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• Dare to THINK DIFFERENTLY with Harvard Professor Gerald Zaltman (ep. 213) 25.05.2026 55นาที

  What if the biggest limit on your leadership isn’t your skills or your strategy…  but how you THINK? Harvard Business School emeritus professor Gerald Zaltman joins Andrea to discuss his latest book, Dare to Think Differently, and the six research-based techniques that help you tap into the creative power of your subconscious mind. Gerald’s work spans cognitive neuroscience, art therapy, and linguistics. His insights are as relevant for leaders navigating complex decisions as they are for anyone trying to have a real conversation across a divide. We cover the six qualities of an open mind, including serious playfulness, befriending ignorance, and asking the right discovery questions, plus why imagination may be the most underused leadership skill, and how humility, courage, and discipline work together to make real thinking possible. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube CONNECT WITH GERALD 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gerald-zaltman-112634162/ 📖 Read Dare to Think Differently: https://amzn.to/4emjID5 BOOKED MENTIONED 📖  Consilience by Edward O. Wilson – https://amzn.to/49vQPRq 📖  An Immense World by Ed Yong – https://amzn.to/42z9054 TRANSCRIPTION Gerald Zaltman: An adaptive mindset means you have to be willing to reflect on how you’re thinking and assess its suitability to the current situation, and that’s what I mean by an open mind.  Andrea Wojnicki: That was Harvard Business School Emeritus Professor Gerald Zaltman. I am really excited about this episode. The truth is, I’m excited about every episode of Talk About Talk for a variety of reasons. For this episode in particular, I’m excited to introduce you to one of my favorite people on this planet. If you haven’t met him before, Gerald Zaltman is one of the wisest and most generous folks that you will ever meet. I’m sure you’ll agree after you’re done listening to this episode.  Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk.  Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki, and I’m your executive communication coach. My goal with this podcast is to coach you to improve your confidence and your credibility at work so you can achieve your career goals. You can learn more about me and what we do at TalkAboutTalk if you go to TalkAboutTalk.com. Daring to Think Differently in a Rapidly Changing World  Okay. As a leader, you may have noticed how open-mindedness creates exceptional decision-making, but how exactly do you ensure that you have an open mind? Great question. This episode is gonna challenge you to think about how you think. It will encourage you to think twice about your own thought patterns, about your assumptions, about your biases. This episode may even dare you to think differently, which happens to be the name of Gerald’s latest book, Dare to Think Differently. When I learned recently that Gerald was writing another book, I scooped it up right away, devoured it, and then I contacted him to set up an interview, and here we are, finally. Instead of summarizing this episode with three insights like I typically do at the end, instead, I’m gonna challenge you to consider each of the six research-based techniques that will help you tap into the creative power of the subconscious. Yes, there are six. In our conversation, Gerald and I go through each of these six, and you can also reference them in the Talk About Talk podcast show notes on whatever podcast platform you’re on. Again, my challenge to you is to consider which one or two of these six techniques you’re gonna commit to try experimenting with to cultivate your own open mind.  About the Guest: Harvard Professor and Thinking Expert Gerald Zaltman  Let me tell you a little bit about Gerald now, and then we’ll get into this. Gerry, or Gerald Zaltman, is an emeritus professor at the Harvard Business School. Decades ago, I had the great privilege of learning directly from him in seminars, and then he served on my dissertation committee. Gerald also served as an executive committee member of Harvard’s Mind, Brain, and Behavior Interfaculty Initiative. You’re gonna see that this is a theme with Gerald, interfaculty, cross-disciplinary thinking. Over his career, Gerald pioneered the use of tools and insights from cognitive neuroscience, art therapy, and linguistics to understand subconscious customer thoughts and feelings. He’s a co-founder and senior partner in the research-based consulting firm of Olson Zaltman Associates, or OZA, whose clients include some of the world’s most respected firms and brands. Here we go. Thank you so much, Gerald, for joining us here today to talk with me and the Talk About Talk listeners about thinking about our thinking.  GZ: Well, I’m delighted to be here, and I’ve been looking forward to this, uh, ever since you raised the possibility. I’ve always enjoyed our conversations, in particular your questions. They always make me think and often differently as well.  AW: Thank you so much for saying that, Gerald. That really means a lot. Okay, here’s the first question. It’s really the origin story for the book. What made you want to write this book? What was the problem that you are trying to solve? Is it related to AI? Is it related to the polarization of our society? What’s the origin story here?  GZ: The book was conceived after I had been spending a lot of time investigating why it is that people, even within the same family, same workspace, people who would otherwise be very close friends or had been close friends, suddenly found themselves not talking with one another or speaking to one another. And that’s because certain topics, uh, arose that were highly politicized. And to hold a contrary position or even a position that you’re actively thinking about was received as a very concerning character flaw by others. And I was experiencing that toward others, even in my family, you know. And we were becoming what I, I thought of as a family of strangers, just socially. There were certain topics that were off limits, and they were growing in number, and the consequences of putting them within the limits of a conversation were increasingly painful. And as I was working on that, I wrote a, a paper on that. I realized that ultimately, what I was addressing there are contrasting, even clashing, not thinking styles, but clashing thoughts. And I felt that there was some other problem operating. And the problem that I found operating to produce that was also the problem I was finding in companies with executives, that there were pockets of thinking that were considered, and, and ways of thinking that were considered, in effect, sacred, and that needed some investigation. And so I decided to follow my favorite tool, the one that I find suits me best when I’m pondering, trying to understand the origins and nature of a problem, and that was with ZMet. And I began, uh, with a team of people doing ZMet interviews with executives on how they approach messy or difficult problems, which were the ones that were often very divisive within a firm. And eventually, I thought, since I’m working so hard on this, I might as well turn it into a book, which I find a very effective device for disciplining yourself and forcing yourself to understand what you don’t yet understand, to identify that. So that’s kind of a long story to the origins of the book, but that’s pretty much how it began. AW: I remember having conversations in your office, Gerald, about the fact that you would encourage me to think about something and then not worry if I can’t solve it, and walk away and work on other things, and my brain would be non-consciously focusing on whatever that problem was. And also, directly related to what you just said, you encouraged me to write as a way of thinking. Don’t wait until you have all the answers to start writing, and I found that to be so true, especially now I’m writing a book and I’m introducing the readers to some processes that I coach people on, and actually, as I’m writing the book, I’m coming up with better processes, right?  GZ: The book is better because of my having that very same style of writing. It’s a way of interrogating yourself, and you can be unforgiving and not suffer as a result. So just a very productive, uh, device.  AW: So it’s about being open-minded. Back to the executives that you mentioned you’re thinking about, uh, when you were doing the ZMed as well. You’re, you said it was a problem you first noticed with your family, and then business executives were also experiencing the same thing, or you diagnosed the same thing. And in my experience, executives and leaders often believe that they already are good thinkers. And actually, in fact, many of them are what we would call, like, good thinkers, smart people. I realize I’m opening a can of worms here, Gerald.  Open-Mindedness Requires Rethinking Your Own Thinking  GZ: I think most people are pretty good thinkers. I mean, most of, most people have. They’re not in jail, they’re not having problems with drugs or, you know, whatever. They’re navigating a complicated world successfully, and actually more than that. They’re often making major contributions. So the thinking is fine. The problem is the environment in which their thinking no longer is. If you go to the… Or let me back up a step. Thinking is something that is highly personal. I mean, it’s an expression of who you are. You don’t think of it always in that way, but it is. So when I get that criticism for something I’ve written, you know, I do take it personally. I also know enough to realize I shouldn’t, and probably a lot of other people would have the same response, so I’ll act on that feedback. But the difficulty is that if you read the World Economic Forum’s publications, is the world is changing rapidly. The environment in which we practice our thinking is not stable. It’s changing at a very high rate. The different sectors where this change takes place are connected, so it’s kind of like COVID, you know? It can spread. A problem in agriculture can, uh, have a major impact on transportation or broadcast media. It’s just a networked world, and it’s a rapidly changing world. And we consequently need to have an adaptive mindset to adjust our thinking in that world. An adaptive mindset means you have to be willing to reflect on how you’re thinking and assess its suitability to the current situation, and that’s what I mean by an open mind. Am I thinking properly for this context? And often the answer is no, or some change is needed, and you have to improve how you think. But you’ve got to be willing to not treat your default thinking process as sacred. It’s not. The world doesn’t care much about that, and that’s not gonna change to protect my sacred way of thinking. That’s what I mean, you have to be open-minded. You have to be willing to think about your own thinking, not to mention someone else’s.  AW: So as I was preparing for this interview, Jerry, I was thinking about the context of AI and how myself and a lot of my clients are trying to use AI to, actually, to improve our thinking, but just generally to improve our communication, using it as a, a productive tool. And yet, myself and most of the people that I talk to don’t wanna use it to generate ideas before they’ve generated their own ideas, at least because they don’t want it to bias their thinking. That’s exactly one of the thoughts that I, that I had. It’s like AI will bias our thinking. And then it did occur to me as I was going through your book, that our own brains are biased, right? And so this is more than just having a growth mindset. This is about really being conscious of how we’re thinking in the context. GZ: I think it’s strange. Bias gets a bad reputation. You know, there are clearly instances where that’s deserved, but in most cases, you can’t get by without bias. Bias is what makes you unique and uniquely successful in a particular category of issues. You don’t wanna give those up, and you can afford to be biased if you’re always willing to assess your own thinking and whether or not a certain preference in thinking has outlived its usefulness. But to know what you were saying, it was today, and I’m trying to think of the source. I put it aside to read this evening, and  I’ll look for it and send it to you. But it was an evaluation of executives in terms of how good they were or how effective they are in being a partner to AI, a collaborator where they have… And they had these criteria for assessing a really good collaborator. And most of the executives, no matter what the level was, scored rather poorly on this evaluation. They’re not good partners with AI, which is just a very interesting, uh, commentary on how effective we are in using whatever it is that AI might be able to give us.  AW: So, back to the, the benefits of, uh, these executives and leaders thinking about their thinking, right? Understanding maybe what their default patterns are and the risks of not doing so, which we can also get into. I would love it, Gerald, if you could briefly list and summarize the six specific ways that you outline in your book, the specific qualities of an open mind, because I feel like this is gonna help us get some traction here. People say, ” Okay, it’s more than just having an open mind. What is it really?”  The Research Behind Open-Minded Thinking  GZ: Not everyone practiced all six of those, but across a set of interviews, all six came up, each about as prominent as the other in total, and they also exist not in a sequence. And this is where writing a book is very frustrating because a book is linear, and these qualities of mind are anything but linear. It is a system. But nevertheless, I’ll start with, uh, the first one, which is serious playfulness. Many decisions, uh, really have serious consequences, not just in profit sense, but, you know, human impact. And that can cause people to be fairly reluctant to be bold, to take bold action, because there’s a number of people, and you don’t maybe know who will be hurt, could be hurt in some fashion. But that somberness, especially if it is concerned with meeting my profit goals or sales goals for the period that can really inhibit you, it, from trying something different, thinking differently, and acting differently. So you need to introduce a kind of playfulness. And I have to admit, and I won’t spend this much time on the others, but I have to admit, that was a sober experience for me as a young man. I was working on some consumer economics, it, uh, teaching tools for high school students, and there was a school for the blind and the visually impaired nearby where I was working on this project, and they had expressed an interest to have someone come over and use the teaching module that I was developing for their students. And that was great. I went over for two days, spent two days, and I was thinking I was probably selected because I’m so empathetic. I can relate to people and understand, you know. So I mean, I was getting kind of a big head. And within the first half hour, um, of my glowing about my empathic abilities, someone came into the meeting with a blindfold and asked me if I would mind being blindfolded. And I remember thinking I would mind. You know, I get claustrophobia. I don’t… But of course, I said, “No, you know, you can do it.” And I was blindfolded for two hours, and we continued the discussion. I had to navigate my way to the cafeteria and around to the restroom, all of that stuff within two hours. And after two hours, the blindfold was removed. And I, I learned later that two hours is about the period of time a sighted person can be suddenly blindfolded without freaking out. And I could get that, but it had such a huge impact on me in terms of expanding my capacity to empathize, to identify with the students and the staff in that program. I consider that act, that putting a blindfold on a visitor or consultant, to be an act of playfulness. It was a way of introducing an element in a safe way that I needed to have exposure to, but in a controlled, you know, reasonable dose. And that has always stuck with me. So I was delighted when I saw this quality appearing so often and, uh, just spontaneously with, uh, executives. AW: Can you share any other examples that come to mind, Jerry, of, um, executives who benefited from serious playfulness? I’m curious. Is it typically role-playing?  GZ: It should be role-playing. My favorite personally is in a classroom or in a business meeting to have… This is when I try to teach people about mental models, and you have this construct connecting to that construct, and people are sitting there get, you know, shaking their head, they understand what the constructs are. Until you say, “Okay, you are going to be the variable or construct extravagant, and you over here are going to be the construct, uh, frugal,” which happen to be connected. They interact. And I said, “Go ahead and have a go.” And I’ll usually appoint someone to take notes, to monitor and interpret what’s going on. But the frugal and extravagant need to have a conversation. They do in real life in our heads as we go through that. That is a very effective device for having people understand there’s a lot more richness to the ideas that we have than what might be on a questionnaire or in an interview. That is the– Especially as these ideas share differences and similarities. W: Yeah. So much of our thinking is just surface-level, right? Serious playfulness is one way to get deeper. I guess all of these qualities are, though.  GZ: And it’s not that you have to have an immediate change as a result of the intervention or that exercise. It’s more just to kinda get people to realize there’s more in their mind, that even they are… Or more in other people’s minds than they allow for. I also like to make use of what I call the clairvoyant and, uh, wizard. You might have gone through that where I have people role-play each of those. Oh, that’s an effective device. Just trying to think of some other, you know, other easy, easy examples that people can imitate. AW: So Gerald, one thing that I’m thinking here is that this is like next level, uh, adoption of various roles that sometimes people assign in meetings. Like, you be the devil’s advocate, you be the customer advocate. This is like next level of that, right?  GZ: Right. You wanna push them a little bit beyond that so their own thinking has to imagine, and I can’t understate the role of imagination in all of this. And once you unleash the power of imagining, which I define as picturing that which is missing, you unlock a whole lot of good things. Imagination is probably the most frequent term in the book. I distinguish it from creativity also.  Why Creativity Begins with Curiosity, Playfulness, and Not Knowing  AW: So we’ve got serious playfulness, and this next one I feel like is, it may be a trigger for a lot of executives who may describe themselves and be described as others as someone who has authority and insight. The second technique for adopting an open mind is befriending ignorance.  GZ: That’s possibly the toughest one. I, I’m not sure, but it wouldn’t surprise me if we could rank these that would be the toughest one because, well, for the obvious reason. You, you’re being paid because you know something, uh, I mean, to put it in a somewhat exaggerated way. But have you ever seen… I thought about this the other day. I’ve never seen on a resume expertise in befriending ignorance. I mean, that’s probably the last thing you would ever list as an attribute, a quality. And it’s probably the first thing you’d notice if you were reviewing a resume, and I’ll wager your curiosity would go through the roof, and you’d wanna have that person in to do that. But in any event, ignorance is something bad. I mean, the label, you’re ignorant, or that’s ignorant, is about as pejorative as you can get in the, in the scheme of things. But where else do new ideas come from? I’m trying to think of some major innovation that didn’t have its origin in things that weren’t known. And if you’re going to be imaginative, it’s a term we throw around a lot, but if you’re going to be imaginative, and you think of it as picturing that which is missing, it really is picturing that of which you are ignorant. Uh, you don’t know it exists, or maybe no one else does.  AW: It, uh, reminds me of when you were training me on the ZMET technique, simply instead of asking a scripted question or assuming that I knew something and trying to lead the conversation, the technique of repeating the word– the person’s words back to them, encouraging them to elaborate, that I think that may be a way of befriending ignorance. GZ: You know, I mean, it certainly is a way of defining the interviewer’s ignorance because you don’t really know what the person means by guilt, or fun. Those things have so many different meanings, and that’s a good way to get them to handle your or, you know, my ignorance.  AW: But that is different from – I have the list in front of me on my screen here. The next quality of an open mind is asking the right discovery question. So repeating the person’s words back to them is a discovery question, but that’s not what you mean by that, right?  GZ: I hadn’t thought about that, actually. I think that would be a discovery, uh, question because you’re discovering or asking them to help you discover what they mean, and that helps them discover what they really mean by that term. AW: That’s true.  The Power of Better Questions and Chasing Curiosity  GZ: This is actually one of the most fascinating… I owe someone a chapter on this. Where do questions come from? Well, they come from what you don’t know, which is a good starting point. But I can’t find anything in the literature that talks about the cognitive origin of questions, where they– Literally, what’s the neuropathology of, uh, of a question. We know a lot about answers, but not a lot about questions. And breakthrough questions are questions that historically, a good friend of mine is working on this,  a colleague is pointing out, is in science, the person who comes up with a breakthrough question, a powerful question that threatens to, you know, could change a whole field, is generally ostracized in various ways, some conspicuous, some not. And for a while, people who were advocating what turned out to be breakthrough questions have a difficult social life and professional life. But where do your questions come from? We know about answers, but it’s hard to justify, hard to come up with a history of a question. And yet, without them, you won’t have answers. You can’t have an answer.  AW: We hear when people are talking about a phenomenon where there’s some skill or expertise associated with it that like, “I’m so ignorant about this that I don’t even know what questions to ask,” right?  GZ: Yeah. That’s a good phrase. I mean a good observation. I mean, not having a question is sort of the worst case of being ignorant. AW: So, I’m thinking about the context, Gerald, of innovation here, right? And how the incumbent, who you would’ve assumed would’ve come up with an innovation, often doesn’t because they’re not, I’m gonna use the word biased again, I’m not sure that’s the right word, but they’re biased by what they’ve already done and what they already know, versus this brand new company comes in and they’re solving for something else. They’re asking different questions, and then that innovation catapults the existing innovation from the incumbent company that everybody thought was on, on a trajectory of a success, right?  GZ: I think a question is a focusing device, and it’s a way of determining where your resources should be allocated to answer this question. And here’s where these things become synergistic, because you wouldn’t have a question if there was an answer readily available. And so a question is at the same time not only a neat device for focusing where you’re going to go, but it’s also an acknowledgement of what you don’t know and what your colleagues or others don’t know. So it’s a very powerful device. I think other things being equal, which they aren’t, I would always prefer a really solid question to a really solid answer because the solid question has potential. A solid answer- However important it is, has a more preordained or future is not as interesting as an unaddressed question. AW: I feel like this is one of the qualities that you’ve outlined here. Uh, they’re all relevant, but I feel like leaders and business executives maybe can particularly get traction on this one, asking the right discovery questions, right? Like we, we hear this sort of cliche advice that as you become more senior, you should be listening more and talking less and asking questions. So before we go to the next one, I just wanna ask you if you can elaborate a little bit, Gerald, on what do you mean by the right discovery questions? Is there, is there, I don’t know, like some sort of list of criteria of what makes a discovery question correct or right?  GZ: I don’t think there is an arbitrary set of criteria or an even a single criterion that makes it right. But the right question is not the wrong question. It’s the question that survives all the wrong ones, uh, and remains on the table. And so it’s the question that is evaluated in terms of whether its potential answer or answers, even if those are not clear, but you imagine this is where, again, imagination comes in. Yeah. This question, if we pursued it, there are many more opportunities, as I would view it. You know, the different answers that might come in, a richer context to play in than is another question. And so I say that’s the right question, but it’s also right in another way, and that is it has to have a caffeine element. It has to wake people up, and it has to be a question that makes everyone think, “Why didn’t I think of that?” And that is, I think, a constructive wake-up call to, to everyone who thinks that way. I often have, you know, had that experience with colleagues. They’ll have a question, and that’s, “Damn, I should have thought of that myself, and I didn’t. Why not?” I think there’s a, there’s this element that makes it right socially or communally in a sense.  AW: So simply put, it could be that the right discovery questions are the ones that make an impact, where impact is defined as making… I love, I love your caffeine-charged, uh, metaphor there, Gerald, but it’s about making people think differently and think about something in a new way. GZ: Yeah.  AW: Is thinking differently.  GZ: It, it, um… That’s right. It’s a surprise, actually.  AW: Yeah.  GZ: Um, right. That’s why I attach the word discovery to it.  AW: So the next quality of an open mind is chasing your curiosity. I know none of the words here are accidental, so why are we chasing our curiosity, and how is that different from befriending ignorance? GZ: Remember, these are, um, a system of things. They’re more than cousins to one another. They’re siblings in effect, and it’s hard to have one without the other is one of the big lessons that I learned from these interviews. But curiosity is actually on the decline in the United States, at least. I’ve seen published reports that measures curiosity, and that’s, uh, something that, that is apparently declining, and the decline begins somewhere around the fifth or sixth grade, according to some sources. So it occurs fairly early in life, and regardless of when it occurs, there’s a social contagion for it. And I worry about that, that colleagues aren’t sufficiently curious. There are times when I think I’m not, you know, sufficiently curious. I read very broadly, and I get frustrated, but I don’t pursue every lead I can’t that I find interesting. But chasing curiosity, it is meant to convey the fact that it’s elusive. It escapes us, and it’s partly because we don’t want to admit we don’t know the thing that we’re now curious about or that we don’t know how to interrogate with a question. Curiosity, if we ever caught the creature, what, what do we do with it? And that’s another problem. But I think curiosity, I think of it, I don’t know if I use this phrase in the book, but it’s the itch that you have to scratch, and it’s something that’s in a s- like that, it’s fairly visceral. You’ve got to feel it in a visceral way that would make you want to pursue it when everyone else is telling you that’s a dead end, it’s a blind alley, it’s, you know, that’s not something that a junior faculty member or an assistant branch manager would do or propose, and so forth. All those things are encouraging people to stay put, not to be pursuing their curiosity.  AW: You’re reminding me, Gerald, of an interview that I recently conducted with Michelle Budria, who started working the front cash at McDonald’s and worked her way up to CEO of McDonald’s Canada, and she worked in different countries in all different functions. But she shared with me some of what the factors that she believes built her success, and one of them was an insatiable curiosity, constantly asking her managers, “Why are they doing this this way? Why aren’t they doing it that way?” And she said at one point, one of her managers actually said, “Fine, I’m gonna give you this project. Run with it and show us.” And so she had, and has still, a genuine curiosity. She’s constantly looking for feedback, but also external to what she’s doing. She’s curious about why things run the way they run, why they are doing things the way they’re doing them, and this fueled her success. Yeah. Yeah. You’re not surprised. GZ: Yeah. Yeah, that’s… And chasing it, it also has, you have this relationship with it whereby it’s a bit elusive, maybe very elusive, but it’s yours to chase. You’re responsible. You’ve gotta catch it, and you don’t know even what it’s going to be, you know, when you finally get to it or catch up with it. You know, so there’s a relationship that takes a, a kind of, uh, dedication and a sort of mental endurance to– the conditioning to go after. AW: So, back to the point I made before about the every word here matters, it’s not an accident that it’s chasing your curiosity, not just chasing curiosity for the sake of curiosity’s sake.  GZ: Uh, yeah. Actually, just to kind of underscore that, I don’t wanna be chasing someone else’s curiosity. I wanna be chasing mine. I’m gonna run faster. I’m gonna feel better catching it if I, you know, if I can catch up with it. Being told what to do is something I’ve always resisted.  Panoramic Thinking: Seeing Connections Others Miss  AW: Okay, the next quality of an open mind is… Well, like you said, they’re all related. Uh, and I do want you to share why there’s an octopus on the front of the book, which relates to how these qualities are all related to each other. But can you describe panoramic thinking?  GZ: Yeah. There’s another word for it that doesn’t quite work for me, and that is multidisciplinary, and that has some obvious meanings and, you know, it’s, and it’s structured in an academic sort of way. But panoramic thinking is more than being multidisciplinary. It’s looking in diverse and seemingly unrelated fields that no one has ever thought would converge. My best current example, recent example, of all things, there is a phenomena out in space, very distant space, with this kind of like a cloud of things that they can’t quite capture or they couldn’t quite capture. And now, in a way which I’ve not yet found out, someone figured out that there was something in the design, nature’s design of the eye of a lobster, that provided a solution so that they found a camera that could take a picture there. And someone saw that the cloudy situation that, that was giving them trouble, part of what they also wanted to study, was comparable to the cloudy situation lobsters find themselves in two hundred feet or a hundred feet deep in the water, the deep water lobsters. And that the solution that nature provided with their vision may have relevance for that other one. That’s the last thing I would have, you know, thought about, but that’s panoramic thinking.  [00:40:31] AW: I remember when I was your student, Gerald, and you encouraged me to read in depth the academic research on gift giving, ’cause I was studying word of mouth and why people give recommendations or warnings about products and services that they’d experienced to their friends and family, and how to think about it, and kind of what mechanisms were at work. And you suggested along this vein of panoramic thinking. Now, certainly it’s not like interstellar phenomenon, and you know, the lobster’s eye, but the insights from the research that I did on gift giving certainly illuminated the phenomenon of word of mouth. So why, why do we give, how do we give, how do we feel about it when someone rejects our word of mouth, or they tell us that we’re not right? All of these things made a big difference in my understanding of the phenomenon.  GZ: If you were to look in the bibliography of Dare to Think Differently, and just kind of run down, looking at the titles of journals and books that are used to elaborate on or justify or give evidence for what managers are doing, you’ll find that there’s a very broad and extensive academic literature supporting what these guys were discovering on their own. And I used it to kind of give the managers, you know, a little more grounding and validation for what they were sharing with me. But they didn’t know that. They don’t know that. But take a look at the bibliography. You know, you’ll see it.  AW: I have, and I will look again. Speaking of bibliographies, this reminds me of another book that I read when I was taking one of your classes when I was a doctoral student, Gerald, and that was the book Consilience. Do you remember that?  GZ: It was E. O. Wilson, right? That’s right.  AW: E.  O. Wilson. Yeah.  GZ: Yeah.  AW: And I think that book, the, the thesis of that book is about panoramic thinking. Would you agree?  GZ: Absolutely. Yeah.  AW: Yeah. See, you made a, you made a huge impact on me, Gerald. You, you definitely impacted how I think. Okay, the sixth and last quality of an open mind is, and again, I wanna remind everyone that these are in no particular order, right? They’re certainly not a sequence, but the last one we’re talking about here is using a voyager outlook.  GZ: That’s, um, kind of my way of, of framing ambiguity, and you can see how it would fit with the others. But what’s a, what is a voyager? And I’m thinking of a voyager more in the, like the fifteenth, sixteenth century, even earlier than that, the Norsemen, and so forth. There is a willingness to go out to the unknown, to space that they’re ignorant about. I mean, the maps all had, at that time, in the early, early days, there be monsters. You know, there was a line drawn, and after that, no one knew what was there, but they, you know, guessed that there’d be monsters out there. I think managers, executives, but not them alone, really don’t like ambiguity, and I’ll comment on intelligence in a second. And, I don’t blame them. I don’t want to have something… We can all empathize with that. But if you’re not chasing curiosity into the unknown, if you’re not discovering what you don’t know, that is literally how you define the unknown, the lobster eye, for example, you’re gonna get stuck. And you’re just not gonna grow as a person or as a company. And I talk about it, my alternative to that was embracing ambiguity. That’s like, you know, embracing a leper. People wouldn’t– people were reluctant to do that. But it takes that kind of spirit to do all the other qualities in the, uh, of an open mind. AW: So I love that you re-framed or chose a term for this last quality of an open mind to make it sound more positive, like something we can strive for as opposed to something that we’re avoiding, right? Using a voyager outlook is something we would strive for versus we would avoid ambiguity. And you use the word spirit. So, back to something you said at the beginning, executives wanna be seen as intelligent, right? They wanna be seen as having insight, authority, and experience. And yet, at the same time, befriending ignorance, asking questions, chasing their curiosity, using panoramic thinking, and thinking like a voyager. Uh, this seems like it could be contradicting. I know it doesn’t have to be, but if, if you could share some, I think, advice, yes, Jerry, prescription for these leaders on how to think differently and benefit from this way of thinking in a way that isn’t gonna sacrifice their credibility.  GZ: You know, after I developed Z Met, I encountered or discovered why it works. It wasn’t beforehand. It’s, uh, even to this day, new things are coming to my mind to show that it has even more support as a basic method. But I, in moments of honesty, I, I didn’t know all that when I was, yeah, developing it. But one of the things that’s very important, every manager shares with all the staff that they work with, senior to them, junior to them, is that the mind works on the basis of analogy. And there are excellent treatises on this, you know, by really thoughtful people, that memory itself is organized analogically. We have memory files of potential analogous things to use when we encounter, uh, ambiguity, or we encounter something we don’t know, we can retrieve. What’s it like? I mean, that’s the first– You have three questions. What is it? What is it like? That’s when you begin to make progress. It’s maybe it’s like a lobster. I don’t know. Making that up. And then what of it? What do you do with it? But what’s it like? It’s a fundamental question when we’re making sense of a problem. Where else have we seen it? And so on. And I think that if a manager sort of not just worries about what something is and what do you do about it, but understands first what is it like, where else has this happened, they’ll come up with many more solutions or things to adapt or alter. And that’s where metaphor comes in, because metaphor is really the language of analogies, analogical thinking. And so I think they should leverage what they have naturally, which is the ability to think in terms of analogy. And a lot of problems will look a lot more trackable and solvable if they indulge in that. And that’s a kind of a natural thing, and they can leverage their colleagues and help them get them to participate. That’s a big lesson, and I think that intelligence is the ability to make sense of ambiguity. It’s not a paper-and-pencil test. It’s, uh, the ability to clarify what is amiss, you know, chaos. And using analogy is what a wise person does.  AW: So I’m trying to read the minds of the listeners here, and I can imagine they’re thinking that this is very compelling thesis, and I want to dare myself to think differently. So what are some specific, I was gonna say almost physical things? So asking questions seems like the low-hanging fruit. What are some things that they can do themselves, and also to encourage people in their organization so that they can really get some scale on the benefits of thinking differently?  GZ: I think I would resort to finding examples of serious play. A play gives everyone a degree of license that they don’t ordinarily have, and that’s very free, uh, and important, but is serious. You know, there’s a problem to be solved, and that’s where the clairvoyant and the wizard come in And I would ask first, I use those guys all the time, what would I have to fix? That’s the wizard. You know, if we went down this road, the clairvoyant is someone who sees the future. Okay, what do I anticipate is going to happen? And the two guys get together, people get together. There’s an issue of gender with that. I use it with my MBA class a lot. A clairvoyant apparently has feminine qualities and a wizard, masculine qualities.  AW: That’s also true of a lot of archetypes, right?  GZ: Uh, but I would, I would make serious use of those characters and other devices for serious play, ro- you know, role-playing. Humility, Courage, and Discipline: Final Lessons on Thinking Differently  AW: Okay. You know, I’m gonna try this even within Talk About Talk, a very small organization. I’m gonna try serious playfulness, assigning the wizard and the clairvoyant, and we’ll see what happens. I’ll report back to you. Can I ask you the three rapid-fire questions now, Sherry?  GZ: Okay.  AW: I know I’ve asked you these questions before in the past when I interviewed you. We’ll see if it’s changed. Question number one: Are you an introvert or an extrovert?  GZ: Uh, introvert.  AW: Do you know what you said one time when I asked you that question? You said, “Can I just be a vert?” Okay. You’re an introvert.  GZ: It shows you how, it shows you how retiring I am.  AW: Yeah.  GZ: Yeah.  AW: It’s supposed to be rapid fire, Andrea. Okay. Okay, question number two: What are your communication pet peeves?  GZ: A dry mouth, looking out at an audience if I’m the communicator. I, I really don’t like those situations. A third would be, I guess, I’m not very forgiving for someone who can’t hold my attention. So if I leave a speaking engagement, and I have a lot of ideas to pursue, it’s usually because I wasn’t paying attention or they didn’t hold my attention, not that they gave it to me, so that’s not a good sign.  AW: I remember, I know this is not very rapid fire, but I do remember in your office we were talking about how some of the academic presentations that you and I attended together weren’t always that interesting. You told me, or you encouraged me to watch their presentation techniques, their communication, uh, and maybe learn that if I wasn’t gonna learn the material that they were presenting. Okay, question number three: I’m really curious about this one, given how broadly and extensively you read. Is there a book that you’ve read or a podcast that you’ve listened to that you find yourself recommending a lot lately? GZ: Yes. There is. Ed Yong, and it’s all about other forms of life here on Earth and how amazingly sophisticated they are and how extraordinarily developed one or another is with various senses and other capacities, and it’s a very humbling read. I think humans are really pretty impoverished in a sensory sense compared to almost any of these creatures. He goes through spiders, frogs, and bats. It’s become a classic book, I think.  AW: I will definitely read it based on that recommendation, Sherry. And it reminds me of, I think, a theme of this conversation, which is really about humility. I’m curious if you agree with that, and maybe you can share your, your final thoughts with the Talk About Talk listeners about daring themselves to think differently. GZ: You’ll see in the book frequently I’ll mention together the need for humility. That is always the first one. The courage, courage is another one, and discipline. It’s hard work. It takes discipline. It requires being bold, you know, being censored in some sense in various ways, making other people uncomfortable, not deliberately, but just inadvertently. And humility, which is you have to see yourself as someone with so much to learn. There’s no space for arrogance.  AW: I love that. It’s a beautiful place to end, Gerald. Especially listeners know that I’m a huge fan of the power of three. So, in addition to all of the inspiring insights that you shared, I guess if we can all take away an even increased respect for humility, courage, and discipline, and doing our best to succeed on all of those dimensions. Thank you so much, Gerald. I really enjoyed this conversation The post Dare to THINK DIFFERENTLY with Harvard Professor Gerald Zaltman (ep. 213) appeared first on Talk About Talk.
• The Top 7 Presentation Mistakes Leaders Make (ep. 212) 11.05.2026 13นาที

  Are your presentations always falling flat? I’m breaking down the 7 most common presentation mistakes leaders make and exactly what to do instead. Whether you’re presenting to your board, your team, or a room full of strangers, these mistakes are probably showing up in your work right now. The good news? Every single one of them is fixable. We cover everything from the prep mistakes that undermine your message before you even open your mouth, to the delivery habits that quietly erode your authority on stage. Including what to do when someone asks you a question you can’t answer. If you want to walk into your next presentation with more confidence, more clarity, and more impact, you need to avoid these mistakes. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube TRANSCRIPTION Andrea Wojnicki: Your audience is probably full of busy people with many, many distractions in their heads. If you can get them to pay attention and internalize one main message, then that is a huge accomplishment. How are your presentation skills? In this episode, you’re going to learn the top seven presentation mistakes, and importantly, specific advice on how you can avoid or correct these mistakes so you can deliver truly impactful presentations at work. Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk.  Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach at Talk About Talk, where I coach ambitious leaders and aspiring leaders to communicate with confidence and credibility so you can achieve your career goals. You can learn more about what we do at Talk About Talk if you go to talkabouttalk.com. You’ll find plenty of free resources there, plus information about my keynote speaking, corporate workshops, small group master classes, online courses, and more. I also have a free biweekly email newsletter where you can sign up to get free communication skills coaching from me every two weeks in your inbox. Okay, let’s get into this. Mistakes #1 and #2: No Roadmap and No Audience Insight  The top seven presentation mistakes and how to correct these mistakes to ensure that you deliver impactful presentations at work. Mistake number one is not providing a roadmap. Have you ever been sitting in a meeting or maybe in an audience when someone stands up to give a presentation and they start talking, and you have absolutely no idea where they’re headed? That is what I’m talking about here. Big mistake. Have you ever pressed play on a podcast episode without knowing what it’s about? No way. Exactly. Instead, here’s what you should do. Start with the headline, then tell them what you’re gonna present. Here’s the thing about business communication that we all need to remember, and this goes beyond presentations. Even in things like commenting in a meeting or even writing emails, suspense is way overrated in business communication. You need to get to the point. You need to start with the headline. In the context of a presentation, provide a roadmap. For example, you could say, “I’m gonna summarize our Q2 financials and then highlight three key insights that we need to focus on to improve our results in Q3.” Or you could say something like, “I’m gonna share with you seven common presentation mistakes and tips for what you can do instead.” Do you see what I did there? Do you get the idea? Sharing your headline and then providing a roadmap helps your audience understand why they should pay attention. It also shows respect for your audience, which leads me to the second mistake. Mistake number two is not understanding your audience. By now, we all know that understanding your audience is critical to capturing their attention. Maybe you’re teaching a workshop, so you ask the workshop organizer, “Who’s gonna be in the audience? How many people will be in the room? What career stage are they at? Are they junior, mid-career, or are they senior leaders, or is it a mix? How old are they? Does this audience skew male or skew female, or is it mixed?” Here’s the thing about this list. These are demographics, and that’s table stakes. You need to go deep on your audience if you wanna make an impact. Do they care about your topic? How much do they know about your topic? What do they care about? The more you know about what they know and what they care about, the more your message will resonate. Beyond these psychographic dimensions, it’ll also help if you understand exactly what’s going on in the moment for these people in your audience. What time of day is your presentation? Are they hungry? Are they tired? Will they be rushing in after fighting in morning rush hour traffic? Or are you presenting at 11:30 AM, when all they can think about is what they’re having for lunch? The other question is, who’s presenting before you, and what’s happening after your time on the agenda? You get the idea. The more you understand about your audience, yes, their demographics, but also what they know, what they care about, and how they’re feeling in the context of your presentation, this will all help you immensely. Okay. So we’ve covered mistake number one, not providing a roadmap or context for your audience, and mistake number two, not understanding your audience. Mistakes #3 and #4: Trying to Say Too Much and Being Generic  Mistake number three is trying to say too much. Instead, you need to focus. Focus on one key point. Your audience is probably full of busy people with many, many distractions in their heads. If you can get them to pay attention and internalize one main message, then that is a huge accomplishment. So ask yourself, “What’s my one main point here?” And then focus all your content around that one point. This is also a great way to help you recover if you lose your place in the presentation. Just remind yourself of your one main point. And if you happen to be one of those people who tends to ramble on and go off topic, I have an insight to share with you. In my experience, folks who ramble and go off topic are typically very generous They’re the ones who want their audience to know everything that’s going on inside their head, and truly, this generosity is a lovely motivation. But if you really want to be a generous presenter, you do the work of focusing your main message and the main learning instead of imposing that work on your audience. That is how you make an impact.  Okay, moving along. Mistake number four is being generic. Think of this mistake as sharing the presentation that anyone could give. Here’s the test. Could your presentation be delivered by anyone if they had the script? If yes, you need to personalize it. You need to customize the content so that you are the only one who could give this presentation, or at least you’re the one who could best deliver it. Here’s your question: What insight or perspective can I uniquely share here? Most of the folks that I coach who are preparing for significant presentations haven’t even thought of this before, but this insight can truly take your presentation to the next level. Ask yourself, “What can only I add to this topic or this presentation that no one else can?” Make it personal. When you customize your talk in this way, you’re actually accomplishing two things. One, you’re making it more interesting and impactful, and two, you’re also gonna boost your confidence. Okay, moving on. We’ve covered four mistakes so far. The first mistake is not providing a roadmap. The second mistake is not understanding your audience. The third mistake is trying to say too much or not focusing your point. The fourth mistake is being generic and not customizing or personalizing your presentation.  Mistakes #5 and #6: Reading Your Script and Going Overtime  Mistake number five is reading. Yes, as in reading your script. This is a very easy one to fix. Never ever under any circumstances do you bring your script on stage. Okay, maybe if you’re a celebrity presenter or a politician and you’re delivering an important speech, and you have two teleprompters, but otherwise, do not bring your script on stage. Why? Because in all likelihood, you’re gonna end up reading it. Depending on the context, you can certainly bring up a note card that outlines your main points in case you lose your place, but do not read your typed-out script, and don’t bring it on stage with you. And related to this point, do not read your slides. Got it? No scripts on stage. Next mistake. Mistake number six is going into overtime. If you’re giving a forty-five-minute speech, you need to rehearse it until you can nail it in forty-four minutes. If you’re delivering a TED Talk, you’ve got exactly eighteen minutes. Going over time is disrespectful, and it implies lack of preparation. Back to my point about generosity. It might be the case that you’re just trying to be generous and share as much information as you can, but that’s no excuse here. You need to be focused, and you need to respect the timeline. A few months ago, I was asked to deliver a keynote at a conference, and I was given twenty minutes to deliver what the organizers had seen me deliver previously in one hour. So I focused on the script, and I practiced it beginning to end. The first time it took forty minutes. The second time it took thirty minutes. And the third time it was just under twenty minutes. I knew exactly what I could say and what I needed to cut. And when I went on stage, guess what happened? Muscle memory kicked in, and I was able to deliver it within the short twenty minutes. Do not go into overtime.  Mistake #7 and Final Recap: Navigating Q&A with Confidence  Now, the last common mistake that people make when they’re delivering presentations is in the context of the Q&A. This is the question and answer period that sometimes happens at the end. What do you do when someone asks you a question, and you don’t have an answer? The common advice here is to respectfully say, “I don’t know, but I’ll get back to you.” And here’s the thing: that’s fine, but I have a much better suggestion. Before you get out on stage or in front of the room, remind yourself of your expertise. You do not know everything, but you do have unique insights and experiences. You do have unique and valuable knowledge and expertise. It’s inevitable that someone will ask you a question that you don’t have an answer for. Instead of responding with the cliché, “I’ll look into it and get back to you,” we hear this all the time, right? Consider this instead to be your chance to reinforce your unique expertise or your personal brand. Instead, try something like, “That is an insightful question, something I haven’t considered before. Based on my expertise, based on what I do know, here’s what I’d say.” And then you tell them, based on your experience and your expertise, what your opinion is or what your perspective is. And depending on the context, you might also follow up with, “And I’m gonna do some research and find the answer to this question and confirm with you as soon as possible.” But sometimes your perspective on something, given your unique experience and expertise, is all you need. Okay. That’s it. Those are the seven common mistakes that I see people making when they’re preparing and delivering impactful presentations. You may have noticed that the first four mistakes, numbers one through four, are all related to preparation, things that you can fix when you’re preparing, and number five, six, and seven are about your delivery. Okay, so you’re planning your presentation. Mistake number one is not providing a roadmap at the beginning for your audience, not telling them why they should pay attention. Mistake number two is not understanding your audience in depth, not going beyond simple demographics. Number three is not focusing your main point, not being generous by doing the hard work yourself, of clarifying your main point instead of imposing that work on your audience. Number four is not customizing or personalizing your presentation. In other words, being generic. Now you’re on stage. You’re delivering the presentation. Mistake number five is reading your script. Do not bring your script on stage. Number six is going into overtime, not respecting others’ time. And number seven is handling tough questions with, “I’ll find an answer and get back to you,” not grounding your answer in your unique expertise and experience. You can find a summary of these seven mistakes on your device in the show notes for this episode. Take a look and review them there. And whatever platform you’re listening on, I encourage you to hit subscribe so you can continue to improve your communication skills. Thank you for listening to Talk About Talk, and talk soon. The post The Top 7 Presentation Mistakes Leaders Make (ep. 212) appeared first on Talk About Talk.
• Oversharing: “Revealing” with Harvard Business School Professor Leslie John (ep.211) 27.04.2026 44นาที

  How much should you share at work? How personal can you get?  What’s ok and what’s off-limits? This question of what to reveal at work is exactly what Harvard Business School Professor Leslie John addresses in her book Revealing: The Underrated Power of Oversharing. Listen to learn the psychology behind why we conceal, a practical framework for deciding when to reveal, and what to do if you find yourself crying in a meeting. We also talk about emotional literacy and what it means that so many high-achieving people, Leslie included, struggle to answer the question “how do you feel?” If you’ve ever defaulted to “I’m fine” when you’re not, this episode is worth your time. BOOKS MENTIONED 📖 Revealing: The Underrated Power of Oversharing by Leslie John — https://amzn.to/4mG1kqR 📖 Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay Gibson — https://amzn.to/4tmJVG2 CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube CONNECT WITH LESLIE  🌐 Website: https://www.lesliekjohn.com/ 📝Her Quiz: https://www.lesliekjohn.com/quiz TRANSCRIPTION Leslie John: It feels like overcommunicating, but it’s just communicating like you’re gonna feel like you’re overcommunicating, but turns out people can’t read your mind and your motivations. And so if you don’t tell them, then they’re gonna like make these all kinds of inferences that probably aren’t right.  Andrea Wojnicki: If you’ve ever grappled with whether you should say something personal or not at work, or maybe you mention something personal or revealing that you regret saying, well, you’re not alone.  About the Guest: Leslie John, Harvard Business School Professor and Author of Revealing That was Harvard Business School Professor Leslie John. Professor John recently published a book called Revealing Her Award-Winning research appears in top academic journals and the media, including the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and the Economist. Like me, professor John was born and raised in Canada, and here’s an interesting fact about Professor John that does not come up in the interview before entering academia, she was an internationally trained ballet dancer. Yes, you heard that right. She was a ballet dancer.  Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk.  My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki, and I’m an executive coach at Talk About Talk. Please just call me Andrea. I’m here to help you learn to communicate with confidence and credibility. To learn more about Talk About Talk and what I do, please click on the links in the show description. And don’t forget to hit subscribe. You can also go to TalkAboutTalk.com where you’ll find lots of resources and see all the different ways that you can learn to boost your own communication skills. Just go to talk about talk.com. Now, let’s jump right into my conversation with Professor Leslie John. In this conversation that you’re about to hear. You are gonna learn why we might have a bias to omit or not reveal things, a framework for how we should think about whether to reveal or conceal, and what to do if you find yourself shedding a tear at work. Thank you so much, Leslie, for being with us here today at Talk About Talk to talk about revealing and oversharing. LJ: Thanks so much for having me.  Why “How Are You?” Is Harder Than It Sounds AW: So, as I was reading your book, something occurred to me, Leslie, I was thinking that one of the big questions that I try to help my clients answer is when they’re asked the question, tell me about yourself. For you, I don’t know if you agree with this, but for you, I was thinking maybe the big question is how are you  LJ: To an extent, it’s how are you? You know, it’s interesting because I do think that in order to answer that question, like it seems like a very simple question, but. As I learned more about it than about myself as I wrote the book, actually, I realized that it actually requires some emotional literacy, and I realized that sometimes the issue isn’t, when someone doesn’t answer, doesn’t reveal, doesn’t say how they are, sometimes it’s not just the superficial. Like not answering. It’s actually often much deeper is they don’t even know how they’re, and I say this because this is what happened to me because I was talking to my therapist, I don’t even know what I was fetching about, but I kept saying like how other people felt or what I thought. And he said, well, how do you feel? How do you feel? And he kept saying, how do you feel? I’m like. I until finally I said, what is a feeling? And then he, I know. So it seems so simple, but like I, I realized, I’m like, I don’t even know. I’m not naming feelings. I don’t know what a feeling is. And then he gave me this tool called, it’s an emotions wheel that helps you kind of articulate what you’re feeling so you can say it.  It helps you expand your emotional vocabulary. I actually have one in my book. It’s a, I made my own because all of the ones I was finding were like too complicated for me. I needed that much remedial help, so I made an even simpler one. But yeah, this question of like, how are you, it can be a lot, a lot more complex than you think, and it can expose that you don’t actually really understand yourself, at least in my case.  AW: Yeah. So yesterday I was, um, in an executive education program where an emotional intelligence academic was actually talking about that wheel. So I know, I know exactly what you’re talking about, and thank you for simplifying it because it can be overwhelming. But what I’m hearing here is that if someone asks how you are, maybe one of the reasons that we kind of go on autopilot and say, fine. That’s the default answer. I’m fine. How are you? Or, I’m good. How are you? You’ll hear people say, maybe part of the reason that we answer that isn’t just because we don’t wanna reveal so much about ourselves. It’s actually because we don’t even know ourselves.  LJ: Exactly. Exactly. That’s what I discovered, and that was wild. I’m like, I’m 45 years old, and I don’t know the, I need a freaking feelings wheel. Like it’s wild. But I mean, I think like. You know, different generations have honored different things. And my parents generation, it’s like IQ or bust. Um, I don’t even know how much my mom believes in psychology, even. It’s funny because, um. One of my jokes, or I don’t know, quips about parenting is that every parent screws up their kids. The goal is to screw them up in a different way than how you are screwed up.  AW: That resonates Leslie. Yeah, that resonates. LJ: And so, so for me, like with my kids, I’m always asking them like, how do you feel? How do you feel? And I’m sure I’m screwing them up in other ways, but. By God, they will know their feeling and they’re so, one night my kid said he was three when he said this, he said, mama. I love you, but sometimes I don’t like you. And I’m like, that’s, yeah. I read amazing read that’s in your book. It’s amazing. Like. AW: Yeah.  LJ: I could not, I only like just started being able to do that.  AW: That’s very cool.  LJ: Or they’ll say, I’m feeling frustrated. I’m like, what?  AW: You’re talking about your feelings?  LJ: I know. And then I’m like, great, great. Like, I’m like celebrating their frustration. I’m not happy. You’re frustrated. Just the fact that you know what it is.  AW: So they’re very lucky. I’m gonna say to who’s attuned to that. And maybe they will grow up to be the senior leaders who are not only sharing their emotions in a productive way, but also encouraging their teams, too. Crying at Work: Risk, Perception, and Controlling the Narrative Towards the end of your book, you talk about, um, leadership and how emotions and revealing and oversharing shows up in the work context. Um, and at the end, I’m just staying on this topic of emotions. I get asked about this all the time, Leslie, like people will say, I’ve welled up, and people can see that I’m about to cry. Or they’ll say like, no, I was a blubbering mess. Or they’ll say, under no circumstances. Will I shed a tear at work, even if I am like whatever it is, exhausted and overwhelmed, or whatever it is? So what’s your take on that?  LJ: Oh yeah. I’ve got a lot of takes. So I guess I get why people are like, under no circumstance, I will. I show that I’m crying, or want to cry, or feel like crying. I get it because. There is research on this, and as you probably would expect, especially when women cry at work, they, the risk is that they’re viewed as like hysterical and overly emotional and not like it kind of erodes your credibility or your perceived competence, right? Which is not good. So that concern is valid. So the way I think about it though, if you do have to cry, like cry. Um, you know, great if you can do it in, in private, but if you can’t, and sometimes you can’t, then the really important thing is to own it and to say why you’re crying like that can salvage your reputation. I know. So, because as you know, in the book, I had an epic crying episode where I was a pretty junior academic at the time, and I was giving a talk at. University of get-go if I want to mask the name. That’s funny. Uh, which has a reputation for being jerks to the, uh, speakers, especially female. Like it’s just a toxic environment. So I gave a talk there. When I was starting out and I had like prepped everything, I was like, they’re hard question, so I was extra, extra ready? And then in the talk, yeah, were asking me hard questions. Asking them in a really nasty way. They were being belligerent; they were interrupting me. They were, um, being loud. They were not accepting a perfectly reasonable answer. So, like they were being behaviorally obnoxious and asking hard questions. So those kind of couple things. And I was crying because they were just being a-holes, because they were being bullies. They were being mean. And you know, when you’re like, okay, like you’re like, okay, I can do this. But then he just ke there’s just this onslaught. It just kept, kept, and then I just, I’m like, I couldn’t control it anymore. And just the dams open, and it was ugly cry. It was like, it was the blubbering version that you mentioned, and so I couldn’t hide it. And so. What I decided to do in that moment, I said, I thought, well, it can’t get worse than this. Maybe I can just lecture them on why they suck, like why they’re so nasty. And more importantly, and substantively, why I’m crying and why I’m not crying, ’cause I thought from their perspective, they may think I’m crying ’cause you’re asking me hard questions. And that’s very undermining of my credibility. And so I wanted to kind of set the record straight, and so I just stopped the talk as I’m like, and I said, I want you to know. Why I’m crying and why I’m not crying. And then I said, I’m crying because what I just said right now to you, like I gave all the examples of how they were being obnoxious. And, um, I think that that’s a way of saving it because you tie it to something that’s not, it’s not that you’re like easily. It’s not overly emotional; you’re just like, it’s legitimate. And the fact that you then are able to speak about your feelings and talk about them also models a certain maturity and a certain miss stability, even though you’re like, you, like you don’t feel stable. Um, that was like an extreme version, but I think less extreme versions. And there have been studies on this where like if you are crying at work, if you cry about something, if you link it to your passion for the work, if you say, I’m crying because I’m so passionate, ‘ because I care so much about getting it right, then it doesn’t erode your competence. The other thing I think that’s interesting is if, especially like if you’re a leader, like first of all, leaders have a lot more latitude because they already have high status, they already have respect. So they’ve got kind of a nice like competence capital, like they’ve got this like bank, and so they have a little more leeway such that you know, if something horrible happens. In the world that is relevant to your work, your employees, and you don’t well up, you like suppress welling up. You just look like a monster, right? Like we’ve seen examples of CEOs that are like. Like, I’m thinking this was a while ago, but like the United CEO, Oscar Munoz will no longer CEO because of this. When the person was like dragged off the flight, and when he’s addressing afterwards, he’s just like, oh, this was unfortunate. Like there was no feeling in it. Like that’s crazy. Like you need to show some feeling like, so when it’s expected and you don’t do it. It’s actually very undermining, I think, especially as a leader. Why Sharing Is an Underrated Leadership Tool  AW: Okay. I wanna, I wanna get into that as a leader, because you have the sentence that I’ve read, which is sharing is potentially the most overlooked leadership tool. I wanna go down that, but first I wanna close the loop on what I would call in my work with my clients, Leslie, I call it. Creating or controlling a narrative around Yeah. What’s going on completely. Because there’s completely a million ways to tell the same story. Right.  LJ: So, yeah.  AW: Yes. I see you nodding. So, yeah. Is another way to say what Yeah. What you’re suggesting. Yes.  LJ: Yes. Control the narrative. Exactly. Yeah. Control it. Yeah. Because if you don’t, other people are gonna do it, and so literally you’re controlling the narrative. Yeah.  AW: I think that controlling the narrative is also a hugely underleveraged skill that eople have like at all levels, but particularly ambitious folks who are looking to get ahead. And then people are like, well, why did that happen? Or why is that person doing that? Or Why is that person crying? Or why are they so upset? And then you tell them. You tell them, I am really upset right now because our entire team spent so much time on this and were really disappointed. And I think, you know, and then you create the narrative around it as opposed to look at how pissed off she is.  LJ: Yeah, right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And so much of this like, it feels like overcommunicating, but it’s just communicating like you’re gonna feel like you’re overcommunicating, but turns out people can’t read your mind and your motivations. And so if you don’t tell them, then they’re gonna like make these all kinds of inferences that probably aren’t right. In fact, that’s another construct that I find fascinating that I encountered as I wrote the book, was mind reading expectations, how it’s a trait. You know, we, psychologists love measuring individual traits, and there’s a trait called mind-reading expectations, which is the extent to which you kind of naturally implicitly expect that your partners or your colleagues or your friends should just know what you’re thinking and feeling, which, when I say it so bluntly, it sounds. Of course that’s ridiculous. But yet so many of us have this implicit belief. I have it. I took the scale my, it’s on my website. You can take it yourself. I took the scale myself, and I realized I have this off the charts, but it’s been so helpful knowing that about myself, ’cause now like I realized, oh, I have to tell my husband that I slept badly and so I’m moody today. Like he can’t read my mind. Um, so it, it often feels like over-communicating, but then once you realize, oh yeah, they, they don’t know what’s going on in my head. I just have to tell them. And. Controlling the narrative is super important. I was just advising, um, anec ed participant about this is super common. Lots of times executives come to our programs, and they, you know, they’ll be like a, the, the focus, like a month-long program and they’ll be like transitioning. They wanna use it as a jumping point to like a new career or moving within their organization. And, um, and so I work like one of the. People I was just talking to, I was like, well, what’s your story? What’s your story when you go to a new employer? What’s your story? Because you’ve got a gap in your resume now. And like, what’s your story? And he started saying like, well, you know, private equity bought us. And then they found out I was redundant, and I’m like. Okay, what’s another story? And like the thing is, it’s like there’s lots and lots of different stories. You just have like they have, it has to be true, but there’s lots of different true stories. Pick the one that’s a strength, or like what my publicist said in coaching me for the book, my book publicity. The question, why did you write the book? Shaylyn, my publicist, said there are many answers to that question. Only one or two are actually interesting. So really like think like, choose your story intentionally.  AW: Yeah, there’s a million ways to tell the same story, even a million ways that are true. So tell your story in a way that serves you.  LJ: Exactly, yes. AW: We are aligned on that. Okay. Okay. Let’s move to this idea about sharing being an overlooked leadership tool. LJ: Ah, yeah.  AW: What do you mean by this?  LJ: So I mean that leaders act as if they need to project strength, confidence, invincibility, and perfection. Not that they were just had to change their shirt when they left the house ’cause there’s burp stuff on it. Like they can’t say that that’s how they act. And yet again and again in research, we have found that when leaders reveal a little bit. Not a lot.  It’s not like exposing all of your flaws, but some of them in a metered way, it actually makes their teams trust them more. It makes their teams more motivated, and it doesn’t undermine their credibility, the leader’s credibility at all.  AW: So why is this? Is this because we trust people when we know them better? Or like what is it about them? Or is the revealing like a signal of I trust you so I’m gonna share, and therefore you should, it’s both.  LJ: All of these things. Yeah, it’s so, it’s super fundamental where like when I say something personal to you, something a little sensitive, like let’s say in the workplace, if I was a leader, if I said I’m working on my time management skills. That’s what I’m talking about here. I’m not saying like I’m a like pathologically messy person, which is true, like outside of this window, it’s like a disaster. You’re not saying that. You’re saying like, I’m working on my time management skills. When I say that there’s risk to it, there’s social risk ’cause it’s sensitive. And so the act of doing that. Literally, I’m showing you, I trust you because I’m doing it by doing it. I’m implicitly saying, I trust you not to make a fool outta me. Right? And so when I show I trust you, it makes you trust me back. And that’s like the spark of like collaborations, of friendships, of intimacy, and so on, is that mutual trust. And so in the workplace, when a leader does this, so the the extra thing that’s going on, though, there’s other things too, which is that like leaders. They can be intimidating. They can be aloof. Like, even if their personalities aren’t that way, the fact that they’re high status and that they control resources that they have power is intimidating to people. And so when you share a little bit of what you’re working on, it humanizes you and it warms you up, and it makes people trust and like you. So you already have competence. But to be trustworthy, to be really an admired person, it’s not enough to be perceived as competent. You also have to be beloved. Which is, which is warmth, and basically revealing is a way to show that you’re warm too.  AW: Exactly. Okay. So imagine that there’s a successful leader out there listening to us right now, Leslie, and they’re like, okay, I wanna try this. What are some things that they can do that aren’t gonna, that aren’t gonna sound like they’re coming outta left field. Like, what the heck did this person just listen to a podcast or read a book? Like something that would sound like, how would you get started in doing this?  LJ: One area is. In the context of if lots of people do 360 feedback. So if you’re trying to get honest feedback from your teams, a typical thing that people will do, leaders will do, is they’ll say, they’ll basically be like, please tell me the honest truth. I can take it. I respect you. It’s anonymous. Blah blah. That doesn’t work. You know, just assuring someone that I can take it like makes me actually think you can’t take it. So, but what does work, and this is research outta Wharton, they actually did a study with leaders where they randomized half of the leaders to just do that, the normal, and the other half, they got them to share a little bit of something they’re working on. I’m working on time management, I’m working on organizational skills. Sometimes I feel a bit nervous public speaking these things. Mild, but work-related weaknesses. So when the leaders did that, the feedback they got was way more helpful. Like, people were actually comfortable giving them honest, helpful, constructive feedback. So that’s one thing that you can do immediately in that context. There’s other opportunities, like are you thinking of like kind of rapport building?  AW: So, implicit in your answer there, something, and maybe this is a bias of mine, but I think I also hear this from the folks that I coach, is that what could be overshared or revealed? They’re thinking about personal things, not professional, and your answer was about sharing workplace-focused or more professional-oriented vulnerabilities. So I think that that in itself is a point, right? Like if you’re not comfortable sharing something personal meaning, like from your personal life, how can you be vulnerable about your, maybe it’s something that you’re particularly worried about at work, or a skill that you’re developing at work, even that is considered revealing. LJ: Totally. That’s so interesting because, um, my, because I, it shows how like weird I am or something that, that, to me, revealing a weakness in a workplace is like more revealing than saying like. Something super personal about myself. Um, like that, I peed my pants on stage. Like that’s, but I realized that I’m abnormal. So I love the way you framed that, that like, if you don’t wanna do the risky thing of sharing something personal, you can do the less risky thing or more like. Context appropriate, like less weird from what the colleague, what your, your direct reports are gonna hear. Yeah. Share a work-related week is, and, and, or like, um, you know, oh, my handwriting is so messy. I hate that. I’m trying to make it better. Like you, like a foible. Even you think of the like Pratt fall effect in psychology of like, somebody spills a bit of coffee on themselves, and it makes them endearing and people like them for it. It’s kind of similar to that. Makes you more likable. I mean, almost anything personal that’s somewhat sensitive that you share will make you come across as more likable, as more warm. The exception there is sharing things about like unethical behavior. So best not to do that in the first place.  AW: If you’re revealing a character flaw that is, you know. Not something you’re working on necessarily. It’s like, okay.  LJ: Right, right. But, but even still, it’s interesting because it’s like relative to what? Well, if someone asks you what’s the worst grade you’ve ever gotten, like in a job interview, and the answer is F and you say, I’m gonna answering that question, you will be viewed with contempt relative to if you just say, yeah, I got an F. So sometimes like, admit, not that that’s immoral, but that’s like quite negative, right? I mean, even immoral things. We’ve tried it with immoral things too, and it’s re it’s the, the comparator is important too, right? Saying something that you’ve done that’s bad. Have you ever filed a false insurance claim? Yeah, I’ve done that all the time versus, versus, have you ever false decided to follow the false insurance claim? I’m not answering that question. Right. That’s so much worse. Neither of them is like optimal at all. I wouldn’t, um, you know, but that was a series of thought experiments to really push it and be like conspicuously withholding is so bad that it’s actually better to admit to bad things. The Reveal vs. Conceal Framework—and Our Omission Bias AW: Okay. So this is a beautiful transition to omission bias. Can you talk about, describe the two by two with the reveal, don’t reveal, and the pros and cons, and how and why there this pattern exists where we have this omission bias. I love this.  LJ: Oh, thanks. Yeah. This is kind of the North star of the book, which is, you know, how to make better disclosure decisions because on the whole, my view is that. We don’t disclose nearly enough. Like we’re way too scared of TMI, and we’re not scared enough about TLI, too little information. We didn’t even have a word for it until me.TLI is, I think T-L-I, T-L-I is a way bigger issue, but yeah, TMI, we still, TMI can be problematic. So, how do you decide, how do you adjudicate these decisions better? Like, do you tell your boss you have ADHD? Well, you might get accommodation, but they could discriminate against you. Do you, another example would be, suppose like you came up with this, some idea for like a new product or some innovative sourcing supply chain or whatever the idea is, and it took a team to bring it to life, but you, it was your idea and you hear your colleague say to the boss, oh yeah, it was a team idea, teamwork. A part of you dies inside ’cause you’re like, I love my team, but it was my idea. And so like, what do you do? Do you, how do you even make that decision? Like, do you speak up or not? Well, when I ask people to consider these types of dilemmas, the number one thing they think about their mind immediately goes to the risks of revealing. So, it’ll be an awkward conversation. They’re gonna hate me. I’m gonna come across as petty and needy, like risks of revealing, and those are valid. Those are real risks of revealing. But the problem is, this is so crazy again and again in my research. Like people do not come up with the other. There’s four things. It’s a two by two, right? We love two by twos. At HBS, we love two-by-twos in our MBA lives. So this is just one quadrant of risks of revealing what else is there? There is the risk of not revealing. There is the benefit of revealing and there’s the benefit of not revealing. So it’s a risk. Risk, reward, reveal, don’t reveal. It’s a two by two. And what the omission bias tells us is that the omission bias means that we’re kind of really, um, very, very sensitive to bad things that happen in the wake of things we did. So when disclosure terms, that means we really beat ourselves up for unfortunate things that we shouldn’t have said. Regrettable disclosures. Okay. That’s because that’s a sin of commission. On the other hand, not revealing something we should have revealed, like praising a colleague who we think is amazing, withholding praise, or, um, not telling our crush, not having the guts to tell our crush in college that we love them, like not disclosing. That’s a sin of omission, and we’re not so worried about those sins of omission. We don’t beat ourselves up over not having taken. Important actions. Right? Even saying that is confusing cognitively, right? But yet sins of commission, bad things we did, blurting something, and seeing to people cringe. That’s aish sin of commiss. We’re really sensitive to it. By contrast, not revealing. Something that we should have is a sin of omission and a kind of, we don’t even code it as a sin off and we don’t even realize it. Because it’s like missed opportunities are the Yeah. Right. ‘Cause you didn’t know anything north salient. Right. Right. You didn’t, you didn’t do anything. Yeah. Yeah. And so one of the things I’ve started doing in my life is just trying to gain a more appreciation for the opportunities to share because of omission bias. It’s so insidious that it causes us to not even. Realize the opportunities that we have to share. So like I started doing these things that I call disclosure audits where I’d like go through the day and I would, um, so I’d, ’cause I’m a nerd, I’m gonna do some quick data collection here. I would go through the day and I’d have, I’d have a sheet. Okay. The sheet says it’s a tally. It says, said unsaid. And because so much of. The things I don’t even consider revealing, it’ll become clear. Uh, just a two-minute exercise here. So I wake up in the morning, typical boring day. I wake up in the morning, I roll over in bed. I say, good morning, Collie to my husband. What I don’t say is I slept like crap. When I don’t sleep well, can’t regulate my emotions, I’m gonna need kid gloves. I don’t say any of that. It doesn’t, it doesn’t occur to me to say it. We’re standing in the bathroom, brushing our teeth. I think to myself, I feel older than I thought I would at this age. And then I’m like, wait, is that a zit? I’m 45. How come I still have acne? I don’t say any of this. And so we haven’t even gotten to breakfast, and I’m five to one. Five onsets, one said. And the point isn’t that like, I mean, in this case, I think I should have said all of those things, but you know, I get to my office later in the day, my assistant asks, how are you? I say, I’m great. What I don’t say is, I’m overwhelmed. I’m exhausted. I got a big presentation. I don’t say that. I think that’s fine. Like. The point isn’t just for all the unsaid things to be said, you don’t want that. I don’t want that. The point is like, ’cause sometimes we withhold for good reasons. Sometimes we don’t have time, or we’re being thoughtful, or there are status imbalances that would make it unkind to share. But so often we don’t even appreciate these as opportunities. We don’t code them as decisions. We just default to silence. But they are decisions and I. We should treat them as such and consider revealing more in all of those. The ones I wrote down, I think I should have said, because like talking about my body to my husband, like that’s a source of intimacy. How you actually feel about yourself and knowing that your partner knows how you feel is like the source of intimacy. Feeling known for who you are is like probably the most powerful source of intimacy. So I’m blabbing on, but um, can you tell I feel passionately, but so that omission bias makes us, we don’t even realize it. So I’ve been trying to kind of like. I realize these things, and then once you realize you have way more opportunities, then you can do the matrix, the two by two and start. And with the thing about the like, oh, should I say something about this person who didn’t credit my idea? Immediately? We know the risks, but if I then get you to go further and say, okay, those are valid. What are some risks of not revealing? You might say, well, hmm, I’ll ruminate, and I’ll brood, and when I brood it, passive aggression maybe seeps out, and maybe I’ll, maybe that will be bad for our relationship. When you start to see, oh, there’s risks in the other way. If I could figure out how to say it to the person, which is a whole other topic, is like, how to say hard things. But we can do, there’s good science on that. So suppose we, we figure out how to say it. If I say it, then that person will know me, that I care about ideas, and ideas matter, and maybe I’ll respect before that. So that’s kind of how I think about these decisions now.  AW: So you’re reminding me, Leslie, recently I had a conversation with a friend, a neighbor who is in his fifties, and he, for the first time is bike riding. And he signed up to do this, like really like endurance ride. And he’s like, am I crazy? And I said to him, we don’t regret. We do. We regret what we don’t do, and I feel like we can also say we don’t regret what we say as much as we maybe regret what we don’t say.  LJ: It’s so right. It is, but it’s weird. It’s a little bit tricky because in the short run. We like immediately after we say something a little edgy or we do something we maybe shouldn’t have, we feel regret over the thing we did. We, and right afterwards, we feel more regret over sins of commission, regrettable things we did than things that we did not say that we should have. But over time, it completely flips over time, and that’s the important thing that you’re highlighting. Over time, you end up regretting. You’re like, whatever. I made some silly joke that doesn’t matter. What I really regret is I didn’t tell my first love how I really felt, and now I don’t have them anymore. The first chapter tells a story. I mean, they’re lucky tho those two people because they ended up reuniting. But so often I think that’s so relatable to people and to me, one of the things that just really blew my mind when I was doing research for the book was the, I mean, this is Tom Gil’s work on regret, but it’s also. In a parallel universe, a woman by the name of Brony Ware found this as well. So she’s a palliative care nurse, and so she spent many, many hours with people in their final moments, and she started kind of grouping together the things people say they regret. And four out of the five top regrets are regrets of things they did not do. And number three is directly about not sharing. Its number three is I wish I had shared my feelings more.  AW: I mean, just read that chapter, and you will be revealing more. So Leslie, I wanna talk to you a little bit about personalities. So, in your book you talk about the revealers who may err on the side of TMI and maybe concealers who err on the side of TLI, and the assumptions that we make about the types of people who share and don’t share. Can you summarize for us? I guess what the mistake is, the mistake and assumption that we make, and what the data actually shows you.  LJ: Yes. So when I ask people, what personality trait do you think is most associated with revealers? People say extroversion, but that’s what I call the extroversion illusion, because I tested this for the, because this research didn’t exist. So I’m like, oh, I’m gonna figure this out. And it turns out that. Extroversion is not related to whether you’re a revealer or a concealer, which actually kind of makes sense when you think about it, because extroverts they’re talkative, they’re bubbly, they’re positive affect, they’re outgoing, but like. Like, decibels doesn’t mean depth, you know, it doesn’t necessarily mean, and then when I started thinking like one of my best friends is a hardcore extrovert, like so much so that I’m such a social loafer in situations with her because she just does all the talking and I can just like hang back. Um, and she, she says, says this public, like she struggles with vulnerability so. By contrast, I’m kind of more introverted, I’ve become more extroverted, but I’m more introverted, and I’m very reveal. So the one trait that is very strongly predictive of. Being comfortable opening up is agreeableness. Agreeableness plays along well with others, kind of easygoing. And the reason is because a central facet of agreeableness is trusting others. People who are agreeable, just super trusting, which is me, like I’m. It’s burned me before. I mean it’s, but I, I still would rather be more trusting than less trusting. Um, so it’s agreeableness that is predictive of being revealing.  AW: So when I read that, I was like, that makes so much sense. The agreeable folks assume the best in others and therefore maybe the risk of omission. For them is not as high as it would be for people that are low on agreeableness. I love that point. I think so. So folks out there, if you’ve taken the big five a personality test, think about your level of agreeableness on that scale and then ask yourself whether that maybe correlates with your propensity to reveal.  LJ: Yeah.  AW: And you have a quiz on your website, don’t you, Leslie?  LJ: I do. Yeah. I was just gonna say, yeah, so there’s a mind-reading quiz, and there’s a, um, like do you have a revealing personality quiz so you can, you can test yourself.  AW: Okay, awesome. I’ll put the links to all of that, plus the diagram of the two by two and more in the show notes for people to access.  Rapid-Fire Questions and Final Reflections on Revealing Are you ready for the three rapid-fire questions?  LJ: Yes. I feel unprepared, but let’s, maybe it’ll be even better.  AW: Well, guess what? I think you’ve already answered the first one, so this will be really rapid, but the first question is. Are you an extrovert or an introvert?  LJ: Oh, introvert. Which is surprising, but I do think that I have, I know that I’ve become more extroverted, which I’m happy about. ’cause extroverts are happier. And I think honestly the re, I know this is rapid fire. Sorry. The reason I’m more extroverted is because of kids. Like they force me to push. ‘Cause you know, you go to social events, you hang out with other moms like you. And then I realized, oh, people are, I kind of like people. I kind of like talking to people.  AW: Nice. I wasn’t expecting, I wasn’t expecting a one word answer from a psychologist on that question. Don’t worry. Okay. This one, I have no idea what you’re gonna say. What is your communication pet peeve? What drives you crazy that other people do?  LJ: Oh, I have so many of them talking too much. Talking too much is a big pet peeve. ’cause I’m thinking of my workplace and people that in meetings they just talk too much, and they may tend to be of a certain gender more likely than others. That drives me crazy when people, it’s fine to be talkative if you have substance. Another communication pet peeve is, um, not being grateful. Not saying thank you. Not saying please, like I am like with my kids. I’m like, what was that? What do you, I guess,  AW: Yeah.  LJ: That’s maybe how I’m screwing them up. They have to be like, they’re so polite. AW:  I put the fear, you know, what I do with my kids is I just say, my kids are a little older than yours. I just say, you’re welcome. And then I walk. I’m like, I’m not gonna keep asking you to say thank you. We’re past that point, but I am gonna use my manners and say, you’re welcome. That’s awesome. It’s a little passive-aggressive. Okay. A little question number. Question number three. Is there a book other than yours and a podcast other than mine that you find yourself recommending to people lately? LJ: Okay. A book. Yes. I love so many books. So the book I’m gonna recommend is right here, but it’s a little revealing. It’s sitting here. This is the book. I have never felt so heard in my life. The book, I don’t even, I feel bad saying the name out loud. Should I say it?  AW: You definitely should.  LJ: Okay. The book is called Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents. That’s what it’s called. AW: Is Your Mom Terrible Podcast episode.  LJ: I hope not. Um,  AW: Well, she doesn’t believe in psychology. You said that at the very beginning. LJ: Yeah, I mean, like, I love, I, okay now I have to say, which is true. And now it’s just gonna sound disingenuous ’cause, but literally the book is sitting right here, so I’m like, I have, I can’t not, um, no, I think she’d be like, well you, she has. I have the book. ’cause it’s, I’m just, I’m a psychologist. I’m, it’s literature. I’m learning. I like to learn. Like, I don’t, I don’t think she would, um. Ize it like that. I’ve actually had this conversation with my brother because they were coming over, and I’m like, oh shit, I gotta hide the book. And will’s like, no, no, no. You don’t have to hide the book. She’s not gonna internalize it. You may wanna cut this, but, um, but I, uh, but I, you know, and this is like, I would not be where I am in my life without my parents. Like they’ve just given me. So, like, I just live a charmed life and I’m, I’m, I’m truly. Super, super grateful.  AW: And both can be true.  LJ: Both can  be true. Yeah, exactly right. Both can be, and you know, I’m writing the book was the best therapy for me. Like I really, as you know, in chapter three, like there was a really big thing that I had kept from my mother, and it was like this distance between us, and then we talked about it, and now like our relationship is even stronger. Like, I feel like also it’s helped me to maybe grow up a bit and realize, you know, when you’re a child, your parents are perfect. And now finally that I’m in my forties, I’m like, oh, they have strengths and weaknesses, just like everyone. And I don’t fall. Like they’re just human, and they’re, we, they’re ama, their strengths are just so amazing. AW: Oh, that’s nice. That’s nice. So, for the record I did, and I might be in the minority here, I did not see it coming, that you were describing your first person story. You were like, by now you’ve probably realized it was me. I’m like, what?  LJ: That’s so funny.  AW: I didn’t know, and I even knew, I even knew before I picked up your book that there was gonna be a story that demonstrates the power of revealing. Like, I even knew that going into the book.  LJ: How did you, I guess maybe someone told you or something.  AW: I think it’s, it was in the, um. The HBS alumni bulletin summary. Oh, okay, LJ: Okay. AW:  That makes sense. It’s like you, you share something in the book that demonstrates the power, whatever. Yeah. So I was like, oh. Anyway. Um, yeah. Yeah. So what about a pod? Is there a podcast that you. LJ: Oh yeah, yeah. Sorry. Podcast. I mean, there’s just so many. I’m trying to think of, I’m looking at my phone at what my fate, what the ones I’ve been listening to lately. I mean, I know this isn’t a very original one, but I really. Love the Mel Robbins show. I love it because she has taught me so much by listening to it about how to communicate. Like there’s a lot of things that she does that I as a scientist can’t, won’t do. Like the number one thing, like,  AW: I’m glad to hear you say that because a lot of people reject her podcast because of that. So I’m surprised to hear that you like it, but I think you’re right. LJ: Right? Like if you, if you like put it in perspective. It’s so good and I just like be talking about my book with the media world where people are great communicators. I’ve realized how much in a bubble I am in academia and how much we suck at communicating. Like try to read a journal article, right? Like they’re ill incomprehensible. Which is so ironic ’cause it’s like we’re doing all this new, finding new things, but nobody knows what we’re finding and so. I just think that all scientists should take a lesson from, whether it’s Mel Robbins or not to be like hyperbole, but like. Communicate extremely clearly what the key thing is. And um, so I like it for that reason. But I agree like it’s jumping the shark if I would do that, like that’s totally jumping the shark, but there’s so much that I’ve learned from it.  AW: Oh, I love that. I feel like that was a little bit revealing. It’s a little bit risky as an academic to say that.  LJ: Yeah, I guess it is. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,  AW: Yeah. But you created a narrative around it. That is very valid. So look at, look at how meta this has become, which often happens. I wanna say thank you so much, Leslie, for your time. I really enjoyed this conversation and I have a copy of your book right behind me, and I hope that either when I come to Boston or you come to Toronto, that you can sign this for me. I can’t, I can’t wait for that.  LJ: And I can’t wait for you to sign your book to me when you, when it comes out. I can’t wait to read it. It’s gonna be so good.  AW: I would love that too. Trust me. So. Is there any last advice you wanna share with the talk about, talk listeners, these ambitious professionals about the power of revealing? LJ: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s that revealing is a skill. We often, sometimes we think of it as we’re either good or bad at it, but I really think it’s a skill. We, weirdly, we’re never taught it, but like any skill, you know, we can get better at it. With practice, with experimentation, with reflection. And I guess what I would say there is. I always encourage people to like try sharing more, trying a little bit more, not a like, not dumping yourself, but like a little bit more and see what happens. And also it’s a bit of a gift to occasionally feel the TMI sting because if you never feel it, you’re not doing it enough, you’re not going far enough. So celebrate it when you hit that. And then dial it back a bit, but it’s, that’s part of the learning, I think.  AW: Fantastic advice. Thank you so much, Leslie. Your 3 Key Takeaways on Revealing at Work Thanks again to Professor Leslie John. Now as always, I wanna summarize with three key learnings that I hope you take away from this episode. Just briefly. Number one, I want you to think. Revealing and deciding about what to reveal at work as a skill that you can develop. Simply listening to this episode gave you some insights and frameworks to help you do so. This is a skill that you can learn. Number two is our propensity to have an omission bias. I want you to really think about the two by two. Maybe take out a piece of paper and write this out right now. A simple two by two. So a box with a vertical line and a horizontal line through it. And on one dimension you have reveal or not reveal. In other words, reveal or conceal. And on the other dimension, you have the pros and the cons, or the benefits and the disadvantages. The bias that we have that Professor Leslie John highlighted is the omission bias. So we have a propensity to believe that the cons or the disadvantages associated with revealing something are higher than they actually are very often there are more benefits. To revealing things than not. So the next time you’re actually considering consciously whether to share something or not, you can pull out a piece of paper, draw this two by two, and really think carefully about what the benefits and the disadvantages are of revealing versus concealing. The third and last thing that I wanna reinforce with you is that. If and when you’re deciding that you wanna reveal more at work, there are really two ways that you can think about this. This came through in the conversation. I thought this was fascinating. So what you decide to reveal could be in a personal context or in a professional context. So that’s it for this episode. I hope we’ve helped you think a little bit differently about revealing and oversharing at work. Talk soon. The post Oversharing: “Revealing” with Harvard Business School Professor Leslie John (ep.211) appeared first on Talk About Talk.
• Executive Presence LIVE TRAINING: 5 Ways to Boost Your Leadership Presence” (ep. 210) 13.04.2026 54นาที

  Have you ever been told you need to work on your “executive presence” and walked away thinking, what does that even mean? In this Talk About Talk episode, you’re getting a front-row seat to one of Dr. Andrea Wojnicki’s live training sessions. Andrea reframes the way we think about executive presence, calling it what it really is: leadership presence, and shares five concrete strategies to help you build it. You’ll also hear live Q&A from the audience on everything from dressing for presence, to navigating small talk in a high-stakes geopolitical moment, to showing up credibly across cultures. Executive Presence 2.0 by Sylvia Ann Hewlett – https://amzn.to/4bGiZex CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube TRANSCRIPTION Andrea Wojnicki: Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk.  Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please just call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach at Talk About Talk, where I coach ambitious professionals to improve their communication. So you can achieve your career goals.  Rethinking Executive Presence: From Vague Feedback to Actionable Skills This episode is a little bit different from most. You’re gonna hear a live training session that I ran recently, focused on leadership presence and executive presence. In this episode, you’re gonna learn my framework for leadership presence, and you’re gonna hear five different strategy that you can choose to adopt to help you boost your leadership presence. You’ll also hear live questions from the audience for this session. I hope you enjoy it. Here we go. Welcome everyone. We are here today to talk about executive presence. So if you’re here, I’m guessing that either. You are a very ambitious person who has looked around at the folks around you that are knocking it outta the park in terms of their career. And you’re like, what is different about them? And I have people who come to me, and they’re like, it’s communication, but it’s more than communication, Andrea. It’s their executive presence.  So that might be you, or you may have been told by someone, maybe a mentor, or maybe even your boss. It might have come up in your annual review that you need to work on developing your executive presence. I hear this a lot from folks. So the good news is I do a lot of thinking, writing, and coaching about executive presence. I’m gonna be encouraging you in the next hour to start to think about executive presence in a little bit of a different way, but a way where you can get traction. So here’s my promise to you. I’m gonna share with you a framework for how you can think about this sometimes nebulous topic or vague topic, you could say in a way that can really help you get traction in developing your executive presence. And I’m also gonna share with you, I’m a, for those of you who know me, I’m a big fan of the power of three, but I’m actually gonna share with you five different strategies or tactics that can help you establish this elusive executive presence. And so my challenge to you is to identify which one or two of these five that I’m sharing with you that you can adopt for yourself. So consistent with being, you know, focused on the power of three, we’re really gonna go through three things. First of all, we’re gonna talk about what executive presence is, and this is where I think I might surprise some of you with how I think about defining executive presence. The second thing. I’m gonna share with you the five different ways of establishing executive presence. And the third thing is, I’m gonna share with you an opportunity for you to work with me. It’s a program that I have to help people establish their executive presence and beyond, and then we’re gonna open it up for an open q and a, which is truly, it’s become my favorite part of doing these live coaching sessions. What Is Executive Presence—and Why It Feels So Vague So, as I said, some people. Are sent to me by their boss to work on their executive presence, and some people proactively come to me. And interestingly, something that I’ve noticed, and I’ve been reading a little bit about this lately, many people are not a big fan of the term executive presence. And there may be a couple reasons for this. The one that I think is very valid is that executive presence seems very subjective, right? It’s like you know it when you see it, but how do you actually define it? And in fact, some people have told me, and I think that this is a very eloquent way of putting it, that being told that you need to develop your executive presence can sound like vague coded feedback. That means you don’t have the it factor and you probably never will. I’ve heard those exact words from a couple of my clients, and they’re like, Andrea, I need to figure this out. And I’m like. It can be subjective, but we’re gonna turn it into something that’s a little bit more tangible or quantifiable, like real skills spec. We’re gonna specify, forget this vagueness, forget this coded feedback. We’re gonna make it into something that where you can get some traction. So when I ask people to define what they think it means, usually what comes up is something around gravitas. And inspiring people. So it’s a combination, often of gravitas, which I would say is a synonym for confidence as an executive, right, and inspiring people. And I would push back on that definition. I would say that sounds a little bit like a definition of effective leadership in general. There is a book, which I have over here by Sylvia Ann Hewlett, that is one of the best books I’ve read on executive presence, and she recently republished it. It’s called EP, as in Executive Presence 2.0, and she says there are three ingredients based on her research in what comprise executive presence. It is  in fact, number one is gravitas. Number two is communication skills, and number three is what she calls how you show up. So your physical presence, and it’s kind of in that order, right? So if you’re gonna, if you’re gonna do one thing, it’s establishing gravitas, and then it’s communication skills, and then it’s how you show up. When I read this book, I thought to myself, for those I see some people in the room here that I’ve coached before. You probably know that I coach people on all of these topics. I would consider gravitas and confidence to be. A communication skill. Of course, communication skills are communication skills, and how you show up is certainly a communication skill. So I say great executive presence is all about communication. So that’s why we’re here, and that’s why I’m here to coach you. I wanna read to you the definition from Sylvia Ann Hewlett’s book about what she says executive presence is, it’s something to think about here. She says, executive presence is typically perceived as consisting of three elements in descending order of importance, gravitas, skillful communication. The right appearance having, and she tells a story about showing up for her first job, interview out of college, dressed completely wrong, and how she attributes that to the fact that she didn’t get the job. So a lot of people say, well, how I dress doesn’t matter. It matters. People see you often before they hear a word that comes outta your mouth. So I would say that this is a great start, but based on my years of coaching. Hundreds of ambitious professionals, leaders, and aspiring professionals and leaders. I’ve noticed a trend, and I’m gonna share a framework with you. I’m also gonna encourage you to think about this executive presence in a different way. So I’m gonna start sharing my screen here. I want you to rethink executive presence. Because of the issues that I said before that it may be vague coded feedback. Some people also say when they think of executive presence, they think of like an old school 1990s. Dictatorship, authoritarian style male in a standing behind a podium, in a blue pinstripe suit. I know some of you, I see some names where we were hanging out in those days, and that was what an effective leader with executive presence looked like. Okay?  From Executive Presence to Leadership Presence So I’m encouraging us now to rethink this and maybe call it. Leadership presence, and I would say leadership presence, ’cause that’s really what we’re aspiring to, right? Leadership presence is the ability to establish credibility and create impact. So you’re doing things, you can see there’s this upward arrow, right? You are doing all the things. Maybe some of the things that Sylvia Ann Hewlett, the author of, of EP 2.0, all of the things that she talked about will help you establish credibility so that you can create impact.  And by the way, what is impact? I turn the question back to you. What is your goal? Are you looking to get promoted? Are you looking to get a new job? Are you looking to be heard in meetings? I hear this all the time. I don’t say a lot in meetings, Andrea, and when I do, people ignore me, and then someone else will say something similar, and they’ll get all the attention. I literally had this conversation last night in a coaching session. So impact can be big or small, right? Being heard, it can be having people congratulate you after you give a formal presentation. It can be a new job, it can be a promotion, it can be any of these things. The impact is what you want. And then how are you gonna get there? Well, there’s, you can see there’s a few steps here, but you’re not gonna get there unless you have credibility in the eyes of others. Okay. So I am encouraging us to define a new term and maybe forego this executive presence term, which has some baggage, and instead call it leadership presence.  Five Ways to Build Leadership Presence (Where to Focus First) Okay, so now I’m gonna share with you five ways to work your way up this hierarchy or this pyramid. Like I said, I’m a big fan of the power of three, but we have an hour together, so I’m, I’m gonna share five with you. The first is, you know, I’m a communication coach, and I would say making sure that you’re never gonna have credibility if you’re not an effective communicator, right? It’s as simple as that. And so by foundational communication skills, by the way, I do not mean the basics. I don’t mean easy things. I mean foundational communication skills, like being a really effective formal presenter. Learning how to lead meetings that are really impactful. I’m talking about listening skills and not just shifting from what a lot of people default to, which is passive to active listening. There are many, many ways that you can focus on your foundational communication skills. And by the way, the most. Successful senior folks that I coach are constantly upgrading their foundational communication skills. I’m not sure if foundational is the right word, ’cause I don’t want people to think it means like basic things that you get outta the way. They’re things that are the foundation of how you present yourself. And so three great examples are introducing yourself with confidence, listening, as I mentioned, and formal presentation skills. For those of you who haven’t heard or learned myself, introduction framework, I just wanna say this. Your self-introduction is the most direct way that you have to reinforce your professional identity. These are your words from you about you. So it is well worth your time to learn how to introduce yourself with confidence. And this does not mean learning a script that you memorize and rehearse and then spit out why? Because it sounds rehearsed. Because it is, and it’s not customized for your audience. So instead, I encourage you to learn my framework, and I think someone’s gonna put it in the chat so you can read the article if you like it. There’s an HBR article from 2020 that I had published with this framework, and in 2023 is one of the three most downloaded articles at hbr.org. The framework is really easy. You don’t even need to take notes to remember it. It’s three things, present, past, future. So who are you, what do you do, and where do you do it? Hi, my name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach at talk about Talk Boom, who you are and what you do. And if you’re between jobs, you could say, my expertise is in the finance industry or in the pharmaceutical industry. And I’m a finance expert, right? So you could clarify what your industry or functional and or functional expertise is. So that’s step one. Present past tense. Here’s where in a professional context, you establish credibility, so you could. Mention previous jobs. You could mention a project that you just finished. You could mention an award that you won. You could mention your credentials, your university degrees, whatever this is. You choose, depending on the context, one, two, or three things to help you establish your credibility. And again, it’s not a script. You’re choosing the things that are relevant.  So if I’m pitching to an HR leader who’s thinking about bringing me in to do some coaching or workshops for the folks on their team. I will tell them about how I earned my doctorate from Harvard Business School, where my research focused on exactly what I’m coaching you on. It was interpersonal communication and consumer psychology. I would mention that I used to teach at the University of Toronto in the MBA program, or whatever I thought was relevant for that person. Right. So you establish. Credibility with the past tense, and then you shift to the future. This is easy, and it’s often forgotten, but it’s like the icing on the cake. One or two sentences where you demonstrate enthusiasm about the future. Like, I’m really excited to help all of you establish executive presence or leadership presence so your careers can skyrocket. Ideally, you make it about the other person, what you’re excited about for them. Okay, so introducing yourself with confidence. You just had a quick coaching session there. The three-point framework. It’s present. Past future. It’s not chronological. You start with, you anchor yourself with the present, who you are, and what you do. You establish credibility by talking about the past, and then you move to the future, and you talk about how enthusiastic you are about the future. This is a foundational communication skill. I encourage you to try this framework if you haven’t already, as soon as possible, and it’ll become a life skill. The next time someone says, let’s go around the table or around the screen and introduce ourselves, you’ll probably do what I do and go, oh gosh. And then you’ll say, ah, I have a framework, and you’re gonna nail it.  So there’s introducing yourself with confidence. There’s listening beyond. Just act passive to active. Let’s seek really collaborative listening where you believe that you have insights. The other person has insights, and if you listen carefully to together, you’re gonna come up with something amazing. So pushing your listening to be at a new level. By the way, I always say this when I coach people on listening. You can’t be listening at this ultra high level all the time. It is exhausting. It’s really about self-awareness. So I’m in this training session right now with Andrea. I think I’m gonna be actively listening. I’m not gonna be this collaborative level. I’m gonna be active later on. When you’re in a meeting, and it’s something that you already know everything about, you might slip into passive listening, which is where you’re kind of pretending to listen. Maybe you’re writing a few notes just to keep yourself awake. Being conscious of what level of listening you’re at, I think is actually a superpower. Again, it’s about self-awareness and then formal presentation skills. The one thing I would say in terms of how to get better at formal presentation skills is practice. Just do it every chance. You get leading meetings, doing formal presentations, doing informal presentations. The more you do it, the easier it gets and the more fun it gets.  I’m gonna say I have some horror stories that some of you, I know, some of you have heard, but I decided that was not acceptable, and so I started practicing, and now I do love it. I even have a podcast, so obviously I love formal presentations. Okay, so that’s the first way to establish your leadership presence is work. And these are just three. I’m gonna give you three for each of the five, three ways. So, three ways to improve your foundational communication skills, introducing yourself effectively and boosting your listening formal presentation skills. Okay. The second way to establish leadership presence is to communicate with precision. Now, I would say that precision counts as a foundational communication skill, but I, when I was pulling this together for us today, I wanted to pull this one out because of this very interesting insight. I think it’s interesting folks that are more junior in their career often come to me. Saying, Andrea, I have imposter syndrome, and I need some help speaking up. It’s like they want to speak more. And then the more senior and successful folks that I coach actually say the opposite. They’re like, Andrea, I ramble sometimes, and I need you to help me communicate with precision. I wanna speak less, but with more impact. So I have this pair of scissors here. This is about brevity, so taking up less airtime. And clarity, so making sure that you are really clear. So I of course have three suggestions for how you can do that. The first one that I always say, when people come to me seeking precision in their communication, this is the most important thing you can do. Speak in headlines. Use headlines. What does that mean? That means when you send an email, sure. Your first sentence might be, I hope you had a great weekend, but your second sentence should be, the purpose of this email is, or I’m sending you this recommendation and the, you know, the accompanying evidence or whatever it is, like you tell them what you’re going to tell them. I recently came up with this kind of saying that I have to explain this, which is if you’re writing a screenplay or you’re writing a novel, suspense is great, but suspense is not an effective strategy in business. Do not rely on suspense. Instead, tell them what you’re gonna tell them right away. So speak in headlines. The second thing here is the power of three. If you know me, if you’ve listened to my podcast, if you’ve seen my posts on LinkedIn, if you know me at all, you know that I’m a huge fan of the power of three. I even have three kids and the power of three is actually grounded in science. So three is, I hope your default whenever you’re wondering how many, why? Because three is balanced. Think about a tripod, right? You need three legs or a stool with three legs. It’s balanced. Three is enough that it sounds like a trend. So it’s substantial or substantive, but it’s not overwhelming. And three is easily memorized. It’s memorable or easy to recall. Remember, in the self-introduction framework, it’s three steps, not an accident. Whenever I ask myself, how many, whatever should I include, I always say three. And if three is not enough, make it three groups of three. So I’m writing a book right now about some of the material that you’re hearing today, and I have three parts: part one, part two, and part three. And each of them has three chapters. So use the power of three. This will help you in communicating with precision because you’ll tell people with your headline, here’s my recommendation, and then you’ll say, there are many reasons why this is the right way to go. Why? This is my recommendation. I’m gonna share with you three reasons as soon as you tell them that you’re anchoring the people that are listening in. Basically, how long you’re gonna talk. And then you say, the first thing is blah, blah, blah. The second thing is the blah, blah, blah. And imagine if you hadn’t told them that you were going to use the power of three, and you just started listing things. After two people start to go, how much longer is she gonna keep talking? Right? So tell people it’s the power of three. Follow the power of three, and then you can restate what the three things are. Okay. The last way that I’m gonna suggest that you communicate with precision is what I call tracking the ratio. So what do I mean by this? I mean tracking the ratio of the airtime that you’re taking up in a meeting. So far, I’ve taken up 100% of the airtime, not including the chat, thankfully, in this meeting, but typically, if you were in a meeting with three other people, so there’s four of you, I encourage you, no matter what level you’re at, to say what would be my fair share of the airtime? It would be 25% if there’s four of us. And then say, typically, do I speak too much or not enough? If you don’t speak enough, try to take up 25% of the airtime. If you’re the leader, you should probably be speaking less, so you should say, I wanna keep it down. And also, this is really important. If you are a leader and you are demonstrating leadership presence, you are tracking the ratio of everyone in the meeting that you’re leading. And if someone’s not speaking up. You can very gracefully encourage them to do so by saying something like, Jane, I noticed you haven’t said anything yet, and I also know that you have a great expertise and background in whatever the area is. I’d be really interested to hear what you have to say, and then just go quiet, and the person will feel flattered because you authentically flattered them about their expertise, and they’ll pipe in. So track the ratio, whether you speak not enough or too much, and if you’re a leader, track the ratio of everyone in the room and make sure that all of the people in the room are meeting participants, not just meeting attendees, right? If someone’s sitting there and they’re not saying a word and you really don’t need them to say a word, then I say they shouldn’t even be in the meeting anyway. You can send them the minutes later, right? Okay. So that’s the second of five ways to establish leadership presence. The third is communicating with confidence. So. Remember, in my definition of leadership presence, it’s establishing credibility so you can create an impact. How do you establish credibility? A big factor in driving credibility is your confidence. It’s how you feel and how other people are perceiving you. So I like to think of confidence really, and this is how I always talk about a confidence in terms of three things, imposter syndrome, confidence boosting tactics. Then mindset. So the first thing I say here is lean into imposter syndrome. There’s so much research about imposter syndrome and the thing that may surprise all of you is even in the original research, this term was coined based on research on successful people. Successful people feel imposter syndrome. So lean into it. And furthermore, if you’re not feeling imposter syndrome, one of two things is probably true. Either you’re arrogant. You’re done learning. And probably not. There aren’t that many arrogant people, so I’m gonna say, or more likely, you’re not pushing yourself. So I get a lot of calls from folks who have just got a big promotion and then their confidence plummets, and they’re like, Andrea, I need help. I don’t know why, but I’m feeling this imposter syndrome. And then they tell me that they just got this big promotion into a different area. And I say. Your imposter syndrome is because you’re pushing yourself to learn new things. You should celebrate that. So lean into imposter syndrome instead of that. When you feel that icky feeling, I feel it in my chest, like adrenaline, right? I feel like someone kind of punched me in the chest instead. And when I feel that instead of thinking, oh gosh, I have imposter syndrome and letting myself go into a downward spiral, I say. You know what? That’s the spark of positive energy that I need to shine in this workshop that I’m coaching right now. And successful people put themselves in situations where there are high stakes. So, imposter syndrome is a good thing. Then the next two are the tactics and mindsets that different things work for different people. But the one thing you need to know as you’re experimenting with different ways of improving your confidence is that confidence can be learned. Trust me, I have epically failed in the confidence department and been able to build my confidence based on using some of these tactics. So in terms of tactics, I would say things like being expansive. I’m holding my arms out here, being expansive, confident people take up space. So whether you’re seated around the boardroom table or standing in front of a room, remind yourself that confident people take up space. And the two illustrations of that kind of prove this one is think about Trump. I’m not gonna get political here, but think about pictures of Trump in the Oval Office, right? He’s manspreading. I see photos all the time. He’s got his arms out, he’s got his legs out. He is taking up space. Now, I don’t know that he’s doing it on purpose, but he’s showing that he is confident and credible in that room. So that’s one example. And the other example that I think of is remember when you were back in college or high school, and the teacher would ask a question, and then they’d turn around and look. And if you didn’t know what the answer was, you’d try to make yourself really small. Right? We kind of hide versus if you knew the answer, you’d be like, oh, oh. At least some people would, right? So those are great examples of how we make ourselves small when we don’t wanna be seen, and how we make ourselves expansive. So the tactic of making yourself expansive is a big one. Slowing down your breathing is such a simple and hugely effective way of boosting your confidence. I’ve read this research in detail, and here’s the insight. If you slow your exhale in particular, your brain says. Hang on a second. I’m not gasping for air. Everything must be okay. And then your blood chemistry will actually change. Your stress hormones will stop being produced, and you’ll feel less stressed out. So if you’re up on stage and you feel this shot of adrenaline, it’s not like you’re gonna be heavy breathing into the microphone. However, you can quietly slow your exhale knowing that that will boost your confidence. And then there are confidence-boosting mindsets. Things like really focusing on learning. If you are, so I’m not talking about this, I’m gonna say it. Stupid advice that we often hear, like there’s no such thing as failure. Only learning. Come on, you can fail. But if you are genuinely, authentically focused on learning all the time, especially in these high-stakes contexts, you really can’t fail. In fact, the story of your epic failure, like the one of me failing when I was on stage, can become part of your story and catapult you into future success. So one of the mindsets that I encourage people is really think about a growth mindset. Really learning into that, leaning into that lifelong learning mindset. And another mindset that I know works really well is focusing on your personal brand. Your unique strengths focusing on your superpowers. So in the research on social psychology, they talk about global self-esteem. So generally, how confident are you? And then they talk about domain-specific self-esteem. So my question for you is, and you might wanna write this down right now, in what areas do I feel confident? Where do I know I have skills, expertise, and passion that adds value in my organization or in my career? If you focus on these things, your confidence will be elevated, and the research shows that when you focus on your domain-specific expertise, your self-esteem in those areas goes up, and then your global self-esteem also goes up. So, I mean, this is a lot of social psychology talk for. Focusing on your superpowers before you go out on stage, remind yourself of what you’re good at. So I remember many years ago, for the first time, I was getting in front of a room with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people, and I really didn’t, it was an open q and a. I didn’t really know what was gonna happen, and I was nervous about the open q and a in particular. And I said to myself, Andrea. You have academic credentials in branding and marketing. You’ve spent your career in branding and marketing. You’ve coached all these people, you’ve done these workshops. You don’t know everything, but you are an expert in personal branding. So anything that they ask you, either you’re gonna have an answer for, or it’s gonna be something that you should learn anyway. Right? And then I went out there. So remind yourself of what your unique superpowers are. That’s a very powerful, uh, mindset. Okay. Moving on to the fourth way to establish leadership presence is exactly what I was just talking about. It’s developing your personal brand. So there are several things that you can do. If you follow me, you know that I’m talking about this all the time. Why? People tell me that this work is some of the most impactful work that they’ve done in elevating their confidence and also in developing their career. So, as I said at the beginning, your self-introduction is the most direct way that you have to reinforce your personal brand. I cannot overstate how important it is to be comfortable and confident in your self-introduction, focusing on your unique strengths, like I just said. My saying here is unique is better than better. Instead of trying to figure out what everyone in your organization or in an industry is expecting you to do or to call your strengths, ask yourself what your unique strengths are. Unique is better than better. The people around you who are knocking it out of the park. Undoubtedly are focused on their unique strengths. Okay? And then once you’ve identified what those unique strengths are, then you shift to communication. This is where in person and virtually, so like in your LinkedIn profile or whatever social media you’re on, in your email signature. When you are in virtual meetings like we’re in right now, so in person and virtually, and then. Explicitly, so using words and also implicitly how you show up the whatever you have in your background. It’s no mistake that I have the corner of my university degree over here. I have some plants. I have my color-coded bookshelf. I have more books here, not an accident. I’m trying to reinforce my brand. Okay, so consistently reinforcing the unique strengths. There’s so much more that I could share with you about personal branding, and I’m happy to answer more about that in the q and a, but that’s the fourth way to establish leadership presence. And now we’re on to the last one, which is demonstrating leadership. So I don’t mean exactly demonstrating leadership presence. There are slightly different things. I mean, demonstrating leadership, and I use these words because these are the words that my clients tell me. They meet me for a consult, and they say, Andrea. My boss says that technically I have the skills and I’m ready to be promoted and I need to start demonstrating leadership. Those are like the exact words that I hear a lot, and this could be like from a junior position to a middle position, middle to senior, it happens at all levels. I need to demonstrate leadership, and again, this could come across as like vague coded feedback. And many people also say, especially if they’re earlier in their career, they’re like, it’s impossible for me to demonstrate leadership because I’m not the boss of anyone, or I’m only the boss of four people, and they want me to demonstrate that I can manage a group of 25 or more. How am I supposed to do that? So here’s what I remind you. Is that there are many, many ways that you can demonstrate leadership. So the obvious one is leading people, and if you don’t have a team that’s reporting to you, you can still informally mentor other people and you could even formally coach people by setting up training programs or whatever. So, yes. People. Leadership is a big part of demonstrating leadership, but there’s also a couple of other things here. I have proactive leadership, strategic leadership, and thought leadership. So pro what is pro, what do I mean by proactive? Well, leaders lead, right? We’re not talking about following, we’re talking about leading. So when was the last time you had a proactive thought. I’m guessing it happens all the time. Shared it with the group and did something about it. I’m talking about being super proactive. Leaders lead. When you do that, you are demonstrating leadership, right? Strategic leadership. So I often think about, I used to work at Kraft Foods and Marketing, and I remember sometimes I’d be in these big meetings where we were brainstorming something or trying to decide on advertising campaign, which campaign we were gonna go with. Something like that. Somewhat things would, the conversation would go off track, and then after a certain amount of time, some very smart person who I would say was demonstrating leadership would raise their hand and say, we’re going off track. Let’s shift back to focusing on our strategy. Remember the brand strategy? Whatever it was, let’s focus on what our priorities are instead of getting distracted. And I remember whenever someone said something like that, I’d always think, gosh, that person is so smart. What a great leader. So when you’re presenting your thoughts and when you’re in discussions with others, when. Encouraging focus and being sort of principled, like what is the brand strategy? What have we decided the core principles or ideas are that we’re gonna be pursuing this year? Being grounded in your firm’s objectives, whatever they label them will help people, will encourage people to think of you as a leader, and then this one is often forgotten. Thought leadership. So, is there something that you have expertise on? It could be something technical, it could be a leadership style. It could be something that’s related to your industry or your function where you can share either in person, like verbally, or in writing. You could write papers, or you could post it on LinkedIn. Right? Thought leadership. Private and public. Thought leadership is definitely, I mean, that’s what it’s called. Thought. Leadership. The point here is demonstrating leadership beyond people. Leadership, proactively being strategic, and using thought leadership. Okay, so. Here is the list of five ways. I mean, there are many more, but these are five ways that I would say are very common gaps that people can get a lot of traction in your foundational communication skills. Like I said, communicating with precision, boosting your confidence, developing your brand, and demonstrating leadership  Choosing Your Focus: Don’t Try to Do All Five So this list may seem overwhelming. Again, what I encourage you to do is to identify which one or two, I think more than two is probably too many. Identify which one or two you wanna commit to yourself that you’re gonna focus on. I think of these in terms of what I call the leadership presence framework. So I shared a little bit of this with you in one of the earlier slides. Impact is at the top, right? This is your goal, and it again, it could be big or small. How are you gonna get there? By establishing credibility on the first two steps. This is what I notice when I’m coaching people. We work on their foundational communication skills, and they tell me, Andrea. By working on my self-introduction, by working on my listening, by working on my formal presentation skills, and on and on, I feel my confidence boosted, right? And then when their confidence is boosted, this feeling that they have other people tell them like, what’s going on with you? Like all of a sudden, you have this credible presence in meetings, and then that’s when they can make an impact. This is the framework that I encourage you to, you’re welcome to take a screenshot if you like. I encourage you to think about this. And then I, I have these kind of rectangle, whatever the, are those trapezoids, whatever the shape is called, I need to figure that out. You can put all sorts of communication skills there. And then the interesting part here, I think, is that you can build confidence by improving your foundational communication skills, but you can also do it. By overcoming imposter syndrome and also by using the confidence-boosting mindsets and tactics that I shared, and more. And then when that happens, your credibility’s boosted. And when your credibility gets boosted, then you can make an impact. But you can also, in a focused way, improve your credibility by thinking about the different ways of demonstrating leadership. By developing your personal brand and by doing all sorts of things. By the way, Sylvia Ann Hewlett’s definition, remember the third part? It was gravitas, communication, and how you show up. The, how you show up belongs right there in the credibility, right? Like, do you look like a leader? So this is a framework that you can probably tell by my tone of voice I am so excited about because I think it gives people a framework where I know it does, because I’ve, I’ve been using it in, in my private coaching and, uh, workshops. It gives people, I guess, like a framework for them to think about where there may be some gaps for them, where they can get some traction and start to develop this leadership presence. So I’m excited to share with you that next month, starting in the third week of April, I have an executive presence and personal branding masterclass. Now I’m calling it executive presence because that’s the term that people are mostly using, but in this masterclass, it’s six weeks long. We are gonna talk about the framework, how it’s leadership presence, and we’re gonna work our way up. Up the framework. So I’m just gonna share two slides with you about this, and then I’m gonna open it up for q and a. If you wanna learn more, if you go to TalkAboutTalk.com/april2026, there’s detailed information about what’s included and everything, but here’s what you get. There are six live coaching sessions on Wednesdays starting at noon. You also will be included in a private virtual group where only the masterclass folks will be there. The group will probably be. 10 to 15 folks or so. So it’s enough that there’s gonna be people there that you’re gonna learn from and make some fantastic connections. But there’s also a lot of individual customized one-on-one coaching. So we have this virtual private group. I’m in the group as well, and asking questions and answering questions there. So that’s on 24/7. For the six weeks, you also get a comprehensive workbook that basically becomes your playbook for developing. Leadership presence or executive presence, and your personal brand, and you also get access to a recently re-released and hugely improved online course on personal branding. So the content that I had from the course that I introduced four or five years ago was great, but the production value wasn’t, and we recently improved the production value of that. So that’s the program that I’m excited about.  Wrap-Up & Live Q&A: Applying Leadership Presence in the Real World But now I would love to answer any questions that you have. So, questions about executive presence, about leadership presence, about the five ways that I shared with you, shared that I encourage you to improve your leadership presence. Any questions about the masterclass as well? I’m happy to answer.  Christie: I can ask you a quick question, I guess.  AW: Hello? Is it Hey, Christie? C: It’s Christie. Yeah,  AW: I, how did I know that?  C: Because we’ve chatted briefly before.  AW: Yeah. Nice to see you, Christie.  C: Nice to see you. Are those situations where you’re doing a presentation, and you’re showing up in executive presence, do you have like awardrobe guide or do you have like go-to places or is it just like suit navy? Like how, how deep do you go on that? Because it does impact perception, right?  AW: It does. I’m glad you asked. Okay, so, oh gosh. There’s, there’s actually so many things that I can say. If one thing that a lot of people don’t know, if you are virtual, go with solids, not prints because they pixelate and they can be distracting. So that’s one thing. So I have a photographer that I absolutely love. So she’s taken all the photos that are in my social media posts and on my website, and I brought like my favorite turquoise and white hounds tooth blazer. And she was like. I was like, it’s my favorite. It’s my signature blazer. She said, no, no, it, it’s gonna be pixelated. That’s not what you want. She said, you can wear it when you meet someone for lunch or if you’re in front of a group, but don’t wear it for photos or anything that’s online. That’s a big one. The other thing that I can tell you is if you don’t have any idea what to wear, no. That blue is most people’s favorite color. Or how do you, how do you say that? Right? Blue is the color more than other that people favor. Right?  C: So that was a tongue twister. Yeah.  AW: Blues. Blue’s a good one. I would say that the other thing that comes up a lot is formality, and I just wrote a LinkedIn newsletter on this and I say, I encourage you to dress up. And by up I do not mean more formally. I mean, look at the people. Who are up from you, who are above you, who to whom you aspire to their position, how are they dressing? And you wanna be yourself, of course, but think about what they’re wearing. I’ve started to wear like a turquoise blazer with a t-shirt and jeans or pants with really cool Adidas running shoes. I have turquoise run. I have two pairs of turquoise running shoes. Um, so you can actually have fun, and I get comments on ’em like, oh my God, love your shoes. Right? So I’ve just started doing that. You don’t have to dress up formally, but dress up like the people that you admire. And then in terms of being in front of people, Christie, I would say the most important thing truly is that you feel comfortable and elevated. So comfortable. Like, you know, if you have a like I have a blazer, actually it’s on the couch that I’m pointing to it over there in my room. It’s like a bit tight in my shoulders. Like I would never wear it if I was standing in front of a room because if I, as soon as I point up, it’s gonna be like pulling. So you wanna be like comfortable, but you also wanna feel elevated. Like, if it’s a big deal, you wanna show up in a way that you feel good. The old saying, when you look good, you feel good. When you feel good, you look good, and then you do good. Like, that’s the idea. Do you have any other specific questions, Christie, about that?  C: I totally agree on the, the being comfortable. I do think it shows up, and I do agree because I’m an on the marketing side of things. So we do that from a brand and thought leadership perspective, so that’s great. And context matters, right? Like dressing up in who you’re in front of and who you’re talking to. I don’t know. I think it would also like, I like that. Like make it your own.  AW: Yeah.  Christie: Because if you’re not authentic, I guess that must show too, right?  AW: Yeah. Yeah. So I encourage you all to think about what your thing is for how you show up. So it could, for me, it’s a color, but that doesn’t mean it has to be a I, by the way, I met a woman at a conference and she, she had an orange jacket, an orange person. I said, oh, I love your orange. She said, I wear orange all the time. It’s like my go-to, no one wears orange, so I, it makes me memorable. And I was like, good for you. Uh, so it could be a color, it could be that you always wear a great scarf or you’re really into, even, even today, ties maybe not done up all the way. I, I know some guys that it could be. Your socks, or you could really be into shoes or may, a lot of people are really into running shoes. Right? And by the way, it can change over time too. It’s not like you’re, I say turquoise, so it has, for me, I always loved turquoise. I used to be a figure skater, and I, I, my dresses were always turquoise, everything. My houses turquoise. But for most people, it’ll evolve over time. Pick a thing. I remember, I used to be on a board of a hospital, and one of the guys on the board, he was known as having great hair and. Really crisp white shirts like, like they all looked brand new, right? That was like his thing. It said a lot. It said a lot. He was, he also worked in quality control, and I was like, okay, he’s got the hair, and he’s got the shirt. Right? So, is there a way you can reinforce your brand by how you show up in terms of how you dress? Try and think about what your thing might be. Your thing might even be your stature, right? Like I’m super, not me, but someone’s like super tall or I know some people that are. Are like five feet tall and they create a narrative around themselves as like, you’ll know me when you see me. I’m like a big ball of energy, but I’m tiny in stature. And I’ll be like, okay. And then it’s like, oh, there she is. Right? So that is included as part of how you show up. Anyone else have any questions they wanna ask me out loud?  Heather: Hi, I have a question. My name is Heather. I’m looking for the raise hand emoji, but I can’t find it on the screen. So my question is, once you have communicated and you have introduced yourself appropriately, what about the dead air? Like, the small talk? I mean, you mentioned at the beginning, like I, I’m not sure, maybe that’s another podcast or another area, but. What do you talk about in this day and age and in this situation where geopolitical, you know, fever is at an all-time high. What can you actually talk about? It used the weather used to be safe, and now with climate change, that’s not safe. AW: Yeah, that’s true.  H: What, what do you talk about?  AW: It’s such a cliche, isn’t it, to talk about the weather, but the weather is often newsworthy these days. I am not a big fan of these kind of rehearsed. Small talk prompts like, so what have you done lately that really lit up your world? Or you know, tell me about the best place you visited in the last year. I, I think asking those kind of random questions that you could ask anyone is, it seems a bit trite to me and, I know I appreciate it when people are doing it because they’re trying to fill the conversation void. But instead, I would look at the person and. Ask them something about the here and now. Like literally, if you’re at a conference and you meet someone, you could say, what’s your connection to the conference? Are you a speaker? Do you know the speaker? Are you a sponsor? What? Whatever. Right? So ask them about them. Ask them. So how did you get here? Did you take an Uber or did you drive? Right? So, asking the person about them, and then the conversation will flow people. Love talking. I know you all know this. People love talking about themselves. So instead of asking these kind of generic questions, I would think like, what is context and person relevant? And then ask ’em a question based on that, like here and now with this person. I hope that helps.  H: Yeah, thank you.  AW: Yeah. Who else has a question?  Lally: Andrea. Hi. I have a question.  AW: Hello.  L: I work with people all around the world, obviously mostly remotely. What considerations should I have or anyone in this obviously room have when it comes to establishing executive presence or leadership presence when you’re working with other cultures? AW: Yeah. This is something that I’ve started to think about more and more, and I’m gonna say this is not my expertise. I. Think it takes beautiful empathy and self-awareness to know what your culture, it could be like your country or even your corporate or your industry industries have culture, right? Companies have culture. Countries have cultures. Religions have cultures. So ask yourself, what cultures am I a part of, and what are we known for, right? So if you are from, I’m gonna say Texas versus. Montana, right? There are differences in how people communicate, and so just being aware of that, and you could even call it out. You could say, I know not everybody is, so I’m from Canada, and I’m a female, so people would assume that I am soft spoken. I’m not. So I could comment on that. I could make that like I’m probably not a typical female Canadian. I’m a little bit more outgoing. I’m definitely an extrovert. Right. And then you’re like, so you’re acknowledging differences. The big thing, Lally, that I would say is especially when you know there are distinctions in culture, again, whether it’s a corporate culture or a country culture, whatever it is, industry culture, being explicit about it and sharing that you are open and that you respect other perspectives can go a long way. And even when you do that. You can mess up. I have messed up, right? People will say, well, you’re teaching this and that. That doesn’t really work in my company culture, whatever. Or you said this, and that’s offensive. I was in New Mexico about a month and a half ago, and I whistled like I do this all the time when I’m in work. I did this when I was in the MBA program teaching in the MBA program, and when I do live workshops after people are in breakout groups, I will whistle, and I did it twice and the second time I did it, this guy in the front row. Had tears rolling down his face and he was like extremely sensitive to sound. And then I obviously, I saw what was going on, so I didn’t whistle anymore. And then I went up to him and he said, I know you didn’t do that on purpose, but please. And I said, I am so, so sorry. Like, I violated something for him that was like physically he couldn’t handle it. So it’s a little bit different from culture, but my point is, if you mess up address it and you don’t need to dwell on it, right? Like, you don’t need to call the person out. Don’t dwell on it, but apologize and make sure that you’re course correcting.  L: Thank you very much.  AW: Yeah,  L: This is very helpful.  AW: Michelle Brown asked for any more tips on how to effectively introduce yourself? So I’m gonna say. This three-point framework, which I, I believe is in the chat. It’s also if you go to the Talk About Talk podcast, whether you’re in, uh, YouTube or Spotify or Apple Podcasts, if you scroll down, I have rereleased the episode on how to introduce yourself. Many times it’s always a top episode for downloads. Learning this self-introduction framework is actually a life skill beyond the, let’s go around the table, or around the room or around the screen and introduce ourselves. You can use this framework anytime. Someone says, tell me about yourself. Imagine you walk into a job interview, and the first question is, maybe you’re just meeting with a, it’s a preliminary meeting with a recruiter. Tell me about yourself. You’re like, oh boy, like where do I start? And then just use the framework. Okay. You can also use this framework, present past, future in your LinkedIn profile, in your About section. Your about section should be written in first person. My name is Andrea. I, you don’t have to say your name, but you could say, I am an executive communication coach. I am a, whatever your title is at organization, where I, my leadership style is so you’re present, present, present, and then you can shift to the past. Before I held this position, I worked, whatever. You don’t wanna necessarily, this is a tip by the way. I would say it’s not a mistake, but it is a missed opportunity. When you’re talking about your past, be it in your about section or be it in your self-introduction, if even if someone asks you about your career journey, you don’t have to default to chronology. The number of times people say, when I say to them, I used to, in my podcast, I used to say, why don’t you, why don’t we start by you introducing yourself to the audience? And then they’d be like, well, I graduated from university in 1997, and then my first role. And I’m like, oh boy, here we go. Right? Like, sorry, I didn’t ask you for your Epic bio. So instead, think about. Two or three things that are relevant, right? So my passion and my expertise is this thing, and I used it when I had this role, and I had this role, and this is what I learned, and my leadership style is blah, blah, blah. And that leadership style was cultivated from years of doing this and this, right? So don’t necessarily default to chronology again. It’s not that it’s a mistake. Our brains, they kind of default to chronology right in your self-introduction. Instead, think about what are your unique strengths that you wanna share, and then tell the story about the past to reinforce those things. I hope that helps. Okay. Um, do, oh, Magdalena. Your question is so timely. She says, do these principles also apply outside of corporate IE if you are a business owner? So I used to talk about coaching executives. All the time, right? Yes. I’m an executive communication coach. I’ve recently started to change to say, professionals and leaders. You’ll probably hear those words coming outta my mouth more often. These skills apply whether you are an entrepreneur, whether you are working in healthcare like you’re a physician or a hospital administrator. These people that I coach, actually a lot of healthcare leaders, and they will say to me, I don’t consider myself an executive, but I see the stuff that you’re coaching people on, and that’s what I need to advance my career. So it’s, yes, the answer is yes, it is absolutely relevant, and it will help you Magdalena, establish credibility with your staff, with your partners that you have. I’m sure you have partners that you’re collaborating with, and with your clients or your customers as well. So the answer is a big fat yes on that one. Um, Cesar or Cesar, I’m not sure how you say your name. Leadership is influence. Nothing more, nothing less. John Maxwell. Love it. And to have the influence, you have to have credibility. So I’m just gonna say thank you so much for being so active in the chat and here with your questions. I’ve really enjoyed it, as you can probably tell. And if you wanna connect with me, my email, I’m gonna give you my email. It’s andrea@talkabouttalk.com. If you aren’t already connected with me on LinkedIn, please do. I’m on LinkedIn almost every day. I actually love it. I just went on vacation. I forced myself not to look at LinkedIn for a whole week. It was really hard. You can find me on LinkedIn again. You can find out more about what I do at TalkAboutTalk.com. And if you’re interested in the masterclass, it’s TalkAboutTalk.com/april2026. So I tried to make it as easy as possible for you. I would love to hear from you and you can connect with me in any of those ways, and I hope you have a great rest of your week. Bye. The post Executive Presence LIVE TRAINING: 5 Ways to Boost Your Leadership Presence” (ep. 210) appeared first on Talk About Talk.
• How to Lead ENGAGING MEETINGS Where People Actually Pay Attention (ep. 209) 30.03.2026 11นาที

  Ever led a meeting where no one seemed engaged? Don’t blame your agenda or your slides. Fix your opener! In this Talk About Talk episode, Dr. Andrea Wojnicki shares three specific techniques you can use to open any meeting in a way that gets people engaged immediately and keeps their attention the whole time. No extra storytelling required. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube TRANSCRIPTION Certainly not all meetings go as planned, do they? But you’ve probably led a few of these successful meetings, the kind where people are locked in, ideas are flying around. The kind of meeting where you walk out, impressed, feeling proud, and like you actually got something done. And then you try to run the exact same meeting two weeks later, and it’s crickets.  Here’s what I figured out. After years of leading live workshops and coaching executives on communication, the difference almost always traces back to the first one to two minutes of the meeting. It’s not the agenda, it’s not the slides, it’s the opening. So today. I’m gonna share with you three specific things that you can do to start off any meeting in a way that gets people engaged immediately and then keeps them that way. Let’s do this. Let’s Talk About Talk.  Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please just call me Andrea. I’m your executive communication coach. I coach ambitious professionals like you to communicate with confidence and credibility so that you can achieve your career goals. Please check out our website, TalkAboutTalk.com. You’ll find more information there about the topics that we cover and the different ways that you can learn from workshops, keynotes to masterclasses, to online courses, and more. There are plenty of free resources for you there, too, so check them all out. It’s at TalkAboutTalk.com. The First Two Minutes Set the Tone Here’s what most of the leaders that I coach tell me: they say, Andrea, I don’t know why some of my meetings just work, and others totally fall flat, and I can’t figure out how to make the good ones. Happen on purpose. Does this sound familiar? What’s interesting is that it’s almost never a content problem. The agenda is probably more than fine. The people in the room are capable, but something about the energy at the start of the meeting sets the whole tone. If you’ve lost people in the first couple of minutes, you are fighting an uphill battle until the end. Now, if you do an online search or ask AI, how should I start my meeting? You’ll see the same advice recycled everywhere. Tell a story. Get people emotionally invested. And here’s the thing, I’m not gonna tell you that stories don’t work because they certainly do. If you’ve ever tried to shoehorn a story into the top of a project status meeting and then watched people check their phones, then you know that a forced story can somehow be worse than no story at all. So instead, I wanna give you three things that actually work every time, regardless of the type of meeting, the size of the room, or whether you consider yourself a natural storyteller or not.  Tell Them Where the Bus Is Going Technique number one. Tell everyone where the bus is going. Here’s my question for you. Would you get on a bus if you had no idea where it was headed? Obviously not, right, but that’s exactly what many meeting leaders do. They ask people to get on the bus without telling them where it’s headed. They send a calendar invite with a vague title. They kick off with, okay, let’s get started, and then they wonder why people seem checked out. Your team is sitting there doing a mental calculation in the first 30 seconds. Is this worth my time? I mean, I have to sit here, but is it in my best interest to pay attention and to participate? Or maybe I should pretend to listen while I check my email? Is it worth my time and attention? And here’s the thing, if you don’t answer that question for them, their brain answers it for them, usually with probably not. The fix here is simple. Before you get into any content, spend 60 seconds telling them exactly why this meeting is worth their attention. Not just the topic, not even just the meeting objective. I’m talking about the stakes. What is at stake here? Why it matters to the people around the table. And by the way, if it doesn’t matter to them, why did you invite them? So, what decision are you gonna make in this meeting? What problem are you solving today that we haven’t been able to solve asynchronously? What will they walk out knowing or being able to do that they couldn’t do before the meeting started? You really need to clarify this. I actually use this exact tactic every time I record a podcast episode. Before I get into any content, I tell you the listener specifically what you’re going to get, what you’re gonna learn. So before your next meeting, write down this sentence. By the end of this meeting, you will? What? If you can’t fill in that blank, clearly your agenda needs work before your opening does. Okay. So that’s the first technique. Tell your meeting participants where the bus is headed and why they need to get on the bus.  Encourage the Nod: Create Instant Alignment The second technique is what I call encouraging the nod. I want you to think about the last time you were listening to someone. It could be a speaker, maybe it was a presentation, maybe a podcast like you’re listening to right now, and you found yourself nodding along. Like, yeah, that’s exactly right. That’s my experience, or that’s what I want. That nod is not accidental. The best communicators design for it. And you can do the same thing at the top of your meeting. Open your meeting with one or two statements that name your attendees, shared reality, something like, I know we’ve all been in meetings all week, and I wanna make sure this one earns a spot on your calendar. This is well worth your time, or you could be more specific. I heard from a few of you that this decision we need to make has been making you feel stuck, and that is exactly what we’re gonna fix here today. Suddenly, you see people nodding their heads, and when you name people’s actual experience, especially if you name a pain point, they lean in, and they nod. And a nodding person is an engaged person. The science backs this up. Research on rapport and engagement shows that physical agreement cues like nodding your head actually increase your sense of alignment with a speaker. It’s like our brains believe our bodies, just like our bodies believe our brains. As the meeting leader, you might also nod to yourself and encourage the meeting participants to mirror you. You’re not manipulating anyone here. You’re just meeting them where they already are and calling it out. So here’s what I encourage you to do. Write out two sentences for your next meeting opener that describe your participants’ feeling a pain point, an experience, or something that they’re seeking. Test it by yourself. Will this encourage nodding? If not, try again. If so, you nailed it. Okay. Now we’ve covered two techniques to maximize engagement in your meetings. One, tell them where the bus is headed. Two, encourage the nod. Get Them Talking Early—and Keep Them Engaged Now, for technique number three, get them talking early. I would say this is one of the most powerful of all the techniques. There is a huge opportunity for you here. Here’s the principle. The earlier someone participates in a meeting, the more engaged they will be for the entire meeting. And this isn’t just my intuition; this is backed by research on group dynamics. I like to think of it as creating momentum or encouraging momentum. When people contribute early, they develop a sense of ownership over what’s happening in the meeting. They’ve got momentum. Staying engaged stops feeling like a chore and starts to feel like following through on something that you’ve already started. And lemme tell you something, I’ve tested this purposefully in my workshops. Same material, similar audience. When I encourage engagement early, the workshop is always more successful in large part because people stay engaged. I encourage you to do the same thing in the meetings that you lead. Get as many people as possible talking or somehow engaging in the first five minutes. There are a few different ways that you can do this, depending on the context who’s sitting around the table, the number of meeting participants, and so on. You could kick off your meeting with a quick round of self-introductions, or you could ask everyone to answer a question with a hand gesture, like a thumbs up, a thumbs down, or a count. Like, tell me, is it one or two or five or 10? You get the idea. If you’re virtual, you could drop a one-question poll into the chat. I find that much easier than creating breakout groups, but often breakout groups work really well. It’s a great way to get people brainstorming and talking, whether you’re virtual or in person. You could run a short breakout where pairs have to answer a question like, what would make this meeting a success for you? Or what’s the most important thing that we need to consider to make the decision that we’re gonna make in this meeting? You get the idea. It does not need to be elaborate. It just needs to happen before people have had too long to settle into passive observer mode. Because here’s the thing, silence in a meeting is sticky. The momentum works both ways. Once you’ve been quiet for 10 minutes, asking them to speak up feels like a big, big ask. But if they’ve already participated and spoken, that barrier’s gone, momentum kicks in. So look at your next meeting agenda and identify the earliest possible opportunity where you can design a moment where participants actually participate. A poll, a share, a show of hands. Put it in the first five minutes. It’s not negotiable.  Your 3-Step Playbook for More Engaging Meetings So let’s bring this all together. Now, the next time you are leading a meeting, before you go into the room, make sure you’ve answered these three questions. 1. Tell Them Where the Bus Is Going Number one, have I told them where the bus is going? Do they know what we’re deciding, solving, or leaving with? 2. Encourage the Nod Two, have I encouraged a nod? Have I named their reality in a way that makes them feel seen even before we start?  3. Get Them Talking Early And number three, have I built in early participation? Is there a way to get voices in the room in the first five minutes, maybe even in the first two minutes?  These are three things together that make up probably an extra three minutes of preparation for you, but they’re gonna make a huge difference between a meeting where people are fully engaged versus one where they’re mentally halfway out the door, check in their email, essentially checked out. And look, none of this requires you to be a charismatic storyteller or even an extroverted entertainer. This is about being intentional and tactical. In the first few minutes of your meeting, you got this, okay? Before you go. Whatever podcast platform you’re on, please don’t forget to hit subscribe. This way, you won’t lose out on getting even more coaching on your communication skills from me. Thanks for listening and talk soon. The post How to Lead ENGAGING MEETINGS Where People Actually Pay Attention (ep. 209) appeared first on Talk About Talk.
• What 40 Years at McDonald’s Taught One CEO About COMMUNICATION and LEADERSHIP – with Michèle Boudria (ep. 208) 16.03.2026 38นาที

  “Do not mistake my KINDNESS for WEAKNESS.” What does it take to go from working front cash at McDonald’s to becoming its CEO? Michèle Boudria, Board Director and Former CEO of McDonald’s Canada, spent four decades figuring it out, and in this episode, she’s sharing everything. Michèle shares her insights, all in the name of creating “a virtuous cycle of high performance”: a relentless focus on feedback, next-level networking, curiosity, and an authentic, people-first leadership style. This one is full of honest, practical gold on building confidence, leading with impact, and getting the right people in your corner, and leading with impact. DOWNLOAD THE LEADERSHIP PRESENCE FRAMEWORK NOW at: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/leadershippresence Whether you’re early in your career or already in the C-suite, this one will make you think differently about the kind of leader you want to be. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube CONNECT WITH MICHÈLE  🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michele-boudria/ 🌐 Website: https://www.mcdonalds.com/ca/en-ca/newsroom/executive-team/Michele-Boudria.html MICHÈLE’S BOOK RECOMMENDATION  📖 Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance by Angela Duckworth → https://amzn.to/3ZAyjCg TRANSCRIPTION Michèle Boudria: Say, do not mistake my kindness for weakness, and that is really what I believe was that kind of unlock when I was 25 years old, was I realized that I could be kind and strong and confident and successful.  Andrea Wojnicki: Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. I am so excited about this episode. A couple of months ago, I was speaking at a conference, and I met one of the other conference speakers who you are about to meet.  From Front Counter to CEO: Lessons in Leadership and Communication Her name is Michèle Boudria, and she’s the recently retired CEO of McDonald’s Canada. She started four decades ago working front cash at McDonald’s and worked her way up to CEO. She has an incredible story to share with you, and I have to say, other than hearing her speak at this conference, I really didn’t know anything about Michèle, and the way our conversation unfolded will provide you with some gold in improving your communication skills in terms of career advice, and I would say even life advice. Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk.  My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki and I’m your executive communication coach. Here at Talk About Talk, I focus on coaching ambitious professionals like you to improve your communication skills. So you can achieve all of your career goals. You can find more about what I do. If you go to talk about talk.com. On the website, you’ll find the archive of this podcast. You’ll find a free newsletter. You’ll find free resources. You’ll also find information about the private coaching, the masterclasses, and the corporate workshops and keynotes that I run. About the Guest: Michèle Boudria, Former CEO of McDonald’s Canada Okay. Let me introduce Michèle. Michèle Boudriaa’s journey with McDonald’s started when she was just 16 years old, working the counter of a restaurant in Elmer, Quebec. Four decades later, in 2025, she retired as president and CEO of McDonald’s Canada. Having led one of the country’s most iconic brands through remarkable growth and transformation, her journey included leadership roles across continents from frontline operations to the C-suite, where, as CEO, she oversaw more than 1400 restaurants, generating billions in annual sales.  She made making franchisees successful, relentless pursuit of a consistently great customer experience, and known for her operational expertise and ability to deliver results in mature markets. Michèle championed innovative pricing approaches, expanding digital channels that reached millions of more Canadians and data-driven insights to build success in the franchise network. Today, Michèle brings her decades of experience in growth strategy, operational excellence, franchise partnerships, and organizational transformation to her corporate board and community work. Here’s Michèle.  MB: At McDonald’s, it’s actually not that unique to have grown your entire career and started in our restaurants at the front cash or in the kitchen or drive through, or whatever it may be. We have quite a few colleagues around the world who have taken a similar path. You maybe don’t always make it to CEO, but you certainly take on some very important roles in the business. The Three Drivers of Success: Grit, Curiosity, and a Personal Board of Directors What I attribute my success to, it kind of boils down to three things for me. One is grit. I am a firm believer in this, the power of going after something and never stopping until you achieve it. Now, I certainly wasn’t thinking I’d be CEO when I started, but every task, every responsibility that I was given, I had to make sure that I was the best at it, that I achieved it to its full potential. So I’d say that would be one of the first things. Curiosity was probably the other one. I know that I probably drove a lot of my bosses crazy. I had millions of questions all the time if I didn’t quite know how to do something. But I thought, you know, that looked kind of interesting to be responsible for that. I’d ask a million questions to the point where they’d say, okay, you just take over and try it and see how well you do with it. And so curiosity to me was really, really important. I’d say the last was more around how do you surround yourself with the right people who are gonna give you. The good, the bad, and the ugly from a feedback perspective. And so I call that my personal board of directors. And I have over the years had some really, really, really close partners who, some are still really good friends today and continue to be part of my personal board of directors, but many have come and gone. But I’m really grateful that I had those types of people around me who gave it to me. Like I said, good, bad, or ugly.  AW: Oh, gosh. I have so many things I could say here. First of all, I love that you’re using the power of three. I mean, you could list one thing, or you could list 10 things, and you’re like, no, here are the three things. So grit, curiosity. People. So your personal board of directors. I talk a lot on the Talk About Talk podcast about the power of a growth mindset, which I think is related to your second point, well actually, maybe to all of it, but mostly to your second point and curiosity. I’d love to dig into the third point ’cause I get a lot of questions about networking and how to create a high-quality network around you, especially ambitious folks like, like yourself, like most people that are listening here, this idea of a personal board of directors comes up in conversation.  Can you talk a little bit about how that unfolded and if you have any advice for people on how to do the same? MB: Yeah, I think it, how it unfolded is I actually attended this workshop, you know, for women in leadership roles at McDonald’s, and this woman kind of introduced the concept to us, and I was really. The idea of building that, and it was literally. It’s not an interview process where I interviewed folks, but I put down the names that I thought would fit the various roles and the various type of feedback I was gonna receive or need. And to be perfectly frank, it has evolved over time because I might have been looking for different type of feedback, or if I didn’t interact with someone for a long time because our roles are so far apart, or our worlds were so far apart. At times, I would change up and get different folks to help out. You know, I firmly believe, you know, over the years I’ve had the pleasure of receiving this really rich feedback and sometimes it doesn’t feel like a pleasurable experience. But I have been really lucky and I’ll, I’ll never, you know, forget, I was really, really young. I was 25 years old. I was leading a team of about a hundred people and I. I had around me a lot of really strong businessmen, and the behavior and the leadership style was very much one of, you know, ruling with a bit of an iron fist. And so that’s what I thought was going to make me successful. And so, you know, at some point in, uh, my period as a, as leading this team. I received some pretty harsh feedback, you know, and people did not enjoy working with me. Well, the funny thing was, is I wasn’t really enjoying myself either, and so, you know, I really took that to heart. I had reflected on it quite a bit, and I decided that. You know, I was the kind of person who really cared about people. I was the kind of leader who, or wanted to be the kind of leader that was kind to people, motivated people, and got people excited about vision and strategy, and really wanting to give their best self. And I realized that doing that with an iron fist wasn’t working for me. And so I basically woke up one morning and said, that’s it. I am going to be who I am, the leader I want to be, and the style that I want. It works. And if it doesn’t, well maybe this just isn’t for me, and somewhere else it won’t work. And many, many, many years later, I look back, and I think, thank goodness that. That leader that I worked with at the time had the courage to gimme that really harsh feedback, and I applaud my team at that time for also being honest and speaking out. And by the way, they didn’t tell me because they were afraid of me. They told someone, and that was also very eye-opening. And so it has worked for me and I, you know, this is who I am, you know, I’m proud of it. It’s how I’ve led teams for all these years. And, um, you know, it’s the legacy that I’ve left at McDonald’s in my retirement is I’ve taught other leaders that you can be kind, you can, but still be confident and still be demanding and still achieve really great results. You just do it in a different way.  AW: Wow. Okay. I wanna get into leadership style, but before we go there, I wanna go back and kind of close the loop on the networking. And you used the term feedback a lot. So it sounds like you were looking for mentorship and you mentioned the word roles. So as you were creating what eventually became your personal board of directors, what was your, I guess like tactical strategy? What were you thinking like? Who do I need? Like what types of people, what role will they play?  MB: Yep. And I think your boss always plays a role, you know? And that obviously will change with whomever you’re reporting into. So that was clear. The boss was one of those folks. And I would always kind of, my strategy for each one of these roles was to say, listen, here’s what I’m really ambitious. I wanna achieve a lot, I have got lots of potential, and I wanna be able to pursue everything that I wanna pursue. I know I can’t unless I’m given really honest feedback. So this is me asking you and giving you permission to be very, very transparent and honest and timely with me when you see something. And so I’m not sure that I necessarily accepted it exceptionally well every single time. Yeah. But I would go home, reflect, sleep on it, come back in the morning, and think, you know what? You know, that was good feedback. I just need to accept it. I’ve asked for it, now I must deal with it. There’s some folks that will play more of an ally role, right? So that, that could be a peer, it could be someone who’s got some similar thoughts as mine. And so in a meeting, we might strategize a little bit so that we can deliver some strong messages together. I’d have obviously, uh, supporters and those supporters. They talk about you when you’re not in the room, and there are people who believe in what you believe in and wanna do, and they don’t necessarily have a direct connection to you, but they’re influential. And they’re in the room, and they’re making a difference for your career in these conversations. And then of course, mentors. Mentors have always been part of my, uh, board of directors. And sometimes I’ve had more than one. Sometimes I have one that’s specific to a topic because this person is an expert at this, and I really wanna draw out as much as I can from that person on this particular topic. AW: So when I read about kind of strategic networking, and by that I don’t mean being manipulative, I mean like, like thinking like you did about carefully in a disciplined way about the roles of different people in your network that are influencing your career. I hear about mentors, and also, there’s so much research about how a champion or an advocate can positively influence your career.  The one thing that I heard you say, in addition to these two roles, is the power of allies. And I think many of us don’t. I mean, maybe we naturally might side with certain people, feel a connection with people, but I think that’s a really nice ad, right? It’s not just mentors. And it’s not just the champions, it’s also allies.  MB: Yeah. And think about what that also does in the workforce. When you start to create an environment where you’re looking for allies in your workforce, the competitiveness is still there. A lot of these folks were my peers, but it becomes so healthy. Because you play, you’re each other’s ally, and so you want what’s best for both, for yourself and for that individual, and it really creates this really strong culture.  AW: I think that may be something that stands out about you compared to. I haven’t heard people articulate that so clearly. The other thing that I’m hearing quite clearly and consistently, Michèle, is your focus on feedback. And I talk about this all the time. I’ve received in the last, you know, six years as I’ve been doing talk about talk podcasts and workshops. Twice, I’ve received emails from people saying, Andrea, are you open to hearing feedback? And when I get that email, so I usually do say, you know, please run a survey after, please share the results with me. You know, I say feedback is a gift, and I really do mean that. But every now and then someone will say, are you open to feedback? And then I’m like, this is not gonna be fun. But yes. And it’s like we have this human to look for flattery and compliments, and when it is constructive criticism, it’s really, really hard. Do you have any advice for people on how to get over that? It’s not easy.  MB: Yeah. You know, interestingly enough, I think it’s in our human instincts is to focus on what you know along with the direct feedback that’s not so maybe so, you know, pleasant and positive. You generally get some constructive feedback and for some reason all we focus on is that piece. And so, you know, I always tell folks, listen to it, absorb it. Think about what one or two things you might do differently moving forward, and then put it on a shelf. Because you can’t constantly be thinking about that every time you’re talking, acting, moving, writing an email, because then it consumes you. And you’ll also then don’t even recognize all the great things that people have said about you. And so I love the fact that we run a lot of assessments on people in psychoanalyze leaders and so on and so forth. But with that is some very, very rich feedback. And you can get really caught up on one element of it and lose sight of all of the great things that have also been said. So one or two quick things you’re gonna change, put it on the shelf. Read the good stuff, move on.  AW: Okay. And the good stuff may inform something that I talk about a lot, which is your personal brand or your professional identity, right? Those are the things that you wanna reinforce, that you wanna be known for, and that ultimately become part of your leadership style. And I think the span of your career. I covered a massive paradigm shift. I always think of the Jack Welch GE era, where it was like authoritarian leadership, and here’s how you do the command and control style to improve productivity and results and blah, blah, blah. And it was like this, I guess, assumption that people had that if you were friendly, or god forbid, maternal. Your interactions at work that you were weak and you were not results-oriented. And there, there’s definitely been a shift where the people are now criticizing that authoritarian paradigm and focused on things like psychological safety, taking risks, and being authentic. Can you talk a little bit about your experience with, do you, first of all, do you agree that has been a paradigm shift and your observations there? Kindness Is Not Weakness: The Evolution of Modern Leadership MB: Yeah, it’s definitely a paradigm shift because it’s now an expectation of the workforce. If you do not shift, you’re going to struggle to build the workforce you want or the best of the best in the workforce to have them come and work for you. I live by this statement. People say it describes me to as I say, do not mistake my kindness for weakness. AW: Oh, I love that. So good.  MB: And that is really what I believe was that kind of unlock when I was 25 years old, was I realized that I could be kind and strong and confident and successful. And so there are a couple of things I think, you know, from a leadership style, being confident but not arrogant is probably one of the most important steps. Now, there is an expectation now of our workforce. We show up in a way that is absolutely confident. People won’t follow you if you’re not leading with confidence, but they certainly will not follow you if you lead with arrogance. It’s just not something the workforce today will accept. I also say get spend time, invest time in getting to know the people who work for you that matters more today than it ever has.  People want you want to know about their families, their schools, their hobbies, their pets, their likes, their dislikes, their career ambition. Once we establish that kind of relationship and they’ve seen how much you’ve invested in them and how much time you’ve spent just getting to know them and not necessarily talking about the business, then the world is your oyster. You can ask for just about anything, and that’s where I believe this like virtuous cycle of high performance comes into play, where when I have seen myself create a relationship with someone. That is so deeply rooted in me getting to know them and spending that time with them. I can ask them just about anything, and the last thing they wanna do is disappoint me, and so they go above and beyond anything I would’ve ever expected. Then I get to recognize them and reward them for incredible work. And then together we set new heights as far as what we can achieve. And then it becomes this like incredible flywheel where you’re actually getting better and better results. And then other people wanna join this because they see the success, they see the rewards, they see the appreciation. And it creates this culture of, of high performance that I, you know, have prided myself over the last, you know, several decades of making sure that I created and I go to work. This is one of the easiest jobs ever because people just wanna do more, and they just wanna do well. You know, people always said to me, Michèle, we just never wanna disappoint you, but we know if we do, it’s not the end of the world. We’ll fix it, and we’ll move on. And that, to me, the epitome of leadership, I think. And we achieved great things together, and I was really proud of the team. But along with that comes a lot of honesty. Some real deep-rooted conversations around feedback, and because you have such strong relationship, you set it up, and you say, listen, I want you to be successful and to be successful. I think you’re gonna need me to be really transparent with you. When I see some an opportunity, do you give me permission to do that? And then the answer is always yes, because they know it’s gonna come from a place of kindness, but not a place of weakness.  AW: So as you’re sharing all of these things that you thought about, that you think about, it’s becoming pretty apparent how your success happened. I wanted to double down on two of the things that you said. One was it’s confidence is a requirement. I, I say that too. I was just teaching a group about this last night, and we were talking about how. If you’re not confident, you can’t establish credibility, and people only follow people that are confident and credible, but not arrogant. So specifically, how do you, how did you prevent yourself from slipping into that arrogant territory? And if you notice someone who was reporting to you who might be, you know, they start off as a little bit more anxious, and then they build up their confidence, and then it just keeps going into arrogant territory. What would you tell them, or what, what were you thinking about to prevent that from happening?  MB: Yeah, I’d say sometimes you, um. It happens, and you don’t even notice it, right? So that’s why you’ve gotta have those great people on your board of directors who kind of remind you that it’s happening. But I also, I think if you surround yourself with the right people, I’m a firm believer that my job as a CEO of McDonald’s Canada was to have smarter people than me at the table surrounding me. And when you actually firmly believe that you don’t just say it, but you actually believe it, it’s really easy to be confident because you know you’ve put the right people at the table, but it’s really hard to be arrogant because most of them are smarter than you. And so my job is never to be the most, you know, knowledgeable financier or real estate rep, or that’s why you surround yourself with the best of the best in the industries, you know, and the functions that you require to run your business. The art of being a really strong leader is the ability to be able to do that, and people will only work for you if you are confident but not arrogant. And it’s easy not to be arrogant when you know that there are people who know more than you do around the table about their particular piece.  AW: It goes back to what you said about curiosity, and also if you’re genuinely curious.  Then you’re not arrogant, right? Like arrogant. People think they know everything.  MB: One of the things that I realized I did all the time, and it’s funny, I’ve never even thought of it, but the team would say to me after, would say, it’s so helpful when you do that because it gives permission. I, you know, as a CEO, of course, I had lots of opinions, and I had lots of thoughts on how we might do things and do better, and so on and so forth. And when I would make a statement, and I would realize that I was making a statement that could carry a lot of weight and that people might just take and run with when I was done, I’d always say, does that make sense or is anybody thinking about it differently?  AW: Wow. Yeah.  MB: And so you. Because you, you, what you need to realize very quickly is that, you know, when you take on this kind of a role, any leadership role where you have a team of people who are looking to you to set direction, vision, strategy, what you say carries a lot of weight, but you may not always have it right? And so you have to create this environment where you might make a type a statement where you might wanna create a certain expectation, but you gotta validate that it’s right. And so, you know, what it did is it just created this environment where I could push the envelope really, really far, sometimes, often, but the team would then, you know, say, well, what, you know, we need to think about this, and we might wanna reflect on that. And then we would probably get to the sweet spot of where that should be. But they were given permission, and there was an environment where they were expected to provide a point of view on my point of view. And that takes time, trust, and patience because it’s not automatic. Because you ask the question that they’re actually gonna say it. AW: Yeah. Yeah. And you’re, it sounds as if you have exceptional self-awareness. Michèle, you’re conscious of the fact that. How you respond to their questions. Maybe the risky comments that the self-perceived risky comments that they’re making when they’re questioning something that you’re recommending or suggesting your response to those things has significant impact on the moment, but really also on the culture. Right?  MB: Yeah. And I didn’t always get it right, you know, the importance of, of self-awareness and transparency. Yeah. Um, but again, when I didn’t. Most of the time, I knew I didn’t. And you know, I would take a deep breath, walk around the building, come back, and say, all right, let’s chat about it. Where did I go wrong there? And, find the person on the team who. Was in that place of trust and comfort to be able to say, yeah, maybe that wasn’t, you know, the way we shoulda handled it, or whatever it may be, but acknowledge it and correct it, and all that does is goes back to, it builds that credibility because you’re confident enough to come back and acknowledge it and get it right. AW: And encouraging them to do the same thing.  MB: And role modeling that is so critically important.  AW: Oh, Michèle, it sounds like such an incredible, such an inspiring, uh, work environment that you cultivated. You mentioned the word transparency, and previously you were talking about, you know, asking people about their family, schools, and so on. I’m wondering if you’ve thought at all strategically about authenticity versus transparency, and there’s this kind of adage that happened I guess, after COVID, during COVID, people were saying, I should be bringing my whole self to work, or wish we should be able to bring our whole selves to work. Are you bringing your whole self to work, and how that relates to transparency and authenticity in your thoughts on that? MB: I believe it’s important you create an environment where people can do that. People are at their best when they can be themselves. And I reflect back on that 25-year-old who said, I’m not happy being that Iron Fist leader either. So why don’t I just be who I am? And if it’s good enough, then it’ll be successful. And if it’s not, then maybe this isn’t for me. And I firmly believe in constantly creating this environment where people can just be who they are. I’ve seen people kind of come out of their shell and just do amazing things for the business and for their career. When they’re led by someone who they feel really comfortable with and know that they won’t be judged. Now, that doesn’t mean I always agree with everybody’s points of view. It doesn’t mean that, you know, we didn’t have debates and disagreements and really strong discussions, but done in a respectful manner. And at the end of the day, there are times where I had to make decisions that weren’t popular. Not everybody agreed with it, but if you take the time to listen to everybody’s points of view, you demonstrate some empathy. You sit in their seat for a minute, and you say, what might be their reaction to this? And if you’re able to look them straight in the eye and say, listen, I thought about what this might feel like for you or for, you know, a group of folks. And here, let me explain why I’m thinking that this is still the right decision for the business. I wasn’t. I mean, we were running a business, right? And so it still needed to be successful, and to be successful, sometimes you have to make really hard decisions. But if people knew that in the end they were allowed to express themselves, their points of view, and show up in their authentic way, whether they got their way or not mattered a heck of a lot less because at least they knew. I respected them enough to be able to hear them out, get their point of view, live in their shoes for a minute prior to making a decision. And then going forward and making the decision that was required for the business.  AW: Yeah. It sounds like you’re so skillfully walking that fine line between like personal but not personal. I mean, business is business. The business is about working with people and back to like getting to know your family, the schools, the community that you live in, what you care about, and knowing that I respect your personal advice, the advice from you about what the, whatever the business decision is. But then ultimately we’re, the decision that Michèle is making is to whatever, achieve the business goals. Preparing for the Next Chapter: From CEO to Board Leadership So, wow. I wish I’d been a fly on the wall. I wish I’d been an employee back then. So I, I wanna shift gears with all of our, uh, careers are in transition, but you’re currently undergoing experiencing a transition where you retired from this position of CEO of McDonald’s Canada, and now you are doing corporate board work. And so I’m wondering if you have any advice for the listeners about how to narrate in an effective way. Career transitions. I have a feeling that this is something that you would be very conscious of.  MB: Yeah. Get help. There are actually professionals out there who do this really, really well, and so I have, I’ve always had a professional coach, and she is, you know, one of my. Members of my personal board of directors for many years now, and she’s probably my most honest, um, you know, feedback provider that I have. And she’s amazing. And, obviously, you know, she works with a lot of companies and CEOs and boards, and so obviously she has real-life examples, example and lots of advice to offer. So she’s, you know, really important. But I’ve also worked with someone else who’s just helped me think differently about my resume, my bio, how I show up on LinkedIn, all of those things. There are professionals out there who can help you transition because when you’re in a role of CEO or any leadership role, you’re busy. You don’t necessarily have a whole lot of time to think about what does this next chapter looks like. You get in that next chapter, and that’s when you can dedicate some time for that. And as a CEO, I wasn’t on a whole lot of boards, um, because I was so focused on our business. So I had a couple of boards that I sat on, but to be perfectly honest with you. Now is a whole other world and something that I want to jump into. And they have been extremely helpful. And just last week I was talking to a young man who wanted some advice on how does he prepare for this? He’s new in business, but he wanted, and you know, and I said, listen, there are classes, there are courses you know that you should be looking into, meet with people who have successfully joined. Boards, like the ones that you’re interested in in the future, and set yourself up. And some of it, you talked about networking earlier, a lot of it is around networking as well. And you know, in some ways I wish I’d invested a little bit more in networking and in other ways I’m just being smart about how do I leverage the network that I have today to continue to build on it. And you know, good things will come, I have no doubt. But yeah, it takes a lot of preparation, and again, I just surrounded myself with people who knew how to do it really well. And took the time to listen to their advice.  AW: I have to say, Michèle, these board positions that you’re gonna land or that you have landed are exceptionally fortunate. I can imagine you sitting around the boardroom table asking the really important questions and even kind of helping. Optimize the culture, I guess, of the board and of the organization. So I can’t wait to see what you do next.  Rapid-Fire Questions But now’s the time for me to ask you the three rapid-fire questions. Are you ready? MB: I am  AW: Question number one. Actually, I don’t know the answer to this one. I’ve now met you virtually and in person, but I, I’m not sure, are you an introvert or an extrovert?  MB: So it’s changed I think over the years, and so I think professionally I’m more extroverted. But not necessarily by choice. Um, my role had, you know, me kind of in the spotlight all the time, and so one that I just embraced and worked on, but what it did is it led me to become very introverted in my personal life. Um, needed a lot of time to. Quiet time, time to recharge. And so the folks around me professionally would never say I’m introverted, but the people in my life personally would tell you absolutely. There’s definitely some introversion there for sure.  AW: I appreciate how you are distinguishing between where I get my energy clearly is solitude, recharging through solitude, right? But that doesn’t mean on the other hand, that you don’t have an energetic presence. Okay. Question number two, what are your communication pet peeves?  MB: I think people giving me the answer they think I want to get rather than what they’re really, really saying or thinking. And to me, if I’m asking you, it’s because I really wanna know what your thoughts are, but I also recognize that it takes time. You have to be patient. Create that environment where people feel that way. But if I’m asking, it’s wanna. I can kind of see through that when I’m talking with people, and I sometimes will just say, stop. I know you’re thinking differently. I don’t wanna hear what you think I wanna hear. I wanna hear what you really think. AW: So good. So good. Okay, last question. Is there a podcast or a book that you find yourself recommending lately to people in your network?  MB: I mean, talk, talk, podcast, of course.  AW:  Other than Talk About Talk. Okay.  MB: Yeah. You know what, I started with this. If you’ve ever never read the book Grit, uh, from Angela Duckworth, I would recommend it. I love the idea that grit is twice the indicator of success and intelligence. And you know, this idea also kind of goes. Well, with, um, you know, you don’t have to be the smartest person in the room. You just have to bring the smartest people around you to be successful. And this concept of, you know, grittiness and really working, you know, until you try and try and try again until you, you’re successful, to me is, has really been an unlock and realizing that. It was okay not to be that smartest person in the room. It just needed to be really gritty, and that I think, has attributed a lot to my success. I had the opportunity to meet Angela Duckworth and listen to her speak about her work and ever since then, I’ve been fascinated by this book, and I go back to it. Sometimes I’ll go back, and I’ll read a chapter because I don’t quite remember exactly everything in the chapter, but I know there’s a nugget in there that I think I can use. And I think everybody that I meet ends up buying the book because I’m like the, probably her number one cheerleader for this book.I just love the book itself, but the idea behind it.  AW: So I have to say, Michèle, that you come across as someone who truly exemplifies. The grittiness and the growth mindset that she advocates is very evident and it’s very impressive and inspiring. I wanna say thank you for joining us and is there anything else you wanna share with the talk about, talk listeners about optimizing their communication, their leadership style as they navigate their own careers? MB: I think the last thing I would just say is this world is rapidly changing, the workforce is rapidly changing and assessing and adapting your leadership style is going to be more important than ever. Now, that doesn’t mean it’s bad. It doesn’t mean that it’s, you know, you’ve done something wrong. It’s simply taking the time to assess it, and you’re likely not gonna need an overhaul. You’re probably just going to need some tweaks.  But the smart and incredibly successful leaders out there do that regularly. They surround themselves with people who give them the honest feedback in that allows them to identify where those opportunities are. So if you are not doing that exercise of reflecting on how do I need to adapt, I would suggest that that’s something you really incorporate into your annual thinking and planning and, and strategizing. Uh, every year, at the very least, give us some thought, see if there’s anything but the speed at which things are happening in our world. You’re gonna have to be a very different leader than the folks who have led in the last 40 years, myself included.  AW: Wonderful advice. Michèle. Thank you so much for so generously sharing your suggestions and your experience with us.Thank you.  MB: Pleasure. Thank you. AW: Isn’t Michèle fantastic? I enjoyed that conversation even more than I anticipated. And like I said at the beginning, I didn’t really know Michèle, and I didn’t know where the conversation was gonna go, but I know she provided us with so much gold.  Key Takeaways from My Conversation with Michèle So here are three things before we go that I wanna reinforce in terms of my learnings and things that I hope you’ll remember from this episode. They are feedback, the power of your network, and some networking suggestions. And the third thing is about your leadership style.  1. Seek Feedback—and Act on It So in terms of feedback, this I would say really was the main theme, at least for me from this conversation. Michèle provided us with a fantastic example of how proactively seeking feedback and then being self-reflective on that feedback can really catalyze and advance your career. I don’t think I could put that anymore clearly. And Michèle’s example, as I say, is the epitome of this. So instead of avoiding feedback, seek it out proactively and act on it. That’s number one.  2. Build a Strategic Network (Your Personal Board of Directors) Number two is about strategic networking. Michèle spoke at the beginning about creating a personal board of directors around her, and I’ve talked about this in past episodes and with other guests about the research and the power of having mentors. Also, sponsors, champions, or advocates. Michèle encourages us to also add a third role to our network, and that’s allies. And I know many of us do this sort of serendipitously, maybe less strategically. We make friends with people at work, but she advocates that we not only have these champions or advocates and these mentors, but also peers and allies. We can count on in our network to help us grow and improve. Back to the feedback theme, right?  3. Lead with Kindness and Confidence The third thing that I wanna reinforce with you is about leadership style. So a couple things here. Michèle described explicitly how there’s been this paradigm shift from the authoritarian dictator type leader to a more authentic and open style of leadership. She also talked about being true to your own style. She mentioned a couple of times that once she realized what her true leadership style was, she decided to embody it. Whether the organization respected that or not, and fortunately, it did. I would say, fortunately for her and fortunately for McDonald’s Canada, I loved her line. Do not mistake my kindness for weakness. Yes, you can lead a high-performing organization. You can be productive. You can meet all of your business goals. You can be strong, but also be kind. Make no mistake, I love this leadership style, and I’m optimistic that the world is evolving to a place where this kind of leader is highly valued. That’s it for this episode of the Talk About Talk podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. I would love to hear your comments. I’d also love it if you subscribe, whatever platform you’re on, whether it’s Spotify, Apple or YouTube. Wherever you’re listening, just hit subscribe and you won’t miss any episodes. Thanks for listening and talk soon. The post What 40 Years at McDonald’s Taught One CEO About COMMUNICATION and LEADERSHIP – with Michèle Boudria (ep. 208) appeared first on Talk About Talk.
• Rethinking Executive Presence: How to Show Up with Real LEADERSHIP PRESENCE (ep. 207) 02.03.2026 15นาที

  “You need to demonstrate executive presence.” What exactly does that actually mean? And why does it feel like code for “be someone you’re not”? In this Talk About Talk episode, Dr. Andrea Wojnicki shares why the term “executive presence” isn’t ideal, and how “leadership presence” should replace it. She also shares a “Leadership Presence Hierarchy” framework that highlights what specific skills you need to work on. DOWNLOAD THE FRAMEWORK NOW at:  https://www.talkabouttalk.com/leadershippresence Check out the four-tier” Leadership Presence Hierarchy” that takes you from foundational communication skills all the way to having real impact. This isn’t about conforming to some 1980s CEO stereotype. It’s about showing up authentically while commanding respect, building credibility, and getting heard. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube TRANSCRIPTION The folks that are getting promoted to the C-Suite have executive presence, but the ones who stall out do not. Since I coach senior executives and aspiring senior executives, I get asked about this topic of executive presence all the time. In fact, I’d say that over the last year I’ve noticed a real uptick in clients seeking guidance on how to establish the all elusive executive presence.  Sometimes they’re being proactive, but sometimes this high potential leader is sent to me by their HR manager, and they’ll tell me something like, this person has all the check marks for the C-suite, but they really need to demonstrate executive presence. And by the way, I always tell the person, this is very good news. Your employer thinks you have what it takes. They’re investing in you. Anyway, as I said, I’ve definitely noticed an uptick in requests for coaching on executive presence, but I have to tell you something else. I’ve also noticed increased pushback associated with this term. Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk  In this episode, I’m gonna share with you some important background on executive presence, why it’s so important, why I suggest we relabel it to something else, and a list of specific skills that you need to acquire. You can think of this as a checklist, your executive presence, or leadership presence playbook. Are you ready? Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki, and I’m your executive communication coach. Please just call me Andrea. I’m here to help you improve your communication skills so that you can achieve your career goals. In addition to this biweekly talk about talk podcast, you can learn more from me through the workshops, keynotes, and master classes that I run plus, private coaching and a growing library of on-demand online courses.  You can learn more about everything we offer at Talk About Talk by checking out the website at TalkAboutTalk.com. You can even set up a consult with me there. Check it out. TalkAboutTalk.com.  Executive Presence: Why It Matters—and Why It’s Controversial Okay, let’s talk Executive presence. Executive presence is one of those things that might be tough to define, but you know it when you see it. Am I right? The professionals that I coach tell me that it’s all about confidence, feeling, and, more importantly, being perceived as confident, but of course not. Arrogant and executive presence is necessary to achieving leadership status. This is what I hear from the HR managers, right?  The folks that are getting promoted to the C-Suite have executive presence, but the ones who stall out do not. That is why people are seeking coaching in this area. Well, here’s the good news. Executive presence can be learned. I’ve worked with senior folks with exactly this quandary. They have all the technical skills and people like them. They’re likable. People are rooting for them, but they’re missing this magical executive presence. I remember coaching a senior partner at a consulting firm. Who had this exact experience, and after I worked with him for about two months, he started to feel more confident, but also, at least as importantly, he started getting comments from others about his improved confidence and his presence. So what exactly is this executive presence? One of the most common definitions that you’ll hear is from an author named Sylvia Ann Hewlett. She says executive presence is a set of qualities that enable leaders to inspire confidence in others. In her research, Sylvia highlights. Three, of course, three ingredients that comprise executive presence. One, communication skills as in public speaking, body language, and so on. Two, gravitas as in confidence, integrity, unflappability, and three, appearance. In other words, how you show up. When I read this list of three ingredients, I thought. Oh good. This is all about communication. Of course, there’s communication skills, she says, but also gravitas and appearance. And to me, all of these things are communication. And the good news again is that communication can be learned. So we can think of executive presence in terms of Hewlett’s definition. Executive presence is a set of qualities that enable leaders to inspire confidence in others. And you can also think of it specifically in terms of these three ingredients. She highlights these ingredients as communication skills, gravitas, and appearance. Now, before I go on, I also wanna clarify what executive presence is not. First of all, executive presence is not a title. In other words, you don’t need to be in the C-suite to have executive presence, and actually, not everyone in the C-Suite has executive presence. Of course, if you do have it, you’re more likely to ascend the corporate ladder. Executive presence does not equal title or status. Executive presence is also different from expertise. I mean expertise as in technical skills. Of course, expertise is also something that we need to succeed in our careers, but executive presence is very different from expertise. What I often observe is that people who come to me for coaching, they often have technical expertise and they’re looking to brush up on their executive presence. So executive presence is not the same as status. It’s not the same as expertise. It’s also different from charisma. Charisma is more about energy and emotional impact. Charisma can help boost your executive presence, but I would say executive presence is broader. Charisma is about attracting and energizing people. It’s often associated with extrovertedness. On the other hand, executive presence is about substance plus delivery, and you definitely do not need to be an expert to have executive presence. That said, I’ve noticed that many people conflate executive presence with extroversion. This is just wrong, and this isn’t the only issue that I’ve been hearing and reading about executive presence. It wouldn’t be an exaggeration to say that the term executive presence turns many people off altogether. I have a masterclass that I run a few times a year, focused on. You guessed it. Developing executive presence and your personal brand, and more than a few times, I’ve had to carefully define with people exactly what I mean and what I don’t mean when I say executive presence. Generally, it seems that some people are legitimately turned off when they’re told that they need to develop executive presence because it often feels like vague-coded feedback that’s used to block their promotion.  And this happens especially to women and racialized people more than once. I’ve heard people say that when they hear the term executive presence, an image of General Electrics or GEs former CEO, Jack Welch comes to mind, along with what they see as his direct, non-inclusive, formal, authoritarian leadership style nowadays. Our celebrated leaders are authentic. Yes, I said it. The A word and inclusive, I guess that’s the I word. Importantly, today’s celebrated leaders are listening to learn, not narrow-minded and authoritarian.  From Executive Presence to Leadership Presence For all of these reasons, I suggest that we change the term from executive presence to leadership presence. Executive presence is just too loaded. Leadership presence is something that many of us aspire to. This term, leadership presence might just be more ethical and better for business outcomes. It can also be used in context outside of the executive boardroom, like with the other professionals. I coach leaders in medicine, leaders in law, and so on. They don’t call themselves executives, but they do aspire to leadership. So what do you think? Let’s call it leadership presence.  The Leadership Presence Hierarchy: From Skills to Impact Now, what I’d love to share with you is my model for developing leadership presence. This model is based on my reading of books and articles on yes, executive presence, plus my observations from coaching hundreds of professionals, thousands. If you include the corporate workshops that I run, it’s a framework that I illustrate as a hierarchy. If you’re watching on YouTube, you can see this hierarchy on the screen. If you’re listening, you can easily download the framework. If you go to talk about talk.com/leadership presence, that’s talk about talk.com/leadership presence. Yes, I made it easy for you, of course. So whether you’re looking at the framework right now or not, I can describe it to you.  Level 1: Foundational Communication Skills At the bottom of the hierarchy, we have foundational communication skills, things like body language, storytelling, listening, communicating with precision, vocal presence. I call these foundational communication skills, not because they’re easy. In fact, folks with true leadership presence often go back and revisit these foundational communication skills to elevate their leadership presence, but I call them foundational because they’re at the bottom. And here’s what my clients tell me. When we’ve been doing some work to elevate or improve their foundational communication skills, they start to feel confident and they’re often told that they appear more confident by others.  Level 2: Building Confidence (Internal and External) So this makes up the next level of the hierarchy of confidence. Again, this is both confidence in terms of how you feel and how you’re perceived. The interesting thing about this level is that there’s a couple different ways of elevating your confidence. As I said, you can do so by improving your communication skills. You can also directly improve your confidence by doing things like learning about imposter syndrome and how to overcome it. You can also learn mindsets and tactics that are specifically focused on elevating your confidence. Things like slow deep breathing.  Things like expansive body language and things like positive self-talk. These are all tactics that can directly boost your confidence. So here, we’re ready for the next step. We’ve started with our foundational communication skills. We’ve experienced improved confidence.  Level 3: Establishing Credibility Once we are feeling more confident and we’re being perceived as more confident, this is when we start to establish credibility. Again, there are things that we can do to directly boost our credibility. I’ve got three ideas. One, focus on developing your personal brand. Two, focus on demonstrating leadership, and three, focus on your influence. So let me go into a little bit of detail about each of these.  Credibility Driver #1: Define and Reinforce Your Unique Personal Brand First focusing on establishing your unique personal brand. Notice the term unique. As I said at the beginning, one of the criticisms of this executive presence notion is that some people believe it means conforming to a stereotype of what a leader should look like. Personal branding. Is the opposite of this. The way I coach personal branding. It’s about identifying, articulating, and reinforcing your unique brand, your unique strengths and passions. So this is the opposite of conforming. It’s about standing out as your true, unique, and best self. So that’s one way that you can really help establish your credibility.  Credibility Driver #2: Demonstrate Leadership (Proactive, Strategic, Thought) The second is by demonstrating leadership. When I coach people on demonstrating leadership, I often share with them that the obvious way to demonstrate leadership is to be a good people leader, right? That’s where our mind goes to when we hear the word leader. But don’t forget, there are many, many ways to demonstrate leadership. Consider, for example, just being proactive, being the person who comes up with innovative and creative ideas. If you think about it, leaders lead; they are out front. Proactive. So be proactive, and people will see you as a leader. There’s also strategic leadership. The leaders that we admire are strategic thinkers, right? They’re identifying and then reinforcing strategy. They think strategically. So there’s people leadership, there’s proactive leadership, there’s strategic leadership, and there’s also thought leadership. What area do you have expertise in where you wanna share your thought leadership? Privately inside your organization and even publicly on social media and beyond. So thought leadership. And then the last thing that I share with my clients who I’m working with on demonstrating leadership is simply using the word lead. Use the word lead led leadership leader, especially when you’re referencing yourself, and people will start to think of you as a leader as well. Okay, so we’re still at this, almost at the top of our leadership presence hierarchy. We’re at the credibility stage, and we’ve talked about developing your personal brand. We’ve talked about demonstrating leadership.  Credibility Driver #3: Strengthen Your Influence The third way that you can reinforce your credibility is by focusing on influence. This is about negotiating and making an impact. This is about being heard. If you think about it. This is all about effective communication skills and confidence, too. Do you see how all the layers reinforce themselves? So now you see how this leadership presence hierarchy works. Again, we start with the foundational communication skills, and as we improve our communication skills, we start to feel and be perceived as more confident. There are things we can do to further. Improve our confidence, and that’s when we start to establish credibility again. There are ways that we can reinforce our credibility, personal brand, demonstrating leadership, and working on our influence.  The Apex: Creating Real Impact Once we’ve done all of these things, we reach the apex or the top of the leadership presence hierarchy, which I label as impact. What that impact is is personal. For you, it could be getting a new job, it could be getting a promotion. It might simply be being heard in meetings when you’re at work, you can achieve impact when you have leadership presence.  And that’s it for this episode. I hope you’re feeling a little bit more informed and inspired to develop leadership presence. Now I have an ask, two asks, actually. First, please hit subscribe. Wherever you’re listening, whether it’s Spotify, Apple, or YouTube, wherever you are, please hit subscribe, and then you won’t miss any of the communication skills, coaching tips that you get from me and Talk About Talk every two weeks. My second ask is that you share this episode with a friend. Do you have a friend who might benefit from these insights on executive presence and leadership presence? Spread the word. Thank you. So much, and thank you for listening. Talk soon. The post Rethinking Executive Presence: How to Show Up with Real LEADERSHIP PRESENCE (ep. 207) appeared first on Talk About Talk.
• Dealing with Difficult People at Work – Part 2 (ep.206) 16.02.2026 19นาที

  You know the person: they derail meetings, push back on everything, and somehow make simple projects complicated. So how do you actually handle it without losing your mind? In this Talk About Talk episode, Dr. Andrea Wojnicki walks you through exactly what to do when you’re dealing with difficult people at work, whether that’s a customer, a direct report, a peer, or even your boss. If you’re wondering when and how to escalate the situation, Andrea’s five-step escalation sequence provides you with a step-by-step playbook. You’ll also learn the two-word principle that keeps you from getting pulled into drama with difficult people. This is Part 2 of a two-part series. If you haven’t listened to Part 1 yet, start there to get the foundational framework. Then come back here for the specific tactics. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube TRANSCRIPTION How to Respond When Difficult Behavior Continues Focus on the issue, not on the person. Refuse to get pulled into the, you always do this, you’ve done this, you shouldn’t do that. You can’t do this. It’s not about you and me. It’s actually about the issue or the challenge. Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. This is part two of a two part mini series on how to deal with difficult people. So here’s the question. Have you noticed someone at work who’s being chronically difficult, confrontational, or nasty? Either to you or maybe to everyone. Have you tried to diagnose what’s going on based on the Dr. David rock scarf framework and still nothing has changed? Well, I hope what you’re about to learn in this episode will have a positive impact. Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk. We’re going to. Strategies for how you can respond to these difficult people depending on who they are. And I’m also gonna share a sequence of steps that you can follow, steps that you should follow if things aren’t changing or perhaps if they’re getting worse. Let me start with strategies for how to respond to different people. How you respond, what you do can and should vary depending on who it is that’s being difficult. How to Respond Based on Who’s Being Difficult So I’m gonna run through this list of five different types of people or categories of people and what you should and shouldn’t do depending on who they are. That’s being difficult. You’ll see what I mean in a minute. So the first one. Is no one. So it’s not that the person is being difficult, it’s actually that you are in a difficult or a challenging situation. In this case, I say, great, the opportunity here is for you to pull the team together and go for a win. Corral the group and focus on what you can do to overcome this difficult situation. Okay, that was a little bit of a cheater. Now let’s get into the actual people. So imagine you have this scenario where it’s either a one-off situation or a customer or a client who is chronically difficult. The first thing I suggest you do is pause. Don’t get caught up. Getting emotional and responding in a reactionary way to how this difficult client or customer is acting. The second thing that I do, and this one is magic, focus on the issue, not on the person. Refuse to get. Pulled into the, you always do this. You’ve done this. You shouldn’t do that. You can’t do this. It’s not about you and me. It’s actually about the issue or the challenge, and it’s the issue or the challenge that they are probably experiencing. So you could say, Hmm, I understand how this would be very frustrating, or, let’s work on this together. I think we can solve this. You’re focusing on. The issue or the challenge, not the person, it’s the situation, not the person. And then the third thing, I alluded to this a little bit here in the example that I gave. Use the pronoun, we make the default that you are working with this client or this customer in solving the challenge. Okay? So again, if it’s a client or a customer, pause. Don’t react before thinking and remind yourself, focus on the issue or the situation, not on the person, and use the term we be inclusive and encourage you to work together to solve the problem. So that’s the first one. The next one is if it’s a peer. In the previous episode, I shared a scenario where a newly promoted partner named Leanne was being challenged on a daily basis by her peer named Mike, who is also a partner at the same consulting firm where she worked. Here’s what you do with a peer. You have the opportunity to get personal. I don’t mean necessarily that you’re sharing your private thoughts and your personal life with the person, but I just mean get them into a one-on-one situation and share how you’re feeling. I actually shared this advice with Leanne when I was coaching her. I suggested that she invite Mike. To go out for lunch or for coffee and then talk to him. Say like, I noticed our relationship has really changed since we started working together as partners, and we used to confide in each other and help each other and celebrate each other. And I’d really love to go back to that because I think we can make each other look really good. We could be a team. You don’t need to necessarily need to go that far, but getting personal is a suggestion that works really well if the difficult person is your peer, someone who’s at your level. Moving on. What if they’re not at your level, but they’re actually below your level? It might be someone that you are managing that’s reporting to you, or it could be someone in a different department, but they are at a lower level in the organization, in the hierarchy. From where you are in this case, this is your opportunity. If they’re being chronically difficult to highlight the values, the expectations, and even the resources that the organization provides. People are being difficult. So I’m imagining someone here who you know is disrupting meetings, is disrupting progress and productivity in the projects that you’re working on. And so you pull them aside and you say, listen, it seems like things aren’t as productive and positive. As I was hoping they would be. And I wanna share with you that this is not consistent with the values of the organization in this organization. We pride ourselves on being collaborative and on and on and on. So you talk, highlight the firm’s values, the expectations of the organization, and even potentially, as I said, resources that you can share. It could be learning opportunities or other things, coaching to, uh, help the person. Whatever the challenges that they’re experiencing. Okay, so that’s if it’s a subordinate. The next one gets really interesting, and I have two suggestions. If it’s your boss, things can get pretty tricky. So I have two suggestions. The first is a quick one. The second one requires a little bit of an explanation. So the first one, the quick one is if you are reporting to someone who is chronically difficult, you can ask yourself. What can I learn from the situation? What can I learn about what I do not want to do if and when I get promoted to this level? I remember coaching a very impressive woman who was working in not-for-profit, and she was reporting to the executive director who was basically responsible for the not-for-profit and who reported into the board of directors, and she said, this woman was an absolute. Tyrant, of course not with the board, but with her direct reports, including my client. And so I said, if nothing else, you can learn from this situation. What not to do when you someday become an executive director of a not-for-profit and you’ll know exactly what not to do. And in fact, fast forward a couple years, she now is an executive director of a different not-for-profit. And she said, I have a playbook of what not to do, how not to treat my staff. So that’s one way of kind of it. It’s not overcoming the situation, but it’s reconciling it in your mind, how you can maintain a sense of productivity and maybe even job satisfaction. You’re learning what not to do. The second one here, I’m gonna say this is a little bit personal because this is advice that I received from my father when I had the experience of reporting to a boss who was being very difficult and chronically so. So I have this distinct memory of. Presenting something to, it was my boss’s boss at the time, at a meeting where he had challenged me and the team that I was leading to meet certain challenges. And if we did, we were gonna be given permission to launch a new product. My team had gone away under my direction, established what the criteria that we were gonna achieve. And we had worked together really hard to achieve this criteria, these benchmarks. And I went back with great pride in anticipation and presented our results and our recommendations for the new product launch to my boss’s boss. And he was like, eh, I don’t know, Andrea, I mean, whatever. And I was like, what? I remember I was so upset. I eventually did convince him that we should launch the product that we had worked so hard on. But I remember being so upset and I actually went. I left the building. I went down to my car and I called my dad and I was commiserating. I said, dad, I don’t know what to do. I don’t know how much longer I can handle this. I’m asking my team to jump through hoops, and they’re doing so and they’re exceeding my expectations. And then when I go to this guy, he’s constantly changing his mind. He’s a horrible boss. And my dad asked me this question that I’m now sharing with you. He said, does your boss’s boss do his values reflect. The values of the organization, or is he an anomaly? And I said, why do you ask? He said, very simple, Andrea, if his values reflect the values of the organization and you are misaligned, you need to get outta there. However, if he’s the anomaly, if your boss’s boss is the one whose values contradict, not only yours, but also the values of the organization, things typically have a way of working out. I was like, Hmm, that kind of makes sense. I would say in this case, it’s the latter. My boss’s boss is an anomaly. I know a lot of people get frustrated with him and his values are not aligned with those of the organization, and he said, well, my suggestion is not forever, Andrea. That would be ridiculous, but. You could probably wait this out and things have a way of working out. And you know what? My dad was right within a couple months. This guy, he was a vice president at the time. He got moved into a different department and then he got let go and I thanked my father and I have shared that advice with plenty of people who say, this is very sage advice. So if it’s your boss. First of all, ask yourself, what can I learn about how not to manage people from this person? And secondly, ask yourself whether their values and their behavior are aligned with the values of the organization. If they are not, you can wait it out. If they are, you probably need to make a move. So we’ve covered now a couple of different scenarios, maybe. No one is being difficult, and it’s the situation that’s your opportunity to pull your team together. Perhaps it’s your client or your customer who’s being difficult, in which case I shared three suggestions. Pause, focus on the issue and use the term we, if it’s your peer, get personal. If it’s your subordinate. Highlight the values, expectations, and resources of the organization. If it’s your boss, as I just said, ask yourself, what can I learn about what not to do? And ask yourself whether their values are aligned with the organization. There’s one other person that it might be that’s being difficult. If it’s everyone, if everyone around you, all of your clients. Your peers, your subordinates, your boss, your family, your friends. If everyone is around you is being difficult, then I have to say it’s probably you. I’m just kidding. That never happens. So that’s my summary of the differential advice that I have for you for dealing with difficult people depending on who it is. A Step-by-Step Sequence for When Things Don’t Improve Now, this is critically important. What’s the sequence to follow when things. Aren’t getting better or maybe they’re even getting worse. Well, I have a list. This is a sequence, a step-by-step sequence of things that you should do. I distinctly remember sharing this with a senior leader whom I coached last year. She was on the senior leadership team at her corporate law firm, and she hired me to help her communicate with more credibility and authority. She also specifically asked me how to respond to one of her peers. Another corporate lawyer who constantly interrupted her in their leadership team meetings. I shared the sequence with her then that I’m gonna take you through right now. Are you ready? So the first thing is to casually reference whatever it is, secondly, publicly and directly reference it. Three, check in with others and get an ally. Four, ask the person directly and emphatically. And the fifth and last step. Is to escalate to HR or senior leadership. A lot of folks, including this woman, this corporate lawyer that I was coaching, they find themselves in these scenarios where they’ve, they really don’t have a strategy or a sequence to follow. And having this sequence will make you feel like you’re in a little bit more control, and it’ll make sure that you are not wasting any opportunities to try to correct the situation. The idea here is that hopefully after step one or after step two or after step three, the sooner the better. The behavior is gonna change with a difficult person, so. After you’ve started to notice what’s going on, and maybe you’ve even jotted down, I remembered it started on such and such date, you could put it in a journal or in an email to yourself or something. The first thing you should do is casually reference it. So I told this woman, this corporate lawyer, and I’m telling you, you could almost make a joke out of it. You’re in a meeting, the guy interrupts you. You say, Hey, you keep interrupting me. No, go ahead. Go ahead. Right. You’re casually referencing it sometimes. Calling it out. Labeling the behavior will encourage the person to stop. Often not, but sometimes step two is much more direct. This is where you publicly and directly referenced the behavior. So in the case of this corporate lawyer and this peer of hers that kept interrupting her, she said to him when he interrupted her twice in a meeting, she said, that is the second time. In the last 10 minutes that you’ve interrupted me, I’m gonna finish my sentence and then I’d love to hear what you have to say. She said, I’m gonna finish my point here and then I’m gonna pass it over to you. And then she didn’t even pause. She just kept talking and turned it over to him. So this is step two, publicly and directly referencing the behavior. This is a little bit more emphatic than the casual reference, right? If that doesn’t work, you move on to step three. This is when you check in with others. And potentially get an ally. So this woman with this gentleman who was interrupting her constantly, she went to one of the other senior partners and she said, listen. I’m not gossiping behind someone’s back. I just wanna make sure that what I’m witnessing here, what I’m experiencing is real. I’ve noticed that whatever the guy’s name is, Sam is constantly interrupting me. I’m worried that it’s affecting my credibility and I’m feeling like my voice isn’t being heard. Is it just me? And the guy was like. It is not just you. It is absolutely not just you. I can’t believe that you’ve put up with it for as long as you can. And that’s when she went in for the ally. She said, listen, the next time we’re in a meeting and I asked him to not interrupt me. If he keeps doing it, do you mind stepping in? And he goes, absolutely. In fact, you don’t need to say anything. I’ll say it. And so the next meeting that they went to, guess what happened? The guy interrupted her and her friend Sam stepped in and said, listen. You’ve been interrupting her over, not just this meeting, but many meetings, and we all need to respect each other and to listen to what the points that we’re making. Please let her speak. Guess what? The interruption stopped. So that’s step three. Check in with others. Make sure you’re clear by the way, when you’re checking in, this is not about gossiping. This is about confirming whether what you’re experiencing. Actually is what other people are witnessing and the opportunity potentially to get an ally on your side. If that doesn’t work, step four. Is directly and emphatically asking the person to stop. So I shared with this client, this corporate lawyer, if he doesn’t stop, after you get an ally to step in for you, that’s when you book a meeting with him. Ask him to come into your office, close the door, look him in the eye and say, I’ve been tracking this for the last three months. You’ve been interrupting me. It is affecting my credibility. It’s affecting our productivity as a leadership team, and I’m asking you to stop. That step is also necessary because if it doesn’t work after that, you go to step six, which is escalating to human resources or senior leadership. And here’s where it’s really important that you have followed the previous four steps, because if you go to hr, the first thing they’re gonna say is, have you asked them to stop? Then they’re gonna say, have other people noticed this? Have you directly and emphatically asked this person to stop whatever the behavior is? Right? And you’re gonna say, I first noticed on this day, I casually referenced it on this day. I publicly and directly referenced it on this day. I checked in with so-and-so. He or she confirmed that I’m not crazy. This is actually what’s going on. They became an ally. They also asked the person to stop, and then I booked a meeting with the person and directly and emphatically asked them, so you’re going in. In good faith, telling them that you tried to solve the problem, you solve yourself. You did everything in your power and it didn’t work. This will help you maintain credibility with HR or senior leadership before you escalate it, and then you can turn things over to them knowing that you’ve done everything that you could. Wrap-Up & Key Takeaways Okay, so now in this episode. We’ve covered strategies for how to respond to different people who are being chronically difficult, depending on whether they’re your customer or your client, or your peer, or your subordinate or your boss. Different strategies work for different people, and now you also know the sequence to follow. When things don’t get better, one casually reference it two publicly and directly reference it. Three. Check in with others and get an ally. Four. Ask them directly and emphatically, and then five, you can escalate it. I hope that this episode in combination with the previous episode 2 0 4, where we talked about the mindset you need to adopt and the scarf framework for diagnosing what’s going on. I hope this helps you feel better equipped on how to deal with difficult people. Please. Let me know how it goes. I know it’s not pleasant, but these skills will help you immensely. And don’t forget to subscribe to this talk about Talk podcast no matter what podcast platform you’re on. Click subscribe now so you don’t miss any of these opportunities for communication skills coaching. Thanks for listening and talk soon. The post Dealing with Difficult People at Work – Part 2 (ep.206) appeared first on Talk About Talk.
• Dealing with Difficult People at Work – Part 1 (ep.205) 02.02.2026 11นาที

  If you’re dealing with a difficult person at work, this episode will help you handle it. Dr. Andrea Wojnicki shares a simple mindset shift that will help you feel empowered, plus a 5 word mantra that changes everything. Andrea shares a real client story about a newly promoted partner who was being undermined by a colleague, and how this simple mindset shift completely transformed her experience. You’ll also learn the S.C.A.R.F. Framework, a powerful diagnostic tool created by Dr. David Rock. This framework helps you understand exactly why someone is being difficult (Status, Certainty, Autonomy, Relatedness, and Fairness) so you can respond strategically instead of reacting emotionally. This is Part 1 of a two-part series. In Part 2, you’ll learn specific do’s and don’ts for dealing with difficult customers, direct reports, peers, and even your boss, plus a step-by-step sequence for when things escalate. If you’re ready to stop dreading these interactions and start handling them with confidence, this episode is for you. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube TRANSCRIPTION Why Dealing with Difficult People Is Part of Leadership Part of your job is dealing with these difficult people. It might not literally be in your job description, but ask yourself this: as a senior leader, who else is gonna deal with these difficult people? Unfortunately, dealing with difficult people at work is a common challenge. In fact, I have to tell you this, I’ve noticed that requests for coaching and workshops on this topic are becoming more frequent. Let me tell you why I encourage you to listen to this episode. Personally, I am a pretty positive person. I’m definitely an optimist, and I’d prefer to only cover positive topics if I could here at Talk About Talk. But the demand for strategies for dealing with difficult people is real. Here’s the good news. You are going to learn some. Actionable frameworks and strategies for dealing with these difficult people that really work. You will feel empowered. Are you ready? Let’s do this. Let’s Talk About Talk.  About the Host: Dr. Andrea Wojnicki Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach here at Talk About Talk, where I coach driven professionals like you so that you can communicate with confidence and ultimately achieve your career goals. You can learn more about everything we do here at Talk about Talk, including private one-on-one coaching and online courses. Corporate workshops and more. If you go to talk about talk.com, we just relaunched the website, and there are plenty of free resources there for you as well, including my free communication coaching newsletter. Okay, let’s get into this. In this episode, you are going to learn a deceptively simple strategy that I promise will help you deal with difficult people, and also you’re gonna learn a framework to help you diagnose what exactly is going on with these difficult people. This, of course, will inform you about how to respond if you have a diagnosis. It tells you what the treatment is, right? First, though. The deceptively simple strategy.  Leanne and Mike: When a Peer Becomes the Problem Let me tell you a quick story about a client. Let’s call her Leanne. Leanne was an incredibly driven consultant who hired me to help her boost her communication skills. She actually called me her secret weapon. She was gunning for a big promotion to partner at her firm, and it turns out she got that promotion when we were just a few months into our six-month coaching program. But that is when things got really difficult for Leanne, as in. She started to have to deal with difficult people. Actually, one main person, let’s call him Mike, actually, I think his name might have been Mike. So Leanne and Mike started at the firm at about the same time, and he got promoted just a few months before her. They were both new partners and their offices were near each other. To Leanne’s surprise, things got pretty ugly pretty quickly. She told me that Mike seemed to be going out of his way to undermine her. He would argue with her. He would argue with the recommendations that she made in meetings. He would raise his eyebrows and shake his head when she spoke up, and he even organized meetings and forgot to invite her. So publicly and privately, in person and online, Mike was being a very difficult person. Leanne told me that at first she decided to ignore it, but then that didn’t work. So she tried to go out of her way to be friendly with Mike. Guess what? No change. She even tried fighting back, as she called it, in one of her meetings when he disagreed with her, and she ended up coming across as defensive and regretting her response. Andrea, what should I do?  “It’s Part of My Job”: A Simple but Powerful Reframe She pleaded, here’s what I told Leanne, and here is what I’m telling you. This is a deceptively simple mindset shift that you’ll need to adopt to survive as a senior leader, especially when these difficult people rear their ugly heads. It’s a five-word mantra. Are you ready for it? Here it is.  It’s part of my job. Lemme say that again. It’s part of my job. What exactly do I mean by that? Well, here’s the thing. When you’re junior in your career, and maybe even when you’re a middle manager, you have a boss who’s looking over your shoulder, making sure you’re learning the technical skills and doing everything right and checking all the boxes for you to help you get promoted. And if someone slows you down, if there’s a difficult person that gets in your way, it’s your boss’s job to fix the situation. But then, when you advance up the corporate ladder, here’s the insight. Part of your job is dealing with these difficult people. It might not literally be in your job description, but ask yourself this: as a senior leader, who else is gonna deal with these difficult people? It’s now part of what you do, so accept it and figure out how, instead of dwelling on how negative the situation is, dwell on your skills to deal with it. When I shared this insight with Leanne, she told me, okay, Andrea, that makes sense. I’m gonna try it out, and I’ll let you know what happens then. At our next coaching session, she couldn’t wait to tell me how this simple mindset shift helped her deal with Mike. She told me, Andrea, when I see Mike’s name in my inbox now, or when he knocks on my office door, I actually smile to myself, and I say, here comes part of my job. You got this. And then that’s what she does. It’s empowering. It makes you feel less like a victim. So I encourage you to try this too. Instead of dwelling on, woe is me. Why do I have to deal with this difficult person? Instead? Remind yourself that as a leader, this is part of your job. And then. Get on with it, but what exactly do you do from there? Well, I do have some suggestions.  The SCARF Framework: Diagnosing Difficult Behavior So the first thing I want to share with you is a framework that will help you diagnose what is going on. When I teach this framework, people tell me they love it, and I hope you love it too. It’s called the SCARF framework. I didn’t create it. It was created in 2008, about 25 years ago, by Dr. David Rock. And frankly, I have to say, I’m a bit surprised that this framework hasn’t gotten more traction. Most people tell me they haven’t heard about this. Maybe I should invite Dr. David Rock to be a podcast guest here to talk about Talk. Okay. Here is Dr. Rock’s scarf theory. He says that our behaviors are guided in part by five things that we seek. If any of these five things come under threat, we act out as in yes, we become difficult. Scarf is the acronym that will help you remember what the five things are. S-C-A-R-F stands for status, certainty, autonomy, relatedness, and fairness. Got that. Its status, certainty, and autonomy. Relatedness and fairness. You can find the list in the show notes, but let me briefly define each of these and share some ideas on how you might respond if you diagnose someone as feeling like any one of these things is under threat. Okay. The first is S status. Status is about respect and acknowledgement. Maybe with a competitive edge. It’s a little bit about standing out. When I was coaching Leanne, I asked her whether Mike might feel like perhaps she threatened his status. Yep. When people feel respected and important, their status is secure. They’ll feel more engaged at work. If their status is threatened, they may lash out because they feel embarrassed or diminished. So what can you do? You can appeal to their need for status. And I’m telling you, this works. Okay, so that’s the first one. S is for status, Part of your job is dealing with these difficult people…” and the next one, C, is certainty. The example I always give with certainty is COVID. Do you remember how uncertain we all felt? Like, how dangerous is this really? And how long is this gonna last? And on and on. And of course, our anxiety and our stress levels skyrocketed. We were feeling uncertain, and many of us lashed out. The best leaders in organizations are the ones who provide certainty if someone’s being difficult because they feel things are uncertain. What you can do is make them feel certain, provide them with predictability, and tell them what the plan is. That’s it. Okay, moving on. The third one is autonomy. Autonomy is about control. It’s about being independent. When we lose control, when our autonomy is under threat, we might become difficult. It’s natural, like when employers say we have to come back to work on certain days, and maybe for certain hours. Some people feel like their autonomy is under threat. And you know what? That’s fair. Do you see how this works? So we’ve covered it. S is status. C is certainty. A is autonomy, and by the way, I have to mention this, these are not mutually exclusive. You can experience one or more of these things at the same time. Or if someone’s being difficult at the workplace, you might diagnose them as potentially feeling like two or even three of these five things are under threat. Moving on. The fourth is r. Relatedness or I say relationships. This is about social groups. We are social beings, and we all wanna be in the ingroup. However, you define that. If someone feels like their status as being in this ingroup is threatened, you better believe they’ll act out. On the other hand, have you ever noticed how you feel when someone refers to you as being in the collective, the we and the us, and how satisfying that is? That’s what I’m talking about here, relatedness. Okay. We’re onto the last one. F. Is for fairness. Fairness as in consistency. Consistency over time, and consistency across people. This is a common one that people tell me is their diagnosis. When someone’s being difficult at work, it’s often because that person perceives that something is just not fair. Okay, so there you go. Scarf status, certainty, autonomy, relatedness, and fairness.  Wrap-Up: How to Apply SCARF—and What’s Coming in Part 2 Are you trying to deal with someone who’s being difficult at work? Here’s my suggestion. First, stop complaining about it and tell yourself, this is part of my job. I can do this. Then use the scarf framework to diagnose what’s going on and to inform you about how to respond. I hope this helps people tell me that it does. And in the next episode in two weeks, I’m gonna share with you some dos and don’ts, specific suggestions for how to deal with these difficult people. After you diagnose the issue, you certainly need to understand whether it’s your customer or your client, or maybe it’s your direct report. Or maybe it’s a peer, like with Leanne and Mike, or maybe it’s your boss. That’s always a fun one when your boss is a difficult person. I have some fantastic suggestions and strategies to share with you about how to deal with these folks, and I’m also gonna share with you a sequence of steps to follow if things escalate. Unfortunately, sometimes things get worse, and you end up having to go to HR or escalate it in some way, and I’m gonna share with you exactly what you need to do and when, step by step. So that’s the next episode. If you’re not already subscribed to this talk about Talk podcast, please hit subscribe now in whatever podcast platform you’re on, and then you’re gonna automatically receive part two of dealing with difficult people and more communication skills coaching from me. That’s it. Thanks for listening and talk soon.   The post Dealing with Difficult People at Work – Part 1 (ep.205) appeared first on Talk About Talk.
• New Year, New You… REALLY?!? Personal Brand Training (ep.204) 19.01.2026 58นาที

  New year, new you. What does that actually mean? Dr. Andrea Wojnicki makes it clear: it’s not about reinventing yourself or becoming someone you’re not. It’s about rediscovering your strengths, elevating your best self, and defining a professional identity that helps you achieve your career goals in 2026 and beyond. In this episode, Andrea shares a powerful personal brand training session that walks you through three critical questions designed to reveal what your authentic professional brand should be. You’ll explore what you’re most proud of from 2025, your biggest career accomplishment from the last decade, and what you truly want to accomplish moving forward. Andrea also shares three definitions of personal branding that will inspire and guide you, plus her proven Present-Past-Future self-introduction framework that helps you present yourself with confidence and impact in any professional setting. The episode also includes a live Q&A where Andrea tackles tough questions about ageism in the workplace, how to introduce yourself in sales calls, navigating social media versus in-person communication, and more. If you’re ready to present your true best self and not the version your boss thinks you should be, this episode is for you. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE Archetypes Quiz – http://talkabouttalk.com/archetypesquiz Ageism Episode – https://www.talkabouttalk.com/ageism-160/ TRANSCRIPTION Andrea Wojnicki: Happy New Year, and welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. Let’s do this.  Let’s Talk About Talk. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please just call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach here at Talk About Talk, where I coach ambitious professionals to communicate with confidence and credibility so they can achieve their career goals in 2026 and beyond. New Year, New You: Clarifying Your Professional Identity Earlier this year, I hosted a live training event called New Year, New You personal brand training. In this session, we covered all sorts of definitions and activities and exercises, and three questions that I ask myself and that I encourage you to ask yourself to help you develop your ideal, positive personal brand in 2026 and beyond. Are you ready? Here we go. I wanna start by saying truly how much I was thinking about this as I was getting ready, how much I think about respect that you’ve taken time out of. I know no matter what you do, you have a busy schedule, you have lots to do, and this time of year. It’s like it gets all bottled up and then boom, first week of January, you’re back at it and you’re taking an hour of your time to spend with me. I feel honored. I feel privileged about that, but I also, I already have a lot of respect for you, whether I know you or not, for taking this time to invest in yourself. So I promise you, in the next hour, I’m gonna share with you some things where my intent is to provide you with some real impact in how to help you develop your. Ideal personal brand, or what we’re calling in this context here are professional identity. Okay? What This Session Will (and Won’t) Do for You So it’s a new year and a new you and I was, I was also thinking about this a lot. New Year, new you. I do not mean reinventing you and turning you into something that you are not already. I’m talking maybe about rediscovering something about you that you haven’t been thinking about in the way that you maybe should. I am talking about. Really elevating your best self, okay? So that you are as happy. And as successful as you can possibly be. So we’re not talking about your needs, the things that your boss is telling you that you need to work on. We’re actually thinking about the opposite. We’re thinking about your strengths and your skills and your expertise and how to share those things with the world, and actually for how you can think about those things more yourself. I am not gonna waste your time. We’ve got a lot to get through here. I am very ambitious, I’m gonna say that in terms of what we’re gonna generally and in this hour in terms of what we’re gonna get through. So I’m not gonna waste my time. I’ve been to some of these events where people spend 15 minutes introducing themselves. I am not gonna do that. I’m gonna say, many of you already know me on LinkedIn. If you don’t, you can check me out on LinkedIn. Um, I’m Andrea Wa there, but probably what might be more helpful is if you go to the talkabouttalk.com website, and you can learn all about me there, including the podcast. I have a biweekly podcast on Apple, on Spotify. We have a YouTube channel now where all the episodes are there and all of the. Past live trainings that we’ve done like this one are there. So you can, there’s lots of resources. And one resource in particular that I wanna draw your attention to is my biweekly email newsletter. So every two weeks, if you sign up, you get an email from me, and it’s an update with me. And my objective with this email is basically to provide you with free communication skills coaching. So I coach ambitious executives, I’m guessing like yourself, who have establish some level of technical expertise, and you’re looking to step it up in terms of your career and maybe in terms of your life. And you’ve identified communication skills rightly as one of the things that can really help you get there. So in that newsletter, which I hope you’ll sign up for, you can get free coaching from me there and keep updated on everything that’s going on in the talk about talk world. Okay. What I want you to do now in the next 55 minutes, we’re gonna think of this as a, not just a training session, but a real-time coaching session where you’re gonna make some traction and make some progress in terms of not just thinking about, but actually writing down what your ideal brand is. So if you have a piece of paper and a pen or a notebook or something like that, please get those out. And if you don’t. You can write it in your phone. Some people like to write notes in their phone. Write it on another device. You can also rewatch this video later on YouTube, and it’ll also be posted on LinkedIn. Okay? So get your paper and pen ready. I’m gonna take you through four things. For those of you who know me. You’ll be like, what? It’s not three. I know. I told you I was really ambitious. It’s a new year. Four things. The first thing I’m gonna do is I’m gonna ask you three. Really important questions, and I want you to write your answers down, so that’s why you need a piece of paper and a pen. Okay, so first thing is three questions. The second thing is going to be three definitions of personal branding, but that’s also gonna help you inspire and define your brand. Okay? Then I’m going to share with you a three-point self-introduction framework, and I know from the folks in the audience for a few of you, this is gonna be a refresher. You’ve seen it before, but we’re gonna be looking at it through a new lens. Then I’m gonna share with you three reasons why this work is so important and how you can do it. And then we’re gonna get into a q and a. So in the Q & A, for those of you who know me, you know that I love an open q and a where I have no idea what you’re gonna ask me. So I always make time for that at the end, if you have questions, you can save them for when we do the live q and a, or you can put them in the chat. So I’m gonna be looking for people who are raising their hands first, and then we’ll go into the chat for, um.  Three Questions That Define Your Personal Brand Okay, so let’s get into this. I don’t have slides for this part. I will when we get into the definitions and everything, but we’re gonna start now by me asking you, and I’ve asked myself these questions, by the way, three really important questions that can inform what your personal brand should be, and it might surprise you what these questions are. It might not. But regardless, I think these are questions that we don’t ask ourselves often enough, and if you really double down on the answers for these, you’ll be doing yourself a big favor. Okay? The first question is this. What are you most proud of that you accomplished? That’s a very general term, right? Accomplished. 25. So before you answer that, I just wanna say we in this session, in this one-hour session, are focusing on your professional identity. And many of us, I hope, have personal accomplishments that they’re really proud of. So, for our context here, let’s keep it in the context of your career. It could be a skill that you learned. It could be a leadership skill. It could like, it could be a soft skill or a hard skill, right? And the soft skills often are related to ourselves personally as well. Like you could say, I really worked on my listening, or I really worked on not using filler words. And this is professional and personal, but I want, if you said like, I’m really proud of, you know, having my oldest child graduate and go off to college, that’s an amazing accomplishment, and you should definitely be celebrating that. But that’s not what we’re talking about here. We’re talking about personal or professional accomplishments.  So again, it could be a skill, it could be an award that you won, something that you got a big check mark on. It could be something that maybe at the beginning of 2025, you and your boss decided that it was something you needed to work on, and then at the end of the year, you were told that you made great strides. It could be that. I want you to write that down. That’s the first question. Okay. You can, of course, continue to refine your answer to these questions, but that’s number one. The second question is, I want you to just pull the lens way back. What is the thing that you are most proud of in terms of your career in the last 10 years? So I was gonna say five years, and then I thought, I know from myself and from some other people that I coach that things may have happened five or six or seven. It doesn’t really matter. It’s like recent history in the last 10 years. What are you really proud of in your career? Again, it could be you learned a hard skill. It could be you launched a new product. It could be that you made a career change. It could be that you earned a degree or other credentials. By the way, you’re allowed to answer with more than one thing, but you need to have at least one thing that you’re really proud of from the last 10 years. Okay? Now, at this point, when I’m coaching folks one-on-one, I often get this comment from people they say, I find this really hard to answer, Andrea, because I spend so much of my time thinking about what I need to work on. My weaknesses or my developmental areas. So that’s what’s really special about this work. On personal branding, we purposely focus on the positive, unique, and relevant things that you wanna reinforce. And of course, you need to work on your development areas, but we rarely double down on our strengths and our accomplishments. So that’s where I wanted to kick this off. So you’ve got your, hopefully. Answer number to question number two, which is what is the accomplishment or the skill that you are most proud of from the last 10 years? Okay. Now you’re probably wondering what the next question is. Is it gonna be like the last 25 years? I know some of you probably aren’t even 25 years old. No, that’s not where we’re headed. The third question is something that I know personally and from coaching hundreds and hundreds of folks can be very, very illuminating. And the question is this, what compliments have you received that mean the most to you? So for some of you, you might be like, oh, I know what it is right away. For most of you, you probably don’t. So here’s the thing, when we. Receive compliments from people. We light up, we feel happy, we feel validated. We feel appreciated. We feel like we are successful at something, right? So we might be told that we are smart, or we might be told that we’re attractive, or we might be told that we are a kind person. If you had to choose out of those, which one, it’s not that they’re not all fantastic, of course they are, but which one is the most meaningful? Which one lights you up? I can tell you the compliment that I’ve received a couple times in the last, I don’t know, six, eight months from my clients that really lights me up is they’ll say to me, Andrea, you have incredible listening powers when we’re in these coaching sessions. You really listen to what I’m saying, and then you’re able to interpret what I’m saying and then articulate it in a way that I’ve never thought of it before, but it’s true to me. And that just shows that you’re really listening. And when my clients tell me that I light up because I’m, I’m like, well, I wasn’t actually listening on purpose. I was just really trying to understand them so I could help them articulate their brand. And when they say that I’ve done that, I light up. So what compliment have you received? That lights you up. And this is really important for your brand because these compliments and your responses to them are telling you something, perhaps about where you should be focusing more. So the fact that this lights me up really to me, reinforces that I’m doing the right thing with my career and coaching people. Because if the compliment is that I’m. Making an impact on my clients, and that’s what lights me up, then that’s exactly what I should be doing. So again, I’m sharing my first-person story here, hopefully to inspire you to think about when have you felt that way when someone made a specific compliment to you that really lit you up? If you’re not sure about what this compliment is, the other thing that you could do is I have an archetypes quiz on my website. It’s talkabouttalk.com/. Archetypes quiz, and if you take the quiz, you’ll get an email back that tells you what your archetype is. So when I take this quiz, it tells me that my archetype is magician and someone who leads people through transformation, and I’m like, that maps perfectly to the compliment that lights me up. It’s not a coincidence. Right? So the answer to this question, what lights you up in terms of a compliment and what your archetype is? Probably, there’s probably a very direct link there. There should be a very direct link there. So I guess my challenge to you is to answer that question first. To the best of your ability. And then if you wanna, the quiz is free, by the way. When you take the quiz, you can see whether it valid and what I hear from people, they, you know, guess what their archetype might be. Or they, they think about what the compliments are and when they get the answer back from the quiz, the results of the quiz, if they align with what they. Thought before it’s great. It’s very validating, and sometimes they don’t. It’s a little bit different, but then they see the archetype, and they’re like, but actually that’s really true. And it this helps you feel seen and this your archetype can help inform what is unique about your brand that you should be reinforcing. So the archetypes all talk about a PO one of 12 positive personas that, um. Is like a universal pattern that people will understand and that you can use to reinforce your strengths. Okay, so we’ve got, hopefully, you’ve written down three answers to three questions that I asked. What are you most proud of from 2025 in terms of your career? What are you most proud of from the last 10 years, and what compliment lights you up the most? I kind of feel like I may have opened a big can of worms here because you’re like, okay, this, this feels good. It’s all positive, Andrea, but what am I gonna do with it? I’m gonna take you through some definitions and an exercise, uh, uh, self-introduction framework, and some benefits of personal branding now, and I’m gonna be referencing back to these questions and your answers to these questions to help you sort of make sense of how you can leverage them. So, by the way, your answers to these questions should be evolving all the time. I, I encourage you to ask yourself these questions the next time someone compliments yourself. I hope you have a new lens on that compliment, and you think compliments are nice. How does this one rank in all of the compliments that I’ve received? Is it a just nice to hear or is it like telling me something? My response to it? Is it telling me something that I should be paying attention to in terms of my brand, how I’m being perceived by other,s and how, what I wanna be thinking about myself. Okay. I wish I could read what all of you wrote down so badly. All right. Here we are. New year. New. Yes. By the way, I’m wearing the same blouse I was, I was like it, looking at what to wear today, and I’m like, I should just wear the same thing that I’m wearing on the, um, on the poster for this event.  From Self-Awareness to Strategy: Being Yourself on Purpose Okay, so the first question is, what is a personal brand? I’m gonna start by telling you what it is not. So my guess is that, well, I hope that you are not in the camp of folks out there, and there are plenty of these folks who think that personal branding is about turning you into social media influencer or monetizing your brand, Andrea, encouraging you to quit your job. So because you’re, you’re feeling empowered to go out there and become this big, you know, influencer, celebrity that is not, that is not what we were talking about here. Okay? We are talking about identifying, as I said before. The positive, unique, and relevant traits about you that you wanna reinforce. You can think of your personal brand in the same way that marketers, brand marketers, think about product brands, right? Like you’re selling a box of Tide, you’re selling, uh, I don’t know, an AI software platform or whatever you’re selling. You think about what are the unique characteristics of this product that I want people to know. It’s exactly the same. Almost exactly the same with people. With people. It evolves, though, right? Because the world changes. We grow, our family changes, our careers change. But you can think of it as your reputation or your identity. Over the years I’ve used, as I’ve been coaching folks, I’ve been using different definitions of personal branding and, uh, the one that I think is the most well known is this one from Jeff Bezos. If you haven’t heard it, you, I’m, this is probably a reminder for most of you, any article that I have read in the last, at least five years on personal branding, almost always within the first three paragraphs this comes up, Jeff Bezos says, your brand is what people say about you when you’re not in the room. So I want you to add, this is a real coaching session here, okay? I want you to ask yourself. The important stakeholders in your career. It could be your boss and your boss’s boss who look after succession planning. It could be your clients, your customers, or your consumers. It could be your colleagues at work. It probably is your colleagues at work, no matter what. It could be your people that you’re negotiating with. It could be investors. If you are an entrepreneur, these important stakeholders, what are they? Saying and actually thinking about you when you’re not in the room. So imagine you just met with them and you leave. What’s their impression of you? Or if I just ask them right now, or if you could read their mind and your name comes to mind, what are they thinking and saying about you? That’s your brand. Now, here’s where a lot of people say, oh Andrea, it is not good. That is not like it. I mean, it’s fine, but it’s not what I want people to think about me. And I say, that’s great. That’s why we’re doing this work. But if you’re gonna be. You know, if you’re really gonna make an impact here with your brand, you gotta start with what people are already thinking and saying about you, and also thinking about what you wanna reinforce. So now I want you to go back to the three questions also and ask yourself, do these people know about these good things that I’ve accomplished in the last year, in the last 10 years? Is there a way without bragging or being awkward about it, that they, that this can come up in conversation. Should it be on my LinkedIn profile? Are they aware of these compliments that other people are giving me that are lighting me up? Did are they aware of these things? These are important questions to ask yourself. Okay, so this is, this is. Very helpful. This is actually an exercise that I do take folks through when I’m coaching them in masterclasses and one-on-one coaching. It’s very helpful. Um, and I brought this up when. Two years ago, I interviewed the marketing guru, Seth Godin, who’s written many, many, many, many books. Uh, depending on how you count them, it’s either 20 something or 80 something. Um, and he also ran the podcasting fellowship that I did, uh, six and a half years ago. So I asked him if I could interview him. He said, sure. And it was. Fascinating conversation. Let me tell you, this guy thinks like no one, like I knew when I logged on, this is not gonna be a normal interview. And I also said to myself, I’ve listened to many of the other folks that have interviewed him on podcasts. I’m gonna ask him questions that my audience wants to know. So we started talking about personal branding, of course, and he said, oh, people think my brand is my orange glasses that I wear, but that’s not my brand, that’s just my logo. And I was like. Oh goodness. We’re not gonna go down that rabbit hole. That’s just, that’s not helpful. And I said, Seth, how do you think about your brand? And this is what he said, this is gold. He said, my brand is what people think I’m gonna do next. Let that sink in for a minute. Think about the folks that I just listed, right? The boss’s boss, your colleagues, your clients, your customers, your negotiating partner, your investors, these important stakeholders who have impact on your career. What do they think you’re going to do next? Okay? At least as importantly, what do you want to do next? So this is the next thing I want you to write down. What do you want to accomplish in your career? In 2026 and maybe beyond, do these people think it’s likely? So let me tell you one of the things that I am most proud of in 2025, it took a lot of work, and I am really proud of it, but it’s just opening a whole other, a whole other line of projects that I’m working on now is I signed a book deal, right? So, if my brand is what people think I’m going to do next, the important question for me to ask myself is, do people think I am going to write a book that is worth reading? Right? And if they do, that’s fantastic. If they don’t, what can I do to make sure that I’m evolving my reputation or my brand so that that is the case? So when Seth Godin shared this definition with me, I was like. Oh my gosh. And we talked about it for a while, and then when I finished the interview, I pulled out a piece of paper sitting where I am right now. I drew a line down the middle, and I was like, what are my goals? Do people think it’s possible? And I gave myself a score, and then I was like, how can I make people believe that this is gonna happen? Because when they believe it’s gonna happen, it’s gonna be even more successful, and it’s also more likely that I’m gonna do it. So I want you to do the same thing. What do you want to accomplish? And do other people think you are gonna do that, or that it’s conceivable or perceivable that you’re gonna do that.  And if they are great and if they’re not aligned, then you have some work to do. But this is work that is, I was gonna say, it’s not, it’s not easy work, of course. It’s not easy work, but it’s really, really important work. Okay. Alright. So we have these two definitions of personal branding from these two. Very smart, very successful, very well-meaning people, and these definitions are getting a lot of traction. The thing that bothers me about these definitions is that there’s no agency associated with them. So what do I mean by that? By agency, I mean we have no influence or control. It’s just what are people saying and thinking about us, and what do they think we’re gonna do next? So what am I gonna do about it? So here’s my definition now that I use it’s personal branding is about being yourself on purpose. And there’s really two parts of this definition that I want you to really understand here. It’s being yourself, and by yourself, I mean your true self. You’re not acting like somebody else. Your whole self. So yes, we’re talking about your professional identity, but you are also maybe a husband or a wife, or a parent, a sister or a brother, or a friend, or an athlete or a musician. Like these other things that are not directly related to your professional identity, they are related to your professional identity, right? So it is your whole self. It is your best self. So I’m asking these questions at the beginning of this session in terms of the things that you’re most proud of. I want you to start to focus more on your strengths, your accomplishments, and your skills. How can you leverage those things? Make sure you’re in opportunities where you can demonstrate those things. Make sure you’re reinforcing them. One of the interviewees that I had in my podcast last year said it so well. She said, people are afraid to share their accomplishments and their skills. And she said, I think of it more as like a service that you’re doing for the people that you’re working for. They hired you to do a job. You need to tell them what you do best. Think about it. If you know what your skills are and you share that with the people that you’re working with, then you’re gonna be doing your best work, and they’re gonna be getting the most out of you. So personal branding is about being yourself, your whole self, your true self, and your best self. You got that whole self. True self and best self. It’s not that you’re ignoring your weaknesses and areas of opportunity, but that’s not what you’re emphasizing when you’re introducing yourself and you’re interacting at work. Right. And then the second part of this definition is on purpose, and I have it in capitals because that is what we’re literally, maybe not literally physically. This is what we’re physically doing right now. We are unapologetically, strategically. Taking the time and making the effort to purposefully present ourselves in a true and effective way to others and to ourselves so that we can be our happiest and most successful self. That sounds good, right? I have this on purpose thing. I put it in caps. I emphasize it as much as I can. It’s like I hope I’m turning a light bulb on for you that most of us go through our careers doing kind of what we wanna do and a lot of what other people expect us to do, and introducing ourselves without really thinking about it. What we’re saying about ourselves. If you put a little bit of effort into identifying what your strengths are. What you love to do, what you’re good at, what your accomplishments are, and how to share that with the world and reinforce it even with yourself. This work, you know, I’m a communication coach, and my background is marketing and it’s all, you know, it’s all about like amplifying your message. Recently, I’ve been thinking more and more and more about like this whole idea of self-identity and your professional identity and your personal brand. It affects you as much as it affects everyone else. I mean, not just because of the impact and what happens, but actually how you think about yourself. So this is my definition, and personal branding is about being yourself on purpose, and what, so what this definition adds here, like I said, is agency. You can make a difference in over to Jeff Bezos, what people are saying and thinking about you. You can make a difference in as Seth Godin says what people think you’re going to do next. You can do that. And it starts by taking an inventory of the things that you love to do, that you’re good at, the compliments that mean the most to you, the accomplishments that you’re most proud of. Okay, so you see how this circles back to the three questions that I asked you at the beginning. If you wanna take a screenshot of this page, by the way, you’re absolutely more than welcome to. And again, it’ll be posted on, on YouTube if you wanna reference it there. And we’ll also be posting it on LinkedIn. My challenge here, if you want to think about these three definitions, is to. Like I said, do the mental exercise of answering the three of them for yourself, and also maybe thinking about where can you get the most traction. If you look at each of the three of them, some people say, like Andrea, I agree with your definition, but Jeff Bezos, that’s the one that really matters to me, ’cause I’m trying to convince my boss that I deserve promotion. So I want, when I’m not in the room, I want ’em to tell everyone that I need to get promoted. I’m like, bingo. That’s the definition you need to be focusing on, then. Right? So think about. Maybe which of the three is most relevant for you today, and maybe in 2026.  The Three-Point Self-Introduction Framework (Present, Past, Future) Okay. Now we are gonna move on to the three-point self-introduction framework. So some of you have seen this before, and if you have, I’m going to be. Asking you to think about it just a little bit differently in terms of integrating the three questions that I asked you at the very beginning. For the rest of you, I just wanna share a couple things. So, your self introduction, both personally and professionally, by the way, is the most direct way that you have to reinforce your brand. Think about it. Your self-introduction is your words from you about you. You’re sharing with the world, and they’reyour  words. It’s not just, oh, Andrea’s, you know, got books behind her. It’s like this implicit thing. No, no, no. These are words about you that you’re sharing. So about four years ago I did an episode on how to introduce yourself. And it very quickly became the top Talk About Talk podcast episode of all. It actually remains number one of 203 episodes as of, uh, this week. And. I wrote up, I wrote it up, and I sent it into Harvard Business Review in 2022, and in 2023, it was one of the three most downloaded articles of the year on the hbr.org website. So this topic gets a lot of traction, and the self-introduction framework works. That’s why this article was so popular. I’m gonna share it with you now. And by the way, it is so easy that you do not even need to take notes. It’s just three things you start with present.  So this is the way many people start their self-introduction, by the way, hi, my name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. I’m an executive communication coach at Talk About Talk, where I have a podcast, and I coach ambitious executives to be successful in their careers by focusing on their personal brands and their communication skills. So you see what I did there? It’s my name, my title, my company, my What I Do. If you’ve done the work on your personal branding, you can also. Talk about, um, maybe what your unique leadership style is, what differentiates you compared to other people. Um, but at least it is your name and what you do. Okay? So I, I told you I was gonna be linking this back to the three questions in terms of your present. If there’s something that you have accomplished, and maybe you have a new title or you have a new skill, you can talk about this in the present tense now, right? My name is whatever. I’m a chief technology officer at a BC tech company, and what differentiates me compared to other technology experts or leaders is my ability to do this. And I’ve recently, uh, developed a skill with AI, whatever it is, right? So you’re talking about yourself in the present tense. This is really important. You wanna anchor yourself introduction in who you are and what you do very often people will say. We’ll be going around the table. Why don’t you tell me about yourself? And people will start with the past, and they’ll share this kind of default, boring chronology. I’m exaggerating here, but I graduated in 2002 with a commerce degree, and then I went and worked at this company and then I, and it’s like what? Start with who you are and what you do. This is the most important thing, by the way, if you’re unemployed. I coach plenty of people that are in job transition and they say, how do I do that if I’m in job transition? You introduce yourself and you share what your expertise is, right? My name is Jane Smith. I am a finance and marketing expert, blah, blah, blah, right? You just, you get right into your expertise and you tell them your industry expertise or your functional expertise. Okay? So that’s step one. Present tense. Step two is past tense. So, here in a professional context is where you establish credibility. You, depending on the context, you might share one or two or three things. I say less is more. We all, including myself, get tempted to share too much information. You don’t wanna talk more than the person before you. You wanna speak slightly less in your self-introduction than the person who introduced themselves before you. But here’s where you can say, guess what? The answer to the, the questions that I asked you, at least question one and two, you could say I’m something I’m really proud of in the last year that I accomplished is blah, blah, blah. By the way. Telling people that you’re really proud of something, as long as you don’t do it all the time, like, I’m proud of this, I’m proud of that. I’m proud of this. I’m proud. Of course, that’s not what I’m talking about, but saying, you know what? I’m actually really proud of the fact, like I told you at the beginning, I’m really proud when my clients tell me that I am an exceptional listener. I hope you don’t take that as me being arrogant. It’s like one thing. So arrogant. People are defensive. They can do no wrong. They’re good at everything, right? Telling someone one thing that you’re proud of does not make you arrogant. In fact, you should practice. Telling people what you’re proud of. So here is where you could say, in the past 10 years, one of the most significant things in my career is that I accomplished a transition from blah, blah, blah to blah, blah, blah. Or I earned this degree. So this is where you talk about the thing from question number two, the thing that you’re proud of for the last 10 years, and then you can say, in the last year. In 2025, the accomplishment that I’m most proud of is this. And you’re telling people what your value is, what your expertise is, what your skills are, and remember what I said before. This is actually providing a service to others so that they can get value out of you. Okay, so you could talk about your past credentials, accomplishments, things that you, you know, new products that you launched, big projects that you led, or projects that you participated in. Maybe it’s your business results from 2025 or from the last five years, whatever it is. So this second step is establishing credibility. That’s how I want you to think about it. Okay? Now, many people, in fact, I’m gonna say. Most people, a significant majority of people, end their self-introduction here. They’re like, my name is blah, blah, blah. This is what I do. Previously I worked at this other company, la, la, la. And then it kind of fades off. Then the next person goes, are you done? Okay, my turn, blah, blah. Right? That’s how it goes. Sound familiar? The research shows that if you can share something. Positive and enthusiastic that things will go your way. So I first learned this from a negotiation expert who I interviewed. She was doing her PhD research on negotiations emotions, and she found this insight about the emotion of enthusiasm. And when you share enthusiasm, the negotiation is more likely to go your way. So I went into Google Scholar, and I started looking at all the research on enthusiasm. It turns out in the teaching context, people learn more when you’re enthusiastic. In the job application process, the job applicant who is more enthusiastic, is more likely to get the job. In a sales context, the salesperson who is more enthusiastic is more likely to close a sale, and on and on and on. So here’s the magic in your self-introduction. Instead of ending it with this awkward like, and that’s me. Add one simple sentence about something that you’re looking forward to and say it with enthusiasm. It could be generally about like in 2026. I’m really excited, you know, to be in this new role, or I’m really excited to work with you all. Ideally, when you’re introducing yourself, this three-point self-introduction framework is not a script. It’s purposely just three words, present, past, and future, and you fill in the blanks and you always customize it and personalize it for the person that you’re introducing yourself to. For example, in step three, this future step, you will turn to the person, look them in the eye and say, I’m really looking forward to getting to know you better, or, I’m really looking forward to working with you, or I’m really looking forward to like, as a client, serving your needs, whatever on this account. So, turn it back to them with a smile on your face and enthusiasm. And I have so many stories from podcast listeners and people who have read this article who told me they get caught off guard and asked to introduce themselves. So one of my clients, his name’s Mike, he is a very very successful wealth advisor, and I was coaching him a couple years ago, and he told me that on some Saturday, he was, uh, at the golf course, and one of his very wealthy clients ran into him and said, Hey Mike, nice to see you. Happy Saturday. Oh, by the way, this is my buddy that I was telling you about and he’s looking for a wealth advisor. And Mike was like, oh, come on. It’s my Saturday. I don’t wanna have to sell myself. And then he thought, self-introduction framework. He said, Hey, yeah, my name’s Mike, and I’ve been a wealth advisor. I used to live in Toronto. I moved my family over, blah, blah, blah. And then he goes, he shifted to past, and he said, I’ve been doing this for X number of years. He added a few things for credential and then future. He said, I don’t know if you, if you live around here, but maybe next week we can connect. And the guy said, sure. And five days later, he had a new client, and I was like, oh. So Mike, do I get the commission check? Anyway, he said, Andrea, you saved me. Because he goes, my mind was in a fog. I was trying to drink my coffee. It was Saturday morning, and I just thought, present past future. And he goes, it actually resulted in me signing on a client. So your self-introduction is not always gonna be this impactful, but I’m telling you sometimes it will be when you walk into a job interview and they say, tell us about yourself. Are you kidding? The way you answer that question determines whether you make it to the next round of interviews. Let’s be serious here, right? This framework works for that. So present, past, future. Now, I want you to think about your answers to the three questions, the compliments and the things that light you up, and how the compliments that light you up and your accomplishments from 20, 25 and 10 years before. How can you work these in without, you don’t have to say I’m particularly proud of, although I, I would suggest maybe you could once, right? How do you include positive, unique, and relevant things about yourself in each of these three steps? Here’s the word that I was telling someone yesterday. I’m, I used to say, introduce yourself with confidence. Now I’m saying introduce yourself with purpose. This is an opportunity for you to really reinforce your professional identity in a positive way that’s gonna impact how other people think about you. Okay, now we’re gonna move into. Three benefits of building your brand. And again, I’m gonna map this back to you, and you can continue to take notes here. But these are three, yes, I’m a huge fan. In case you didn’t get the memo of the Power of three, but perhaps not, coincidentally, there are three things that I see and hear all the time from people about the benefits of doing this work, about being yourself, your true self, your whole self, and your best self on purpose. Okay? The first thing is when you do this work. You have the ability to control your narrative. Have you ever noticed that sometimes people will talk about you, and you’re like, ah, that’s not quite right. Or something comes outta your mouth, and you’re like, ah, you know, that’s true, but it’s not the best thing that I would’ve said about myself. When you’ve done this work, you are controlling the words that people use to describe you and how you even think about yourself. You’re not leaving it to chance, and I, I say this to my clients all the time. You can be a very strong B plus, maybe even an A if you don’t do this work, but if you really wanna knock it outta the park, you’re gonna take the time to really define yourself, your true self, your best self, and your whole self purposefully. And then you’re going to use those words to control the narrative. The best example that I have of this is well. Best. I said that so emphatically, didn’t I? I think it’s one of the best stories that I have to illustrate this. I was doing live coaching session very similar to this, and a brave woman raised her hand, and she said, I have a question for you, Andrea. As you can tell by my accent, I’m an Indian immigrant, and I live in the States. I’m a lawye,r and I want my brand to be lawyer, not immigrant. How do I control the narrative around that? And so. I said to her, tell me about yourself, like where do you work? What kind of law? And every, and as she, as she was speaking, I was listening to her accent, and then I, I said to her, so your accent is definitely decipherable. You didn’t have to tell me that you were from India. I could have guessed, but your English is clear. I’m not working hard to understand you. And you know, the research shows that when you have an accent, people might click in that you have an accent, but then as long as you don’t make them work to understand you, it’s fine. It’s not a negative thing, so I wouldn’t worry about it. In fact, you’re thinking of it as a liability. Let’s turn your accent into an asset. And she said, okay, how do I do that? I said, you control the narrative around your accent. You could literally say to people, yes, literally, literally say to people, as you can tell by my accent, I am from India. I have global experience. I have lived and worked in India, and there was one other country, and now the United States. I passed the bar exam in New York, and I’m now a corporate lawyer. I work as a corporate lawyer in Manhattan. And I said, boom, like your accent is actually evidence. And so you are controlling a narrative. So here’s where if you have something about yourself that you aren’t. Maybe that you’re trying to hide like her, she’s trying to hide her accent. You can create a narrative around that thing. Don’t let other people create the narrative for you. I said, you don’t need to correct people if they call you an immigrant, but you can tell them what it means, right? When they say, oh, are you an immigrant? You could say, I’ve lived and worked in three different countries, and I’m a corporate lawyer now in Manhattan, where I leverage that global experience. Boom, drop the mic. Right? You control the narrative. Okay? The second benefit is that working on your brand provides you with direction and focus. So, as I said before, arrogant people think they’re fantastic at everything. I asked you a really, really hard question about what compliments mean the most to you. That answer, I hope, provides you with direction and focus. It doesn’t mean you never work on anything that’s not related to that compliment, goodness knows, but it means I hope that you have the opportunity to raise your hand enthusiastically and volunteer for any kind of project or work that relates to that compliment where you can really flourish.  Okay. So you can see how building your brand provides you with direction and focus. I hear this from my clients all the time. They’re like, I dunno if I should be doing this or that, or this or that. And then we create this list of themes about them that they know are positive, unique, and relevant to them, and then it provides them with direction and focus. The third and last benefit is the one that. I think is the most significant. I wanna really be clear about this, and the reason I keep bringing this up is I get this question often, like frequently all the time. I’m afraid that it’s one thing to write down these things that I’m proud of and these compliments that light me up, but to actually talk about them, and I say, you are not saying that you are good at everything. You are taking the time on purpose. Remember to identify your unique strengths and skills, and there’s nothing arrogant about that. So, identifying the unique things about you that differentiate you compared to everybody else who does what you do. Differentiates you compared to your coworkers, your competitors, maybe even compared to your family and friends. This is gonna boost your confidence. And one of the reasons I love what I do so much is that I am focused on the positive, right? I help people think about this strangely. They’re at work, and they’re thinking about their weaknesses and what they need to work on and their skill deficiencies, and I’m like, hang on a second. What about your strengths? Think about the people you know who are. The most genuinely confident, not arrogant, genuinely confident, and happy and successful in their careers. They are the ones that have doubled down on their unique strengths, right? So that could be you. These are the three benefits of building your brand. It helps you. You can see how they’re kind of intertwined. They’re integrated, but they’re importantly distinct. You’re controlling your narrative. You’re thinking about the words, and you’re reinforcing them with purpose. I’m not saying you’re great at everything. You’re providing yourself with direction and focus, and you’re elevating your confidence because you’ve taken the time to think about these positive accomplishments. The two first two questions and compliments that you get from people, and this is sure to boost your confidence. So that is the main material I guess, that I wanted to cover with this. We’ve covered a lot already. We’ve got three big questions if you wanna send them to me, by the way, on LinkedIn, I, I would love to see what some of them are, three definitions of personal branding to get you thinking about them more deeply. The three point self introduction. Remember, present, past, future, it’s not chronological, and the three benefits of building your brand. So if I were you. I would be thinking, thank you. This is helpful. I feel empowered, but now what?  Wrap-Up & Live Q&A So onto my favorite part of the session, the q and a. First thing before I look in the chat, what brave soul here has a question for me. I would love to hear a question. I know you’ve got questions.  Theo: All right, I’ll go.  AW:  Oh, Theo. Amazing.  Theo: I’m afraid you’ll cold-call someone. So I am curious how you think differently about the future piece and the present. Well, actually, the whole introduction piece, when you’re talking about people who are either currently employed, transitioning, or coming back to employment after a long time out of the workforce. Yeah. I’m curious, like for people who are not 25 on this call.  W: Thank you Theo. Amazing. This is a common question that I get and I think it’s really important. I think if you are gainfully employed, it’s kind of obvious, right? Like present tense is who I am and what I do. Past tense is, you know, the things. Remember, you’re customizing it for the people in the room, right? So you’re thinking, if you’re introducing yourself to a new project team, like what do they need to know about me that I’ve done that’s gonna help me establish credibility, right? And then future is, I’m looking forward to working with you. If you’re in a job interview, I think the best way to answer this might be to just make some scenarios up, right? If you’re in a job interview. You go in and they very often purposely ask you, tell me about yourself. And you don’t know how long to talk, and you don’t even know what the structure is. Yes, you do. It’s present, past,and  future. Hi, my name is Andrea. I am a, or my name is Theo. I am a blah, blah, blah, industry, blah, blah, blah. Function expert. I am. You’re still present tense, right? I am excited to learn about this position, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you say, I’m gonna tell you three things about my experience and my skills. There are many things, many things that I could share with you, but, um, in terms of, you know, sharing things about myself, there are three things. Again, I told you I’m the, I’m a big fan of the power of three, the benefit of saying. At that point, I’m gonna share three things, is they’re not gonna be like, how long is she gonna keep talking? And then you say, the first thing is I have extensive expertise in blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? And then you say, the second thing is, one of the things that I’m most proud of in my career is this. And the third thing that I wanna say is maybe something that’s directly related to the company that you’re interviewing with. Right. And then you say, so those are just three things, and I’m happy to elaborate on those three things. And on any other questions that you have, and then they’re gonna think that you’re just gonna end there, and you say, but I just wanna conclude by saying I’m really excited. You see what I did there? That’s enthusiasm. I’m really excited to learn from you more about this company and more about this role because, based on what I know, I think I’m gonna be a great fit. Boom. That’s. Okay. And if you’re, say in a networking meeting, you’re either thinking about leaving your company or you’ve already lef,t and you’re doing, you know, the classic networking call, uh, or you’re at a networking event, and it’s like, let’s go around and introduce ourselves. That’s not when you’re gonna say three big thing,s and you’re gonna take the mic for that long. But think about what do you wanna be remembered for with the people that are here, right? So you could say, my name is Jane Smith, and I don’t know sales and. Retail sales expert and in technology, blah, blah, whatever it is, right? So you tell them what, tell them so that when they hear about a job in that area, they’re gonna think of you, right? And then you could say, I’m currently seeking a new job in this area. I have 25 years of experience in things that are gonna really help me succeed. And I’m really excited to get to know all of you better. Right? So you, you, you shorten it. You make sure you’re really clear and I do a lot of work with an executive recruiter, and she said after these networking events, you literally remember if they’re lucky, one thing about each person that you met. So make sure the stuff that comes outta your mouth about you is what you want them to remember. Does that help, Theo? I’m guessing you have more specific questions.  Theo: No, that’s amazing.  AW: Okay, good.  Theo: Like to get push on that a little. Thanks.  AW: Yeah, you’re welcome. My pleasure. So Blake has a question in a sales call, would it be better to skip the future remarks and just speak on present and past Blake? Excellent question. No, the future can be one. In fact, most of the time it’s one sentence. So if you’re, for example, you have a call with aa prospective client, and as I do right with my coaching clients, and I’ll say, why don’t you introduce yourself and then I’ll introduce myself. I would never skip the future thing. I’m like, I would love to help you. I even say to people in this call, I’m not gonna hold back. I’m gonna, I’m gonna share with you whatever coaching advice that I have for you, but I’m really looking forward to getting to know you better. Right? So just say one thing. I’m really glad to meet you, or I’m really looking forward to this, or I’m excited about this, or I’m enthusiastic about this. It could be about the person. Ideally. Actually, it is about the person, but sometimes if, if that doesn’t feel quite right, you can make it. The comment about yourself in general, you could say, and I’m really excited about 2026. I feel like, you know, we’ve turned a chapter or whatever, or despite what’s going on in the world, I am really excited about what we’re doing here at work. I hear people saying that a lot right now. Okay. Anyone that wants to raise their hand in this group, I’m gonna answer it first, but otherwise I’m, I’m staying in the chat. Sydney Ann asked to piggyback Blake’s question. In public speaking, we’re taught to establish credibility. Yes. Recency bias and primacy bias. However, in social media, it’s preferred to begin with the hook solving the audience problem. Oh, okay. Sydnee, that’s fantastic. I actually learned this from Sarah Blakely. I did the Sarah Blakely. You know the Spanx billionaire entrepreneur. She has a masterclass where she talks about problem-solving. How you did it, like what the details are. And then step four of the sales pitch is the ask. Right? But you start with the what’s their problem? Same thing on social media. I tell my team this too, when we’re working on my social media posts, it’s not, guess what, Andrea did today? No. It’s actually talking to them about what matters to them. I think for the self-introduction framework, it’s really about. Finding opportunities to use the framework, but you’re not shifting the attention to yourself all the time. In other words, I’m not saying that all social media posts should be present, past future, I’m not saying that at all. And if you’re doing the sales pitch, I hope you first have the opportunity to ask the other person, introduce themselves, and you’re introducing yourself. And then I, I totally agree with you, Sydnee. You start with the other person. You do not want to be. One of these myopic, selfish people who’s always talking about themselves. By the way, did you notice I did not really introduce myself here in this session? I just said, if you want more information about me, here’s where you can go that’s on purpose, because I want this to be about you. So Sydnee, there’s an example, right? You don’t wanna be the person that talks longer than everybody else, and you don’t wanna be the person that everybody thinks is like self-absorbed. So you speak not as long as everybody else. You make sure that the other, like this morning I had a coaching call with someone that I, I’ve been coaching for about six months and he’s like, how was your holiday? And I was like, you go first. Right? Like it’s not all about you. I think Sydnee, the fact that you’re asking that question tells me that you know that. So that’s fantastic. Okay, I’m gonna take one more question. Are there any live questions? Otherwise, I’m gonna go to Jennifer’s question. How do you recommend navigating age bias in high-stakes stakeholder meetings, particularly when they appear younger than you are or actually are early career, while still signaling authority and competence in rooms where age is often equated with credibility? So I get, um. I think it was about a year and a half ago, because I remember it was in the summer. Yeah, it was about a year and a half ago. I was getting this question a lot. I think there was an article that came out in the New York Times about ageism. Ageism is real. So I am 55. I’m gonna tell you that right now I’m 55, and I would say I started feeling ageism probably at around 50. I think it depends on your industry. In some, I talk to 40-year-olds who tell me that they feel like a grandparent, like the wise old grandparent in the office. So it really depends on what industry you’re in, but ageism is real. It is a bias. It apparently is an illegal bias, but it is a bias that definitely exists. So how do you present yourself as having the expertise and maybe years, maybe decades of expertise without having the negative impact of ageism and this sounds really simple, but if you can present yourself in a way where you have energy, then your age. Probably doesn’t matter. It actually, it’s not just energy, right? It’s energy and like current insights. This is an extreme example. If your email is AOL or even Yahoo, I’m gonna say it, as opposed to, you know, a more modern email provider, if you are constantly talking about your grandkids or your listing, and I don’t mean necessarily on your CV or on your LinkedIn, but you’re like. Articulating when I, you know, when I graduated from high school in 1985, and people, you’re, you’re prompting people to do the math, so don’t prompt people to do the math. Do present yourself with energy and in like youthful energy, right? People that are, you see kids running around. I sometimes if I’m walking down the sidewalk and I see a family and it’s like the two adults are like this, and the kids are like running around, right? So have that, you have youthful energy, and you’re current. And then my big thing is like I just told you, I’m 55. Unless you have reason to believe that your actual age is really gonna hurt you, you don’t need to necessarily tell them your age, but you can reference that I clearly, the elephant in the room here is that I’m older than everybody else, but you know what? I have a lot of experience that I’m, I would, and wisdom that I would, the word wisdom will help a lot that I’m happy to share. I think as I’m saying that, it really does, as I said, the beginning, depend on the context of your industry and the audience of people that you’re talking to. I hope that helps. It’s a great question, Jennifer. I do have a podcast episode on ageism that I will, when I post this on LinkedIn, I’ll put a, a link to that episode. So I wanna say thank you. I wanna start actually, by saying Happy New Year again. We can say that at least for this week, right? Happy New Year. Again, thank you so much for being here for this session. I loved your questions, and I hope you found the information that I shared with you on personal branding. To be helpful. It’s a new year. It’s a new you. That doesn’t mean you’re reinventing yourself again. It does mean that you are presenting your true best self. And I want you to really think about your answers, especially to the first three questions that I asked you at the beginning. Thank you so much. Bye. The post New Year, New You… REALLY?!? Personal Brand Training (ep.204) appeared first on Talk About Talk.
• Personal Branding for WOMEN Leaders (ep.203) 05.01.2026 50นาที

  Your work doesn’t speak for itself. If you’re a woman leader who works hard but feels invisible when promotions are discussed, this episode is for you. Dr. Andrea Wojnicki delivers a powerful training on personal branding specifically designed for women. You will learn the three ways that branding is different for women, why “my work speaks for itself” is holding you back, and exactly what to do about it. This isn’t about becoming a social media influencer. This is about taking strategic control of your professional identity so the right people know your value, your expertise, and what you bring to the table. Andrea shares the PUR framework (Positive, Unique, Relevant), real stories from women who transformed their careers by focusing on what makes them unique, and practical communication strategies you can use immediately. If you’re ready to stop being overlooked and start being recognized for the leader you are, this episode will show you how. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE Glass Walls: Six Barriers Holding Women Back at Work by Dr. Amy Diehl: https://amzn.to/4jeuQlI Competent Jerks and Lovable Fools research paper: https://hbr.org/2005/06/competent-jerks-lovable-fools-and-the-formation-of-social-networks Seth Godin Episode: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/making-a-ruckus-with-seth-godin-ep-171/id1447267503?i=1000669800604 TRANSCRIPTION Andrea Wojnicki: Being yourself on purpose. I have this in capital letters because that’s what we’re doing here right now. We are unapologetically in a disciplined and strategic way, thinking about what we’re communicating about ourselves, and then communicating it in this strategic way. Well, hello there. I am really excited about this episode. Personal Branding for Women Leaders: Being Yourself on Purpose You’re about to hear or watch a recording if you’re on YouTube of a one-hour live training that I did recently called Personal Branding for Women Leaders. If you’re a long-time listener to the Talk About Talk podcast, you’ll notice that this one is just a little bit different. If this is your first time listening to the Talk About Talk podcast, then I have to say this is an outstanding place to start, and I should probably start by introducing myself. Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please just call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach here at Talk About Talk where I coach ambitious professionals and executives like you to communicate with confidence and clarity so you can achieve your career goals. If you check out the TalkAboutTalk.com website, you’ll find information there about all the services we provide, including private coaching, masterclasses, corporate workshops, and on-demand courses. There are also lots of free resources that you can download there, and my free communication skills-focused email newsletter, you can check it all out at TalkAboutTalk.com. Let’s get into the episode. As I said, this one is a little bit different from what we usually do. First of all, this episode is a recording of a live training session that I led a while ago. If you can watch this episode on YouTube, then you’ll be able to not only hear me, but you’ll also see my slides, and I’m sure you’ll get a lot out of this, regardless, even if you’re just listening. The second way that this episode is different is that the topic is targeted to females. To women leaders. You’re about to learn three ways to define your personal brand, three ways. It is different for women, and three ways that you can start to build your own personal brand immediately. You’ll also hear the Q&A at the end, and this is my favorite part of these live sessions. You’re gonna hear some very insightful questions from a few audience members, including a question from an entrepreneur who I had no idea was in the audience and whose products I’ve used for decades, which was actually really cool. Alright. Here we go. If you are here, I’m gonna guess that you are either curious or maybe you’re beyond curious and you’re ready to start establishing your strong personal brand, or your professional identity, as I call it. And you probably also know, as I certainly do, that it is a little bit different for women. I’m gonna say that it is a little bit different for women. I’m gonna say it’s, we have some unique challenges. Some of these challenges are imposed on us from society and culture, and some of them are things that we do to ourselves. So we’re gonna talk about those things explicitly. But the fact that you’re here, I think we are a fantastic tribe. I’m gonna say that if you’re here, probably like me, you’re not giving up. You’re not. I’m gonna just let it happen. You’re gonna make it happen. So kudos to you. We are gonna cover lots in the next hour. If you follow me on LinkedIn, or if you listen to the podcast, or you subscribe to the newsletter, you’re gonna know one thing about me, which is I’m really big on the power of three. I’m really big on the power three. So I’m gonna take you through three ways to think about your brand, and then I’m gonna take you through three ways that branding is different for women. Then I’m gonna take you through my top three suggestions. So I was thinking, given this audience of women only, what are my top three suggestions? Given these definitions and given the ways that branding is different for women, my three suggestions for what you can do starting right now to start developing your ideal personal brand or professional identity.  So we’re gonna cover those three things, and then I’m gonna open it up to the Q&A. And as I said, you can put the questions in the chat. I’ve got Priscilla here who’s helping us out and to moderate me some of the questions. Or you can also raise your virtual hand at the end. I don’t wanna spend too much time introducing myself, but I just wanna say briefly, for those of you who I do know, it’s wonderful to see you again. And for those of you who I haven’t met, thank you and welcome.  What Personal Branding Really Means (and What It’s Not) So I wanna start by sharing with you what branding is not in my mind. One thing that I know from reading and thinking and podcasting and interviewing people and on and on about a focused on personal branding. One thing that I know for sure that’s true is that many people have different ideas about what we’re talking about here. So I have had clients who want me to help them establish their personal brand, and we set up a coaching program, and they go back to their boss, and they’re like, here’s the list of topics that Andrea’s gonna take me through that we’re gonna cover in the coaching sessions. And one of the 10 topics is personal branding. And sometimes this has happened a few times. Their manager will say, yes, yes, yes, yes. No, no personal branding. So why is that? They think that I am going to try to turn them into a social media influencer, so they quit their job or monetize their brand. And I’m here to say that is not what I’m talking about. Although if you really wanted to, you could. But I think about branding differently. I think of it as your identity or your reputation. This is basically taking the strategic principles that we know as brand managers. As I was at Kraft, a brand manager has a creative brief, a strategic brief that they share with their agency to come up with their packaging and their advertising and their promotions, and their positioning. And all of the elements of that brief are. How we can think about ourselves in terms of your values, in terms of what makes you unique relative to your competitors, if you wanna use the same vocabulary, right? All of these things we can think about strategically in terms of ourselves.  Three Powerful Ways to Define Your Personal Brand I’m gonna share with you a couple of definitions. The first one is a definition that, if you’ve done any reading on personal branding, you’ve probably come across this before. It’s Jeff Bezos, the founder and former CEO of Amazon. He famously said, your brand is what people say about you when you’re not in the room. And this quote has become synonymous with personal branding work, just about any article, as I said that you’ve ever read in the first couple of paragraphs. This is what comes up, and this is the definition that I actually use with my clients for a couple of years. So I would ask them. What are people thinking and saying about you when you’re not in the room? And now I’m actually asking you this in real time, right here and right now. What are the important stakeholders in your career? So it could be your boss and your boss’s boss are meeting to talk about succession planning, and your name comes up in conversation. What are they thinking and saying about you? That’s your brand. Now, most people will freak out. They’ll be like, oh, oh, I think they think this. I think I want to be seen as this, and there’s a bit of a disconnect. That’s okay. That’s why we’re here. We’ve got some work to do. But this is a really valuable mental exercise. What are people thinking and saying about you when you’re not in the room? And the important stakeholders, again, it could be your boss, it could be clients. If you’re an entrepreneur, it could be clients, it could be your staff. It could be your team that you’re working with. It could be if you’re an entrepreneur, maybe it’s investors. What are the important stakeholders thinking and saying about you when you’re not there? So this was my definition for. Years. This is the exercise that I would take my coaching clients through. And a couple years ago, or about a year and a half ago, I had the great fortune of interviewing Seth Godin for the podcast. And Seth, I did his podcasting fellowship, his inaugural podcasting fellowship, way back about six or seven years ago. So I emailed him, asked if I could interview him. We had this fantastic conversation. I definitely went off script. I wasn’t just talking to him about his books. I really wanted to hear his take on personal branding, and I asked him, I said, Seth. How do you think about your brand? And we got into this conversation about his quirky, like he wears these plastic orange glasses, actually similar to mine, these plastic glasses. And he said, some people say, that’s my brand, but that’s not my brand. That’s my logo. And I was like, we don’t need to go down that rabbit hole. I think that is part of your brand, how you show up, right? Renee, how you show up is part of your brand, but really, Seth, how do you think about your brand? And then he delivered this gold. He said, Your brand is what people think you’re gonna do next. So he said, Andrea, my brand. What people think I’m going to do next. I was like, this is next level. This is next level. So we have Jeff Bezos. Your brand is what people think about you when you think and say about you when you’re not in the room. You can also think of it as what people think you’re gonna do next. I actually think this is a little bit more powerful, right? It’s more impactful. So I ask you now. I encourage you now to do exactly what I did when I got off this interview with Seth Godin. I took out a sheet of paper sitting where I am right now. I drew a line down the middle of it, and I said, what do people think I’m gonna do next? Like, what are the big career, I guess, guideposts, the impressive things, the accomplishments that I’m gonna have over the next five or 10 years? What do they think? And then, actually, what are my goals? So I encourage you to do the same thing in one column. Write down the things that you want to accomplish. For me, I wanna write a book. I wanna be on the TED stage, I wanna be a bestseller. I’ve got lofty goals. What do people think is possible? And then the magic happens when you merge these two lists, right? This is the magic of personal branding, but it doesn’t come without effort. And when I think about these two ways that these two smart men talk about branding, I give them credit. These are helpful exercises, but to me, they lack one thing. They lack agency. What do I mean by that? Your brand is what people think you’re gonna do next. It’s like, well, so what can I do about it? Right? Or your brand is what people are thinking and saying about you when you’re not there. Well, okay, so how do I influence what my boss is saying about me in that room where they’re talking about succession planning? So I created a different definition that, as I said, includes agency, and it’s this personal branding is about being yourself on purpose.  So there are two elements here that are really important for you to consider being yourself. You. Your true self, your authentic self. Yes, I said the A word, your authentic self. Now, that doesn’t mean you’re sharing everything with everyone. As Seth Golden would say, Andrea, I don’t care if your cat is puking over there or that you’re barely got here on time. You show up as a professional. So it’s being yourself, your true self, your authentic self, and your best self. There are a million ways to tell the same story. So tell your story in a way that serves you, show up as your true self and your best self. And then, so that’s part of it, being yourself on purpose. I have this in capital letters because that’s what we’re doing here right now. We are unapologetically in a disciplined and strategic way, thinking about. What we’re communicating about ourselves and then communicating it in this strategic way. So the big difference between how most coaches will coach you on creating a strong brand versus what I do is you can think of it as two steps. Step one is creating or articulating your brand. Who am I? What do I stand for? What are my unique strengths? Expertise. I see people writing notes. I’m so happy when people write notes. What are my unique strengths, my expertise, my skills, my passions? So that’s step one.  And then step two is communicating it. Communicating it on LinkedIn, communicating it in how you introduce yourself, communicating it in your corporate bio, communicating it. What’s behind you? I have my books, I have my degree, I have my plants. Right? Like, what do you have all? Communicating it in how you dress, communicating it in what drink, what drink you bring into the meeting, right? If you, if someone brings in, I don’t know, a coffee, a beer, a water, a cola, you’re signaling something about yourself. So, being yourself on purpose. First, thinking about who you are articulating and identifying, and focusing on your unique brand. And step two is the communication step. The big difference again is that I spend much more time guaranteed than most people do on step one. This is the thing. Garbage in, garbage out, quality in, quality out. If you spend the time creating a list of your unique strengths. Really internalizing them and thinking about how you’re gonna narrate them and how you’re gonna reinforce them. The communication step is so much easier. It’s so much easier. Okay, so we’ve got these three definitions, and I’ve spoken with. You know many people I’ve run corporate workshops where I put the slide up, and I ask people to raise their hand and tell me which definition resonates for them. I wouldn’t be sharing each of these three definitions if I didn’t think they were valuable. I think these are all very effective ways, and I encourage you to think of all three of them. Ask yourself, what are people thinking and saying about you when you’re not in the room? Maybe you’re like, oh, they’re thinking and saying kind of what I want. Fine. Move on to the next definition. Or if it’s not what you want, then start thinking about correcting that. Right? And then secondly, what do they think you’re gonna do next? If these are not aligned with your goals, then you need to start communicating things about yourself so that the list of aspirations versus what people think, as I said, merges. And then lastly, this definition that I share with my enthusiastic thumbs up. Being yourself, your true, authentic, whole self. I’m gonna add one other thing there. We are always, this drives me crazy when people say, well, I have my work identity and then I have my personal identity, and I’m really two different people. I’m like. That must be really, really hard. That must actually be exhausting. Wouldn’t it be easier if you were always the same person? Like, truly, if you’re always the same person, but you filter, this is like, I call it the F word of personal branding filter. You filter what parts of your identity you are gonna share with the world, depending on who you’re talking to and the context. So I didn’t share with you that I’m a painter. I didn’t share with you that I’m obsessed with the color turquoise. I didn’t share with you that I have three children that are absolutely ginormous. They’re all very tall. Okay? Those are parts of my identity. In other contexts, I might share those things, right? If I’m going to an art gallery with a friend, I’m, I would, of course, they would know that I paint and I would talk about that, but, so you are always your whole true self, but you filter what you share. This comes up, by the way, a lot. For women in the context of being a mother. I hear this. Uh, I just got the shivers because I was remembering back in, during COVID, I was doing some workshops for newly promoted partners at one of the consulting firms around the world. And this wonderful, young, incredibly intelligent, high-achieving, ambitious woman in China said to me, I just got promoted. I was in the room at the table with the partners, and I said something about one of my kids. Everybody went silent and they all looked at me and she said, I was like, and then later on I noticed someone else said something about their kids and she said it was like, and I said, listen, when you’re senior enough in your organization and you are gonna be, look at how young you are and what you’ve achieved, you can create a culture where everyone can talk about that stuff. In the meantime, you filter what you talk about to accomplish your goals. Given the context, given the people that you’re with in the moment, you filter what parts of your identity, doesn’t mean you’re not a great mom just because you’re not talking about your kids in that context. In fact, you may be a better mom because you’re doing better at work, right? So we filter. You are always the same person, and you’re doing so strategically in a disciplined way and unapologetically, and I know that that unapologetic part can be difficult, particularly for women.  Why Personal Branding Is Different for Women So at this point, I’m gonna move on now to three ways that branding is different for women. And I’m gonna say that I could have put so much here. So I decided to narrow it down to, given the power of three, I’m gonna narrow it down to three. And the first one is related to society, you all. And I have very little, if any, control over the second and third one; we can control. Okay. And I hope that that inspires you. So we do have some control. That’s I guess, one of the main takeaways from today. The first one, of course, is societal stereotypes and the culture that we live in and the research. I’m familiar with the research. I have some of the books up here. The academic research shows that women are expected to be. Warm, communal, maternal service-oriented, right? Versus leaders are expected to be authoritarian, and sometimes people would say like the opposite end of the spectrum of all of those traits. And so, there are things that happen therefore, that are outside of your control because you are a woman. People will stereotype you, and you probably embody some of these stereotypes. So what happens? Women get interrupted so much research. Men interrupt women, women interrupt women. Women do not interrupt men, like it’s crazy. It’s so imbalanced. We get interrupted, and when we do say something. Sometimes our comments are attributed to others. Has this ever happened to you? You say something in a meeting, and somebody says, um, so I have a thought, blah, blah, blah. They repeat what you said in different words, and then people go, great idea. You’re like, what? Just I see people nodding. What just happened? So our, so we get interrupted. Our ideas are attributed to others. They carry less weight. Maybe, I don’t know. Anyone else have any ideas? Some dude says something, and it’s like gold, right? One other thing that happens is the type of feedback. So I learned this really directly when I was a professor at the University of Toronto, a female faculty member warned me the first time I ever got, you know, that at the end of the class, they give all the students an evaluation sheet. Used to be pen and paper. It’s probably online now, but anyway, and scale of one to seven, how effective is this? And then they go into the comments, she said. So the scale of one to seven is, is probably fair. Although there is a main effect of gender. Men get rated higher. By the way, pregnant women. Get rated lower than non-pregnant women. And I found, I actually hid my pregnancy one time when I was teaching ’cause I wanted to see what would happen, and then the next whatever. So the feedbac,k though, the words in the evaluation form are very different for women, and this may happen in your formal evaluations that you get with your employer, right? They talk to you about your style. They talk to you about you should be more confident, you should improve stakeholder analysis, you should, whatever. It’s very sort of vague style personality feedback versus for men, it’s. Great job achieving this thing, and you didn’t, you missed this one, but we understand why, because you had these things, and it’s like, what? So they get feedback that’s more tangible, and we get feedback. That’s more, and maybe this goes back to all of the stereotypes. So the point here is we are walking a tightrope based on society and culture, where we’re trying to balance, if it’s possible, how we project our strengths. And our authority and our expertise, while also being communal and maternal, if you wanna use that word. Or at least, let’s call it having strong people skills. Right. And it’s like the more you do one, it seems like there’s a paper that one of my colleagues at the University of Toronto wrote when she was at Harvard Business School called Competent Jerks and Lovable Fools and Who Gets Promoted. And it’s basically the idea is at work, you’re one or the other. You’re like a really nice woman who’s a fool, or you’re a competent jerk. And by the way, the competent jerks do better. Right? And so this is really hard for women. I co-authored a paper with Dr. Amy Diehl. She and one other co-author wrote a book called The Sixth Glass Walls. It’s, you know, in addition to the glass ceiling. The glass cliff. There are all these walls that we can find ourselves walking into that limit our career progression. And she and I coauthored a paper for Fast Company, where we talked. The paper was called Stop Telling Women to Lead Like a Man. So in fact, being aggressive or being authoritative or really mastering self-emotion or avoiding weak language. Like these are all things that women are told that men seem to do naturally. And our point was maybe somewhere in between what women are naturally doing and what men are doing, maybe somewhere in between is actually the magic place. So again, this is a tightrope. It’s really hard. I’m gonna say this. This is almost an impossible task to overcome societal stereotypes. But, we also do things that hurt us, like suffering from imposter syndrome. So I wanna share something with you about imposter syndrome. So first a definition and then a little bit of background. So, imposter syndrome is this feeling that most of us have, that we will be found out and people will realize that we’ve been promoted beyond our ability and we don’t belong in the room. We don’t belong on stage, or we don’t belong behind the microphone. Right? So this term imposter syndrome was actually coined in 1978 by two female social psychologists in the US, and they were doing research on successful women. Let me say that again. The research was on successful women, and they interviewed them in depth, and they were trying to figure out what do these women all have in common that differentiates them from less successful women, and maybe that differentiates them from men. One of the themes that came out really strongly that ended up being kind of the pinnacle of the careers of these two social psychologists was, they called it imposter phenomenon. And it was this feeling, like I just described, of being found out, I don’t deserve to be here. I’m like, I’m the one lucky person who got in somehow, and maybe I’m gonna get kicked out. They identified this theme, and then they compared it to women who were less successful, and they realized actually it doesn’t differentiate them. They feel that way, too. And then they also researched men. Guess what? Men actually have imposter syndrome as well, and there’s been tons of research. Basically, everyone experiences imposter syndrome. If you don’t, then you’re probably veering on the side of being arrogant. Imposter syndrome is really common. You can work to overcome it. So I’m gonna say this, it’s not your fault that you are experiencing imposter syndrome, and I, I have to say, the research shows that men experience it too. But men don’t come to me saying, can you help me overcome imposter syndrome? They’re like, can you help me communicate with precision or can you help me with my formal presentation skills? Women are like, I know I have imposter syndrome, and I know you can help me. Here’s the thing. You can work on your confidence. Confidence can be learned. Just ask Tina Fey. She talks about impostor syndrome all the time. And look at her. She’s a rockstar. Just ask Natalie Portman, the Oscar-winning actress. She went back to Harvard to deliver her the graduation speech, and she was quoted in the newspaper saying like, I look around at these smart kids. I don’t belong here. I don’t know. Excuse me. First of all, you graduated from the school. Secondly, you wouldn’t want an Oscar. You’re very inspiring and capable, and ambitious. You definitely belong here. We all experience imposter syndrome. The issue with it is that it’ll prevent you from speaking up and stepping up. You need to speak up, and you need to step up if you’re gonna be successful, and you can control this; you can work on your confidence. And this relates to the speaking up point, relates to the third way that I think branding is different for women, and it’s, I have this in quote, my work speaks for itself. I hear this. Over and over and over again from my clients, including very successful clients. I’m coaching right now a woman, she’s an assistant general counsel at a massive global technology firm. She’s like second in line in the law department, in the legal department, and she’s been there for I think 12 years. She hired me to help her establish her brand, her strong professional identity, and to elevate her confidence and her credibility, her executive presence, you could say, because she was given the feedback that she’s great at doing the work, but people don’t know who she is and what she does. There was one of these succession planning meetings. She told me this when we first met, where her boss went in to advocate for her for a promotion. Like three of the people in the room said, oh, I didn’t even know she was in legal. Who is that again? And she came back to her, and she said, you have a branding problem. Like you need to be establishing who you are and what your value is and what you do so early. It’s not our fault that this happens. By the way, and this is what I said to her early in your career, so actually before your career started, when you were at school, your teacher told you what to do. You did the work, you got an a. You applied to the universities. You did your best. You got into a great school. She got her law degree. She started at the law firm, right? She’s ling. She’s doing what the partners are telling her to do. Patting her on the head. Good girl. You’re doing what you can. Here’s the thing. When you hit mid-career and senior career, there’s no one looking after your over your shoulders to give you the check marks. It’s your job to make sure that you speak up for your work. Your work does not speak for itself. And so I know a lot of you, a lot of men and women, but especially women, it seems like we are apprehensive about talking about the value of our contribution and our expertise and our work. And I say this arrogant, people think they’re great at everything. They think they know everything, and they’ll take credit for anything. Perfectly confident. People who have a strong brand are very specific about the value that they provide in the organization, what their expertise is, what their skills are, and they’re not afraid of talking about it. In fact, you can even say the words, I have to say, I’m particularly proud of how I led this team to achieve whatever the goal was, right? You can call it out. You can say, I’m not into bragging. If you wanna be perfectly explicit, I’m not into bragging, but I am really proud of what the team under my leadership accomplished this year. Look at, here’s where our goals the, this is the final metrics. We knocked it outta the park. I heard a guy, a tech dude say once, if you don’t talk about your work, you might as well not do it. So this is a little bit different from imposter syndrome, right? Imposter syndrome is feeling like you don’t belong there, and not speaking up, and not raising your hand to volunteer to do the work. This third one is you’re actually doing the work, but you’re not talking about it. And this goes back to, remember I said the process is step one, articulating your strengths, your skills, your expertise. And step two is the talking. So being clear and focused about what your brand is, what your value is, what your accomplishments are, and then it makes the talking part, the communicating part so much easier. Okay. So we have these three ways. That branding is different for women, and so I don’t want you to be like, okay, this is depressing. Cause we have society stereotypes against us. We have this imposter syndrome, which is fair game given how we were raised. And I literally said this to the assistant general counsel that I was coaching. I’m not gonna say her real name, say it’s Susan. I said, good girl, Susan, you’ve been doing your hard work for 12 years. And she goes, that’s pretty much what my boss said. He’s like, you’re great, but you need. To be clear on what your value is, and not just sit down. And so I purposely chose this image of this woman burning the midnight oil. You will not once you hit middle management. I see this again and again. The hard work is not gonna help you knock it outta the park if you wanna knock it outta the park. You need to learn to talk about your values and your identity.  Practical Next Steps: Three Ways to Build Your Brand Starting Now All right, so I’ve got three ways that these are the top three things that come to mind that I would do if I were you given. The societal dynamics given our typical female beliefs and behaviors, here are three things that I would do. The first one, when people get this, makes a massive, massive difference. So the criteria for the traits and the skills end up in your personal brand, the list of, I’m gonna say up to 15 things that you share about yourself on a regular basis. Implicitly and explicitly the criteria is that these things are positive, unique, and relevant. Positive, PUR, positive, unique, and relevant. But if I had to choose just one criteria, it’s this one unique. If you can double down on your unique skills, you will be happier and more successful than you ever would’ve been. So if there’s one thing that I wanna leave you with, it is this. And I can tell you, I’m thinking of all of the senior executives that I’ve coached before. This is the one that makes the biggest difference, and it seems to make a big difference, especially for women. There was a vice president of human resources that I was working with. She was on the job market. She. Happily. Well, she was employed, not happily, but she was employed. She said, I’m ready to be a Chief Human Resources Officer, A-C-H-R-O. So she said, I’ve let my network know, and I’ve been going to several interviews. I’ve done maybe six interviews, and she said, Andrea, I’m not getting called back. For any second round interviews, and I’m not sure what I’m doing wrong. It must be communication skills, so I need to hire you to help me. And I said, okay. So I said, let’s first focus on developing your brand, and then we’ll talk about your job interview answering and communication skills. So in one of our first sessions, I said to her, What is your unique strength that’s gonna make you a great CHRO? And she said something like, Well, I think they’re looking for someone who obviously has the technical human resources skills and expertise, but also who’s a real team person. A team leader with strong EQ and people skills. And I was like, did she not hear my question? So I asked her again, and she kind of answered it the same way. And then I said to her, you’re not answering the question. What makes you unique? And she kind of like had a little bit of a meltdown she goes. Call it an epiphany. She said, Oh my God, I have been answering the questions in these interviews in a way where it’s pretty clear that I’m guessing what they want to hear as opposed to truly presenting who I am. And I said, okay, so let me ask you again, what makes you unique? And she goes, actually, it’s my people skills. People love working for me. My boss told me I can make my people do just about anything. And I was like. That is gold. That is gold. That’s the thing that you know people say about you, that you know is true. It’s positive, unique, and relevant. So the rest is history. She went to her next interview. Her confidence was heightened. She felt focused on her unique brand proposition, and she got the job as a C-H-R-O. So this is gold. Focus on what makes you unique. Stop trying to guess. Of course, you have to meet minimum standards for all the criteria that they’re looking for promotion for investment, for getting a new job, but focus on what makes you unique. You’ll be happier, and you’ll be more successful. It’s a big speak for your work and control your narrative. So this really addresses one of the points that I made on the previous slide, where your work doesn’t speak for yourself. You must speak for your work. Don’t assume that people know what you did. Don’t hesitate to use the word lead leader led leadership. It’s shocking to me how many leaders and aspiring leaders are not controlling the narrative. They’ll say to me privately. I led this initiative where, you know, we doubled our revenue, or we doubled our profitability, whatever it is. And then I looked at their LinkedIn profile, and I’m like, first of all, I don’t see that accomplishment there. But more importantly, where’s the word leader? Oh, this is a big one. Control the narrative. Instead of saying, so tell me what you do. And you say, Oh, my name is Jane Smith. I work at x, Y, Z company in this department. I’ve been here for 10 years. So what? You could say in the last 10 years I worked from being like a mid-level analyst to joining the C-suite, where I’ve worked in three different functions, and I now have a fantastic overview, and last year we blah, blah, blah. Like talk about the so what, control your narrative, every word, every phrase, every sentence that comes out of your mouth. And maybe if you’ve done the work in listing what your personal brand themes are, you can challenge yourself to mention some of those things. Particularly when you’re introducing yourself. So this comes up if you’re sharing your career narrative. If you’re sharing your career narrative, why don’t you tell me a bit about your career history? Most people think that means, okay, I graduated from my Bachelor of Commerce degree in 1997, and then I did this, and I worked here for so many years, and then I did my MBA. No, no, no. Unless there’s a reason why you wanna share it chronologically. Why don’t you tell the person the highlights? Like, I’ve lived in three countries, I’m a global leader. I’ve lived and worked in three countries. My superpower is this, and I did this at this company and this company and this company, right? So, share your career journey with purpose. That’s one thing. The other thing you can do here is introduce yourself with purpose. If you’ve followed my work, Priscilla will put the links in the show notes. If you followed my work, I’m really big on introducing yourself using the three-point self-introduction, present, past, future, in all three of those steps. Use intentionality, narrate the benefit to you of what you’re sharing. Present tense. I’m a blah, blah, blah. My expertise and skill is this, right? So start it with that past tense. Previously, I tell them what you did. Tell them what your accomplishments. Again, depending on the context and the person, you are establishing credibility. You’re choosing what you share. This is, remember I said the definition is? Be yourself on purpose. This is the on purpose part. You’re being very conscious, and then the future is something enthusiastic about what’s to come, what your goals are, so whether you’re introducing yourself, whether you’re sharing your career journey, whether you’re meeting someone at a networking event, whether you’re. Updating your LinkedIn profile, speak for your work, and control your narrative. It’s about self-awareness. It’s about being conscious and not just like trying to get the mic, like it’s my turn to introduce myself, blah, blah, blah. Next, no. Next time someone says, Let’s go around the table and introduce yourself. I really hope that you will think this is the best opportunity that I have to reinforce my strong personal brand. Look forward to your self-introduction. All right. The third thing that I encourage you to do to develop a strong personal brand is to network and build relationships. And so this is really taking the step two. Remember, I said step one is articulating. Step two is communicating. If you have lots of people in your network. Yes, sure. This does include LinkedIn followers, but it also includes just getting out there, like you see this lovely woman who’s smiling at a networking event, right? It’s getting in front of people and telling them what you do, and I decided to capitalize the word relationships here. Very purposely. I know that you’re probably, if you’re like most people, thinking networking, ugh, I hate it. I hate networking. That’s because you’re probably thinking of networking as being selfish and self-serving. I encourage you to think of networking as establishing meaningful relationships, and how do you do that? You do that by providing value to others. Think about. Sharing information with people, sharing your personal brand, your expertise, your skills with other people in a way that will help them think about connecting your network with other people in your network. Right? You are adding value, and you are strengthening relationships. That’s all networking is. Networking is not going to event showing up, passing out your business cards and shaking paws. No. It’s actually establishing relationships. And by the way, when you go to that networking event. Circle back to every single person that you met. Otherwise, you might as well not have met them. It’s the same way that if you do the work and you don’t talk about it, you might as well not have done it. If you go to a networking event and you meet someone and you never follow up, you might as well have not met them. You might as well have not gone to the event. Right?  So these are three ways that you can develop a strong brand and when I look at this list, I’m like, I feel very passionately that these three things will get you a lot of traction in developing your brand. Focusing on member positive, unique, and relevant, especially unique things. Speaking up for your work, being very purposeful about that, and choosing the words.  Use the word lead. Please use the word lead, and if you have global experience. Stop trying to hide. I talk with clients about this all the time. Stop trying to hide your accent. Your accent is evidence of your global experience. So introduce yourself as someone who has international or global experience and let your accent be evidence of that. And of course, networking and building relationships. But there’s a lot to do in each of these three things, and I know a lot of people feel overwhelmed. And before I open it up for questions, I just wanna say, if you wanna learn more about me and what I do, you can go to talk about talk.com. I think we’re all connected on LinkedIn, and I encourage you to check out the podcast. I’m on all of the podcast platforms, Apple, Spotify, and on and on and on. And now we’re also on. YouTube, so you can watch m,e and I’ve done some pretty cool interviews where you can actually see what the guest looks like and see me interview them. It’s actually a lot of fun, so I hope you’ll check that out as well and subscribe on YouTube. Wrap-Up & Live Q&A with the Audience So now I’m gonna go open it up for questions and the women that are here right now get first dibs. I have a question. Oh, yay Fatima. Yay.  Fatima Lusito: So I wanna ask a question about, I used to work in the corporate space, but one of the things that I would say U is unique or that I love about is bringing fun into the work that I do, and fulfillment is really, really important. So, is there any suggestions or thoughts about how you do that in a way, because the corporate side is, it could be a different feel, how you incorporate that, and that, you know, if you have a personality that you wanna bring fun into what you’re doing and how you’re supporting your clients. AW: I think Fatima one of the most effective ways establishing a strong personal brand is taking something that someone might think is a negative and turning it into a positive. So this is really being yourself on purpose. You are the one who wants to make work fun. Hang on a second. Work is hard, right? We’re supposed to be suffering and not having fun, and I feel like you can create a narrative around that where you actually call it out. I mean, there’s even cliches around this, right? Like, we spend so much time at our at work, we might as well enjoy what it is. And you could say that, well, like, that’s the cliche. But I actually really, truly believe that we will not only just enjoy ourselves more, but will actually be more productive if we enjoy coming into work. So I am the boss, I am the manager. I am the leader. Use, use the L word. I am the leader who is relentlessly focused on achieving our business objectives. And making sure that we all have fun when we’re here. And then you tell them how you do that. Well, because we have a mandatory offsite and you better smile and laugh when you’re there, right? You could make jokes about actually evaluating people on whether they’re having fun and whether they’re contributing to a fun culture. And by the way, I’m also gonna say this is like a fantastic platform for the most senior leader, right?  Like, I’m seeing a CEO who has this? Brand of relentlessly focused on meeting OB business objectives and creating a culture that, I encourage you to use the word culture because I’m not sure what level you are, but if you’re leading any kind of team, you could even say my team culture is the most fun of any culture, any team in the organization. And then as you ascend to the most senior leadership, you could say, this is the company that people wanna work at. Because yes, we are accomplishing our business objectives, but we’re also having fun. And you have a big smile on your face, and it’s unique, it’s positive, unique, and relevant. Okay. Who else has a question? Mabel’s labels. Oh gosh. We have so many Mabel’s Labels in our house.  Mabel’s Labels Inc.: Oh, do you? I’m so glad. Sorry. It’s my work-from-home day, so I’m wearing my second city. When you mentioned Toronto, I’m like, what? I’m, yeah. Yeah. Um, so I just wanted to maybe clarify, I’m not sure if I kind of missed it. It was back near the beginning when you were talking about filters and, I mean, maybe, I guess ’cause I think for my brand, my personal brand, you know, I really try to use to elevate my business brand Mabel’s labels, right? So my customer’s moms, so like one of my personal branding goals, which is. Easy is just to be relatable, ’cause I have six kids and it’s a shit show and whatever and you know, so do all my customers. Like, it’s just, I, my personal brand is like also trying to get through the day without smelling like baby vomit kind of thing. Right. My kids are big now, but you know what I’m saying. So I mean, I bring in, like obviously, I guess I just think maybe you can talk a little bit more about knowing who’s in the room, who your customer is, who you’re speaking to, because for me, I don’t wanna filter out that messy crap. That’s what they like. AWi: Right? So I think that your story here, by the way, this is an incredible company. I know you’re very successful. So my kids are. 17, 18 and 22, we have in our front hall, like a little plastic bag full of Wojnicki stickers. Yeah. From your company. Um, you can label everything courtesy of Mabel. So you’ve identified your, your primary target market and it’s like you are one of them actually. You’re one of them on steroids. You have six kids and whatever, and you’re also doing the full-time work thing. And so I think that’s very smart. But this is a great example I’m gonna say of where you’re filtering. What parts of your brand you’re sharing. If you were at a stage where you’re looking for investors and you go into a room, frankly, whether there’s women there or not, having baby vomit on you should not be the first thing that comes out. ‘Cause you’re filtering for the things that are gonna help you establish credibility with those people. It doesn’t mean you’re not a great mom; it doesn’t mean you vanished from motherhood to businesswoman. It means you’re showing up as. A working mom who has it together, right? And so the other parts of your brand, Julie, will be being a hard worker, able to transition, solving problems, leading teams, inspiring people, and resonating with clients. All of these things, like I tell people, to come up with a list of about 15 themes that includes your current employer and your current title. The industry expertise you have the functional expertise, you have your leadership style, your formal credentials, the school that you went to, whatever other credentials that you have, awards that you’ve won, huge things that you’ve created or accomplished geography.  So for some people, it’s like born and bred in Toronto, but I love to travel. Or it could be, you know, I’ve lived and worked in three different continents, and I love traveling. Whatever the geography is your family is for everybody. Young, old male, female. Your family role, like I, I say this, whether you say I’m a cat mom to two really lucky cats, or whether you say I’m the mom of six hooligans ranging in age from blah, blah, blah to blah, blah, blah, right? We all have some kind of family role. It could be that you’re in the sandwich generation. I know a lot of my peers are talking about their very aging parents and their crazy teenagers or young 20-somethings. That’s another whole other thing. Thing. Right? So all of these elements are part of your brand, and you never are gonna share all 15 of these things ’cause people would say you’re crazy. It also includes your personal hobbies. What do you do? I don’t know, Julie, after. What time are they in bed after 1130 at night, and maybe on the weekends when you’re not doing Mabel’s Labels. Right. So all of those things are part of your brand. And I mean, if you’re pitching to investors, you would tell them, part of our story that it makes us resonate so well with our customers is the fact that we are the target market. Right? I am a mom, and I do. So that’s how it would come up as opposed to you grabbing a mic and sharing what happened in your house this morning. Right. Does that help? Okay, I got a thumbs up. Who else has a question?  Anne Grason: Hi, Andrea. I’m so sorry I came in late. I was on a call that just wouldn’t end. So I’ll listen to the recording later. But comes to imposter syndrome, and you may have already covered this. Do you think that affects everybody or primarily women? What’s your point of view on that?  AW: So the research shows that it affects everyone. I like. I’ve done a bit of a deep dive here because I would say second to personal branding, the most common questions or focuses that I get for workshops and coaching is on confidence. Confidence and overcoming imposter syndrome, really. So I’ve done a deep dive in the research on it. I can tell you a coupleof  things. I can tell you that the. Tide has shifted a little bit on imposter syndrome. There’s a recent, within the last maybe four years, HBR article where they talk about stop blaming women for having imposter syndrome and start changing the culture so they don’t feel this sense of inadequacy. And the other thing is it’s not just women. It’s not just unsuccessful women, it’s also successful women. It’s also men that have it. I can tell you anecdotally. Men are not coming to me saying, I need help with my confidence to the extent that women are. I can also tell you, there is beautiful research that I stumbled across this past summer that says, here’s the sentence, I memorized it. Self-concept clarity builds self-esteem. When I read that sentence, I was like, yes, this is what I see. This is what I see with my clients. Self-concept clarity is. Building your strong, unique, personal brand, self-concept, clarity, build self-esteem. That’s social psychology. Talk for overcoming imposter syndrome and communicating with confidence, right? So I think, an important thing for me to highlight when you do the work on articulating your unique strengths and passions and skills, your confidence generally will be boosted, and when your confidence is boosted. You have credibility. We don’t listen to people, we don’t believe people, we don’t follow people who aren’t confident. If you’re confident, though, people are gonna say, Oh, she seems to know what she’s talking about. I’m gonna think about what they’re saying. Maybe you know some of the things that I was talking about before, where people talk over you, or they interrupt you. These things, you can dampen them by. Asserting and clarifying who you are and what your value is. Yeah, so Sorry Anne. I went on, I went on a little bit of a rant there.  Yeah. It’s, it’s a, it’s golden. It’s gold. It’s what I was, um, I was. I was outside on my deck in, it was like July, and I read the sentence and I stood up and I did a dance. I was like, yes, yes, yes. That’s it. Self-concept, clarity builds self-esteem. Bam. That’s what I’m here for. Yeah, that’s, that’s the link between confidence and branding. So actually I think that’s a great place to end. I wanna say thank you so much for being here. I hope that you got some valuable insights. I hope you are thinking about your brand differently, whether it’s what people are saying about you, when you’re not in the room, what people think you’re gonna do next, or. Hopefully, being yourself on purpose, being unapologetic, being strategic, being disciplined, taking a little bit of time, I’m telling you a little bit of time thinking about this stuff will take you a long way. If you wanna learn more, go to TalkAboutTalk.com and in the top there’s like a little search, whatever magnifying glass you can just enter personal branding or personal brand and a lot of the resources will come up, the masterclasses, but also the podcast episodes and newsletters and on and on, so we can continue the conversation there or on LinkedIn. And I hope you have a great rest of your day. Thank you. Talk soon. The post Personal Branding for WOMEN Leaders (ep.203) appeared first on Talk About Talk.
• The RIPPLE Effect: NETWORKING for Success with Baron Manett, Shelagh Paul, and David Tsubouchi (ep.202) 08.12.2025 40นาที

  When it comes to networking, your strongest professional relationships are the ones you build long before you expect to need them. Learn from 3 accomplished leaders who know how the ripple effect works in real life. You will hear insights from BARON MANETT, Founder and Chief Experience Officer at PSBX, SHELAGH PAUL, Head of Global Communications at OMERS, and THE HONOURABLE DAVID TSUBOUCHI, former Ontario Cabinet Minister. They all contributed to the book “The Ripple Effect: Networking for Success,” and in this episode, they share personal stories about connection, reciprocity, and the habits that help the right people stay in your orbit. This conversation will help you rethink your approach to networking. You will learn how to make a clear and respectful ask, how to stay relevant without being transactional, how to recognize valuable peers early in your career, and how consistent behaviour builds a reputation that others trust. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube CONNECT WITH THE GUESTS Baron Manett 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/baronmanett/ 🌐 PSBX: https://www.psbx.co/ Shelagh Paul 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shelaghpaul29/ The Honourable David Tsubouchi 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidtsubouchi/ MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE 📚 Books: The Ripple Effect: Networking for Success by David Tsubouchi and Marc Kealey – https://amzn.to/3WZyqpK  The Currency of Gratitude by Michele Bailey – https://amzn.to/434Vqpe The 4 C’s Formula by Dan Sullivan – https://amzn.to/49t6RMZ Who Moved My Cheese by Dr. Spencer Johnson – https://amzn.to/4nYujVE 🎧 Podcasts: The Tim Ferriss Show – https://tim.blog/podcast/ The Diary of a CEO by Steven Bartlett –  https://www.youtube.com/@TheDiaryOfACEO TRANSCRIPTION Shelagh Paul: You don’t know the diamonds that are all around you in your own peer set right now.  David Tsubouchi: When you’re helping others, they remember that, and they remember you. Baron Manett: To make it work in true networking, somebody has to pick up the phone. Andrea Wojnicki: Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast, where you’ll learn the communication skills so that you can communicate with confidence, credibility, and achieve your career goals. Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki, and I’m your executive communication coach. Just call me Andrea. Please check out the TalkAboutTalk.com website to learn more about all the services that we offer at Talk About Talk, including private coaching, corporate workshops and online courses. And don’t forget to hit subscribe, so you’ll never miss a new podcast episode. Today we’re talking about networking specifically what you need to do to create the network that you need later by taking action today. I have to admit, I was a little bit nervous about this episode because it’s the first time that I’ve interviewed three guests at once. Yes, the power of three me plus three. But it went really well, and I hope you agree.  About the Guests: Baron, Shelagh & David All three of these guests contributed to a book on networking called The Ripple Effect: Networking for Success. You’re gonna hear from my friend Baron Manett. He’s my favorite classmate from our MBA program. He wrote a chapter called Curious, Grateful, and People First, Networking for Future Leaders. Baron is a leading Canadian brand strategist, a marketing professor, and the founder of Per Se brand experience.  Then there’s Shelagh Paul, author of the chapter entitled The People on the Bus. Yes. Shelagh is a master of the metaphor, and she is also the global lead at Omers of Communications. Yes, communications. I think I have a new friend.  And finally, David Tsubouchi. David’s the co-editor of this book that we’re referencing, The Ripple Effect Networking for Success, which was published in 2025. David’s chapter is entitled, be a Giver, not a Taker. I love this. He’s an accomplished leader, a former Canadian cabinet minister, and an author whose insights on generosity and connection are nothing less than inspiring. Overview: Why Networking Feels “Icky” — and How to Fix It Okay, let’s get into this. As a communication coach, I know that often people feel icky about networking, but when you’re purposeful about networking, and you make an effort. That effort can go a long way, and this conversation will provide you with many suggestions for how to make that happen. Here we go. Thank you so much, David, Shelagh, and Baron for being here today to talk to us about networking and the ripple effect. Let’s start with a big picture. The book title, the Ripple Effect, and Networking for Success. I would say that this is an evocative title. It’s a beautiful metaphor. David, can you share with us what inspired you to create this collection and to use this title? DT: I’m gonna start you off in a different direction. That wasn’t the original title that I submitted. Uh, the original title I submitted was. The no *hole rule. And, uh, the publisher reminded me that, uh, we, we have Simon Schuster distribute this in the United States, and that probably wouldn’t be a good thing to have as a title. And he was quite right because we were lucky enough to get book list, which makes recommendations, the libraries in the United States to recommend a book for the libraries down there. So it was a wise decision. So, as you know, I mean, the ripple effect, you know, one small ripple can create. Figure waves. Uh, and sometimes it’s a matter of time. I mean, networking is not something that happens overnight. It’s about creating relationships. And all of us will say the same thing. Uh, it’s a common thing throughout the book that the ripple effect, uh, is about quality, not quantity. It’s about having that circle of integrity around you. It’s like having the culture, you know, organizations have to have a good culture to be successful. The same thing with the, with, uh, your network.  AW: Exactly. It’s the quality of relationships, not the quantity of relationships. And I was gonna say the term network is itself almost like, well, it’s not a network, it’s describing what it is. And I love this image of. The ripple effect, like a drop of water and how it ripples out. And it grows not just in quantity, but in quality. So networking starts with the first step, right? The drop of water.  Taking the First Step: How to Reach Out Authentically Baron, in your chapter in the book, you talk about how you reached out to David you years ago, and you were, I’m gonna say a little bit nervous or anxious about doing so. Can you tell us that story and then talk generally about how we should write that first email. I get this question all the time from my clients. They’re like, it’s just awkward. How do you do that?  BM: It’s a great question. It’s so great to be, uh, back on the podcast, and thanks for having us. You know, I think back on it ’cause it was approximately 20 plus years ago when I first really heard of this guy, David Tsubouchi. And I was, uh, I thought I was a kind of high Roland in advertising creative person, and I had a great idea, long story short, an idea around poker, and I thought it would be just as simple. To just, I sold it to our awesome client. It turned out to, you know, be a big program, and I just thought I’d go down to the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario, like a driver’s license kind of thing. And I just get a license. And I walked in, I said, I’m just here for my license, for my poker tournament. And the outspoken clerk behind the counter says, you whatcha talking about, you can’t have that. And then, who are you? I was like, whatcha talking about? I just give it, go ahead. Just how much is it? It’s illegal. I go, well, that’s the most preposterous thing I’ve ever heard. I go, who came up with that law? And she goes, listen, if you don’t like it, don’t complain to me. Call David Tsubouchi ’cause he wrote the law. And I went home, and I went back to the office. I looked it up, and he is right, some guy named David Tsubouchi. And so I got his number, luckily. And I called them. And here’s what’s really interesting, right? Because I talk to a lot of young people who are afraid to make the call, and I totally get that. I was afraid to make the call. So I didn’t just call the honorable David Tsubouchi government minister. I did a little bit of research. What was his purview where, you know, what was he focused on? I obviously could not talk to him on his peer level at the time, but I was hoping I could at least find common grounds of themes. And one of them was around innovation. You know, Mr. Tsubouchi liked to do things first, so did I. Common ground, even though we are different ages. But to make it work in true networking, somebody has to pick up the phone, right? Somebody has to say yes. I hear a lot of people complaining, oh, my kids are networking all they can, and I believe them. Are they as prepared as possible? But are we being good partners on the other side? If David doesn’t pick up the phone, if David doesn’t say yes to me, none of this book, none of this story happens for me. Right. So it’s a two-way street. It’s a value exchange. So thank goodness David was open-minded enough to realize that it’s not just one level. We, and now 20 plus years later, I’m trying to pay him back and so many other people by picking up the phone and saying yes. And you know, we can’t just lecture people to call into the air. So it was a great lesson for me early to come prepared. And it’s not a one-way ask ever. AW: I love that it’s not a one-way ask, and also this point about preparation. I’ve heard from some other wise folks that you wanna make it really easy for the other person to help you, but you also wanna make it. Clear that you’re not wasting their time. And I can imagine, I think I knew you back then, Baron. You’re a keen young whipper snapper, and I bet you immediately impressed him, but he didn’t have to pick up the phone. DT: Let me interject here if I could. You know, it’s how you ask to, I mean, look at all of us on this call, get all kinds of requests to meet and to talk to all kinds of people all the time. You know, when Baron called me, I didn’t know Baron from anybody else, and I just liked the tone of his voice and the way he was talking, and it wasn’t someone who was reaching out and saying, I need this from you, or whatever it is. Uh, we just had a good conversation to begin with and, you know, it’s like having a, not coming out and asking right away. But creating the interest on having a relationship with somebody else. And as you know, by now, because you know, Baron, I mean he’s very personable and, uh, he kind of sucked me in.  AW: So yeah, that’s Baron’s superpower. That’s Baron’s superpower. But you’re reminding me, David, of the other thing that he said was that he identified something that the two of you have in common, right? Your quest for innovation, creativity being the first one. That’s brilliant. I talk about how this is like accelerating the relationship trajectory when you mention anything like, oh, you worked with so and so, or, oh, you’re focused on this, or whatever it is, your leadership style. Me too, whatever it is. Absolutely brilliant.  Start Before You Need Something: The Early Bird Gets the Cake So Shelagh, I wanna get you in here. You talk in your chapter about how. The early bird gets the cake, and I absolutely love this. I love this. It’s powerful. Can you share exactly what you mean by this in the context of networking and what advice you have for listeners, many who have maybe early in their career, or even if you’re not early in your career. How does this early bird gets the cake fit in here?  SP: Thanks, Andrea. And thank you for having, uh, me join this great group on this topic. Might that chapter or might that part of my chapter? The point was start networking before you need something. So, exactly what David just said, if you have identified someone that you might share an interest, you might really appreciate their perspective on something. That’s the best way in. So for me, it’s what about that person’s perspective on something might help me grow my own perspective on something. So I’m not asking you for an introduction, I’m not asking you for anything other than a conversation. Uh, and I think that’s the best way, and I think this insight for me happened in. I was looking back on some of the things that worked out in the best possible ways. So I was dumped into a committee, uh, in 2010, auto change, uh, when I was in the insurance business. And it was a group of people that I just found bright, fascinating, interesting. And I thought, I gotta get to know these people. I wasn’t going into it because I wanted to network with them. I just really, truly wanted to learn from them. And so doing it early and getting the cake, uh, is, has got a tie into our actual story, but I’ll leave that for now. It’s networking when there’s nothing at stake, and that’s all there really is to it. So those people in that group, in that particular story, have all gone on, and I won’t name them to do spectacular things. And we are peers. So it wasn’t again that I think when some people think about networking, they’re like, I need someone that’s maybe more senior than me, or someone that can help open a door for me. And that is a certain type of networking. But for this, I was talking about you don’t know the diamonds that are all around you in your own peer set right now. Pay attention to those two, pick the right ones, pay attention to those two because you dunno what doors that might be opened for you 20 years later. AW: I love that. And I heard you say Shelagh. I’m not just in there to network, like, it’s like, it’s almost like it’s a dirty word, right? I get this question all the time, or this response when I talk about networking, which is like, ugh.] And you’re saying get to know people before you need to.  SP: Exactly. The last part of your question was about early-stage career versus maybe someone more seasoned. Hmm. And I would say early in your career, there are lots of opportunities. Get away from your desk or whatever you’re doing. Try to find other groups of people with like interests. Like Baron was saying, people that you can connect with. If you’re at a big company, they usually have employee resource groups. There’s lots of opportunities to connect with people outside of your actual job and someone more seasoned. Think about it when you’re at a table, and you’re about to debate or try to decide something together. How much fun, easier, more respectful. Will it be if you’ve already built the relationship with them before you get to the situation where you need to actually navigate a, a solution together? DT: Shelagh’s a hundred percent. Right? And, I get asked an awful lot by people, how do you meet people above your pay grade? The easiest example I can give is politics, and I don’t care if you’re what party you’re with, but if you have volunteer for a political party. You think about other people are volunteering, and a lot of the people volunteering are very important people, and they see you then as a colleague, not someone who wants something from them, but someone in a common cause. And, you know, you got a chance. I mean, I inadvertently fell into politics and meeting people as a raw kid out of law school. And all of a sudden I’m rubbing shoulders with like Mel Lastman, who’s the mayor of North York at the time, cabinet ministers, and obviously, it’s not most kid. I didn’t know anything. And, but here you get a chance to meet people way above, and you don’t need, and Shelagh’s right? You’re meeting people now as a volunteer. You’re not asking them for anything. But you know, later in life, that kind of connection. Really, really resonates because. They know you as something else other than something who wants, someone wants something. They have that camaraderie with you. So I think Shelagh’s a hundred percent right on this because you meet people, but have a genuine interest on what you’re doing and the commonality, whatever the cause is. I mean, don’t be a, you know, a mercenary going in there. You gotta be, someone really cares what’s going on.  Why Nobody Wants to Be Sold To AW: Oh. As you were speaking there, I was, I kept thinking about personal branding, right? So, I’m a little bit obsessed with the topic of personal branding. It’s like you establish what you have in common with a person, but you also make it clear what value you add, what expertise you have, your unique brand, and then magical things will happen. But you’re not coming in to Shelagh’s point. You’re not coming in with the ask; you’re coming in with the let’s collaborate. Let’s get to know each other. Let’s establish a relationship, and I think a lot of people feel like they don’t know how to do that because ultimately, like, why am I going to this networking event? Ultimately, maybe it’s to somehow accelerate my career progression and they feel selfish, and they feel salesy and they’ll, they feel icky. So I’m wondering what your take is on this, Baron, in your chapter, I have a quote here. You said, gone are the days of aggressive sales pitches. Pushing your agenda at networking events, right? Like the, Hey, nice to meet you. Guess what I do? People wanna help and be helped is what you said.  How exactly do we do this? I mean, it’s one thing to say that we all nod our heads. How do you actually do that? BM: I think, none of us have time to be sold to. And I think if I’m gonna have value to or add value to interrupt someone’s time if they don’t know me, or to engage someone who does know me and take up their time, how can I be helpful? How can I provide utility? And that might not be what I’m selling at the time. That might be somebody I know or experience that I can share, but I think being helpful. Has relevance, and I think we only have time for relevance now, and we don’t have time for sales pitches. That’s how I feel when people connect, meet with me, and I tell them what I try and bring to my contacts and conversations. AW: So I’m gonna interrupt this interview and challenge the listeners to do something right now. Think about who has helped you in your career, and think about how that happened, and think about how you think about that person. In terms of in your network, what role they play versus like LinkedIn, every time I log into LinkedIn, someone has sent me a connection request, and then boom, sales pitch selling me something, selling me something. Andrea, can I send you a video? Andrea, la la la. I’m like, didn’t ask to be sold to. I thought we were connecting. This is not connecting. Right. It’s become. Well, it’s gone from the networking events, right? The classic cocktail party to now happening on LinkedIn. Uh, I would say an accelerated time, and I love your point, Baron. It’s not what am I selling? It’s how am I helping for value? BM: I mean, and just to go back to something David said before, right when I first met David, we of course, career-wise, no parody. Uh, the same today, right? But what David let me do was to his point about volunteerism, he had a couple programs. He said, Hey, do you want to help, you know, with your talent set? And he let me be in the room. He let me be around the table. He let me learn how to be in the room and then when to talk and when to not talk. And I think more as leaders now, we need to be, remind ourselves of that young people need to be in the room. Right? And the same time, younger professionals, if you are gonna be in the room. You gotta earn the room. It’s a two-way street, right? A lot of people I talk to want the ball, and then they don’t know what to do with. It was fine, but just speak up. So nobody has to be perfect, but with opportunity comes responsibility, I think.  SP: You know, and you’re going to an event, you’re, you’re gonna be somewhere where you know, you. I might wanna have a conversation with someone. I hope that’s everywhere, but I have a couple of back-pocket questions. Just ones that you know, and because I’ll say one of the networking events we were at for this book, a young professional came up to me and said, you’re really approachable, but I have such a hard time, you know, just coming over and starting to talk to someone. I said, well, how hard was it? So you just did it? So let’s just take that step by step. I mean, the ask was so specific. We ended up having a 20-minute conversation. We’re now connected on LinkedIn, blah blah. So and so. If he came back to me and asked me another question, I’d be all in answering it. So rather. General like you can you, again, you can smell who said it. I can smell it a mile away. When there’s an attempt to sort of flatter your career and get specific is my point. Like, ask a question and you’re gonna get a way better return on value  AW: And you can get meta. So I know you’re big on communications Shelagh, as well, and just calling out the awkwardness of the event can actually be the icebreaker of the conversation, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, we’ve been talking about the in-person networking event and a little bit about networking in the digital era. And I know that, um, all of us here have. Done all of the above, right? We’ve gone to those conferences, and you go, and you fill your glass, and then you turn around and you look at the swarm of strangers that you’ve never met. And maybe if you’re an extrovert, you’re excited, and if you’re an introvert, you’re horrified, but you go in and you network versus what’s going on on LinkedIn. I’m wondering if you have any advice for  professionals who are young and old again, who are looking to establish a stronger network and meaningful relationships when most of the interactions that they’re experiencing may maybe because they’re working from home or at least they’re hybrid when most of it’s virtual. Anyone can jump in on this one,  SP: I think for there’s no one-size-fits-all all. So the only advice I would give in that space is figure out how to be authentic. Online, in a teams chat, in a room, whatever, people can smell through non-authentic connections. So practice. Like show some people what, like this is what I, how I might start a conversation on LinkedIn, What’s your reaction to that? And, so for people that already know you and trust you and know that your intent is good, they’ll likely say, you know what? That’s,  I wouldn’t answer that. If I got that, here’s what I might do. And then I think again. We asked this question about sort of in person in the office versus on screen, and we all learned how to create relationships on screen. It’s not impossible. I still in the camp where it’s better in person, but I think again, if you can show a little soul is what I call it, it’s a little more interesting through screen than not.  AW: I have a quick anecdote that I wanna share that you just reminded me of. Shelagh during one of my kids was in college, and there was parents’ weekend, which obviously didn’t happen ’cause we were being confined to our houses. So they had a Zoom call with like 50 parents or it was open, but there were like 50 parents on the screen. And I had my name Andrea Wojnicki Talk About Talk on the bottom of my screen. And someone sent me an email, and she said, I’m in the Zoom with you. I just googled Talk About Aalk. Looks like you have a very cool company. Can we set up a meeting and chat? And I was like. Wow, this is happening virtually, and I became great friends with this woman. She’s also an entrepreneur. She lives in Silicon Valley. Like you can do it online. You can use the chat, use private chat, use the public chat, put your LinkedIn profile right in the chat so other people can connect with you. What other advice do you have for making this happen in a virtual context? Anyone else?  DT: Well, you know what, uh, I’ll just tell you about Murray Simpson. Murray’s one of our writers, and I didn’t know who Murray was, and he connected with me through LinkedIn, and then like I get a lot of requests to meet, uh, and I can’t do all of them obviously, but. The way he asked me, like, Baron, he said, you know, eventually we, he said, you know, could I, could you meet with him and give him a little bit of advice on his company? So I looked him up and I actually, I looked up some of the people who were supporting him, which I, I need one half, which helped out. And I said, well, I’m going downtown for a meeting down at the, uh, at Elmers. Uh, I’ll give you half an hour, you know, in the evening. Have a coffee with me and we ended up talking for three and a half hours. Wow. And we just connected on, like, I talk to Murray now three times a week. He’s like, Baron’s age too. So he is a, you know, we’re a different generation, but we connected on so many different levels, and now we do a lot of stuff together, and here’s somebody I didn’t know at all, and through LinkedIn and connected to. And of course, I guess what you have to say sometimes is, uh, you can make that connection on, on, on, through. Remotely. But ultimately I think your personality and who you are really closes the sale,  AW: Your personality and being, as we said at the very beginning, authentic and focused on the other person, as opposed to, and it sounds, I was gonna say, David, your story, it sounds like it was a virtual relationship. That’s in person, and now it’s hybrid, right? To use the vocabulary that we’re using.  The Power of Gratitude and Follow-Ups Okay. I’ve got two more questions for you before we move to the rapid-fire questions, if that’s okay. The first one is regarding follow-ups and thank you notes. I mean, it’s probably a sexist cliche, but your mom always told you to send thank you notes and follow up. Right? But what are your thoughts on this in the context of networking?  BM: It’s a passion area for me. I actually just got my new thank-you note. It’s the first gift I got when I started, right before I started my career. Every young person I’ve met with in my career, I suggest a thank you note because, as a marketer, it is the biggest bang for your buck as a marketer. If you think about it, the price of a stamp. Talking about paper envelope, handwritten analog, and it’s delivered to your audience. I’ve received 14 thank-you notes in my career from young people. I do about 75 to 101 oh ones a year. I’ve hired half of those thank-you note writers. And the other half, I found jobs, if you wanna break through. It’s the easiest way in the world, and it’s so thoughtful, and it’s a lost art.  SP: I would say in addition to what Baron’s just said, I think you have to train yourself to be appreciative, and that sounds really weird, I know that, but if it’s transactional, it’s like I just had a meeting and now I need to send a thank you note. At least you’re gonna do it. But sometimes it can feel like a chore, or I’m not really sure what I’m gonna say. I think what I found is I had to sort of change my whole, I am an appreciative, grateful person to begin with, but I’m like, how do I get in the habit of every day looking for things I appreciate? And that’s something I talk about in the book, and it’s different from a gratitude journal. It’s not the things I’m grateful for in life, of which sunlight streaming through right now. It’s a kind word from somebody in the office. It’s the crunchiness of a fresh apple. It’s something that’s brought me pure joy, and so I do five things I appreciate in the last 24 hours. Every single morning. I force myself to write those down. And then I’m not allowed to repeat anything. My dog would be on the list every time if I did. So I have to look for things to be appreciative about and what that’s done, and I didn’t realize it was gonna happen. It’s now two years in that I’ve been doing this, is I look for things to be appreciative about, whether it’s a conversation. With somebody, a hap, you know, a happenstance meeting in the kitchen, something that one of my teammates says to me that really touches me and I make sure they know. I say, thank you because you made my list today. You made me happy. You made me just a pure spark of joy. And that practice has made me more likely to do exactly what Baron just said to do, which is write a thank-you note. Let someone know what they did that was meaningful for me.  DT: Shelagh, that makes you more attractive to everyone else as well. That positivity just attracts people to you. And I think that’s what people need to understand. Look, I can tell you a quick story here. I’m working at home just before Christmas, a few years ago, and I got the FM radio on, listen to the local FM station. And they had these two ladies come on, uh, talking about this women’s shelter. Locally, and I really liked them. I just listened to ’em. These things, the house was sincere, and they’re trying to raise $500 in an hour. So about 15 minutes before the program ended, I called them and said, how you doing? Said, we’re doing pretty good. We raised the $200. And I thought, well, geez. So I said, I’ll give you the $300. And so I gave him the $300. Then I get a beautiful note from these people and I thought, well that’s kind of nice now because of the note they sent me, my wife and I are that, that’s our major charity we support out here now. And, but it’s because they were thoughtful enough to send me a note, and I really appreciate it. It’s a small gesture, but boy, we remember these things as Bar said.  AW: That’s a such a beautiful story, David, that really. Illustrates the point that I sometimes share with people, which is if you don’t follow up after you meet with someone, you may as well have not made the connection at all. Right? It’s closing the loop and the thank you note is a beautiful reminder and your reinforcing how important or how grateful you are. I wanted to ask you, Shelagh, do people know about your practice of writing down the five things every day.  SP: I tell people now, um, I try to inspire other people to do it because I, I honestly think it changed my outlook on life doing this. So, um, I just am a happier person, but I was unhappy before. But it’s just, you know, looking for things that make you smile. And it was actually in a podcast I listened to. A couple of years back, and again, they sort of unpacked the difference between gratitude and appreciation, and I thought appreciation is just way easier. It’s way on. It’s on the fly for things to make you happy, not for things to argue about. It’s. A ripple effect, literally.  AW: So one of the, my past, uh, podcast guest experts is Michele Bailey, who wrote a book called The Currency of Gratitude, and she talks about these benefits of sending a thank you. You’re closing the loop, you’re reinforcing the relationship, you’re demonstrating your values and your personality. There’s like no downside. In fact, there’s like a whole positive ripple. So, here is the last question that I wanna ask before we get to the three rapid fire question, is that I’m hoping that this podcast episode, this conversation itself will be a ripple and if someone listening, an individual listener takes action after hearing this episode, what is the one thing that you hope they’ll do? This is your opportunity for a very brief last word, or I’ll give you a sentence. Okay. About what you hope people will do differently after listening to this Baron? Yeah,  BM: And that’s a great question. I would hope that I’m gonna do a two-parter. One is that maybe we’ve made it a little less scary to reach out to that person you wanna reach out to. And two, reach out with purpose, right? So the biggest gift you can give is someone’s is your time. If you’re gonna ask for that gift. The least we can do is say thank you about the gift, right? So that’s the full circle. I love what you’re talking about here. So can say thank you in a number of ways you can make donations. You can tell people how great people are, but the least you can do is say thank you. And it’s so inexpensive. And sadly, right now, a very easy way to look like the tallest, most wonderful person in the room. So I think. Don’t be afraid. ’cause you’ll be surprised how many people will say yes and pick up the phone and don’t ignore the amount of work it is for someone to make time for you, ’cause it’s extremely valuable. Okay. Shelagh?  SP: I would say flip the script. Get out of this. I mean, it sounds strange for someone who’s written a chapter on networking, forget about networking. Try and get. Your own instinct, your own internal muscle around building human connection, every opportunity you get. So again, it’s not to Baron’s point, it doesn’t have to be a scary thing if you are just focused on expanding your community in the moments where you’re not actually even trying to build a network, just think about it differently. You need to change the I have to, to, I want to. You’re not gonna be successful. AW: That’s powerful. And before you need it, to your previous point, David. DT: You know, I talk to a lot of senior executives, and they have trouble networking, too. And one of the things I say to them is mentor. Because mentoring’s a two-way street. And it’s interesting how many people over the years I’ve, I’ve mentored, and years later they’ve become very successful and they always ask me if they can help me out. I’m not really after anything right now. I’m doing too much stuff right now. But it’s interesting when you’re helping others, they remember that. Remember you first of all, anytime they more need more advice or help with something or new, new project. So it’s a two-way street and I think it’s being always, again, as we talked earlier on, it’s better to give than receive and to have that degree of POS positivity in what you do. Wrap-Up & Rapid-Fire Questions AW: Fantastic. Okay. Are the three of you ready for the three? Gosh, I love this. The power of three everywhere. The three rapid-fire questions. We are gonna make this rapid fire. Okay. The first question, I think it was Baron or maybe David, who already kind of answered this on behalf of the group, but the first question is, are you an introvert or an extrovert? David?  DT: Uh, introvert.  AW: Shelagh  SP: Introvert or Gambivert. Apparently, there’s a new category, introverts that like socializing. That’s me. So, uh, or extrovert that are, or more thoughtful, but I’m more the introvert who likes socializing.  BM: Okay. Baron introvert. I wanna be alone with my thoughts. Really? Okay. Yeah. I thought I knew you, Baron. Wow. If I have a preference, I love people. I just love them over there. Yeah.  AW: Okay. I know this is rapid fire, but I just wanna say, Shelagh, I didn’t wanna, um, trivialize your answer. I ask introvert or extrovert to be provocative. The truth is most of us are ambiverts. We need social time to fill us up, and we also need solitude to fill us up. DT: So, I’m a professional likes being alone in this farm. Yeah.  AW: Nice. Okay, next question. I actually can’t wait to hear this. I’m gonna ask this in reverse order. What. Is or are your communication pet peeves? What infuriates you about the way other people communicate? Baron?  BM: People who spell names wrong. AW: Ooh. Too many R’s and not  BM: enough T’s. Right? You know, I know it’s not the easiest name, but I didn’t ask you to reach out, so just spellcheck. That’s all just details. Those things I find silly. And the no thank you is, uh, I think intolerable obviously. I’m on the record.  AW: Can you, sorry. I know this is rapid fire. What do you mean the don’t thank you.   BM: You gotta say thank you afterwards, after a phone call. I’m not saying, Hey, thank you. Don’t say, yeah, that’s, that’s a no-go for me. Okay, Shelagh,  SP: I’m just gonna tack on Aarons, and then I’ll answer the question. I have two first names, right? So. And Paul, please trust that I know the order to put them in, and do not send me a message to Paul because I get it all the time because it’s a more familiar name, like. Have a look at how, what the person’s LinkedIn profile is. The chances are if they’ve got this far in life, they don’t have their name in the wrong order. So that would be, that would be my ask is don’t call me Paul. My communication, uh, pet peeve is actually an evident lack of curiosity. Someone is speaking to you, and they’re just speaking to get their point across, or they just wanna be told what it is you need from them or, and you know, if you’re as a communicator, if you are not curious, you are not thinking about what your audience is thinking about. And so in, in terms of growing communicators, I love stumbling across curious people, and that’s what we need more of.  AW: Amazing. David.  DT: Yeah. I hate it when people don’t say what they’re after. I’ve got a great interesting idea for you. I mean, tell me what do you want my help with to begin with? Secondly, I hate lazy people, so, you know, like. Someone who on LinkedIn will say to me, what do you do? My history is on my profile. Just read the stupid thing. And that automatically just, you know, thinking, well, I’m gonna delete that.  AW: Yeah. Oh, I’m with you. The stupid questions that people try to open with on LinkedIn, it’s like, come on, it’s all there. I’d love to hear more about what you do as you look at my profile.  Okay. Question number three. Is there a podcast or a book that you find yourself recommending lately? Shelagh. Diary of a CEO. Oh yeah, I was just listening to it in the car. SP: So I, again, there’s a, I, this is rapid fire, so I won’t get into the tons of examples that I had that are so relevant to the conversation we’re having. But there was an episode on the small things and being able to remember the small things about people, and it’s a really interesting differentiation that I don’t think I’d put my mind to. Before, so not just their name, what they do, whatever else, but a year later, you remember their child’s name, or you remember something about the story that they told you. And most people have to write that down. So that’s again, being intentional. If you meet someone, try to remember the small details, ’cause you will stand out if you can do that.  AW: Yes, people are. Really flattered when you remember personal things about them. I know speaking from experience, being on both sides of that equation, I think Diary of a CEO is really popular, and I just thought about this today when I was listening to the podcast. It is today’s Tim Ferriss podcast. ‘Cause Tim Ferriss used to interview really successful people and try to pull in like what are the skills that we can learn? And I think Diary of CEOs doing the same thing. Baron, is there a podcast or a book that you find yourself recommending?  BM: Yes, both actually. Uh, the book I’m loving right now is a book called The Four Cs, the Four Conversations by Blair Ends, who I think is the best writer of developing how to sell expertise. Certs just amazingly smart. And then the podcast I’m listening to is a marketing podcast Right now, best story wins. The podcast. Podcast. So just talk to me every week how, uh, different brand leaders come on and break down their challenges. Uh, yeah, motivating, motivating for somebody in my profession. AW: Fantastic. I’m gonna leave links to those in the show notes. And David,  DT: A book I got years ago when I was in the board of, uh, Tet before, uh, uh, it was bought up by Omar years ago. The CEO give everyone on board a, a copy of Who Moved My Cheese and the simple book about. Learning a lesson from everything you go through, whether it’s positive or negative. And that’s very important for all of us. And Baron and I, oh, before the pandemic, were asked to talk to a, a big pharmaceutical company on our greatest failures because I’ve learned more lessons from my greatest failures, and I’ve had some spectacular ones than I have about successes. And so the I idea of all this is maintain that positivity. Learn from everything you undergo.  AW: Be humble. Right. Okay. I’m gonna leave links to the books and the podcast that you mentioned in the show notes. I’m also going to leave links to your LinkedIn profiles and any other connections that you wanna leave with the listeners. And I just wanna end by saying thank you so much, all three of you, for sharing your unique perspectives on the ripple effect Networking for success. Thank you, David. Thank you, Shelagh. Thank you, Baron. What a great conversation. I love that. Okay, here are my top three takeaways from Baron, Shelagh, and David. First, start networking long before you need something. As Shelagh says, the early bird gets the cake. I love the metaphors. Shelagh, reach out early. When you’re simply curious or maybe when you’re grateful, not just when you need a favor. Second, remember, no one wants to be sold to. Let me say that again. Nobody wants to be sold to you can do better. So approach people with curiosity and authenticity. As Baron suggested. A great way to start is by saying, I’m not asking you for anything other than a conversation. Love it. Okay. Third, say thank you. Close the loop. Communicate gratitude. A small gesture of appreciation, like a quick note or a message, can make a lasting impression. Gratitude builds trust and strengthens relationships. And that’s it. Please take a moment to subscribe, to talk about, talk on whatever app you’re listening to, or maybe you’re watching us on YouTube. Click subscribe or follow. Thanks for listening and talk soon. The post The RIPPLE Effect: NETWORKING for Success with Baron Manett, Shelagh Paul, and David Tsubouchi (ep.202) appeared first on Talk About Talk.
• How to Craft an Out-of-Office Message That Reinforces Your Leadership Brand (ep. 201) 24.11.2025 9นาที

  Your out-of-office email response is an easy and effective way to communicate who you are as a leader. In this short episode, communication coach Dr. Andrea Wojnicki explains how to craft your OOO email response to reinforce your professional identity. You’ll also learn the four do’s and don’ts: be specific about dates and coverage, be consistent while you’re away, show personality without sarcasm, and don’t overshare. Listen for practical examples you can copy in minutes and start using today. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube TRANSCRIPTION Andrea Wojnicki: An out-of-office message might seem trivial, but it can be a powerful way to reinforce your personal brand if you take advantage of the opportunity.  How Your Out-of-Office Message Reflects Your Leadership Brand Well. It’s the holiday season. First, there’s American Thanksgiving, and then the December craziness starts. We’ve got Hanukkah, Christmas, Kwanzaa, the winter solstice, and of course, New Year’s Eve. I hope you’re able to take some time away from work to refresh and rejuvenate, and be with family and friends. I also hope you’re able to manage your out-of-office status. Have you ever considered that your out-of-office email responder is an opportunity for you to communicate and reinforce your professional identity and your leadership status? Listen. I know you’re really busy, especially this time of year, so here’s my promise to you. In this short episode, you’re gonna learn some ideas that will help you easily elevate your personal brand, all while you’re physically away from the office. Let’s do this. Let’s do this. Let’s Talk About Talk. Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. If you’re a longtime listener, welcome back, and thank you for listening. If you’re a new listener, let me introduce myself. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please just call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach here at Talk About Talk, where I coach ambitious professionals like you so you can communicate with confidence and ultimately achieve your career goals. You can learn more about everything we do at Talk About Talk, including private coaching, masterclasses, and corporate workshops, if you go to TalkAboutTalk.com, and there are plenty of free resources for you there as well. Alright, let’s get into this. Like I said, I know you’re busy always, but especially this time of year, and if you’re like most people, you don’t give a second thought to your out of office status, out of sight, out of mind. Well, not quite. Here’s the big insight. Spending a little bit of time managing your out-of-office status can go a long way in reinforcing your professional identity. Turn Your OOO Message into a Branding Opportunity Let’s talk first about making some tweaks to your out-of-office email responder, and then I’m gonna take you through four dos and don’ts about how to manage your time away. Okay. First, your email responder. This is also relevant for Slack or Teams or whatever messaging platform you use. If there’s an opportunity for you to customize your message, that’s what we’re talking about here. Your out-of-office response can communicate so much about your leadership style. I would call this an under-leveraged communication opportunity where it’s really so easy for you to reinforce your brand. This insight originally came up for me in a recent private coaching session that I had with a brilliant client. We were talking about the touch points that shape our professional identity, and she mentioned how she saw a very thoughtful out-of-office reply, and it made her pause and think. This really says something about who they are as a leader. And you know what? She’s right. An out-of-office message might seem trivial, but it can be a powerful way to reinforce your personal brand if you take advantage of the opportunity. Partly, I think, because people aren’t expecting it, we kind of expect the generic email, I’m away, and my response will be delayed. I’ll get back to you after I return. Hmm. This is a missed opportunity. So here’s what I do instead. First. Identify what part of your personal brand or your professional identity that you wanna emphasize. Do you wanna emphasize your thought leadership? Your people leadership, your strategic thinking. Maybe you wanna role model boundary setting for your internal team, or maybe you want to empower them while you’re away.  Identify the Message You Want to Reinforce This first step is critical. Ask yourself, what’s the one message that you wanna reinforce? And then once you’ve identified this main theme, go into your email settings and craft your out-of-office responder accordingly. Make sure you reinforce that theme that you chose. Here are some examples. If you are an empowering leader, you might say something like, I’m out of the office, but my team’s got this. If you’re a strategic thinker, you might add a comment about taking time to reflect, refocus, and strategize. If you’re a boundary-setting leader, you could say, I’m offline modeling boundaries and making space for the big stuff. And if you’re a thought leader, you could say. In the meantime, while you’re waiting for my response, here’s an article or a link to a podcast episode that I think you’re gonna find helpful. You get the point. Just adding one sentence can have a big impact. I hope this inspires you to think more strategically about reinforcing your leadership style, or you could say your professional identity, through your out-of-office response.  Four Do’s and Don’ts for Crafting a Standout OOO Reply And now I wanna follow up with a few do’s and don’ts. I hope you’ll consider these four pointers when you’re writing your out-of-office email responder and as you’re managing your time away. Yes, there are four more than just the power of three.  1. Be Specific About Dates and Coverage The first one is do be specific about the dates that you’re gonna be gone. And the coverage that you’ve set up, share the date that you’re gonna return, and name the person to contact with urgent needs. And here’s a bonus tip: don’t be tempted to overpromise regarding when you’ll be able to respond. If you’re coming back on January 2nd, don’t promise a response on that day. You know, it’s always more overwhelming when you get back than you anticipated. Am I right? So don’t over promise, rather under promise and overdeliver. This isn’t just about communication skills; this is life advice. Okay?  2. Be Clear About Coverage (and Then Stay Consistent!) My second suggestion is to be clear about coverage and be consistent. If you’ve identified someone who’s looking after urgent things when you’re away, then go and let them do their job. I know, trust me, it’s tempting to jump in and help out, but imagine how this feels to the person you’ve designated to step in for you. They can feel frustrated if your out-of-office responder says that you’re away, but you’re still actively communicating with them and managing through things. It’s also confusing to everyone. You work with your team and your customers, or your clients. So be clear about coverage and responsibilities, and then follow through and be consistent. So now we’ve covered the first two pointers. One. Do be specific about the dates that you’re gone and the coverage that you’ve set up. And two, be clear about the coverage and be consistent.  3. Show a Little Personality (But Keep It Professional) Number three. Show some personality. You could add a joke or something that’s relevant to your firm or your brand, but do be careful. Don’t assume that people will get your sarcasm or your quirky sense of humor. Remember, your out-of-office response goes to everyone, including prospective clients, customers, and people that you haven’t met yet. My suggestion is that you write your out of office responder with some personality, and then ask yourself, if someone read this who didn’t know me, would they be offended? Would they be confused? If yes, then edit it. Remember, sarcasm never does well in an email. Okay?  4. Don’t Overshare — Stay Safe and On-Brand Now, the last, the fourth pointer, do not overshare. Sure, a little personality is great, but the reader does not need to read your full vacation itinerary, and you don’t wanna come across as bragging. I’m off on my private jet to the Riviera, where we’re meeting some friends on their yacht. Ugh, do not do that. And also with regards to oversharing, including your full itinerary, could pose a security risk. Oh, Andrea’s whole family is away and her house is empty until January 2nd. Excellent. Let’s plan the heist now. No, no, no, no. Okay, so these are my four pointers for you. One, do be specific about the dates that you’ll be gone and the coverage that you’ve set up. Two, be clear about that coverage and be consistent. Three, show some personality, and four, do not overshare.  Lead with Clarity — Even When You’re OOO I hope that this brief episode has inspired you to customize your out-of-office email responder in a way that will benefit you. Here’s the thing. The most effective leaders out there communicate with clarity and intention, even when they’re not at their desks. Your team is watching your colleagues, and customers do notice. This is your chance to model behavior, demonstrate credibility, and yes, show a little personality. So take a few minutes to craft something that reinforces your leadership style. Then your email response can do the work for you while you’re off enjoying your time with family and friends. And speaking of family and friends, please forward this episode. It’s Talk About Talk episode number 201. Share it with your family and friends who might find it helpful. And now I hope you go off and enjoy your time away. Talk soon. The post How to Craft an Out-of-Office Message That Reinforces Your Leadership Brand (ep. 201) appeared first on Talk About Talk.
• Top 3 Communication Skills of Exceptional Leaders (ep. 200) 10.11.2025 12นาที

  What makes the most successful leaders stand out? The way they communicate. In this special 200th episode, communication coach Dr. Andrea Wojnicki shares the three ways that leaders communicate differently based on years of executive coaching, workshops, and research. You’ll learn how to: ✔️ Shift from “speaking up” to communicating with intent and precision ✔️ Practice next-level listening to understand, not just respond ✔️ Project confidence and credibility while staying humble and growth-oriented Andrea also reveals the Top 3 most downloaded Talk About Talk episodes of all time, each one packed with tools to boost your communication confidence and impact. If you’re serious about leadership, this episode will show you exactly how to elevate your presence and influence through communication. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE Ep.169: Communicate with Confidence:  Apple:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/communicate-with-confidence-part-1-mental-preparation/id1447267503?i=1000668212684 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/5JjfIbOvKM5uHkTluJ8OO4?si=c4c1b53654454bb3 Ep.154: 5 Quick Fixes to Improve Your Communication:  Apple:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/5-quick-fixes-to-boost-your-communication-effectiveness/id1447267503?i=1000651033350 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/1jLaxQXf9dsfWhhJFohqeh?si=b31772612b604a20 Ep.170: Introductions – How to Introduce Yourself:  Apple:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/introductions-how-to-introduce-yourself-ep-170/id1447267503?i=1000669087059 Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/episode/5Ga0FecP4SHLh4qVfPXYdT?si=ab84ea12e7e644e0 TRANSCRIPTION Andrea Wojnicki: Successful leaders are focused on intent and precision in their communication. By intent, I mean that successful leaders don’t just speak to fill the air. Every word, question, and story has a purpose, whether it’s to inspire, clarify, or align.  How Successful Leaders Communicate Differently — and What You Can Learn from Them Well, hello there. I have an announcement. Talk About Talk is 200. This is our 200th episode. Several people have asked me how we’ll commemorate this 200th episode. Yes, this is a big deal. Andrea, will you list your top 10 episodes to date, maybe your top 10 learnings, or Andrea, we know you’re a big fan of the Power of three. Will you list your top three episodes? Sure, I can do that, but I can also do even better. In this short episode, you’re gonna learn how the most successful leaders communicate differently than everyone else. Over the last several years, I’ve coached hundreds and hundreds of executives, thousands. If you count the folks in the communication skills workshops that I’ve led. And based on my years of coaching ambitious executives, plus the podcast interviews and my research, I have some unique insight into what distinguishes the most successful leaders from everyone else. These are the insights that you wanna hear. If you are hungry to become one of these successful leaders. So I’m gonna share with you three ways that your communication must evolve if you plan to ascend to a position of leadership. And yes, of course, I’ll also share the top three Talk About Talk episodes of all time. Are you ready? Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk. If you’re a regular talk about talk listener, welcome back, and thank you for listening. If you’re a new listener, welcome. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki, please. Just call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach at Talk About Talk, and if you’re ambitious and keen to improve your communication skills to help you achieve your career goals, well, you are in the right place. And whether you’re a longtime listener or a first-time listener, I encourage you to check out the TalkAboutTalk.com website, where you can learn more about what we do here at Talk About Talk, including corporate workshops, private coaching, and online courses. And a free weekly communication skills newsletter. You can learn more on the website. Okay. As I said, people have been asking me for a while now, for several months, how we will commemorate this 200th episode. Yes, it is an important milestone, and to be honest, I have to say I am very proud. And I have this idea that’s been brewing in the back of my mind for a while. It’s this idea of focusing on how successful leaders communicate differently than everyone else. This is a topic that I don’t really hear a lot about. I don’t hear other people talking about it, but it’s critical, really. If you’re a middle or a senior manager, actually, whatever level you’re at. If you’re ambitious and you wanna become a leader with strong communication skills, what would you be doing differently? Today, I mean differently from the junior folks and even differently from the other middle and senior level folks who aren’t quite as successful. I can tell you exactly what you’d be doing differently. So I encourage you to sit back and take this in as a private coaching session. Listen to my three suggestions, evaluate them for yourself, and decide where you can get some traction in your quest to become seen as a successful leader. Communicate with Intent and Precision Alright, here goes the first way that successful leaders communicate differently from everyone else: Instead of focusing on speaking up in meetings and filling the air, you focus on communicating with intent and precision. Let me tell you how this first became apparent to me. I noticed that many of the more junior folks in my corporate workshops would share their struggles to speak up in meetings. And let me tell you so. I can relate. I remember when I was in my twenties, a recent business school graduate, sitting around the boardroom table with my boss and her boss and his boss, and I was so focused on speaking up and saying the right thing. I remember making a rule for myself that I had to speak up at least once in every meeting. I also volunteered to give formal presentations whenever the opportunity arose. It was all about speaking up and getting airtime. Have you ever noticed, though, that successful leaders never struggle with this idea of speaking up? In fact, in my experience in coaching, it seems like it’s quite the opposite. Successful leaders are focused on intent and precision in their communication. By intent, I mean that successful leaders don’t just speak to fill the air. Every word, question, and story has a purpose, whether it’s to inspire, clarify, or align. And by precision, I mean both brevity and clarity. I almost never hear more junior folks or less successful folks asking me about communicating with precision. But almost all the senior and successful folks highlight this as a key area where they wanna focus. Communicating with precision is a skill that they know they must attain. Now, before I get to the next point, I just wanna make something perfectly clear here. If you’re a junior person and you’re still earning your stripes, you’re still demonstrating the technical expertise, and you haven’t yet established your leadership brand, then by all means speak up. But if you’re in a formal leadership position in an organization, then I encourage you to shift your focus to communicating with intent and precision. So that’s the first thing. Successful leaders are less focused on speaking up and more focused on communicating with intent and precision.  Next-Level Listening The second way that successful leaders communicate differently than everyone else is their next-level listening. More junior people and maybe also the less successful senior folks. They might listen intently to their boss, but it’s only to know what their boss is looking for. They might also listen passively in meetings, politely waiting for their turn to talk. Meanwhile, successful leaders listen to understand, not to respond. They listen deeply for insights. They reflect back on what they hear, and they ask clarifying questions. The successful leaders I coach fully understand that they do not know it all. They understand that they have to listen deeply to their team members so that they can be well-informed and informed enough to make important decisions. So that’s the second thing. Let’s call it next-level listening.  Confidence Without Arrogance The third and last way that successful leaders communicate differently from everyone else is their ability to project confidence and credibility without arrogance. I’ve noticed a real pattern here when it comes to seniority and confidence. The more junior, early-career folks are typically focused on boosting their confidence. They talk about suffering from imposter syndrome, which, by the way is not a bad thing. This relates to the confidence of speaking up, doesn’t it? Which I just mentioned early in our careers we’re more likely to feel anxious and nervous. We know that building confidence is key. I rarely hear this from more senior folks, and particularly from these successful leaders. It’s like over the course of our careers, we evolve from anxious and nervous to more confident and sure. Some people tip the scales, and they become arrogant. These arrogant folks are the close-minded ones who think they know everything. But in my experience, this is rare. I can count the arrogant folks that I’ve coached. On one hand, interestingly, these three or four people all knew they were perceived as arrogant, but they deny it. Andrea, my boss, said that I can come across as arrogant, but really, I’m not arrogant. Okay, so here’s the thing to test. If you’re arrogant, if you worry that you might come across as arrogant. Then in all likelihood you’re not. It’s those folks who don’t worry about arrogance, who are arrogant, and if you’ve been told that you come across as arrogant, then, like I said, you probably are one thing I know for sure. Confidence is key to credible leadership. We are inspired to follow the confident, credible folks. I like to think of it as a continuum. On one end, we have paralyzing anxiety, the nervous folks. That is not good. On the other extreme, we have the arrogant folks. Also not good. In the middle, though, we have this beautiful equilibrium of perfect confidence. This is where successful leaders sit. And do you know what their secret is? What is it that keeps them at this perfect equilibrium? Not nervous and anxious, and not arrogant. It’s their growth mindset. Their focus on learning. If you’re focused on growing and learning, your anxiety will dissipate. And if you’re growing and you’re open-minded, you’re definitely not arrogant. So if you struggle with confidence, no matter what level or stage you are in your career, I encourage you to shift your mindset to focus on growing and learning. This means seeking feedback, truly listening, seeking growth and improvement. Ultimately, this can be what propels you to successful leader status, and that’s the third and last way that successful leaders communicate differently from everyone else. We covered three, of course. Three. Do you remember what they are? The three ways that successful leaders communicate differently than everyone else are: number one. Instead of focusing on speaking up in meetings and filling the air, successful leaders communicate with intent and precision. Two successful leaders are next-level listeners instead of passively listening. They listen to truly understand. And three successful leaders project confidence and credibility, and they maintain that beautiful equilibrium in terms of their confidence through what their growth mindset. Now that I’ve identified these ways that successful leaders communicate differently than everyone else, I see evidence in all three of them all the time. So I thought I had to share them with you. My challenge to you is to evaluate yourself on these three dimensions and identify where you can focus so you can get yourself one step closer to successful leader status.  Celebrating 200 Episodes & Top 3 Listener Favorites In case you’re wondering what the top three most downloaded episodes are of the 200, talk about talk episodes released to date. I’m really excited to share them with you now. Number three is called. Communicate with Confidence. Part I, preparing to communicate with confidence. It’s episode number 169. In this episode, I share strategies to help you prepare for those anxiety-inducing scenarios like giving a speech or leading a big meeting. I also share some of my own disasters on stage, and I think that might be one reason why that episode is so popular. The second most downloaded episode of all time is episode 154, called Five Quick Fixes to Improve Your Communication. Yes, it’s five, not just three. And yes, there’s a quick payout for listening to this one. I cover five things you can do that will make a big difference in your communication. The number one most downloaded talk about talk episode of all Time is an early episode that quickly became and remains the most downloaded episode. I’ve also rereleased this episode a few times, most recently as episode 170, 1-7-0, so you don’t need to scroll all the way down to the early episodes. This episode is called Introductions. How to Introduce Yourself. Why is this one so popular? Well, a few reasons. First of all, I know most of us feel some anxiety regarding our self-introduction, and with good reason. First impressions are important. This three-point framework that you’ll learn in this episode is easy to remember. It’s customizable in any context, and most importantly. It works. I hope you’ll listen to all three of these popular episodes. I’ll leave the titles and the episode numbers for these top three episodes at the top of the show notes so you can easily access them and listen to them. If you haven’t done so already, and whether you’re listening on Spotify or Apple, or maybe you’re watching Talk About Talk on YouTube. Please subscribe when you hit subscribe. It helps us get traction, and it helps you make sure that you don’t miss an episode. And that’s it for Talk About Talk episode number 200. Thanks again for listening. I hope you continue to find this podcast helpful in your quest to improve your communication skills and accelerate your career. Here’s to the next 200 episodes. Talk soon. The post Top 3 Communication Skills of Exceptional Leaders (ep. 200) appeared first on Talk About Talk.
• 5 Ways to Graciously EXIT a Networking Conversation (ep.199) 27.10.2025 8นาที

  Ever been stuck in a conversation at a networking event that feels a little too long? You’re not alone. In this short, practical episode, communication coach Dr. Andrea Wojnicki shares five graceful ways to exit a conversation politely without burning bridges. In this episode, you’ll learn: ✔️ How to transition smoothly by connecting people with someone else ✔️ Why the “food and drink” excuse still works (when used well) ✔️ How to tell someone you want to meet other people and still sound professional ✔️ The selfie trick that creates a natural exit and helps you remember names ✔️ How to be transparent and end any chat with confidence and warmth If you ever dread awkward endings, these strategies will help you handle them with tact and ease so you can keep your conversations (and your reputation) positive. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube TRANSCRIPTION Andrea Wojnicki: The next time I go to one of those awkward networking events, I am going to graciously thank the person for the connection and move on. Have you ever found yourself at one of those infamous networking events, and you’re going around and you’re meeting new people, and then suddenly you find yourself in a conversation that’s lasting a little too long? You probably have, you’re back to the wall, and someone’s firing questions at you and telling you their life story, and you’re thinking, I need to get out of this conversation. This context is awkward even for an extrovert like me. So in this episode of the Talk About Talk podcast, you are going to learn five creative, clever, and polite ways to graciously exit a networking conversation without burning bridges. The Awkward Networking Dilemma Are you ready? Okay. Let me start with a true story. This actually happened to me. I remember once I was at a networking event, there was a room full of powerful women, and I wanted to meet all of them. And I found myself, after about half an hour or so, engaged in a very intense conversation with one woman, and there was no one else around. And she was firing questions at me, and she was telling me her life story. And I remember thinking, I don’t want this conversation to go any further. I need to find a graceful exit. And you know what I did? I looked over her shoulder, and then you know what she said, Andrea, is there someone else you’d rather be speaking with? Is there somewhere else you’d rather be? And I actually thought to myself, Oh my gosh, this is like the networking event nightmare. I’m stuck talking to one person. I’m trying to figure out a graceful exit. And she actually calls me on it more on what I should have done in a moment. But first, let me introduce myself. Let’s do this. Let’s Talk About Talk. In case we haven’t met. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please just call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach at Talk About Talk, where I coach ambitious executives like you to improve your communication, your clarity. And your credibility so that you can achieve your career goals. If you’d like to learn more about me, I encourage you to go to talk about talk.com, where you can read all about me and all of the services that I offer. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. I spend lots of time there and I would love to hear from you. Okay, let’s do this. Five ways to graciously Exit Networking Conversations.  Connect Them with Someone Else Here’s the first one. Connect them with someone. This is actually what I should have said to that woman who asked whether I’d rather be talking to someone else. I should have quickly said. Actually, I just noticed a friend over here that I’d love to introduce you to, and that I should have grabbed her and pulled her over to a friend and introduced them, and then you have your way out, right? You’ve created a threesome and you’re the third wheel, so it’s time to leave. I’m not saying take the person you don’t want to talk to and introduce them to another unsuspecting victim. I am encouraging you to think about real positive connections that you can make. After all, this is a networking event. Use the Food or Drink Excuse You can do yourself and everybody else a favor by establishing connections. Okay, so that’s the first one. Connect them with someone else. The second one is the old food and drink excuse. Here’s what you do. You announce something like, Listen, I am famished. I haven’t had anything to eat all day. I’m gonna head over to the food table and fill my plate, and I’ll come find you later. And then you just leave. The other thing you could do is bring them with you, say. I notice you don’t have a glass of wine, or I notice you don’t have a cup of coffee. Let’s go over to the beverage center and help ourselves, and then bring them with you, and you’re bound to find other people along the way that you can meet with and talk. So that’s the second way. Announce you’re getting food and drink.  Be Honest About Networking Goals My third suggestion is to turn the conversation to networking and meeting people. This is actually about telling them why you’re there. You could ask them, So what’s your objective here? And they tell you, well, I wanna learn this, I wanna meet people. And you could say, listen, I really do too. I’m really trying to expand my network. So if you don’t mind. I’d love to exchange business cards or exchange LinkedIn connections. And then I’m gonna move on, and I’ll connect with you sometime later this week, and then you leave. So the secret here is being honest and telling them exactly why you’re at the event. You want to make as many connections as possible. You want to expand your network. Make sure you tell them that you’re gonna reconnect with them later. And then make sure you do always follow up. So we’ve already covered three of the five ways that you can graciously exit networking conversation. Do you remember what they are? Number one, connect them with someone. Number two, announce that you need food or a drink. And number three, focus on networking and tell them you’re trying to expand your network.  Take a Selfie Together The fourth way to graciously exit a networking conversation is to invite them to take a selfie with you. This is a great one that I haven’t heard before, but actually one of my clients who’s become a friend shared it with me. She said she finds herself in this situation all the time, and you know what she does? She says, I’ve met a lot of people tonight and I plan on meeting a lot more. So here’s what I’d love to do. Can I take a selfie with you? And if you’d like, I can send it to you, and that way we can exchange phone numbers or email addresses, however you’re sharing the photo. This is creative, and it establishes the connection and it gives you an out. So that’s the fourth thing. Invite them to take a selfie with you.  Just Be Transparent The fifth and last strategy is to just tell them. Be transparent. So there’s really two ways that you can do this. Depends on how confident you are. If you’re not feeling particularly confident, you could revert to suggestion number three, right? You could tell them, listen, I’m feeling really awkward about this, but I feel like I need to move on because my whole objective, my goal for this event, is for me to meet as many people as possible. So please don’t take this personally, but I’m gonna move on. It was lovely to meet you. And then close the loop with them, right? So that’s one way of doing it. The other way that you can do this was actually inspired by a woman who I met a couple of times at different events, at dinners and cocktail parties, and she was the master of this. She would spend three to five minutes chatting with me, getting caught up, and then she’d say, Listen, I need to make my rounds. So I just wanted to say it was fantastic to get caught up with you. I look forward to seeing you again soon, and I’m just gonna move on. And then she would go. And I remember consciously thinking to myself after she did this with me a couple of times at different events, like, wow, I really want to master that, that eloquence, that graciousness. She wasn’t making excuses, she wasn’t calling out the awkwardness, she was graciously telling me how lovely it was to see me again and that she was gonna move on, and then that’s what she did, and I didn’t feel in the bit slightest. This is my goal. The next time I go to one of those awkward networking events, I am going to graciously thank the person for the connection and move on. What’s your goal? Remember the next time you go to a networking event. If you find yourself in a conversation for a little bit too long with someone, try one of these five strategies. Number one, connect them with someone. Number two, the food or drink, excuse. Number three, tell them that you’re focused on networking and meeting as many people as possible. Number four, invite them to take a selfie with you. And number five, just be transparent. Okay. That’s it for this short episode of the Talk About Talk podcast. And yes, this is episode number 199. The next episode is a big deal. It’s gonna be episode number 200. I just wanna say thank you so much for listening to the Talk about Talk podcast. If you’re not subscribed already, please hit subscribe or follow on whatever platform you’re on, whether it’s Apple or Spotify, or YouTube. Where now, yes, you can watch the Talk About Talk podcast. Thanks again for listening and talk soon. The post 5 Ways to Graciously EXIT a Networking Conversation (ep.199) appeared first on Talk About Talk.
• How to Become a Bold, ASSERTIVE Communicator | Ivna Curi (ep. 198) 13.10.2025 42นาที

  How do you speak up with confidence without sounding aggressive? Leadership coach and TEDx speaker Ivna Curi shares how to find the balance between boldness and respect so your message lands with influence. In this episode, you will learn: ✔️ The important difference between aggression and assertiveness (hint: you want to be assertive!) ✔️ How the DESO framework helps you handle hard conversations ✔️ When apologetic language undermines credibility and when it builds trust ✔️ Ivna’s personal story of moving from people-pleaser to confident communicator Whether you lead teams, pitch clients, or want to be taken seriously in meetings, these strategies will help you speak boldly and be heard. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube CONNECT WITH IVNA CURI 🌐 Website: https://AssertiveWay.com 💼 LinkedIn: https://www.Linkedin.com/in/IvnaCuri/ 🎙️ Speak Your Mind Unapologetically Podcast: https://AssertiveWay.com/Podcast MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE 📖 Building A StoryBrand by Donald Miller: https://amzn.to/3IMAduF 📖 Atomic Habits by James Clear: https://amzn.to/48GtWuW 📖 Principles by Ray Dalio: https://amzn.to/4nrBnL3 📖 Acting With Power by Deborah Gruenfeld: https://amzn.to/3WhuoIF 🎧MORE HERE: Ivna interviews Andrea for her Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/how-to-identify-and-communicate-your-personal-brand/id1623647915?i=1000719522727   TRANSCRIPTION Ivna Curi: Speak to people in a way that makes them wanna hear your power in your delivery and that conviction, and then listen to people in a way that makes them want to speak to you.  Andrea Wojnicki: Are you an assertive communicator on a continuum from anxious to passive, to assertive, to aggressive? Where do you stand? Do you know what the important difference is between assertiveness and aggressiveness? Yes. We want to be assertive. No, we do not wanna be aggressive. But what exactly is the difference? In this episode of Talk About Talk, you are about to find out. Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. I’m your executive communication coach, Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please just call me Andrea. You can learn more about me on the TalkAboutTalk.com website. And please, if you’re not already, please subscribe or follow the Talk About Talk podcast on whatever platform you’re on. Spotify, Apple, YouTube, wherever you’re listening, hit subscribe, or follow. Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk. If you’re tuning into this episode, then I’m gonna guess that you could use some help with what we call self-promotion, a little help with feeling more bold and sounding more assertive and confident.  If you happen to be one of the lucky few for whom this does not resonate, maybe you’re already bold and assertive; well then, I encourage you to listen anyway. But from a different perspective. As a leader, chances are a significant proportion of the folks who you work with and who report to you have serious issues speaking up and being assertive as a leader; part of your job is to make sure that everyone’s voice is heard. We call this encouraging courage. I love that we encourage courage. Whether you’re an individual seeking more courage yourself, or maybe you are a leader, making sure everyone gets heard, you’re gonna wanna hear some of the insight from our guest expert today, Ivna Curi. About Ivna Curi I met Ivna on LinkedIn. She had me at bold, unapologetic, and assertive.  I knew the Talk About Talk listeners would wanna hear her message. Ivna leads practical workshops that empower leaders to navigate hard conversations with confidence, ultimately improving performance across teams. She’s also the host of the Speak Your Mind Unapologetically podcast, a TEDx speaker, a Forbes contributor, and the author of Unapologetic Voice. Here we go. Thank you for being here today, Ivna, to talk with us about using assertive language.  IC: Thank you for having me, Andrea.  The Power of Bold & Unapologetic Communication AW: Okay, so out of the gates, I’d love to start with some definitions. I noticed with your podcast and your TED Talk, and other things that you do on social media that you use the terms bold and unapologetic a lot, so I thought we would start there. What exactly do you mean when you say bold and unapologetic?  IC: And that’s a great question because a lot of people use those terms, and everybody seems to have a different definition of what bold and unapologetic means. And I actually use unapologetic a lot because it, people are very attracted to that. Uh, they love it. However, it is not what people think. Unapologetic and being bold is not venting off. Our frustration is not purely self-expression. It’s not just being authentic. It’s not being honest and blunt. What it is, is being able to express ourselves respectfully, so fully express ourselves, our thoughts, our ideas, our concerns, our boundaries, our perspectives, everything that we are, you know, those, those important conversations, our feedback in a respectful way with the purpose of influence.  So it’s not simply, let me just speak and get it out of my system. Right. And make myself heard, there’s a purpose there. There’s something that we want out of that conversation. There’s an element of influence on the other end. So it’s, it’s not about just saying whatever, or controlling other people. AW: So I heard two, I heard many things I love there, but I heard you say respectfully. Yes. And I think that’s really important too, ’cause I agree. It’s dangerous. I talk about building your personal brand unapologetically, but that doesn’t mean you’re just not being respectful and you’re not filtering. Right. So I think that’s important. And then you talked about with purpose or for with influence. So, I’m gonna start to think about that term, unapologetic, using those ideas as well. What about bold? How does bold fit in there?  IC: Bold means, and here’s something that happens a lot, a lot. I see a lot of people speak tentatively with hesitation so that they can be polite and kind and nice, and that’s the opposite of bold. Bold means speaking with conviction. Bold means speaking in a way that’s definitive, being decisive, not holding back, because we wanna be polite and make people comfortable. There are other tools to do that. There are other tools to be warm and build connection, but when it’s time to express our thoughts, our ideas, our concerns, our perspectives, we gotta be bold. We cannot try to be tentatively. Polite.  AW: So I heard you talking about this. I told you that I watched your TED talk, which I’m gonna link to in the show notes here and recommend men that everybody else watch it. But as I heard you speaking, even before you mentioned it, I thought of psychological safety. IC:  I’ve had 13 managers in my career before I took on a completely more entrepreneurial role, and the very best one of them for me that made the biggest impact for me in my career and my ability to be productive as well. Yes, he provided psychological safety, but he pushed me towards risk every single day in the world, the world beyond him, while I was interfacing with external vendors and supply chain client, angry customers. Other leaders in the organization, they were not happy, and they were not giving me safety. Now, my manager gave me safety when he would push me towards the world, the dangerous world out there, make me speak up, basically coach me through it, but not protect me. And then he would be a safe space for me to come back and say, I, this did not work. I struggled with this. How should I do better here? Amazing. And that’s how I was able to evolve and be still able to speak up and express myself in different situations and be more independent, be more autonomous, and grow and develop as a leader. You know how they say with children, sometimes overprotective helicopter parenting can be damaging to kids, and helicopter leadership can also be damaging if it’s excessive. And sometimes, as a leader, and I’ve been there, you, we feel like we’re the mom, we’re the dad. We gotta protect from everything, all bad things. We gotta protect our, our little children, our team from any struggles, any challenges, any difficulties, any hard conversations.  Psychological Safety and the Benefits of Assertive Leadership AW: So this is a nice segue, I think, to the benefits. So I’m hearing that for parents, it’s a good thing to encourage your children to take risks. For managers, it’s a good thing to encourage psychological safety and encourage your people to be bold and unapologetic. So, in the context of at work, what are the benefits of being bold and unapologetic?  IC: So being bold and unapologetic. As assertive communication. So respectful communication. Yeah, with influence is very powerful because especially in hard conversations, you know how transformational hard conversations can be. Mm-hmm. To relationships, to business, to productivity, that actually enhances the quality of collaboration. Because often when people are collaborating, there’s some people who tend who are naturally more passive, more quiet, and they tend to step back and avoid conflict, which means they’re always compromising. They’re compromising on their ideas, they’re compromising on their perspectives. And so that collaboration doesn’t work because the more dominant types are always, you know, getting their way, getting their point across. And we’re not leveraging the diversity of thought of that team, of that organization, to come up with the best ideas to problem solve, to innovate, because it’s not truly inclusive, because the communication in that meeting is not truly inclusive. But if there is an environment that has psychological safety to some extent and where people, there’s an environment that, a structured environment for participation, but also people are able to communicate in a mutually respectful way with influence. Then that problem-solving ability goes up, organization’s resilience goes up, conflict reduces significantly. People spend a whole lot of time, like about a month, a year, dealing with unproductive conflict. Festering conflict. So there and miscommunication gets reduced tremendously. And miscommunication is, is is a daily reality for most leaders. True.  AW: So I’m hearing a lot of the same benefits that accrue for psychological safety. Right? I feel like if you’ve created an environment where people can be bold and unapologetic, almost by definition, you have an environment of psychological safety, and so that’s why you wanna encourage those things. You mentioned that some people on your team are gonna be quieter and more passive, is what you said, right? So, to those people, what advice do you give them to encourage them to be more assertive?  IC: So, a couple of things. One of them, one of the things that people who are confrontation, avoidance, and just, focus a lot more on preserving their relationship than winning or getting their point across, is they also feel like they need to feel confident before they speak up. AW: Mm-hmm.  IC: They wanna be fearless and that’s just not the order of things. That’s not gonna magically happen out of the blue without speaking up or engaging in those conversations. They’re not going to start to speak up more because they’re they just suddenly became confident out of nowhere, right? That confidence comes with experience in doing something and skill. So I always encourage courage, and courage is something that we can also develop. To take that step beyond the comfort into a little bit of that risk, but in a measured, experimental way. Because people are often in their heads, and they project a fear and a consequence that’s much greater than reality. And when even if they speak up and things go in the wrong direction, and here’s what happens typically. People who tend to be more passive, right? So we have assertive, aggressive, passive, and passive-aggressive are the most common. And obviously it’s situational as well, but people have a tendency to be more passive and compromise and agreeable people pleasers, they’re scared, and they tend to, when they try to be more assertive, they tend to go too far into aggression because they don’t really know what they’re doing yet. And so when they go too far in aggression, people know them. As someone who’s, you know, always quiet and let, and letting others speak and agreeable, that causes some tension because people don’t understand, they haven’t seen this, this individual before speaking up like that. And they’re, they tend to be a little bit aggressive because they don’t know the techniques. So being able to get the manager support and saying, Hey, or put in the development plan, personal development plan, Hey, this is something that, a skill that I wanna develop. And getting the manager to support you along the journey, knowing that you will make mistakes, and it’s just part of the process. So you can get that feedback in terms of response from people. Think about what you’ve done well, what you could do better, and then try again, and the make that official so that people around you can support you in that mission is also critical. And then the last thing I’m gonna say is the skill piece. And when we don’t know how to speak up, obviously, the consequences of retaliation, backlash being seen as net, is difficult, as aggression go up. However, when we upskill ourselves, when we know what we’re doing. Yeah. And how to have these conversations and the frameworks to do so, especially the harder conversations, it de-risks that conversation and it increases our influence to achieve the outcomes, to make our message land in the other end. And when we increase the reward because people are here us to understand us, and they’re acting or responding the way we want them to respond because our influence went up and the risk goes down, then we naturally feel more inclined and more courageous and more confident to do that thing even more, which is speaking up. AW: So it can be like a sort of a vicious downward cycle. It’s like a positive upward cycle when you start to do it. So as you were describing that, even I was imagining a continuum where at one end you have people that are paralyzingly anxious, right? Yes. And then at the other end, you have aggression, and in the middle you may have an equilibrium of the ideal level of assertiveness. Does that sound kind of right?  IC: Yes. And the thing that most people confuse with, like they think that it’s a bit of a personality trait, but it’s something that can be very much learned and taught. I’m naturally very passive. I avoid confrontation. I am a people pleaser. When you talk about brand, the brand I had for my, the first 10 years in my career was nice. Yeah. That was the word that people used to describe me, and I had to put in an intentional effort to develop and understand how to communicate with respect, with, yes, with kindness and empathy, but also with a bit boldness. Right. And influence to get that message across.  AW: Yeah. So you said this, there’s this common pattern of folks that are a little bit more passive. When they try to become assertive, they may jump past assertiveness to become aggressive. What exactly is the difference between assertiveness and aggressiveness? Assertive vs. Aggressive: Finding the Balance IC: And that’s crucial for people to understand. Yeah. Because they get this wrong all the time. Yeah. So philosophically, it’s around control and aggressive. When we’re communicating aggressively, we’re trying to control others.  And their behavior when we are assertive. We control ourselves. We’re controlling our communication so that we can influence others. AW: Back to the influence. Okay.  IC: Back to the influence. And so that manifests in many different ways because sometimes a lot of people, a couple things that don’t have influence. Right. That tend to be a more aggressive, very typical, in assertive training, you always find this, which is the I language versus the U language. People use this all the time. Yeah. In aggressive communication, the very subtle things that we say, Hey, you hurt my feelings. There’s like a client that came to me and said, I was super assertive Ivna, you would be so proud of me. I had, I arranged this meeting with this person who had changed my slides last minute, all this, and I told them, you hurt my feelings. I had to break it to them. Like, listen, you were courageous. That’s beautiful. I’m so glad you took initiative and you had the conversation. But the reality is that, you know, you hurt my feelings, is can be seen as very aggressive as opposed to when this happened. You know, I felt this or this action that you did impacted me in this way. AW: This way, right  IC: This way. Or another one that I see all the time is people say, you know, you made me feel disrespected or you disrespected me. Right? It sounds okay, but it’s actually, it can come across as very aggressive and judgmental, and it lacks evidence, and it’s not constructive. So there’s many different little subtle things that we say in our language that can come across as aggressive if we’re not careful. And it’s definitely not influential, right? Right. Making someone putting, making someone defensive is not going to increase our influence. When people are asking others to change behavior, and this, most people don’t, they’ll complain, but they won’t. They won’t talk about the thing that they want different, that, that to change, right? The requests, they’ll never bring that up. And when they do. It’s something like, you know, stop being disrespectful or stop interrupting me, or, I don’t like this. Versus a future-oriented, constructive invitation. Mm-hmm. To change something. Yeah. Little subtle things that make a huge difference, and I could spend a whole hour just on. These, these differences and how they manifest in our communication.  AW: So one, one clear one that I heard there was saying I instead of you. Yeah. And then there’s, there’s also the one that’s a little bit closer to that, which is when you do, this is how I feel. Which might be okay. Right. But what are, are there any other little tactical tweaks that you can share in terms of our language that will keep us in the assertiveness realm and out of the aggression realm? IC: So the deso or the desk script are very famous for assertive communication, having hard conversations. The one that I teach is a version. That goes beyond that. It has a few more elements so that it can be a, it, it can vary and be adjusted based on, uh, the power dynamics, based on personality, based on how strong a relationship you have with that person, and all those other elements based on. You know, something that I see a lot like women struggle sometimes. A younger woman, maybe with an older man in, in those different elements. But the basic assertiveness script that can really help for these conversations is called DESO or DESC Script.  AW: Yep.  IC: So D is for describe the situation. You know, I noticed, in these meetings, I’m getting interrupted a lot, or I’ve been interrupted three times in the last five team meetings. The more specific we can get, the better, versus saying things like, you are always late, or you always interrupt me, or you never do this. The second step is explaining your sentiment or your feelings, or in a business context, it’s much better to talk about expressing the impact of someone’s actions on us or the team, or the client or the customer. It’s a lot more professional than just talking about our feelings. Yeah.  AW: In the context of being productive and meeting certain objectives.  IC: So that’s where the, when this happened, is the context, you know, I felt this, or the impact of this action was, their team lost, didn’t feel psychologically safe to express their thoughts, and we didn’t get enough discussion around this.  Then the S stands for specifying our request. I like to call that an invitation because a request, sometimes people can  feel like it’s a act as if it’s a demand, and we don’t want that. We want it to really feel like an invitation. So the invitation is forward-looking, and a great way to start this is, hey, going forward, because then people are more amenable to that versus the past is more blame-oriented. Hey, going forward, I would appreciate if you, you know, you let Sally or others in the team speak before sharing your ideas. Since you’re superior to them and they might feel threatened to speak otherwise. And the last one is O for outcomes or C for consequences, which is giving people a reason to accept the invitation, right? That way, we can make sure that we get the most collaboration out of the team. We get the most ideas before we make a decision. Right? Then getting at some level of confirmation. Does that work with you? Are you good with that? Agree. And then closing with the relationship. Once again, Hey, thank you so much for making the time to talk about this. I really appreciate your collaboration. And then you’re done.  AW: Yep. And you sound confident and clear. You are not being aggressive. Right. And you’re trying to meet everybody’s business objectives and everyone’s personal objectives. Yeah.  IC: Yeah. And you’re in control. You have the influence to being respectful. You have the framework, so you know the key points you wanna make. That allows you to not to make sure that they don’t derail you. Yeah. If things don’t get overly emotional.  AW: Yeah.  IC: So it’s very easy, very thoughtful,  AW: And you know that I love a framework Ivna, right? Like I know you, you’re not talking about It’s not, yeah. It’s not a script, it’s a framework, and you can fill in the blanks and you’ll sound great. And it’s easy to remember. I love it. Okay, so on this continuum from aggressiveness to assertiveness, and here we have this kind of passive apologetic maybe. Is it ever, okay, so I’m sure you get this question from your clients, like sometimes, isn’t it okay to use apologetic language or weak language?  IC: And I get in my workshops, I get a lot of pushback on this because the group usually is primarily passive. And, you know, and I’m encouraging, and some of them say, Hey, you know, here in the south, that’s, that’s what we do. You know, we, we, we ask for permission for everything, right? We apologize for everything. And I get it. There are cultural nuances at the same time, in a workplace context, it’s very different. If you’re in the bakery and you know, there’s someone in front of you and you cut, I mean, there’s a, it’s just a different situation. It’s a different situation. If you’re talking to a superior and, you know, pitching an idea. Versus talking to a direct report and trying to make them feel safe and showing vulnerability. So it’s all about being intentional with that. Generally. We also wanna role model for our teams that they can be bold. That’s okay to be bold, and it’s important to role model that as well.  AW: Yeah. They’re watching you. Right? They’re watching.  IC: They’re watching you both on the vulnerability, but also on being bold. Yeah. With your ideas. So being able to express ourselves, our ideas, our thoughts, our concerns, set the boundaries, whatever that is, self-expression that is respectful is, no apologies for that. AW: Right?  IC: No apologies whatsoever. Yeah. Now, where does it make sense? Okay, well, we make it a mistake. Even then I would, I would be cautious about. When to issue an apology, when to talk about an apology, and when to position that in a different way for which is, for example, acknowledging the impact of our actions on others and that at least for me, it would feel so much better if someone is expressing, not just saying sorry, because it feels empty.  AW: Mm-hmm. Yeah.  IC: And lacks meaning if there’s not a demonstration of understanding of empathy towards the impact that person’s mistake had on me, on my team.  AW: Right.  IC: And an intent to change things going forward. Right. That is way more powerful than just saying, sorry. Yeah.  AW: I know there’s this formula that I’ve seen a million times on social media about when you’ve done something wrong and you know you need to apologize. You go up to the person, you say, I apologize for, you label what it is that you did. Then you describe, as you said, what the negative impact was that you understand, and then you say, here’s what I’m gonna do, going forward. So you’re saying if I had to skip step one. Not, not hear the, I’m sorry. And I just had step two and three. I would be fine with that. In fact, I’d be better off. I get it. Yeah.  IC: Better off. Yeah. I don’t care about the, sorry, apologize part. Yeah. Just show me that you’re committed to make things different and that you understand my perspective. AW: Yeah. So I thought you were gonna go in a different direction with this, and so I wanna just share this conversation that I had with a senior client of mine. She was running for CEO of her organization, and we were talking about her communication plan, ’cause she needed to make sure she had all the stakeholders who would, who were, had input onto the decision of who the CEO was, including a board of directors and some of the senior, existing senior executives in the organization. And she said they are very diverse, and some of them are very old school. Very hierarchically thinking, and I am the only woman contender for the CEO position, so I need to be very strategic about how I’m communicating with these folks. Never mind the gender dynamic itself. Like, never mind, like, how do I bring up the fact that I’m the only woma,n or do I bring that up? Right? There’s the whole point of how I talk. And so we, we actually created a strategy where we wouldn’t call it apologetic language, but it was more like she would use language where she’s deferring power to the other person because that’s what they expected. And again, this is, you used the word intentionality. She was very intentional about it, and she definitely comes across as a bold woman and a confident woman. But she said sometimes that can backfire. So I was just, that’s where I thought you were headed. So let’s go to the other end of the spectrum. I wanna ask you, have you ever had clients or even people in workshops who are like arrogant and like beyond aggressive. They’re just like, well, they’re probably aggressive and arrogant. Have you ever come across that?  IC: They do happen, but they don’t happen often. I come across a lot more people that have the poor me victim mentality, and that’s probably harder to deal with. The arrogant types. There are people who resist feedback, and change initially, but they tend to open up and under and understand a different perspective. So I haven’t, uh, I haven’t seen truly like arrogant people. Now, arrogant people like most other of these, you know, the, these, this dysfunctional waste of communicating. They come from insecurity, from wanting to protect themselves, from wanting to command. I’ve had clients say, I wanna keep my edge so people respect me. Yeah. Wow. So Wow.  AW: They don’t, I haven’t heard that one. I haven’t heard that one, but I can imagine you haven’t heard I, yeah,  IC: Yeah. Like how do I keep my edge? And so what they don’t understand is that there’s, you know, I have actually whole talk about this, which is speak boldly, connect openly. Mm-hmm. I speak to people in a way that makes them wanna hear your power, your delivery and that conviction. And then listen to people in a way, in a way that makes them want to speak to you. And when you combine those and you’re able to know when to use each one and how to combine them together in important conversations, then you do not lose your edge.  AW: Yeah.  IC: But you do not, you’re also not controlling people. Right. People are there with you because they want to be with you.  AW: Yeah. I love that. I love that. So in the vocabulary that I use, I would say communicating with conviction and credibility. Also, having a growth mindset and genuinely being interested in what other people are saying because you have a true belief that your collaboration is gonna be more effective than you just telling them what it’s not. You’re not delivering a monologue, right? You’re sharing your thoughts, and then you’re listening to their thoughts, so you can come up with the best solution or decision or whatever it is. I love that. Okay. Is there anything else before I get to the three rapid-fire questions, Ivna, that you wanna share? I guess the ultimate question is for the folks that are erring on the side of being apologetic or not assertive enough, so that they can land, they can maybe move along this continuum a little bit closer to the ideal level of bold and assertive communication. IC: I am extremely passive by nature. I’m socially anxious people pleaser. That is my, that’s who I am. My tendency, however, I felt like that was my strategic strength in the past. We talk about identities. We talked about brand. I actually thought that was part of my brand. I’m just like an easygoing collaborator. That’s who I am. Once I found the other side of, once I found the real me, nobody is authentically passive people pleaser. That’s not you. Everyone is assertive. I just haven’t hadn’t found it yet. Once I found assertive evening, oh my gosh. I’m never turning back, ever, because this evening feels empowered, feels free, feels happy. I attract the right people to my world. I can actually command people’s attention when before I couldn’t, and my self-confidence and my self-worth, we talked about self-worth all went up. Yeah, this is the real me.  AW: Oh, I love it. So people pleasers are not pleasing themselves. It’s  IC: I apologize for not them, they’re not pleasing themselves. Yeah. That’s not who you are. Yeah. Gotta break free and be willing to experiment. I’m all, I’m very big in social experiments, in a controlled way with the support. Try new things, figure out, learn some of these frameworks, learn how to do things so that you make fewer mistakes, how people respond, adjust, try again and people who are people pleasers tend to catastrophize the consequences of speaking up a lot more than reality.  So when you start to get that real feedback loop from the environment you’re in and people starting to respond positively to your speaking up moments, that’s going to give you tremendous confidence, courage to start finding that new, more powerful version of yourself.  Wrap-Up & Rapid-Fire Questions AW: Amazing. You will be quoted on that. Okay. You ready for the three rapid-fire questions? I am. Question number one: Are you an introvert or an extrovert, and how does that affect your communication?  IC: So I am introverted, introverted, socially anxious, and a people pleaser. So that was me. However, none of that is static. So, when we start to expose ourselves to the thing that is uncomfortable or different, we enjoy it. When I go to conferences, I enjoy meeting new people and talking to them, but do I like to stay at home and do in solo walks? Absolutely.  So it’s something that we can evolve into. Now, what I do say is a lot of people just don’t understand the differences between all of those things. Yeah. It’s important to understand a little bit of that, a little bit of psychology, so that we can not think that that is who we are and we can’t change that, or that it’s gonna somehow hurt us.  AW: Right. A lot of people have a negative association with introversion, and I say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It is not a judgment. It is a way of being, and introverts typically are the best listeners. And it doesn’t mean that you are also socially anxious. You can, you know, go, like you said, go to the networking event and get out there and on stage like you’ve done. It’s just gonna take more energy, and you can manage your energy, right? Like this is a different construct than I think a lot. A lot of people think that introversion means you’re paralyzingly shy and you can’t be around people. No, no, no, no, no.  IC: Right. Simon Sinek is introvert.  AW: A lot. A lot of incredible teachers are actually, yes. Okay. Question number two. What are your communication pet peeves?  IC: One of the things a co, there’s a couple of them. One of them is really polite people. They drive me crazy because. I can’t get a good conversation. I can’t move when their politeness is disguising what they’re really thinking, and it kills conversation. It kills the ability to find mutual value, which is what I’m always looking to explore. And so I’d rather someone be, I’d, honestly, I’d rather have someone be blunt and unpleasant than politely. Not say anything. Yeah. Politely. Boring substance. Yeah. Politely boring.  AW: I bet. Doesn’t I have a hypothesis? I bet that as people are listening to this episode, they’ve got someone in their mind that they know I know someone. Very well actually, who is very polite and often during and always after my conversations with her, I always think she’s so polite, and I don’t, I have no idea what’s going on in her head. I have no idea. Right. I love that. Okay. Is what else? Any other pet peeves?  IC: Yes, yes. So something that I’ve been experiencing a lot, and maybe you do too. From these people who call themselves who, who broadcast how nice they are, how servant leaders they are, how kind they are to people, and they ghost me. Like there’s no tomorrow what? They ghost, ghost, ghost, ghost, ghost, ghost, ghost. And I’m okay. I think there are circumstances where, you know, we, we, it’s fine to ghost people. That’s okay, but I’m talking about. Like, we’ve had several interactions and you’re still ghosting me. Hmm. And it is a pet peeve ’cause it upsets me. However, one of the things that assertive people do, and I keep reminding myself, is to take responsibility for things. We have the power to influence communication with other people, even if they’re not being assertive. So in all these instances, if someone’s being overly polite and expressing themselves, and if they’re ghosting me, I always have the ability to respectfully, with the right kind of questions, the right kind of action, the right kind of attitude, consistently open people up, and that’s very empowering. AW: I’ve heard, I have to tell you, I’ve heard this theme. Being ghosted as a pretty common pet peeve. Recently, I’d say in the last year, four or five people have told me that this is their pet. Oh, really? Pet peeve. Yeah. Yeah. Seems like it.  And there, there are we and we, I ended up getting this conversation with, with one person expert that I was interviewing, and I admitted that I used to respond to every email and LinkedIn message that I got from anyone. And then I realized so many of the unsolicited emails were coming to me, and I just, I couldn’t do it. And someone said to me, you do not need to respond to unsolicited sales pitches. Yes. That is not ghosting someone. So, you clarified when you were just talking about being ghosted, you’re not talking about pitching someone for the first time. AW: No. You’re talking about an, you know, like a, a dialogue that suddenly stopped. Right? Yeah.  IC: You’ve had 3, 4, 5 interactions. Yeah. You had meetings, you spent one hour together, three hours. You’re not asking, you’re not pitching anything. Mm-hmm. Explicitly. But people are scared of you. Yeah, they’re scared of us. They’re scared when people ghost. Here’s what my interpretation of it: they’re scared of their own reaction. Inability to handle a conversation. They can’t say no. They don’t know how to say no. They don’t know how to say, well, I have concerns. They don’t know how to express or even think through, and talk about. What’s bothering them? So insecure.  AW: Well, and that gets to your point of how to, how you can, as a communication expert, make your question a way that will help them get over that. So, okay. Rapid question number three. Is there a book or a podcast that you find yourself?  IC: I have to recommend my own podcast. AW: Yeah. To start with, there’s a link there. There will be a link to it in the show notes. Yes.  IC: So speak your Mind Unapologetically podcast and actually listen to myself. As a reminder, because I do have to remind myself sometimes of what I teach. Yeah. So when I go on walks every now and then, or if I’m in the plane traveling somewhere, yeah. I’ll put it on my own podcast and listen to what I have to say.  AW: I think that’s really, that is really smart. I sometimes, when I haven’t heard myself for a while, I go back and I listen as well, partly because I want to keep improving. But you also wanna remember certain like frameworks or whatever you were teaching. IC: Now I’m like, oh wow, that was really smart. That’s awesome.  AW: I like that. That’s good. That’s good. I love that you admit that on the podcast episode. I do, I do. I’m, oh, I like that. What else? What else is in your podcast feed that you recommend?  IC: I’m gonna give you books. Yep. Okay. So we talked about. Branding. I love the book. Building a StoryBrand, uh, gives a great understanding of how to build that, that, that, it just gave me really a lot of, a lot to think about. Atomic Habits was a great book, and I think about building habits around communication skills as well, and that came from that book. It’s a great book. Principles from Ray Dalio. Love Ray Dalio. Bold man. Bold thinker. If you want to have some bold thoughts on how to approach things and culture, and organization. Yeah, I really like that book. Acting With Power by Deborah Greenfield, also. Great book. I haven’t heard of that one. A Stanford professor. Okay. Really studied the whole power dynamic thing and how do you act with power, especially as a woman in a work environment. AW: Amazing. So I’m gonna put links to all of those books in the show notes. Is there anything else that you wanna leave the Talk About Talk listeners with in terms, in terms of cultivating the ideal level of assertive, bold, unapologetic communication?  IC: Yeah. So embrace the process of getting there. It’s not, it doesn’t happen overnight. Surround yourself with assertive people or bold people, and that is a bit contagious as well. Uh, often when we’re not bold, we don’t feel comfortable around bold people, but I encourage you to surround yourself with that kind of people so that you can see how it works and the kind of results that it lead, it creates, and how people respond by observation, and that’s going to naturally cultivate that desire to discover how you can, and there’s no more authentic thing than being able to express ourselves fully in any environment.  So that should lead the way. Figure out what’s most important to you and make sure that, and, and focusing on the goals that you have, the dreams is going to help overcome the fears of being able to speak up, so focus a lot on the dreams as well. Those were my little tips. AW: Very inspiring. Thank you so much, Ivna. I really enjoyed the conversation and getting to know you. Thank you.  IC: Thank you so much, Andrea. AW: Thanks again to Ivna. Okay. The first thing I wanna say, did you catch the difference between assertiveness and aggressiveness? I think this is important.  Aggressive is control of others. Assertive is controlling ourselves and expressing ourselves.  One of the simplest ways to do this is simply to say, I, not you. I have something to add. I wanna share something important. I love this disciplined focus on assertiveness versus aggressiveness. We all want to be assertive, and we want to encourage it in others. Before I let you go, I also wanna highlight the DESO or DESC framework that Ivna mentioned. This was a new framework for me. As you probably know, if you follow me here on the Talk about Talk podcast or on LinkedIn or if you subscribe to my newsletter, you know I love a good framework. It’s not a script, it’s a guideline or a prompting sequence that you can customize and optimize for your context. This DESO or DESC framework will help you when you need to be assertive. It’s describe, explain, specify the consequences or outcome. So you describe the situation, then you explain or express the impact. Then you specify or invite the other person to hear a message, to make a change. And last, you clarify the consequence or the outcome. This is the impact. Sticking to this framework will help you sound confident, concise, and yes, assertive. I love this framework, Ivna. Thank you so much for our inspiring conversation. I don’t know about you, but I’m feeling encouraged about being courageous. If you enjoyed this episode, please hit subscribe, and if you’re interested in learning more about how to optimize your communication at work so you can show up with confidence and credibility, then I encourage you to check out the TalkAboutTalk.com website. There are lots of communication skills, resources for you there. Thanks for listening and talk soon. The post How to Become a Bold, ASSERTIVE Communicator | Ivna Curi (ep. 198) appeared first on Talk About Talk.
• Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos & the Secret to Unforgettable Communication | Carmine Gallo (ep. 197) 29.09.2025 50นาที

  How do top leaders captivate audiences and drive action? Carmine Gallo distills the communication habits behind Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos into practical moves you can use right away. From minimalist slides to memo-driven meetings, and from relatable stories to memorable metaphors, this episode shows how to simplify, persuade, and be heard. In this episode, you will learn: ✔️ Why simplicity signals confidence and increases retention ✔️ How to wrap data in a narrative so people care and remember ✔️ The Amazon rule that replaced slides with written memos ✔️ How to manage nerves with deliberate rehearsal under pressure ✔️ A simple structure to avoid the curse of knowledge. Start at the top Whether you lead teams, pitch clients, or present to executives, these strategies will help you communicate with clarity and credibility. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/ 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ ✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube CONNECT WITH CARMINE GALLO 🌐 Website: carminegallo.com 💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carminegallo/ MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE 📖 Talk Like TED by Carmine Gallo: https://amzn.to/3N9Fgn2 📖 The Bezos Blueprint by Carmine Gallo: https://amzn.to/4gpDaOi 📰 Carmine’s Columns on Inc.: https://www.inc.com/author/carmine-gallo 🎙️ Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard: https://armchairexpertpod.com/ TRANSCRIPTION Carmine Gallo: We’re all storytellers. We’re wired for story. It’s how we process the world through narratives and stories. It’s the way we communicate information, mostly through stories, not bullet points on a slide.  Andrea Wojnicki: If you wanna communicate like the world’s top leaders, then you’ll love this episode with Carmine Gallo, bestselling author, storytelling guru, and expert communication coach. We’ll reveal storytelling secrets from Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos, and break down how you can craft stories that connect, persuade, and stick.  Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk. I’m Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please call me Andrea. This is Talk Sbout Talk, the podcast where I help you communicate with confidence. I also write a newsletter. We’ll put a link to that in the description.  About Carmine Gallo After years of following Carmine Gallo, I finally connected with him on the Inc. Magazine Slack channel of all places. Yes, we’re both columnists for Inc.Magazine. I’ll leave links by the way to his and my articles in the show notes too. Thank you so much for being here today, Carmine, to talk with me and the Talk About Talk listeners about communication skills.  CG:  Well, thank you for inviting me. I think one of the reasons why I like your approach is because, unless I’m mistaken, it comes from an academic research background, doesn’t it? Didn’t you get a, uh, you got a PhD from the Harvard Business School?  AW: I did. I got a doctorate of business administration, uh, with a major in marketing.  CG:  Yeah. So I shared the perspective of putting things into contacts and sharing ideas that we can back by research and data. These aren’t just opinions, but everything we talk about is really backed by the latest science, which is always cool. I think we come from different perspectives. Obviously, I’m not from an academic background, but we probably reach similar conclusions.  AW: Yes. And I know from reading most, if not all of your books, Carmine, that you do a ton of research for your books, whether it’s interviews or counting things in various Ted Talks, which we’re gonna get into. CG: Excellent. I see some of my books on your bookshelf. Yes. You, you a smart, you’re a smart podcast host.  Secrets of the World’s Best Communicators AW: Yeah, that’s the image I’m trying to portray here. Carmine. Okay. So. I have so many questions that I wanna ask you, but I really wanna start with this one, which is, I know based on your books and your writing and your articles that you’ve studied, many of the world’s greatest communicators, including Ted speakers, including Jeff Bezos, including Steve Jobs, and on and on and on. So I wanna start there. What do these incredible speakers have in common? Maybe what surprised you about them? Who stands out for you as the number one speaker in your mind?  CG: In my opinion, still the world’s greatest brand storyteller was Steve Jobs. He brought a completely new dimension to presentations. His presentations were like theatrical performances. They were fun and engaging and interesting and entertaining. So I wrote the first book on how Steve Jobs gave these awe-inspiring presentations.  That’s where I really started getting into the research, trying to talk to people who had worked side by side with Steve Jobs or who were in the practice and rehearsal rooms when he was getting ready for these huge keynote presentations, like the launch of the iPhone in 2007 and some of the other iconic presentations.  AW: Can I just add, I’m so glad to hear you say that because I teach a lot of workshops on communication skills, and there’s a series that I’ve been doing for some physicians, some healthcare workers, and on the set, the workshop that we do focused on formal presentations, I ask them to watch that 2007 presentation, ’cause I think it is iconic as well. I’d love to hear maybe what you think stands out about that in terms of his preparation and delivery.  CG: I’ll tell you what they all have in common. The great Ted speakers, Jeff Bezos and Steve Jobs. Getting back to one of your questions, and this will answer the Steve Jobs one too, it’s, he had the courage, they all had the courage to keep it simple. Minimalism. When we talk about minimalism right now, it’s more about product design, or when you walk into an Apple store or a luxury store, it’s minimal, more white space, fewer products. Well, you can also apply that to presentations. So if you look at that, Steve Jobs’ presentation. There’s one picture on a slide. One photo, one image, two words. You, there are no slides. That Steve Jobs probably ever delivered, you know, maybe decades earlier. There are no slides with just text and bullet points. It’s an image and minimal text, or just an image that takes a little courage. That’s what I mean by having the courage and the confidence to keep things simple. Simple meaning everything from the words you use. Less jargon, more familiar language, all the way to the presentation itself, if you are using slides or visual materia,l to have the confidence to tell the story and let PowerPoint complement the story, but the slide should complement the story first. Does that make sense? You are the storyteller, not the slides.  AW: Absolutely. Yeah. So. As you were answering that question, Carmine, you made me think about something that I wasn’t planning to ask you, but I wanna get your opinion on this. I have this theory that a lot of us, maybe even most of us, make a lot of mistakes because of our generosity. We think that the audience needs to know everything that we know about the topic, right? So then we end up losing focus, which is kind of your point here, right? So, I have this saying that I say to my clients, which is the most generous communicators, ironically, are more precise and more focused, and they’re sharing less quantity. CG: Again, I mentioned something in the beginning that we’re reaching similar outcomes from different perspectives. I’ll tell you a story that I learned from the TED Talk organizers, but it doesn’t have to do with generosity; but it’s saying the same thing. Okay.  So when I was writing a book on the on TED Talks that talk like TED, the organizers of the TED Conference, tover some 30 years have learned that when a speaker is invited to give a TED Talk, whether it’s 10 minutes or at the max 18 minutes, the speaker often asks in, in frustrated, in a real frustrated tone, how can I possibly tell the audience everything I know in 18 minutes? You can guess what the answer is. AW: We don’t wanna know everything that you know. We just wanna know the one thing, right? CG: Exactly. What’s the big picture theme? Then you can fill in some details, but the point is never in any presentation really, to tell people everything you know. It’s to tell the audience what they need to know at that time. Depending on the audience, depending on your intended outcome. Then presentations and public speaking become so much simpler, and don’t try to condense everything, you know, select what the audience needs to know. You mentioned generosity, so let’s unpack that a little bit. I feel like I’m gonna turn the interview on you because I hadn’t thought about it that way, and I think it’s an interesting way to think about it. AW: So, Carmine, I go back and look at some of the early newsletters that I was writing for my Talk About Talk audience, you know, six years ago. And I’m like, wow, I just was giving them everything. Every week. They were getting this huge volume. Was frankly a bit scattered, but I know in my mind that I had the best intentions. I wanted to teach them everything that I could, and I realized over time that being more focused is really the generous thing to do. Yeah. I like, I like that approach.  CG: Interesting way of looking at it.  AW: Yeah, I think it was, you know, the lesson was from me looking back at my past work and seeing my mistakes. CG: You know, I use the word courage at the beginning of this. Uh, I think everything we’re talking about, advanced communication, persuasion, does take a little courage. At least you gotta build up your confidence because if you’re not confident, let’s say you just got outta grad school, you have a business degree. Wanna tell everybody how smart you are? You want everyone to know how smart you are. And then as you progress through a career and you see people who reach the top who are extraordinary speakers, they tend to do what we’re recommending here, which is holding back on a lot of information and only giving the audience the information they need to know.  They’re much more selective than people who just enter the workforce because they’re already confident in their role. They don’t need to prove anything to anybody. So it does take a, build that confidence early before you’ve been in a career for 40 years. AW: So, that is a different way of looking at it. Right. Maybe six years ago, I didn’t have the confidence as a communication coach that I now have, where I’m like, I know the, and also, the more you know, the more you know you don’t know. Right? Of course.  CG: Yes. Yeah. Then I think that’s a big part of it too. I’m only half joking, but I think it does take a little confidence to be simple. It takes confidence to deliver a PowerPoint presentation and not have a hundred words on a slide or eight bullet points and just have one picture. Uh, yeah, that takes a little confidence, but I’m not, I never ask anyone to completely blow up their PowerPoints, but within the culture that you’re in, within the corporate culture that you’re in, if most PowerPoints are really wordy and cluttered, see what happens when you insert a couple of PowerPoint slides that are completely opposite, and then you can kind of go back to the others. But see what happens. Try experimenting counter culture. Building Confidence & Overcoming Nerves AW: I love it. So I wanna drill down on the confidence topic. A lot of the folks that I coach experience imposter syndrome, or they talk about anticipating feeling nervous and anxious before they go out on stage, either to lead a big meeting or to give a presentation. What are some of the hacks or maybe mindsets that you share with people to boost their confidence?  CG: It’s tough. Yeah. You’re supposed to be. Anxious about public speaking. So I think that’s the first thing. And I’m sure you’ve talked about this before, which is it’s natural. It doesn’t help a lot to say that, but when you talk to neuroscientists and cognitive scientists, you should be nervous. Uh, because our, you all, Noah Harari has written about this, the famous historian, I’ve interviewed him once, but he was talking about how, uh, storytelling and communication skills were all important as we developed as a species, uh, because people could rally around a leader, a story, and uh, and share stories. So anyway, we were having a whole conversation about storytelling, and then we got into this whole topic of, well, people are nervous, public speaking, and you’ve all said, yeah, you’re supposed to be, it’s mission critical. It’s from an evolutionary standpoint that you are liked by the tribe. If you were not accepted, you were banished outta that cave and that wasn’t a good outcome. So to him it was like, yeah, so it’s natural. You’re, it’s, you’re supposed to be that way. So I kind of think that’s the first step. It’s like, yeah, okay. Acknowledge it. It’s a yes. This is a thought that’s coming through my head. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It’s there and it should be because I’m excited and, and I wanna share my ideas and I, yeah, I want to get them across. But can I tell you before we leave this topic, there’s only one tactic on that I’ve come across that works. Terms of alleviating stress. And it’s the same tactic that professional athletes use before the big game, uh, or that law enforcement or military or anyone who actually has to execute something under high pressure. They practice that skill thousands of times. I thought you were gonna say deep breathing. Carmine deep breathing. Actually, we could talk about this for the whole podcast, but deep breathing is a part of it. The Navy Seals use deep breathing to get their fear under control. So I’ve actually talked to seals about breathing exercises, but that’s a part of the training and preparation. The point is they practice for it. They practice getting nervous. They practice putting themselves in high stress situations that they’re not familiar with. So I think the problem that most of us have when it comes to feeling anxious about. Speaking is because we’re doing something that we haven’t done a thousand times, and if you don’t practice and you don’t rehearse and you don’t put yourself under some kind of stressful situation. You just worry for three weeks ahead of your PowerPoint. Yeah. You’re gonna be worried about it. Okay.  AW: Yeah. Yeah. So, I’ve told a story of when I was in my twenties and I worked at Kraft Foods and I had to give this big presentation at the national sales meeting, and, and I completely bombed. I was shaking and I’m sweating, holding my script or whatever. And then, yeah. So thankfully I independently made a decision that is never gonna happen again, and how am I gonna get over it? Is by volunteering every opportunity that I have to practice.  CG: So at that time, whether that was intentional or not, or whether it was a conscious thing, you were going through those steps that, uh, and a professional athlete, uh, you know, or high-performance athlete goes through, so they don’t get nervous when the pressure is on. You practice and you had practice games, you had a lot of them. Yeah. I honestly believe that’s one of the few tactics that works because it’s like any skill. The more you do almost anything, you get more comfortable at it. But very few of us give a presentation in front of a board 10 times a day. Of course, you’re gonna be uncomfortable, so you do need to put in that practice time and if deep breathing exercises help you and they should help you incorporate that into like your practice sessions. Go through some deep breathing, then rehearse out loud, maybe in front of a friend or two.  AW: Add a little attention to it. Make it as realistic as possible. I love it. I love it. I’m gonna be thinking about you next time, Carmine, when I’m rehearsing a keynote. So you’ve mentioned storytelling a few times, and I know you’ve written books about storytelling. I feel like as a communication coach, and you might agree that at this point, everybody knows that storytelling is, I think, necessary for truly impactful communication, but it’s really hard. Why is storytelling so difficult? I think they’ve heard of it and some many know that they’re supposed to do it.  We make it sound, uh, and I’m saying we creatives like us and people who talk about it, I think it’s important not to make it sound like it’s just for novelists and creative types and marketers, because I think a lot of people turn off almost immediately and think storytelling. CG: I’m not writing the next Great American novel. Yeah. Okay, that’s cool. I’m sure there’s something to learn, but how does it apply to me? So I think it’s very important that we tell people. We’re all storytellers. We’re wired for story. It’s how we communicate. It’s how we process the world through narratives and stories. It’s the way we communicate information, mostly through stories, not bullet points on a slide. So you, we are storytellers you, but it may not be your title. Your title does not have storyteller on it. It’s Vice President Development Manager, but you’re a storyteller. So understand that you’re the storyteller first. It applies to each and every one of us. Some people just do it for a living. They’re called writers or screenplay writers, but you’re a storyteller too. You simply have to adapt it, understand it first, and then adapt it to a business, uh, business setting.  AW: So. Imagine. I am not a storyteller. I am a vice president of marketing or hr, whatever finance at this organization. I do some public speaking. I do lots of internal meetings, and I fully agree with Carmine and Andrea that storytelling is critical. Where do I get the stories and how do I think about integrating them into my communication? CG: You’re a storyteller first. So stories come from your own personal experience. When you tell a case study, we’re all familiar with case study examples. A case study is a story. You just don’t call it a story, but it’s, it’s a story. So whenever you craft a narrative, it’s so much more impactful than simply delivering information. And I’m sure you’ve talked about the neuroscience of why that is, but essentially it goes back to, again, you all will tell you our evolutionary traits. As Sapiens, we processed our world through stories and that’s how we became explorers and learners and people who, uh, cooperated with each other. You can’t cooperate just by giving people facts. You have to motivate them and take them on a journey. There’s a lot about storytelling gets pretty involved. I mean, you, you can get really, really deep into it. So what I like to do is just start, you know, big picture stories can be personal anecdotes. An anecdote about yourself, your background, uh, why you came up with your idea. It could be a case study. Our competitors are doing X, Y, and Z, but if we do this, we’ll get ahead; we will get a big jumpstart on them. If we do not take this, uh, if we do not adopt this new platform, we could be left behind and we may lose a lot of money and we may lose customers. Let me give you an example of a company that happened to. Oh, okay. It’s an example. It’s a story. So you’re telling stories all the time. Just think more deliberately about what those stories are. Well, let me give you an example. I was thinking about the other day. Let’s say that I were to say. Andrea, after this interview, I think I’m gonna hit the golf range and practice something that I saw on YouTube. Okay. That’s a story, that’s a little mini story I can even go on about what I learned on YouTube and, and, and the outcome and what I hope to accomplish. It’s not relevant. Okay. That’s, it’s odd. It would be awkward. It’s not relevant, but it’s a story. What if I were to make it a little more relevant and use myself as an example of something that would be put into context, and I would say something like, Andrea, let’s talk about practicing and alleviating nerves in public speaking. I’m a golfer. As any golfer knows, there’s a big difference between hitting the ball well on the range and walking to the first tee, and that’s where we all collapse because we get really nervous when we’re on the first tee. That’s called first tee jitters. Well, public speakers have the same thing, and I think one of the solutions is to practice like a professional golfer does, and practice under extreme conditions and a little stress to get used to being on that first tee. Now we can have a whole conversation. Okay. So that’s, that would be the beginning of the conversation, but it is a little story about myself, um, and what I’ve experienced on the golf course, but it’s relevant. I’m making it relevant to this conversation, so it doesn’t have to be. We’re not creating the next, you know, uh, three-hour blockbuster movie here. It can be just something simple to connect with one another, but to make it so much more interesting than to bring up a slide and start hitting numbers data. Insert pie chart here. Insert Excel here. Data, bullet points. That’s why people are put to sleep. And if you want to cut through the noise, you need to keep people alert. People get bored easily, and bad PowerPoint or bad presentations will put people to sleep. We don’t want that.  AW: So the story does not have to be epic, is what I’m hearing. It doesn’t have to be epic. A vignette or a metaphor is a. I guess effective and appreciated by the audience, even if they’re not conscious of it. CG: Yes. And by, and when you do those kind of things, you’re, you’re just, you’re already telling a story. Just make it more deliberate. Do more of that. Less of just facts and figures. And if you’re going to use a fact, figure, or statistic, wrap it in some kind of story. Okay. The, yeah, this, um, this is an important number, 82%. We can increase our profits by 82% if we follow this, my idea, this three-step process that I’ve been researching, okay, that’s information. It’s not a story. Uh, and then you can say. So let’s imagine what this would look like. You come to work in the morning, instead of doing this, you would do this. And just by doing this, by the end of the year, we would increase our profits. Oh, okay. So now you’re taking me into like a journey. It doesn’t have storytelling does not have to be that complicated, but I think that when people hear storytelling. They kind of tune out because it’s, oh, that’s more for creatives, not for me.  AW: I think you’re right. We overcomplicate it. Yeah. It doesn’t have to be epic. You don’t have to be a great novelist.  CG: I love epic. I, when I teach and talk about storytelling and write about storytelling, I get pretty involved, um, you know, pretty deep into it, but doesn’t have to be epic. Everyone’s a storyteller. It’s how deliberate you are about it.  Storytelling Secrets from Bezos, Buffett & Beyond AW: So speaking of Epic, let’s talk about Jeff Bezos, your most recent book, the Bezos Blueprint. Carmine, I absolutely devoured that book. So first of all, I had no idea that he was such an incredible communicator. Like it was all news to me. And then the systems that he was mandating at Amazon were all news to me as well. For the listeners who aren’t familiar with the book and also like me at the time, are not, uh, familiar with Bezos and, and kind of what he did, can you share some of that with the audience? CG: Jeff Bezos started Amazon in 1994, and he had a challenge, and the challenge was, how do I explain this to people? Because in 1994, the question was not. Why would I buy books online? Although that was one of the early questions. No, the Quest, the first question Jeff Bezos got when he was raising money for Amazon was, what’s the internet? So by default, Jeff Bezos had to create and think through a lot of communication tactics that would make things easier and more understandable, and I think he got better and better at communication. So I wrote a book called The Bezos Blueprint. The Bezos blueprint. Plays off of many of the tactics that Jeff Bezos pioneered at Amazon to fuel the company’s extraordinary growth. But then I go into the research behind it and I use a lot of other examples, both from people within Amazon and uh. And other companies that will do some, or other leaders who do something similar. Uh, remember Jeff Bezos did something that I think very few people know about. I’ve written about it. Other people have, but it’s not that commonly known. Uh, Jeff Bezos banned PowerPoint at Amazon. That was enough for me. When I first heard that, I said, I wanna know more. There’s a story there because who would do that? And then what he did was he banned PowerPoint within meetings at Amazon specifically, and he replaced PowerPoint with the written word. Well, that is really interesting. And again, it’s, it counterintuitive. Uh, Jeff Bezos, he used to work for a hedge fund. He graduated from Princeton with computer science and electrical engineering. He is a data guy, a technologist. He’s talking about written memos and how writing is so much more effective than PowerPoints in paragraph form. Right? Like a, like a narrative. Yeah. He said, you gotta write, I want to hear a, I wanna read a memo, like a narrative with like a title and examples and stories and subtitles. Like, like a, a short book. Who does that? Not Steve Jobs didn’t even say anything like that. So to me that was so fascinating and the more I got into it, oh my, my gosh, I just kept learning more and more and more about Jeff Bezos and some of the skills he pioneered. And I argue they’re kind of advanced, a communication tactic. It’s not public speaking 1 0 1, it’s for aspiring leaders and, uh, more senior executives. Can I tell you one of my favorite? Uh, I’m sure. You know this; you’ve probably read it in the book. Maybe you were gonna ask me about it, but can I tell you about my favorite tactic of Jeff Bezos that No, I’d love to hear, I think is under appreciated. I’d love to hear the analogies, analogies, metaphors. Yeah. Always thinking about an appropriate or interesting metaphor. A comparison between something that’s new with something that the audience would find familiar. He was very, very creative, and that’s more of an advanced skill. Very few leaders are good at using analogies and metaphors, but boy, when you are, it’s a real skill to have. So, very few people know this, but do you know what metaphor was used to? Start Amazon. How did Jeff Bezos come up with a term Amazon?  AW: I forget, but I keep thinking it was, he wanted something that started with A. CG: That’s the common story; that’s a side effect of what he was looking for. He wanted to find some kind of comparison, uh, and easy to understand metaphor that people would get immediately. Amazon. The Amazon River is the, is no first, he started with the bookstore. I want to start a bookstore. I wanna create a bookstore, uh, that offers the largest selection of books. Largest selection, largest earth’s largest selection, Earth’s largest river, the Amazon River, Amazon. Oh. And it starts with a, it’s a metaphor. Amazon itself is a metaphor. He went on to do other metaphors in business, like in the startup world where I live in Silicon Valley, everyone talks about the flywheel. Everyone’s got a flywheel because the flywheel is what gonna helps, uh, create momentum and growth. That comes from Jeff Bezos popularized the flywheel. He didn’t invent the concept. He read about it and he thought, that’s an interesting metaphor. So he was, he’s creative in that way. Some of the most famous metaphors in business today come from people like Jeff Bezos or another great communicator who is a Warren Buffet, another one of my favorite financial communicators. AW: Tell me more about Warren Buffett. What do you respect about his communication in particular? CG: He recently announced that he is gonna step down from Berkshire Hathaway after leading it for some 60 years or so for decades. I think it’s 60 years he’s been writing an annual shareholder letter. That letter is taught even at business schools because Warren Buffett can take complex financial information and make it interesting to read. How does he do that? Well, he uses metaphors and analogies in every letter, there’s always some kind of an analogy. So the next time you’re watching business news, stock analyst is gonna come on the air and say, we like this investment. It’s got a moat around it. A moat, you know, like a castle and a moat. That means it’s, uh, hard to, hard to enter, hard to enter that industry, keep the competitors out. That came from Warren Buffett. He first wrote that in a shareholder letter about 20 years ago, and now everybody uses it. It’s shorthand. It’s great. Oh, yeah. There’s a moat around it. We like that stock. There’s a moat there. Okay. That came from somebody, it came from Warren Buffet who really talked about it, and now it’s kind of attributed to him, but he does all, he does this all the time. So if you, here’s the lesson for everybody. The advanced lesson is if you have a. An idea that’s new, unfamiliar, somewhat complicated, find a familiar, uh, comparison to make it more relatable. ]We call it an analogy, a metaphor, I don’t care what you call it, but find a familiar comparison, and that’s how people will remember it.  AW: I love it. It’s like, I’ve heard this, this formula, when you’re selling your idea, just say it’s like a. Blank, but blank. Right?  CG: There you go. That’s an analogy. Absolutely. It’s like a blank.  AW: So, I wanna ask you before we get into the rapid fire questions, Carmine, I’d love to hear your take on communication these days, particularly in business and with AI. So, how can the most effective communicators or people who are looking to boost their communication effectiveness use ai? And I’m gonna say maybe other than asking it to help you brainstorm metaphors which I feel like it’s low hanging fruit. Like, if you’re looking for a metaphor, describe a situation and then you can ask. And I, I heard this years ago, actually, um, when people were talking about what to use AI for.  CG: Okay, don’t make the assumption because I make this mistake too. Because we would use it for something like that. We understand its uses, don’t make the assumption that everybody knows this because they actually don’t. Uh, when I’m speaking to very high-level business professionals or people who are very comfortable with chat, GPT and ai, and I bring up exactly that, you know, it’s really good for if you wanna brainstorm a metaphor and they look at me like. You know, with that glazed look, the, the, the how, what, how would you ask it to do that? What do you mean? So, I think there’s still a lot of learning to do. Most people, I don’t think use AI as, I think it’s a good, uh, as a tool that we can use for, IM improved communication. So yes, use it, brainstorm. Give me some suggested comparisons or analogies or metaphors for this idea, and it’ll come up with a few things that may or may not work, but they’ll at least get you to start thinking about the concept in a very different way. So that leads me to what I think about AI at this point. It is a wonderful tool for communicators because most people, again, are not. Thinking and obsessed with communication as we are. So they’re not really thinking about storytelling, and yeah, they’re not thinking it through. So they do need a little more help. And AI is terrific for researching and then organizing and, uh, outlining too. Making your structure just a little simpler to follow, pulling out some key phrases, ask it to simplify your writing, and the first thing it’ll do is start identifying jargon and unfamiliar words. Uh, you might find that that is going to be a lot easier for most of your listeners or readers to understand. So I love it. I love it for that good brainstorming tool. Terrific assistant. Partner, whatever you wanna call it, thought partner, but do not for a second. Think of that AI in any of the platforms replace you, your distinct personality, your lived experiences, your imagination. AI cannot imagine things that haven’t happened before. Okay, newsflash. You know that it can’t do that. It looks for patterns that have already recurred. I remember speaking to one of the leading world’s leading scientists in ai. He wrote a book about China versus, uh, the US in terms of the AI wars, right? And, uh, I was speaking to him and. I must have been reading a lot of scary AI stuff at the time because I was like, oh my gosh, AI, it’s gonna replace everybody. It’s gonna take all our jobs. It can do this, and it can do that, and it’ll do that. And the guy looks at me like, you know, he tilts his head well, you know, like a dog when they tilt their head. ’cause they don’t, they’re confused. And he said, you know, it’s, it’s not real, right? It’s not a human, you know, it’s not human. It can recognize human emotions, but it doesn’t have human emotions. But it was very matter-of-fact, like what are you talking about? So his point was, and he actually later got to this, he said, great tool, amazing tools, but. Nobody wants to hear AI lead them, motivate them, get them to collaborate together as a team. Uh, nobody wants to hear AI give them a pep talk. It’s, there’s a difference between a real lived experience coming from you, a real emotion, a person who has emotion connecting to another person emotionally, and what AI does. So if you can just. See AI for what it does and use it. I think it’s a fantastic creative brainstorming tool, but don’t just copy and paste. CG: The story’s gotta come from you. That, and that’s how you set yourself apart. Being unique. Be distinct.  AW: Yeah. I, you’ve probably read this line a million times as well before, it’s not likely that your job’s gonna be replaced by AI, but it, it will be replaced by someone who knows how to use AI better than you do. I’ve heard that. Thanks for reminding me. That’s a good line.  CG: I think there’s a lot of truth to that.  AW: I actually, I stand corrected. You know my point, when I first asked you the question about metaphors and thinking, we all know this. I recently interviewed an AI expert named Jonathan Mast, and he was spewing off these stats, and I kind of had the same attitude. AW: I was like, you know, everyone’s using it. He goes, no, Andrea, 18% of the US workforce right now is using it daily. And I was like, oh.  CG: I’m an early adopter. Yeah. Again, I’ve been, and I’ve been using it; not only am I among the 18%, but I think you and I, are probably a subsection of that 18% because very few people are using it for. This kind of creative brainstorming that we’re talking about. So there’s plenty of room to grow, uh, and learn more about how best to use AI. I’m learning something new every day, so it’s kind of fun. It’s fun for me.  AW: I was gonna say, send me your tips. I’ll send you mine. I find it fun as well. Uh, before we get to the three rapid-fire questions, one big question. It’s a big one, Carmine. If the Talk About Talk listeners could change one thing about the way that they communicate to make it more impactful, and you can, this can be written or verbal, whatever context you choose. What’s the one thing that you would suggest where you see people making, getting a lot of traction when they learn this, whatever it is. CG: Well, you caught me on a week where I’m gonna give you one answer, but. Two weeks ago, I may have given you another answer, but today where I think people can move the needle and it maybe it’s a reflection of my pet peeve and something I get really frustrated about, because people have the curse of knowledge. They know way too much about their particular industry. They start in the middle constantly. When someone asks you, can you tell me more about this topic? They want you to start. At the top, at the 30,000-foot level, and then drill down. And,  I think this is why people sound confusing. They’re convoluted; they trigger another, uh, set of questions. I see this all the time on business news. Even the business hosts, the technology experts are saying, can you simplify this quantum computing? What is it before you explain how it works? You know, it’s like, just what is it people are, they don’t ask you, give me the big picture, but they want you to start from the top and then start drilling down. Um, and, and so, find that that’s where people tend to make things far more complicated than they should be because you’re not starting from the big picture, you’re starting in the middle. And my frustration a lot is when I get directions or instructions from an organization or a bank, you know, you call up your bank and you get all these complicated instructions, and what they’re not doing is they’re not starting at the top. Here’s a credit card, Carmine, and this credit card allows you to do X, Y, and Z. Let’s talk about Z. Yeah. Okay, great. Top and now. Now we can start going down the funnel, but start at the top and then don’t start from Z because now I’m confused. Why are we even going to Z? Why do we need Z? Start at the top, and you’ll start seeing. I think if you just start being aware of this. You’ll begin to realize when you’re listening to a really boring presentation or you’re listening to instructions that are somewhat confusing, it’s because they’re not starting at the top.  AW: Yeah, they’re starting in the middle, so I’m gonna be doing two things. I’m gonna be watching out for this. I would say it’s zooming out first and then zooming in is another way of putting it. I’m gonna be looking for that all the time now. And secondly, I’m gonna be watching the business news through a whole new lens based on this conversation as well.  CG: Well, my background was as a journalist. I was a broadcast journalist, and then the last few years of my career as a journalist, I was in television news. And, uh, the reason why I started writing books. Speaking on the topic of communication storytelling is because you’ll appreciate this. When I was at C-N-N-C-B-S, few other outlets, we always went back to the same people. We always went back to the same sources. Not, we didn’t cover as much politics back then. It was like serious, just business news. Uh, and so we would go to the same analyst, the same economist, the same stock market experts, and I started to ask, why are we going to these same few people? Because they could explain it a lot better. Uh, so when you have that skill of being able to explain complex material in a way that is interesting and engaging, uh. You’ll stand out, not just on television. Of course, you’ll stand out in any field because people appreciate it, and they crave that simplicity or an interesting way of getting their information. Wrap-Up & Rapid-Fire Questions AW: You will be quoted on that. Carmine, that was so well put. Okay. Are you ready for the three rapid-fire questions?  CG: Yeah. And rapid fire, meaning I only get one sentence, or can I expand or can I expand? Oh, you can elaborate.  AW: I wanna hear. I wanna hear.  CG: Okay, so it’s kind of loose, rapid fire. AW: Yeah. It’s loose, rapid fire. Yeah. Okay. Question number one: Are you an introvert or an extrovert? And how does that affect your communication?  CG: Okay, years ago, I would’ve said I’m an introvert, which people don’t expect. But, um, then someone called my attention to the fact that there’s different types of introverts and extroverts. So I’m, uh, something called a thinking introvert. I dunno if you’ve, have you heard of these things? I’ve done a lot of research and reading on introvert and I have not heard about that. I don’t know if it’s thinking introvert, maybe it’s a different term, but it’s kind of a subsection. I am kind of, I’m thoughtful. I am someone who does kind of stay in their own head a lot, but I am also someone who can speak to audiences in big groups. But that doesn’t mean I’m like a big group kind of guy. I can do it. I could do it comfortably. But usually if I’m speaking to a group of people, I would rather listen to them, get them to talk about themselves, and just sit and listen rather than just talking about myself, which I feel uncomfortable. And someone told me, no, that’s introversion, but it’s the type of introvert who can be an extrovert. I said, okay. Haven’t read a book on that yet, but I’ll go with it.  AW: Carmine, you and I couldn’t co-author that book. I have so much to say about that. There’s gotta be a name for it. Yeah. Uh, well, I think people are confusing shyness, which is social anxiety, with introversion, which is getting your energy from solitude. Okay, well then, I think I’m an introvert first. Yeah. Uh, okay. You’ve already answered this, but maybe you can give us more. My second question is, what are your communication pet peeves? Other than not zooming out before you zoom in any other pet peeves? CG: The next time you’re listening or watching CNBC, whatever program has a lot of like stock analysts and business professionals, listen carefully to these experts wh,o instead of sounding confident, this stock is moving in this direction because of X, Y, and Z. They come across as almost like teenagers, almost like kids. Uh uh. So we really like this stock because of, well, you, you know, there there’s just a lot of, um, like, um, well, momentum, right? Right. Is that right? You know? Right. Like, you know, oh my God, my head’s exploding. Just thinking about that right now. And it’s not just a few; it’s constantly during the day. Right. Well, no, don’t say right. You’re the expert. That’s why you’re on television. You tell me. So, but I think this is an example of something that a lot of people suffer with, and, uh, and it diminishes the perception of confidence, fewer filler words, and you don’t have to start every sentence with, and then end it with Right. You know? Right. Those things diminish the strength of your message, so be aware of it also.  AW: Well, one of my pet peeves is when. Interviewees start every answer with great question. And I don’t think you did that once. I don’t think you did. So when, when someone interviews me, I have this rule, I’m allowed to say it once, and I usually say, I only say this when I mean it. That is a great question. And then I answer it. So, the third question, is there a podcast or a book that you find yourself recommending a lot lately? It could be related to communication skills or not.  CG: I tend to like podcasts that have interviews with really interesting people and I will tend to follow those that have more interviews with creative types, uh, but fun interviews with creatives. For example, if I were to look on my Spotify list, you know, let’s be honest of what I have on my podcast list, it would probably be like Dak Shepherd who has that armchair expert, Dak Shepherd, because he. Interviews a lot of people who are authors or historians or Hollywood types or creatives. So I like learning from a lot of creatives. Uh, smartless, you know, that’s another one that I tend to enjoy. I think I lean toward those because they interview a lot of Hollywood types, but also directors, creatives, and storytellers. So I’m always just intrigued by someone who’s an interesting character. And books too is, I’m a history buff, so I tend to read a lot of history, but history that’s really fun and interesting and engaging to read because getting, we’ll end here I think, or wrap this up because it’ll come full circle.  Almost every major event throughout history, if you study it or read about it, there’s always someone who triggered that event, and they had to be really persuasive. So I like to read history books because I learn a lot about communication in history. AW: Yeah. And it’s stories. It’s his story, right?  CG: I love got people who can write a book, uh, they’re called like nonfic or, or, um, nonfiction narratives. Uh, I think that’s the category. So they’re real history books, but written in a narrative form. And I always loved that because I, I’ve told the authors who I’ve read, uh, sometimes I’ll tell them how is it that I knew exactly what was going to happen? I still had to turn to the page to the next chapter. How did you do that? I already know the history of it and you made me wanna read till the end. That’s what a good writer can do. So I appreciate good writing. AW: Amazing, Carmine. Is there anything else you wanna share with the talk about talk listeners that will help boost their communication effectiveness?  CG: I love to keep in touch with them. Find me on LinkedIn. I think I’m the only Italian Carmine in California. There’s not many. There’s not many of us, so just look for Carmine Gallo, the author. If it pops up and I’m in California, that’s probably me. But, uh, yeah, I, I love to keep in touch or just go to my website, carmine gallo.com. But those are both great ways of actually contacting me so we can have a conversation.  AW: Amazing. I’m gonna put links to your LinkedIn to CarmineGallo.com and to your fantastic books in the show notes. I wanna say. Thank you so much, Carmine. I said at the beginning, I’ve been looking forward to this interview for a long time, and you exceeded my expectations. I really appreciate you sharing your time and your expertise with me and the listeners. Thank you. Oh, thank you.  CG: Thanks for inviting me. AW: Thank you again, Carmine. It was wonderful to finally have the opportunity to talk communication with you. Now. As always, I’m gonna summarize. With three main points that I hope you’ll take away. 1. Focus Like a Minimalist The first point is focus. Carmine spoke a lot about minimalism. This is about precision and brevity. And interestingly, how it takes courage to have this focus to be a minimalist in your communication. More focus, fewer words, less clutter on your slides. 2. You Are the Storyteller, Not the Slides This relates to the second point that I wanna reinforce. When you give a presentation, you are the storyteller, not the slides. Think of Steve Jobs, minimalist slides, black background, one simple image, maybe two words. The slides support you. They do not tell your story. 3. Nervous? That’s Normal—Now Practice It. And the third point, if you’re nervous about presenting, just know this. You’re supposed to be nervous. It’s supposed to be that way. So what can you do about it? Practice being nervous. Go out of your way to put yourself into situations where you feel anxious. Raise your hand to lead every meeting and present every talk. This is what high-performance athletes do. They practice hard until competition day comes, and then muscle memory sets in. Practice really does make perfect. And that is it for this episode. Thanks again to Carmine, and you can check out the show notes for links to everything that we discussed, and of course, to connect with both of us. Now, if you enjoyed this episode, I’m gonna ask you to please leave, talk about talk a rating or a review. This helps us get discovered by more folks, and I really appreciate it. If you’re not subscribed yet, just click subscribe or follow. Okay. Thanks for listening and talk soon. The post Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos & the Secret to Unforgettable Communication | Carmine Gallo (ep. 197) appeared first on Talk About Talk.
• Answers to Your Burning COMMUNICATION Questions | Q&A with Dr. Andrea Wojnicki (ep.196) 15.09.2025 26นาที

  What questions do ambitious professionals ask to help them improve their communication? In this special Q&A episode, Andrea answers listener questions on imposter syndrome, brain fog, elevator pitches, and executive presence. In this episode, you will learn: ✔️ Why imposter syndrome is common and how to reframe it as a strength ✔️ How frameworks like “Present, Past, Future” and the “Power of Three” can help when you are not at your best ✔️ Why rehearsed elevator pitches fail and what to say instead ✔️ How to recover when you lose your train of thought in a meeting or on stage ✔️ The one word that immediately reinforces leadership presence This special Q&A shines a light on common speaking challenges and provides frameworks you can use immediately in meetings and presentations. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 💻 Website: TalkAboutTalk.com 💼 LinkedIn – Andrea: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ 💼 LinkedIn – Talk About Talk: https://www.linkedin.com/company/TalkAboutTalk/ 📣 Newsletter: https://www.TalkAboutTalk.com/Newsletter/ 🟣 Podcast – Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Podcast – Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 TRANSCRIPTION Andrea Wojnicki: It is critical to feel confident and to be perceived as confident. If you wanna establish credibility, then you’ve got to be confident, and the good news is that confidence can be learned.  Hey there. Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. You are in for a fantastic episode. I am really, really excited about this one. Over the past couple of months, I’ve been asking you for questions in my email newsletter on LinkedIn and Instagram, and even here on the podcast, what communication skills questions do you have for me today? I’m answering those questions. This Q&A episode is your chance to hear my answers to your questions. This is like a free coaching session.  Let’s do this. Let’s talk bout talk. In case we haven’t met, my name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please just call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach at Talk About Talk, where I coach ambitious executives like you to communicate with confidence, clarity, and credibility. Why? So that you can make an impact and achieve your career goals. You can learn more about what I do if you go to TalkAboutTalk.com, or you can connect with me on social media. I spent a lot of time on LinkedIn, and I would love to see you there. Okay, let’s get into this. I scoured my inbox and my social media feeds to collect your questions, and we’re gonna dive in right now. Let’s talk about talk. I’ve got question number one printed right in front of me. Let me read it to you. This is from a listener named Steven who emailed me. Here’s his question. How Do I Handle Imposter Syndrome and Overthinking My Audience? One thing that’s tripping me up with communication skills is what others are thinking about me and about what I’m saying. Are they thinking, Ugh, this guy doesn’t know what he’s talking about? Or is it something like, what in the world is this guy talking about? I’m so lost. I also begin to overanalyze my audience, and I think that they’re all zoned out, and the look that they’re giving me is a look of, we don’t really want to be here. Andrea, I need your help. All right, Steven, a couple things for you. First of all, what you’re describing here is a perfect example of imposter syndrome, and you need to know imposter syndrome is very, very common it is. Only a few exceptions that I can think of, of clients of mine who do not experience imposter syndrome. And the good news is you can overcome it with practice and with different mindsets and tactics. So that’s one thing you’re describing, imposter syndrome, and you can overcome it. The second thing I wanna say, based on the way that you worded your question for me, Steven, is I’m gonna diagnose you as someone who has very high self-awareness. Let me back up for a minute here and talk about the research on self-awareness, which is very important if you wanna be an exceptional communicator. So. The research on self-awareness shows that there are really two different types of self-awareness: internal self-awareness and external self-awareness. Internal self-awareness is probably what most of us think about when we think about the term self-awareness. It’s being conscious of our thoughts. Our feelings, our emotions, and even our physicality. Like, I’m hot, I’m cold, I’m shaking, I’m nervous, whatever. Okay, so that’s internal self-awareness. There’s another kind of self-awareness that maybe we don’t think about as often. External self-awareness. So external self-awareness is being aware of your environment and context around you, and specifically aware of your impact on others. Steven, the way that you worded your question to me it sounds as if you are very high on external self-awareness. And I wanna tell you, this is great news because this is a key ingredient for exceptional communication. I hope that in and of itself will help to elevate your confidence. I’m gonna provide you with one other tip that I hope helps, and it is simply to check in. It is okay whether you are in front of an audience. The way you worded your question, you used the term audience, so I’m guessing that you’re talking about when you’re giving a formal presentation. But even if you’re in a meeting, you’re seated around a table or around a screen. If you’re online and you’re making your point and you’re interpreting through your external self-awareness that people might not be getting their message and you might not be clear, they might not agree with you, whatever the point is, it is a power move. To pause and say, I just wanna check in with everyone is the last point that I made here, clear. And you could be more specific and say the point about whatever the my, the reason, my recommendation, or my rationale here, whatever it is, check in and ask them. You can be very explicit. Can I have a raise of hands on? Is everyone clear? If you’re clear, raise your hand. Or you could say. Raise your hand if you have any questions. I would love to pause and answer it right now. So when you do this, you’re helping your audience. You’re making sure that they, if they have any questions, they have an opportunity to ask and to check in. And you’re also helping yourself. You’re clarifying whether what you’re interpreting in terms of your external self-awareness is in fact, true. So I wouldn’t do this, you know? Four or five times in a presentation. Of course, maybe you do it once or twice, but if you’re making a very important point that you wanna make sure is clear, or if you’re catching some cues in terms of facial expressions, body language, that things might not be clear, it is a power move to pause and ask them explicitly. I hope that helps, Steven.  What Should I Do About Brain Fog? Okay, let’s move on to the next question. The next question I have here is from Christine, who emailed me. Hello, Dr. Wojnicki. I wanted to write you about the communication issue that I struggle with. I’ve noticed that since I’ve been going through menopause, my memory and energy has plummeted, and the brain fog has me grasping for words. It’s like I can’t mouth these simple, everyday words that are on the tip of my tongue, and it’s infuriating. I feel dumb and flaky around my coworkers, which then turns into the imposter syndrome as communication is paramount in my line of work. This feeling has damaged my confidence to a certain extent and has caused me anxiety. Okay, Christine, there we go with the, with the imposter syndrome topic again, so. I wanna clarify before I answer your question that I’m gonna answer this in the context. Not of getting over a menopause brain, but you could have baby brain if you have a young infant in your house. It could be that you are sleep deprived, maybe you’re hungover, whatever, you’re not at your best, you come, maybe you got in a big fight with your spouse before you got into work. The point is, you know that you’re not at a hundred percent. And how do you make sure that your communication is optimized in this context? I do have three suggestions, and for those of you who have been listening to the Talk about Talk podcast, you know I’m a big fan of the power of three. So Christine, I’m gonna give you three suggestions, and two of them are kind of obvious. And the third one is actually my main recommendation for you. The first thing I wanna suggest is if you’re going into a high-stakes meeting. Even if it’s just a status meeting with your boss and you’re feeling, you know, sleep deprived or you have menopause brain, whatever the reason is, preparation will help you immensely. So make sure you understand what’s on the agenda, make sure you understand what your role is, think in advance of some things that you can say. The truth is, most of us don’t do it, and if you spend some time preparing in advance for the meeting, you may end up providing more value than others in the meeting, despite your brain fog.  Okay, so think about what the topic is, think about what you might say, anticipate, and prepare. My second suggestion is, again, before you go into this meeting, separate from what the agenda is. I want you to focus on your personal brand. I want you to focus on your unique professional identity, and what do I mean by that? Before you go into this meeting, Christine, think about your unique strengths, skills, expertise, and passions, the things that you know, you can add value on in the meeting. So it’s probably an internal meeting and you’re meeting with other people that work at the same company. What unique value do you bring? And then make sure those are the things that you comment on that will help elevate your confidence and help you be a bigger contributor in the meeting. So that’s my second suggestion. My third suggestion for anyone out there generally, but especially if you’re not ticking at a hundred percent, like Christine was talking about with brain fog, is to think about using frameworks. Frameworks are great because they will boost your confidence. You have a structure that you’re following. The structure is also proven, so it’ll make better sense to the people you’re communicating with, and it’ll help boost your confidence. Two frameworks that come to mind are my self-introduction framework and also using the power of three. So my self-introduction framework is present, past, future. If you go into a meeting and you’re asked to introduce yourself, whether you have brain fog or not, please use the self-introduction framework. It’ll help you do so with confidence. Here’s the framework, present, past, future, present. So start with who you are and what you do. Hi, my name is Christine. I am a construction consultant at ABC company. Okay. Then you move to past. Here’s where you establish credibility. So you, depending on the context, you mention one or two or at most three things about yourself or about your past that are relevant to the context, and that will help you establish credibility. You could say, I’ve been here for three years, where I came in at this role, I got promoted to this, and last month we succeeded in achieving this goal. Right? So you say a few things that are relevant to establish credibility for yourself. Then you move on to the future tense. Here’s where you say something enthusiastic about what’s to come. You could say, I’m really looking forward to getting to know all of you better, working on this project together, and knocking it out of the park. So research shows, enthusiasm wins. End your self-introduction with a statement of enthusiasm. So that’s one framework you can use is the self-introduction framework. And then the other framework that you can use is just using the power of three. Imagine Christine, you have brain fog and your boss says, in this meeting, we need to make a decision. Are we going with option A or option B, Christine? And you’re like, oh dear, and you’ve got brain fog. Just remember the power of three. Here’s what you say. There are many advantages and disadvantages, pros and cons, for option A and option B. I’m gonna go with option B. Three reasons that come to mind. Number one, reason number two, reason number three. Even if you don’t have three reasons at the top of your mind, Christine, when you say this, you’re smart enough that they’ll come to you. So highlight three reasons and then say again. I understand that there are some advantages to option A. But for these three reasons, I really recommend that we go with option B. And you sound so succinct when you say this. You’ve got structure to your answer. You’re doing your audience, the other people in the room a favor. You’re telling them, I’m gonna tell you three reasons why. So when you get to the second one, they’re like, she’s not gonna keep rambling. She’s only got one more. You’re doing them a favor. You’re doing a self yourself a favor. You’re boosting your confidence and you’re communicating with clarity. Okay, Christine, thank you for that question. I hope that helps.  What’s Better Than an Elevator Pitch? Let’s move on to the next question. The next question is on LinkedIn. Actually, I got questions from many, many, uh, folks including Jad, Mohammed, and Daniel. They are all asking for tips on developing, or as a few of them said, nailing their elevator pitch or their elevator speech. My answer to this general question may surprise you. It’s this no. I will not help you nail your elevator pitch or your elevator speech. Why? Two reasons. One, an elevator pitch always sounds rehearsed because it is, and you don’t wanna sound rehearsed. Secondly, an elevator pitch or an elevator speech is not customized and therefore it is not optimized for the audience. Okay, Andrea, so you’re not gonna help me with my elevator pitch. So what do I say when I get on the elevator and the CEO is there, and I know I’ve got two and a half minutes to get from the 40th floor down to the main floor with the CEO? What do I say? Here’s what I tell you. You don’t start by talking about yourself. Instead, bring something up about the other person that they care about. I promise you the CEO has people pitching them all day. Does anyone ever ask them how they are? Does anyone ever comment on the work that they’ve done? So that’s my first piece of advice is check in with the other person. It could be as simple as, how’s your day going? Even better, ask them about a project that you know they’re working on, or maybe one that they just completed that’s positively impacted your work, so make it about them. Then you can go into your pitch if you want to call that if you don’t know the person. This is a fantastic time to use a self-introduction framework: Present past, future.  Make sure that your future comment is very enthusiastic about what you’re working on, and relate it back to the CEO or the person that you’re talking to. If you’ve already met them, you can still use the framework, but just customize it. Use the self-introduction framework. You could say, well, you may recall, I work in this department, right? So talk about who you are and what you do. Go to the past tense and say, Recently, I’ve been working on these other projects, and we had some great success. So this is your chance to sell yourself a little bit, right? Establishing credibility, as I said, and then again, end it off with a positive statement with enthusiasm, talking about the future. So the research shows that enthusiasm wins, as I said before, whether it’s in the context of sales, negotiating, teaching, and coaching. People are more likely to close the sale, to win the negotiation, to successfully coach and teach people when they demonstrate enthusiasm. And you wanna make a positive impression on the CEO, right? So end with a, I’m really excited about this project, and I hope I’ll be able to present the outcome of this project to you soon. Something like that. So, to the folks who are inquiring about nailing their elevator pitch or their elevator speech. Don’t think of it as a speech. Think of it as an opportunity to check in with the other person, and then use the self-introduction framework to guide your comments. How Can I Practice Public Speaking Without a Live Audience? Okay, moving on. I had a lot of questions about formal presentations. I’m gonna share three with you here. The first one is from Amisha on LinkedIn. Who said, what’s the best way to practice public speaking when you don’t have a live audience?  Okay. Amisha, I’m so glad you asked this. When I read this question, I was like, I’m for sure gonna answer this. I work from home, okay. I don’t have a bunch of colleagues that I can go and practice or rehearse my keynote speeches or my workshops with, so you know what I do. If it’s a high stakes presentation, I will literally stand up and practice presenting to the wall. What do I mean by that? I mean, I did this recently. I was in my kitchen. Nobody else was home, and I had to deliver a 15 minute, so very time-bound keynote speech. I wrote out my speech, and then I narrowed it down to one sheet of paper with my main points. I stood up with my sheet of paper. I’m not reading a script, right? I’ve just got the main points written there. I used the timer on my phone to record how long I would take, and I practiced delivering my speech the first time I gave it. It was 30 minutes. That’s not good. I need, I only had 15, so I sat down, I cut some things out. I tried again the next time, it was 20 minutes. By the time I practiced it a third time, I had it down to 15 minutes and it flowed. And here’s the thing, when you practice this way, even though you’re practicing, you’re standing up, you’re practicing talking to a wall, your brain has muscle memory. So when you go out on stage, it’s like, I’ve done this before, and I find that works really well. So don’t use the excuse that you don’t have people to present to, to rehearse to, as an excuse for not practicing. Practice does make perfect. How Do I Stop My Voice From Shaking During Presentations? Next question about formal presentation is from Nikolage on LinkedIn. How can I stop my voice from shaking during presentations? I don’t have an issue with my voice shaking now, but earlier in my career it definitely happened. I remember when I was a sales rep and then I was working in the marketing department at Kraft Foods, I had to give some presentations, and very often I would be sweating and shaking, and my voice would be shaking. So I have a couple things to share with you that help a lot physical things. Mental things, so physically first, I know you probably know this is where I’m headed. Breathing is key. I’ve had the great opportunity to interview some fantastic vocal coaches over the last couple years on this podcast. And breathing is always a core tenet of optimizing your voice. So recently in the research that I’ve been reading, it’s actually your exhale. So yes, you want to breathe deeply and slowly, but particularly your exhale why. When you slow or elongate your exhale, your brain says, oh, I’m not gasping for air. Everything must be okay. And then it calms your body and your brain down. So just try this before you go out on stage or before you answer that big, important question in a meeting: take a slow, deep breath and really slow your exhale. Now you, you don’t wanna blow like that into the microphone, but you get the idea. So slow your exhale. This will calm your body down and make your voice sound better. The other thing physically that you can do that most people do, but not everyone does. Make sure you have water. So if you’re in a meeting, always have water with you, and especially if you’re going out on stage. I used to bring a glass of water. Now I always bring a plastic bottle with a lid just in case it falls down and it seems like it’s Murphy’s Law if I have it there with me. I won’t need it, but there have been a few times when I’ve been on stage in front of an audience where my throat has gone really dry and I desperately would’ve appreciated a sip of water. So bring a bottle of water with you, whether it’s a meeting or whether you’re on stage. So you’ve looked after yourself physically, you’re breathing deeply, elongating your exhale, and you’ve got your water with you in case you need it. Mentally, what do you do to optimize your nerves and not have a shaky voice? What I do, what works for me, is a mantra. My mantra goes like this, Andrea, you know what? You know, and you’re keen to learn more. Lemme break that apart for you. You know what, you know, this is about me doubling down on my expertise. I’m not saying I’m good at everything, Andrea. You’re the best. No, no, no, no. You know what you know, you know consumer psychology, you know communication, you know, whatever the topic is of the speech that I’m giving or the keynote. So, remind yourself of your skills and your expertise. This will elevate your confidence and provide you with focus. Okay? And then the second part of it is. You’re keen to learn more. This is about me reminding myself of my growth mindset. There’s a good chance someone in the audience is gonna ask me a question that I haven’t thought about before and I don’t have an answer to. This is an opportunity to learn. So with my mantra, I’m reminding myself of my strengths and my growth mindset. You are welcome to steal or borrow my mantra, by the way. But regardless, I encourage you to use a mantra. This will focus your brain on the good, right, and it’ll also distract you from your anxiety and your nerves. I find it works, and I have lots of clients who do the same, and they say it works for them. What’s the Secret to Recovering After Losing My Train of Thought? Okay, third question about formal presentation. Elena on LinkedIn asked, what’s the secret to recovering smoothly after you lose your train of thought on stage? So. Yes, I’ve had this happen to me a few times when I’m actually giving virtual presentations. It’s happened when I get distracted when I’m looking at someone on the screen, and I know that it, it happens to people all the time. I do have an answer for you here. The answer is to be singularly focused on what your main point of your presentation is. This actually has a couple of benefits, right? If you think about it. The presentation that has many, many main points is going to be less engaging and less memorable than the one that has one key point. So this will provide you with focus and that will benefit your audience or your listeners. The other thing that having a main point does is it allows you to reset. So imagine you’re giving a presentation and someone asks you a question, you know, mid presentation, and you answer it, and then you’re like. Hang on a second. Where was I? And whether or not you have slides, you might not remember what you were gonna say next. If you go back to your main point, that will bring you back to your presentation and the focus. And in every situation where I’ve heard this happening, it’ll remind you of where you were. So it’ll boost your confidence. It’ll help your audience. And if you lose track of where you are in the presentation, it’ll bring you back. Be crystal clear on your main point.  How Can I Develop Executive Presence? The last question I have here is also from LinkedIn. Two people ask me this. Daniel and Monia separately ask for tips on developing executive presence. So I think about this a lot because executive presence is something that I would say most of my clients are seeking. And so I have three things again, the power of three. Three things that we can all work on to help us elevate our executive presence. The first one, maybe this will surprise you, maybe not. The first thing is to focus on your basic communication skills, and when I say basic, I don’t mean easy, but I mean the kind of elementary communication skills, things like listening, storytelling, formal presentations. If you think about the folks around you who are exhibiting executive presence, they all have exceptional communication skills, so you can elevate your executive presence by focusing on your basic communication skills. The second thing is to focus on elevating your confidence. A lot of the questions that we’ve had here in this Q&A episode have been focused on imposter syndrome and confidence. So think about the tactics and the mindsets that will help you. Everything from deep breathing, reciting a mantra. To doubling down on your personal brand or your professional identity, really thinking about what your unique strengths are. All of these things will help boost your confidence. And the truth is, if you’re feeling confident, people will perceive you as confident or as exhibiting gravitas, and that’s when you can start to establish credibility and executive presence. So we’ve got the basic communication skills and we’ve got confidence. The third way of establishing executive presence is actually a really easy one. And it’s interesting. People always answer this one with, oh, I already do that. Or, of course, and it’s something that they can easily change. And it’s this, use the word lead when you’re talking about yourself, when you’re introducing yourself, when you’re talking about your work. Use the word lead. Leadership led, the team I led accomplished this. My leadership style is this, I lead the blah blah, blah function or the blah blah, blah team, right? So however you can use the term, every time you use the word lead, you are either explicitly or maybe implicitly reinforcing your status as a leader and establishing your executive presence. So three ways to help boost your executive presence. One. Work on your basic communication skills. Two, elevate your confidence using mindsets and tactics. And three, use the word lead in reference to yourself and the work you do whenever you can.  Wrap-Up & Rapid-Fire Questions Okay, I’m gonna stop there. We’ve covered imposter syndrome and self-awareness, how to boost your confidence and clarity when you have menopause brain, or really any time you have brain fog, why and how to replace your rehearsed elevator pitch with something a little more customized and compelling. I’ve answered questions about nailing formal presentations and specific advice about how to develop your executive presence. When I look at all of the questions that you asked, there really are three, yes, three themes here.  1. The Power of Using Frameworks First, the power of using frameworks. You can optimize your communication with frameworks to guide you while still optimizing and customizing what you say. Yes, I am a big fan of frameworks.  2. The Signifance of Our Confidence Second is the significance of our confidence. We started off with Steven’s description of what it feels like to have imposter syndrome. Yes, it is critical to feel confident and to be perceived as confident. If you wanna establish credibility, then you’ve got to be confident, and the good news is that confidence can be learned. That is what I spend a lot of time actually helping my clients with.  3. The Impact of Developing Your Personal Brand The third and last theme is the impact of developing your personal brand. And what I mean by this is focusing on your unique strengths, expertise, and skills. Taking the time to identify your unique strengths will go a long way, and it’ll boost your confidence and it’ll establish credibility with the folks that you talk to. I hope this was all helpful. If you’re not already subscribed to this talk about Talk podcast, please hit subscribe now, and you can also forward this episode to your friends who might find it helpful. And as you’re going about your day, if you can think of any new communication skills questions for me, I say bring it on. You can connect with me through the TalkAboutTalk.com website, or you can DM me on LinkedIn. I love hearing from you. Talk soon. The post Answers to Your Burning COMMUNICATION Questions | Q&A with Dr. Andrea Wojnicki (ep.196) appeared first on Talk About Talk.
• 7 Ways to NETWORK with Grace | The Honourable Marie-P. Charette-Poulin (ep.195) 02.09.2025 39นาที

  What does it take to build a strong network? The Honourable Marie-P. Charette-Poulin shares the networking strategies that built her career across decades of leadership in broadcasting, law, public service, and politics. She also reveals her “7 Rules of Networking,” principles rooted in service and respect that apply to both career and life. In this episode, you’ll learn: ✔️Why true networking is about others, not yourself ✔️Why handwritten notes and business cards still carry weight today ✔️ How to follow up in ways that deepen relationships ✔️ The 7 timeless rules for building meaningful connections From negotiating with unions at CBC to serving in Canada’s Senate, Marie’s career has been defined by connection and grace. Her stories illustrate how networking can shape careers, build trust, and even save lives. This episode is essential for anyone who wants to network with authenticity and create relationships that endure. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 💻 Website: TalkAboutTalk.com 💼 LinkedIn – Andrea: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ 💼 LinkedIn – Talk About Talk: https://www.linkedin.com/company/TalkAboutTalk/ 📣 Newsletter: https://www.TalkAboutTalk.com/Newsletter/ 🟣 Podcast – Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢 Podcast – Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 CONNECT WITH MARIE-P. CHARETTE-POULIN: 💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marie-poulin-450392126/ MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE: 📖 Biography: She Dared to Succeed: She Dared to Succeed: A Biography of the Honourable Marie-P. Charette-Poulin by Fred Langan:https://amzn.to/3HIjGr5 📖 The Power of Kindness by Dr. Brian Goldman: https://amzn.to/45oSFC9 TRANSCRIPTION The Honourable MPCP: Networking is not projecting. Networking is actually showing interest in the other person. You’re not showing interest in yourself. You’re asking questions about the other person, and once you start networking, you can actually say that every individual multiplies. Andrea Wojnicki: I met Marie recently at a conference where we were both delivering keynote speeches. My keynote was about delivering executive presence, and her keynote was focused on effective networking. We immediately hit it off, and I asked her to join me on the Talk About Talk podcast, and here we are. In this episode, you will learn Marie’s secret sauce to successful networking. It’s a recipe with seven ingredients. You’ll also hear some unbelievable stories from her incredible career in broadcasting, public service law, and higher education. In case we haven’t met yet, my name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki, and I’m an executive communication coach at Talk About Talk. You can learn more about me and what I do at TalkAboutTalk.com or by clicking on the links in the show description. About the Guest: The Honourable Marie-P. Charette-Poulin Now, let me briefly introduce the Honorable Marie Poulin, and then we’ll get right into the interview. Her impressive bio includes so many accomplishments that I’m afraid we’re gonna run outta time. So let me hit the highlights. Here it goes. Let’s do this. Let’s Talk About Talk.  AW: The Honourable Marie-P. Charette-Poulin is currently parliamentarian in residence at St. Paul University in Ottawa. Earlier in her career, Marie worked her way up at CBC Radio Canada as a producer, then a station manager, and as a senior executive. She then shifted to the Canadian government, where she served as Deputy Minister at the Privy Council and as parliamentarian in the Senate. She was also a partner at the International Law Firm Gowling, WLG, and an international development officer with the Institute on Governance, working in Iraq. Her involvement with not-for-profits, as well as foundations and advisory councils, demonstrate her commitment to public service, higher education, and community involvement. Marie’s biography entitled, She Dared to Succeed by Fred Langan was published in 2023. People say that Hoorable Poulin’s trademarks are her smile and her laughter. I would add a third trademark, her incredible grace. Thank you so much, Marie, for being here today to talk with me and the Talk About Talk listeners about networking and the impact that it can have on our careers.  The Honourable MPCP: Thank you, Andrea. It’s an honor and it’s a joy. I had the pleasure of hearing one of your talks, and it was simply inspiring, so thank you.  The Power of Strategic Networking AW: Back at you. I mean, that’s why we’re here, right? We really connected at that event. I wanna start by asking you, I guess, the general question, which is based on the fact that you’ve built an extraordinary career across broadcasting, across public service, and across politics. What role would you say strategic networking played for you in terms of opening doors and advancing your career? The Honourable MPCP: It’s not only advancing your career, but I think that what networking does is helping you be of service to others above all, because people call you and they say. Do you know someone in this field? And I’ll give you an example. 2020. It’s the winter, and a longstanding friend of mine. And so we’re in 2020, and she calls me and says, Marie Paul, because that’s my, she knew me in grade one. Marie Paul, do you know anybody at the Ministry of Health in Ontario? And I said to her, Oh, Rashelle, I’m so sorry. I don’t know anyone. She says, Marie, you’re the most connected person I know. Yeah, think. And I said, Oh my God, Rashelle, wait a minute. Give me a little bit of time, but don’t leave your email. I will get back to you. I immediately called my contact, got the name of the very senior, a public servant in the Health Department of Ontario was able to get the name, the email address, the phone number, and sent everything to Sarah. A few days later, she sent me the most beautiful email saying to me, you probably saved the lives of many of my nuns because of the information I was able to gather, and I can’t thank you enough. And the beginning of 2020, what was it? The beginning of COVID. Yeah. And we, so we still didn’t see each other twice a year. And she always says to me, you saved the life of nuns. And I can’t thank you enough. Okay. And so that’s what networking, that’s really what networking is all about. It’s not about us, it’s about the others. AW: So out of the gates, you’ve given me the shivers. This happens to me sometimes when I’m coaching people and we come up with something really profound. You’ve given me the shivers with the first story that you’ve told Marie. Oh my gosh.  The Honourable MPCP: She wasn’t a blank.  AW: But this beautifully illustrates the impact that effective networking can have. The Honourable MPCP: Yeah.  AW:  It also beautifully illustrates your mindset or your philosophy around networking. Right. That of providing service.  The Honourable MPCP: But I had never realized that networking was networking network until the former Prime Minister Jacques, I went into his office one day for coffee and he said to me, how’s the most connected person I know. And I said to him, What do you mean boss? Connected. He said, you have a million dollar Rolodex. How do you do it? You can’t imagine how much people appreciate it. But I had never realized until he mentioned it. And I think it’s also because he has a lot of influence on me that I did a double take, and as you say, I had shivers because I hadn’t realized that actually, that’s what I’ve been doing since the age of five. AW: So then in retrospect, I guess what impact did this skill of yours that you may not have been conscious of, and then you became conscious of, right. What impact did it have on your career?  The Honourable MPCP: It made me decide to be more of service to others. So when I was invited by the University of St. Paul in Ottawa, which is a bilingual small Catholic university, but is very inclusive because we have many Muslims, we have many Protestants, and we have many nonbelievers. So it’s a very inclusive, small university. So when I was called by the then rector to join the university as a parliamentarian and resident. I thought, Oh my God, maybe I could be of service to the university. And you know, that’s how it’s working. It’s been 18 months. I’m learning every day. I’m enjoying every day, but I really feel that I’m being of service to the leadership of the university. To the professors, to the deans, and to the students. From CBC to the Senate: Career Transitions Fueled by Connection AW: Amazing. That is fantastic. I think all of those stakeholders are very fortunate to have you around. I remember. When you and I were at this event a couple months ago, where we met, you shared a story about how there was a sudden change early in your career when you were working with the CBC, and then how you ended up using your network or cultivating your network, right, to help you evolve to the next stage. Do you wanna share that story? ’cause I think it’s quite, um, fascinating.  The Honourable MPCP: Well, it’s interesting, you know, when I began at the CBC in 1973 as a researcher at $15 a week. Loved it, loved it, loved it. Became a radio producer. Then I was sent to Sudbury to open all the Francophone radio services in Northern Ontario, one production center with 35 repeaters.Fantastic.  Ben invited me. He was then president of the CBC, invited me to come back to Ottawa to become the vice, the Associate Vice President of all the regional stations across Canada, Rimouski, Quebec City, Moncton, Vancouver, Edmonton. AW: Can you just stop there for a second? Just for the record. This is a big job, especially for a woman then. Can I say that?  The Honourable MPCP: Well, this was the eighties.  AW: Yeah.  The Honourable MPCP: And there weren’t many women at the executive table.  AW: Exactly.  The Honourable MPCP: I have to admit. There was only one more, and there were 15 executives. So I fell in love with the country. Well really fell in love with public broadcasting. Then invited me to move to become Vice President, Secretary General to the Board, and I worked hand in hand with him, and after that, the new president who came in invited me to become the Vice President of Human Resources and Industrial Relations. When I told him I know nothing about human resources, he said. Yes, but you’re connected to all the presidents of the 33 unions. You’ve worked with most of them. And I said, yes, I’m from operations, and you know, Mr. President, if I could be of service to you, I will be. So I had been vice president of Human Resources for two years, and one morning I came to the office and there was a little brown envelope under my door. I opened the envelope, and there was the summary of the bonus, the yearly bonuses. At that time, for the seven vice presidents who were what we call support services, vice presidents, finance, internal audit, engineering, human resources, and industrial relations, and so on, and there were six men in one. All the men received $15,000. And don’t forget, this is 1992, and I received $6,000. So I went to see my immediate supervisor, who was the senior vice president, and I put the page in front of him, and I said, I’m a bit surprised because I renegotiated 33 union agreements in 10 months. It really went well. But I said, so why? It’s the president’s decision. So I went to see the executive vice president, who had the same professional development as I have had within the organization. And I said, I did the same thing, put the page in front of him, and said, I don’t understand. I renegotiated 33 union agreements in 10 months. He said, Come on Marie. We know you’re just that cheerleader. So I slowly got up, took the page back, started walking towards the door, and he said immediately, Come on Marie, we can talk about this. And I turned around, smiled at him, and said, Michael, I have to go out and buy my pompoms. And I turned around and slowly left. I didn’t slam the door, went to my office, closed the door, called my husband Bernard at home and started crying, and said, Bernard, I have to leave the CBC. He said, What are you talking about? I told him the story. He said, Marie, you know you’re right. You have no choice. You have to leave.  Don’t tell anybody your intention. Come home tonight and let’s make a plan. AW: Smart.  The Honourable MPCP: So what did we do When I got home, he made me say to him, Marie, who do you know where? That’s when I realized, who do I know? And so I started saying, oh, so and so there, and so and so there, and. Who’s the Deputy Clerk of the Privy Council because we worked together when I was Secretary General, and he was then the chief of staff to the Minister of Communications, and Oh, I know the chief of staff to the Prime Minister. I said, I know Hugh Siegel. We met in Sudbury, remember? Sure. In, uh, 19, uh, 80, uh, he came with William Davis to the radio station, and so I went through the list. We decided that I would call, not directly these people, but that I would call three different friends who would call them to give them the message that Marie Poulin was interested in a new professional chapter. Nothing about what had happened. I didn’t tell anybody, and I didn’t share it for years. And so the next thing I knew, I was invited for lunch by the clerk of the Privy Council, Glenn Shortliffe, because my timing was impeccable. They were looking for deputy secretary to cabinet in communications because the outgoing had just given his resignation, and the job was open. So the timing was perfect, and so I was able to announce to the president privately that September. That I would be leaving on October 1st. And so there was a tradition that when a vice president would leave the CBC, there would be a special dinner in the boardroom with the members of the board, all the vice presidents, and the vice president and his, because it was usually a he, his spouse. AW: Yeah.  The Honourable MPCP: So there was no dinner for me. There was a lunch given in the cafeteria, chaired by the president. And all the vice presidents, my husband was not invited.  AW: Oh, wow.  The Honourable MPCP: And so when I was invited to say a few words, I thanked my colleagues for their cooperation and told them how much I had enjoyed my 20 years at the CBC. And I thanked them all for their friendship and their success stories. And then the lunch was over, the president left, and the senior vice president and the executive vice president. And every vice president came and shook my hand and said, Marie, you’ve got class.  AW: Mm-hmm. You do.  The Honourable MPCP: And I never forgot it. It was the lesson of my life where you can be respectful in a very difficult situation. AW: Yeah.  The Honourable MPCP: And not slam the door, but just make sure that other doors are opening. Because of the respect that you’re showing.  AW: So to me, Marie, this exceptional story really it highlights many things, but two of the things I just wanna identify are is one that being so gracious, having such class is actually a sign of strength that ends up helping you, but it does take strength. And I just want you to know how much I respect, you know, all of the decisions that you made there really made it, your story really made an impact on me.  But the other thing about your story is how you weren’t in a situation where so many people are, where they realize too late that they have not been cultivating their network, their professional and personal network, right? That they, they’re like, oh, I need a job, and, and your husband was smart enough to say, let’s come home and brainstorm what contacts you have and what the plan’s gonna be in terms of leveraging that network that you’ve been servicing. The Secret Sauce: 7 Traits That Make a Great Networker So this is my question for you. What were you doing that you can think of now in retrospect that you can maybe suggest to the Talk About Talk listeners as advice in terms of cultivating a strong network?  The Honourable MPCP: I think that, first of all, we need conditions, or what we call premises. Okay. To be able to reach out to people successfully. And there are seven of them. Can I share with you?  AW: Yes, please.  The Honourable MPCP: Because they’re fun. So I have seven of them. Number one, intellectual curiosity. You gotta wanna know what makes other people tick. Number two, reliability. People have to know that you can count on them, but also on your discreteness. So important number three, authenticity. You have to be comfortable in your own skin. I’m proud to be from Sudbury, from Northern Ontario. It’s fun. I like cars. When you’re from Northern Ontario. You like cars and you like water, and by the way, those are three qualifications, curiosity, reliability, and authenticity. Being comfortable in one’s own skin that make up the results of the Berkeley study. These the three conditions to being successful. So, what else do you need? You need generosity. Number four. You never hesitate to give of your time when a person asks you for something. AW: including being on a podcast.  The Honourable MPCP: That’s an honor.  AW: Yeah. Number five, courage. You’ve gotta be bold enough to ask for help. Number six. Appreciation. Oh my God. You’ve got to take the time to express gratitude to say thank you. That thank you, goes a long way. Number seven, respect. No matter if it’s the former prime minister or a former clerk in a store, you’ve got to show respect to every every person. Those are my seven premises to be able to network. Now, what does it take to develop networks and everybody can, no matter if you’re shy or outgoing or tall or short, or working as a waitress or working as the governor general,  AW: Or male or female. The Honourable MPCP:  Or male or female, right. Thank you. Yeah, because there’s one precious tool. And it’s called the business card. I’m still using it, and people are, or more and more using them. The Japanese have found out that it’s such a precious tool because even today it’s sensual. You touch a card, you have all your information on that card, who you are, what you do, how you can be reached if you have a psych. You have an address for your site. Everything is there, but it has to be accessible. I always have them in my right-hand pocket. When someone gives me their business card, I put them in my left-hand pocket. They’re not in a purse. They’re not inside. They’re not in a satchel. They have to be very accessible. AW: So Marie, I remember when you and I met at this event a couple months ago, and you and I started speaking before we delivered our keynote speeches. And I asked you if you had a card, and you said yes. And then you said, do you have one? And I had to run and grab my purse and pull it.  And then you taught this to me in your keynote, which is Andrea, keep your cards on in one pocket left or right, and then use the other side for the ones you receive. Such an obvious thing, but so helpful. So helpful. And I have to say one other thing about business cards. I feel like they were waning, and I feel like they’re now coming back to your point. Oh yeah. Most of the people at that event, most of the women that were at that event, they were all CEOs, right? Female CEOs. Yes. I think. Almost every single one of them had a business card.  The Honourable MPCP: Very much. And if they didn’t, they did 48 hours later because they all sent me emails. I received emails for the whole week. Following or so. And they certainly have business cards now, and what’s interesting is that it is very practical to be able to simply, with your phone, get the electronic address from the other person. But when you get home, it’s amongst all your other contents. Whereas the business card, when you enter your pockets, you remember meeting that person or those people, right? And you say, Oh, wasn’t that nice? AW: Right? So it’s a reminder. It’s also a cue to follow up. Right. We were talking about that. We were talking about the fact that if you don’t follow up, you may as well have not met the person. Frankly, you can put them in your LinkedIn if you’re not following up.  The Honourable MPCP: Very much so, and there are different opportunities to follow up also. So it’s key and it’s personal.  Timeless Tools: Business Cards, Handwritten Notes & Staying Top of Mind AW:  So Marie, in addition to having business cards and sharing them with people, with this left pocket to the right pocket strategy and following up, what other specific tips will you would you like to highlight? The Honourable MPCP: It’s involvement is saying yes to the invitations. To gathering, gather where you can meet people and new people, old friends, but new friends, new colleagues, old colleagues. It’s so important. It’s giving that time. And thirdly, I would say that it’s taking the time to write a handwritten note, example. A friend of yours gets a big promotion. It’s nice to send an email. Of course it’s, but you know, that handwritten note is special. Let’s hope Canada Post stays in business for handwritten notes, please.  AW: Yeah. Beautiful. You’re right. You’re right. An email is better than nothing, but a handwritten note is, is a very personalized gesture and it, and it takes a little above, beyond.  The Honourable MPCP: I act my talk. I even suggested to get personal letterhead done so that when your note is received, it’s clear on who it’s coming from and it gives it a touch of professionalism. Yeah. Which is so important. So be it. If you’re a doctor or a cashier, or a sales representative. That personal note makes it very special.  AW: Yeah. I love this idea of, of, I love personalized things just generally, but having personalized stationary, it’s, you know, in relation to your personal brand or your professional identity, it’s signaling, you know, a certain conscientiousness, a certain class.  This is a common theme with you, Marie, is this, is this class, and Grace that you have, I wanna ask you. A couple of other more specific questions about networking. Do you think it’s different for women versus men especially, you know, today? Do you think it’s networking is different for women?  The Honourable MPCP: I don’t see it. I don’t see it as different, honestly. Andrea. Yeah, I do think that there are, there are individuals, both men and women, who are shyer than others, and so they don’t want to project who they are. But networking is not projecting. Networking is actually showing interest in the other person. You’re not showing interest in yourself. You’re asking questions about the other person. And once you start networking, you can actually say that every individual multiplies. I always say, if you know one senator. You know, 105 senators, because you can reach out to that one person and find out who is interested in this issue that I could connect with. And so it’s the multiplication, therefore of your contacts, which is really, really important. And you’ve gotta be bold to ask, as I was mentioning earlier, you know, we asked our doctor. For the name of a specialist. Well, we have to be bold to ask a colleague in a law firm, for instance, Does one of your colleagues practice this type of law? AW: Right. Brilliant. I love what you just said also about for shy or introverted people who may be apprehensive about networking. It’s not about you, it’s about the other person. You absolutely are gonna be quoted on that. I love that.  The Honourable MPCP: But the other thing also, Andrea, is that if you really want to be up to date. You have to keep what I call the Rolodex. You have to keep that list of names of contacts. Up to date, right? When you get new business cards, you have to enter them in your phone. And I have to say, it’s work.  AW: It is work. It is work. But you can get a lot of traction.  The Honourable MPCP: Yep. Whenever I’m on the train to go to work, uh, from Hot Water Toronto, I always take advantage of those four hours to put my list up to date, and I don’t stop. And while you’re putting it up to date, what’s interesting is you fall on a name. Oh, Dr. Andrea, I wonder how she is. You sent Dr. Andrea A. Little message. How are you? Right? And so it’s a way of not only keeping the list up to date, but also the contacts, right?  AW: Again, the business cards are serving as a catalyst to remind other people about you. And then also, as a reminder to reconnect very much. The Honourable MPCP: The biggest challenge is maintaining your list, right? Is maintaining those contacts. So I do it in a very very specific way. When I was called to the Senate, I discovered that there was a tradition on the hill that all parliamentarians from both houses would send out a New Year’s card to their constituents, their friends, their contacts. So I started sending out New Year’s cards, and so even if I’d left the Senate 10 years ago, every year I send out New Year’s cards to family, friends, and contacts. The challenge is that very often people have moved. Right now, that’s another challenge, but I have to say that those cards have more impact than we can ever imagine. Someone sent me an email, or more than one actually. It’s so nice to receive your personal card with your personal wishes, Marie. Thank you so much. And same to your family. So that’s one way of keeping up a network.  AW:  You’re keeping, there’s another, you’re keeping top, top of mind with people, right? And, and it’s, and it’s lovely. You’re, you’re, it’s once to hear. You’re not asking for anything. You’re just providing your well-wishes.  The Honourable MPCP: That’s it. And do you know the pleasure I get outta saying writing. Dear Andrea, I trust you’re doing well. May the new year bring you the best of everything, Marie. It’s that pleasure you get in those 30 seconds of thinking about that one person and his or her loved ones, right? It’s very, very special. Then there’s something else that I’ve started doing, and I started doing this quite a few years ago.  I’ve always loved birthdays ever since I was a little girl. So whenever I meet someone. I always try to find a way to ask them their birthday. So every fall my husband buys me a new calendar. It’s huge, and it’s a paper calendar. I put in an every date birthday of Andrea, birthday of Steve, so that every month I have about 75 birthdays that I know of.  AW: Oh, wow.  The Honourable MPCP: So that when I get up in the morning. One of the first things I do over coffee is check the calendar and see whose birthday, and I send out a wish. AW: So nice.  The Honourable MPCP: And it takes a few seconds to send a birthday wish to two people, three people.  AW: Amazing.  The Honourable MPCP: And it’s special. It’s their birthday, it’s their day. So is special.  Wrap-Up & Rapid-Fire Questions AW: So I’m seeing this common theme of providing service and not asking anything in return. I’m also hearing a common theme of you using, there’s certain tools or practices or exercises that you do that serve, I used this word before as a catalyst to remind you to reach out to people. There’s the business cards, there’s the calendar, right? I think it’s absolutely brilliant.  The Honourable MPCP: And I know it’s not online, it’s not electronic. Why? Because I can see huge. Yep. Huge. Right in front of me, and it sort of sticks out. Birthday off, birthday off. With all my, my, my agenda for the day. So it’s, uh, it’s fun. AW: So people could put the birthdays in their electronic calendar. Oh, absolutely. Or on their paper calendar. So that reminds me of, I guess the last question I wanted to ask you before we get into the three rapid-fire questions, which is obviously the art of networking. Maybe not your philosophy around it, but how you do it has evolved over the course of your career with the internet and computers and phones, and everything and the rise of social media. So how has that impacted your networking or what you see other people doing? I find that it’s facilitated it.  The Honourable MPCP: Yeah, ’cause networking now has been made so much easier, and it’s right there, right in front of us. So thank God. I love, love, love being able to send an email being able to, and most former parliamentarians. Don’t go on social networks too much. We’ve been, uh, harassed enough. But I do go on one or two, and I love being able to react to someone who’s been promoted, just been promoted, or use that information mm-hmm. To send a personal note to the person who’s been promoted. Right. Which is nice. A handwritten note for a promotion because it’s a success story. AW: So the internet and technology is providing us with the ability to have, I guess, a broader network. It’s also faster access. And I remember after you and I met, we were emailing back and forth, and I said, I missed the name of your daughter, and I’m trying to connect with her on LinkedIn. Right. So that conversation could have happened, but it would’ve taken a long time if we were sending each other letters. Right. So it was like instant. Within a couple days, I reconnected with your daughter, which was lovely.  The Honourable MPCP: It’s interesting. I find that a phone call sometimes can be intrusive because people are so busy today that I prefer sending an email when the person will read it at a convenient time for him or her. AW: Yeah. The asynchronous nature. And I think that that’s why with, I guess, the generation Z, the generation Y and Z, they are staying off the phone. Right. And it’s like they wanna have asynchronous communication. Yeah.  But I understand them.  AW:  Yeah. Well, once again, you’re considerate of others. You’re in the service of others, and you’re so gracious. Are you ready for my three rapid-fire questions?  The Honourable MPCP: Oh my, that’s, this is interesting. Absolutely. So I take for granted that you ask those three questions to all your guests. AW: I do.  The Honourable MPCP: Oh, interesting.  AW: I do, I do.  The Honourable MPCP: Okay.  AW: Okay. And, I can share with you some of the trends of what I hear, but let’s, let’s go. The first one is, are you an introvert or an extrovert? And how does that affect your communication?  The Honourable MPCP: Oh, that’s interesting. I think we all are a balance of folks. Because I love meeting people. I don’t like being the center of attention. As a former radio producer, I like bringing the light on others, but I love meeting people. On the other hand, I was raised by nuns and priests who taught me the importance of closed retreats. So I try to go away four times a year for a few days, just on my own, to go into complete silence and prayer for a few days.  AW: Wow.  The Honourable MPCP: Yeah, and it really nourishes the soul and the mind. And the body.  AW: For how long have you been doing that? The Honourable MPCP: Since 1992. I was very, very, very tired. I had just finished renegotiating those 33 agreements at CBC, and my husband greeted me at home with a ticket when I got home, and he said. You’re leaving for Mexico tomorrow morning for a trip on your own for a week.  Because you need to rest, otherwise you won’t survive. And that’s when I discovered the pleasure of being in silence. By yourself, even though you’re in a social environment of an all-inclusive, for instance. No, I’m not sociable at all. I say hello. That’s about it. I do a room service. Yeah. And I really go into silence for a few days. And I really, every time I come back, I feel as though I’m a new person. My husband always reads me at the airport and says. Where did you leave the last 10 years? Oh, wow.  AW: So nice. Your husband sounds absolutely amazing. Okay. Rapid fire. Question number two. What are your communication pet peeves?  The Honourable MPCP: The fact that people are introducing themselves only with their first name. History has taught us that when there was slavery, people were known only for their first name. I like to hear the full name. The first name and the family name. That’s my pet peeve.  AW: Nice. That’s a unique one. Okay, question number three. Is there a podcast or a book that you find yourself recommending to people lately? The Honourable MPCP: Well, I could always recommend Fred Langan’s book. She Dared to Succeed, which is the title of my biography that he wrote. There is one book.  AW: I’m gonna put the link to that book in in the show notes, by the way, so people will see.  The Honourable MPCP: Thank you. Fred Lagan is a great biographer, as you know. He works for the global male. Yeah, and he’s a great biographer. The book that really touched me was The Power of Kindness by Dr. Brian Goldman from Toronto. Have you read?  AW: I have not read the book. I’ve met him. I will also put a link in the show notes to that book, and I need to read it myself  The Honourable MPCP: And maybe do a podcast with him. AW: That’s a great idea. That’s a great idea. Is there anything else you wanna share with the Talk about Talk listeners, Marie, about networking with grace?  The Honourable MPCP: Oh, I just say to all your viewers and your listeners that you’re doing a great job because what you’re doing is you’re giving us an opportunity, Andrea, to learn from others. So thank you, because I’m learning from others and I love learning. I have to say, I did a Bachelor of Arts and Psychology, and then I did a Master’s in social sciences. At 59 years old, I went back to law school. It was the best thing I ever did, and today I’m working at the University of St. Paul, but I’m also studying Canon Law as a student. So, I’m really having fun learning. AW: Learning is where it’s at. I am with you on that. Marie, thank you so much. The pleasure really has been all mine. I really enjoyed meeting you the first time and now interviewing you here. Thank you so much.  The Honourable MPCP: Thank you, Andrea, and a warm hello to all your viewers. AW: Thank you again, Marie. Isn’t she inspiring? Such a fantastic role model. Now, typically I conclude these episodes by summarizing three main points, you know, me and the power of three. But in this case, I’m going to conclude by sharing Marie’s special sauce for networking.  Seven ingredients. One intellectual curiosity. You gotta wanna know what makes other people tick. Two, reliability. People have to know that they can count on you. Three. Authenticity. You have to be comfortable in your own skin. Four is generosity. Never hesitate to give of your time, especially when someone is asking. Five is you gotta be bold enough to ask others for help. Six is appreciation, as in expressing gratitude. And number seven is respect. No matter if it’s the former prime minister or the president or a stranger on the street or a clerk in the store, you’ve got to show respect to everyone. I feel like this list of seven things is gold, not just in networking, but in life. Intellectual curiosity, reliability, authenticity, generosity, and asking for help. Appreciation and, of course, respect. Marie, thank you again so much for sharing your insights and your stories. We are all inspired now to network with a little more grace, and thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, I hope you’ll share it with a friend, and I hope you’ll subscribe on whatever platform that you’re on. Talk soon. The post 7 Ways to NETWORK with Grace | The Honourable Marie-P. Charette-Poulin (ep.195) appeared first on Talk About Talk.
• Women: Get on BOARD with Deborah Rosati (ep.194) 19.08.2025 43นาที

  What does it take to earn a board seat and influence what happens once you’re in the room? Award-winning corporate director Deborah Rosati shares what she’s learned from over two decades in the boardroom.  In this episode, you’ll learn: ✔️ How to show up with presence without dominating the room ✔️ How the W.A.I.T. acronym can elevate your boardroom presence ✔️ A strategic approach to finding (and exiting) the right board roles ✔️ How women can build credibility even as the only one in the room  Deborah Rosati is the founder and CEO of Women Get On Board and co-founder of Women Funding Women. Her mission is clear: to help women show up with confidence and credibility at the highest levels of leadership. From asking better questions to knowing when not to speak, this is essential listening for anyone pursuing board roles or seeking to show up with confidence in high-stakes meetings. CONNECT WITH ANDREA 💻Website: TalkAboutTalk.com 💼LinkedIn – Andrea: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/ 💼LinkedIn – Talk About Talk: https://www.linkedin.com/company/talkabouttalk/ 📣Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/ 🟣Podcast – Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503 🟢Podcast – Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369 CONNECT WITH DEBORAH 💻Website: https://deborahrosati.ca/ 💼LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/deborahrosati 📱Instagram: @deborah_rosati CONNECT WITH WOMEN GET ON BOARD 💻Website: http://womengetonboard.ca/ 💼LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/wgobcanada/ 📱Instagram: @wgobcanada MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE: 📖 Let Them Theory by Mel Robbins: https://amzn.to/41mgXuf 📖 Bragging Rights by Lisa Bragg: https://amzn.to/3Jiz1Pz TRANSCRIPTION Deborah Rosati: I think, as women, we sometimes hold ourselves back. We’re not good enough. We’re not smart enough. We’re not pretty enough. And you know what? We are enough.  Andrea Wojnicki – Talk About Talk: If you ever wondered what it takes to land a corporate board seat, you’re about to hear from someone who’s made it her mission to show you how. About Deborah Rosati Deborah Rosati is an award-winning corporate director who served on boards for over 20 years. She’s also the founder and CEO of Women Get On Board and the co-founder of Women Funding Women Incorporated. She’s on a mission to increase the number of women on boards, close the funding gap, and cultivate the next generation of female corporate directors and founders. In this conversation that you’re about to hear, Deborah shares what boards actually look for in their candidates, what holds many women back, and the exact playbook that you can use to go from quiet expert to board-ready, visible, and in demand. You’ll also learn an acronym that you can use to guide your communication in board meetings and beyond. And I love this acronym. Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk.  I’m Dr. Andrea Wojnicki, and this is Talk About Talk, where we coach ambitious executives to stand out with confidence and credibility. To learn more, click the links in the show description. Now, let’s jump right into my conversation with Rosati. Thank you, Deborah, for being here today to talk with me and the Talk About Talk listeners about getting women on boards.  DR: Well, thank you, Andrea. Delighted my favorite topic each and every day.  Communication Skills That Matter in the Boardroom AW: So we’re gonna put a little bit of a communication skills spin on this as we were talking about, and my first question for you is, can you help us identify some communication skills that are particularly important for board members? DR: That is a great question. I think I’ve thought long and hard on that. I would say for board members in particular, you have to remember your role. Your role is there to have an oversight, insight, foresight in hindsight. So you’re not there to manage the business day to day. So how you’re showing up is really important. That ties back to your role from an oversight perspective. So active listening. You have to be going into the boardroom, not telling the executive team what to do, but listening and be really active. And I know I have to work on that each and every day. But that listening, because if you’re there to provide and make informed decisions, you have to understand the issues, and you need clarity around the issues. And so a way that I like to communicate on the active listening is, so Andrea, let’s say you are the board member and you’re presenting a sensitive matter, I might come back to you, Andrea, and say, so Andrea, what I’m hearing you say is x, y, z. Am I missing anything, or can you help me understand? Right? And that’s really that active listening, where you’re listening to that person. But maybe you need to clarify, maybe you need some additional information, or, uh, you don’t wanna come across as a board member telling the person across the table from you what to do. And I’ve been on the other side of that as an executive, where once a quarter would come in and tell me what to do as the CFO, and I vowed to myself, I would never be one of those board members. So I feel like active listening is number one. Secondly, showing up with empathy, being an empathetic listener, and being empathetic in your communications. So. I think as women, we do a really great job of showing up with empathy. We’re listening. That’s our EQ, right? EQ, our emotional intelligence. Empathy is one element of it. So when you’re coming in, you’re looking, you’re observing. I might be observing that someone’s really tired in the boardroom, someone’s really tired around the table. Executive, it could be a board member, and maybe it’s a communication that you have not right then and there in the board meeting, but it might be after you call the person up and say, Hey Andrea, I noticed you’re really tired. Is everything okay? Being empathetic? Maybe understanding, you know, the board meetings that the length of the board meetings, the time that you’re communicating with each other, and maybe some people have different styles, right? Some people like to be confrontational, some like to be collaborative, and so really that rolls up to that emotional intelligence, and I think as women, we do a really good job showing up with that, but we can lean in with that empathy. AW: So, listening and being empathetic. I have to tell you, I’ve been on some not-for-profit boards, and I remember this, this sort of mantra, which was nose in, hands out. You see the head nod. Um, I feel like this should be updated based on what you said, which makes a lot of sense. Maybe it’s ears in hands out.  DR: I love that. Well, so yeah, so Andrea, you’re right, there’s a commentary called Nose and Fingers Out. So whether you put your fingers in or you put your hands in, whichever, it’s basically saying, listen, your job is to have an oversight, not to get into the trenches. So I do like that ears in because we, you have to be listening.  Why Am I Talking? How to Be Strategic with Your Voice And I think the other element that really I amplifies your communication skills in the boardroom is there’s a term called WAIT. Have you heard of that?  AW: No. Tell me.  DR: Oh, I love it. So you have to think about when you’re showing up in the boardroom, why am I talking?  AW: Oh my gosh, Deborah. I love that.  DR: I have to remind myself all the time, Andrea. So these are tips for me as like, okay, I get excited. I wanna show up, I wanna comment, but then I have to step back and go. But wait a sec, Deborah. Why am I talking? What do I need to bring to the table? You don’t have to be the smartest in the room. You don’t have to be the loudest in the room, and even your positioning of when you lean in to have a conversation. Are you the last to speak? Are you the first to speak? AW: Oh my goodness. So I am gonna steal, first of all, I love acronyms  DR: And this one is someone else. Don’t you worry? It’s public domain.  AW: Okay. Okay. So why am I talking? I encourage my clients to think about no matter what level they are in the organization, to track the ratio. How much am I talking versus everyone else? And when you’re junior in your career, a lot of folks need to speak up. So if there’s four people in the room, try to speak at least 25%, the folks that are more senior. They need to speak typically less than their fair share, and also, as a leader, make sure that everybody else is speaking their fair share. So, making space as a leader for everyone to contribute. And so you’re taking this kind of idea of tracking the ratio and actually turning it inward and saying not only how much am I talking, but why am I talking right now? What is the purpose? And I think, um. I would just write this word on the top of like the meeting agenda and write, wait, and then look, when you look down, ask yourself why am I talking? And it will amplify our self-awareness like exponentially without a doubt. And that kind of goes back to that empathy and emotional intelligence. And I, the other element I think when you are in the boardroom is you want to be an ally for others in the boardroom. So, especially if you’re chair of the board,  your role is to be the sort of the lead conductor. You’re facilitating an orchestra to have conversation to put out the best music as a team. So when you’re thinking about facilitation, not only as a chair, but as another, as a fellow board member, is look around the room who hasn’t spoken. So you may be able to amplify someone else’s voice. And it doesn’t, that doesn’t apply just in the boardroom. That applies everywhere where you go, whether it’s an executive meeting, whether it’s a client meeting, whatever meeting it is. But I do think it’s important to, if you notice that someone has not spoken up, and some cultures, they’re more submissive not to speak up, right? So you wanna encourage dialogue. And that really goes to that whole diversity of thought and diversity of practice. And everybody has different communication styles, as you know. AW: Yeah. And, I absolutely agree. The onus is on you, whether in the boardroom or outside of the boardroom. If you are an effective leader, you’re making sure you’re pulling out everyone’s valuable opinion. Otherwise, why are you at the meeting  that’s a whole other topic.  Navigating Conflict and Leaning Into Your Strengths During High-Stakes Moments So Deborah, I feel like that this is all great. You’re going into your meeting, you’re listening, you’re ears in. Hands out or fingers out. You’re being empathetic. You’re asking yourself, why am I talking? You’re prepared. Sometimes things go sideways in these meetings. I know. And sometimes you’re an, you may anticipate it because there’s some sort of, uh, restructuring or investigation or there’s major, uh, succession planning issues going on. You’re nodding your head. Yes. Checked. Been there. Yeah. Been there, been there. So when things get intense, when maybe there’s even conflict, maybe amongst board members or between the board and the executive, do you have some guidelines for either mindsets or tactics that people can try to keep things productive.  DR: Well, you know, there’s a saying, stay calm and surface with grace. So if you can think of that, of course, there’s always gonna be conflict. There’s going to be, because there’s, the stakes are high. So you go through, you’ve talked about some very stressful, very complex matters. So could be an M and A. Let’s use M and A as an example, okay. For acquisition. And I’ll give you, I love to give stories, so if I can, kind of. One. So typically when you get into these unique situations, they’re special situations, and usually you’re forming a special committee of the board. And that special committee has a mandate, right? Because a lot of these special situations are very time sensitive. So, you’re forming a special committee, and that maybe it’s two or three, maybe four members of the board, depending on the size of the board, or going on this special committee, because there’s a lot of diligence, there’s a lot of work. At the end of the day, you, if you’re gonna make an informed decision on whether you’re gonna accept a proposal, whether it’s a special investigation, whether it’s succession planning, crisis communication, you’ve gotta make an informed decision as a board. So you ultimately have to collaborate, but you sometimes have to go into special task force special committee to go deeper into the, and so I had a situation where we were a board and the chair of the board, we formed the special committee and he said, okay. And there was four of us. And he said, you’re all gonna lean in. You’re gonna lean in. And Deborah, you’re gonna lean in on due diligence and Sue and Joe, let’s use their names. You’re gonna lean in on this, and you’re gonna, and really what he was doing was really trying to activate us in an area that he knew we had expertise, but he didn’t want us all leaning in the same direction. Right. And it was powerful moment in time for me as a director where a chair all saw the value that I could bring and he just positioned it. And I never thought that my work was about leaning in. And it made that special committee really impactful and very agile because we all had our lean-in roles, and it really allowed us to facilitate our special committee meetings. So when we showed up. It was, we each had areas that we were leaning in. We were closely working with, I was working with valuation experts, I was working with investment bankers, I was working with the CFO. I was working like there was a team, and I was showing up in a lot of those meetings to just be eyes and ears of the board not to. And so that when we met as a special committee, I could lean in on where we were in the process, where the discussions were, and so to me, that communication was the delegation divide and task, but it was framed in this lean-in concept. So what he took the expertise of the various, and it was really great because we were able to divide and conque,r and it was a really successful M and A and we, it was in 60 days or less. So you’re working, you know, round the clock. But it was really valuable. So from a communication that chair of the board who ended up chairing the special committee, really empowered us as a committee.  AW: So Deborah, what you’re describing here works, integrates so beautifully with the work that I do with my clients on helping them develop their personal brand or their professional identity, and to summarize it as succinctly as I can. Basically, there is real power in identifying your unique strengths and passions and especially as you, as you become mid-career and, uh, more senior in your career, if you wanna have, you know, your most satisfying and successful career, which of course you do double down on those strengths, and you’re saying in the board context, this can actually help you be productive. So I just wanna underscore for the listeners that everything they’ve heard me say in the past about personal branding, you could definitely not. You can, you should apply to your board role. Make sure your board chair and the nomination and governance committee understand exactly what your strengths are. I wanna share a really, it’s not even a story, it’s more like an anecdote, but I was on a hospital foundation board and I have a PhD in business, so I can talk finance and strategy and marketing and blah, blah, blah. But in this foundation meeting that I’m thinking about, in particular, the finance guys, the finance committee. I was going way deep in, in like in front of all of us, right? And I was, I actually thought to myself, why am I here? I can’t contribute anything, whatever. And they kept getting more and more and more into the minutia. And then I thought to myself, I had this moment where, kind of like you said, I was like, why am I here? Why am I talking?  I’m here because of my strategy and branding expertise, and communication expertise. So I raised my hand and I literally said the words based on my expertise. From what I’m hearing from a financial perspective, we can communicate it this way to our foundation, blah, blah, blah, whatever. Stakeholders and everyone, I remember physically, everyone turned and nodded, and I was like. Oh, there’s magic in really doubling down on what your unique role or expertise is on the board. Right.  DR: Can I just extend that out for you, Andrea? Because I know we’re gonna talk about women and communication style. So what you did, and I love it, and I wanna elevate that for you, is instead of saying, Hey, I don’t know why I am here, you turned it around, you positioned to say. I’m here. Yes. Here’s what I’m hearing and here’s how we can apply it, and here’s what I bring to the table. Right? You were able to turn it around to use your value proposition and what made you unique, but it took you had to step back from the situation, right? AW: I did. I did.  DR: And but you, I love that. That was so powerful. I’ve had situations, if I may, ’cause this is very much the same topic, where I was just joining a new, uh, public company board post a GM. It’s during COVID, there’s Zug base, Switzerland. Nobody’s, I haven’t met a single person. In person, go into the AGM, and they’re just forming this nominating corporate governance committee. And I know for certain they wanted me to chair the audit committee, ’cause yes, I have financial expertise, but there was this moment in the meeting that I had this pivot. Sometimes you just have to wait for it and wait. Find that nugget. So it came up. The question came up was like, well, what’s a nominating corporate governance committee? I’m new into this board role. We’re all virtual. And all I said to the chair of the board is, can I take this? I would like to answer this question. He said, you go ahead, Deborah. And at the end of the sentence, I said, And by the way, that’s the committee I wanna chair.  AW: Oh, wow. Beautiful. So there’s something about focus here, right? It’s not that I didn’t say I was good at everything. I said, based on my specific expertise, here’s my input. And you were saying, I can take this. I’m not saying I’m leading the meeting, I’m not taking over, but I want to answer this and this and yeah. So there’s something magical about focus. DR: Well, but I think what it does is we’ve given ourselves permission. We have the confidence to say, yes, I know this. I don’t know everything, but I’m gonna lean in here, and this is where my focus and I know I can make those contributions. But you have to be certain and confident that you can deliver,  AW: Right? You don’t wanna overpromise and underdeliver, but you do wanna be confident at the same time in what your specific focused expertise is.  Being the Only Woman: Confidence, Credibility & Standing Out So let’s shift then to women on boards, and I know you’ve. I did a little bit of reading and research. Deborah, I know you’ve been the only woman on the board before. I was the only woman in the marketing department at Rotman when I was on the faculty there, teaching in the MBA program. It’s a fascinating experience. A little bit horrifying. I will admit. Do you have any advice generally for women who find themselves as the only one or one of the only ones in terms of establishing credibility beyond what we were just mentioning and highlighting your unique expertise? How else can we establish credibility and influence in our board roles?  DR: Well, we have to have courage and confidence without a doubt. And but to build that credibility, you just don’t show up and say, Hey, I’m credible because I have my FCPA and I have my ICD. And I’m a doctor. I have my honorary doctorate that people read that. But it’s, you’ve gotta build that trust and that credibility, right? It’s not instantly. So for me, when I go into situations or I go into new environments, it takes time. So you’re reading the person, and I’ll give you an example of where it was instant credibility, but I didn’t do it intentionally. I’m in a board interview, and I am meeting with the CEO and the CFO. It was a public, and I read all the disclosures. I read the financial statements, the notes to the financial statements, and I asked one simple question and the question was, I noticed in note 15 of your financial statements, in your segmented information, that you’ve got a healthcare division. When are you spinning it off? The CEO looked at me. He said, are we under an NDA? And I said, well, no, it’s in your notes through your financial statements. The CFO looked at me, and we just continued on. So I wasn’t there to do a aha, but I was there to understand how impacting the company. And so it was just it. It wasn’t a trick question; it was just a question, but it was helping me inform where the company was going. So whatever your expertise may be is use it appropriately at the right time. Don’t be flustered by it. Don’t ask for permission to do that. I responded, and I said, no, we don’t need to be on an NDA because it’s so, when you’re informed and you have that information, and you have the expertise, it is really powerful to show up with it. Don’t not use it, but use it at the appropriate times.   AW: So, I’m hearing here be very prepared, which on one hand is almost like generic advice, but on the other hand. I know from being on boards that’s not always what happens. So be very prepared and don’t underestimate the power even of asking questions in terms of establishing your credibility. Right.  DR: Well, it’s that style. Yeah. I always like to kind of approach it. If I’m not certain, I might just say, Hey, can you help me understand? I’ve seen it this way. I don’t know if I fully understand where you’re coming from, but help me understand, well, that’s a different approach than saying, why did you deliver this? This does not make sense. It’s like you understand and don’t forget as board members. From the Rotman, from ICD, they talk about the divide, and they think about a Grand Canyon, and there’s this big divide. The board’s on one side, management is on the other side, and there’s this divide. Management spends 2000 to 3000 hours in their day job and what they do, the board is maybe two to 300 hours, so 10% of their time. So there’s a big divide between what management is doing and understands the business versus the board. So it’s always, you’re always trying to think about how you can get better alignment and how those communication skills can help you at the end of the day, make a more informed decision. AW: So this sounds like advice that everyone would benefit from, not just women. Is there anything in particular that, uh, and I’m not, I’m not negating it, it’s still critical, but is there anything in particular that stands out based on your own experience and or mentoring women, stories that you’ve heard, things you’ve observed that maybe women need to pay more attention to? DR: Well, I like to use the Barbie analogy, and yes, I’m wearing my Barbie pink. I think as women, we sometimes hold ourselves back. We’re not good enough, we’re not smart enough, we’re not pretty enough. And you know what? We are enough. And so the reason I say that is I talk to a lot of women, and they’ll say to me. I don’t have financial expertise. And I say to them, guess what? Not everybody on the board needs financial expertise. You need to have financial acumen. You need to have financial literacy, but you do not need to have, so the whole, or there’ll be the conversation is, well, I’m not a lawyer. I said, not everybody on the board is going to be a lawyer. And so sometimes we discount what we truly bring to the board because we talk about what we don’t have versus. We have, and I think to you with your clients and your personal branding, it’s all about who you are and what and how you show up and what you bring to the table. As women, we need to show up with our best foot forward, but we have unique skills. AW: Yes. So lead your strengths and then, you know, in your interview or whatever, you can say, here are the areas where I have baseline knowledge or experience, or I’m getting training on this thing, or whatever. But highlighting first and foremost what your strengths and your expertise is.  DR: I would take it one step forward is just build on your strengths. I don’t think you need to talk about your weaknesses. If it comes up and say, Hey, Andrea, I noticed you haven’t been on a public company board. Tell me how we can get comfort around that. You might say, well, actually, I have worked for public companies in marketing and communications, and here’s the value that I contribute. Right? So I would take the weakness out because as women we will always go default to that as opposed to, here’s how I’m leading.  AW: I love it, Deborah. So, something that you don’t know about me yet is that I am a huge fan of the power of three. In fact, it’s a joke with many of my clients in my, I told you that at the end, I’m gonna summarize with the three key learnings that I wanna reinforce. I have a self-introduction framework that was published in the Harvard Business Review, a simple framework for introducing yourself. It’s three steps. It’s like three. I have three kids. It’s all about, when I say, whenever you’re wondering how many. Make three your default, and I read that you have a unique perspective on the power of three. Can you share that with the listeners?  DR: Thank you, Andrea. So it is not something that I made up. It’s out there. It’s the power of three with respect to boardrooms and women in the boardroom. So one woman on a board is a token, two is a presence, and three is a voice. I think that I have been the only one, a token or the only one, two, and it changes the dynamics, and I know we’ll get into that different style as well. AW: But also just on threes, Dale Carnegie, did you ever do public speaking or read hit?  DR: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of influence. He said, you know, you’ve, for public speaking, it’s three Es. You’ve earned the right, you’re eager to tell, and you’re enthusiastic, right? So, yeah. I love the three I. I love three. It’s everywhere. I love threesomes. W: Deborah, you’re gonna get quoted on that. Okay. That’s funny. So you said you’ve had experience as a token, as like one of two in terms of the presence and in terms of three being a voice, it’s real.  DR: It’s real and then tip it where you actually have a majority of women on board and that’s, I’ve had that experience, so I’ve had the full range, but usually being the only. AW: Yeah. Oh gosh. I, you’re reminding me of, and I can’t remember who it is, but it’s one, it’s a, a powerful like managing director of one of the big investment banks on, on Wall Street, and she’s had an incredibly successful career, and she said. People always told me, Oh, poor you. You’re the only woman in the room. And she said, in the back of my mind, I was always like, no, that this is what makes me memorable. I’m the only woman here. So, I mean, there are strategies that we can use sometimes when we’re forced into it, but it’s not ideal.  DR: Well, I always look at it that I was given the opportunity as a professional, so I never looked at it to say, Hey, I’m a woman, I need to be treated different.  I have two examples. If I may, 2015, I go for a board interview. It was public company and it was, uh, intergenerational. It was all men, and it was retail. 80% of your purchaser or consumers and retail are women. So they were going to be bringing the first woman on their board. And I walk in and I have my first interview with the CEO, and he says, you know, I’m not interviewing you because you’re a woman. I thought I am 30 plus years into my career here, or maybe somewhere, maybe 25 years. I thought that’s a really odd way to start a conversation, but I thought I was prepared. I reviewed all the documents and I was very curious on the position and the opportunity. So all I said to him was, I’m not here because I’m a woman. I’m here because I can add value to your board, and let’s talk about your strategy? I had a two-hour strategy conversation with him, and I just stepped back and I thought, well, he is probably uncomfortable. He probably didn’t know how to position it, and I didn’t take offense to it. I thought I just came back even stronger. Um, and. AW: Good for you.  DR: And I had to, it was 2015 and I’m like, how is this happening in my career? And then I have one other scenario was I was in venture capital. And I was the only female general partner in that particular office. And we would have meetings, and my colleagues would go to the men’s bathroom. They’d come back from the men’s bathroom, and they’d made a decision. So I started following them to the men’s bathroom, and they started taking notice, and they said to me, what are you doing standing out here? I said, if you’re making decisions in there, then I’m gonna be in there making decisions with you. They did not do that ever again.  AW: Wow. Deborah, you’re ballsy. Well, I had no choice. Oh my gosh. Desperate times call for desperate measures. So I’m gonna guess, is it true that you weren’t always this confident? I mean, it sounds like you were confident in your voice, right? You, you said to this, this, uh, CEO, that I’m not just speaking as a woman, I’m speaking as someone who’s qualified that you basically told these men that it’s not appropriate for you to be making decisions in the men’s room. Early in your career? I mean, were you always this confident woman, or did you evolve over time?  Curiosity, Growth Mindset & the Journey to Board Leadership DR: I think evolution definitely evolved, but I think from a young age. I had an older brother. I have a younger sister. My brother didn’t wanna go to school. I said to my mom that I’ll go to school for him. He didn’t wanna swim. I said, I’ll swim for him. So I guess I had this kind of throughout my life. I wouldn’t say I had as much confidence as I do now, and kind of what I know now versus what I knew back then. But I always had curiosity. And I always, when the door opened, I felt that door opened for a reason. So I’m gonna walk through it. There have been many a times where I fell down and had to pick myself up. There are times where I thought, what was I thinking? And why am I doing this? But I think the confidence really came from just wanting to always be moving ahead, doing something unique, doing something different. But having the base that I’m a professional, I’ve been trained a certain way, I’ve had different situations, and at the end of the day, it really comes down to your inner drive, right?  AW: I’ve heard you use the term curious and curiosity a few times. Can you comment on the role of curiosity in your success and the success of other folks that you see? DR: Well, curiosity to me is something about you have an open mind, you’re curious on something, you’re curious why is this not? And so for me, when I founded Women Get On Board, my curiosity was why are these women always asking me how I got on a board? And this was like going back to like 2009. I started doing slides, and I called them, Women Get on Board, I do these presentations. And I was just curious, well, why do I always get asked this question? And like, I know there’s other women on boards. And so that curiosity really led me to being as an entrepreneur. It’s like, well, how come no one else is doing this? And if there really is this demand, what should I do about it? So that was curiosity for me that really created this platform for Women Get on Board.  And then the curiosity of just opportunity to meet women like you and have conversations. I’m curious when I go on every call that I have and every meeting I have, I’m curious, how did you get to be where you are? What do unique, and how can I help you? So that curiosity is something I guess, ingrained in me. AW: So I was telling you before we press record here, that this morning I did a workshop and I was coaching some women on their branding and their, and their confidence, and we ended up talking about the growth mindset or curiosity a lot and how I have definitely no, I mean, I advocate for, for a growth mindset. I encourage it in myself, in my kids, in the folks that I coach, and I have noticed that most of my clients self-select. They are; they have a growth mindset. They want to improve; otherwise, they wouldn’t be investing in coaching. Right. But there are a few who are less so, and they inevitably are not as successful. Like I, I think there’s a very strong correlation between a growth mindset, curiosity, however you want to, a lifelong learner, whatever, however you wanna label it, and success. So I was curious about, and I’m, I’m not surprised, before I get into the three rapid fire questions, Deborah, I wanna ask you if you could go back to when you were maybe interviewing for your first corporate board role, and then also when you were first starting to attend, uh, these meetings. If you could go back and give yourself some advice, what advice and Yes. I’m asking you this so that other people that are listening can maybe extrapolate. What advice would you give to your younger self?  DR: My younger self, so I have been serving on corporate boards for almost 25 years, and it really came to me ’cause I was in venture capital, and as a general partner, I served on the portfolio company boards. So, by virtue of that position. I ended up being a board member, but post that when I was independent. For me, was doing due diligence, do as much due diligence on the financials, on the people, on the culture, on the industry. And a lot of people feel like, oh, it’s an opportunity. I can’t ask these questions. And I’m like, you have a fiduciary duty to do due diligence, and the company is gonna do due diligence on you. So I would do, I would. Earlier self, do more due diligence. And you know, I don’t know if it was overanxious to get on that certain board or do it, or you knew the people. But I would say, be prepared. Do your due diligence, research, and you know what? Be prepared to say no, say no. This isn’t the right fit for me now, but I know three other women, right? So there’s nothing wrong with assessing an opportunity and saying no. Right. It’s your reputation, it’s your time. Also, know when to leave a board. Um, so always know your exit strategy. Is it the right time? Is management change? Is it situation? So just be really deliberate in why you’re joining a board. So make sure it aligns with all your values, you’ve done your due diligence, and also know when to leave a board. AW:  I think smart for people, even in the positions that they’re taking outside of their board roles. Right. It’s almost like we’re going full circle here, Deborah. You started with the, why am I talking? It’s, and then it becomes like, why am I here? Like you have a purpose. You’re aligning your objectives and your values with those of the organization. You have a purpose, not just for talking, but actually for showing up and for, you know, formally taking that role. Unfortunately, a lot of people are not as thoughtful or purposeful, right? About what they’re doing and why they’re doing it in the moment or generally in their careers.  DR: Well, what I see a lot of too, a lot of women are very want to get on a board and they’re super excited. I’m on a not-for-profit, and then they go on another not-for-profit and another, and really, what I say to them is, why are you not elevating your board leadership? Why you’re not chairing a committee, why you’re not sharing the board because part of that evolution in your board journey is to elevate your board leadership, too, right? So as you develop your skills and your knowledge in the boardroom, you should also want to be taking on those leadership roles. And if you look at the data, less than 8% of TSX-listed companies have female chairs of the board. AW: Sorry, what percent?  DR: 8%. Oh. Wow, that was last year’s data. 8%. So if we’re gonna go, we have a seat at the table, we also should be leaning in and taking on leadership roles. A hundred percent.  Wrap-Up & Rapid-Fire Questions AW: Okay. Are you ready for the three rapid-fire questions, Deborah? DR: Bring it.  AW: First question, are you an introvert or an extrovert? And how does that affect your communication?  DR: Well, I’m sure I won’t surprise you. I’m an extrovert.  AW:  No, I’m not surprised.  DR: And how does it affect my communication? Well, I’m working on listening. Because I have a lot of energy, I have enthusiasm. I show up. I wanna fill those blank spaces. So I have to work on why am I’m talking. I have to work on, so I know I can bring the energy in, but I also wanna make sure that I’m giving space for others and be very inclusive for others to show up and have their thoughts known. AW: Deborah, this is like a masterclass in self-awareness that you’re doing, and actually the very first answer that you had was, was, you know. Ears in, hands out or the listening skills. So you are, um, a testament to self-awareness. Okay. Question number two. I’m actually very curious about this. What are your communication pet peeves?  DR: Oh, my communication, pet peeves are people that talk the talk. But don’t walk the talk. So they can be great communicators. They can be telling you all the great things. At the end of the day, they don’t show up, they don’t deliver. You talked about under-promise and over-deliver. So they have the opposite, over-promise and under-deliver. And so to me, you know, there’s, there’s a style you always observe and you take away. You’ve thought, oh, I really liked how they showed up. So that would be a pet peeve as somebody who just wants to take up space, who wants to be the loudest, wants to be the smartest in the room, but at the end of the day, doesn’t give other people opportunity to speak. AW: Or they’re not doing the work to back up their convictions.  DR: Yeah, and as women, one of the things I have heard as well is we’re worker bees. So when you show up on a board, we might get delegated, like I had that lean-in concept for the special committee, but it was, we were all leaning in, and we all had different areas. But if I was the only one leaning in and it was all men on a special committee, I might have to step back and go, wait a sec, this does not make sense. Right? I think when we show up, we wanna make sure that we have an equal voice and we have influence and power. And it’s not being delegated to be the worker bee, uh, on the committee or on the board. AW: Yeah, a hundred percent. Uh, recently had an episode with Dr. Amy Diehl, who’s a co-author of a book called Glass Walls, and she talks about all of this, including office housekeeping or unpromotable tasks, so you can guess what that is. So you wanna make sure it’s not that, and she said, Andrea, it’s not that you’re not doing those things, but it’s that you’re not the only one that’s doing them. Right. And I think if the same thing goes for all of the work. You don’t wanna be like, oh, good girl, de doing all the work while the guys are doing all the talking. No, no, no, no, no. You’re speaking for your work. And then they’re speaking for their work, not just raising their hands and, and, uh. Whatever, boasting, whatever, whatever vacuous comment it is. Um, okay. Third and last rapid-fire question is, is there a podcast or a book that you find yourself recommending a lot lately?  DR: Can I give you two, please? The one that I read recently, and she has, she’s got her global podcast theory, um, is Mel Robbins, as you know, and she has her book, Let Them Theory. Phenomenal book. It’s about communications, it’s about relationship. And I kind of went in and she has re she’s got it research back. But the real is about setting boundaries for yourself. Let them, so, you know, we all have kids, they’re growing up. Sometimes we wanna do everything, sometimes we have to let them. And then her view is, let them, but then let me, so you as an individual. So it’s really about setting boundaries and communication, and in lifestyle and everything from family to work, to love relationships. It’s, it’s a full gamut. Friendships, friendships, um, why certain friends are in your life today, and then proximity and not necessarily proximity. So, you know, it almost kind of gives you the permission to say. Yeah, I, uh, maybe I don’t have that friendship anymore because I moved away, or maybe I wasn’t investing in it, and it’s okay. I think it was really giving us permission to let them, it’s called the theory. You said there were two, is it because it’s a podcast and a book? Well, I read it in Audibles. Okay. So I listened to it in Audibles. So the other book that just, and you probably know her, Lisa Bragg with Bragging Rights. I know her very well. Yes. You would really speak to some of the work that you’re doing as well, is that whole. Having a purposeful self-promotion. I just heard her speak last week at a women in AI, and you know who one of the award winners were, Andrea?  AW: Yes, I do. Sherry Shannon-Vanstone.  DR: Yes. Uh, Lisa was there, one of the speakers, and it was really enlightening and I hadn’t heard her speak on her book. So then I just said, I’ve just ordered four copies for my friends, and she’s like. Congratulations. Go on Amazon and put some good reviews on. But I liked her approach is really, it is that we as women, we have to be more purposeful in how we self-promote ourselves. AW: So I will put links to Mel Robbins’ book and to Lisa Bragg’s book in the, um, in the show notes. And I’m, I’m not bragging here, but I have to tell you, I’m quoted in Lisa’s book.  DR: So, Andrea, am I not surprised? ’cause I haven’t read it. I just got it. But I’m like, read delve into it.  AW: Yeah. You can see the connection. You can see the connection, yeah. Is there anything else you wanna share with the listeners that talk about, talk listeners, Deborah, about getting on boards, about communicating about your board role or communicating when you’re, when you’re in the board meeting?  DR: I would like to say that it’s a journey. And if I look back over the 25 years, how I showed up 25 years ago versus how I show up now is different. And I think you have to be kind to yourself. A lot of people set these expectations, and they should be this and they should be that, and it’s like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You gotta work your way there. And so it is a journey, and you wanna map it out and each time you take on a new board role or a new opportunity, make sure you’re learning up and you’re going outside your comfort zone. Always be pushing.  Don’t go to status quo. Don’t go back to, Hey, I’ve always done it. You should. It should be continuous learning. So that’s why I’d say it’s a journey. It’s a very fulfilling journey, but be very deliberate and strategic where you put your time and how you value yourself. AW: Thank you so much, Deborah, for your time and for sharing your expertise. I learned a lot from you, and I really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you.  DR: Thank you, Andrea. Post-Interview Recap AW: So many nuggets, whether you’re seeking to improve your communication, or you’re seeking a board position, or you’re a woman looking to establish credibility or perhaps all of the above. Thank you so much, Deborah. Okay, let me share with you now my three key learnings. If you’ve been listening, you know that I am a big fan of the power of three, and it turns out so is Deborah. 1. One is a token. Two is a presence. Three is a voice. So let’s make that the first point. The power of three when it comes to women on boards, one woman on a board is a token, two is a presence, and three is a voice. If you lead a board or a committee, or even just a team, I hope you’ll consider this rule of three. One is a token. Two is a presence. Three is a voice.This is the power of three.  2. The Power of Preparation The second point that I wanna reinforce is the power of preparation. Deborah shared a powerful story about how she asked a CEO something related to a footnote in one of his financial statements. That is preparation, and preparation is key. Preparation can drive your credibility and your confidence. This reminded me of a quote that I heard recently from Janet Yellen, the economist and former chair of the US Federal Reserve. I heard her on a podcast, and she said that she attributed to much of her success to ensuring that she was always the most prepared person in the room.  3. Why Am I talking? Okay. Moving on to the third and last point that I wanna reinforce, Deborah shared this lovely acronym that I hope you’ll remember, and I know I’m gonna remember this. I’m gonna start writing this on the top of all my meeting agendas, it’s wait. Why am I talking? This is about being self-aware. Got it. Well, that’s it. Thank you again to Deborah Rosati for sharing her generous advice, and that’s it. Thanks again to Deborah Rosati for sharing her generous advice to help all of us, especially women, get on boards. And thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode. I hope you’ll share it with a friend, and please subscribe or follow us on YouTube if you’re not subscribed already. Talk soon. The post Women: Get on BOARD with Deborah Rosati (ep.194) appeared first on Talk About Talk.