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  APEX Express – 9.17.26- My Family Ep 2: What happens in ICE detention? 17.09.2026 59мин

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. This month on APEX Express (@apexexpress), tune in for episode two of My Family, a 3-part audio series produced in collaboration with the Asian Prisoner Support Committee (APSC). The series centers stories and voices of Cambodian, Laotian, Vietnamese, and other Asian families navigating the carceral system, detention, and deportation—detailing harrowing lived experience alongside cultural and historical expertise. Hosted by writer and activist Michelle MiJung Kim (@michellekimkim), episode two continues the series with three formerly incarcerated Asian Americans who detail distinct but overlapping journeys: immigrating as children, growing up excluded, getting locked up young, and ultimately facing detention and deportation. Also featured: Elijah Chhum (@newlightwellness), founder of New Light Wellness, a wellness and mutual aid organization supporting Southeast Asian communities impacted by deportation. He shares how the organization began and its work with community members rebuilding their lives in Cambodia. My Family Ep. 2: What happens in ICE detention? Transcript   [APEX] [2026] [My Family] – EP. 2 FINAL   [00:00:00]   Michelle MiJung Kim: Hello. Welcome to “My Family,” a project by the Asian Prisoner Support Committee and APEX Express. I’m your host, Michelle Mijung Kim. If you haven’t yet, I invite you to check out our first episode. We’ll include a tag in the show notes, which you can find at kpfa.org/program/apex-express/. As as [00:01:00] listeners may know, many Southeast Asians are in the United States after their families found refuge here in the ’70s and ’80s, fleeing genocide and violence in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos.   Most have loved ones who didn’t survive. The ones who did make it out, around one point one million, are the largest refugee community ever resettled in the US. Today, after decades of building a home in the US, these families are targeted by mass detention and deportation. According to the latest data, forty-two percent of all Southeast Asian deportations to date happened between 2025 and 2026. There’s been a twentyfold increase in the deportations of Southeast Asian elders. Amid the pain and fear, families are seeking answers. How did we get here? What can we do to keep our family safe and together?   That’s why I’m partnering with the Asian [00:02:00] Prisoner Support Committee and APEX Express, to bring our communities and families honest recounts of what is happening so that we can be there for each other. In today’s episode, we’ll focus on what happens in ICE detention.   Welcome to “My Family.”    A content warning for our listeners that in today’s episode, we’ll be discussing incarceration, depression, and family separation.   We first met NC in our last episode. NC and his family are Hmong. Like many other ethnic groups in Laos, including Lahu and Mien, Hmong people’s stories are unfa– Hmong people’s stories are unfamiliar to many.   These ethnic groups and others have shared ancient roots in the central and southern– in the central and southern regions of China. About 300 years ago, they were forced to flee the Chinese government’s oppression and persecution. Many sought safety in the highlands [00:03:00] of Southeast Asia. NC’s family settled in N- N- NC’s family settled in Laos.   During the Vietnam War, the CIA recruited tens of thousands of Hmong boys and men, including members of NC’s family, to fight in a covert campaign in Laos known as the Secret War, which you can learn more about in the resources we’ll share in the show notes. Hmong fighters served behind enemy lines, rescued US planes, and risked their lives for Americans.   The Hmong soldiers were told that they were– The Hmong soldiers were told they and their families would be protected, but when the war ended, the Americans left, and thousands of Hmong were left behind. Facing persecution for their work with the United States, the Hmong were once again forced to flee. One– Facing p- facing persecution for their work with the United States, the Hmong were once again forced to flee to survive, rendering them stateless.   Thousands of Hmong families and other ethnic minority groups hid in the jungles or escaped on foot. Many died on the journey from starvation, drowning, and disease. NC’s parents, [00:04:00] his mom pregnant with him, finally crossed the Mekong River into Thailand. NC was born into a refugee camp there, and after some time, his family was brought to the US, first in Long Beach and later in Stockton, where his dad opened an auto body shop   As a young person, NC was convicted of a crime, which led him to being incarcerated for 24 years. On the day he was supposed to be released from prison last year, instead of finally, instead of finally being able to return home, he was picked up by ICE. He had planned to finish his college education and become a social worker, helping young people struggling with trauma and loss like he did.   ICE took him to Mesa Verde, a detention facility in Bakersfield, California. For years, people detained in Mesa Verde and other ICE facilities in California, and other facilities, and other f- and other ICE facilities in California have led hun– Oh my gosh. For years, people detained in Mesa Verde and other ICE facilities in California have led hunger and labor strikes to protest medical neglect, gruesome conditions, including a perpetual lack of food and clean water.   California Attorney [00:05:00] General Rob Bonta says the conditions are worse now, calling ICE’s facilities in the state, quote, ” cruel, inhumane, and unacceptable.” As of this recording, at least 24 people have died in ICE custody nationwide this year. We’ll hear from NC what happened after ICE agents brought him to the Mesa Verde ICE facility.   Here’s NC   NC (pseudonym): Yeah, it’s kinda… It’s hard because when you hit detention, it’s like you paroled, you’re happy that you paroled because you’ve been incarcerated, ’cause I’ve been incarcerated for like like 24 years, and like, you know, it’s the next step.   So it’s the next step to freedom. And while I went to a detention facility, you know, you know, it’s like the main thing is just try to get out, not, not to get into trouble, you know. um, so during that time, it was like you don’t have like, like… If you don’t have, like, money to hire an attorney, then basically it’s kinda like you trying to ask for a pro bono attorney, somebody that’s willing to help you and represent you, but they have a lot of people in the [00:06:00] detention facility as well.   So when they come, it’s like they’re just overwhelmed with a whole bunch of people, and you hardly even get to, to really sit down and talk with them. So if you see them, they come visit like, I think, once a month, and then they’ll just take your A number down, and then they’ll just talk to you, and then they’ll just, you know…   If they come back to you, I guess they come back to you. But I haven’t really seen any, anybody, you know, um, they ever got back to that I know of, so. so.    Niketa Kumar: Mm-hmm.   NC (pseudonym): all the people, all the de- detainees that was there, um, those that were fighting their case, you know, Either they have a private, uh, immigration attorney, um, fighting for them, uh, uh, or they’re just doing paperwork themself.   one of the thing I wanna point out is while you’re in detention, you don’t have access to anything, you know. They give you like a tablet, and they give you like some cases on it, but you really don’t have access to look up anything or research anything. You only have, you know, the access to whatever that they [00:07:00] gave you um, According to their tablet. And, And, and it’s just like the tablet, they only have like… Like, for example, when I was there, um- We only had to, we had to share, like, four tablets, and there was a lot of us. And people sh- use it to, like, order canteen. Somebody would, like, use it to watch movie, listen to the radio.   Some people would use it to, um, talk with their family, Mm-hmm … like um, But, um, um, we don’t have enough tablets and, um, we don’t have enough, um, um, batteries on the tablet. And um, just getting a hold of the tablet is, is, um, is pretty hard to get. And, And, like, um…   They give you, like, a little pin for the, the computer, but it’s hard to, um, access it because they don’t really… There’s, like, no… They don’t really teach you how to access anything anyway. So you’re just, like, going from one place to another, and if you have something, you don’t know how to save it. So you would have to ask other people that’s been there for a while, and then you would have to go to, like… like…   You know, all this is, all this is just, like, um, like, um, I learned after, you know? It’s not like, like, like when I was [00:08:00] there-    Niketa Kumar: Mm-hmm   NC (pseudonym): somebody was, was, you know, you know, showing me. So you have to sign up. You have to go to the library, and when they schedule… ‘Cause there’s, like, it’s overcrowded and there’s so many people. And, and they schedule the library.   There’s, like, one librarian and, and,  you know, you know, we have to share the library. And then if you go there, then you have to try to get it printed or, you know, stuff like that. And then, and then when you do that stuff, you have to be able to sign up. You gotta have it, and if the librarian’s not there, then you just have to wait until another time.   So everything is just, um, hard. It’s not like, um, like if you remember something, then you can do something. And it’s, like, uh, even pencils and paper, if you don’t have, like, money to buy it on your canteen, then you would just have to ask somebody for it because everything… ‘ Cause once you get there, they don’t give you any property, you know?   So sometimes, um, if you talk to the, the, uh, detaining officers, if they let you take some of your, um, like hygiene items. Like if you come from prison, you take some of your hygiene items, they’ll allow you to bring it with you. [00:09:00] But other than that, it’s like you really don’t have access to anything. ‘ Cause once you get there, you have to slip out of your clothes, and you gotta wear, you know, prison clothes and can’t have any, um, any personal belongings on you.   So you’re just, like, going from one… It’s like one, one prison to another prison.   You just, you know, try to just be calm and, um, you know, try to just, you know, stay, don’t get into trouble, uh, you know, await for your, um, immigration hearing. um, And the first time I was there, um, I waited for my immigration hearing and, um, um, they didn’t even, um, um, get my paperwork because something happened, and I had to call, call, and had to write a bunch of letters and paper and that’s how… That’s why I didn’t, like, go to, um, um, my immigration hearing, like, like, within, like, a couple of weeks when I got there.   I had to wait, like, a whole month, you know, before I got scheduled for one. So, ’cause they, they lost my paperwork. I don’t know if they, they d- lost it or sent it because I was writing to the, the, ICE agent that, um, um, is in charge of my case, and they said they [00:10:00] don’t have any paperwork on me, so they can’t…   You know, You know, I was writing to the courts and I was, you know, dialing the phone number to the courts to see if they, um, um, uh, scheduled me for m- an immigration hearing. So it was, it it was, part of the process of sending the paperwork from the ICE place to the, uh, courts so they can schedule it, and they didn’t, they didn’t, they didn’t do it.   So I had to wait. I had to stay, like, an extended like, period of time, much longer than I should have um, I was able to finish… I mean, they were able to schedule me and then, um, during that time, you know, I saw attorneys and they were just telling me, ” Oh, nothing’s gonna happen to you. Um, the country’s not gonna accept you.   Um, just go and, you know, you can fight it if you want, but you’re probably gonna lose. So you’re gonna be here, like, two, three, four, five years fighting it in, in detention. And then if you just, you know, s- agree to it, like, yes, yes, yes, and then, then, after you sign all the paperwork, you just, you know, you’ll wait about, like, a month, and, and then you’ll just be out of here.”   So that was just the, like, like, you know, Basically, like a protocol.   Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:11:00] NC was eventually put on an Omni Air International plane. Many first learned about Omni’s large contract with ICE in 2018 when it helped execute the then largest deportation flight of Southeast Asian refugees in the United States history.   Since 2025, Omni’s work for ICE has quadrupled. As journalist Gillian Brockell has ex– as journalist Gillian Brockell explained, Omni has been the only large jet airline flying shackled passengers on long-haul ICE flights to Africa and Asia.   A former ICE official told NBC last year that each ICE flight costs taxpayers about $25,000 per hour. NC was deported last November.   NC (pseudonym): Well, like like when I came to Laos, I didn’t have anybody. Um, I didn’t know nobody, not a single relative or friend over here. But, um, um, uh, when I went to the detention [00:12:00] facility, I met a guy and we became friends, and he kinda like, like, he had relatives here in Laos.   So he told me that, um, um, you know, “Hey, if, um, um, if you don’t have anybody, you know, you know, I’ll tell my, um, my family to, to come and, um, um, sponsor you.” You know, like his, his, distant part of the family. And I say, sh- you know, “Thank you.” You know? um, when I got here, um, it was hard, too, because he had to try to like really, really try to convince them as well.   Um, it wasn’t like something that they would want to, you know, just do, you know? you know? So, um, it was very, very hard to get them to trust me. So, So, uh, uh, when they came and see me and they talk with me, and then they say okay, they’ll, they, they’ll decided to sponsor me. So with that, uh, I had a, you know, a little bit of relief because um, when you get here, it’s kinda like like if you don’t have a sponsor, uh, you don’t know how you gonna manage. You don’t know how you gonna… You don’t even, they won’t even let you out of the camp. So it’s like you’re just going from one detention facility to another detention [00:13:00] facility, but the only difference is at the campground here is much better because you’re not…   You know, You know, you wear your, your clothes and you’re fr- you, you roam free, and then, um, you sleep in a place where, um, you know, you have mattresses. You sleep in a place and, um, they do, they give you like, uh, uh, three meals a day, too. So, but then the thing is that you’re s- you’re stuck in the camp if nobody comes to get you, and I don’t know, I don’t know about the people that’s been there.   They can be there, They’ll stay there for, like, like, two, three months, and if they don’t have no sponsor, I don’t know what happens after that, ’cause I didn’t stay that long to, to see what happened to the people that, that don’t have a sponsor to come get them. You know? So it’s kinda scary, too, if you don’t have a sponsor to come get you, ‘ cause you don’t know where you’re gonna end up    Niketa Kumar: Hmm.   NC (pseudonym): But once I got a sponsor and, and,  you know, you know, I came out, the thing is that the, it’s hard because once they, they get you out, it’s like, you know, you start to realize that, you know, they’re not your family, and then they want you to, you know, keep paying them and all this other stuff. And then, and then you have to like, you know, you don’t wanna like get into anything that’s not good [00:14:00] with them, you know?    you know?   you know. Mm-hmm. So then you try to go and find a place. So you kinda like just move out, you know, because you only there, you only allow, you know, they, you know, like, um, what’s the correct way? It’s like you can stay with them, like, like, but you only stay with them like temporary. Yeah.   So then you gotta go find your own place. but the, but the messed up thing is that if you don’t pay them, they don’t really help you to go find a place of your own. So that’s when, um, um, I was talking to some of my friends in America, and I was asking like, “Man, it’s kinda messed up ’cause we don’t have any programs here.   Like this country doesn’t have any programs that will, will, will help you transition, you know, into –    Niketa Kumar: Hmm …   NC (pseudonym): you know, the way of life in, in Laos.” And basically, I, I, I had to just try to learn everything the best way I can, talk to people, be as cordial as I can, and, uh, uh, and respectful as I can, and, uh, talk and ask.   And, but I don’t know Laos, so I don’t talk to any of the Laos people. But fortunately there are some Hmong people here, so then I talk to some other Hmong people here, and   I was fortunate to meet some people who was, who was willing to help me.   Um, so I made some [00:15:00] friends. And although I don’t know the Laos language, you know, sometimes I ask them to go help me translate, then they would, um, if they, you know, have time. But it’s, it’s, it’s hard, like for a time, for a time in the beginning I was just like just staying out. Sometimes I stayed out all night.   Sometimes if I find a place to sleep, I would, you know, s- you know, sleep at a guest house. Um, but then like it would drain my funds really, really fast because I had to, you know, pay like per night. And then some nights I’d just stay up all night. like, um, you know, like, it’s sad because for the first time like, um, felt, I felt, felt homeless, you know? you know?   That’s, that’s the, that’s the correct term, I guess. I was just homeless, you know, just roaming the streets. And then I was thinking to myself like, “What?” I don’t know how to go rent an apartment or a place here because, um, I don’t have the connections. So you don’t know how to talk to people, and you don’t know who to talk to and ask.   And, and a lot of times they won’t rent it to you unless they know that you can, you know, pay them. So, So, you know, you know, you have to, um, have [00:16:00] somebody talk to them. So when I have my friend and she went to talk to them and, um, find out that, um, um, the room was open, and I was able to, you know, rent it. then, then I started, um, um, talking to my grandma back in, um, the US, and then my grandma then found a, a distant cousin of ours.   um, kind of I kind of reached out to them, they don’t live where I live. They live like really, really far up north. So I really talked to them, and then they started pointing directions like, “Oh yeah, you know, you know, we do have some distant cousins here in this, in this village. If you have time, you go visit them.”   So that’s what I do. I, I would, you know, if I could and I have the funds, I would go visit them because they’re not gonna come visit me. You know what I mean?    Niketa Kumar: Mm-hmm   NC (pseudonym): so yeah, I have to go visit them and show them that, “Hey, you know, this is me. Um, I’m here,” and, you know, um- basically like that, but, um, still like like transitioning is still hard because, you know, have to learn the language, you know, practice it, um, every single day and then learn the customs and, and learn how not to get in trouble and stay out of trouble.   Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:17:00] It’s time to come back to Pam, who you heard from in the first episode of My Family. Pam also grew up in California and was incarcerated for 16 years. When Pam first learned that she could be deported after serving her time, she said her parents were shocked. They told her, “There’s nobody over there who can support you, take care of you.   You’ve been here in America all your life. Why does ICE want to send you over there since you already did your time?” She spent a lot of time in the prison law library trying to understand her options to come back home to her parents and her children. Once she paroled, like NC, like NC, ICE came and took her directly to a detention center.   Here’s Pam. Here’s Pam   Pam (pseudonym): It’s pretty much worse than, um, in prison, because if in prison you could walk, you could program, you could [00:18:00] do other stuff.   But in the ICE ICE detainer, you get a yard, hour a day. It’s like you, you’re locked up in prison for, you know, when you get… Getting locked up again. You go, you go into that, the hole. You know, where us prison, we call it the hole, or jail is another way of, you you know, know, expressing it. in 24 hours, you only get a hour of yard time, and it was hard to be being in a dorm with all these people, over 100 people in the dorm.   It was hard. It was hard. But it’s like you’re against the world, and I never felt like that before.   I never felt like I’m against the world before. I have to fight for my life. So that was the first time. Even though I did my prison time, I didn’t feel like I have to fight my life, because I know what I did wrong. But that’s the first time I ever feel like I have to fight for my life just to be alive and [00:19:00] free, either with my family or without my family. So I’m going to another country that I, I never known since I was two years old. I left Cambodia when I was two, and now I’m almost 50. that’s a big old gap, what I’m going to a whole new world. When I first, from ICE detainer, I was nervous, and then I thought they’re gonna take me.   I thought they gonna not deport me at all. I thought they gonna move me to another ICE detainer. And I heard about another ICE detainer is worse, like Texas is worse. But also, even the officer in the detainer won’t even treat you, they don’t treat you like human. your personal property, your family send pictures, they copy your photo and they throw your original one away.   They say, “Oh, you got the copy.” What you mean? it’s not like [00:20:00] person you can have your copy, but they would throw your original. They won’t even save it for you. And then when you’re about to get deported, you have to make sure, you have to, like, be on them about, “Hey, I don’t have no clothes.   Can my family send money? I mean, send boxes for me so I can take my clothes?” Because I have my rights that I can ask for 40-pound box, before I leave. And it took them a long time to process your paper to get, to let your family send stuff like that. And about time you, that you got it, they’re going through every little detail, and then, like, some of your stuff is missing or damaged.   Like, hey, why my, my, stuff is damaged? My son send me a watch, it almost got damaged. Good thing that he, he wrap it with a bunch of clothes, they don’t care about your property. They don’t. They really don’t. So you have to ask them, what can you ha- can, what can your family send you? And sometimes they tell you, “Hey, I can’t get you a box,” they [00:21:00] tell you you’re about to leave, you And sometimes it’s not even true. You end up leaving the next day. So- It’s a lot of, it’s a lot of stuff I was s- I was s- going through it. I never go through… I had never felt like I’m going through a war zone with them. They just not specific with everything. They, they really treat you like you’re not… You never been in United States.   They really treat you like a great straight out prisoner. Even the prison don’t treat you like that. So it’s, it’s hard. It’s hard, tough, and, uh, hopefully, you know, the only thing that keep me going is strong bond with your family. Family, friend, loved ones, like, Any group that help with the deportation, what you have to go through, you know? So that’s the only way that you feel like you don’t have to battle with nothing. You ha- I nev- I never felt like I’m- Dead to the world. it was hard. It was hard. For a whole year sitting in detainer, it was hard.   Medical [00:22:00] was bad.   my brother and sister never seen me cry before on the phone and they’re like, ” If they not gonna accept you, if they said, ‘ Okay, do you wanna appeal?’   we want you to be happy. We want you to be happy. We want you to… The sound, we hear you, you sound like tired, you’re drained, and I think you’re really going through it right now. You’re really going through it, and we just want you to be happy. If you get deported, well, well, now we still love you. We still love you no matter what.”   I was like, “I know,” but I was expect to go home. My son bought a car for me. He bought a car. He bought a car. He’s like, “Mama, you’re not, you’re not getting deported. I got you a Honda Civic already. I got you a car. I got a place for you.” You know how, how, that affect me when your family member bought you stuff, be thinking that you coming home?   It was, it was sad. it hit me hard towards the point that I’m never gonna go home ever again. I’m never gonna step in America [00:23:00] again. That was my part of my experience going through ICE detainer. But when my… when about time when I’m about to leave, I was a little bit excited, a little bit scared because I don’t know what  going- gonna happen to me. I don’t know how they’re gonna escort me. Uh, you know, I heard so many bad things how they escort people and how the ICE officer don’t care about you.   A lot of bad things. But I come to find out I was really lucky. I was really lucky. I got three wonderful ICE officer. They helped me. They said, ” Hey, ma’am,” because I got my 40-pound box of clothes. They say, “Ma’am, I need you to tell me what’s really important for you to carry on a plane, and what’s not that important, it’s okay if you lose it because you can go…   We end up, uh, riding two flight. We’re gonna make a stop, so we don’t want nothing to be missing that is very important [00:24:00] to you.” So I got my paperwork in my backpack, and something that’s, you know, so dear to me is my kids’ pictures and letters, and other things. I, my clothes, for real, for real, I only have… I make sure I have one extra pair of clothes in my backpack, too.   And the rest of the stuff I was like, “Okay, as long as I got one pair of clothes, I’m fine.” So- The rest, and you know, you know, they was taking time. They were waiting for our pack or I pack my luggage how, the way I want it. they say, “Go ahead, finish packing your luggage. Put your watch on. Put, this, that on because, you know, as long as…   Then you know, you go through a me- metal detector, I need you to take it off. They say, “We’re not gonna cuff you because you’re gonna fly with us. You’re the only one to fly with us, so make sure you have your socks on, your tennis shoes on. Go ahead, put your shoelace.”   They was like, “Whatever make you comfortable, go ahead. But we’re gonna tell you this, if you cause a scene at the airport, we’re [00:25:00] gonna show you. That’s it. That’s all we’re asking. If you give us a smooth ride, we give you a smooth ride. If you get hungry, you get thirsty, let us know. That’s all we can afford for you.   And if you get sick, we could get you meds. We could take you and get meds, but besides that, like anything you wanna buy or you wanna get, you have… It come out your pocket.” they pretty much make it clear for me, if you try to run, you know we’re gonna catch and slam you down.   So I look at it as where, where, where I’m gonna go? Where am I gonna go? I’m on a whole different flight. Haven’t seen the world for 16 years- So I was like, “Oh, whatever.” I was excited, when I first stepped outside, ICE came to pick me up. I’m not gonna lie, ICE came pick me up a day before I parole. a day before I parole. And then when I got shipped and deported, I was from Washington, Seattle, [00:26:00] and I fly a good… I don’t know how long I fly. I sleep throughout the whole flight. Uh, they only wake me up for my meals. I ate my meal. I get three serving on a plane. Every, you know, it’s not just peanut butter sandwich, I, I get to eat what the commercial people eat.   Uh, Uh, they always ask me what I want, roast chicken or something, rice and chicken. I can’t remember, but the food was good. The food was good. The food was better than prison. And it’s way better than, way better than, ICE detainer. I only woke, I only wake up to eat and use the bathroom, and I barely use the bathroom.   Michelle MiJung Kim: That was three years ago during the Biden administration. Since then, Congress and the Trump administration have supercharged ICE with a two hundred billion dollar budget. Pam reminded us many times [00:27:00] that her story is just one experience, that she’s one of the lucky ones. She knows people who have been shackled the entire flight, blocked from using the bathroom.   News reports have shared how people have been forced to soil their seats because they can’t get up. Others have been held in straitjacket-like devices or endured verbal and physical abuse from agents, from agents. Flights can last multiple days, stopping in four, five, or even seven countries.   When Pam was deported, the only thing she knew about Southeast Asia was a f– was a fruit shr– When Pam was deported, the only thing she knew about Southeast Asia was a fruit shr– was a fruit she remember– Uh. When Pam was deported, the only thing she knew about Southeast Asia was a fruit she remembered liking as a small child.   Since then, Pam has slowly rebuilt her life. She… Since then, sh… Since being deported, Pam has slowly rebuilt her life. She has a job and an apartment. We asked Pam about her home in Cambodia now and how she keeps in touch with her big family back in California.   Pam (pseudonym): Like, a little studio with a little sink, but you have to buy your own furniture. And it just a room. It’s just, like, like, almost like a cell, [00:28:00] but you got windows you can open anytime.   You got doors you could go in and out, and it only cost me $50 a month. So that helps. And my food, oh, you know, you know, in a street vendor, if you go buy a street vendor, a bowl of rice, 1,000 riel. 1,000 riel 25 cent, you get a bowl of rice. the vegetable, I only spend, like, I, I mean, I, I mean, I fill up my whole refrigerator with vegetables and it cost me $20, but it last me for two weeks.   You know? not expensive, but if you don’t have no income from your family, it is expensive. But if you have income from your family, support from the state, all the stuff like that, it’s not that expensive. Because American money and the prices here, my paycheck, I only get 500 a month.   But my 500, I get to save 100 a month because I don’t really [00:29:00] need nothing. All I need is food, some clothes, and pay my bills. That’s it. Pay my phone bills, pay my electricity bill, my water bill, and my rent. So… I, And I, I get to save $100 a month. So for that, I say I see is the state, I work for 16 hours and I can’t even save money.   Mm-hmm. But here, I work for from what? 7 to 5, 10 hours. About 10 hours. But I can save my money. So, and it, I’m not gonna lie, when I was over there at the state, I didn’t get no sleep. I didn’t really get no sleep. I usually get two hours sleep. So I came to Cambodia and I sleep, I never sleep this much in my life.   So I feel like, yeah, I gained some weight. I’m not gonna lie. I’m gonna g- I gain, I gained a few weights. But, but I’m okay. I’m okay. Because why? I got a good family, helps me. Mm-hmm. And my mom, she going through [00:30:00] her own little struggle, but she said… This is the thing about my mom. She would never come to step foot in Cambodia again because she lost, she still trigger from, she lost three daughters in Cambodia during that war.   So she said she love me, she care about me, she wish I was in United States, but as much as she love me, she would never willing to step back into Cambodia. So that hurts in a way, but I also I have to understand what she go through as a mother losing her own child, three of her child before I was b- even born.   I have to understand how she go, what she go through.   The only thing that’s different is the time. I told my family, call me at 3:00 o’clock in the morning because I’ll be up getting ready for work, this and that.   I can still put you… You know, I can still talk to you while I’m doing stuff [00:31:00] So that’s what me, my family have a deal. from between 3:00 in the morning to 7:00 in the morning that I could talk to them before my class start, before I start working or whatever. And sometime, you know, when I first got here, I got my phone you know, uh, from Washington because they the one that has people fly over here, people from the group, they fly over here because my son send a phone with them to give it to me.   I still don’t know how the mailing process. I still working on that, how people send stuff from United States to Cambodia. I still don’t know that. I finally know how my family send money to me once in a while. Before, they didn’t have Western Union, they only have MoneyGram. So now they finally have Western Union for us.   two months ago they just finally opened a Western Union, and I don’t know how that works. I don’t know if it works really good or not. I was scared to [00:32:00] try My family try and make everything a negative turn into a positive. You know, try to keep me company and keep me, like, we just wanna s- we just wanna see you free, you happy. they hook me up with, on the Facebook.   They said, ” You know, whenever you got time, wherever you go to do new places, I want you to take video. We wanna see where you at.”   Michelle MiJung Kim: Pam told us that she’s learned to stay busy to take care of her mental health. When she first arrived in Cambodia, she thought to herself, “I need to start crocheting and get some yarn.” Crocheting helps her mental health and to stay strong. Before we continue, I invite you to take a deep breath with me Today, more and more people are sharing their outrage at the inhumane, at the inhumane and cruel conditions of ICE detention.   But this brutality didn’t just start this year. But [00:33:00] this brutality didn’t just start this year. People have been, people have been enduring and pushing for change in the community for a long time. People have been enduring and pushing for change in the community for a long… People have been enduring and pushing for change in the community for a long time.   To help share how, we spoke with Tony, who was first detained by ICE nearly 27 years ago in Los Angeles. He’s still fight, he’s still fighting to keep his family to– He’s still fighting to keep his family together   Tony (pseudonym): Um, my first time I, you know, went to a immigration detention center was back in October of 1999. Went there, you know, you know, for doing a county lid in Los Angeles, California. You know, we call it a county lid because it’s, you know, we took a plea bargain for one year of county time. And I did, like, eight month and 20 day.   From there like, before I got released, ICE came and interviewed me, told me that I got immigration hold, and they will, uh, you know, come and pick me up or detain me and, you know, take me to the processing and all kind, you know. Because, um, I got order to removal. So when I got to ICE in October of ’99, two weeks later I went to court you know, we just [00:34:00] got a court hearing.   There’s no lawyer, no nothing to represent you at all. You just in there solo bolo with the judge, and they ask you, you know, you know, um, how you plea or do you wanna fight your case, or you know, to sign the paperwork for final removal to get, you know, deported back to whatever country we from.   you know, that time it was my first experience going to ICE detention center, so first thing in my head is, like, “No, I’m not going back to my country without a fight.” So, you know, I called my family. They got me a lawyer, and I fought it for a good six month. That’s when, you know, the court make the final decision that I still getting deported.   And it was tough, you know, for my family to come up with the lawyer fee money and stuff, because during that time when I was, uh, incarcerated at, um, at the ICE detention center, there’s no pro bono lawyer, no orientation, any, i- any uh, uh, support group to help us at all. We just in there like a sitting duck, and everybody was going [00:35:00] through h- like, you know.   The feeling of that is more harder than, you know, being locked up in a, in a jail cell or, uh, or doing, you know, doing life, because there’s no release date, and they just like, they drain you all of all your hope and everything. And then, you know. And throughout the whole time, you know, people At the detention center, they went from a normal person to, you know, people go there. At the detention center, they went from a normal to, need mental health issue.   That’s how stressful it is. you know, from there, you know, I stayed there for a good 11 month until people start, like, you know, filing habeas corpus, and they slowly granted us, each one of us, a habeas corpus to go home   So, you know, you know, those are the worst experience I have ever had, and my family was like, you know, keep on asking me, you know, you know, “What’s the next step? What’s the w- what should they do?” I tell them, you know, you know, “Just save your money.” You know, since we lost the case already, “Save your money, you know, just in case I get deported, uh, you know, I have something to start a new life with back in Vietnam even though I don’t have no family and I don’t even have no family over [00:36:00] there, and I don’t even know nothing about Vietnam because I left the country when I was 10 years old.”   it was just like, you know Hard for me to, you know, you know, be far away from my my f- my brother, my sister, and my dad, ’cause, you know, I grew up with a single parent. My mom passed away when I was five years old. My dad raised all four of them, my si- you know, you know, me and my sibling all by himself. So it just emotion and everything washed in, it’s just like, you know, heartbreaking.   So every time, you know, when my dad come to visit me, he always break down and cry because he just like, you know, like, you know, feel sad that his oldest son is gonna get shipped back to his country. that’s my experience from being in an ICE detention center   After I got out, it’s like, you know, they make… They put me on ICE supervision. I started out with, you know, go and check, go check in once a month, from once a month to every three month.   But the feeling of going there to check in is like, you sitting there, each time you go check in, you sitting there, it’s like, you know, you got like a weird [00:37:00] feeling, like a butterfly in your stomach, makes you stress, oh, it’s like, “Oh, are they gonna detain me and ship me back?” And all kind of stuff washing in.   It’s like, it’s just like the mind game they’re playing with you when you’re on supervision. Even though, you know, back in the day, you know, my country, they still don’t accept people to go back or, you know, or anything. But it’s just a feeling that’s like, hey, you know, the law could change. Anything could happen, and it just like, like, you know, slowly break you down inside and outside.   ‘   Tony (pseudonym): once you’re in ICE detention center, they don’t care you have any health issue at all.   Whatever medication they give you is not even, you know, What we call it is like, you know, genetic like, you know, medication, the dose or whatever treatment is not even there. uh, , you have to sign up on um, like a doctor waiting list for you to go see a doctor or s- to go get a checkup.   Because the only way that you g- you get any, um, you know, medical attention is when you drop, when you drop right there on the spot in front of them. [00:38:00] That’s the fastest way for them to, you know, show you me- medical attention. Other than that, we just like, you know, animal locked in a cage, you know. That’s why a lot of people, like, you know, you know, they go on there, they have health issues and stuff, and some, you know, end up, you know, being sick and, you know, die or,  you know, or their, you know, health condition get worse because we don’t have the fair treatment  like, you know, to help us at all.   I have to fight for my, you know, my life every single day because, you know, you know, I got diagnostic with a heart failure back in June of 2018, a day after my son was born. And I went to the emergency room three, uh, three different time. The first time they didn’t detect that I have a health issue or anything at all.   They just, you know, prescribed me some medication. ‘Cause I went there, I told them I have, uh, I got food poison. And, uh, you know, all they concentrates on are the food poison. But I told them I have this you know, like shortness of breath, my legs all, you know, swollen [00:39:00] up. I could not walk more than, you know, 20 step and stuff without, you know, have to take a break.   But I guess the, whatever, you know, the nurse and the doctor, they didn’t d- you know, catch that symptom at all, so… so… they just send me home, prescribed me some medication. And then the second time I went back, same thing. Just give me more medication. Until the third time I went in, I I got, I didn’t even get admitted.   I was still in the gurney waiting for them to do all the testing. Less than 30 minutes later, they came back and told me that I was diagnosed sick with a heart failure, and they have to drain out all the liquor from my body because my body was puffed up like a puffer fish. I was, uh, hospital life for two months fighting for my life because my, um, my heartbeat function, faction, function or faction went down to 12%.   So I have to, you know, breathe, you know, inhale, exhale, do a breathing machine like, you know, for at least a [00:40:00] month for me to get, you know, my strength back and everything.   After I got discharged from the hospital, they don’t wanna be uh, like, liability for me to drive like an hour like and 20 minutes just to go check in. So they want me to do like, like, you know, call them every six months to check in, I’ve been doing that for the past three years already.   But each time I call them to check in, my heart, you know, it just like stop beeping. Like, you know, my heartbeat just stop just to wait for them to say, “Okay, call me back this, this and that date.” You know, and then ever since, you know, Trump became the president, he make everything more worse. And each time, you know, you know, I call just like, like, you know, I get more worry and scared and paranoid   Because it will be hard and everything ’cause you don’t even know, we don’t even know nothing about that country anymore because we get so adapted to the, you know, the environment over here in the United State.   And some of us, you know, you know, might get like, you know, emotional [00:41:00] breakdown and everything when, when, when that day come and, you know, ’cause there’s so many uh, thing going through our head. all we have to do is just, you know, be, be sharp, strong-minded, and and, you know, just have faith And to our family, you know, we just have to pray for the best, and hopefully, you know, you know, the, you know, hopefully down the, down the road, you know, new law change and, you know, the bars that, you know, they deport us back, we could come back, you know, in future, maybe 5 or 10 years down.   You never know. you know, we just have to pray for the best and stick together. Don’t- Don’t give up all hopes and, you know, fight for your freedom   I think what have changed is that, you know, right now you know, people are fighting back and s- you know, ’cause they lost a lot. You know, we lost like, you know, loved one, family members, you know. Um, you know. Um, some lost their parents due to, you know, you know, ICE. And I’m happy, you know, all this you know, all the support group are, you [00:42:00] know, you know, coming out to support the, you know, their own people.   Even though, you know, is they’re not a- you know, you know, like from Southeast Asia, but, you know, we all human being. We have to, you know, stick together and treat each other equally and fairly. Because, you know, when you in ICE detention center, they treat you like animal. They don’t care, you know? Sometime when we got feed, you know, you know, in the middle…   Like outside section was fully cooked, but the middle section was still raw, and then we complained. It’s “Hey, you know, that’s all you have. You eat, either you eat it or you starve.” That’s it. And I’m happy, you know, you know, a lot of have changed, and for us you know, to g- see the better future we all, every, each one of us and our community have to stick together and help each other, you know, as one and be u- you know, united and fight against, you know, whatever is wrong.   Michelle MiJung Kim: According to the latest analysis by the University of Southern California Equity Research Institute, ICE arrests of Asian [00:43:00] and Pacific Islander Californians increased by over 1,000% between 2024 and 2025. A link to this data is included in our show notes. When we talked to Tony, he emphasized the need for solidarity within and across communities as we grapple with immeasurable toll on families, neighborhoods, businesses, schools, and on every thread in the fabric of what makes our lives.   Before we end this episode, I wanna bring in Elijah Chhum, who leads New Light Wellness, one of the community groups Tony mentioned. Who leads New Light Wellness, one of the community groups Tony mentioned. New Light Wellness works closely with the Asian Prisoner Support Committee and other California groups to serve Southeast Asian communities impacted by deportation.   Here’s Elijah.   Elijah Chhum: in 2019, that is when Trump 1.0, um, the administration was really targeting our Cambodian families, um, and targeting them for detention and detainment and deportation, and that is when I joined the [00:44:00] movement.   And I really have to thank the leaders of Asian Prisoner Support Committee, the lawyers of Asian Law Caucus, the faith healers and interfaith healers of Interfaith Movement for Human Integrity, and of course, the wives and mothers and children of the directly impacted folks, um, that came to CERI. And we all coalesced in this moment, um, in February and March, and particularly on March 6th of 2019 when we all came to CERI, which was this old Victorian house in East Oakland, um, by Clinton Park, and we all met in the living room ’cause it was, it was a, uh, community center that was basically in a three-bedroom apartment, um, on the second floor of a Victorian house in East Oakland.   And so 60 of us gathered together all in a circle, um, on the living room floor of CERI, and we were [00:45:00] doing political education. We were listening to elders talk about genocide and talk about resettlement, and then now fearing the worst, that, that this government, you know, this… in America, that they could also endure family separation.   Um, and so that was the moment that changed our lives and changed my life, and that began the seed of New Light Wellness, but at that moment, we were just, you know, um, healers and, and mental health practitioners, um, that tried to provide wraparound care and mutual aid, um, for families also impacted by deportation, um, and that felt isolated at that time.   New Light Wellness emerged as our own organization in the summer of July 2024. We were first a project that was, um, part of a seed grant from New Breath Foundation around the year 2020. And at that moment, um, after… And this was during the pandemic. A little bit before that, you know, in 2019 as I [00:46:00] mentioned, we were first just starting to give wraparound care for impacted families.   Um, during that time, while we were holding the, uh, four impacted individuals and their families in the Pardon Refugee campaign, um, in those three to four months of actions, our- those four community members were detained, um, and most likely were going to be deported. Um, through our advocacy with all the different organizations, as I mentioned, um, which was, you know, bilingual sessions in political education, art builds, uh, getting resolutions passed at city, city council meetings and board of supervisor meetings, um, signing petitions, creating support letter templates, uh, going to the capital and advocating at- with electeds, um,   um, so all of that built our confidence that we can continue to do this and be intentional about this, and focus on anti-deportation and give wraparound care. And so in some ways we felt like we were filling a gap, um, and a need in the movement. And so our work of New [00:47:00] Light Wellness, um, now going to 2020, this was during the pandemic.   We were all trying to scramble how to still give care to… and a community in, you know, in East and West Oakland, um, that so desperately needed us. Um, so we couldn’t stop work. Um, we had to pivot and find ways to, to, um, actually adopt Zoom and give telehealth and connect folks and get our elders to, um- Learn how to use the app and y- learn how to unmute and mute and all the things that, uh, we’re doing now.   Um, and during this moment, um, as we were learning and honing our skills in, you know, virtual telehealth, you know, spaces, um, we received this seed grant from New Breath Foundation just to start something, some virtual program to, um, to focus on folks that do end up getting deported and living in Cambodia.   And around 2020, um, you know, there’s 18 years has passed since, uh, there was a s- uh, since the [00:48:00] Repatriation Act between Cambodia and the US was signed. So for 18 years, our community members have been deported and lived in Cambodia. Um, of course, there has been organizations, uh, on the ground that support folks, um, living in Cambodia, and there are, there have been movements that have come and gone to try to bring people back, um, and fighting their case or reopening their cases.   Um, and at the same time, um- There was a delegation called kites to Southeast Asia, um, composed of different Southeast Asian orgs based in the US that went and did a listening tour. And when they came back, um, their report back was really that they needed or they saw that mental health and wellness was something that was missing, um, as a resource in Cambodia.   And so with New Breath Foundation, the seed grant was please start some type of mental health or wellness support, uh, for folks in Cambodia. And, you know, mental [00:49:00] health is, is a word and, um, a service that is, is often used by licensed clinicians. Um, and, you know, traditional therapy can only be done, um, within the licensure of that licensed clinician within, you know, the state.   And, and so it was really hard for us to then see who, who could offer, offer this wellness support or healing support, and how do we not use mental health or the term mental health, and how do we… And if, if we’re not using licensed or getting the support of licensed clinicians to hold wellness space, then, then what are we doing?   And, and so we really adopted a peer specialist model, a community health outreach worker model, and now it’s evolving to a wellness coaching model. And, and so what are the kinds of things we can do and offer across the seas that is still accountable and responsible to the folks we’re serving,   though we’re not crossing the lines of what is traditional therapy?   Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:50:00] New Light Wellness has grown so much since 2020. We’ll hear even more about their work after a short break.   We’ll hear even more about their work after a short break. You’ve been listening to music by Joe Sin and the Angkor Wat Band. Joe is an elder in Oakland and a leader in the Khmer community. Let’s hear some more [00:51:00] Welcome back.   That was Joe Sin and the Angkor Wat Band.   In our next episode, Elijah will share more about New Light Wellness’s work in California. For now, I asked him to tell us more about the organization’s new community center in designed specifically for people who have been deported from the US   Elijah Chhum: when we hold spaces with our New Light Wellness support groups, and we hold spaces in person at events and in villas and, and, you know, and, you know, we close the door or shut the gate and, you know, our folks are safe inside, they feel at ease.   They feel like they can show off their tattoos or, you know, eat their burgers and fries or have their kids run around and speak English openly and without judgment. Um, so those, just for those few hours that they’re accepted as who they are. Um, and so I know that in Cambodia there needs to be some kind of narrative change and narrative shift so that the local community can understand what [00:52:00] our impacted community went through, what our 1.5 generation went through.   Because in the eyes of the local community in Cambodia, they believe the US is so just and so fair. And so to be deported, they believe and judge our community members for doing something so egregious, um, that they deserved to be deported. And so it’s, it’s a hard conversation, and it’s a hard conversation that our local community has to either be prepared to have or to avoid or, um…   And then sometimes, um- You know, it could be very risky, um, and it could be very negative to have these conversations, especially at, at a place like a workplace. And we’ve heard s- situations where students Google the, um, you know, a lot of our folks get teaching jobs, and, um, the students are very curious about the teacher, of course, ’cause that’s how youth are.   Um, and now we live in an internet age, and, you know, deportation isn’t this, um, you know, marginalized story any longer. It’s very much in the [00:53:00] open, especially in Trump 2.0. So the youth in Cambodia are, are savvy enough to Google folks’ names or, you know, look people up by their images, and they may even out our, our community members, even in the classroom in front of their, in front of the other students.   So, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of different experiences when it, when it comes to our folks facing society in Cambodia. And, you know, some folks may say just to assimilate, that is the best way. You know, be as Cambodian as possible. Cover up your tattoos. Speak Khmer. Marry a Khmer partner. Have Khmer children.   You know, try to let go of all your tastes. Um, and that can help, and that can and has worked for some, but not for everyone. And the road to acceptance of, you know, their fate or the road to acceptance that they are there, the road to healing and even being held a space for grief, the grief of their identity, a grief of loss of, you know, family [00:54:00] relationships, um, is also part of this.   Um, so it’s not a one-size-fits-all, um, for any community member. I think it’s just offering space for folks to hear many stories, actually, um, and different experiences, and it may not be your experience that you have when you arrive in Cambodia. Um, but to honor that, you know, previously, since 2002, some p- some people did not have any resources, so it’s really honoring those that have really survived and lived in Cambodia, some of them for over 20 years now.   And so in some ways, folks that have been deported more recently, um, gets the benefit from, um, the lived experiences and the traumas of those that, that came before them. And so I think it’s learning and relearning together, um, from all the different experiences and honoring those stories of survival, um, and honoring the leadership of those that came before us.   Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:55:00] [00:56:00] Thank you for joining us for this episode of “My Family,” a project by APEX Express and the Asian Prisoner Support Committee. I invite you to move into the rest of your day by taking a moment to honor the stories of survival and the resilience of those fighting the oppressive systems today. The music in today’s program is by Joe Sin, a Khmer elder in California, and the Angkor Wat Band, and the Angkor Wat Band, and one of our favorite songs by Thao.   We’ll include links to these songs and additional resources at kpfa.org/program/APEX-express and asianprisonersupport.com. We hope you’ll join us for the final episode of “My Family” where we’ll deep dive into what happens when people are [00:57:00] forced to move to a country they’ve never known.   Thank you for listening, and we’ll see you next time on “My Family.” I’m your host, Michelle MiJung Kim, and this podcast is brought to you by APEX Express and the Asian Prisoner Support Committee. APEX Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam.   Have a great night, and see you next time         The post APEX Express – 9.17.26- My Family Ep 2: What happens in ICE detention? appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 9.10.26- Reflections on the 25th Anniversary of 9/11 10.09.2026 59мин

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Friday is the twenty-fifth anniversary of 9/11. 9/11 marked a turning point in American history when two planes were hijacked by extremists who flew into two buildings at the World Trade Center in New York and another at the Pentagon, and two thousand nine hundred and seventy-seven people were killed. It was the deadliest attack on the US since Pearl Harbor sixty years prior. Following 9/11, the US government implemented multiple pieces of significant legislation around curbing and countering terrorism and enemy combatants. Policies such as the USA Patriot Act and the Special Registration Program targeted and disproportionately affected Arabs, South Asians, and Muslims in America. Tonight on Apex Express, in recognition of the twenty-fifth anniversary, we are hearing from members of the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, ASATA. Several ASATA members will listen to Apex Express episodes about the impact of 9/11 and share their thoughts. You will hear pieces of shows starting all the way back to two thousand two and as recently as this spring.   LINKS Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, ASATA Bay Area Solidarity Summer (BASS) Black Panther Party History   SHOW TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express. [00:00:34] Miko Lee: Welcome to Apex Express. This is Miko Lee, and I’m introducing a show that is recognizing the time that we’re in. And as many of you might know, this Friday is the twenty-fifth anniversary of 9/11. 9/11 marked a turning point in American history when two planes were hijacked by extremists who flew into two buildings at the World Trade Center in New York and another at the Pentagon, and two thousand nine hundred and seventy-seven people were killed. It was the deadliest attack on the US since Pearl Harbor sixty years prior. Following 9/11, the US government implemented multiple pieces of significant legislation around curbing and countering terrorism and enemy combatants. Policies such as the USA Patriot Act and the Special Registration Program targeted and disproportionately affected Arabs, South Asians, and Muslims in America. Tonight on Apex Express, in recognition of the twenty-fifth anniversary, we are hearing from members of the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, ASATA. Several ASATA members will listen to Apex Express episodes about the impact of 9/11 and share their thoughts. You will hear pieces of shows starting all the way back to two thousand two and as recently as this spring. So stay tuned to Apex Express and reflections on the twenty-fifth anniversary of 9/11.   [00:02:06] Arati: Hi everyone. Welcome. Can you please introduce yourselves?   [00:02:09] Hafsa: Hey everyone. My name is Hafsa. I’m here from ASATA.    [00:02:13] Palvinder: Hi all, Palvinder Kaur a Sikh community organizer here in Sacramento.   [00:02:19] Priya: Hi, I’m Priya. I’m also an organizer with ASATA and a teacher based in Oakland.   [00:02:23] Arati: We’re gonna start listening to our clips now.    [00:02:25] Speaker 5: I can clearly remember my parents repeating, “Please don’t let it be a Muslim. Please don’t let it be a Muslim,” while watching the news. I didn’t process at age five the type of impact this would have on my family, but as I got older, those words stuck with me as I watched police outside our mosques and soldiers touching down in Muslim countries around the globe.   [00:02:45] George W. Bush: Freedom itself was attacked this morning by a faceless coward.    [00:02:50] Speaker 7: I got a call after the first tower had been hit.    [00:02:53] Speaker 8: I was right here. My roommate was like, “Hey, man. Wake up. You should watch this.”    [00:02:59] Speaker 9: My mom called me at 7:00 in the morning, and whenever my mom calls, I always think, “Oh, God,” you know? “What happened,” right? And my immediate reaction was, Bush has got his war now.    [00:03:10] George W. Bush: Make no mistake, the United States will hunt down and punish those responsible for these cowardly acts.   [00:03:25] Speaker 9: Pretty much as soon as the towers fell and it was determined to be a terrorist act, people were talking about Pearl Harbor, you know, day of infamy and making all those parallels. And of course, there was that immediate fear of backlash against Arab Americans. But what’s the point of revenge? It’s not gonna bring the people who died back. It’s not gonna prevent future attacks, in my opinion. If anything, it might create the conditions for more hatred.    [00:03:55] Speaker 10: It is heartbreaking when you hear somebody who’s not even a Muslim or Arab got killed in Arizona who just happened to wear this traditional clothes.   [00:04:10] Speaker 9: Within the first week, I started seeing reports on the internet about hate crimes that occurred in San Francisco.   [00:04:15] Speaker 11: Arab American Discrimination more than two hundred incidents of hate crimes. Six of these people died.    [00:04:30] Speaker 7: My mom actually called me and she was like, “Shave your beard,” you know, like, “Don’t do anything stupid.” My partner actually from Urban Groove, is a Sikh, and he was in Pittsburgh at the time, and he called me up and he said, “I’m scared for us right now.” I can’t even go to the library. I can’t even go to the gym. People are looking at me funny just getting in your car and going outside. You know, at that time we realized the education that really needed to come to a lot of Americans that Muslim or not, these are not people that blew up the World Trade Center. These are not people that hurt other Americans. You know, these are our friends, our coworkers, our family.   [00:05:15] Speaker 12: It took me a while to find my voice and publicly react and respond to the events at the close of 2001. Part of that has to do with the memory of how irrational Americans become during times of war. I didn’t wanna be on any blacklists, be monitored, stand out.    [00:05:34] Speaker 8: One of the things that I thought was really ironic was the question the media posed to the, the public. You know, how could this happen to us? Well, kind of stop and look at the history of our foreign policy. It’s pretty evident in why something like this would happen.    [00:05:50] Speaker 9: I didn’t feel like I was being disrespectful, and I didn’t think that I was somehow, like, less American for also criticizing the government. But then again, the appropriate response is that we all just fall in line behind the Bush administration, whatever they do. It doesn’t matter. Civil liberties are trampled. This is the appropriate response. You know, this is the way we show our patriotism.   [00:06:12] Arati: So most of those clips were from Robyn Takayama’s 2002 documentary in which she’s using different community voices to explore her own discovery of what patriotism looks like. It starts with, like, a small cut from the 20th anniversary, and then the rest of that is from these series of immediate reactions and lived experiences from Robyn’s documentary. So reflecting on when this documentary was released, 2002, and where we are now, what still feels resonant? Does anything feel stale or stuck in time, or are there things that you’re still like, “Yeah, that’s really where we’re at now”?    [00:06:43] Hafsa: I think for me, growing up with the Muslim community in Southern California, I remember 2002 being a very scary time as the people in this audio clip are kind of sharing. And I think now I don’t feel as stranded as an American Muslim in America as I did at that time. And to provide context, I was 11 years old at that time, and I could feel the fear from people older than me and, even my friends as we would go to recess, and we would think we’d get sniped down by someone who’s, like, looking out for us because we’re little Muslim kids. yeah, I think that’s something that I can definitely feel, where I don’t feel stranded. I don’t feel like there are, there is a lack of other communities who’ve been harmed who can also make bridges with us.    [00:07:34] Arati: Yeah. Thanks, Hafsa.    [00:07:35] Palvinder: Yeah, similarly, I was, I was a teen as well, probably 11. I grew up Sikh. My dad wore the star, a turban. I remember seeing it on the news. And I didn’t really register for me for about a little bit of time until, like, the first racist comment was made towards my dad or we heard about, the Arizona death. It wasn’t until, you know, Brown communities, Sikh communities, uh, Muslim communities were targeted, anyone who looked Muslim, right, And so for me, I think at the time, it took a while to fully register. But, you know, once it did, it was like, oh, this isn’t about it just being a Muslim. It’s like people are just perceiving anybody. And, as I grew up, I realized, the need for, communities not to say like, “Oh, but we’re not Muslim,” you know? And I think that was like a really strong push from a lot of the Sikh community organizers, reflecting back on it. But of course, you still have folks who are in the community who are just like trying to say, “But we’re not Muslim.” And that’s a, that was a problem. You know, I wanna call out that, that problematic nature, and I think the same thing happens today when we see it around communities who have different immigration statuses. and it’s like, oh, we might be X, Y, Z race, but we’re not. You know, we’re, we’re American, or we were born here, we’re a citizen. And it’s just like, but why are we othering ourselves? So I still see some of those similarities around othering. I struggle with it because I can understand from the perspective of, you know, some of the individuals trying their best, working hard, and wanting to not be targeted, but at the same time, like, it’s not the right thing to do. I think we’re seeing a lot more, collaboration now, I would say, a lot more shifting in the narrative. I know we’ve had a lot of conversations across, the Sikh community over the past two and a half decades around the problem with othering ourselves from other races and other, other identities. And so I, I think that’s one aspect of it, but I still see that same sort of nature, right? Like, um, when an attack happens or when there’s a shooting, it’s constantly like, don’t let it be a interracial identity or immigration identity, right? and, I feel like the media continues to fail us, like the narratives around people of color, immigrants, is just very dehumanizing. and somehow, white folks get humanized in all of the actions that they’re taking. I do feel like there’s a media component to it, and we have to call that out. The one thing that, you know, when one of the individuals had shared that they were like falling in line, I think about just the over-surveillance that’s occurring and the way that social media recordings and just everything going live in public, you know, the need to be vocal, but there is a sort of line, right, that we all know that we shouldn’t cross, and the fear of being seen as un-American.   [00:10:15] Arati: Thank you, Balvinder.   [00:10:16] Priya: I can briefly add on to what was shared. Something you said, Hafsa, really struck me that when you were 11 years old, even going to recess was something that created a culture of fear, and honestly, I still see that in some of my students. When there were threats of ICE in the Bay Area, my classroom was empty. I mean, like, 90% of students didn’t come to school that whole week. That culture of fear still exists, among, like, Black and brown communities, even here in the Bay. but we have made a lot of connections with each other as people of color in our organizing histories. But the culture of fear is still salient.   [00:10:51] Arati: Thanks, Priya. Do you feel like there’s stuff, you know, a lot of these were current day organizers still 25 years later reflecting on their experiences. Are there pieces of the strategy that we still feel like are salient and that we want to bring with us and continue implementing in 2026?   [00:11:06] Hafsa: I think the communities that reach out to each other, that’s something that’s still working out for us now. I remember the Japanese community reached out to our masjid because they had been interned. Like, they were in internment camps, and they knew what it felt like to be othered in America in a very vile way. And I remember learning, oh, wow, like, A) there’s a big Japanese community in Southern California, and B) they are so resilient that they care enough to reach out to us even though they went through all this already, and now they wanna show us or they wanna be there for us in whatever capacity. So I think, like, as we grow and go through these traumatic events, whatever we learn, there’s a resilience that we build when we reach out to other communities.    [00:11:55] Arati: Yeah, absolutely. All right, we’re gonna move to our next set of clips. this is gonna be a little heavy, but there’s some really incredible stuff in here thinking about the organizing that is birthed of necessity, and a lot of the Sikh coalition’s actions in the immediate aftermath, and specifically Asata’s actions here in the Bay Area.   [00:12:11] Speaker 8: At the end of the day, necessity is the mother of invention. On the day of 9/11 Sikhs in New York, where the Sikh Coalition is based, saw hate crimes occurring the afternoon of 9/11. Three members of our community were literally chased through the streets of Manhattan. The afternoon of 9/11, an elderly man was beaten to the point of having broken bones, and Sikh young children were shot with paintball guns. And so the night of, we issued a press release grieving against attack on the country and calling on a police to protect our community from hate crimes. Our first real action beyond the press release on the night of 9/11 was to create a website where community members could report hate crimes and other forms of discrimination that were occurring to them. And within that first month after 9/11, more than three hundred people logged in and, and reported acts of discrimination. Everything from, from people who had been shot at, one gentleman who was murdered, to beatings, school bullying, employment discrimination alike. And we really used the information there to get the word out to the media and the policymakers that we have a real problem that needs to be addressed immediately.   [00:13:24] So I think, you know, the heart of the activism in that first month was really creating a space for people to report what was happening and then using that information to call for change. We were able to persuade the, the city of New York to create a regulation on school bullying where none existed before, and where school administrators are required to track bullying incidents and keep statistics on them. They have to ma– use all means they possibly can to take non-punitive measures. And that regulation protects one point one million students in the public school system in New York City, regardless of race, gender, ethnicity, national origin, religion, and the like. We were just able to get the New York City mayor to sign a bill that raises the bar for when employers can reject a request for religious accommodation in the workplace. Post 9/11, Sikhs have been barred from a number of jobs, including city jobs, because of their turbans. And if you wanna work for the public transit system, you have to brand your turban or if you’re a Muslim, your hijab, with a Metropolitan Transportation Authority logo. And so we were able to get the mayor to sign a bill last week that basically bans most of those practices. And again, it protects literally millions of New Yorkers who work in the city from discrimination based on religion in the workplace. But at the end of the day, it’s again, a regulation that pushes back on the government being able to do whatever it wants and creates a space for anyone to enjoy those protections.   [00:14:50] Speaker 13: So in the Bay Area, ASATA members distributed multilingual know your rights flyers and provided legal support in collaboration with other activist groups, such as the Arab American Anti-Discrimination Committee, the former ADC in San Francisco, the National Lawyers Guild, Council of American-Islamic Relations and the Progressive Bengali Network, and ASATA members provided support by taking down the contact information of the men standing outside the Department of Justice to register so as to notify families in case they were detained or disappeared, and also provided information about free legal resources.    [00:15:28] Speaker 14: There’s a really moving testimony of a young Muslim girl from Seattle, Washington. Her and her mother were held in detention for, I think, nine months- Mm … without charges or anything, and her mother actually almost died while they were in detention. It was just such a traumatic experience, and I mean, we really need to let these stories be heard.    [00:15:46] Speaker 15: I wanted to point something out, that the figures from May 2003 from the INS or BCIS say that the number of people registered as of May 11th, 2003, were 82,581. Number of people detained, and these are their figures, so who knows what the real figures really are, 2,761. Number of people still detained at that time, 158, and the number of people charged with terrorism-related crimes, zero.    [00:16:19] Speaker 16: Reports indicate that some of those taken into custody were harshly treated. They were handcuffed, shackled, placed in cold cells without adequate clothing or blankets, blankets, forced to sleep standing or on concrete floors, hosed down with cold water, and denied adequate food and water.    [00:16:40] Speaker 17: And I would like to ask for volunteers because when we monitor, when we stand here and monitor people, there are less detentions, there are less questions, and people get done quickly. Some people are afraid to go alone, and they can take a companion with them. If we want safety and security, we cannot buy it by terrorizing other people. We need to change our thinking. We need to change our ways. As superpowers, we need to start empowering people, not taking them away, not putting them in prisons, not detaining. This country has become so secretive. Secret evidence, secret detentions, secret deportations. Everything is secret except our privacy. So we need to really take our country back.   [00:17:32] Arati: Okay. So that was a little longer and definitely somewhat heavy. but I think it’s really interesting to hear how people were talking about this, especially post 9/11, and how they were talking about the country in general, and then their work in specific. What things stood out to you from how our communities were able to spring into action immediately post 9/11?   [00:17:49] Palvinder: I was a teen, so to me, as I learned all of the immediate action that was taken, it was really incredible and inspiring, so many different areas of it, right? Raising awareness around the detentions, trying to create that website. Working on school policies. Like, there was so much that was happening, and so much that continues to happen. Great to see community springing into action. I also struggled for so long in my early organizing days, being frustrated that these systems were not created for us, these policies were not created for us. And then when you learn so many of the policies were literally created against us- post 9/11, the over-policing, the over-targeting, it was just so challenging, right? Like, we have already so much, so many more challenges that we’re dealing with, and then here we have additional barriers to just kind of living a, a decent life here. But you know, still continue to be inspired by, the way that folks sort of look to heal the community and support. And so I think that, like, one of the things I think about is, is the community within the communities that we were able to create that culture of healing, as much as possible, and then also thinking about the greater change and sort of protections for our community. I struggle with the hate crime stuff, you know, and the data there because, you know, there’s so much around how data is used. Is it used in a beneficial way? Is it even, you know, supporting anything that’s gonna create some real change? and then of course there’s a surveillance question. But again, like I truly feel that folks thought this was coming from a good place. Um, and so I just continue to be mindful around the tactics that we’re using, being mindful of like going fast but also being thoughtful and considerate around how these might impact us in the long run. And I, I hope that we continue to look at that. not just finding sort of immediate solutions that might work for us now, but seeing the long-term impact of them too.    [00:19:34] Arati: Yeah, totally. Would love to hear folks’ thoughts on this as well, and also I’m curious, I’ve, I’ve now heard a few of you say a couple times just like what it meant to be a child at the time, and yeah, maybe not actually being tapped in in that moment of what organizing and activism was taking place when you were that young. But I’m curious also about kind of hearing about it more, and I’m sure as you grew up but also now as an adult, kind of what, how you feel like that maybe has shaped you.    [00:20:00] Hafsa: It’s great to hear that there was a collection of bullying and racism happening in schools and that being reported because 100% I’m sure each of those data points represents so many other unreported happenings. For reference, I went to high school in Huntington Beach, California. I did not know the demographics of that area until I left high school, and it helped me understand my experiences there, especially with the teachers who were allowed to be racist. One of the only books in my history teacher’s class was a book about how the Quran is false. He was a white man, Christian white man, and this was a history class. and he was a beloved teacher, beloved. And this is just one of many things that happened and that went unreported because we thought, oh, we are lesser than them. We do have to stick together. This is how they talk to us in front of us and behind our backs. So I remember hanging out exclusively with other Muslim students who also wore hijab because that’s who we were pushed into a corner and you look around and that’s who’s there. And I remember going to the masjid and every time there was someone who didn’t quite look Arab or South Asian or generally Muslim, if it’s like a white person entering the masjid, I’m thinking, “Is that a government operative?” And it was sometimes. Every masjid I knew had at least one person who was hella shady, and they were spying on us, and I wonder where that data lives right now.    [00:21:30] Arati: Yeah. Absolutely. And that’s hard not to think about in the surveillance state we’re living in now.   [00:21:36] Priya: I was only three when 9/11 happened, but as an organizer now, I am really looking back on how our communities showed up for each other and provided like mutual aid relationship building, and that’s the kind of organizing that I wanna build on now in the Bay Area. So the way that like we showed up and we did know your rights in different languages and we, you know, took people’s names down, like we’re still doing that, and that’s the kind of work that I like want us to keep doing and that I feel really proud to be a part of. We have ICE watch at our school where neighbors walk around our school every single morning for an hour, and they have their whistle ready. So if they see ICE, they know how many times to blow the whistle, and we will, you know, spring into action immediately. But yeah, that kind of like relationship building and my neighbor’s got my back, and I’ve got yours, and we’re like in this together, and, and we live together, but we also like know each other’s names, and we know what it means to keep each other safe because that’s not what the government is doing for us. That’s what stands out to me from post 9/11 organizing, and that’s what I wanna build on.    [00:22:46] Palvinder: Yeah, echoing that. Community and connection and relationship building and healing. I remember specifically there was, in Fresno, Piara Singh, an elderly Sikh man, got attacked. And, our first thing was like, “Okay, what do we do? Like, how do we heal as a community as well?” Of course, the news media attention is there forefront for, like, a day or two, maybe a week max. but you know, when the individual recovers, or they are gonna be recovering, there’s really not much attention after that. And for us, it was really like, how do we allow our elders to feel safe, right? How do we allow our community to feel safe, that same walk that this individual is taking, you know? And so I think there was components around that about healing, but also wanting to move fast. I think one of my greatest lessons would just be, centering healing and community and relationship building throughout all of it. no matter how fast we wanna go or how quickly we need to go, I just think about the need to center that. And I think more and more trying to find ways when we aren’t springing into action about how we can implement some of that and make sure that that’s also centered to the work that we’re doing.   [00:23:51] Arati: Yeah. I’m curious if anyone has any thoughts on pieces of the specific organizing that was happening that feel maybe relevant. I’m thinking about the non-punitive bullying measures, the non-discrimination activities that had broad benefits, monitoring for safety and security, the description of the detention conditions. I know we’ve touched on some of these already, but I wonder if there’s anything else that’s coming up when people are thinking about strategizing and coalition building in 2026.   [00:24:16] Hafsa: All the information I got as a child was through gossips and rumors from elders who were talking, and they were saying, “Hey, we have CIA operatives in the masjid. Hey, we might be attacked. You gotta watch out.” So I think just that sort of conversation or that kind of community interaction is so important because the media wasn’t telling me how to save my butt. It was telling me that I’m a scary person, and I’m gonna grow up to do something terrible one day. And I couldn’t find an ounce of that within me, so.   [00:24:51] Arati: All right. Thanks everybody. Let’s move to our next clip. speaking of media, perfect transition. this is a reflection around the 10-year anniversary of 9/11, and a lot of the audio in these clips are actually thinking about when the media started talking to us rather than just about us.   [00:25:07] Speaker 19: It’s the first time we actually have media approaching us around the time of the anniversary asking us what have been the effects on our communities. Uh, whereas before it would, you know, sort of be focused very much around the families that were directly affected by 9/11 and occasionally we’d get a call to check in about, oh, you know, are you– is your community facing any backlash? We’ve received a decent number of media requests talking about what the last ten years have been like. What have the various ways that our communities have been affected. And at the same time, uh, you know, I think a lot of the exposés in particular that have been criticizing what law enforcement and government agencies have done in the last ten years, a lot of those have seemed to come out in the last, uh, couple of weeks. Mother Jones did a extensive special on, uh, the FBI and their use of undercover agents and informants across the country. The AP has been doing a series, uh, the Associated Press has been doing a series on the NYPD, their collaboration with the CIA and, and their, uh, mapping of Muslim communities in New York. NPR has been doing stories and, and that it seems that they– there is an interest in the media to sort of be more critical, uh, slightly more critical of law enforcement agencies and, uh, starting to demand some form of transparency and accountability that so far they were just given a free leeway to do whatever they wanted, and everything was justified in the name of protecting, uh, our cities. Uh, but now there’s starting to be some questions are starting to be raised.   [00:26:48] Arati: Yeah, I feel like this kind of feels really specific in terms of what we were just talking about, and it draws us back into that idea. and I’m curious about if we have reflections on how movement work has changed, especially now that we do have to kind of consider how to engage with the current media apparatus and how does responding to what the media is saying about us, trying to work with the media to share out different kinds of messaging, is that something that folks are thinking about?   [00:27:11] Priya: It just reminds me of how like three weeks ago it came out that the federal government was spying on organizing activities in Minnesota among unions, among organizers. Like this is … no surprise this is still happening, but it can be helpful to look back and, and think about how our communities have experienced this before, and how we came together and how we can prevent it. Or just be more aware of the possibility that it will continue to happen.   [00:27:40] Palvinder: I think the common thing that I kinda see in, my perspective of it is, like, in the moment when something happens, it’s constantly the same thing, right? Oh my gosh, let’s go talk to the community, and, like, media wants to paint their narrative of it, right? Questions are very specific. and then there’s, like, a timeframe where the reflection happens, right? 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 years later. And it’s like, oh, let’s see the impact on the community. Let’s see how they’re affected. But in the moment, when the opportunity is so prime, like, we don’t really have that. I mean, I think more and more I’ve seen folks, even in, like, media trainings with the community. And so I’ve really appreciated when folks don’t actually answer those questions, and they just shift their response to what they really wanna get across because that’s really what our community wants to share. You know, we don’t wanna just always answer the question and kind of fill the narrative that the media wants in the moment. but really, like, sharing it from our perspective. And so just greater need to write our own histories, document what’s happening. I think we’re so caught up in the moment sometimes that we don’t even do that. And of course, there’s a balance, right, of, action is being taken, what sort of impact those, taking photos or videos of those actions have as well. I just really think that we need to continue to make sure that the stories and the narratives that we want to share even in the moment are shared. and so flipping that script is really great for folks who can do that. I’m not an expert on that. I hope to be one day. But, yeah, just wanna also acknowledge that the reflection piece is, when I feel like the media starts talking to us.   [00:29:14] Hafsa: Yeah, I think, something that I’ve shifted within myself because, just, talking to media and, you know, being able to represent myself and my community, that’s not something that’s within my skillset. Like, that’s not something I definitely work on. But what I do love to work on is increasing representation of people who look like us in other areas. And I think back as 11-year-old American Muslim immigrant growing up in America, what did me and my friends need? And something that we didn’t have access to was really, like, the outdoors and nature, and that is just the number one healing thing, and that’s something that a lot of immigrant communities cannot find when we come to America ’cause we are put in areas that don’t have nature, where it’s redlined districts or places that we can afford. They don’t have access to nature. So something I like to do is try to organize for those communities to get us out in nature and feel safe because when we can feel safe in the world alone, we can feel ourselves in a way that we can’t when we hear media tell us that we are scary or we are worthless or whatever else. It’s a great place to unwrap those lies and really feel ourselves.    [00:30:22] Arati: That’s a beautiful reflection. I really appreciate you thinking about what you needed as a child, what our communities need, and, what, what it feels like to work with the media, but also to be like, ” That might not be our friend.” So how do we protect ourselves from the media? Thank you for sharing that.   [00:30:37] Palvinder: I’ll also just quickly add on the media piece, and this is like a definitely based off my, my experiences. There are certain folks who have access to media, you know, in the community. There are certain folks and organizations who the media will always go to. And, you know, I understand they’ve built those relationships, they’ve invested those resources, and I would just really encourage, you know, and continue to encourage those folks to really think about the folks who are on the ground doing the work as well, and giving opportunity to those voices as well when they want them. cause of course, not all organizers and activists want those, opportunities. But, I just think that it’s important to share the diversity of voices amongst the community, and while many of those who have access and privilege with media, they are very niche. and yes, they’re eloquent in their speaking, they’re great at sort of getting what message they want across, but we’re also very diverse communities. You know, there are some folks who are gonna pick up the pen and then others who are gonna go to the streets, you know, and organize. There’s others contacting decision-makers. So it just all depends. But, yeah, I would just really encourage our communities to really think about, sharing the mic really.   [00:31:46] Arati: Okay. Thanks so much for sharing that. These are really, really incredible reflections. Um, we’re gonna move to our next set of clips. A lot of this is gonna be audio from a massive Stop Urban Shield demonstration in 2014, which is nested inside of an interview with Zahra Billoo from CAIR or the Council on American Islamic Relations. So we get to hear from Zahra, we get to hear from the Stop Urban Shield work, which was happening right here in the Bay Area, and, um, I’m excited to hear y’all’s thoughts.   [00:32:14] Speaker 20: I think a, a really huge local victory for Bay Area residents to celebrate is all of the organizing that happened to push back Urban Shield. I don’t know if folks are familiar with Urban Shield, but it’s essentially like a massive law enforcement training exercise where they train SWAT teams and sell weapons and, you know, military-grade weaponry for domestic police agencies. And so when you wonder why the local police department in Ferguson has a tank or things of that sort, or why people are dying because police are using military-grade weapons, a lot of that’s happening in this culture of this Urban Shield convention, and so it’s been coming to Alameda County for a couple of years now.   [00:32:54] Speaker 21: On the second day of Urban Shield, community members filled the intersection of 10th and Broadway, just outside of the Marriott where the vendor show was taking place.   [00:33:11] Speaker 23: Can you read the sign that you’re holding?    [00:33:15] Speaker 22: Don’t shoot. From Ferguson, Gaza to Oakland, our homes are not war zones.    [00:33:21] Speaker 23: Simi Makhijani. I’m here with the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action. We’re out here to stand in solidarity with all those that are targeted by state-sponsored violence, whether at the hands of Oakland, Ferguson, New York Police Department, or the drone attacks on Pakistan, or the struggles against Zionism in Palestine or Hindu supremacy in India. After September 11th here, in terms of surveillance and unwarranted detentions of Muslims and those mistaken as Muslims in the Sikh population, and in other countries from Kashmir to Gujarat to Gaza, you know, the attacks on Muslims. We haven’t always been recognized or as visible as we should be in standing together, walking together in these struggles here, and it’s the primary reason that we’re trying to be here, because it’s really important that non-Black communities of color not be silent on this issue.   [00:34:13] Speaker 21: Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders came out in force, and nearly everyone I spoke with made links between the militarization of police in our communities in the US and the militarism perpetuated by the US throughout Asia.    [00:34:26] Speaker 24: The increasing brutality of the local police and the paranoia about terrorist attacks stems directly from the attack on the Twin Towers. Of course, giving local police military-grade equipment is older than 9/11, but we’ve seen an upswing in funding from the Department of Homeland Security. So in that way, Urban Shield is one facet of the war on terror.    [00:34:45] Speaker 20: There was a really great coalition that formed on the ground in the Bay Area, primarily out of Oakland and San Francisco, that said, “Look, you can’t push violent policing in our community, that we’re not going to let you use Oakland as a base for that kind of development and activity.” And so they organized for a couple of months leading up to it, and then around the convention last weekend, there were very large rallies and huge visibility events. They also got a couple of people to move their events from the Oakland Marriott, which is where the convention was happening. And as a result, the, the news or the rumor out right now is that Urban Shield will not be returning to the Bay Area. And even if it does, I always find victories even in the organizing, right? Getting hundreds if not thousands of people out to push back against violent policing, against civil liberties erosion is a very big deal. And so if folks wanna learn more about that campaign, they can simply Google Stop Urban Shield.   [00:35:41] Arati: I just think there’s so many incredible moments in that and, that was a big win in 2014. In thinking, in particular about how the speakers described Urban Shield as an extension of the surveillance state and as an extension of the war on terror, and then about the campaign itself around that event, I’m wondering what lessons the current day movement organizers can take from this.   [00:36:01] Palvinder: I think the biggest thing is probably that it’s not in a vacuum, right? there’s a lot of other movements that are very similar. There’s a lot of other things that are a part of these larger systems, right? specifically, it was mentioned as the war on terror, right? So this is just one part of that, one facet of it, and I think it was really great that there was specific call-out for Ferguson, Gaza, other international movements as well across the globe, and I think that that’s super critical, in the organizing work that we do. As much as we feel like our local communities might be targeted, this is all part of a greater system. It’s not happening in a vacuum, and we have so much to learn from the organizing that’s happening in those areas as well.   [00:36:39] Hafsa: Yeah, thanks for mentioning that. I think something that helped me get through the time post 9/11 was just realizing that this has happened in America before, like many different times, specifically to the African American community. And I remember reading about Malcolm X, reading about Martin Luther King and thinking, “Oh, these are people who can be my role models. I don’t look like them, but I’m pretty sure I feel things that they felt.” And even, like, reading bell hooks or Du Bois, like they didn’t look like me, but we shared a similar struggle, and I hope that in the future someone can look at our community, and maybe they don’t look like us, but they will say, “Hey, these people fought for the same thing I did,” and it was basically against America’s attack on human rights, which has been happening since America was founded.   [00:37:27] Arati: I know for me, one of the reasons it feels great to listen to this clip is because right now it feels like we’re just in a cacophony of oppression, right? Like, every single day there are these new policies, new initiatives, absurd tweets, just so much messaging coming, and so many policies also happening that we’re constantly contesting with. We’re constantly trying to fight against. And, it can feel really hard. It can feel really hopeless. And I guess I’m curious about how we can think about these examples of, like, local work, like Urban Shield or any other work that you’ve engaged in recently, and think about how does, that local, work on the ground help fit into this larger thread or this national moment around liberation   [00:38:07] Hafsa: I also very much appreciate that these communities were able to show up to stop things like Urban Shield, because specifically, like in my experience growing up in the Muslim community, I was just so much in my corner just trying to survive that I wouldn’t even be able to think about this larger picture of what’s happening on the local government le- level that’s going to affect me and my kids or whomever else. So I really appreciate that recognition of solidarity and people showing up and saying, “Hey, I know someone who hurts more than me and I’m gonna go out to the streets and stand up for them and protest for them.” ‘Cause I think that’s something that’s also helped me even when my community has been demonized. It’s always think about someone else who’s been demonized more than you and make that my fight song rather than my own experiences, because that can be a little harder.   [00:38:55] Palvinder: I think the other thing for me is realizing that when folks can’t show up, there’s other avenues too, right? So not everyone has to be in the streets protesting or showing up to these causes. I think about the need to make sure that our organizing is accessible for all people, and that accessibility looks different. I feel like especially when I was in my, like, 20s, I felt like showing up at protests and, at organizing events was the main way. And if you weren’t there, you weren’t down for the cause. And I think for me, I learned very quickly that there were reasons why they actually couldn’t go and show up there, you know, for their own safety. Just the need to be able to have those different actions so organizing can be accessible.   [00:39:33] Hafsa: And I think having CAIR as an organization has been really great. That’s been a constant in my life. It was pretty new when I was younger, and I’m so glad that it’s still up and running and they’re still, like, you know, fighting the good fight. and Balvinder like what you’re talking about, like how not everyone can show up to a protest. I remember my first protest, and I told myself at the time, it’s my last protest. It was with the Sierra Club in Huntington Beach, and it was a silent protest on the Iraq War. And I was one of two hijabis. The other one was my friend. Everyone else was white, and we were supposed to be silent, walking down Huntington Beach. And who was targeted? It was me by other white people, racists. And I’m like, “I’m silent protests. Don’t talk. I don’t know what to do.” And I was, like, 17, 18, and I was like, “I’m never doing this again.” So I’m so glad that organizations like CAIR are there and I can actually organize in the Bay Area with people who look like me rather than being told how to organize by people who don’t understand my struggle, don’t understand my experience, and won’t stand up for me when they see something go wrong.   [00:40:36] Arati: Oh my, oh my-    [00:40:37] Palvinder: Yeah. Oh, oh my gosh. I would not have shown up to any protest if that was my only experience with a protest. I would’ve been like, “No, these people are all crazy,” and like, “Where’s my community at?”    [00:40:47] Hafsa: Oh my- No, I switched to anarchism after that. I was like, “No, the Democrats don’t have it figured out. I cannot… Y’all don’t understand me. You want to maybe, but that’s it.”   [00:40:59] Arati: Yeah. I feel like at this point I’m like, if there’s a protest, we need to have a safety training. We need to know what are the people’s risk tolerances. I’m so sorry that happened to you. That is wild. But it’s also… I mean, sadly, it’s not unique. I think a lot of people have a story of being, like, at a protest and then not being protected. So yeah, how are we, how are we really thinking about how we’re protecting ourselves and our community, for sure.    [00:41:21] Hafsa: Yeah, and it was a good experience because the Sierra Club fights for land, and knowing that they don’t necessarily fight for me gives me information that, hey, I have to do that fight because I’m in environment. I’m a field biologist, so that’s something I keep in mind, I think. I’m one of the few people who can actually understand the struggles of the animals and the humans, and that’s very rare.   [00:41:41] Arati: Do we have any other thoughts on the Bay Area specifically and how we might be positioned in the Bay to support this fight for liberation?   [00:41:48] Hafsa: I moved to the Bay Area because I saw that there was a solidarity there that wasn’t quite there in Southern California where I lived, in Orange County, and I wanted to learn more from that because I didn’t wanna just hang out with people who look like me. I wanted to hang out with people who had all these different kinds of experiences with the American government, with being discriminated against, because The answer is there. It’s between all of us. It’s not within our little silos of community. It’s when we all connect together, and that’s also what brought me to joining ASATA as well.   [00:42:17] Priya: I echo that. I also grew up in SoCal in a really white, wealthy suburb called Manhattan Beach, which sounds not too dissimilar from Huntington Beach. And yeah, the message of solidarity that the Bay Area really espouses is what brings me here. And, the way that we show up for each other in the Bay feels uniquely inspiring. Whether it’s Urban Shield, whether it’s like, oh, there’s a Muslim ban, we’re at SFO within like hours. Oh, we’re gonna, accompany people to their ICE court hearings. Like, I really feel like we just show up in unique ways. And yesterday I did canvassing for ICE Out of Dublin, and it’s, that similar message of like we’re out here, we’re talking to neighbors. And like Balvinder said, there are so many ways that you can show up for each other, but we have a history of doing it.    [00:43:03] Arati: I love that. This takes me right to the next thing I wanted to talk about, which is, a lot of people organizing now don’t have a living memory of 9/11, right? And so we’re gonna listen to some clips, from Deepa, who’s a community organizer, and Fahd Ahmed, who was the legal and policy director of Desis Rising Up and Moving. And, they both have some kind of reflections around social movements, young organizers, and, yeah, we’re gonna, we’re gonna think a little bit about that as we continue to, like, look forward.   [00:43:29] Speaker 19: Social movements have always been the main vehicle for change whether in the United States or the world abroad. And and the power of social movements is that the democratic potential that you build, the people’s political awareness that you build, the power that you build doesn’t dissipate away just based on an election. Doesn’t dissipate based on the changing of a person in power and that if we really had truly strong social movements that built coalitions, built alliances as were discussed earlier, that those movements retain power through various ups and downs, through various issues. And if those movements are infused with a deeper political understanding, historical awareness, that they can be very powerful in holding government accountable. While all these sorts of acts may happen, blowbacks may happen, backlash may happen, at the end of the day, we– the best– the government is the only place that we can hold accountable through our taxes, through our votes, through our social mobilization.   [00:44:33] Speaker 25: Some of the young folks that are entering or working at nonprofits now, supporting South Asian nonprofits don’t have a living memory of 9/11 and the global war on terror, and they have been politicized in different ways, right, over the last eight years, for example, the pandemic, global wars, etc. And so there are a couple of ways in which I’ve been thinking about how we can support South Asian young people. So for example, how can we share historical analysis and political analysis so that young people understand that they are part of a trajectory of South Asian activism that actually started well before 9/11, before the nineteen sixties, right? And that continues to today. So they don’t feel fragmented. So that’s something that I’ve been sitting with a lot. Another is around pathways into public service and community service and into the nonprofit sector. So how could we support young people in terms of building their skills in having pathways open to them into our nonprofit organizations? And then finally, how do we support them, um, so that they can do this work for the long run? You know, we all struggle with burnout. We all struggle with sustainability. What are some lessons learned that we can pass on? What are some best practices? That’s something that’s been sitting with me quite a bit, and I hope that the coalition will really think about supporting young people’s leadership and finding different avenues and pathways to do that.   [00:46:00] Arati: What do we think about how we can share historical analyses that will help people new to organizing and understanding their role? Or how can we support young people in building skills that kind of help get them into movement work?   [00:46:11] Hafsa: I think reading literature is very, very, very important. When I think about what’s helped me understand myself better, it was things like the Black Panthers, and that’s another reason why I moved to the Bay Area. Like, they’re organizing. They weren’t just there armed guards, like, policing their, policing other people from their community. It was also, like, you know, free lunch programs for the kids. It was a holistic understanding of community and what it meant, what it really meant. Like, hey, we got us and no one else got us.    [00:46:43] Palvinder: Some of my favorite things has been around BASE, so Bay Area Solidarity Summer gives context to like, young organizers, about the long-standing history of South Asian organizing, and it is so diverse. I remember the first time I saw it, I was, like, amazed. I was just like, “Wow,” “This is really great.” It was so inclusive of different communities, in the larger sort of South Asian stream of organizing, and so it was just really great. I think Anirudha and Mrinalini cover that South Asian timeline, each year at BASE, and it just allows you to see the context that this was pre-9/11. This is, going back to the ’60s, ’70s there’s been so many other movements that have happened, and just all of the different actions that have been taken. And so I think that’s really, really helpful to see it across communities, religious, minority, state, countries, all of that, in the larger, broader South Asian group and then just the need for training and educating and informing young people. I think it’s never too early to start. And then I think just investing in our communities. I have to say, I know for the Punjabi Sikh community, I worked for Jakara Movement, was our first community organizer. We had a part-time staff member, turned full-time staff member prior to me working. And I remember when I would tell people that I’m, like, an organizer, they would be like, “No, no, no, but like, like, what’s your job? Like, what do you actually do?” So it was interesting to see when I would do the work, they would be so appreciative, they’d love it, and they wanted it to happen. But the investment in understanding that this can also be a job and needs to be a job, in doing development work in the community around the organization, I just saw that, we want things to happen, but we don’t wanna put our money there always. And I think that if we want for greater social movements and greater advancements in our communities to happen, we need to be like other communities. We need to have organizations that are established, investing in paid positions. And so many of us do this in our free time, right? And I think that so much of it happens in that. But we can see where folks in social movements have gone further, and that’s because there’s been intentional and critical investments that have sustained them. So great call-out to, I think all of our communities to making sure that we’re investing in this because we can only do so much of it in our free time.   [00:48:50] Priya: I really appreciated the thread of education, and I was a BASE alum, and Aditi gave me a great overview of South Asian organizing. And, like you said, Balvinder, it’s such an in-depth history. and it really has helped inform my current politics and what South Asian organizing can look like today. and I think the other way that I try to educate myself is just, like, be curious, ask questions. Ask my grandparents what their experience during partition was like. Ask my parents what their experience post 9/11 was like, and just, learn from each other and learn those histories also, public education curriculum, especially in Oakland, is getting better and better. Like, all ninth graders have to take ethnic studies. We talk about the Black Panther Party starting in, like, fifth grade in Oakland schools, so I feel like there’s a lot of progress being made.   [00:49:39] Speaker 27: I think that we need to begin to dream again. I think especially among progressives, there is a great despair and a cynicism and even a pessimism as we’re entering a new decade and so much of the apparatus of oppression that we’ve inherited after 9-11 have not, has not been rolled back. The wars persist. And I think it begins with dreaming again enough to inspire the, inspire movement building. And I think that we need a new frame for movement building. I think rights separate us as if, you know, immigrant rights is separate from LGBT rights is separate from Muslim and South Asian rights. I think that we need to ground our movement building in shared moral imperatives. There is a groundswell out there of not only young Sikh and Muslim and South Asian Americans, but really a whole generation of Americans who are really hunger, hungry to emerge from the shadow of 9-11 and think of this, the end of the 9-11 decade as an end to a chapter of history and the beginning of a new chapter.   [00:50:37] Esha: So again, this is kind of us tying back to what we’ve been talking about, which is just how, how do we connect that work and build on top of it, and also keep people engaged and continue to build solidarity. so would love… I know we’ve kinda touched on this as a through line of all of our conversation, but would just love to hear your hopes for the future and, and what you see as a positive, and where we can go from here.   [00:51:01] Palvinder: Esha, I’m a bit critical about this, I’m gonna start with the critical, but I’m hoping to end on a positive here. I think when I hear a lot of this dreaming and need to close this chapter, I struggle because I think there is a lot of healing that still needs to take place and a lot of healing that never took place because we come from communities that sweep things under the rug. When I think about a lot of my experiences, a lot of my parents’ generation’s experiences, they just never talked about it. They had to provide for their family. They had to move on. They had to figure out how do they continue to have space for Punjabi Sikh folks in the Central Valley or in, in Northern California. I know when I went to college and was exposed to folks who came from different socioeconomic backgrounds, things just really changed, and there was a privilege with being able to dream and think about your future without having to think about, “Is my dad gonna be safe?” “Are we gonna have enough food?” Right? Or any of those questions. So Yes, all in for dreaming. I think there’s a need to make sure that we’re healing and we’re uplifting everyone that’s a part of the community as well. and so dreaming means that we’re thinking about the organizing. We’re thinking about what’s coming into our futures and how are we gonna get there, and it means taking everyone with us. I am very hopeful, and I’ve seen in the last two decades of my own organizing and my own community building, the ways that folks are showing up for others who don’t have those same backgrounds. I see the conversations around those who are detained in this current climate right now conversations that my own parents may not have had, right? Just advancements in their own thinking around, a lot of the politics in the past eight to 12 years even, and I see that across the community as well. Not everyone, of course. I don’t know when we’ll get there, but I definitely see greater humanity and just connecting back to folks and seeing those inhumane conditions that people are living through. Still have a lot of work to do around, when we talk about homelessness and substance use and so much other stuff. But I think we’re making ample progress, and it’s because we’re really trying to bring everyone, the generations ahead of us that, never wanted to have these conversations and we never thought we could ever change their perspective. Some of them are slowly moving over. But I am grateful for just organizations and people and spaces and community, who can come together. And I know Aisa was like, “Oh, this has been great.” I feel the exact same way, right? Like, you know, three of us are joining on a call, and I feel like we’re able to come and connect in this space because of that sort of shared linkage around organizing and care and healing. So just really grateful for spaces like this and people who continue to really think critically about the way that we do this work.   [00:53:43] Hafsa: Yeah, thanks for sharing that, Balvinder. I also grew up in, like, a very low-income household in government housing in Southern California, and I think a lot of American Muslim immigrants in the area were also in a similar situation. And, I think about the struggles, the everyday struggles that my parents still have to go through. There’s no, like, healing. There’s no understanding of 9/11 still. They’re still working every single day. And yeah, I can dream of a better life for them, but I’ve kind of been coming to terms now that they’re not gonna experience the freedom that I wish we could all experience in their lifetime. And yeah, like I said, it all comes down to the socioeconomic fight in this country, and really throughout the world, where we can say it’s all these marginalized communities because of what we look like, but it all really comes down to keeping the classes separate and keeping a very high income class continuously growing, and the rest of us are just the soil that they use to extract nutrients from. And there has been a larger struggle of socioeconomic issues throughout history, and that’s also something that’s really helped me understand my own position in the world. Because even though 9/11 did position me as a perpetrator of violence that I’ve never done, I realize that there’s… it, it, it really helps to link myself and my experiences to struggle that have already happened because it makes you not feel alone, and it really helps you feel that solidarity even with people who are not alive still, and that’s really helpful. I, I think about ancestors a lot, and I think of we… A lot of us don’t have access to our actual grandparents or great-grandparents because of partition or whatever else, so I’ve looked to people like Malcolm X and other people like that. And even I’ve read a lot of Tolstoy . Like, even it, it’s not just something that, um, has to happen right now with the people that are alive right now. It’s a long line of human rights movements and the thirst for freedom that we’re all a part of, and that makes me feel a lot more contained as I’m going through the more difficult parts of being part of a marginalized community in America today.   [00:56:05] Arati: We would love to hear your thoughts as well on that last clip.   [00:56:08] Priya: I appreciate the call to dreaming and thinking beyond what exists, and I feel like music and art and all the ways that we, you know, practice joy and experience that in community with each other is part of dreaming and, um, yeah, like creating what we don’t yet see.   [00:56:29] Arati: Absolutely. So that was a clip from Valarie Kaur, who’s an award-winning filmmaker, and we thought it was, her words about dreaming, y’all’s words about the future, hope, solidarity, also pain, and how we heal and how we move together, that’s the note we wanted to end on. So thank you so much for sharing your stories, your strategy, your, hope, your dreams, your experiences of isolation, and your experiences of community, because we’re not gonna get through this without each other, and we look forward to continuing working together and organizing together. And one day we will, we will win, and we’ll all be liberated. Thanks, everyone.   [00:57:09] Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Pretti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by Swati Rayasam, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night. The post APEX Express – 9.10.26- Reflections on the 25th Anniversary of 9/11 appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 9.3.26 – Beneath the Surface with Margaret Cho & Masaki Fujihata 03.09.2026 59мин

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight on APEX Express, Host Miko Lee is going Beneath the Surface — with two incredible artists, Margaret Cho and Masaki Fujihata. Both artists have been working in their fields for decades. Margaret Cho — stand-up comedy, sitcom, filmmaking, writing. Masaki Fujihata — a pioneer in new media art.And here’s what they have in common: they’ve both shifted with the times… but never lost their own voice. Their vision has stayed singular, even as the world around them changed. Listen in to APEX Express   Check out: BeHere / 1942: A New Lens on the Japanese American Incarceration at the Oakland Museum from Friday, September 18, 2026—Sunday, December 27, 2026 Masaki Fujihata website Choligarchy at Berkeley Rep, September 15-19th, 2026  Margaret Cho website Interweaving: Indo-Persian Exchanges Interweaving: Indo-Persian Exchanges at Oakland Asian Cultural Center, September 11, 2026 7pm Artists featured: arjun-verma.com www.pezhham.com  MazdakAlipour.com emanhashimi.com   Show Transcripts [00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.   [00:00:34] Miko Lee: Tonight on Apex Express, I’m going beneath the surface with two incredible artists, Margaret Cho and Masaki Fujihata. I’m your host, Miko Lee.   [00:00:57] These are two artists who’ve been working in their fields for decades. Margaret Cho, stand-up comedy, sitcom, filmmaking, writing, and Masaki Fujihata, a pioneer in new media art. And here’s what they have in common. They’ve both shifted with the times, but they never lost their own voice. Their vision has stayed singular, even as the world around them have changed. So stick with me. First up, my conversation with Margaret Cho   [00:01:29] Welcome Margaret Cho to Apex Express.    [00:01:32] Margaret Cho: Thank you.    [00:01:34] Miko Lee: I wanna start with my question I ask most of my guests, which is who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?    [00:01:41] Margaret Cho: I think my people are Asian American, my people are queer, my people are all ages, my people are progressive, my people have hope for the future. That’s what I’m hoping. I think that’s it, and that’s who I am too.    [00:01:56] Miko Lee: Thank you. You started stand-up so young in this very Bay Area, and I think you started at age 14. I’m wondering what’s your earliest childhood memory of being a performer?    [00:02:08] Margaret Cho: My earliest childhood memory of being a performer was I was actually a singer. I was a singer in a band of children, and I was probably maybe five years old. We were on a show on KTVU. I believe it was called Asia Now, and it was filming in the studio and I wouldn’t stop waving at my mother, who was just off camera. And after the performance the band leaders asked me not to come back. Aw. I remember that because I could not stop waving at my mother and so I kept breaking that fourth wall. That was my first memories of performance.   [00:02:47] Miko Lee: And what did that feel like to you?    [00:02:50] Margaret Cho: I didn’t really get the idea. I didn’t really understand television exactly quite. I didn’t understand why we were performing. I didn’t understand why I couldn’t say hi to my mother while I was performing. I didn’t have a real comprehension of like even like rejection of what that meant or even performance or what that meant or television. So all these things that I come to learn about very well, rejection, performance, and television is my whole life. But back then I didn’t understand the importance of all those things.    [00:03:22] Miko Lee: But there must’ve been some kind of zhuzh for you that you said, “Ooh, I wanna keep doing this,” right?    [00:03:28] Margaret Cho: Yeah, I think so. Much later though, you know, I did perform as a pianist. I was a classical pianist. I was also a ballet dancer. So those things required performance, which actually would make me really, really nervous, I think because in piano you’re playing a classical piece. You’re playing Beethoven, you’re playing Mozart. So if you make a mistake, everybody’s gonna know. Also with ballet you’re choreographed and you’re in as a troupe. If you’re doing choreography with a bunch of other people- If you make a mistake, everybody’s gonna know. But with comedy, mistakes are a little bit more of, something you can gloss over a bit. There’s a little more control there, a little more room for chaos, which I absolutely need, I think, as a performer.   [00:04:22] Miko Lee: Mm, this is interesting. You’ve already described some of the different types of performance that you do, and you’ve also done so many things in your life. But I’m wondering if there is a type of art form that still makes you nervous.    [00:04:34] Margaret Cho: Music. I think playing an instrument in front of people, I think because when I was a child and would perform these recitals, I would be so nervous. There were a couple of times in recitals where I had to start over, you know? When you’re, like, eight or nine years old and you make a mistake and have to start over, and this audience is, like, hundreds of people, it’s, like, really mortifying. I still carry that. I play m- numerous instruments, and I really dread playing them in public. What helped me a little bit is busking, which I did quite a lot of over, over the years because when you’re playing out on the street, there’s a… I don’t know. It’s like people are not really paying attention to you, and therefore you’re kind of in this divide of I’m in performance, but I’m also kind of not. So that helped. In general, I refrain nowadays from when I do music, I don’t usually play my instrument along with the band. I usually just focus on singing. Even that is quite nerve-wracking. Singing and doing music still, even though I’ve been doing it really my whole life, there is something about it that, that quite, um… because when you’re singing, you’re actually also the instrument. So there’s a bit of more required. That’s why I always prefer comedy. Your quality of voice doesn’t matter because the music you’re making doesn’t have to sound pleasing.    [00:05:59] Miko Lee: And when you were busking, what instrument were you playing?   [00:06:02] Margaret Cho: Guitar. Ah. So I would play guitar, sometimes a six-string banjo, sometime, I’d play all manner of sort of guitar-necked instruments, which can go from, guitar to mandolin to a cello that’s, it has a guitar neck, so I can play- Ah that as well. So all those things, I cheat at everything ’cause I have a guitar neck.    [00:06:21] Miko Lee: I love that. The improv just comes out of you in all different ways, I guess.    [00:06:27] Margaret Cho: Yeah.   [00:06:27] Miko Lee: So you have been a path maker, rule breaker in so many aspects of your life, from comedy obviously, and producing and starring in the first Asian American TV show, actor, fashion maven, author, rapper, podcast host, and out and proud queer role model. I’m wondering, what’s a career dream that you aspire to?    [00:06:46] Margaret Cho: Ooh, well, I wanna be an old lady crime show, like Murder She Wrote. I wanna just solve crimes. I love, like, a British crime show, like an old lady solving crime. Like a Prime Suspect, like a Helen Mirren. I love that kind of genre of television, and so I would love to mature in that ’cause, like, it’s so interesting and also so rich and, I feel really drawn to it. So that’s something that I haven’t… I’m a participant in a lot of those types of shows. I’m on a show called Bull Trent, which is very much that, which is really cool. And then I’ve been on Law & Order, which is the ultimate, SVU is the ultimate sort of crime show. So I would love to engage in that genre more.   [00:07:31] Miko Lee: Ooh, are you developing that on your own?    [00:07:34] Margaret Cho: I’m not, but I am participating in lots of other people’s versions of it. They’re not out yet, so they will be coming, forthcoming.    [00:07:44] Miko Lee: Coming soon, and then your own version starring you. Yes. The- Yeah … modern Murder She Wrote. I would love it. In what town would this be? In San Francisco or in-    [00:07:53] Margaret Cho: Oh, San Francisco would be great. Yeah. San Francisco or, like, Marin.    [00:07:56] Miko Lee: Oh, God. That would be really funny.    [00:07:58] Margaret Cho: Sausalito. Sausalito would be so fun. You know, Napa Valley. You know, something, like, very, like, th- this community that looks very, like Saint Helena, like Calistoga, s- community that’s very quaint and peaceful and, like, kind of like foodie oriented and, like, very, you, you know, you think very upscale, but actually there’s a lot of dirty dealings going on underneath the surface.   [00:08:20] Miko Lee: The wine country Murder She Wrote.    [00:08:23] Margaret Cho: Yes, I love it.    [00:08:24] Miko Lee: I would watch that. That’s fun. So you also have expressed your art in so many ways. Your body is filled with so many tattoos. I think you have over 70. Which of your tattoos evokes the strongest emotion for you?    [00:08:38] Margaret Cho: Well, right now I’m in this, like, trend only getting art from Korean artists, and these are guys. People from Korea who are tattooing now are really the best in the world. They are the state of the art. Like, their eye and their talent is just so innovative. There it’s semi-illegal, so they do it under duress, you know, and they have to sort of do all these different things to do it. But their ability to just visualize things that are just, that seemed impossible, you know, these miracles on skin that they can do. The art now I’m really resonating with. There’s an artist now that works exclusively in Dancheong, which is a kind of the color scheme of Korean temple art. And so all of his tattooing reflects that. And so I’m working on a very, very large piece on my leg that is, all Dancheong, which you know, for me, like having had lots of different kinds of tattoo, like I had sort of Japanese traditional and a lot of American traditional, and a lot of just kind of different kinds of art. Now to just really delve into the art of my ancestors is quite powerful, and by being done by very young, very skilled tattoo artists from Korea. You know, so I get to speak in Korean to them. We communicate in a language that is shared, that’s ours, which is very different from the way that I’ve communicated with all of the other artists that I’ve had over my time as a tattooed person. So, um, yeah, tattooing for me, it’s, it’s all about Korea right now.    [00:10:21] Miko Lee: And what inspired your first tattoo?    [00:10:25] Margaret Cho: My first tattoo was done by Don Ed Hardy, who is a legendary Bay Area tattooer, also, an amazing guy and he was a friend of the employees of my father, who, my father owned Paperback Traffic, which is his gay bookstore just going in the 1970s. And so a lot of people were getting tattooed by Don Ed Hardy. They were getting full body suits in the ’70s and ’80s, and the, the, um, images, like, so on our refrigerator as a… When I was a child, my father would put up, um, the full body tattoos of these guys that worked for him. So that’s what I would see every day. Instead of, like, our graded papers or, like, stuff that you usually have on a refrigerator, it was photographs of completely tattooed people. Um, and that really stayed with me. And so when I was ready to be tattooed, and this is, like, 2002, um, my father’s employees and all of our, like, old friends took me down to see Don Ed Hardy, who was doing these body suits, and, he gave me my very, very first very large Japanese-inspired piece on my stomach and back. And that kind of started it off. I got the most painful, most difficult place in your body tattooed first, which is, like, basically your stomach, and your sternum, your chest. All those areas are really, like, those are the worst, and I got that over with. And so I realized, oh, I could actually keep on doing this. And I always knew that I would be heavily tattooed because of that.   [00:11:59] Miko Lee: So your first one you chose really big, not just like a small something. You got a really big one.    [00:12:03] Margaret Cho: Yeah.    [00:12:04] Miko Lee: Wow. Yeah. Just jump in, girl. Just jump in.    [00:12:07] Margaret Cho: Well, I just knew that was right, and I knew also this was probably, like, the only time that I would be able to get a very large piece from Don Ed Hardy, you know? Yeah. People know him, of course, from the clothing line- That’s right … and the sort of Y2K influence. But he is so much more than that. His influence on tattooing is really significant. That was towards the end of his tattooing career. He didn’t have many years where he kept doing it after, ’cause he explained to me that he absorbs the pain of people. Wow. And so he realized, like, that probably wasn’t so good for him physically as he aged, I was really lucky to get what I got from him, which is a very, very large piece and a very important piece.   [00:12:51] Miko Lee: Amazing. And as you’re talking about your childhood and growing up in the bookstore, it just makes me reflect on how your childhood was so unique and so interesting. Mm-hmm. And I’m wondering if today you were to make a television show about your childhood, how very different… With, with more artistic freedom. It would be so fun. It would be so fascinating. There’s so many more streaming options than just the three networks that we grew up with. Yeah. So, what would that be like for you to do a TV show on your childhood now?    [00:13:23] Margaret Cho: I would love it. I mean, I would love to create that world, recreate that world, because, you know, we had the influence of, like, people who were doing a lot of very early body modification, meaning these full, full body tattoos, and, like, body piercing, which was such a different thing. I mean, in the 1970s we had the rise of Harvey Milk you know, and his assassination.    [00:13:44] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:13:44] Margaret Cho: We also had the devastation of the People’s Temple, which was all San Francisco people.    [00:13:50] Miko Lee: Yep, yep.    [00:13:51] Margaret Cho: It happened in Guyana, people don’t realize this originated in San Francisco and came from there. All the people who died were San Franciscans, and Oakland, Bay Area people. This is our people. My parents actually rented the recently vacated People’s Temple for my grandparents’ 50th wedding anniversary. Wow. Like, crossing the police tape. To go in and have a Korean party, and then my mother’s, “Lot of ghosts.” She saw all the ghosts.   [00:14:19] Miko Lee: Yeah, I’m sure.   [00:14:21] Margaret Cho: “Ghosts, ghosts, lot of ghosts. Well, ghosts don’t really do anything. They just make food get cold very fast.” You know, like that kind of a thing. So it would be a great TV show, I think.    [00:14:32] Miko Lee: Ugh, I would watch that too. We’re talking about your new show, Choligarchy, which is gonna be at Berkeley Rep, and I read that you said it brings you back to your roots as a political comedian. Can you share more about this?    [00:14:44] Margaret Cho: Well, I had the luxury of the Obama administration where I didn’t feel like I had to fight so hard to be heard and seen as a queer Asian American woman, ’cause I worked on the Obama campaign, I worked on, getting people registered to vote in 2008 in Philadelphia. I worked on all these different things with Cal Penn in 2008 to assure a kind of future where we are gonna have something different, and then we did. And then so I got to spend about eight years where I could do dance, I could do music, I could kinda like drift into these other arenas of work that I hadn’t been able to do because, before, had been, like, so much about fighting the Bush administration, so much about fighting what was going on. So now to be able to return to a thing that I’m very used to, like political commentary, where I’m really focused on using my voice to affect change and to create change, and it’s really profound, you know? I love doing this show. It’s got me thousands and thousands of death threats, which is also really terrifying and bizarre. I’ve always had a kind of very confrontational relationship with conservatives, but now it’s escalated to the point of, like, oh, I actually do fear for my safety. But I think that it’s worth it. The message is worth it, and I’m proud to do this show, and I’m very, very excited to bring it to very progressive Berkeley, which they’re gonna hear it better than anyone. I do think Berkeley is even more progressive than San Francisco. So it’s exciting.    [00:16:27] Miko Lee: Well, San Francisco is filled with tech bros now, so it’s a very- Yeah … different vibe than when we were-   [00:16:32] Margaret Cho: That’s right.   [00:16:32] Miko Lee: growing up. I’m wondering, I heard you say about how different it was during the Bush regime, which is actually relatively tame in retrospect compared to the fascistic times we’re living in now. I’m wondering how different, now that you’re going back to the kind of political roots, how different is it from that Bush time in your approach to your comedy?    [00:16:51] Margaret Cho: Well, Bush never descended into a cult. Bush never had the sort of magnetism as a person, to demand the cult-like sort of atmosphere that sort of exists now, where we have a leader who will gladly let all of his followers be on a decoy plane while he rushes away in a catering van. We think the decoy plane, that’s really America. Like, the decoy– we are all, as a nation, on the decoy plane. He’s happily content to let us all die to ensure his safety. It’s like they’re, and they’re still gonna follow him after that. So that’s a cult, you know? This is a different beast than we’re dealing with just sort of patriotism or the idea of like xenophobia or the idea of wanting this kind of America that Bush wanted. Bush couldn’t create that because he was not a cult leader, whereas now we have a bona fide cult and cult leader on a path to destruction.    [00:17:57] Miko Lee: So given this time that we’re living in and how complicated it is, I’m wondering, especially as you’re going on tour with this show, what brings you comfort and makes you feel connected to home when you’re on tour or when you’re away?   [00:18:10] Margaret Cho: Well, my dog is with me all the time, so that’s really special. She’ll be there at Berkeley. She’s really, really amazing. I’m a big fan of social media. It’s connecting with people on there, and people are encouraging me through there. There’s a lot of points where I carry home with me. I’m also, at home on the road, because I’ve been traveling and performing for over 40 years, so it’s a place that I feel a great deal of comfort in.    [00:18:35] Miko Lee: Because you mentioned social media, I’m just wondering, isn’t that where the death threats are coming from, though, is social media? Or are you getting them in—   [00:18:42] Margaret Cho: Yes. But I’m also get, I get them on my phone. I get them, like they—   [00:18:45] Miko Lee: Oh, you, they- Yeah … find your cellphone and contact you—   [00:18:47] Margaret Cho: Yeah.   [00:18:48] Miko Lee: directly? Wow.    [00:18:49] Margaret Cho: Yeah, I get them, like, you know… I’m also concerned about, I’ve been doxxed, you know, they threatened to kill my dog, and I’m like, “She’s white. She’s one of you. Why would you kill her?” It’s kind of funny.   [00:19:01] Miko Lee: But you don’t respond to any of these folks, right?    [00:19:04] Margaret Cho: No, you can’t, because you just don’t know what… I always think about, like, Melissa Hortman. They killed her dog. I don’t wanna be another example of, like, MAGA lunacy. When you speak out and you are a symbol of what they don’t want. They don’t want women, they don’t want people of color talking. When you are that you’re really in the line of fire. That’s why traveling works for me, I get to be very, very stealth and hidden. Um, and that’s kinda also why I travel so much, is to be stealth. Mm. I get so much encouragement from social media. I don’t wanna cut myself off from it. But yeah, you have to be careful.    [00:19:42] Miko Lee: So you feel like that balance outweighs it?    [00:19:45] Margaret Cho: Yeah, for sure.   [00:19:45] Miko Lee: And I’m wondering if you think there’s something that’s misunderstood about you?    [00:19:49] Margaret Cho: When I’m talking and people don’t like what I’m saying, they will say, “Oh, look at this has-been talking again.” And I’m like, “I’m not talking because I think I’m a celebrity. I’m talking because I am alive, and everybody who is alive has the right to speak.” I think this is really important. I don’t talk because I feel like I have a responsibility to talk because I represent anything. No, I talk because we should all be talking. We should all have a voice. I don’t have a sense of importance about myself or who I am or what I do. I think that everybody should be talking, and now we should all be talking because now we are all on that decoy plane, and he will leave us to die. So I’m going to say something about it. People have a myth about celebrity that somehow it involves our ego, and that’s why we feel compelled to have a voice. But I think we should all have a voice no matter who we are.    [00:20:41] Miko Lee: I’ve heard you call yourself the patron saint of outsiders. Can you talk about what that means to you?    [00:20:47] Margaret Cho: I think for me it means to be able to have, my queerness front loaded, my Asianness front loaded, my gender front loaded, all these things that I want to be able to talk to those who feel like they don’t feel represented by mainstream culture, by white supremacy. If you have felt rejected or even just not included by society at large, I wanna hear your voice. I wanna hear your opinion, and I wanna know you.    [00:21:15] Miko Lee: And last question, why should folks go and see Oligarchy at Berkeley Rep?    [00:21:20] Margaret Cho: Oh, it’s Choligarchy.   [00:21:20] Miko Lee: Choligarchy.   [00:21:22] Margaret Cho: It’s my nation. It’s my dictatorship. In my dictatorship, we have universal healthcare. In my dictatorship, we have a universal living wage. If we actually made the billionaires pay their share, if we actually stopped supporting Israel and Argentina, other countries which I don’t know why we give them so much money, but we do, if we stop doing that, we stop supporting the billionaires, if we stop giving corporations handouts, we could actually have a universal living wage where everybody in this nation would just be able to just live. We could just live because we are American. We could just live. And then your work could be what you really wanna do. That would be such an important change to the way that we exist as Americans. And we could do that if we actually stopped giving b- bailouts to corporations, actually made billionaires pay their share, and stopped giving money to countries that are not ours. That’s what my platform is. That’s what I run on, and that’s what I plan to do.    [00:22:35] Miko Lee: And folk can find out more by going to see the show at Berkeley Rep, and we’ll put a link in our show notes. Thank you so much, Margaret Cho, for joining us on Apex Express.    [00:22:45] Margaret Cho: Thank you.    [00:22:46] Miko Lee: Next up, get a preview of an upcoming unique performance at Oakland Asian Culture Center. Listen to Sawaal Jawaab    MUSIC   [00:24:01] Miko Lee: That was Sawal Jawab with Arjun Verma, Eman Hashimi, and Pezhham Akhavass in Interweaving: Indo-Persian Exchanges, a one-night-only performance on Friday, September 11th at the Oakland Asian Culture Center. The concert’s a rare opportunity for Bay Area audiences to experience the interplay of some of Asia’s richest classical music traditions from India, Iran, and Afghanistan. Next up, we hear from two voices, multimedia artist Masaki Fujihata and Carin Adams, senior curator at the Oakland Museum. Masaki Fujihata is a world-renowned sound, installation, interactive, and new media artist. He’s also a professor at Keio University. His work has been shown all around the world, and now it’s coming to the Oakland Museum, opening September 18th and running through the end of December. The piece is called BeHere / 1942, A New Lens on the Japanese American Incarceration, and it’s a new augmented reality work. So tune in to my interview with Masaki and Carin Welcome to Apex Express, multimedia artist Masaki Fujihata and Carin Adams, senior curator at Oakland Museum.    [00:25:13] I’m so happy to have you both with me, and we’re talking about the new exhibit BeHere / 1942: A New Lens on the Japanese American Incarceration, which opens at the Oakland Museum from Friday, September 18th to Sunday, December 27th. So thank you so much for joining me. I wanna start with a question I ask all of my guests. I’m gonna start first with you, Carin, and then I’ll go to Masaki, and the question is, who are your people, and what legacy do you carry with you?    [00:25:53] Carin Adams: Oh, wow. I think there are lots of different facets of my family and who I think of as my people. Um, I think in, in this work in particular, I’m really, um, thinking a lot about my grandparents, my, my mother’s parents, and, um, my mom, who’s turning 91 in, um, October, and, um, her and her siblings’ experience, um, being incarcerated in Tule Lake. So- Mm … that, I think has, has a lot to do with wh- why I’m here, and thank you so much for having me.    [00:26:36] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. Thank you so much. And Masaki, what about you? Who are your people, and what legacy do you carry with you?    [00:26:43] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, in my case, my, career started with the computer graphics long time ago in the ’80s, so I came in, uh, Bay Area and, uh, West Coast quite frequently to join a big, uh, conference and so on. But then in ’90s, I was very many times to be invited to be in Europe, so-called media art, i- is so dominant. So my curiosity is about the visual arts plus computer technology. Then nearly 10 years ago, I started to play with augmented reality. I recognized AR is a very good technology to put the history in actual moment. So the title Be Here 1942 means, I try to call the people in the past in the present. After one of my friend, the professor at UCLA invite me to be in Los Angeles, then we started to focus onto the Japanese Americans’ history. That was the first, a kind of coincidence, but it was, very interesting to me because, I was born in Tokyo and grew up here in Tokyo, so usually I didn’t think about who is a Japanese. [00:28:10] Along with this production, I studied a lot, not only the racial problems, but also the identity, , not only the personal identity, but also identity of Japanese and also American. It’s really difficult to understand what’s is the identity in the America because so many different people are living together and of course there are several conflicts. This is very good study for me, through the new media technology and, through the meeting with the people. Some of them really had, severe experience inside the camp. I never had a chance to think about these opportunities. Then I really want to recreate what had happened in the 1942. That was my point of view for this project.    [00:29:08] Miko Lee: I’m wondering when you were growing up in Japan, did you learn about the Japanese American incarceration?    [00:29:15] Masaki Fujihata: Maybe, maybe, but a tiny. Most of the young students just thought, oh, this is the history, not mine    [00:29:27] Miko Lee: And did you… Were there kibei that were there? Cause I know there were a lot of Japanese Americans that had been pushed out and repatriated to Japan. Did you grow up knowing any of those people?    [00:29:39] Masaki Fujihata: Mm, not, not really. Not really. Um, how can I say? Mm, maybe this is the education, the Japanese education. They didn’t talk much about the history. The first part is an ancient moment, is very, very, you know, impressive. But, at the end of the term, so the modern age usually passing very, very fast.    [00:30:10] Miko Lee: Oh, interesting.    [00:30:11] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, so n- not only about, history between America and Japan, but also China and Japan.   [00:30:18] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:30:19] Masaki Fujihata: We have very few knowledge in, on the context of, uh, history education. I mean—   [00:30:24] Miko Lee: So sort of World War II- I mean- and forward? From World War II—   [00:30:27] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, yeah …   [00:30:28] Miko Lee: You didn’t really learn about it?   [00:30:28] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, modern age. Modern age. I believe this is very big problem in the education.    [00:30:35] Miko Lee: That’s so interesting. So the first that you really learned about the Japanese American incarceration was during, when you started this project at UCLA? Is that right?    [00:30:44] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, yeah. I know something about the history in the US, but when I started to do research, there are many details, and every people’s history is very, very different. So the textbook of the history is just the surface- So that’s why I wanted to show more the detail through a new media technology.    [00:31:16] Miko Lee: I read a quote from you that said, “My aim was to peer deeply into photographs to derive from them more than was visible on the surface.” Can you talk a little bit more about what that means to you?   [00:31:29] Masaki Fujihata: Yes, because, I started to think about to focus on the moment when they ride the bus. So then, of course, I did some research to read some oral history, but, most of them didn’t tell about the moment because I think this was just one hour or two hours for waiting. I suppose they usually don’t want to remember, and also they thought that this is not important day, then they forgot.   [00:32:04] Miko Lee: What was it about the bus that you were curious about?    [00:32:08] Masaki Fujihata: We planned to realize our project, to think about the beginning. What is the beginning? There, there are quite many novels and writings about the life in the camp because of, of course, this is so heavy. Four years in the camp is unbelievable. According to my research, some people said they thought the war will ends in three months. But in there they spend in the camp, over four years. So of course, this is a heavy story and also while in the inside the camp. There are some conflict between the first generation, second generation or American side or Japanese side. The beginning is, of course, the Pearl Harbor raid, but, the bus, suddenly one day the bus came into your town and you were asked to ride the bus, and before riding they didn’t tell them where they are going. So so if it happened now, how can we behave? So this is my question. This is the beginning, and they didn’t know what will happen in the future. And then in parallel, I did some research to see the photographs because, there are many documentary photographs were in the archive, in National Archive, and also Library Congress. I tried to, see the photography, but as I said, when see the picture, you know, the detail is telling a different story, against the comment. The comment is just they are lining up for riding a bus or something, or Japanese American families get together and waiting. Of course they have some name card. At last I found through one of small girl’s eye, there is a reflection of the photographer. But, not only the photographer, there are two, three, or four more people standing with the cameraman. Then, of course I understand they are all Caucasians. They are not Japanese American people. So for the little lady, for the little girl, when she was surrounded by, white officer, perhaps military police, she has nothing to do. But on the surface of the photography, she’s smiling. So this contrast is the beginning. So this is a problem about media, visual media. So then I really want to share this experience with the other audiences through the exhibition. That was my intention.   [00:35:18] Miko Lee: And had you seen the photographs from Dorothea Lange and Russell Lee prior to working on this project?   [00:35:25] Masaki Fujihata: Of course, I know these names because they are very famous,, documentary photographer, the magazine Life started to publish from the year 1933, it was hit, so popular. I was really surprised because they did the job to make a document for Japanese Americans, and there is over 4,000 pictures left in the archive. I saw all of these so many times, so I can tell each picture. I can tell what is the difference, between the Dorothea and Russell Lee. So each photographer has, different characteristics. But I really surprised because, Dorothea Lange’s photography is very different from others. And—   [00:36:18] Miko Lee: And the government didn’t like them. They locked them away for years because they were too real.    [00:36:25] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, and because, Dorothea’s photography is always associated with the object inside the photography. She tried to understand who is she, who, who is—-    [00:36:38] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm …    [00:36:39] Masaki Fujihata: and try to have a good relationship with the object. Most of the photographer, like a press cameraman, it’s just go there, “Hey, smile,” and shot is their, you know, way of business. But Dorothea’s way is very different, so sometimes, I can tell she is always calculating the distance from her to the object. I enjoyed very much to have a chance to see all of these details. Of course, another luckiness because all of these photograph were shot by the government, then all of these are now public domain. Even me from Tokyo, I can see so many photographs with high resolution. I think those are made after year 2000 because of the technology came in. Then now they are supplying 3,000 by 4,000 pixels. That’s why I could enlarge and to see the reflection on the girl’s eye. It’s a coincidence, but also it’s the evolution of computer technology from analog photography. So this is also interesting part to share with the audience.   [00:38:01] Miko Lee: Thank you. Carin, I wonder if you could talk about what an audience will see when they come in to see the exhibit.    [00:38:08] Carin Adams: The exhibition is going to happen inside and outside the gallery. So if people are visiting the museum coming up through our entrance on Oak Street, they will have an opportunity to enter the augmented reality application that Masaki has designed where they’re, standing there grounded in, the architecture of the Oakland Museum. But they’re also seeing people, dressed as if they were in 1942, waiting with their belongings and their family members. They’ll be able to see the buses that lined up on Oak Street in ’42. There was a civil control station that was across the street, and Dorothea Lange took some very famous photographs of people waiting with their belongings in front of their houses that, on the museum side of the street. Masaki has adapted the augmented reality that he first developed for Los Angeles for Oakland. So people on entrance onto our campus will have that experience, and then if they come into the gallery, then they’ll really be entering into the gaze of these eyes. They’ll be surrounded by very high resolution images that Masaki has blown up, to mural size. You’re forced to encounter the people that were reflected in the eyes of the subjects that Lange photographed.    [00:39:45] Miko Lee: Thank you, and I know that in the collection, you’ve had these Dorothea photos for a long time, right, in the Oakland Museum’s—   [00:39:53] Carin Adams: Yeah. The Oakland Museum is the holder of the Dorothea Lange archive, including some of her images of the incarceration. The Bancroft Library also has extensive holdings of her work and material , related to this history. And of course, Masaki did lots of research in the National Archive and Library of Congress.   [00:40:16] Miko Lee: Masaki, I know this is the second version of the show since you have opened it first at JAMM and at UC, with UCLA. Yeah. What was it like for you to recreate it for the Oakland Museum? How has that experience been?   [00:40:30] Masaki Fujihata: I’m very, very lucky to find OMCA. Mm-hmm. We started to think about the production in OMCA. I made a research through, of course Dorothy Lang’s photography. Then there is a number of the street, 1117 Oak Street is the place where people apply their address and family name. The Civil Control Station is that address. I was very surprised because this is a street in front of the museum, and actually the other side of the street was the Civil Control Station where the bus came in. So this is exact place I really wanted to put my augmented reality models. So I was very shocked because I never think about the museum is a real place.   [00:41:24] Miko Lee: So it’s truly a place-based piece of art because that is the history coming alive in that very spot.    [00:41:31] Masaki Fujihata: Yes. Yeah. So, all the projects start from the realization of augmented reality.    [00:41:39] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:41:40] Masaki Fujihata: So augmented reality is a kind of tech term, but augmentation is adding some information rather than the first wa- surface or rather than the display. In this case, we are putting the happenings in the 1942 in present, and then try to make a contrast between now and the past. The exhibition inside the gallery is showing a kind of process of the research to make this augmented reality piece because for making the 3D model data, we invite many volunteers into a special studio. I have to direct them. I have to prepare some scenario for them. In some cases, you are the university students. Coincidentally, you met the professor, while waiting for the bus. This is a fiction I made. When I need to make a scenario, I really need a research what is possible, what is not possible. So then the photography help me a lot to make a small scenario.    [00:43:01] Miko Lee: How many volunteers worked with you on this?    [00:43:04] Masaki Fujihata: I think totally 64 volunteers.    [00:43:08] Miko Lee: Wow. That is amazing.    [00:43:10] Masaki Fujihata: Each one was asked to walking towards the point where the bus would come, and then the second part is waiting, and then the third part is just lining up for the bus. So there is three different scenario. Then each person appears three times. Then totally you will see nearly 200 people.    [00:43:37] Miko Lee: Wow. And I understand that you use, in order to utilize the AR, you use cameras that kind of replicate those used during the incarceration, and I’m wondering what made you decide to choose that?   [00:43:53] Masaki Fujihata: So I try to know the core idea of each technology, because the technology is usually used for capitalism. My manifest is liberate technology from capitalism. So technology has another dimension, not only for serving for the capitalism to make money for your life more rational, but the technology also can give you a chance, who are you? What is life? What is the world? So I really want to use the technology another dimension of the technology usually used by the companies, and capitalism. In this case, this project is really good because very nice photography was left in the archive. But imagine in the 1942, photography was a high technology. Very few technicians or rich people could have the camera. Now so popular everybody has a camera inside their mobile phone, but it was high tech. And now augmented reality is somehow popular technology, but no one didn’t use the AR technology to think about what we are doing as an art. So I wanted to use augmented reality to, to think about what is our life    [00:45:32] Miko Lee: Ooh, that is so interesting. I really appreciate that. And I’m wondering because you’ve seen audiences go through the first exhibit, I’m wondering if anything surprised you by audiences that have seen it and what, what you’d like people to walk away with after going to your installation.    [00:45:51] Masaki Fujihata: I was really surprised because this was my first case the audience had a tear. So after they saw the augmented reality, some of the person said, “Masaki,” I suppose, she suppose that, “Perhaps my grandfather was here.” Could feel the same impression or imagine, she could imagine what had happened on her grandfather So it’s a bit like a cinema, but there is no written story, so each person can explore the images through a tablet. But, uh, maybe five minutes later, uh, the user will feel inside the scene. So In another words, I can say you are going to feel you are inside a cinema studio. You will be captured by the camera. And also another, okay, another interesting aspect because, I could develop this project because the photographs were left made by Dorothy and other people, uh, professional documentary photographer made these photography. So photography was left. And then, um, while you are using iPad in the entrance plaza of, Oakland Museum, you will see many Japanese people wearing the costume and, waiting for the bus. But now you are the cameraman. You believe you are seeing what had happened through the display, but, imagine for them inside the image were looked by you. So this is the viewer you are going to see, but also from them, from the object, you are the cameraman.   [00:48:04] Miko Lee: So you want people to feel both sides, both being the watcher but also in it—   [00:48:09] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah.   [00:48:10] Miko Lee: Immersed in the experience.    [00:48:11] Masaki Fujihata: Yeah, hunter.    [00:48:13] Miko Lee: Mm.    [00:48:13] Masaki Fujihata: Image hunter, yeah.    [00:48:15] Miko Lee: Image hunter, mm. I, I feel like you’re saying utilizing technology as a tool for your emotions as opposed to a capitalistic gain. I’m wondering if you’re working with AI at all, and your thoughts about it. Because you’ve really been on the forefront of so much multimedia since the ’80s and I’m just wondering now people are just talking about AI and the impact of artists  and I wonder what your thoughts are about that.   [00:48:39] Masaki Fujihata: I, I think, uh, it’s too early to, uh, work with AI as an artist because, uh, e- even the developer of, uh, AI didn’t know what happened inside, so it’s a black- totally black box. So that’s interesting part of AI. Uh, maybe you know some, some story about this. Very recently, uh, the AI ju- just hack the connection, then they escape from the inside the laboratory to go outside the internet. So this could happen. Uh, that’s why, because a human couldn’t imagine. So the AI doing something different, and it’s really a black box. Then, uh, that’s interesting point. If I can be inside the development company as an artist, I can make something interesting hacking software, but it’s a huge business, and, uh, I think this is not the moment for the artist. And also, as you know, all the data inside the AI is, uh, happenings in the past.    [00:50:02] Miko Lee: Right.    [00:50:04] Masaki Fujihata: And then, right, the present is important for the humans. What is the role of the artist? There is some, uh, sentence, artist is the person who is creating something new which has not exist before. so, uh, we are not AI, so w-we have to know who, what we should do in contrast to AI is the important moment    [00:50:37] Miko Lee: Thank you so much. I wonder if you would want to just reflect briefly on how this, this piece that you’re presenting at Oakland Museum is very resonant right now in America because of the current politics of incarceration of peoples and you know, we’re at the same, at the exact same concentration camps where Japanese Americans were held. Immigrants are being detained and put there right now. I’m wondering how this piece speaks to the moment that we’re living in in the United States right now.   [00:51:13] Masaki Fujihata: Um, please do not make more mistakes that American government did before in 1942. So Our project can be a kind of reference what the American government did after the Pearl Harbor.    [00:51:39] Carin Adams: Masaki, would you wanna talk a little bit about the new piece that you’re making?    [00:51:45] Masaki Fujihata: Oh, I see, I see. I think- That’s a good idea. I, I totally forgot. Yeah. Thank you, Carin. Because I proposed to Carin and museum about to make a new piece. The idea is about, uh, the poster. The, that they… So the, in Okura case, maybe, uh, to l- late April in 1942, the poster paste on anywhere, everywhere inside the town, and talking about the, at the certain day, you cannot be stay here. You will be criminal. So, so this is the s- starting point. Then they need to come to the civil control station to sign up, and then one week later, the bus came in, then they need to go to the camp. Then the poster is now very famous, but, uh, usually, people didn’t read it Then I, I asked to, collect volunteers to ask read this text on the poster, uh, several different locations inside the Oakland. So when you see the final result, the view of the people reading the text aloud is very peaceful, very bright, California sunshine and there is a lake behind and sometimes, you know, the buses came and stop and go there. So this is very peaceful, but the content is very strong- strongly contrast- co- contrasted. So it’s a command from the government. I really wanted to, to make this contrast through this new production. So you, you will see three vertical monitors, and, 25 different group of people. I think there was nearly 45 people helped me to realize this   [00:54:02] Miko Lee: What is it you hope to evoke by adding this new piece of the relocation poster?   [00:54:08] Masaki Fujihata: I really wanted to involve some of the young generation and family and also, known Japanese American people. So all of these people, of course, have some fear against the, this moment, and then try to, uh, send messages. So they helped me to realize this.   [00:54:39] Carin Adams: The video is really going to provide the soundtrack for the exhibition. There is no sound in any of the other film elements or in the AR other than what visitors bring in conversation into the space. But they’ll be able to hear the local volunteers that Masaki assembled reading the exclusion order text and we’re expecting that to be very profound- impactful. And yes, some of the people who volunteered for this new video element were incarcerated themselves, others are descendants, and then there are just people who are representing different immigrant experiences who wanted to participate. So it’s a very local production, and it really cites us in the present moment with this really chilling text from the past.    [00:55:33] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for joining me and chatting with me about the exhibit BeHere / 1942. I’m really excited to check it out, and I hope our audience gets a chance to go and see it all the way through the end of December at Oakland Museum.   [00:55:48] Carin Adams: Thank you so much for having us.    [00:55:50] Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night.   The post APEX Express – 9.3.26 – Beneath the Surface with Margaret Cho & Masaki Fujihata appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 8.27.26. Dr. Robynn’s Spitting Fire on Colorism 27.08.2026 59мин

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Join Host Miko Lee as she introduces Dr. Robynn Rodriquez’s show “Spitting Fire.” Dr. Robynn speaks about Filipinx and colorism with Dr. Joanne Rondilla.   LINKS Dr. Robynn, The People’s Professor   SHOW TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.   [00:00:35] Miko Lee: Welcome to Apex Express. I’m your host, Miko Lee, and tonight we get to hear the podcast from Dr. Robin Rodriguez called Spitting Fire, and I’m so excited for you to listen to it. Check it out, and if you wanna hear more, we’re gonna link in the show notes an earlier interview I did with Dr. Robin Rodriguez. So please listen to Spitting Fire with Dr. Robin   [00:01:01] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: I can’t actually remember a specific episode when my parents or my Lola, who helped raise me, explicitly said, “Don’t stay out in the sun.” But I always knew growing up that staying out in the sun was something I shouldn’t do because being dark was something to be avoided. I remember being embarrassed by my mom who would bust out an umbrella on a bright and shiny day. “Mom, it’s not even raining outside,” I remember complaining. I hated the big hats she would wear or insist I wear, or the comments of, “You’re getting darker,” also in a disapproving tone. I remember, too, the high praises anyone with lighter skin was heaped, even when I didn’t think they were that particularly attractive. Or how if my relatives knew someone was going to be marrying an American, basically a white person, they would exclaim, “Oh, they’re going to have beautiful children.” When I brought home a hapa, a dude who was Filipino and white, I was told that if we got married, I would be improving the race. I’ve always known, whether I can remember being told, “Don’t stay out in the sun,” that if there was a skin hue to aspire to, it was to be light.   [00:02:49] To be called mestiza was to receive one of the best compliments. To be a mestiza is always already to be beautiful. Of course, if anyone said I was mestiza, it was always qualified as mestizang morena. That is, someone who exhibits certain types of physical traits that are associated with a mestiza, like having a more pointed nose or being slightly taller than the average Pinay, but not the lighter skin of a genuine mestiza. So that’s why I was sometimes called mestizang morena. Still meant as a compliment. After all, I could still enjoy the privilege of being associated with mestizaje, but only partially So many Filipinas in the diaspora, especially those of us who live in white settler colonial societies like what we now know as the United States as well as Canada, so many of us share experiences similar to the ones I’ve experienced.   [00:03:58] My dear friend and colleague, a fellow sociologist, Dr. Connolly De Leon, who currently teaches at Ryerson University in Canada, made this shared experience a topic of study in her book chapter, “Mas Maputi Ako Sa’yo,” I’m Lighter Than You: The Spatial Politics of Intraracial Colorism Among Filipina-Filipino Youth in the Greater Toronto Area. It was a chapter that was part of the very historic anthology, Filipinos in Canada: Disturbing Invisibility, edited by Roland Coloma, Bonnie McElvaney, Ellen Ethel Dongohan, John Paul Katungol, and Lisa M. Davidson, and it was published in 2012. Now, I’ve taught, uh, Dr. De Leon’s chapter, Connolly’s chapter, in my Filipino American experience courses in the past, and it’s always, always deeply resonated with my Filipina students. In Dr. De Leon’s chapter, she starts off with a quote that so many of us are familiar with in some way. She writes, quote, “You’re so dark. Yuck.’ My cousin would say to me in disgust as she would place her forearm beside mine to compare her light skin to my dark skin.” End quote. Dr. De Leon continues, quote, “As early as the age of four, as early as the age of four, I was taught to feel ashamed of my complexion. I did not understand what was so shameful about being the particular shade of brown that I was.” End quote. The shaming that Dr. De Leon and so many of us experience comes from colorism, which scholars define as the discriminatory treatment of individuals falling within the same racial group on the basis of skin color.   [00:06:01] On this episode of Spitting Fire, Dr.- Doctora Robyn Speaks, you’ll actually hear less from me and more from yet another friend and colleague, Dr. Joanne Rondilia, who I recently hosted as part of a lecture series jointly sponsored by the Bolosan Center for Filipinx Studies, of which I serve as the founding faculty director, and the School for Liberating Education, my platform for offering Filipinx or Filipinos and ethnic studies courses that are often only available to those who happen to be able to get accepted into the four-year, often elite institutions where they are taught. It’s where I get to teach all of these amazing courses that I think all of us should have to the broader community. Dr. Rondilia has researched on colorism in the Philippines and the diaspora for over a decade. It was a topic of her 2012 dissertation, which was entitled Colonial Faces: Beauty and Skin Color Hierarchy in the Philippines and the United States. In her 2007 book, co-edited with Paul Spickard, entitled Is Lighter Better? Skin Tone Discrimination Among Asian Americans, she explores colorism as a phenomenon that no- not only plagues Filipinos, but Asian Americans actually more broadly. So now I’m gonna turn to Dr. Rondilia and her lecture entitled Don’t Stay Out in the Sun: Understanding Filipinx and Colorism. Go ahead, Joanne. Take it away. So happy you’re here.    [00:07:44] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: All right. Thank you so much, Robyn. It’s, uh… Do you mind if I call you Robyn? Shall I call you Dr. Robyn?    [00:07:50] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: Oh my God. You only know me as Robyn. Okay.    [00:07:56] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: I will call you Robyn, but everybody else, you, you are required to call her Dr. Robyn- … Queen Robyn. You know, that’s, that’s how. But it’s, it’s such a, a joy to be here. Um, you know, before we opened the doors, uh, Robyn and I were talking about, um, you know, what it is to be an academic and the type of language and, and spaces in which we share our research. And I think one of the things that’s really hard, especially for the soul of a lot of, uh, academics, is that we… it’s so rare for us to really share our research, uh, with the community, right? ‘Cause I don’t think of myself as a researcher. I think of myself more as a, a storyteller Right? And I think that that’s really, uh, when students- when I have students who refuse to, like, engage in research, I try to remind them, like, research is not… I don’t think of research as, uh, sort of like the white person’s, uh, uh, game. I think of research as something that is connected to us, um, and it’s our birthright. It’s our ancestral birthright, right? Because storytelling is our ancestral birthright, and that’s the lens in which I come into, uh, to exploring this issue of colorism.   [00:09:15] So show of hands, for those of you in the room, I’m curious to know how many of you were told, uh, were, were told this: “Don’t stay out in the sun or you’re- or, or else you’ll get too dark.” How many of you were raised with that sort of mantra? Yes. Right. I, I almost feel like these words, uh, are so quintessential to the Filipino experience or the Filipinx experience. Like, “Don’t stay out in the sun or else you’ll get too dark.” And I’m someone who, I was born and raised on Guam, um, and so everybody on Guam is dark because we are always out in the sun, right? And my mother is very light-skinned. Uh, she came from a middle-class family from San Pablo City in the Philippines. My father’s from Lucena, and he ca- he grew up poor, uh, and rai- was raised by a single mother. And so m- there was this definite class difference between my parents, uh, but there’s also a, a skin tone difference between my parents. Like, my dad was someone who was very, very kuripot. He was very cheap, but he had this great love for my mother. Um, you know, and I think part of that was he saw her as like, you know, this, this wonderful, like, prize almost, you know. Because she came from a well-to-do family, and, you know, when they got married, her family did not want them to get married because, uh, he was not wealthy. But he was someone who, because he works on Guam as an engineer for the government of Guam, uh, and, and the US military, like that sort of… and, and he had, uh, I think in total like 13 deeds to his name. That’s sort of what eased my, my mother’s family into, you know, being supportive of their marriage. But there was… And, and on my mother’s side of the family, this is a family, and mind you, I love them very much, but this is a family that, um, values beauty a lot, right? My mom and my aunties were all some form of provincial, uh, beauty queen And so this is why me and my brother and my sister were always told, “Don’t stay out in the sun or you’ll get too dark.” Because the idea was you had to preserve whatever, whatever it was our mother gave us, right? Even though, um, you know, like, uh, you know, even though, like, members of her family say didn’t, didn’t necessarily find us attractive , you know, the idea was, like, you know, as children of this, this woman or as chil- as, as, you know, members of this particular family, you had to, um, you had to sort of preserve yourself.   [00:12:18] So as a young kid growing up on Guam, I always wanted to go swimming, uh, ’cause my, my neighbors across the street, actually one of them, uh, represented the island of Guam, uh, during the 1988 Olympics in, in Seoul, right? So I always wanted to go swimming. I wanted to learn swimming, but my mother wouldn’t let me because I would get too dark And so that, you know, like, there, there was so much of our lives that were limited because of this need to preserve beauty. And this is how I entered the research, uh, the exploration of colorism. So very quickly, for those of you who do not know what colorism is, simply put, colorism is a looks-based or, you know, um, you know, physical look, a looks-based system of discrimination where light skin and Eurocentric features are favored over darker skin and non-Eurocentric features.   [00:13:13] These discriminations typically occur within the same racial or ethnic community. Uh, the term colorism was coined by, um, the writer Alice Walker. And when she first started writing about colorism, she was talking about, she was talking about colorism in a very intimate way. She was talking about the way in which lighter-skinned Black women evoked pain, right, uh, onto darker-skinned Black women. And so this is where she comes up with this term called colorism. Colorism is intimate. It happens within the same racial or ethnic group, typically. And the reason why I say typically is because, um, in our society, we live in a very colorist society. So I’m sure some of you, and you can throw up reactions, some of you know people, may be related to people who say, “I’m not a racist. I don’t have a racist bone in my body, in my body. I love Black people. I listen to Beyoncé. Halle Berry’s my favorite actress.” Like, you know, they’ll go on and on and on about how they’re not racist. But when you look at the patterns of what they deem is attractive or, um, sort of civilized among, uh, the Black or African American community, they always resort to people who tend to be, like, lighter skinned, right? And that’s also a way that, um, colorism manifests itself. It starts in the intimate space, but it manifests itself in a much larger, um, you know, in a much larger sphere. So for, um, the Filipinx community, when we look at popular culture, right? And, um, I don’t know if any of you have heard of the show or are watching a show called, uh, The Cleaning Lady It’s a new show that was, uh, it just premiered last week through Fox. And The Cleaning Lady, the reason why this is really big for, uh, the Filipinx community is because the… It, it’s supposed… It originally was supposed to be a Filipino storyline, right? And it was a way to sort of introduce, uh, you know, Filipinx characters in the public sphere. But what happened was S- Shannon Sossamon, the actress Shannon Sossamon, uh, was originally slated to play the main character, who is an undocumented, uh, Filipina maid, right? But something happened during the initial table read, so they end up casting Elodie Yung, who’s, uh, French Cambodian. So they changed the character a little bit, but when you look at the setting, it’s set in Los Angeles. It’s really a Filipino family. And my argument when I look at popular media and colorism is that oftentimes in popular media when they’re trying to introduce Filipino, Filipinx characters, it’s done through the mixed race body. It’s done through a mixed race person, right? So for those of you who may be familiar with Shannon Sossamon, she’s mixed race. She’s a mixed race Filipina, but she’s very white-passing, and it’s usually mixed race white-passing or mixed race white-pleasing, what I call white-pleasing, uh, Filipinos that popular culture suddenly becomes interested in us, right?   [00:16:45] And that’s what we see in a show like The Cleaning Lady. In the next few months, I think Jo Koy, uh, is going to have a movie called, um, I think it’s called Easter Sunday. And again, Jo Koy, very Filipino, right? It, it’s ingrained in his comedy. But what makes, what allows his fame to happen in the United States is that he’s very white-passing and white-pleasing, very different from someone like a Rex Navarette, whose career is much longer, right, than someone like a Jo Koy, right? So there’s definitely colorism at play, right? But when we’re looking at the intimate spaces, the way colorism plays out in the Filipinx community, it’s the lighter skinned Filipino discriminating against the darker skinned Filipino. In the Asian American community, it’s the Chinese person discriminating against the, the Cambodian person, right? So there, there’s these different levels of, of colorism at play. Colorism, um… It’s important to know that colorism is the discriminatory system that makes anti-Black and anti-Indigenous racism exist. It actually maintains anti-Black and anti-Indigenous racism. And the reason why this is important is, one, when we look at anti-Black racism, and you, you’re hearing this a lot, you know, um, either in academic circles or even in, uh, sort of, um, more popular conversations. I feel that it’s important to talk about anti-Black racism in conjunction with anti-Indigenous racism because they happen hand in hand. And when we look at the founding of the United States, for example, the founding of this country happens through the genocide of Indigenous peoples as well as the enslavement of African peoples. So they’re not separate. They come together. And so when we’re looking at colorism, the system of colorism, right? Colorism is what, is what allows anti-Black and anti-Indigenous racism to exist Um, what makes, um… And, and, and we see this through the different, uh, colonial periods of the Philippines. There’s something very distinct about colorism in the Filipinx community, and it really has to do with our, um, our, our colonial history.   [00:19:25] And so on the worksheet, there’s just a very sort of like quick and dirty kind of list of like these three major periods of colonization in the Philippines. What I really wanna ta- uh, point to is the role of the Chinese throughout these historical periods in the Philippines. Because, um, typically when you talk about colorism, uh, colorism is most prevalent in, um, the African American community and the Black diaspora. But there’s something very distinct about Filipinx colorism, and it’s that our notion of lightness is defined by Eurocentric standards of beauty, right? And this is because of Spanish colonization. But it’s also defined by Chinese standards of beauty or East Asian standards of beauty, and this is because of the positioning of the Chinese throughout these colonial periods. Because the Chinese, um, historically were the, um, were the merchant class, they were often elevated above indigenous Filipinos, right? And so that’s why today in the Philippines when you see people who are in power and you look at the mixed race or mestizo, you know, uh, the mixed race people who are in power in the Philippines, they’re often, uh, mixed race Chinese, right? And that’s because of the, the legacy and the presence of Chinese in the Philippines. And so it’s, um, it’s, it’s the history of the Chinese in the Philippines, th- these notions of Chinese lightness that really make colorism in the Philippines and among Filipinx very distinct. Uh, it’s a very distinct conversation.   [00:21:14] Um, uh, I wanted to pause and say if you have any questions or if I’m going too quickly, feel free to, you know, put this in the chat, and I will try to address it, um, as I go along. Um, in– At the beginning of the talk, I asked how many of you were told, “Don’t stay out in the sun.” And for those of you who said that you were told this, by show of hands, how many of you heard this in the context of family? How many of you were told this in the context of friends or any other intimate, uh, setting? ‘Cause oftentimes these messages are circulated among the family. And so When w- uh, and again, like colorism, you know, relative to racism, colorism has a very… There is this intimate aspect because oftentimes how we understand our own value and our own self-worth has to do with the messages that are articulated in the family, right? So, uh, one of the interviews that I had conducted, uh, was this, with this woman who when I conducted the interview, this was in the Philippines, and she worked in the entertainment industry in the Philippines. And she, um She, uh, had talked about how her lola would address her and her cousins. So the woman I interviewed, very light skin, light eyes, light hair, and that’s why she’s an entertainer in the Philippines.   [00:22:47] She’s a model, and at the time she was hosting a television show. And she said that growing up, her lola always called her Miss Universe, right? And it was because of the way that she looked. Her lola would call her cousin, who was, um, like Spanish mestiza, sh- so, uh, this person who I called Tyler, Tyler was Miss Universe. Her cousin was Miss Philippines ’cause she was mestiza, and then Tyler’s sister was Miss Cebu. So here, you know, like… And this is very blatant, and I’m not saying that all families are like this, but here you have this very explicit example of, a lola articulating the differences between these three young girls. Queen of the universe, queen of the Philippines, queen of the province. And in her interview, Tyler had said, “Yeah, it was very clear that Lola had her favorites, and it was in the way that she designated you in this spectrum of, like, these sort of beauty queen titles,” right? In another interview that I had, uh, conducted there, and this was an interview here in, um, the United States, uh, I- in the research I called her Milen. Milen talked about how whenever there was a dance or prom or something like that, there was this whole process of, you know, her and her brothers having to go to Lola’s house so that Lola could see, you know, what everyone was wearing and that there could be pictures. But what was very clear was, um, Milen’s youngest brother was clear…   [00:24:29] You know, her words were, “He was clearly not a favorite,” and this was largely because he was darker. He was often omitted from the photos. Um, Lola didn’t really care about what he was wearing and things like that. She always put attention to Milen, who was very light-skinned, uh, and her two brothers who are also very light-skinned. So there’s a very central role in which the family plays in how we understand, um, colorism and how we understand personal value And so as I was, uh, exploring this, uh, in sociology there’s a term called the beauty cue, and the beauty cue is a system of classification. It’s a societal system of classification that classifies women from lightest to dark to, you know, from most valuable to least valuable. And so what I did using this theory that Margaret Hunter had wr- uh, she wrote about, I added to this conversation by talking about the intimate beauty cue, because the beauty cue itself is about a societal, uh, a societal structure, but the intimate beauty cue is how we understand our value, how our notions of beauty are created in the most intimate spaces.   [00:25:47] And the reason why this is important to look at is because I think each and every one of us can, um, we can look at the TV and we can look at societal messages and say, “Yes, that’s how society understands beauty, but that’s not me because I’m my own person.” But in the intimate space among family and friends, when you’re getting the messages that you’re not beautiful or you’re not valuable and it’s coming from an unconditional love space such as the family, therein lies the problem and why colorism is such an intimate issue, because these are messages that are articulated by people, usually by people that you love or by people that you’re closest to.   [00:26:35] There is a gendered aspect to colorism. Women in families are often seen as being more responsible for, um, you know, for beauty or engaging in beauty practices over men. However, men do… You know, like, there is some pressure for men Uh, when we look at colorism in popular media, again, in the US sphere, the few chances we get to see Filipinos or Filipinx in popular media, they are oftentimes light-skinned, mixed-race people, such as, and again, the example of, um, The Cleaning Lady. We have the example of Jo Koy and his future projects. It’s not until we get into the independent sphere that we can see more variation. But when major institutions such as, uh, a Fox network or Netflix is trying to introduce a public to the Filipinx community, they’re gonna go with what they feel is safe, and it’s usually someone who’s light-skinned, someone who is white passing, someone who’s white pleasing, right? You know, there is something about, uh, the way in which popular media uses the mixed-race person or the mixed-race body. When you look at skin-lightening advertisements, oftentimes it’s a mixed-race person that is being used to model such products. Uh, this is over t- I think it’s over 10 years ago now. Um, there is a company in the Philippines called Glutamax, and when they launched their line, they used a mixed-race, um, Black Filipina model named Jinkee Oda.   [00:28:27] And what they did was they showed the sort of before and after, and one of the taglines in the advertisement in Tagalog, it said, “You could be white like me,” because it showed this progression of her being dark-skinned and then being light-skinned. And again, like, here for this particular, um, product, you’re seeing the usage of, um, you know, that, that progression. It harks to very old, uh, beauty advertisements that, um, sold products specifically to Black women, um, you know, especially skin-lightening products to Black women. So there’s, there’s a way in which the mixed-race person is often used to sell beauty, to sell product, to sell, to sell us our notions of, um, lightness Having said that, I’m not trying to demonize the mixed race person. I, you know, I, I don’t think it’s fair to, um, I do not think it’s fair to, for example, um, boycott Jo- Jo Koy because he’s so fair, right?   [00:29:35] Or, um, yes, I love that comment, how we lift up Olivia Rodrigo, but our love for her or Saweetie is very, is, it’s fairly limited. Exactly. You know, um, you know, like, I, I don’t want to attack the person, but if you’re light, you cannot… You, you have to recognize the amount of privilege that you have, right? Um, and then when we’re looking at skin lightening products, again, like this is a global, um, this is a, you know, a multi-billion dollar global industry. Um, in 2018 it was valued at 8.3 billion. 2022, those numbers have gone, have gone up. Um, and as of late there has been a lot of talk about, uh, skin lightening products for various reasons. Globally it’s because that market is so high, but here in the United States this has become an issue because skin lightening products and the usage and sale of skin lightening products has actually reached our policies.   [00:30:41] So for example, uh, the CARES Act. Um, because of the work of… Excuse me Because of the work of Ilhan Omar in the CARES Act, what, um, what was able to happen was the enforcement of the usage of a particular ingredient called hydroquinone. So this ingredient, uh, it’s a derivative of mercury, which is very harmful to the skin. Um, this is a very popular ingredient that is used by a lot of, uh, skincare professionals. Now there’s an enforcement about how you can buy or have access to this particular, uh, ingredient. So skin-lightening products and the, the conversation about skin-lightening products has been a huge issue as of late. Um, I wanna end with two thoughts, and it’s this. I want you to, to reflect, and I know this was a lot of me talking. I want you to reflect on the way in which we articulate ideas of colorism on a daily basis. I want you to think about, you know, just, uh, a few weeks ago, for those of you who may have gathered with family, what are the ways in which you’ve heard these, you know, certain ideas about colorism articulated? It’s often, “Oh, this, uh, this person is so beautiful.” Sometimes there’s a comparison of children. Sometimes when you’re greeted by the people you love, there’s comments about, oh, how dark or light you’ve gotten. Um, included in the conversations about colorism is body size, how much weight you have or have not lost. You know, um, the, this is all part of the c- colorism conversation. There’s a daily… There’s a way in which we articulate ideas of colorism on a daily basis. I want you to reflect on, um, the beauty practices that we engage in, you know? If we… You know, like, if I dye my hair blonde or if I wear, you know, green contacts, what is my reason behind it?   [00:32:50] Is it because I want to engage in a sense of play? Or is it because I’m trying to escape a part of my identity, right? These are, these are important questions for us to ask because these are the daily, everyday ways that we, um, sort of, we contribute to these ideas of colorism. Um, and that, um, I believe is connected to the everyday practice of anti-racism, right? Um, you know, it’s important to understand that, like, there’s no end because, you know, with respect to colorism, this is a systemic issue. And so what we have to do is tackle it piece by piece. Sometimes it’s about the practices that we engage in, uh, individually, but it’s also about the way in which we engage with the people around us. With respect to colorism, because it’s so intimate, right, it’s about having the hard conversations, um, with the people that we love the most, right? Our friends and family    [00:33:55] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Dr. Randilia. You know, I actually have a, a question. I’m wondering, Jo-Ann, do you feel, especially with increasingly more, um, kind of mixed race, uh, especially kind of Black and Filipinx, um, figures, um, you know, uh, in popular culture, is your sense that there is a shifting around colorism, um, or not?   [00:34:28] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: I think that there’s small shifts, right? So I think of, uh, for… And I’m looking at the com- the comment, the Magandang Morenx, and then also, you know, we, we do have like, um, you know, the, the Black and Filipinx sort of mixed race entertainers like her and Saweetie. Um, also, uh, there’s some no- notable athletes that are Black and, um, Filipinx. Like, I think of, I think of their popularity as moments as opposed to actual, like, movements, right? And the reason being is because white supremacy is so prevalent, it’s going to take so much to dismantle that system, right? The magnitude of, of white supremacy is, is beyond anything that we can, you know, like, we can quantify, right? And so, um, I, you know, like, so I, I think of, uh, I, I think of something like the Magandang Morenx movement, I think that they’re important. I, I think of them more as moments because… And it’s not because, uh, they’re not powerful. It’s because white supremacy is just so prevalent, right? Um, and so, and I, I don’t mean to be the pessimist in, in that, you know.   [00:35:50] Um, I think the way that we, the way we move forward is to do the heart and soul work, right? To do the anti-racist work, to recognize the ways in which, um, we contribute to anti-Black and anti-Indigenous racism, but to make the conscious decision that this is gonna, like, I, I’m going to work towards eradicating it e- while knowing that eradication may not happen in your lifetime. And I’d hate to be the pessimist. It’s not gonna happen in our lifetimes. But our jobs right now is to plant the seeds towards that vision, right? It’s to plant the seeds to make these moments the actual movement, to make it so overwhelming to white supremist systems that white supremist systems have no choice but to go away. But it takes so much, um, so much seed planting. Um-    [00:36:49] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: So Joanna, it looks like there’s two questions that are sort of interrelated, and both, I think you probably saw them, um, kind of connect with concretely, you know, some ideas around or strategies around addressing, um, both colorism and anti-Blackness in the intimate space of the family or among friends, et cetera.   [00:37:10] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: Okay. Think that is an excellent, uh, question and something that I have grappled with and, you know, is very close to my heart. The first thing I’ll say is there’s no easy way to bring this up with family and friends, right? Especially, you know, um, in our families, especially in our respective families. Um, how… I mean, you know your moms and dads, you know your lolas. You, you know them, and you know they’re hella stubborn, right? Like… And so the advice that I have is this: It’s impossible to change someone’s mind. What you can do is model certain behavior, right? What you can do is model certain language, right? And that alone will speak volumes- Yeah because you are not gonna change, you know, maybe you’re not gonna change, like, your lolo or lola’s mind. But the people around you are listening. And so here, here’s an example, right? Um- W- uh, for me, e- especially in, like, having these conversations with my mom, because she’s very much the driving force, uh, for a lot of the research that I do, you know, um, I know my mom, and I know that if I make her feel like crap, like if I make her feel stupid or if I make her feel like, um, what she’s saying is old and antiquated, I, I know that I’m not gonna get through to her.   [00:38:36] So what I had to do with my mom was event- was create a love language of understanding, right? Because by creating a love language of understanding the ways in which, like, some of her comments have hurt me, when I started to actually honestly articulate my pain, it’s not that my mom let go of some of these ideas, but she started to create an understanding of the impact of her words. And what that did was it changed the way she would… Like, she wouldn’t say the things she would say. She wouldn’t tell me how dark I was. She wouldn’t make comments about, like, me being fat or whatever, right? Because she understood, she understood the impact of that. And as I started to, to realize, like, okay, we may not come to an agreement, but there’s a love language that we can speak to, that’s how I started seeing changes in, in the way that we interact, right?   [00:39:33] Um, and so you can’t change someone’s ideas, but what you can do is plant seeds and sort of, and really stand your ground in terms of how you feel about certain ideas, right? But you have to do that in a love language ’cause Filipinos, the language we speak is love, right? So that, I, I think that’s, that’s what’s important. It- You have to understand that you may not change someone’s mind, but you’re also making it so that the people around are listening. ‘Cause I see the way that, like, my niece, you know, my nieces and nephews, they had just… They have such a better way of dealing with my mom when she would say terrible racist things, right? They had a better way of communicating with her and articulating their, their frustration and their anger, and it would change. It may not have always changed my mother’s ideas, but it definitely changed her behavior, and it changed her consciousness, and I think that that’s all we can really do, um, is develop that love language.   [00:40:39] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: And if I may, if, uh, if I can just also add, you know, I, I, I think what you said is absolutely spot on and really resonates, um, Joanne. And, and I would add also, I think that there’s something, um, really important about how these broader social movements can also-    [00:40:55] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: Mm-hmm …    [00:40:56] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: become so important. I mean, so just in my own family, you know, my eldest was, uh, biracial, Black Filipino. And, um, of course, having a biracial, uh, grandson didn’t necessarily mean that my mother could also grapple with her own deep anti-Blackness. Um, and it was always a struggle. And, and I agree with Joanne. Sometimes, you know, it is really understanding the particularities of the, of your own dynamic with, with specific intimates in your circle and understanding that certain kinds of lo-lov-love languages open up possibilities for conversation whi- whereas other approaches close off. But I do have to say, you know My mother, you know, is going to be 79. It really took, it took all the movements that happened- Mm-hmm … in response to the George Floyd murder, it took all of the movements around anti-Asian hate for my mother for the very first time, and this is some- You know, I’m her daughter. I’ve been teaching around race and talking about race. I, you know, I, I produced a biracial grandson for her, right? Um, and it– we could never have real frank conversations about white supremacy, could not really touch it, you know? There was a way that my mother didn’t want to, to name white supremacy as something that actually shaped her life. And, you know, those are really com- there may be complicated reasons for that, but being able to name that was always really, really hard. Talking about anti-Blackness was hard. But all of those movements did something for her, and it shifted things in ways that I thought w-were going to be impossible at, by the time- Yeah you know, in her period of life. And not only did she– was she able to have some real kind of honest conversations, but she actually became a kind of advocate, and then used her own platforms to start conversations about white supremacy, um, and kind of race in our community. So I guess that’s to say that it’s not entirely hopeless, you know?   [00:42:57] I think- Yeah … it is true change can be slow. It can be incremental. It comes in these gentle kinds of ways, um, over time that require a lot of love and patience. And couple that with, I think, also kind of these movements that are also equally invi- uh, important to grow, um, that together that you can see change is, is really absolutely possible. Um, so, you know, just to kind of share that. But it, it is. You know, it’s so hard ’cause even within a family where there are biracial, uh, family members, right? It– that isn’t itself even going to necessarily change even when they have, right, a loved one, um, that ought to be- Yeah … challenging that for them.   [00:43:44] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, too, um, you know, another thing that helped me, especially, you know, like with my mom… So when I did the research, I did spend some time in the Philippines, and my mom came with me, right? So seeing my mom’s very light-skinned, um, you know, uh, Filipina navigate the Philippines. And so I just wanna say for the record, I know I look really light, and it’s because we’re in COVID, and your girl has not had some sun, okay? Like just, just so that… ‘Cause I’m looking at them like, “God, yeah,” like I know I look light. I swear, you know, I’ll show you pictures. But, you know, um, I, I didn’t– At the time when my mom came with me to the Philippines, I did not realize how important it was for me to observe her in the Philippines because I was able to get these glimpses of my mom before she was a mom, right? And I was able to understand, like, okay, like… So one of the sort of things that I learned was, like, all these hurtful things that, like, my mom would say to me about the way that I look and what have you, I learned that part of the reason why she leaned in so hard to, with me is because when we would travel, you know, like go around to, like, malls or whatever in the Philippines, people would always tell her, “Oh my gosh,” like, “your daughter looks just like you.”   [00:45:09] And, like, if my mom were sitting next to me, and you can see this in, like, uh, photos with the two of us, like she’s very vanilla, and next to her I look like burnt caramel. And I think that there was something about the embodiment of my body size, ’cause I’m big, you know, and, and my, my darker skin tone. It’s almost like I was the physical embodiment of everything that she had feared and everything that she was told you should not. And for her, it was confronting, like, I gave birth to this, to this person who’s everything that I, you know, that I was told was wrong, right? And so I think I, I… You know, like just watching her navigate, I began to understand, like, the context in which she was raised. I, I started to understand the messaging that she, uh, was, was given. Because when I finished the dissertation, I, I felt like I finished the dissertation at a place where I could actually forgive my mother for all the things that she would say about me. I c- I could forgive her for, like, the comments that she would make because all those things that she imposed onto me was a product of her own pain, and I was able to have something that she did not have, which is a sense of healing. ‘Cause until her very last breath, she was so trapped by these notions of beauty. She was so trapped by needing to be beautiful because this was the constant messaging that she was given, right? And so What we can offer, you know, and the way that we, um, the way that we engage in our sense of healing, especially with the people that we love, really comes down to I know that when my mom left the world, I planted all the seeds that I needed to plant in her, right? I know… Sorry. I know that I have this healing, something that she could not have. I know that her grandchildren don’t have to suffer the pain that she did. So I think understanding our family, right? Understanding, like, um, you know, uh, the people, our family and friends, understanding them in that respect, putting into context the reason why they do the painful things we do, choosing how w- choosing the way in which we heal from the things that they did to us, that’s all we can really do, right? And all of this, I think, and I’d hate to sound so cheesy but all of this is encased in, like, this deep, profound sense of the love that we have for ourselves, the love that we have for each other. In the midst of confronting immense colonial legacies that time and time again tell us that we are not worth it, right? If we can find that light, and if we can find that value, and if we can share that value with the people around us, that’s all we can really do.    [00:48:20] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: Joanne.   [00:48:25] Thank you.    [00:48:26] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: Sorry about that.    [00:48:27] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: You don’t have to apologize. I think that’s one thing about this space, Bulosan’s space, the School for Liberating Education, is we all do this out of deep, deep, deep love, right? That that’s the whole purpose- Yeah … of being able to host, um, share s- to create space like this, to share space like this. Um, we all know, um, people like you, me, uh, those of us who chose this path into academia, we didn’t do this because we wanted to produce knowledge for an institution that wasn’t built for and by us.    [00:49:00] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: Mm-hmm.    [00:49:00] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: But it was precisely to produce knowledge that could heal and liberate our people. Yeah. And so, you know, so appropriate for you to feel all of those feelings, and that’s why it was so important to have you here, because this is such, uh, for so many of us, a deeply, deeply hurtful kind of… We s- we struggle with this, and I think what I-    [00:49:25] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: Mm-hmm …    [00:49:26] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: What’s so valuable, what you bring to the table is it’s so much more complicated than the colorism. There are all of the ways in which colorism intersects with class, intersects with body. I, I mean, you know, even the whole notion of, like, the magandang morenx. I mean, you know, that there are even these fine distinctions that exist in the Philippines about the morena mestiza. You know? Like, that was, like, the, the way that I would get, like, weirdly, like, sideways complimented. Like, “Oh, she’s a morena mestiza, though,” you know? Mm-hmm. What does that mean? But, you know, our bodies, um, are subject to such scrutiny within at least that context, and even in this context, right? We’re constantly dealing with… We’re actually dealing with multiple contexts, right? Contexts, Filipinx folks in the diaspora, where our bodies are subject to examination and evaluation- Mm-hmm … every single day, and we subjected ourselves also, our bodies to- Yeah … these valuations all the time. And, you know, um, and we do this work because we’re trying to find, you know, a way out, right?   [00:50:29] A way, um, to heal all those, um, bits of hurt and brokenness and, you know- I mean, thank you so much, uh, Joanne, for not just sharing your amazing research, but also your heart with us. And I think I can m- I can feel that, um, people came away with, uh, from today with just that much more, um, just healing. And, you know, that’s the point. That is why we do what we do here. Yeah. Um, uh, that’s why we created, uh, the Balosan Center and, um, why I launched the School for Liberating Education. Um, this is the whole, this is the reason why we do this. And so I, with that, I do wanna thank everybody for joining us, um, and, you know, really invite everyone to continue to follow, uh, the work, um, that we’re doing at the Balosan Center, what we’re doing at the School for Liberating Education.   [00:51:27] The next major thing actually is next week. So my next book is coming out, um, on Asian American activism. Uh, it’s actually really cool to talk about coming full circle, Jo-Ann, because basically this is a collab between our professor, our old professor, um, when we were undergrads at UC Santa Barbara, Diane Fujino and I, um, ended up collaborating on a couple things, and this is the latest collab, which is a anthology on Asian American activism. And one of the things I’m doing is launching a mini course, um, on Asian American activism, uh, that’s based on the book, but also stuff I’ve done, um, on activism. So next week, I guess on Thursday, we’re officially launching, um, the, the new, uh, the registration for the new course. And so we’re launching it with this conversation I have with, um, Art Nagin Concordia, who is the godfather of ethnic studies in the K through 12 system, basically the ninong of ethnic studies in K through 12. Uh, was one of the key authors for the ethnic studies model curriculum and does m- uh, ethnic studies work at Santa Barbara, actually, also with Diane. So anyway, um, that’s coming up next week. But do keep following, um, you know, the, the work that we’re doing. This is, uh, you know, such important work, um, supporting our scholars and our artists, our community historians. And again, thank you so much, Jo-Ann. Yeah, no. I really think we have our real, real conversation. ‘Cause one of the projects I always wanted to do is, uh –    [00:53:09] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: Yes.    [00:53:09] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: No, thank you … a podcast that gets real, real, like real, real. Yes. Like, let’s really talk about-    [00:53:13] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: Just so you know, you’re- … those    [00:53:14] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: real stories …    [00:53:15] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: you’re looking at, like, 25 years- of friendship, so I know lots of, uh, Robyn’s secrets. I have lots of pictures ’cause I- Yeah. Oh, my God … was very good at documenting these things.    [00:53:24] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: You, you did that photo shoot of my… I think you did a before and after of my ja- my, my, my eyebrows.    [00:53:30] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: I have a photo of you, like, in a, in a, like, a face mask.    [00:53:34] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: Yes. Yes, yes. You can- So- If, if, if I look this good coming on 50- … it’s because Joanne taught me about makeup and skincare regimens.    [00:53:46] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: Well, I’m gonna, I’m gonna launch a course on my skincare regimen.    [00:53:51] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: Oh my God.    [00:53:54] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: Skincare after your 30s, right?    [00:53:57] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: No, seriously, I’m about to launch, I’m not, I’m not even joking. I’m totally launching a whole, uh, journey to 50, so y’all can come because I, I’m, I’m, I’m going. I’m getting there. As of next, or the week after next, it’s T minus 365 days to 50. So join in the fun. Anyway, Joanne, it’s so great to see you. I wish I could give you a big hug. Uh,   [00:54:21] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: well, we’ll see each other soon hopefully.   [00:54:23] Dr. Robyn Rodriguez: I can’t wait to, like, really break bread with you because- Yes … you know, I always know I eat well when I’m with you. Like, I r- I will still- I still dream about the ice cream, that homemade ice cream you make. Like, nothing compares ever again to the ice cream that I consumed that you make. So thanks again. Thanks everyone.    [00:54:43] Dr. Joanne Rondilla: Thank you so much everybody. Hope to see you. Thank you.    [00:54:58] Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night.   The post APEX Express – 8.27.26. Dr. Robynn’s Spitting Fire on Colorism appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 8.20.26 – My Family Ep. 1 20.08.2026 59мин

  Explore APSC’s My Family Audio Series A story-driven 3-part audio project about Cambodian, Hmong, Laotian, Vietnamese, and other Southeast Asian families doing everything possible to breathe with ease and live freely besides the people we love.  Created by the Asian Prisoner Support Committee and APEX Express, and hosted by writer and activist Michelle MiJung Kim, My Family seeks to answer many of the questions countless families in our communities are grappling with today. Mass deportation and family separation are fueled by isolation and silence. With My Family, we aim to dismantle both with stories full of heart, compassion, and an honest look at the tangled paths many of us take to reckon with the past, rebuild our lives, and make a new place home.  Our deep gratitude extends to all the community members who shared their stories with us, even while painful to recount. Their commitment to creating stronger, more informed communities is unparalleled.    My Family Ep. 1: How did we get here?  In our first episode, we talk to Roger Viet Chung to bring APSC’s longstanding Restoring Our Original True Selves (ROOTS) program from inside San Quentin to listeners outside. Roger is faculty in the Department of Ethnic Studies at Laney College and a founder and faculty lead of Restoring our Communities (ROC), Laney College’s program for formerly incarcerated students and justice involved juveniles. He previously served as the lead instructor and curriculum designers of ROOTS.  We also speak with NC, Pam, and T. NC was deported to Laos this past year. Pam was deported to Cambodia three years ago, and T was deported to Cambodia six years ago.  Music from episode 1, as well as related resources, can be found below in the show notes. If you are an impacted community member in California or have a family member who is directly impacted by detention and deportation, we encourage you to contact APSC at [email protected] or our partners at New Light Wellness and the Center for Empowering Refugees and Immigrants.   Music: Somleng Tro Khmer by Satiya, a Cambodian Australia singer and songwriter Pka Kompong Thom by Satiya   Resources: My Family Episode 1 discussion guide  APSC Data Report on Incarcerated and Formerly Incarcerated Asians and Pacific Islanders Asian Law Caucus legal resources and video explainers for Southeast Asians facing deportation threats Eddy Zheng’s story    Transcript Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:00:00] All across the United States, ICE, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, is terrorizing immigrant neighborhoods. Every time I scroll on social media, I see horrifying videos of children being ripped apart from their parents as they get shoved inside unmarked cars of ICE agents. You can hear the family’s cries for help, children wailing, neighbors and protesters yelling at the abductors.   The scene is [00:01:00] pure chaos, swirling with desperation and fear. I notice I’m clenching my jaw as I imagine the trauma of the moment that will last a lifetime for these families. But the scene usually ends here, and not long after I scroll away, I’m met with another slew of videos of similar intensity. But what happens to the people after this painful moment?   What happens to the families after the protesters depart? What happens when their loved ones actually get detained, get deported? where do they go, and what happens to those who remain? I’m your host, Michelle MiJung Kim, and I’m partnering with the Asian Prisoner Support Committee and APEX Express to bring you stories from families who are grappling with the impossible choices amid the cruelty and horrors of mass detention and deportation, stories full of truth, understanding, and lived experiences that are too often hidden or silenced. [00:02:00]   Tony (pseudonym): Even though I don’t have no family and I don’t even have no family over there, and I don’t even know nothing about Vietnam because I left the country when I was 10 years old.”   My dad raised all four of m- you know, me and my sibling all by himself. So just emotion and everything rush in, it’s just like, you know, heartbreaking.   So every time, when my dad come to visit me, he always break down and cry because he just like, feel sad that his oldest son is gonna get shipped back to his country.   Pam (pseudonym): My son bought a car for me. He bought a car. He’s like, “Mama, you’re not getting deported. I got you a Honda Civic already. I got you a car. I got a place for you.” You know how, that affect me when your family member bought you stuff be thinking they’d be coming home?   Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:03:00] Every family threatened by ICE is different, with their unique traditions, memories, and inside jokes. But there are also fears and questions that every community being ripped apart shares, whether our families are Asian, Latino, Black, or Arab. For many Southeast Asians in the United States, there’s one other thing in common.   Their families found refuge here in the ’70s and ’80s, fleeing unthinkable genocide and war in Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos. Most have loved ones who didn’t survive. The ones who made it out, around one point one million, are the largest refugee community ever resettled in the United States. Upon arriving here, families were forced into impoverished and under-resourced neighborhoods.   Parents who just lived through war and genocide never got the mental and physical healthcare they critically needed. To survive poverty and attacks in their neighborhoods and schools, some youth turned to gangs and [00:04:00] crimes. After serving their time, they’ve since grown up, transformed, and found their ways to heal.   They are now mentors, parents, small business owners, homeowners, just everyday neighbors who, like most of us, take their kids to school and pick up groceries and call this country home. And yet, around sixteen thousand of these Southeast Asian community members are facing imminent deportation based on convictions from years, if not decades ago, and despite the fact that they already served their sentence.   Today, California is home to the largest Southeast Asian American population, followed by Texas, Washington, and Minnesota. And these families are seeking answers. How did we get here? What can we do to keep our family safe and together? And their friends and neighbors are asking questions, too. How can this be?   What can we do? That’s where these stories come [00:05:00] in. We’re taking a closer look at what happens to families after the headlines pass and the blaring noise quiets down. You’ll hear directly from people who are living on all sides of this nightmare, all trying to do what’s best for their kids, their parents, their loved ones.   Welcome to My Family.   As some listeners may know, the Asian Prisoner Support Committee based in Oakland, California, was born out of the campaign to support the San Quentin 3, Eddy Zheng, Viet Mike Ngo, and Rico Riemedio. The San Quentin 3 advocated for ethnic studies in the California State Prison, and in retaliation, the prison administration sent them to solitary confinement.   Out of that struggle, they started the Restoring Our Original True Selves, or ROOTS program at San Quentin, which the Asian [00:06:00] Prisoner Support Committee continues today, teaching hundreds of people under the motto, ” No history, no self. Know history, know self.” Together in ROOTS, community members incarcerated in California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation prisons, or CDCR, learn immigrant and refugee histories, address intergenerational and inherited trauma, and build lifelong leadership and community skills.   Many ROOTS alumni are now mentors and counselors in California, while others are working in reentry, violence prevention, faith, and other community organizations across the state.   To kick off our first episode, we’ll start with some context from Roger Viet Chung. Roger is faculty in the Department of Ethnic Studies at Laney College in Oakland, and founder and faculty lead of Restoring Our Communities, Laney’s program for formerly incarcerated students and justice-involved youth.   He has served as the lead instructor and curriculum developer of the ROOTS in San [00:07:00] Quentin.   A content warning for our listeners that in today’s episode we’ll be discussing war and genocide, inherited trauma and self-hatred, depression, and family separation. Here’s Roger.   Roger Viet Chung: My name is Roger Viet Chung. Uh, I’m from Oakland, California, and I currently work for Laney College. At Laney College I instruct in the Department of Ethnic Studies, a range of classes that range from Southeast Asian studies all the way to courses like race, gender, and sports.   In 2013, um, I had the honor and privilege of, supporting and facilitating a course for Asian Americans and others in San Quentin State Prison, and which launched me on a, a journey of understanding more about incarceration, the prison industrial complex, abolition, the way pipelines form. And since 2013, I’ve been deeply involved in figuring out how to work reentry, how to support those in custody, how to help people come home, how to help people on parole tell their stories.   Um, [00:08:00] and so since 2013, uh, I’ve been working for a program called Restoring Our Communities, which is a reentry program at Laney College, where we support the reentry of folks coming home from prison, jail, juvenile hall and help them explore their post-secondary pathways and dreams. In addition to that, I also run our Laney College, a satellite campus inside the Alameda County Juvenile Justice Center, where, we work with, uh, young people who are interested in going to college, transferring to four-year universities, um, and, uh, reuniting with their families.   Uh, I’m a Vietnamese American. I was born in, uh, 1978 and, born in the United States, my proximity to incarceration and the entire carceral landscape you know, was pretty distant up until I went to graduate school. Uh, when I was in graduate school in, um, the early 2000s, I heard a story about a person named Eddy Zheng, who at that time was incarcerated in San Quentin State Prison.   We heard this story about how Eddy and two other folks were asking for ethnic studies programming at their [00:09:00] prison when there was a growing movement for education inside CDCR. Uh, we understood that, you know, that movement, um, you know, landed Eddy in solitary confinement, got him transferred, uh, to another prison.   And I think for me, that was my first moment where as an Asian American, I connected both with this idea that Asian Americans were doing time, but also you know, it intersected with my field of study, ethnic studies. And so, that was probably my first moment where I saw myself possibly in the work.   Michelle MiJung Kim: Before we come back to Roger, we had a chance to talk to Eddy Zheng about his fight for ethnic studies at San Quentin, the early days of APSC, and how he continues to support incarcerated and formerly incarcerated community members. Let’s hear from Eddy   Eddy Zheng: Happy New Breath everyone. My name is Eddy Zheng.   The importance of ethnic studies, Asian American study, [00:10:00] is really focuses on the long tradition of the struggles, that many of the immigrants and refugees, the people who came to this country, uh, for multiple reasons, right? Some of them came voluntarily, and some of them came as refugee because the forced migration as a result of the United States’ foreign policies, and then many of the push and pull challenges that came from other, uh, countries across the world.   The long tradition of, of that struggle really is a internal one, right? The internal struggle is finding a sense of belonging in a foreign country or in a country even though we may be born here sometimes, there’s still this sense of being treated and being respected as an American versus a perpetual uh, foreigner.    And for many of the people who were impacted by the criminal legal system [00:11:00] and by this type of oppressive foreign policy and systemic racism oftentimes people don’t necessarily get an opportunity to understand their culture and history that informs their identity. So therefore as even I was learning how to read and write and speak English and to eventually to become thinking critically I have experienced the power of when I was able to comprehend and articulate the connection that I have, right, with my ancestors and my culture and the history that informs my identity.   Immediately, I was able to, find confidence and find that sense of belonging that I was not alone, that there, there was a long lineage of the knowledge, The connected point to, not only who I am as an individual, but then who I am connected [00:12:00] to, the rest of the humanity, right?   I think when we talk about that lineage really ties back to the 1968 Third World Liberation Front, when students and people in the community, the activists that who stood up fighting for the opportunity to have curriculums and, or materials that really teaches a more well-rounded history around, the makeup of the United States of America, So the fight for the Asian American studies, women’s studies, and global studies was very important, as it continue to 1969 in UC Berkeley, and then also later on in 1999, where students are also facing threats of having ethnic studies and Asian American studies eliminated, from the university curriculum, right?   So I have experienced all those lineage of struggles to fight for what the basic academic right, for people [00:13:00] to learn about each other’s culture and history and how that historically has been continued to also trying to erase history. when I was in San Quentin State Prison, then once I was able to start to become a thinker, then I realized especially after September 11, the scapegoating of people of color, scapegoating of people that who came from other countries is perpetuated within the prison industrial complex, myself and three of my friends, we were advocating for, uh, the opportunity to be able to, uh, engage, in this process of, Asking to have Asian American studies or ethnic studies within the prison college program, And so that, that was when we signed a proposal, you know, advocating not only for the opportunity, to study, Asian American histories a- and cultures, but other people’s culture and [00:14:00] histories at the same time, and then also honoring the prisoners’ rights, right?   To choose, what we want to learn and how we participate in the decision-making process within the volunteer-ran college program in the San Quentin State Prison. The outcome was the three of my friends who signed the proposal you know, Mike Ngo Rico Riemedio we were, uh, put into solitary confinement uh, for signing that proposal.   And then my other friend that, who signed the proposal, Stephen Liebb, you know, even though he didn’t go to solitary confinement, that he, but he was punished as a result of signing the proposal. That’s when the forming of an unexpected Asian American movement, right, in the Bay Area, which is the Asian Prisoner Support Committee, where volunteers and activists that who have heard of the struggles, of the activism inside San Quentin advocas- in advocacy for Asian American studies, ethnic studies, and prisoners rights, that they [00:15:00] came together to support us, you know, inside the prison system.   And so it’s very interesting in that, the dynamic, uh, between, we want you to, uh, learn and we wanna give you opportunity to learn, but then learning and applying what you learn comes at a price, that’s where the importance of why ethnic studies of Asian Americans are important because it allow us to gain power, right? when we gain power of thinking, and critical thinking, then there’s this fear from the, the people that, who have power and don’t wanna share that power.   And so that’s why it’s very important. So fast-forward to post-incarceration after… first of all, I spent 11 months, uh, in solitary confinement as a result of that advocacy in San Quentin. And then later on, uh, when I was finally released after, uh, being incarcerated for 21 years, [00:16:00] I’ve never forgotten the importance of, creating more learning opportunities within the prison system for those that who are still incarcerated.   Around 2012, that’s when we, you we meaning that, you know, that’s when I me and members of the Asian Prisoner Support Committee, we started thinking about how do we go inside the prison and create Asian American studies and ethnic studies program inside, We were able to went under you know, as volunteers, we were able to go into San Quentin State Prison to participate, uh, in in this program called, TRUST. I believe the acronym is, uh, Teaching Responsibility Utilizing Sociological Training, uh, which is designed to transform incarcerated men, uh, from social liabilities into assets, right?   So, Uh, while we were participating, we were able to get an opportunity to engage The participants who are [00:17:00] AAPIs to ask them if they are interested into creating a program where we’re able to, learn about our culture and history, And they all agreed that it’s important.   After about, like, almost like a year or more of kind of like a collaboration, brainstorming, and advocacy from within the prison, finally in 2013, I think that’s when, we started the first cohort of the ROOTS program. The ROOTS acronym is Restoring Our Original True Selves, uh, which is, really came about as a result of the brainstorming of the prisoners, a lo- of many of the lifetime prisoners who were inside.    Because they felt that along the way they have lost themselves, right, as they were trying to find a sense of belonging.   So the goal is to, uh, use that as a way to heal intergenerational trauma that many of the prisoners experience when they came to the United States, and that ended up, making poor choices and then, [00:18:00] uh, involved in the criminal legal system.   that’s when the first ROOTS program was started in 20, uh, 13. And then what is interesting was that when it started, I wasn’t allowed to go in to participate in the program that I co-founded with the people inside, it wasn’t, uh- Until the graduation of the first cohort of ROOTS, uh, that they allow me to go in to do a keynote speech, right? Because the participants inside, advocated saying that, “Hey, we would like Eddy to come in to be our keynote speaker at our graduation.”   And so that’s when I was able to go in and really, experience this fruition of all the advocacy. seeing many of those leaders and participants graduating from the first year of the ROOTS program really solidified why an Asian American study is so important, right? It really focuses on, uh, for the participant to [00:19:00] learn about the connection the, to the ancestors and the culture and, and the history.   I mean, That sense of belonging they had lost along the way or for many was not able to learn in traditional economic environment, and then part of this is also even though the curriculum focused Asian American studies, but then it also connects to other people’s colors of histories and how the intersection of that of that experience domestically, internationally, are connected to the same systems of oppression in, in that space.   I think what, what is also important is that once they were able to learn about their own culture and history, they inform their identity. They’re able to also learn about other people’s history, other people’s culture that inform their identities. So immediately there’s opportunity to, humanize each other And so that’s why this is so important that we must engage in the collective learning [00:20:00] process that allow us the opportunity for collective healing. And when the collective learning, collective healing is invested and engaged in racial solidarity, that’s how we can embark on this journey of collective liberation.   The ROOTS program is the first ever Asian American studies ethnic studies program in the history of the penal system, and then this continues on to today, right? since 2013.   Michelle MiJung Kim: That was Eddy Zheng. In 2017, Eddy founded the New Breath Foundation to help underserved frontline groups empower, heal, and change the lives of Asian, Native Hawaiian, and Pacific Islander community members with a focus on the incarcerated, formerly incarcerated, and those who have been impacted by immigration and criminal legal [00:21:00] systems.   Let’s return to Roger and what stood out to him when he first started working in San Quentin.   Roger Viet Chung: I think when I first went into San Quentin State Prison in 2013, um, again, I mentioned I was born in 1978, and, um, you know, I looked across the room to people who were around my age, um, none of whom were actually born in the United States. And so I think there’s this really interesting question that needs to be pursued around Southeast Asians, Asian Americans that have immigrated at a young age, you know, largely through, the pathways of war that make that experience so much different than a, an experience like my own, right?   Born here in the United States, but also different than my parents, who immigrated to the United States as adults. And so the 1.5 generation as we will frame it today, we’re gonna be talking about Asian Americans, Southeast Asians, refugees, immigrants that came to the United States at a, a young age, you know, all the way up until their adolescence. We’re looking at a population that has had significant experience with [00:22:00] social institutions like schools, uh, elementary schools, middle schools, and high schools that their parents may not have.   This was a time in California where we began to see more prisons being built, more apparatuses designed to be able to figure out how to work with young people, mainly through the lens of punishment and deterrence.   And so I think the idea of coming into, a state like California during a political landscape where, punishment, prisons and tough on crime positions were being applied to both adults and young people is something to consider when we’re thinking about the 1.5 generation, um, that has been incarcerated.   I think that as the 1.5 generation immigrated into the United States you know, through various refugee and immigration policies, you know, they’re inheriting a context in California where they’ve already been criminalized and their pathways into, uh, juvenile halls, into county jails, and into state prisons are being mapped out, without them really even knowing.   In [00:23:00] ROOTS, um, which was an Asian Prisoner Support Committee sponsored program, everyone has an, a unique and individual story, but, you know, the more we learned about people’s stories, there just seemed to be a lot of collective threads that, tied everyone together. so if we were to talk about the 1.5 generation, you know, like a common collective journey would be something like this, right?   You know, whether a person escaped from Vietnam, Cambodia or Laos a lot of the common stories were, young people were born in Southeast Asia during or at the tail end of the wars in Southeast Asia, and most of them were not part of the original refugee exodus, which mainly featured, the elite and the educated.   And so one of the collective stories has been that a lot of the 1.5 generation, who would have otherwise left at much younger ages or even been born in the United States were experiencing significant transitions in countries that, were returning from civil [00:24:00] war. a lot of that destruction and a lot of the, the trauma and those experiences, right, began right around there.   And when people began thinking about, exiting, these positions, whether it be for political or, or class-based reasons or both, one of the collective stories that we tended to hear very often was that young people were really able to visualize, remember, right, even today, a lot of violence, a lot of trauma, that, you know, really propelled their, either their escape or, their emigration Young people met, went to camps oftentimes.   If they left Vietnam, they were in the Philippines, Malaysia, Hong Kong or Thailand. And if, you left Cambodia or you left Laos, you ended up in a variety of different forms of camps in Thailand awaiting for United Nations sponsorship. I think this is an important part of understanding the journey, because a lot of the one point five generation that became incarcerated were exposed to a variety of different traumas at [00:25:00] young ages that they still had kind of these vivid memories of.   And so as they, they left camps, you know, many stayed in camps for months, some even years. They were resettled into the United States, often in places that didn’t have a lot of Asian Americans. And so at the time, United States refugee policy really asked all the states to share, right, some sort of, right, burden in resettling refugees.   And so a lot of the one point five generation that we met inside San Quentin, you know, their story in the United States didn’t actually originate in California. Many of them were in Wisconsin or Ohio or Florida or Arkansas as their first stop into the United States before their parents did a secondary migration into a place that had more support, had a stronger ethnic community, um, and in some cases, right, just had, more protection against racial discrimination.   And so as parents, moved into ethnic communities and, and sought spaces that could protect themselves from racial [00:26:00] discrimination, the young students, right, the one point five generation didn’t have, those same protections. And so many of them were enrolled into public schools, oftentimes schools that were underfunded and oftentimes schools that, uh, were in districts that had young people of color competing for resources.   When it came to that, that 1.5 generation, that journey into United States schools, was, I think, the beginning of understanding how to survive in a place where, a unique form of racial discrimination, a unique form, right, of class identity had to be navigated as they began their journeys in education, a lot of them feeling a lot of pressure to be, strong students in order to, you know, deliver their parents out of poverty. A lot of themes came up. One of the approaches that we took in the ROOTS program was looking at trauma.   We’re not the first program to look at this, but I, I do think that it’s a very important and interesting way to think about, [00:27:00] understanding the stories of people who are incarcerated. You know, oftentimes the, the narrative of people who are incarcerated is that they have committed an act that has traumatized another person, and therefore, right, their own trauma is something that we often either don’t allow, ignore, or outright say, right?   “You don’t deserve your own trauma because of the things that landed you in custody.” And so I think one of the projects that we really wanted to look at was to help people kind of, like, name their trauma, explore it, and, right, heal from it. And so when we thought about, the activities and the curriculum design, you know, we had people kind of, share stories of immigration, share stories of how, their parents came to name them, stuff like that.   And, you know, one humongous theme that came out in the ROOTS program was this idea of self-hatred and how much being in, right, the United States and being in places where you experience discrimination and you experience poverty led to really, really low concepts of [00:28:00] self and, , really resulted in, people, literally writing, right, reflections, saying things like, “I hated myself.   I hated how I looked,” right? “I hated my name.” Those are some of the themes that kind of were fleshed out as we explored the ROOTS program. And we wanted to take a look at, How that trauma not only would h-help people kind of understand their own trajectories more, but how that trauma could also be translated into, right, a more institutional form of advocacy for themselves and understanding how to do things like describe and explain, right, and be introspective about the things in their youth that led to, right, their incarceration.   Because one of the things we also noticed was that people were struggling to tell stories about their families because they didn’t wanna bring shame, they didn’t want to blame their families. And so, a lot of our 1.5 generation folks struggled with being able to tell a story to a parole board that kind of held their freedom in their hands.   And so being [00:29:00] able to have people tell their stories, right, to engage, right, some of the things that they experienced as traumatic, help them heal from those things, but also name them, , through ethnic studies concepts, through, history and through culture, was in a lot of ways, very freeing.   I think I’d be remiss to not mention that, you know, when we did programming inside ROOTS, there was a very, very, I think collective agreed upon, workshop that people inside wanted to do, and it was a workshop about gangs. Not just the criminalization of gangs and how gangs have become criminalized into the ’90s, into the 2000s, but I think, incarcerated people, were really advocating around things like gang prevention. And so a lot of stories came out around, like, why people join gangs in the first place and, , it’s not a brand-new story at all, but it was something that they wanted to explore and they were really, I think, very adamant about exploring among themselves.   And, you know, I think if you talk to incarcerated people, one of the things that they’re so passionate about is [00:30:00] making sure their stories reach young people, which has also inspired me to go into juvenile hall to do a lot of work. But, one of the things that they wanted to develop, I think conceptually, was the idea of the migration to school-to-gang pipeline.   And, you know, whether or not the gang itself, should be conceptualized as, right, a protective, mechanism against racism, against bullying, against harassment, against exploitation. I mean, those are all things that we know, young people are looking for, as they join gangs, especially those that are immigrating from Southeast Asia or even, right, Latin America.   I think the folks inside were really, really adamant about making that connection and understanding that, not only their participation in gangs, but the criminalization of the gangs through that participation was one of the pathways that led them to places like juvenile hall, the California Youth Authority, the Division of Juvenile Justice.   I think the folks inside would, um, say that they need to be accountable to you know, the decisions that [00:31:00] they made and they wish that they were stronger about not making decisions to do things like join, criminal-based organizations. But, I think that there is a reality that, you know, there are a lot of social forces that, drove, that type of youth behavior.   And so, when we were in San Quentin, I think a lot of the folks were like, we need to improve this idea by, you know, understanding that, part of our journey has been, as 1.5 generation young people is , our responses to our trauma, our responses to racism, our responses to, disconnects between us and our families, particularly our parents, right, led us through a path, that was laden with policies that were designed to punish us.   You know, I think something that’s really important that that I would wanna mention is, you know, the apparatuses that were designed to control and to rehabilitate and to correct youth, those apparatuses have been abolished because they didn’t work.   And so when I think about the 1.5 generation that immigrated to the United States during a time of [00:32:00] heavy, heavy juvenile punishment, had they immigrated today, right, and, these systems not existing, you know, would they have done a significant time in state prison? You know, I don’t know.   Would they been criminally adjudicated as adults? I don’t know. And so I think that when we think about, you know, Asian Americans and Southeast Asians and Pacific Islanders that are coming to the United States at a very specific time, specifically those guys we worked with in ROOTS, you know, history was just not on their side, and that’s not something that individuals can control.   And so when we think about the situations that we’re put in, I reflect on my own life about, you know, looking at people that look like me that were the same age as me and, just weren’t born in the United States and had privileges like I did. You know, I think those are some of the things that, I would ask the community to reflect upon.   That, you know, we’re looking at, such a traumatic and punished time in California and U.S. history to really kind of take, a broader approach and to be able to, you know, deconstruct some of the things that have happened to help understand the lives of people who, you know, are in ICE detention today   Michelle MiJung Kim: [00:33:00] That was Roger Viet Chung, faculty in Laney College’s Department of Ethnic Studies and founder of Restoring Our Communities. This is APEX Express. We’ll return after a short break. [00:34:00]   NC (pseudonym): We were refugees. It was because of the, the war, the secret war in Laos, I guess.   Michelle MiJung Kim: This is NC. He grew up in California after his parents’ harrowing escape from war and persecution in Laos. He was incarcerated for 24 years as a result of a conviction when he was a young person. He earned parole last year in [00:35:00] 2025.   NC (pseudonym): You know, I don’t know for sure, but I’m just going off what people say and what they tell me is because- we were refugees, and we were hunted, and, so we fled, and crossed the river into Thailand.   And from Thailand we were, um, we were sent to the US. That’s it.   When my, when I came here, my dad says, ” Well, you gotta learn everything here, know the language and everything, because this is your country now.   You’re gonna live here.” So that’s, that’s what he told me.   Things were tough because my parents don’t know nothing about this country, so they don’t, You know, it’s help was very, I would say, I think the best word I can use is help was very narrow, because we had, like, an…   I had, like, an uncle who knew the language, and they would help my, dad and my mom. And then, um, my dad actually went to a vocational training school to learn how to do auto body, This was in when we were in, in Long Beach, but they [00:36:00] came over to, uh, Stockton to open up a, um, garage, you to fix cars and do auto body. Growing up it was just hard because, you know, we were, uh, always poor and we didn’t know how to adjust to the c- you know, the community.   America is, like, totally different, ’cause we go to school and then we read, write, speak English, and then we don’t, we don’t do none of that inside the house. So there’s kind of that culture clash where, you know, the parents wanna teach you something and then you go to school and you learn something else, and then you’re s- you struggle with your, um, you know, everyday life because, those are two different things   I was basically working while I was in prison, taking a lot of self-help classes and, um, earning certifications and trying to better myself, um, learning job skills. So when I, parole, I can, become a productive member of society. So while I was in, also incarcerated, I was taking college courses, to try to, attain a [00:37:00] AA degree.   So I was doing a lot of that stuff while I was in prison programming. My plan was… when I got out, as far as for work I would just like any job will do, just as long as I got work, any job will do.   But the goal was to continue my education, get my, uh, degree in, um, sociology, try to to open up a, a place and to be, um, LCSW certified, a licensed clinical social worker so I can help people, just like how, um, when I was, um, incarcerated, I was talking to, um, an LCSW so they can like, help you when you get back from this environment to the streets to help you adjust. First of all, it’s helping people, and a lot of people, when you come out and get out, there’s really nothing, like nobody’s… the way I see it is, like- I don’t see a lot of help, you know?   I don’t see a lot of help or any [00:38:00] help, in my community that I’m at. I figured that, you know what? More help or help is always good, and a lot of times people… While, while I was in, um, incarcerated, you know, incarceration does affect you, it, in a way, institutionalizes you and makes you think a certain way, act a certain way, be a certain way, and when you come out, you have to, like, try to adjust to, you know, the norms of, outside living.   When I was talking to my, um, social worker, she was giving me a lot of those pointers. So I was thinking, like, “Okay, you know what? This is something I could do.” I could help, you know, like, a youth who’s been incarcerated or young people coming out or anybody of any ages from anywhere that has, um, cultural issues, You know, like, if they’re coming from a different country and they’re, they’re coming to the US and they’re having, like, cultural issues. it’s just about transitioning from one place to another place.” when I paroled from prison and they told me that, I have a ICE hold, an immigration hold. And [00:39:00] then I wasn’t sure, like, what that was, if it’s happening or not. And then when they paroled me, uh, immigration came and picked me up and took me to a detention facility.    ICE came and picked me up at the prison and, um, I went to a detention facility in Bakersfield called Mesa Verde   Michelle MiJung Kim: We’re gonna come back to NC and what he experienced at Mesa Verde on the next episode, and what happened after he was deported to Laos just four months ago. Right now, I want to introduce you to another community member, Pam. Pam also grew up in California. She was incarcerated for 16 years. Three years ago, she was detained by ICE and then deported to Cambodia   Pam (pseudonym): [00:40:00] So I’m gonna start it off when the day I find out that, um, I probably get deported in 2000… yeah, 2012. ICE came and see me, and they say, ” Well, we got you on record that, you know, you’re on a list that you’re gonna get deported when you parole.” So if I have any kind, like American citizen to prove that, you know, I can’t parole, and this and that.   I was like, “Okay.” I really didn’t pay attention. My mind was more like stuck. On that day, my mind was more like, “Wait, my attorney told me I’m not ever gonna get deported,” and it just, my mind is like wondering off, like, why is this happening now? So other than that, I started doing research. I just signed the paper.   I didn’t even hear exactly what they told me because I, my mind’s already like blow. So I just signed the paper. Didn’t even know what I’m signing, so I just signed the paper like so they can leave me alone. I just [00:41:00] need to process something on my own.   When I finally process, I start doing research and…   But before I start doing research, I call my parent up and told them, “What’s gonna happen?” And they, you know, and my parents tell me, “Just tell them you don’t have a family over there. There’s nobody over there that could support you, take care of you. You’ve been, uh, here in America all your life. There’s nobody.   Nobody. So why they came and… why did someone send it to you, send you over there, and since you already did your time?” So it’s some kinda- mixed feeling. It’s a lot of mixed feeling as I can see there’s a lot of hurt inside my family. I can see what they go through, and then I was like, “Okay, now just too much.”   So after I talk to my parent and then see how they feel about it, and I understand, and I do feel them, too.   And I do understand, and, um, ‘ cause I’ve never been really separate from my family that long until I got [00:42:00] locked up. So it’s harder difficulty than anything. I don’t even move away from my mom that far.   I live across the street. So it’s hard for me to see that, I’m really, like, can’t see my mom ever again. I started doing research for years and years and still, hoping that I could fight and why I’m in prison, but people keep on telling me, “You can’t fight your case until you get through, um, the ICE detainer, and that’s how you fight your case.”   And it’s like, eh, I need to find a… You know, I started doing more research on the law library about ICE and, you know, about deportation, everything about the law. I did all that, but it’s nothing that really helped me unless it’s something against my life. So and I did more research about, like anything They say the only way you could get away from it is, like, something affects your life, something that danger you. It’s like, it mean life or death. [00:43:00] But I even do research on that. They say if they stop the war in Cambodian… So it was hard. It was just a lot. It was just a lot of paperwork that I would have to go through and try to do the research and find out.   So I started talking to more about with my family about that, and then my dad say, “You know, I can see this is really stressing you out, and I can see that you’re looking through a lot of stuff that don’t help you to get out. But we still have hope that you’re gonna come home to us.”   Michelle MiJung Kim:  Every person who shared their story with us talked about the family members and friends who supported them through these traumatic experiences, those who have stood with them in the darkest of times. Those relationships are what keeps people going, and it’s no different for the person you’re about to hear from, T.   T served his time in prison many years ago. After he got out of prison, he led a [00:44:00] full life. He got married, became a father, and grew in his career as a superintendent of a welding business, including jobs for the US Navy. And then one day, everything changed.   T (pseudonym): You know, I, I’d been reporting, uh, as scheduled, to the, you know, the ICE agent e- every, you know, I start out once a month, once every three months, once every six months, once every year.   And I, I, I’ve been reporting perfectly how they want. And then one day, you know, I, I came home and I went look at, check my mail and, there’s a, a mail from them. So I opened the mail up and it tells me, the mail tells me they’re gonna detain me. They give me a date to be there, and they say they’re gonna detain me.   You know, I, and my, my heart just sank, you know. When I saw that letter- Mm … I’m like, “Oh my God.” And you know, I, I, it broke me down right there, standing over there by the mailbox. And then I told my wife and, , we [00:45:00] both, sat and, you know, did a little, a little crying.   And it’s just like depressed knowing that they can, uh, detain me, that scheduled date that they gave me, yeah, it, it, it was tough. It’s like a, a little… I think they gave us like a, a month or something. No, three weeks, half a month, something like that. it, it, it was tough ’cause I, I, me, me and my wife and my two daughter we, you know, we have family.   They, they okay, you know. yeah, I, I’ve checked in and, uh, they, they, they did detain me and, uh, of course my wife’s all crying and, you know, my daughter, my, both my daughters young at that time. They’re still young. They don’t know what, what happened, you know. They asked my wife, “Hey, where’s Dad?”   And you know, my, my wife didn’t tell them what happened yet because they didn’t, my wife didn’t want them to, you know, worry. So my wife just told them, “Oh, you know, uh, your dad went to work. Maybe he’ll be gone maybe a month or so.” She just don’t want them to feel bad.   But yeah, my wife went through some stuff and trying to figure things out while I was in the detention center. and uh, [00:46:00] yeah, I got interview and got deported. and my wife, she was struggling at that time. She didn’t work either because she’s the, you know, she stayed home as a housewife, take the kids to school and stuff like that.   Michelle MiJung Kim: T’s wife and daughter are now with him in Cambodia. He’s currently serving as a staff member at New Light Wellness in Phnom Penh providing mental health and healing services to other people and families who are deported and separated   T (pseudonym): Yes. To me it’s very important, to have someone to talk to ’cause when you’re deported, uh, you, you already broken. you feel like you’re a broken person, and, and sometime you don’t know who to talk to because you’re at a new, new place.   You don’t really know no one, you know? And, uh, it, it, it’s heartbreaking you trying to, uh, find someone to talk to. You, you feel like you’re alone.   But at New Light, [00:47:00] we provide all that. You need someone to talk to, here. We, we, here you could pick one of our team here to talk to. You can go to the facility that we have over there and just talk to someone and just relax over there and just, you know, we, we have, always have someone there to help, talk about anything you want, to guide to bring closure, that, that’s the thing, uh, about our team here.   We wanna make sure we have all that, everything Cause we understand, we understand, uh, being deported need someone to talk to, because that’s what I, I did when, uh, the first couple years when I got deported here and I, I was so stressed out, and I don’t know who to turn to, where to go.   Luckily, I found New Light, and I’m so glad, and I’m still with them now.   Deportation to me, I feel it is very cruel. It breaks families apart, and then it’ll change the life and future of, your children. You know, it, it… Deportation, it, it’s just a sad [00:48:00] word, it’s just a sad word. It, it’s just… It’s like pain. It’s a lot of pain, that word deportation.   It’s a lot of pain. I mean, I, I… It, it’s just… To me, it’s just a lot of pain. It is just getting ripped off from your family, and affect everyone. It affect, you know, your brother and sister, your cousin, your niece, your nephew. You know, that’s how, that’s how I, I sees it,   Roger Viet Chung: Yeah, I think it’s, um You know, I, I think it’s important to, understand that, um, you know, deportation, isn’t something that existed, since 1776, right?   Michelle MiJung Kim: That familiar voice is Roger, who you heard from earlier. Here’s what he thinks about previously incarcerated people getting deported despite having already served their time.   Roger Viet Chung: And so I think when we kinda think about the logics of a [00:49:00] person who is serving a sentence and is being released by even authorities around in the carceral state and determining that they’re not a threat to society, that they’re no longer harmful to society, that they’ve done their rehabilitation in order to continue to contribute to, right, the nation and to their families and their communities, I think we have a very contradictory message where, you know, you actually have, a, a carceral apparatus naming a person as no longer a harm to society, but then, right, being deported.   And so when we think about these stories and, you know, I remember talking to a life term prisoner who has children who were born in the United States. And, he’s going up to the parole board, and he has, an ICE hold. He has, you know, a mandatory deportation because of his conviction. He’s asking the questions to himself, you know, “What do I do? do I fight to be released from prison? If that’s the case, I might get taken to ICE custody right away and, [00:50:00] get my travel documents prepared to be deported. Or do I stay in prison so that my family can continue to see me in the United States, right?   And maybe, I don’t do the types of things that are gonna win me my freedom in front of a parole board.” And I think those are the types of contradictions in the stories that I think illuminate the contradictions and, right, like, the problems with the way that we approach, deportation today.   There’s, the idea of deportation, we often, I think because it’s related to law, oftentimes, right, you know, our communities, see that as an objective or neutral phenomenon, that’s always been that way. And so I think, when we try to get folks to kinda understand the ways that deportation and, you know, immigration policy, has been shaped, one of the things that I’ll ask students, I remember being inside San Quentin, and I, I ask this of my Laney students all the time, you know, I ask them, “When was Immigration and Customs Enforcement founded?”, “What year was like the birth of what we understand now as ICE?” And, [00:51:00] students will guess, they’ll guess, they’ll guess, and maybe they’ll look it up online, and they’ll say, ” Oh, Roger, it’s 2001.” Then I’ll ask people, “Who’s older, you or ICE?”   And most of the time, the people that I ask are older than ICE. And so I think one of the ways that we kind of approach this is, you know, by understanding that what’s happening now is a, a very new and contemporary phenomenon immigration in its most brutal form, right? Or deportation in its most brutal form.   And I ask people, right, you know, “What was ICE called before it was called ICE?” There was an, a, an organization that existed before. And, you know, people will struggle a little bit, and then, you know, I’ll say the initials, uh, INS. And then people will say, “What does that stand for?” INS stands for, uh, Immigration Naturalization Services.   And so you have this really significant institutional difference, just in the name itself around how a migrant is being treated and perceived. Right? On the one hand, right, you have enforcement through [00:52:00] ICE. But for the most part, right, immigration policy in the United States was not ICE. It was Naturalization Services, right?   It was about welcoming people to come to the United States, contribute, be taxpayers, right? And, become citizens, become naturalized. And so I think that’s one of the ways that we begin thinking about how to deconstruct the idea that deportation is just a matter of law, it’s a neutral idea, and that it’s always existed in the form that it has.   And, you know, we know that the law that really is driving Asian American deportation or a- and other immigrant-based deportation today is a law that was designed in 1996. And so- The way that we see, right, immigration today is really kind of like a parcel, a very small piece of immigration history and deportation history for that matter in the United States.   And I think that’s one way that I think helps people understand that you know, what we’re seeing now is, a phenomenon that doesn’t have to be what it is.   I’m lucky enough to be able to be [00:53:00] part of a post-secondary system that is, you know, one of the largest in the world and one of the most welcoming in the world.   I feel like part of my passion or my drive to keep going is I feel like there are some things that are still very much unexplored around this concept of re-entry. When I was in juvenile hall a couple of years ago, I met a young person who told me that he didn’t have a good relationship with his dad.   His dad wasn’t in his life. His dad has been in and out of prison and learned mostly about his dad through his sister, but began reconnecting with him a little bit. this young person had, a pretty significant conviction inside the juvenile hall which, like I mentioned earlier, which had it happened 10, 15 years ago, he would be in the California Youth Authority.   And, you know, he was telling me about his dad and, you know, there were so many things that felt like I knew him. He told me the job that his dad had, which was a very unique job [00:54:00] that is not very common. And I wrote who I thought his dad was on a piece of paper and I showed it to him and he said, “Yes, that’s my dad.”   And so his dad, came to Laney College, um, joined the machining program after years in prison and got you know, a living wage job, in the steel industry, was able to buy a home and he was able to put his daughter through graduate school. but he never mentioned a son to me. And I left the hall that day and, I called him walking to my car and I said, “Hey, like, um, I think I met your son.   I didn’t know you had one.” And he said, “Yeah, that’s still a shameful part of my life that I’m, still trying to figure out.” And so I, I think that there’s something that we’re missing still. I think, you know, when in San Quentin we talked about, intergenerational trauma and the trauma that you can inherit from your parents and your parents’ parents, and I think there’s something here where, you know, we, we can engage both generations at [00:55:00] once to really kind of figure out some of this healing.   I feel like there’s still something that, we as a team as a family and as a community are on the verge of understanding a little bit better and breaking those cycles.   Michelle MiJung Kim: I can’t stop thinking about what T said about the word deportation. It’s cruel. It’s a painful word. It’s a sad word that rips you off from your family. Many of our listeners are here because you believe a different world is possible, one that replaces isolation with kinship, trauma with repair, and loss with transformation.   You want a future full of families together and safe. That’s the kind of future we at My Family want, too. Each story we share is not only a reminder about the violent systems that harm so many communities, but it’s also a reminder of how much each of us is [00:56:00] needed in this fight for a more just and liberatory future.   There is so much pain and trauma in each person’s story, there’s also so much strength, resilience, and a steadfast belief in community and hope. I’m taking a deep breath as I reflect on these stories, and I invite you to do the same.   And if you’re impacted by mass deportation and detention, there are organizations and advocates who can help you, from mental health and wellness to legal help and family support. In Northern California, where we are based, we encourage you to reach out to the Asian Prisoner Support Committee, the Center for Empowering Refugees and Immigrants, and New Light Wellness.   You’ll [00:57:00] find links to these organizations in the show notes at kpfa.org/programs/APEX-express. The music in today’s program is by Cambodian Australian singer and songwriter Satiya. We’ll include links to his songs in the show notes, too.   We hope you’ll join us for episodes two and three of My Family, where we’ll deep dive into what happens when our family and neighbors are detained, and what happens when they are forced to move to a country they’ve never known. Thank you for joining, and we’ll see you next time on My Family.   I’m your host, Michelle Mijung Kim, and this podcast is brought to you by APEX Express and the Asian Prisoner Support Committee. APEX Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam.   Have a great night.   [00:58:00]    The post APEX Express – 8.20.26 – My Family Ep. 1 appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 8.13.26 – Bayanihan in Ballhalla 13.08.2026 59мин

    A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Hosts Miko Lee & Guest Host Mia Nakano celebrate Bayanihan in Ballhalla. Bayanihan is a core Filipino cultural value of community unity, and Balhalla is the home arena of the Golden State Valkyries. Apex Express was invited to join Filipino Heritage Night at the Valkyries game. We speak with the community behind this cultural celebration. That includes Al Perez, artists Venazir Martinez and Kristian Kabuay, and coach Carolyn Sideco about the history of Philippines and basketball. Links for more information: More information on our guests: Golden State Valkyries Al Perez, President of the Filipino American Arts Exposition Artist Venazir Martinez DJ P-LO Cultural Practitioner Kristian Kabuay Carolyn Sideco Coaching Kapwa Raquel Redondiez SOMA Pilpinas Shows that Coach Sideco recommended to us: Rafe Bartholemew’s Hoop Nation and Cassidy Hubbarth’s podcast Hoops Paradise   Show Transcript: [00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express. [00:01:13] Miko Lee: Welcome to Apex Express. I’m your host, Miko Lee, and tonight is Bayanihan in Ballhalla. Bayanihan is a core Filipino cultural value of community unity, and Balhalla is the home arena of the Golden State Valkyries. Apex Express was invited to join Filipino Heritage Night at the Valkyries game. Tonight, please join me and my guest host, Mia Nakano, as we speak with the community behind this cultural celebration. That includes Al Perez, artists Venazir Martinez and Kristian Kabuay, and coach Carolyn Sideco about the history of Philippines and basketball. Join us. Today I have the honor of having my bestie with me who’s gonna co-host Welcome to Apex, Mia Nakano.  [00:01:59] Mia Nakano: Hi, Miko. Thank you for having me.  [00:02:01] Miko Lee: I was invited to a Valkyries game, and I said, “Oh, my gosh, I need somebody with me that can speak basketball.” And so I thought of you.  [00:02:10] Mia Nakano: And here we are. And the Valkyries do put on a show. That’s one of the things that makes them so great.  [00:02:15] Miko Lee: Yeah, it was super fun. It was Filipino Heritage Night, and so we got a chance to talk with the different artists that are there, what is the night about, what’s the cultural celebration. What were some of the things that stood out to you?  [00:02:28] Mia Nakano: I think that it really got to the roots of, one, what a great sports city San Francisco and then just the broader Bay Area is, and two, the deep connections to the Filipino community that exists within the Bay Area. When you look at how historically the Warriors really came up and the fan shots from when they were at Oracle Arena, the huge fan base that was there initially was the Filipino community. To see that translate in a very different way as the Valkyries are coming up in the WNBA as this incredible team, second year, on their way to probably making the playoffs for the second year in a row, bringing that community back, particularly with all the connections of the artists, the activations, and even the food that they have in Chase Arena brings it full circle. [00:03:26] Miko Lee: Having Natalie Nakase as the coach there is so powerful and important representation for Asian Americans as well. The other thing that stood out to me was I did not know there was this history of basketball in the Philippines, and then to talk to the different guests on our show tonight about what that history represents, where it comes from, the connection to colonization, and then also how it’s really developed into its own cultural phenomena in the Philippines. [00:03:55] Mia Nakano: I played basketball- All throughout junior high and high school and was very immersed in it in Southern California, but I had no idea that basketball was the national sport of the Philippines. After we came back from the game, I did a little a bit of a deep dive, and it was really wonderful to see that it actually started in the Philippines as a women’s sport? And it was making sports more accessible to folks, and also very clearly connected to,, roots of colonization and religion. But to still have that anchor and connection there, and then this interesting juxtaposition where right now there has still never been a Filipina player in the WNBA. There are folks who people really thought were almost gonna make it. So there’s still that one last phase that they need to break into this sport that is their national sport, but in the United States they’re not quite there yet in terms of representation.  [00:04:55] Miko Lee: And talking with Coach Caroline, which people can hear later in the episode, about that history and how it was intended to be this women’s sport in the Philippines because it was easier. They thought they’d give it to the women to play. But the men were watching going like, “Oh, this looks fun. This looks more fun than baseball. So it really just took off. I love that transition for that it went and across the country. A few of our guests talked about tenement basketball courts. It’s just so wildly different from this country.  [00:05:25] Mia Nakano: I think that that is contextually just how sports are played in a lot of different countries in the world where they don’t have access. When you think about people playing football, right, like soccer, in different areas where they are playing barefoot. They are playing in dirt or, like, fields that are not necessarily fields. I think that in the context of playing basketball differently in the Philippines versus the United States or even in European leagues, when the United States goes to play in the Olympics, even though you have the USA women’s team, USA men’s teams who are supposed to be the best of the best in the world, the way that the game is played at that particular level and arena is quite different. And so they all have to adjust to the physicality, to how calls are called just slightly differently. With smaller players in the WNBA what I find really incredible, and this is what Carolyn talks about a little bit, is like the layup packages? When you get close to the rim, you don’t have a Filipino who just goes up and makes a regular layup. They do it with flair, right? There’s a part of that maybe is a little bit of showmanship, but also it’s a part of trying to sneak your way around bigger players so that you can get the basket. And anybody that you play against, even in a league that is familiar to you, you’re gonna have to change your game up, and play to your strength, and also just know what you can’t do in the game, and go to another person who has more of those strengths  [00:07:03] Miko Lee: One of the other things that stood out to me in talking with one of the artists, Christian, who was there in the outside, in the cultural area, and he was doing, pre-Filipino writing with folks, and we’ll interview him later in the episode. He was saying how he does this activity at a lot of different games, but it was very different. That was the first time at the Valkyries, and he said the crowd was so different, that it felt like back in the day. It felt like community. There weren’t tech bros. You feel like it, The audience was way more women, As someone that goes to Warriors’ and Valkyries’ games, do you notice a difference in the audience?    [00:07:41] Mia Nakano: The first Valkyries game that I had the opportunity to go to last year was their Pride Night, and that is the game that my wife and I always go to for the Warriors. It’s a special feeling there. I noticed there was a whole parking lot area for strollers on different levels. There was such great energy, and people just talking about the game, people cheering or rooting for players on the other team. There was not a lot of negative energy going around. When Christian mentions, the tech bro energy, the people rolling around with Patagonia shirts, and sweatshirts, that is so true. You truly feel this family environment that’s also very queer friendly. There’s so many folks of color, and they’re not just there because the team’s winning, because last year we didn’t know if the team was gonna win or not. They were just showing up. The Valkyries have really created such a strong culture that is team based. That’s what you see with the Valkyries, but I also think that that’s a testament to the coach, to the players, who really trust in one another, and to the community that we have in the Bay Area. I think even the players did not understand when they came here what they were stepping into, and they talk about talking to other players on opposing teams who are like, “Is it always like this? Is it every night?” They’re like, “Every single night, this is how our fans are, and we love it.”  [00:09:14] Miko Lee: So it’s in different WNBA hometowns it’s not like that? [00:09:18] Mia Nakano: Absolutely not. The Valkyries have sold out every single game from day one. They are the first WNBA team, and I think the first women’s professional sports team, to reach $100 billion in valuation. then you see other teams, like the Atlantic Dream, who are playing in arenas of 3,500, or the Dallas Wings, who are playing in much smaller arenas, even though they have all these franchise players like Angel Reese and Paige Bueckers and AZ Fudd. The Dallas Wings are actually moving to the same arena that the Mavericks are gonna play in next year. It’s an interesting juxtaposition given where the context of our world is at, who’s in office right now, the battles that we’re having to fight to keep women’s rights, queer rights, trans rights in the forefront and not have them stripped away. Yet on the other side of this, we have this huge, meteoric rise of women’s sports, and it’s not just basketball. It’s baseball. It’s hockey. It’s all these different leagues that are starting to emerge and have huge fan bases where you can watch women’s professional sports all year round. They’re nationally televised games. [00:10:31] Miko Lee: Thank you for the history lesson and current events of women’s sports. I love it. One of the other things that was really special for this Filipino heritage night was the halftime show where they had DJ P-Lo playing. And then they brought onto the court, the director of SOMA Pilipinas, Raquel Redondiez, and she runs San Francisco’s Filipino Cultural Heritage District. She got her name on a Valkyries jersey, and was announced in the halftime moment as a big show. [00:11:05] Mia Nakano: I had a conversation with her said, ” the work that you are doing, particularly in this moment, bringing together the artists, the culture of Filipinos and Filipino history is so critical right now because so many of our communities, cultures, and stories are getting erased, that we are the culture bearers and culture keepers, and so thank you for doing that work.” [00:11:31] Miko Lee: SOMA Pilipinas, for those that don’t know, was established as a Filipino cultural heritage district in 2016 and was one of the first in the state designated as an arts district by California Arts Council in 2017. So they do so much great work, they host great things from the, United States of Asian America Festival every year. Self-defense workshops for women. I’ve taken those in Kapwa Gardens that were amazing. They do mental health services for Filipino folks and provided groceries and COVID education and, Filipino language training, and then artists, as you were saying. They pulled together all these different folks, for this wonderful night to introduce a sense of heritage and a sense of pride that was really powerful. [00:12:19] Mia Nakano: , It’s a really lovely connection back to the Filipinos banding together with Chinese American folks in Chinatown that really helped create the broader Asian American movement and what that word and power even means. [00:12:38] Miko Lee: From the I-Hotel to today [00:12:40] Mia Nakano: exactly, and all of that being really anchored and rooted in San Francisco, as well as everything that Larry Itliong did with union organizing that I think has just recently started to get recognized in the broader social justice movement.  [00:12:58] Miko Lee: I’ll put links to past shows that we’ve done on the I-Hotel, on Larry Itliong, because folks, if they don’t know about either of those movement le- leaders and huge moments in our Asian American history, they should. It’s powerful part of our labor and housing rights history. Were there other things that stood out to you at this Valkyries game? [00:13:20] Mia Nakano: I know that this is probably not gonna be a surprise to you, but the fact that we honestly just got to go behind the scenes and see the inner workings of what the Valkyries, the tunnels and getting lost and trying to figure out where we’re going. [00:13:34] Miko Lee: It was a maze down there, by the way. It was like, which direction? Go to this press room. No, this press room. This place. It was very much kind of, in theater-wise, it’s like going backstage and seeing how the tech is done.  [00:13:46] Mia Nakano: The thing that was the most exciting about this unique experience was being able to see Natalie Nakase talk after the game, and the snippet in here is really incredible because it shed light into not just who she is as a coach and how she approached the game, but her investment in people, and the importance of seeing people for their full selves, and the importance of the whole WNBA as a league, as a business. They have a lot of money and power, so who are we gonna lift up? It’s a always a very intentional choice of what is happening at Chase Arena, at the Valkyries nights, these heritage nights that really uplift so many wonderful communities that are doing incredible work.  [00:14:36] Miko Lee: We’re gonna get a chance to do an interview with Coach Natalie in a different episode, so stay tuned for that. Is there anything else that you would like to share with our audience?  [00:14:45] Mia Nakano: Go see a Valkyries game. Go to Balhalla. It will change your life.  [00:14:50] Miko Lee: Experience Balhalla. Okay. Thank you for joining me, and hopefully you’ll join me back when we do an interview with Coach Natalie too.  [00:14:59] Mia Nakano: Oh, absolutely.  [00:15:00] Miko Lee: To frame the conversation, we start with Valkyries coach Natalie Nakase, the first Asian American woman to coach a WNBA team. Last year, she was named WNBA Coach of the Year, and at the post-game presser, a reporter asked her, “Tonight is Filipino National Heritage Night, so can you talk a little bit about what it means for fans to be seen around the league?” This is her response. [00:15:25] Natalie Nakase: Yeah. It’s huge. I love the fact that we can celebrate and acknowledge different cultures. I’m really big on that. I think it gives people almost like a superpower or a confidence for, you know, the day to be recognized like that and to be celebrated for everything that their, their culture brings. it also, I think, educates people about different cultures. And so I love the fact that we’re super intentional about that because I think we have to do that more than not. And, it’s exciting. I think this world needs more celebration. I think this world needs more love, more care, especially when some people are not seen as much. [00:16:01] Miko Lee: In the very loud outdoor Chase Arena area, we spoke with several of the folks involved in Filipino Heritage Night at the Valkyries. Please note that the sound quality is due to the nature of being outside a really excited fan base at the game. First off, listen in as we hear from Al Perez, who helped to curate this community celebration. [00:16:23] Al Perez: Hello, my name is Al Perez. I am a community organizer. I’m serving as president of a nonprofit called the Filipino American Arts Exposition, and we partnered with the Valkyries to help curate their cultural activation for Filipino Heritage Night tonight. [00:16:41] Miko Lee: Since the Valkyries are named after women warriors, is there a Filipina version of a woman warrior? [00:16:48] Al Perez: Absolutely. We have one that’s local. Her name is Victoria Manalo Draves. She was the first American woman to win two Olympic golds in the Olympics in nine- 1928. She happens to be Filipina-American. So yeah, she was born and raised here in, in San Francisco Bay Area, so we’re very proud of her to be, to represent us and be the warrior and an inspiration for all of us.  [00:17:11] Miko Lee: Excellent. And since Valhalla or Valhalla is the space that we want to get to, what is the Filipino version of that place you want to see? [00:17:19] Al Perez: Wow. [00:17:20] Miko Lee: That perfect world you wanna get to. [00:17:21] Al Perez: I think for us, we have this tradition called bayanihan. That’s when we help each other towards a common goal. Yes. No matter how Herculean that task is, it’s just coming together to help each other. So it’s not necessarily a destination. It’s more like an attitude of, coming together as a community towards a common goal, towards a cultural pride and community empowerment. [00:17:46] Miko Lee: Great. And tell us what you’re doing here today with all these groups. [00:17:47] Al Perez: So we have an outreach table here because we’re part of the organizing committee to curate tonight’s event. So we actually have an event next weekend called the Pistahan Parade and Festival. It’s the largest Filipino cultural celebration in the country, happening August 8th and 9th at the Yerba Buena Gardens, so please come check us out. There’s a big parade down Market Street on Saturday to kick off the festival weekend, and then the festival’s at the Yerba Buena Gardens, 11 to 5. We’re here to promote that event as well as all our other upcoming events in the fall. We’re also curating the Filipino Heritage Night with the Golden State Warriors, with the Giants, San Jose Sharks, and San Jose Earthquakes. And then one more. October is Filipino American History Month in the country. So we also produce official celebration proclamation by the mayor at City Hall. So we have a reception, we have entertainment, and we light the City Hall building with Philippine flag colors.  [00:18:42] Miko Lee: And when folks are coming out to these Filipino nights, what should they expect? What’s happening?  [00:18:47] Al Perez: Our goal is to be here to be in community, to help showcase our beautiful culture, our traditions. So when these events happen, we usually have, cultural performances, either a pre-game or a halftime. Tonight you’re gonna see, P-Lo, a Filipino rapper and a hip hop singer. Here in the plaza we have some basketball hoops, because basketball is a big thing in the Philippines, our national sport. There’s also, Sarap Shop is a concession inside. They have Filipino food there. Our goal is to get people a little taste of our Filipino culture, so hopefully they’ll be inspired to, to learn more about our community and our culture. [00:19:29] Miko Lee: And what’s your dream for the game tonight?  [00:19:31] Al Perez: Of course, to win, right? Number, yeah, number one, Valkyries to win. And also, I hope that people will come and learn about our culture, and to appreciate it more. Maybe it will inspire them to try some Filipino food, or even come to our Pistahan Festival next weekend. Also Señor Sisig is right here in the plaza. They also do fusion Filipino food. I’m hoping that, by being here, people can get to be a little bit more familiar and curious about Filipino culture and community. We have such a, vibrant and diverse culture, we love to be in community. Our food’s delicious, and entertainment’s fantastic. So come check us out wherever and whenever you can.  [00:20:14] Mia Nakano: I’m wondering if you could talk a little bit about the artists who are here and the community organizations that are here tonight.  [00:20:19] Al Perez: So there’s several of us nonprofit organizations here. Our group’s the Filipino American Arts Exposition, our mission is more about broadening awareness and deepening understanding of Filipino culture and traditions by doing these cultural events. There’s another group here called Young Filipino Professionals Association, or YFPA. They’re more about, , uplifting young entrepreneurs, young career-minded, individuals to help them on their path to being more successful. There’s also SoMa Pilipinas Cultural District is here. That’s a new, relatively new, neighborhood in San Francisco. You know, there’s Chinatown, there’s Japantown, there’s North Beach, so now we also have a Filipino community. It’s called SoMa Pilipinas, they’re also celebrating their 10th anniversary this year as being, designated as a cultural district. There’s also Venazir is a visual artist. She’s doing live art mural here inspired by Filipino culture and the intersection of culture and basketball. So it’s a great way for people to kind of learn about our fine arts, our visual arts, and our he- heritage. Kristian Cabuay is doing script writing of traditional pre-colonial Philippine script. You know, Chinese and Japanese have their own script writing. The Phi- Filipino community also did before we were colonized by Spain. It’s kind of almost forgotten and almost wiped out, so there’s a few people now that’s trying to revive that, that old tradition of writing .. It’s called Baybayin.    [00:21:42] Mia Nakano: Can you talk a little bit about the history or why basketball is the national sport of the Philippines?   [00:21:48] Al Perez: Yeah. It’s interesting. Yeah, why is basketball the national sport? I’m not sure exactly, but I think it has to do when after the Philippines was colonized by Spain, and then it, the country became, a commonwealth of the United States, right? And during that time, a lot of Americans came to the Philippines, to establish educational institutions, and one of them is sports. It just got introduced to us, and somehow it clicked. Everybody loves basketball. No matter where you are in the Philippines, in every little barrio, every little town, there’s always a game happening [00:22:21] Miko Lee: So are people playing in school, like they start in elementary school, or is it more community based?  [00:22:26] Al Perez: I think it’s both. It’s just kinda grow, ingrown when you’re just a kid growing up in your community. There’s always basketball around you, surrounded by basketball. And then of course in more, elementary, high school, it became more teams dynamic, and you got competitions , intramural games. Even between little neighborhoods and little towns, they also have competitions. It’s really a big deal. In fact, they love NBA. All the American basketball players are so popular. Everybody knows who they are. [00:22:54] Miko Lee: Al mentioned artist Venazir Martinez, and we pulled her away from the beautiful mural she was creating to talk with us. Again, this is outside, so the sound is quite loud. Venazir is a muralist and a visual anthropreneur. She weaves a tapestry of narratives that explore the connections between human traditions and the ever-changing landscapes that shape them. Listen as she tells us about her work and how she utilizes a symbolic red thread [00:23:25] Venazir Martinez: I’m Venazir Martinez. I am a muralist and a visual entrepreneur, and I am invited to create a live painting for the Golden State Valkyries. [00:23:36] Miko Lee: What has inspired you to create this work of art? [00:23:39] Venazir Martinez: So first and foremost, of course, women empowerment, and we have a lot of very talented Filipino Americans who play basketball. In the Philippines, because I grew up in the Philippines, basketball is such a huge deal. Everywhere in the most promote areas in the Philippines, basketball is their way of enjoying themselves and just pretty much having a time of their life. Basketball tenements are everywhere in the most remote areas in the Philippines. There’s this concept of Filipino resiliency that I wanted to incorporate in my work, there are basketball hoops that is made out of wood scraps and like discarded metals. I wanted to highlight that part of Philippine ingenuity. That’s why I’m here is to just shed light on that beautiful concept of Filipino ingenuity that we have.  [00:24:40] Miko Lee: I love that. Thank you for sharing. Can you break down what a basketball tenement is?  [00:24:44] Venazir Martinez: Oh, basketball tenement. So tenement courts, these are,.. How do I say this? In America, there’s basketball courts that is, like, roofed. Okay. With a roof, and-  [00:24:54] Miko Lee: Like in a gymnasium.  [00:24:56] Venazir Martinez: In a gymnasium, yes. But in the Philippines, anywhere can be a basketball tenement court. They’ll just put up a basketball hoop in a pole, like an electricity pole, and they can already play basketball in that area. [00:25:12] Miko Lee: So their court’s just made up anywhere. Yeah. Anywhere in the community.  [00:25:14] Venazir Martinez: Anywhere in the community, in the most remote areas in the Philippines, they do that all the time. I grew up in the Philippines, so, it’s that really is an immersive experience of having to see basketball really change lives for young people in our community. [00:25:32] Miko Lee: So we’re at a WNBA game, and I’m wondering if there was a woman basketball player that you looked up to when you were growing up.  [00:25:39] Venazir Martinez: Growing up, my dad plays basketball. That’s the only experience I know that, remembering what basketball is like. ‘Cause I’m mostly in martial arts. But here I am trying to experience a different, like, more empowering way of sports. And it’s when I came to America that I experienced this kind of really, it’s kind of empowering.  [00:26:01] Miko Lee: And since the Valkyries are women warriors, is there a Filipina equivalent of the woman warrior? Is there a Filipina equivalent of a woman warrior? [00:26:01] Venazir Martinez: There’s a lot. There’s a lot of very empowering Filipina. First and foremost, it’s the Filipina community leaders that I know of in the Bay Area. They are my women warriors. They helped me from the ground up. They created a home for me. They, you know, so they welcomed me. The filipina community in the Bay Area welcomed me. They’re all women.  [00:26:31] Miko Lee: Who would you say are some of those folks, some of those women?  [00:26:34] Venazir Martinez: Sonia Villarin, she wears so many hats. She’s president of Filipina Food Movement, founder of summer camp in the University of the Philippines Alumni Association in San Francisco. She was the, senior vice president for Bank of America Global Leasing, and she welcomed her home to me and, pretty much, helped me establish my life here as an artist. So those are my women warriors. [00:27:00] Miko Lee: And when people see your beautiful work, what do you want them to walk away with feeling? [00:27:05] Venazir Martinez: I want them to take a second look again in my work, because these, my work pretty much talks about Filipino immigrants, and immigration at large, and pretty much our contributions and the harvested hopes that we have contributed in this cultural landscape,  [00:27:28] Miko Lee: this show is a pop-up tonight, so where can folks find out more about your work or see your work in the community? [00:27:34] Venazir Martinez: I have a huge, huge mural, 2,500 square feet mural in 5th and Folsom in San Francisco, downtown San Francisco in SoMa. It’s called Ani, meaning to harvest. There’s one in downtown Santa Cruz. There is one in Yuba City. There are multiple murals in Michigan, in New York, mostly in Queens. It’s pretty much everywhere, but if you follow the red thread, which is my signature, my artist signature, you’ll know that it’s my work.  [00:28:08] Miko Lee: Thank you so much. Thank you so very much. Appreciate you taking the time. Another artist presenting their work was Kristian Kabuay working on pre-Philippines calligraphy. His line was so long that we ended up interviewing him separately. Christian is an artist, entrepreneur, futurist who specializes in endangered writing systems and tattoos from the Philippines. Hello, and welcome to Apex Express. Can you tell me your name, your background and what you were doing at the Valkyries Filipino Heritage Night? [00:28:40] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah. My name is Kristian Kabuay. I’m a cultural practitioner specializing in our old, uh, pre-colonial, I say pre-Philippine, writing system and tattooing traditions. I was at the Valkyries, Filipino Heritage Night to interact with the community. I’ve done a lot of work with the Warriors, you know, going back to Oracle for these cultural nights, the Giants, as well. So most of the teams in the Bay Area, but it was my first time with the Valkyries, and it was quite different. [00:29:16] Miko Lee: How was it different?  [00:29:17] Kristian Kabuay: The vibe was, um… I’m telling everybody that it was my first Valkyries game, too. So the vibe was different. It reminds me of the old Oracle, it wasn’t full of, like, tech money that are, you know, Patagonia vests watching the game. It felt very homegrown and it just brought me back to those days in old Oakland A’s and when the Warriors were in Oracle. [00:29:42] Miko Lee: What does that evoke for you? What is that feeling like?  [00:29:46] Kristian Kabuay: It gives me a stronger sense of community and the audience is different. The demographics is different. There isn’t that toxic male energy. I don’t have to worry about someone being drunk and going off and, it was very homey and welcoming. It brings back, as a kid, when I used to watch A’s games in the bleachers, watching at Oracle, the community, and not everyone was there to be seen. They were really there for the team.  [00:30:15] Miko Lee: Oh, I love that. I actually do feel like it is, it’s such a we’re together community vibe. [00:30:20] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah. They even had the wave. I know some snooty teams, they don’t have the wave, so-  [00:30:26] Miko Lee: That wave went on for a long time, too.  [00:30:29] Kristian Kabuay: Exactly. I’ve been to a lot of games. They’re, “Oh, I don’t wanna look stupid,” or whatever? So that’s a big part of my childhood.  [00:30:36] Miko Lee: So I was gonna try and talk with you at the game like I did the other artists, but you had a huge line waiting to see you and talk to you. Talk with me a little bit more about your art form and this pre-clo colonization form of writing.  [00:30:52] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah. Most civilizations had a writing system. It was prior to the land alphabet when the Spanish came and colonized the Philippines in the 1500s. We have this writing. There’s only one ethnolinguistic group left in the Philippines that writes it. I come from a background of calligraphy, graffiti and abstract art. When I started to practice it, I incorporated those things. Later I found that I had to become an educator. Then starting to do the cultural festivals. Then you make your parents proud. It wasn’t until I started to interact with the community that, there was this responsibility. I didn’t come from a highly academic background, but I was being invited to Stanford and Berkeley to give talks about this. So, you know, that imposter syndrome kicked in. Because of the efforts that I’ve started in, 2010s, the idea of education around this specific writing system, my service isn’t really needed. It’s out there. Wikipedia, even AI can do it now, and there’s a lot of influencers on TikTok that are, building on the stuff that I did 10 years ago. It goes in line with my idea of putting myself out of business. ‘Cause if it’s a cultural practice, then you shouldn’t be this gatekeeper, this apex of this this knowledge or this practice. It needs to be spread  [00:32:15] Miko Lee: What is the writing system called?  [00:32:17] Kristian Kabuay: A couple names. One of the popular names is Baybayin, and that literally means to spell. It’s an adverb, but then it became a noun. So there’s many different names depending on the languages in the Philippines.  [00:32:30] Miko Lee: And you said that there’s a village of folks that still utilize it. Have you been there?  [00:32:34] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah, I was there in 2016 with a research trip. I stayed with them for a few days to learn, a bit about more about the culture and to donate some time and volunteer, ’cause there’s the Mangyan Heritage Foundation. I did some technology work with them. But then also meet with the elders that were there. The village elder did an interview for a film project that I’m doing, but also met the heirs, the daughters in the family that ultimately inherited this practice. [00:33:02] Miko Lee: And so they know that you’re teaching this cultural practice around the world, and what is their opinion of that? What do they think?  [00:33:09] Kristian Kabuay: They like it, because it’s a different perspective, and a lot of questions. When I go home they go, “Oh, why are you interested in this?” It’s a totally different perspective. ‘Cause out here, we have our identity, and the diaspora issues. But back home, because of circumstances, colonization, et cetera, then, the priority is to eat, to live, not to preserve these cultural practices. I’ve had some indigenous elders tell me that when People come over there, to do their dissertation and they need to figure out their paper to get their PhD. They ask them, “What are you doing to preserve this?” It’s kind of extractive or, like, information gathering. Honestly, it really is you strip it down, it is, survival: food, clothing, and shelter.  [00:33:52] Miko Lee: When people were standing in line for you at the actual Valkyrie’s game, what were they asking you to write? Were they asking you to write notes or their name, or what was the request?  [00:34:03] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah. Yeah, the line… I was telling people I’ve never had a line that long when I’ve done the Warriors. So- … you know, it’s kind of different.  [00:34:10] Miko Lee: That’s interesting. Just saying [00:34:11] Kristian Kabuay: Yes. I was writing mainly people’s names- Mm um, and some words. Maybe a, a good third were non-Filipino, some were there just curious and asking and cultural sharing. Someone knows a Filipino and they go, “Oh, can you write mahal kita?” Like, I love you. And so, we pick up things, just here in the Bay Area. I have conversations with people wanna hear a family name that I never heard about. I say, “Whoa, where’s your family from?” Kids learn the stories on how they combine names and some of the origins. It’s always interesting when I do this with folks. [00:34:44] Miko Lee: I love that. And you’re also a tattoo artist. Do you use some of this writing in your tattoo artistry?  [00:34:51] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah, I do. And that’s where the separation between the art and the cultural practice is. Where the writing wasn’t tattooed traditionally, but that’s where I kind of balance the art. And I separate those two where art is my expression, my personal expression on paper or maybe even on a body, but a cultural practice is more about them and their lineage. So I have to be clear to make those two distinctions.  [00:35:20] Miko Lee: So a question I’ve asked all the different people that have been involved in this night is that the Valkyries are based on women warriors, and I wonder if there’s a Filipina woman warrior that comes to mind to you? [00:35:32] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah, there is. There’s one that, part of the lore. Where my dad’s from, in his area called Pangasinan, the land of the salt. There’s a princess warrior named Princess Urduja that was thought of as a great warrior. This specific Princess Urduja has that Valkyrie’s spirit. All the artwork that you see and Academics will say, “Oh, it’s you’re romanticizing,” and things like that. But you know what? We need a little romance in our lives, right? And romance leads to action.  [00:36:03] Miko Lee: Ah, we certainly do. I’m wondering, with all those people, the long line that stood waiting for you, and you’re having these conversations, what would you like them to walk away with after interacting with you?  [00:36:14] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah. That’s why there was a sign, and I took a picture of it. It doesn’t say, Philippine writing. So it says pre-Philippine calligraphy. I made that term up in 2007 as a way to jolt someone’s idea of what pre-Hispanic, pre-colonial is. ‘Cause those things kinda just fly overhead. But if I said pre-Philippines, people, they take a step back and they, “What’s that mean?” Or they try to have a smart comeback, “Well, what were we before then?” And my question’s always then, “Well, I don’t know. Let’s talk about it.” That gray area, that being uncomfortable, leads to more curiosity, and ultimately, that’s what I want folks to go ahead and, you know… oh, I have this banana leaf. I ran out of index cards. I brought 100 of them. I had these banana leaves that I just meant to decorate the table. I said, “You know what? Let me write on these banana leaves like how our ancestors did.” People are asking, “Oh, what, we wrote on banana leaves?” I’m all, “Yeah, we wrote on, organic materials.” So this thing is probably gonna wilt away in a few weeks or a month or so, but that’s how it is. So it’s a metaphor for our physical selves, but then also, the message. Maybe they can go ahead and learn how to write it themselves or until we reconnect again. [00:37:31] Miko Lee: Hmm. That’s beautiful. And how can our audience find out more about you and your work?  [00:37:36] Kristian Kabuay: Yeah, you can just search for me online. My last name’s K-A-B-U-A-Y. First name’s Kristian, both with a K. All over the internets and the socials, pretty easy to find.  [00:37:46] Miko Lee: Thank you. And we’ll put links to your website in our show notes, so thank you so much for chatting with me today. [00:37:52] Kristian Kabuay: Thanks, Miko [00:37:54] Miko Lee: I honestly didn’t know that basketball was such a revered sport in the Philippines. So wanting to find out more, I reached out to a bunch of community folks, and multiple people said, “Reach out to Coach Carolyn Sudeco. She’s the one. She’s in the know.” So talking to me from her vacation spot halfway around the world is Coaching Kapwa’s Carolyn Sudeco. Welcome, Carolyn Sideco, to Apex Express. I’m so happy to have you here.  [00:38:19] Carolyn Sideco: Thank you for having me.  [00:38:21] Miko Lee: Can you first start by telling me who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you? [00:38:27] Carolyn Sideco: Oh my gosh, my people are, collectively, folks who identify as, Philippinics, Filipina, Filipino, and American, and, migratory, and those who claim blood relation and those who I’m still looking for. I live in San Francisco, California, Ohlone land, and also in the land of Choctaw Bulbancha, which is New Orleans, Louisiana. Those are the two places I reside.  [00:39:04] Miko Lee: Can you share about your work with Coaching Kapwa?  [00:39:08] Carolyn Sideco: Coaching Kapwa is what I love to do, and my background professionally is as a certified athletic administrator. I’m a physical educator at the high school level by profession, by certification, by training. But really what I love to do, and so what I do in my consultancy, is I explore and I examine and I think about and learn about everything related to sports cultures and how the culture of sports in all its various ways affect our societies. Specifically, I geek out over learning about my own Filipino American histories and other peoples. Learning that through the concept or the constructs of culture and how sports really is, for me, the funnest way to investigate who I am and who we are to each other. I call myself a sports relationship coach. I am a sports cultures consultant. I also like to identify as a sports liberator. [00:40:16] Miko Lee: Ooh, can you break down what a sports liberator is? [00:40:20] Carolyn Sideco: Miko, I took that from a friend of mine, Danya Cabello, also from the East Bay. Played at Cal, played professionally, and when I first met her years ago, she identified as such, and I said, “That is exactly the kind of person that I wanna be, like, in sports.” I wanted sports to be a way that I could share with people who we are to one another. I wanted to teach young people that they can express themselves in a way that helps make them feel free. With my background in sports administration, I was feeling like the sports industrial complex was really the antithesis of that. And what a lot of people in my profession were striving for was this success that was not defined in the same way that I was defining what my liberation was, and what I felt through sports. So I adopted that. I asked Dania, “Can I call myself a sports liberator too?” And she said, “Girl, you call yourself whatever you want.” So that’s what I go by.  [00:41:37] Miko Lee: Ooh, thank you for sharing. That’s so interesting in the midst of our kind of capitalization of sports, how corporate it has become. Interesting. Thanks. I also wanted to thank you for sharing with me, Rafe Bartholomew’s Hoop Nation and Cassidy Hubbard’s, Hoop’s Paradise. So those, along with your YouTubes, really gave me a grounding in the connection to between basketball and the Philippines. I’ll put a link to those in the show notes for other people that like to do deep dives like me. But can you just give our audience a sense of why basketball is so popular in the Philippines?  [00:42:10] Carolyn Sideco: I learned about the history of basketball and Filipino culture in the Philippines through various people, Rafe Bartholomew one of them, and his book Pacific Rims. A friend of mine here in the San Francisco Bay Area, Kevin Santos, was doing his master’s thesis on the history of basketball in the Philippines, and putting an ethnic studies frame on it, so he was the one who actually, practiced his thesis and presentation with me, and I learned a lot through him, and through other people as I was learning about this myself, and how basketball when it was initially, or as we, the modern game of basketball was invented, by Dr. Naismith in Massachusetts with the peach tree basket. Most of us are familiar with that history, but also that was around the time of the Philippine-American War, and US colonization was at its beginning. And so what did the United States export, was its culture, and a lot of that was through sports, mainly baseball, ’cause baseball was already the national pastime. Basketball was relatively new, and basketball was taught in the Philippines also, like in conjunction with the American education system by teachers, by the Thomasites, and by others who were using that form of colonization. They gave basketball to the women and the girls, because it was the lesser sport. It was the newer sport, so it was the lesser sport. They gave it to the women. The men were supposed to play baseball. The Philippines is a collective society- Baseball is a spread out sport, and people aren’t close to one another. You’re out on a field, it’s hella hot, and it’s boring. [00:44:17] Miko Lee: Agree. Totally agree …  [00:44:19] Carolyn Sideco: it’s easy, to make this assumption that these people playing baseball were watching the girls and women play basketball, and it’s faster. Close to one another. It’s easy to make a space. So they started playing basketball.  [00:44:39] Miko Lee: Also, you don’t need all the things. You need a ball. [00:44:41] Carolyn Sideco: Exactly. In the early days, you didn’t even need shoes. Yeah. So it took off in that way because basketball already itself was an activity that Filipino people, kinda took hold of already, and they made it their own. Trained teams started forming and the Philippines had national teams that were already very successful in Asian context, so Asian tournaments they were dominating. In 1975, the Philippine Basketball Association became the first men’s, basketball league in Asia, and the first after the NBA in America. So the Philippines has had a long history of relationship with the sport of basketball, but because it’s been so long, the sport itself was formed in response to all the cultural aspects that were already existing, right? a lot of town squares had basketball courts ’cause it was so easy to put there. So the same plazas, meeting spaces where people would have their town gatherings, social places, were also courts  [00:45:56] Miko Lee: And why do you think or just surmise that basketball has taken off more than, football or American term soccer, which is developed so much in other countries, which is also a little bit more communal? [00:46:08] Carolyn Sideco: My opinion is that American colonization, in the United States dictated, much more the United States cannot dictate because football or soccer is a more global sport, and the US didn’t have as much stake in guiding that as a colonization tool as they did basketball. [00:46:29] Miko Lee: Hmm. Interesting. Speaking of the colonization and politics, I’m wondering about the connection between basketball and politics. In, Cassidy’s podcast, they were talking about a politician who released their own basketball shoe, which is wild to me. Yes. So I wonder if there’s other connections between basketball or politics, and if that’s generally somebody who’s more on the colonizer’s viewpoint or more conservative viewpoint. Hmm.  [00:46:58] Carolyn Sideco: Hmm. Interesting. I, hmm, I go back and forth with this a lot, Miko, the colonizing tool that is sports, especially the capitalistic sort of, extraction, of sports, right? Of its players, who I like to think of as workers. They’re also workers, right? The professional, Philippine Basketball Association is not much different than even professional sports in America with the way they’re set up, right? You have owning groups or companies, and so you have these ways that exploitation and that workers’ rights are… how do I say it? Because it’s at the professional level, these concepts are very much at play, excuse the pun. The Philippines also has a governmental arm related to sports. So sports in and of itself is recognized, right? It doesn’t have as much of this sort of altruistic thing as, as we say in the United States, like the sports is like the good of mankind, like that sort of thing. Like, I think, you know-  [00:48:08] Miko Lee: The kind of Olympic idea of unity, it brings us all together. [00:48:11] Carolyn Sideco: Right, like that, those conceptual sorts of virtues.  [00:48:15] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.  [00:48:15] Carolyn Sideco: Yeah. So in the Philippines, I think it’s so much more practical because it’s fun, and you could get in a game anywhere, and it’s accessible. Mm-hmm. It’s accessible to all strata, economic strata, right? You see basketball courts everywhere, in rural areas in cities. Everywhere you’ll see basketball courts. The Philippines itself as a country- I think that relationship to sports is something different than the American relationship to professional sports, where dominance and, winning and, beating others and making as much money as possible in that is at the forefront. In the United States even with youth sports now. I do some consulting work, especially in youth sports spaces, and the privatization and the extraction of the youth sports space is, is… We could go on all day about that. I think, this is obviously from a Filipino American perspective. For sure. I’ve never lived in the Philippines. I was born in the Philippines, but my relationship to the Philippines is also, being mitigated by how I experience American sports, right? So when I think about how I’ve experienced basketball when I’ve gone to the Philippines, , and it’s the same as any aspect of that culture, right? It’s warm, it’s welcoming, it’s friendly, and those are the cultural aspects that kind of, , supersede the fact that basketball… Basketball has its place, but it’s in service to the cultural needs, right? To the need to be social, to participate in a town gathering. It’s so sociopolitical.- And because it is, it’s still a colonizing tool, right? But it’s still mitigated in a way that I think just like Filipino basketball players are so, like, quick. They’re known for quickness, agility, and finesse, and, like, drama, right? I used to joke around, like, you can always tell where a Filipino basketball player is in the United States ’cause no Filipino who has Filipino blood in them can do a regular layup. Like they have to make it all fancy. I think that, those sorts of aspects that are not tangible, that bring to light, the way a culture of people affect the sport. it enables a culture to push out through the boundaries of that sport what was given to them. What was given to them is, “This is how you play. These are the rules,” and all that kinda stuff, and that’s great, but Filipino history of basketball is always, like, how do you integrate all the really cool things about your culture? It’s something that’s very different, and it emerges as something that’s not quite American. [00:51:36] Miko Lee: Thank you so much. I’m wondering how our audience can find out more about you and your work.  [00:51:43] Carolyn Sideco: They can, follow me on Instagram at coachingkapwa, K-A-P-W-A. Kapwa is the Filipino word for the concept of interrelationship, interconnectedness. And so everything I learned about being, being a person really is through being a good teammate, and sports is the funnest way, like I’ve said before to practice being a good teammate  [00:52:12] Miko Lee: Thank you so much, Coach, for sharing with me about Sports Liberation and your work, and I’ll put links to all that in our show notes. And I thank you so much for joining us on Apex Express.  [00:52:23] Carolyn Sideco: Thank you, Miko [00:52:25] Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night.    The post APEX Express – 8.13.26 – Bayanihan in Ballhalla appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 8.06.26 – Obbligato – In Conversation with Composer Reena Esmail 06.08.2026 59мин

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. For this episode of “Obbligato,” a show dedicated to AAPI classical musicians, composers, and scholars, host Isabel Li interviews Indian American composer Reena Esmail, who blends Hindustani musical themes with western classical compositional styles. Music in this episode: – This Love Between Us “Prayers for Unity”: II. [Sikhism] – Lacrimosa (from Malhaar: a Requiem for Water) – Terra infirma: IV. roaming the ghost forest Transcript Isabel Li: I’m Isabel Li, here for a new edition of “Obbligato,” which explores the AAPI community in the classical music world. Today, we’re featuring the Indian American composer Reena Esmail and her unique compositions that blend Hindustani music with Western classical styles and how she writes music about religion, spirituality, and even environmentalism. Welcome, Reena, to Apex Express. Reena Esmail: Hey! It’s so great to be here. IL: My first question for you is one that’s probably a little bit loaded, but how do you identify and what’s your story? RE: I don’t know, it’s interesting because I work in many different situations, and I think I always identify as the thing that isn’t whatever the dominant situation is that I work in. Right? So it’s like when I’m in America, I identify as an Indian American. When I’m in India, I identify as an American. When I’m working in Western classical music, I’m the person who knows stuff about Hindustani music. When I’m working in Hindustani music, I’m the person who knows stuff about Western music. So really. Actually, I think of identity not as a fixed thing, but as how you, um, delineate yourself, how you’re unique in the situation you’re in. You know, it’s interesting because especially in the case of Asian Americans, Asia is such a broad thing, right? There are so many more East Asians in Western classical music than there are South Asians. Certainly in my generation. You know, I was surrounded by Chinese, Korean, some Japanese people who were always, you know, playing the piano when I was playing the piano. And, um, there really was not many other Indian people. And, you know, I’ll, I’ll actually say that even within India, um, you know, if you look at me in America, I’m just Indian. If you look at me in India, I have a very unusual lineage, which is that my dad is from the region of Gujarat and his family is Muslim. My mom is from the region of Goa and her family is Catholic. And so because of that, when I was expressing interest in music, My mom was the one who had more of kind of a musical knowledge in her family, even though there’s no professional musicians in her family. So because Goa was colonized by Portugal, there is this element of Western classical music in Goan culture. And so because of that, my mom was like, oh, let’s give her guitar lessons, let’s give her piano lessons. And so that’s how I landed up in Western classical music as opposed to doing Indian classical music. Um, so yeah, I kind of went through the Western classical scene. I was very interested in being a pianist. And, you know, I’m glad that I’m glad I’m a failed pianist in all honesty, because I see what my colleagues who are real, you know, professional pianists have to go through. And I just don’t think I have what it takes to do that. It’s really an intense job. Um, but when I was in high school, um, one of my theory teachers kind of said, hey, you know, you might be a composer. It seems like you think like a composer thinks, why don’t you try composing and why don’t you try writing things down? and one thing led to another. And basically a year and a half to two years after studying, I got one of a very few spots in the undergrad program in composition at Juilliard. And that was a point where my parents kind of said, okay, you know, we don’t know a lot about the music world, but it seems like if she got into Juilliard, she’s probably like somewhat good at this. Maybe we should kind of see how this goes. And, you know, from there on, I pursued composition. IL: And when and why did you start to study Indian classical music, which is a big element in your compositions now? RE: Yeah, absolutely. So I think it’s interesting because in every generation, I’ve seen so much change in how the diaspora views itself. And certainly when I was growing up, you know, I know this is hard to believe, but there were not if you were an Indian going to school, you were kind of the only one. If you were an Indian music, you were kind of the only one. So there was this element where when I went to Juilliard, um, there were I to my knowledge, two Indians in the entire school, me and an actress who had actually come from Calcutta. And so people were trying to, you know, make conversation with me and they’d be like, well, you know, do you do stuff with Indian classical music? And I would just be like, no, I’m trying so hard to even write music for orchestra and, you know, string quartet and all the things that my peers are trying to do. Like, is that not enough? Because I’m Indian, I also have to be doing all this other stuff. And so I resisted it for a long time because I was just trying so hard to do one thing well. But then, you know, I think what, what made me kind of unique is that, you know, I stood out, I was Indian and then, you know, when I was young, that felt really cool. The older I got, the more I thought, well, you know, I know I’m from this culture that has incredible music and I know it when I hear it, I know nothing about it, and maybe I should actually pursue it. And so I really separately kind of started meeting Indian musicians who lived in New York, and I would just ask them questions, and I got to know them. And I realized that while we didn’t share a type of music, we did share a culture and we did share a love of music because it is interesting that the culture of Indian classical music is actually quite similar to the culture of Western classical music. You know, you study with a teacher over a really long period of time. You’re practicing for hours a day. The kind of personality that would love Western classical music would also love Indian classical music. And so I just made friends with some of these Indian classical musicians. And of course, being a composer, I thought, why don’t I put them in my music? You know, how do I do that? And so it was really just curiosity that led me down that path. And for many years, that path was very separate. Because again, I know it’s very hard to believe now, but there was a time where people really did not want these cultures to be combined, and people just really looked down on cultures that were not, you know, the dominant Western European classical culture. And so I kept them really separate. And even when I started combining them, people were like, oh, that’s sweet. She does stuff with Indian music, you know? And it was really not taken seriously. It’s only really in the last decade that people have been embracing other musical cultures. And I mean, how glad I am that that’s happening. But it was very, very hard fought and very separate at first. IL: And on that note, how do you navigate the unique challenges of composing with both these cultures in mind, but also being situated in the United States, where people come from all different backgrounds? And how do you as a composer approach that in this context? RE: I mean, I think it’s interesting because first of all, I am musically bilingual now, so I can. I went to India, I studied Indian classical music. Seriously. I still work with Indian classical musicians very closely. And so, you know, I can be working on a piece that has Indian classical musicians in it, and I can turn to them and immediately speak in their language and their musical language. And then I can turn to the Western musicians and speak in their musical language. So every single piece I write, especially the ones that involve Indian classical musicians. There is a way through those pieces, both through the Western lens and through the Indian lens. And so I think I’m working in a position where I actually do know how to speak both those languages. And when you do speak both those languages, you know, just the way that if you speak any two, you know, verbal languages, you would know that there are sounds that are cognates. And so you’re like, oh, I say the sound. So maybe and it means one thing in one culture and one thing in another culture. But you know that that sound is the same. And so with musical language, you can actually use those musical cognates to connect across cultures by saying, just listen for this thing. And when you listen for this thing, interpret it through the lens of your own culture. So that’s certainly how I work. But, you know, I mean, again, I want to say that’s not the only way to work. I don’t think that you have to be, you know, I mean, again, there’s probably most people who are listening to this probably have one musical culture and then maybe they know much less about the other musical culture. That is also fine. You know, you don’t need to be an expert in order to want to explore and, and love a thing that’s just, you know, where I am because it’s the, the center of my musical practice. IL: Well, let’s hear a selection from Reena Esmail’s oratorio, “This Love Between Us.” This is the second movement titled Sikhism. David Hill conducts Juilliard415 with the Yale Schola Cantorum. [MUSIC: This Love Between Us “Prayers for Unity”: II. Sikhism] IL: That was Sikhism, the second movement from the oratorio This Love Between Us by Reena Esmail, who is here in conversation with me today on KPFA for APEX Express. Something that I really found interesting in especially your work — and I’m sure this has been asked many times, but This Love Between Us: Prayers for Unity. This oratorio that you wrote, beautiful work where you use words from the seven major religions of India. And each movement of the choral work is also named after a different religion. In what ways did you adhere to or challenge norms of spiritual music? Because religion is so religion and music are so deeply tied together. How did you challenge those norms or how did you express those norms when you wrote this work? RE: You know, I think it’s interesting because my own spiritual background is very kind of multi spiritual multi-faith. But like I said, my, my father is, is my father’s side of the family is Muslim. My mom’s side of the family is Catholic. My husband is Hindu. All of them grew up in a very singular practice in each of their religions. But for me, I grew up, you know, around my mom and my dad and then, you know, my husband later. And just there’s a part of me that takes in the essence of each of these spiritual traditions. And, you know, I’m trying to kind of find what feels true to me in each of those places. And so to me, you know, this love between us is, is a place where I’m trying to essentially say, yes, we express things differently through whatever cultural, uh, history, that language or that that religion emerged through. And yet we’re all trying to get at that same numinous thing. And, you know, I mean, I’m not saying, oh, all religions are the same. Definitely not. You know, there’s, there’s many different ways to practice things. And, you know, your unique way into your spirituality is your own. And that’s, that’s amazing. But also, we all kind of our cultures form religions for a certain reason, and it’s because we want to try to understand things that are beyond ourselves. And so that’s essentially what the piece is saying. So I know I’m sure there are purists who are like, you shouldn’t be combining these things, but, you know, there’s always going to be purists who do that and there’s a role for that. But that’s not really my role. So, I mean, I picked the pieces and I picked the religion specifically because of the numbers of people who practice that religion currently within India. And so it is like the largest, um, populations, you know, like Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, all, all of those things. And then there’s one little tiny religion, Zoroastrianism. And while they are not, there’s not many of them within India. They are the ones who are practicing Western classical music in India. So people like Zubin Mehta and all, they are Parsis that are Zoroastrians. So I thought, you know, it’s important to include them too, because it’s a piece that involves a lot of Western classical musicians. IL: I’m wondering now, as a composer who’s working with music of different languages and religions and origins and also evoking a lot of these spiritual truths that are pretty universal in nature. What is your view on the function of music? There’s the platitude that music is a universal language. Do you how to what extent do you agree with that? RE: You know, yeah, it’s hard to, to, um, to think of music as a universal language. But I think sometimes we, how can I say this? It’s such a broad question. When we are working in a form that isn’t completely narrative, it gives us a little more chance to get at things that don’t have to follow logically after one another. They’re just feelings that we’re able to feel. And I like working even when there are words, you know, there are certainly words in all of these, these, uh, pieces in this love between us. But I feel like sometimes we just feel something within us. And, you know, I experience this a lot when I have a piece performed, people will come up to me and say like, oh, this made me feel like this. And then the next person will come up to me and say, oh, this made me feel exactly the opposite thing. And I, I really love that we can have those experiences. And, you know, recently it’s been really interesting because people have been asking these questions like interviewers, you know, before performances will be like, well, what do you want the audience to feel? And I’m like, oh, I don’t want to answer that question. I want you to feel whatever you feel. There’s nothing right to feel. And often, I mean, I’m not the one to ask. I’m so close to the music because when I’m listening, I’m thinking like, okay, was that C sharp in tune? Okay, you know, that’s what I’m feeling. And I certainly don’t want them to feel that. So I don’t know. I think it’s, it’s just exciting to see how when we get out of these, what we should do this and this is the right thing to do. And this is the only way to do it. Um, how do we behave? And there are so few spaces left where if we don’t say exactly the right words at the right time to the right people, you know, if we don’t have exactly the right opinions that everyone around us has, We are so condemned and music might be one of the last places that we’re allowed to feel whatever’s inside of us. IL: Mhm. That’s really interesting to think about. I think art in general is very beautiful because it allows people to interpret it in many different ways. I think for your music, you really draw on cultural specificity in terms of Hindustani music. What advice would you give to other young composers or also maybe artists of different mediums in creating that balance between specificity and universality? RE: Yeah, I think the thing is that the way into a deep practice is specificity. You know, I know people have asked me like, oh, you’ve done stuff with Indian music. Are you going to do stuff with other music? And I’m like, gosh, there’s still so much to explore. I could have like three lifetimes and still not explore everything I want to explore just in the relationship between Indian and Western classical music. I mean, goodness knows I have four degrees in Western classical music, and I still am barely scratching the surface of it. Right. So I kind of feel like specificity is important because it allows you to access depth. And yet, you know, when you are specific about a certain thing, um, like for instance, like a scholar who only speaks Italian, I mean, they’re going to know more than someone who maybe speaks five words of each language, right? So they can transfer over at a higher level and make more sophisticated points and understand the world with a more universal lens if they’ve gone really deep on one thing. So I would say, you know, to young composers, to young musicians, pick one practice and know it really, really well and deeply become go as far as you possibly can and then, you know, try to see if you can find relations between your primary practice and a different practice. Um, and I mean, some people, you know, I know in this generation that’s coming up, that’s like in their teens and twenties, there are South Asian, uh, kids who are here whose parents have come from India that are learning Indian and Western classical music side by side. And I think that’s great. I mean, that’s awesome. But I would also say make sure you don’t just learn halfway. Both of those things, you know, if you’re going to learn them, if at least with one thing, try to go as absolutely far as you can. IL: Let’s hear another example of Reena Esmail’s bilingual musicality with her work, Malhaar: A Requiem for Water, which was recorded fairly recently. The vocalist is Graycen Gardner with the choir conducted by Amy Fogerson. [MUSIC: Lacrimosa (from Malhaar: a Requiem for Water)] IL: Composer Reena Esmail used Indian classical instruments in that work, titled Malhaar: A Requiem for water. The vocalist was Graycen Gardner, with the choir conducted by Amy Fogerson. Percussionist was Rohit Panchakshari. I’m Isabel Li in conversation with composer Reena Esmail on this edition of Apex Express here on KPFA 94.1 FM. So when you integrate Hindustani classical Hindustani music, Indian classical music and those instruments into your scores, did you happen to did you have to develop a way to translate the notation of those notes in Western classical music notation, or vice versa? RE: Yeah, it it begs the greater question of what is notation for? Right? Because notation is essentially a way for Western musicians who read notation to look at a thing and be able to associate sounds with that thing. And so when I’m notating for Western classical musicians, I’m saying, okay, what is a cellist typically seeing and what are they doing based on what they’re seeing? And then how can I take that language that they know really well that they play in Bach suites, that they play in Elgar, Cello Concerto, whatever it is, how can I take that language and just move it, you know, a couple degrees outward so that they’re able to express different things, right? And so it’s very much a psychological thing. You know, it’s not a science the way that we think of it as and we learn it as this, oh, you know, eighths and sixteenths, and they divide this way. There’s a lot you can do just to make someone feel a certain way with notation. On the other hand, if I’m writing for a sitar or tabla, the question is what? What is the role of the notation? Because the role of the notation for tabla player who has only Hindustani training and doesn’t read music. It’s certainly not for the tabla player that I’m doing the notation. Usually what I’ll do is sit down with the tabla player in a, you know, more Hindustani style and say, hey, this is what I want. I want you to have like six overtones of teental. It should be at this tempo, blah, blah, blah. And they’re like, oh, got it. I see what you want me to do. Right? And so all you need to figure out is the alignment points with the Western classical musicians. And so then the notation I put in the score is not really for them. It’s for a conductor, for the Western musicians to be able to understand what they are doing and to be able to cue them in and help them kind of be in dialogue to one another. So it’s interesting because, I mean, these days now I’m finding that there are tabla players who are both Indian and Western classical trained, and they want a part, but parts are not a thing. When I first wrote This Love Between Us, there were no parts for the tabla and sitar player. I actually had a cue sheet that I would actually point to as they were going, so that they knew, you know, what the different cues were because a part, you know, counting rests and stuff is not going to help them at all. So I think it’s mostly trying to understand how is someone perceiving something and how can you give them the information they need in the most seamless way possible so that you can express what you want to express? IL: I love how technical that entire rundown was. I also wanted to talk a bit about your work, Terra Infirma, which is pretty recent. I had the honor of attending the premiere of Terra Infirma, a harp concerto that you composed based on your experiences with the Los Angeles fires in January of 2025. Um, it was such a wonderful work. I personally really loved hearing how you musically depicted the progression of a wildfire from despair to hope. It’s also not the first environment based piece that you’ve written. YYou’ve written, for example, Earth Speaks in 2015. How do you approach composing works that are so rooted in environmentalism? And of course, have, have the undertones of speaking to the larger climate crisis at hand? RE: The thing that is interesting is, you know, someone was asking me about that piece, you know, you, you’re, they’re asking like, how do you kind of deal with activism in your work? And I was saying like, you know, I don’t really think of myself as an activist because I think these issues are so fundamental to all of us, right? It’s like you turn on your tap and you’re just afraid that there’s only going to be so long before water stops coming up. That’s not, um, it doesn’t feel like activism. It just feels like, you know, fear and it feels like we’re tapping into these human emotions where people are so worried about what’s going to happen. We don’t really know what to do. And I think, you know, with anything, most people who have fear about things, you’re going to just clam up if you feel that it’s too, um, too much to deal with. And it is I mean, the environmental crisis is so huge that I think most people are just clamming up. And I guess, you know, what is our role as musicians? I think it’s maybe to have some moments where we’re not just like on our phones, seeing pictures of things burn down and freaking out where we can actually take some time to just reflect and be with one another. Because if we’re going to solve this, it’s going to be together and we need to come to some kind of like calm understanding of what is happening. And so a lot of my pieces are not accusatory. They’re not, you know, pointing a finger. They’re not supposed to rile people up. They’re supposed to actually depict that experience of what it feels like to really sit with a hard thing for a long time and come to terms with it and then figure out how to move forward. And that’s certainly the case with Terra Infirma and certainly the case with my Requiem. Certainly the case with curiosity, like you were saying, it’s from Earth Speaks, which is many years ago. And that piece actually talks about the, the Pasadena institution’s. It was actually for an organization called Pasadena Master Chorale. They commissioned the work many years ago. And what’s so funny is I now live in Pasadena. I live in Altadena, up in the hills. So it’s I wasn’t living here at the time, but it is, you know, a place where many scientific institutions like the U.S. Geological Survey, you know, JPL, Caltech, all these places that are really exploring the environment in important ways are based. And so the piece kind of honors that and honors how we can interact positively with our environment. We can get data, we can find ways to do things that are, I mean, beyond my understanding, you’d have to ask a scientist, but but I just love that that we’re in this place that sees the environment as something to understand more deeply instead of something that’s just going to turn on us at a certain point. IL: Certainly. And I’m really curious, because Terra Infirma is also a work that was paired with multimedia animation and performance. Was there anything in your compositional process that differed when you’re collaborating across these different mediums? RE: Yeah. So it’s interesting because so the, there was, there were projections that were happening. And also in addition to that, it was a harp concerto, but a harp concerto where the harpist was also playing percussion. And so there were some elements that were so different than what would be typically like if harpist was like, I want a concerto. You would just be like, okay, you know, she sits there, she plays these notes. They’re in that one position. That’s all fine. Um, there was so much more, you’re right with this piece than with, um, with my normal pieces. Um, and to me it’s both, how can I say this? There’s, there’s such a different way I have to think about it, but I think that way starts with collaboration. So Yolanda Kondonassis, the incredible harp player, and Camilla Tassi, who was the production designer. These are people I know well and I’ve had multiyear relationships with. And so when you’re thinking about how to build something, you’re totally aware of what their work is like. I knew kind of the not even what Camilla’s projections were going to look like, but the way that they interact with things. We’ve done projects together before. And so I pretty much had the sense of how she was going to respond. And I knew what she needed to know in order for her to do her work and make things kind of match up with one another. And then also with Yolanda, a lot of the stuff I put in that was like harp and percussion together. It wasn’t something that I was making her do, right? It were things that we came up with together. We’ve spent so long workshopping things in percussion studios in, um, you know, we’ve met in all these different cities and we’re basically like banging things against a harp and doing, you know, just so much experimentation. So for every technique you see in the concerto, you, um, you basically there’s like ten things that we didn’t do that didn’t put in. So you’re really only seeing the best of all the kind of crazy stuff that we tried. So I do think the thing is that when you’re trying to invent something new and you’re trying to invent new styles and new techniques, I mean, you can think of anything, but you’re trying to find the things that A practically work and B allow the performers and the artists to really express themselves. So I found that I was actually choreographing the piece before I was composing it, um, that I had to figure out, okay, where are these percussion setups going to be? What are the instruments that I want? Okay. Are these chimes going to be like over her head? Or is she going to have to reach really far to get them? Are they going to be near the low end of the harp? Things like that that seem so practical. But the difference between having to reach out far and slowly versus having to like, quickly swat something near your ear, right? It makes a different choreography. And so I thought that way first. And then I kind of put the notes and rhythms and melodies and stuff in. IL: Let’s now hear a selection from Reena Esmail’s Terra Infirma. This is the fourth movement titled “Roaming the Ghost Forest.” Yolanda Kondonassis is the harpist with the Interlochen Center for the Arts Orchestra. [MUSIC: Terra infirma: IV. roaming the ghost forest] IL: The harpist was Yolanda Kondonassis with the Interlochen Center for the Arts Orchestra, playing the fourth movement of Terra Infirma by composer Reena Esmail. I’m Isabel Leigh, and in this episode of Apex Express, I’m joined by Reena Esmail, the composer, in conversation about her music and her approach to making art. Something else that I really was fascinated with on your on your Instagram account. You actually made a post a while back that I found to be very powerful. It’s pinned as the letter to the young artists’ immigrant parents. It’s such an empathetic message that I also really relate to as a daughter of immigrants in the arts. And you kind of argue that these children’s pursuit of the arts is a tribute to their parents immigrant struggles. Um, what motivated you to write this letter? RE: You know, I’m so glad you asked about that because so much has changed since I wrote that letter in a really good way. You know, first of all, I will say that when I wrote that letter, if you weren’t a child of, you know, like Asian immigrant parents, you. And actually, I think this is true for most immigrant parents who, you know, have kind of given up everything to move to America so that their kids can explore all these opportunities they wouldn’t get in their country of origin. When I first wrote this letter, it was really just, I felt like I was saying something really new. And now I think what’s really interesting is that we have both parents who understand this and, um, kind of almost this parody way of seeing what Asian parents are like. Right. For me, one thing that I, that just makes my heart sing is the comedy of Zarna Garg. I don’t know if you know who she is, but she is like an Indian American comic and she plays this role of being like this very typical Indian parent. And I will say, my parents weren’t really like this because again, they were two different religions and married one another. So they were already quite open minded. But like 99% of Indian parents and even my parents, sometimes they have this thing of like, well, ‘why are you going into this?’ Like you should make money, you should do this stuff. And I feel like, um, since Zarna’s comedy came into the world, it’s such an easy way to just point a finger at that and say, hey, this is what we’re really dealing with as Indian immigrants. And, you know, we all just laugh at it. And I find that, you know, sometimes my friends who are just, you know, white Americans who have been in this family has been in this country for many generations. They don’t get it. But like anyone who’s a child of immigrant is like, oh yes, I completely understand what she’s saying. So we have that. And I think that’s really healthy and awesome. And she’s very talented. Um, and on the other hand, I found that when I was first going into music and I mean, I, you know, when I was 18 and I was going to go to Juilliard, my parents were certainly supportive and curious and wanted me to do whatever they thought I might be good at enough to make a living and didn’t want to optimize for, oh, you need to earn the most money or you need to, etc. but most other Indians around us were like, oh my God, she’s so smart. Why is she like wasting her life doing music? You know, that was kind of the dominant narrative. And so I had to become very good at explaining why. And imagine my complete disbelief when I would go to conservatory and meet people whose parents had encouraged them to do music. I was like, what is happening? Like, we’re like, there’d be four siblings and all of them would be in the arts. And I was like, oh wait, you’re not the black sheep of your family. Like, I mean, half of my family, I don’t think really knows what I do still even. Right? And so to me, it was so important to provide some kind of context. And like you said, it’s like to, to come to this country and be an immigrant and to come with a lot of skills, but to have to just work in silence for so many years with no congratulation, with no one just constantly propping you up. That is what being an artist is. And you know, it’s only maybe the past 10 years of my career that I’ve even been visible to people. Before that, it was just me doing my thing and like, no one cared about it. It was not not glamorous at all. And for me, that’s what built the kind of strength in me to be able to sustain the career that I have now. And so I think if it had been a little too easy, I don’t know that I would be able to handle, um, the, what I have now. So I think what’s great though is that the Indian parents of kids who are teenagers and in their twenties nowadays are not coming to me being like, oh my God, what do I do with this kid who wants to be a musician? I’ve failed as a parent. Which again, for those of you who are not Asian, this is totally a true thing out there. They will come to me and say, hey, look, my, my child doesn’t wants to be a musician. I want to help them. I can’t tell like, are they good at this? Where should they be? Can you help me understand things? And that is really what my parents did. And I will, you know, kind of go further to say — PBS did a special on me a number of years ago, and I insisted on putting my parents in this special because I wanted people to see what it looked like to have really encouraging Indian parents who, again, they weren’t going in blind. They were. They would go to my teachers and be like, well, I mean, is she good? Can she do this? We don’t know what these answers are. Can you help us understand? And they really relied on the right people to be able to help me get to places that they couldn’t get, but they also weren’t just immediately dismissive of it. And that’s what allowed me to kind of have a massive advantage, because I didn’t have to also go back to school and do a medical degree. Or like most of my my peers of my age actually did. So I wanted to put them on that special to actually show that that is possible. And I’m seeing more and more that it is. There are many more parents like that now. And oh my goodness, I love every one of them. IL: That’s wonderful. When you look back at your compositional career and how everything has changed since then, how do you think your work has evolved? RE: Oh, so you mean like since I began being a composer? IL: Yeah. Or maybe in the past ten years, even. RE: Yeah. It’s interesting because I think one of the big inflection points in my work was when I did my Fulbright in India. So before that, I really didn’t know very much about Indian classical music. And then the year before that, I really started to get deeper and started to integrate my Indian and Western classical world with one another. And then, you know, I from 2011 to 2012, I went to India and what was so different was actually seeing the music in its culture and actually getting to participate as an Indian in India, studying Indian classical music. Right. Because there’s no filter. You’re not going through a Western filter. You’re just there in this culture. And I know that many of my Indian teachers, they kind of had this attitude of like, look, we don’t know what kind of music you were doing before, but we’re so glad you’re here and studying your own music. And this is great. And so there wasn’t this sense of having to go through another culture to get to their, their music. And to me, that really changed things because I don’t see myself as writing music. That’s one through the conduit of the other. I just see it as two streams that are equally incredible and equally independent, and they just meet each other in these interesting places. IL: And looking ahead into the future, is there an ensemble or an artist who you haven’t worked with before that you’d love to work with? Ooh. It’s interesting because, like, almost everyone who comes to mind is not a musician. Um, I’ve worked with so many. I mean, truly, I’ve been so lucky to work with musicians like Gil and Orli Shaham. Yolanda Kondonassis. I’m writing a piece for Hilary Hahn and Matthias Goerne right now. It’s I mean, just like literally anyone who I could ever ask to work with, I have. I don’t know. I mean, to me, it’s like, gosh, someone like Misty Copeland would be amazing. Like, you know, there are so many actors like the world of Indian/South Asians in comedy and in drama and stuff like that is just incredible. People like Mindy Kaling who have done incredible things to me, people like that are just going outside of just music would be fascinating to me. IL: Absolutely. And I will put a link to your website, as well as the links to the music that will also be aired on this in this episode on KPFA.org, so our listeners can learn more about you and your wonderful work. Well, Reena, thank you so much for your time and thank you for talking to me today. RE: Absolutely. The post APEX Express – 8.06.26 – Obbligato – In Conversation with Composer Reena Esmail appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – July 30, 2026 30.07.2026 59мин

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. The post APEX Express – July 30, 2026 appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 7.16.26 – South Asians and The Labor Justice Movement 16.07.2026 59мин

  APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. This Thursday APEX Express proudly presents “South Asians and The Labor Justice Movement.” This episode highlights Sandhya Jha, a pastor, founder and former Executive Director of the Oakland Peace Center, and racial, housing, and labor justice activist. In the first half of the episode, we discuss Sandhya’s life, their path into organizing, and what they’re up to now. The second half is dedicated to their recent project with the South Asian American Digital Archive’s Archival Creators Fellowship Program. This episode was interviewed, produced, and edited by Swati Rayasam   Follow @Sandhya Jha on Facebook and check out Sandhya’s website https://sandhyajha.com/    APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Listen to the episode live on KPFA 94.1 in San Francisco, 89.3 in Berkeley, and online at KPFA.org.  References throughout the Show and Links: Without Fear Consulting Interfaith Alliance Oakland Peace Center Book – Blueprint for a Revolution Book – The Selected Writings of Eqbal Ahmad Podcast – Bending Toward Justice: Avatar the Last Airbender for the Global Majority The Alliance of South Asians Taking Action – ASATA Bay Area Solidarity Summer South Asian American Digital Archive Archival Creators Fellowship Program Sandhya Jha’s project, you can listen to all of the oral histories here. Solidarity Forever Online Exhibit Arab Resource and Organizing Center Block the Boat No Tech for Apartheid  University of California Labor Center Equality Labs California Trade Justice Coalition NAFCON – National Alliance for Filipino Concerns Filipino Community Center Madhvi Trivedi Patak Transcript ​[00:00:00]  Miata Tan: Hello and welcome! You are tuning in to APEX Express—a weekly radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host, Miata Tan. Tonight we’re revisiting an episode from our archives, first aired January 5th, 2023. We’re bringing it back this week in honor of South Asian American Heritage Month. This one centers Sandhya Jha — a pastor, organizer, and founder of the Oakland Peace Center — in conversation with APEX producer Swati Rayasam. The first half traces Sandhya’s path into organizing, from a labor campaign at Johns Hopkins to two decades of interfaith and racial justice work. The second half digs into Sandhya’s project with the South Asian American Digital Archive, where she spent a year interviewing South Asian workers inside the labor movement — collecting stories that don’t usually make it into the archive. Here’s Swati Rayasam in conversation with Sandhya Jha. [00:01:00] Swati Rayasam: I’m really excited actually today to talk to Sandhya Jha, who is a really close friend of mine. Hi Sandhya. Hi there. Sandhya is, a Pastor is a consultant and has been working on this really amazing project with the South Asian American Digital Archive that will get into later in the episode. But yeah, Sandhya I’m just really excited to learn more about you and to hear more of your story and, let’s just dive in. [00:01:26] Swati Rayasam: Absolutely. [00:01:27] Swati Rayasam: We should first talk a little bit about how we know each other, you have this long organizing background. I’ve been in the Bay Area for the past seven years and I would be totally lying if I said I have not historically been, or I’m not even currently an active fangirl of yours. You are literally a pastor. You are a movement worker, how did you get involved in organizing? [00:01:53] Sandhya Jha: Yeah. So I am the product of my parents who were generous, compassionate [00:02:00] people who thought about the world beyond themselves, but were never involved in organizing or activism or anything like that. I think for anybody who comes from immigrant backgrounds, it’s hard to tell our stories without naming who we come from. Right. And so my father was Sunil Kumar Jha from the village of Tildanga in West Bengal. My mother, who is still alive is Jeanette Campbell Jha. She is from Glasgow. So I come from a mixed religion and mixed race home. My parents chose not to name me Sandhya Campbell Jha not to give me that kind of grounding, but I was called Sandhya Rani Jha, which is a lot to live up to, well, yes, Rani does mean Queen. But it was actually handed down to me, part of the reason they wanted that middle name was it was my aunt’s name, Durga Rani Upadhyay and she was the one who really [00:03:00] brokered my mother’s acceptance into the Indian family and I think that there was something about being accepted on the Indian side of the family and not for many, many years on the Scottish side. That caused my parents and particularly my mother to double down on making sure I knew who I came from and who I came from was my people in the village of Tildanga. [00:03:23] Sandhya Jha: I grew up in Akron, Ohio, so we immigrated to this country when I was a toddler, in the late 1970s, which was a complicated time for Asian immigrants to be in the Midwest because it was a time that the rust belt was rusting and there was a growing sense that we were the reason. But also I grew up alongside folks who were trying to figure out how to put food on the table. So I think that landscape shaped me in a lot of ways. And I also come from people who grew up in poor working communities. And[00:04:00] when I went off to college, there was an organizing campaign. The board of directors of the university had created a for-profit corporation with the exact same board. [00:04:15] Swati Rayasam: Oh wow. [00:04:16] Sandhya Jha: So that the universities could subcontract all of their catering, all of their custodial work to this… basically Shell corporation. [00:04:28] Swati Rayasam: Are we telling on the university? [00:04:29] Sandhya Jha: Mm, Yeah. Why not? It was Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, and I think that’s relevant because the tension between Black communities next to Johns Hopkins Medical School and the school itself were very real because this was part of a very long history of exploiting community members. So the workers were organizing, and you know, I had read about activism, I cared about it. I paid as much attention as I could for a high school student. But when I got to college, this organizing [00:05:00] campaign was going, and the workers were really clear, Hey, college kids who are excited about this, we do have a role for you. It’s to fill the crowd. It’s to cheer us on. It’s to when we ask you communicate to the university that our well-being matters to you because they will listen to you in different ways. But the campaign centered the workers and was really clear with us about what our role was because we were the folks with all the privilege by getting to be there, right? We had tons of privilege and it was a really good lesson for me. I am so grateful. The first organizing campaign I was a part of was a labor campaign that understood what it meant to center the people who were the most impacted by injustice and I think that shaped the rest of my career. [00:05:46] Swati Rayasam: And that’s so special too because I think for many people who come into organizing, and I will definitely cop to this myself, like coming up and organizing through high school and college level organizing. When you are a student, nobody ever [00:06:00] tells you that actually you are the least useful kind of organizer that exists. Right. You are in this incredibly enclaved community. Your oppressor, the university, all they have to do is wait for you to graduate institutional memory will not keep you. Yeah. Right. And I think that it is, it’s this perfect storm of, you have actually sometimes cool ideas, sometimes very rudimentary ideas, but you also have this turnover issue and you have this sense of self import, which often comes with your teens, early twenties. Yep. As you’re just figuring all of that out. So Yeah, self differentiation, right? It’s a narcissistic phase in our development. . [00:06:46] Swati Rayasam: It absolutely is and I think that’s so important, and I can’t imagine how my life would be shaped if I didn’t have to spend a lot of time unlearning the self import and narcissism that I had gained through student [00:07:00] organizing. [00:07:00] Sandhya Jha: Yeah. No, I am really, really grateful for it. [00:07:02] Sandhya Jha: My first job outta college was working for a member of Congress, which sounds super fancy and pretentious, but, a member of congress from Akron, Ohio. So put that all in perspective. His name, believe it or not, was Tom Sawyer. Oh, wow. What I loved about Tom was back in those days, he believed very strongly that 80% of legislation was nonpartisan and that was the part that he spent most of his time on. He would weigh in with his party, when they were dealing with that 20% pretty consistently. But he was more interested in the stuff that everybody could agree on and I remember for about 15 years after I worked for him, I looked back and found myself thinking that was so naive. How did he not understand where we were about to head with the divisions between the political parties? But at this point in my life, I realize the people I respect most in organizing work keep pointing out that the binary of [00:08:00] left and right actually doesn’t serve us very well. One of my biggest heroes in the movement right now is the Reverend Dr. William Barber, [00:08:07] Swati Rayasam: Hometown hero of mine. Yes. [00:08:09] Sandhya Jha: Poor People’s campaign from North Carolina. And he always talks about how it’s not about right and left. It’s about right and wrong. And it turns out that when we engage in organizing with the awareness that there are huge swaths of things that most of us are well served by, we can do better organizing. And that was actually how Tom was legislating. And at a certain point I realized that my deep passion was around racial justice, but the distinct experience I had in a multi religious household was an awareness of how religion was being used as a weapon. I had an obsession. Every paper in college I wrote was about the Christian coalition, this right wing, organizing body in the nineties. So a friend of mine [00:09:00] said, You know, there’s an interfaith organization working against the Christian Coalition. And it was called the Interfaith Alliance. Her mom had been a superintendent in Washington state in eastern Washington and was a pretty conservative person by my standards. [00:09:18] Sandhya Jha: But, Dr. Chow believed in multiculturalism and believed in teaching evolution. And the Christian coalition had organized to push her out of her position as superintendent and the Interfaith Alliance of Washington State had supported her in that time. [00:09:38] Sandhya Jha: And so Liz said, you know, they’ve got a national chapter, a national office. And that’s where I ended up, cutting my adult organizing teeth which was great because talk about learning lessons for our current moment where religion is being weaponized in ways that are anti-trans, that are anti-queer, that are anti-women, that [00:10:00] are anti reproductive rights, that are anti-immigrant and refugee. I am really grateful to have experienced the power of multi-faith organizing, around a lot of those same issues. So that was what I did in the early two thousands and then I went to seminary and public policy school, and then I ended up out here pastoring a congregation of 10 people in a building of 40,000 square feet. [00:10:29] Sandhya Jha: And long story short, that’s how the Oakland Peace Center was born, was out of this dream of cultivating deeper collaboration among nonprofits who were dedicated to a shared cause. The Oakland Peace Center, which is a collective of 40 different nonprofits committed to dismantling the root causes of violence in our community. I was the founder of that organization and it was when I was pastoring First Christian Church of Oakland that I asked the handful of folks who were members of that church, what they wanted to [00:11:00] contribute to the community, and they said they wanted to contribute peace in the midst of violence. And for a dozen folks to have given birth to a space that in non pandemic years, saw over a hundred thousand people do things like the Lawyers for Black Lives Conference and to do Kingian non-violence training and to be a part of food and clothing distribution, to participate in all the very diverse ways that we can create peace is pretty impressive. [00:11:30] Sandhya Jha: And a couple of years ago, I left the Oakland Peace Center because a colleague of mine said, Anybody can run a non-profit. We need you to do what you’re actually good at, and what she meant by that was we need more people of color doing diversity, equity, and inclusion work that is actually grounded in power analysis. That isn’t just how do we be nicer to each other in the workplace, but how do we recognize the ways that systems of white supremacy [00:12:00] unconsciously often shape the culture of our workplaces? And what do we do to dismantle that white supremacy culture so that we can be building nonprofits and institutions of higher education and faith organizations, and even corporations that are dedicated to our full liberation, our liberation, the lands liberation. [00:12:23] Swati Rayasam: I mean coming, especially from the place that you come in grassroots organizing and in faith based organizing, what is it actually to transition into this kind of consulting space around racial justice and really interface with a lot of people that I feel like as organizers, we don’t really talk to? [00:12:42] Sandhya Jha: One of my favorite things about this shift in my work is I love getting to work with folks who don’t think of themselves as organizers, who, it turns out are organizers, Right. I think we sometimes create a cult of here’s what an organizer looks like, you [00:13:00] have to be a Martin Luther King or a Cesar Chavez and what I love is getting to work with moms and with teenagers and with folks who think of themselves as caring, compassionate, individuals, and when I go into an organization and work with their handful of folks who care about this issue, the DEI team, I get to teach them how to strategically organize. I get to teach them how do you create culture shift over time? I get to teach them how do you figure out who your allies are? How do you figure out how to move people who are neutral? It turns out that there are a lot more organizers out there than we realize if we don’t create one definition of what an organizer needs to look like. [00:13:45] Swati Rayasam: I have been reading this political scholar Eqbal Ahmed, who really talks about the way the burden is on those of us who are deeply committed to movement work, narrow definition people, the burden is really on us to try and [00:14:00] create a liberatory future that feels both achievable. Mm-hmm. and safe for everybody. Because when people engage in mass struggle and in revolution, there are people who are a hundred percent willing to put their lives on the line. People who are willing to die for the cause. And we absolutely need those people. And there are many people along the spectrum who, if you can create a future that feels like it’s within their grasp, they will come with you. [00:14:30] Sandhya Jha: Yep. I teach a lot of organizing classes and have gotten a chance to teach alongside my beloved colleague BK Woodson at Allen Temple Baptist Church, they have a leadership institute there. And one of the books we use is Blueprint for a Revolution by Srđa Popović. And I feel like I learned a lot as we read that book together and thought about how to apply it to the work we’re doing in Oakland. They talked about how by engaging in nonviolent direct action, [00:15:00] they created space for elders to be a part of their work and youth to be a part of their work and families to be a part of their work. By making the movement playful. They gave people hope and gave people courage because dictators are terrified of being mocked. [00:15:17] Swati Rayasam: Yeah, exactly. And I think by being really restrictive or narrow about who we view as actually valuable organizers. And I think labor movements teach us this a lot, right? We really cut ourselves off at the knees on our ability to build a network or to be in touch with the general population, many of whom are more connected than we ever give them credit for. [00:15:41] Sandhya Jha: Yeah. Yep. it’s part of why I love labor organizing. I talk with a lot of people who are disenchanted with organizing who ask me how I can have stayed involved for the past 25 years. And why I’ve been able to stay in it is cuz I’m organizing alongside workers and they have [00:16:00] full lives. And the work that they’re doing in the movement is so that they can live their full lives. And there’s something about having that perspective and recognizing the why all the time instead of getting lost in the weeds of the what. Is so important in this work. I think that has been a big theme of my organizing life is how do we build to the greatest common denominator? As my friend BK often says how do we build towards those shared values that often get erased when we are engaged in the right versus left debate. [00:16:39] Swati Rayasam: Yeah. I think that it is so important and I also think that it’s really hard in this moment of what feels like constant trauma and re trauma. [00:16:51] Swati Rayasam: And to some extent especially when we’re talking about the left right dichotomy there are real concerns [00:17:00] about safety. Yep. And there are real concerns about security and who you are in community with and who you can find even the smallest level of acceptance from to ensure that you won’t have violence visited upon you. And I think that these conversations of united front organizing, Right. trying to bridge across difference mm-hmm. for a shared goal, for a shared liberatory future Yep. Are really important. And they feel kind of impossible to achieve right now. [00:17:31] Sandhya Jha: It’s interesting cuz I think that in many ways that is true. There are a lot of conversations that I think people with privilege expect, people who are marginalized to engage in. And those expectations are unfair, what I found very frustrating was the number of people with a lot of privilege who would be like, Ugh, I just can’t talk to those people. And I’m like, Then who’s going to? Exactly. and so I do think that some of this is about being willing to have [00:18:00] hard conversations in the places where we have privilege and recognizing who’s at actual risk and showing up in ways that are protective of who is at risk. But that doesn’t mean walking away from people who aren’t where we are. Right. Because the fact of the matter is everybody’s on a journey. And I have watched at the same time some of the disposability culture in movements write off people without giving them any way to address harm, repair harm, and find a pathway back into community. [00:18:41] Swati Rayasam: Yeah. And I think that’s why, at least I am feeling really hopeful about, what I’ve seen over the past couple of years, this really important track into transformative justice and restorative justice, to acknowledge that there is harm that has happened, there are harms that happen every day between people. [00:19:00] And also we are all on our own journey to unlearn the things that we have been taught either directly or indirectly by our upbringing, by our environment and that you cannot easily dispose of people and that people are able to come back into community. Now that comes with a very important caveat that like they recognize the harm. Mm-hmm. that. They have done or how they’ve been party to it, that they acknowledge that there is healing work that needs to be done both with the person that they harmed and also probably in internally. [00:19:35] Sandhya Jha: Well, and the community, folks who don’t do RJ on a regular basis tend to skip the community aspect. Yeah. That there is actually repair that needs to be done with community and there’s work community needs to do to figure out how to re-embrace reabsorb people who have done harm in ways that still protect the person who’s been harmed. [00:19:55] Swati Rayasam: Exactly. In ways that do not erase the harm that has happened, but [00:20:00] acknowledge, contextualize it and say, Okay, we are patching this and we are working to move forward in step with each other. Absolutely. [00:20:09] Sandhya Jha: Can I just say that one of the other things that I think you and I have in common is a real passion for bringing joy back into the work of Justice I quote Fabiana Rodriguez a lot on this particular thing, because I was at an event she was doing eons ago, and she looked out at us and most of us were activists and she said, Listen, y ‘all you keep inviting people to a struggle. I’m on your side and I don’t wanna join a struggle. I want to join a party. And that was like a call to arms for me when I heard her say that. I was like, Oh my gosh, you’re right. We are so much more fun. Like, I’ve hung out with people who are anti-trans and anti queer and anti-immigrant and anti refugee. They are not fun people. No, no. We have all of the best parties. So I don’t know why we don’t [00:21:00] capitalize on that more. So I think the role of joy and justice is so important. And this is why I was so excited to have you on the podcast that I launched recently. [00:21:11] Sandhya Jha: Right. Bending Towards Justice Avatar the last Airbender for the Global Majority. [00:21:15] Swati Rayasam: So literally like bringing it together. Two of my favorite things right, is like TV shows, wholesome TV shows like Avatar, The Last Airbender that I deeply love and organizing. Yes. All the work that I love. And I think it’s true You know, what is actually really the important work is to work to build toward a future that is desirable Yep. That people want to be a part of. Yeah. That people can see happen. Yeah. And I think that is a lot of the difficulty that I have seen in some organizing circles. We are so well versed in what we are against and all of the things that are bad that so many people have a really hard time seeing or visioning or communicating [00:22:00] what it is that we are fighting for. Yeah. Right. And it’s not enough to say, I’m fighting for a world where we can all be safe. Right. Yeah. I’m not, I’m fighting for a world where we can all take long naps in the middle of the day if we’d like to do that. Right. Yeah. But like really building and visioning that future of like, in this world in which we are all safe, there will be harm that happens. How do we deal with that? Yeah. What do we do with that? How do we make sure that it is able to keep everybody safe and also able to account for the times in which it is not able to keep everybody safe. [00:22:38] Sandhya Jha: Visionary does not have to mean naive. And we need it to be visionary. And sometimes I forget to do the visionary stuff. I’ve got a colleague, Dave Bell, he’s a farmer who is also an anti-racism trainer and we do a lot of work together. He’s a white guy who lives in White Swan, Washington, on the reservation and I remember being at a training with him and I [00:23:00] was all fired up and I was so excited about the conversations we were having and the people were really ready to do the hard work and roll up their sleeves. And Dave says to them, I would like to not have to do this work. And I’m like, What is he talking about? This is amazing. We’re doing such good work. And he says, I would like for us not to have to talk about racism all the time. I would rather be farming. I would rather be, taking care of the cows in my field. [00:23:26] Sandhya Jha: I would rather be talking about my pottery work that I’m doing badly but learning how to do, I would rather be doing anything than have this conversation. But I don’t get to be on the farm with the wheat, with the cows, with my bad pottery until we figured out how to do this anti-racism work. And it was a really humbling moment for me because I also get into that like I’m an organizer, that’s my identity space. And it was this reminder of Dave’s doing this. So he gets to live in a world where he gets to hang out in the fields and he [00:24:00] gets to, love on the cows. There’s something about being reminded that we’re doing this so that eventually we don’t have to do it. That I think is actually visionary in its own way and it’s important. [00:24:12] Swati Rayasam: Moving into a little bit more of the grit of like why I asked you to be on the show today. I met you originally when I moved to the Bay Area when you were the executive director of the Oakland Peace Center because At that time I was doing organizing work with the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, which is a 20 year old bay area based organization, that was really founded around the Laki Reddy Bali Reddy sex trafficking. Yep. Caste and labor exploitation case that happened in Berkeley in 1999. And I was just so thrilled to be around and have in community so many rad desis. And you also did work with ASATA, right. Historically and are actively doing work with us. [00:24:56] Sandhya Jha: Absolutely. One of the places I think I invested the most [00:25:00] energy in where we got to spend a lot of quality time in the kitchen was one of the projects, Bay Area Solidarity Summer, an organizing institute, camp, however you wanna refer to it. [00:25:10] Swati Rayasam: Political education, Summer camp. [00:25:12] Swati Rayasam: Yeah, exactly. For young South Asian Americans who are committed to activism. What I think was the most beautiful part of that program when I was involved in it, and it’s still the case today, is for young South Asians who think that they’re the only ones who care about justice issues, who haven’t met other people, who are South Asian, and identify as justice seekers first to meet each other and realize that there are people just like them. Then to look around and realize that those of us who are usually 10, 15, 20 years older than them are also committed to the work and have been doing it for decades. And then for them to get exposed to the long history of radical visionary organizing and activism of South [00:26:00] Asians here in the US and also in the homelands of India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, and diasporic countries all over the world. [00:26:13] Sandhya Jha: There’s something about realizing, Oh, you have contemporaries, oh, you have elders, oh, you have ancestors. Mm-hmm. Especially in the face of the model minority lie that so many of us have had imposed on us, this lie that all we are all we’re supposed to be is cogs in this larger capitalist machine that are non disruptive, which is why we’re allowed to survive. And if we are non disruptive enough, we might even be able to be comfortable. And to discover that there’s more to our story than that is so exciting and I love, love, love being a part of that. [00:26:52] Swati Rayasam: Yeah. I think that is like fundamentally one of the most important kind of activities that [00:27:00] happens in the ASATA universe, I was a kid who also grew up thinking that there were no other South Asians like me, or there were no other folks who were interested in justice. I spent a lot of time doing, reproductive and queer justice in the south; I always think about what would it have meant if I came in, BASS for 18 to 24 year olds. Yep. what would it have meant if I had come in at a fresh 18 and been able to basically be apprised of the fact that I have this history Yeah. That it’s not just me. And that actually, immigration and white supremacy and neo-colonial culture has created this project of assimilation that all of our parents have been in on, in a way to survive Yeah. And to be safe. And I tell my, I tell my mom that a lot because she’s always a little surprised about the organizing work that I do. And I was just like, Your job was to survive. My job is to liberate. Yeah. [00:28:00] You know? Yeah. And I could not do that if you were not so focused on creating that environment for me. [00:28:07] Swati Rayasam: I love that. [00:28:07] Swati Rayasam: we’ll drop in the show notes, but, BASS – Bay Area Solidarity Summer is solidaritysummer.org. So we’ll put that in the show notes as well as ASATA, the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action is ASATA.org. And yeah, I think that is a really good segue into how we got involved in this amazing project. [00:28:31] Swati Rayasam: You’re tuned in to APEX express at 94.1 KPFA and 89.3, KPFB in Berkeley. And [email protected]. [00:28:43] Swati Rayasam: I think it was Fall 2021 that you and I were talking. Yep. And you were telling me that you were involved in this amazing archival fellowship project. Is run by the South Asian American Digital Archive and [00:29:00] that you were going to do your project about labor. Mm-hmm. and South Asians. Yep. And my immediate, incredibly naive response was, how many South Asians are there in labor? [00:29:12] Sandhya Jha: Exactly. And it’s not naive. It’s interesting cuz I think that this project actually emerged out of my favorite part of BASS, which was when the young adults would ask what their opportunities were in the world of justice. And I would say, you know, there’s a place for us in labor justice. It had never crossed most of their minds. Right. We don’t think of ourselves as having a role especially in formalized unions. And so SAADA, the South Asian American Digital Archives has an archival fellows project. And the whole purpose of it is to diversify their archives and collect the stories that are usually overlooked in the telling of South Asian American stories. [00:29:56] Sandhya Jha: And they have done a great job over the years of collecting the [00:30:00] stories of informal organizing, like the Punjabi Taxi Drivers campaign, the Bangladeshi Nail Workers Campaign. Those were informal labor organizing campaigns. That have been really well archived and they’re amazing stories. I wanted to make sure that the next generation of South Asian activists knew about the South Asians who were actually part of the formal organized labor movement. [00:30:30] Sandhya Jha: And so I spent this past year interviewing, maybe a half a dozen or so South Asian American workers. Generally, not always, but mostly what would be classified as low wage workers who found a pathway into formal organizing bodies, unite here or the building trades or any number of the formal unions that keep [00:31:00] the labor movement alive across the country today. And I’m really proud of the fact that we do have South Asian workers who have moved up the ranks to be official organizers or to be at negotiating tables. And so that’s part of the story I thought it was worth us telling. [00:31:19] Swati Rayasam: And I am, I’m so excited that we get to dive deeper into this project and I really love your framing too, around the three large bins that you have, solidarity, spirit and struggle. [00:31:34] Swati Rayasam: Right? Yeah. Yeah. [00:31:35] Sandhya Jha: I started out with certain assumptions about what I was going to learn, partly because I’ve been doing labor solidarity work for 25 years at this point. I really thought I knew what I was gonna hear. And what I discovered was there were these consistent themes across, the interviews. that there were these notions of, Oh, what’s meaningful to me is [00:32:00] getting to organize across cultures, getting to organize with people who, on the surface and even deep down are very different than me, but we share this vision of what our lives can be. And so that solidarity message I found really powerful. Also, and admittedly because I come out of a spiritual background, was probably looking for it. I was really struck by how many of the interviews ended up talking about the role of spirituality and shaping people’s values. And in a couple of instances, organizers said, what my religion taught me was that religion needs to be challenged. And building up that muscle was what helped me challenge systems of injustice in other places. But others said that their journey with their faith tradition was what guided them into the work of labor organizing. [00:32:52] Sandhya Jha: And then that third bucket of struggle, I think is the lived experience of how [00:33:00] hard it is to take on oppressive systems of capitalism, how hard it is to take on decks that are stacked against us and what it means to have somewhere to turn in the midst of those struggles. I will say there were also a couple of lessons I was surprised by because my South Asian identity is so central to my organizing work, I was expecting to collect stories of people who were proud South Asians, who were also proud to be involved in the labor movement. And I assumed that they would see connections between those things because I certainly do. But what I discovered is for the most part, they were like, Yeah, I’m South Asian. I’m not saying that doesn’t matter, but it’s not super relevant to my organizing work. My organizing work is about [00:34:00] our cross-cultural solidarity. And that was something I hadn’t been expecting that emerged as I did those interviews. Interesting. And I’m really grateful that the South Asian American Digital Archives likes telling all of the stories because I think I promised them that what they were going to get was, we’re proud to be South Asian organizers. And what I got was, yeah, we’re South Asian, we’re proud to be organizers. And the that SAADA is like, yeah, that’s part of our story too. [00:34:28] Swati Rayasam: Yeah. And I think that’s, that I think is incredibly important. We have this really, amazing series of audio clips from your SAADA interviews that really represent a lot of the themes that you were highlighting about solidarity, spirit, and struggle. And I’m just really excited to play them as we talk through these larger themes in your larger project and the experience of South Asian labor organizers. [00:34:55] Swati Rayasam: This clip is from somebody that you and I both know, which [00:35:00] is Prem Pariyar. I was so thrilled that Prem was a part of your project. I think Prem is an incredible organizer, so yeah tell our listeners a little bit about Prem. Prem [00:35:09] Sandhya Jha: It was pretty exciting to get to work with him you know, he moved here from Nepal and in Nepal he had been a Dalit activist and he came to the United States and had this notion that in the United States there is no caste and he was disabused of that notion very quickly as a restaurant worker dealing with anti Nepali bias in Indian restaurants, dealing with caste bias in Nepali restaurants, well dealing with Caste bias in all the restaurants. [00:35:35] Swati Rayasam: Hey, everyone, Narrator Swati here, I just wanted to put in an explanatory comma, a la W Kamau Bell and Hari Kondabolu to talk about some terms you just heard. Sandhya referenced that Prem was a Dalit activist and also talked about Caste bias. For those of you who don’t know, Caste is a violent system of oppression and exclusion, which governs social status in many south Asian countries, although it is [00:36:00] most commonly associated with India. It works on an axis of purity and pollution, and it’s hereditary. At the top of the caste system are Brahmins, by the way Sandhya and I are both Brahmin, and not even at the bottom, but completely outside of the system are Dalits who were previously referred to by the slur untouchable and Adivasis who are indigenous to South Asia. [00:36:25] Swati Rayasam: Despite being “illegal” Caste bias, Caste Oppression, Caste apartheid, are still prevalent, both in South Asia and as Sandhya references, in the United States. It manifests in many ways that people experience racial injustice, via socioeconomic inequality, systemic and interpersonal violence, occupation, and through the determination of marriage and other relationships. You can learn more at EqualityLabs.org and APEX currently has a show in the works that delves into this more deeply. Now. Back to Sandhya [00:36:58] Sandhya Jha: What is [00:37:00] delightful to me is Prem went on to get an MSW and is building out amazing mental health resources for Dalit communities for the Nepali community. Seeking to build out a program where there are more and more people in Nepal who are trained with MSW skills. [00:37:21] Sandhya Jha: I met with one of his professors from CSU East Bay where he got his degree and she said, You know, that the entire Cal State system is adding caste to its anti-discrimination policies thanks to the work he started at CSU East Bay. And it was really beautiful to hear that because the focus of my conversations with him were more around how his experiences in the restaurants led him into the solidarity work with nail salon workers. [00:37:53] Swati Rayasam: To just, kick back to the caste abolition work that Prem has been doing, that caste abolition work [00:38:00] at CSU East Bay has been such critical work in these ongoing conversations around caste that have been in the South Asian community primarily, but have been percolating elsewhere. [00:38:13] Swati Rayasam: You know, the state of California filed a lawsuit against Cisco systems Yep. For caste discrimination in their workplace and there have been all these conversations around caste and tech work and interplay that with the no tech for apartheid work. Right. That has been happening in Palestinian liberation circles. Yeah. And really building that solidarity movement. So I think that Prem is an absolute powerhouse Yeah. In that regard. But yeah, let’s listen to this clip. [00:38:42] Prem: During that time, I got connected with other community organizer, like workers group. I got connected and so I was connected with nail salon workers, who were exploited at their workplace and with them, [00:39:00] I got to go to the capital in Sacramento. And so I thought I need to advocate for the restaurant workers. that was my first experience, like working with other workers and with the assembly members and like other other policy makers I shared what is happening what kinds of discrimination happening at the workplace. So I advocated for the restaurant workers at that time. I shared my stories and I supported the rights of nail salon workers. I was there to support them and they supported me as well, and it was wonderful. And finally that advocacy worked. And the bill was drafted and it was passed finally. And so it was huge achievement at that time. [00:39:49] Swati Rayasam: I love that. I think that is such a perfect story of when you win, we all win. [00:39:56] Sandhya Jha: And what I also love about it is he goes on [00:40:00] to talk about how he has remained in relationship with those nail salon workers. That they show up for each other, that they take each other food, that they show up to each other’s baby showers and birthday parties, and there’s this sense of community that emerges out of this shared struggle. And so that’s a cross-cultural campaign. They were mostly Vietnamese. There were some Bangladeshi nail salon workers, but it was mostly people from a different culture than his. [00:40:27] Sandhya Jha: But somebody at the Asian Health Services program that he was at, saw his gifts, saw his passion, and he really responded to that in exactly, the most powerful way. I can imagine. [00:40:38] Swati Rayasam: And I think one of the nice things as well about that is that person at Asian Health Services connected Prem in and the Nail Salon Worker group, California Healthy Nail Salon Collaborative, Prem came from Nepal, I’m not sure, but the extent to which his organizing background and how comfortable he was in the US organizing space around labor [00:41:00] issues was probably significantly less that worker group took it upon themselves when they saw Prem come in to say, Oh, you are advocating on behalf of restaurant workers. Great. Why don’t you join us? Let’s help support and so the nail salon workers saw Prem, saw solidarity with Prem and said, It is our responsibility mm-hmm to bring you into this space to connect you in and to move in, struggle together. Yeah. Toward our shared goals of safety, of health, of rights. Yep. [00:41:35] Sandhya Jha: Exactly. [00:41:36] Swati Rayasam: So, we have this clip from Daljit, tell me a little bit about Daljit. Daljit [00:41:42] Sandhya Jha: Yeah. Daljit was an attorney who now reads tarot for people because she needed a break from the toxicity of that career and how it was taking her away from her family. Daljit is a deeply spiritual person and, [00:42:00] as I mentioned before, this theme of spirit showed up in some really beautiful ways in some of the interviews. I loved the way she understood her Sikh tradition as foundationally being connected with the land and foundationally connected with the people who work the land. [00:42:15] Daljit: Agriculture is our culture and the religion that I was born into, Siki, the founder of that faith was a farmer. And so a lot of the scripture, the analogies, the metaphors, the poetry, the music, the songs, the boon, the traditional folk songs, that can be taunting and teasing banter, all that stuff the land is the framework for that. And my most favorite line from the Guru Granth Sahib, our holy book, is, [speaks Punjabi] and that basically means that, the waters our guru, the airs our father, but our mother is Earth. And that’s the greatest of all , and that’s adherence to ecosystem. That’s the [00:43:00] indigenous Cosmo vision that should be paramount. And that’s what I try to teach my children. And so I think that’s what I was taught as a kid without necessarily being able to pinpoint it, but it was just infused throughout our songs, our music, our food, the Harvest, there’s two times a year that our celebrations, whether it Baisakhi or Lohri. It’s so connected to the harvest and what is coming out of the soil or not. And you’re connected to the cycles of nature. [00:43:28] Swati Rayasam: The connection between nature land, spirituality the way that it shows up in so many faith backgrounds and so many faith organizers, I think is really, really beautiful. [00:43:41] Sandhya Jha: And I love that Daljit Kaursoni who was raised in this tradition, has found her way to Buddhism and is raising her kids with those connections, but without ever losing this grounding in the liberation of the land, the liberation of the [00:44:00] people. [00:44:00] Sandhya Jha: And for that to be a key element of her spirituality, even as her spirituality evolves, I think it’s pretty powerful. Tafadar [00:44:08] Sandhya Jha: One of the other people I got to interview ,Tafadar, he’s a Bangladeshi American in the building trades and is a deeply committed Marxist. For me, this was a particularly exciting interview because I’m Bengali, so from West Bengal, before partition, Bangladesh and what’s now West Bengal, were one state. And so it was fun to get to talk with him and to say, Hey, this is our legacy as Bengalis is radical worker organizing. [00:44:40] Sandhya Jha: And I remember saying to him, Some people in the building trades are not super excited to be working with brown people. And some people in the building trades are a little biased against women. And as a very, very progressive South Asian? How do you navigate that [00:45:00] space? [00:45:00] Sandhya Jha: And he said, Here’s the thing is, yeah, I organize alongside some moderate to conservative white folks from New Jersey and he said, but in the building trades, if that moderate to conservative white guy from New Jersey decides he doesn’t like my feminist politics, or he doesn’t like my brown skin, if he decides that’s a reason not to train me, he might die. And it was really interesting because even though I’ve been doing labor justice work for a long time, it was one of those moments I was like, Oh, right. Your work is very dangerous and you all have to rely on each other whether you like each other or not. That is the magic of organizing that no one ever talks about. This is why we can do cross class, cross-cultural work because literally you have to trust each other with your lives. Right. That was a really clarifying moment for me. And it was one of those interesting moments where I was like, [00:46:00] Solidarity is not a romantic thing. Uh, it is very much a matter of life and death. [00:46:05] Sandhya Jha: And I think that is really important and that exact thing that you brought up, you don’t even have to necessarily trust somebody. Right. But you do need them. Yep. Right. And like that really clear understanding that like your fates are intertwined and it is truly in everybody’s best interest. If you are trained well, irrespective of whether or not at lunch, I’m interested in sitting anywhere near you. I think that’s really great. [00:46:32] Sandhya Jha: One of the things that was really exciting about talking with Tafadar was the reminder that labor organizing and formal union organizing at its best can be in solidarity with other movements really worker justice and housing justice and racial justice are inseparable, on some level. And so, one of the most inspiring stories I got to hear across all of these interviews [00:47:00] was a campaign that brought together folks across the anti- gentrification, the immigrant rights, and the labor justice movement. [00:47:14] Tafadar: It’s ironic, building affordable housing with deadly exploitation. And, um, to do this, the de blassio administration, they embark on massive major rezonings of poor areas to relax the local zoning laws to be able to bring in these developments. And a couple of years ago, my, my union in local 79’s. Took a very sharp turn towards a community organizing approach because labor can’t win on our own, and that’s the perspective that all of labor should adopt. In order to fight against the sweatshops in our industry. We united with a lot of community organizations in the South Bronx. [00:47:53] Tafadar: We formed the South Bronx, Safe Southern Boulevard Coalition. And along with these groups, we [00:48:00] protested and did a whole lot of activism, lobbying, community organizing to stop the rezoning of Southern Boulevard, which is a massive stretch in the South Bronx, while the De Blassio administration had succeeded in another part of the Bronx where there’s like massive displacement still underway right now. And we were determined to stop it there. And it was a beautiful thing that we can unite because on our end as labor, we had to prevent all these trash companies from coming in and exploiting workers. And we were working with these tenants who are afraid of being displaced. And people generally, we do need revitalization of our neighborhoods. We do need investment. We do need things to be changed and made better. For us. If it’s not for us, if it’s done without us, then eventually we’re not even gonna be here anymore. So we had that alliance going on and not only did we manage to stop that rezoning, we also educated the local city councilman on why his position was wrong and supporting the rezoning. And he eventually completely flipped this [00:49:00] position. And now chairs the land use committee of the city council from the perspective that we educated him on, which it’s just been a very interesting dynamic. But, there’s a lot of rezoning battles all over the city that’s like the main front of anti gentrification struggles. And I’ve been watching those kinds of campaigns go on since I began organizing about 15, 16. I’ve seen very different approaches to them, but I’ve never seen any model really work until that one kicked in where Labor and the community came together. So that was one of my favorite campaigns because of that lesson that we were able to concretely put into practice and set as an example for not only for community movements all over New York City, but also for Labor. [00:49:43] Sandhya Jha: I think this hit me in particular because I’ve done so much work around antis displacement in Oakland, and my experience has been. [00:49:53] Sandhya Jha: That while for most of us on the ground, the connection between housing justice and labor justice is really clear. When you [00:50:00] start getting into the technical policy issues and the funding issues, the folks who are running labor and housing justice or affordable housing, struggle to find ways to collaborate. And it’s been one of my consistent heartbreaks for at least a decade at this point because I work at the intersection of those things and sometimes I despair of us being able to find ways to move forward together. And so to hear a story like this one and to be reminded at core, those justice issues can and must be we already knew, must be, but actually can function together to build a better community. That was actually really life giving for me to hear. [00:50:45] Swati Rayasam: Yeah. I a hundred percent agree. And I think the point that Tafadar as well brings in the clip of just saying we knew that we could do this, but we knew we couldn’t do this without community organizing. Right? Yeah. That labor couldn’t do this alone. Yeah. [00:51:00] And I think that is a lot of what, when we talk about solidarity politics, it’s not just a backdoor way of inclusion for inclusion’s sake, we have to all do this. Actually, it is integral that all of us are involved in any of these campaigns because it impacts all of us. And because we are not going to win with only a single constituency and in the very same way that, Tafadar was identifying that labor couldn’t do that alone. in community organizing spaces that you and I have been in mm-hmm. , like we are constantly talking about how we cannot do any of this without labor. Yep. And I think a beautiful example of that is the Block the Boat campaign yeah that the Arab Resource Organizing Center, started back in 2014 and then again during 2021 to block the Zim ship from the port of Oakland. And like this community organization [00:52:00] AROC could not do that without working with the longshoreman to collaborate with the port workers. And I think that when we see the marriage of community organizing and labor organizing, that is when we get the power of grassroots organizing. [00:52:16] Sandhya Jha: Something I wanna mention about the SAADA Fellowship that I was really grateful for: two things. First off, they did a really good job of making sure we got trained in grassroots oral history. So they took really seriously what it meant for this to be justice work. And they made sure we had exposure to methodology that was gonna lift up and honor and foster the voices of people whose stories don’t get heard often enough. And that was a really big deal to me. The other thing is they made sure that we had an advisory board, people who are in this [00:53:00] work who could help us, figure out who to talk with, who could help us build out an event strategy. And you helped me build out my advisory committee. Anibel Ferris-Comelo who is with the University of California Labor Center, [00:53:14] Swati Rayasam: Prem Pariyar, a Nepali Dalit restaurant worker, organizer pushing for Caste as a protected category with Equality Labs, a Dalit feminist organization, and a social worker supporting the mental health needs of his and many other South Asian communities in Alameda county. [00:53:31] Swati Rayasam: Will Jamil Wiltchko with the California Trade Justice Coalition, Terry Valen who I did a lot of organizing with at the beginning of the pandemic, around the struggles that seafarers were facing with the onset of COVID-19. And he’s the organizational director of the Filipino Community Center in San Francisco. The president of NAFCON which is the National Alliance for Filipino Concerns and just an all in all amazing organizer [00:53:57] Sandhya Jha: the last thing I wanna mention [00:54:00] is SAADA also helped me set up a digital exhibit with Art by Madhvi Trivedi Patak and I wanted to give them a shoutout because they’re an incredible artist, but also they grew up in a working class family and didn’t get exposed to what it looks like to do labor justice. And so as they developed the artwork to go with the digital exhibit, they got to experience the possibilities of labor solidarity that they hadn’t gotten to experience as a child. And so I really loved that Madhvi was a part of this project as well [00:54:38] Swati Rayasam: All of the clips that you shared really identifying, again, these like huge fundamental pillars of solidarity and spirit and struggle. these clips were amazing. They are so rich and so layered with all of these people’s varying and different experiences. Really showing in [00:55:00] all of these different walks of life at all of these ages with all of these experiences, that all of these people have this unified and shared identity in struggle, in spirit, and in solidarity for liberation. [00:55:14] Sandhya Jha: And one of the things that I think is worth celebrating is whether they see it as part of their South Asian identity or not. People who do identify as South Asian now have this resource that says there’s a home for you in the labor movement. Yes, there are. There is a value to your voice. There is a value to your wisdom, there’s a value to your experience in the labor movement. [00:55:36] Swati Rayasam: I think it’s a beautiful project. Sandhya, I think it has been an amazing amount of work I’ve watched you do over the past year. These stories are so wonderful. I really encourage people to check it out. Where can they find your project? [00:55:49] Sandhya Jha: The website’s www.saada.org/acfp [00:56:00] /exhibit/solidarity-forever. We’ll put that in the notes. We’ll definitely put that in the show notes. [00:56:05] Swati Rayasam: I just wanna make sure that we replug your podcast Bending Toward Justice Avatar, The Last Air Bender for the Global Majority and you can find that at tinyurl.com slash ATLA podcast, Capital P (tinyurl.com/ATLAPodcast). And then the last thing that I also wanna make sure that we plug is Without Fear Consulting. [00:56:27] Sandhya Jha: I love working with folks who know that their organization could be a little more liberative, and are, just not quite sure where to start. I love working with a team of folks who want to be about the work of incorporating diversity, equity, and inclusion into the DNA of their organization and I love setting them up so that they can keep doing that long after I’m working with them. So please do find me withoutfearconsulting.com. If you’re interested in that. [00:56:58] Swati Rayasam: Amazing. Sandhya [00:57:00] Jha, Pastor, Racial Justice consultant, podcast host, archivist, singer songwriter, amazing cook. You can do it all. I think you deserve a nap. it has been amazing talking to you. I am so glad to be able to hear about your project and also to hear a lot more about your life. [00:57:23] Sandhya Jha: Yay. Thank you so much. [00:57:25] Miata Tan: That was Swati Rayasam in conversation with Sandhya Jha. As Swati mentioned, you can learn more about her work in the show notes at kpfa.org/program/apex-express. Speaking of Swati — she’s currently working on an episode marking the 25th anniversary of 9/11, out in early September. It’ll cover the work of the South Asian Coalition, a national network of organizations working together on South Asian American movement building. Keep an eye out for that one. This episode originally aired January 5th, 2023 — we’re re-airing it this week in honor of South Asian American Heritage Month. This is APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, airing every Thursday evening at 7pm. Thank you for tuning in tonight. APEX Express is a proud member of Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality. A network focused on long-term movement building, capacity infrastructure, and leadership support for Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders committed to social justice. Learn more at AACRE.org This program produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s episode was produced by Swati Rayasam. Get some rest y’all. The post APEX Express – 7.16.26 – South Asians and The Labor Justice Movement appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 7.9.26 – Connie Wun & Think Twice 09.07.2026 41мин

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Host Miko Lee speaks with Dr. Connie Wun and we get to hear her new podcast Think Twice. The post APEX Express – 7.9.26 – Connie Wun & Think Twice appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 7.2.26 – International Youth Movements 02.07.2026 59мин

  APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. Over the past few years, a series of popular uprisings across the world have been described by mainstream media as “Gen-Z Uprisings” – movements led by young people and described in western media as generally being against government corruption. These movements have been most notably visible in our own media due to their use of technology, including platforms like Discord and TikTok, and internationally consistent adoption of pop culture symbolism, like the flag of the “straw hat pirates,” a black flag depicting a grinning jolly roger wearing a straw hat. The flag is the banner of the protagonists of the long-running hit anime series One Piece whose adventures often find them coming to the defense of marginalized communities around their world. But these movements didn’t come out of nowhere (or the internet for that matter). Understanding their origins – and the elections that have resulted from their successes – can shed light both onto the international struggle against authoritarianism and the challenges we face building an alternative. In this episode we are looking at two countries, Nepal and Bangladesh, where popular uprisings in the summer of 2024 and fall of 2025 have led to elections this year. In this episode, we are joined by two US based organizers, Sharmin Hossain and Samir Shrestha, whose work as part of South Asian diasporas has rooted them in movement work here in the US while maintaining relationships and solidarity abroad. Sharmin Hossain is a Bangladeshi Muslim organizer from Queens, New York, who is currently the Organizing Director for 18 Million Rising. To learn more about 18 Million Rising, check out their site at www.18millionrising.org. Follow Sharmin on all platforms at @sharminultra Samir Shrestha belongs to the indigenous Newari tribe of Nepal, where he was born. He has spent the last 18 years involved in movement work here in the US. To learn more about The Ruckus Society and request a training, visit: www.ruckus.org/training-action-support/training-requests/ To learn more about Convergence Magazine and the Block and Build Podcast, follow them at @_convergencemag and @blockandbuildpod. Check out Covergence’s work at www.convergencemag.com. Transcript Swati Rayasam: [00:00:00] welcome fellow travelers to Apex Express. It’s been a minute, but in case you don’t remember, my name is Swati Rayasam, and I’m gonna be your conductor tonight. I have been very excited about this week’s episode for a few months because tonight Apex is featuring Convergence Magazine’s Block and Build podcast. Block and Build is creating a roadmap for the movement that’s working to block the impacts of [00:01:00] rising authoritarianism while building the strength and resilience of the broad front that we need to win. And both the team at Convergence and the guests for tonight’s show are close comrades and friends of Apex. On this episode, Cayden Mak, podcast host and editor-in-chief of Convergence, is joined by Samir Shrestha and Sharmin Hossain, two US-based organizers from the South Asian diaspora, Nepal and Bangladesh respectively. Sharmin and Samir will talk about the history and continued struggles of the international Gen Z uprisings, which have only really made a blip in Western media coverage. They’ll discuss the history of those movements and the political conditions which created them, as well as help us understand how Americans can be in meaningful solidarity with people’s movements abroad. Without further ado, I’ll hand it over to Cayden. Cayden: Over the past few years, a series of popular uprisings across the world have been described by mainstream media as the Gen Z uprisings, movements led by young people and described in Western media as [00:02:00] generally being against government corruption. These movements have been most notably visible in our own media due to their use of technology, including platforms like Discord and TikTok, and internationally consistent adoption of pop culture symbolism. but these movements didn’t come out of nowhere, or out of just the internet, for that matter. Understanding their origins and the elections that have resulted from their successes can shed light both onto the international struggle against authoritarianism and the challenges that we face building an alternative. In this episode, we’re looking at two countries in particular, Nepal and Bangladesh, where popular uprisings in the summer of 2024 and fall of 2025 have led to elections this year. I was recently joined by two US-based organizers, Sharmin Hossain and Samir Shrestha, whose work as part of the South Asian diaspora has rooted them in movement work here in the US while maintaining relationships and solidarity abroad. Sharmin Hossain is a Bangladeshi Muslim organizer from Queens, New York, who’s currently the organizing director for 18 Million Rising. Sharmin, thanks so much for joining us today  Sharmin: Thank you for having me. I love Convergence.  Cayden: Thank you. [00:03:00] And, Samir Shrestha belongs to the indigenous Newari tribe of Nepal, where he was born. He spent the past 18 years involved in movement work here in the US, and Samir, it’s really good to see you this morning.  Samir: So good to see you too, Cayden.  Cayden: Well, to start us off, let’s try and set some context Sharmin. I’m wondering if you can give us kind of a quick gloss of the 2024 uprisings in Bangladesh, where Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina and her party were ousted from power. What are the sort of themes of the protests, and then the way that the state responded, and where are we kind of now? Sharmin: Wow, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. It’s an honor to talk about my country and all the amazing things that happened, because I think the Global South really forges, like, new possibilities as far as, like, what we can do and, and consolidate as far as power goes. So today is actually March 26th, and it’s Bangladeshi Independence Day, coincidentally. Cayden: Happy independence Day.  Sharmin: Happy Independence Day. I find it very serendipitous for us to delve into this layered and complex history, um, of the student movement. So [00:04:00] the Bangladesh student protests of July 2024, were deeply rooted in systemic inequalities that the young working class and the poor faced. Nearly 32 million young people were actually out of the workforce, or education in a population of a country of 170 million. So that’s a pretty significant number. And so that issue was a focal point for widespread discontent in the country. In July of 2024, the High Court of Bangladesh actually reinstated a quota system for government jobs after an appeal was made when the then-ruling Hasina government abolished the quota system, um because in 2018 she faced a lot of pressure from student protesters. But this quota system is really interesting, and it represents a lot. It reserved 30% of government jobs for descendants of freedom fighters. And in Bangladeshi history, that’s a very complex and layered identity. Millions of our [00:05:00] ancestors actually fought in the liberation war against the US-backed Pakistani military, and the Bangladeshi Liberation War, and genocide in Bangladesh actually resulted in the death of over three million people who sacrificed for the birth of our nation. And so for the Hasina government, the quota system was actually what she used to appoint a lot of her loyalists and her supporters to high levels of government, the military, and it basically created the political ecosystem for the Awami League, her party, to maintain dominance. And the Awami League actually was the party that once led the liberation struggle, and over the course of 15 years, we actually saw how much they consolidated power through political repression, the Digital Security Acts that was surveilling and targeting freedom of speech, as well as the corruption and fear that they [00:06:00] stoked against their opposition. And these government jobs, like most of us, it represents many things. It represents the government’s responsibility to take care of poor people, um, economic and political opportunity, and it also represents, like, the corruption and the authoritarian rule of the Awami League, and how they were rigging elections, and how the court systems, and even entrance exams for the Bangladeshi civil service, were actually regularly leaked and compromised. And so -within that background, that’s when you have the Students Against Discrimination movement take the streets in July demanding fair access to government jobs. And things actually got violent really fast. Within seven days, nearly 174 people were murdered, and thousands were injured. There was an indefinite curfew, social media blackouts, and then a military occupation with shoot on sight orders. And of course, the bullets that were raining upon, Bangladeshis were US, [00:07:00] arms. So students were terrorized by these vigilante groups that were collaborating with the Bangladeshi police. And these student groups were actually organized by the Bangladeshi Awami League. These student groups were notorious for repressing student elections, sexually assaulting students, um really threatening people that were running for student elections. And so there’s already this, like, vigilante ecosystem that exists within the campuses that was weaponized during the student protests. And then you have a climax moment on July 14th. Sheikh Hasina went on television accusing the students of being Razakars, and Razakars are collaborators of the Pakistani army, and it’s a very derogatory term in Bangladesh, and it refers to people who support the Pakistani military’s operation to suppress the Bangladeshi Liberation War. They’re also accused of heinous crimes. And so when students were accused of being Razakars, it, like, [00:08:00] lit a fire. Millions took the streets that day, and they were like, “Oh, hell no.” Like, “How dare she disrespect us?” While there’s thousands of people who are on the streets, blood, everywhere. Rickshaw wallas are having to pull students into hospitals. There’s just so much violence happening on the ground. And so on that National Day of Action, July 15th, clashes happen. Multiple deaths are live-streamed, and one of them, Abu Sayeed, he was a university student at Rangpur University in northwest Bangladesh, really galvanized the country because we watched this student, who is not armed, surrender and get sh- shot, by the Bangladeshi police. And we know what these spontaneous moments of violence do to the public, right? It usually always sets fire to another wave of social protests and action. And so then millions start marching to Sheikh Hasina’s home, and [00:09:00] really, her brutal and arrogant response sealed her fate. And the protesters, and at this point, this is a populist movement, millions of people that are rickshaw wallas, working-class people, students, teachers, are taking the streets, marching towards her house. And they demand her resignation. And on August 5th, within 36 days of the movement, she resigns and flees to India, our neighboring country. Over 1,400 people have been killed, under her brutal repression. And so that’s some of the background of the student movement, and we can talk more about some of the dynamics of it. Cayden: Yeah, that’s super helpful, and I think reflecting on the ways in which also the sort of, like, escalation on the part of the government is, I think, a really important story here, for sure. Samir, I’ll also now turn it to you. What should our listeners know about last fall’s uprisings in Nepal, which also ousted the sitting government of, K.P. Oli and his, his party and how they led to [00:10:00] elections, earlier this month, in March of this year?  Samir: Thanks, Cayden, and Happy Independence Day to you, Sharmin. I am somebody who was born and raised in Nepal, and am spending most of my life in the diaspora now, and I wanna name the limitations of, uh, my understanding of what’s going on in Nepal because of me not being on the ground organizing with the masses. And, I wanna honor the work that’s been happening in Nepal, on the ground one of the big things that, that’s really n- is important to name is, like, it’s only been 20 years since we abolished monarchy. Uh- Mm-hmm. … uh, 2006, right? That is a big thing for us to understand. And the party that was in power, and has been in power since, was the party that has been organizing our movements, and that is the organized left in Nepal, and, like, really betrayed our people once we, once they got into power, right? And, like, started kind of veering towards the right once they got in power. So 20 years later The economic conditions of our people on the ground are really dire. There’s no jobs available. People are migrating. A lot of our folks, one of the biggest source of economy and source of money for our, [00:11:00] our people back home is, like, migrant work, uh, in Dubai and, traveling to Dubai, Qatar, and working under very bad conditions. So one- that’s one of the big things that’s also been informing,, lot of the consciousness of the- our young people in Nepal, right? And then one of the other things that’s named really important is, so since the election, since 2006, the Communist Party, the Congress Party, and the Maoist Party have been, they’re the only ones who have been in power for the last 20 years, and these are all old upper caste men, even though they were the ones who were leading the movement and were organizing at left. But these were s- the representation and the leaders in these parties were all upper caste, caste Arya people, which is the dominant caste in Nepal, right? And that’s a very important layer to name. And that really informed, I think, a lot of the ways they showed up after we won. And, and that’s one, one big question that we always have in the left, right? What do we do after we- Yeah … abolish monarchy? What do we do after we win? And we haven’t figured that out too, as does any other movements, right? And 20 years later, the frustration is on the very high, against the status quo. And then we, and there [00:12:00] was a lot of, like, obviously there was a lot of inspiration from Bangladesh, like Indonesia, and, like, the uprisings there. And, like, this one, uh, thing started trending the young people started organizing around Nepo babies. There’s like, you know, “Yeah, you don’t have access to we do, you’re gonna take our access away from social media while your kids, and people who have connections to you and have, access to you are just posting about the life, the lavish life they’re living abroad and in my homelands,” right? So that’s one of the places where it started. And once that started, there was online campaign. And there was already conversations around banning social media in Nepal, and they were- Hmm … finding, like, different ways around it, and that really escalated the way people really responded to the situation, is like once they started organizing around Nepo babies and how they were, like, getting momentum around that, that’s when exactly the social media ban went into effect, right? And that’s a really important name because, like, one of the biggest pet peeves for me as a diaspora person has been this idea of people only started the uprising and took the streets because of the social media ban. [00:13:00] But just- Hmm. Mm-hmm … all these other things really added up to it. That was just the, just the point of escalation, right? So fast-forward, people started organizing on Discord. Uh, also the irony of it is that was one of the apps that was banned, uh, in Nepal as, uh… And people started organizing in Discord. And also wanna name the reality of, like, the only people who had access to Discord are also, like, privileged folks like us- Sure like younger, upper middle class people. So we were not really getting folks from outside Kathmandu and from our villages and from rural areas, right? So they didn’t really have any say in what the organizing would look like. So it happened very, organically, very decentralized. So there was a call for people to show up at Maitighar which has been a popular protest space in Nepal, for a very long time. And it was like at the, at the center of Kathmandu. So there was a call out september 8. A lot of folks came out, and then people from outside Kathmandu that couldn’t make it to Kathmandu started coming in big numbers. And the goal of the protest was peaceful protest, right? [00:14:00] And one of the things that happened, don’t quote me on this, but my understanding of it from, talking to people there is, like, a lot of political parties who had, who were the opposition from the Communist Party at that time started infiltrating the protest, and the protest started becoming, quote-unquote, “violent,”, which was not, uh, what the young people wanted. So fast-forward, that led to 19 deaths on the first day of the protest, which led to the home minister resigning, at the end of the day. But Oli, the prime minister, is so arrogant and really didn’t figure out the power of young people and, like, how they could keep mobilizing and organizing. He decided to just downplay them and say, “I’m not resigning,” which led to more heightened escalated protests the second day, where people started marching to the parliament buildings and started burning down buildings. And people started, people got to a lot of, like, the political parties’ political party leader home and started burning them, and, really started, holding them accountable. And also , there was videos of clips of, like, people torching into people’s homes and, like, [00:15:00] Sher Bahadur Deuba, who has been in power for the last 20 years in different, ways, who’s one of the, considered one of the most corrupt leader in Nepal, from Nepali Congress party, got attacked by the protesters. So fast-forward, more escalation led to, like, 52 more deaths, and the Oli party finally decided to resign at the end of that night, and that’s, that’s when curfew was impo- imposed by, the army. So that led to, like, a total of 72 deaths. I wanna name, like, in just the two days of mobilization, two days of organizing, because sometimes in the left we don’t understand. We talk about the similarities of our struggles but we don’t really talk about the conditions that led to it and, like, the level for the risk that our folks leveraged, to be able to topple the government, right? So I just wanna name that out loud and honor that part of, like, how the, how people, like, really leveraged risk. And then fast-forward, people started organizing. The conversation kept going on on Discord, and then there was, like, a town hall style meetings happening on Discord where, like, I think 7 to 8,000 people were on it. And also I still wanna name again, the people who didn’t have access to the internet and [00:16:00] phones were not able to part- participate in that. And decided Susila Karki, who was a chief justice 10 years ago, a woman, who also joined protesters during the first day of them mobilizing in the street. They decided, they voted, to hold her as the interim prime minister for now. And There was also one other layer is like a lot of people wanted Balen Sah, who is our prime minister now, but constitutionally if he was part of the interim government, he wouldn’t be able to run for prime minister. So that was like a strategic decision that, uh, like he made, and the movement made around not electing him as part of the interim government. So one of the big responsibilities of the interim government was to hold elections in six months, which honestly I was not very-  Cayden: That’s hugely ambitious. Samir: It is hugely ambitious, right? And also the reality is it happened, and also there are questions around, yeah, were we able to hold elections in a way where everybody had access to it, right? And that is a big question that I’m still asking, I’m still sitting with. But there were like record numbers that showed up to the polls, but [00:17:00] we haven’t really, like we still really don’t have answers around what accessibility looked like for people to show up at the polls. And fast-forward now, the Rastriya Swatantra Party which emerged at like a, at a very popular party in 2022, won with majority. And we just sworn in our new Prime Minister Balen Sah yesterday, we can talk about more later. Cayden: Well, thank you for summing up, both of you for summing up- Pretty long, complex histories fairly quickly for us. I’ve been thinking about the way that, like, Western media largely reports on these kinds of uprisings as if they come out of nowhere. And, like, we know as movement people that rarely, if ever, like, do they truly come out of nowhere. So, like, yeah, I wanna dig into what the longer arc of these stories really is. And I, I really wanna talk about, I guess, like, the specific texture in both Bangladesh and Nepal about how these protest movements position themselves against the government, against, like, other social forces, and, like, how kind of, like, other social phenomena acted on and shaped [00:18:00] these movements as well. Sharmin: I love that question ’cause it allows us to see, like, also the rich history of our, like, respective areas, and how much, like, young people have always been at the forefront of so many revolutionary struggles. And we often, um, you know, uh, post social media era like to make generalizations that this never existed before. But actually, you know, in Bangladesh, students are the most incredibly organized force that has shaped much of our history since 1947. The 1969 uprisings against Ayub Khan, the 1971 Liberation War, and then the , 1987 protests against the military dictator Ershad. And then later, our return to democratic governance in 1990 and the road safety protests of 2018, which actually laid the groundwork for so much of the student, frustration with the government not being able to keep students safe because of road safety issues and [00:19:00] just, the general mismanagement of transportation and, public resources. And so the campus has always been a key space for the pulse of the nation. But it’s also a key space for goons and vigilante groups to organize their forces. So the Bangladesh Awami League has their faction, the Chhatra League, and then there’s, you know, the Jamaat-e-Islami, which is the right-wing Islamist group of Bangladesh that has been growing, has their faction, the Chhatra Shibir. And then the Bangladesh Nationalist Party, which, you know, has been in opposition to the Awami League, also has their goons on campuses. And so one of the major, trends you’ll see during these moments is how these factions are actually weaponized to make sure that the violent state apparatus is deployed within public spaces. And, you know, you asked about, like, missteps and some of the things that political formations, might forget to plan for or think [00:20:00] about. And, you know, one of the things that I, I’m sure Samir can relate a little bit is, like, a lot of these student organizations, you know, students against discrimination, there was a group of men who claimed leadership of the student movement and formed, a party, the National Citizens Party. And you notice quickly the contradictions of their formation. All the women leaders were either asked to leave or they left because of what an undemocratic, unfeminist space it was. And then you noticed quickly that the National Citizen Party started allying itself with the right-wing forces to gain a populist base. And that, to me, is the, one of the biggest contradictions of what do leftists do when we gain power? And also, like, the sober conversation is, are these leaders leftists? Or did-  Cayden: Yeah, were they ever? Were they ever?  Sharmin: Or did we project our leftist dreams onto them and I think one of the things that [00:21:00] we’ve been doing for many generations, and I think Vincent Bevins’ work really synopsizes this well, in looking at the last decade of popular uprisings, is that we’ve been doing politics without ideology, right? Mm-hmm. That these political for- formations actually don’t have a coherent theory of change when they’re contesting for power. And so you notice quickly the National Citizens Party was very reactionary, and it was very anti-fascist by, their vernacular, but what anti-fascism meant was that we hate the Awami League, we’re gonna ban the Awami League, and the Awami League is no longer going to exist. And then we’re- Yes … gonna fight for Sheikh Hasina to be hanged, right? And so that became their populist slogan.  Cayden: Hmm.  Sharmin: And so, you know, there is no left force in Bangladesh, and that’s something that we have to name, that for sure there are garment workers that are organizing a party. There’s a communist league that does not actually grow in their base. Um- Hmm … and that is why coming out of [00:22:00] the July uprisings, you notice this leadership actually turned center right really fast because they didn’t have a, a vision that was rooted in economic and political struggles of the working-class students who made up majority of the base of people that were on the streets. Um, and you know, it was surprising, Cayden, I’ll just say, like, after the, the NCP was getting ready for elections that just happened this past February, they joined a coalition with the largest Islamist force of Bangladesh, and this is such a misstep, right? To join forces. W- your enemy of your enemy is not your friend, right? Like, wh- where, like, where, when has that gotten us anywhere? It falls into the traps of organizing without a clear, coherent ideology, and then the post-uprising impact is weakened. And so a lot of that groundwork of, like, theoretical work, we actually have to do that to be able to be ready for fights that take power in the way that [00:23:00] feel, restorative and generative, instead of what we’re seeing now, which is a populist right-wing growth in Bangladesh. Cayden: That feels like such an important lesson that we need to learn, unfortunately, over and over again, and I feel like this theme of, the enemy of my enemy is sometimes still my enemy has been coming up on this show a lot lately. That like, it, I, uh, you know, we see it happening in our movement politics here too, especially in, in this sort of moment of authoritarian retrenchment in our own government, that like, there are, there are challenges around that, and there’s like ways that I think, yeah, it makes sense that it feels good in the moment to be like, “Yeah, there’s more of us than there are of them.” But it’s like, well, who, who are us? Like, what is the us that we’re talking about? Samir, I will pass it to you to talk about, I guess, some of the texture that we should know about the protest movement in Nepal, and like what are the ways that, other social forces also outside the state have shaped the way that the protests have played out there. Samir: I was listening to Sharmin, and I was like, “Oh, there’s so many similarities,” [00:24:00] like in a lot of the political forces that led our movements and also like talking about K.P. Oli, there’s so many similarities of like how they were the face of the movement. And as somebody who really admired K.P. Oli because, you know, he was part of the social movement left. He was part of , like the first people’s movement struggles, uh, that happened in the ’90s that got rid of absolute monarchy. He was the face of the Communist Party. He did take up arms, right? So all of the tools that our revolutionary histories have used to, find liberation, right? So he used a diversity of tactics. Like, he started as somebody who believed in picking up arms. And then he led a people’s movement in the ’90s of, like with other political parties to get rid of the Panchayat system, which was a system of absolute monarchy and where all the political parties were dissolved right by the king from the 1960 to 1990, right? But one of the big things that I think we didn’t think about when our movements were being led, when our movement ancestors were organizing and like really thinking about is like what does identity mean for our movements. There’s political forces, [00:25:00] the social movement parties that are leading our people and organizing our people, and they did the organizing that happened in Nepal, the door-to-door, the base building that happened, if that was done by political parties, right? Which is true, and we need to name that layer, too. And I think one of the things that we’re missing in this moment right now is we have been so, so frustrated by the last 20 years of governance by these forces. We wanna forget the political history of how we got here, right? Mm-hmm. And that has been one of my big critique of the young people in Nepal, right? And for me, I also think about as somebody who’s getting older and also had access to my dad who was part of this movement, right? He was a big force as part of the Communist Party, and now he’s heavily traumatized because of the way he got betrayed by his comrades, right? And I think one of the forces I was talking about identity is, like, all of these political forces were led by upper caste Brahmin men, and there was no indigenous representation. So finally, the 1990, we were able to get rid of absolute [00:26:00] monarchy. By ’96, we still don’t have full democracy in Nepal, so, you know, the Maoists decided to wage a civil war where they really organized the masses, and really created conditions for the monarchy, to bow down, right? And the Maoist party came out of this forest and, like, built a coalition with the Communist Party and the Congress Party to take the streets again. In 2006, we finally were able to get rid of monarchy, but 2006 to 2014 was a struggle to, like, really, draft a new constitution for us, where we made some progress and where we also did some things where it took us back around, like, women’s rights, right? And so there was a big feminist movement that really created, like, organizing conditions of 2026 in so many ways, right? And one of the things that we were seeing during the last 20 years is what’s happening is all the communist parties, the people who led our movements and uprisings were veering towards the right, right? Hmm. Because they consolidated more power, like, you know, exactly what happened with, uh, Bangladesh. They consolidated more power where, you know, they could stay in power [00:27:00] for long. The indigenous folks were part of the struggles and the uprisings in the 100 years of our movement struggles. But once we won and they got, the Communist Party got into power, they started, like, pushing policies that would not benefit indigenous peoples, right? And then one of the big things that Nepal wanted is federalism in terms of, like, one of the big critiques of Nepal has been the government is so centralized in Kathmandu. Other people outside of Kathmandu really don’t get to take part in politics. And, so federalism was one of the big things that we pushed for, right? At Indigenous Struggles, that is the one thing that we pushed for so that we can govern our homelands, and that was the one thing that Oli was, like, against too, and that was also one of the reasons why he started becoming less and less popular, right? But one of the things that’s 2026 was, I think it’s also really important to understand, is the 2026 uprisings were led by youth who I believe, I dare to say, didn’t have, the full understanding, the political understanding of our political histories in that way. And there’s this, like, disconnect in terms of, like… it’s hard for me to bridge the 100 years of left in Nepal [00:28:00] and like, you know, this youth uprising that’s happening in Nepal that has no connection because it’s not an organized group, right? It’s very decentralized. Right. It happened on Discord. And that is one of the big questions we have now is, like, how do we as young people, the young people who led this uprisings, how do they stay organized, right? And that is a big question we still don’t, we don’t have answers to, right? The movement histories and, you know, the last 20 years has been very traumatizing, but there’s also so many lessons and so many beautiful things that happened during the organizing, right? So how do we make those connections? How do we ask those questions? How do we talk to this feminist group? How do we talk to, like, workers, right? We need to figure that out. And I think one of the big things, like Sharmin talked about too, is like the student protest student movements were a big part of how we got liberation in Nepal, and the student movements are like directly connected to political parties because they have the student wing. But that also doesn’t mean they are not organized. Yes, they were organized, and they really figured it out, but they have gotten corrupt. There’s goons there, there’s only men there. [00:29:00] And, like, how do we really ask those questions as a movement now and start building on some of our social movement histories? And that is a big question. And I haven’t heard anything, and I’m very curious what’s gonna happen on that, and I’ve been sitting with that a lot, too.  Cayden: Yeah. No, I, I mean, I feel like thinking about the challenges in remembering and then sometimes, like, having movement history misremembered to us by people with motivations. I can see how in that way for these young people who are getting organized, who are, like, trying to figure out what they want from the government in the future . there’s some real, delicate territory for them to negotiate around, like, understanding themselves in a lot of ways as political and historic actors, which is really interesting. Swati Rayasam: You are tuned in to Apex Express on 94.1 KPFA, 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno and [email protected].  Cayden: One of the other trends that [00:30:00] I would love to talk about is this, sort Western media trend where, an uprising happens somewhere, a protest movement happens somewhere, and they’re like, “Oh, there’s an interim government. Great.” And then, like, in the US, we don’t hear anymore the establishment of interim government is, first of all, deeply informed by the social movements and social forces that are already moving on the ground and also glosses over the way politics is done in a particular place. I’m wondering if there’s stuff that you’ve noticed that has really been lost from the international media discourse about the politics of both Bangladesh and Nepal since the sort of student uprising moment. And if there’s stuff that you’ve been seeing in the like, interim government moments that you’re like, “Oh, this is something to watch out for.” Like, “This is something that we can draw some lessons from.”  Sharmin: Yeah. Well, in Bangladesh we had a United States favorite Nobel Laureate, you know, Muhammad Yunus- Mm-hmm as our interim government. And, and I think what’s so fascinating is that, you know, he is the world’s sweetheart because he created [00:31:00] this, like, you know, microfinancing program that is, a program that they say, you know, empowers the poor people. And, we know that in practice it actually did not reverse poverty, and it actually left millions of people in more debt, than, they or- originally were projected to gain. And so I think what’s very fascinating about having such a pro-capitalist, figure that is, a sweetheart of empire, it spoke to his legacy in office, you know? During his time, he also signed one of the most devastating US-Bangladesh trade agreements with Trump- Hmm … which actually, further isolates China from the Bangladeshi trade market and, forces Bangladesh to do all of our trade deals with the US. And it’s a non-binding agreement. And so it is, deeply unlawful and also devastating to the economy of this area of Southeast Asia that actually needs China as, an ally, as a country that has, contributed a lot to the development of [00:32:00] our, transportation systems and, so for us it- it’s also about how much of this interim government was, you know, representing the interests of the global elite and what he was willing to do to be able to s- to, to squash, revolutionary energy within the country. The Women’s Commission was one of the most powerful consolidation of feminist leaders under the interim government that were looking to reform land laws for women. And similar to what, Samir was saying, right? Women’s rights just are the first thing that these governments throw under the bus and that- women’s commission report that was looking to really examine land laws and inheritance laws and and the rights of women economically like actually triggered one of the largest anti-feminist rallies in the country’s history- Wow … where millions, millions of Jamaat-e-Islami men and their supporters took the streets in [00:33:00] protest of women having rights. And that was something you did not see the Western media touch, even-  Cayden: No …  Sharmin: even though the Western media was, like, so excited for this revolution, right? You know, on the ground too, you have those people that are like, “This is a CIA-backed, like, uprising,” right? And then on the ground you see, like, oh yeah, people actually don’t want to touch the complexities of this country because it is layered within, like, religious nationalisms- Mm-hmm ethnic nationalisms, and caste. And so in my experience, I would just say that people know very little of the political forces within this, greater West Asian political landscape and how it connects to US imperialism here and abroad, you know? Pakistan was once the CIA’s closest ally in the Cold War, and they continue to be during the war on terror right now, right? Mm-hmm. The United States provided Pakistan with military, diplomatic, and economic support because a [00:34:00] pro-US military dictatorship in this region that was a staunch anti-communist ally created a buffer between the axis of the USSR, China. Cayden: Hmm.  Sharmin: And then I’ll say at the same time, on the ground, there were dozens of reports of mobs that were attacking temples and Hindu leaders. Hindus are a minority in Bangladesh that have been historically, marginalized, and these contradictions were, were getting highlighted, right? Because that violence was eerily similar, right? The partition of South Asia- Yeah …  Cayden: excluded  Sharmin: Hindu-Muslim communalism, and there were tensions and divides that fell across class lines. And for Western and, hegemonic media outlets, this looked like, oh, the Muslims are attacking the Hindus again.  Samir: Right.  Sharmin: And so for me, like, the being able to reckon Islamophobia, communal violence, identity and class politics, but also the way nationalism operates in South Asia, it, it’s a tricky dance [00:35:00] And I’ve been learning how to really convey this complex history because the country’s, uh like, beautiful history of, like, using guerrilla warfare to defeat US-backed forces in the region, it also represents something different from its neighbors, India and Pakistan. Mm-hmm. And within that, you know, we have Bangladesh joining the PLO in Lebanon to fight on behalf of Palestinian liberation. We have the fact that the country’s actually i- inception was based on a socialist vision, right? And it’s now one of the fastest-growing economies in the world with the fast fashion garment industry that’s also ravaged by climate crisis and mass displacement. And so for me, it always just comes back to anti-war and anti-imperialism, like all the nodes of my brain, because I’m like, “Here’s this US global death-making machine and this defense industry that sells tear gas shells to my country and [00:36:00] sells Israeli surveillance technology to my country.” And then there’s this Bangladesh trade agreement that Trump was able to wager during this vulnerable moment for our country and it’s at the core of all the political and economic violence within my country. And so the neoliberalization of our campuses and what these students are facing is because of the war economy. And so, so I just, like, zoom out in those moments, and I’m like, “Oh, this, this feels very much so like Cold War politics and the aftermath.”  Cayden: Yeah, like the politics of the Cold War have just simply never left us. Like, they’re still here, and it’s like we’ve sort of swapped in China as the big bad in a lot of ways.  Sharmin: Right.  Cayden: Samir, I wonder if there’s, stuff that you’ve been seeing about the interim government in Nepal that you think are worth our sort of examination as kind of like lessons that we can draw from what happens after the protest, and yeah, like how that has been part of the electoral moment also we’re in in Nepal right now. Samir: Yeah, [00:37:00] well, the interim government was, what was it, about five months. I think we didn’t really see a lot of work that happened from the interim government, but obviously one of the big wins of the interim government was they were successfully able to hold elections. And the Western media has only focused on Balen Saha, this, quote-unquote, “rapper,” this charismatic guy who is gonna, who’s 35 years old and is gonna lead. And then like Sushila Karki, I mean, one of the big things that everybody is like, “Oh, she’s the first woman prime minister of Nepal, and what does that mean for us?” And, you know, this identity politics of like, “Oh, we finally got a woman president.” And for us it’s like when we talk about it, that’s the only thing we see in the discourse. But the reality is she was also a woman prime minister in an interim government that she knew was gonna last for six months, right? And also one of the things that a lot of people don’t think about and realize is like the youth really didn’t know who she was. And I think that’s one of the big things that Sarmin talked about too, is like how do our youth have the consciousness? And do we have a left, social movement left, that’s actually supporting them to really understand, you know, the conditions [00:38:00] of our people and who we’re electing and, like, how we’re organizing and what that means for us, right? But one of the big popularities about her was, like, she was not a career, jurist as she was appointed, was a lawyer that was appointed to the Supreme Court in 2009 by the Judicial Council, and she had this reputation of pushing back against some of the political parties and some of the establishments in that time. So that was, like, one of the big things that really lured our folks, there was this one interview of her that went really viral about how she talks about, you know, establishment parties and how she challenged, some of the status quo while she was… Because a lot of times what happens with some of these appointments are people who are loyal to the to the parties, right? That was the one big thing that really attracted a lot of our young folks, to mobilize around her being the prime minister. And it’s just, like, a lot of unknowns around, like, we still don’t know because with the older parties, it was very clear to us that the Communist Party was, like, more loyal to China, right? And the Congress party was more loyal to India. And then one of the things a lot that we don’t see in the discourse even in left spaces, right? Even [00:39:00] in, like, media spaces is, more than US imperialism, India and China is also waging some form of imperialism in our homelands, right? And that we don’t wanna name that layer because in the US, as, us being in the belly of the beast, our only responsibility is to fight US imperialism. And then for me, as somebody from the Global South, I understand that how that impacts our movement and how that is dangerous and harmful to our people in our, back in our homeland. Because China and India are bullying Nepal in a lot of different ways politically, right? Because nothing happens in Nepal without the consent of India and China, right? And India obviously has more power, and they’re, like, fighting over that power in Nepal right now. And the other thing that I wanted to name is, I was hoping K.P. Oli, during our interim prime ministership, during that interim government, would be held accountable, which didn’t happen. And we’re not talking about that, right? And also she [Karki] had a lot of limitations, and we still are figuring out what, like, what kind of power she held, right? But the hope was for me was, like, that she would hold the people who were responsible for our people’s deaths accountable during the six months she was there, which [00:40:00] really didn’t happen and really moved. And that’s one of the things that hasn’t been talked about, and I think that was a big political opportunity for her to do some of that work to push K.P. Oli out of power because he, after doing all of this, was still able to contest the elections and lost really badly. But one of the things for me, the inspiration was, like, how Sheikh Hasina was pushed out of the country, right? Like, that was one of the hopes and dreams, and that didn’t really happen, during this interim government.  Cayden: Hmm. That’s interesting that there’s, like, a possibility that he might be back. Well, I wanna turn a little bit to thinking about this history that’s been unfolding and, like, what it is like to be observing, talking to comrades and loved ones as an organizer who’s based here in the US as part of your diasporic community. One of the things I think a lot about is, like- When we talk about solidarity with people’s movements internationally in the US, sometimes we forget that, like, people from those diasporas are our comrades. They are here. And that we have a lot to, [00:41:00] like, learn from them. What has it been like watching the sort of, like, social movements in Bangladesh and Nepal respectively, and what has it been like to have that consciousness as an organizer here in the US dealing with all of the political stuff that we’ve been dealing with here? Samir: I love that you asked that question, Cayden, and also, like, yes, I just wanna start with, like, this layer of like, oh, yes, we have comrades here who are from these diasporic communities who actually can inform us in this. And to add another layer to that, even with, with my, you know, my history of being born and raised in Nepal and, like, being connected to our movements there and, like, living here for the last 20 years now, right? That also creates another layer where I don’t have access to everything, and that also creates a layer of, like, that I don’t have to know everything, right? And I wish our left- Mm-hmm … Western left understood that layer sometimes because – In our movements, I’m gonna go be a little– I’m gonna little shit about our movements here, you know? Because one of the things that happens is, like, the romanticization of what’s going on in our homelands without understanding, and this idea- Mm-hmm of, like-like, we have to know the answers to every… It’s okay to not have answers. I think that’s a big thing that I reflect on a lot as somebody here, [00:42:00] right? And also, the reality is I have access to my father, who is, for me, the only revolutionary that I know who was part of, like, social movements and who, like, really spent his whole life to the movement and is now still doing things after being betrayed by his party, right? So I think that’s one of the big things. I think it’s okay to know that. I think the second thing for me as somebody in the diaspora, it’s my role in the diaspora. It’s also what is my role in the diaspora to inform my comrades. If you’re an upper-caste person, it is your responsibility to name that in the movement spaces that you hold and name that layer- Mm … and inform people about that layer. I think about that a lot. I sit up, I sit with that and reflect on that a lot, and that really informs the way I show up as somebody in the diaspora. And my responsibility, one of the things that we saw when all of this was happening you know, the movements, the social movement left was so fast, got into this train of, like, it’s a Color Revolution [i.e., the revolution is backed by the US government/is a US-led intervention], as if our peoples don’t have the capacity to organize. Yes, there was infiltrations. Yes, India was involved. But yes, there was also uprising where 70 people died, right? So just, bringing it down to, like, it’s not really being complex and, like, [00:43:00] being nuance about that. And that really is harmful to our people back home, right? Because that, in that, when we’re doing that, we’re taking away, like, access from our people in terms of, like, how they are doing things. And also, like, really, I think invalidating the fact that our, the governments that was being oppressing against the uprisings are oppressive. So that just, like, invisibilizes, uh, what the state is doing, right? Because it is a Color Revolution, you know. The, it is not led by the people. We’re, there was even sign, things like they said, like, “Oh, there were signs in English.” Like, can you just think about, you know, the, the orientalist, uh, you know-  Cayden: Yeah …  Samir: orientalist way that you are thinking even as somebody who considers yourself a social movement left. So that’s, I think, one my, that, for me, that is a big responsibility. And- And that is where I can also make an impact as somebody in the diaspora. I am not on the ground, that is the reality of it, and knowing where I can make impact and how I can make impact, and knowing very clearly that I don’t have all the answers, and I’m not– I’m an outsider in so many… I go back home every time I go home for a couple of months, the way I show up in these movement spaces [00:44:00] is I’m here to listen and I’m an outsider, and I’m trying to figure out how I can support you, right? And that is, for me, a role as a diasporic person, and I’m very clear on that. And I think it’s also because I have access to my dad who grounds me in that, and it’s like- Mm-hmm “Samir, you don’t live here anymore.” He will remind me very clearly. He’s like, “You don’t live here anymore.” And you need to understand that, and that’s okay.” And he will ground me in that, and that really helps me in terms of thinking of how I wanna show up as a diasporic person.  Cayden: Yeah. No, that’s, that’s really helpful, and I think that, like, this thing that you’re describing about the sort of like in some ways, like, healthy, but in other ways sort of, like, overblown skepticism that US observers can have about uprisings, revolutions in other countries just because, like… The, the word that came to mind as you were describing it was, like, infantilizing, right? That it’s, like, as if people can’t independently form their own political opinions without the intervention of the, like, global superpower is just sort of, like, baffling to me. You hit on something that, like, I think about a lot [00:45:00] also as somebody who is, like, a generation removed from the immigrant generation in my family. I don’t have a ton of relationships with my family who are in Hong Kong and China, but, like, how do I, like how do I relate to that? It’s very challenging, and it’s- and I, I think that there’s so much in, like, US like left social movement discourse that I’m just kind of like, “I actually don’t know how to relate to this as a diasporic person sometimes.” Sharmin, I’m also interested to hear from you on this.  Sharmin: Yeah. Yeah, similarly, I feel, I feel like there is this, like, uh, relationality that it’s pushing people that are here to really think about more clearly. I feel like some of the early ’70s through the ’90s was a very, like, symbolic type of solidarity that we had- Mm-hmm where, where, you know, we would do the cultural attire, the cultural associations, you know, the melas, which are, like, big fairs that we have in these hubs of, like, immigrant communities. And now I think the politics are coming back. Like, I think after the July uprising, [00:46:00] you actually saw solidarity actions popping up across hubs in, you know, New York and California where people were like, “Actually, this impacts me and I wanna talk about what this means. I wanna talk about the cultural and political organizations that run this local community.” And one thing that I really took back from the last two visits to Bangladesh is really learning the skills of talking to somebody who disagrees with me because-  Cayden: Hmm …  Sharmin: I think in the United States the left does not practice, being able to engage, talk, even, like, be in relationship with people that might be politically opposed to you. And so when I go to Bangladesh, I’m actually surrounded by a lot of homophobes. I’m surrounded by a lot of men who, like, support the Awami League, and I’ve had to kind of, like, sit in this in between of being like, “Oh, yeah, like, I actually have to learn how to debate better. I have to learn how to, like, you know, be that person that’s, like, holding humanity but also holding the, the critical left analysis that I, I believed in to be right because I [00:47:00] know I’m right.” Right? And I know that, like, this is a hill that’s worth dying on. And I think with Mamdani’s win in, in New York, like, there’s so many examples of how that, like, South Asian left politic that’s actually talking about class exists- Mm-hmm.  Cayden: Yeah …  Sharmin: within the geography of our communities. And, you know, especially for, you know, Samir and I are, like, the minority South Asians, so we’re not the Indian upper caste. And so for us, we’re like, “This has always been the reality of our people.” They are working-class organizers. They’re people who know how to talk about the intricacies of domestic labor, about the unorganized labor forces, about the people that are left out of the political agenda of our government. And so for me, like, I really take some of the lessons that DRUM [ Desis Rising Up and Moving]  is doing on the ground in New York around what it means to actually build a member base that’s rooted in relationship, but also towards a North Star. And that North Star, it looks a little socialist. It looks a little working class. It looks [00:48:00] very deeply rooted in a feminist, anti-oppressive politic. And I think for someone in diaspora, that’s been the biggest growth area for me, where I’m like, “How do I hold this vision and not lose hope that my people are not, like, all right-wing people that are out to, like, you know, destroy me and my people?” But we are in this center-right populous moment that will require us to do cultural shift. It will require us to do that, like, slow work of tilling the land, like Ella Baker spade work. And you know, a comrade of mine, Nafiz, who’s a brilliant writer at Jamhor, when I was talking to him about processing the February elections, he was just like, “You know, I actually think, like, I’m seeing a lot of possibility right now because I saw what happened to Egypt after Tahrir Square, and I saw where Egypt went and what a military dictatorship did to that country.” And he was like, “And Bangladesh, that’s not what happened to us.” And, and he was like, “And this is important for us to really reckon with how… Not to [00:49:00] say, like, ‘Oh, it could be so much more worse,’ but it could be so much more worse.” And we have to work within these, like, terrains in a way that’s, like, really reckoning with why are people wanting to find comfort in these right-wing religious social groups, because they are the only organized groups of people that are providing shelter and food. And so unless the left fills that gap, we are gonna see right-wing populism, and we’ve seen it within white supremacy here, but it translates to every Global South country, from Brazil to, you know, um, obviously South Asia. And so yeah, I just am trying to be more, like, relative in that way, where I’m like-  Cayden: Hmm Sharmin: “Oh, we’re a lot more relative than we think we are.”  Cayden: Yeah. That is such a good insight about, like, having to context switch Across geography, across political context, like builds a, like a really important muscle for us as organizers. This has been an absolutely fantastic [00:50:00] conversation and I’ve learned so much from both of you. My one sort of like, well I have two outgoing questions and they’re sort of related to one another. One is thinking about like as a monolingual English speaker, as somebody who’s like in the US, I think one of the things that I’ve often felt a challenge around is like where do I look to for news, for updates, and for analysis about what’s going on in the Global South, especially for places where I have no cultural or language connection. And like when you’re assessing news and information that’s coming out about movement politics. What do you consider, what do you think about, what are the questions you ask yourself when you’re like seeing headlines, kinda day-to-day that you think would be useful for other folks to start thinking about? Sharmin: Yeah. I, I really think about, like, multiple nationalisms right now, that there’s, like, these competing forces of, like, who gets to tell the story. And I always, like to think about, like, how, uh, US [00:51:00] interests, Chinese interests, or even, like, Indian interests are determining the news landscape right now. And I don’t like to think about it, but I, I’ve been looking at so much coverage that feels very much like, yikes, like what is going on, with our, like, news ecosystem? And unfortunately, I think we need to get back on Facebook. Like, I think that the fact that- … progressives and the left have left Facebook, like, I get it. Fuck Meta, and Facebook is the main place for so much like organizing. And we-  Cayden: Contest every space.  Sharmin: Get back on Facebook. Who cares if there are right-wing trolls on it? You we have to create alternative like information systems that are, like, really amplifying to these networks and groups of people that are getting inundated with that information. And I think we’re really lucky because there’s a lot of leftist South Asian publications now, Himal South Asian, Jumphore, you could become Patreon supporter and really be a part of these legacy, South Asian [00:52:00] left, thinkers that are actually thinking about, like, the long-term arc, and they, they’re contending with socialism. They’re contending with the communist, like, legacies of our organizations. And so, I just really appreciate that they’re doing political analysis with politics and not just focusing on, like, symbolic forms of, like, political analysis. So shout-out to them and, and their hard work because yeah, they, they’re English media that is getting translated for this day and age, you know? Cayden: Yeah. I… It was really exciting to me to, like, do a lot of the sort of, like, background for this conversation and find, like, English language movement media coming out of South Asia. I was like, “This is so exciting.” Like, this is… I feel like in some ways the thing that they’re trying to do is, like they’re kind of our comrades- Mm-hmm in a sense, right? Like, they’re trying to do a similar thing to the thing that we’re trying to do at Convergence, and I was like, “Ooh, this is really cool. Like, I’m bookmarking this.” Yeah. So I don’t know. Samir, do you have, do you have other thoughts about, like, what things [00:53:00] US people should be thinking about as they’re kind of assessing news and developments? Samir: Yeah, big ups Himal Magazine. I think that is a big source of information for me too. And also as somebody who struggles with reading Nepali now, which I’m very embarrassed of it’s really hard for me to get access. to. I have to sit with my dad to, like, really go through some of the news articles, which, you know, my dad gracefully agrees. Uh, I think one of the big things is, like, I do benefit a lot from his free labor. I’ll just name that on this podcast. But I think, and one of the things I would say is like- Thanks,  Cayden: dad …  Samir: really, like, figuring out, like, I don’t know, like, pushing through the binary of, like, what US imperialism means for Nepal and what also there’s, there could be other forms of imperialism that I named earlier, that Sharmin named too. And also right now, I think there’s a lot of unknowns for us too, right? We have this party that was not part of the political establishment that came into picture in 2024. So we are still grappling with the idea of, like, what does this mean for us? Who are they gonna be loyal to, and how does, what does this mean for geopolitics in Nepal, right? So we are still sitting with that question. And there is some clarity around, I think one of the things I would say is there’s a [00:54:00] lot of excitement, even in diaspora community, and my role in the diaspora also has been talking to some of my friends who are stoked about this prime minister right now because we haven’t built a left that is informing them of the nuances and, like, how we can actually figure out the critique of this person, right? Because for me, I think it’s really important the social movement left to understand because even my friend, my comrades are sending me, “Oh, this rapper is a prime minister now.” It’s somebody that I trust a lot, right? Yeah. And I have to do the work of like, “Hey, this person has this history of governing in this way when he became the mayor of Kathmandu, where he was against poor people,” right? He did some changes, structural changes that helped, upper middle class people. And using that as a way to, like, really assess what he’s gonna do for Nepal, and I’m actually skeptical, right? He is somebody from the Madhesi movement, which is a indigenous group that is very marginalized in Nepal, but he also comes from a very upper class background, right? And that’s also real. We have to name that. His party’s ideology is to push us away from federalism in some sense, right? And also the reality is they had a majority, they won a majority because we didn’t have a social movement left outside of political parties that would help us assess him, right? [00:55:00] So that’s, I think that’s the question. Those are some of the questions I would love people to ask, because I am asking those questions as somebody who is from Nepal and from the diaspora, and I check myself every time. And yeah, I will end it with, like, it’s okay to not have all the answers, and just, yeah, do some of that work of, like, reflecting on, like, asking yourself how you are taking in some of the information that you’re seeing. And obviously, Himal Magazine is a big source, and one of the Substacks that I would highly recommend too is, I think we could put it in the links later, it’s called Kalam Weekly, which is on Substack. I have some critiques of their writing too, but that’s really been helping me understand what’s going on in Nepal right now.  Cayden: You both have been so incredibly generous with your time, and this has been such a rich conversation. I don’t know if there are places also where if our listeners want to follow your work, I don’t know, if there’s organizations or places where you are publishing thoughts, either your own or organizationally that you wanna share. Sharmin, is there any place people can find you online? Sharmin: Yeah, for sure. We’re building the Asian American left at 18 Million Rising, so you could follow us there, and I’m @sharminultra [00:56:00] on all social media.  Cayden: And Samir, is there a place people can find you?  Samir: Uh, yeah, I am a very quiet person. Uh, but direct action has been a big part of our struggles in the last few years, and we are really thinking about, like, how we can escalate strategically, so I am part of a network of direct action trainers called the Ruckus Society. Hit us up. We do trainings, go to our website, request a training if you need any direct action support. We love nerding out on action design and thinking about action curriculum and how we train our people to do action safely. And follow Ruckus Society, and I don’t really have a social that’s public, so…  Cayden: that’s so fair. I respect your choice not to be perceived.  Samir: I mean, also, I’m not Sharmin, I feel I learn from her so much, from Sharmin, so I just wanna name that, and also just from how I- And  Sharmin: we’re friends. Like, we, we’ve done direct actions together. Like, we’ve been arrested together. Like-  Cayden: Yeah. …  Sharmin: we’re comrades, so it’s just so fun to be able to talk about this- Well, I really-  Cayden: Yeah …  Yeah. Thanks again, Sharmin, Samir. Absolutely a pleasure to talk, and I’m, I’m sure we’ll talk again soon.  Sharmin: Talk soon. [00:57:00] Thank you, guys.  Samir: Talk soon. Thank you, Cayden. Thanks, Convergence. Swati Rayasam: thanks so much for tuning in to Apex Express, and an extra special thanks to our comrades at Convergence Magazine and the Block and Build Podcast. All of the show notes mentioned in the episode can be found on the Apex website at kpfa.org/program/apexexpress. Find out what Convergence is up to at convergencemag.com. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important. Apex Express is a collective of activists that includes Ayame Keene Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Lee, Jelena Keene Lee, Miko Lee, Preeti Mangaleshakr, and me, Swati Rayasam. Thank you so much to the team at KPFA for their support, and have a great night. [00:58:00]  The post APEX Express – 7.2.26 – International Youth Movements appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 6.25.26 – Spitting Fire: Doktora Robyn Speaks 25.06.2026 59мин

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Host Miko Lee checks in with Dr. Robyn Rodriguez and we get to check out her podcast Spitting Fire: Doktora Robyn Speaks.   SHOW TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.   [00:00:34] Miko Lee: Welcome to Apex Express. I’m your host, Miko Lee, and tonight I’m so excited to talk to my lovely colleague, Dr. Robyn Rodriguez. Robyn is such a powerful leader. She’s often called the people’s professor. She was a professor of Asian studies at UC Davis, and now runs the Reimagination Lab. She has created a farm that is a collective action space, and she is really thinking about new ways to reimagine our world. I’m so excited for you to learn more about Dr. Robyn and you’re gonna get to hear from her new podcast, which is called appropriately, Spitting Fire: Doktora Robyn Speaks. And I just love this, ’cause spitting fire is this term for women that can speak out and share their stories, and Robyn has so much to tell. So I’m gonna interview her, and then you’re gonna get to listen to her new podcast, Spitting Fire. Thanks so much for joining us on Apex Express.   [00:01:36] Welcome back Dr. Robyn Rodriguez to Apex Express.   [00:01:41] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Oh, thank you so much for having me.    [00:01:44] Miko Lee: I’m so happy to have you with us once again. And I have asked you this before, but sometimes things change in the amount of years we’ve spoken to each other. So I’m gonna ask again, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   [00:02:00] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Yeah, who are my people? I think about folks of color broadly as my people. Whenever I refer to my people, I really do think about those of us who share intertwined and yet also distinct histories of colonization, empire, War, Violence. I think of all of us who’ve descend from peoples who’ve survived, fought back thrived, in spite of all that as my people and the legacy I hope to leave is lessons on continuing to not just dismantle the systems that caused harm on our ancestors and continue to cause harm for us now, but to offer also lessons on liberation and what it can look like and feel like so that we can continue to not just again, dismantle, but also build out the worlds we want.    [00:03:15] Miko Lee: Speaking of lessons, you have a brand new podcast series called Spitting Fire Doc. Robyn Speaks, and I wonder if you can talk to me about how this podcast came to be.   [00:03:27] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : You’re gonna laugh. Well, there are a couple of things I think that lead to the podcast. I’ve always wanted to do a podcast. I did college radio when I was an undergrad at UC Santa Barbara. I had a co-host for a show called WAR Women in the Act of Resistance, and we used to love to always say, we declare war on.   [00:03:53] Miko Lee: I love that.    [00:03:53] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Whatever it is that we, yeah,    [00:03:58] Miko Lee: that’s so good.    [00:03:59] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : I, I, yeah. So I, I love doing college radio and have always, you know, people would joke or I don’t know if it was a joke, but compliment me on having a kind of good radio voice. I don’t know how true that is.   [00:04:16] Miko Lee: Very true, true.   [00:04:16] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : But I’ve always had a, an interest in, podcasting as a platform. I think in general I prefer the long form platform. I prefer storytelling and, uh, there’s something really powerful about podcasts is I think for me, really connected to radio programming. I don’t see them, I guess, in very different ways. So I’d always wanted to do podcasts even when I was still teaching at, uc Davis, in Asian American Studies. I always thought podcasts are a really, really powerful way to share the knowledges of ethnic studies beyond the classroom. So I’d actually clipped on a recorder while I was lecturing and had uploaded a bunch of a raw unedited audio to what used to be iTunes University. So in some ways that might have been like the first podcast in a way. And then the funny thing about, uh, Spitting Fire it was kind of launched a little sooner than I was ready to be honest. I basically messed up on what was supposed to be a Zoom video. I don’t know exactly what happened, but we only had audio and I thought, you know what? We’re slapping that together, editing it and putting it out there, because I thought that the conversation that we had over Zoom was so, just really powerful and informative, and I didn’t want to not have it circulate in the world. And so I’ve sort of tried to proceed in that way. I, I guess I see podcasting alongside YouTube videos and other long form and even just more written essays as the sets of long form digital media that I tend to prefer and also recognize as an educator that people learn in so many different ways. Some people are able to learn better, by listening closing their eyes and listening and are able to kind of absorb knowledge differently in that way. Others respond better to a kind of visual medium. Others like to read. And as an educator too, I feel like each of the mediums can be really effective in terms of conveying and transmitting knowledge. But again, I have a preference if I have to use digital media for the long form. I do worry that the sort of clipped, abbreviated, kind of versions of digital media that is social media, whether it’s TikTok or Instagram and other sorts, or just, I don’t know that they serve us in the way that, especially as an educator, that I    [00:07:08] Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing. I’m wondering how you ended up selecting this lovely title. You went from WAR in college to Spitting Fire. Tell me about where this title comes from.   [00:07:19] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : You know, I think it must have been a student, honestly, who had said, oh, look at Dr. Rob Spitting Fire after some talk. And I, I was sort of drawn to that. I think too, honestly, as an Asian American woman I think I was kind of playing a little bit with these stereotypes of Asian American women as kind of dragon ladies. And, but trying to kind of remake that in a way to kind of paint a picture of sort of fierce Asian American woman who is unafraid to speak truth to power. I think I’ve been feeling as and in my interactions with younger generations of women, I do feel as if younger Asian American women, and again, maybe it has to do with social media maybe the permanency of that. The circulation of media and how rapidly it spreads. Cancel culture. I feel that there is a kind of timidness that I’m encountering with younger Asian American women who are a little bit reluctant to speak up and speak out without really taking a moment to first compose themselves. Edit and then maybe post or share. And I guess I, I had hoped that image of spitting fire might conjure up a different way of being, as a kind of Asian American, woman, and activist, and organizer. And that’s even why I think I was really drawn to just not over editing any of the content. You know, if there were was content that I could pull from other conversations I was having, that might have been like originally a Zoom for instance, but might you know, be conveyed better to somebody who Is more of a listener than a a watcher or a viewer that could invite, people or women in particular feeling like it’s okay to not be perfect. It’s okay to be able to stand by a thought and recognize that are the things that we, we say in a particular moment have history and context and need to be understood in that way. So it plays with that image of, I think the dragon lady, Asian American woman, dragon leader lady. And also, you know, I always talk about my middle name. It’s such an important part of who I am and my identity, but my middle name, which I get from my mother. Was my mother’s maiden name means to be angry in Filipino, and I’ve always loved it because it was actually a made up name. It was a name that my great-great-grandfather claimed for himself. Changing his name from De Los Reyes, which means of the kings to Magalit to be angry because he was a revolutionary against the Spanish. And I’m so fiercely proud of this revolutionary lineage that I hold. And I think in a way, Spitting Fire also reflects that lineage of ancestors who’ve never been afraid to stand up, speak out and again, speak truth to power.   [00:10:54] Miko Lee: Ooh, that was such a lovely answer. I really appreciate reclaiming the dragon Lady is furious and powerful and a revolutionary figure. I think that’s so lovely because usually we just think of the dragon lady as this evil villain, but dragons in Asian culture are creatures that are to be revered and are powerful and lucky too.   [00:11:19] So, I so appreciate that. I really, I wonder,    [00:11:21] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : you know, that too.    [00:11:23] Miko Lee: I’m wondering, you, you said that you feel like young women are timid today and I was like deep sigh of that because I feel like still really now with, I don’t know, I just, that’s that. Um, do you find that in the students that you’re working with now, that they’re still Asian, young women are still being timid?   [00:11:46] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : I mean, honestly, I don’t think that this is a uni. You know, this is certainly not true for all of the young women I encounter. No, that would be unfair, but I also feel as if the boldness that might be out there I feel is often highly curated. A lot of it is expressed through social media. And again, if we understand social media, the reality of Instagram is it’s never so instant. There is a much time and effort put into filters, into kind of visualizations aimed to draw a more attention. Really careful framings, and accompanying captions. I mean, I, you know, even for posts, ’cause I think a lot of, I think political conversation and discourse is happening, I would say on Instagram, I’ve decided to opt out of TikTok. I know that’s also a place, but that’s all to say that I think that these become a kind of shield or crutch. And then I’ve found and often been surprised. When I meet people in person, such a disconnect between a persona and, how one actually moves in the world with other people. And, that’s where I’ve seen some surprising timidness and caution. And it does worry me a bit. I mean, I, and ’cause I think that there are maybe competing notions. I think some people in my generation feel this generation to be very brave. And I’m not, you know, I hate to say this, I’m not a hundred percent certain that’s true sometimes, at least in sometimes the young people that I’ve encountered. I think social media has. I guess I’m not convinced that social media is the modality or the mechanism by which change will happen. And we make change in our relationships with actual, kind of, with everyday people. With people. And in relation to the land and kind of the resources of the earth. And yeah, that’s where I feel like that kind of boldness and bravery needs, you know, makes more lasting impact than the kind of illusory, fleeting, and very superficial for me trade and visuals and words over social media. So, yeah, I do, I do worry about it. I, I feel like I’ve seen it too often, a hesitance to speak up.   [00:14:32] Miko Lee: This is so interesting. I just did an interview uh, with NAKASEC about the new study that they released on Asian American men and the Manosphere, and how more and more Asian American men are being persuaded by right wing media in the Manosphere. But I wonder about Asian American women as you bring this up. And I, I think back to that many years ago, that documentary film that. Slaying the dragon. Do you remember that from years past    [00:14:58] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : that? Oh my gosh, yeah. It’s a while.    [00:15:00] Miko Lee: Yeah. That was all on the, you know, the on representation of Asian American women and that, and that was maybe 20 years ago. So I wonder how much that’s changed    [00:15:10] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : maybe more. Yeah,    [00:15:11] Miko Lee: maybe more. Right? So, but I wonder how that’s changed with, because that was pre-social media and if Asian American men are being pulled in the manosphere, what are Asian American women being pulled into?    [00:15:24] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Yeah, I do worry. I worry again, just, I mean, my goodness, you know, the proliferation of just the growth of the beauty industry.    [00:15:35] Miko Lee: Yeah.    [00:15:35] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Um, the casualness, by what I mean, just in terms of cosmetic surgery becoming so even normalized   [00:15:45] Miko Lee: for young people very young people .   [00:15:48] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Absolutely. Absolutely. And our kind of television series through streaming platforms you know, even movies. I mean, it’s, it’s clear that there are, you know, real investments in cosmetic surgery by many of the women that we hold up, across race. And yeah, this sort of, it’s just, it’s, I’ve been shocked by how, how, I mean, just the other day, I, I’m like a very loyal client. Well, when it comes to my hairstylist, I go, I travel two hours to Sacramento from our farm to get my hair cut every six months from one woman. I, I just, I could not believe just the conversations I was hearing women including Asian American women in the seats next to me around injections, fillers, I remember seeing flyers posted all around the salon. For a session being held by a, a cosmetic, I don’t even know the terms, but there’s now a proliferation of job titles even associated what is it? Medical aesthetician. But yeah, I, I do worry. Right. Trading in the visual. Maybe that’s why too, the podcast feels like a way where people can. Especially if I, you know, am in conversation with others or for myself even to just kind of show up without having to worry about you know, what I look like or what others look like. Or there’s, you know, people don’t have to worry about, the talking heads and kind of can pay attention more to the knowledges or the stories being shared. But I feel like that is a pull, I mean, if there was, if we’ve always, I think as as Asian American women, our bodies, right? Subject to just, these representations, right? The hypersexualization of Asian American women, which is really at the core of, I can recall of slaying the dragon. I think that has gotten worse. And we’re being more actively recruited into our own participation in this kind of hypersexualization on one hand, or being recruited into participating in these what are ultimately white aesthetics and remaking our bodies. To conform to notions of beauty and it’s all being cast as if it’s empowering and liberating somehow. And I, I’ve heard that and, and witnessed that, that somehow, no, these are not aesthetic choices that have to do with whiteness. I just wanna look pretty. Without any interrogation around what are the standards of beauty based on and even why, like, what is it about you know, desirability, youthfulness and all of that. That I think is definitely a co a concern I have and why I’ve pulled away from social media. I don’t know that I’ve looked on Instagram for I don’t know how many months. It’s been quite a bit of time, so much so that, Instagram is now sending me emails to remind me of all the messages and posts I’m missing. Facebook was doing that as well. But. I get troubled by the things that I am seeing. And I do worry for not just kind of younger generations of Asian American women, I think this is also a worry for all younger women of color.    [00:19:20] Miko Lee: It’s interesting they cast it almost as colorblindness in terms of the beauty standards, but it’s laced in white supremacy because the whole, the very basic of the standard of beauty is based in whiteness. That’s quite powerful and interesting.    [00:19:40] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Yeah. And it’s also deeply rooted in kind of capitalist consumption, right? The notion that the only thing that is of value is a thing that is new and novel. Anything else has zero value. And we’re seeing that right where women are terrified. Terrified of getting older. I mean, I was in conversation with a few women, you know, in, in my circles, not even 30. Who are being policed by their peers about their frown lines, watching how they express themselves because they’re approaching 30 and another woman in her early thirties you know, just commenting too that, well, the procedures now are so good. They’ve gotten so good at it that you can’t even tell. But you know, just this, that it’s happening at such a young age and, and you know, women, we already have to deal with all of these demands on our bodies, right? Some that are external, some that we internalize around, reproduction if we’re straight or if we desire children, even if we’re not, you know, just these pressures around that. And I mean, I feel like what woman is, especially younger women, you know, really, really worried about whether they’ve met certain milestones at at every age. I mean, I hear it with young women. Oh my god, I’m 25 now. I’m a quarter century. This is huge, right? Oh, I’m 30, three decades in, where am I at? So there are all these other demands around achievement, professional achievement. Scholastic achievement, nevermind, you know, your body, whether it comports to the thing that is di desirable and is doing the thing it needs to do, that it’s athletic and that it’s light, that it’s, it can make babies. So it just it’s a lot. And I feel like if we were went through it as, as younger women the intensity is, even greater. and I noticed it myself. It’s probably part of the reason why I’ve, I had to pull away from social media, you know, I’m 53, you know, and feeling like I don’t see many representations of myself too in social media. That is, I don’t know that it’s a space for me either. And you can’t help when you’re in these spaces. Even the most, kind of radical critical of us you know, can fall prey to, the intrusive thoughts of patriarchy around our bodies and aging and our utility. So yeah, it’s worrying, it’s really worrying to me.   [00:22:05] Miko Lee: So I wanna flip the switch on that and ask you, as a 53-year-old, what do you feel most powerful about?   [00:22:13] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : I personally have experienced so much personal loss of people, beloved people. I’ve also witnessed too many people who have not had the opportunity and privilege to reach this age. I think what makes me powerful or what, what makes me feel powerful, or maybe less the term, I don’t know if powerful is the term, but just I feel deep gratitude that my body has, allowed me to live in this form, to this age to have the range of experiences that I’ve been able to experience in this body. Looking at the world through these eyes experiencing it, you know, with this skin. And I just, that is, I guess, a source of power because of the wisdom that it offers. The I think empathy, you know, and compassion that it makes possible. Because you’ve experienced and witnessed so much. I think that there’s a lot that I have also, let go of. I think there were so many kind of insecurities that I think I struggled with as a younger woman that I no longer experience and that feels very empowering. To come to a place. And, and it really comes with life experience, I think. And that you are able to get perspective on things that might’ve, felt as personal failures in the past, but then you can look at differently as just lessons. Along this journey, in life. And I think I’ve just also been blessed with elder women in my life who you know, just are so, unapologetic about who they are, what they think, and how they move in the world. And so I have really great models. That make me excited about the prospects of continuing to, to get older and and being able to kind of experience and learn new things along the way. There’s a power there.    [00:24:26] Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing. Yeah. As somebody who’s 60 this year, I feel like it’s lessons that I’ve learned, but also I don’t care. I don’t care as much I don’t obsess over the little things. I just, and I say what I feel because why not? We’re at a phase in life where, you know, I’ve done a lot of things. I’ve experienced hardship, and I’m just gonna say how I feel where I’m at what’s going on right now? So there’s a freedom to that, that I think is very different from being young. What would you like your podcast audiences to understand?   [00:25:01] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Yeah. You know, I think my podcast audiences need to understand that I am really approaching the podcast from a place of embracing my role as a elder or a young elder. I think it’s a role that, I was struggling a bit with and again, I’m not immune to as much as I feel empowered by being older, I also am not immune to all of the, the messages around youthfulness and value that I think we’re constantly being barraged. But I do recognize that there is a really special role to be played by women in middle age, which I am. And I think that’s what I want audiences to understand, that I am coming into this podcast, doing this podcast from a very specific vantage point. A vantage point that offers insights that on, you know, and of course I’m coming in as me, right? Somebody who still considers herself a scholar, if not necessarily one based at a university. Somebody who’s been a really sort of radical thing and shift by becoming a farmer and doing land based work. That, yeah that they’re going to be hearing, a perspective, you know, from somebody who has been an organizer, continues to do that work, but is also experimenting and risk taking in different ways. They get the chances to hear from a yelder who’s lived a little. Who has a very unique perspective, not just from a particular vantage point in terms of age, but also somebody who’s you know, done the work, studied the thing when it comes to kind of the Asian American experience done the thing it, and when it comes to Asian American, organizing. It’s continued to grow by stepping away from previous ways of being, uh, by doing this work on our farm. You know, I feel like it’s a unique set of perspectives that I’m hoping can offer inspiration or lessons for the moment. But yeah.    [00:27:33] Miko Lee: So last time we talked was a few years ago and you were just getting your farm set up and now you actually have this whole farm. Can you share a little bit more about your connection to the land and what it’s like being a farmer now?   [00:27:48] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Yeah, no, thank you. You’re right. I recall, I think we had literally just moved in when I was in conversation with you, and now we’re at the start of season four. It has been an amazing journey. I’m actually right now and I hope to be able to talk about it on the podcast. I’ve come, I’m in the process of finishing, a book, reflecting on my experiences over the last four years in this transition from university professor to farmer. there’s so much that I’ve learned. One of the major things I’ve, learned especially as an organizer, to differently appreciate all of the metaphors we use in organizing. cause we use them a lot, right? How do we describe certain kinds of organizing? We, we describe it as grassroots. How do we talk about the ways we might be building our, you know, struggles of resistance? We think about ourselves as sowing seeds. More and more people talk about, you know, mycchorizal networks. There are all of these metaphors that proliferate when we’re thinking about, struggles for justice. And there is something that shifts when you do land-based work and really understand and learn at the knee of mother nature around all the things that are required for cultivating life, which for me, I think is what activism and, organizing really is about. You know, we live in a system that ultimately thrives on death. I mean, war, empire, capitalism, disposability, you know, all of that is, is a system that thrives actually on, on death. And I think that when we’re organizing as folks who are activists, social justice activists, ecological and environmental justice activists and organizers, what we’re doing is we’re in the business, so to speak, of cultivating life. But how best to learn about how to cultivate life, if not at the knee of of Mother Nature. And so I’ve learned a lot about that. Learned about you know, how long it can take. In fact for, plant sowing a seed a seed can only germinate, you know, and there’s the right kinds of conditions and even the right kind of conditions can’t be fully predicted. You tend to that ground, that soil anyhow, you know, seeds being so small and nearly invisible to the eye and yet, we know them to be there and we, we support their growth. Seeds when under the right conditions germinate and grow can become these healthy, mature plants. One singular plant can feed so many, I mean, all of those lessons when you understand them in deeply embodied ways, I think allow you to approach organizing and activism differently. I think especially now, there seems to be an urgency to everything. Everything feels urgent. Um. Something needs to be responded to, you know, immediately it feels like all the time. and that not responding somehow is being complacent or enabling. But I think what I’ve learned as a farmer is that transformation in life takes time and we need to tend to that. And I mean, I feel like I think organizers would benefit a lot from, doing land-based work. Not only because the earth needs us to do this work of regeneration and restoration, but I think we would have better perspective around, what liberation would look like and require, from these systems of domination and power if we, you know, humbled ourselves a bit and learned from. Mother Nature, and the ways that, you know, she’s endured through it all and, you know, adapted through it all. I think, I think there are important lessons there, but lessons that I think that really require a work of embodied learning and knowledge.    [00:31:56] Miko Lee: So you speak of your farm as this, as a place that’s cultivating growth, and can you talk a little bit more about that, cultivating the mind? Because I know you’re also doing work on your farm with organizers, with nonprofits, with students. So can you talk a little bit more about the cultivation of people on your farm?    [00:32:15] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, so much of what we do isn’t just about the food that we grow, which we do, and I shouldn’t name that, you know, a lot of. our aim with food growing is not just to feed, you know, sort of a community of people who’ve opted in to get food from us, which, you know, we do have a CSA, a Community sourced agricultural program, but we’re also working with native communities here to support in addressing their food needs. So that’s. Important, piece of what we do that I wanna name in terms of food and plant production. But yes, in terms of cultivating people, I think a lot of what we do here is about facilitating this reconnection to land. I grew up a very urban, suburban existence. I think it always as an organizer and activist, valued ecological and, environmental justice. But I don’t know that I centered it in the way that I do now, in part because I didn’t. Have a relationship with the land in the way that we do now. I really think that our work is to help cultivate that relationship. I think we need that relationship to fully appreciate what’s at stake when we talk about climate change. It’s one thing to kind of know the facts. It’s another thing to be in relation to the land, and I think it takes a certain set of conditions to be able to, to be in relation to the land. So yeah, we, we hold space for lots of organizations, educational institutions, nonprofits, community-based organizations, other folks, who also are feeling that there is a need to be in relation to the land. Not only to be in a relationship, but to be in a right relationship with the land. So we, we hold space for a lot of that. And of course that process is also deeply healing. There is something really healing about learning from the land. just understanding there’s something really magical like, for example, when you come out of winter and you start to see new growth, I think that cycle of growth offers a kind of hope and reassurance when we’re feeling especially despairing, which I think a lot of people feel tremendous despair now. And yet, you know, being bearing witness to that is it can be super just powerful and can kind of keep and sustain the fight.   [00:34:37] Miko Lee: And lastly, can you share more about your school for Liberating education?    [00:34:42] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Sure. So the School for Liberating Education is an online platform through which I share all of the ethnic studies knowledge that I was teaching at the university. Most recently at the University of California Davis, you know, always believed ethnic studies was never intended to be just another academic field like anthropology, sociology, political science. But that, it is a form of knowledge that is meant to raise our consciousness to inspire and to provide us real skillsets and pathways to taking that knowledge and doing the work of changing our world for the better. And so, you know, the School for Liberating Education I set up so that people can have access to that knowledge without having to go through. All of the, the, hoops that are required for, you know, getting into a four year university, even all of the kind of bureaucracy it takes to get even to a community college, which is not as easy as one would think. But also a very unapologetic, form of ethnic studies. I think part of what’s happening at colleges and universities now is, these are battlegrounds. The, right wing has taken it upon itself to really attack ethnic studies in various institutions. They’ve been very successful in gaining, Support. University administrations have also been very easily bent not only kind of grassroots right wing movements because they’re really organized at the grasses, but certainly the series of executive orders that Trump passed, you know, within days after inauguration. Effectively illegalizing ethnic studies and of course we know what he’s trying to do in terms of, the Department of Education and, its, effective dismantlement. But this is meant as a place to offer the knowledge that our forebearers and fought really hard for the university, but can’t really fully thrive there either. And so, I wanted to make sure that there was a place where this knowledge can be accessed, to anybody with the interest and desire.    [00:36:55] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for chatting with us today. I’m wondering if there’s anything you would like podcast listeners to prepare themselves for before they bust out Spotify and listen to Spitting Fire.   [00:37:10] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Well, it’s just, you know, to, you’re gonna get a lot of raw, unedited audio. And so, um, you’re gonna kind of get just, you know, as the, the host of the, show me in a very unedited, very unfiltered form, which can be, I hope enjoyable for folks. But, you know, I think people will, will learn a lot, and a lot of the topics are rooted in the things that I care about. Certainly social justice issues certainly even, you know, the work we’re doing at the farm. So, you know, I, I mean, it’s broadly, uh, the podcast is around social and ecological justice. But very much from the lens of somebody who, again, is a yelder, somebody who’s taught ethnic studies, continues to teach, although not at the university. Um, somebody who does the work of kind of social and ecological justice organizing and is doing land-based work. So, you’re getting all of the, the things that connect to all of the ways that I, I’m moving in the world right now.    [00:38:15] Miko Lee: Thank you so much Dr. Robyn for joining us today on Apex Express.   [00:38:20] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Thank you so much again for having me.   [00:38:38] Welcome everybody, to Resistance, Defiant Love, and Radical Care. Today we are launching, uh, the pre-registration for my new activism course, my course on Asian American activism, and it will be drawing on my book, co-edited with Diane Fujino, uh, Professor Diane Fujino, entitled Contemporary Asian American Activism: Building Movements for Liberation.   [00:39:09] I’m really, really excited that the book is coming out, but probably even more excited that I’ll be able to launch a mini course that draws from that book, as well as other work on Asian American activism, and that I’ll be able to offer a mini course that really looks at Asian American activism in the coming months.   [00:39:30] And I’m very, very, very, very pleased to be joined by Artnelson Concordia. Artnelson and I actually hopped on earlier and we went back to, to just recollect when we met and how long ago, and I’ll talk about that in a moment. But, um, oh, I guess I might as well just say, Art and I have known each other for exa- almost exactly half of our lives.   [00:39:54] Um- So we first met when we were only 12. Just kidding. We met when we were 25 years old. We, uh, so that was half of our lives. You do the math. Um, and, uh, it, it’s just so wonderful, uh, to, to be able to reconnect, uh, with Artnelson in this way. But we go back, and as we’ll talk about later on, we go back, um, 25 years ago, uh, where we, when we first met, uh, through, uh, our work, uh, in, in activist spaces.   [00:40:27] But Artnelson Concordia was born and raised in the Echo Park neighborhood of Los Angeles. The son of working class Filipino immigrants, he earned BAs in political science and history at the University of California in Los Angeles, so UCLA. Artnelson is a longtime educator who got his start in San Francisco and was a founding teacher of the San Francisco Unified School District’s Ethnic Studies program that was the focus of a 2014 Stanford University study that highlighted the academic benefits of the district’s ninth grade ethnic studies course.   [00:41:02] That’s Artnelson. Currently, he coordinates Santa Barbara Unified School District’s ethnic studies program. Artnelson is the father of four Brown boys, four beautiful Brown boys, and is in cahoots with his wife to raise them to have deep knowledge and love of self and community, as well as to be active disruptors of the white supremacist, patriarchal, heteronormative, imperialist hegemony.   [00:41:29] Yeah. He and his family have the great privilege to live in the beautiful town of Oxnard, California, which is unceded Chumash territory. And this fall marks the beginning of his 23rd year in education. And as I was saying before, Art and I go way, way back. We met right after we had both graduated from college.   [00:41:52] And yeah, as… Art and I are here to talk story a little bit about our shared activist path, because really, uh, it ma- it seems it’s so appropriate to talk about our shared path as activists and educators because this pivot for me to offering, uh, courses through the School for Liberating Education has everything to do with my activism and everything to do with my deep, deep belief that education, uh, and a critical education, uh, can be so vital for, uh, movement building, for building the world that we want.   [00:42:29] So I’m gonna just hand it over to you, Art. And we can just start. But it’s so great to see you and have this chance to chat.    [00:42:37] Artnelson Concordia: Right on. What a, what an introduction, uh, hearing that coming from you. Um, and- Reflecting on the time and how quickly that really does fly. And I think it’s actually more than 25.   [00:42:50] We’ve known each other more than 25 years. Um, and I think, yeah, that’s more than half of our lives. But I think the moment that we, we met each other, we were already on our journey to, to really committing ourselves to figuring out, you know, what the hell is going on with this world. I mean, beginning with our own lived experiences and what’s, what was happening with our communities.   [00:43:18] Um, but yeah, education has always been central, and I think my, my path to really focusing in on that was in, in organizing spaces before I became a teacher. It was so key in bringing people to to support and be a part of whatever issue. Like, it was, well, how do we move people? Well, w- we tell them the truth.   [00:43:47] We, we tell them the… an all-rounded kind of breakdown of how it will impact them and why they should get involved. And the, the, the think, um, really that is, was my introduction to organizing. Um, I think in community college, uh, I got to meet, um, a long time Filipino American, uh, organizer-activist, Royal Morales, was really my first introduction to Filipino American history and identity.   [00:44:23] And from there, it just really took off. Like, so much of the suffering, struggling, and questions I had about my own life was answered. I mean, of course over time, but it kept, it kept, it kept, uh, bringing me along, bringing me along, and I was hooked. I was hooked after that. Um, yeah, the power of education to really transform lives is, has been a theme throughout.   [00:44:53] Uh, and I’m sure for you as well. I, I- Yeah … the, the spaces that we, we shared were always about, like, getting to root problems and how everything is related inside.    [00:45:06] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Yeah. No, absolutely. It’s funny, I was just thinking, I don’t… You know, I think we might have first encountered each other indirectly around the, the fight against Proposition 209.   [00:45:19] Oh. Uh, you know, right? And maybe even before that, around Proposition 187. 187. Y- yeah. And so for people who don’t know, and actually I end up writing… I ended up writing a chapter on, uh, student organizing, specifically around 187 and 209, in this book. So, you know, the book itself, um, so, you know, Professor Fujino, who happened to, happened to be my professor as an undergrad, so she’s now my collaborator.   [00:45:47] But, um, Diane, uh, and I kind of pulled a, a whole range of organizers together to contribute to this anthology, but I also ended up contributing a separate chapter to it, and it was a reflection on the ’90s, and specifically our campus organizing across the UC system- Mm-hmm … around first 187 and 209. And for people who aren’t familiar with it, you know, 187 was this, uh, this terrible, um, voter initiative that ended up being passed by the state of California that would essentially criminalize, um, undocumented Californians.   [00:46:24] And not just that, it was really going to, uh, m- make- teachers and, uh, and social workers and anybody who worked for the state of California stand in as border agents.    [00:46:37] Artnelson Concordia: Right. ‘   [00:46:38] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Cause basically it would be their, their responsibility as employees of the state of California to report on anybody seeking out service or that they’re encountering in the space of their jobs, to report them if they were, if, if they suspected that these individuals, if they suspected these individuals- Yeah, yeah [00:46:58] were, um, undocumented. And so, you know, uh, Art and I and so many other UC students, uh, were, you know, going, um, were organizing in, in, in partnership with community organizations to, of course, try to stop Californians from, from, from voting for 187. W- they did, and of course that ended up not becoming law because it got, you know, challenged in, in the courts.   [00:47:24] Right. But nevertheless, we were part of the resistance movement. And then, uh, after 187 was Proposition 209, which essentially eliminated affirmative action programs, um, in, in, uh, the University of California system. And, you know, I know, you know, that was also something that was also meaningful for, for us.    [00:47:45] Artnelson Concordia: Yeah.    [00:47:45] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : You know, uh, as, as, as young people who were also very much recipients of affirmative action programs. Yeah. Um, some of our ethnic studies knowledge was not even necessarily coming through ethnic studies courses, but oftentimes through the counselors and, and other staff who worked in these affirmative action programs.   [00:48:06] And so, you know, that was, that was going to happen. Right. And it did, right? Had such a deep impact on us. Yeah. And we knew that, um, by making affirmative action, um, by eliminating affirmative action, it was going to have a major impact. Which it did, right? Mm-hmm. The Filipino, at least for Filipino Americans, our numbers at the UC system plum- plummeted after that.   [00:48:25] Plummeted. But I think that’s when we first met, and then, but it was really afterwards where, where we really connected more, right? When- Hmm … um, I think you and I both, because we, we, uh, found ourselves, uh, with the, the, the, the opportunity to connect with, uh, people who were really active in the anti-martial ma- law, the anti-martial law movement, right?   [00:48:48] Um, for both of us. Yeah,    [00:48:49] Artnelson Concordia: in the Philippines. Yeah.    [00:48:50] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : Yeah. They were people who, uh, were already active in, um, the movement against the dictatorship- had come to the United States fleeing the tyranny of the Marcos dictatorship. Mm-hmm. And then were really responsible in, uh, growing the, uh, anti-martial law movement in the US, and I think, you know, at the time we met, of course martial law had ended, but, but the conditions in the Philippines hadn’t changed. Still haven’t changed.    [00:49:17] Artnelson Concordia: Yeah.    [00:49:17] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : And so our elders saw us, we saw them, right? I think. I mean, I can’t even remember how I    [00:49:24] Artnelson Concordia: first met some of them. Looking for each other, I really feel.   [00:49:25] Dr Robyn Rodriguez : I think, you know, we, we end up gravitating to the same- Yeah … spaces, right? And we knew that that was something, you know, we wanted to be part of. T- maybe tell me about your story. How did you kind of find your way into that work and, and how did it resonate with you? But I know that that was really where we built together was- yeah … in the work around the Filipino, um, you know, liberation struggle.   [00:49:47] Artnelson Concordia: Yeah. Our, our paths definitely, um, crossed then, and my, my journey to that point really was through the Black liberation movement- Yeah where I, in undergrad, um, was exposed to the history of the Panthers, and I… And it was immediate, like in terms of the truth they were telling and how they resonated with me. I just swallowed text after text after text. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, To Die for the People, uh, uh, Huey’s Revolutionary Suicide, Elaine Brown’s, uh, Taste of Power- Mm-hmm   [00:50:25] Bobby Se- Seize the Time. I, I, I was so, um, I don’t know, kind of- Absolutely, like, fascinated and inspired and wanting to find, well, what’s the equivalent for, for Filipinos? Yes. And that was, that of course leads me from, um, Uncle Roy or Royal Morales, who’s really talking about Filipino-American activism in History.   [00:50:55] Mm-hmm. And I got a lot of the really incredible, um, participation and organizing with the farm workers, but it kind of just would stop, and I, and I was curious about, well, what is existing now? And it was my meeting, um, it was a, a brother mentor, Ed- Edwin Ha- Habaquan. Edwin. And he, uh- I went with Edwin at the same time.   [00:51:25] Yeah. He was the, the founder of this Filipino apparel company, right? Tribal Pinoy. Oh my gosh. And I, um, I worked for the Filipino American newspaper for Samahang Pilipino at UCLA, Tan- Tanawin, and I only wrote one, maybe, maybe two articles. But the one article I, I, I very much remember, and I, I, I need to go find that article now, was an interview with Edwin, um, about Filipino-American activism. And he was like, “Look, it didn’t just end with the farm workers. It continues today through this national liberation movement in the Philippines.”   [00:52:15] Ayame Keane-Lee: You just listened to a clip from Spitting Fire: Doktora Robyn Speaks from tonight’s guest, Dr. Robyn Rodriguez. This episode is called Resistance, Defiant Love, and Radical Care: Asian American Activism Course Launch with Artnelson Concordia. You can check it out in our show notes. Thank you so much for listening   [00:52:36] Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night The post APEX Express – 6.25.26 – Spitting Fire: Doktora Robyn Speaks appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 6.18.26 Talk Story with Thao Nguyen 18.06.2026 59мин

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight on Apex Express, Host Miko Lee talk story with singer-songwriter Thao Nguyen.  Hear about her new album Fossil,  her short documentary, and about her artistic inspirations. Thao’s tour starts this week in North Carolina, so listen in to hear from the brilliant Thao, and then check out her website to catch a live show.   SHOW TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.   [00:00:35] Miko Lee: Tonight on Apex Express, we talk story with singer-songwriter Thao Nguyen. Join me, your host, Miko Lee, as I talk with this multi-hyphenated artist. We get to hear about her new album, chat about her short documentary, and hear about her artistic inspirations. Thao’s tour starts this week in North Carolina, so listen in to hear from the brilliant Thao, and then check out her website to catch a live show.   [00:01:05] Ayame Keane-Lee: In today’s show, you’ll be listening to some songs from Thao & The Get Down Stay Down’s 2020 album, Temple. First off, let’s listen to “Pure Cinema.”   MUSIC     [00:05:44] That was “Pure Cinema” by today’s guest, Thao Nguyen. Let’s get to the interview.   [00:05:50] Miko Lee: Welcome  Thao Nguyen to Apex Express.    [00:05:54] Thao Nguyen: Thank you. I’m so happy to be here.    [00:05:57] Miko Lee: I love talking with creative people and you’re such an amazingly talented singer and songwriter and imagination creator. I’m wanna start with the first question I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   [00:06:16] Thao Nguyen: Who are my people? Some of them include the family I was born into. I’m from Virginia. I was born and raised in Virginia. but I’m the daughter of Vietnamese refugees of war. And, I moved out to the Bay in 2006 after my first US tour. And, I’m so fortunate to have such a robust community here in the bay and all of my chosen family here.   [00:06:40] Miko Lee: And what legacy do you carry with you?    [00:06:43] Thao Nguyen: What legacy? I think the legacy I prioritize. I think, you know, [laughs] we inherit a lot and as time goes on and we get older, we realize everything is finite and you have to choose which legacies you choose to continue, and perpetuate and honor and what you have to leave by the wayside. And so the things I choose to continue and celebrate are that of a real ability to be very present and in the moment and available to joy and I think the people I come from are really good at metabolizing joy because they know the flip side of it so well.    [00:07:23] Miko Lee: Ooh, that’s so interesting. Can you speak more about what it means to metabolize joy?    [00:07:30] Thao Nguyen: [Laughs] uh, an ongoing practice? I think it is to be truly present and I believe, of course gratitude goes a long way, but I to fully metabolize it is to allow yourself to feel embodied in it. And, you know, there’s more somatic practice I think that to actually feel it course through your body, you are allowing it, you’re honoring it as completely as possible. And, do you have to acknowledge that it’s happening as it’s happening? You know, I think that’s having true presence with it.   [00:08:08] Miko Lee: Can you roll back with me in time and talk about your earliest childhood memories of being a singer or songwriting? What came first?    [00:08:18] Thao Nguyen: I loved music from a very early age, but I didn’t have a lot of access to it, to making it, it was more as a listener. The soundscape that I grew up with, there was a series called Paris by Night, which probably you’ve heard of within Vietnamese diaspora, uh, community and Culture. And it was this variety show that was, created by, people who had to flee Vietnam. And originally it was in Paris and it showcased A lot of singers and performers, who had fled, either before, during, or right after the fall of Saigon. And, it was this one gathering wherein. entertainers from the different generations, from my grandmother’s generation, from my parents were able to coalesce and exist together. And there was just this sampler platter of a lot of different sonic influences. And then you had the younger generation, which was reinterpreting what American pop music was at the time. So you’d have my grandmother who [sang] cải lương which was this incredibly, it’s like, almost like folk operatic, very dramatic, theatrical singing with a lot of pitch bending and, which I didn’t understand that I was absorbing it in such a way that I would recreate it later on in my playing, but I would go on to credit it to being from Virginia and saying it was more of like an Appalachian influence, which it was as well. But the origins, the true origins were within my soundscape before I understood what that was. You know, so you have that and then you have, an artist named Lynette who’s. basically in reinterpreting, like the latest Madonna song and has a cone bra on, so everyone’s existing act after act in the same, um, sorry for that ramble. Did I answer that question?    [00:10:13] Miko Lee: Yeah. Uh, I, so what was, do you remember the age or you just grew up hearing all these different kinds of sounds?    [00:10:20] Thao Nguyen: I mean, that was from before I knew what age I was, you know, that was just like, and that was such, um. For the community and within my family it was such an event every time one of these, you know, double VHS things were issued that people would be making copies, someone would drop it off at the house. You know, there, there was always one or two in circulation, but it was this. Event that you’d,    [00:10:43] Miko Lee: are these like bootleg copies?    [00:10:45] Thao Nguyen: Yeah, there’s like, wow, there’s bootleg. There’s also, there was one book in music store in Eden Shopping Center, which was like the hub of, of the Vietnamese community in, in, uh, Northern Virginia. And so someone would buy the original and then go and bootleg it. You don’t know how you ended up with what, but just like they would drop off some citrus and and Hennessy or whatever, and then the Paris By Night thing. And um,    [00:11:11] Miko Lee: I love that the combo citrus, Hennessy and some music.   [00:11:16] Thao Nguyen: Everything is a digestif, you know? And, um, so I would have that. But then of course, I, you know, I, I listened to the radio. That was what, that was my main resource and I listened to the oldie station the most, and I loved Motown. And I remember, in this I was like five or six, we had these large speakers that’s sat on the floor either side of, of this cassette deck, radio unit. And I would lay down and, every time Smokey Robinson came on, “You really got a hold of me” that was like my favorite song and I would tape it and then so either I would listen to it live or I would play the cassette and I would just lay down and get as close to the speakers as I could. But at that point, I hadn’t seen who Smokey Robinson was, and I imagined, because I also am a child of eighties and nineties. I imagined it was Crystal who was Roseanne’s best friend from the Roseanne show. You know, I didn’t know anything, but I felt all of it.    [00:12:20] Miko Lee: Wow. Yeah. I love that. So, I love that. And I was really wondering, I heard this story about you, that you actually did a rap for on Charlotte’s Web when you were in elementary school.   [00:12:33] Thao Nguyen: Okay. Okay. This is a deep cut. You’ve done some research.    [00:12:39] Miko Lee: Tell me about how that came to be. So you must have been introduced to rap pretty young to be doing that.    [00:12:44] Thao Nguyen: Oh, absolutely. This, so this was another, and this, I’m so glad you brought that up, because all of this is, every genre, every kind of music I, at this point is so vital to me, and it actually goes on to reflect the kind of music I make. And so I have an older brother who’s almost eight years older, and around this same time, he’s a huge hip hop fan, or that’s one of the things he loves, he loves like Duran Duran and like the Fat Boys, you know? And , when I saved money, the first cassette I ever bought was Salt-n-Pepa. And I, yeah, so I was listento the Fat Boys and Queen Latifah. And I loved, I loved every, I loved to hear the flow, the different cadences and in third grade I was voted best rapper. This, and, you know, not coincidentally. This is the year I, I do the book report, the Charlotte’s Web, you know, and they gave me the option. You can either write it or you can write a song or whatever. And so I wrote a rap about Charlotte’s Web, but I was too shy. I had recorded it and just played it in my presentation. I didn’t perform it live.    [00:13:51] Miko Lee: And how was it received?    [00:13:54] Thao Nguyen: I mean, I can still hear the roar. yeah, everyone, [laughs] I think the teachers    [00:14:01] Miko Lee: The crowd roared. The third graders roared.    [00:14:03] Thao Nguyen: Yeah. I mean, everyone’s standing on their desks. It’s rickety, you know, teachers are worried about child safety, it doesn’t matter. They’re like, Encore. I’m like, I don’t have anything else. Uh, you know, uh,   [00:14:15] Miko Lee: Wait for real?   [00:14:17] Thao Nguyen: No, no. [laughs] the teachers thought it was cute. Probably the kids thought it was funny. I actually don’t know because I was so nervous I even pressing play. I was so nervous. I don’t know if I registered what, how it was received.    [00:14:34] Miko Lee: That’s so sweet. Given your eclectic music knowledge and the music that was around you at the time as a musician, now you’ve been described with so many different categories, country tinge, indie folk, pop, blues. How would you describe your music?  [00:14:54] Thao Nguyen: I would describe it as. What’s embarrassing is I’ve been doing this a long time now and I’ve never figured out a way to describe it. I would, I, I generally just say it’s, you know, it’s under the umbrella of indie rock, but influenced by jazz and hip hop. And because I learned to play guitar by picking out country blues songs. And because I grew up in Virginia, there, there are these, like old time, Country blues picking patterns that I’ve used. I, you know, it’s, yeah. So that, I’ve never figured out a way to say it succinctly and I continue    [00:15:29] Miko Lee: and you don’t need to. That’s okay.    [00:15:31] Thao Nguyen: Thank you.    [00:15:31] Miko Lee: Is there a big Vietnamese population in Virginia?    [00:15:35] Thao Nguyen: Yeah, I, I think there is a very healthy population there. And it was one of the first places that people were settling when they were being resettled. And my parents met, in a refugee camp in Guam. And then they were sent to Arkansas. And then from there sponsored out to North Carolina. And then from there of a few friends that they had made, had found work with Metro, which is the public transportation train system in DC and found my dad work there. So that’s why people resettle, that’s why we ended up in Virginia.    [00:16:16] Miko Lee: So Thao & The Get Down Stay Down you released five studio albums and now you’re working primarily as a solo artist. Right?    [00:16:25] Thao Nguyen: Yes. Yeah. I will say I still work record and perform with a band. And a lot of the people who worked and performed with me in that iteration are still with me. it was more I wanted to, just use my name and move beyond what the get down stay down was, which I was never really sure. With things that you choose when you’re 22. As time goes, you know, it starts to, and you’re lucky if you can kind of shed things and not, not stay beholden too much.   [00:16:57] Miko Lee: Ah, what have you learned to shed?   [00:17:02] Thao Nguyen: Oh my gosh. Thankfully a great deal and it’s an ongoing exercise, but. I used to be so much heavier with the weight of what I thought a serious artist was what I thought a serious songwriter should be, who I thought, where I thought my, you know, different benchmarks of what success were. What I should be making versus what people wanted to hear versus what I wanted to hear. I actually never I wasn’t always all the way sure about what I wanted. You know, I, I think a lot of people encounter that, but I’ve thankfully been able to shed as much as I can. It’s an ongoing practice, but I, you know, one thing it. Is that I used to think, I can’t believe I’ve been doing this this long. And it’s, not necessarily, I didn’t understand what I was working towards, but only that I had not gotten there yet. And then, you know, I think pandemic and on, I’ve been just so and as I get older, the transition into being so sincerely grateful that I’m still here and I get to do this. this is what my job is, and however I can, and whatever I can do to sustain, being able to, to do this for my livelihood and maintain my integrity within it is the greatest gift. So as when I made that switch a a lot of things, a lot of the darkness left me.    [00:18:39] Miko Lee: Oh, that’s beautiful. Thank you for sharing.   [00:18:42] Ayame Keane-Lee: Next, let’s listen to Temple, the first track off of Thao’s album of the same name.   MUSIC   [00:22:56] That was Temple by Thao and the Get Down Stay Down. Back to her interview with Miko.   [00:23:01] Miko Lee: I’m wondering if you could talk a little bit about the 2017 documentary Nobody Dies, a film about a musician, her mom in Vietnam. How did that, and that’s a documentary that follows you and your mom as you go to Vietnam. I’m wondering how that project came about.  [00:23:17] Thao Nguyen: Yes, I’m happy to tell you about it. in 2015 I was invited by concert promoters in conjunction with the US Embassy based in Hanoi, to come perform for the, I guess at that point it was the 25th anniversary of the normalization of relations between the US and Vietnam, and I was able to bring my band and I was able to bring my mom, and she hadn’t been back in 43 years, and she used to work for the South Vietnamese embassy and was stationed in Lao, when Saigon fell. So she actually left Vietnam in 73, assuming she would go back after her time abroad and then was never able to return. So I was able to bring her, the struggle was would she actually come, you know, and we had, I had, a bear of the time initially convincing her it would be okay. And, it was like, just begging her to come. She’s like freaking out. She hangs up on me. I call back. She hangs up. You know, it was a back and forth that I’m trying to convince her of things that I’m not sure of where she’s like, I’m still on a list. I’m like, no, you’re not. But I don’t know that, you know who, how would I know that? But I told her she wasn’t on the list. Anyway, my, a friend of mine who’s a filmmaker, as this all was happening, he asked if he could come along and document all of it. And he and, his DP traveled with us and it was an incredibly intense trip, and it was beautiful and I am so glad it was documented. And then somewhere along the way I had a performance and, this was all in editing. And then I ran into Don Young at CAAM Center for Asian American Media. Oh, I know what it was. It was something for Sundance and Don Young and I were just in the same shuttle going to the airport and we were talking and I told him a little bit about this and then I sent him some footage and you know, and then CAAM and PBS were gracious enough to co-produce and, Make it so it could be, you know, a a half hour documentary that aired on PBS. Um,    [00:25:21] Miko Lee: so that that was on a bus ride.    [00:25:23] Thao Nguyen: That was on an airport shuttle.    [00:25:25] Miko Lee: Airport shuttle. I love it.    [00:25:26] Thao Nguyen: Yeah [laughs].    [00:25:28] Miko Lee: So was it hard to convince your mom, I know it was hard to convince her to go to Vietnam. Was it hard to convince her also then to be on film? What was her response to that?    [00:25:37] Thao Nguyen: Well, luckily for all of us, my mom loves to be on film and is, um, a total flirt and ham and. Oh,    [00:25:48] Miko Lee: so that was a bonus. That was like a,    [00:25:49] Thao Nguyen: that was a bonus. The camera loves her. As did the film director, my friend Todd, she loved it. And she just, she comes alive and she’s a true performer. And, it was really beautiful to see her in this element that I, I didn’t know if I’d ever, I actually. Never thought I’d get to see her this way. You know, I grew up, both my brother and I grew up translating for her, it is sort of at every, at every level. And, we’d go out to restaurants and it’s not that she, you know, it’s like she would get shy and then it would just easier, it always just became easier if we just did it for her. But, so we’d order for restaurants and, and to see her. not to say that she doesn’t I mean, she was a small business owner. She owned a laundromat, dry cleaners in Virginia and totally is the reason why everybody is alive, you know? But, to see her move so seamlessly and easily, I’m sorry, it’s emotional in the world was this, such a gift I didn’t know I’d get. And, You see her haggling with people, you know, and, and she’s directing as she’s pointing out. Yeah. It was just a really, no matter how long someone has been away from the place they were born, you know, to see them back there is, um, it was, yeah, it was just such a beautiful gift and I’m glad we have it on film.   [00:27:17] Miko Lee: Did you discuss that with your mom? How different that was for you to see her in a different way?    [00:27:22] Thao Nguyen: You know, not, not, um, not directly. I’ve written about it, but I’ve not, we don’t have the kind of, Yeah. That, that’s never come up in those ways. You know, we talk a lot. I basically, I try to call her at least, uh, almost every day, just ’cause she lives across the country. So I wanna just be sure that, you know, I’m just doing these like, casual wellness checks, but we don’t often get into those more philosophical conversations. Um, but she did, you know, the, the song Temple, Which would become the lead single of the album Temple was, inspired by this moment of candor that I had never experienced before and I would never experience again. It happened one night when we were in Vietnam and she just said outta nowhere. You have to understand what freedom is and you have to understand why a million people would risk their lives at sea, and I can’t. I can’t teach you that. I can’t help you with it. You have to know for yourself. And that’s what became, the song Temple where wherein she’s speaking to me about her life before, during, and after war.   [00:28:35] Miko Lee: That’s so powerful. Thank you for sharing. I, I appreciate that about your music, the personal, visions and dreams and pain that you experience putting that in. Is there another song of yours that really stands out to you?    [00:28:51] Thao Nguyen: Another one. Aside from that?    [00:28:53] Miko Lee: Aside from that.    [00:28:54] Thao Nguyen: There’s. You know, yes, there’s a, there’s definitely a few from this new album that is, that I just finished and it’s releasing in September. From that same album Temple there’s, the song Marrow. there’s a few. That album is as much, it was, it was this, I just had this, I knew that I had to make it both about, what my Vietnamese identity is and what it is to be queer in Vietnamese and stay in the culture, which is not something that I thought I could do. So yeah, I would say both Temple and Marrow encapsulate, this effort to fully align myself in ways that I hadn’t been able to.    [00:29:40] Miko Lee: And what is Marrow about?    [00:29:42] Thao Nguyen: Marrow is about what it means to fully accept yourself so that you could offer yourself to the rest of your life. You know, it’s, it’s like.   [00:29:54] Miko Lee: That’s all.   [00:29:56] Thao Nguyen: That’s all. And it’s, and it was against the backdrop of getting married. but it was more about me coming to terms with not even coming to terms, like even that language is so, disparaging. It’s, it was just about claiming myself and saying to my family, I need to be, you know, I, I need to be my full self and I believe I can be with you still. But you know, the lines are, It’s so funny. I sing it all the time and I can’t do that. The line I’m thinking of in particular is, at that point I’m apologizing to my partner at the time and saying, you know, I am basically, I couldn’t claim us because of this barrier, but I’m sorry to you and I’m sorry to me, and the, you know. I have grief in my marrow. Will you marry me still? So is it, that’s a roundabout way of explaining what that, what that song is.   [00:30:54] MUSIC    [00:34:24] Ayame Keane-Lee: You just listened to “Marrow” by tonight’s guest, Thao Nguyen.    [00:34:28] Miko Lee: You talk about Temple and how that was based on this trip you took in 2015, right? 2016. How long does it generally take you for a song to germinate?    [00:34:41] Thao Nguyen: You know, that one, um, that’s, that is an example of a, a longer, uh, gestation period because it was such an intense, because Vietnam was such an intense time. Uh, it was months, maybe it was two years before I could even think about it, honestly. And there are other things that happen. I wish things happened more instantaneously. It’s very rare that a whole song will just present itself. You know, temple, that song in particular, when I started writing it, it took maybe two hours, but it took me two years to get to the point where I could    [00:35:20] Miko Lee: And it just came to you in two hours?   [00:35:22] Thao Nguyen: Yeah. It just came, just the vision. All those, the imagery, everything that I’d wanted to say. It just, I understood how. To present it. And I think I had tried in other forms over that time, but it just wasn’t ready. Other songs, um, yeah, anywhere from it’s, it’s like the chorus or a hook or a verse will come very quickly, and then the time, the more arduous stuff is building around it to make sure that it, it, you know, it’s properly bolstered. Like I, if I believe in a hook, then I’ll, I’ll try to build the house around it.    [00:36:02] Miko Lee: And how, what do you do? Do you just record it straight up right when you get the hook, like on a small device or what’s your process?    [00:36:09] Thao Nguyen: It um, typically I’m playing an instrument, either guitar or piano or I’ve written, you know, sometimes I get bored, I write on other instruments, but primarily it’s guitar, piano, and, um. It’ll be the melodic hook only on the instrument, and then I’ll put words. But yeah, it’s, I, I just use voice memos and then as I’m building it, then I’ll move into pro tools and, and, and record a more proper demo.    [00:36:40] Miko Lee: And do you have a set working process or you just vibe it whenever you’re feeling it? And I ask because I always ask this of artists. Because I think it’s so interesting, what is the discipline it takes for your art form? And I remember I interviewed Isabel Allende years ago and she said, yes, I make myself go in my studio at 8:00 AM every day. And even if I can’t write, I sit there from this time to this time. So what, what is your process like? Or do you have a set process?    [00:37:05] Thao Nguyen: Yes. Absolutely. And it’s taken me so many years to figure out what my set process is and to have the discipline to really, really, um, I do believe it is a daily practice and it is a daily discipline and I’m so afraid of what happens when I slip out of it because I know what happens. I’ve tumbled into this very dark, deep well of despair and I don’t know. You, you start to question what your whole purpose is. It gets bad very quickly, right? So I’m always trying to stay on the side of not completely sliding down. Not to say it isn’t very joyful and I mean this a very lucky position to be in. One of the things that’s been going on for the last few years is I have multiple projects going on at once and I do have to figure out, I had an, um, the album is just finished thankfully, but I am developing a musical and I’m also writing a book. And so I have to figure out, I divvy out the days. I would like to say that I can work on all three in one day, not possible. So I have to choose, um. And it’s always, the morning time is the best for generating something from nothing. And then I try not to edit or revise or question it until that afternoon or later. Actually, you don’t question it within that same day. Like the main, I think the main priority for me is maintaining momentum and optimism. So I need to do whatever it is to thwart whatever part of me is trying to take it down. Um, so I’ll work in the morning for a few hours and then leave it, you know, and as writers say, leave it no matter if it’s songwriting or whatever, like leave it at a place where you, when you start again, you feel good about it and you know what the next step is.   [00:39:08] Miko Lee: Do you have a set time? It’s like just the morning from this time to this time. And then do you say musical today? Book today. Album today. How do you do that?    [00:39:17] Thao Nguyen: Well, it depends on the deadlines.    [00:39:21] Miko Lee: Of course.    [00:39:22] Thao Nguyen: I, yeah, I, I work to the deadline. ’cause there’s always, thankfully, there’s always at least one happening and yeah, I. I love this by the way, because I actually, when I’m stuck, I just look up different routines for writers and artists. It’s like my favorite thing to do. So I love to participate in this conversation. Um, but I wake up, I meditate, I try to do a little stretching, and then I do a walk. It depends on where I’m working. Okay? Here’s the thing. If I’m working on music, I have to work at home. If I can write, then I’m gonna go to a coffee shop or the library or my friends just opened up local economy, uh, that, that, so I’ve been going there and because writing is so lonely and miserable that I cannot be in the house, I, I, there’s no way I have to be in public. Um, and just at least feeling the energy of other life    [00:40:18] Miko Lee: With songwriting also?    [00:40:19] Thao Nguyen: With songwriting, I have to be home ’cause I’m making all this noise. So what? Yeah, with songwriting I’ll be at home, but that’s way less miserable ’cause I can just play guitar or piano or something and then, or I’ll be in studio with my friends that I’m making the album with. Um, now that I’ve finished the album and I’m moving and I’m more squarely in the book writing, um, I try to do two hours. You know, not, not solid. I will try, like, for a while, um, I was doing the timer with the, you know, 25 minutes at a time. And then that wasn’t, I wasn’t getting enough done and then, yeah, and then more than two hours. I, I just can’t, it’s not sustainable. Um, for me, I feel like I get a solid hour to two. Or maybe you hit like a two page, two or three page, um, quota or something, and then just don’t even look at it and then go, and then I go exercise and I need to be outside and, or go on a hike or something.    [00:41:34] Miko Lee: Okay. Tell us about this book. What is it about, what’s the timeline? No pressure.    [00:41:41] Thao Nguyen: I would love to tell you what it was about, if I knew better. Um, what it was. It’s, it’s a collection of essays and I’m calling it, so it’s, it’s, uh, it’ll be out on Gray Wolf, um, into, in spring of 27. And so it is due relatively soon ’cause they, it’s a longer lead time. I’m calling it a community memoir, um, because it’s a collection of essays from different, it’s all through my lens, but it’s to celebrate these characters that I grew up with in Foster Virginia, within my family, within the community that I, they’re so vivid to me and. Their stories. The quieter sides, the quieter moments of what it means to live in diaspora or what I wanna capture. And also what, you know, part of it is what shaped my musical life. And, and there are all these influences and elements that I, that I just wanted to celebrate and honor and. These people that I remember, but I, I’m, we’re all, you know, I’m, I’m turning 42. I’m like, I, we’re close to lo I’m close to losing the Hi-Fi detail of them, you know, and, and I don’t know who else, is in a position to capture it. You know, and, and also it’s this amazing opportunity to talk to my mom’s, brothers and sisters. You know, there are tales. There’s, of course, you grow up with, I think it’s really different to, I was raised, you know, in Virginia by my, primarily by my mom. My grandmother and my aunt didn’t come till I was five, but the stories that I heard. Mostly were from my mom who fled in, who left in 73, and her experience is so different than my grandmother, my aunt, all of my mom’s siblings who stayed, who had to stay through the fall and, and live in a different regime, you know?    And so to get to hear those stories of just like the more quotidian indignities of what is life after you’ve lost your. To them they’ve lost their country, but they’re still in it. You know, like, what is it to, with what were the rice rations like? Yeah. So, 50 years on what stays with people, you know, against the backdrop of the most devastating thing that can happen is that like the rice was so broken and it was so rationed and the quality of it was so infuriating and that they and my uncle talks about just for the 50th anniversary, I went back, I had an event, um, I think at the Smithsonian, and I went and I was staying with my uncle, and so I was able to ask them questions and he remembers buying meat on the black market. But you, you’d go to this market, you’d make eye contact with the person. They, you follow them to a behind the stall. They give you this meat wrapped in newspaper. You don’t even know what it is. You don’t, you can’t unwrap it till you get home, you know? Anyway, those are the things that I, I just am so fascinated by, and I, there’s just this kind of humanity and life in them that I wanna help. Um, record and if nothing else, just so that I know that it gives me an opportunity to ask these questions. Um, there’s stuff about, you know, I’m estranged from my father and I have a lot there, there are things that I, you know, it just, these essays are helping me, better understand and, and process. these open-ended. storylines that, that, have punctuated and haunted me.    [00:45:38] Miko Lee: And this is your first book, right?    [00:45:40] Thao Nguyen: It is, yes.    [00:45:42] Miko Lee: What made you decide to do a book format and also essays, I heard you say? Mm-hmm. Um, as opposed to another album or a series of songs.    [00:45:52] Thao Nguyen: Um, I’ve always wanted to be a writer. Bef I wanted to be a writer before I was a songwriter, before I wanted to do anything. And I think it scares me the most in my life. And, and it was time to, you know, the opportunity came up, um, very fortunately to get to write a book for Gray Wolf, which of which I’m a huge fan, you know, and, uh, it’s a true honor to be affiliated with them. And. Uh, I wanted to do it because it’s a lifelong goal and dream, that actually is way scarier to me than making music and performing music. So I, I kind of just needed to see that I, I needed to try.    [00:46:38] Miko Lee: And why an essay format?    [00:46:40] Thao Nguyen: Um, I think that’s what naturally. For this, for the first go, it, it, it is what naturally I’m drawn to and what happens most easily. Uh, and I think they’re similar to songs in that way. And I, I am very much as a writer, as a songwriter or any or prose writer, I want to try and just capture the, a moment and a feeling and I. Um, that’s my main prerogative and my main compulsion when I write. And so for this first go, I’m hoping that there will be more, but this, yeah. Is, is just the, the easiest way to package it.    [00:47:28] Miko Lee: I’m absolutely looking forward to reading it. Now share about a musical. Tell me more    [00:47:34] Thao Nguyen: Musical. I don’t know how much I can say besides, uh, it’s not been announced yet, but I do, I have been in, I do spend a lot of time in New York, um, and it’s an adaptation. Um, I. I shouldn’t have. I, I just wanted to mention that it was happening, but I know now that I sh I can’t actually say.    [00:47:56] Miko Lee: Okay. That’s okay. It’s secret, So how can our audiences find out more about you and your work? We’ll put a link to your website absolutely. On their webs, on our, program page. But are there other ways that folks can find out more and keep up to date with what you’re doing?   [00:48:11] Thao Nguyen: For sure there’s, um, well, all the social media, um, outlets were on there @thaogetstaydown. And um, I have a substack called THAO For The Record, which actually was just me sort of documenting my process of making this next record. Um, but that is my preferred way to be in touch in a more long form, um, less harried way. And the new album is coming out in mid to late September. And so I’m really excited about that. And we’re, we are gearing up for more touring, starting the summertime.    [00:48:54] Miko Lee: Excellent. Can’t wait to listen to you more and hear the new, piece. And thank you so much for joining us on Apex Express.    [00:49:02] Thao Nguyen: Thank you so much for having me. It was such a joy to speak with you.   [00:49:05] Ayame Keane-Lee: The last song we’re playing tonight is also the last on the album Temple. It’s called “I’ve Got Something.”   MUSIC [00:53:51] That was “I’ve Got Something” by Thao & The Get Down Stay Down. [00:53:55] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for listening tonight. Remember to reconnect to your ancestral technologies and hold in the power of tenderness. Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night.            The post APEX Express – 6.18.26 Talk Story with Thao Nguyen appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 6.11.26 – Pride, Power, and Queer AAPI Voices 11.06.2026 59мин

  APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community.   This Pride Month—queer and trans AAPI community strength. On this episode, host Miata Tan is joined by guests from three organizations building queer AAPI community on their own terms. They explore what it’s like to find joy, organize together, and show up for each other in this moment.   QTViệt Cafe Collective Learn more about QTViệt Cafe Collective and their new documentary Đồng Quê: Of the Same Womb Website | Instagram | Join the Collective Catch the film at an upcoming screening:  June 14 — World Premiere | 22nd Annual Queer Women of Color Film Festival | Presidio Theater, San Francisco  June 20 — Screening + Q&A with filmmaker Sage Tran | Hosted by the Q Corner | San Jose    Queer Hmong Intersectional Pride (QHIP) Learn more about QHIP and their upcoming workshops, events, and campaigns Instagram | Website | 5th Annual Elk Grove Pride   Lavender Phoenix (LavNix) Learn more about Lavender Phoenix and their Leadership Exchange program Website | Instagram | Leadership Exchange Program   Previous Episodes A Conversation with Lavender Phoenix: The Next Chapter — March 26, 2026 Trans & Queer Hmong Rise: Organizing in Central California — October 24, 2024 8 Years of QTViệt Cafe! — August 22, 2024   Transcript ​[00:00:00]  Miata Tan : Hello and welcome. You’re tuning in to APEX Express, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host, Miata Tan. We’re nearly halfway through June, and Pride Month is in full swing. Pride is a time to celebrate, honor, and dig into the deep political history of queer and trans communities. And tonight, [00:01:00] we’re zooming into a few distinct queer Asian American communities right here in Northern California. First, we’ll hear from a collective of queer and trans Vietnamese artists, activists, and organizers based in the Bay Area, who have a brand-new documentary out this weekend. Then we’ll dive into the political organizing of queer and trans Hmong communities in Fresno and Sacramento. And we’ll close out the show with a queer Asian American community leader and some different ways that you can get involved this summer. Okay, let’s get into it. First up, my conversation with QTViet Cafe Collective. And before you ask, no, QTViet Cafe is not a brick-and-mortar cafe that serves coffee. They are a Bay Area-based creative cultural hub for queer and trans Vietnamese liberation through gatherings, art showcases, cultural programming, and more. QTViet Cafe is a part of Asian Refugees United, [00:02:00] and tonight we’ll be discussing their new documentary, Dong Hoi: Of the Same Womb. It is premiering this Sunday, June 14, as part of the 22nd Annual International Queer Women of Color Film Festival in San Francisco. Dong Hoi asks viewers what it means to return to a homeland, to a community, to yourself. Here’s my conversation with the QTViet Cafe Collective. Miata Tan: Thank you all so much for joining me today on APEX Express. Sage, perhaps you can start us off. would you be able to introduce yourself and share a little bit about what the QTViet Cafe Collective is?  Sage Tran: My name is Sage. I use they/them pronouns. One of filmmakers/digital archivists for QTViet Cafe Collective. we are a cultural hub where we focus on, diasporic themes around intergenerational Vietnamese and identity and queerness. We do a lot our [00:03:00] events and workshops and gatherings around food, remembrance, and, our gay and they selves.  Miata Tan: Lovely. Jessie, who are you and what brought you to QTViet?  Jessie Nguyen: Sure, my name is Jessie, and my pronouns are they or Jessie, and I’ve been part of the collective since, 2018. I think I found the collective in a place in my life when I was really searching for ways to, bring an intersection to all parts of my identities, QTViet Cafe Just like Sage said, it’s a creative hub, it’s a cultural hub that is really dedicated to uplifting queer and trans Viet liberation through ancestral practices , different, forms of art and intergenerational connection. yeah, I just really appreciate the ways that QTViet Cafe has just been so dedicated to our, art and then also uplifting our art to really, bring forth community, organizing work, solidarity [00:04:00] work and our own, like, queer and trans Viet excellence  Miata Tan: Love that. Jean, could you share a little bit about yourself as well?  Jean Pham: Thanks for having us here. my name is Jean Pham. I use they/them pronouns. i’ve also been a part of QTViet Cafe since 2018 when I had first moved here to the Bay Area. Like Sage and Jessie had shared, QTViet Cafe is, it’s a really special space. I think as d- diasporic Vietnamese, speaking broadly, like culturally we experience being displaced on many different levels. Um, when people say that it’s a cultural hub, really tangible in a, in a lot of the activities and things that we do. we’ve hosted like art residencies. We cultural dinners. We have language groups. QTViet Cafe, it really exists to fill a need. and I think part of that need brought us, to the culmination of this specific project, to bring us back into Vietnam  Miata Tan: Yeah, lovely. And we can pick up from there your trip to Vietnam. this, was captured by Sage recently in a documentary. Sage, could you speak more about what, this new doco is about? where did this project come [00:05:00] from? Sage Tran: this project emerged from a collective hunger for wanting to return back to the motherland. for years of doing a lot of gathering here, specifically in the Bay Area, we’ve been able to stay rooted in the territories here. And, we all came to a consensus like , what would it be like to gather a bunch of us and connect with our siblings, brother, sisters, family, chosen fam out in the motherland? that became a seed that we cultivated, planted, tend to, and we fundraised with a lot of community support to get about 13 of us out uh, Vietnam. maybe Jessie can talk a little bit more about this, but Hai and Ma are the, folks who founded QTViet Cafe Collective [00:06:00] Jessie, Ma, and Hai. They all three went to Vietnam in 2022 and built a lot of beautiful connections of like local drag artists, queer trans collectives out there. That’s kind of what birthed Đồng Quê.  Miata Tan: so  I’ve been lucky enough to, watch the film already. Đồng Quê is the name of the documentary, but it’s also the name of the performance that came together Jesse, perhaps you can speak to this this journey more and I know QTViet C- Cafe’s been around since 2016,  this project goes back, a few years as well Jessie Nguyen: Yeah, sure. I can speak a little bit about that and just chiming into, like, what Sage already shared. there was a small group of collective members that that came up with the idea of, like, what would it be like for us as, queer and trans Viet diasporic folks to go to the homeland. the original intent was for that trip to happen in 2020. And it [00:07:00] actually, because of the pandemic, I think obviously things were, logistically it just didn’t work, but that, dream, like, surfaced again, so the question came up about, like, what would it be like for us to travel together to the homeland as a collective and also share our art, to , connect with other Viets in Saigon. You know, when we’re in the Bay, so much of our work is really centered around gathering communities around our food, our art, and our stories. And so it really made sense for us to think about what would that look like in Vietnam. And so in 2022, as Sage was mentioning, me, Hai, and Ma,, went to Saigon and just kind of explored, like, what is the creative scene like and were able to connect queer and trans Viet artists who are doing insanely inspiring creative work. we connected with folks from the Baxiu Collective, and they’re a group of, queer and trans Viet artists who are doing drag in different, performance spaces in queer bars in Saigon. And then I think in that moment we’re like, “Wait, we would love to [00:08:00] collaborate with you.” from that unfolded, a, a year-long , like, planning of, what would it look like for us to do a shared showcase together. And so we identified built relationships with a queer bar in Saigon. and then so leading up to the homeland trip, we planned this showcase where it would be a mix artists from our collective and artists from their collective, and then a whole, a whole performance that unfolded. And I think in the year of 2023, that year I think we ended up fundraising, about 50K in order to really subsidize and support the whole journey of getting us to Vietnam. Like, stipending artists and creatives that we were collaborating with. it was, one of the biggest projects I think that QTViet has ever been a part of and really undertaken, and I think it definitely is, like, a huge highlight for, like, my time with QTViet. Miata Tan: Lovely, and it’s so beautiful to see it all come together in the documentary. Jean, could you speak to your experience? I understand this was [00:09:00] your first time ever visiting Vietnam  Jean Pham: Yes, it was my first time visiting Vietnam. so I had a well of emotions in terms of the lead-up to it. Like Jesse was sharing, you know, originally the plan was we were gonna go in 2020. That had to shift, you know, shelter in place and everything. A lot of the work that we do is reconnection, right? as diasporic Vietnamese being displaced from our ancestral land, as queer and trans people, um, a big rallying point for many of us is feeling displaced from our own families. And so part of, like, returning back together is fighting against it. It’s like, what if we reconnect ? You know, what if we re- reunite? You know, w- if we’re traveling together as queer community, we can really see and understand what it’s like to be uh, Vietnam for ourselves. And so it was really, like h- it had this like gravity around it, and I think it made me really nervous but also excited. that being said, you know, a lot of other folks who are part of our cohort, even though they had gone to Vietnam before, a lot of them had also shared this is their [00:10:00] first time going without family, And we’re going specifically towards, queer and trans community in Vietnam, which is also a departure from their other experiences too. Jessie Nguyen: Can I just add something? Because I just really loved what Jean shared. I just think that, yeah, I think that you really spoke to something there about how we can spend our whole lives, like, having this understanding of homeland that is actually quite disconnected from our queerness and our transness. And similar to, like, many other folks in the collective, like, I have been to Vietnam, multiple times before, but never in the context of centering my queerness and transness because I just wasn’t sure, like, what felt safe. You know, without having, like, fluency in the language or even knowing, like, how to express my queerness in Vietnam. Oftentimes it just felt… I felt pretty invisibilized there, you know, because, like, being there with family, I just show up as, like, a, a family member, There’s so much that is a part of me that is expressed through my queerness and my transness that [00:11:00] is that isn’t as visible. And so I think that being in a space as a collective gave us permission to do and to feel deeply woven into our cultural experience was, like, in- in- incredibly liberating.  Miata Tan: Yeah. That’s really beautiful, Jessie. I also noticed in the film your aunt was also, part of it as well, so you were able to hold that familial side of yourself as well as the queer side. Could you speak more to that?  Jessie Nguyen: Yeah. I was just watching the documentary yesterday too, and I was like, oh my gosh, I– it was so sweet that my aunt had a moment in that documentary. the thing that I was really interested in was trying to weave my connection with my family to, like, my connection with, like, my chosen queer family, And I think that became very possible when, we did the homeland trip. I’m, I’m not fluent in Vietnamese, and I’m especially not fluent in trying to articulate what it means to be queer and [00:12:00] Vietnamese. And so the idea of inviting QTViets to my aunt’s home was, like, a way to be like, “Hey, this is who I and here are my– here’s my community.” And maybe if I can’t actually, like, articulate that, like, I I want my aunt to, like, feel that sense of, like, care and connection of my community. And then to me that felt like a way of inviting my Vietnamese family to this part of my life. I think that it’s, it’s oftentimes hard to even do that here in the Bay. You know? Like, the connection that I have to my blood family and then my connection to my chosen family here in the Bay, like, can feel quite separate. keeps me coming back to QTViet is that we always make space for that intergenerational connection that doesn’t invisibilize our queerness and our gender identity . Miata Tan: Sage, could you speak more to this theme of family? It seemed to be really core to the documentary tell us about how that felt as the director, like being behind the [00:13:00] camera but also part of the QTViet team on this trip?  Sage Tran: directing and being behind the camera had a lot of challenges. I think there’s something where I’m not sure if y- like folks can relate to this, but when you are filming something with your iPhone or on your camera, there’s a connection and a disconnection that happens at the same time. You’re not able to fully present, but you are. I was straddling the line of like is this shot looking beautiful and also crying I think there was a moment where we were in a taxi or Grab car, and it was Hai, Jesse, and Jesse’s aunt, she was dropping some heavy moments, and I just remember we’re all crying in the car while the Grab driver is like blasting music, and it’s like a super bumpy road. People are honking at us, and it was just like such a funny and rocky, symbolic, memory I just was like, “Wow, I can’t [00:14:00] believe I’m getting to document this” like historical moment, not only for Jesse, but just like for the collective and what does it mean for folks who are queer and trans that can’t have moments like this. It’s just like kind of a reminder to slow down and being like, ” Okay,” am I getting to embody this moment while holding the stabilization of the camera?” And I think still I find that to be a challenge, but a, a really fun dance of filmmaking, directing and being there. Miata Tan: Yeah, definitely. I can’t imagine trying to keep the camera still while you’re bawling your eyes out.  Sage Tran: Yes.  Miata Tan: Jean, we’ve talked a now about this connection of blood family and found family as well. could you speak a bit to the QTViet Cafe family that sort of came together on the trip, but also this wider, Vietnamese, queer community you were able to find over there in Saigon? Jean Pham: Every step of the way it felt really [00:15:00] good because when, like, you know, we were traveling together as this, this giant mass of just gay people. and so I always felt like, oh, I could kinda be off guard, I understand that, like, for a lot of Korean trans people, w- when traveling we’re on high alert, there’s just a lot of unpredictability. There is safety in numbers. There’s safety in communities. I felt like, you know, the QTViets have my back. There was a bigger group that came together in SFO, and we just t- all booked the same flights. And then there were some people who were coming, like, a little bit later. I had been with QTViets at that point for about six or seven years, and so there was a lot of trust already built. With the Saigonese Viets, it, it was like a, just a natural kinship. You know? It was like, it was also as if like we were just friends off the bat or there was just this shared understanding. We had a gathering, and I think this is featured in the documentary. after gathering, people were just kind of, getting to know each other in in their flat, and they were teaching us how to walk in heels, and it was so lovely. And I remember thinking like, “Oh gosh, what music do I play here? How do I set the mood?” But the, th- I think the reality is, [00:16:00] you know, Rihanna is like a common language, like among gay people. Everyone under like … It was, it was funny ’cause like, you know, I would, you know, I would play music that I would just listen to. Like, they’re just, pop girlies that would play in the States. And, yeah, gay people, like, they, they just love a diva no matter where you are. And so that that was really nice. But r- truly, like, the DIY drag scene in Saigon is huge, and it c- it’s, like, so varied. And, I do wanna shout out, like, all the queens and the Baxio Collective and all the trans artists who really helped, make our show and, like, really helped hone in our craft. And they were pr- they were strict, you know? They were like, “You have to come here early, and you have to come in, like, days before. And we’re gonna have to practice over and over again.” And they had, like, really specific notes on how to make the show better. And so it was interesting as a culture exchange they were learning, how we were operating in terms of how we organize and a- I think a lot of the spoken word, slam poetry style that, like, some of our members were bringing. And from them, we were [00:17:00] learning a lot of the theatrics on really how to, like, have a show and really think, holistically about all the different components. Miata Tan: Jessie, could you speak more to the show? Uh, what did it look like? How did it feel? Jessie Nguyen: So back in 2022 was when we discovered that there is actually one queer bar in Saigon, and it’s in District 4. this bar called Bar Zinga. And it’s, like, in this alleyway. It’s pretty divey. And so when we were there in 2022, we actually spent uh, New Year’s there, and we got to know the owner, and we got to know, like, what they envisioned for the space, which is they’ve been using it as a space for, drag, drag performances, music sets, and things like that. And we’re like, “Oh, wait. Maybe this could be a good spot for us to do something for QTViet.” And So essentially the vision for the show was for us to collaborate with, Babel and Yat, who are the co-founders of Bạc Xỉu Collective, they are incredible, like, production artists and drag artists.  we [00:18:00] invited folks from the collective, if they wanted to share some of their art as well. And so we had… Let’s see. I remember Irene, who is one of the poets and also, like, OG QTViets, shared, some poetry, and then we had also Hai sharing some erotica. Me, Hai, and Lan did a ao dai fashion runway show.  and then there was, Oh, Judy and Hiroshi who did, like, a whole, like, lô tô, so that was, like, based off of, like, like a Vietnamese game, and they did a whole performance on that. yeah. So it was kind of, like, cool to be in this space and inviting folks from the community to come in, and it was a full house. people were feeling so nervous, but the, also the energy of, like, I can’t believe this is happening. You know? that the art that we’ve created in the Bay, that we get to share it in Saigon. Miata Tan: So beautiful. yeah, it’s really nice to see this, cross-cultural, international, connection that you’ve built with, the folks in Vietnam. Sage, could you speak more to, the [00:19:00] documentary itself, what you hope viewers will take away from the film, and especially seeing depiction of, of queer joy in the performance? Sage Tran: I think what I hope viewers take is like the power of remembering and the power of remembering with community. Cause I think like also editing this film, I’m like, I remember exactly what y’all said word for word. It’s like ingrained in my head.  I think there was something that, Jean, you said in… You said something where like it doesn’t matter if you’re Vietnamese, it doesn’t matter where you were born. It matters and it doesn’t, but also like there’s so many cross-cultural connections and parallels that, tie us all together. And I think, on the theme of remembering and leaning into our joy and our creativity, there’s so much that can unlock with, just living our truths. I think, yeah, I think that’s what I hope viewers take away with  Miata Tan: Beautiful. and the documentary will be premiering, this [00:20:00] June, as part of QSMAP here in the city in San Francisco. We have A little bit of time here, so I’d love to talk about, uh, what else QTViet has on the horizon, campaigns, workshops, other performances. Jean, Jessie, would either one of you be able to speak to this?  Jessie Nguyen: The only thing that is really on my mind around QTViet is that we are celebrating our 10-year anniversary in September. And I don’t know what that’s gonna look like, but I think that it definitely is gonna be a invite and just a opportunity for us to reflect on everything that we’ve been able to cultivate as a collective, and also just to notice, like, how much we’ve evolved. I think that when so many of us joined in 2016 to 2018, we were, younger queers who were really looking for community and maybe felt pretty isolated. And I know that, like, where I am today, my connection to my Vietness and my queerness, like, feels so deeply ingrained. And a [00:21:00] huge part of that is because of having a container like QTViet. I was also gonna talk about Ordinary People, because it’s actually a show that we’re doing a audio visual storytelling performance that is led by one of the QTViet members, Jop, uh, Nguyen. And it’s gonna include, several other QTViet members that are gonna be, contributing as, like, a band. there have been music and songs and videos and animations and, yeah, lots of different elements to really bring to life, like, what it feels like for our parents to, experience their homeland, their escape, their journey here, and then also how we really, how we connect to that story. Miata Tan: Thank you for sharing, Jessie. Sadly, this interview is airing after the Ordinary People performance, but I’ll play a little snippet in a bit. Jean, final question. with this 10-year anniversary of QTViet Cafe, how do you see your recent [00:22:00] adventures informing your work? How you organize, how you gather Jean Pham: I think after the trip, there was, like, a re-invigoration of, purpose honestly, like, a new wave of renewed energy and also new people who were joining the space. we started practicing a lot more solidarity work. I think almo- almost immediately after returning, there were a few events that was in solidarity with, Palestine. And as we were returning from the trip, last year was also the 50th anniversary of the war in Vietnam ending, and so we used that as an opportunity to draw connections between how, the conditions of the Vietnam War was truly, like, politically activating for a lot of young people in the ’60s, similarly to um, the genocide uh, Palestine was politically activating for people now, uh, and how, like, have a shared struggle. with 10 years of QTViet Cafe, I think it’s more evident that QTViet is an, like, entity, a group that needs to exist. and we always invite people to join us. if anyone’s listening who is diaspora queer and trans Vietnamese, is looking [00:23:00] for community, you know, looking for language classes or, like, just, uh, ways to build, you know, we’re always more than happy to join people. You know, last year, Jessie and a a couple other friends organized this amazing trip to New York. there was really this big energy around uniting all the different scattered parts of QTViets all over and coming together and understanding that, you know, we, we all, um, um, have a lot in common. and so I, I do think that was really uplifted and highlighted in our trip, this feeling of, like, you know, we’re not- we’re actually not so alone, and there’s so many of us, and we’re, like, we’re all so powerful. Miata Tan: Beautiful. I think that’s a perfect place to end. Thank you all so much for joining me today Jessie Nguyen: Yay. Thank you so much  Sage Tran: Thank you so much. Thank you.  Jean Pham: I know, this is so lovely. Thank you. Miata Tan : That was Sage Tran, Jean Pham, and Jessie Nguyen with the QTViet Cafe Collective. Their new documentary, Dong Hue: Of the Same Womb, premieres this Sunday, June 14th at the Presidio Theatre in San Francisco. That’s part of the 22nd Annual International Queer Women of Color [00:24:00] Film Festival, this year featuring 47 films, 10 world premieres, all totally free and open to the public. so if you’re in the Bay, this is well worth your time. You can also catch QTViet Cafe’s new documentary in San Jose on Saturday, June 20th at a screening hosted by the Q Corner, followed by a Q&A with Sage Tran, the filmmaker that you just heard from. For links to these events and more about QTViet Cafe and how you can get involved in the collective, check out the show notes for this episode. That’s on our website at kpfa.org/program/APEXexpress Coming up next, queer and trans Hmong communities in California’s Central Valley. But first, here’s a taste of Ordinary People, a recent live performance by QTViet Cafe recorded in Oakland last month. ​ Miata Tan : [00:25:00] [00:26:00] [00:27:00] That was a live recording from Ordinary People by the QTViet Cafe Collective,  in Oakland last month. This is APEX Express, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. Tonight, in honor of Pride Month, we’re turning our attention to queer Asian American communities right here in Northern California: who they are, how they organize, and the future they are fighting for. Miata Tan: My next guests are Shai Chang and Christine Thao from Queer Hmong Intersectional Pride, also known as QHIP. QHIP grows out of Hmong Innovating Politics, a grassroots advocacy group based [00:28:00] in Fresno and Sacramento, and focuses on building community and political power for queer and trans Hmong communities in California’s Central Valley. Here’s my conversation with Shai and Christine. Miata Tan : You both so much for joining me today on APEX Express. Could you share a little bit about yourself? Who are you, and what is your work with Hmong Innovating Politics? Shai Chang: Hi, my name is Shai, pronouns are they and them. I’m trans, non-binary, also Hmong, located in Yokuts Valley, Fresno, California. the work that I do in Hmong Innovating Politics is that I am a community organizer. I’m the Fresno Trans and Queer Community Organizer, I work specifically in the program called Queer Hmong Intersectional Pride, or QHIP, Q-H-I-P. And we do a lot of really great work with our trans and queer, in particular, like, intersectional folks, people of color within our, our communities and our members and our base to organize to fight, fascism, racism, also, like, transphobia and forms [00:29:00] of hate, moving us towards social justice and liberation. Miata Tan : It’s really important work, and I’m excited to get into more of what, Queer Hmong Intersectional Pride looks like, Christine, could you share a little bit about yourself? who are you, and how long have you been with, HIP and QHIP?  Christine Thao : Thank you so much for inviting my name is Christine Thao. I use she/they pronouns, and I am currently here on Nisenan, occupied Nisenan land here in the South Sacramento area. my role is the Sacramento, Trans Queer Community Organizer. And so I came into HIP, back in 2020, so during the COVID pandemic, and, um, I came on board as the administrative assistant. um, in 2024, I transitioned into the community organizer role.  Miata Tan : Lovely. Yeah. Can’t wait to get into the work that you do and the campaigns. to ground us in the history of, Hmong communities in America, Shai, could you speak to, who [00:30:00] the Hmong Americans are? I know that Fresno and Sacramento is home to some of the largest populations of Hmong people in the States. Shai Chang: Yeah, definitely. so the Hmong communities are from Southeast Asia, very much like indigenous folks that live within the mountain ranges and the hills. and the reason why we came to America was because of the Secret War the war that happened in Southeast Asia. one of our community members General Vang Pao was involved within this war and then pulled in the rest of the Hmong community to be part of this it is to say that, like many of our young men during that time was pulled into the war, and they were 13, maybe even 14, 15, and younger who were, pulled into the war to fight for America, um, with the promise of that America was going to give them a place that they could call home it was in 1975 where the war ended and, that’s when the military went ahead and was able to, because of Ronald Reagan signed, um, a letter for immigration for, [00:31:00] these Hmong folks and refugees to come into the United States. Miata Tan : Yeah, perhaps you can take us back to then, 2018 when, QHIP sort of came to life. what was the need that you were seeing for, queer and trans Hmong people in, in specifically Fresno and, and Sacramento where you all are based?  Shai Chang: the way Hmong communities have always existed was very much to be lay low, you know, not be sticking your head out. And so to be very clear, it’s that we are still struggling, economically. we are still very much struggling racially. The ICE attacks definitely impacted our communities we are still very much immigrants and still very much not necessarily having a place of home. But internally is that the Hmong community still very much holds on to, like, the, the traditions. And so they’re very patriarchal, um, very strict gender roles, and because of these things have then developed into, gender-based violence [00:32:00] as, like, trans and queer folks, it’s that we definitely do experience another deeper layer of the oppressions, especially also in our community because there isn’t actually any language in Hmong to talk about what trans or queerness is, where there’s no exact word to describe, like, gay or lesbian and things like that. So there is definitely, like, an erasure that also has happened, and in the Hmong community is actually very conservative. Uh, But HIP was already a very progressive organization. And so it was in 2018 because of Hmong innovating politics coming to Fresno. it was at the Hmong New Years, I saw them. I was like, “Oh my gosh, I know who you are. I love you. Like, if there’s anything I can do, please let me know,” ‘ Mai Thao was able to pull me in. It was like, “Hey, I want you to do something with us.” and with- was then funded three thousand dollars through HIP, to be able to go ahead and organize for whatever it means for me to trans queer Hmong work. during that time, it grew from, like, me, three people to having, like, fifteen people, [00:33:00] meet, once a week for three hours, and then another three hours we would go out and hang out. and so it really became this place for a social space for particularly, and, and I will name it, it’s that majority of the folks in that space was gay cis Hmong men. And it wasn’t until a year later from that first time that we first met in 2018 to we had a really hard conversation about our future, about the political work that that we should be doing. and so I’ve been with HIP for four years, and we’ve officialized during that time QTPIP to be a program, within HIP, and yeah, it’s been really good. I don’t have to worry about funding and things and organizing around that front end, and HIP has been able to be s- very supportive in being able to see that, and we can really work on the ends of what does it mean for us to organize around liberation and being on the ground with our community  Miata Tan : Yeah, definitely. It’s interesting to hear about the progression from [00:34:00] perhaps a group that was maybe more apolitical moving into that political space.  Shai Chang: we’ve also been, struggling still even now to land on what it means for us to fight more intersectionally. that’s where, like, QHIP and Queer Hmong and intersectional pride comes from, right? Is this word intersectional, coined by Kimberlé Crenshaw, is that We do have these cross identities that exist within ourselves. And so would love to have Christine talk more about what actually this issue is within not just Hmong communities, Hmong and trans queer communities. Christine Thao : Thank you, Shy. so Queer Hmong Intersectional Pride, we officially launched the program back in 2024. our QHIP program, It is open to young people between ages, 18 to 25. uh, young trans queer folks. Some go to college. Some, currently looking to be employed. Young people who are impacted, [00:35:00] young people who want to get involved, right, who, who do care about, this work, and who care about social justice, it’s a eight-month program And our gatherings are, we call them our huddles, our QHIP huddles. And they’re, we do them about biweekly, I can speak a little bit for Sacramento.  we’ve been meeting up at a cafe. We also use our office space. And, this is just a really a moment in time for our members to, bring up and have critical conversations about things that are happening in their lives or things that they’re seeing in their community. Miata Tan : Perhaps you could speak more to the organizing piece. What does this look like? Um, what sort of work are y’all up to? Shai Chang: Some of the ways in which we have organized, in our community is through the framework of BBB. It’s our belong, believe, become, and it sounds really cheesy, but this is really how we mobilize our people, we know as trans and queer people, especially as a person of color, we don’t know and have enough spaces of [00:36:00] belonging. we actually have a, such a hard time believing in ourselves, and because of that, we have such a hard time in becoming. And this sounds like the story of literally just transitioning. when you Transition is that you really need to have a space of, believing in yourself. You need to have a space in which you can belong, where you are safe, and then through that you can actually become and this person that you have always wanted to be. This is how we mobilize and organize our members and our community because once they start practicing this ability to be able to believe in themselves, have the spaces for them to organize and organize with other people. and to figure out, like, , what is our campaign strategy? What is the ways in which we wanna win in our community, right? And Uh, in gender-affirming care in Fresno and the Central Valley was very, very hard. many of the times folks will have to go to, like, the bigger cities like LA SF to get their care that they needed. We need actual, like, [00:37:00] materialistic wins for our communities so that way they can get to where they need to be. when I’m talking about Materialistic things, it’s that, we need them to be housed. We need them to have the affordable, uh, care. We need them to have, the affirming care that they are needing, we know how hard it is for, in particular, trans and queer people to be able to afford literally anything. and it’s so much more harder for them to find a career or a job, in a place where they actually also can live and exist through their identities. we’ve seen the, impacts of, ICE and immigration on our own communities these were, like, the works that were coming out constantly for our communities to fight for, these kind of justice issues, through these ways, we’ve been able mobilize and move our people to what does it mean for us to actually start thinking about a campaign strategy for us to win some kind of materialistic need and, of course, we work with youths a lot, right? So where is our youth justice at? And this is literally our youth justice, right? We’re having our young people share their voices. We [00:38:00] have our young adults organizing in the community, um, doing protestings, and fighting against the system. in particular, more recently, this, board of supervisor in Fresno County banned and denied, LBGTQ books in the Fresno County libraries. and we’ve organized to get people to show up to write letters and to really be there, and hundreds of people shown up and yet they still continue to, not hear their own constituency and their own community They continuously vote against us. that’s why HIP is political, right? Is that we have our civic engagement side, is that, okay, well, it sounds like we need to vote them out, right? And that’s what is it mean, and that’s what it’s about now.  Miata Tan : Yeah, I hear you. It sounds like you’re really helping to build political power within Hmong communities in, in Fresno and Sacramento. I’m curious, what has wins look like, uh, for your groups there? how have, you perhaps helped to show those material, changes [00:39:00] for your young people? Shai Chang: Uh, to be honest, it’s not much, We’re still very new into formed more as a social group in 2018, and just finally became, you know what? Let’s be political as f***.  Let’s be authentic as f***, you know? y’all really wanna make trans and queer identities political, Then let’s be political. and we’ve just started mobilizing, moving around those kind of things and identities only just more recently, right? As Christine mentioned, in  But the wins that we can really claim a name is that we have a 100% retention rate for our members. yeah. Um, we have tripled the amount of members that we had since then. and we are so excited for us to be able to, like, move and mobilize with our people intentionally and not just like, “Oh, we just need to be here for critical mass,” it is a two-part, right? It’s that, one, we need critical mass. We And the other part of this is that we [00:40:00] people to come in intentionally to be a part of this movement work. I actually went to present about QHIP more recently, and they asked, “Oh my gosh, is there any, like, open meetings that you have flyers about? Like, when do y’all meet? And then, like, do you have a flyer for that? And I can share it with, my members.” And I was like, “Actually, we do meet, and it– we do meet biweekly on Fridays. The members themselves are holding the space for the meeting. and so I can ask them about that, but I also wanna let you know that it’s not necessarily an open invitation for folks to just come in whenever they want.” We want people to come in intentional, and we want people to engage intentionally. And this is how we want us to move away from this autopilot into being able actively making changes and fights for our communities that will win us materialistic wins. Obviously in this administration, in the Trump administration, um, it has not been easy. just two years ago, they actually closed, the only LGBTQ [00:41:00] homeless shelter in Fresno, and a lot of folks now have, like, a hard time understanding where to go and what and how to navigate it. the Fresno, like, LGBTQ center also closed their doors for, like, the first time in, like, a long And so there is a lot of different impacts as impacting our community, from, like, LGBTQ centers closing, LGBTQ-serving organizations slowing down, And the way that our members and our community and our base have been organizing is As a community resource with one another is that like, ” Hey, I have an extra bed. Y’all can come sleep and crash ” there.” you hungry?” Let’s go get food.” Right? Really checking with each other and also being able to ask our community for funding as So HIP, we were able to organize and did a fundraiser back in March 50K. That’s huge we also know there are impacts that also is beyond us, too. it was with this past, like, Hmong New Year [00:42:00] that we did, that we wanted to do a Hmong New Year action, an action to really fundraise for our families who were detained by ICE. And so we did a mutual aid fundraiser, asking our community members to donate money, and we were able to raise… we only did it for, like, three hours, and we were able to raise $700. So we’re like, ” What if we kept going?” Right? And that’s where our fundraiser for 50K came from. so there is, like, ways in which we are trying to organize and mobilize our communities. And, to be very honest is that HIP and, QVIP is not necessarily a direct service organization and not necessarily in that way. I think many of the times people see HIP as like, “Oh, you’re here to save us,” we’re not that, right? We’re really here to mobilize with our community, uh, we have our youth organization over in Edison High School, they were pushed into a small classroom, storage room, actually, for band and also, sports as well. And so it, it was being disruptive a lot. one of our [00:43:00] previous, like, young adult members recognized that, and they were like, ” Sh-uh, Shy and HIP, Please, can y’all do something about this issue?” And we’re like, “No.” But we’ll do it with you, right? and so we came in, we taught them about organizing, and literally those youths were able to organize themselves to have a classroom now, they remember that. They hold onto that, right? Regardless if we were here or not, they will still be able to know that and hold onto And so it’s very much like that as well with our members, is that we want them to be able to organize within among themselves without having the need of, of HIP and entities being able to, have the, have the solution for them Miata Tan : mm, that makes a lot of sense. Really being able to work with community and give them tools so then they can continue to build is something really powerful that, you do at both HIP and QHIP. I’m curious, with this very challenging political moment that we’re living through, not only for queer and trans folks, but immigrant communities as [00:44:00] well, how are you holding this, this pain alongside, trying to also celebrate and honor your communities, um, and especially your queer and trans community members? Shai or Christine,  Christine Thao : At HIP we have what is called third spaces, and third spaces are heart spaces. these are, spaces where our young people, they continue to, build their organizing. They get to organize with one another and with HIP, to hold space to build community, to build belongingness, To show up, be present, make connections. is also a space where our young people, they get to decompress as well,  in a world where it feels so chaotic, we do a lot of, the hard stuff with organizing, but then organizing can be so fun. and our young people, they get to see both sides, right, get to experience that. What I’m holding onto is being [00:45:00] engaged and getting involved, it is, Um, How can we connect our young people, to our community partners, right? To make those connections, to build deeper, this year it looks like us, being more intentional about our capacity and who we are, building out with, um… I’m on, I’m currently on the planning community for Elk Grove Pride, and so, uh, our young people are also a part of that, where they get to lead a role, and create, spaces of celebration, right? there’s A lot of different opportunities our young people are also involved in, and, it, it is that wanting our young people to, feel empowered to get involved in these spaces as well.  Miata Tan : Yeah. Lovely. Thank you so much, Christine. It sounds like you’re really able to create, a beautiful space and community for your young people. Shy, uh, to close out, I’d love to know what’s on the horizon for QHIP. It’s Pride Month. unfortunately this episode is airing after Fresno Pride, but, perhaps you could [00:46:00] speak a little bit to that and what else is on the horizon. Shai Chang: Sure thing. the first thing I need to say is Happy Pride Month. so Happy Pride Month, everyone. Fresno always hosts their Pride parade, always the first Saturday of, of the Pride month it is On Saturday, June 6. Pride parade over at Tower District in Fresno. it’s gonna be very fun. It’s super exciting. We will be marching in there all together, and the theme for this year is, Pride Without Border. we’re gonna be Extra powerful in calling out all of the different, struggles that our intersectional folks are all facing and being able to march together in liberation. what’s also coming up next is, I- I’m foreseeing it to happen probably next month or in August, is that we will have a third space event to really celebrate Pride. we spend all our energy to be part of the Pride parade preparing our members and supporting them, but we haven’t necessarily celebrated QHIP’s [00:47:00] own Pride, you know, we work very politically in election works, and so we always have a bunch of these like, door hangers, Vote yes on Prop 3,” things like that, right? And so we have so much of those paper, and so what we usually do during this, like, Pride event that we do in QHIP is that we- we use these as an opportunity for us to do trash drag. it’s an opportunity for us to get glammed out everyone gets to participate creating this, like, image through the trash drag. And so we’re excited to be able to do that, so please keep on the lookout. Miata Tan : Sorry, why is it called trash drag? I’d love to know.  Shai Chang: It’s because, like, we had s- you know, this much f- okay, we, we have a lot of flyers from the our elections, And especially this year. You know how in, in the mail you’ll get so much, like, ” Vote for this person, vote for this person.” all of this is all paper that is then thrown away without any second thought. and we will make them, and we’ll make, like, thousands of copies , right? But we never are able to pass it all out. what we do is that we will go ahead and reuse them one last time for [00:48:00] them to have an opportunity for them to shine, We’ll have them split up into teams, and then use all the different trash that they can gather and use, and glue them, tape them , staple them to make a dress, to make an outfit for this one person that they’re gonna designate to be the drag mother for their team. Miata Tan : I love that. That sounds like so much fun.  Shai Chang: Yeah. We’re gonna be doing it in Fresno and also in Sacramento, so we’ll figure out a ways for everyone to be involved.  Miata Tan : Oh, how wonderful. Christine, could you speak to what events are coming up in Sacramento for us?  Christine Thao : We are also having, um, Elk Grove Pride on June 20th. It’s from 5:00 to 9:00. it’s gonna be at the Elk Grove Laguna Town Hall. And so community is very welcome to attend. It is a free event. Think of it like, kind of like a resource gathering with, um, some really amazing performances we have, a lot of like, BIPOC TQ, artistes, and then also vendors [00:49:00] as well. So please show up and, would love to, to meet folks and connect with folks in these spaces.  Miata Tan : Beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing, Christine, and we’ll be sharing all the details of how you can get involved and learn more about QHIP and HIP at the end of this episode as well. Thank you both so much for joining me today.  Shai Chang: Thank you so much for having me. Miata Tan: That was my conversation with Shai Chang and Christine Thao at Queer Hmong Intersectional Pride, also known as QHIP Miata Tan : this is APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. To close out tonight’s show, I have one final guest. Cynthia Fong is the lead organizer at Lavender Phoenix, also known as LavNix, A Bay Area organization building power for queer and trans Asian and Pacific Islander communities. You may have heard of them. Their new executive director joined us on [00:50:00] air just a few months ago. Here’s a short conversation with Cynthia Fong on Queer Joy, community power, and what LavNix has coming up this summer Cynthia Fong: Thank you so much for having us. My name is Cynthia. I use they/them pronouns, and I’m here with Lavender Phoenix. Lavender Phoenix, we build trans, non-binary, queer API power through organizing in the Bay Area. We work with our members to demand true solutions to care and safety, and we’re excited to be here with you all. Miata Tan : I’m so excited to close out the episode with you. And as we’re in Pride Month, I hoped you might be able to share a little bit about queer joy and how Lavender Phoenix is celebrating that at the moment, honoring each other.  Cynthia Fong: Yeah, absolutely. Especially in times like this, times of escalated violence against our communities, we know that queer joy, queer resistance, and queer power are truly antidotes to the systems that are making us sick. For us, that means in our work, we fight for care not cops, [00:51:00] we fight for budgets that truly reflect the needs of our people, we fight for a free Palestine, and we fight to abolish ICE. If you agree with all of the things that I just said we also do a lot of leadership exchange programs, and that is where we really cultivate that belonging and community in our trans and queer API community. Miata Tan : Oh, I love that. Could you share a little bit more about the leadership exchange with our listeners?  Cynthia Fong: Yeah, absolutely. This is one of our time-honored traditions. It’s called the Queer Leadership Exchange, it’s also known as LEX. And this program will run for two weekends in July. we aim to provide training on fundamental organizing skills, trans and queer history in the Bay Area, and really to provide an opportunity for trans and queer Asian and Pacific Islanders to connect with, with each other in a space that’s made by and for us. We invite you to apply if you are trans or queer [00:52:00] and if you identify as Asian or Pacific Islander. Our deadline is July 1st. And in these two weekends, we usually gather with about 20 to 30 folks, and it’s really interactive. We have a mix of activities that we invite people to, to skill up on and, and really to become the leaders that our movements need. Miata Tan : Love that. Could you share a little bit about some leaders you’ve seen come out of these programs? Like, what does that look like? How are they, helping to, to organize community?  Cynthia Fong: the folks who graduate from our LEX program, it, it’s really a wide range of people, whether it’s trans and queer APIs at work in other nonprofit sectors. It’s also our folks who may be supporting our community in other ways, like as artists, as students, educators, as therapists. We see a lot of people take these skills and translate them into a variety of different sectors that we know trans and queer API people… we’re everywhere, more and more so now. And we would [00:53:00] love every single one of us to be grounded in our histories when we do that work. And not only our histories, but also in a firm sense of belonging with one another, to know that we’re not alone, to know that there are other trans and queer Asians and Pacific Islanders here in the Bay Area, all of whom share these values of wanting to build working class power. Miata Tan : that’s so nice, a more multi-generational, multi-sector,  ​ Cynthia Fong: And, you know, we take it as an opportunity, too, for us to build with other organizations and people who, who are like-minded. We don’t take it for granted. We know the Bay Area is a place where it’s very diverse, where We are actively fighting for what values we believe in and whose agenda we are willing to put in power. And so we really welcome a wide range of people. No matter where you are, the real important thing is you, you share our values. you believe in true solutions to care and safety that are not rooted in systems of policing or incarceration  Miata Tan : [00:54:00] That’s really powerful. to close this out , Could you share a little bit more about what’s on the horizon for Lavender Phoenix later in the year? You mentioned a few of the campaigns, Care Not Cops. perhaps if you wanna dive into some of those.  Cynthia Fong: Yeah, absolutely. Um, we are joining a really big coalition of people from Alameda to Sacramento to San Francisco, all of whom are paying a lot of attention to our budgets, when you say Care Not Cops, we see our budgets to really be that moral document that show us where our priorities are. For us, June is Pride Month, but it’s also budget season, Um, it gives us a really big opportunity to be as loud as we can about what we believe. and in San Francisco with $16 billion, it’s quite shameful that we have our community partners like the San Francisco Community Health Center, Lyric, our youth programs being defunded, all the while new jails are being opened, all the while the police are getting new toys, they’re [00:55:00] showing us that the money exists but it’s not for us. And so we join the voices that are demanding for a people’s budget, and we know that that’s gonna be an ongoing fight. We’ve been in it for a few years now, and we plan to continue. In terms of our organization, we’re actually super excited to say we have 100% of our membership really diving into what the next five years looks like for us. Folks may remember we came onto APAICS to announce a name change a few years ago. We were formerly known as API Equality Northern California. We came on APAICS a few years ago to share that we’ve changed to Lavender Phoenix, and we anticipate some new changes on the horizon being announced at the end of the year as well, hopefully with deeper clarity about what the next five years will look like for us. Miata Tan : Ooh. Interesting. It’s not a new name change, is it?  Cynthia Fong: No, no. We, we’re gonna stay… We’re keeping the t- we’re keeping our name. We love our name. We love the history in our name. But it’s really just the theory of [00:56:00] change, you know? I think our moment today is very unique, very different, very politically tumultuous, and we wanna be sharp. We wanna know what we’re organizing for, what we’re organizing against, and, and what it means for us to build power.  Our last theory of change process is what resulted in us focusing on leadership programs, leadership development. It is also where we decided that healing is really important for our people. It’s also where we decided that safety is really important for our people. And so I anticipate that it’s gonna be a deepening not, not a change, but a deepening of how we orient to this bigger picture of our movement for liberation and justice. Miata Tan : So beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing, Cynthia. Um, it was really lovely to speak with you.  Cynthia Fong: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much. I, hope to come Back soon. Miata Tan : That was Cynthia Fong with Lavender Phoenix. If you want to learn more about LavNix, we sat down with their team earlier in the year. Find that episode and their leadership exchange program in the show notes. Tonight, we also heard [00:57:00] from the QTViet Cafe Collective and Queer Hmong Intersectional Pride. Links to all of these organizations and their upcoming work are at kpfa.org/program/APEXexpress. This is APEX Express KPFA, airing every Thursday evening at 7:00 PM. Thank you for tuning in tonight APEX Express is a proud member of the Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality, a network focused on long-term movement building, capacity infrastructure, and leadership support for Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders committed to social justice. Learn more at aacre.org. This program produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me, Miata Tan. Get some rest y’all.   The post APEX Express – 6.11.26 – Pride, Power, and Queer AAPI Voices appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 6.4.26 – Food Justice 04.06.2026 59мин

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight’s APEX Express show is focused on food justice and Asian America. First, Host Miko Lee talks with artist Macy Tran about their work on food as a form of resistance, and then she speaks with researcher Dr. Milkie Vu around her work on food insecurity and Asian American communities.   Show TRANSCRIPT [00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.   [00:00:30] Miko Lee: Welcome to Apex Express. I’m your host, Miko Lee, and tonight we’re talking about food justice and Asian America. First, we talk with artist Macy Tran about their work on food as a form of resistance, and then we speak with researcher Dr. Milkie Vu around her work on food insecurity and Asian American communities. Join us tonight as we delve into food justice. Welcome to Apex Express, Macy Tran, I’m so happy to meet you.    [00:01:03] Macy Tran: I’m happy to meet you as well, Miko. Thanks for having me.   [00:01:06] Miko Lee: I just wanna start with the question I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?    [00:01:13] Macy Tran: I come from a legacy of powerful Vietnamese people who were born and raised in Vietnam and now are part of the diaspora in Minnesota. I come from food peoples and healers and chefs and creatives of all sorts who have learned how to make ends meet and to adapt and to work with what they have. I come from a long line of people who have loved through food and who have used food as a means of cultural preservation and education and survival, which has now been passed on to me. There’s so much to say about who I come from. My grandparents have stories of survival and resilience throughout the American War in Vietnam. And it’s only because of just their love and the decisions they’ve made on behalf of their love that I am here today. My parents own a restaurant in Minneapolis, Minnesota, Vietnamese restaurant called Pho 79/Caravelle That has a 40 plus year legacy of serving Chinese and Vietnamese food to the Minneapolis community. It started with my grandma’s brother, and then it passed down to my grandma. And now my grandma has since passed and has passed it down to my father and my mother. And so I like to say that it’s restaurant people who raised me. I grew up sleeping in the booths and all of the aunties, even though they weren’t blood aunties were my aunties. Because our survival was just so foundationally just predicated on food and what we served and shared with others, and also what we ate at home and the celebrations that we would have both at the restaurant and at home. This is really what makes me.    [00:03:20] Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing. Do you wanna talk more about the legacy part?   [00:03:24] Macy Tran: I carry a legacy of peoples who really know the importance of food and the way we use food to care and support each other. Even in the most hard of times when my family was. On a boat with 200 other people and didn’t know if they were going to survive when they kind of landed abroad. The shores of Indonesia, food has been with them throughout it all, and it is how I was raised to love and care for people. I see the ways that food is not just a means for sustenance, but also as joy, as creativity, as love, and I carry all of those, decisions and skills with me.    [00:04:19] Miko Lee: Thank you so much. I learned first about your book when I read a piece that you wrote for 18 million Rising, and I’m wondering if you could just talk about how that piece around food as a form of resistance, how did that come about?   [00:04:33] Macy Tran: I have a friend who works with 18 million Rising, and since the federal occupation in Minneapolis, I’ve been doing a lot of food justice organizing here. And it has been a way in which I have seen and expressed just the skills and love that I give to my community. I was just feeling compelled to give food. That was what I knew. In the past two months as my friends have been going out on the streets following ICE agents around legally observing, I have felt that my role in this movement is to feed frontline folks who are out doing the work and also feeding our community during a time in which it’s very scary and difficult to leave your home without fear of being abducted. In Minneapolis we have created systems of, food resource sharing that have been really powerful to witness and experience and to get engaged with. And so one way that I’ve been doing it is I’ve been cooking community meals most Sundays, sometimes Saturdays that feed 200 plus people.   [00:05:47] I am providing delicious food for my friends who are out on the streets and coming home and hungry and cold. And I also helped facilitate and organize a food distribution at my parents’ restaurant after the murder of Alex Preti I really wanted to not just be involved in like acting and responding to what was happening but as an artist, as a creative, I felt the need for also remembering and preserving and reflecting about what’s been going on in Minneapolis. I kept being pulled in all these different directions and was organizing over here and supporting this community and doing this. And then when my friend reached out to me at 18 million Rising,. It was such a great opportunity for me to really reflect on my practice of food as resistance and food as justice. I’ve been a food writer in the Twin Cities for about the past three years. Food, events, I mostly cover restaurant stories and festivals and theater and all that sort of stuff in the BIPOC community here in the Twin Cities. And I realized writing this piece that this was the first time in a while, that I had written something actually for myself from my heart that was in my voice. Without an editor saying, no, you have to say it this way. No, we have to cut that part out. No, you use too many words here, and so I really took this piece as an opportunity to share what my life was like here in my own words and my own experiences. And just use it as a moment to really reflect and share the things that I’m learning and the way that I am practicing and using food as a bridge to healing and transformation during this time in which we are ripe for needing that.   [00:07:47] Miko Lee: Can you roll back a little bit and talk to me about how you got started as an organizer? What, when you first learned about social justice work and what pulled you in?   [00:07:56] Macy Tran: It definitely wasn’t the way that I was raised. I was born in the us my parents were born in Vietnam and then came over to the US and they really raised me with the mentality of you just put your head down and you work hard and you don’t really get involved. And like, yeah, you care for others, but mostly you care for your family. I was actually someone who was always butting heads with my family because I was like, do you not see all of these issues that are happening in the world? Like the issue, the systems that were implicated in. We have to care beyond just ourselves, and we would always butt heads about that.   [00:08:33] Miko Lee: At what age did that start?    [00:08:35] Macy Tran: Oh, probably when I was a teenager. around that time I was finding my voice. and it wasn’t until college that I really started putting words and frameworks and theory into what I have already witnessed in my family and my community, which is just community care and the ways that facilitates justice and transformation I would say since college that I really started actively organizing primarily on campus. I went to a smaller liberal arts school. So organizing and just getting involved in our community in that way was pretty easy. And like after I graduated college, I spent five years in Southeast Asia, one year in Vietnam, and then four years in Thailand where I was primarily working at the intersections of education and refugee justice and environmental justice. I got to meet all sorts of organizers and activists from across the region who have taught me. Really everything, a lot of what I know about organizing and what it means to show up specifically within a Southeast Asian context and how to use kind of my feet in both worlds, both my American political identity and my Southeast Asian political identity.   [00:09:59] And to merge those for the better and for my community. So I would say that. I’ve always had a big heart ever since I was little. And actually my parents were always like, you are too trusting. You people are gonna take advantage of you in the world. And I was like, I just wanna live in this world with so much love. And the way that they taught me to do that was. Through food and through reliability and just what it means to show up consistently for my people. And so in some ways it was all baked into me, even though they might not see that and they might not have raised me in that way. I see the ways in which they have sacrificed for love and nourished their families through food and made incredibly scary risks for the freedom of their family and for their people, and for a new life. And I just feel like I’m walking in their footsteps, doing the same even if they might not feel that way.    [00:11:09] Miko Lee: So did you have to talk your family and the restaurant into getting involved in the food support work for activists in Minnesota?   [00:11:18] Macy Tran: it wasn’t a challenging conversation to have and I was surprised by that.    [00:11:22] Miko Lee: Oh, great.    [00:11:23] Macy Tran: Um, yeah, my parents have been, actually, this is the most politically active and vocal I have seen them. It’s really incredible. I would say that for a lot of actually the Vietnamese community that I’ve been witnessing in Minneapolis, like they’re saying things that I never thought that they would say. They’re putting analysis like what together? The Vietnamese community is, I would say, skews at least the older generation, I should say. The older generation of Viet folks skews pretty right wing, conservative Republican, Trump supporting. And I’m just seeing dissent for the first time. It’s not always like that explicit, but it is, I would say in the past what I’ve seen is just like. When kind of rightwing or more Republican opinions come up, if people disagree with that, it’s just like you’re just quiet. But now I’m seeing a way in which like people are responding, commenting on social media, like posting publicly about it. It’s just been really, really powerful. When I first started organizing in response to the federal occupation, my parents were really quite worried and they did not want me to get involved. And they didn’t really understand why I felt compelled to do this. And then when Alex Prety was murdered, I. It was actually my auntie, my mom’s youngest sister that brought up the idea of a food distribution because she was feeling like I just wanna do something and like, what is an avenue in which we can do something? Well, we have this restaurant. Mm-hmm. And so she proposed it to my parents first, which Oh    [00:13:05] Miko Lee: wow.   [00:13:06] Macy Tran: Love, shout out to her because    [00:13:09] Miko Lee: Thank you, auntie.    [00:13:10] Macy Tran: She did right. She did the hard work for me. I think I would’ve been a little more hesitant or would’ve taken a little bit more time to just process, like how to go about asking them, because there’s just a different power dynamic there. Sure. But because my auntie is more of a peer mm-hmm. And she had this idea and she has also worked at the restaurant mm-hmm. For many, many years of her life. I think it really spoke to my parents and I think it really was a moment for them to connect the ways that this restaurant is so important to not only our family and how we show up in community, but also to our community in Minneapolis. Mm-hmm. I have traveled all across the world and have met people who have eaten at Pho 79 and have told me stories of getting engaged there, of getting a tattoo of the, like restaurant on their, on their arm. The, the logo. Yeah, the logo. It’s crazy, you know, like people, and I’ve also heard generations of families like growing up on my parents’ food. Mm-hmm. As we share food with people and they support our business, it’s only because of our community that we’ve been able to survive this far you know?. My parents came to Minnesota with nothing, and it’s only because of the kindness of other Minnesotans and other Vietnamese Minnesotans that we were able to get anywhere.   [00:14:35] In this moment they saw that and they saw that. We can, we have these resources. This won’t be hard for us. We have everything here that we need. This is the channel in which we can work in. And yeah, they were just ready to do it. I think also my parents were ready to take a risk because the business was not doing well, we weren’t, there were not people coming out to eat. Everyone was scared to go out to eat. People were not really spending money. And this was really ever since the pandemic and the way that has impacted the restaurant industry and particularly immigrant businesses, and then also the George Floyd uprisings and the way that just the, violence and also the transformation that happened to the street that we were on Eat Street. It just really changed the ways people saw that corridor, that business corridor. And it was a really big business impact. And so my dad was just, I think, in a place where he was really willing to take a risk and a stand for what he believed in. And my mom as well. As a way to also just like. Really be present in community and show that, hey, like we are out here and we believe in loving our community and seeing the ways that people are showing up for our community as and for our business as well. And honestly, since the food distribution business has been steady and I think. My parents are, I mean, they’re definitely feeling relieved, but I’m just feeling so grateful that they stood on their values, you know, and they stood grounded in that. And as a result, like the community is reciprocating. and that is such a beautiful thing that I don’t, I think my dad took a risk not knowing what would happen, because more exposure is not always good. And I’ve been telling him that, you know, especially with the Vietnamese community being, of, of his genera generation being more right wing and more conservative. He recognizes that and he recognizes that we had to do something. So I feel so proud of them for just being really chill and okay, and actually impassioned and compelled to do something.   [00:16:57] Miko Lee: It sounds like it brought you a little bit closer with your family too.    [00:17:00] Macy Tran: Definitely. Definitely did. Yeah. I feel like me and my family have never really been able to sit at a table and talk about politics and what’s going on in the world without one of us just like getting activated or feeling defensive or not seeing each other. It is a terrible thing what has happened and what continues to happen in our city, under federal occupation and so much beauty and creativity and love has come from it. And I even feel that at the most micro scale between me and my parents.    [00:17:39] Miko Lee: Can you, share with us that are not located in Minnesota, what the experience is like of this federal occupation on a day to day? Like, we’re talking today on March 2nd, and I say that because our world, everything’s changing every day and this is gonna air on a separate day. So I wanna name that. So right now, what is it like when you’re just walking through the streets in downtown Minneapolis ?   [00:18:01] Macy Tran: Yeah. It’s interesting because when you ask me this, I think about my experience like a month ago and how different it was and it felt to walk around a month ago compared to now. A month ago. It. I was seeing a neighbor on every corner of major streets, like looking for ice. You know, I was seeing car caravans, honking and following ICE agents. It’s interesting ’cause like I actually just had a friend visit from Milwaukee and. She was nervous about ice. She’s Asian American as well, and she was like, should I be scared? What’s actually going on? And I told her, actually, yes, what’s going on is scary and violent. And I feel so safe because I am meeting neighbors I have never met before. I’m making small talk with people who are just. Out on the streets walking their dog in a way that they would not normally, I’m talking to business owners, we’re talking about the impacts of this occupation. Everywhere I go, there were eyes and that felt really powerful and strong. And now that operation Metro Surge is technically over they are supposed to be withdrawing ICE agents from the city. I would say there is definitely a decrease in the number of ICE agents in our city. Activity is much slower. However I would say out in the suburbs of Minneapolis and St. Paul, they are seeing action and enforcement from ICE agents. That is. Either at the, kind of the same amount that we were receiving or escalated. The concentration is higher out in the suburbs And so even though things were quieter in the city, they were elsewhere. And    [00:19:57] Miko Lee: yeah, I just saw videos this morning of protesters that were peacefully marching that just got tackled. Actually by Minnesota Sheriff’s department working in conjunction with ice. I know every state in every region is a little bit different. But I thought that was something that Governor Waltz was working on right?    [00:20:15] Macy Tran: So actually the city ordinance that you are talking about is actually on a Minneapolis City level. So that was a decision made by Mayor Fray. Oh, that’s only city. So it’s only MPD, Minneapolis Police Department, who is not supposed to assist in, federal and right. Federal enforcement. However, on a county level, that’s different. I see. So sheriffs might be working with, I know it’s like, so complic, what a mess complicated. I    [00:20:41] Miko Lee: know. This is the same, I mean, this is the same everywhere, right? Mm-hmm. It’s all broken down. Okay. So, so I think I hear you saying that ICE has kind of moved on with the targeted big city approach and they’re going out into the suburbs instead. Is that right?    [00:20:57] Macy Tran: Yes. There are still protestors, and observers going every day to the Whipple building. The Whipple building is where ICE agents are coming from, and so they have definitely recorded a decrease in the number of ICE vehicles. So the volume isn’t as high, but the cars are still coming and we’re still seeing enforcement and violence in our neighborhoods. Just the other day, just a few streets down, a person was abducted in our neighborhood in Minneapolis. And because the volume isn’t as high, they’re not as easily able to track. And so they’re working a lot more under the radar. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And their tactics have become just a lot more. Under the radar as well. In the early days in January, it was really easy to identify ICE out-of-state license plate, tinted windows. Big vehicles like super easy. Nowadays they’re putting like coexist bumper stickers and little things on their dashboards and like, you know, driving little sedans and it’s definitely not as easy and they’re moving a lot more covertly. And because Operation Metro Surge has technically decreased and because many of our frontline activists have been working at this for months and are getting tired. Mm-hmm. There is a really interesting transition period happening here. Mm-hmm. Where I think we’re all trying to align on what is the next.   [00:22:31] What’s the next step? Mm-hmm. How? How are we, what is the best way to move given that this is the way that ICE is operating now? Yeah,    [00:22:40] Miko Lee: right. Just    [00:22:41] Macy Tran: under reflection. Mm-hmm.    [00:22:42] Miko Lee: Under such sneaky circumstances, like what they recently did in New York at Columbia, showing up at Columbia University with a missing child picture of a little kid. And that’s how they got entry into the dorms, which is so wrong to terrible get a student. So that’s actually illegal to like misrepresent being a police officer when they’re not, they’re a nice officer and    [00:23:05] Macy Tran: mm-hmm.    [00:23:06] Miko Lee: Showing a photo, I mean, it’s so awful.    [00:23:08] Macy Tran: Mm-hmm.    [00:23:09] Miko Lee: I’m wondering how people that don’t live in Minnesota can get involved.   [00:23:14] Macy Tran: Hmm. The, greatest frontier currently that is in need of support is rent support. There are, probably hundreds of maybe thousands of people who are likely at risk of eviction in the Twin Cities, because they have not been able to work for the past two months without fear of being abducted. We’re calling on Governor Waltz for an eviction moratorium, which would prevent folks from being evicted. Governor Waltz is the only person who really has jurisdiction to implement an immediate rental moratorium, and he’s done that before during the pandemic, and so we’re trying to make arguments that this is. A state of emergency people are like not able, they weren’t able to work. Like people are going to get evicted putting calls to his office, sending emails. So that’s one way to get involved from abroad, uh, or not abroad outside of Minnesota, but also abroad if you’re abroad And listening to this. The other way was, is that there’s a lot of hyper-local organizing that is happening within Minneapolis that I can speak to every. Neighborhood and corner, I feel like, of Minneapolis is being accounted for usually by a team of just volunteer mutual aid groups who are fundraising for rent, who are fundraising for groceries who are fundraising for utilities.   [00:24:45] And these are all like live fundraising pages on the internet. And if you have even just 10, $20 to spare to help a Minneapolis resident, um, not get evicted in the next month. Um, every dollar matters. In this moment, rent is due. Soon, we’re just at the beginning of March. And if folks aren’t able to pay rent now and they haven’t been able to pay rent in the last couple of months, like this is only going to have a snowball effect. We cannot risk vulnerable neighbors migrants, immigrants being, like more of them being unhoused at this moment. We already in our city have so many unhoused people who are not being cared for by our city officials, who are having their encampments being taken down and who are already not receiving adequate support. Our system cannot handle an influx of more unhoused people and we can prevent this. I would say that is kind of the biggest frontier at the moment in terms of what I’m seeing organizing on the ground.    [00:26:01] Miko Lee: Would you have links that you could share with us definitely for rent support. That would be really great if, and I’ll definitely, I’ll add them to the Apex Express show notes so folks that wanna get involved can contribute and help support community. You wrote in your piece about books, lovely books and podcasts and things that inspired you, which I always love hearing about those things. And one of the books you wrote about was Rice and Baguette, A History of Food in Vietnam. Can you talk a little bit about it, how it deepened your understanding of food legacies and resistance?    [00:26:33] Macy Tran: Mm So I read that book while I was living in Vietnam actually. So it was really cool for me to, what I love about that book, it’s a little like academic. I will say that it is a food history like you are reading history, you know, it’s a little bit like dense at some points, um, for    [00:26:49] Miko Lee: the real foodie audience.    [00:26:51] Macy Tran: For real. I’m like, if, yeah, exactly. And luckily that’s me. I was into it. What I loved about it were, the legends, like there were some what I, so in Vietnam when I was living there, something that I loved and was learning more was that like Vietnamese people have so many legends about folk legends about food, like the origins of the watermelon,, the origins of our bunte cake, which is the cake that we eat, the sticky rice cake we eat during, lunar New Year. There are so many Food origin stories that I just did not grow up being raised on. And so, this book talked about some of like, how did pho even get started, you know, is pho even truly Vietnamese? It’s, that’s a debate I’m not gonna have right now. But. I loved just hearing the greater context in which all of this existed, especially not growing up with those stories and being,    [00:27:55] Miko Lee: Hey, wait, what is the origin of watermelon?    [00:27:58] Macy Tran: So it’s this like funny little. Story where, this prince essentially gets banished to an island with his wife. And then on this random island, he finds this like incredible fruit, the watermelon, and he’s like, whoa, this is so delicious. I want I must show this to the people back at home, but they won’t have me because I’m banished. And then he basically floats the watermelon back to the mainland and they find it and they’re like, oh my gosh, this is so incredible. We must, invite this man back to the mainland.    [00:28:38] Miko Lee: How did they know it was from him? Did he like carve his name in the watermelon?    [00:28:43] Macy Tran: I don’t know. It’s actually been a while since I’ve heard this story, so I could be just like. You know, I don’t know all the details. That’s    [00:28:50] Miko Lee: okay. That’s always better anyway.   [00:28:53] Macy Tran: just stories like that. I love to hear them. I also learned about what it was like to eat and cook during foreign occupation when, oh, you know, the French were colonizers mm-hmm. When the Chinese were colonizers. Mm-hmm. And just the incredible Vietnamese food ways that emerged from those periods of colonization. Mm-hmm. They were both brutal and violent and also full of adaptation and creativity and survival foods. And so the book just talked about all of that, and I just love knowing those stories that help me know the ways in which our people have been able to survive for this long and are now free under, foreign  occupation.    [00:29:40] Miko Lee: Speaking of, you mentioned creativity and adaptability, and you are a multihyphenate person, as an artist, as an organizer, as a writer, as a visual artist, collage maker, I’m wondering how your artistry impacts your organizing and vice versa. How do they speak to each other? How do they influence each other?    [00:30:01] Macy Tran: Hmm. I am someone who, when there is an issue or a problem that arises, I’m often just confronting it with what can I do? What can I like feasibly do? How can I show up? And I think my artistic practices actually help me slow down. Even the ways that I can show up in community and do things in community, I’m very responsive. I’m always like, okay let’s do a thing. Let’s organize it. Let’s get our hands dirty. I am out there, I am organizing people, you know, like tangibly. And I think the ways that my artistic practices partner with that is that my artistic practices help me reflect and remember and deepen and find spiritual grounding and purpose. my art is a way that I bridge conversations with my ancestors and I bridge what it means to know myself and be a person, a community member, a Vietnamese American daughter in this moment, right? And it reminds me of the skills that I have and wanna bring to the world. It also helps me create different narratives for understanding what’s happening and. For finding creative solutions and for collaborating with others. So I think I would honestly be so burnt out and exhausted and sad if it were not for my artistic practices. I think it’s because of my artistic practices that I find energy, that I find belonging, that I find meaning in the work that I’m doing.    [00:31:51] Miko Lee: I love that answer. Can you share, because you brought this up, can you share about a conversation or an interaction you’ve had with an ancestor and how that’s influenced you recently?   [00:32:03] Macy Tran: Hmm. That’s such a great question. I’m going to tie this answer into Lunar New Year because, lunar New Year is a time in which our material world and the spiritual world really can converge in a meaningful way, at least for me. And every year when I celebrate Lunar New Year, I will do something different. I deepen my practices. I just kind of deepen what I know about. Folk tradition and ancestor worship. And every year I learned new things and I wanna try new things. And so this year was the first year that I built a public altar space in my living room. Usually I just have it in my bedroom or in a small corner of my home somewhere that’s like usually private. But I built like. It wasn’t like a tiny little altar, like it was big, you know, like I had photos of all my relatives on there. I had flowers, I had five kinds of fruits. I had, you know, little, every time I ate a meal, I was putting a meal aside for my family to eat with me. And, Some cultures you don’t eat the food that you leave on the altar, but in my family we do. And the reason for that is because we get to become one with our ancestors. We get to embody what our ancestors are and eat as well and their spirits, and so this past Lunar New Year, I actually threw a, I had celebrations on both sides of the family. And then I organized a new year party for my chosen family who came from all walks of life. And the prompt for the party, it was a potluck. The prompt for the potluck was cook something or bring something that your ancestors would be just delighted to eat on the altar. And so we    [00:34:00] Miko Lee: love that.    [00:34:01] Macy Tran: Oh yeah. It was so sweet. People came out with their best work, I should say, like the food was fantastic. Our ancestors were eating well, and I was sitting there. And this altar was full of tiny little plates of food, beautiful flowers. I also asked people to bring pictures, photos of their ancestors or people that they wanna honor. Incense were lit. The room was filled with incense smoke, and I was just, there was a moment where I was just, kinda in the corner of the room just watching, you know, and I had a feeling like, wow, all of our ancestors are hanging out right now. Not only are me and my chosen family, you know, building a community and belonging for ourselves but also like. I could have never, and probably they could have never predicted that my friend’s like Jewish grandpa was hanging out with my Vietnamese grandmother and grandfather, you know, or yeah, my friends like grandparents from Antigua are now hanging out with like my family members and it’s, it was just a moment where I just felt not just the joy.   [00:35:16] And love in the space of connecting with my real, like my friends in that moment. But also just the miraculousness of what it meant to hold all of our ancestors in that space. And so, after that I ended up writing a piece on my substack, actually as a letter to my ancestors. I, I kept the altar up for a week, a week and a half. And on the last day I was ready to take it down and move it back upstairs into my room. But on the last day, I thought, I’m gonna light the incense one more time. And have my ancestors in the space as I write this piece to them. There were so many things I wanted to say to them. And also at the same time, I felt like as I was writing, they were saying things to me, this is what I have to teach you in this moment, is kind of what they were saying to me. This is like, this is what it’s like to celebrate that under occupation. This is what it was like when we thought it wasn’t even possible to celebrate Tet. Like we had literally nothing but rice and water and yet we still did, and my grandma recently passed a I mean, it’s not so recent anymore, but it’s been just over a year now. And she was like, One of the first like major deaths of the elder generation in my family. And Tet was the time that I could commune with her and share love with her. And, I could just feel her presence in the space and I would even, memories felt like a way that she was talking to me. The memory of just the crackle of her sesame balls, like she made the best sesame balls. They were like. Thin and crispy and fluffy, but also like so like they were not skimping on the mung bean on the inside. It was fantastic. So I’m just like, I haven’t had a sesame ball from her in over a year, but I can remember how it tastes and feels, and my mouth and that memory itself is a message from her. To remember what has fed me through so many years, and how important it is to just remember the, not only just the foods that we eat, but the people that have loved that food into existence. And now me, you know,    [00:37:38] Miko Lee: have you made it the dish, the sesame balls.    [00:37:43] Macy Tran: I actually have her recipe books, so I planned to I just didn’t have time, this past Tet, but me and my brother were going to, and then I think we decided we wanted to do it on just like on a lower key day, like instead of like in the midst of just like so much family celebration, there was so much to prepare and we were like, let’s just plan a low key weekend where it’s just me and you and there’s no timeline and we don’t have to get this anywhere and they don’t have to be perfect. Like    [00:38:14] Miko Lee: that sounds lovely. So it’s personal and it’s family and Exactly. And if for a one year anniversary, death anniversary is coming up, that might be a great time to honor her.    [00:38:22] Macy Tran: Exactly. Exactly.    [00:38:24] Miko Lee: I’m wondering what was like some standout dishes from that lovely event to you?    [00:38:29] Macy Tran: Ooh. I mean, I will talk about the dish I made.   [00:38:33] Miko Lee: Okay.    [00:38:36] Macy Tran: Which I thought was fantastic and I think my friends also thought were delicious. Was delicious. Um, but a dish that is commonly eaten during the lunar new year for Vietnamese people is a tit ka, which is a caramelized, braised pork belly. This caramelized, braised pork was stewing for probably three hours. Wow. And so, yeah, and I used coconut water with it. I didn’t like, straight up coconut water and it    [00:39:04] Miko Lee: no Coca-Cola.    [00:39:06] Macy Tran: No Coca-Cola not in this one. And I just made a huge, huge pot and it was basically almost all gone by the end of the night. So that was like a really good feeling. Um, my brother made an incredible duck heart lap. He works at Diane’s Place, actually, it’s a famous Hmong restaurant in Minneapolis. And they processed duck on the menu. And so he had like access to all these duck organs and he made an incredible loup that he brought to the party. And my, one of my little sisters, Iris, she’s Puerto Rican and she made like tostones, like fried plantains and then she also made Puerto Rican rice, and she, she made like three or four dishes. So like, people really went above and beyond for their ancestors. I could really, I mean, it was probably like 20 people who came to this party, so there were so many dishes and they were all. So good. So I, I don’t wanna, once I get into it, I’m gonna go into it, so I’m not gonna chat your ear off.    [00:40:13] Miko Lee: Sounds lovely. Sounds yummy. Mm-hmm. And my last question is, I’m wondering what manifestation for the year of the horse you have for yourself.    [00:40:23] Macy Tran: The 18 million rising essay that I wrote came, it was right before the lunar new year that it got published. And it came during a time where I was already thinking a lot about my creative practice and how in, in relationship my creative practice in relationship with also the ways that I organize and the ways that I cook and, organize around food. And when this opportunity for this essay emerged and just the way it has been received has been such an honor, like, because I haven’t written for myself, you know, in so long and like really with my own voice I just didn’t realize that people were going to resonate with it so much and find like an invitation to engage in food justice themselves and their own ancestry. And also the ways that it made them think about food and their relationship to food. And it was such a blessing for me to receive that resonance from people, you know, and to receive, just the stories that I’ve heard and the way it spoke to them. And I felt like that has been a blessing for me to just really expand my creative practice and be more public with it. I’m like, dang, if this little thing that I wrote impacted people in the way that they think about the world, like. I have so many more ideas I wanna share and like be in partnership with others about.   [00:41:57] And I just launched my Substack, right after the Lunar New Year and I was like, all right, you’re the fire horse. Let’s freaking go. I am ready, I am running. So, I just wanna be creating so much and like act manifesting and actualizing a lot of the dreams that I have, my creative dreams that I have continued to put on the back burner. Things about hosting supper clubs and doing more work around my parents’ restaurant, like helping them create narrative around the restaurant and sharing our restaurant story with people. And just using my words and experiences as a way to connect with the world and also be open to the ways that people wanna connect with me. So that’s kind of the ways that I’m, I’m seeing this year unfold already, and it’s already started with a bang. I also wanna add that year of the fire horse for me is just a lot about movement and progress. And so in this sense movement, I think of social movements and the ways that social this particular social movement against ICE in our city will fundamentally. Impact us for the next lunar year. It happened right at the beginning of the lunar New Year and it’s going to have deep effects into the year, and we will forever be changed by this. And I am so excited to see the ways in which we harness this energy for transformation, for care into something that’s really meaningful.   [00:43:37] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for joining us on Apex Express. It was a delight to talk with you.    [00:43:42] Macy Tran: Thank you, Miko. This was so great. Thanks for having me.   [00:43:45] Miko Lee: Next up, listen to researcher professor, Dr. Milkie Vu, speak on her exploration on Asian Americans and food insecurities. Welcome, Dr. Milkie Vu, assistant professor at Northwestern. Welcome so much to Apex Express.    [00:44:04] Dr. Milkie Vu: Thank you. I’m delighted to be here.    [00:44:07] Miko Lee: Dr. Milkie is a mixed methods researcher focusing on community engagement and health issues, and I’m excited to talk with you today. I wanna start by first asking the question that I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   [00:44:24] Dr. Milkie Vu: My people are the Vietnamese community, and when I think of my people, the first word that comes to my mind is resilience. I was raised in Vietnam. I speak Vietnamese fluently and I embrace my culture very deeply. I carry the memory of my parents and grandparents who have lived to colonization multiple world. And the challenge of post-war poverty and the ability to, endure all these hardship is the legacy that I bring with me and in my day to day life it acts as a personal life of hope for me and then professionally in the. Work that I do is really a foundation and it drives my dedication and commitment to working on health solution with Asian American and immigrant communities who have similar stories of hardship, but also perseverance.   [00:45:19] Miko Lee: Thank you so much. I really appreciate how your background has informed the work that you’re doing, and I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about this study, this scoping review on food insecurity among Asian Americans. Can you one first start off by breaking down what a scoping review is.   [00:45:37] Dr. Milkie Vu: Yeah, I’m happy to talk about that. So a scoping review is essentially a methodology that we use to be able to summarize existing scientific literature and try to understand how this literature. Answer research questions that we have.   [00:45:56] Miko Lee: Can you tell me what inspired this study?    [00:45:59] Dr. Milkie Vu: I’ve done community engaged research with, Asian American population for over a decade. In doing so, I have come to realize , as an anecdotal evidence, how food insecurity is a issue in the community. And yet that’s very little that has been, done in terms of research or policy that target this problem., So for example, the US Department of Agriculture, will publish annually a report on food insecurity in America and it will include several, racial and ethnic populations, but Asian Americans are frequently ommitted from that report. So, you know, at the national level, that data doesn’t exist, which then, makes it very difficult to understand what is the severity of the problem and what are some of the solutions that could be done to address them. So that’s why we were interested in doing a deeper dive into summarizing the literature too be able to see what has been done about this problem and what are some of the barriers that exist, towards food security for community members, and what are some of the literature gaps? Our review was published in 2024 was the first scientific review of the literature on food insecurity among Asian Americans.    [00:47:27] Miko Lee: And what did your study uncover?    [00:47:31] Dr. Milkie Vu: We documented several important findings. There is a lack of existing data on this problem. Due to this myth of Asian Americans being the model minority. Assuming that Asian Americans are uniformly successful socioeconomically and thus not experiencing, any challenge including food insecurity. One of the things that we found is the importance of data disaggregation and looking at food insecurity in different Asian origin groups. We found that food insecurity really varied. So for example, if you look at some groups like Japanese Americans, we found the prevalence of between two to 11% of the population reporting food insecurity. But then if you look at some of the Southeast Asian groups, for example, Filipinos or Hmong American or Vietnamese, the rates are much higher. So the studies that we found report, between eight to 41% of food insecurity and among Filipino population. Close to 48% for more Hmong American, and then between 14 or 28% for Vietnamese Americans, so much higher than the rates for other groups.   [00:48:48] Data Dion is important and there shouldn’t be this grouping of different Asian groups in research because then it really erased like the struggles specific communities with food insecurity. I think the other finding that was really important is looking at more systemic or structural barriers that prevent people from being food secure. Our review found that limited English proficiency is a important driver of food insecurity. The lack of appropriate language services, whether that’s food pantry or for things like snap navigation. These could be important target point infusion policy or interventions that could help address food insecurity, community members. We also look at a couple of qualitative studies that found really interesting things. So for example, even when Asian American community members do use food assistance programs like snap, the benefits are often not sufficient. And they have a negative experience. There’s also fear of how that might negatively impact the immigration status or application. Those are important barriers that should be acknowledge.   [00:50:08] Miko Lee: Some of these numbers are so high. You mentioned 48% with Hmong folks with, it’s just so surprising, and I wonder if there’s a sense of the why some of these communities have a higher food insecurity than others.    [00:50:21] Dr. Milkie Vu: Yeah, one of the things that we did point out in the conclusion was the need for just more studies focusing on these, smaller Asian groups or smaller Asian population that are done in like the appropriate language to be. From some of the experience I’ve had, part of it is probably shaped by, the historical conditions to which some of these, communities might have come to the us. For example, thinking about my community Vietnamese, coming to America as refugees, fleeing persecution or free fleeing war and how that, historical conditions might create structural and socioeconomic challenge in Britain, in the community. I am also curious about is the availability of service and program that are linguistically appropriate or, providing culturally relevant food for these communities. So those are important points that we can hypothesize, but obviously more research is needed to understand, the root cause of these challenge and how to address them.   [00:51:28] Miko Lee: And were you focused on specific regions or this was national?    [00:51:34] Dr. Milkie Vu: I’m really glad that you asked about this. So the review itself is, summarizing all published literature focusing on Asian Americans. All of the studies take place in the us. A lot of the, studies probably focus on data that are from the coast. So either on Asian American, on the east coast or the west coast. , But we looked at the study like from a nationwide angle and I’m also happy to talk about some of the new committee organizations in Chicago looking at food insecurity and community-based solutions to address that among Asian Americans. Part of the motivation for the follow-up study was just thinking about the lack of data focusing on the Midwest or Chicago where I live.    [00:52:20] Miko Lee: Please, I’d love to hear more about that . [00:52:23] Dr. Milkie Vu: The COVID pandemic, had brought a lot challenges for food insecurity. For people nationwide in general, but then for Asian American, there’s also this, so what I call like the double, almost like a double pandemic, like the waves of entire Asian violence and hate crimes. And so thinking about how that impact food insecurity in general among, Asian American community members. About two years ago, we interviewed around, 13 organizations in Chicago. All of them are either community based organizations, social services or food pantry, working with, primarily with Asian American community members, from diverse groups: korean, Chinese, Vietnamese, Filipino, south Asian, Mongolian, et cetera throughout Chicago. And the question that we asked them was, thinking about what programs they have offered during the COVID pandemic that aim at reducing food insecurity among community members. How did they implement this program? Who are some of the vulnerable populations served by the program? How did the pandemic as far as anti-Asian racism impact the program organization? That was the first study that looked at how community organization in Chicago help address this issue of insecurity on this, the COVID pandemic.   [00:53:57] Miko Lee: And so what is the next step for this study or what is the next piece that you’re working on as connected to this?    [00:54:05] Dr. Milkie Vu: Yeah. Think about the role of the community organization as grassroots organizations that work from the ground up , as opposed to more top down program structure. They’re doing a lot of the heavy lifting to help community members address food insecurity, because they know the community very well. They are able to provide the in language service that community members need. They’re also trusted by community members. So a lot of the time,, certain populations especially say if those with limited their English proficiency or, more newly arrived immigrants, might feel more comfortable going here as opposed to going to this organization as opposed to, another one that are more generic and don’t have the staff that speak the right language. I think the other thing is, staff with the similar cultural backgrounds are able to understand. There was one quote from the study that I did in Chicago. That stuck with me. When we tell them you could go to the food bank, the American food is not quite tailored to their taste. So they will get a big chunk of cheese and they will be like, what is this? Nobody wants to eat this. Again, thinking about the role of committee organization as so important in knowing the language, knowing the cultural preferences. And then just thinking of ways that we can further support, the programs and operations that they do. This is a really challenging time for nonprofits, social service organization, both in terms of providing food as well as other social service to Asian American and immigrant communities. How can research from a place like, researchers, from academia like me, are able to partner with them to further the service that they do and be able to find the funding that support them and community members. I think that’s the important step for me.   [00:56:02] Miko Lee: Dr. Vu, how can folks find out more about your work?    [00:56:06] Dr. Milkie Vu: Yeah, In order to understand more about the work that we do, so we have a website, for our lab that frequently include, you know, like our current projects as well as publications. So you can go to site, so SI ts.northwestern.edu/vu group. and you’ll be able to find more information about the research that we published. We’ve also recently, in the beginning of the year start, to find ways to disseminate research on social media. So we also have a Facebook group for our lab that disseminates our research findings as well as include information about the community members and partners Other trainees in the lab that make this work possible. The labs Facebook group is at facebook.com/maybe give research. and then you can always reach out to me via my email [email protected] So I’m glad to connect with people who have similar research interests or would like to learn more about the work that we do.   [00:57:06] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for joining us and sharing your information about your important work that you’re doing on research with Asian American community. Appreciate hearing from you.    [00:57:15] Dr. Milkie Vu: Thank you so much.   [00:57:18] Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night.   The post APEX Express – 6.4.26 – Food Justice appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 5.28.26 – Building South Asian Power 28.05.2026 59мин

  APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. On this episode, host Miata Tan is joined by guests from the South Asian Coalition, an emergent national network committed to collective liberation and solidarity. Together they explore what it means to build South Asian political power in this moment—and how cross-movement solidarity can shape a more just, multiracial future. Learn more about the South Asian Coalition Website | Instagram | Policy Priorities   The South Asian Coalition was convened in October 2024 by: Manavi, Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, Muslims for Just Futures, and Raksha.   Transcript ​[00:00:00]  Miata Tan : Hello and welcome. You are tuning in to APEX Express, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host, Miata Tan. Tonight, we’re focusing on South Asian communities and the organizers working to build political power. South Asians are one of the fastest-growing racial groups in the United States, Over six million people [00:01:00] and roughly a quarter of the Asian American population. South Asian is used as a broad umbrella term for people with roots in countries such as India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka, and sometimes Afghanistan. Though exact definitions can vary across communities and organizations. And as we’ll talk about tonight, within the South Asian diaspora who call the United States home, you have a mix of nationalities, religion, immigration status, and more. Tonight, I’m joined by four people working to address the issues impacting South Asian communities in the US and beyond. At a time when questions of belonging, safety, and political power continue to shape immigrant communities across the country, South Asian organizers are building new forms of solidarity while also grappling with the diversity and complexity within their own communities. The first voice you’ll hear is Sabiha Basrai Sabiha is the daughter of Muslim Gujarati immigrants and has been [00:02:00] organizing with the Bay Area-based Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, or ASATA, since 2009. Here’s Sabiha helping us to understand how South Asian political organizing has evolved in the United States, especially in the post 9/11 era Sabiha Basrai: Thanks for the opportunity to do some reflection this year marks the 25th anniversary of 9/11, which was a real a political flashpoint that absolutely changed my life because I was a 19-year-old college student trying to figure out a lot of things about how the world works and my place in it, and my own identity and the multiple identities I hold. Uh, and also where my responsibilities lied in solidarity, not just with other Muslims who were being targeted, but our broad immigrant diasporas and allies, uh, who have experienced discrimination in different forms from the state. So thinking about the ways in which- organizing happened in the, months and years after 9/11 to support immigrant [00:03:00] rights that was really a time in which new projects formed, um, or existing projects kind of found a new focus. ASATA as an organizing project, as a group of volunteers, has both done things like shown up to support folks being called up for the NCR’s Special Registration Program and also participate in direct action protests in solidarity against the war, and has continued to be part of coalitional work regionally in the Bay Area. And, you know, more recently, uh, when we think about the ways in which our communities under, are under increased pressure with the Trump administration’s immigrant policies, there have been also opportunities to build more relationships and make sure that as we advocate for our community’s rights, we’re doing so in formation with others, not just focusing on one particular bad piece of legislation, but connecting that to a larger story, to really build towards liberation for all of us. I’ll [00:04:00] just add, too that those relationships that were kind of seeded and invested in in that moment of crisis and anxiety and fear have endured in many ways to now. The fact that that very ecosystem is actually growing in this moment is a testament to the relationships that were built in those days. Miata Tan : That was Sabiha Basrai grounding us in the history of South Asian political organizing in the US. As she mentioned, for many South Asians, 9/11 marked a particularly mobilizing moment, one that helped our communities organized and built solidarity. To help us better understand how that moment influenced the evolution of progressive South Asian activism, we now turn to Deepa Iyer, South Asian American writer, strategist, and lawyer. Deepa leads projects on solidarity and social movements at Building Movement Project and brings more than 25 years of experience in Asian American organizing and advocacy Deepa Iyer: I think that I would say that there [00:05:00] were, looking back, a couple of trends and themes that we can pull out from that time. one is that there was definitely a shift in the general consciousness of South Asian communities about our place in American society, our understanding of racism, Islamophobia, and also the role of the state. And so we had a situation where both hate violence and state violence were actually being endured by South Asian, Muslim, Arab communities. And so I think that there was a shift in the ways in which our communities began to think about ourselves in the United States. A second piece is the growth of a field, an ecosystem of South Asian organizations in the wake of the attacks and the global war on terror. So we began to see a lot of groups that were actually formed or becoming more staffed up in the weeks and months after 9/11. For example, the Sikh [00:06:00] Coalition was actually birthed the evening of the attacks, and an organization that I was close to, SALT, was also emerging and forming in the months after 9/11 as well. So we began to see that a, a field was growing. And the third, sort of theme I would point out that Sabihah alluded to is this sense of solidarity, that instead of sort of being siloed as, you know, South Asians working within just our communities and just talking about certain specific issues, there was real sense that we needed to collaborate and build bridges with Arab, Muslim, Sikh, and, Black communities in the United States to understand the trajectory of racism and xenophobia, and how they were all kind of coming together in the weeks after 9/11. Those three themes and trends are what, when I look back, I see coming up over and over again in our messaging and in our advocacy. Miata Tan : [00:07:00] That was Deepa Iyer, as you heard from Deepa, collaboration across movements was essential in helping South Asian communities to understand and respond to the waves of xenophobia in the wake of 9/11. Now we turn to Rajiv Narayan and Farah Mahesri, who lead national policy work at the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, or ASATA together they launched and now co-lead ASATA’s new political base building group, ASATA Power. Rajiv begins by reflecting on what South Asian communities are facing today and what has and hasn’t changed since 9/11. Rajiv Narayan: I think unfortunately many of the challenges present in the early 2000s remain today. They take new form. Some have evolved and transformed, but they were ex- existed in, in much the same form following 9/11. One of the, the instances in which I, I learned about that is at the recent South Asian Coalition convening where we did this exercise in mapping a number of [00:08:00] historical and present day events, as well as a future vision of things that are important to our organizations and to our movements. And something that we reflected on together in the convening is that a number of these attacks on our communities have waxed and waned, uh, at different periods in time, dating back to the, the 1960s and truly at, even at the beginning of, you know, the 19th century and the late 18th century. And so, to answer your question specifically, in the early 2000s, like Deepa and Sabihah mentioned, we’ve dealt with, uh, an incredible expression of Islamophobia of, uh, anti-Brown and anti-Black racism and hate speech. There was a, in, in general a skepticism and unwelcoming of South Asian communities. And unfortunately with the current federal administration and political discourse in our country, uh, a number of those same themes are relevant today and take on similar forms, whether they’re in [00:09:00] response to what the federal administration is doing in countries like Iran or previous administrations have done in Afghanistan or Pakistan. I think all of those events underscore all the more so that it’s important for our organizations to, organize together, much as we did in the early 2000s, to address these harms, to remember what they look like at previous stages of history, and to fight to prevent them again from happening in the future. Miata Tan : Farah, perhaps you could speak a bit to the organizing. What did that look like, a few years ago, and what does that look like today? How has that changed? Farah Mahersi: Rajiv and I started ASATA Power a couple of years ago specifically to be able to look forward to practice radical imagination, and fight for not just protection of our communities, which we will always do. That is built into our DNAs. It’s what we know. It’s how we move. And also to fight for things that we want, to build the world that we want to live in so that we’re not constantly caught in these cycles. And as we’re doing [00:10:00] that, we are learning a lot about how organizing is happening today, the BLM movement, Black Lives Matter, and incredible street power, but also that movement’s ability to change our national discourse and change what is baseline, what we should be demanding, and how we are visioning a future that is built on policies governance and hard material changes in our lives is profound. beyond that, also the Palestine solidarity movement over the last couple of years has rewritten every book about organizing. And so I think that it is an interesting moment of both a little bit of sadness, to be honest, that we are still fighting some of these same fights and we are still in some of these same dynamics that we have been for 25 years, and the profound opportunity that we have to build power and to look forward, and I think that is, more true in the Bay Area than it is almost everywhere else. Uh, because of what our workforce looks like, because of the sheer [00:11:00] amount of wealth that is accumulated in this little corner of our world, and also when you look around at the political power and people who hold political power or are running for political power and elected office around the Bay Area, you could really start to see not just how South Asians are increasingly politicized and increasingly looking to build electoral and political power, but also s- very specifically progressive political power. And so when you look to Congress now, The progressive caucus is full of South Asian progressives who are leading the charge, who are doing some of this critical work, that’s part of our organizing strategy, is to be part of those conversations and to continue to push and to continue to, again, advocate for policies and changes at that big level to make the future we want possible. Miata Tan : I love that. Coming together to dream and really fight. Rajiv, you are leading this work at the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action. Can you speak more to why the Bay Area [00:12:00] is a, like, a distinct microcosm in this progressive South Asian movement? Rajiv Narayan: Of course. So Farah and I, we both work together at ASATA Power, and ASATA is sort of political power building project within the auspices of, uh, ASATA which has been operating in the Bay Area for more than 25 years now. I think what makes the Bay Area a microcosm of the South Asian diaspora is a tremendous amount of diversity and, uh, a set of interrelated intersectional challenges. So you have, uh, folks of South Asian descent with all different immigration histories. So I’m, for example, a person, um, who has birthright citizenship in the United States as I was born here. But there are folks who immigrated here, like my parents and had to attain their citizenship uh, through the, the US legal system, and folks beyond that who are refugees or asylees or are undocumented due to a variety of political and social and economic pressures. And so we all coexist in this same space across an economic gradient. So there are folks [00:13:00] who are very well compensated in the tech sectors and healthcare sectors sometimes, uh, characterized, uh, as part of a, a model minority myth, um, as representatives of the South Asian diaspora, um, within the San Francisco Bay Area and the United States broadly. And then there are whole variety of South Asians who are working in less well-compensated, often quite exploited industries. For example, in, care industries as people who are providing childcare or senior care services, people who are working in the restaurant industry folks who are lesser compensated within healthcare as well as in tech industries and other ways. Of course, those economic positions interact with the political and legal system. So for example, even if a person might be, um, well-compensated in a tech job in the Bay Area, um, which they attained by way of an H-1B visa that person might be subject to exploitative labor conditions based on the, uh, the legal configuration of how H-1B [00:14:00] visas are treated. For example, that you depend on your employer for your immigration status in this country, which changes the worker-employer relationship in a way that makes it very difficult to identify workplace abuses. beyond that, we also have a diverse range of South Asians across the age gradient. So we have folks who are quite young, who are in Gen Z, and are entering politics in a completely different way than somebody like myself or Deepa entered politics at, in earlier in, in our lives and experience it today, which provides an opportunity for us to learn from earlier generations and to also share lessons from our political experience. So like with many things, the Bay Area has it all, the good and the bad, and ASATA and ASATA Power work within that, that space to identify opportunities for solidarity. Miata Tan : That was Rajiv Narayan and Farah Mehestri. Through their work with the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, or ASATA, Rajiv and Farah are helping to build South Asian political power here in the Bay Area and [00:15:00] nationwide. The ASATA team and all four of our guests tonight are connected through the South Asian Coalition, a network of local and national organizations focused on advancing policy issues affecting South Asian communities and building shared spaces for strategy and collaboration. To better understand this evolving movement of progressive South Asian action, let’s return to Deepa Iyer, who shares how and why this coalition came together Deepa Iyer: Yeah. I really appreciate Rajiv bringing up, um, how- what is happening in the Bay Area is part of a larger movement. And what I would say about this ecosystem, this field that I talked about earlier, and I’ve been able to understand this through the course of the work I’ve done, but also a book I’ve written about post 9/11 America, is that so much happens on the coasts, and we often forget that there are organizations and are communities that are really [00:16:00] growing in other parts of the country, right? You know, I grew up in Kentucky, um, and there are places like Kentucky and Indiana where you are seeing, um, more South Asians settle and build their lives there. So one of the things that I think has been important in thinking about as we come up on this 25th anniversary of 9/11 is how our coalition of South Asian groups, how that field has grown with these additional organizations, in geographic areas that are different, as well as the ways in which folks are organizing. So now we’ve got, for example, groups that are working with Bhutanese refugees or Nepali-speaking community members, or groups that are organizing around the exploitation of community members based on caste. These are, um, really important movement interventions and organizations that are growing. one of the key aspects of network infrastructure is the ability to connect with each other, [00:17:00] not to flatten our experiences and say we’re all the same, but to actually find some threads of commonality in our shared struggle and our experiences, and to also know that together as collectives, as Farah mentioned earlier, we can actually build the futures that we wanna see. One of the really, I think, inspiring pieces of coalition building that I’ve been fortunate to work with and support along with, um, everyone here is the South Asian Coalition, which is this emergent network of now 35 organizations around the country, and this coalition really seeks to build relationships and strengthen relationships, engage in peer learning and skills building, make it clear that there are certain policy issues that we need to uplift and to advocate around, and to create opportunities and pathways for solidarity with larger movements. This coalition and the infrastructure that it’s been [00:18:00] creating is a way for us to look at our ecosystem of South Asian organizing in this moment, and to really see what happens when we galvanize our power collectively. Miata Tan : and Deepa, can you share a bit about the various co-conveners that make up the South Asian Coalition?  Deepa Iyer: So the South Asian Coalition, um, as we’ve mentioned, is this emergent network of groups that address various issues but are aligned around shared values. And the groups that really came together to co-convene it include Asad the Power, as well as Muslims for Just Futures, Raksha, which is an organization in the South, and Manavi, which is based in New Jersey. And these four organizations really had the vision to set up the structure for the coalition. the organization where I work at, Building Movement Project, supports the coalition through infrastructure, so providing facilitation, providing resources, policy analysis, and creating the container to support [00:19:00] movements in that way, which is so critical for coalitions. Miata Tan : That was Deepa Iyer a South Asian American writer, strategist, and lawyer. after the break, we’ll hear more from organizers and advocates working to address issues shaping South Asian communities today. Stay with us  [00:20:00] [00:21:00] that was “Phenom” by Thao and the Get Down Stay Down. You are tuned into [00:22:00] APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host, Miada Tan. Tonight, I’m joined by four people who are working to address the issues impacting South Asian communities in the US and beyond. Back in March, organizers, advocates, and community leaders from across the country gathered in Washington, DC, for a national convening focused on the challenges and possibilities facing South Asian communities today. Here’s Sabiha Basrai with the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, or ASATA. She speaks about how this coalition of progressive South Asian groups formed and why this moment called for it. Sabiha Basrai: So this new emergent South Asian Coalition had its first convening in Washington, DC in March, and this was, the culmination of, a little over a year of monthly Zoom calls which started because [00:23:00] we knew we were on the verge of a Trump re-election. Uh, we knew that there was this ecosystem of South Asian activism and organizing across the country. Some of us knew each other from previous collaborations, but some of us didn’t. New organizations were forming, and there was this recognition that we need each other in order to face what’s coming, and we are stronger together. And we know that being South Asian is not a monolith, uh, that we deal with within our own communities based on labor exploitation, caste discrimination, anti-Muslim violence. And when we talk to each other, when we connect, we give ourselves the best chance at being able to move through those pieces of pain and build towards a future where we can all feel a sense of belonging, feel represented, and an agency in shaping that future together. So what started with a few conversations with a few folks, grew steadily [00:24:00] and, um, and through some intentional work to, to kind of invite each other in, which is of course an ongoing process, we were able to unite under this umbrella called the South Asian Coalition. Uh, we committed to some shared political points of unity and kind of community agreements to really set some expectations with one another on how we could move well in formation. And, made sure we had pathways to share information with each other so that someone like me working in Oakland could understand what, uh, someone working in Texas or in Georgia was facing, what local policy positions they were needing to, to navigate. And, uh, we could give each other advice, give each other moral support, and also sharpen our political understandings. So, uh, these kind of, uh, regular check-ins was one way of just understanding what we were all facing and feeling connected. But, actually being together in person was remarkable. I cannot overstate how much of a difference it makes to be able to share [00:25:00] space and see each other as whole people and not just representatives of a particular organization or a particular issue area, and, have those in-between moments where we actually build, build some friendships. One of the things that was also really important for me to understand when we met together was just how important that intergenerational work is. we had folks in the room who were, in their 50s and 60s who had been doing this work for decades. And we had folks in the room who were in their 20s for whom 9/11 was, something that happened in history. The conversations that were happening across generations informed the way that we think about ourselves as a coalition and helped me also to let go of some of the constraints that, kept my imagination small about what we were capable of. I was really grateful that so many people attended and chose to prioritize that work. It’s hard, you know, to take a pause from The daily work to leave, fly to [00:26:00] DC take those risks as well because for many of us, uh, going through TSA is no small thing. There’s a lot of harassment and racism that still permeate, you know, these institutions. So not to minimize just the effort that ta- it takes to convene and really make the most of our time together. One of the things that we did while we were in DC together was hold a congressional briefing to really, uh, amplify and share the issues that were coming up for our communities that folks were already working very hard on. Miata Tan : That was Sabiha Basrai with the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, or ASATA. Now let’s return to Rajiv Narayan, another member of the ASATA team and co-lead of their political action group, ASATA Power. Rajiv will take you inside the congressional briefing that Sabiha mentioned and how South Asian organizers from across the country shared the issues shaping their communities and what support is needed now Rajiv Narayan: We in ASATA Power worked in [00:27:00] collaboration with a number of the organizations in the South Asian coalition, to put together a congressional briefing on the issue of South Asians and immigration in the heart of Washington, DC, in the halls of Congress in Capitol Hill. And we were fortunate to do so in collaboration with Representatives Pramila Jayapal and Grace Meng. we had a number of, speakers representing, different perspectives and political struggles within the South Asian, uh, space in the United States, especially as it relates to immigration. So, for example, we had representatives from the Dalit Solidarity Forum talking about the plight of oppressed workers, caste-oppressed workers, in New Jersey working in a Hindu temple.  ​ Dr Roja Sunganthy-Singh – Dalit: I stand here as a Dalit, formerly known as an untouchable in India’s caste system, speaking for over two hundred skilled Dalit artisans who were brought to the US from India to build the largest Hindu temple in New Jersey. In their words, ” We are the Indian stone workers of America, workers [00:28:00] rescued by the FBI in twenty twenty-one from forced labor conditions constructing the BAPS temple in New Jersey. we were brought to the US on R one visas and compelled to perform construction labor for over eighty-seven hours a week and paid just a dollar twenty an hour. Rajiv Narayan: We heard from, um, the executive director of the Sikh Coalition talking about Sikh truck drivers and religious workers and their experience under the federal regime’s, uh, rule-making efforts. Harman Singh – Sikh Coalition: Uh, Punjabi Sikhs began entering the US trucking industry in large numbers during the nineteen eighties, and Sikh truck drivers and business owners have played a critical role in addressing driver shortages over the past several years. Unfortunately, Sikhs in this critical industry have become the subject of harmful rhetoric and policy from this current administration. These drivers are being excluded solely because of their specific immigration status and regardless of their driving histories, skills, knowledge, or English proficiency.  Rajiv Narayan: We heard from, the executive director of Asian Refugees United, who [00:29:00] spoke about the experience of Bhutanese refugees who have been rendered stateless by the current administration’s, deportation efforts Robin Gurung – ARU: Because of the ethnic cleansing campaign of Bhutan government, more than hundred thousand Bhutanese citizens were forced to flee the country. For twenty years, I lived in a refugee camp in Nepal. In 2008, the government of this country came to rescue us. We were promised safety and security. But last year, that promise was broken. As of March 2025, over seventy of our community members are deported to Bhutan, the same country that persecuted us and made us refugees. These community members are kidnapped from their homes and jobs. They have been taken from their routine ICE check-ins. We know due process was not followed. Rajiv Narayan: We also heard from the executive director of Raksha, a domestic violence organization based in the Southern United States that has played an instrumental role in supporting South Asians who have been the victims [00:30:00] and who are now survivors of domestic and intimate partner violence, about the needs for supporting these kinds of organizations, with federal dollars and through the grant-making systems conditions. Aparna Bhattacharyya – Raksha: For thirty years, we have supported community members in navigating interpersonal violence, but also waves of racism and policy backlash.  South Asian and Indo-Caribbean survivors need safe places to turn, safe places that speak their language, understand their unique immigration and cultural needs. Raksha recently had $700,000 in OVC grants terminated by DOGE. additionally, we are still waiting for OVW sexual assault cultural funds for five months, where we have gotten no determination of whether we’re getting that funding or not. Five months. Rajiv Narayan: We also heard from, the director of the South Asian American Justice Collaborative, which is currently, before the US Supreme Court in the birthright citizenship case, and [00:31:00] filed this foundational amicus brief detailing the story of South Asians in the United States going back to the 1600s. Klapana Peddibhotla – SAAJCO: Our brief pushes back against this notion that we are forever foreign.  South Asians actually arrived on these shores in the sixteen hundreds, and by the seventeen hundreds, South Asians were already asserting their rights here. In an Afghan immigrant actually fought in the Civil War in the Union Army. by the late nineteenth century, the largest farming group in Central California was formed by Punjabis. Today, South Asians are one of the largest immigrant populations in the US, but many families are caught in immigration backlogs that last for decades and make them vulnerable to the President’s executive order restricting birthright citizenship. Rajiv Narayan: Across all of these speakers, you know, the, the, the message became very clear that we have so many different struggles, but they’re all [00:32:00] united by a sense of solidarity for each other’s political experiences under the same system of exploitation and oppression, and that there, there’s so much that Congress can do in this moment to support the South Asian diaspora in the United States and, and even abroad in some cases. for ASATA Power’s part, we, had the opportunity to put together over the course of the last year a policy brief on undocumented South Asians, and it was during the congressional briefing that we shared some pretty startling statistics that we, collected and collated from a number of public sources. And so what we were able to identify for the room is that there are about eight hundred thousand to nine hundred thousand undocumented South Asians in the United States, and because there are only six point five million South Asians in the US, both those who are undocumented and those who have birthright citizenship or are otherwise naturalized, refugees, asylees, and, and everyone in between. Of those six point five million South Asians One in eight of [00:33:00] them is undocumented, which is shocking and not something that somebody would understand at the outset given these problematic narratives like the model minority myth and whatever you see these days on X or Twitter about South Asian immigrants. So it’s important for us not only to, to set the narrative straight and to identify both the diversity and opportunity for solidarity across our struggles, but to do so in the halls of power and to speak that truth to power directly. Miata Tan : That’s Rajiv with ASATA Power reflecting on a recent congressional briefing in Washington, DC he helped to organize alongside other progressive South Asian leaders, organizers, and activists. Here’s a snippet of Rajiv’s opening remarks at the briefing Rajiv Narayan: I want to draw your attention to the slide behind me, they’ll show a couple of images of South Asian community members who’ve been impacted recently by the horrific policies and practices of the federal administration. These members include Sheraz Fatehali Sachwani, a forty-eight-year-old citizen of Pakistan who died in ICE [00:34:00] detention last December. They include seventy-three-year-old Harjit Kaur, who was arrested during a routine ICE check-in, separated from her family, and deported to India without notice. I should say, I grew up seeing Harjit Kaur behind the counter at Sari Palace in Berkeley. She would help my mom try on saris. Her home was here. Her community was here. You know, these are just some of the names and stories of community members who have been affected by immigration policy as of late, and we hope that you will keep them in mind as you hear from our speakers today. There are many more we were not able to picture or name, but their stories are just as important. We’ll be making many asks over the course of today’s briefing. Some of those include the following: Congress should not increase funding for ICE or Border Patrol, including providing funds for detention facilities, especially in this funding moment. We have to remember that ICE is not a long-standing American institution. It was created in two thousand and two, recently, as part of the Homeland Security Act following nine [00:35:00] eleven. Miata Tan : That was Rajiv Narayan with ASATA Power speaking at a recent congressional briefing in Washington, DC. The briefing was part of a larger national convening organized by the South Asian Coalition, bringing together progressive South Asian groups from across the country. Now let’s return to Deepa Iyer, who leads projects on solidarity and social movements at Building Movement Project here’s Deepa reflecting on her takeaways from the congressional briefing Deepa Iyer: I think that there were so many pieces in that briefing that maybe people didn’t know about that organizations are struggling with, and part of it is that, um, our communities, and Sabihah said this earlier, are not a monolith, right? And there are so many different ways in which we are experiencing what is happening right now in the United States, the fractures and the fissures that we’re seeing. Rajiv spoke so well about the community needs and issues. One thing I’ll lift up is actually the impact on nonprofit [00:36:00] organizations. Several of the groups that were, uh, speaking at the briefing noted how the attacks on nonprofits that are specifically working on issues like immigration in terms of losing federal funding and grants, being forced to certify that they are not addressing issues work that deal with undocumented immigrants, as well as the ways in which, um, nonprofit organizations are being, in some ways, seen as doing risky and un-American work. there is the, the exploitation of domestic terrorism as a frame that is being used right now to target certain nonprofit organizations. This is something that I think is not necessarily known to many people in terms of the ways in which national security, immigration issues are also affecting the nonprofit sector as a whole. And where I work at the Building Movement Project, we really look at the nonprofit sector and the health of the nonprofit sector, and we’re [00:37:00] seeing that these types of external threats, the spotlight on organizations that are on the front lines, including South Asian groups, um, Muslim groups, Palestinian groups, that are working with, um, immigrant communities, queer and trans community members that are providing- Vital language access, service provision, community safety are really under threat right now, and this includes many of the organizations that were present at the, coalition’s convening. So that’s something that I also wanna lift up, that in addition to our communities who are facing the impact of the current moment in really acute ways, our nonprofit sector and our organizations are also dealing with a range of constraints and threats and difficulties. So that is one thing that came up over and over again. Miata Tan : That was Deepa Iyer with the Building Movement Project, highlighting the pressures facing the nonprofit sector right now, [00:38:00] especially as it relates to South Asian organizers, advocates, and communities. Let’s return to Farah Mahesri with ASATA Pawa.  Farah Mahersi: One of the other things that I am very proud of for this congressional briefing that we did was that it was us telling our own stories and us presenting our own policy recommendations. There was no need to have, like, an expert come in and talk on behalf of our communities or try to represent our communities. We were the experts in the room, and we were really recognized and seen as that. As Rajiv mentioned, you know, there, the room was packed with Hill staffers and congressional staffers who were taking diligent notes as we spoke our truths Miata Tan : That was Farah Mahesri with ASATA Pawa reflecting on the recent congressional briefing she helped to organize, one that brought greater visibility to the experiences of South Asian immigrants. You’ll hear more on how South Asian activists, organizers, and community groups [00:39:00] are mobilizing after this. Stay with us ​ Miata Tan : [00:40:00] [00:41:00] [00:42:00] That was Lion on the Hunt by Thao and the Get Down Stay Down. You are tuned into APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host, Miata Tan. Tonight, we’re talking about South Asian organizing in the United States and how community leaders are responding to immigration challenges, political representation, and the shifting landscape of civil rights back in March, organizers and advocates from across the country gathered in Washington, DC for a national convening focused on the challenges and possibilities facing South Asian communities today. Here’s Rajiv Narayan with the Alliance of [00:43:00] South Asians Taking Action, or ASATA, reflecting on the importance of honoring both the diversity of the South Asian diaspora and the shared struggle that connects these communities Rajiv Narayan: Something I appreciate about, your work, Miata, at APEX Express, is to highlight both that diversity of the South Asian diaspora and the many struggles and experiences that unite our political experiences and our commitment to social justice. It, it used to be, and in, in some places it still is the case, that folks will use an over-broad group to represent all of the South Asian diaspora. For example, talking about all Brown people as Indian or Desi or to, to collapse all the differences in our community. And part of the power of the congressional briefing is that we are able to show that what it means to be South Asian is at once an incredibly diverse expression and at the same time a collective expression of solidarity. We can do two of these things at the same time. We can recognize our differences and fight for each other. One of my [00:44:00] favorite takeaways that I, I heard from Deepa at the briefing is that there are some staffers that came up to her and said, “I’ve never heard my story, my experience, my political struggles represented in a panel in this building in front of other congressional staffers.” And that’s something that we can do, and we should do more of. There are so many ways in which we can tell the stories and highlight the campaigns of folks from different parts of the South Asian diaspora who are all fighting for a better life for all of us. Miata Tan : That was Rajiv Narayan with ASATA, in the recent congressional briefing that Rajiv helped to organize through the South Asian Coalition, organizers also pointed toward the future of South Asian organizing in the United States and the role of a new generation shaping it. back to Deepa Iyer with Building Movement Project. Here, Deepa Iyer: Some of the young folks that are entering or working at nonprofits now, supporting South Asian nonprofits don’t have a living memory of 9/11 and the global war on terror, [00:45:00] and they have been politicized in different ways, right, over the last eight years, for example, the pandemic global wars, et cetera. And so there are a couple of ways in which I’ve been thinking about how we can support South Asian young people. so for example, how can we share historical analysis and political analysis so that young people understand that they are part of a trajectory of South Asian activism that actually started well before 9/11, before the 1960s, right, and that continues to today, so they don’t feel fragmented. So that’s something I’ve been sitting with a lot. Another is around pathways into public service and community service and into the nonprofit sector. So how could we support young people in terms of building their skills, in having pathways open to them into our nonprofit organizations? And then finally, how do we support them, um, so that they, can do this work for the long run? You know, we all struggle with burnout, we all [00:46:00] struggle with sustainability. what are some lessons learned that we can pass on? What are some best practices? that’s something that’s been sitting with me quite a bit since the gathering that we had, and I hope that the coalition will really think about, supporting young people’s leadership and finding different avenues and pathways to do that. Miata Tan : That was Deepa Iyer reflecting on how movements can better support the next generation of South Asian organizers. Within the South Asian coalition, that work also means building long-term infrastructure for better collaboration. Now back to Sabiha Basrai with ASATA. Sabiha Basrai: I’m also really appreciating that the South Asian Coalition is this model for creating a container for many, many organizations to unite as a group while maintaining regional focus and individual issue priorities. I also wanna name that the place where I first learned how to do national coalition work was as a member of the National South Asian Coalition that ASATA had been part of. [00:47:00] It was facilitated by a group called SALT which played such a critical role in the post 9/11 era and continued to then work on DACA, creating resources for undocumented South Asians, along with other issues facing our diverse diasporas. And SALT closed a few years ago. It was a decision that I don’t understand and was- has really left me with a lot of sadness and confusion. but I al- I know that sometimes institutions do end, but that the work does not end and the relationships do not end. And the South Asian Coalition is this emergent space that, um, is not led by any one organization. it is a space that is being invested in collectively, and we’re really moving at the speed of trust so that we can be really laying that strong foundation that supports the work ahead. I’m really sitting with the ways in which sometimes this labor of Building the container, creating the container, [00:48:00] investing in the network. It’s sometimes invisible labor, but it is the most critical because without it we can have moments of mass mobilization, but then that wasn’t actually building any power over the long term. And I’m really looking forward to all of the very good work ahead, because I trust the relationships and the containers that we’re building. Miata Tan : That was Sabiha reflecting on the collaborative infrastructure that the South Asian Coalition is helping to build. Now let’s return to Deepa Iyer. I asked Deepa what campaigns are on the horizon for the coalition, especially as this year marks 25 years since 9/11. Deepa Iyer: As Sabiha mentioned, the coalition is a space for invested leadership, and so there are lots of different campaigns that groups within the coalition are eyeing and taking on. One of them Rajiv mentioned already is the fight around birthright citizenship. And so there are groups like SACHCO and others that showed up with a South Asian [00:49:00] delegation at the Supreme Court on April 1st when that case was being heard, and it was really great to see so many South Asians out there in a delegation along with other communities, to raise their voices on this really vital, pivotal issue. And so that is a campaign that some of the groups within the coalition are going to continue to be lifting up as we get the results of that case and moving forward. Another one that you mentioned, is around the 25th anniversary of 9/11, and there are groups that are considering, along with others in other movement spaces what does narrative strategy look like as we go into this time period? How do we think about the fact that we’re marking the 25th anniversary in the same year that we’re marking the 250th anniversary of the United States, right? how do we use 9/11 and its anniversary as a lens through which we understand empire, through which we understand the ways in which domestic [00:50:00] policies are being recirculated against other communities? And also this piece around awareness and education. this is an opportunity to share some of the personal experiences that many of us have around that moment in time, but also the ways in which our communities have built up themselves as well as the solidarity with other communities. So I think there are lots of ways in which organizations are thinking about that anniversary and how they can, utilize that moment, to draw greater attention to our community’s experiences. Miata Tan : Rajiv, Farah, would you like to add anything about upcoming campaigns and how you’re thinking about the South Asian political power movement moving forwards?  Rajiv Narayan: Yeah, I’m happy to talk about one sort of continuing campaign, which is that, like I mentioned, we put together this policy brief on undocumented South Asians, and we had this great opportunity to circulate and talk about it on Capitol Hill in DC. But it’s also important for us to bring that story home. And so part of [00:51:00] what we’ll be doing, um, for the remainder of, of this year is identifying opportunities to do town halls both, with community members and potentially with elected officials to help educate, do political education about the nature of undocumented peoples in the South Asian community. A large part of what we did in that policy brief is to collate all these numbers to tell you, how many folks might be undocumented, what is the proportion of undocumented people in the South Asian community. But an important, equally important contribution of that report is the nature of undocumented experiences. Why do people become undocumented? What are the factors that put them in that position, and what does it mean for a person to become undocumented? How can we support them, not just in different policy prescriptions, but also the ways that we talk about undocumented people and the South Asian community as a whole? So that’ll, that’ll be, um, a focus that we have, uh, and a contribution that we hope to make both in the, the Bay Area and beyond.  Farah Mahersi: I’ll add to that, that it is election year. It is [00:52:00] a… I feel like we say every election is a critical election, and I do believe that that is very true this year. And so ASATA Power, as a political organization, will be making endorsements and talking through not just that it is important to vote, but it is really important and critical for us in this moment to vote for progressive candidates who are part of our, what is often called like a build coalition, who are here to help us build this world that we are dreaming of, who are aligned on policy positions. The other thing that we are working on locally and nationally is around the war budget. So as a group that has been so directly impacted by the global war on terror 4.5 million Muslims around the world who have been killed by US war-making in that global war on terror, and just watching kind of what the United States foreign policy in particular over the last couple of years has been, we have a particular point of view and a particular interest on tracking and watching things like the [00:53:00] largest, request for a defense budget in US history. How are those dollars being spent, And how those dollars that are being spent abroad to do war-making are also having a boomerang effect and coming back to impact our communities at home. So the same technologies that were developed and used in war-making through the global war on terror that impacted, uh, so many of our communities around the world for 25 years, a lot of that is the same technology that ICE is now using to go after undocumented South Asians in the United States, right? And so that’s another way in which we really see our struggles are interconnected, and that we are wanting to dismantle als- a lot of these systems of harm, and also, again, at that intersection between both hate violence and state oppression that’s happening. Miata Tan : That was Farah Mahestri with ASATA and ASATA Power. As she shared, ASATA Power is focused on the midterm elections and how war spending and post 9/11 policies continue to affect South Asian communities today. [00:54:00] To close out, we return to another ASATA organizer, Sabiha Basrai. Sabiha Basrai: So I wanted to bring the conversation back locally to the Bay Area again, and just thinking about, the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, which is, part of a network of AAPI and Asian organizing in the Bay Area as a space where South Asians progressive South Asians can actually build community, sharpen our political analysis, embrace our responsibilities here in the Bay Area in this political moment. And just also, lifting up that ASATA currently is working on things like the Oakland Arms Embargo or local community defense against ICE , environmental justice projects, and also looking for more ways to fight supremacist ideologies of Hindutva but in collaboration with anti-Zionist Jewish community activists. these are opportunities that we have here in the Bay Area. And also thinking about ways that we participate in mobilizations. Like, we show up for Reclaim MLK Day, [00:55:00] International Working Women’s Day, May Day, the Trans March every year because we understand our responsibility to show up and to show up consistently. And so when I think about the South Asian Coalition and this moment of, okay, we’ve been trying to- we’ve built- been building towards this convening and this congressional briefing, and now we’re on the other side of this moment, and we are kind of reflecting and coming back together around how we maintain this energy. Also wanted to highlight,  Some of the amazing work that many of our coalition members are, are already doing. One is Savaira, so Savaira United Against Supremacy is actually a coalition of work as well, they focused, their energy on addressing Hindu nationalism and and Hindutva ideology and the, and the many ways in which, the supremacist ideology is kind of insidiously part of institutions, policy even cultural work, uh, within our diaspora. they’re so committed to both, like, [00:56:00] resisting the tides of hatred but also combating all forms of supremacist politics and the intersections between them. so their, their work has been a big part of my political education, and I’m really glad that they’re part of this coalition. Every member of the coalition is bringing analysis and experience that cross-pollinates to the rest of us. So I’m looking forward to just more of that   also considering what ASATA’s role is and how ASATA working in the Bay Area alongside so many other amazing organizing projects here can be strengthening those relationships nationally. Miata Tan : That was Sabiha Basrai with the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, or ASATA.  This is APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. APEX Express airs every Thursday evening at 7:00 PM. And with that, we’re at the end of our time here [00:57:00] tonight. We really appreciate you for tuning in to listen, and a huge thank you to our wonderful guests. For a transcript of tonight’s episode, please visit our website. That’s kpfa.org/program/apex-express  We’ve also added links on the episode page for tonight’s show so you can learn more about the South Asian Coalition, ASATA, and all of the organizations we’ve talked about tonight, along with their upcoming campaigns as well. APEX Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me, Miata Tan. Get some rest y’all. The post APEX Express – 5.28.26 – Building South Asian Power appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 4.30.26 – Bruce Lee and the Manosphere 30.04.2026 59мин

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight on APEX Express, Host Miko Lee focuses on Asian American Men, Bruce Lee and the mano-sphere. She chats with renowned author and thinker Jeff Chang about his new book: Bruce Lee & the making of Asian America, Water Mirror Echo. Then she talks with Rachel Koelzer the Communications Director for Nakasec about their new study of Asian American men and the manosphere. How are images of Asian American male identify being shaped and formed in our current society and what does Bruce Lee have to do with this? Listen in. More in tonight’s show Jeff Chang’s book: Water, Mirror, Echo Nakasec ReportAsian American Men and Mano-sphere CAAMFest 2026, running May 7-10, 2026, San Francisco’s AMC Kabuki Theatre Show Transcripts [00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.   [00:00:40] Miko Lee: Welcome to Apex Express. I’m your host, Mika Lee, and tonight we are focusing on Asian American men, Bruce Lee and the Manosphere. I chat with renowned author and thinker Jeff Chang about his new book, Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America Water Mirror Echo. Then I speak with Rachel Koelzer, the communications director for NAKASEC, about their new study of Asian American men and the Manosphere. So how are images of Asian American male identity being shaped and formed in our current society, and what does Bruce Lee have to do with all this? First, listen to my conversation with author Jeff Chang. Welcome Jeff Chang to Apex Express.    [00:01:24] Jeff Chang: Ah, it’s so great to be here. Miko. So happy.    [00:01:27] Miko Lee: I’m so happy to talk with you about your latest book. You’re such a prolific writer, and here you have written a big Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America Water Mirror Echo. Such a mighty title. I wanna start first just a question that I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   [00:01:49] Jeff Chang: Oh my gosh. What a great question to start with. You know, my family, my communities, they all kind of blend together, the blood family, the kin family, and the chosen family, for me. I guess I’m always [laughs], I’m first born Chinese Kanaka, you know, I’m always aware that I am, representing, I guess, So I, you know, I carry that family with me wherever I go.   [00:02:16] Miko Lee: I, I think I know what that means. But for our audience that might not know what a firstborn Chinese kanaka means, can you break that down a little bit? What does that mean to you when you say that?    [00:02:25] Jeff Chang: Yeah, I mean, you know, it’s just the, i, it it’s just a thing of, you know, you’re gonna go out and represent the family and, you’re thrust into Taking on responsibilities and stuff for your folks, your siblings, your, younger cousins, those kinds of things. I was always very aware of that within the family. My dad’s from a really big family, had six siblings and, my mom’s from a large extended, family. so that’s, That’s such a fantastic question Miko. Bruce was the second child, which, you know, birth order and all that kind of stuff. It also squares, I think with, a Chinese family. He felt like he was always in the shadow of his older brother.   [00:03:10] Miko Lee: Okay. Hold on. Let’s get to Bruce in a second. I wanna finish with you as an author, creator person.    [00:03:16] Jeff Chang: Okay.    [00:03:16] Miko Lee: Wait, so you are the number one son.    [00:03:18] Jeff Chang: I’m the number one son. Yeah.    [00:03:19] Miko Lee: Ooh, okay. I get it. Yeah. And then what is the legacy that you carry with you?    [00:03:24] Jeff Chang: The legacy. I just have to represent, in a point, a kind of a way, in a proper kind of a way. You know, the family , and those kinds of things. I was also very rebellious. I came back after my freshman year as the Berkeley Radical. My Uncle Fungi was like, oh, here comes the Berkeley radical. Okay. Then of course, you gotta sit down and drink beer and tell ’em , all the stories and that kind of thing. So, you know, just being able to, carry on, a legacy of being upright and being, just, right. And sort of being appropriate in all that you do. just aware of that. Grew up aware of that. Yeah.    [00:04:02] Miko Lee: And then what was your first memory of Bruce Lee?   [00:04:06] Jeff Chang: Ah, I don’t have a first memory. He was just part of the ether, you know what I mean? He was part of the   [00:04:10] Miko Lee: Ah, yeah.   [00:04:11] Jeff Chang: Yeah. He was part of the air. I think I came of age, after the generation, like my older cousins who were able to see Bruce in the theaters. We came up the next generation, we saw Bruce on tv. Return of the Dragon would come on and everybody would stop everything and just watch that. During the commercial breaks we’re jumping around and kicking each other and stuff like that. I mean that, that kind of thing, right?    [00:04:34] Miko Lee: Yeah, totally. When I was growing up, people would always ask me if I was related to Bruce Lee, because Lee, because that was like, right, yeah, Lee. Yeah. Yeah. There’s not a billion Lees’ in the world.    [00:04:44] Jeff Chang: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.    [00:04:45] Miko Lee: Yeah. So I get it and I try to explain to my daughters, and our kids are around the same age, the cultural phenomenon that he was, and it’s hard to explain it to this generation because there wasn’t really other Asian American representation than Bruce Lee when we were growing up.   [00:05:03] Jeff Chang: Yeah. Yeah. And now they have Alysa Liu, you know, they have eileen Gu, they have all of these different folks. So if you don’t like Alysa, you could like Eileen. Or if you don’t like, if you like Eileen, you don’t have to like Alysa. Right. Or you can like ’em both. They have choices.   [00:05:14] Miko Lee: You could like Chloe.    [00:05:16] Jeff Chang: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They like Chloe, right? There’s choices. Yeah. Like Chloe’s on the Olympic stand with two other Asians. It’s just wild. It’s a beautiful thing. and it’s not like the kind of reality that we grew up in. It’s true.    [00:05:29] Miko Lee: Yeah. So what made you decide to write this book? you’ve written many books about pop culture and around theory and around Americana, and what made you decide to write a book about Bruce Lee?    [00:05:41] Jeff Chang: So the book came to me actually, it was an Asian American editor back during a time, not so long ago, but a while ago, when there weren’t a lot of Asian American editors in the business. And he came to me and that was amazing in and of itself. And he said basically, Hey man, you did this book on hip hop. This is back in, the latter part of the two thousands. I wanna imagine I haven’t gone back and looked at the date. ’cause it, it actually hurts me to think about it. But he saw you did this book like. Do you think you could do a book on Bruce Lee? And I was like, yeah, I could do that. I was hyped to do that. Please. Because Yeah. ’cause Bruce was our hero. Yeah. Just like we were talking about. The most famous Asian American who’s ever lived. It took me a long time to get going and I gotta admit I lost the plot at some point. I just was like, what am I doing? There were books that came out, about Bruce in the interim. there was one other biography that had come out, in the late 2010s,    [00:06:37] Miko Lee: and I think I told you about one of the books. I think it’s that book that I read written by a white guy and I wrote about it in good reads because I read a lot and that’s how I keep track of the books I read. I don’t think about anybody else reading those reviews that I write? It’s like writing in a journal or something. Now I use story graph ‘ it’s amazing. Not commercial, but at the time I used Goodreads and the author wrote back to me, I think I told you this story.    [00:07:04] Jeff Chang: Yeah, yeah. Tell me. Tell, so what did you write and what did the author write back to you?   [00:07:08] Miko Lee: I wrote that I thought that this author did not understand what an icon Bruce was to the Asian American community, and it was written in a way that didn’t, grasp the whole complexity of what he meant to us. He wrote this really, mean note back to me about how he had Shannon, Bruce’s daughter’s support and he was the one that could tell the story. And I thought, whoa, I was just shocked. That was the first time. Since then, I’ve had many different authors write back to me, but that was like the first one and wrote back in a mean way. So anyways.    [00:07:39] Jeff Chang: Was it public or this was a private, A private email back to you.    [00:07:43] Miko Lee: I think it’s public. I don’t know. Have to go look. I was shook at the time. Like what?    [00:07:49] Jeff Chang: Wow. Okay.    [00:07:50] Miko Lee: Anyway, so when I heard you were writing a book, I said, okay, finally, finally. Yay.    [00:07:55] Jeff Chang: Hmm. Yeah. You know, and I’ll be honest, I, I had this sort of crisis of confidence. I was sort of like, you know, this is, okay, we’ll put it out there. ’cause you already went there. It’s Matthew Polly’s book, Bruce Lee Life. I read it, he had done amazing research. He had spoken to a lot of people. I thought I was supposed to do this kind of a book. Now there’s a particular kind of genre, that folks who are maybe in the industry recognize and, it’s called I’m putting scare quotes around this, like the definitive biography,    [00:08:27] Miko Lee: right.    [00:08:28] Jeff Chang: In this particular case, the definitive biography, because he’s a movie star s. Sort of coincides or converges with this other genre, which is the celebrity biography. I’m putting scare quotes around that too. So, the mission of a celebrity biographer is really to tell a story of, this celebrity. Is not as cool as you think they are. Like, their crap stinks. They cheated on their spouses. They like didn’t file their taxes, they kicked their dog, they said mean things to different people. That’s a celebrity biography. It’s basically to tarnish the star. and if not, then it’s sort of a hagiography, which is sort of a whole other kind of thing. And we don’t wanna do that as writers. We wanna approach the truth. But there’s sort of a certain kind of thing that comes into play, with Bruce. There’s a sort of genre of the take down of Bruce where it’s usually men that are writing this, and the men are usually like, well, Bruce was my hero when I was a kid, but now I’ve gotta take him down. You know what I mean? It’s, and so you see it over and over again and, you know, there’s a sort of a weird thing going on, especially I think with, white males who have loved Bruce Lee in the past feeling like they need to take him down.So let’s say    [00:09:50] Miko Lee: Quinton Tarantino.    [00:09:52] Jeff Chang: Okay, you said it. I didn’t, but I was gonna say like Albert Goldman, who was a journalist who famously wrote a take down of Elvis Presley.    [00:10:00] Miko Lee: Right.   [00:10:01] Jeff Chang: and did one of Bruce that was unbelievably racist. Now, I’m not saying that Matthew was trying to do this at all. I think that his scholarship and his work was really, really good. But I, I felt crowded out a little bit. You know, I felt like, gosh, I don’t know what there is to say? I was very aware that there were a lot of books that had been written about Bruce and that I was writing into or out of, or in opposition to a tradition.   [00:10:30] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:10:31] Jeff Chang: These are the Bruce. Lee Stories. and so at that particular point, in the late 2000 tens, I just said, what am I gonna do? And Lourdes, my partner, walked me up to the park and just tore into me like, what, you’re gonna give up now? You can’t give up now. You gotta do this, you have to. Who else is gonna do this? And I’m just feeling all that, Chinese Kanaka, firstborn, guilt, responsibility. she’s about the only person that I can take a tongue lashing like that from. We walk back the mile to the house and my head was between my legs and I was like, all right, I’ll do it. I’ll do it. But I didn’t know what I was gonna do to be completely real. I didn’t know what I was gonna do. So the other thing that was kind of happening at this particular point was I was noticing, and you and I both have, children who are now adults, but at that time they were younger. They were like coming into their own, they’re in their teens and that kind of thing, and that particular generation was coming up in some ways. Like we talked about, like they had all of these folks that they could look to.    [00:11:34] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:11:34] Jeff Chang: Right. you know, our kids have opportunities in media that we never had.   [00:11:39] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:11:39] Jeff Chang: We’ve had to break through in a lot of ways. And there was also, in a weird way, this sort of entropy around this notion of Asian America. Like young people who call themselves Asian American would also sit around and be like, what even is an Asian American? How do I relate to these other types of folks who are also classed as Asian Americans, or who describe themselves as Asian Americans as well. Like politically, culturally, the kind of food we eat, the way we dress, who we hang out with. Like all of the diversity that we’ve celebrated for so many years felt like entropy, I think, to them like this is, there’s no center to this anymore. Then the pandemic happened and the violence, Was one way of saying this is it’s the ice cube moment. This is what they think of you. You know what I mean? Yeah. And, and I think that was what galvanized, especially a lot of young people to find a new sense of purpose, a new sense of activism, a new sense of, how to be in the world And    [00:12:43] Miko Lee: for maybe some young folks who had never felt that they had experienced direct racism before, to suddenly see it really blatant in the community.    [00:12:52] Jeff Chang: Right. And, it was personal. It touched all of us. I know everyone has stories about how we were treated during the pandemic, and especially the women and especially, the queer folks. In a lot of ways it was paradigm shifting and it was paradigm shifting for me too, you know, so I’m writing about this guy who considers himself a martial artist.    [00:13:13] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:13:14] Jeff Chang: And he’s teaching people about self-defense.    [00:13:18] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:13:19] Jeff Chang: And in his career being accused of fomenting violence, like a lot of. Folks in hip hop have been over the years.    [00:13:27] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:13:28] Jeff Chang: I’m suddenly like looking at this in a completely different light. What does it mean to think about self-defense and violence and training to be a warrior, right? I have a lot of folks who are in the military. My mom worked for the police department, like what does that mean? For somebody like me who’s, essentially anti militarist, who has critiques of the police, as we all should. who’s a deep supporter of Black Lives Matter, like how do we think about what it means to, to be a warrior, and also to understand like the dignity, right in wanting to be a protector.    [00:14:04] Miko Lee: Right.    [00:14:05] Jeff Chang: Right. And to, uplift what that means, but to kind of think about all of these existential questions and then at the same time to see Bruce popping back up on our walls and murals and popping up on our feeds as a symbol, right. Of pride. Especially during this particular period, near us in the bay, like in San Francisco, Chinatown or Oakland Chinatown, young people bringing back the image of Bruce as a symbol of pride and also this sort of cry for like, can you see us? This sort of underlying desire to find solidarity. All of this mixed up with this like identity crisis that is now taking a different type of turn. So it was a lot to think about and suddenly I was just like, oh, oh, oh, wait a minute. Maybe that’s what I’m supposed to write about. So the book became, about Bruce, but also about Bruce as an Asian American and about him kind of traveling parallel to the rise of the Asian American movement.    [00:15:04] Miko Lee: Yeah, I think it’s so powerful that way, that it does tell this whole Asian American history for folks that might not know from, the very beginning of our, coming from the exclusion act to I hotel, to Vincent Chin and not just like politically, but then also cinematically because he crossed over so many barriers for us. So we’re also getting Asian American cinema history with Anna May Wong and Sessue Hayakawa, and even the Hong Kong industry. So I love how you combined all these different elements. It’s such a wonderful way to look at that. And I’m wondering what made you decide to organize the book into these three categories of water, mirror, echo.   [00:15:44] Jeff Chang: The line came first, Bruce’s famous. Epigraph is, be water my friend, and, me being the nerd that I am, I wanted to trace the origins of that and found it pretty quickly, in a sort of, Daoist type of text. called the leads and the full, Section that, had influenced Bruce so much was moving be like water, still be like a mirror, respond like an echo. This is a line that actually resonates through Zen Buddhism as well. It was one of those things where when I first read it in Bruce’s Dao Jeet Kun Do, I fell outta my chair. It was amazing. It blew me away. We’d all heard “be water.” We’d heard athletes say it. we’d heard, business leaders, say, we saw the activists in Hong Kong, using it, in the streets. and. Yet to see all of this together was even deeper. That was a window into wow. We think of Bruce as the great popularizer of martial arts. Bruce, he’s not recognized as the great popularizer of Asian philosophy, in a lot of ways. It happened during this particular period during the sixties where, views of Asians and Asian Americans were beginning to shift dramatically, opening up in a lot of ways. So we had this phrase, my editor, Akia Clark, and I. She was like, all right, “how are you gonna organize this Jeff?” I was like, I don’t know, help me. And she’s like, all right, there’s a water, there’s a mirror, there’s an echo here. And it actually tracks to his life and the arc of his story and I was like, “oh, wow. Yeah.” So I can’t take any credit. I have to give it to my editor, who is,    [00:17:24] Miko Lee: that’s a good editor.    [00:17:25] Jeff Chang: Amazing. Yo, she was amazing. Rekia was like, I signed you because, I grew up and the only Asian I knew was Bruce Lee. She grew up in largely black communities. She was like, I need to know more. , I really want to hear your take on this. And, and So it was a, an incredible collaboration in that way because it was the type of here’s where we meet. She was literally giving me free reign to be able to tell me a story. Tell me why we’re meeting here. Right. Why were we meeting through Bruce? That ended up giving me so much confidence and focus after I’d had, all of these years of being in the woods and, uh, what am I gonna do? And then, Lourdes is trying to shake me up That’s kind of how it,    [00:18:09] Miko Lee: it took that time, that time to simmer, and your creative juices to be able to come up with this.    [00:18:15] Jeff Chang: Yeah. Yeah. It didn’t feel. Like it at the time, but looking back now, I’m not the fastest, ho nu in the water.    [00:18:22] Miko Lee: Because you talked a little bit about confidence and how much Bruce shared about, Asian philosophy, which I think is really true. I wonder if you could speak a little bit more about his sense of confidence, both in himself, and then a sense of destiny, like the mark that he was gonna leave on the planet.    [00:18:38] Jeff Chang: It’s very interesting to me because I think that this has been kind of, a part of the Bruce Lee legend. It was like he was born for a purpose. I was going through his papers and talking to, his, surviving family members and friends, like it was all improv.    [00:18:55] Miko Lee: Really him saying all those things was improv. What was all improv?    [00:18:59] Jeff Chang: Yeah. I think part of it, I think, well, maybe it wasn’t an all improv, certainly he was driven.   [00:19:04] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:19:04] Jeff Chang: He was incredibly ambitious and he was incredibly driven and he knew where he wanted to go. Absolutely 2000%, I think he entered this journey, like all of us in our journeys, you know, like we’re maybe packed for the journey, but we might find along the way that we don’t have what we need. I was attuned to the points where that narrative would break down. To all of the vulnerabilities that he was feeling in different moments. and especially because I got to talk to folks, who knew him, who maybe hadn’t necessarily been interviewed in like, the years. His very close Asian American friends, the folks who knew him, off the martial arts training floor. the folks who thought he was weird and kind of corny, folks at UW. All of these folks knew him at the University of Washington. And the, the common thing was, this guy’s goofy. He’s just had a one track mind. Like, he just wants to like show us like. Like Gung fu things all the time. Like who does that?    [00:20:08] Miko Lee: Like Bruce stop already. We heard that.    [00:20:10] Jeff Chang: right, right. Like punch me like, you want me to punch you? That was funny. You know, I was just, and that was sort of also a mind shift, you know, like    [00:20:19] Miko Lee: Yeah.   [00:20:19] Jeff Chang: It was like, oh, so there was a time before    [00:20:21] Miko Lee: he was revered,    [00:20:22] Jeff Chang: the cool guy. Yeah, before he was the cool guy. Then before he was the guy that was like super suave and like all the, whatever all the ladies wanted and all the guys wanted to be like, that’s been the Bruce narrative. So I was attuned to those parts and what strikes me is how much at the end he stuck to his guns. Like folks will read this in the last section of the book, and I don’t want to give it away, but this is when Destiny kicks in and Bruce rises to the top and he makes another dragon. He becomes this global star and it was meant to happen. And I was like, no. He was actually fighting every step of the way. Like every day of his life. He felt like this thing was gonna fall apart. At one time, he boycotted his own movie because they weren’t giving him what he wanted. Some of his closest friends say the real thing that killed him. People talk about the coroner’s report conspiracy, like evil spirits that, but what he really did was like sacrifice himself in a way. That’s how a lot of his friends talk about it, you know? From a sense of this deep personal loss of somebody whom they loved so much and who was like there one day and suddenly gone the next, And so, you know, to deal too with that, question of the melancholia that comes with what we experience when we’re the survivors of someone we love, who suffers a premature death. In that regard, like I feel like the last part of the book too was deeply informed by. All of the stuff that’s come before, with the Black Lives Matter movement. You know, and understanding, that these came from deep sources of grief and mourning and loss. Thinking about what it’s meant for Asian Americans to have to look at two generations before we get to the things that Bruce was fighting for representationally    [00:22:14] Miko Lee: Yeah.    [00:22:14] Jeff Chang: You know, before we can get to everything everywhere, all at once. And Michelle Yeoh, receiving the Oscar for that. Like it took two generations. It took Brandon passing away one generation after his father, and then it took a whole bunch of other work that, a lot of folks needed to do in order for us to be able to. Get the kinds of representations that we hoped that we might see after, another dragon. and that, something that, has produced a melancholia in us, you know?    [00:22:48] Miko Lee: Yeah. Yeah.    [00:22:49] Jeff Chang: So.    [00:22:50] Miko Lee: You are talking a little bit about the people that you interviewed and there’s so many clearly that you did, and when I was reading it, the backstory of Taki, that was when I thought, oh, this is an Asian American author. I mean, I know you, but it like, including that whole backstory I thought was so powerful and actually helped to build out the story of who he is, who his friends were and how he worked with them. I’m wondering if there’s an interview that you didn’t get.    [00:23:14] Jeff Chang: So many. So many.    [00:23:16] Miko Lee: Oh really?    [00:23:17] Jeff Chang: Yeah. I mean, I haven’t gone back to look at the original contract and the date because so many people passed away. I got started on this, I had three other books that I had to complete from my, publisher at the time this book was signed out of, those contracts. I had had a full-time job then, and then when the, pandemic and BLM sort of reached that inflection point, it was a much more than full-time job. I didn’t have time to be able to actually devote the book that I really needed to. I did research over a very long course of time. I did interviews over a very long course of time, but I started the interviews too late, so I couldn’t interview Taki.    [00:23:54] Miko Lee: oh wow. Okay.    [00:23:55] Jeff Chang: I couldn’t, yeah. Taki, was, alive. He lived to a very old age, but Alzheimer’s. Um,    [00:24:01] Miko Lee: oh wow.    [00:24:02] Jeff Chang: Took him, you know? By the time I started reaching out, it was a little bit like too late. I spoke to his son instead at great length. and a lot of other folks around, him. There wasn’t just one, there were a million interviews. I didn’t get. Taki, I didn’t interview Jesse Glover. I would’ve loved to have interviewed some of his friends From Hong Kong, but we couldn’t access them because of the pandemic. I had an amazing researcher on the ground, Winnie Fu who, did a lot of amazing work there and was able to source a lot of stuff for us. There was so many people, and even now, like I was just up in Seattle for the unveiling of the Bruce Lee postage stamp, and I got to meet a friend of his from high school, and so I’m gonna sit down. I’ve been talking with Shannon’s, cousin, Bruce’s niece who has been keeping the genealogies of the family. We’ve been talking a lot. I’m gonna go back and interview her, and so hopefully maybe by the time the paperback edition comes around, I might be able to have some new information that I might be able to throw in in that edition.    [00:25:03] Miko Lee: Yeah. What surprised you most about the research?    [00:25:06] Jeff Chang: I think that Bruce was vulnerable. He felt very lonely a lot of the time. he had set himself out like this huge impossible dream in some ways. he knew his destination. He had no idea how he was gonna get there. That’s where I talk about it was all improv. and at different points he despaired. I don’t know if these folks are really seeing me, I don’t think they really understand me. After the Green Hornet, he couldn’t get a job. That he felt was befitting him, you know? So he’s taking whatever work he can get. He’s working as a fight choreographer for Nancy Kwan. And, just doing what he can and he’s relying upon people to put him on. He’s doing Gung FU training of a lot of the Hollywood top brass. So he can reach out to them, but even they don’t believe in him. They don’t believe in him like that. That’s why he decides he has to leave. But it takes him literally four years to realize, oh, they don’t see me as a main character. They don’t see me the way I see myself. Yeah. So I gotta go. Even then he’s still trying to get on the TV show, Kung fu. When that door slams and they cast David Carradine yellow face, he’s like, oh, that, and that’s when the ice cube moment really sets in for him. Like, that’s how they see me. That’s how they really understand me. After that, he’s fighting this battle to try to get back to Hollywood. That’s, one of the things he feels like he really wants to do. his thought is that I need to build up as much capital as I possibly can in order to be able to negotiate from a point of, strength. It’s just very hip hop. It’s very wutang clan. He’s able to kind of get there. But he’s still gotta fight these battles at the end. They just wanted him to shut up and kick. They gave him a black CoStar and a white CoStar because they were afraid that an Asian lead wouldn’t make it. They wanted to name the movie Hans Island. Not Enter the Dragon because, Oriental villains were easier to understand than an Asian American male lead. So    [00:27:00] Miko Lee: that’s such a horrible title too.    [00:27:02] Jeff Chang: Oh my God. How can you imagine we would not be talking about Hans Island.    [00:27:07] Miko Lee: I don’t know how they thought that was a good idea.    [00:27:10] Jeff Chang: Yeah, it’s true.    [00:27:11] Miko Lee: Is there anything else that you would like your audiences that to understand about Bruce Lee?    [00:27:16] Jeff Chang: What I tried to do is portray him in the context that he actually lived in, We’ve got the legend of Bruce, we’ve got the stories, of Bruce that have kind of burnished the legend. What I tried to do was to try to put him back as a human being, as a young person walking through Hong Kong streets and the streets of China, you know, down Grant and then, down King Street in Seattle. making it up to the studios, in Hollywood. and what that meant, for him to, actually accomplish all this kind of stuff. Because when we take away the legend, and this is one of the things I was worried about too, back in the late 2000 tens when I was like, I don’t know what I’m gonna write. When you take away the legend. I was worried that people were gonna be like, oh, you just want to drag down this guy? And you’re like the guy that’s just throwing water on our hero. But what I’m, really understanding now is. when you look back at what he went through and what he overcame, he actually becomes even more heroic, to all of us. He wasn’t a perfect person. but I think he remains a hero like more than a half century after his passing because of the things that he did.    [00:28:28] Miko Lee: I think that’s right and I think you do an amazing job in the book of incorporating this powerful Asian American history and putting, his experience in a time and place that helps the broader world understand what an icon he is and remains. And I really appreciate you for writing this book and taking this time and the amount of energy it took to Percolate really pays off.    [00:28:52] Jeff Chang: Thanks so much. I so appreciate you.   [00:28:55] Miko Lee: So I’m gonna be interviewing NAKASEC on their new study on Asian American Men in the Manosphere. Are you familiar about this?   [00:29:02] Jeff Chang: Oh, I can’t wait to read this. I cannot wait to read this. It’s so,    [00:29:06] Miko Lee: do you know about this? No. To this report.    [00:29:08] Jeff Chang: I didn’t know about it. I didn’t know about it. I’m, I’m glad somebody’s doing it.    [00:29:11] Miko Lee: Yeah. So they did a whole survey and they found that there is a lot of Asian American men that are part of the manosphere. Mm-hmm. And I’m wondering for you, who’s written about Asian American male identity, if you have thoughts about this?    [00:29:26] Jeff Chang: So many thoughts. I was very much thinking about the Asian American manosphere as I was writing this book, because these are my cousins, these are my friends, these are, folks who I’ve sparred with.   [00:29:39] Miko Lee: Right.   [00:29:40] Jeff Chang: These are conversations I’m having with folks, at the bar over a meal. I’m really interested in seeing how we’re able to understand what the appeal of the far right has been around questions, of masculinity in this moment and to win these folks back. I’ve also seen on the flip side, shifts and changes, around, how Asian American masculinity is displayed sea on social media in this era of a crackdown in immigration.    [00:30:19] Miko Lee: Yeah.    [00:30:20] Jeff Chang: We really do need solidarity. We really do identify with, what Latinos, are going through. What I worry about is that, the Asian American left, our first in instinct would be just to be like, ah, I can’t talk to them. it’s Gonna like upset me too much. I can’t deal with this. Somebody has to,, because that, those are our folks and we’ve lost them over the last, five years or so and we’ve gotta get ’em back.   [00:30:45] Miko Lee: And are there folks that you know of that are working specifically on ways to pull this community back?    [00:30:50] Jeff Chang: I imagine that there’s a lot of work on the ground that’s happening. because this is the, world that I’m in, I look to the folks who are, doing podcasts or doing social media work and, who are, often, men who. Are, you know, kind of like me, like troubled by this development and trying to find a way to speak to their folks as well. I’m monitoring that. I’m not, deep within it, but, like I said, I wrote this book, understanding that, that particular subset of our community. those are the folks that, are the Bruce Lee fans.    [00:31:22] Miko Lee: Yeah.    [00:31:23] Jeff Chang: and are the folks who are, involved in, mixed martial arts and, involved in, athletics and, all these other kinds of things. And, and they’re not too far away.    [00:31:33] Miko Lee: Yeah. It feels like there’s a disconnect between that kind of loving of Bruce Lee and that world, and interaction with politics, interaction with the current events and how that’s impacting them and their families.    [00:31:48] Jeff Chang: Well, I think it’s. Yeah. I put that down to the fragmentation of the way that we receive media.    [00:31:54] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:31:55] Jeff Chang: You know, and also, of course, the ways in which social media is geared towards the extremes. The way it’s geared towards the extremes and towards lifting up the. Loudest crudest voices sometimes. Mm-hmm. That’s exactly where the manosphere originates from. Right? That’s where it    [00:32:15] Miko Lee: lives.    [00:32:15] Jeff Chang: Yeah. That’s where it lives, is inside that pocket. It’s about again, trying to get inside of that and what’s causing that. What’s the melancholia that’s behind that? What is generating this rage, this fury, and being able to channel that, fury, that anger into, ways that will actually help not just all of us, but specifically them.    [00:32:39] Miko Lee: Yeah.    [00:32:40] Jeff Chang: That’s an organizing problem that we have to take up.   [00:32:43] Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing. I’m gonna send you the research, the report so you can read it and,    [00:32:48] Jeff Chang: uh, I can’t wait to break this open. Oh,    [00:32:52] Miko Lee: okay. I appreciate you. Thanks so much.   [00:32:54] Jeff Chang: Thank you.   [00:32:55] Miko Lee: Next up I speak with Rachel Kelzer, the communications director for NAKASEC, about their new study of Asian American men and the manosphere.Welcome Rachel Koelzer, communications Director for NAKASEC. Welcome to Apex Express.    [00:33:12] Rachel Koelzer: Hi. Thank you so much for having me today.    [00:33:15] Miko Lee: Can you first explain for our audience, your organization that you work with NAKASEC    [00:33:19] Rachel Koelzer: So NAKASEC is short for the National Korean American Service and Education Consortium. We are a national network of five affiliated organizations in six states.   [00:33:32] Miko Lee: Thank you. I wanna start with the question I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   [00:33:41] Rachel Koelzer: This is a great question. My people are the dreamers. They are the community rooted, change makers who believe that we are accountable and responsible to each other. For our collective wellbeing, our collective liberation, and our collective joy and care for each other. My people are also Korean adoptees, part of the Asian diaspora, and people who have survived challenges of life and still seek joy and to thrive.   [00:34:23] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for sharing. Through your work at NAKASEC, you recently released this report with a big old title, Asian Men, the Manosphere and Social Media, an Inflection Point for Asian American Advocacy and American Democracy. Wow. Can you first talk about what inspired this study?   [00:34:43] Rachel Koelzer: I became aware that there was this ongoing trend and challenge that we were having of not reaching young Asian men. Our followers were predominantly non men. Based on gender and significantly more women following us. Something like 70 30, 80 20. I talked with other organizations who also do advocacy and community based work who also faced similar challenges. I just wondered why. What is it that is preventing us from effectively reaching this large portion of our community that we serve? So from there we went and partnered with Dr. Tom Wong, and really started to dive into exploring the reasons behind it.    [00:35:34] Miko Lee: So let’s back up for a second. Can you explain for our audience what the manosphere is?    [00:35:40] Rachel Koelzer: The manosphere in kind of simplified terms, it’s a loosely connected network, of online communities, influencers and content creators who focus on men’s issues, masculinity, dating, health and fitness, financial wealth, and gender dynamics. It includes this wide spectrum of content, that range from like the more everyday fitness self-help. To more controversial topics, like anti-feminism, traditional gender roles and critiques of modern women in society. The common thread across these, loosely connected, communities and spaces is this underlying thread of traditional gender norms and expectations.    [00:36:30] Miko Lee: So is the manosphere inherently misogynistic?    [00:36:34] Rachel Koelzer: Yes.    [00:36:35] Miko Lee: Well that was a really quick response. Yes. No question.    [00:36:38] Rachel Koelzer: [Laughter] I being real here, you know? Yeah. It is.    [00:36:46] Miko Lee: Okay.    [00:36:46] Rachel Koelzer: So within the broader manosphere, there’s also men’s rights activists. Some more like toxic masculine type views. There is a little bit of a range, but yes, inherently, there’s deep rooted misogyny.   [00:36:58] Miko Lee: So how did you find people for your Study were they self-described people that participated in the manosphere?   [00:37:06] Rachel Koelzer: We partnered with Dr. Tom Wong, who is at the University of California, San Diego to conduct this survey. He used the voter file. They are self-identified Asian men and we set the parameters to be between the ages of 18 to 45. They identified across political ideology, across political party, and started with more general questions around their social media use. What platforms were they on? What, were the reasons that they were on social media. Who did they follow? To get a baseline understanding of where and what they’re consuming. We know that they’re online. There were questions about engagement with the manosphere.   [00:37:52] Miko Lee: What did this study reveal? What was surprising to you?    [00:37:57] Rachel Koelzer: What was really shocking is that one in five young Asian men are regularly engaging with manosphere content. That’s 20% one in five.   [00:38:07] Miko Lee: That’s a huge number.    [00:38:08] Rachel Koelzer: It’s a huge number. Yeah. They’re engaging with this content that is, starting off pretty innocuous like, you want to look better, you want to feel better, you want to have better relationships. What’s being embedded in that to varying degrees of, subtlety are these values of more traditional expectations and roles. It’s alarming that this that this many young Asian men are regularly engaging with it. We defined engaging, as, commenting, following, sharing. There were questions about how often they’re seeing it across their feed, whether or not they’re looking for it or not. We found that 35% of young Asian men are encountering manosphere content on their social media feeds several times a week.   [00:39:00] Miko Lee: Are they identifying it as manosphere content?    [00:39:04] Rachel Koelzer: They identified it, yes. In the survey we did provide a definition. Beforehand of what the manosphere was, and so anything within that would have to fall under this category.   [00:39:17] Miko Lee: Are most of those influencers and content creators, Asian American men also?    [00:39:23] Rachel Koelzer: That’s a really good question. When both Dr. Wong and our team, NAKASEC team, were doing some research there, we didn’t actually come across when we were looking at like the bigger names, right? Tens of thousands, upwards of millions followers. We didn’t really come across many of those large followers that are Asian men. The men that are perpetuating it, regardless of their race or ethnic background. I think what that points to, you mentioned white supremacy earlier, but there’s this idea and value that’s perpetuated of colorblindness. And so in this space, the gender kind of supersedes the race. What was really curious is, later on in the study we also asked, about early childhood experiences and lessons, from the adults in their lives around masculine values, around showing and expressing emotions, and around representation of asian men in the media. A large portion agreed that the overall representation of Asian men is harmful. We know for those of us who have been interrogating our experiences in the world for a while. We know that Asians and Asian men in particular, we’re stereotyped, we’re troped in a lot of ways, right, of these feminine, unattractive, nerdy, geeky, or you’ve got the other side, you’ve got the Bruce Lees, you’ve got the Jackie Chans, right? There’s a flattening that happens and . I think that is where the manosphere is dangerous and potentially even more appealing to communities who feel that they’ve been overlooked and undervalued, because it offers answers and those answers are really harmful to other communities, but they’re still providing answers.   [00:41:28] Miko Lee: Can we speak a little bit more about the perceptions of Asian Americans in the media There’s the stereotypes around women being either the dragon woman or the sexual exotic kind of play toy. Asian men, as you were pointing out, it’s either the kung fu guy or the nerdy guy or the effeminate guy. Right. There’s like not that much distinction. Is that your perception as well?    [00:41:57] Rachel Koelzer: Yes. I think there’s been, even from when I was a child and growing up, over the past 30 years, there’s been, improvements. But I think overall yes.   [00:42:08] Miko Lee: When I grew up, the only images were movies and television, and there just was not that much. So we did have those stereotype visions, but it was so limited in scope and content. There just was not as much content. Now it’s everywhere. There’s content in your phone, there’s all these different social media apps, there’s all these different channels you can watch. I’m wondering how that has impacted Asian Americans men’s perspectives on how they see themselves and if that. Just looking at social media and the manosphere and how that impacted, the reason why you did the study and the outcomes of the study.   [00:42:46] Rachel Koelzer: The study showed that 26.7% of the men who were surveyed feel that Asian men are portrayed favorably in social media. That’s actually still a very low percentage. 71.6% agree that Asian men are often underrepresented or stereotyped in media and popular culture. Even though yes, there’s still greater representation, that there’s still the portrayals and the quality and caliber or what that representation actually is, or how it’s developed is still significantly lacking. What the manosphere offers, one, it offers answers as to how you might get away from, from those, right? You might be able to get out of that, which is to be this hyper quote unquote, masculine, dominating, character. It points the blame directly away from systems like patriarchy and white supremacy. It doesn’t really interrogate what internalized misogyny, internalized racism, looks like and is doing. It’s saying. You know what the problem is actually that women are becoming too independent. The problem is that, men are becoming too effeminate, and so there’s this combination of race blindness and naming another villain in a way that punches down.   [00:44:32] It’s a combination of looking for genuine insight and information to better understand their experiences and they’re finding answers, but the quality of those answers and the ways that they’re getting pushed to those are very problematic, very concerning. Not just for what that means for women in queer rights and immigrant rights and marginalized communities rights. These kinds of values that are being espoused and normalized. But what that means for, , how someone starts to view themselves and, their role in the world and the impact that that has on the systems, and structures of our society.    [00:45:13] Miko Lee: There’s so many interesting things that you said. I heard you say the men are finding a sense of belonging in the manosphere, and they’re getting answers and the answers being right wing propaganda, which is being fed to them. Is that right?   [00:45:26] Rachel Koelzer: Yeah, I think that’s right. The problem is the quality of the answers that they’re receiving. The values that are embedded within that, whether or not they’re being explicitly named, it’s not. There are, again, if you go further, deeper, there are folks that are very proud to be part of the manosphere. That is a known and a shared identity as far as like we are part of the manosphere.Then there are those, I think Joe Rogan himself is like, I’m not part of that, but if you listen to his content and his messages, right? There’s a lot of those traditional right wing, very violent and misogynistic roots that are coming out in there.   [00:46:13] It starts off very innocuously looking for answers, looking to better understand your life, your experiences, and what you can do about it. That’s innocuous enough. Right. And there’s even, like, there’s a lot to be said about that kind of,, what’s the word I’m trying to think of,, initiative, right? To better understand and seek resources and things. But unfortunately through a combination of the algorithm. Through investments into these kinds of content creators, , and spaces we’re seeing that those proliferating a lot more. And so whether or not young Asian men are intentionally seeking this type of content, they’re being fed it regularly.   [00:46:54] Miko Lee: I also heard you this comment about race blindness. I get that it because it’s like men, men, men we’re men and we’re bounding together. But race blindness feels like a rube, if you will, for, white supremacy and misogyny. It’s this way of saying we are all one, but very much targeting, specific folks that are not in positions of power and control.   [00:47:21] Rachel Koelzer: Yeah, absolutely. It flattens and erases the experiences of people who have been marginalized through, our laws, our policies, and it stops the need. It stops the self-reflection and interrogation too that is asked of us otherwise, which is to reflect on what power do I hold and what is my responsibility with that power, whether it’s, having more privilege because I’m a citizen. Having privilege because you are a man. Even if you are also, historically and presently marginalized because of your race as an Asian person, it reduces that depth and again, that responsibility for self-reflection and interrogation.   [00:48:22] Miko Lee: So given all that, your report says this is a warning sign, which clearly it is and an opportunity. I wonder if you could talk a bit more about what is the opportunity here as we’re in this time of great change. Great revolution, the year of the fire horse. Talk about how we can actively disrupt that pipeline to radical extremism.    [00:48:46] Rachel Koelzer: It’s an important question and it’s an important conversation that we need to have. There needs to be an awareness and an understanding of what it is that, is threatening the health and wellbeing of our community and of our country. What this study showed is we’re at an inflection point. The percentages, the numbers, we’re not so far down the rabbit hole, but we’re like right on the edge. We’re like at this tipping point, and so intervention is necessary now. This is a great opportunity for organizations, for community leaders to be having these conversations. To be engaging in political education with their community members to be, educating and informing and connecting with members of their community, particularly young Asian men. And it’s an opportunity for these in-person spaces and these digital spaces to be countering the manosphere with our own answers.   [00:49:51] I think that’s one of the biggest things, especially when we’re talking about a digital space, to be investing in content creators, to be investing in artists, to be investing in doing the work of putting out our own answers and solutions. Explanations and analysis of what is happening. It’s a call to action and an opportunity for funders, donors for people who have the ability, to put money behind these kinds of spaces online. There’s just this significant disparate investment. It’s an opportunity to be really investing in community, really investing in recreating spaces, building out spaces, I’m thinking particularly again, community-based organizations who can be understanding what the risks and threats are and understanding their communities where they are, and not necessarily adding to, but, with this threat in mind, how does that inform the spaces that you’re creating or the strategies that you are engaging?Whether it’s online or in person.   [00:51:13] Miko Lee: We need to gather up our brothers, our nephews, our uncles, gather ’em all up, talk about our real, Asian American history of resistance, our power, our ability to move forward, connect with that in person, pull them outta the manosphere, connect all together so that we could move forward as a community in solidarity with each other.   [00:51:37] Rachel Koelzer: Absolutely. There’s opportunities across the board regardless, of where your particular position is. Even if you’re not a part of a community organization or you’re a teacher, a parent. One of the things that also came up in this study was that across ideologies, across the political spectrum and across age groups, there was a significant number. It was like close to 70 or over 70% had shared experiences, of being discouraged from showing emotions, from being, from seeing, modeled from the men in their lives, examples of stoicism. Of, more traditional masculinity, more traditional gender norms. And so there is this also aspect of, yeah, bringing in folks, bringing in our nephews, our brothers, our cousins, our friends, our uncles, and a reflection upon what can we do to be, raising our next generations, our current and our next generations, to value themselves and those around them who are different. To be able to express emotions, be able to have deep, reciprocal relationships, , and to have respect and understand what it means to reflect on one’s privilege that comes as a result of, an identity in this very hierarchical world, whether it’s, as a man under patriarchy or white, under white supremacy. These are skills that can be taught and can be learned. I think that this is also an opportunity to be reflecting on how we as a society understanding these    [00:53:33] Miko Lee: Well, Rachel Koelzer, thank you so much for joining me and sharing about your report. How can people find out more about your work?   [00:53:42] Rachel Koelzer: Thank you so much for having me. You can follow NAKASEC on most social media platforms. Visit our website. We’ve got tons of resources and information there and check out our local affiliates. You can find out more about them on our website and on our socials. If you are, you know, in the area, would love to see you.    [00:54:01] Miko Lee: Thank you so much.    [00:54:03] Rachel Koelzer: Thank you.   [00:54:04] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for joining us. Just a note that Apex Express will be off air for fundrive until May 28th, but we wanna acknowledge that May is Asian American, native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander Heritage Month, and there are film festivals and cultural events happening all around the country that celebrate our diverse experiences. One Bay Area one to note is CAAMFEST. It’s back! The center of Asian American media returns for its 44th year and its festival from May 7th through the 10th is at the Kabuki Theater, a MC in San Francisco with an amazing program of impressive filmmakers. Check it out, maybe I’ll see you there and happy AANHPI month. Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night..    The post APEX Express – 4.30.26 – Bruce Lee and the Manosphere appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 4.23.26 – Nurses of The Pitt 23.04.2026 59мин

  APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight, host Isabel Li speaks with actresses Amielynn Abellera and Kristin Villanueva, who respectively play Nurse Perlah and Nurse Princess on the HBO Max medical drama, The Pitt. Abellera and Villanueva talk about their Filipino heritage and backgrounds and how they represent Filipina healthcare professionals on the show. See also: Filipinos on the Frontline Amielynn Abellera: Instagram Kristin Villanueva: Instagram Transcript [00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.  00:00:52 Isabel Li  Thank you for tuning in to Apex Express. Last Thursday, season 2 of the HBO Max medical drama The Pitt released its season 2 finale, including a hectic season following medical professionals in the emergency room and giving a realistic depiction of real-world issues in hospitals. I’m Isabel Li, one of the hosts here on APEX Express, and I’m so honored to be joined by two members of that cast tonight who play the two Filipina nurses on The Pitt. They were recently awarded the Actor Award for Outstanding Performance by an Ensemble in a Drama Series.  00:01:28 Isabel Li  First, let’s hear from actress Amielynn Abellera, who plays Nurse Perla, a Muslim Filipina nurse on the show.  00:01:36 Isabel Li  Hi Amielynn, what an honor it is to be speaking to you today. Welcome to Apex Express.  00:01:41 Amielynn Abellera  Thank you. Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be speaking with you, too.  00:01:45 Isabel Li  So many of our listeners might know you from the HBO Max show, The Pitt, which I have so very much enjoyed. This is actually the first medical show that I have watched, and I really, really admire, like, all of the ensemble casts and, you know, everything coming to life. And you play the Muslim Filipina nurse, Perlah Alawi. We’ll talk more about your performance and your character in a little bit, but first, this is a question that I ask all my guests: Can you tell us, how do you identify? And is there a story that you think really encapsulates your identity?  00:02:17 Amielynn Abellera  Gosh, I identify as Amielynn Dumac Abellera. She, her, hers. I’m a Filipino American, daughter of two immigrants. And I’m so thrilled and happy to be talking to you and to sharing my experience of my life.  00:02:42 Isabel Li  Absolutely. Of course, The Pitt is a medical show. And is it true that you come from a medical background yourself? Like I heard that you were a psychobiology major in undergrad.  00:02:51 Amielynn Abellera  Yeah, I was pursuing medicine for a long time. I studied pre-med in undergrad at Santa Clara University, majoring in psychobiology, which is psychology with basically a minor in biology. I really wanted to get into neuroscience and or be an oncologist. And I was pursuing that all the way till I graduated and applying to medical school and getting interviews. But ever since I was a kid, for as long as I can remember, I was really also passionate about acting and theater and film and television and being on stage. But it was really just seen as a hobby in my mind and in sort of my environment’s mind. I never really prioritized it as a career, and it was never seen as a possible career. Um, so I just had it on the back burner. And, you know, I was getting, getting closer and closer to medical school and getting more and more anxious that I would regret not pursuing acting. And so sort of after waffling for many years, I decided to audition for a master’s in fine arts and acting. And that was because I didn’t really have any formal training in acting. I didn’t study it in undergrad or, you know, in my younger years. It was just all through life experience and being in plays and art and everything like that. And so I thought if I get into one of these programs, maybe that means I have something to offer. And I was going to take that as the sign that I needed to give myself a chance. And so I got into two programs, and I was thrilled. And I moved to LA to attend the University of Southern California’s MFA program. And the rest is history. Here I am.  00:04:47 Isabel Li  Wow. How does being a former pre-med influence your current role as a nurse on the show? Do you remember any like terms from science classes that you’re like, oh, wow, I remember that in those lines.  00:05:00 Amielynn Abellera  Yeah, yeah, totally. And you know, I spent a lot of time in hospitals and clinics and my dad is a former family practitioner. He had his own medical practice and my mom is a nurse practitioner and she worked in the CCU in the hospital for many years. So I was really familiar with how nurses interacted with patients and hearing the terminology and the medical language a lot.  So it is a cool throwback and always a really, I love how it’s so familiar to me ’cause it’s, I still have to work at it quite a bit when, you know, when it’s all coming at me and I have to have it down for when we’re filming, but I’m not as, as intimidated by it as I probably would be if I didn’t have a background.  00:05:50 Isabel Li  And out of curiosity, when you got the audition for the pit, did you have to sort of immerse yourself back into that realm of science and that medical background in order to bring out that character when you were  first being introduced to Nurse Perlah?  00:06:04 Amielynn Abellera  Yeah, a little bit. And I feel that with any role, you kind of, before you go in for the audition or even when you’re now filming or you have a part, you just have to kind of get into that world, obviously and really put yourself in the actual experience of what this person’s going through. And it did help me to be able to use my imagination so vividly from my previous experience of being in an OR and being in a hospital.  I remember when I was doing an internship when I was sort of in the break between graduating undergrad and pursuing medical school, I remember watching a C-section. And I remember — I remember the doctors talking, the surgeons talking, the anesthetic going in, the blood everywhere, the scalpels, the blood pressures, the oxymeter dropping. So, it really — I think back to the real-life fear that I had in all of those those procedures and I just, you know, bring it to Nurse Perlah.  00:07:16 Isabel Li  It’s incredible. I want to start off by talking about, for Nurse Perlah specifically, that Perlah’s identity is a Filipina and a Muslim nurse.  What did you do to prepare for a role that is so specific in terms of these cultural representations?  00:07:33 Amielynn Abellera  Sure. Thank you for asking that. I am thrilled that Perlah is on television. She is a Filipino American Muslim woman nurse. And I have never seen that. And it’s just rarely ever seen on mainstream media. So, in preparing for it, I mean, truly, I had two weeks before we started filming by the time I got the role. And it was go time already. So I didn’t have a ton of time, but I did my best to sort of deep dive into learning about the Muslim faith, trying to reach out to different Filipino American Muslims in my community to kind of just hear their experience. And, you know, I quickly learned that it would be impossible for me to sort of understand the full experience completely. And so I just kind of, I realized that the only question that I needed to answer for myself going into filming as Perlah was, is there anything about the Muslim way of life that would influence or adjust or be a part of their nursing or would it shift it at all? And or how would it affect their job?  And, you know, after talking to several Filipino American Muslim nurses, there, there wasn’t anything that it would do to either to shift or do anything to get in the way of their patient care. They are, it’s still their priority just to care relentlessly for this patient and have as much empathy as possible. And to be honest, I’m still learning as I go along with playing Perlah and as scripts come in and I still ask a lot of questions of how would Perlah specifically understand this procedure or understand this text or understand what she’s doing and just keep asking questions.  00:09:30 Isabel Li  And the majority of The Pitt itself takes place on a hospital set. I’m wondering if you had a vision of what Perlah does outside of the hospital?  00:09:39 Amielynn Abellera  Well, I think Perlah is, she’s been at this hospital, PTMC, pretty much, this was her first job, she really wanted to work there in this urban setting.  And she’s been there probably for over eight years or something, like through COVID. I think she is a single mom and she has two children who are both under the age of 10. So I think she’s exhausted, but she loves nursing. She loves her kids. And she is just, she knows how to compartmentalize and work hard and like protect herself. She knows how to leave, at least she thinks she knows how to leave the job at the door in order to go home and be with her children.  00:10:24 Isabel Li  Uh-huh. And is this something, also, I’m just curious, like, is this something that you had to imagine yourself or did some of the writers sort of drop some hints during production?  00:10:35 Amielynn Abellera  I mean, a little bit of both, I think. There are only some hints in the script in the pilot and the first season where it’s dropping like, oh, she has some kids and she’s exhausted and kind of eye-rolling — Yeah, and pets — And sort of eye-rolling exhausted by what’s happening at home. And it’s, I am a mother of a five and a half year old. She’s almost six right now. So I sort of understand that exhaustion, but like deep love for my child. But it’s like, I’m happy to go to work and have them at school, but I’m also missing them. It’s just this like journey of a mother. So it was a bit of me sort of creating that backstory, but also just from the hints of the writers.  00:11:23 Isabel Li  Definitely. I think something that’s so special about The Pitt as a medical show is its accuracy in depicting the very hectic lives of healthcare professionals, especially in an emergency room setting. So Nurse Perlah is often mediating like some sort of communication and really emphasizing medical jargon or reading off data. What was it like memorizing all of these different lines and delivering it in a way that felt authentic to the way that healthcare professionals might?  00:11:50 Amielynn Abellera  Sure. Oh my gosh. It’s really challenging. I think as soon as I get the scripts, and again, thank goodness I have a sort of familiarity with having a little bit of a medical background, but you know, that was years ago. So anytime I get a script, I immediately go to the hard stuff and get that in my brain as soon as possible. And a trick that I do is, as soon as I have it memorized, I’m just saying it all day and doing things with my hands. Like I do it when I’m folding laundry. I do it when I’m washing dishes. I do it when I’m cooking. I’m doing it when I’m driving, just because as soon as it’s second nature, and that’s the thing about healthcare professionals, they’re constantly, like they’re not thinking about what they’re saying. They’re, it’s so awesomely competent in their brain, that is not difficult. That’s actually like them just having a conversation.  So I love trying to get to that point and showing how Perlah is just so competent in all of that stuff and doesn’t even have to think about it while putting in an IV.  00:13:00 Isabel Li  Absolutely. Oh my gosh. And I think like a lot of our listeners, maybe if they watch The Pitt and a lot of audience members really enjoy the lighthearted moments that you share with Princess, also another Filipina nurse played by Kristin Villanueva, especially that Nurse Perlah code-switches with her using Tagalog as a language.  Can you tell our listeners what that code-switching feels like to you and how you relate to Tagalog as a language?  00:13:25 Amielynn Abellera  Yeah, totally. Thank you for asking. I, as Amielynn Abellera, the actor, I grew up, I was born and raised in Stockton, California, and my parents spoke Tagalog and Ilocano at home all the time. And unfortunately, they didn’t teach me. So I’m actually not fluent in Tagalog at home.  I’m that Filipino American who later in life got voracious about wanting to embrace her heritage and learn it like in her adult life. And I think that translates with Perlah. I do, I think that Perlah is also, was also born and raised in the United States to two Filipinos who came from Mindanao. And even though she had the ear for it, I think that she’s learning it later in life. And I think she absolutely is so happy to have, Princess as her buddy because she can practice.  Um, because I think like the only way to learn is to constantly be talking every day. And I think Perlah does that. I think she finds any opportunity to celebrate joyfully her heritage by speaking the language with Princess. I think they both do. So it’s really close to, to my own personal experience with Tagalog because right now I am learning Tagalog on my own, taking lessons and things like that in order to teach my daughter as well, just to have it in our life more. But I think that is also what Perlah is doing.  00:14:58 Isabel Li  Yeah. And for you specifically, how and when did you start learning Tagalog?  00:15:03 Amielynn Abellera  Yeah, I think it really is. Like I said, my parents came in the ’70s to Stockton, California, as a doctor and a nurse. And, you know, that generation, at that time, their priority was assimilation, so they didn’t really teach me. And our Filipino-ness was a little bit second place, in terms of, not in a negative way, but it just was, it took a little bit of second priority as opposed to assimilating to our environment in Stockton, California. And so, however, whatever seeds were planted in there to not really pursue Tagalog or pursue, to learn and be curious about my Filipino heritage, that was sort of the majority of my childhood and into my college years. And it wasn’t until, I think, college and beyond when I started to Honestly, I think it was when I was exposed to Filipino cultural night in university, at Santa Clara University, where, all of a sudden, I was with all these other Filipino-Americans who had such a voracious sort of celebration and wanting to learn like the dances, the language, the style, the textiles, the clothing, the music, and they would study it and we would, they would just be so passionate about it.  And that really was an experience for me of, oh my gosh, I didn’t, it wasn’t like I was neglecting it on purpose. It’s just, that wasn’t in my life. So when that was happening for me, I slowly, slowly really wanted to start learning the language and started taking lessons probably in my twenties. And then, you know, but again, it’s a lifelong process to learn another language. It’s challenging. Um, and I wish, I wish I was, I wish I was at the level of Perlah where she has a buddy all the time to practice, practice, practice. But I don’t have that in my home or in my workplace right now, except with Princess at the hospital.  00:17:28 Isabel Li  Gotcha, gotcha. And currently, at the time of this interview, season two of The Pitt is in progress, and you had some really emotionally nuanced moments in the 12 o’clock episode. I’m not going to spoil it too much, but when Perlah reacts to losing a long-term patient, I’m wondering for you, as an actress, can you tell us about how you’re able to switch from some, you know, more lighthearted scenes to moments that really emphasize the darker, heavier aspects of being in medicine, like death and disease.  How do you portray and balance that?  00:18:02 Amielynn Abellera  Sure. Yeah. Thank you for asking. I think nurses are amazing in that way where I don’t know if it’s a blessing or a curse to be able to compartmentalize such extremes of feeling and experiences of loss of patients on the hour, every hour, and being able to move on to sort of uplift and help other patients on the hour, every hour. But I think Perlah, as such an experienced, competent nurse, has learned how to switch it on, switch it off, but I do feel that something that episode 206 was trying to shine a light on is what of that armor has cracks or what of that armor isn’t as strong for certain patients or she or what of that armor is, uh, what if that punch… I’m not able to recover as easily as I usually am? So, um, and I think that must happen all the time with healthcare professionals of what they have to do. I think they have to experience losing loved ones and patients and friends who are patients all the time. And how is it that they get back up to be there for the next one?  So I was– it was ultimately challenging, but I’m so glad that that episode showed that dynamic.  00:19:34 Isabel Li  Speaking of a hospital setting, I imagine it’s quite a unique set to be one, and The Pitt definitely emphasizes the realism of being in a hospital. Like, we see lots of different types of medical equipment, hand sanitizer, very relevant, pressing things that make us feel like we’re almost, like, engaging with the show in a sense. How do you describe that set?  00:19:56 Amielynn Abellera  To me, I really feel like it’s a real hospital. Everything pretty much works almost like the real thing, but it doesn’t, right? So like the water fountain looks, smells, feels like a real water fountain and it is until it just doesn’t shoot out water, right? Like everything is so amazing.  And I think that’s what Nina Ruscio, our set designer wanted to build and working with all the executives was they wanted to build this entire whole hospital to really immerse us in the reality of it. And there, a lot of times there are real needles that we have to close up on, but then when we do something actually, we switch it out for a dull needle. So it is, it’s really very, this balance and like a real scalpel that needs to look so sharp, but then as soon as it’s, actually near the skin, it is a dull scalpel, and then that’s also a prosthetic. So sometimes I can’t tell what’s real and not real. I just kind of…I just have to jump in and kind of engage with it. And then if it’s the real thing, not be freaked out. So yeah, but it’s, it’s, it’s a part of the…It’s so, it’s so incredibly fun.   I’m so fascinated by this hospital that I basically go to work to like a real nurse at 5:00 in the morning every day for a 12-hour shift. And I put on the scrubs, and then I take off the scrubs. So I kind of feel like so much like a real nurse, but also not.  00:21:42 Isabel Li  How do you think The Pitt has influenced you as an actress? After being on this show, have your goals as an actress changed? What do you see yourself doing in the future?  00:21:52 Amielynn Abellera  Yeah, So, I mean, I am really in a dream right now. It feels…like I probably had this dream of, you know, really being invited on a show from its initial season, initial episode, and being a part of a team from the very beginning, originating a role that is representing so many different cultural dimensions, like across the board. And also the show being so successful and having an impact globally, not only for healthcare workers, but, you know, the diversity that is the reality of the world.  So it’s hard to think ahead. I kind of just want this to last as long as possible for Nurse Perlah and for Amielynn. And, you know, I’ve learned to be in my acting career just putting one foot in front of the other and trusting that where it’s going will lead to the next piece in my universe. And I– the moment I try to plan something or want something to happen, it will not happen. I think I just have to trust the journey and how the universe will put what’s meant to be in front of me.  00:23:17 Isabel Li  And as an actress, what are you the most passionate about doing in any role that you play?  00:23:23 Amielynn Abellera  Well, I love the human experience. I love what that did to me as a young artist and as a young kid and what that ignited in me watching like an actor go through it and it’d be so real and me be so moved. And I love being that vehicle for other audience members. And as the actor, I can feel if I’m hitting a stride with it. And it’s a really exhilarating process. And it just reignites why I love being an actor.  00:24:06 Isabel Li  For all the listeners who have watched The Pitt, or for those of our listeners who have yet to watch The Pitt, and they definitely will after hearing this episode — what do you want the listeners or the audience members to take away from watching The Pitt, from seeing you as Nurse Perlah in it?  00:24:23 Amielynn Abellera  Yeah, well, first off, I hope you go home and turn on your HBO Max and watch The Pitt to all of you who haven’t seen it yet. And I hope you enjoy it. And I just hope that you watch it and are entertained, but also you walk away with learning something about humanity and our healthcare workers and also laughing and crying and being fascinated as much as we are behind the scenes. We’re really having such an excellent time creating this show. And we’re so thrilled that audience members love it as much as we love making it.  So I hope you have that same exhilaration and elation as we all do here.  00:25:10 Isabel Li  I’ll put a link to your social media on kpfa.org so our listeners can follow you there. And thank you so much, Amielynn, for joining me on Apex Express today.  00:25:20 Amielynn Abellera  Well, thank you for having me. I’m excited to talk to you and to share my story. And thank you for listening.  00:25:27 Isabel Li  That was actress Amielynn Abellera, who plays Nurse Perlah, one of the Filipina nurses on The Pitt. And we’re about to hear from one more actress from the show. But before that, here’s a music break with 7000 Miles by Ruby Ibarra.  00:25:59 [MUSIC: 7000 Miles by Ruby Ibarra]  00:30:07 Isabel Li  And that was the song 7,000 Miles by Ruby Avara here on KPFA.  00:30:11 Isabel Li  Thanks for tuning in to Apex Express tonight, where our next guest is the actress Kristin Villanueva, who plays Nurse Princess De La Cruz, another Filipina nurse on the HBO Max medical show, The Pitt. Hi Kristin, welcome to APEX Express.  00:30:29 Kristin Villanueva  Hi Isabel, thanks for having me.  00:30:32 Isabel Li  Absolutely. My first question for you is, how do you identify and what’s your story?  00:30:37 Kristin Villanueva  I am Filipino American. I was born and raised in Manila, Philippines, and I moved to the Washington DC area when I was 15.  00:30:47 Isabel Li  How did you get into becoming an actress?  00:30:50 Kristin Villanueva  Kind of by accident. When I moved to the States and I was at my new high school. I joined the drama program just because we didn’t have that in my school in the Philippines and that was something I’ve always been interested in. So yeah, I auditioned and I didn’t know that the drama teacher was a very serious one. Like, you either join the drama club or you play softball, you can’t have both. So yeah, that’s how I got introduced.  00:31:27 Isabel Li  And at a young age, what kinds of films or movies really inspired you to pursue drama?  00:31:33 Kristin Villanueva  I don’t think it inspired me to pursue drama, but my choice of movies, my favorite movies when I was younger is, I would say, is a little bit peculiar for an eight-year-old, for a 10-year-old. But I remember watching Kramer vs. Kramer with Dustin Hoffman and Meryl Streep and it having such an effect in my little eight-year-old self. I was so moved by it. And also Legends of the Fall with Anthony Hopkins, Aidan Quinn and Brad Pitt.  And like, what does a 10-year-old Filipino girl have anything in common with these turn of the century, 19th century, you know, Montana cowboys? You know, it’s just so random, but for some reason I just fell in love with it. Maybe I just fell in love with Brad Pitt, but, yeah, those heavy dramas had an impact in me, even though I didn’t know exactly what it was.  00:32:35 Isabel Li  So you play Nurse Princess on the HBO Max medical show The Pitt, and which, at the time of this interview, we’re, you know, getting towards the finale of season two very, very quickly. I’ve really been enjoying season two. And first of all, congratulations on winning Outstanding Performance by an ensemble in a drama series. That’s so incredible.  00:32:54 Kristin Villanueva  Thank you so much. Yeah, it’s been a wild ride.  00:32:57 Isabel Li  Yeah. Can I just say, Princess is such an energetic and confident character, and it’s really fun watching you play a healthcare professional in such a hectic setting of an emergency room. What do you do to get in character of Princess?  00:33:11 Kristin Villanueva  Ooh, that’s a great question. She has such a vibrant energy when she’s at the ED, and I don’t need a lot to prep myself to get to that level because I’m just excited to be at the Warner Brothers lot, and being on set and being with very kind people. So it doesn’t take a lot to get in that mindset. Maybe if it’s a 5.30am call, maybe I need a little bit more coffee to get there. But in terms of my emotion and excitement and energy, I don’t need to do that much because, yeah, it kind of, it’s parallel in my real life and in Princess’s life of just doing what they both want to do. But in terms of, I would say, the difference is, I wish I had Princess’s confidence in my life more. You know, she’s very confident in everything that she does. You know, she knows she’s good, and she isn’t shy to show it. Because I think when she shows it, it’s not to show. It’s just to do, you know? Um, so I wish I have more and more of that in my life.  00:34:35 Isabel Li  For you, what’s the most challenging part of playing Princess?  00:34:39 Kristin Villanueva  I would say, well, first, the lines, the medical jargon and the technicality of things. So, thankfully, we have amazing med techs that are always right next to us, correcting us, you know, making us feel more confident, guiding us, answering all our questions. So, yeah, making sure that I look like I know what I’m doing. So that would be, I would say, the hardest part.  00:35:08 Isabel Li  Yeah, and on that note, like in many of her moments, Princess is so often mediating communication for medical information in so many different ways. How do you prepare for a role like that where you have to, I mean, you mentioned some things about needing to like look and act the part and you have some people helping you, but what are some other things that you do to really have you, you know, help practice sounding like a healthcare professional?  00:35:35 Kristin Villanueva  First, I Google everything. And then I make sure I’m able to explain it in my own words, so whatever the procedure is. Don’t ask me anything now, because once I’m done filming, it leaves my brain. So yes, I research everything. And then when it comes to memorization, if it’s, the nurses have a lot of numbers. We may not have a lot of the long words, Latin words, medicine words that the doctors do, but we have to say a lot of different numbers, you know, BP 160 over 20 and all of that. So what I do is I would record the other people’s lines, make leave a space for my lines and just play it all day, every day. When I’m walking the dog, when I’m doing dishes, when I’m folding laundry. So I can get it in my body while I’m doing different things. Because I notice that if I’m just sitting down and memorizing my lines, and then I get to set the next day, and all of a sudden, you know, I’m given all these choreography and I’m moving, or they change the choreography in the middle, that gets really tricky. So doing my lines while moving helps a lot. And then of course, the things that I can Google as much as I can, but then I take advantage of having, like I said, the med techs on set. Then I ask them about their emotional experiences behind procedures. So things I start with, okay, is this procedure an everyday thing? How often do you see it? How often do you deal with it? And then from there, I ask if it’s something interesting that it’s like they’ve only heard of but never actually seen in practice. What would you do? They say, if you’re not busy, you run to that room and watch it, that kind of thing. And if it’s an emotional scene, then I ask them, how do you deal with these things? Then I get to hear their experiences and how they cope with it after the shift.  00:37:53 Isabel Li  Did you know anything about medicine or the emergency room before this role?  00:37:59 Kristin Villanueva  No, I think I’m one of those very rare Filipinos that don’t really have a lot of healthcare professionals in their families. I do have a cousin who’s a radiologist and my husband’s side of family. There are a lot of nurses and that’s my mother-in-law included, but no, I have zero.  00:38:20 Isabel Li  Oh, wow. So I watched some of your other interviews and I found it really interesting that you had talked about like telling your agent not to submit you to roles on nurses, on projects, unless it was specifically featured.  Can you tell us more about that and how you navigate like the Filipino representation in medical shows, especially in The Pitt as an actress yourself?  00:38:41 Kristin Villanueva  Sure. I was getting a lot of, I wouldn’t say a lot, but I would often get auditions for nurses in medical shows or non-medical shows. And I’ve played them before and I’ve been very grateful for those experiences. One of them was a movie opposite Susan Sarandon.  So Susan Sarandon was also playing a nurse. So all of my scenes was with her. So those are very cool experiences. But because I’ve played them a number of times, then I told my agents at one point, hey, unless, like you said, the nurse part is more featured or has more lines other than yes, doctor, then sure, I would audition because I’ve done it.  And I also didn’t want to perpetuate that sad practice of, you know, okay, let’s have one Filipino or one Asian nurse and check that box off.  Because it does feel that way. And it’s just not the real world. So when The Pitt came and I saw the breakdown, it’s a heftier breakdown for the part of Nurse Princess. I mean, and just looking at her name, Princess de la Cruz, I was like, somebody did the research. I’m like, all right, okay, I’ll put myself on tape for this.  00:39:59 Isabel Li  Yeah, and I love how Princess as a character is written to be such a crucial part of the team. Very competent, very quick on her feet. Are there any ways where you, yourself, got to influence how Princess was portrayed, maybe beyond the scripts or, you know, in any ways that you could add to that character?  00:40:19 Kristin Villanueva  I think so? I’m not sure, but I have noticed that in season two, on the scripts, Princess’s, looks, eye rolls, stares were now written. Whereas before, I was just doing it. So yes, I think so. Because I didn’t have a lot of lines. I still don’t have a lot of lines, but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t have an opinion. And yeah, I was just being truthful in all those moments. So if I feel like something’s off or, you know, I don’t think Princess has a good poker face. So that made its way into the script recently.  00:41:05 Isabel Li  Oh, I see. Well, the show primarily takes place in a hospital setting. But for you, when you’re playing Princess, do you imagine what she does, like, outside of the hospital? Like, who is she outside of work?  00:41:16 Kristin Villanueva  I think when there is an after party or somebody’s birthday, someone’s baptism, or, I think she’s the same. I think she’s a work hard, party harder kind of girl. But I can also see her turning everything off and having a lot of deep, quiet solo time that she doesn’t talk about much often.  00:41:44 Isabel Li  Yeah, something so cool about Princess is the fact that she can apparently speak six languages. But I wanted to talk about the fact that you, as Princess, code-switched to Tagalog in many scenes, especially with Amielynn Abellera, who plays Nurse Perlah. For you, can you tell our listeners how it feels for you switching from English to Tagalog?  00:42:05 Kristin Villanueva  Well, first off, the first word that comes to mind is it’s fun. You know, you get to use that skill or use that — used to be a very familiar part of myself again. But I also feel extremely vulnerable because I don’t get to do that often. I don’t think I’ve, maybe I’ve acted once in Tagalog, but I can’t remember any other significant roles where I was able to do that. So to do that on The Pitt is, yeah, it’s pretty vulnerable just in terms of sharing that part of myself that I haven’t shared really acting-wise.  But it’s also fun. Because it comes naturally. And I get to there’s so many nuances that I would think only Filipinos would get, but it’s also so gratifying to hear from from other folks who are not Filipinos that get it. You know, even though they don’t understand, um, the Filipino jokes, but they have their own — they have their own version in their own culture. So it’s — it’s really fun to hear that.  00:43:18 Isabel Li  Just out of curiosity for you, how do you relate to Tagalog as a language? Do you speak it often?  00:43:24 Kristin Villanueva  I don’t speak it often, unfortunately. I do still speak it with my family, and we Zoom once, twice a week. But other than that, no, I don’t speak it often.  And it’s kind of sad, because I feel like some words are leaving my memory. But yeah.  00:43:45 Isabel Li  Yeah, wow. So when they’re written in the script, do you translate, or are they already words in Tagalog that you already know?  00:43:54 Kristin Villanueva  When they’re written in the script, they’re written in English. And season one, I used to translate it for myself. And then season two, we have a coach who gave us a lot more options. But what’s wonderful about working with the writers is they’re not precious with their own phrases.  They defer to us to translate it as close to the gist of, let’s say it’s a joke, but if I were to translate it in Tagalog, word per word, it’s not going to land the same way as it would in American, in English. Do you know what I mean? So they much rather have us say it in whatever’s parallel in Tagalog. So yeah. And I applaud the writers for doing that, ’cause that’s one of my pet peeves sometimes when I’m, you know, watching other shows, translation of, it’s not quite that, you know, or it’s too literal. If it’s too literal, then it’s, that’s not how we talk.  00:44:59 Isabel Li  Right. And putting that in the context of Princess as a character, who is a polyglot, there are some moments where she speaks French and does sign language.  00:45:08 Isabel Li  How did you navigate these multilingual exchanges communicating in different languages, essentially. Oh, I look forward to it. I look forward to them so badly. It’s one of the things I got really excited about auditioning for the part, ’cause it was written in her breakdown that she speaks six languages. Um, I personally don’t, but I am so enamored by polyglots. Like if I were to meet someone who can speak three languages plus, I’m just, I follow them like a puppy. I don’t know, I just find it so sexy and intriguing. And it’s like something that I aspire to be, but just haven’t had the time to do it. So yes, I look forward to them.  00:45:52 Isabel Li  Yeah, and how do you practice? Like, did you have to practice some French and some ASL?  00:45:57 Kristin Villanueva  Oh, um, for the French, since there’s only one line, we didn’t hire a coach, but we did hire, um, coaches for ASL. Oh, yeah, I just practiced the hell out of them. Um, but there’s also that nuance of, um, how fluent or how good is your pronunciation for someone who doesn’t speak it all the time, you know? You got to, like, factor that in as well. But, yes, I just practice it all the time.  00:46:24 Isabel Li  Gotcha. And speaking of that, I love how Princess and Perlah add some lighthearted humor and back and forths and gossip throughout the series. How do you switch from humorous moments to more serious ones?  00:46:36 Kristin Villanueva  I mean, you don’t really think about it in life, right? Like one minute you’re crying and then something happens and then you find it hilarious. You just go with the flow on set. You don’t really ever plan, okay, this beat is a funny beat, and this one is a dramatic beat. You don’t. As long as you keep it honest, those colors would come out naturally.  00:47:02 Isabel Li  The Pitt is very current. Like there are so many current events and everyday sort of issues mirrored in the series. What is your experience working with a set and a story that feels like it is very much set in the everyday?  00:47:21 Kristin Villanueva  It hasn’t been an issue. It’s never– if anything, sometimes it’s tougher because you can’t escape the real world, right? It’s not like when I get to do a Shakespeare comedy, there’s a reprieve from, you know, the sad current events that are happening. So yeah, that’s– I would say that’s the only downside, but there’s a lot more upside to that, which is you get to present and work through real life situations. You know, that I’m happy that a TV show like The Pitt, you know, something that’s made for entertainment can actually dive into these really serious topics. And what I love about The Pitt is that I don’t think it’s preachy. I don’t think it tackles headlines of the day in a way that it makes you want to turn the TV off. If anything, it shows how, it shows the repercussions on the everyday people. And hopefully audiences that don’t have anything to do, like I’ll give you an example, like for nurses strikes, right? If you see that on the headline and you don’t work, you’re not a healthcare worker, you’ll probably just, you know, skip that video or not read that article because you think it doesn’t affect you.  But hopefully by watching The Pitt, you’ll see, oh no, it will affect me if God forbid I have to go to the hospital, if my loved one has to go to the hospital and you don’t get seen for 10 hours, or there were mistakes in, the medicine, or it’s just not top care that you think you deserve. It’s not because the nurses or the doctors or the staff are bad. They’re understaffed, period. Right? They haven’t had a day off in 12 days. So no, it’s a privilege to be able to do a show, have a job that actually reflects what’s happening in real life.  00:49:40 Isabel Li  Yeah, thank you for sharing about that. And finally, I want to touch upon your work in general. As an actress, would you say there’s something that you’re most passionate about doing?  00:49:50 Kristin Villanueva  Ooh. Are we talking about material or medium? Because I would say everything. I do miss doing plays. I haven’t done a play since, my gosh, I think pre-COVID. So it’s been a while. So I really love doing plays. I have more experience in theater than TV and film combined. A really good material is so inspiring to do, whether it be a classic like Chekhov or any new contemporary plays. You know, there’s so many playwrights, those plays I want to do so badly. There’s something electric about working on a brand new play when the playwright is in the room. But also, it’s also really amazing to work on juicy Shakespearean tragedies. You know, when I get to play Shakespeare ingenues, in those three hours, you’ve lived a lifetime. You know, usually in a Shakespearean comedy, you meet the ingenue before they fall in love. And then they fall in love, and then they get their hearts broken. And then by the end, they’re kind of this new person who’s a little bit more learned, but not the same 16-year-old that you met three hours ago. So getting to do those parts are a complete joy.  00:51:29 Isabel Li  I’m wondering, do you have a dream role that you’d like to play in the future? Like either in theater or in film? Who would it be and who would you like to work with?  00:51:37 Kristin Villanueva  I love this question. My imagination just starts going everywhere. Yes. My dream role for the theater would be Martha from Edward Albee’s Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf? I got to do that play a few years ago, but as Honey, as one of the other characters. But I would love to play Martha someday. Another theater role would be Arkadina from The Seagull or Nina, but I think I’ve aged out of Nina. And in terms for like TV, gosh, I’m obsessed with Narcos, obsessed. And I’ve always, I’ve written a part from, if Narcos was ever to do a season about the Philippines, I have a role that I wrote for myself. Cause I don’t, you know, you look at my face, like, my face is too round and I’m too short and I smile too much for a show like Narcos or The Wire, which are, like, one of my top, top favorite TV shows.  And I don’t have a part for them ’cause I don’t look the part, but I found a way to write myself in Narcos season, I don’t know, season five Philippines.  00:53:09 Isabel Li  One last question for you. These are such incredible answers. Thank you so much for sharing. One last question for you. Out of your entire acting career right now, what has been the most rewarding moment for you?  00:53:22 Kristin Villanueva  I mean, besides The Pitt, mainly because of the reach and mainly because a lot of Filipino nurses have become so happy just to be seen and represented. And that means so, so much, another role that I am most proud of is this play — I wouldn’t even say play — it’s more of a performance art piece called The Courtroom. The theater company called Waterwell produced it in New York. And The Courtroom is about a Filipino immigrant to the US who accidentally voted when she was still only on a green card. So she wasn’t supposed to vote, but she did not do it maliciously. So the play is about her filing appeal after appeal to stay in the U.S. and not be deported. So I was pretty proud of that. We used, the lines were straight out of the court transcripts. And yeah, I wish we could do it again, especially with, you know, the current climate.  00:54:38 Isabel Li  Yeah, definitely. Well, thank you so much, Kristin, for sharing her story and all of your various experiences. Do you have anything else you’d like to share with our listeners?  00:54:47 Kristin Villanueva  Oh, just thank you so much for watching The Pitt and, you know, for all the nice words about the show. And I hope you keep watching.  00:55:00 Isabel Li  And that was Kristin Villanueva, who plays Nurse Princess De La Cruz on The Pitt, which just released its season 2 finale last week at this time.  Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our two guests tonight, Kristin and Amielynn. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important.  00:55:31 Isabel Li  Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show is produced and edited by me, Isabel Li. Have a great evening and thanks so much for listening.  The post APEX Express – 4.23.26 – Nurses of The Pitt appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 4.16.26 – Rethinking Immigration Detention 16.04.2026 59мин

  APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. On this episode, host Miata Tan speaks with three guests from Tsuru for Solidarity, a nationwide organization working to end immigration detention in the United States. They discuss the current state of the system, the conditions facing immigrant and asylum-seeking families, and how Tsuru’s Japanese American roots shape their approach to this work. Get Involved with Tsuru for Solidarity Join a campaign Mailing list Instagram | Facebook | YouTube Website   Transcript ​[00:00:00]  Miata Tan: Hello and welcome. I’m your host Miata Tan, and you are tuning into APEX Express, a weekly radio show that uplifts the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. The United States runs the largest immigration detention system in the world. Earlier this year, the US Immigration and Customs Enforcement, also known as ICE, [00:01:00] held a record. 73,000 people in immigration detention the highest number in the agency’s 23 year history. Since January 20, 25, over 6,200 kids have passed through ICE detention. Tonight we hear from a community who are shining a light on this issue and working to end the ongoing detention of immigrant and asylum seeking families.  Rob Buscher: The Japanese American story and Asian American story are just one chapter in this much larger chronicle of state violence, and we. See our role as, as also helping to connect the dots and be the connective tissue. Miata Tan: That was the voice of Rob Buscher, the Director of Operations at Tsuru for Solidarity, a nationwide organization with a mission to educate, advocate, and protest to close all US detention site. And bring an end to inhumane immigration policies. Tsuru for Solidarity is led by [00:02:00] the survivors and descendants of Japanese Americans who are incarcerated in concentration camps by the US government in World War ii. Our three guests tonight are shaping the future of this work at Tsuru for Solidarity. They share with us how the legacy of Japanese American wartime incarceration is deeply intertwined with the present day realities that many immigrant communities are facing. First up is Mike Ishii, the Executive Director of Tsuru for Solidarity. Here’s Mike taking us back to the inception of this organization and national movement. Mike Ishii: In 2016 the Obama administration decided to really lean into. A deterrence policy of immigration. When they had first entered office, we thought they may actually provide some relief for immigrants. But in fact, what they ended up doing was weaponizing the immigration policy at the southern border against immigrants. And they built [00:03:00] Karnes and Dilley, which were the first family detention centers. Carl Takei, one of the founding members of Tsuru for Solidarity. In fact, I think he was just honored by, the Asian Bar Association for his longtime advocacy work in community spaces. Well, in 2016 when the Obama administration really opened Karnes and Dilley, Carl was working at the A CLU in immigration and the Obama administration had the audacity to want to invite advocates from all over the country to show off their new detention centers. And so when Carl entered into those sites, what he encountered was a room that was. Full of giant cabinets floor to ceiling. And when they opened the doors, what he saw inside were thousands of shoes for infants. And it took his breath away and he realized, oh my God, these are concentration camps for children. And you know, this really. Resonated with his [00:04:00] own family’s history of mass incarceration during World War ii. So what he did was he immediately called Dr. Satsuki Ina, Dr. Ina is very famous. For a number of things. One is that she is really the preeminent community trauma specialist in the Japanese American community. She was born inside of the Tula Lake Segregation Center, a concentration camp. She would grow up to become a very, well-known psychotherapist in the Japanese American community. Dr. Ina. Is really like Carl’s auntie, and so he said, this is happening at the southern border. I want you to come have a look. She went inside and she was actually able to meet with families and their children, and she of course can do a psychological assessment  She began to advocate. Against these camps because what she realized was that the conditions, the experiences, the trauma that these children were experiencing was very similar to what our own survivors had experienced as children during World War ii in the US concentration caps. [00:05:00] So there’s one of the genesis prongs of Tsuru for solidarity. If you fast forward. To 2018, you have the zero tolerance policy under Trump, administration, 1.0. And if you remember, at that time, as an extension. of deterrence, they were separating children from their families at the southern border. These are families who were seeking refugee status, who were seeking asylum, who were presenting for asylum. That’s a constitutional and human right, protected by the Geneva Conventions. They would take those families, they would literally strip the children away from their parents. They deported the parents. Purposefully they did not record where they were sending them often deported not to countries of origin. So in many cases, we still have not reunited those families. We don’t know where the parents are and the children are still here, nine, 10 years later, With unaccompanied status because they purposefully destroyed the connections and the ability to [00:06:00] trace and reunite those families. That’s Trump 1.0. And when they were doing that they were also expanding these large congregate concentration caps for children. They were calling them influx centers and saying, oh, they’ll only be processed through these, and then we’ll release children into. Custody of family members, et cetera. That was not true. They were actually prisons for children and they were literal concentration camps. It’s violating the due process laws of the United States. there’s no accountability. There’s no oversight. And so Tsuru for Solidarity emerged in 2018 as an organization of Japanese Americans, really led by survivors who were children in camps and their descendants.  My own mother was incarcerated in a concentration camp in Idaho with her family. During World War ii, she was 10 years old at that time. She had two younger sisters and her youngest sister was born inside of the Minidoka concentration camp and experienced birth trauma because they had no doctors. She was, um, birthed by a veterinarian [00:07:00] and ex experienced, um, lack of oxygen And so she lived a life of tremendous suffering and, and disability. Um, that was often unrecognized as trauma from a concentration camp. She attempted to commit suicide multiple times. Eventually would die an early death from mental health. Complications. That’s the legacy of the camps of World War ii, and understanding that multi-generational impact is partly why suited for solidarity emerged in 2018 when we recognized that they were repeating our history, and that’s why we’re here today. Miata Tan: That was Mike Ishii, Executive Director at Tsuru for Solidarity. Mike described how Tsuru’s work grew in response to the ongoing detention of immigrant children in the United States. As he mentioned, many Japanese Americans have deep roots in this country. Now let’s hear from Rob Buscher Tsuru’s, Director of [00:08:00] Operations. He’s a mixed race yonsei or fourth generation Japanese American. You may hear him use terms like yonsei to describe different generations. Now, here’s Rob Unpacking the legacy of Japanese American incarceration, including the Civil Liberties Act of 1988, which issued a formal apology and reparations and what that history means for other communities today. Rob Buscher: In 2018 and 2019, our community was not the one that was at risk of being detained. We were not the ones who were being targeted by the state violence of immigrant detention and enforcement. and yet we had this ability to kind of think about and talk about. Multi-generational impacts of the trauma from World War ii. Um, it’s not just the survivors of camp and the children of camp. It’s the children and grandchildren of this experience who continue to suffer multi-generational effects of trauma, whether it be higher, uh, incidents of anxiety and stress leading to a [00:09:00] variety of health issues, uh, substance abuse issues the forced assimilation that resulted in the aftermath of our resettlement into the broader American society has also resulted in a great deal of assimilation trauma. So for a number of sansei and yonsei and gosei now trying to understand, uh, what is our history and heritage? How can we relate to something that was forcibly removed from us and really navigating this idea that at sometimes feels like a racial imposter syndrome, uh, when we don’t know our own histories because it was forcibly taken from us. In a variety of ways, uh, I think that the Japanese American community’s role, and specifically through Tsuru, has been rooted in this idea of solidarity and collective liberation because we understand that the effects. Our trauma, we’re part of this much longer continuum of anti-black racism, of anti indigenous genocide, of white supremacy in the United States. The [00:10:00] Japanese American story and Asian American story are just one chapter in this much larger chronicle of state violence, and we. See our role as, as also helping to connect the dots and be the connective tissue. In some cases, when communities who have experienced these kinds of traumas across many decades aren’t always in communication with each other, aren’t always in conversation, but the complexity and nuance of the American story actually lends itself to a number of parallels to have conversations around things like. Black reparations. And you know, this is another part of the work that Tsuru does in solidarity with black reparations and African American communities, descendants of chattel slavery and others who have suffered Jim Crow and other forms of state violence against black and brown communities. understanding that the, the redress story and the story of Japanese Americans receiving our own reparations. Uh, is part of this longer narrative around, uh, what does it mean to have reparative [00:11:00] justice? And, um, as some of the few people who have received reparations from the United States government, uh, many of us also see it as our obligation and duty to stand in solidarity with black reparations.  Mike Ishii: if I could just add on to that, you know. There’s an intersectional history in the United States of forced removals, you know, on the enslavement blocks enforcing people on forced death marches from their home lands to reservations. In the prison system of the us The largest prison system in the world. It’s forced removal, it’s separation of families, it’s mass incarceration it’s surveillance and it’s murder. And the Japanese American chapter of that history is actually a very similar story that just as, as Rob said, just keeps being repeated over and over again, but it’s created in new iterations. So, just to give you a small example related to the Japanese American story. Dylan Meyer, who ran the war relocation authority, he was responsible [00:12:00] for the 10 largest, the most well known of the Japanese American concentration camps. There were actually over 75, sites of detention for Japanese Americans during World War ii. Most people don’t realize that. what we were put into that system during World War II was based on the reservation model, um, of how they remove indigenous people from their homelands and then force them onto reservation lands. That model was exported. By the Nazis to build their concentration camps. So like people think, oh, Nazi Germany invented that. No, it was, that model was invented in the United States. It was then exported to Nazi Germany. It was then tailored further on Japanese American communities. And then with the forced assimilation, we were, our people were not allowed to go back to their homes initially. Dylan Meyer wrote about it in his biography. He considered the force assimilation one of his greatest accomplishments. So what he was doing was he was dispersing us and destroying us in one generation of force removal. We lost our homes, we lost our farms. We lost the nijo Mai, the Japan towns. We [00:13:00] lost our language. We lost our culture, and perhaps most importantly. We lost each other because they pitted our community against each other with a series of very divisive questionnaires that really turned people on each other, More than 84 years since the opening of the camp. We’re still trying to repair the fractures of that. They’re not healed yet. And so that’s what Rob, when Rob refers to multi-generational trauma, we’re a fractured community. Still trying to repair the implosion that was. Really dropped on us by the United States government, this is what they do repeatedly to community after community. So with the force assimilation after World War ii, they saw how that worked. Then they, they took that back and they weaponized it against, um, indigenous communities and saying, we’re gonna move people off the reservations. We’re gonna resettle them in cities Further isolating people away from their home communities, taking away their languages, taking them and breaking their connections to family and community. Right? Setting people up for failure in a city away from their [00:14:00] people. in poverty., And what we’re witnessing right now is a culmination of hundreds of years in this of white supremacy, weaponized against our communities. More openly, more brazenly than ever before, with the full power of the United States government behind it. Miata Tan: That was Mike Ishii, Executive Director at Tsuru for Solidarity. As Mike described mass surveillance programs, the World War II, incarceration of Japanese Americans and post-war pressures to assimilate left lasting impacts on this community. In the present, Tsuru for Solidarity connects the Japanese American history to ongoing immigration detention in the United States. Here’s Mike describing some of Tsuru’s past and ongoing campaigns focused on closing specific detention sites, what they call site fights.  Mike Ishii: Dilley and Karnes, which are the original two sites and the largest sites in Texas, which are now in the news again, [00:15:00] because they’re being reused again by the Trump administration very openly. But under Biden, we had forced ’em to close those basically functionally for families. They were using them in other ways. Which is not good. but we had forced them to stop detaining families officially. we had stopped the expansion of these large congregate sites for unaccompanied migrant children. Uh, we stopped them from opening a large one in Greensboro, North Carolina. They wanted to open what they called the Piedmont Academy. Site of the former National Jewish School that school closed. And so they had leased the property and they were gonna. Open their largest detention site for unaccompanied migrant children and call it an academy. we slowed it down and forced them to reconsider it long enough to where it became an unworkable, policy for them. And they abandoned it. We stopped them from expanding Fort Bliss. In El Paso, which is a military base that was also used as a Japanese American incarceration site [00:16:00] during World War ii. it’s currently being used again. It’s being called Camp East Montana, by the Trump 2.0 administration. And when they were incarcerating children there during the first Trump administration, children were literally forgotten. Their cases were forgotten, and there were children languIshiing in there for like. Up to a year at a time, and nobody knew they were there because no one cared. There were allegations of sexual abuse, uh, rotten food, children who never were allowed outside. Children covered in lice, children taking care of younger children because nobody took care of them, lack of medical care. And so if that’s shocking for what was happening under the first Trump administration, it’s. Also happening now. And, and there is even less oversight or accountability now than there was, during the first Trump administration because as broken as that system was, then it had more accountability because there were [00:17:00] advocates and legal representatives for children, which is almost non-existent now. They’ve done away with the funding for that. We have three year olds representing themselves in immigration courts now because they did away with the congressional funding to support that. That’s sort of the, the constellation of. Of the work that we emerged into when we came into formation, um, under the first Trump administration. And, it, it has just continued to evolve. We’ve been involved in, I think it’s eight site fights now. And as difficult as this moment is right now, I always wanna tell people, and frame it this way, when you fight back, you win. We closed the Berks Family Detention Center permanently. We stopped the Piedmont Academy from opening in Greensboro. Tsuru’s first major action was to go to Fort Sill in Oklahoma in 2019. Um, we led two protests there. The first one went [00:18:00] sort of viral on democracy now in cause they accompanied us. They embedded themselves with us. This is the first thing we ever did in a large scale and had no idea what we were doing at that point. We just were just angry and we, and full of, passion and said we have to go there and stop them from opening. A new concentration camp for 1600 children. And so we did that. Um, as a result, United we dream joined us along with AIM Indian Territory, with Black Lives Matter, Oklahoma City. Um, with Dream Action now Oklahoma with Veterans for Peace and with many of the local tribes. We came back a month later and staged a massive, massive demonstration shut down the highway into the fort. We brought 25 Buddhist priests and nuns with us. Who chanted the heart suture at the gate, um, while DACA young people took the highway and shut it down. After that action, the governor and the two senators from Oklahoma made an announcement the next day and they said, we’ve decided not to open this site here because we [00:19:00] said if you move ahead with. This is just the beginning. You think this is bad. We are gonna bring thousands of people here and we will make sure this site never opens. we proved through solidarity and community organizing in that moment that when you organize in solidarity against state violence, you win. You know, it’s a bad moment. Right now they’re proposing what, 23, 25 new warehouse detention sites, but actually. At least three or four of them have been curtailed already because community came together and said, not in my neighborhood, not in my town, not in my city. We will oppose you. And we’re getting very smart about how we work together. I think Chicago and Minneapolis, LA have really lifted up the idea that change and transformation comes from the ground up. when we wait for our. Governments to change policy for the better of people and humanity. It doesn’t happen. It’s [00:20:00] when it’s when the grassroots decide. We band together. We protect ourselves, we care for ourselves. We organize, we stand in solidarity against state violence. Then we can move things and we can stop things. Miata Tan: That was Mike Ishii, Executive Director at Tsuru for Solidarity. As Mike described, Tsuru organizes creative nonviolent actions to challenge immigration detention and bring people into collective resistance. Stay tuned to learn more about this movement and they’re opposing inhumane practices against immigrant communities. Miata Tan: [00:21:00] [00:22:00] That was Forevermore by Yuna. You are tuned into APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host, Miata Tan. Tonight we’re centering the work of Tsuru for Solidarity, a nationwide organization with a mission to close all US detention sites and bring an end to inhumane immigration policies. Sophie Sarkar is the Bay Area organizer with Tsuru for Solidarity. Here’s Sophie speaking about their approach using non-cooperation as a guiding strategy. Sophie Sarkar: Non-cooperation is the idea that. I guess there’s this larger model for [00:23:00] authoritarianism. And that an authoritarian regime is actually a lot more fragile than we think because it is upheld by many different pillars of society. So for example. The authoritarian regime cannot function unless it has a military force that is supporting it, unless it has a media that’s supporting it unless it has elected officials corporations, police forces. And so when we think about strategy, we’re really thinking about these specific pillars. Um, instead of just like, how can we take down this, uh, authoritarian regime? We think about like, okay let’s choose a pillar and let’s unpack all the different layers within that pillar. So, for example, if we choose the pillar of corporations, you know, there are many different corporations that we know are supporting, working in concert and supporting ICE and the Department of Homeland Security, like enterprise, like [00:24:00] Hilton, target, home Depot. And within each of those. , Well, there are the consumers, and then there are the workers, the managers, and then the CEOs. So we try to create strategies that kind of work from at a grassroots level. So starting with the outer layer of like the consumers through boycotts to workers, labor strikes and so forth. When we’re talking about non-cooperation, we’re really talking about strategies that help us support people to, to dissent and to stop actually working with the regime. we learned a lot from Minneapolis where folks were calling up enterprise, um, and booking booking cars so that ICE couldn’t. rent them and then just canceling last minute. Miata Tan: That was Sophie Sarkar Bay Area organizer at Tsuru for Solidarity. As Sophie described, Tsuru uses a framework of [00:25:00] non-cooperation to guide its organizing work. Their campaigns include a range of non-violent actions, letter writing, public demonstrations, and continued pressure efforts. Now returning to my conversation with Rob Buscher, Tsuru’s, Director of Operations. I wanted to know how Tsuru is organizing together, how they are thinking about this strategy nationwide.  Rob Buscher: We are all remote workers, so Mike and Becca, our Director of organizing, is based in New York City. Uh, and they frequently travel, uh, every other week traveling across the country to the campaign hubs that are mainly located in the West Coast, where we have a larger Japanese American community. Seattle, Portland, San Francisco Bay Area. Those are kind of our big hubs, and that’s where the bulk of Tsuru’s volunteer members are located. So much of this work is campaign driven, it’s really work that is ideated together [00:26:00] as, as a committee consensus based decision making that takes place both from campaign level, but also regional leaders within each one of those hubs. looking at child and family detention, looking at police prisons and detention as our two detention campaigns. Healing Justice as Mike was talking about, including Resiliency and arts as well as the core healing circles Practice that has been a, a part of our practice since the beginning. And also the solidarity with black reparations campaign. So between each of those four campaigns, we have co-chairs that lead that work. Um, they form our leadership council, which is essentially the, the board of sudu. And together with our six staff, we work very closely with the leadership council to create a plan for the organization at a larger national level. But the day-to-day operations is largely being done by our volunteer members in each one of those locations. We have busy seasons, of course. the Day of Remembrance on February 19th is a, a major focal point for a lot of [00:27:00] our historic remembrance around the anniversary of Franklin Roosevelt signing Executive order 9 0 6 6, which laid the legislative groundwork for the forced removal of our communities from the west coast and that. Has become, not just within Tsuru, but within the Japanese American community. A launch point for revisiting this history from the lens of today and trying to understand what is the role of the survivors and descendants of the Japanese American community as we see parallels to what occurred, happening to families. And individuals around the country in real time. A member of my own family was arrested under the Alien Enemies Act in 1942, and we’re seeing the same kind of legislation being used against Venezuelans and other folks from Latin America. you know, when we kind of think about the role that we play today. As staff, we hold a lot of the this work from like a planning standpoint, but the actual boots on the grounds are the volunteer members of the organization. Miata Tan: That was Rob Buscher, the Director of operations at Tsuru for [00:28:00] Solidarity. Now let’s return to Sophie Sarkar, the Bay Area organizer for this nationwide movement. Here Sophie reflects on Tsuru’s volunteer network and the anti deportation campaigns they help to coordinate across the Bay Area. Sophie Sarkar: So our volunteers are largely Japanese American, world War ii, prison camp survivors and descendants as well as allies. And It’s an amazing volunteer base to work with because it is so intergenerational. So for example, we had a strategy retreat for our leaders and our youngest participant was 21 and our oldest participant was 95. And. All the ages in between as well. that’s one of the reasons I love working with this group so much because I think it’s pretty rare to be in such intergenerational spaces organizing together. Yeah. And, uh, we have volunteers all across the Bay [00:29:00] Area. We have folks that. Our artists that have law degrees that, have an organizing background that have never organized before in their lives. Um, we really try to make ourselves accessible to anyone who’s interested in participating. So even if um, someone is just really starting to understand the realities of the systemic violence, against immigrants in this country we, we make space for that and we really try to, offer a lot of political education to folks so. Yeah, at any level they can engage. Yeah, and we have faith leaders. We have folks who have experience with labor unions. So it is a pretty wide variety. But yeah, most of us come together with this shared historical experience of, some people themselves or their families being incarcerated during World War II i, myself am a descendant of, [00:30:00] folks who are incarcerated at Manzanar and Tulle Lake. My family were also so folks who were coerced into renunciation and quote self deportation unquote after the war. I feel so many different various connections to my own family’s experiences and what’s happening today. And so it just feels like a really deep yeah, just a, a deep opportunity to get to, I. Ground in my, my ancestral historical experience as, as an organizer for Tsuru. I think for many of us by really being able to show up in solidarity with groups that are facing State violence it looks different today in some ways. But it’s kind of the same playbook as we might say of how the government treated our family members. And it’s really an opportunity for us to. really address the [00:31:00] impacts of what happened to our families on us, across generations to address our trauma, to face it to heal from it. Miata Tan: Definitely. Could you share a little bit about what your day-to-day looks like as a organizer?  Sophie Sarkar: My role is really to work with our volunteer leaders and to support them in, , building out campaigns here in the Bay Area. So in the Bay Area we have, we are part of the ICE out of Dublin coalition and we have our own Tsuru campaign around preventing the reopening of FCI Dublin as an ice detention facility. there is currently no ice detention facility in Northern California, so that would have a huge impact on the entire Bay Area and Northern California in general. So we spend a lot of time on that, working on that campaign. we also have part in Refugees campaign where we have supported individuals at risk of [00:32:00] deportation, um, with kind of mutual aid and wraparound care. And we also have a Palestine working group that is Supporting the J eight community in the Bay Area to organize folks around the genocide and Palestine, and now the war in Lebanon and Iran. And so we will be participating, for example, in a interfaith march, and pilgrimage in May as part of that we have a child and family detention campaign that’s more national. we organize monthly general meetings so that folks have a place to land with us. And at those general meetings we, give campaign updates, but we also, really try to do something engaging and like take an action together. So, at the last couple, um, general meetings, we folded paper dolls as part of a Paper Dolls campaign to raise awareness about child and family detention and the [00:33:00] 6,000 families that are currently detained by ICE. Miata Tan: That was Sophie Sarkar the Bay Area organizer at Tsuru for Solidarity. As you heard, children and families detained by US Immigration and Customs Enforcement are central to their campaign work. One example is the Paper Dolls to Free families Campaign that Sophie mentioned. Tsuru for Solidarity is leading this effort alongside partners in the National Coalition to End Family and Child Detention. The campaign invites people across the country to create paper dolls with little messages of solidarity, which the coalition will deliver to members of Congress. He is Tsuru’s Executive Director Mike Ishii, reflecting on the thinking behind this work. Mike Ishii: We have to recognize that great violence has taken place between people and between our groups. But the only way we’re going to reconcile this and actually transform it is if we try to repair it in a [00:34:00] transformative way. You know, part of the work that we’re doing right now, in the National Coalition to End Family and Child Detention is a campaign that we call free families. And here’s what it does, it recognizes that we are trying to free the families who are inside detention. Uh, you know, Liam Ramos, right? The five-year-old with the bunny backpack who was put in Dilley. He’s the face of 3,800 children detained in the last year by the Trump administration. It’s probably much higher than that because they don’t actually report truthfully, the statistics  That really moved people when they saw Liam’s face. But what we’re trying to do is have it, his story, be connected to a greater story about families and children, because what we know in our own research. And when we look at the voting patterns and why people voted for the Trump administration in the last election, what we see is really angry. People who feel left behind um, well, the system has left behind people. [00:35:00] Healthcare. Food stamps prenatal care, Medicare education, you name it. Housing, all of the things that affect working people who are struggling more and more as prices go up in this country. As the future starts to narrow and people don’t see an open feature for themselves but this 1% is getting more and more enriched by the policies. And the violence that they’re enacting on communities. And so the Free Families Campaign is really a campaign not just for immigrant to free immigrant families and children. It’s really to recenter the the importance and the sAACREdness of families and to organize families across the country for their common purpose, their common good. I was a part of a study and, advisory council that did research about how do we change the narrative on child and family detention nationally. What we found is that the majority of the country holds a value of the sAACREd. Importance of protecting children and the [00:36:00] sanctity of the family. And when we organize and get people into conversation about that, about their own families and about their own children and what it’s like to try to survive in this time, what we realize is that there’s this great common denominator of parents actually who are struggling in a system that’s leaving people behind everywhere, We think that’s where the future of movement and solidarity work needs to go. It’s about kitchen table issues. It’s about opening a future for the next generation. if you look at the, research and sort of the feedback that you hear from younger generations about their future, it’s really bleak. What they say, what they’re sharing is that they feel betrayed by the adults. Who are leaving them a world full of climate crisis and war and lack of opportunity, lack of rights. And so the organizing work that we’re involved in right now, you say, oh, it’s immigrant rights work, it’s anti detention work. It’s actually about revising the [00:37:00] future for really our whole society. As things fall and burn, it’s the old order. It’s so based in your rationality that it’s collapsing and on some level you can’t stop it from falling. And so our work in this moment is to get people out of the way. And save as many people as this system collapses. And then to vision the new system that actually is the beloved community that does provide equity, for all people that has been denied to so many of our communities. And what’s important in that work, along with the organizing and the intervention work against state violence, is the work around repair and healing. We’re part of, a national cohort that’s been, um, sort of think tanking and doing work and sharing, across our organizations, our methods and trying to help develop new templates, new forms of how to take healing and repair, especially around multi-generational trauma. And to share it broadly so that people are resourced and have more [00:38:00] access to the skillset and the tools for healing multi-generational trauma as part of regular everyday organizing in communities across the country. Miata Tan: That was Mike Ishii, Executive Director at Tsuru for Solidarity. Miata Tan: The namesake of Tsuru for Solidarity is deeply symbolic, Tsuru meaning crane in Japanese is described as a creature of transformation. A symbol of healing and repair, not only for the Japanese American community, but all communities. You are tuned into APEX Express, a weekly radio show, uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. You’ll hear more from the Tsuru for Solidarity team after this, stay with us. Miata Tan: [00:39:00] [00:40:00] [00:41:00] That [00:42:00] was Nobody by the one and only Mitski You are tuned into APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host, Miata Tan. Tonight we are talking about deportation and the communities fighting back. Tsuru for Solidarity, they’re a nationwide organization working to close all US detention sites and end inhumane immigration policies We’re diving into the Japanese American legacy behind Soda’s work and what’s driving their fight against deportation. Here’s their Executive Director, Mike Ishii. Mike Ishii: We actually have what. Probably more than 12 or 13,000 people at this point who are connected to us in our network. But then on the ground, boots in action, we have hundreds of people who are active and when we call on people like, we need you to come to this major action, we can get [00:43:00] thousands of people to turn out. So this has been a really beautiful evolution of community organizing. We often say. We want to be the allies that our people needed during World War II when they were removed and disappeared from the community. And so that’s really our intention that guides us here. in doing so, our work is rooted in relationship building. That’s really what that means. Like my mom didn’t know that anyone cared about her as a 10-year-old. No one came to the fences of Minidoka. Um, nobody marched in the streets and protested. There were very few people who were fighting for her freedom. And so she didn’t know, she didn’t have a relationship. So our work is in building relationships within our own community. To Decolonize from white assimilationist forced assimilation policies that are multi-generational, that have positioned us to be inculcated and manipulated as part of a model minority dynamic. We are the group that was used as the poster [00:44:00] child by Ronald Reagan when you rolled out that term. Unwinding that dynamic that has a stranglehold on our community. Because this is a community that was terrified for its survival, and it was grasping for straws of survival and being wildly manipulated by the society in the aftermath of the war. We get to do that work. it’s exciting for, for us to get to do that work. And actually, Rob, that’s part of his job is to lean into that organizing that we’re going to be launching in a fuller manner now that we’re here at AACRE. We also get to really build more on what it means to be in solidarity practice. And that’s the work I often to get to do with our external partners, what I call our cousins and our siblings in the movement space. And to me, it’s some of the most fulfilling work I’ve ever gotten to do in my life because it breaks your internal isolation that comes from your historical trauma. if you. Have ever woken feeling, how do we go forward? How do we stop this? How do I ever not feel like we’re fighting alone? Do this [00:45:00] work because you get daily evidence actually that you’re not alone. That we can win when we fight back, and that there are people who care deeply and I get to do that work. I’m very fortunate. As part of the organization our, you know, Becca, who is our Director of organizing, is an incredible strategist and gets to think tactically with our many incredible, incredible volunteers on the ground across the country. I’m fortunate that I know some of them because I was very involved in that work early on. And all I can say is that as a result of having had a chance to be at the frontline in that kind of, deep work with our folks is that I love my people. Oh my God, I love my people. Like I’m just, so moved by the stories of people and their families and survival, and then also their courage to understand that we’re a group that achieved a certain amount of privilege in the years since forced assimilation and. The [00:46:00] willingness to understand that’s not really something you hold onto, that you actually want to let go of that for your own benefit, and also because it’s the right thing to do in the movement toward equity. And so to get to be a part of that movement with my people. Is really a central part of our healing and to get to be a part of that in this organization at this moment, in this moment when we need to step up in, in ways that are so deeply important for the future of really the globe. Whether or not we’ll go into an abyss of darkness or we’re gonna transform this incredible escalated violence right now, I think we’re born for this moment. I really don’t think it’s an accident. And if we. Each have that choice and opportunity to step into this moment and play a role there. How lucky are we to get to be born right now? So that’s a little bit about how I see our role as an organization as we come into [00:47:00] AACRE and as we continue to evolve in this space.  Miata Tan : That’s really beautiful. And, and thank you for tying us back into AACRE, which is the Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality, a network of progressive Asian American organizations uh, soon be joining. Rob, could you share what you are excited for now that Tsuru will be joining Aker and, the future work that is coming up.  Rob Buscher: Thanks for that question. You know, I think there’s so many incredible organizations that are already under AACREs fiscal sponsorship, so just even in some of the preliminary meetings that we’ve had with other AACRE group leadership and being in conversation with people that. Oftentimes we’ve already known for, for many years. You know, I, Eddie Zang, um, and, and others who are, are involved peripherally, as funders are people that I’ve known since the film festival days. I recently learned. Kaen, who’s part of the HR staff at AACRE, a filmmaker that I worked with well over a decade [00:48:00] ago on a Muslim Youth Voices Project here in Philadelphia is also part of the team. You know, just having these little connection points has been pointing us towards the direction that we’re meant to be here. This feels like the right moment for Tsuru to be joining Aker. Uh, It feels like there’s a lot of, , capacity and bandwidth that we haven’t had under our current circumstances. But, um, really with the energy and enthusiasm of all of these groups coming together, I, I feel like we can really make an even bigger impact than we are in these programs. Um, as far as, you know, future. Ideas and, and programs that we have coming up on the horizon. we’re very excited about the Kintsugi Healing Conference. Uh, as Mike has spoken about the role of healing within our work. Obviously there’s a need for repairing the divides that exist within our own Japanese American community and before we can truly be in, in solidarity and, and do collective liberation work. Being able to heal those divides within our own community needs to take [00:49:00] precedent. So Kintsugi is a way of acknowledging that through this healing, resilience based conference allowing us to turn inwards and really think about the long-term effects of intergenerational trauma, how it’s shaped all of our families and individual pathways, and how we can ultimately come together to heal those divides. Um, while also learning more about and training up some of our people around these ideas of collective liberation. it’s gonna be taking place in San Francisco’s Japan town and we’re very excited about that. We’ll announce the dates very shortly for October, 2026. Some of the other things that we’re working on, as I mentioned earlier, we have our black reparations campaign. Tsuru has been doing this sort of work really in many ways since the beginning, but formalized during the, the summer of 2020 in the aftermath of the George Floyd Uprisings, the Black Reparations Campaign as one of the major work areas, with a number of other Japanese American organizations like New UK Progressives and the Japanese American Citizens League, San Jose Resistors. as part of [00:50:00] this national coalition to, uh, achieve redress and reparations for in solidarity with the descendants of chattel slavery. Our campaign actually had the opportunity to travel to Washington DC last May to participate in National Reparation Networks national Reparations Rally that was attended by over a hundred different, organizations that are working on this issue.  Currently. We’re in the process of launching a new project called the 4 0 7 Conversations, or a 4 0 7 project. It’s acknowledging that 2026 is 407 years since the beginning of chattel slavery in North America in 1619, and the goal is to have at least 407 conversations about reparations in this calendar year. So it’s a way to sort of normalize the topic of reparations within not just Japanese American. community spaces, but sort of in the broader conversation about what does it mean to do reparative justice work. As we look towards the future, we’re gonna be doing more [00:51:00] narrative campaign work too. We had the opportunity during the day of Remembrance to launch a, nationwide campaign that reimagined the instructions to all persons of Japanese ancestry poster that was placed in our Japan towns. That signaled the beginning of the so-called evacuation, the forced removal of our communities in our new instructions to persons of Japanese ancestry. It was an opportunity to call people in and to, uh, mobilize and activate our community in defense of the frontline communities that are facing the brunt of state violence today. So as we continue to strengthen and build We’re hoping to do even more of these large scale national mobilizations. And I’m just excited that we’re gonna be able to do this work together, uh, under AACREs banner. Miata Tan: That was Rob Buscher, Director of Operations at Tsuru for Solidarity. As Rob shared from aiding the movement toward black reparations to anti-ice mobilizations. The team at [00:52:00] Tsuru is gearing up for some important campaigns this year To close out, let’s return to Sophie aka their Bay Area organizer. I ask Sophie what work she’s most looking forward to in 2026. Sophie Sarkar: I am very excited about our, well, yeah, I’m very excited about a lot of things. I think I’m just excited about the ways in which am able to see as an organizer for Tsuru, just like Japanese American community really coming out and mobilizing and working together in coalition. I think, in this time, as we are all trying to figure out ways to dismantle this authoritarian regime and to resist it’s really important for us That like we are moving beyond the kind of hierarchical structure that the regime uses and figuring out how to work in coalition and to really find our lane, find what our role is [00:53:00] as an organization, as individuals. And for me it’s really exciting to see that the Japanese American community Is doing that is like really trying to work more and more in coalition and I’m excited to continue to support that. for example, we will be leading a non-cooperation training. With other JA organizations in a few months. to, yeah, really support us as a community to understand what non-cooperation looks like and how we can practice that in our various campaigns. And yeah, I see like the japantown organizations we’re part of a, Nihon Machi Coalition there. Getting really serious about preparing for and when ICE comes and doing the workup. Upfront now to really train in knowing your rights and non-cooperation and security, just to get prepared as a collective. This year we’re also, Tsuru is also organizing our healing justice [00:54:00] conference in the Bay Area called Kintsugi, that will take place in the fall. As part of that we hope to have a day of direct action. So I’m really excited to have the opportunity to kind of bring together our healing justice work, our healing arts work, and our direct action just integrating the three of those. And hopefully planning a really beautiful and healing and powerful action for us all to take together. Miata Tan: That’s really lovely. you’ve mentioned Healing Justice a few times in your own personal background and experience with Tsuru, but also these fantastic campaigns that we are looking forward to. Could you speak a little bit about how the Japanese American community and the wider Tsuru for Solidarity Network is taking care of each other during this moment? Sophie Sarkar: Yeah, such a good question. I feel like that’s something that I just notice our community is so good at [00:55:00] doing. Like, I think, you know, we really try to approach organizing from a relational perspective. So. Folks in little ways, like checking in on each other, making each other lunch. I know I had like afternoon at one of our volunteers houses the other day, just like eating lunch together and venting. But you know, it’s just the little ways or like folding origami, yeah, I think on that kind of level, relational level of just checking in and remembering that we are human and really need that kind of connection with each other in these times, especially when it can feel really scary and isolating. Zoomed out a little bit more, you know, like our general meetings and our trainings and those kinds of larger gathering opportunities are just a really nice way. Also, we always have a potluck dinner and feed each other. Like, it’s just a really nice way to Offer that kind of care and nourishment to one [00:56:00] another and connect as well. Miata Tan: Love that. It’s Always great to gather over food.  Sophie Sarkar: always. Miata Tan: That was Sophie Sarkar the Bay Area organizer at Tsuru for Solidarity, reflecting on her communities and how they’re taking care of each other during this time. This is APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, A weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. APEX Express is every Thursday evening at 7:00 PM and with that, we’re at the end of our time here. We really appreciate you tuning in tonight and a special thanks for Tsuru for Solidarity for sharing their time and work with us. For a transcript of today’s episode, please visit our website. That’s kpfa.org/program/APEX Express. [00:57:00] We’ve also added links to Tsuru for Solidarity’s website, their social media channels, and where you can go to learn more about their ongoing campaigns. Be sure to check that out. APEX Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me, Miata Tan. Get some rest, y’all.   The post APEX Express – 4.16.26 – Rethinking Immigration Detention appeared first on KPFA.
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  APEX Express – 4.9.26 – Library Joy 09.04.2026 59мин

  A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists. Tonight on APEX Express, join the Powerleegirls Host Miko Lee speaks with children’s book authors Lorraine Nam, Uma Krishnaswami and Maggie Tokuda-Hall about Library Joy in honor of National School Library Month! To Learn More Lorrraine Nam, illustrator and  author Michael Threet’s book: I’m So Happy You’re Here: A Celebration of Library Joy    Uma Krishnaswami Her books: Book Uncle Triology   Maggie Tokuda-Hall Her book: Love in the Library  Every Library Authors Against Book Bans   Show Transcript [00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.   [00:00:35] Ayame Keane-Lee: Welcome to tonight’s episode of Apex Express Celebrating Library Joy. I’m Ayame Keane-Lee the editor of tonight’s show, and part of the PowerLeeGirls bringing you the introduction to tonight’s show. Did you know that April is National School Library Month and in just 10 days from April 19th to 25th is National Library Week? The theme for this year’s National Library Week is Find Your Joy with Honorary Chair Mychal Threets. The first of three interviews you’ll hear my mom, Miko Lee have tonight is with Lorraine Nam the illustrator for the newly released children’s book written by that very Mychal Threets called, “I’m So Happy You’re Here”. You will then hear Miko speak with Uma Krishnaswami about her children’s book “Book Uncle and Me,” and lastly with Maggie Tokuda-Hall about her children’s book, “Love in the Library,” and the important work of Authors Against Book Bans. As a library kid and current library worker, I have experienced firsthand the transformative power of library access and the importance of inclusive and diverse storytelling. In and out of schools, libraries are vital to nurturing and uplifting the autonomy and sovereignty of children, which always has and continues to be a liberatory practice. We hope tonight’s show will inspire you right into your local library to check out some of the great books mentioned here or to put them on hold. Let’s listen in.    [00:02:06] Miko Lee: Welcome, Lorraine Nam, illustrator of amazing  children’s books. Welcome to Apex Express.    [00:02:13] Lorraine Nam: I’m excited to be here.    [00:02:16] Miko Lee: I wanna start with a question I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?    [00:02:24] Lorraine Nam: Who are my people? I would say creative people. People who are interested in having an open mind, and looking at the bright side of things, the beautiful things, people who are curious. The type of legacy that I bring I think is just my parents who are creative and then bringing that, to this new generation.    [00:02:57] Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing. I am, I’m looking at your beautiful face, and behind you is this, find your joy and, and it’s in lots of colors on this pink banner and in at the top we see opening up of a library door with Mychal Threets, who’s the author of this book, “I’m So Happy You’re Here: A Celebration of Library Joy.” I’m wondering if you can talk about your collaborative process with Mychal Threets.    [00:03:25] Lorraine Nam: The first impression that you have of writer and illustrator for a picture book is that they work really closely together, and that’s actually not the case. We work pretty separately, but I was very excited. Mychal wrote the words to this book and they were looking for an illustrator and my agent called me and she asked me if I was interested. I was very excited about the project. I signed up for it and we worked pretty separately. We connected on Instagram, but he pretty much had no art notes, everything was pretty much whatever I was open to. Then we met for the first time and we got our very first copy of the book and we met in New York.    [00:04:10] Miko Lee: And what was that like?    [00:04:12] Lorraine Nam: Um, amazing. He is exactly who he is in his videos.    [00:04:18] Miko Lee: Can you share for our audience who he is and a little bit more about him, just in case folks don’t know.   [00:04:24] Lorraine Nam: The book calls him a librarian ambassador. He describes himself as a reader, a lover of librarians or the number one fan of libraries. This is his first book and he’s also the host of Reading Rainbow on PBS. We met at the New York Library, public Library for the first time, and he’s just so nice, very kind. Honestly, it felt like we already knew each other just because we had been talking through the publisher about the book.   [00:05:02] Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing. It’s so beautifully illustrated and you have a incredibly diverse,, amount of people in the book, both racially but also physically, and I really appreciate how you encapsulated that. I’m just wondering what inspired you to develop this specific imagery for this book?    [00:05:22] Lorraine Nam: Yeah, so one of the only stipulations in the art notes was that he wanted to have a diverse group of people attending the library. People of all ages of all color, all sizes, all disabilities. That seemed like a no brainer to me because I just know the message that he puts into the world. The only difficult part was narrowing down the cast. There’s all these different types of people and just trying to figure out who to focus on. I wanted to make sure that you still see the same group of kids over and over. So it felt like you were following the along throughout the day, while still having lots of diversity and lots of different types of people.    [00:06:11] Miko Lee: Had you set what the cover was gonna be at the beginning or did that come after you had already finished the whole book?   [00:06:19] Lorraine Nam: Oh, that came much later. We pretty much had the art for the interior nailed down, and then we were working on concepts for the cover. I knew from Mychal’s social media presence that maybe he didn’t want to be the poster cover of the book. He wanted to be about the library goers and the people rather than himself. And so I was kind of towing that line of like obviously people wanna see him, it’s his first book. They’re such huge fans, and so like how much to put Mychal in and how much to showcase him, as well as showcase like all the other people who go to the library.   [00:07:02] Miko Lee: He definitely does have a joyous kind of ebullient vibe to him. I recommend for audience to check out his socials because he has this, you wanna listen to him. He’s so inviting and I love the poster behind you because he is saying, like, “welcome, come into the library. This is my world.” And you also made him look so cute. Really looks like a cartoon version of him. So sweet. In your artistic process, I’m wondering what helps you define the style of art you utilize? I’m thinking about the paper cutouts that you did for a tale of two princes. What is it about the work that inspires you to select that type of style?   [00:07:43] Lorraine Nam: I actually had a very winding path to the style that I have today. So the style that I have today is very much layered. It’s painted, a lot of it is painted. And then I cut it out and then I glue and collage different elements, and then I scan everything in and enhance certain aspects through Photoshop. But a lot of it started actually in wanting to make a physical book. So it was with book binding and then with book binding, because that’s just a technique to produce a product, it was what goes in those pages and that’s when I started doing cut paper. So just silhouetted, cut paper. And I was doing that for a long time, just cutting out rice paper to make silhouettes. I wanted to tell more of the story and depict people. So then I started making paper cut [laughs] sets. So I would build —almost like Legos— a whole set of paper buildings and paper people and paper objects that are three dimensional. And then I would photograph them. And then from there, I landed in this more 2D, but playing with still technique and texture and layers.    [00:09:10] Miko Lee: Wow, that’s so interesting. Can you share a little bit more about your artistic process? Do you start at a certain time of day? Do you only work at night? Do you have a whole studio set up?   [00:09:20] Lorraine Nam: well, For the book projects because there’s such a timeline to ’em and they’re very specific. I’ll do very loose sketches on Post-it notes. They’re readily available and then you can stick two of them next to each other to make a full spread. I use these post-its, and then I would just fold them in half and use that as like very quick pencil drawings. And then if I had something that I liked, I would just go in and pen. But they were still very small. So it was more about looking at silhouettes and composition. And then I would print, it’s a very old school technique, but I would print out all the text for the book and cut ’em out. And double sided tape and just stick them on to see where the text should be on the page and where it could fit. I would just do that manually until I had something that I liked a little bit more. Then I would start creating digital, like line drawings.    [00:10:21] Miko Lee: And are you lining this all up on a wall or putting it on the desk?   [00:10:26] Lorraine Nam: Um, so they’re in like a notebook.    [00:10:29] Miko Lee: Oh, you put ’em in book format?    [00:10:31] Lorraine Nam: It’s all the spread. So it should take about two pages basically. You should be able to look at it and look at it from like an eagle eye perspective of what the entire book will look like and what the flow will be like, and if there’s closeups or this is like a far away saying, you get more of the like, setting of the library.   [00:10:52] Miko Lee: And with the font printed out really small so that it’s on the bottom of that Post-it note.    [00:10:56] Lorraine Nam: Mm-hmm.    [00:10:57] Miko Lee: Wow, that is so fascinating. And what is it when you’re eagle eye-ing, what are you looking for?    [00:11:04] Lorraine Nam: I’m pretending that I’m a kid looking at a book for the first time, with zero context and maybe zero reading level skill and just looking at the pictures and seeing if I can spot the same character and if there is a story that follows along, because this is a library book where it doesn’t talk about specific people. I wanted to be able to follow each character in the book and see what their day was like in the library. So when they first came into the library, what they were doing during the day, what friends they made, and then maybe them leaving or, you know, a resolution of some kind, like their parents are checking out symbols at the library.    [00:11:52] Miko Lee: the concept of having the character go throughout the book. Was that in the instruction or was something that you created.   [00:11:59] Lorraine Nam: That was something that I wanted. Because I know looking at picture books, the pictures can also tell a story where, the words, it might not be in the words. So I wanted there to be more of a layered storytelling through image.    [00:12:18] Miko Lee: I appreciate that as a mom. I remember when my girls were little, they would always say, where is that rabbit on the page? Or where is that thing? And so being able to track a character all the way through, is quite delightful. It adds another dimension for the multiple readings. You mentioned before about how you didn’t really meet Mychal, the author of the book until the very end, and I guess that’s common as an illustrator and you’ve worked with so many different experts in their fields from, physicist Neil Degrasse Tyson to Skater Nathan Chen. How is their very different fields, how does that impact your art making?    [00:12:57] Lorraine Nam: It’s actually the most fun. It’s what drew me to illustration in the first place. I love being able to do like a deep dive and a specific subject that I wouldn’t necessarily have gravitated towards and do that research. I actually do go to the library. I start the process at the library and I look at all the books about that particular topic, and then see what other people have done. And so working on the book for Neil deGrasse Tyson, it was so much fun looking at different how space is depicted the idea of galaxies and making that tangible and real for kids. And then for Nathan Chen, I was already a fan before I got the project, so it was very easy. But watching the videos, seeing all the different techniques and for his book it was more looking at sports books. Because he’s such a unique person in his specific field in figure skating that there weren’t very many books on figure skating and most are of a female portrayal. I was looking more at sports and how people show different types of movement, , and show like form. And the more technical aspects that are very, very, very specific and very critical to those things.    [00:14:32] Miko Lee: And how did that manifest into your book?    [00:14:35] Lorraine Nam: Um, a lot of drawings of like, the breakdown of his jumps and trying to figure out can a child do this jump [laughs]? And also doing a lot of research ’cause he’s a very private person. His book is not about him, it’s not a biography, but it’s also loosely based off of him. You know, I have two other siblings. If I had a book based off of me, I want my siblings to be involved and represented in that as well. So I included his family, even though they’re not a huge part of the book, his siblings are not like big characters. But they’re still represented in there. So he can still be like, oh that’s my family. This is based off of my story.   [00:15:32] Miko Lee: So when you’re doing these approaches, like including Nathan’s family or in the library book, making sure characters go all the way through, is that something you have to check in with the writer about, to see if they’re okay? Or is that something that you just do and then you submit and you see if they like it?   [00:15:50] Lorraine Nam: That’s something that I do, that I find joy in and see. Usually the first eyes on my sketches are the publisher and the art director. And I actually have no idea what, at what stage they really share the sketches, if it’s like at a more finalized stage or if it’s an early on one, but I usually just go with my own ideas and see what they think about it.    [00:16:20] Miko Lee: Wow. I didn’t know that you could have that much say into it. That’s lovely. You talked a little bit about using the library for research. Gosh, I imagine that Neil deGrasse Tyson, there’s so much research on it, that must have been a deep dive. I’m wondering what the library meant to you as a child.    [00:16:38] Lorraine Nam: Yeah. I grew up as a big reader. The library for me it was a magical space that I wasn’t really sure what it was. My parents, because they grew up in Korea and moved here to the States, there was a big language barrier between us and they’re also very not talkative people. They just took us to this place one day and it was our local public library and it was right before closing and we were able to check out as many books as we wanted in whatever type of book that we wanted. I felt like that was magical, that there was no limit to it.    [00:17:19] Miko Lee: My last question is, what are you working on now?    [00:17:22] Lorraine Nam: I’m working on a few books, actually. I’m juggling a few, but they’re all very fun and different. I’m doing a book about a boy dreaming of flying, being a pilot. So I think that will be a really fun imaginative book.    [00:17:43] Miko Lee: What is one of your books that you would’ve liked to read to your younger self?    [00:17:50] Lorraine Nam: Mm, I probably Wei Skates On, the book with Nathan Chen. ‘Cause his story is about overcoming obstacles and being disappointed. And just feeling frustrated and upset. And I feel like that’s an important lesson even in adulthood. It’s not really resolved through words. It’s more of like the, everyone is there for him, his family is there for him, and they all just want him to enjoy what he’s doing and to not care about winning or losing.    [00:18:33] Miko Lee: Lorraine Nam, thank you so much for chatting with us about your work and about the library as a magical place, appreciate talking with you.    [00:18:42] Lorraine Nam: Thank you so much. I had so much fun talking with you.   [00:18:45] Miko Lee: Welcome, amazing award-winning children’s book author Uma Krishnaswami, I’m so happy to have you here on Apex Express.   [00:18:54] Uma Krishnaswami: Miko, it’s my pleasure to be here.    [00:18:57] Miko Lee: I wanted to start with a question I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?    [00:19:05] Uma Krishnaswami: What a wonderful question. Who are my people? My people are children who are, my ideal readership is the eight to 12-year-old group. I write for children. I’m not particularly thinking about audience when I begin writing. But at some point I want my readership to feel validated, whether they recognize themselves as being in my stories or my stories are offering them a window into a world that they are not immediately familiar with. So I would say those are my people.    [00:19:45] Miko Lee: And what is the legacy that you carry with you?    [00:19:48] Uma Krishnaswami: I grew up in India. The year that I was born India had been independent for all of nine years. So I carry very much that colonial legacy. I also am an immigrant to two countries, early in my adulthood to the United States and about 12 years ago to Canada. So my legacy is one of moving and finding new roots, finding community. Those are the things that I try to carry forward in my stories. When I began writing, I lived in the US and I started writing when my son was born. So there I was with a little brown baby and I went looking for books that would represent him and I didn’t find them. And I think that is what made me think in my early thirties that, real life people could write children’s books because of course the books I had read as a child were all written by people from England and many of them were dead. I kind of thought you had to be dead and British to be a writer. So yeah, it’s complicated, isn’t it? All of that works into, what you think of as, as your legacy. Having done this for 30 plus years now.    [00:21:03] Miko Lee: And you’ve written so many beautiful books. Tell us about a little bit more about that first book.   [00:21:09] Uma Krishnaswami: So the very first book, it was called Stories of the Flood. I realized very quickly that I didn’t really know what I was doing. I looked to folk tales and traditional tales as a way to teach me about story. My second book called The Broken Tusk Stories of the Hindu God Ganesha. That is the one that I consider as the book that taught me how to write. I had a wonderful editor [unintelligble] Thorpe at a small press in Connecticut, Linnet Books. She told me to lean into story and to see myself as a storyteller. In a way, every book I’ve written has taught me how to write.   [00:21:47] Miko Lee: Can you tell us about your favorite book as a kid?    [00:21:52] Uma Krishnaswami: My favorite book as a kid, it would have to be Winnie The Pooh.    [00:21:58] Miko Lee: And what was it about Winnie the Pooh that enamored you?    [00:22:01] Uma Krishnaswami: I came to it very early and aunt had traveled to England and she brought me my copy of winnie the Pooh in the House of Poo Corner. And I read them, sitting in very Indian gardens, sometimes up in trees. I spent lots of time up in trees and I took my own geography and placed it over the geography of the book. , So that for me, the a hundred acre wood had lime trees and banyan trees and possibly mango trees. It didn’t occur to me, until much later when I read an Enid Blyton reader. I had my moment of disillusionment with Enid Blyton and that’s when it really occurred to me that there was an us and a them in, in some of the storytelling I was consuming.   [00:22:49] Miko Lee: What age was that where you recognized that?    [00:22:51] Uma Krishnaswami: My post-colonial moment?    [00:22:53] Miko Lee: Yes.    [00:22:54] Uma Krishnaswami: I might have been a 11.    [00:22:56] Miko Lee: Oh, wow. And were you still living in India at that time?    [00:22:59] Uma Krishnaswami: Yeah, yeah. 11 was a very formative year for me. My grandfather passed away, so it sort of brought mortality , into the framework for me. Also that was my year of disillusionment with Blyton. ’cause I read The , river of Adventure. And the villain in it had my name. He was called. Uma, Raya or Raya Uma or something like that. And yeah, I was just shocked. Just totally shocked. It was pure coincidence, I’m sure. She probably just, pulled the name out of the air and plunked it in. But. I began to notice that he was described as dark skinned and he was described as cunning. All this language that had slid right past me before began to be apparent. So, yeah,    [00:23:47] Miko Lee: I love that. That is so amazing. This name, like what? That’s my name as the villain.    [00:23:53] Uma Krishnaswami: I’m the Bad Guy. No, I’m not.    [00:23:56] Miko Lee: And all of your books are such a wonderful clap back to that because you have a multitude of characters and so many different worlds. Initially reached out to you because I started reading book Uncle this trilogy of books that are so lovely. Can you first share a little bit about what the Book Uncle’s Trilogy is about.    [00:24:16] Uma Krishnaswami: Okay, so it didn’t start out as a trilogy. It didn’t even start out as a book. It started out as a short story and then it didn’t quite fit. It wasn’t a picture book. It seemed to have more layers than that, so it kind of grew. But what started Book Uncle and Me was I was visiting my parents in India. At the time, and I was on this very busy urban street and there was this kid sitting on this on the, on the sidewalk. Um, it was kind of a broken brick sidewalk, and she was sitting cross-legged right in the middle and she was reading book and she was just oblivious to the crowd going around her and the. Buses on the road and there were, you know, random goats and dogs running around and she just was ignoring everything and she was absorbed in her book. And I remembered that I had been that kind of reader as a child. There was an election going on at the time as well, and I thought, I wonder what would happen if I put those two things together. And that is how Book Uncle came to be.    [00:25:14] Miko Lee: And then there was just, you wanted to live in those characters more, so you ended up writing additional books?    [00:25:20] Uma Krishnaswami: Hmm and that’s a very good question. And actually no, I didn’t, I thought I was done. I wrote Book Uncle and Me back in, I’m say 2009, 2010, something like that. I probably started it in 2010. Um, it got published originally in India in 2012, I believe. And then it was picked up by Ground Wood in Canada and published in Canada and the US so North American edition in 2016. And I thought, you know, I’m done. I’m writing other things. And then come the pandemic and we’re all in lockdown. And like a lot of writers, I was doing, um, many, many, virtual. Presentations and programs. Um, and I did something through the North Vancouver Public Library and, there were kids zooming in from, you know, some from home, some from their bubbles, some from classrooms, whatever. And we were talking about book uncle and one of the kids, I think in third grade maybe, she said, Are you gonna write a sequel? And I am just joshing, right? I am. I said, yeah, should I? And they’re all going, yeah, you should. And you should write three because you’ve got three characters you should give them each a [story]. And I’m like, all right guys i’ll think about it. I absolutely will but not really taking it seriously. And then as often happens. the session ended and, you know, there we were all in lockdown going nowhere. And I thought maybe, maybe there’s something there. Maybe I could return to that. And in a way I was kind of intrigued because I hadn’t, had never thought about a trilogy and I was interested in how that would play out. Um, and it was kind of a writing challenge to myself, but honestly, once I started writing Birds on the Brain, which was book two it just kind of, I hesitate to say wrote itself ’cause I, that just seems, you know, so kind of woo woo. But, um, it did, it did. Uh, the, the kid came in and she took over and then a bird flew onto the rooftop and there I was on my way. So that’s the story of, of how that that happened. In retrospect, I’m really sorry I didn’t ask that child’s name because I would’ve absolutely loved to have acknowledged her in the book. But thank you child from North Vancouver, whoever you are.    [00:27:40] Miko Lee: That is so amazing. That’s by request, by audience request. You fulfilled this goal of a trilogy and and I I love that they even said, not just a sequel, but a trilogy.    [00:27:52] Uma Krishnaswami: Oh, they were. Yeah. They had it. I mean, they had, then they, they figured it out, which was really lovely.    [00:27:58] Miko Lee: And those, that trilogy is really geared, as you were saying to the second and third grade audience and I So many of your books are written around kids that can make a difference. What is it about that age that appeals to you and that motivation to show them how they can change the world?    [00:28:16] Uma Krishnaswami: I think they have this really, strong sense of what’s fair. It’s the age at which, you know, you start pushing back against what you see as small unfairnesses in your life. Parental restrictions quite often, or older siblings. You’re pushing back. You’re doing a little bit of finding who you are. And I think that uh, you begin to get a sense of awareness of the big world outside your small circle. And I think also one of the things that drives me, with writing to this age is that, I feel that it is so unfair that grownups, the adult world, has created so much injustice. And we just kind of expect the next generation to step up and step into it and, and do the best they can. and it just, it doesn’t seem right not to at least give them the wherewithal to think about that. And they do, they have children have voices and their voices matter. As we found out with, the climate strikes. I mean it really was young people who brought those messages out into the world and forced us to think about them and talk about them. So, I think that we owe children that.    [00:29:34] Miko Lee: So which of your books would you want to read to the second or third grade Uma?   [00:29:43] Uma Krishnaswami: [Laughs] Maybe Book Uncle and Me. Because I think there’s a lot of second and third grade Uma in that book. I was a compulsive reader like Yasmin. I would’ve absolutely read a book every day for the rest of my life if I’d had that many books available to me. I didn’t. So I read the ones I had over and over again. I lived in an imaginary world, quite a bit of the time.   [00:30:06] Miko Lee: Speaking of having access to lots of books, I’m wondering what your relationship was like to libraries, both as a child and then now.    [00:30:15] Uma Krishnaswami: I’m a proud and inveterate library goer. I put holds on things. I go browse on shelves. I download eBooks and audio books. I always have a pending list. I’m very, very grateful for libraries and also for librarians whom many of whom I have come to know over my life and am immensely grateful for. I did not have access to libraries much as a child. We didn’t have a public library system that was free and available and open to everybody. There were the kind of unofficial lending library types that I feature in Book Uncle and Me. There are sadly fewer of them now, but you still find them on street corners in India. I remember taking a book and giving one and then getting one back in return. That was, that was part of my life in some of the places we lived.   [00:31:07] Miko Lee: Did you know an actual book uncle?   [00:31:10] Uma Krishnaswami: I didn’t actually pay much attention, to the people who handed those books out. I was much more, focused on the books I was getting. There are characters who I’ve seen who have run these things. I once had somebody email me and say, I’m a book uncle. This is what I do. So that was really nice.    [00:31:31] Miko Lee: That’s sweet. I wanna roll back and talk a little bit more about your artistic process. I’m wondering if you, as a writer, as illustrator, you can sometimes be in your own world, and I’m wondering what your process is.   [00:31:43] Uma Krishnaswami: My place is right here. This is my office room, and I’m standing at a treadmill desk, and usually what I will do, is when I’m writing, I will turn that on very, very slowly. I usually start out at the idea stage with a notebook and a pen. I have fountain pens with very varied colors of ink, and I use those always to write my initial notes and questions about a new story idea. I don’t go to the computer and the keyboard until the idea has started showing up quite a few times. In, perhaps in a few iterations, almost as if I’m actually pushing it away at first, you know, saying, don’t scratch up my window until you are developed a little bit more. I’m not going to, indulge, the initial shallowness that usually the first idea is often not what it’s gonna end up being. I question that, and sometimes this is gonna sound really crazy, but, if I write those questions many times over in different colored inks, the answers begin to break out in clumps. Once I’ve begun to think, okay, well maybe I, I know what I could do with this. That’s when I open up a file.    [00:32:56] Miko Lee: Ooh share a little bit more about the different colored inks. How does that work?    [00:33:00] Uma Krishnaswami: Um, right over there, there’s a whole row of inks, and right over here is a fountain pen, and I have several of them. I change the ink colors, and when I get stuck with something, it really does help to write those questions to myself, in a journal notebook. I have a terrible handwriting, so I used to really worry about when people gave me nice notebooks. Little empty notebooks with beautiful glossy pages. I used to think, God, my writing is so awful. I feel like I’m desecrating this beautiful book. I’ve gotten over that and it’s actually really helpful to physically write that thought for me is very, very useful.   [00:33:39] Miko Lee: And when you see the different colors, is it like words that stand out to you, that you piece together? Yeah.    [00:33:44] Uma Krishnaswami: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or sometimes I’ll write something, in a paragraph, and then I’ll break it up and write it in a lineated way, maybe in a different color. You just start seeing things differently when you try different ways of thinking about the same thing. It’s all a trick to get the kind of managerial editorial mind out of the way. You need her later, but I don’t need her when I’m trying to shape something.    [00:34:13] Miko Lee: The, for the creative process. Mm-hmm. The multiple colors just helps    [00:34:16] Uma Krishnaswami: Right.    [00:34:16] Miko Lee: Pull you into that.    [00:34:17] Uma Krishnaswami: Yeah. It just loosens, it loosens my mind up so I don’t feel so focused on the objective. I often tell myself, I think Linda Sue Park used to say this. You don’t have to write a whole novel. You just write a scene. And so that’s what I tell myself, I’m a sceneist. I’m not a novelist. I’m just a sceneist. I write one scene. And that’s all I need to write. Then I will write another one and so forth.    [00:34:38] Miko Lee: And do you use sticky notes or something to keep those scenes separately or    [00:34:42] Uma Krishnaswami: just all kinds of things? I use sticky notes. I use little boards on which I draw plot lines, and then I write, notes to myself. I use the journal notebooks. I’ve started using Scrivener and I actually have found that helpful but not until I’ve got something, in enough shape to plug things in.   [00:35:01] Miko Lee: Oh, I love hearing about artistic process. That’s so fascinating. I appreciate you and you’re showing your beautiful pen and everything. It’s so great.    [00:35:08] Uma Krishnaswami: It’s messy, right? One of the things I’ve learned is to lean into the messiness and not try to organize things too fast, too early.    [00:35:16] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. Giving yourself the time for the creative juices to flow.    [00:35:20] Uma Krishnaswami: Yeah. Yeah.    [00:35:21] Miko Lee: So my last question is, what are you working on now?    [00:35:25] Uma Krishnaswami: I’ve actually just got done with edits on a picture book, which is going to be called Mango Sun. And then I’m working on another picture book. That’s just gone to my agent. It’s got to do with wildlife rescue and conservation in the Himalayas. It’s an Indian setting, but a very different setting from Mango Sun.   [00:35:44] Miko Lee: And most of the ideas from your books are just coming from your imagination or something you read or where are you pulling from to get your inspiration?    [00:35:52] Uma Krishnaswami: Everywhere. Absolutely everywhere. I have a picture book that came out of a trip that we took to Galapagos and will it ever take form? I don’t know, it’s about the rewilding of an island , and how when you bring one species back, the other one follows. Some of it’s from my childhood. I have two picture books that came out of a memory of planting a mango seed and watching it grow.   [00:36:21] Miko Lee: Sounds lovely. Two of my favorite things, mango and Sun [laughs], appreciate you joining us and sharing about your artistic process and your amazing book. And I’ll put a link to your website in our show notes. And thank you so much for joining us and talking to us about Book Uncle and your work.    [00:36:37] Uma Krishnaswami: Miko, thank you so much. It’s really a delight.    [00:36:41] Miko Lee: Welcome, Maggie Tokuda Hall to Apex Express.   [00:36:45] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Thank you so much for having me.   [00:36:47] Miko Lee: I’m so happy to have you talking about, your wonderful book, love in the Library. But first I wanna, ask you a question I ask my guest, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?   [00:37:01] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Oh man. I feel like I have so many tribes that I identify with in different ways. , Gosh, who are my people? I mean, generally speaking, angry queer teenage girls very much my people. Tired Jewish aunties also my people. Exhausted Asian mothers also my people, [laughs] librarians and book people are my people. I, I, I don’t know. I feel like I have so many people that I feel an affinity toward and an affection for, and kinship with.    [00:37:38] Miko Lee: I like you naming all of those because we’re multifaceted people and there’s many different things that make up who we are. Yeah. And what is the legacy that you carry with you from all these tribes you’re a part of?   [00:37:50] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: From my mother, I carry a legacy of honoring the truth, like really believing that children are owed the truth and that part of being an adult is being courageous enough to tell it. but I also come from like a vibrant family of Jewish storytellers and I feel like I have that, that I carry with me as well.   [00:38:17] Miko Lee: Thank you. So you’ve written the book Love in the Library about Tamma, a woman who works at a library in the Minidoka concentration camp during World War ii.    [00:38:28] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Mm-hmm.    [00:38:28] Miko Lee: And she meets George and falls in love. Can you tell me about how you very first heard this true love story of your grandparents?   [00:38:40] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: I can’t actually, I don’t remember the first time I heard this story. It is a story that I’ve just always known. like for me it’s very much a fabric of how I came to understand the world and my place in it. Like sky is blue, grandma and grandpa met in a prison camp, you know, normal stuff. And so, um,    [00:39:00] Miko Lee: so it’s just part of the family lore?   [00:39:03] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Yeah. Like, it’s not something my mother was ever shy about telling us. And I truly do not remember the first time she talked to me about it because I remember being very small and already feeling like I knew that story.    [00:39:15] Miko Lee: Okay. Then how did you decide to turn it into a children’s book?    [00:39:19] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Yeah, so, in 2017 when President Trump took office for the first time, in his very first executive order was to sign the travel or Muslim ban where he was banning people from Muslim majority countries from coming to the United States. It was clear immediately that he was gonna be using his time and power to enact a white supremacist agenda. I knew I needed to do all the things that we’re supposed to do. Like I called my representatives and I wrote my postcards and I marched and I did all those things. But I really did try to audit what I had to offer, particularly children in that moment. That was unique to me. And I realized I had this beautiful story in my own family, not just about the cruelty of those sorts of policies, but also the resilience and power of the people who they target.    [00:40:05] Miko Lee: Ooh. Fired up the, that truth teller part of you just became ready to go.    [00:40:11] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Yeah.    [00:40:11] Miko Lee: Um, speaking of the impact of politics and what’s going on and how that relates to books, I know that in April, 2023, Scholastic wanted to include love in the library in a collection around AANHPI folks, but they wanted to edit your amazingly fierce author’s note. Can you share with our audience what happened?   [00:40:34] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: I mean, first of all, thank you for calling it amazingly fierce. In my author’s note, I talk about how what happened to my grandparents wasn’t an isolated moment in American history and that it was racist, which I think is a, a reflection of a very basic understanding of that history. It, it’s not, a creative extrapolation and. Scholastic offered to license the book, but my licensing offer came with a caveat, which was that I had to remove that entire paragraph. Um, and I had to remove the word racism from the text altogether. And so I decided to say no and say no publicly. And for about three months, my full-time job was talking about Scholastic, but also about our obligation to tell children, American history, honestly.   [00:41:19] Miko Lee: And they wanted you to get word of the word racist. Did they say why?    [00:41:24] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Yes, they basically said, the language is too strong and we fear that some teachers won’t bring it in for fear of this political climate, which is the nice way of saying like, we have to sell into places where book bans are happening and we think that this language is too incendiary for people who would ban books, which to me was always really, Unsatisfactory logic, because books about Japanese American incarceration are banned all the time and they don’t use as strident of language as I use in that author’s note. baseball saved us, gets banned. They called us, the enemy gets banned. This story is already considered dangerous by the people who would ban books, so they were trying to hold a center that just doesn’t exist.   [00:42:04] Miko Lee: And so what did you end up doing?    [00:42:07] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: I said no and said no publicly, just with like, sort of the hope of, sparking some intra community conversation among kid lit creators about what sort of edits are appropriate to offer people. I would, I still posit, that that’s a completely inappropriate edit and that’s about sanding down people of color’s, history and perspective to cater to a white audience. And I was unwilling to do it. and Scholastic initially released like a very, incomplete apology. And then when they received a lot of pushback about that, they offered a much more full apology. They offered to meet with me and my publisher, the CEO of Scholastic and the head of their education divisions, which is the division that made me this offer. And then they also had me work with a restorative justice consultant, for like a year to try to figure out what they could do better. But what I said to them at the end of that time that I told them, I was extremely transparent that I would be talking about this publicly. So I don’t feel bad saying exactly what I said to them here is, I think the exact same thing would’ve happened. It just would’ve happened more politely.    [00:43:17] Miko Lee: Wow.    [00:43:18] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: I don’t think that they actually reexamined what their role is as a publisher of Books for Children under Unconsolidated authoritarianism. They just figured out how to ask people to make racist edits more, more, uh, gently.    [00:43:33] Miko Lee: And you worked with them for one year with an RJ consultant.   [00:43:36] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: I mean, like, not every day, but we had, you know, meetings over the months. And she was a smart lady. Like I don’t think that she, you know, did nothing. I think she was trying her best, but I think that, you know, big institutions are very slow to institute cultural change and that that on the one hand has to happen from the top down, but also can’t happen from the top down.   [00:43:56] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.    [00:43:56] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: And so I genuinely believe that there CEO was trying his hardest to, to make a meaningful change, but without them really stopping and examining and questioning what their own role in this moment is in a critical way. I don’t think that they are going to be able to have answered what I would’ve required for them to, for me to then accept their licensing offer. ‘Cause they made it again.    [00:44:25] Miko Lee: So at the end of the one year long, they made the licensing offer to you again?    [00:44:29] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Yeah. I think just to be kind, just as like a gesture of like, listen, we know we messed up. We’d love to license your book and I still said no because I don’t think that they made meaningful enough change.   [00:44:40] Miko Lee: Hmm. Wow. I love this. What did you learn from this experience?    [00:44:47] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: That it is very unusual for people to blow the whistle within publishing, even when the examples are egregious.    [00:44:54] Miko Lee: Tell me about your connection with Authors Against Book Bans. Did that come out of this experience with Scholastic, or were you involved actively involved in this prior to that?    [00:45:05] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: No, it absolutely came as a result of my experience with Scholastic. Authors against Book Bans is an organization that I’m currently the president of. We’re over 5,000 book creators across the country who are united under a single point of view, which is that the government shouldn’t be allowed to tell us what to read. That’s what we believe and that’s what we fight for. And I got involved in founding the group along with specifically David Levithan, who’s a really wonderful young adult and middle grade author, who had put together most of this group before I even came on board. Cause we realized that authors needed a central place to fight. There was no one organizing specifically us. And so Authors Against Book Bans was born out of necessity and, the dearth of a place that existed for us. Everyone would call on us to come speak, but it was extremely ad hoc. We weren’t making any kind of unified movement, even though we all so passionately agree that, you know, book bans are anti-American and in violation of our First Amendment rights. And, you know, the freedom to read is a necessary freedom for a free and democratic society. and the reason I’d reached out to David initially was because I was hoping to put together something like Authors Against Book Bans, but just by myself, which is, maybe a testament more to my own personality [laughs] problems than anything else, but I was like, I’ll just figure it out. And he was like, you know, I’m actually assembling a group that’s trying to do this. Would you like to be a part of it? And that’s how I came aboard. But I had gotten interested in it because as a result of the Scholastic fiasco, I was invited to give the keynote speech at the Idaho Library Association in 2023. I gave my little speech that I’d been giving a lot then, um, about how we have an obligation to tell American history honestly. And, people were like, the reaction was so emotional to it and so profound and like, I thought it was a good speech. I’m proud of the speech, but like it, something else was going on and I could feel it. And I started talking to the people who were there and when these librarians started telling me what they had gone through, just for making books like mine available to children, stalking, harassment, death threats. One of them had been followed home, like really frightening, scary things happening to them on like, in some cases a daily basis. I realized like I was gonna be a part of this fight. That was that. I wasn’t gonna let them fight alone. And so, you know, in, in my advocacy work now, Idaho still holds like a very precious place in my heart because I think that it’s a very forgotten state. When we think about places that need help, when we think about places that have been gerrymandered, when we think about places where there are so many good people who are disenfranchised and unable to affect meaningful change in their state level, governments. That have just been absolutely run roughshod over by Christian nationalists. We should be thinking about Idaho. They have, I think, like the highest neo-Nazi population in the United States. so it’s a very direct line between my grandparents being incarcerated to the activism that I do now. And it wouldn’t have happened without Scholastic’s offensive offer.   [00:48:22] Miko Lee: I did not realize that librarians were personally being assaulted or attacked or followed. For books.    [00:48:29] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: You should watch, the librarian’s documentary that’s now streaming on PBS. Okay. Um, it’s common across the country. Amanda Jones, who’s an Authors Against Book Bans member no big deal, is a librarian in Louisiana that can’t go grocery shopping in her own hometown anymore for fear for her own safety because she has taken a stand to like refuse to remove lgbtq plus books from her school library shelves. It’s really dire. And I think people understand objectively that book bans are a problem in our country. I do not think that they understand how violent that this fight is. It’s a really dark and hard time to be a librarian. So if you’re a person who supports libraries, you should be thanking your librarians and letting them know one-on-one and in person face-to-face that you appreciate the work that they do, because there are people who are making their lives really difficult.    [00:49:25] Miko Lee: Can you talk about what the library meant to you as a child?   [00:49:30] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: I mean, honestly it was like a part-time babysitter. You’re a kid, there’s a library. Entertain yourself, you figure it out. I think the first time I really felt like a sense of belonging in the library was in middle school. We moved from LA to Northern California and I had to start a new school in seventh grade. I didn’t really know anyone and it was embarrassing to not have people to eat lunch with and things like that. So I would eat lunch in the library. And the librarian was really kind about it. Like she never called attention to it. She never embarrassed me about it. She would let me sneakily eat in there, even though there was a very specific rule that you weren’t allowed to eat in the library. she put, the Enchanted Forest Chronicles on an end cap once, and that’s how I found them and ended up reading the entire series and that was really when I became a fantasy reader and you know, my debut novel was a fantasy novel. I still feel very much like a fantasy reader kind of at heart, and that started there. I mean, we never know when libraries are going to save a kid’s life.    [00:50:39] Miko Lee: Can we go back to how you ended up writing this book about your grandparents’ experience? Sure. And what was the first spark for you to say, I wanna turn this into something. It’s a family lore, but I want more people to know about it.   [00:50:54] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: I mean, the Trump administration thing,    [00:50:56] Miko Lee: it was truly that. You said it was    [00:50:57] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Yeah. Trump was it    [00:50:58] Miko Lee: Trump got elected. People should know this happened.    [00:51:00] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Yes. What do you have to tell children in this moment If they’re Muslim, they’re scared, and if they’re not, they need a way to understand what it means to feel afraid. Both of those things need to happen at the same time of like, you have to offer comfort to the children of the marginalized. You have to offer perspective to the children who have the privilege not to feel that fear. And so I have this story and what I love about this story is. I know that children are capable of holding the complexity of this story is both very romantic and very sweet, and also the circumstances it happened under were completely unfair. That’s the kind of logic children are able to hold, and they should be given the opportunity to hold that kind of complexity because it’ll serve them for the rest of their life because most of most situations we confront are complex.   [00:51:57] Miko Lee: And how were you able to eke out more details of that story? Did you do family interviews or was it more from your imagination?    [00:52:05] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: My mother is a journalist and she kept my grandmother’s journals from the time she was in Minidoka. So some of it comes from my grandmother’s journals. Some of it comes from working with my mother to make sure that it felt accurate, tonally and factually. ‘Cause she was not gonna let me publish a book that was nonsense. I always say it’s Truman Capote true. ‘Cause the situation, the sensory details, all that stuff real, but the dialogue is made up. The dialogue is art. The dialogue is a way for children to understand how they might’ve been feeling. They never had succinct, quick conversations like this about their humanity and how they felt about each other. It was a long courting process, and so, you know. That part is made up for children,    [00:52:49] Miko Lee: but you, but you did include actual quotes from her journal too, right?    [00:52:53] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Yes. The book closes with her words, not mine.    [00:52:57] Miko Lee: Can you give us those final words?    [00:53:00] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: The miracle is in us as long as we believe in beauty, in change, in hope. Which are words she wrote while she was imprisoned in Minidoka.    [00:53:11] Miko Lee: And how does that resonate with you in the time of now?    [00:53:15] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: They are words that I desperately cling to in the hope that I can see them become manifest.    [00:53:23] Miko Lee: And what are you working on now?   [00:53:26] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Making Authors Against Book Bans as operational as possible.    [00:53:31] Miko Lee: And what does that look like?    [00:53:32] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: In late 2025, we became a nonprofit corporation. We have fiscal sponsorship under EveryLibrary, which is a really wonderful advocacy group that’s a combination [501](c)3-(c)4, which means you can make tax deductible donations to them, but also they do overtly political work. And so now we can receive tax deductible, donations and continue to do the overtly political work that we do. We are an unapologetically political organization. We are more than happy to help get people elected who fight for the freedom to read, and we are delighted to show the door to people who would stand in our way of that freedom.   [00:54:09] Miko Lee: And how can people get more involved in your work?    [00:54:13] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: They could absolutely go to authorsagainstbookbans.com and make a donation. We need it [laughs]. We are one of the only organizations that receives donations that exists for the sole purpose of fighting book bans. Most every other group in our space have an angle that book bans affect them, and so they fight against them, but that’s not their only purview. It is our only purview. So if it is something that you were interested in fighting, then you could make a donation to us. I would suggest signing up to be on the email list from EveryLibrary because they mobilize everybody, not just authors and book creators. And if you are a book creator, self-published, traditionally published, we don’t care. Then you should sign up to be a member of Authors Against Book Bans and you’ll get calls to action every Friday.   [00:55:07] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for sharing with us about your book and educating us about the work you’re doing and appreciate hearing from you. Thank you for joining us.    [00:55:16] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Thank you for having me.   [00:55:28] Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night..    The post APEX Express – 4.9.26 – Library Joy appeared first on KPFA.