Out and Back
Jacob Thomson and Rory Linkletter
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Rory Linkletter and Jacob Thomson, professional marathoners based in Flagstaff, Arizona, share stories from their high-mileage training, race travel, and the ups and downs of competing on the world stage. They discuss running culture, community, and the random moments between workouts, offering listeners a behind-the-scenes look at the marathon lifestyle.
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#49 Truett Hanes on Chasing the OTQ and Going All In on a Goal That Scares You 09.08.2026 1ч 9минBuy merch: https://outandback.shop/Truett Hanes is in Flagstaff for a three-week training camp, halfway through it when this was recorded, and it's the most structured he's ever approached running. You probably know him from the pull-up world record, the blue jean marathons, or the Leadville 100 buckle, but now he's locked in on one thing: the Olympic Trials qualifier. Rory coaches him through Let's Tango, and this conversation covers how someone who bulldozed their way to a 2:29 on pure willpower had to completely rethink their approach, what the training has looked like in Flagstaff, and why the jump from 2:30 to OTQ is a different animal than anything he's done before. They also get into the haters, his dad's 11-minute marathon PR at 58, what it actually means to call your shot publicly, and some genuinely good advice on storytelling and content for anyone trying to build an audience around a big goal.Goodr: Upgrade your eyewear by heading to goodr.com/OUTANDBACK to claim $10 off your first order.Aqua Omega: a high dose, concentrated omega-3 from sustainably sourced anchovies, third-party tested, no fish burps, and for every bottle sold they remove one pound of plastic from the ocean. Use code OUTNBACK for 20% off at myAquaOmega.com/outandbackMeteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off https://www.meteopace.com/redeem Code: OUTANDBACK https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACKMerch Store:https://outandback.shop/Coaching:Jacob’s Coaching WebsiteRory’s Coaching WebsiteJoin our newsletterJoin our Strava groupFollow us:Jacob’s YouTubeRory’s YouTube Out And Back YouTubeRory’s StravaJacob’s StravaRory’s InstagramJacob’s InstagramSandyBoy Productions -
#48 Vincent Ciattei on Winning the US 5000m Title, Training as a Miler at Altitude, and the Dark Sky Squad 30.07.2026 1ч 6минBuy merch: https://outandback.shop/Vincent Ciattei comes straight off USA Track and Field Championships in New York where he finished second in the 1500 by five hundredths of a second, sent a message to his college group chat saying he was winning the 5K the next day, and then did exactly that. First Dark Sky teammate on the pod, and one of the more interesting training conversations the show has had. Vincent is a 3:48 miler running 90-mile weeks at 7,000 feet, doing double threshold, hill circuits at Marshall Lake, and long tempos down in Camp Verde, and this year it all clicked. They get into what a training cycle actually looks like for a mid-distance guy, how he thinks about threshold intensity control, why the 5K is becoming a legitimate weapon for elite milers, what Dark Sky's massive training group brings out in each other, and the broader conversation around why the best Americans keep skipping USAs in off years and what could be done about it.Goodr: Upgrade your eyewear by heading to goodr.com/OUTANDBACK to claim $10 off your first order.Meteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off https://www.meteopace.com/redeem Code: OUTANDBACK https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACKJoin our Strava groupFollow us:Jacob’s YouTubeRory’s YouTube Out And Back YouTubeRory’s StravaJacob’s StravaRory’s InstagramJacob’s InstagramJacob’s Coaching WebsiteRory's Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy Productions
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#47 Between Reps: Josh Kerr's Record, USAs, and Training Updates 26.07.2026 1ч 4минMERCH: https://outandback.shop/Jacob and Rory are back in Flagstaff after weeks on the road, and Jacob gives an update on his Achilles: no pain in four weeks, mileage climbing back up, and marathon training officially back on. They dig into the Chicago Marathon field announcement, with Sharon Lokedi as the headline story and a stacked American men's field chasing fast times. Then Josh Kerr's mile world record takes over, from the race itself to whether he could go after the 1500m record next, and why USA Outdoor Championships keep losing their biggest names to Europe. They close out with listener questions on training locations, gear from their college days, favorite non-major marathons, and what kids at running camp do better than grown adults.https://www.thomsontraining.run/https://www.letstango.run/Goodr: Upgrade your eyewear by heading to goodr.com/OUTANDBACK to claim $10 off your first order.Meteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off https://www.meteopace.com/redeem Code: OUTANDBACK https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACK
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#46 Madey Dickson on Running 2:28 at Boston, Working Full Time as a Nurse, and Chasing Big Goals at Berlin 19.07.2026 58минMadey Dickson is a full-time ICU and ER nurse who runs 100 miles a week, smashed the OTQ by nine minutes at Boston, and won Puma's Project Three, all while working 12-hour shifts. Rory coaches her and they were teammates at BYU, where she was a middle distance runner who stumbled into the marathon almost by accident. They talk training around a nurse's schedule, self belief, the Berlin build, and what the 2028 Olympic Trials could look like for her.Goodr: Upgrade your eyewear by heading to goodr.com/OUTANDBACK to claim $10 off your first order.Join our Strava groupBuy merch: https://outandback.shop/Follow us:Jacob’s YouTubeRory’s YouTube Out And Back YouTubeRory’s StravaJacob’s StravaRory’s InstagramJacob’s InstagramJacob’s Coaching WebsiteRory's Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy Productions
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#45 Between Reps - Summer Heat Training, Josh Kerr's World Record Attempt, and Fall Marathon Field Rumors With Chris Striegel 12.07.2026 1ч 3минJacob, Rory, and Chris Striegel of the Life in Stride Podcast check in for a between reps episode packed with summer training talk and fall marathon buzz. They start with heat training -- what Chris is doing in Kentucky with a newborn, what Jacob survived in Orange Beach, and how to stop panicking about pace when it's 90 degrees and humid. They recap their Fourth of July races in Lexington and Rory's athlete Madey Dixon winning the downtown Flagstaff Mile in a course record. Then it's current events: Josh Kerr's world record attempt in the mile, Faith Kipyegon's first 1500 loss in five years to Nikki Hiltz, and what to watch at USA Track and Field Championships. They close out with fall marathon field speculation, Vinny Mauri's treadmill long run hype, and whether Athing Mu has quietly stepped away from the sport.Follow ChrisJoin our Strava groupBuy merch: https://outandback.shop/Follow us:Jacob’s YouTubeRory’s YouTube Out And Back YouTubeRory’s StravaJacob’s StravaRory’s InstagramJacob’s InstagramJacob’s Coaching WebsiteRory's Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy Productions
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#44 NAZ Elite Coach Jack Mullaney on Building Team Culture, Alex Masai's Breakout, and Marathon Training Philosophy 05.07.2026 1ч 13минJack Mullaney, head coach of NAZ Elite, joins Jacob and Rory at the Run Flagstaff studio for episode 44. Jack walked into one of the most storied professional running programs in the country two and a half years ago as a first-time head coach, inheriting a team mid-transition and figuring out how to build something that felt like his own. He talks about how he navigated that, what his five C's of coaching actually look like in practice, and why connection is the foundation he keeps coming back to. The conversation gets into the weeds on training philosophy: his three non-negotiables, why he's skeptical of silver bullet trends, and how he thinks about keeping all paces present year-round. They also deep dive into specifics of some of Jack's athletes' training and performances. Meteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off MeteoPace Pro at https://www.meteopace.com/redeem Code: OUTANDBACK https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACKGoodr: Upgrade your eyewear by heading to goodr.com/OUTANDBACK to claim $10 off your first order.Join our Strava groupBuy merch: https://outandback.shop/Follow us:Jacob’s YouTubeRory’s YouTube Out And Back YouTubeRory’s StravaJacob’s StravaRory’s InstagramJacob’s InstagramJacob’s Coaching WebsiteRory's Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy Productions
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#43 Steph Bruce on 20 Years as a Pro, Founding Picky Bars, the Stamata Project, and What Comes Next 28.06.2026 59минSteph Bruce joins Jacob and Rory at the new Run Flagstaff studio for episode 43 -- recorded six days after she and Rory both ran the Broken Arrow Sky Race Ascent. They start there, comparing notes on what is genuinely the hardest race either of them has ever done, and why neither of them were as prepared as they thought. From there the conversation opens up into Steph's full arc: the origin of Picky Bars, built out of a Eugene apartment with Lauren Fleshman and Jesse Thomas and eventually sold to Laird Hamilton's company; the NAZ Elite years and what that team did to change how professional running groups operate; her current role leading the Tracksmith Stamata project, which supports women chasing the Olympic Trials qualifier; and where she sees herself going now that trail and uphill racing have entered the picture. Nine Olympic Trials, a 15:17 5K, a 2:27 marathon, and she's still figuring out what's next. Honest, funny, and worth the full listen.Meteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off MeteoPace Pro at https://www.meteopace.com/redeem Code: OUTANDBACK https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACKThis episode is brought to you in part by Amazfit. Rory wore the Amazfit T-Rex 3 at Broken Arrow, where pace data goes out the window and elevation, distance, and heart rate are all that matter. Check out his full Broken Arrow race video on his personal YouTube channel here -- one of the best produced videos he's put out yet.Join our Strava groupBuy merch: https://outandback.shop/Follow us:Jacob’s YouTubeRory’s YouTube Out And Back YouTubeRory’s StravaJacob’s StravaRory’s InstagramJacob’s InstagramJacob’s Coaching WebsiteRory's Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy Productions
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#42 Listener Q & A - Broken Arrow & MRI Update 21.06.2026 1ч 18минNEW MERCH: https://outandback.shop/Jacob and Rory check in on what's been a rocky few weeks for Jacob's Achilles -- paratendon inflammation that's forced him to pull most of his summer road races and lean hard into cross training. Rory previews his Broken Arrow Sky Race Ascent debut, his first pro trail outing, and explains why he picked the climb over a longer technical race. They also run through current events: Time's Most Influential list snubbing Noah Lyles, Cape Town joining the World Marathon Majors, the Kenyan takeover of NCAA distance running, and that bicarb ad. Then it's a full listener Q&A -- 23 questions covering rest weeks, double threshold training, shoe contracts, beer mile predictions, podcast white whales, and the worst training advice circulating online right now.goodr: Upgrade your eyewear by heading to goodr.com/OUTANDBACK to claim $10 off your first order.Meteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off MeteoPace Pro at https://www.meteopace.com/redeem Code: OUTANDBACK https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACKKava Haven: All the Buzz, None of the Booze — get 15% off your first order at http://kavahaven.com/outandback Code: OUTANDBACK15 Join our Strava groupBuy merch: https://outandback.shop/Follow us:Jacob’s YouTubeRory’s YouTube Out And Back YouTubeRory’s StravaJacob’s StravaRory’s InstagramJacob’s InstagramJacob’s Coaching WebsiteRory's Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy Productions
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#41 Brady Holmer - High Carb Evidence, Ketone, and How to Actually Sleep Before a Race 14.06.2026 1ч 20минBrady Holmer is back for his third appearance, which officially makes him the most tenured guest in Out and Back history. He's a week out from Grandma's Marathon, coming off a stress injury and a training block built around high bike volume, durability workouts, and progression long runs in the Texas heat. The conversation covers a lot of ground: what the research actually says about high carb fueling (and where the evidence gets murky), why the crossover point matters more than oxidation rates, gel selection and why he's cycling between multiple products, a new ketone IQ study showing a 15% boost in EPO production post-exercise, and what Nomeo is actually doing in the body. Then Jacob admits he spent race night at the New York Half taking Advil PM every hour hoping to knock out, and Brady walks through what the research says about sleep before races -- including why trying harder to fall asleep is the worst thing you can do.ZBiotics: This episode is brought to you by ZBiotics, a pre-alcohol probiotic drink designed to break down the toxic byproduct that builds up in your gut when you drink -- so you can have a good night and still show up for your long run the next morning. Go to zbiotics.com/outandback, use code OUT AND BACK for 15% off your first order. Backed by a 100% money back guarantee.Meteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off MeteoPace Pro at https://www.meteopace.com/redeem Code: OUTANDBACK https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACKJoin our Strava groupBuy merch: https://outandback.shop/Follow us:Jacob’s YouTubeRory’s YouTube Out And Back YouTubeRory’s StravaJacob’s StravaRory’s InstagramJacob’s InstagramJacob’s Coaching WebsiteRory's Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy ProductionsBrady's training block and Grandma's Marathon prepDurability workouts: combining bike and runHeat training in TexasWhat the research actually says about high carb fuelingGel strategy, product lineup, and decoupling fuel from hydrationNew ketone IQ study: EPO production and recoveryNomeo: how it actually works (and what we don't know)Sleep before a race: why trying harder makes it worseRecovery modalities: red light, ice bath, and compression boots rankedRapid fire: cross training, electrolytes, and pre-race caffeine
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#40 David Roche - The Rules of High Carb Training, How to Train the Gut, Fatigue Resistance, & Training the Pros 07.06.2026 1ч 16минDavid Roche -- ultra marathoner, elite running coach, and what Rory's calling the godfather of the high carb revolution -- joins the Out and Back for episode 40. He started as a running back at Columbia, spent years coaching before ever being competitive himself, and broke the Leadville 100 course record in 2024 (and again in 2025!) largely by stress-testing the same principles he'd been building with his athletes. The conversation covers a lot of ground: how he thinks about carb intake across different race distances, why he separates hydration from fueling, the case for uphill treadmill threshold work, what unites his coaching across trail, road, and ultra, and why he keeps looking to cycling for answers the running world is slow to ask. David on InstagramDavid's WebsiteMeteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off MeteoPace Pro at https://www.meteopace.com/redeem Code: OUTANDBACK https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACKgoodr: Upgrade your eyewear by heading to goodr.com/OUTANDBACK to claim $10 off your first order.Meteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off MeteoPace Pro at https://www.meteopace.com/redeem Code: OUTANDBACK https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACKKava Haven: All the Buzz, None of the Booze — get 15% off your first order at http://kavahaven.com/outandback Code: OUTANDBACK15 Join our newsletterJoin our Strava groupFollow us:Jacob’s YouTubeRory’s YouTube Out And Back YouTubeRory’s StravaJacob’s StravaRory’s InstagramJacob’s InstagramJacob’s Coaching WebsiteRory's Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy Productions
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#39 Between Reps - Ottawa Marathon Edition 31.05.2026 1ч 12минOlympian John Gay, host of the Shakeout Podcast, joins Jacob and Rory one week out from the Ottawa Marathon where John ran 2:14 in his debut and Rory ran 2:09 for third place to close out his spring season. They break down both races, talk conditions, pacing strategy gone wrong, a certain Prime Minister phone call, and a lot more. Also on the docket: the Bolder Boulder DQ situation, Parker Valby's return at Track Fest, Kipchoge's continental tour, the new World Athletics qualifying standards, and the US World Half Marathon team announcement.Stay connected with John:The Shakeout PodcastJohn on InstagramMeteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off MeteoPace Pro at https://www.meteopace.com/redeem Code: OUTANDBACK https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACKJoin our newsletterJoin our Strava groupFollow us:Jacob’s YouTubeRory’s YouTube Out And Back YouTubeRory’s StravaJacob’s StravaRory’s InstagramJacob’s InstagramJacob’s Coaching WebsiteRory's Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy ProductionsTimestamps0:00 -- Intro2:00 -- Ottawa recap, John's debut8:00 -- Race conditions and why times were slower14:00 -- Rory's race and the Mark Carney moment21:00 -- The Prime Minister phone call, play by play27:00 -- Bolder Boulder: Emad Bashir Mohammed DQ'd33:00 -- Should Bolder Boulder open the pro field?38:00 -- Cape Town Marathon and Kipchoge's continental tour43:00 -- Should the World Marathon Majors expand?48:00 -- World Athletics qualifying standards54:00 -- Marathon pacing strategy (and a Chicago horror story)58:00 -- Parker Valby at Track Fest, Habtom Samuel's NCAA record1:09:00 -- Connor Mantz named to US World Half team1:12:00 -- US Women's World Half team situation explained1:14:00 -- Closing, hats shipped, coaching links
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#38 Vinny Mauri - Untold Stories from a 2:05 Marathon Debut + Training with the Out & Back Boys in Flagstaff soon? 24.05.2026 1ч 8минBlue Collar Middle America Hero Vincent Mauri joins the Out & Back podcast from his woodworking shop after working a full days shift at the local running store. We know he's been on about every podcast out there at this point but we got him to tell some new stories and also discuss his future training and racing plans, hiring an agent, and trying to land a shoe dealgoodr: Upgrade your eyewear by heading to goodr.com/OUTANDBACK to claim $10 off your first order.Meteo Pace: Be prepared for race day by getting 20% off MeteoPace Pro at https://www.meteopace.com/redeem Code: OUTANDBACK https://app.meteopace.com/redeem?code=OUTANDBACKKava Haven: All the Buzz, None of the Booze — get 15% off your first order at http://kavahaven.com/outandback Code: OUTANDBACK15 ZBiotics: Learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use OUTANDBACK at zbiotics.com/OUTANDBACKVinny's StravaJoin our newsletterJoin our Strava groupFollow us:Jacob’s YouTubeRory’s YouTube Out And Back YouTubeRory’s StravaJacob’s StravaRory’s InstagramJacob’s InstagramJacob’s Coaching WebsiteRory's Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy Productions
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#37 Molly Seidel - Marathons to Trails, Western States 100 miler, How to keep running fun 17.05.2026 1ч 8минOlympic marathon medalist turned trail runner, Molly Seidel, talks about her path from the roads to the trails. From the pavement to trail races to the high-altitude training that supports her quest for Western States, she shares behind-the-scenes insights you won’t hear anywhere else.Perfect for marathoners curious about trail running, road runners exploring ultra distances, or endurance athletes seeking fresh perspective—this episode opens a window into the future of multi-disciplinary excellence.MERCH: https://outandback.shop/SPONSORS:Meteo Pace App Code: OUTANDBACK for 20% offCure HydrationZBiotics Code: OUTANDBACK for 15% off
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#36 - How to taper for a Marathon and How to Recover After | Shakeout Podcast with John Gay 10.05.2026 47минHow to taper for a marathon, How to recover after a marathon & much more, on The Shakeout Podcast with John Gay ahead of his marathon debut.Kava Haven: All the Buzz, None of the Booze — get 15% off your first order at http://kavahaven.com/outandbackCode: OUTANDBACK15Check out the Meteo Pace App to be prepared for your next raceJoin our newsletterJoin our Strava groupFollow us:Jacob’s YouTubeRory’s YouTube Out And Back YouTubeRory’s StravaJacob’s StravaRory’s InstagramJacob’s InstagramJacob’s Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy Productions
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#35 Between Reps - London Marathon, 2:05 in Ohio, Has the marathon changed forever? Listener Questions! 03.05.2026 1ч 10минWe try to make sense of the London Marathon, compare it to the Boston Marathon, Talk about the crazy 2:05 in Toledo Ohio and then follow up with some listener questions. Enjoy!Join our newsletterJoin our Strava groupFollow us:Jacob’s YouTubeRory’s YouTube Out And Back YouTubeRory’s StravaJacob’s StravaRory’s InstagramJacob’s InstagramJacob’s Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy ProductionsMeteo Pace AppCure Hydration
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#34 Between Reps - Boston Marathon Reflection after running 2:06 and 2:09, What a weekend! 23.04.2026 54минJoin our newsletterJoin our Strava groupFollow us:Jacob’s YouTubeRory’s YouTube Out And Back YouTubeRory’s StravaJacob’s StravaRory’s InstagramJacob’s InstagramJacob’s Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy ProductionsMeteo Pace App
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#33 Ben Rosario - Running Industry Insider, Professional Coach and Founder of NAZ Elite, Race Director, Running Store Owner 19.04.2026 1ч 3минWe sat down with Ben Rosario to chat about his life in the running world. From owning running stores, founding a professional running team NAZ elite, driving sponsorship into the team with Hoka, owning and running The Marathon Project, his best coaching memories and more. Ben shares his thoughts and opinions on how to make the sport continue to grow and tells us what his blowing his mind about the current current boom.Meteo Pace AppCure HydrationZBioticsJoin our newsletterJoin our Strava groupFollow us:Jacob’s YouTubeRory’s YouTube Out And Back YouTubeRory’s StravaJacob’s StravaRory’s InstagramJacob’s InstagramJacob’s Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy ProductionsCheck out our former sponor The Marathon Project if you want to run fast in December of 2026. Use Code "outandback" for an additional $25 off your registration. Prices go up on May 1st!Chapters00:00 The Evolution of Running14:13 The Marathon Project25:56 Career Paths in Running34:24 The Evolution of Running Booms
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#32 Between Reps - Boston Marathon Edition, Deep Dive into our Boston Builds, Will the World Champs Marathon be Successful? How Hard is it to Make Multiple US Olympic Marathon Teams? 12.04.2026 57минSee you all at our Boston Shakeout Run!Saturday April 18th12:30 PM @ Hatch Memorial ShellJoin our newsletterJoin our Strava groupFollow us:Jacob’s YouTubeRory’s YouTube Out And Back YouTubeRory’s StravaJacob’s StravaRory’s InstagramJacob’s InstagramJacob’s Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy Productions
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#31 - Listener Call In Show, We answer your marathon questions and discuss all the hot takes. 05.04.2026 1ч 24минThis week we have a Listener Call In Show, which is a new take on our mailbag episodes. 6 guest appear to throw us their questions and takes for discussion. Please join our newsletter and check out our YouTube Channels as well. The podcast will also be on YouTube as well as our normal podcast services going forward! Let us know what you think in the comments.Join our newsletterJoin our Strava groupFollow us:Jacob’s YouTubeRory’s YouTube Rory’s StravaJacob’s StravaRory’s InstagramJacob’s InstagramJacob’s Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy ProductionsThanks to for sponsoring todays show - check out our link for 20% off your order.
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#30 Ed Eyestone - From being an Olympian to Coaching Them, Elite Marathon Training Philosophy, What's Difference in Today's Era of Running and Training 29.03.2026 1ч 19минBe sure to check out our show notes and sign up for our newsletter if you want the details on our Out & Back Boston Marathon Shakeout Run - we'll have some merch there as well!Today we are joined by the legend Ed Eyestone. Coach Eyestone has seen ever era of running from amateurism to super shoes. We talk about his running career, his transition to coaching, how he coaches the marathon, today's NCAA ever changing landscape, what makes Utah produce such good runners, and we also answer some great listener questions about his training philosophy. Join our newsletterJoin our Strava groupFollow us:Rory’s StravaJacob’s StravaRory’s InstagramJacob’s InstagramRory’s Youtube Jacob’s Coaching WebsiteSandyBoy ProductionsThank you to The Marathon Project for supporting this weeks episode. Use Code "outandback" for an additional $25 off your registration. Prices go up on April 1st!
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