Conversations: Psychology & Relationships

Spotting the psychopaths, sadists and narcissists in our lives and how to get rid of them 10.04.2026 52min

Toxic people are around us in our workplaces, our families and our dating lives. Research psychologist Leanne ten Brinke is here to tell you how to spot them, and get rid of them from your orbit. Leanne ten Brinke is a research psychologist whose special area of expertise is what she calls 'dark personality types'. These are particularly cruel, malicious, manipulative people who lack empathy, people who are psychopaths, narcissists or sadists. Psychologists estimate than one per cent of any population shows serious levels of psychopathy. They walk among us in our workplaces and in our relationships, they could be an gaslighting partner, a narcissistic parent or a colleague who's a bully. There are also more serious cases, like abusive husbands or murderous mothers. Leanne also makes the point that any one of us is capable of losing our moral bearings or enabling malicious people by cheering them on, hiring them or voting them into office. But there are ways to resist them, and make your own life the better for it. Poisonous People: psychopathy, narcissism, manipulation, sadism: how to resist them and improve your life is published by Simon & Schuster Australia. This episode of Conversations was produced by Meggie Morris. Executive Producer is Nicola Harrison. It explores toxic relationships, is my partner a narcissist, what to do about my narcissist mother, what to do about my toxic boss, how many psychopaths are there, sadism, serial killers, morality, amorality, Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, sociopath, Patric Gagne, anti-social personality disorders, thriller, scammers, dating world, escaping abuse, peaceful living, finding peace. To binge even more great episodes of the Conversations podcast with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

Moana Hope on a life spent caring for others and re-learning how to love 11.05.2026 53min

Former AFLW star Moana Hope has spent her life caring for others, including her dying father and her beloved sister Vinny, who has an intellectual disability. It wasn't until Mo was in her 30s that she realised she needed to learn how to love herself. Content Warning: this episode of Conversations contains discussion of childhood abuse, domestic violence and suicidal ideation. Moana Hope grew up with 13 siblings in a two-bedroom housing commission home in Melbourne's north west. As a little girl, she played football with the boys and then with grown women, and in her 20s she took on full-time caring responsibilities for two of her nephews, as well as her sister, who lives with an intellectual disability. This backstory, along with her natural talent for the game and charisma off the field, helped Mo stand out as a star of the women's game when the AFLW was launched in 2017. Mo was a marquee player for Collingwood in the women's debut season. But she retired earlier than she had planned to. Post-AFLW, Mo had a lot of time to think about herself outside of football, and about the chaos and violence that was normalised in her childhood home. But it wasn't until Mo became a mother herself, that she fully reckoned with her understanding of love. Mo shares intimate snippets from her life on Instagram. This episode of Conversations was produced by Meggie Morris. Executive Producer is Eliza Kirsch. It explores AFL, the Pies, Melbourne, Glenroy, Maori heritage, Cancer, death, grief, caring, queerness, footy, Hawthorne, women's sports, cricket, mother daughter relationships, mother father relationships, personal work, therapy, inner child work, sisterhood, engineering, female business owners, motherhood, sons and mothers, violence, abuse, financial abuse, Essendon, GWS, Richmond, Adelaide. To binge even more great episodes of the Conversations podcast with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

Lessons in living, grief and love from the Lebanese Civil War 06.05.2026 53min

Antoun Issa grew up quietly aware of a profound grief in his mother's eyes. As an adult, after living and working in the Middle East, he finally knew how to ask her about surviving the Lebanese Civil War. Antoun is a journalist who grew up in the outer suburbs of Melbourne, after his parents had escaped the civil war in Lebanon in the 1970s. Growing up in Craigieburn as the baby of the family, Antoun was particularly close with his mother. He was always conscious of a deep sadness in his mother's eyes, but was wary of asking her too many questions. As an adult, Antoun went to live and work in Lebanon. There, in the Middle East, where he worked as a journalist, Antoun saw firsthand what happens when the trajectory of human life is interrupted by conflict and violence. Upon returning home to Australia, he was finally ready to ask his mother about the source of her quiet and enduring grief, and what came out of her was a remarkable story of true love, true loss and resilience. Upon returning home to Australia, he was finally ready to ask his mother about the source of her quiet and enduring grief, and what came out of her was a remarkable story of true love, true loss and resilience. REBIRTH: A Love Story from the Depths of War is published by Hachette. This episode of Conversations was produced by Meggie Morris. Executive Producer is Eliza Kirsch. It explores the Middle East, War, Conflict, Beiruit, Israel, PLO, Palestine, United States, civil war, conflict, refugees, religious conflict, Lebanese Christians, Sunni Muslims, Shia Muslims, Mountains, Maronite Christians, politics and religion, proxy wars, Iran, Iraq, Arab-Isreali, Saudi, Cold War, Arab Cold War, Taif Agreement, political power, relationship, origin story, writing, books, memoir, novel, survival, death, violence, sliding doors. To binge even more great episodes of the Conversations podcast with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

Transforming trauma with Dr Gabor Maté 27.02.2025 48min

The renowned physician discusses the role of trauma in our lives, showing up as addiction, chronic disease and mental illness — and how recognising his own led to true healing. To binge even more great episodes of the Conversation podcast with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities. Dr Gabor Maté was born in Budapest to a Jewish family, just before Nazi tanks rolled into the city. His mother risked handing him to a stranger on the street to try and get him to safety. Many years later, after establishing himself as a successful physician in Canada, Gabor looked at the problems in his work and marriage and wondered if they were linked to that early trauma. He uses his own experiences as the test case for the effects of trauma on the body and is now internationally renowned for arguing that trauma casts a long shadow in our lives, showing up in addiction, ADHD, chronic disease and mental illness. Gabor argues that realising the impact of trauma of all kinds allows for real healing — as has happened in his own life. Dr Gabor Maté's new book written with Daniel Maté is called The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness and Healing in a Toxic Culture and is published by Penguin Random House. This episode of Conversations deals with trauma, early childhood trauma, mental illness, addiction, ADHD, chronic illness, epic life stories, origin stories, healing, autoimmune disease, and therapy.

Finding the erotic in everyday life with Esther Perel 07.06.2019 52min

Esther is a therapist who spent years studying intimacy, monogamy and sexuality. She became the world's most well-known expert on modern love When Esther was a teenager she was voraciously curious about human behaviour. She thought she'd become a journalist or a translator, but instead she grew up to become the world's most famous contemporary psychotherapist. Esther became known around the world after the release of her podcast "Where Should We Begin?" in which she counsels real-life couples who are on the brink of marital breakdown. In her sessions she's often exploring the tension between the need for security in a relationship, and the need for some distance and a sense of adventure, to keep the spark alive. Esther says when you choose a partner you choose a story, and by doing so, you're often recruited for a part you never expected to play. Further information The State of Affairs: Rethinking Infidelity is published by Yellow Kite Books Listen to the podcast Where Should We Begin? To binge even more great episodes of the ‘Conversations podcast’ with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, singers, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

Algorithms, accountability and the 'manosphere'—empowering men to be the solution 10.06.2026 53min

Clinical psychologist and men's mental health researcher Zac Seidler on how boys are being fed increasingly inflammatory content online, and what men can do IRL to offer a version of masculinity that is healthy and vulnerable, instead of hard and dangerous. Many young men are taking a journey on the internet right now which starts with inoffensive self-improvement videos on platforms like YouTube and TikTok, but quickly becomes something else entirely. Young guys are searching the internet for fitness, grooming or relationship advice, looking for self-esteem and self-discipline. The algorithm then tries to sustain their attention by offering them more inflammatory and more dangerous content, presented by influencers with cigars and sunglasses, who give them an ideology that blames women for all of their problems. This is the loose digital ecosystem that has been named the 'manosphere', and it's leading people to wonder what exactly is going on with men that they're being drawn into a dark place and ideology that completely alienates them from women and from real life experience. Zac Seidler is a clinical psychologist and the director of research at Movember, the men's mental health charity, and he is particularly interested in men's issues. Zac has conducted some world-first research into this online world, asking the questions 'What need is this content meeting?', and how can men be empowered to pull themselves, their sons and their mates out of this dangerous cycle. Keep up to date with the research Zac is doing via Movember, the leading charity changing the face of men's health. This episode of Conversations was produced by Meggie Morris. Executive Producer was Eliza Kirsch. It explores manhood, masculinity, toxic masculinity, sons, fatherhood, men's mental health, men's suicide rates, depression, Andrew Tate, Jordan Peterson, Myron Gaines, Rollo, Joe Rogan, social media algorithms, Instagram, chronically online, touch grass, grief, death, sex and relationships, isolation, vulnerability, how to talk openly about mental health struggles, men and boys, mothers and sons, Looksmaxxing, Clavicular, becoming a father, marriage, love, husbands, how to be a better man, empathetic accountability, Breadtube, Contrapoints, Hbomberguy, and PhilosophyTube. To binge even more great episodes of the Conversations podcast with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

Meet Ash Barty's mindset coach — Ben Crowe 01.07.2021 53min

How does Ben Crowe get elite athletes to the top of their game? What he asks footballers, surfers and tennis players to do seems counter intuitive, and a lot of the work happens off the field. (R) Ben Crowe is a mindset coach who has worked with elite athletes like surfer Steph Gilmore, tennis superstar Ash Barty, and the Richmond Football Club. But Ben's method of coaching seems counter-intuitive. Rather than telling these athletes they're the best, he encourages them to own their flaws, make sense of their life stories off the field, prioritising vulnerability and human connection, so they can take both wins and losses in their stride. Further information Originally broadcast in July 2021. Ben Crowe's new book, Where the Light Gets In, will be published by HarperCollins in January 2026. This episode of Conversations was produced by Michelle Ransom Hughes, executive producer was Carmel Rooney. It explores sport, NBA, basketball, football, Bayern, David Beckham, Hawks, Tigers, Magpies, Warriors, Tottenham, Jake Weatherald, Champions League, Wimbledon, Tennis Open, US Open, Australian Open, Arsenal, UCL, sports trading, UEFA, FIFA, mindset coaching, positive, books, writing, origin story, grief, death of a father.

Reframing identity through motherhood and marriage with Glennon Doyle 26.06.2020 51min

Glennon made a big name for herself in the US as a ‘Christian mommy blogger’ with her candid and often hilarious writing when she fell wildly in love with U.S Women's Soccer star Abby Wambach Alongside her blackly funny posts about the challenges of parenting, Glennon wrote about her recovery from alcoholism and bulimia. She encouraged her growing tribe of followers to feel their feelings rather than numbing them. Glennon then used her platform to create an all-women-led non profit organization. Together Rising has raised $27 million for women, families, and children in crisis. A few years ago Glennon's husband Craig confessed he'd been unfaithful to her for years. She decided to stay in the marriage and fight for it. In 2017 Glennon was at a conference launching her book Love Warrior about recommitting to her marriage. When she saw US women’s soccer star, Abby Wambach, Glennon immediately fell madly in love. She upended her life to be with her, and had to rethink many of her ideas about marriage and motherhood in the process. Further information Untamed: Stop Pleasing and Start Living is published by Vermillion Learn more about Together Rising To binge even more great episodes of the ‘Conversations podcast’ with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, singers, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

The Indigenous psychologist doing things differently - From the Pilbara to Perth and beyond 30.10.2024 53min

Dr Tracy Westerman grew up in the Pilbara, where suicide and mental health issues have deeply scarred Indigenous communities. So this Nyamal woman decided to do something about it. Nyamal woman Tracy Westerman grew up in some of the most remote parts of Western Australia, moving from a station to a town called Useless Loop, eventually landing in the mining town of Tom Price. Tracy, the daughter of an Aboriginal mother and a white father, became the first person who was educated entirely in Tom Price, from kindergarten to year 12, to go on to University. When she arrived in Perth, she had never been on a bus or on an escalator, but she was fired up to study psychology. Tracy wanted to use the skills she learned in the city to deliver practical mental health care to Aboriginal people, and to help entire communities reeling from the impact of suicide and other mental health issues. Along the way to obtaining her doctorate, Tracy has become a businesswoman, the WA Australian of the year, and she was awarded an Order of Australia Medal. Her next mission is to build an army of Indigenous psychologists to continue the work she's already started. Further information Jilya is published by University of Queensland Press. You can learn more about Dr Westerman's work here. To binge even more great episodes of the ‘Conversations podcast’ with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, singers, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities. Nyamal woman Tracy Westerman grew up in some of the most remote parts of Western Australia, moving from a station to a town called Useless Loop, eventually landing in the mining town of Tom Price. Tracy, the daughter of an Aboriginal mother and a white father, became the first person educated entirely in Tom Price, from kindergarten to year 12, to go on to University. When she arrived in Perth, she had never been on a bus or on an escalator, but she was fired up to study psychology. Tracy wanted to use the skills she learned in the city to deliver practical mental health care to Aboriginal people, and to help entire communities reeling from the impact of suicide and other mental health issues. Along the way to obtaining her doctorate, Tracy has become a businesswoman, the WA Australian of the year, and she was awarded an Order of Australia Medal. Her next mission is to build an army of Indigenous psychologists to continue the work she's already started. This episode of Conversations discusses mental health care, mental health struggles, First Nations mental health, remote communities, interracial relationships, psychology, university, PhD study, tertiary education, the Pilbara, Nyamal, traditional owners, Indigenous psychologist.

The ladder out of depression with psychiatrist Ian Hickie 16.11.2023 52min

Professor Ian Hickie has spent decades trying to understand clinical depression. Where does it come from? What role do genes play? And most importantly – what works to release its chokehold? Ian Hickie has spent his career trying to help people at their darkest times. He's a psychiatrist who is particularly passionate about taming the black dog of depression. Depression is not a simple puzzle to solve. Ian has seen how the right medical treatment can lift someone out of even the worst depression; but he has also tried to answer some of the most important questions about clinical depression. Is it genetic? Is it caused by trauma? What role do the seasons play? Why is long COVID a risk factor in developing depression? And most importantly – what works to release its hold on someone? Further information The Devil You Knew is published by Penguin Random House To binge even more great episodes of the ‘Conversations podcast’ with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, singers, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

Situationships, risks and growing pains — Jemma Sbeg on surviving your 20s 13.05.2025 52min

From relationships and loneliness, to indecision and burnout, Jemma Sbeg is your guide to navigating your 20s, and looking back on that decade with a new perspective. When Jemma Sbeg started recording a podcast in the back of her Subaru about her quarter life crisis, she had no idea just how many people she would reach. But other people her age were desperate for guidance through their 20s - a decade a lot of us romanticise before we get there, and after we leave. It's a decade of massive growth for humans, when we make big decisions about relationships, careers and our own identities, but Jemma felt like she had no idea HOW to make the right choices. She had studied psychology at university, and so looked to psychological research papers to help her and her friends navigate attraction, heartbreak, friendship, imposter syndrome, career anxiety, burn out, mental health and living a happy life. Jemma's biggest lesson is realising while time is finite, we do have so much of it to "figure it out", and chances are you'll still be working many things out in your 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s. Person in Progress: A Roadmap to the Psychology of Your 20s is published by Hachette Australia. Jemma's podcast is called The Psychology of your 20s. If you liked this episode of Conversations, you might also enjoy listening to Doctor Hilton Koppe on his experience of PTSD, journalist Ros Thomas on her research into loneliness or psychologist Dr Tracy Westerman on psychology in remote Australia. To binge even more great episodes of the Conversation podcast with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities. This episode of Conversations explores psychology, podcasts, research, books, writing, anxiety, TikTok, social media, ADHD, self-diagnosis, growing up, how to survive your 20s, stay at home dads, heartbreak, mortality, death anxiety, social anxiety, university, what to study, how to get over heartbreak, first loves, building a career in media.

The healing power of dogs 20.04.2020 46min

Kate Leaver became fascinated by the curative qualities of dogs after her Shih Tzu Bertie helped her through her darkest days

The secret psychosis of a first-time mother 03.06.2024 51min

When psychologist Ariane Beeston started having delusions after the birth of her son, and hallucinating that he was a dragon, she had to learn how to become the patient. Ariane Beeston thought that when her son was born, she would feel that immediate rush of love that everyone told her to expect, and that motherhood would come naturally to her. But that's not what happened. Instead, Ariane started having delusions about her own death, she became paranoid that social services would take her child away from her, and she hallucinated that her baby boy was actually a dragon. For months, Ariane hid her symptoms, afraid and ashamed of what she was feeling and seeing. When she gathered the courage to ask for help, Ariane, a trained psychologist, had to learn how to become the patient, as she navigated a diagnosis of postpartum psychosis. Further information Because I'm Not Myself You See is published by Black Inc. Books Resources COPE: Centre of Perinatal Excellence Support lines and resources recommended by COPE PANDA National Helpline 1300 726 306 — available Monday to Friday, 9am to 7.30pm, Saturday, 9am to 4pm AEST/AEDT. PANDA: Perinatal Anxiety and Depression Australia post natal psychosis information Pregnancy Birth Baby information on postpartum psychosis (Australian Government website) Gidget Foundation Australia (focuses on emotional wellbeing of expectant parents) Postpartum psychosis fact sheet from COPE Postpartum psychosis information (Royal Women's Hospital Melbourne) To binge even more great episodes of the ‘Conversations podcast’ with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, singers, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

From Yugoslavia to Australia — Jelena Dokic on tennis and the truth 08.11.2024 52min

Jelena Dokic overcame adversity, poverty and violence to rise to the top of the tennis world. Years later, her revelations about her father's abuse stunned the world. (CW: discussion of domestic violence and coercive control). Jelena Dokic overcame adversity, poverty and violence to rise to the top of the tennis world. Years later, her revelations about her father's abuse stunned the world. (CW: discussion of domestic violence and coercive control). After arriving in Australia with her family as a refugee, Jelena Dokic became a tennis champion while still a teenager. But her father’s drunken outbursts at Jelena’s tournaments got even more headlines than her playing. What the world didn’t know was that Jelena’s father was also violently assaulting her and had been since the day she first picked up a tennis racquet. Jelena finally found the courage to tell the truth about what happened to her, but she discovered that was only the first step in escaping her father. Further information The documentary Unbreakable is out now Help and support is always available You can call 1800 Respect on 1800 737 732 Lifeline on 13 11 14 Butterfly Foundation on 1800 33 4673 Content warning: this episode of Conversations contains discussion about domestic violence and coercive control. This episode of Conversations also talks about sport, training, family, origin stories, parenting, relationships, childhood trauma, sports commentary, online trolls, refugees, security, control, family violence, therapy, mental health, identity, disordered eating, books, documentary film, reflection, culture, meaning, Australian, counselling, conversational story, and memoir. To binge even more great episodes of the ‘Conversations podcast’ with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, singers, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

Philippa Perry says yes to feelings 04.02.2021 50min

Philippa's parents wanted her to move in the 'right' circles, so they sent her to a Swiss finishing school. Instead she became a debt collector, went to Hamburger University then became a psychotherapist

Trichotillomania (compulsive hair pulling) and me 31.01.2024 48min

As a teenager Adele Dumont started pulling out her hair from the root. Eventually she created a bald spot the size of a 20-cent piece at the crown of her head. Adele would sometimes enter a trancelike state, covertly sitting on her bathroom floor, picking at her scalp for hours on end. The urge to pull at her hair was uncontrollable, and secret. When Adele finally put a name to her behaviour, she learnt that trichotillomania has a complex history and psychological understanding, much of which remains unknown. Further information The Pulling is published by Scribe Some helpful resources on trichotillomania include Trich Stop and The TLC Foundation for Body-Focused Repetitive Behaviours To binge even more great episodes of the ‘Conversations podcast’ with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, singers, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

Lessons from the world's longest study on happiness: Dr Robert Waldinger 25.08.2023 53min

Dr Robert Waldinger on what it takes to live a happy life. Robert Waldinger has spent most of his working life trying to understand the secret to human happiness. He’s Professor of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School and the Director of the Harvard Study of Adult Development. The project has been tracking what makes for a joyful life for more than eight decades and points to meaningful relationships as the key to human fulfilment. Bob tries to apply the insights from the study to his own life, where beyond his research, he’s also a Zen priest. Further information The Good Life: Lessons from the World's Longest Study on Happiness is published by Penguin To binge even more great episodes of the ‘Conversations podcast’ with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, singers, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.

Elizabeth Gilbert's keys to a big, creative life 08.03.2016 51min

Liz is probably best known for her international best-seller Eat, Pray, Love.

Nourishing the heart 24.02.2022 52min

Psychiatrist Dr Warren Ward treats patients who are severely ill with eating disorders. Understanding the mystery of human nature has driven him since he was a young doctor, and has led him down a strange path into examining the love lives of philosophers

Penny Moodie's compulsive and compelling life 25.10.2023 52min

Penny grew up consumed by catastrophic thoughts and developed habits to try to ward off impending doom. It turned out she had been living with obsessive compulsive disorder for 30 years Penny Moodie grew up consumed by catastrophic thoughts and ideas - that her parents would die in a car crash, that her mother was not really her mother, or that she had somehow contracted HIV aids. It's not unusual for children to worry about their parents and their own safety, but for Penny these anxieties went much further. She thought she could ward off catastrophes by doing specific things, by developing compulsive behaviours and routines. It turns out, Penny had been living obsessive compulsive disorder for more than 30 years before she was diagnosed. Only recently has Penny been able to understand what she's truly afraid of, to discard her constant state of anxiety and to finally take joy in the simple pleasures of life. Further information The Joy Thief: How OCD steals your happiness and how to get it back is published by Allen & Unwin To binge even more great episodes of the ‘Conversations podcast’ with Richard Fidler and Sarah Kanowski go the ABC listen app (Australia) or wherever you get your podcasts. There you’ll find hundreds of the best thought-provoking interviews with authors, writers, artists, politicians, singers, psychologists, musicians, and celebrities.