed public. So we are not, they're not seeing these media headlines of like, oh, this miracle cure that, um, saved my family. It's like, yes, that can happen psychedelics. I mean, person speaking personally, psychedelics did save my family. But what you miss out of that story is the incredible amount of work I put into myself and put into my mental health to this day to maintain, um, like myself, my, my own agency and like be the parent that I wanna be and be the spouse that I wanna be. Melissa Lavasani: So, um, we, we need to continue to share these stories and we need to continue to collaborate to get this message out because we're all, we're all in the same boat right now. We all want the same things. We want patients to have safe and [00:59:00] affordable access to psychedelic assisted care. Um, and, uh. We're just in the beginning here, so, um, sign up for our newsletter and we can sign up on our website and then follow us on social media. Melissa Lavasani: And, um, I anticipate more and more events, um, happening with PMC and hopefully we can scale up some of these events to be much more public facing, um, as this issue grows. So, um, I'm really excited about the future and I'm, I've been enjoying this partnership with Mission Within. Jay is such a professional and, and it really shows up when he needs to show up and, um, I look forward to more of that in the future. Joe Moore: Fantastic. And Jay, how can people follow along and support mission within Foundation? Jay Kopelman: Yeah, again, social media is gonna be a good way to do that. So we, we are also pretty heavily engaged on LinkedIn and on Instagram. Um, I do [01:00:00] share, uh, a bit of my own stuff as well. On social media. So we have social media pages for Mission within Foundation, and we have a LinkedIn page for mission within foundation. Jay Kopelman: I have my own profiles on both of those as well where people can follow along. Um, one of the other things you know that would probably help get more attention for this is if the general public was more aware of the numbers of professional athletes who are also now pursuing. I began specifically to help treat their traumatic brain injuries and the chronic traumatic encephalopathy that they've, uh, suffered as a result of their time in professional sports or even college sports. Jay Kopelman: And, you know. I people worship these athletes, and I [01:01:00] think that if more of them, like Robert Gall, were more outspoken about these treatments and the healing properties that they've provided them, that it would get even more attention. Um, I think though what Melissa said, you know, I don't wanna parrot anything she just said because she said it perfectly Right. Jay Kopelman: And I'd just be speaking to hear myself talk. Um, but being collaborative the way that we are with PMC and with Melissa is I think, the way to move the needle on this overall. And like she said, if she could get more groups involved in, in these discussions, it would, it would do wonders for us. Joe Moore: Well, thank you both so much for your hard work out there. I always appreciate it when people are showing up and doing this important, [01:02:00] sometimes boring and tedious, but nevertheless sometimes, sometimes exciting work. And um, so yeah, just thank you both and thank you both for showing up here to psychedelics today to join us and I hope we can continue to support you all in the future. Jay Kopelman: Thank you, Joe. Thank you, Joe. It's a pleasure being with you today and with Melissa, of course, always Melissa Lavasani: appreciate the time and space. Joe Moore: Thanks.  
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  PT 648 - Enamory - Couples Therapy with Ketamine 10.02.2026 1t 23min

  Enamory is a clinical practice, training institute, and nonprofit research organization focused on psychedelic assisted couples therapy. In this episode, clinical psychologists Chandra Kian and Kayla Knopp discuss their work integrating ketamine assisted psychotherapy with evidence based couples therapy models. Both guests trained as academic researchers at the University of California San Diego Veterans Affairs system, where they worked on large scale couples based PTSD trials. They later co founded Enamory to continue clinical work, train therapists, and conduct research focused specifically on relationships. Early Themes in Enamory and Couples Therapy The conversation begins with Dr. Kian and Dr. Knopp describing their background in couples based PTSD research and how that work shaped their clinical approach. They explain how existing couples therapy models often stall when partners cannot soften, access vulnerability, or understand each other's internal experience. Their early exposure to MDMA assisted therapy research highlighted how psychedelic states can temporarily reduce defensiveness and rigid narratives.
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  PT 647 - Joshua White: Fireside Project and Lucy, an AI Training Simulator for Psychedelic Support 22.01.2026 1t 11min

  Fireside Project is a nonprofit that helps reduce the risks of psychedelic experiences through a free support line, coaching, education, and research. In this episode, Joshua White speaks with Psychedelics Today about why real-time support matters, what it takes to run a national hotline, and what Fireside learned after more than 30,000 conversations since launch. White shares how his background as a lawyer and his early hotline volunteering shaped Fireside's model. He also describes how festival harm reduction work, including lessons from Zendo-style support spaces, revealed a major gap: people often need help during an experience and after it ends. A major focus of the conversation is Lucy, Fireside's new voice-to-voice role-play simulator designed to improve psychedelic support skills through low-stakes practice. Early Themes With Fireside Project Joshua White introduces Fireside Project as an accessible safety net for people who are actively having psychedelic experiences or processing past ones. The support line launched on April 14, 2021, and relies on trained community volunteers who commit to a year of service. White explains why anonymity matters. He argues that a phone-based container can make it easier for callers to share vulnerable material without fear of judgment. He also frames service as a key part of integration for volunteers who want to give back or prepare for work in the psychedelic field. Core Insights From Fireside Project White describes the early difficulty of building Fireside from scratch, including legal design, insurance hurdles, training development, and fundraising. He credits seed support from David Bronner and Dr. Bronner's for helping Fireside prove that people would actually use a psychedelic support line. He also explains a key harm reduction point: calling emergency services during a non-medical psychedelic crisis can escalate risk. Fireside aims to help people regulate, re-orient, and stay safer when panic or fear shows up. Key concepts discussed include: The thin line between healing and traumatizing during high-intensity psychedelic states Why callers often need connection, not rescue How volunteer capacity and call volume shape how long conversations run The difference between support during an experience and longer-term coaching support Later Discussion and Takeaways With Fireside Project The conversation then turns to Lucy, a training tool White describes as a "flight simulator" for psychedelic practitioners. Lucy is not part of the live support line. Instead, it offers emotionally responsive role-play scenarios so trainees can practice staying grounded, tracking consent and boundaries, and responding to crisis cues. White also addresses recording and consent. He argues Fireside needs strong training feedback loops to improve safety and quality. He describes an anonymization approach designed to remove phone numbers, strip identifying details, and distort voices while preserving emotional tone. He also explains the post-call option for callers to delete their recorded conversation. Practical takeaways include: Simulation can help trainees stay regulated when intense material emerges Better training can reduce unnecessary diversion to emergency rooms Clear consent language and easy deletion workflows matter for trust Coaching can expand the continuum of psychedelic support beyond therapy  
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  PT 646 - Manvir Singh: Shamanism the Timeless Religion 06.01.2026 1t 8min

  Manvir Singh joins Psychedelics Today to unpack what shamanism means and why the term matters now. Singh is an anthropologist and author of Shamanism: The Timeless Religion. He argues that shamanism is not limited to "remote" societies or the past. Instead, it reliably reappears because it helps humans manage uncertainty, illness, and the unknown. This episode is relevant for the psychedelic community because "shaman" often gets used loosely, or avoided entirely. Singh offers a clear framework for talking about shamanic practice without leaning on romantic myths, drug-centered assumptions, or rigid definitions that do not fit the cross-cultural record. Early Themes With Manvir Singh Early in the conversation, Manvir Singh explains why many classic definitions of shamanism break down when tested across cultures, including in Siberia where the term originated. He discusses how popular images of shamanism often center "soul flight" and fixed cosmologies. However, ethnography shows more variation, including possession, spirit proximity, and different ways practitioners describe altered experience. Singh also traces his path into anthropology, including long-term fieldwork with the Mentawai people off the west coast of Sumatra. There, he studied ritual specialists known as kerei and saw how central they are to healing, ceremony, and community life. Core Insights From Manvir Singh At the center of the episode, Manvir Singh offers a practical three-part definition. He emphasizes these shared traits as the "beating heart" of shamanism across many settings: A non-ordinary state (trance, ecstasy, or another altered mode) Engagement with unseen beings or realities (spirits, gods, ancestors, witches, ghosts) Services such as healing and divination Singh also explores taboo, restriction, and "otherness." He explains how shamans often cultivate social and psychological distance through initiations, deprivation, and visible markers. This helps communities experience the practitioner as different in kind, which increases credibility when the practitioner claims access to hidden forces. Later Discussion and Takeaways With Manvir Singh Later, Manvir Singh challenges common psychedelic narratives that treat psychedelics as the universal engine of religion or shamanism. He notes that many shamanic traditions do not rely on psychedelics at all, and that rhythmic music, drumming, dance, and social ritual can reliably produce trance states. He also clarifies a key mismatch in many contemporary "ayahuasca tourism" settings: in many traditional contexts, the specialist takes the substance to work on behalf of the patient, rather than turning the participant into the primary visionary practitioner. Practical takeaways for the psychedelic field include: Use definitions that fit cross-cultural evidence, not marketing language. Avoid assuming psychedelics are required for mystical experience. Notice how authority gets built through ritual, training, and otherness, not only through pharmacology.
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  PT 645 - Oli Genn-Bash: Functional Mushrooms, Hype Cycles, and Mycelial Thinking 28.12.2025 1t 14min

  Oli Genn-Bash (Brighton, UK) joins Joe Moore for a grounded conversation on the boom in functional mushrooms and why the category may be moving too quickly. As the founder of The Fungi Consultant, Oli works with consumers and brands to demystify functional mushrooms, with a focus on education, traceability, and realistic expectations. The conversation begins with a critique of wellness hype cycles. Oli explains how consumer desperation for help with anxiety, sleep, stress, and cognition can create an opening for a rapid wave of products that are not always grounded in careful sourcing or clear science. Using lion's mane as a case study, he contrasts popular cognitive claims with traditional use, arguing that the most useful path forward is to slow down, get more literate about mechanisms, and build a market that can sustain trust over time. Systems and Culture Oli describes how individual health is inseparable from community realities, including food access, class dynamics, and what wellness advice can sound like when it lands from a place of privilege. They discuss mycelial thinking as a practical framework for collaboration and resource-sharing, and why mushrooms tend to attract unusually generous "teach everyone" communities. They also explore the role of mushrooms in meaning-making and consciousness. Oli shares personal reflections on mushrooms as allies, the felt sense of "agency" in psychedelic experiences, and how those experiences can encourage behavioral change without forcing it. The conversation touches on alcohol culture in the UK and the possibility of non-alcoholic alternatives, including how functional mushrooms, microdosing, and other botanicals can support social confidence and energy for some people. Finally, they look ahead at fungal innovation beyond supplements: materials, soil health, regenerative approaches, bioremediation, and what the broader psychedelic movement might learn from fungi's patience, symbiosis, and balance. Key themes and takeaways 1) Why functional mushrooms feel "too fast" right now Oli argues that functional mushrooms have accelerated into a high-pressure wellness marketplace, with brands rushing products to market and consumers struggling to determine what is legitimate, traceable, and effective. He draws parallels to the UK CBD market, describing how oversaturation and inconsistent quality can erode trust and collapse prices. 2) Lion's mane, tradition, and mechanism Lion's mane is a useful example of how modern marketing can outrun nuance. Oli notes the gap between popular cognitive claims and traditional use, and points toward the gut-brain axis as one plausible bridge that requires more careful explanation and patience. 3) "Functional mushrooms" as a frame Oli prefers the term functional mushrooms over medicinal mushrooms, emphasizing systems-level support rather than a pharmaceutical model. He describes a view of health that starts on the cellular level and asks what supports function, resilience, and prevention. 4) Health is individual and collective Oli speaks candidly about barriers to wellness in the UK, including food poverty, access to education about cooking, and how class dynamics shape what health messaging sounds like. The broader point is structural: it is difficult to talk about supplements without considering the baseline conditions of daily life. 5) Mycelial thinking, futures work, and collaboration The conversation highlights "mycelial thinking" as more than a metaphor. Oli describes collaborations in futures-oriented communities and how fungal logic can inform collaboration, non-zero-sum outcomes, and resource sharing. 6) Mushroom culture and the instinct to share Joe notes how strikingly generous mushroom communities can be, especially around cultivation and identification. Oli agrees and adds a provocative angle: the possibility of "agency" in fungi and a sense that mushrooms invite humans into relationship, curiosity, and participation. 7) Alcohol culture and alternatives Oli reflects on nearly three years without alcohol and describes how functional mushrooms and other botanicals can support mood, energy, and social confidence for some people. They also discuss the realities of events culture, including the need for more inclusive non-alcoholic options and sensitivity to addiction histories. 8) The next 10 years of fungi They look at the expansion of fungi into materials, fashion, regenerative agriculture, soil health, and bioremediation. Oli emphasizes balance: fungal innovations are promising, but scaling and real-world constraints matter. 9) What the psychedelic movement can learn from fungi Oli critiques extractive, capital-driven dynamics in the psychedelic ecosystem and suggests fungi offer a different ethic: patience, humility, symbiosis, and realism about parasitism and imbalance.
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  PT 644 - Tricia Eastman: Seeding Consciousness, Ancestral Wisdom, and Psychedelic Initiation 22.12.2025 1t 13min

  In this live episode, Tricia Eastman joins to discuss Seeding Consciousness: Plant Medicine, Ancestral Wisdom, Psychedelic Initiation. She explains why many Indigenous initiatory systems begin with consultation and careful assessment of the person, often using divination and lineage-based diagnostic methods before anyone enters ceremony. Eastman contrasts that with modern frameworks that can move fast, rely on short trainings, or treat the medicine as a stand-alone intervention. Early Themes: Ritual, Preparation, and the Loss of Container Eastman describes her background, including ancestral roots in Mexico and her later work at Crossroads Ibogaine in Mexico, where she supported early ibogaine work with veterans. She frames her broader work as cultural bridging that seeks respect rather than fetishization, and assimilation into modern context rather than appropriation. Early discussion focuses on: Why initiatory traditions emphasize purification, preparation, and long timelines Why consultation matters before any high-intensity medicine work How decades of training shaped traditional initiation roles Why people can get harmed when they treat medicine as plug and play Core Insights: Alchemy, Shadow, and Doing the Work A major throughline is Eastman's critique of the belief that a psychedelic alone will erase trauma. She argues that shadow work remains part of the human condition, and that healing is less about a one-time fix and more about building capacity for relationship with the unconscious. Using alchemical language, she describes "nigredo" as fuel for the creative process, not as something to eliminate forever. Key insights include: Psychedelics are tools, not saviors You cannot outsource responsibility to a pill, a modality, or a facilitator Progress requires practice, discipline, and honest engagement with what arises "Healing" often shows up as obstacles encountered while trying to live and create Later Discussion and Takeaways: Iboga, Ethics, and Biocultural Stewardship Joe and Tricia move into a practical and ethically complex discussion about iboga supply chains, demand pressure, and the risks of amplifying interest without matching it with harm reduction and reciprocity. Eastman emphasizes medical screening, responsible messaging, and supporting Indigenous-led stewardship efforts. She also warns that harm can come from both under-trained modern facilitators and irresponsible people claiming traditional legitimacy. Concrete takeaways include: Treat iboga and ibogaine as high-responsibility work that demands safety protocols Avoid casual marketing that encourages risky self-administration Support Indigenous-led biocultural stewardship and reciprocity efforts Give lineage carriers a meaningful seat at the table in modern policy and clinical conversations Frequently Asked Questions Who is Tricia Eastman? Tricia Eastman is an author, facilitator, and founder of Ancestral Heart. Her work focuses on cultural bridging, initiation frameworks, and Indigenous-led stewardship. What is Seeding Consciousness about? The book examines plant medicine through initiatory traditions, emphasizing consultation, ritual, preparation, and integration rather than reductionistic models. Why does Tricia Eastman critique modern psychedelic models? She argues that many models remove the ritual container and long-form preparation that reduce risk and support deeper integration. Is iboga or ibogaine safe? With the right oversite, yes. Eastman stresses that safety depends on cardiac screening, careful protocols, and experienced oversight. She warns against informal or self-guided use. How can people support reciprocity and stewardship? She encourages donating or supporting Indigenous-led biocultural stewardship initiatives like Ancestral Heart and aligning public messaging with harm reduction. Closing Thoughts This episode makes a clear case that Tricia Eastman Seeding Consciousness is not only a book about psychedelics, but a critique of how the field is developing. Eastman argues that a successful future depends on mature containers, serious safety culture, and respectful partnership with lineage carriers, especially as interest in iboga and ibogaine accelerates. Links https://www.ancestralheart.com https://www.innertraditions.com/author/tricia-eastman Transcript Joe Moore Hello, everybody. Welcome back. Joe Moore with you again from Psychedelics Today, joined today by Tricia Eastman. Tricia, you just wrote a book called Seeding Consciousness. We're going to get into that a bunch today, but how are you today? [00:00:16.07] - Tricia Eastman I'm so good. It's exciting to be live. A lot of the podcasts I do are offline, and so it's like we're being witnessed and feels like just can feel the energy behind It's great. [00:00:31.11] - Joe Moore It's fun. It's a totally different energy than maybe this will come out in four months. This is real, and there's people all over the world watching in real-time. And we'll get some comments. So folks, if you're listening, please leave us some comments. And we'd love to chat a little bit later about those. [00:00:49.23] - Tricia Eastman I'm going to join the chat so that I can see... Wait, I just want to make sure I'm able to see the comments, too. Do I hit join the chat? [00:01:01.17] - Joe Moore Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. I can throw comments on the screen so we can see them together. [00:01:07.02] - Tricia Eastman Cool. [00:01:08.03] - Joe Moore Yeah. So it'll be fun. Give us comments, people. Please, please, please, please. Yeah, you're all good. So Tricia, I want to chat about your book. Tell us high level about your book, and then we're going to start digging into you. [00:01:22.10] - Tricia Eastman So Seeding Consciousness is the title, and I know it's a long subtitled Plant Medicine, Ancestral Wisdom, Psychedelic Initiation. And I felt like it was absolutely necessary for the times that we are in right now. When I was in Gabon in 2018, in one of my many initiations, as as an initiative, the Fung lineage of Buiti, which I've been practicing in for 11 years now, I was given the instructions. I was given the integration homework to write this book. And I would say I don't see that as this divine thing, like you were given the assignment. I think I was given the assignment because it's hard as F to write a book. I mean, it really tests you on so many levels. I mean, even just thinking about putting yourself out there from a legal perspective, and then also, does it make any sense? Will anyone buy it? And on Honestly, it's not me. It's really what I was given to write, but it's based on my experience working with several thousand people over the years. And really, the essence of it is that in our society, we've taken this reductionistic approach in psychedelics, where we've really taken out the ritual. [00:02:54.05] - Tricia Eastman Even now with the FDA trial for MDMA for PTSD. There's even conversations with a lot of companies that are moving forward, psychedelics, through the FDA process, through that pathway, that are talking about taking the therapy out. And the reality is that in these ancient initiatic traditions, they were very long, drawn out experiences with massive purification rituals, massive amounts of different types of practice in order to prepare oneself to meet the medicine. Different plants were taken, like vomatifs and different types of purification rituals were performed. And then you would go into this profound initiatic experience because the people that were working with you that were in, we call it the Nema, who gives initiations, had decades of training and experience doing these types of initiatic experiences. So if you compare that to the modern day framework, we have people that go online and get a certificate and start serving people medicine or do it in a context where maybe there isn't even an established container or facilitator whatsoever. And so really, the idea is, how can we take the essence of this ancient wisdom wisdom, like when you look at initiation, the first step is consultation, which is really going deep into the history of the individual using different types of techniques that are Indigenous technologies, such as different forms of divination, such as cowrie shell readings. [00:04:52.18] - Tricia Eastman And there's different types of specific divinations that are done in different branches of And before one individual would even go into any initiation, you need to understand the person and where they're coming from. So it's really about that breakdown of all of that, and how can we integrate elements of that into a more modern framework. [00:05:24.23] - Joe Moore Brilliant. All right. Well, thank you for that. And let's chat about you. You've got a really interesting past, very dynamic, could even call it multicultural. And you've got a lot of experience that informed this book. So how did this stuff come forward for you? [00:05:50.02] - Tricia Eastman I mean, I've never been the person to seek anything. My family on my mother's side is from Mexico, from Oaxaca, Trique, Mixtec, and Michica. And we had a long lineage of practice going back to my, at least I know from my great, great grandmother, practicing a blend of mestiza, shamanism, combining centerea and Catholicism together. So it's more of like a syncratic mestiza, mestiza being mixed tradition. And so I found it really interesting because later on, when my grandfather came to the United States, he ended up joining the military. And in being in the US, he didn't really have a place. He's very devout spiritual man, but he didn't have a place to practice this blended spiritual tradition. So the mystical aspect of it went behind. And as I started reconnecting to my ancestral lineage, this came forth that I was really starting to understand the mystical aspect of my ancestry. And interestingly, at the same time, was asked to work at Crossroads Abigain in Mexico. And it's so interesting to see that Mexico has been this melting pot and has been the place where Abigain has chosen to plant its roots, so to say, and has treated thousands of veterans. [00:07:36.28] - Tricia Eastman I got to be part of the group of facilitators back over 10 years ago. We treated the first Navy Seals with Abogaine, and that's really spurred a major interest in Abogaine. Now it's in every headline. I also got 10 I got initiated into the Fung lineage of Buiti and have really studied the traditional knowledge. I created a nonprofit back in 2019 called Ancestral Heart, which is really focused on Indigenous-led stewardship. Really, the book helps as a culmination of the decade of real-world experience of combining My husband, Dr. Joseph Barzulia. He's a psychologist. He's also a pretty well-known published researcher in Abigain and 5MEO-DMT, but also deeply spiritual and deeply in respect for the Indigenous traditions that have carried these medicines before us. So we've really been walking this complex path of world bridging between how we establish these relationships and how we bring some of these ancient knowledge systems back into the forefront, but not in a way of fetishizing them, but in a way of deeply respecting them and what we can learn, but from our own assimilation and context versus appropriation. So really, I think the body of my work is around that cultural bridging. [00:09:31.07] - Joe Moore That's brilliant. And yeah, there's some really fun stuff I learned in the book so far that I want to get into later. But next question is, who is your intended audience here? Because this is an interesting book that could hit a few categories, but I'm curious to hear from you. [00:09:49.02] - Tricia Eastman It's so funny because when I wrote the book, I wasn't thinking, oh, what's my marketing plan? What's my pitch? Who's my intended audience? Because it was my homework, and I knew I needed to write the book, and maybe that was problematic in the sense that I had to go to publishers and have a proposal. And then I had to create a formula in hindsight. And I would say the demographic of the book mirrors the demographic of where people are in the psychedelic space, which It's skewed slightly more male, although very female. I think sex isn't necessarily important when we're thinking about the level of trauma and the level of spiritual healing and this huge deficit that we have in mental health, which is really around our disconnection from our true selves, from our heart, from our souls, from this idea of of what Indigenous knowledge systems call us the sacred. It's really more of an attitude of care and presence. I'm sure we could give it a different name so that individuals don't necessarily have any guard up because we have so much negative conditioning related to the American history of religion, which a lot of people have rejected, and some have gone back to. [00:11:37.06] - Tricia Eastman But I think we need to separate it outside of that. I would say the demographic is really this group of I would say anywhere from 30 to 55 male females that are really in this space where maybe they're doing some of the wellness stuff. They're starting to figure some things out, but it's just not getting them there. And when something happens in life, for example, COVID-19 would be a really great example. It knocks them off course, and they just don't have the tools to find that connection. And I would say it even spans across people that do a lot of spiritual practice and maybe are interested in what psychedelics can do in addition to those practices. Because when we look at my view on psychedelics, is they fit within a whole spectrum of wellness and self-care and any lineage of spiritual practice, whether it's yoga or Sufism or Daoist tradition. But they aren't necessarily the thing that... I think there's an over focus on the actual substance itself and putting it on a pedestal that I think is problematic in our society because it goes back to our religious context in the West is primarily exoteric, meaning that we're seeking something outside of ourselves to fulfill ourselves. [00:13:30.29] - Tricia Eastman And so I think that when we look at psychedelic medicines as this exoteric thing versus when we look at initiatory traditions are about inward and direct experience. And all of these spiritual practices and all of these modalities are really designed to pull you back into yourself, into having a direct relationship with yourself and direct experience. And I feel like the minute that you are able to forge that connection, which takes practice and takes discipline, then you don't need to necessarily look at all these other tools outside of yourself. It's like one of my favorite analogies is the staff on the Titanic were moving the furniture around as it was sinking, thinking that they might save the boat from sinking by moving the furniture around. I think that's how we've been with a lot of ego-driven modalities that aren't actually going into the full unconscious, which is where we need to go to have these direct experiences. Sorry for the long answer, but it is for everybody, and it's not just about psychedelics. Anyone can take something from this doing any spiritual work. But we talk a lot about the Indigenous philosophy and how that ties in alongside with spiritual practice and more of this inner way of connecting with oneself and doing the work. [00:15:21.22] - Tricia Eastman And I think also really not sugar coating it in the sense that the psychedelics aren't going to save us. They're not going to cure PTSD. Nothing you take will. It's you that does the work. And if you don't do the work, you're not going to have an 87 % success rate with opioid use disorder or whatever it is, 60 something % for treatment-resistant depression or whatever. It's like you have to do the work. And so we can't keep putting the power in the modality reality or the pill. [00:16:03.18] - Joe Moore Yeah, that makes sense. So you did an interesting thing here with this book, and it was really highlighting aspects of the alchemical process. And people don't necessarily have exposure. They hear the words alchemy. I get my shoulders go up when I hear alchemizing, like transmutation. But it's a thing. And how do we then start communicating this from Jung? I found out an interesting thing recently as an ongoing student. Carl Jung didn't necessarily have access to all that many manuscripts. There's so many alchemical manuscripts available now compared to what he had. And as a result, our understanding of alchemy has really evolved. Western alchemy, European alchemy, everybody. Perhaps Kmetic, too. I don't know. You could speak to that more. I don't keep track of what's revealed in Egypt. So it's really interesting to present that in a forward way? How has it been received so far? Or were you nervous to present this in this way? [00:17:25.10] - Tricia Eastman I mean, honestly, I think the most important The important thing is that in working with several thousand people over the years, people think that taking the psychedelic and the trauma is going to go away. It's always there. I mean, we We archetypically will have the shadow as long as we need the shadow to learn. And so even if we go into a journey and we transcend it, it's still there. So I would say that the The feedback has been really incredible. I mean, the people that are reading... I mean, I think because I'm weaving so many different, complex and deep concepts into one book, it might be a little harder to market. And I think the biggest bummer was that I was really trying to be respectful to my elders and not say anything in the title about Iboga and Abigain, even though I talk a lot about it in the book, and it's such a hot topic, it's really starting to take off. But the people that have read it really consider it. They really do the work. They do the practices in the book, and I'm just getting really profound feedback. So that's exciting to me because really, ultimately, alchemy... [00:18:55.22] - Tricia Eastman Yeah, you're right. It gets used Used a lot in marketing lingo and sitting in the depth of the tar pit. For me, when I was in Gabon, I remember times where I really had to look at things that were so dark in my family history that I didn't even realize were mine until later connected to my lineage. And the dark darkness connected to that and just feeling that and then knowing really the truth of our being is that we aren't those things. We're in this process of changing and being, and so nothing is is fixed, but there is a alchemical essence in just learning to be with it. And so not always can we just be with something. And and have it change, but there are many times that we can actually just be with those parts of ourselves and be accepting, where it's not like you have to have this intellectualized process It's just like, first you have the negrado, then you tune into the albeda, and you receive the insights, and you journal about it, and da, da, da, da, da Action, Mars aspect of it, the rubeda of the process. It's not like that at all. [00:20:44.15] - Tricia Eastman It's really that the wisdom that comes from it because you're essentially digesting black goo, which is metaphoric to the oil that we use to power all of society that's pulled deep out of the Earth, and it becomes gold. It becomes... And really, the way I like to think of it is like, in life, we are here to create, and we are not here to heal ourselves. So if you go to psychedelic medicine and you want to heal yourself, you're going to be in for... You're just going to be stuck and burnt out because that's not what we're here to do as human beings, and you'll never run out of things to heal. But if you You think of the negrado in alchemy as gasoline in your car. Every time you go back in, it's like refilling your gas tank. And whatever you go back in for as you're moving in the journey, it's almost like that bit of negrado is like a lump of coal that's burning in the gas tank. And that gets you to the next point to which there's another thing related to the creative process. So it's like As you're going in that process, you're going to hit these speed bumps and these obstacles in the way. [00:22:07.29] - Tricia Eastman And those obstacles in the way, that's the healing. So if you just get in the car in the human vehicle and you drive and you continue to pull out the shadow material and face it, you're going to keep having the steam, but not just focus on it, having that intention, having that connection to moving forward in life. And I hate to use those words because they sound so growth and expansion oriented, which life isn't always. It's evolutionary and deevolutionary. It's always in spirals. But ultimately, you're in a creative process would be the best way to orient it. So I think when we look at alchemy from that standpoint, then it's productive. Effective. Otherwise, it sounds like some brand of truffle salt or something. [00:23:09.12] - Joe Moore Yeah, I think it's a... If people want to dig in, amazing. It's just a way to describe processes, and it's super informative if you want to go there, but it's not necessary for folks to do the work. And I like how you framed it quite a bit. So let's see. There is one bit, Tricia, that my ears really went up on this one point about a story about Actually, let me do a tangent for you real quick, and then we're going to come back to this story. So are you familiar with the tribe, the Dogon, in Africa? Of course. Yeah. So they're a group that looks as though they were involved in Jewish and/or Egyptian traditions, and then ended up on the far side of like, what, Western Africa, far away, and had their own evolution away from Egypt and the Middle East. Fascinating. Fascinating stories, fascinating astronomy, and much more. I don't know too much about the religion. I love their masks. But this drew an analogy for me, as you were describing that the Buiti often have stories about having lineage to pre-dynastic Egyptian culture. I guess we'll call it that for now, the Kometic culture. [00:24:44.23] - Joe Moore I had not heard that before. Shame on me because I haven't really read any books about Buiti as a religion or organization, or anything to this point. But I found that really interesting to know that now, at least I'm aware of two groups claiming lineage to that ancient world of magic. Can you speak about that at all for us? Yeah. [00:25:09.24] - Tricia Eastman So first off, there really aren't any books talking about that. Some of the things I've learned from elders that I've spoke with and asked in different lineages in Masoco and in Fong Buiti, there's a few things. One, We lived in many different eras. Even if you go into ancient texts of different religions, creation stories, and biblical stories, they talk about these great floods that wiped out the planet. One of the things that Atum talks about, who is one of my Buiti fathers who passed a couple years ago, is Is the understanding that before we were in these different areas, you had Mu or Lumaria, you had Atlantis, and then you had our current timeline. And the way that consciousness was within those timelines was very different and the way the Earth was. You had a whole another continent called Atlantis that many people, even Plato, talks about a very specific location of. And what happened, I believe during that time period, Africa, at least the Saharan band of the desert was much more lush, and it was a cultural melting pot. So if you think about, for example, the Pygmy tribes, which are in Equatorial Africa, they are the ones that introduced Iboga to the Buiti. [00:27:08.08] - Tricia Eastman If you look at the history of ancient Egypt, what I'm told is that the Pygmies lived in Pharaonic Egypt, all the way up until Pharaonic Egypt. And there was a village. And if you look on the map in Egypt, you see a town called Bawiti, B-A-W-I-T-I. And that is the village where they lived. And I have an interesting hypothesis that the God Bess, if you look at what he's wearing, it's the exact same to a T as what the Pygmies wear. And the inspiration for which a lot of the Buiti, because they use the same symbology, because each part of the outfit, whether it's the Mocingi, which is like this animal skin, or the different feathers, they use the parrot feather as a symbology of speech and communication, all of these things are codes within the ceremony that were passed along. And so when you look at Bess, he's wearing almost the exact same outfit that the Pygmies are wearing and very similar to if you see pictures of the ceremonies of Misoko or Gonde Misoko, which I would say is one of the branches of several branches, but that are closer to the original way of Buiti of the jungle, so closer to the way the Pygmies practice. [00:28:59.16] - Tricia Eastman So If you look at Bess, just to back my hypothesis. So you look at Neteru. Neteru were the... They called them the gods of Egypt, and they were all giant. And many say the word nature actually means nature, but they really represented the divine qualities of nature. There's best. Look at him. And a lot of the historians said he's the God of Harmeline and children and happiness. I think he's more than the God of Harmeline, and I think that the Pygmies worked with many different plants and medicines, and really the ultimate aspect of it was freedom. If you think about liberation, like the libation, number one, that's drunkiness. Number two, liberation, you of freeing the joyous child from within, our true nature of who we are. You look at every temple in Egypt, and you look at these giant statues, and then you have this tiny little pygmy God, and there's no other gods that are like Bess. He's one of a kind. He's in his own category. You've You've got giant Hathor, you've got giant Thoth, you've got giant Osiris, Isis, and then you've got little tiny Bess. And so I think it backs this hypothesis. [00:30:48.27] - Tricia Eastman And my understanding from practitioners of Dogon tradition is that they also believe that their ancestors came from Egypt, and they definitely have a lot of similarity in the teachings that I've seen and been exposed to just from here. I mean, you can... There's some more modern groups, and who's to know, really, the validity of all of it. But there are some, even on YouTube, where you can see there's some more modern Dogon temples that are talking in English or English translation about the teachings, and they definitely line up with Kamehdi teachings. And so my hypothesis around that is that the Dogon are probably most likely pygmy descendants as, And the pygmy were basically run out of Bawiti because there was jealousy with the priest, because there was competition, because all of the offerings that were being made in the temple, there was a lot of power, connected to each of the temples. And there was competitiveness even amongst the different temples, lining the Nile and all of that, of who was getting the most offerings and who was getting the most visits. And so the Pygmies essentially were run out, and they migrated, some of them migrated south to Gabon and Equatorial Africa. [00:32:43.07] - Tricia Eastman And then If you think about the physical changes that happened during these planetary catastrophes, which we know that there had been more than one based on many historical books. So that whole area went through a desertification process, and the Equatorial rainforest remained. So it's highly likely even that Iboga, at one point, grew in that region as well. [00:33:18.00] - Joe Moore Have you ever seen evidence of artwork depicting Iboga there in Egypt? [00:33:24.17] - Tricia Eastman There are several different death temples. I'm trying to remember the name of the exact one that I went to, but on the columns, it looked like Iboga trees that were carved into the columns. And I think what's interesting about this... So Seychet is the divine scribe, the scribe of Egyptian wisdom. And she was basically, essentially the sidekick of Thoth. Thoth was who brought a lot of the ancient wisdom and people like Pythagoras and many of the ancient philosophers in Roman times went and studied in a lot of these Thoth lineage mystery schools. When you look at the the river of the Nile on the east side, east is the energy liturgy of initiation. It's always like if you go into a sweat lodge or if you see an ancient temple, usually the doorway is facing the east. West is where the sun sets, and so that's the death. And what's interesting about that is that it was on the west side in the death temple that you would see these aboga plants. But also Seixat was the one who was the main goddess depicted in the hieroglyphs, and there was other hieroglyphs. I mean, if you look at the hieroglyphs of Seixat, it looks like she has a cannabis leaf above her head, and a lot of people have hypothesized that, that it's cannabis. [00:35:16.03] - Tricia Eastman Of course, historians argue about that. And then she's also carrying a little vessel that looks like it has some mushrooms in it. And obviously, she has blue Lotus. Why would she be carrying around blue Lotus and mushrooms? I don't know. It sounds like some initiation. [00:35:36.19] - Joe Moore Yeah, I love that. Well, thanks so much for going there with me. This photo of Seixet. There's some good animations, but everybody just go look at the temple carvings picturing this goddess. It's stunning. And obviously, cannabis. I think it's hard to argue not. I've seen all these like, mushroom, quote, unquote, mushroom things everywhere. I'm like, Yeah, maybe. But this is like, Yes, that's clear. [00:36:06.27] - Tricia Eastman And if you look at what she's wearing, it's the exact same outfit as Bess, which is classic Basically, how the medicine woman or medicine man or what you would call shaman, the outfit that the healers would wear, the shamans or the oracles, those of the auracular arts, different forms of divination would wear. So if you really follow that and you see, Oh, what's Isis wearing? What's Hathor wearing? What's Thoth wearing? You can tell she's very specifically the healer. And it's interesting because they call her the divine scribe. So she's actually downloading, my guess is she's taking plants and downloading from the primordial. [00:37:02.00] - Joe Moore Well, okay. Thanks for bringing that up. That was a lovely part of your book, was your... There's a big initiation sequence, and then you got to go to this place where you could learn many things. Could you speak to that a little bit? And I hope that's an okay one to bring up. [00:37:22.22] - Tricia Eastman Are you talking about the time that I was in initiation and I went to the different ashrams, the different realms in, like Yogananda calls them astral schools that you go and you just download? It seemed like astral schools, but it seemed like it was a Bwiti initiation, where you were in silence for three days, and then Yeah, that one. So there were several different... I mean, I've done seven official initiations, and then I've had many other initiatic experiences. And I would say this one was incredible. Incredibly profound because what it showed me first was that all of the masters of the planet, it was showing me everyone from Kurt Cobain to Bob Marley to Einstein, all the people that had some special connection to an intelligence that was otherworldly, that they were essentially going to the same place, like they were visiting the same place, and they would go. And so the first thing I noticed was that I recognized a lot of people, and current, I'm not going I don't want to say names of people, but I recognize people that are alive today that I would say are profound thinkers that were going to these places as well. [00:38:57.05] - Tricia Eastman And interestingly, then I was taken into one of the classrooms, and in the classroom, this one, specifically, it showed me that you could download any knowledge instantaneously That essentially, having a connection to that school allowed you to download music or understand very complex ideas ideas of mathematics or physics or science that would take people like lifetimes to understand. So it was essentially showing this. And a lot of people might discredit that, that that might be a specific... That we as humans can do that. Well, I'm not saying that it's not that. I don't I don't want to say that it's anything. But what I can say is that I have definitely noticed the level of access that I have within my consciousness. And also what I notice with the masters of Bwiti, specifically in terms of the level of intelligence that they're accessing and that it's different. It's got a different quality to it. And so it was a really profound teaching. And one of the things, too, that I've learned is I use it to help me learn specific things. I don't know if I can give a positive testimonial, but I am learning French. [00:40:55.00] - Tricia Eastman And I noticed when I was in Aspen at the Abigain meeting, and I was with Mubeiboual, who speaks French, I started saying things French that I didn't even realize that I knew to say. I've had these weird moments where I'm actually using this tool And I'm also using it. I have a Gabonese harp. I don't know if you can see it up on the shelf over there. But I also went and asked for some help with downloading some assistance in the harp, then we'll see how that goes. [00:41:38.17] - Joe Moore Yeah. So that's brilliant. I'm thinking of other precedent for that outside of this context, and I can think of a handful. So I love that, like savant syndrome. And then there's a classic text called Ars Notoria that helps accelerate learning, allegedly. And then there's a number of other really interesting things that can help us gain these bits of wisdom and knowledge. And it does feel a little bit like the Dogon. The story I get is the receiving messages from the dog star, and therefore have all sorts of advanced information that they shouldn't we call it. Yeah. Yeah, which is fascinating. We have that worldwide. I think there's plenty of really interesting stuff here. So what I appreciated, Tricia, about how you're structuring your book, or you did structure your book, is that it it seems at the same time, a memoir, on another hand, workbook, like here are some exercises. On the other hand, like here's some things you might try in session. I really appreciated that. It was like people try to get really complicated when we talk about things like IFS. I'm like, well, you don't necessarily have to. You could. Or is this just a human thing, a human way to look at working with our parts? [00:43:20.15] - Joe Moore I don't know. Do you have any thoughts about the way you were approaching this parts work in your book versus how complicated some people make it feel? [00:43:30.00] - Tricia Eastman Yeah. I find that this is just my personal opinion, and no way to discredit Richard Schwartz's work. But parts work has existed in shamanism since forever. When we really look at even in ancient Egypt, Issus, she put Osiris act together. That was the metaphorical story of soul retrieval, which is really the spiritual journey of us reclaiming these pieces of ourselves that we've been disconnected from a society level or individually. And within the context of parts work, it's very organic and it feels other worldly. It's not like there's ever a force where I'm in the process with someone. And a lot of times I would even go into the process with people because they weren't accustomed to how to work with Iboga or game, and so they would be stuck. And then the minute I was like, you know, Iboga, in the tradition, it's really about... It's like the game Marco Polo. It's call and response. And so you're really an active participant, and you're supposed to engage with the spirits. And so the minute that things would show up, it'd be more about like, oh, what do you see? What's coming up here? Asking questions about it, being curious. [00:45:17.07] - Tricia Eastman If you could engage with it, sometimes there's processes where you can't really engage with things at all. So everything that I'm talking about is It was organically shown up as an active engagement process that it wasn't like we were going in. There have been some where you can guide a little bit, but you never push. It might be something like, go to your house, and it being completely unattached. And if they can't go there, then obviously the psyche doesn't want to go there, but it's really an exercise to help them to connect to their soul. And then in contrast, IFS is like, let's work on these different parts and identify these different parts of ourselves. But then let's give them fixed titles, and let's continually in a non-altered state of consciousness, not when we're meditating, not when we're actively in a state where we have the plasticity to change the pathway in the unconscious mind, but we're working in the egoic mind, and we're talking to these parts of ourselves. That could be helpful in the day-to-day struggles. Let's say you have someone who has a lot of rumination or a very active mind to have something to do with that. [00:46:57.01] - Tricia Eastman But that's not going to be the end-all, be-all solution to their problem. It's only moving the deck chairs around on the Titanic because you're still working in the framework where, I'm sorry, the Titanic is still sinking, and it may or may not be enough. It may or may not produce a reliable outcome that could be connected with some level of true relief and true connection within oneself. And so I think that people just... I feel like they almost get a little too... And maybe it's because we're so isolated and lonely, it's like, Oh, now I've got parts. I'm not by myself. I've got my fire I've got my firefighter, and I've got my guardian, and all these things. And I definitely think that IFS is a really great initiator into the idea of engaging with parts of ourselves and how to talk to them. But I don't think it's... And I think doing a session here and there, for some people, can be incredibly helpful, but to all of a sudden incorporate it in like a dogma is toxic. It's dangerous. And that's what we have to be really careful of. [00:48:23.25] - Joe Moore So thank you for that. There's a complicated discussion happening at the Aspen meeting. I think I was only sitting maybe 30 feet away from you. Sorry, I didn't say hi. But the folks from Blessings of the Forest were there, and I got a chance to chat with a number of them and learn more about nuclear protocols, biopiracy, literal piracy, and smuggling, and the works. I'm curious. This is a really complicated question, and I'm sorry for a complicated question this far in. But it's like, as we talk about this stuff publicly and give it increased profile, we are de facto giving more juice and energy to black markets to pirate. We're adding fuel to this engine that we don't necessarily want to see. Cameroon has nothing left, pretty much. From what I'm told, people from Cameroon are coming in, stealing it from Cabona, bringing it back, and then shipping it out. And there's It's like a whole worldwide market for this stuff. I witnessed it. This stuff. Yeah, right? This is real. So the people, the Buiti, and certain Gabanese farmers, are now being pirated. And international demand does not care necessarily about Nagoya compliance. United States didn't sign Nagoya protocol for this biopiracy protection, but we're not the only violator of these ethics, right? [00:50:00.22] - Joe Moore It's everywhere. So how do we balance thinking about talking about IBOCA publicly, given that there's no clean way to get this stuff in the United States that is probably not pirated materials? And as far as I know, there's only one, quote unquote, Nagoya compliant place. I've heard stories that I haven't shared publicly yet, that there's other groups that are compliant, too. But it's a really interesting conversation, and I'm curious of your perspectives there. [00:50:34.04] - Tricia Eastman I mean, this is a very long, drawn-out question, so forgive me if I give you a long, drawn-out answer. [00:50:41.01] - Joe Moore Go for it. [00:50:41.26] - Tricia Eastman It's all good. So in reality, I do believe... You know the first Ebo, Abogaine, that was done in the country was experiments on eight Black prisoners at a hospital under the MK program. [00:51:01.16] - Joe Moore Pre-lutz off, we were doing Abogaine tests on people. [00:51:06.00] - Tricia Eastman Yeah, so pre-Lutz off. I have a hypothesis, although a lot of people would already know me. [00:51:12.07] - Joe Moore No, I didn't know that. Thank you for sharing that with me. [00:51:14.13] - Tricia Eastman That's great. I'll send you some stuff on that. But the Aboga wanted to be here. The Abogaine wanted to be here. I think it's a complex question because on one side of the coin, you have the spirit of plants, which are wild and crazy sometimes. And then you have the initiatory traditions, which create a scaffolding to essentially put the lightning in a bottle, so to say, so that it's less damaging. [00:51:51.13] - Joe Moore It's almost like a temple structure around it. [00:51:53.16] - Tricia Eastman I like that. Yeah. Put a temple structure around it because it's like, yeah, you can work with new nuclear energy, but you have to wear gloves, you have to do all these different safety precautions. I would say that that's why these traditions go hand in hand with the medicine. So some people might say that the agenda of Iboga and even Abogaine might be a different agenda than the Buiti. And ultimately, whether we are Indigenous or not, the Earth belongs to everyone. It's capitalism and the patriarchy that created all these borders and all these separations between people. And in reality, we still have to acknowledge what the essence of Buiti is, which is really the cause and effect relationship that we have with everything that we do. And so some people might use the term karma. And that is if you're in Abogaine clinic and you're putting a bunch of videos out online, and that's spurring a trend on TikTok, which we already know is a big thing where people are selling illegal market, iBoga, is Is any of that your responsibility? Yes. And if I was to sit down with a kogi kagaba, which are the mamus from Colombia, or if I were to sit down with a who said, Hey, let's do a divination, and let's ask some deep questions about this. [00:53:54.01] - Tricia Eastman It would look at things on a bigger perspective than just like, Oh, this person is completely responsible for this. But when we're talking about a medicine that is so intense, and when I was younger, when I first met the medicine, I first was introduced in 2013 was when I first found out about Abigain and Iboga. And in 2014, I lived with someone who lived with a 14th generation Misoko, maybe it was 10th generation Misoco in Costa Rica. And then he decided to just start serving people medicine. And he left this person paralyzed, one person that he treated for the rest of his life. And Aubrey Marcus, it was his business partner for On It, and he's publicly talked about this, about the story behind this. If you go into his older podcasts and blog posts and stuff, he talks about the situation. And the reality is that this medicine requires a massive amount of responsibility. It has crazy interactions, such as grapefruit juice, for example, and all kinds of other things. And so it's not just the responsibility towards the buiti, it's also the responsibility of, does me talking about this without really talking about the safety and the risks, encourage other people. [00:55:49.10] - Tricia Eastman One of the big problems, back in the day, I went to my first guita conference, Global Abogaine Therapy Alliance in 2016. And And then, ISEARs was debating because there was all these people buying Abogaine online and self-detoxing and literally either dying or ending up in the hospital. And they're like, should we release protocols and just give people instructions on how to do this themselves? And I was like, no, absolutely not. We need to really look at the fact that this is an initiatory tradition, that it's been practiced for thousands of that the minimum level at which a person is administering in Gabon is 10 years of training. The way that we've made up for those mistakes, or sorry, not mistakes, lack of training is that we've used medical oversight. Most of the medical oversight that we've received has been a result of mistakes that were made in the space. The first patient that MAPS treated, they killed them because they gave them way over the amount of what milligrams per kilogram of Abigain that you should give somebody. Every single mistake that was made, which a lot of them related to loss of life, became the global Abogane Therapy Safety Guidelines. [00:57:28.19] - Tricia Eastman And so we've already learned from our mistakes here. And so I think it's really important that we understand that there's that aspect, which is really the blood on our hands of if we're not responsible, if we're encouraging people to do this, and we're talking about it in a casual way on Instagram. Like, yeah, microdosing. Well, did you know there was a guy prosecuted this last year, personal trainer, who killed someone And from microdosing in Colorado, the event happened in 2020, but he just got sentenced early 2025. These are examples that we need to look at as a collective that we need. So that's one side of it. And then the other side of it is the reciprocity piece. And the reciprocity piece related to that is, again, the cause and effect. Is A Abogaine clinic talking about doing Abogaine and doing video testimonials, spurring the efforts that are actively being made in Gabon to protect the cultural lineage and to protect the medicine. The reality is every Abogaine clinic is booked out for... I heard the next year, I don't know if that's fact or fiction, but someone told me for a year, because because of all the stuff with all the celebrities that are now talking about it. [00:59:05.20] - Tricia Eastman And then on top of that, you have all these policy, all these different advocacy groups that are talking about it. Essentially, it's not going to be seven... It's going to be, I would say, seven to 10 years before something gets through the FDA. We haven't even done a phase one safety trial for any of the Abigain that's being commercialized. And even if there's some magic that happens within the Trump administration in the next two years that changes the rules to fast track it, it's not going to cut it down probably more than a year. So then you're looking at maybe six years minimum. That whole time, all that strain is being put on Gabon. And so if you're not supporting Gabon, what's happening is it's losing a battle because the movement is gaining momentum, and Gabon cannot keep up with that momentum. It's a tiny country the size of Colorado. So my belief is that anyone who's benefiting from all the hype around Iboga and Abogayne or personally benefited with healing within themselves should be giving back, either to Ancestral Heart, to Blessings of the Forest, to any group that is doing authentic Indigenous-led biocultural stewardship work. [01:00:45.21] - Joe Moore Thanks for that. It's important that we get into some detail here. I wish we had more time to go further on it. [01:00:54.17] - Tricia Eastman I'll do a quick joke. I know. I have a lot. [01:00:57.17] - Joe Moore Yes. Now do Mike Tyson. Kidding. Yeah. So what did we maybe miss that you want to make sure people hear about your book, any biocultural stuff that you want to get out there? You can go for a few more minutes, too, if you have a few things you want to say. [01:01:20.03] - Tricia Eastman I mean, really, thank you so much for this opportunity. Thank you for caring and being so passionate about the context related to Buiti, which I think is so important. I would just say that I've been working with this medicine for... I've known about it for 13 years, and I've been working with it for 11 years, and this is my life. I've devoted my life to this work, me and my husband, both. And there isn't anything greater of a blessing that it has brought in our life, but it also is it's a very saturnian energy, so it brings chaos. It brings the deepest challenges and forces you to face things that you need to face. But also on the other side of the coin, everything that I've devoted and given back in service to this work has exponentially brought blessing in my life. So again, I see the issue with people doing these shortened processes, whether it's in an Abigain clinic where you just don't have the ritualistic sacred aspects of an initiatic context and really the rituals that really help integrate and ground the medicine. But you still have this opportunity to continue to receive the blessings. [01:03:09.23] - Tricia Eastman And I really feel in our current psychedelic movement, we essentially have a Bugatti. These medicines are the most finely-tuned sports car that can do every... Even more than that, more like a spaceship. We have this incredible tool, but we're driving it in first gear. We don't even really know how to operate it. It's like, well, I guess you could say flight of the Navigator, but that was a self-driving thing, and I guess, psychedelics are self-driving. But I feel that we are discounting ourselves so greatly by not looking into our past of how these medicines were used. I really think the biggest piece around that is consulting the genuine lineage carriers like Buiti elders, like Mubu Bwal, who's the head of Maganga Manan Zembe, And giving them a seat at the head of the table, really, because there's so much I know in my tradition, about what we do to bring cardiac safety. And why is it that people aren't dying as much in Gabon as they're dying in Abigan clinics. [01:04:37.28] - Joe Moore Shots fired. All right. I like it. Thank you. Thank you for everything you've done here today, I think harm reduction is incredibly important. Let's stop people dying out there. Let's do some harm reduction language. I actually was able to sweet talk my way into getting a really cool EKG recently, which I thought really great about. If you can speak clinician, you can go a long way sometimes. [01:05:11.20] - Tricia Eastman Yeah. Oh, no, go ahead. Sorry. [01:05:15.17] - Joe Moore No, that's all. That's all. So harm reduction is important. How do we keep people safe? How do we keep healing people? And thank you for all your hard work. [01:05:27.22] - Tricia Eastman Thank you. I really appreciate it. We're all figuring it out. No one's perfect. So I'm not trying to fire any shots at anybody. I'm just like, Guys, please listen. We need to get in right relationship with the medicine. And we need to include these stakeholders. And on the other side of the coin, I just want to add that there's a lot of irresponsible, claimed traditional practitioners that are running retreat centers in Mexico and Costa Rica and other places that are also causing a lot of harm, too. So the medical monitoring is definitely, if you're going to do anything, Because these people don't have the training, the worst thing you could do is not have someone going in blind that doesn't have training and not have had an EKG and all that stuff. But we've got a long way to go, and I'm excited to help support in a productive way, all coming together. And that's what me and Joseph have been devoted to. [01:06:45.02] - Joe Moore Brilliant. Tricia Eastman, thank you so much. Everybody should go check out your book Seeding Consciousness out now. The audiobook's lovely, too. Thank you so much for being here. And until next time. [01:07:00.14] - Tricia Eastman Thank you.    
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  PT 643 - Logan Davidson - American Ibogaine, State Strategy, and the Future of Psychedelic Policy 02.12.2025 1t 16min

  Logan Davidson joins the show to talk about the fast-moving world of Ibogaine in American and why state-based leadership is shaping the future of psychedelic reform. Davidson is the executive director of Texans for Greater Mental Health, the legislative director at VETS, and a key strategist behind Texas' landmark interest in ibogaine research. He also advises for Americans for Ibogaine. His work sits at the intersection of science, policy, and lived experience, and this conversation offers a clear look into what is happening right now. Early Themes: The Rise of State Advocacy Davidson explains how he entered politics at nineteen and how his professional path merged with psychedelic policy work during the 2021 Texas legislative session. Through that first bill, he saw how science, bipartisan cooperation, and strong local leadership could advance major reform. Early discussion focuses on: How Texas became the first state to pass a major psychedelic research bill Why ibogaine became a central focus How the special operations community helped shift political momentum The personal mental health stories that shaped Davidson's commitment This section also highlights how Americans for Ibogaine entered the conversation through veterans, researchers, and state lawmakers who felt the urgency of the opioid crisis and traumatic brain injury. Core Insights: Ibogaine, Risk, and the New Research Model In the middle portion of the episode, Davidson breaks down the strategy, challenges, and promise behind ibogaine research and state-based policy innovation. Key insights include: The unique bipartisan environment in Texas Why stories from veterans and spouses moved lawmakers The importance of medical screening for cardiac risk Why research is essential for safety How states can use funding, revenue sharing, and public health goals to shape future access What policymakers are watching right now Effectiveness for opioid use disorder Data from traumatic brain injury studies Cardiac safety protocols The risk of untreated depression and addiction The national security implications of forcing service members to seek illegal care Davidson also explains why removing the psychedelic experience from the molecule remains controversial and why many researchers believe the full experience matters. Later Discussion and Takeaways: The Road Ahead for American Ibogaine In the final part of the conversation, Davidson speaks about the future of American Ibogaine and the broader psychedelic field. He outlines why local leadership matters, why federal funding, like what Psychedelic Medicine Coalition is supporting, could be the next major tipping point, and how big pharmaceutical companies may eventually enter the space through acquisitions or proprietary molecule development. Concrete takeaways include: States should expect clear benefits: lower-cost treatments, shared revenue, and local control Community leaders, not outsiders, often drive legislative wins The need for long-term safety data remains National security concerns highlight why regulated access must expand Federal research money could radically transform the pace and scale of studies He also encourages listeners to join or build local organizations, since nearly every major win comes from people who live in the state pushing from the ground up. Frequently Asked Questions Is Ibogaine safe? Ibogaine has cardiac risks that require medical screening and careful monitoring. Researchers stress that safety improves with proper protocols and more clinical data. Why is Ibogaine important for veterans? Many special operations veterans report major benefits for traumatic brain injury, PTSD, and addiction. Their stories have driven political momentum. How are states involved in Ibogaine research? States like Texas are funding clinical trials, drug development, shaping policy, and exploring revenue and access models to support long-term public health benefits. Will Ibogaine become federally supported in America? New federal interest, including major grants and bipartisan discussions, suggests that broader support may be coming in the next few years. Closing Thoughts This episode shows why the work of Logan Davidson sits at the center of today's psychedelic resurgence. It highlights a complex but hopeful moment where science, policy, and lived experience are beginning to align. As American Ibogaine research expands, state leaders, clinicians, veterans, and advocates all have a role in shaping a safer and more effective future for these treatments.
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  PT 642 - Michael Sapiro PhD - Truth Medicine, Psychedelics, and Living Your Truth 28.11.2025 1t 13min

  In this episode, Michael Sapiro joins Kyle Buller to explore truth, healing, and psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy through the lens of his new book, Truth Medicine. A clinical psychologist, ordained Zen Buddhist monk, retreat leader, and fellow at the Institute of Noetic Sciences, he blends Buddhist psychology, trauma work, and consciousness studies. The discussion focuses on how people discover and live their truth, and why that truth becomes the core medicine in healing. Early in the Podcast with Michael Sapiro Michael describes how years of clinical work and retreat facilitation shaped his understanding of healing. Real transformation happens when people speak truths they have never allowed themselves to say out loud. These truths often relate to childhood experiences, identity, and how people learned to stay safe. Key early themes include insight into: • Truth as a physical and emotional "ring" in the body • Personas formed in childhood to avoid rejection • Depression and anxiety caused by living from those personas The conversation explores how frightening it can be to challenge old roles and family narratives, yet how necessary it is for authentic healing. Core Insights from Michael Sapiro Michael outlines his model of preparation, psychedelic sessions, and integration, especially in ketamine-assisted psychotherapy. Preparation often includes discovering what he calls the "heart of the hurt" and building trust for the internal process. Core insights include: • Tracing patterns back to their origins in early experience • Using guided imagery, breathwork, and somatic awareness to practice surrender • Understanding healing as applying love to wounded parts • Understanding growth as becoming who you would be without old limits Additional points: • Medicine sessions create real practice in letting go • Defenses should be engaged with, not fought • Sensations in the body offer essential guidance Later Discussion and Takeaways with Michael Sapiro Michael compares one-on-one psychotherapy with retreat work. In group settings he holds space and supports safety, while in individual sessions he uses a blend of silence and active therapeutic guidance. He also shares personal truth work, including embracing his own "bigness," understanding ethics as part of spirituality, and learning to endure anxiety without falling into shame. Listeners gain practical guidance for nurturing wounded parts, developing the ability to endure challenging states, and allowing their strengths to emerge. Frequently Asked Questions Who is Michael Sapiro? Michael Sapiro is a clinical psychologist, ordained Zen Buddhist monk, psychedelic psychotherapist, retreat leader, and research fellow at the Institute of Noetic Sciences. What is the main idea of Truth Medicine by Michael Sapiro? Truth Medicine teaches that discovering and living one's personal truth is the core of healing, with psychedelics serving as a tool that helps reveal and embody that truth. How does Michael Sapiro use ketamine in therapy? He uses ketamine within a structured model involving preparation, supportive dosing sessions, and integration focused on compassion, endurance, and meaningful change. Does he only work in group settings? No. He leads retreats, but much of his work is individual psychedelic psychotherapy focused on trauma, personal truth, and growth. What can clinicians learn from his approach? Clinicians can learn how to balance guided intervention with open space, work directly with defenses, and support healing as both love and action. Closing Thoughts This conversation with Michael Sapiro offers a grounded, practical view of how truth, compassion, and psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy can support real change in the current psychedelic resurgence. By blending body awareness, ethical clarity, and personal growth, this episode provides useful guidance for therapists, guides, and seekers who want to bring more truth medicine into their lives and communities. https://www.michaelsapiro.com