Technology Now

Jaksot

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  AI agents, superpowers and human judgement: the rise of agentic enterprise | Suparna Bhattacharya 17.09.2026 23min

  What if AI could do more than just help employees and instead assist with the running of an entire organisation?As businesses move beyond chatbots and start to integrate AI into their day to day working, a new type of organisation is appearing: the agentic enterprise. This week, Technology Now explores this new form of enterprise with Suparna Bhattacharya, HPE Fellow, AI Research Lab at HPE Labs to find out:How agentic AI goes beyond automation and individual productivityThe importance of teaching AI not just how to do tasks, but the principles it should follow What role humans play in an agentic enterprise What an agentic operating system is, and why they could be a game changer🎧 Listen for a front-line view of where enterprise technology is headed.Technology Now is HPE’s flagship, award-winning podcast that brings enterprise innovation to life - featuring real conversations with leaders, customers, and experts on how AI, cloud, and networking are shaping the future of business. Join hosts Michael Bird and Sam Jarrell each Thursday for a new episode on how technology drives real change for companies and consumers, and why everyone should be invested in the conversation.This episode is available on YouTube, Spotify, Apple and wherever you get your podcasts.About Suparna:https://www.linkedin.com/in/suparna-bhattacharya-5a7798b/HPE Labs miniseries on Technology Now, celebrating 60 years of innovation:Episode 1 – Sixty years of innovation: how would we use a quantum computer? | Masoud Mohseni | https://hpe.lnk.to/quantumcomputer Episode 2 – Is encryption enough to protect our data? | Nigel Edwards | https://hpe.lnk.to/encryption Episode 3 – Chatbots, agents & LLMs: the future of AI where bigger isn’t always better | Kirk Bresniker | https://hpe.lnk.to/llm Episode 4 – How to power AI: smarter cooling and the future of energy | Cullen Bash | https://hpe.lnk.to/powering-AI Episode 5 – AI agents, superpowers and human judgement: the rise of agentic enterprise | Suparna Bhattacharya | https://hpe.lnk.to/agentic-enterprise
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  Self-driving networks, GPU clusters, and infrastructure: behind the AI boom | Praveen Jain 10.09.2026 16min

  Creating effective AI models takes more than just huge amounts of compute. It requires the high-performance networks needed to connect increasingly powerful GPU clusters and move vast amounts of data. With the speed of AI adoption showing no signs of slowing, our entire infrastructure is having to change to keep up, but can the AI being trained also be used to increase the efficiency of the networks supporting it?This week, Technology Now revisits the concepts of networks for AI and AI for networking, to see how much has changed in the last six months. Praveen Jain, SVP & GM Data Center and AI Networking, HPE, joins the show to explain:The difference between a traditional data center and one optimized for AIHow to maximize the efficiency of expensive GPUsWhy infrastructure is becoming self-healingThe vision of an autonomous data center in the future🎧 Listen for an insider's view of the infrastructure powering the AI revolution.Technology Now is HPE’s flagship, award-winning podcast that brings enterprise innovation to life - featuring real conversations with leaders, customers, and experts on how AI, cloud, and networking are shaping the future of business. Join hosts Michael Bird and Sam Jarrell each Thursday for a new episode on how technology drives real change for companies and consumers, and why everyone should be invested in the conversation.This episode is available on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify and wherever you get your podcasts.About Praveen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/praveen-jain-24b633/
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  Who owns your AI? Understanding data control, compliance & sovereign AI | Trish Damkroger 03.09.2026 16min

  As AI adoption continues to accelerate, how can organisations maintain control of their data, infrastructure, and AI strategy?Sovereign AI is rapidly moving from planning and discussions to practical implementation, making it more important than ever for IT decision-makers to understand what it is and how it works.So, what does it take to deploy sovereign AI effectively while maintaining control, meeting compliance requirements, and protecting valuable data? This week, Technology Now is joined by Trish Damkroger, SVP & GM, HPC & AI, to find out:What sovereign AI looks like in 2026, and how it can be achievedThe five imperatives that organisations must consider when implementing sovereign AIWhy an effective AI strategy must come before decisions are made🎧 Listen for a front-line view of where enterprise technology is headed.Technology Now is HPE’s flagship, award-winning podcast that brings enterprise innovation to life - featuring real conversations with leaders, customers, and experts on how AI, cloud, and networking are shaping the future of business. Join hosts Michael Bird and Sam Jarrell each Thursday for a new episode on how technology drives real change for companies and consumers, and why everyone should be invested in the conversation.This episode is available on YouTube, Spotify, Apple and wherever you get your podcasts.About Trish: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trishdamkroger/
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  How to power AI: smarter cooling and the future of energy | Cullen Bash 27.08.2026 22min

  AI is transforming the technology industry, but it’s also transforming how we think about energy. As AI models continue to grow, data centres continue to pop up, and agentic AI becomes part of everyday life, our tech infrastructure is consuming more energy than ever before. So how do we power the next generation of AI? In this penultimate episode of our HPE Labs miniseries celebrating 60 years of innovation, Technology Now is joined by Cullen Bash, Deputy Director of HPE Labs, to discuss:Why energy is becoming a strategic concern for CIOs and CEOsHow the increasing demand for compute in data centres is reshaping how we think about energyWhy innovation in electricity generation is as vital as making infrastructure more efficientHow AI could help solve the very problems it is creating🎧 Listen for a front-line view of where enterprise technology is headed. Technology Now is HPE’s flagship, award-winning podcast that brings enterprise innovation to life - featuring real conversations with leaders, customers, and experts on how AI, cloud, and networking are shaping the future of business. Join hosts Michael Bird and Sam Jarrell each Thursday for a new episode on how technology drives real change for companies and consumers, and why everyone should be invested in the conversation. This episode is available on YouTube, Spotify, Apple and wherever you get your podcasts.About Cullen:https://www.linkedin.com/in/cullen-bash/HPE Labs miniseries on Technology Now, celebrating 60 years of innovation:Episode 1 – Sixty years of innovation: how would we use a quantum computer? | Masoud Mohseni | https://hpe.lnk.to/quantumcomputer Episode 2 – Is encryption enough to protect our data? | Nigel Edwards | https://hpe.lnk.to/encryption Episode 3 – Chatbots, agents & LLMs: the future of AI where bigger isn’t always better | Kirk Bresniker | https://hpe.lnk.to/llm Episode 4 – How to power AI: smarter cooling and the future of energy | Cullen Bash | https://hpe.lnk.to/powering-AI Episode 5 – AI agents, superpowers and human judgement: the rise of agentic enterprise | Suparna Bhattacharya | https://hpe.lnk.to/agentic-enterprise
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  Delivering the Milano Cortina Winter Olympics: 1600km fiber optics, 2.6 billion users, and an AI-driven network | Giuseppe Civale 20.08.2026 18min

  What does it take to deliver one of the world’s most complex sporting events?In 2026, the Winter Olympics faced a challenge unlike any previous games: delivering secure, resilient, and effective connectivity over the most geographically distributed games in history. With venues spread across hundreds of kilometres, organisers built a network supported by more than 1,600km of fibre optics and AI-driven technologies to keep critical infrastructure running smoothly. To find out more about how this was possible, Technology Now is joined by Giuseppe Civale, Director of ICT Infrastructure and Venue Technologies, to discuss:The unique challenge presented by venues spread across hundreds of kilometresThe infrastructure built to support the games, and what happens to it now the games are overHow AI was used to help keep the network safe and secureHow the technology developed for Milano Cortina could influence future global sporting events🎧 Listen for a front-line view of where enterprise technology is headed.Technology Now is HPE’s flagship, award winning, podcast that brings enterprise innovation to life - featuring real conversations with leaders, customers, and experts on how AI, cloud, and networking are shaping the future of business. Join hosts Michael Bird and Sam Jarrell each Thursday for a new episode on how technology drives real change for companies and consumers, and why everyone should be invested in the conversation.This episode is available on YouTube, Spotify, Apple and wherever you get your podcasts.About Giuseppe: https://www.linkedin.com/in/giuseppecivale/About HPE & Milano-Cortina: https://www.hpe.com/it/it/networking/milano-cortina-olympics-ai-network-en.htmlSources:https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/News/2026/06/IOC-Milano-Cortina-2026-Audience-Insights-Report.pdf
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  The great VM reset, hybrid AI, and agentic enterprise: rethinking infrastructure in 2026 | Patrick Osborne 13.08.2026 17min

  What do AI adoption, cyber resilience, and the great VM reset have in common? They’re all trends which are colliding to reshape the world of enterprise technology. As organisations prepare for a future powered by intelligent systems, infrastructure, security and virtualisation are becoming increasingly connected strategic priorities. This week, Technology Now explores how these changes are reshaping enterprise technology, as Patrick Osborne, SVP Hybrid Cloud and Office of the CTO, joins the show to discuss:The economic and technological impacts of the great VM resetWhy hybrid systems are essential to succeed in the world of AIThe role of sovereignty and governance in AI adoptionWhat the agentic enterprise could mean for infrastructure and operations🎧 Listen for a front-line view of where enterprise technology is headed. Technology Now is HPE’s flagship, award-winning podcast that brings enterprise innovation to life - featuring real conversations with leaders, customers, and experts on how AI, cloud, and networking are shaping the future of business. Join hosts Michael Bird and Sam Jarrell each Thursday for a new episode on how technology drives real change for companies and consumers, and why everyone should be invested in the conversation. This episode is available on YouTube, Spotify, Apple and wherever you get your podcasts.About Patrick: https://www.linkedin.com/in/patricklosborne
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  Can AI find every vulnerability? The new cybersecurity arms race | Jon Green 06.08.2026 21min

  What do you do when you create an AI that can find security vulnerabilities in almost everything? As AI exposes vulnerabilities hidden deep within critical systems, organisations face a new challenge: staying ahead of threats that can now be discovered at machine speed.This week, Technology Now explores the changing cyber security landscape as AI transforms how vulnerabilities are found, fixed, and exploited, forcing organisations to rethink how they manage risk. Jon Green, CTO HPE Networking, joins us to help explain: How AI can be used to pen test new software before releaseHow AI could fundamentally change the way organisations patch and upgrade technology Why critical infrastructure is particularly vulnerable to these types of attacksWhether we could be heading towards a future where software is completely vulnerability free🎧 Listen for a front-line view of where enterprise technology is headed.Technology Now is HPE’s flagship, award-winning, podcast that brings enterprise innovation to life - featuring real conversations with leaders, customers, and experts on how AI, cloud, and networking are shaping the future of business. Join hosts Michael Bird and Sam Jarrell each Thursday for a new episode on how technology drives real change for companies and consumers, and why everyone should be invested in the conversation.This episode is available on YouTube, Spotify, Apple and wherever you get your podcasts.About Jon: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jongreen4/
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  Chatbots, agents & LLMs: the future of AI where bigger isn’t always better | Kirk Bresniker 30.07.2026 22min

  In 2022, a watershed moment changed the course of our relationship with AI forever, forcing us to reassess what ‘artificial intelligence’ means and its place in our world. Four years later, with generative AI and LLMs now mainstream in our lives, we must ask the question: what comes next?This week, as part of our mini-series celebrating 60 years of innovation with HPE Labs, Technology Now is joined by Kirk Bresniker, Chief Architect at HPE Labs to look to the future and discuss:Why AI is more than just a language modelThe issues with ever-increasing model sizes, and why specialised “expert models” could become the normWhat the differences are between large language models and energy-based modelsHow agentic AI and orchestration could enable the next generation of AI systems 🎧 Listen for a front-line view of where enterprise technology is headed.Technology Now is HPE’s flagship, award-winning, podcast that brings enterprise innovation to life - featuring real conversations with leaders, customers, and experts on how AI, cloud, and networking are shaping the future of business. Join hosts Michael Bird and Sam Jarrell each Thursday for a new episode on how technology drives real change for companies and consumers, and why everyone should be invested in the conversation.This episode is available on YouTube, Spotify, Apple and wherever you get your podcasts.About Kirk:https://www.linkedin.com/in/kirkbresniker/HPE Labs miniseries on Technology Now, celebrating 60 years of innovation:Episode 1 – Sixty years of innovation: how would we use a quantum computer? | Masoud Mohseni | https://hpe.lnk.to/quantumcomputer Episode 2 – Is encryption enough to protect our data? | Nigel Edwards | https://hpe.lnk.to/encryption Episode 3 – Chatbots, agents & LLMs: the future of AI where bigger isn’t always better | Kirk Bresniker | https://hpe.lnk.to/llm Episode 4 – How to power AI: smarter cooling and the future of energy | Cullen Bash | https://hpe.lnk.to/powering-AI Episode 5 – AI agents, superpowers and human judgement: the rise of agentic enterprise | Suparna Bhattacharya | https://hpe.lnk.to/agentic-enterprise
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  Vibe coding, bad data, and the fourth industrial revolution: the unstoppable advance of AI in 2026 | Bob Friday 23.07.2026 17min

  As agentic AI becomes more commonplace, the way in which we interact with our technology is fundamentally changing. Engineers are giving way to domain experts, as the role of IT in the workplace evolves faster than ever before. This week, Technology Now is joined by Bob Friday, Chief AI Officer HPE Networking to discuss: • What AI looks like in 2026, traditional models, agentic AI, and more• The surprising role of “bad” data in training models• How businesses and organisations must respond to the new AI-first world 🎧 Listen for a front-line view of where enterprise technology is headed. Technology Now is HPE’s flagship, award winning, podcast that brings enterprise innovation to life - featuring real conversations with leaders, customers, and experts on how AI, cloud, and networking are shaping the future of business. Join hosts Michael Bird and Sam Jarrell each Thursday for a new episode on how technology drives real change for companies and consumers, and why everyone should be invested in the conversation. This episode is available on YouTube, Spotify, Apple and wherever you get your podcasts.About Bob: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobfriday/
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  How agentic AI is powering smart cities and better public services | Robin Braun 16.07.2026 19min

  Sometimes the biggest challenge isn’t having enough data, it’s knowing what to do with it.  As agentic AI moves to real-world deployment, our cities and towns are becoming smarter. The mountain town of Vail, Colorado is just one such example of where artificial intelligence is helping streamline services, improve decision making and enhance experiences for residents and visitors alike. This week, Technology Now welcomes Robin Braun, VP, AI Business Development, Hybrid Cloud, to the show to find out:  • How AI has been successfully used in Vail to improve outcomes for staff and consumers• Why breaking down silos helps instigate necessary communication between departments• Why AI is more than just a productivity tool, it’s an essential part of modern day infrastructure 🎧 Listen for a front-line view of where enterprise technology is headed. Technology Now is HPE’s flagship, award winning, podcast that brings enterprise innovation to life - featuring real conversations with leaders, customers, and experts on how AI, cloud, and networking are shaping the future of business. Join hosts Michael Bird and Sam Jarrell each Thursday for a new episode on how technology drives real change for companies and consumers, and why everyone should be invested in the conversation. This episode is available on YouTube, Spotify, Apple and wherever you get your podcasts.About Robin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robinbraun/
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  Faster attacks, smarter defence, and the necessity of Zero Trust: cybersecurity in the age of AI | Jaye Tillson 09.07.2026 19min

  Zero Trust has transitioned from buzzword to basic necessity. As AI has transformed the cybersecurity landscape, becoming a tool for both attack and defence, organisations are being forced to rethink how thy protect themselves, their users, and their networks. Technology Now welcomes back friend of the show Jaye Tillson, CTO Security and HPE Distinguished Technologist to discuss:• The impact of AI on cyber threats as well as cybersecurity• How Zero Trust can contain breeches if they cannot be prevented entirely• Why limited access is more important than ever in a distributed network🎧 Listen for a front-line view of where enterprise technology is headed.Technology Now is HPE’s flagship, award winning, podcast that brings enterprise innovation to life - featuring real conversations with leaders, customers, and experts on how AI, cloud, and networking are shaping the future of business. Join hosts Michael Bird and Sam Jarrell each Thursday for a new episode on how technology drives real change for companies and consumers, and why everyone should be invested in the conversation.This episode is available on YouTube, Spotify, Apple and wherever you get your podcasts.About Jaye: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaye-tillson/
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  Quiet, more efficient, and liquid cooled: the future of data centres in the age of AI | Jason Zeiler 02.07.2026 19min

  AI is making our technology smarter… but it’s also making it much, much hotter. With higher demand for HPC and enterprise AI, data centres are having to adapt to meet the changing demands on the modern world. This week, Technology Now is joined by Jason Zeiler Principal Product Manager for Next Generation Infrastructure and HPC/AI Liquid Cooling at HPE to find out:• The efficiency benefits of liquid cooling compared to air cooling and why that isn’t always enough to convince enterprises to switch• Whether future data centres will be built from first principles around liquid cooling infrastructure• How higher operating temperatures are feeding back into microchip manufacturers’ designs for the next generation of chips🎧 Listen for a front-line view of where enterprise technology is headed.Technology Now is HPE’s flagship, award winning, podcast that brings enterprise innovation to life - featuring real conversations with leaders, customers, and experts on how AI, cloud, and networking are shaping the future of business. Join hosts Michael Bird and Sam Jarrell each Thursday for a new episode on how technology drives real change for companies and consumers, and why everyone should be invested in the conversation.This episode is available on YouTube, Spotify, Apple and wherever you get your podcasts.Sources: https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/electricity-consumption-by-data-centres-2020-2035
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  Self-driving, intelligent, and built for AI: the future of networking in the 2020s | Rami Rahim 25.06.2026 22min

  Recorded in front of a live studio audience at HPE Discover 2026, Michael Bird talks to EVP, President and General Manager of HPE Networking, Rami Rahim, about the future of our network infrastructure. Key takeaways include:What self-driving networks really are, why they are important and how driving business impactHow trust can be a barrier to the adoption of self-driving networks, and how this can be overcomeTop ways AI in our networks benefit IT professionals around the world🎧 Listen for a front-line view of where enterprise technology is headed. Technology Now is HPE’s flagship, award winning, podcast that brings enterprise innovation to life - featuring real conversations with leaders, customers, and experts on how AI, cloud, and networking are shaping the future of business. Join hosts Michael Bird and Sam Jarrell each Thursday for a new episode on how technology drives real change for companies and consumers, and why everyone should be invested in the conversation.This episode is available on YouTube, Spotify, Apple and wherever you get your podcasts.About Rami: https://www.hpe.com/uk/en/leadership-bios/rami-rahim.html
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  AI, Cloud, and What’s Next: Key Takeaways from HPE Discover 2026 | Antonio Neri 18.06.2026 18min

  What’s changing in enterprise tech - and what should leaders be preparing for next?Recorded live at HPE Discover 2026, Michael Bird takes HPE CEO Antonio Neri on a gondola ride the Venetian Resort Las Vegas to explore:How AI is reshaping infrastructure and operationsThe evolving role of networking in the AI eraWhat organizations should prioritize in the next 12 months🎧 Listen for a front-line view of where enterprise technology is headed.Technology Now is HPE’s flagship, award winning, podcast that brings enterprise innovation to life - featuring real conversations with leaders, customers, and experts on how AI, cloud, and networking are shaping the future of business. Join hosts Michael Bird and Sam Jarrell each Thursday for a new episode on how technology drives real change for companies and consumers, and why everyone should be invested in the conversation.This episode is available on YouTube, Spotify, Apple and wherever you get your podcasts.About Antonio Neri: https://www.hpe.com/uk/en/leadership-bios/antonio-neri.html
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  Are we ready for the quantum age of computing? | Nigel Edwards 11.06.2026 19min

  Are we prepared for the deployment of a functional quantum computer? This week, Technology Now is returning to the topic of post quantum cryptography. We ask why the deadline for migrating to PQC enabled systems has been moved up, we discover what a quantum computer actually needs to be cryptographically relevant, and we pose the question: when it comes to migrating your systems to quantum resistant forms of encryption, could it already be too late for some people to start?This is Technology Now, a weekly show from Hewlett Packard Enterprise. Every week, hosts Michael Bird and Sam Jarrell look at a story that's been making headlines, take a look at the technology behind it, and explain why it matters to organizations.
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  Are our networks ready for AI? | AE Natarajan 04.06.2026 18min

  How is AI forcing our networks to change? This week, Technology Now is diving into the world of network architecture and asking how AI is forcing us to rethink what it looks like. We ask how AI requirements are different to regular computing, we explore why this makes cacheing obsolete, and we ask how our networks are going to continue changing into the future to cope with the demands of our new AI native world. AE Natarajan, SVP, general Manager for Routing Infrastructure Solutions, HPE networking, tells us more.This is Technology Now, a weekly show from Hewlett Packard Enterprise. Every week, hosts Michael Bird and Sam Jarrell look at a story that's been making headlines, take a look at the technology behind it, and explain why it matters to organizations.About AE: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ae-natarajan-b79202/
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  Powering the UK's fastest supercomputer: Isambard AI 28.05.2026 16min

  How much power does the UK’s fastest supercomputer use? This week, Technology Now returns to Isambard AI, the UK’s most powerful supercomputer to find out how you run such a machine. We will explore how much energy it uses, how the system stays cool, and we ask if there are any planned future developments which could increase efficiency. Dr Emma Rose, Centre Manager for the Bristol Centre for Supercomputing, tells us more.This is Technology Now, a weekly show from Hewlett Packard Enterprise. Every week, hosts Michael Bird and Sam Jarrell look at a story that's been making headlines, take a look at the technology behind it, and explain why it matters to organizations. This episode is available in both video and audio formats.About Emma: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-rose-7951768a/
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  Inside the UK's fastest supercomputer: Isambard AI 21.05.2026 21min

  Hidden in the corner of a carpark in Bristol lies Isambard AI, the UK’s fastest supercomputer. This week, Technology Now is visiting Isambard AI to find out how the system works, how it was designed and assembled in a modular way, and to discover what sort of projects it runs. Professor Simon McIntosh-Smith, Director of the Bristol Centre for Supercomputing, tells us more.This is Technology Now, a weekly show from Hewlett Packard Enterprise. Every week, hosts Michael Bird and Sam Jarrell look at a story that's been making headlines, take a look at the technology behind it, and explain why it matters to organizations. This episode is available in both video and audio formats.About Simon:https://www.linkedin.com/in/simonmcintoshsmith/Sources:https://www.bristol.ac.uk/research/centres/bristol-supercomputing/articles/2025/isambard-ai-launches-july-2025.htmlhttps://www.uswitch.com/broadband/studies/broadband-speed-statistics/
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  Is encryption enough to protect our data? | Nigel Edwards 14.05.2026 18min

  How safe is our data from internal threats? This week, Technology Now dives into the world of confidential computing. We ask why regular encryption when data is at rest or in transit might not be enough, we explore how confidential computing works to keep our data safer, and we examine why this concept is so important in the first place. Dr Nigel Edwards, Director of the Security Lab at HPE Labs, tells us more.This is Technology Now, a weekly show from Hewlett Packard Enterprise. Every week, hosts Michael Bird and Sam Jarrell look at a story that's been making headlines, take a look at the technology behind it, and explain why it matters to organizations.About Nigel:https://www.linkedin.com/in/nigel-edwards-170591/HPE Labs miniseries on Technology Now, celebrating 60 years of innovation:Episode 1 – Sixty years of innovation: how would we use a quantum computer? | Masoud Mohseni | https://hpe.lnk.to/quantumcomputer Episode 2 – Is encryption enough to protect our data? | Nigel Edwards | https://hpe.lnk.to/encryption Episode 3 – Chatbots, agents & LLMs: the future of AI where bigger isn’t always better | Kirk Bresniker | https://hpe.lnk.to/llm Episode 4 – How to power AI: smarter cooling and the future of energy | Cullen Bash | https://hpe.lnk.to/powering-AI Episode 5 – AI agents, superpowers and human judgement: the rise of agentic enterprise | Suparna Bhattacharya | https://hpe.lnk.to/agentic-enterprise
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  Can we protect ourselves from AI-powered cybercrime? | David Hughes 07.05.2026 20min

  Are we ready for emerging cybersecurity threats in the world of AI? This week, Technology Now looks at how AI has changed the world of cybersecurity for both the good and the bad. We ask how AI is harnessed by attackers to try and gain access to our systems while also exploring how AI can be used defensively too. David Hughes, SVP SASE Security, HPE Networking, tells us more. This is Technology Now, a weekly show from Hewlett Packard Enterprise. Every week, hosts Michael Bird and Sam Jarrell look at a story that's been making headlines, take a look at the technology behind it, and explain why it matters to organizations.About David: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-hughes-42751636/Sources: https://www.totalassure.com/blog/cyber-attack-statistics-by-year-2020-2025