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  Is Watching Inappropriate Media Cheating? Here’s What You Need To Know 15.09.2026 43dk

  If you searched “is watching inappropriate media cheating” you’re probably looking for clarity. For a woman who has just discovered what her husband has been secretly doing with his time, it feels like a betrayal because it is. It’s a betrayal if her husband is sharing his energy, attention, and loyalty with other women (thousands of them online). This episode is a two-part conversation with experts from the National Center on Sexual Exploitation. This article answers the question: is watching inappropriate media cheating? But it also answers the question underneath it: “Why does my husband’s use of inappropriate media hurt me so much… even if apparently all men do it.” Quick answer: Is watching inappropriate media cheating? In marriage, yes. Because it meets the basic definition of cheating: He is engaging in sexual activities and directing sexual energy toward other people, often in secret, while expecting ongoing intimate access to his wife’s trust, body, and partnership. And your gut response to think that he’s cheating is logical. In fact, it’s how most women feel. I’ve interviewed over 200 women who told me how terrible it felt to find out about all his lies, including his lies about how he’s been spending his time online. Over the last almost two decades, my team has helped over 8,000 women thrive after betrayal. So here’s what we know: Is watching inappropriate media cheating? yes. here’s Why Below is the “wife-brain” list, the one that finally puts words to what you already know. 1) CHEATING IS NOT LIMITED TO PHYSICAL CONTACT WITH ANOTHER PERSON If your husband is pursuing stimulation from searching for and viewing other women online, he’s still directing intimate attention outside the marriage. He may argue “that it doesn’t mean anything” because there’s no physical contact. But your marriage is real and your natural reaction to his choice to pursue arousal with other women is healthy and real. 2) It’s almost always built on secrecy and secrecy is betrayal I interviewed Christen Price, an attorney at The NCOSE and we talked about how the strongest tactic of coercive control is lying to maintain power and a preferred narrative. If your husband has a pattern of using hidden or secret apps, unusual password protected accounts, and deflection, anger, or mockery when confronted, that isn’t him just needing “privacy.” He’s engaging deception, which is an obvious marker when asking, “is watching inappropriate media cheating?” 3) IT UNDERMINES INFORMED CONSENT INSIDE YOUR MARRIAGE Women generally consent to a marriage based on a certain set of sexual boundaries that they expect both partners share. If he’s not staying inside those boundaries (and lying about it), she’s not able to consent, either to the relationship itself or to intimacy in the relationship. She’s being kept in the dark so he can keep living a double life. Because he wants to keep the benefits of the relationship, without staying within the boundaries. That’s not partnership. That’s exploitation. 4) It’s not “just content.” It’s Actually Evidence of Abuse in my interview, Christen defines image-based sexual abuse (IBSA) as the creation, threat, sharing, or use of sexual images/videos without consent or for exploitation. And then she lists what falls under that umbrella: sextortion nonconsensual sharing (often called “revenge porn”) hidden-camera recordings (locker rooms, showers, bedrooms, hotel rooms) “upskirting/downblousing” AI-generated or manipulated sexual images made from real photos harassment using sexual content Here’s the gut-punch for wives: Her husband is watching other women being abused. When a husband says, “I would never do anything to hurt you,” he may believe that he’s not harming anyone because he’s just looking at “images.” But the inappropriate media industry involves the abuse and objectification of women, and by choosing to engage with it, he’s supporting it. 5) IT’S relational infidelity WHEN he’s bonding Sexually WITH SOMEONE ELSE Even if he has no emotional “relationship” with the person he’s aroused by on a screen, if his wife is left with distance, disconnection, and feeling like she’s competing with strangers, that’s infidelity. 6) It often comes with gaslighting: “You’re the problem” Of course a husband using inappropriate media wants to maintain the narrative “I’m a good guy.” That’s why he lies about it. So when women are hurt by these lies, she gets labeled: insecure controlling prudish too sensitive the reason he does it That type of gaslighting is emotional abuse. To learn more and to see if you’re experiencing this type of emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test. 7) It puts wives at real risk, sometimes criminal risk In helping women face this type of betrayal for almost two decades, I’ve heard some chillingly specific stories of husbands secretly recording wives in showers or during sex and posting it for financial gain. This is nonconsensual recording and distribution. Even if you’re husband isn’t doing this, if he’s watching it, that’s what motivating other men to harm their wives or girlfriends. 8) It Teaches Men THAT THEY’RE entitleD TO SEX WITHOUT INTIMACY Even if something is common or deemed acceptable by some people, that doesn’t make it healthy. Melea describes why industries like this resist regulation: they don’t want their profits to decrease. When consumption of inappropriate media is easy, private, and constant, it creates a culture where: women exist for sexualization male arousal is a “need” women’s bodies are commodities Wives often experience the effects of this cultural acceptance as: increased pressure to compete sexually decreased empathy and emotional presence an unwillingness to acknowledge and repair harm And all of these erode the foundation of safety and intimacy that marriage is supposed to be built on. 9) It impacts kids, directly and indirectly Even the most tech savvy husband who thinks he’s keeping it “private,” can’t guarantee that curious kids, with devices on shared Wi-Fi, won’t be impacted his browsing history. He’s not just risking damage to a marriage. He’s risking the emotional safety of your children. Melea Stevens’ board member at The National Center on Sexual Exploitation, talks about a “filter bill”, which creates default safety settings on phones/tablets. WHAT TO KNOW WHEN searching “is watching inappropriate media cheating” Most women search because they feel betrayed, and they don’t realize it’s exploitation. It’s not just cheating, he’s participating in the real exploitation of women and girls. Thinking “it doesn’t hurt anyone” dismisses the real harm done to real people and relationships. If your husband is consuming it, hiding it, minimizing it, and expecting you to live with the consequences of that lie, yes, it’s cheating. And it’s actually so much more. Christen Price and Melea Stevens from the National Center on Sexual Exploitation are on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to clearly articulate why watching it is so harmful to women. Transcript: Is Watching inappropriate media Cheating? Here’s What You Need To Know Anne: I have Christen Price and Melea Stevens on today’s episode. Christen serves as Senior Legal Counsel for the National Center on Exploitation Law Center. She engages in legal advocacy to end impunity for all forms of sexual exploitation. In her role at NCOSE Christen works to influence courts and legislatures. Toward protecting human dignity and equality on behalf of exploitation survivors, as well as resources to stop human trafficking. Through legislative advocacy, litigation, and support for other attorneys. Particularly in terms of trafficking, prostitution, child abuse, and image based abuse. Malea is on the board of the National Center for Exploitation. Welcome Christen. Christen: Thank you so much for having me. Anne: I met Christen in person a while back. She impressed me with her passion for protecting victims. I want to jump straight into talking about image-based abuse. What is image based abuse? Forms of Image-Based Abuse Christen: Image based abuse is a broad term. That includes a wide range of harmful experiences involving the weaponization of explicit images or videos. IBSA involves creating, threatening to share, sharing, or using recordings without the consent of the person in them or for exploitation purposes. So sometimes people call one form of this revenge posting of intimate media, but at NCOSE we try to avoid this term because it implies that the person victimized by it did something wrong to the perpetrator, and that this is some kind of punishment payback. But the reality is that men do this to women for any reason or for absolutely no reason at all. Anne: Right! I’ve spoken to human trafficking survivors who share their experiences with this. When you say men do this to women. This podcast is specifically for women, victims of exploitation perpetrated by men. And so all of our listeners are women. Well, my intent is to help women.We do have some men listeners, but when you say that, does it ever happen the other way around? Christen: It definitely happens the other way around. And also women can victimize other women, men can victimize other men. But the victims are disproportionately women, and the perpetrators are disproportionately men. And I think the figures vary somewhat. In a 2017 US survey conducted with 3, 000 or so participants, one in eight people were targets of distribution. Or threat of distribution of intimate images without consent. Women were roughly twice as likely to be targets of this abuse. Compared to the men in that particular survey. News Highlights Christen: But there was another survey by the Cyber Civil Rights Initiative. And in their survey, over 90 percent of the victims were women, mostly between 18 and 30 years old. So there’s some variation there, of course. That IBSA affects women and girls disproportionately isn’t in dispute. Anne: Because I advocate for women, I appreciate those statistics. And letting people know that this is a woman’s health issue. It’s important to women, especially my listeners. Are there news stories that highlight this issue? Christen: So there is one. It’s significant because it shows the level of impunity people at least think they have when they perpetrate this. They arrested the mayor of a town in Maryland, called Cambridge, late last year. It’s maybe an hour and a half outside of DC where I am. They charged him with 50 counts of non consensual distribution. The CEO and the COO of —-hub, or MindGeek, the company that controls it, have resigned. You know, this is in the wake of years of reporting, but especially over the last two years. Of how their flagship site facilitates and profits from image-based abuse in the United States. In all of its various forms. Anne: When Christen says image based abuse, what I want you to think in your mind is pornography. This is what we are talking about. So husbands who are constantly on their phone looking at this stuff. Would you say all of it, or most of it, is image based abuse? For our listeners who are so traumatized by their husband’s use? Image-Based Abuse Is Happening Christen: So one thing that might be helpful would be to go down the list of the different things that fall under this category. And then you realize, wow, this is what is on sites and drives traffic to these sites. The whole industry, because it is an industry, is a profitable enterprise to exploit other people in this way. This obviously has implications, even for people who don’t end up portrayed on the websites. There’s a sense that exploitative materials use is abusive to people in general, especially women and girls. Because it’s incompatible with their full equality in society. If this is a way they can be portrayed with impunity. It has implications for everyone. Christen: But just to go down the list of the different things that fall under image based abuse (IBSA). One is sextortion, which uses inappropriate images or materials that the perpetrator blackmails the victim. Or coerces them to produce increasingly inappropriate content. So that in exchange, the initial content is not released. So that’s sextortion. Then, this is the one I think most people think of when they hear the term image based abuse. Non-consensual sharing of images. Which is sometimes accompanied by doxxing, which is you share the content. But then you add the person’s name, their address, or other identifying or locating information. Anne: Many women in our community have had their husbands secretly video them in the shower or while they were in their bedroom. This kind of behavior is also what marital coercion is. They did not know. And then he posts that online, and other people watch it as “pornography.” Not knowing that they’re actually viewing abuse. That happens frequently to women in our community. Non-Consensual Recordings & Harassment Christen: Yeah, that’s actually the next one I was going to say, which is non-consensual collecting. Swapping and posting of these types of images in groups or in third party platforms. As you noted, if IBSA is used, absolutely. I mean, they didn’t have consent to take the image, let alone to distribute it. Non-consensual recordings of images or videos of other types of activities, they’re not doing anything intimate. They expect they’re in a private context, like showering in the gym or even in their home or hotel room. So restrooms or locker rooms people put surveillance cameras. We call that downblousing or upskirting. Another form it takes is harassment or assault in virtual or augmented reality. So harassment through direct messaging or assault of somebody’s avatar. Like in a virtual context. https://youtube.com/shorts/mHgIHT2Dtrw Sending unsolicited material, also called cyber flashing. Identity theft, where people take someone’s images to make artificial or photoshopped videos. It’s intended to portray them as though they’re really in it. We call that cheap fake or deep fake. And then pressuring or harassing someone to self generate or share inappropriate images. So it’s quite a variety of offenses that fall under this category. And much of it makes its way onto massive public sites. The Abusive Nature Of Online Exploitative Material Anne: I would say the average user has no idea that it is abusive. In fact, when you educate them about it, they dismiss it. They’re like, whatever. In our experience, listeners of this podcast, you’re hurting our family and marriage. You’re also just flat out watching abuse, and it’s like, no, that’s not how it is. Christen: Do you think people who say that read the tags for the material they’re watching? Because sometimes they tagg it as spycam or locker room or something like that. There’ll be clear indications that it’s not consensual. I’m not saying that’s always the case. But that’s a thing that they to drive traffic. They categorize things. Anne: What I’m saying is they’re like, yeah, it’s a spy cam, but she doesn’t know. And she doesn’t even know it’s online. So why is it hurting her? One thing I have learned about abusers is they do not want to admit they are abusive. They don’t want to call it abuse. They want to call it anything else, because they want to continue to justify their behavior. People call this stuff out there spy cam material, not abusive spy cam material. It’s disconnected. In fact, this was fascinating. I talked to a convicted offender. He was like, wow, his mind was blown. He never thought of himself as an abuser, even though he was a convicted offender. Christen: Wow. Anne: How prevalent is image based abuse, IBSA and who is the most affected by it? Is Watching inappropriate media cheating? yes, and it’s Actually So Much More Christen: It’s impossible to know what percentage of it falls under this, which is one of the big dangers. Because someone taggs it in a certain way. But it’s not necessarily going to be apparent that someone is watching abusive content. Once you put together the fact that this includes CSAM Which is rife on the internet. Anne: When you say CSAM. Our community commonly refers to that for our listeners who don’t know, as CSCAM. I appreciate that NCOSE and many advocates are trying to change that language. Christen: No, thanks for saying that. I meant to include that. It is still called in the law in most places. So that’s an important distinction. It includes extremely violent and dangerous content. Which is pretty obviously harmful, regardless of whether they obtained consent. It includes the type of spy cam and other types of surreptitious recording or non consensually distributed content. So all that is abusive. All of that is exploitive, most of it is illegal in many jurisdictions. Much of what seems to drive traffic to some of these sites is this type of content. A subreddit on Reddit, I think it’s called wife pic, has 250, 000 members. The abuse is prevalent and rampant. It’s a massive risk. Anyone who consumes it chooses to consume someone’s abuse. A Human Being Is Always Objectified Image Based Exploitation Is Abusive Anne: We take the stance at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, people disagree with me, and I don’t care. That all use is abusive, period. It’s abusive to someone, somehow. Someone’s coerced, lied to, manipulated and harmed. That is our stance. So when you’re talking specifically about image based abuse. I think you’re also specifically talking about criminal things. People are arrested for those things. Christen: Yes, or at least sued, in some cases. Anne: With our listeners, the abuse they’re experiencing, the emotional and psychological abuse, is not a “crime.” So they have a difficult time figuring out how to get help. But it is good for them to know that anyone consuming this type of material. Or producing it will have some danger to you. Christen: Yes, there’s no exploitative material in which a human being is not objectified. That’s always present. So much of it is extremely violent and degrading, especially to women. Thinking it’s unharmful shifts the norms and expectations for all women. It’s like basically a form of propaganda. It conditions women to submit to violence rather than resist it, among other things. Women and girls are most affected by it, disproportionately. So especially younger women and girls. Anne: Yeah, here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, even if the wives aren’t the ones filmed, our husbands use continues to affect us. When we think about the victims in image based abuse, and these degrading acts being visible to other people. Where do people generally post them? IBSA Is Posted Anywhere You Can Post Christen: They’re posted anywhere you can post things. Google will index searches for this type of content. I mean, it is everywhere. Some sites specifically devote themselves to sharing non-consensually distributed content. Really all over chat groups and texts. Anne: It’s alarming to think about. Christen: It really is. Anne: Apps, anywhere you can find anything, you can find it. But I would say the public is not. When you’re trying to explain to people why exfoliative material is abusive, what arguments have you found useful? Christen: Thinking about how it works as a tactic, and also thinking about the impact, I make it clear that’s the right category for it. Taking the standard definition of abuse, it’s typically a set of tactics. Usually it’s systematic or calculated. That one person uses to gain and maintain coercive control over another. And it can be physical, emotional, financial or spiritual. Image based abuse fits squarely within that. It’s ultimately about maintaining coercive control over another person. Men have posted things because women wouldn’t go out with them, or because they broke up with them. And when we look at what effect it has on the victims, that also very much tracks with what we understand abuse to be. Anne: Coercive control is the main theme. When it comes to the husbands. They’re doing the same thing, but it’s in a different way. So they’re using coercive control to manipulate, lie, to gaslight to hide their use. So they’re lying to them about their whereabouts. Exploitative Online Imags Are Abusive: Lies & Hipocracy Anne: They’re lying about their use of time or why they’re angry about something. Or they’re trying to gaslight to make sure their wife doesn’t know the types of things they’re doing. Because they want their wife to live in a different reality. But he wants his wife to think he’s a good guy. That he’s a churchgoer, that he’s an upstanding member of society. So it’s that same coercive control to maintain the narrative. I’m a good guy. I’m a good husband. You, wife, you’ve got some problems. And if you would cook better, or if you would be more respectful of me, or if you would appreciate my job more. Then maybe our marriage would be good. That gaslighting happens all the time. And that is why I want to hit home to the addiction recovery community. Or other communities that these men are abusers. They’re not just users. They are abusive to their wives. And it’s important for people to understand. That we’re talking about a specific type of trauma to the women being filmed. Anne: Why is it so important to recognize that this is trauma? And people actually document it and then post it? Christen: Yes, I think it’s exactly what you just said. Their trauma is posted. If I were to sum it up, I would say probably for the three reasons that it’s a really prevalent form of trauma. Trauma & Its Manifestations Christen: Going back to the statistics from earlier, it’s extremely destructive. People usually commit it with impunity. Impunity just means you’re getting away with it. You’re getting away with the thing in a way that is so clear and obvious, you have no reason to stop doing it. Other people watching what’s happening don’t have a reason to not do the same thing themselves. Anne: Oh, this is happening in people’s families too. It’s amazing, the parallels between the two, the impunity with the divorce, or they’re still getting child custody. Christen: Some ways the trauma manifests for the people depicted include high levels of anxiety, PTSD, depression, shame and humiliation, loss of trust and agency. The risk of suicide is very, very high. Some 51 percent of people responding to one survey said they had contemplated suicide due to their experience with image based abuse. It’s also important to note that this is a form of abuse that never ends. Someone else can always share or upload the images. It may never fully go away. It’s an abusive situation, a person may never fully exit. Survivors shared with us that their reputations are completely lost. They’ve lost jobs or had to leave jobs because of the level of harassment directed at them. When people realized it was them in the videos. They’re constantly anxious in social situations, wondering if someone has seen the content. They’ve had family and other relationships destroyed because of this, so it, it really manifests. Like other forms of trauma. Anne: The federal government passed a law against revenge —ography. Federal Law Against Revenge Material Anne: Can you tell us about the law? Christen: It provides victims with the right to sue for non-consensually distributed content. If the person who disclosed it knew or recklessly disregarded the depicted person’s lack of consent. So when it allows people to sue for damages, it allows them to potentially get a temporary restraining order. Or an injunction, basically ordering the perpetrator to stop displaying or disclosing the image. There are some exceptions that I think are a bit concerning about who can bring an action under this law. So basically, there’s an exception called matters of public concern or interest. In my view, it is vague and appears to exclude any possible cause of action if something is deemed to fall within that category. And my perspective on that is famous or well known women shouldn’t be public property either. It doesn’t address the rights of a person if someone is not well known. There was no public interest in appearing in content alongside someone who was. That’s one exception that raises a flag for me. And then there’s another exception related to commercial content. Basically, it means content with people who appear under 30 if force does not produce it, fraud, misrepresentation, or coercion. They would accept that kind of content. In some ways, it means that the websites most likely to be exempt are ones most likely to have people under 30 exploiting younger people. It also exempts the websites and people likely to profit from the display of the content. So if someone ran his own website with younger looking people. He couldn’t be sued by his wife or ex girlfriend for non-consensually posting her images on it. As long as she isn’t coerced to make the video. Image Based Exploitation Use Is Abusive: The Issue of Consent Christen: To me, these are exceptions that are worrisome, and ultimately I think make the law incomplete. But I think it can be useful for some victims to have legal recourse. Anne: When you say consent, that word is just fraught in our community. Because women give their consent to marry, for example. They’re giving their consent to be in a relationship, but that doesn’t mean they give their consent to be abused. When you say, yeah, they consented to participate. But they’re not consenting to be manipulated or gaslit. This law is a he said, she said. Is the consent issue clear when it comes to this law? Or does it get caught in the same kind of rape/domestic violence problems? Where you can’t ever prove it. Christen: It’s a good question. It’s hard to say right now, because no one has tried to use the law yet. I think a lot depends on how judges interpret it, and how it’s actually used. This type of law is not covered in the federal trafficking law, which covers it. The standard for whether something meets the definition of trafficking is whether it features a minor? Or was it produced through force, fraud, or coercion? So in a sense, consent is arguably not a defense if people mean agreement. People can coerce you into agreeing to something. You can be deceived into agreeing to something. If either of those two things are present, the crime is still committed. So I think it remains to be seen if this specific law will take a similar view. Legal Recourse & Coercion Christen: It seems to anticipate that people may produce content through coercion and deception. That’s included in the law. It wouldn’t necessarily let you sue a commercial website, but it would let you sue the person who posted it. So they seem to anticipate coercion as possible in this context, but I think a lot will depend on how things end up being interpreted. Anne: We’ve spent a lot of time talking about this. I know some of you listening are victims of this. Like your own husband has posted things of you, or you’re a victim of revenge ___ography. You’re a victim of abuse in this way. Many of you, I personally talked to you, and you have been afraid to press charges. Number one, because you’re not sure if you want a divorce, you’re not sure if things will work out with your husband. I want to encourage you to do something. The best hope for your husband not to be abusive is to actually account for his crime. Even if you think there’s some chance it will work out. I still think if he were truly changed, truly repentant, truly non abusive, he would take accountability for what he’s done. And so reporting it is an important step. So I know that reporting domestic violence, especially if it is your husband or your boyfriend, is important. It’s a safety issue, so I want to acknowledge that. Resources For Victims Anne: At the same time, there are resources available. Christen: Yes, one of the main resources we recommend is the Cyber Civil Rights Initiative. It’s specifically helpful for victims in the United States. They have a crisis helpline, and the number is (844) 878-2274, and you can talk to a counselor 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. They also have an online removal guide. Which walks people through instructions for how to address content they found on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Tumblr, Google, Snapchat, and other sites. And then they also have some international resources for people in Australia, Brazil, Israel, Palestine, Pakistan, South Korea, Taiwan, and the United Kingdom. Our main recommendation is definitely to contact them. Listeners are also welcome to contact the NCOSE Law Center. We do have a number of lawsuits addressing image-based abuse. Although at the moment, almost all concern child abuse victims. Adults who were minors when their content was posted. We have lawsuits against big suppliers Anne: Many of our listeners actually might be victims and might not know it at all. We are here for you. NCOSE is here for you. And the resources she just talked about are here for you. If you’re a concerned woman and you want to advocate to make this world safer. You need to check out NCOSE at endsexualexploitation.org. Advocacy & Public Awareness Christen: Speaking broadly, there is a market for this kind of content on —-hub and all these other sites. Demand drives markets. So the first thing a regular person can do, especially men and boys, is not consume the abuse. This is a profitable industry. It is driven by the fact that people want to see this stuff. I would also say if you’re in one of the two states that currently don’t have a law against this type of content. Definitely advocate with your local leaders for such a law. I think there’s a need to educate boys and men and the public about this issue in a way that puts the responsibility for it where it belongs. I think that in many ways, as a society, the way we talk about assault has changed for the better. We’re not just telling women to watch out or blame them for not fighting back. You know, we recognize that it’s on men not to perpetrate, and I think the same applies with this issue. We can’t just tell women and girls to watch out or be more careful. We need to teach men and boys not to perpetrate. Part of the importance of this abuse framing is doing that. It’s calling this thing by its right name, calling it by the term that shows how seriously wrong it is. And how seriously abusive to human rights. The Importance Of Safe Homes Christen: And I think that’s a big part of what any person can do with any type of gendered violence or abuse. To call the thing by its right name. I think so often men’s violence against women, abuse of women and girls, is disappeared by how we talk about it. Or the fact that we don’t talk about it. So I think that’s a big thing that any person can do. Anne: I’m reminded of the Jackson Katz quote. “We talk about how many women were raped last year, not how many men raped women.” For our listeners, since they’re not men and boys, the number one thing you can do is get to safety in your own home. The number one thing you can do is learn how to get to safety yourself, and how to ensure your own home is safe. That’s number one. When your own home is safe, the number two thing you can do if you want to get involved is check out the NCOSE Website. They have many campaigns there. You can get on their email list. I’m on their email list. I love it when I get their emails. Things like, sign this petition or send an email to your Senator. And they give you a template of things that you can do. So at least, that gives you some scaffolding to start making some progress. If you want to do something, but you don’t know where to start. The NCOSE website, and they have a summit every year, and getting involved that way is a good way to start making change in the world. Personal Reflections On Abuse Anne: I want to say for me personally, when I was in my abusive relationship. I was so focused on addiction recovery, I didn’t understand it was abuse. So I went down the wrong road for a while. And I was also involved with NCOSE which was awesome. And I loved it, but I spent a lot of time trying to solve the world’s problems. Not at that time to actually get to safety myself. And I have found that I am much more effective in making the world safer when my own home is safe. And it’s impossible to make the world safer, so that your home is safe. It’s much easier to make your home safe first, and then help the world, than the other way around. You can actually literally, within a few years, three to six years, actually make your home a safe place. It takes a long time. It’s hard to learn boundaries. It’s hard to learn these skills, but it is possible. The fight and exploitation that we are all involved in, it’s like a worldwide battle that will take a long time. And so don’t wait for that. Don’t think, okay, well, when, the US passes a law that it’s illegal and my husband can’t watch it anymore, then I’ll be safe. Please do not wait for that. Get to safety now. There is a peaceful and safe place. The Systemic Nature Of Abuse Christen: One final thing from me, it’s just a broader point that I think reflects some of the things we’ve talked about I think the way people often perceive it can follow this pattern. Of the way that the invisibility of various forms of violence and abuse against women is invisible. Whether the abuser is a pimp, a husband, a boss, or a film producer. Violence and abuse are not seen as political, systemic, as an attack against women as a class. And I think it’s important that we identify this as the sort of systemic thing that it is. Because it’s incompatible with gender equality in a society. Anne: It is systemic, because when our listeners try to get out, they go to a therapist, they go to clergy, and they get like, oh, it’s a communication issue, or, oh, you’re just not having it enough. They don’t get, oh, he’s abusive. I went to therapy for seven years with an emotional and psychological abuser who also coerced me. I did addiction recovery for seven years. No one told me I was abused. It is insane. I go to a church with an on the books doctrine and policy that no abuse will be tolerated. And all my clergy were like, oh, he’s such a good guy. They didn’t know it was abuse. I didn’t know it was abuse. Because of that misunderstanding and not labeling it for what it is. Women are continually harmed. And men continually abuse with impunity. And it is absolutely systemic and dangerous, not just for women, but also for men. The Need For Healthy Relationships Anne: Because they can’t have a healthy relationship or have a peaceful, healthy life if they’re abusive. So, the answer for everyone is healthy, non-abusive interactions with other people, and non-exploitative interactions. So thank you for all your work again. I cannot stress enough how important their work is. Please visit their website, endsexualexploitation.org. Anne: Christen, thank you so much for coming on today’s episode. Christen: Thank you so much for having me. Anne: Okay, Melea, you got involved with NCOSE, because you’ve seen young children addicted to online inappropriate material for over 23 years, thanks for talking with me today. Melea: Thank you for having me Anne: Melea lives in Alabama. She’s currently working on passing a bill in her state. We’ll also talk about how you can help protect children online in your location. Can you tell us about what’s going on in Alabama right now? Melea: We worked to pass what we call a filter bill. It’s a bill that would require tablets and smartphones to have the filters defaulted on. One of the names it had was the default to safety bill. We had different names at different points, but a similar bill passed in Utah a few years ago. And we wanted to pass it in Alabama. Several other states are interested in introducing it. One reason we wanted to promote this bill is that we know 47 percent of young children have their first unwanted early exposure on smartphones and tablets. It’s just a common sense protection to have pre existing filters already on smartphones and tablets defaulted on. Versus putting the burden on caregivers and parents to try to go through 30 some odd steps on many devices to figure out how to activate existing content filters. Details Of The Filter Bill Melea: We have Supreme Court precedent that says it is preferable for protections to come at the filter level on devices. We know this bill would be upheld in court. And we’re confident it would be very enforceable. And all it is simply doing is asking that three major companies, Amazon with the Kindle, the Apple products and Google with their products, have smartphones and tablets. That a software update would happen, which is a very simple fix. We’ve talked to software experts who work closely with device manufacturers. They would just do a very simple update that would allow phones activated in Alabama to have the default on instead of off with the content filter. And it automatically has broad based protections for young children, so they’re less likely to stumble across online inappropriate material at an early age. People would say kids will find ways to get around it, obviously, but we were talking about very young children who aren’t even thinking about it that stumble upon this content. And it Is very traumatic to them to not understand what they’re looking at and the way it affects their brain. This gives them extra years of innocence, safety, and protection. I had the honor of speaking to different parent groups. And have spoken to schools and churches in areas where kids don’t have involved parents. And those children, child on child, harmful behavior is rampant in those communities. Parents just hand children devices. They need resources to stop human trafficking and this behavior. No one’s looking for them, and they can become addicted to online inappropriate material and they act out what they see. That’s what children do. They copy what they see. Challenges & Opposition Melea: Then there’s a cycle of abuse happening and a cycle of trauma. So I especially think about those children when I think about this bill. We’ve been excited. We had a great response and had 67 bipartisan co sponsors in the House, and it passed through committee with bipartisan support. We got to the Senate, it passed through committee with bipartisan support. There are people working hard to stop human trafficking and help with this effort. It was poised to be passed through the Senate. But we had one person in the Senate, who refused to allow it on the calendar. It only takes one or two people to set the calendar. They blocked it because a lot of opposition turned up to fight along the way. And that’s been true in every other state. Big tech has been our opposition. And telecommunications companies have also shown up at all our hearings with their lobbyists. Even though our bill has zero to do with companies like AT&T or Verizon. They’re not held liable. It’s explicitly stated in our bill. They would show up, because unfortunately, big tech and telecommunications companies and the industry will sometimes fight common sense browsing protections for kids. And it’s really sad. But that’s one of the things we dealt with. Unfortunately, this gentleman blocked it. We assume there was pressure from lobbyists and one company in particular. It’s Not Just Cheating, It’s Exploitation Anne: They’ll say all kinds of reasons that aren’t real. What’s the reason they don’t want to do it? Is it just simply money, this type of exploitation is sadly about money. Melea: Money is a big factor. We know that historically, Google, AT& T or Verizon, do they get back general profits from online explicit material? Melea: They do, and they have. There is potentially a loss of revenue. Big tech hates regulations. They do not want to be restricted in any way, shape, or form. They don’t want to give up an inch. So I think money, power, and resistance to any form of regulation. To me, it’s a safety feature on a on a car or something like requiring that they have proper antilock brakes on a car, something reasonable. And in this case, it’s just a simple software update. All the technology is there. Anne: I hope this does not sound too political, but I’m a patriot saying, I’m grateful for all the government services we have. We have roads, we have a military, we have things in place to keep us safe. And that’s only something that the government can do, because the government is all of us. So I am so grateful that we have these opportunities to protect us. We need to do that through the government, because nobody’s going to willingly do that. Although NCOSE has worked well with some companies. So that is exciting. They provide resources to stop human trafficking and are helping this bill to pass. Resources To Stop Human Trafficking: The Dirty Dozen List Melea: Absolutely, yeah, there’s opportunity. Companies respond to positive communication and sometimes negative. We have what’s called the dirty dozen list, and name and shame the main promoters of exploitation. We have had tremendous success, because once things are brought to light, it’s been refreshing that several companies have changed their corporate policies and resources to stop trafficking or unwanted exposure to online inappropriate material. This has been a very tooth and nail fight all along the way. The opposition will say, well, you should just be fighting the online inappropriate material, instead of asking the manufacturers to do this at the device level, which I agree. We are like the National Center on Exploitation, and many of our allies are constantly fighting the industry to make changes there. But I wish our government was stepping up in this issue. Because the laws on the books on a federal level would prohibit the production and distribution of hardcore online inappropriate material, which is the majority of harmful on the internet. And also our laws prohibit the distribution of all online inappropriate material, whether soft core or hardcore, from our internet. But our department of justice for many years has not been enforcing federal obscenity laws. That leaves us to tackle this issue of illegal content through corporate strategies and legislation. Through lawsuits, like we have lawsuits against providers that are, we’re winning right now. We’re gutting companies because of lawsuits that we have with survivors. So we’re having to go at it every different angle. Practical Steps & Community Support Melea: And to everyday citizens that want to make a difference and make an impact when it comes to stopping and resources to stop trafficking and exploitation in general. At NCOSE, we understand that you’ve got to go upstream. I don’t know if you’ve heard the analogy of seeing people floating down the river drowning. You rush in to try to pull out as many as possible, and you’re struggling to get as many to safety as possible. And you do this for a long time until you’re exhausted, but you’re not able to get to everyone. Eventually you come to this idea of like, I’ve got to go upstream and figure out who’s throwing people in the river. And so you go upstream and find out there’s someone who’s shoving all these people into the river. And in this case, that’s the industry because today’s mainstream online inappropriate material is highly addictive. It changes their belief system, gives them permission, giving beliefs about consent and buying. People become objects. It’s creating a world of harm. And we know that if we did not have rampant, hardcore material if it was restricted to adult bookstores. Like you had back in the eighties with soft core material. As bad as that was, if we just lived back in that world, that’s what our laws on the book say. Resources To Stop Human Trafficking: NCOSE’s Action Center Melea: Our world should look like when it comes to online inappropriate material in the United States. There should be nothing on the internet, nothing on cable, or satellite TV. Can you imagine how different our world would be if our children could go through their developmental years without exposure to it around every corner? So that’s what we strive for is a shift in cultural expectations. But then there are also practical things we’re doing to interrupt the cycles of things feeding trafficking. So we’d love for them to come to our website. It’s endsexualexploitation.org. And if you go to the action center, you can immediately get involved in helping us stop human trafficking and winning these victories. Anne: I recommend NCOSE because so many people are talking about trafficking these days. And I have a really interesting story that is super alarming. So, one of my friends was on an airplane, and she was sitting next to a man, and they started talking about politics. He said, “I’m voting for this person because of his record on trafficking, because he will protect the children.” Her ears perked up and she was like, oh, really, tell me more about this. He said, yeah, there’s these people are stealing these kids and we’ve got to stop it. And then she said, what do you do for a living? And guess what he did for a living? Melea: What? Anne: He owned a strip club. Melea: Oh my gosh. You’re kidding. Anne: No, so here’s a man who is an actual literal trafficker. He owns a strip club. And he’s talking about this nameless faceless group of people who’s like kidnapping kids when we know who they are. It’s him. Getting Involved With NCOSE Anne: We know who the exploiters are. It’s obvious. Getting involved with NCOSE is so awesome, because it’s clear what’s happening. So that you can say, okay, this particular Senator, he’s the one blocking this bill. We can write to that particular Senator and ensure that this bill gets passed. So I love that NCOSE clears out all the confusion, because at least this man who owned the strip club loved saying, oh yeah, we got to stop trafficking to distract from the fact that he was a trafficker. We need the resources to stop human trafficking, which NCOSE has. Melea: Talk about denial and hypocrisy, or else just a good marketing scheme there, yeah. Anne: That is scary these days. So I love that NCOSE is a very reputable organization that has been around for a long time. Melea: They do their research, and they are careful about the details before they speak out. That’s one reason I’m hesitant as a spokeswoman for NCOSE. I want to make sure I do my best to accurately present the facts, because they have such a high standard when it comes to what they share and do. They’re very intentional and I respect that about them and they will correct themselves if there is something that they find out is inaccurate, but they do things with a lot of integrity and they get a lot done with a very small budget and a small group of people. Anne: Well, that’s the other thing I love about NCOSE. NCOSE’s Credibility & Integrity Anne: Because so many people talk to me about it, they’ll be like, nobody’s doing anything. And I’m like, every year, NCOSE with their dirty dozen list, they make progress. They have wins. And if you’re on their mailing list, you’ll get messages, and it’s so amazing to be part of that, because you can feel the momentum. And as much as this online stuff is this overarching, exploitative, abusive, systemic problem. It affects every woman who listens to this podcast. And so many families all over the world, it’s horrific. It needs to be stopped, it’s an abuse issue. The exploiters, they don’t want people to know that progress is being made. They want people to think it’s a lost cause or fine, and what’s your problem? We should just let this go. Or the alternative, which is, there’s nothing you can do. Melea: They want it to seem that it’s a right and an entitlement, first and foremost. They don’t want people to know that it’s illegal. They want people to feel this is a free speech issue. And it’s not, it’s not protected speech, but you would think that’s the case given everything they do. They have all these organizations that are under misleading names, such as this free speech coalition, various names that make it sound like they’re anti exploitation as well. They have some groups that sound like they’re anti trafficking, that they’re actually the industry putting up a false front to sound like they’re being benevolent, and they’re doing everything they can to undermine decency in society. The Best Resources To Stop Human Trafficking Melea: So you have to do your homework and dig deep when it comes to these issues. A legislator presented this filter bill, just like in our state and in other states. Several groups came in acting like they were, pro family, pro children presenting Trojan horse stills that sounded anti exploitation, and people fell for it. It’s a very sneaky opponent. Thankfully, the law is on our side, science is on our side. As we educate the public about the harms of it on the brain and relationships in society. And as we educate the public about what the law actually says. They become empowered to push back against this evil industry. Anne: And so that my listeners are not distracted by actual traffickers who say, Hey, I want to stop trafficking. So you don’t accidentally support a trafficker. NCOSE is the place to get your information to stop human trafficking. They are trustworthy, they’ve been around for so long, and they do their homework. And they know who the specific people are and talk about specific actionable things. That’s what makes it so effective. Melea: Well, thank you so much. Enjoyed my time with you. Anne: Yes, you too. Thank you.
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  How to Listen to a Podcast and Stay Undiscovered 15.09.2026 42dk

  “How do you listen to a podcast and stay undiscovered?” might seem like an odd question to most people, especially at a time when technology makes access to media so easy. But for women who are in relationships with emotionally abusive men, the answer to that question is often the key to finding the help they need without risking exposure, especially if they share devices, or he keeps track of their browsing history. In this article we’ll cover the following: The basics about podcasts How to listen podcasts safely and privately Recognizing controlling dynamics in relationships How to avoid getting pulled back into his chaos Protecting yourself when systems fail Let’s get started. WHAT IS A PODCAST, EXACTLY? A podcast is typically a short, recorded discussion or interview about a specific topic of interest by a host and guest. For Example: The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast is a discussion for women who have been betrayed by their husbands. Our episodes are released weekly, they’re short (usually around 30 minutes), and you can listened on a phone, tablet, computer, or smart speaker anytime that is best for you. HOW TO LISTEN TO A PODCAST – IN 3 SIMPLE STEPS STEP 1: FIND A PODCAST APP ON A SMARTPHONE Most smartphones already have podcast apps installed for you. For iPhone users: Look for and open the Apple Podcasts app OR download Spotify for free from the App Store For Android users: Download Spotify or Youtube Music from the Play Store These apps are free and they don’t require you to sign up for anything to start listening. STEP 2: SEARCH FOR THE PODCAST YOU WANT TO LISTEN TO Open your app and search for: “Betrayal Trauma Recovery”You’ll see our podcast cover (with Anne Blythe’s name on it). Tap on the show and then tap “Follow” (or “Subscribe” depending on which app you’re using). STEP 3: HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST BY STREAMING OR DOWNLOADING EPISODES You can stream episodes instantly (using data or when connected to Wi-Fi)ORIf you want to save an episode to listen to later, tap the download icon (a little arrow pointing down) Once you’re done listening, you can delete it from the app, so it doesn’t show up in your history. 5 WAYS, HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST WITHOUT YOUR HUSBAND FINDING OUT Here are a few extra tips for women concerned about privacy and safety: Use air pods or headphones to listen while doing chores, running errands, or on lunch breaks. Find btr.org/podcast in an Incognito or Private browser window, so nothing gets saved to your search history. Manually delete your listening history. Most podcast apps allow you to delete your playback or download history manually. Create a separate or hidden folder on your device for the podcast app. Use alone time or breaks to listen. Like a “walk to the mailbox” or “cleaning the bathroom” or folding the laundry, any time alone where you can press play and listen. Even 10 minutes can calm your nervous system and help you feel seen. This is emotional self-care. LEAVING A REVIEW HELPS MORE WOMEN FIND HELP If Betrayal Trauma Recovery has helped you feel less alone, and it’s safe to do so, consider leaving a short review. It helps women find the support they desperately need. Just open the app, go to the podcast’s main page, scroll down, and tap “Write a Review.” THE PODCAST THAT COULD SAVE YOUR SANITY If you’re wondering what’s really going on in your marriage… Or you’ve been blamed for your trauma… If you’ve spent hundreds (or thousands) on therapy that only made things worse… Or your wondering how to recover after infidelity… Start here:🎧 Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast 🎧 It’s for women only. It’s free. And it just might be the first step toward clarity and peace. BONUS: NEED A QUICK PODCAST RECOMMENDATION? Try these listener favorites: The Best Betrayal Meditation To Heal From Infidelity My Husband Won’t Stop Lying To Me – Angel’s Story 3 Ways Your Husband May Be Gaslighting You with Dr. Robin Stern You can find all episodes at btr.org/podcast. TRANSCRIPT: HOW TO LISTEN TO A PODCAST AND STAY UNDISCOVERED Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’ll talk about how do you listen to a podcast and stay undiscovered as you seek help. We’re gonna call her Elinor after Elinor Dashwood from Sense and Sensibility. Welcome Elinor. Elinor: Hey, thanks so much for having me. I’m excited to be here. I found BTR on Instagram. And it really resonated with me. At that time. I was still with my husband. And I would listen to your podcast in my car when I was alone, and it helped me gain clarity about my situation. And start to put some words to the things I didn’t recognize I was experiencing. Anne: How long had you been married when you found BTR? Elinor: 21 years, so a long time. Anne: Yeah, and how many children do you have? Elinor: I have three children with him. Anne: Can you talk about the progression of what you thought was wrong, all the ways you tried to solve it or approach it before you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery and our support group? Elinor: So I guess I always knew he was controlling and wanted things a certain way. Before the pandemic, I started becoming more afraid of him. But things were worse and worse. I thought when the pandemic hit, our marriage was going to get better, because there we were all at home and we were gonna have all this time together, and I thought that would improve it. THINGS ESCALATED RAPIDLY Elinor: Things were really calm at first, but then escalated rapidly within the next few months. Before that, I hadn’t said a word to anybody. I had normalized it. So all kinds of horrific things were just a Tuesday for me. He had told me that we should keep any of our disagreements or problems just between us, and not even tell like our parents or anyone. He’s like, we just need to work this out together. That’s how you solve things. So that really silenced me from telling anyone. During the pandemic, I finally told someone, and they told me that I should speak to my bishop at that time. I was going to, and hadn’t yet, and ended up leaving for the first time. Just fleeing the house with my children, and my littlest didn’t even have her shoes on, and stayed with friends. At that point, I knew something was really wrong, but I didn’t understand. I hadn’t looked up any of this stuff. I hadn’t even searched something basic like, how do you listen to a podcast privately, because I didn’t know I was in an abusive situation. It happened that one of the counselors in my bishopric was a counselor. He talked to me about how I needed to set boundaries with my husband. I was like, oh, yes, that’s going to fix it. I’m going to set boundaries. I was so excited and I ended up coming back, because I was worried that I had ruined my marriage by leaving. And I was so afraid I’d done the wrong thing. I don’t know how to describe it, but I think people in such relationships understand. I felt like I had to be with him. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: SETTING FIRM BOUNDARIES Elinor: Now I realize because he had so belittled me and my opinion of myself, that I needed him to believe that I was worth something, to feel like I was worth something. Anne: That counselor in the Bishopric after that first time you had fled. Did he say, like “You can go back as long as you set boundaries”? Can you talk more about that? Elinor: He was like, if you want to work things out, you’ll have to set very firm boundaries. I had gone back. Right away, the bishop reached out to me. I started telling him all about what was going on, and he immediately called it out as abuse. Which I understand now from a lot of other people’s experiences is rare. And I’m really grateful. Because I didn’t wanna believe myself. Because if it was abuse, I had to change my whole life. Anne: You don’t have to change, but you may need to alter your situation. Elinor: Yes, drastically. Anne: Which is daunting. Elinor: I’d met him right after my 18th birthday. He was my first serious relationship and I didn’t have a lot to compare that relationship to, which now I tell my children, date a lot. Date that person for a long time before you get engaged to them. We dated for a few weeks, and he was quite a bit older than I was. He was seven years older, and he seemed so confident and charismatic. I thought this was like true love, and he was wonderful. I see now, he was abusive from the get go, but I didn’t recognize the red flags when they were glaring in my face. MY FRIENDS AND FAMILY DIDN’T LIKE HIM Anne: Yeah, how did he present to other people? Did they think he was a good guy? Elinor: I thought they did at first. But I can say that now that I’m out on this side and have talked to a couple of friends, they did not like him. My parents did not like him. My dad said he is a very proud man, which was strong verbiage from my dad, who’s a very gentle soul. Anne: That’s as intense as your dad would get. I think when someone’s married to someone, they don’t wanna throw someone’s spouse under the bus. ‘Cause it’s like, how is that going to help her to think her husband’s a jerk? And I’m like, it would help her. I promise it would help her. They also don’t wanna alienate her. Because they think if you say your husband is a jerk, that you’ll be like, well, then I’m not gonna talk to you. And so it’s a really hard place to be for an outsider. To wanna support your marriage, but then also want to support you. It’s really hard to figure that out. For women in situations like yours finding out how do you listen to a podcast safely and getting the right information is vital. How did you feel finding out that other people didn’t like him? Elinor: In some ways I wish they had told me, but I see for myself that I wouldn’t have believed them at the time. I was so excited about my new husband, and I thought everything was so wonderful. If they had told me he was a bad guy, I would not have listened, and I would’ve been like, something’s wrong with them. They think so badly of him. THE CONSTANT HAMSTER WHEEL OF PROVING MYSELF Anne: They’re so judgmental. Something like that, maybe. Especially if he’s set that up. A lot of abusers like this, they’ll say something like, people don’t understand me. Or, people are so judgmental. They see that I do this thing, and they assume I’m a jerk, but I’m a good guy. They set it up like this on purpose. We don’t know that, because they’re lying. And if anybody says that, then you’re like, oh yeah, he warned me that people were gonna say this. Elinor: Yes, he said he’d had other relationships before, and he felt like trust was a big deal. And right away he was like, it’s important to me that you trust me implicitly. And now I know trust is to be earned. But when I was so young, I just thought, oh, I need to show him how I trust him. And that became several decades of me trying to prove that I trusted him. I think some hallmarks of the marriage were, kindness must be earned. Which is absolutely wrong, he was always carroting things out. If you do this and this, then I’ll do this. I felt like I was on this constant hamster wheel of proving myself, proving I loved him. He would often use the term, if you love me. If, that is insidious if. Anne: One of the message strategies in the Betrayal Trauma Workshop Is to agree. I love it in this scenario, because of course, he’s gonna say, “you don’t love me. If you love me, you would…” They do that to manipulate us, but we don’t realize that. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST WHEN COUPLE THERAPY ISN’T AN OPTION Anne: So if he says, “You don’t love me.” When we agree and say, “That’s a good point. I hadn’t thought about that. Let me think about that for a little while. Thanks for bringing that up.” It changes the whole dynamic. Because then it’s hard for them to manipulate you. When you don’t respect me. “I don’t? Oh, I might not.” Elinor: It flips the tables, doesn’t it? Anne: We respect them with our actions, because we’re deferring to them and making sure dinner’s ready. When he says, “You don’t respect me,” we’re thinking, “of course I do. I clean up the house. I tell people nice things about you.” Because of all your actions, you respect him, but in your mind, something’s wrong. In our minds, we’re suspicious. They know how to use that Catch 22 against us. And that’s why safe, private access to information matters so much. Some women are still at the stage of quietly asking, “how do you listen to a podcast” because they need help, but they also need to stay undiscovered.Did you guys ever try couple therapy? Elinor: No, I knew inside my head that it would not work for us. He had told me, “The only way I would ever go to couple therapy with you would be for the couple therapist to tell me that I should divorce you.” Anne: Wow, so he didn’t wanna go to couple therapy. The way he manipulated you to not go, which actually worked in your favor, you just didn’t know that. ‘Cause the couple therapy would’ve been worse. But was to say, we’re going to couple therapy, and the couple therapist will tell me to divorce you. And that was his way to manipulate you not to go to couple therapy. Elinor: Uh-huh. DISCOVERING SIGNS OF ADDICTION Anne: Wow, I have never heard that one before, by the way. That’s a new one. Were you aware of pornography use, affairs? Elinor: When I finally told someone about his behavior, they were like, “Oh, have you asked is pornography an issue?” So he’s staying up super late. His door’s always closed. He’s upset, all the classic hallmarks. And I was like, oh, of course he’s not. But I’ll ask him just in case. Anne: Whenever someone says, “Did you talk to him about?” I’m like, they’re going to lie. So don’t ever tell someone, did you ask him about pornography? That’s never gonna help. But you didn’t know that at the time. So you asked him? Elinor: He’s like, “Oh yeah, I did look at pornography. Sometimes I do that, but it’s not a big deal.” And I was like, “Well, when did you start doing that? Has it been going on during our marriage?” It sounded like from his description, the entire marriage. And then I was starting to be worried, “So maybe is a portion of our marriage you didn’t use pornography? Is there maybe a gap somewhere that I could base the behavior with the behavior without?” He mentioned one 18 month gap in the entire 20 something years of marriage where he hadn’t used. And I was like, “That sounds like an addiction.” And he was like, “Oh no, it’s not addiction. I could quit anytime.” HE WAS PROUD THAT HE KEPT ME FROM SEEING THE TRUTH Elinor: And then I knew it was. I’m like you could quit anytime, right? So why haven’t you? I didn’t ask him that. At that point. I was like, oh wow, we’ve got a deep addiction here. I didn’t see anything he used. He was proud that I never saw anything. I remember asking him, ” Where are you looking at these things? Like where are you finding them?” And he was like, “You’ll never find out.” He had that little side smirk smile. And I never did, but that just sickened my soul. When he gave that answer, he was proud of it. And he was not sorry. He was not in any way taking any responsibility for its effect on anyone else. And he never did. I realized I needed to know how do you listen to a podcast undiscovered, for my emotional safety. I thought maybe if we solved the “pornography” problem, our relationship would improve. Now I have something to point at, oh, it’s this. That’s what the problem is. And as I talked to my bishop about it, I remember sitting in his office just shaking and shaking. That shook my whole world, ’cause I believed he was faithful to me. I consider pornography deeply unfaithful. Anne: My book is coming out soon, explaining why he was lying all the time to everyone and proud of it. And probably because he was such a liar, he was doing other things that you didn’t find out about either. That you may find out later. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: WHEN HE PULLS YOU BACK IN Anne: Are you divorced now? Elinor: I’m still in process. Yeah, it’s gonna be long and ugly. Anne: Those of us who have been divorced for a long time. It’s almost been 10 years for me right now. We find out stuff like years later, it’s pretty crazy. You’re like, what? I thought this was what was happening, and then you find out somehow that it was something different. It’s like the truth finds you. I bet you’ll find out a lot more as things progress. When you know how do you listen to a podcast for help. Elinor: I read it takes an average of seven times to leave an abusive relationship, and how there’s just gravity that sucks you back in the hoovering, right? But when I read about that, I thought it would never be me. I wouldn’t go and come back and go and come back, but oh my goodness, it was me and the “hopium” that things were going to change, that it was going to get better. It really pulled me back. The first time I left, I was gone for three days and then, okay, so this is terrifying. He hunted me down and found us in a different town, which is super creepy. I didn’t immediately go back. And he was like, I am so sorry. Which is a big deal, because the rest of my marriage, he was never sorry, never. Things happened, he would make me apologize for it. I would beg, there would be silent treatments. I would have to do physical punishments to make up for it, and we never talked about it. So they just got shoved in the back of my mind, all the horrible things that happened. IT WAS BETTER FOR TWO WEEKS Elinor: There was no acknowledgement. When I left the first time, he was down on his knees when he found me and said, “Oh my goodness, I’m so sorry.” I was like, oh, wow, he finally admits he’s been so angry and so crazy, and life has been horrendous, and the children are afraid, and I am afraid. And he was like, everything’s gonna be so much better. He of course promised the whole world, I believed him. I went back the next day after talking to my clergy and trying to set some boundaries. And the next two weeks were amazing. He was so great. I was like, wow, this has changed. Our marriage is gonna be so much better. And it was better for two weeks. And then it was worse than ever. These stories you read about where people say, “Oh, if you go back, it’s gonna be worse.” I can 100% testify if you leave and come back, it’s going to be worse. I left and went back three times, and it was definitely horribly worse each time. And each time there was a section of time where he was so much nicer for a little while, and then he would make me pay for it later. It was just sickeningly awful. I kept my bag packed, because my friend had warned me sometimes this behavior doesn’t keep. Sometimes they don’t change. They just want you to believe they’re gonna change. Oh my goodness. It didn’t keep, and I started not being able to sleep, not being able to eat. I LEFT again, but MISSED HIM AND WANTED TO GO BACK Elinor: Probably the knowledge of just finding out my husband has been using pornography for 20 years, like the sickening awareness that my husband was betraying me for so long. Then I left again, because his behavior was horrifying, and he actively tried to turn the children against me. I flew home to my parents. That time when I left, my bishop’s wife actually came and helped us leave. We escaped down the basement door during a rainstorm. It was pretty traumatic, especially for the children. I needed help. I learned how do you listen to a podcast and stay undiscovered, for our safety. After learning more I thought, well, I’ll never come back. I stayed with my family and missed him. Then I started second guessing myself on everything. I thought, oh, I’ve just misunderstood things. He always told me I misunderstood things and that I was stupid. Lots of things don’t make sense to me because of the way I am. That’s what he would say. Only I know that’s not so now, but I wanted to go back. At that point my oldest child would not come back with me. She was like, Mom, don’t go back to him. And I was like, but we need to keep our family together. And she sat in the bathroom and cried for two hours and wouldn’t come out. I should have learned more from that. But I thought, “well, we’re gonna make this so much better.” But no, she never did come back. She was 18 and she just lived on her own after that. Which must have been so incredibly hard, and my heart breaks for her. She knew she would write me, and say, “Mom, when you’re ready, come be with me.” HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: WHEN HE’S STILL ABUSIVE Anne: I think what was happening was all the abuse was still in your head. And you didn’t know that it wasn’t your own thoughts, it was all his abuse, and he was still abusing you. Elinor: Yes. Anne: Even though you were away from him. People don’t understand that. You’re still being abused. So it takes a while for the abuse to drain out of your head, and you have to be away from it in order for that to happen. It wasn’t that you weren’t ready. You hadn’t learned to separate that out. You were in the early stages of learning safety steps like, how do you listen to a podcast and find help online. And the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, has a way to write down what your thoughts are, and then to realize they’re actually not your thoughts. They’re the abuser’s thoughts. That’s helpful for victims. This story haunts me. And the way I came up with some of these workshop strategies comes from this. A woman was like, I will separate from my husband. I feel right about it. She’d prayed about it a ton. She could see all the abuse. She was like, check, check, check. He’s abusive. And she went to the temple, and she came out and said, the spirit told me I needed to stay with him. Elinor: Oh my gosh. Anne: She felt so strongly about it. And I was like, who am I to say that’s not the spirit? But I started wondering, why are women thinking that the spirit tells them to stay in proximity to evil? And then, over time, I realized it’s because the abuser’s abuse is so tangled up in their head that everything feels bad. THE THOUGHT OF LEAVING FEELS TERRIBLE Anne: So when they think about leaving him, it feels really bad, and that doesn’t feel like the spirit. It feels like something else. So you’re like, every time I think about leaving, I feel terrible. And so those who want to follow the spirit and the spirit is peace. The spirit is calm. When we think about leaving, it doesn’t feel peaceful. It doesn’t feel calm. And nobody warns you about that. They’re like, follow the spirit. And you’re like, “Okay, well the spirit is not telling me to leave. ‘Cause every time I think about leaving, my body’s like, no, that’s not right.” And your alarm system is going off. Really what’s happening is your alarm system is going off. It’s telling you danger, danger, danger. But he hijacked it long ago. And so he’s twisted your own internal warning system to tell you to move closer to him rather than away. So you’re just trying to do what the “spirit” is telling you to do, in that moment. So to help explain it to a woman when she’s in that, is what the Betrayal Trauma Workshop is about. Something as simple as learning how do you listen to a podcast safely, can lead to finding help. Yeah, so that she can see the difference between his lies and her actual warning system and what it’s been warning her about. Because they’re so good at manipulating us that they know how to use even our own survival mechanisms against us. Elinor: That is so true, that feels really true to me. IT FELT WRONG TO BREAK UP OUR MARRIAGE Anne: Yeah, so you weren’t doing anything wrong. You just didn’t know what you didn’t know, and you didn’t wanna go against what you thought in the moment was the truth. Elinor: Yeah, definitely, it felt wrong to break up our marriage. I still hadn’t fully admitted to myself how deeply abusive he was. And I kept thinking, oh, we’re gonna make this better. I was so beaten down about every aspect of myself because of all the things he said and did. That I didn’t know who I would be without him. And in my mind, believed that without him, I was lost and worthless. Which obviously is not true. But I felt that way at the time. So I went back and then I stayed there with him for the next year and a half. And my bishop kept checking in on me. People would check in on me, like people knew it wasn’t good, and they were trying to help me, but I wouldn’t go. ‘Cause I’m like, this is my marriage. I’m going to save it somehow. I studied all sorts of psychology things, like I wondered what sort of disorder he might have. Went down all the rabbit holes and had to stop. I left again the third time with my parents’ help, rented a house and lived separately. and stayed separate from him for a couple of months. I actually had a protective order for a few weeks, trying to keep us separate and safe. He was doing all sorts of things, psychologically and spiritually. Just on every single level of abuse. The Moment I Realized How Bad It Really Was Elinor: I had started keeping a journal for my own sanity about what was happening. And I’m glad I did, because one of the things I told myself was, oh, he’s not doing these things very often. But when I started writing it down, I realized he was grabbing me by the throat every two weeks. Every two weeks he would do that, and he had groomed me for this. He just groomed me probably on every level. Learning how do you listen to a podcast and finding yours was so helpful. But with this whole throat grabbing, he would call it holding my throat. Obviously, this is choking, right? But that’s what I would call it. He holds my throat. And when I would tell people about it, they would just be horrified. But to me it was another Tuesday. When he would grab my throat, he would make me say things and do things. And obviously when someone is holding your throat, you just do what they say. And he would make me repeat things. He would say, “Tell me that I own you.” and I would have to repeat these horrible things. And before I left the third time, it was becoming so overt. He was like, “Tell me about how stupid you are. How stupid are you? Go ahead, humble yourself. Say it out loud.” And I would mumble out the words, because it sickened me. It felt so wrong. And I would say, ‘I’m stupid.” He would say, “Go on, say it a little louder. I couldn’t hear you.” And I would say, “I’m stupid.” He was like, “Go on, say it like you mean it.” I would find myself repeating these horrible things over and over and over again. HOW TO LISTEN TO A PODCAST AND PROTECT YOURSELF Elinor: The psychological abuse is so disturbing. Then right before I left with that protective order, I woke up one night and he was holding me by the throat while I was sleeping. It was hard to breathe, and I just laid there, stock still. I think if anyone else had been in this situation. They would be screaming and like, oh, let go of me, stop it and you have this reaction. But I had been in this so long, I knew I must hold very still. I must not say a word. And then hopefully he will let go, because I knew if I tried to fight against it, it would get worse. Anne: I disagree with you, anyone who’s been through what you had been through would’ve stayed still too. Elinor: Okay. Anne: A hundred percent. What you did sounds totally normal under the circumstances. We know about abuse, and share it so others can learn. Elinor: That’s self preservation. Anne: Yes. Elinor: A lot of the things that I did sound so wackadoo to me now, like they just sound like nonsense. But I appreciate that you understand that’s exactly what you have to do in those circumstances. Just to stay safe. Anne: Yeah, to survive. Elinor: Yeah, my children sometimes talk about how people say, “Oh, you should have done this and you should have done that.” And they’re like, “Sometimes you say it too, Mom, now that we’re out. Like, if I was there again, I would’ve done this, or I wouldn’t have done that.” And they said, “No, we never would’ve, because we all knew it was going to get worse. We all felt that undercurrent of like he was holding back.” I HADN’T RECOGNIZED PHYSICAL ABUSE Anne: That is the manipulation. I think people don’t understand that is the abuse. That you know instinctively that you can’t do that or you’re going to be very injured. Anybody would do that. I look back at what I did and think, what is wrong with me? I would do the opposite. He’d be physically intimidating, like he was gonna punch me in the face, and in my mind I’d be like, let’s see if I could make him punch me in the face. And so I’d push through it. I thought, if he punched me, I would know. Elinor: Yeah. Anne: So I’m pushing through, and he never punched me in the face. So then I was confused. Wait, I guess he’s not abusive. That’s the hard part about it. He could punch you in the face. He could not punch you in the face. Either way, it’s abuse. Elinor: That was one of the things I recognized from your podcast. When I learned how do you listen to a podcast safely, different kinds of things surfaced that I hadn’t recognized were physical abuse. Obviously the throat holding, but like there was a ton of sexual abuse and coercion that I had not put in the physical abuse box. I think many people do this. I categorized, punching and hitting, and like, oh, he pushed me down the steps. That would be physical abuse. But there were so many other things he did that were physical abuse that I learned from listening to you and the people on your podcast. That I was like, oh he’s doing all these things and more. He is physically abusive. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST FOR SAFETY WHEN SYSTEMS FAIL Elinor: Like it’s not when he’s gonna be physically abusive. He is now, and he doesn’t always need to get to the next point for me to step in line with what he wants. He just does as much as he needs to, to control me. Which was very effective. Anne: Yeah, it’s scary. Elinor: Yeah, I feel really blessed that we are on this side of it now. I’m glad I know, I’m glad I do not have the desire to ever go back. The third time I left with a protective order. Both times my protective orders failed. I’d have ’em for a couple weeks, and then I would go for the full protective order, and I could not give enough evidence to prove what had happened to me in the eyes of law. And that was so frustrating and demoralizing for me, because all these physically abusive and terribly scary things were happening. But during a six hour court hearing. There just wasn’t enough evidence, the judge said, to bring a protective order against him. And of course, he was so good at presenting himself. He came in not looking like the “abuser”. He presents like a first class citizen, well educated, active in his church and a pillar to the community. And it was so believable that the judge was like, well, he seems like a great guy, and you seem like a great person, and you guys just need to work it out. And that was so heartbreaking for me to tell my story in court in front of other people and policemen, and just such a terrifying environment. Your podcast and learning how do you listen to a podcast would have helped me. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST FOR SUPPORT WHEN YOU AREN’T BELIEVED Anne: And have them not believe you. Learning how do you listen to a podcast and finding ours for support could have helped prepare you. Elinor: Not believe me. Anne: That is a nightmare. Elinor: Yes, and to do that twice and still not be believed. I was grateful at the end of the first court hearing, not joking, six hours. There was a recess for lunch in the middle, it went on so long. The lawyer had told me they averaged 10 to 20 minutes, and I sat through several, and that is how they average six hours. At the end, after the judge dismissed it, and I am just in tears. This lady had to sit through all my court, came up to me, and she was like, I wanna tell you something. I believe you.” That meant the world to me to have her believe me. Because at that point, it’s hard enough to believe myself. It’s hard enough to get up there on the stand and be cross examined, but to have the judge throw it out. The second one was three hours. I knew it would be long. Anne: Was it the same judge? Elinor: Different judge, different state. Anne: What? Elinor: He presents so well. He is so believable, so charismatic, and he knows how to present himself as this wonderful guy. Anne: Also, his abuse of you doesn’t leave marks. I mean, he might, “hold your throat”, but it didn’t leave a bruise. Elinor: ‘Cause he knew when to stop. everything was behind closed doors. There was never a mark, like you said, there was nothing to go to show someone. FLEEING THE HOUSE FOR THE LAST TIME Elinor: I remember my daughter at one point telling me, “Mom, I just wish he would hit you. I don’t want you to be hit.” But she was like, “What can we say that he’s doing? If he hit you, we could say he hit you, but everything else he does is right at the edge.” She was like, “I wanna call the police, but I don’t know what I would say when they got here.” And we all know he would’ve just turned the tables on me entirely. Anne: A hundred percent. Elinor: After the protective order failed, we ended up fleeing the house with a couple of suitcases and our library books. Which I was somehow worried were gonna be overdue. That’s my brain. We lived in hiding and started the whole court process, which is an absolute nightmare. The post separation abuse, the court abuse, it’s like a stress ball. You squeeze it one way, it’s gonna come out somewhere else. His abuse just pops up in all sorts of creative ways, he just doesn’t stop. Learning how do you listen to a podcast helped keep me focused on our safety. The children in two years have not been able to access their clothes, their toys. There’s a court order saying we should be able to go get our stuff. He placed logs across the driveway, so we couldn’t drive up. I hope to be divorced from him someday. I’m glad to hear that you are now 10 years divorced from your abuser. I hope for that for myself and my children too. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: THE LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL Anne: There’s a light at the end of the tunnel, and when people told me that, I was very mad. Because it didn’t feel like that. I was like, my whole life is ruined. I will be in this tunnel the rest of my life. Then post-divorce, when I experienced continued emotional and psychological abuse, due to his “co-parenting”. Take our free emotional abuse test to determine if you are being abused. So I was divorced, and he was still wreaking absolute havoc on my life and my children’s life. It felt like torture. I’d say in my case, and I want to stand up for abuse victims everywhere. ‘Cause you did the right thing. Teach people how do you listen to a podcast to get help. You thought you should do at the time, and it makes total sense. You’re trying to survive. But to outsiders, they’re like, why did she do that? In my case, I did everything right. So for me, I always fought him. Or I was like, no, you’re not doing that to me. I did everything “the right way”. So an outsider wouldn’t be like, “Well, why did you do that?” Because I did everything right. The weird thing is they blame you for it, even if you do it right. So it’s a trap either way, because I got a protective order and kept it and didn’t break it, and the second it was going to expire, I got another one. So I had a six year protective order that he was still able to abuse me via co-parenting messages. When I went to court to try to take custody away. I had 40 pages of documented physical abuse and other abuse. It didn’t make a difference. IT DOESN’T MATTER IF YOU DO EVERYTHING “RIGHT” Anne: So being the person who “did everything right” and still couldn’t get help. That’s why I’m like, I have to stand up for abuse victims all over. Because it doesn’t matter if you’re doing everything “right”. The victims who are not doing it the way other people think they should. That’s not why they’re being abused. It’s still not their fault. It has nothing to do with them. So the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop really came out of my absolute frustration that somebody like me could do everything right and still be forced to be abused by the court system. The system was supposed to protect me. ‘Cause at some point I was like, God is the only way out of this. As a Christian, I was like, Christ is the deliverer. As I studied deliverance and the scriptures, the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Strategies came out of that. And for women who aren’t women of faith, these are secular strategies that work no matter what, and people don’t have to pray for them to work. They work great, period. ‘Cause a lot of women have been really spiritually abused, and they don’t wanna pray. And I don’t blame them. So I’m like, these work no matter what. You can learn how do you listen to a podcast and get help. That’s where the strategies came from, and they delivered me completely. He signed the kids away. In some cases, they don’t actually physically sign the rights to the kids away. He did out of court, but some of ’em just start leaving you alone. I don’t ever recommend that women take men like this to court if they’re not in court already. You’ll see when you take it. Elinor: Glad to hear that. HE CONTINUES TO DRAG THIS OUT Anne: ‘Cause court usually works in their favor. Even if you win after five years and spend $250,000. That’s not a win. You were just abused for two more years, and you’re in debt, like you just bought a house that’s not a house. Elinor: The lawyer bought a house. Anne: Exactly. Elinor: I participate in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop, because I definitely need extra tips. Like right now in this legal side of it, I am drowning. Last year, I felt so hopeful, just finally being away. The gratitude and freedom like not missing him was so awesome. And this year, I thought we’d be divorced by now. I thought I would be free in more ways. And, oh no, that’s not his plan. He will continue to drag this out. So I am really glad to hear about more tips. I need them. Anne: Would you mind coming back? And let me know how it’s going. Elinor: I would love to. Anne: For women who are maybe listening, like you did in your car, if someone’s listening and maybe they’re in the same boat you were, where their body is screaming out, don’t leave. That seems really unsafe. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST: I KEPT PRAYING FOR CLARITY Anne: Do you have any words to share with them? Elinor: I appreciated the things you shared when I knew how do you listen to a podcast and listened to yours about asking yourself, are you safe? And getting yourself to a safe place before you make that decision about them. That helped me. I started asking myself, am I safe? Am I in a place where I can feel peaceful enough to get an answer? It was so crazy in my home. I kept praying for clarity, but you can’t get clarity in that kind of situation. I just kept praying and praying, and it just didn’t come. When I finally did leave, that’s when the clarity came. I look back now and I’m like, I just wanna give myself a huge hug and be like, girl, it is okay. You didn’t know what you didn’t know, and you did the best you could with what you had then. And you wanted to keep your kids’ lives together and keep them safe. One of the things that I read somewhere that really helped me make the decision to go though, was that children witnessing domestic violence is child abuse. That was really powerful for me, and I was like, oh my gosh, my poor children. There was so much behind closed doors, but they could feel it. The things that I hear from them now about what they felt and what they saw and heard that I didn’t think they had experienced, oh, my heart for these little ones. IT’S HARD TO KNOW WHAT TO DO Elinor: I wish I could just give all the people experiencing the kinds of things that I’ve experienced and many other women have experienced. I wanna give them a huge hug and say, it’s going to be all right. And ask them to be kind to themselves. Because we’re second guessing, we’re living in such fear. It’s hard to know what to do. I’m just looking back on myself and giving myself a lot of grace and saying, “You did great. You left, good job.” Anne: Yeah, and I think it helps women to hear somebody like me say, I did everything right and still couldn’t get out. If you know how do you listen to a podcast, you can hear other’s stories. Elinor: Oh my gosh, yes. Anne: Because then it’s like, oh, it wouldn’t have mattered how I acted. He was going to abuse me, and the way the system is, the way everything is getting to safety, is very difficult and miraculous. So there’s nothing that any of us could have done better under the circumstances. At the same time, there are some principles that had we known them. But nobody tells us. So it’s still not our fault. We didn’t learn about it in high school. We didn’t learn about it in college. There is no therapist out there. That has the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Strategies. I’ve never heard anybody say it. It’s not anything like I’ve ever heard. ‘Cause all anybody else has is don’t talk to him at all, and you’re forced to talk to him. So that’s not helpful. HOW DO YOU LISTEN TO A PODCAST LED ME TO THE LIGHT Anne: And, communicate better. Elinor: Oh yeah, the communicate better is such a bunch of garbage. When you’re dealing with this kind of person who’s going to use all communications against you. Anne: Yeah, so either way it’s a disaster. Well, I’m proud of you. You are brave and strong. And you’re incredible. There is a light at the end of the tunnel for you, even if it feels like there’s not. I always have to say that. ‘Cause every time somebody said that to me, I was so mad at them that I was really frustrated and wanted to tell them they didn’t know what they were talking about. If you’re feeling like that, I totally get it. And in that case, I’ll just sit here in the dark with you. It’s okay. People may recommend listening to a podcast, and you may not know how do you listen to a podcast, but taking that first step could be the one thing that helps the most. Elinor: Thank you so much. Anne: Until the light comes to you. Elinor: Thank you, Anne: Thank you so much. Elinor: Thanks for having me.
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  Marriage Therapy for Infidelity? The Risks You Need to Know 08.09.2026 38dk

  By the time many women find Betrayal Trauma Recovery they’ve already been through years of couples counseling, addiction therapy, or programs focused on marriage therapy for infidelity, hoping a professional will help them finally piece together what really happened. Therapists in recovery programs sometimes use a tool called a therapeutic disclosure to guide the couple to the “whole truth” about a husband’s history of addiction, secrecy, and infidelity. But these disclosures take months, even up to a year to complete, leaving his wife waiting on more information about the betrayals, being re-traumatized by each new revelation, and potentially exposing her to more lies and emotional abuse. To see if any of the things he’s disclosing qualify as emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse test. 5 WAYS MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY DELAYS EMOTIONAL SAFETY 1. Marriage Therapy for Infidelity Often Starts WITH THE WRONG QUESTION Marriage therapy for infidelity often starts by focusing on “why” a husband lied and cheated, even going so far as to frame it as a “marriage issue.” In this case, the betrayed wife is asked to patiently wait through her husband’s process of feeling safe enough to tell the truth. The first question a therapist should be asking is what his wife needs “right now” for emotional safety. 2. Manipulation OFTEN ContinueS Inside Marriage Therapy for Infidelity Marriage therapy for infidelity isn’t a good fit for couples when a husband has lied to and manipulated his wife to hide his infidelity, because his choice to do those things is an individual character issue. If he hasn’t made any effort before now to admit this, to accept the consequences, or repair the harm his choices caused his wife, it’s likely that he’ll just continue his pattern of manipulation in therapy. 3. Therapeutic Disclosures in Marriage Therapy for Infidelity Can Miss the Real Problem: Emotional Abuse Infidelity involves lying, manipulation, coercion, and control, which are all forms of emotional abuse. Emotionally abusive men aren’t abusive simply because of trauma or shame. Abuse is a choice. Because therapeutic disclosures often keep women in close proximity to emotional abuse, it’s important to understand how manipulation can continue during the process. Abusive men often use “trickle truth,” revealing small pieces of information over time. What looks like honesty can actually be a calculated way prolong his manipulation and control of the situation. The therapist and his wife keep chasing reasons while the abuse continues. In situations like this, it’s often safer for the betrayed wife not to participate in the abusive partner’s therapy process at all. 4. Marriage Therapy for Infidelity Can Teach a Manipulator How to Sound Empathetic In many recovery programs, therapists will try to help a husband who has lied and cheated to express remorse by using empathy statements. But if he doesn’t actually have empathy for his wife’s suffering, those tools can just be performative. He may sound understanding without truly changing his behavior. Before, you might have been able to tell when he lacked empathy. After therapy, he may simply have better words to hide it. 5. Therapeutic Disclosures in Marriage Therapy for Infidelity Can Prolong Manipulation The process of crafting a therapeutic disclosure in marriage therapy for infidelity can take months or even years. And he’s likely going to manipulate you throughout the entire process, so it just prolongs his manipulation. Instead of convincing a husband to do a therapeutic disclosure, women who experience betrayal can focus on their own emotional and psychological safety. Learn More About the Risks of Marriage Therapy for Infidelity: Listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. Determine Her Husband’s True Character: Enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop to determine if your husband is emotionally abusive and to gain strategies for safety. Get Professional Support: Facing this type of abuse is difficult. There is a community of women who understand. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. Transcript: MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY? THE RISKS YOU NEED TO KNOW Anne:  Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I’m Anne. By the time betrayed women find my organization, Betrayal trauma Recovery, they’ve already spent years and tons of money on couple therapy or addiction therapy like for sex addiction. Even if you’ve never considered marriage therapy for infidelity, if you are trying to get the truth out of your husband, asking questions like, “Did you have an affair?”, “When did the affair start?” Or “That one night you said you couldn’t help me with my project. Were you with her?” you’re likely frustrated and confused. I’ve interviewed more women than I can count who have been to marriage therapy for infidelity and revealed what actually happens. Usually the therapist suggests a therapeutic disclosure as part of that therapy process. I’m gonna do a quick overview right now of the five things I’m gonna cover in depth today, And then after I’ll go into the details of each of these things. So here’s the quick overview. 5 RISKS OF Therapeutic DisclosureS IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: Here’s the quick overview: Asking a liar to tell you the truth about what he lied about is problematic. So whether your therapist says that he can get him to tell the truth, or if you’re a woman who’s trying to by asking him questions, either way, you need to know what obstacles you might to run into. Even if he says he’s willing to go to therapy for infidelity, or the therapist tells you that the truth will come out, think about his history. If he’s always told you what you wanna hear, this could be just a continuation of that. And there’s a way to know if this time it’s different. Let’s say he did tell the truth of all of his sexual indiscretions. Even in that case, it won’t account for all the gaslighting. It’s highly unlikely that he’ll tell you all of his efforts to hide what he was doing, amounts to emotional and psychological abuse. There’s so much here, so stick around so I can explain everything. If he’s lying, marriage therapy for infidelity is going to backfire because he is gonna start using therapy language in order to better manipulate you. I’ll share the things that therapists give him in order to “help” him. Like empathy scripts tend to make it worse because he is not actually empathetic. Whereas before you could tell he wasn’t empathetic. In terms of a therapeutic disclosure, that process can take months or even years. And he’s likely going to manipulate you throughout the entire process, so it just prolongs his manipulation. So if you’ve been trying to get the truth out of your husband and you’re considering maybe marriage therapy for infidelity, I just want you to understand the risks involved before you schedule an appointment. WHAT IS A THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURE IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: When you discover your husband is looking at online content, lying, having affairs, or soliciting, someone might tell you, or you may think he’s a sex addict. And if you go to addiction therapy. There’s a high likelihood that an addiction therapist, will have him do a therapeutic disclosure. So we’re going to talk about why I think therapeutic disclosures are dangerous. And then you decide what you want to do after listening to what I have to say. So, first of all, what is a therapeutic disclosure? It is a process that involves the addict disclosing their full history to his wife. In a “so-called structured way” with the guidance of a therapist. In theory, the purpose of a therapeutic disclosure is to provide the betrayed wife all the information she needs. For her to make informed decisions about the relationship moving forward. Now, I want to talk about all the reasons why that doesn’t make sense. First of all, their history does not include all the times they manipulated their wife over little and big things. All the lies, all the emotional and psychological abuse, and the coercion. It does not address his emotional abuse, which is the actual problem. If you take that to the next logical step, you might say, then I’m going to get them in an abuse program. Well, an abuse program is pretty much the exact same thing. It’s in a couple setting where the wife says, Hey, these are the things I need to see. This is what I want to know. The RISKS Of TherapEUTIC Disclosures IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: There’s really no difference. Your abusive husband can manipulate the therapist. He can take his time and drag it out. Like he has a lot of control to exploit that situation. So abuse experts understand that anything therapeutic will worsen the abuse. Because men aren’t abusive because of their childhood trauma or shame, or for any other reason other than they want to exploit people. I know many people with childhood trauma. I feel shame. And I watch a lot of TV sometimes, or I might go for a walk. I call my sister, you know, some people use model trains. Abuse is not the only option here. There are so many other options. Nothing’s gonna stop him from wanting to exploit the situation. Except for him wanting to stop. And if he wanted to stop, he wouldn’t be like that in the first place. So abuse is a choice. The purpose of therapy is to uncover the underlying cause of a person’s behavior. So in therapy, an abusive, manipulative, deceitful man will run the therapist and his wife in circles. He’ll give both of them all sorts of reasons. And most of these reasons are lies, and then these “reasons” take on a life of their own. So it’s best to stay away from being involved in an abusive man’s therapy, treatment, or program at all costs. A therapist could tell you that a therapeutic disclosure is important, to “avoid trickle disclosures.” And that sounds like a good idea. If a therapist tells you we’re going to do this, so you can get the whole truth. So he doesn’t just give you a little information. here and there. Waiting For A Therapeutic Disclosure Can Keep Women In Unsafe Situations Anne: But what they won’t tell you is this is just an abuser lying. He’ll disclose bits of information tactically to manipulate, distress you or drag things out. They know that this process of disclosing things at tactical times gives them control. So they’re going to prolong the process for as long as possible to maintain that control. Throughout that whole thing she’s still unsafe. She’s unsafe at every point. Not realizing she’s being lied to and manipulated, staying in contact with his constant abuse. Most often in the form of grooming. And because they’re doing this, victims undergo immense trauma for that time. Now, even if they don’t realize it, it seems like it’s going well. So many women come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and share six months after the disclosure or two years later. They realize what was happening. And they realized it was all lies and manipulation. They are so traumatized that they spent that much time basically just in this fog. With a therapist possibly enabling their continued abuse. Years ago, when I started podcasting, I interviewed a C-SAT about disclosures. She disagrees with me and thinks disclosures are great. And she uses them in her practice. When I interviewed her, it was really at the beginning. I didn’t love disclosures, but I was willing to have an open-mind. I posted the interview on my podcast, and then pretty soon after removed it. Because I realized this is problematic, and I don’t want to hurt someone’s reputation. My podcast isn’t a gotcha podcast. I appreciate everyone who has spent the time to come and be interviewed. QUESTIONS ABOUT Therapeutic Disclosures in Marriage Therapy FOR INFIDELITY Anne: Sometimes I disagree with people. And because of the way the interview goes, I don’t air that episode. Because I want to make sure I’m putting out the best information that I feel good about. I also want to acknowledge that some of you may have actually gone through this process, and it worked out great for you. If you feel that way, go to the bottom of this transcript, and comment. You can interact with our community about your experience. If it worked for you, I’m so glad it did. I don’t want to recommend it to anyone. And I’ll tell you the reasons why, but I also don’t want you to feel bad if you did it and it worked out great for you. Everybody is different. But reading the transcript of this podcast from years ago, which hasn’t even been in circulation, right? I took it out of circulation years ago. We talked about therapeutic disclosures. There are so many important points that I wanted to talk about. Now part of that episode was that we sent out a call for questions about disclosures at that time. And women wrote in their questions. So here’s a question that we received. One community member asked. Shouldn’t it be up to the wife to know or ask anything she needs to, even if it hurts her and causes her more pain? Is pain the enemy here? Isn’t unknowingly being in an unsafe situation far more dangerous? So that was the first question. Therapists’ Assumptions & Misconceptions ABOUT THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES Anne: Now this therapist said she thought it was up to the partner to decide the level of detail they wanted in the disclosure. Which is fascinating to me that this therapist assumed this guy would somehow tell the truth. Or that she could get the level of information she actually wanted. He’s super manipulative. So putting a woman in this position where you’re giving her the impression that she can get information. If he is a liar who manipulates people, is super scary. The woman who asked the question says, isn’t unknowingly being in an unsafe situation, far more dangerous? Yes, a hundred percent, but the disclosure itself is an unsafe situation. I’m going to talk about what to do, instead of a disclosure at the end. So keep listening, because I will give you an alternative. This therapist said when she starts disclosures, and I’m going to do a quote here. She said, “For me, when I’m leading disclosures or doing training about disclosures, I encourage partners to start with the least amount of detail. You can ask more, you have a right to ask for more information, but let’s be slow and careful. That it’s not too much information for your brain. Some of this information will be traumatic for you.” Like, you know, it’s going to be really traumatic for you. And so maybe you shouldn’t find out that it is insane for a therapist to say this. I can’t believe I had this episode up for a while. WHY HER SAFETY IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN HIS HEALING Anne: This therapist said, “So sometimes people get caught up in the emotion, and they want to know more and more. And that’s fine if they want to know, but I always ask them. Do you want to know? Is it going to be helpful in your healing?” Why would not knowing the truth be helpful in any situation? Like you can’t heal without the truth. Because if you don’t know what the truth is about the situation, you can’t make good choices. So why would anyone imply it’s okay? To not be aware of who your husband really is. Why would a therapist want to hide a man’s true character from his wife? Then I asked the therapist. What about safety issues, like isn’t that the most important thing? And she was like, oh, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We need to think about safety, but that was not the first thing she said. And she didn’t even mention it. Instead she was like, Does she want to know the truth or does she want to heal? And when it came to safety, the only thing she mentioned was getting an STD test. She did not tell me how to set boundaries. And I thought. You’re not going to mention that lying is emotional abuse, or the psychological abuse, or grooming? The fact that the thing you’re doing right now, her involvement with his therapy, his addiction recovery. Is counter-indicated when it comes to abuse. And you’re not talking about abuse. That’s dangerous. Safety Concerns ABOUT THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES Anne: So when I asked her this. This was her response. She said, “I work with addicts and their partners. When I work with an addict and help him prepare his disclosure. We’re looking at all the categories of behavior and addiction. He may not have behavior in all categories, but I want them to go through an inventory of every category. And then she starts talking about literally the details of the acting out, like specific ways he has behaved. And she starts delineating these things, and I’m like, what about abuse? She’s still not even saying this man is abusive and manipulative. How does all the different ways he had cheated, help her know that this is abuse? So then I asked her. What about other questions that aren’t related to this kind of behavior? Like lying. So I keep trying to go back to this, and she said that’s a hard one, because addicts have lied for so long. It’s hard for them to go through all the lies and correct all the lies in a disclosure. But isn’t that the point of a disclosure to find out the truth? You’re just going to hear me getting frustrated as I talk about this interview and the things she told me. Because it starts going around and around in circles. And I’m trying, but she doesn’t want to connect the dots. And so it got more frustrating as time went on. Then she says something that we absolutely do not recommend. And you’ll know why at the end. She says the addict prepares a disclosure document in marriage therapy for infidelity. HOW THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES GIVE A LIAR TIME TO CRAFT A STORY Anne: So basically, you’re giving this man a lot of time to write down all his manipulative reasons and craft this narrative any way he wants. To paint himself any way he chooses. Usually they paint themselves where they’re a victim in some way, they’re a victim because their dad didn’t love them enough. Or they’re a victim because their relationship with their mom is bad or they’re a victim because their dog died. So really, this disclosure is just putting her in the position to be lied to more. And the therapist said, okay, so she’s going to get this paper of this narrative that he concocted? And that’s when she gets to start asking him questions about it. But if he’s going to continue to lie. Do you see the problem? We’re going in circles. And this is a direct quote. She said, “Sometimes the disclosure can be a time for lies. Sometimes there are so many lies. The addict will never be able to tell the truth about them all. And the question is, Is the addict trying to live, honestly? Has he lied to her to protect her? What? No, nope, that’s not the reason. And then she says this, and this is what I just talked about. “And usually the lying comes from a behavior much younger, and from another time. It doesn’t excuse it, but it does explain it. And then we can get to the root of it.” Like, no, he just lied because he chose to, and he’s continuing the lie because he chooses to. MANIPULATION CAN CONTINUE EVEN WITH A THERAPIST INVOLVED Anne: Then I say to this therapist, she doesn’t need to worry about why he’s lying. The lying in and of itself is dangerous, and she needs to be shielded from being lied to. All she needs to understand is the type of character he has. That this was emotional and psychological abuse, and coercion. And he’s continuing to do it. So I go back to the safety issue. Because like, you’re still not getting it. Like, are you going to get it in this interview? She says, “I think the disclosure is important, because one person has knowledge and information about the relationship that the other doesn’t.” Absolutely, but do you think someone who is hiding something on purpose, who has for years. Who is now being forced to do it by will be like, okay, I’m going to do it now in marriage therapy for infidelity. Like, no, this is just an opportunity for more of it. So the therapist said, “This is a re-balancing of the information” and I’m like, no, it’s not. That is not what is happening. It is not a re-balancing of the information. If they’re going to continue to manipulate and lie through the whole process. So I never really got anywhere. We just talked in circles. And then here was the second question we had from our community. Why is the couple involved in a disclosure? Isn’t that couple therapy and couple therapy is counter-indicated when there’s abuse. And the therapist was like, I would never want clients to go to couples therapy when there is abuse involved. Uh, it’s all abuse. And you were working with the couple to do the disclosure. ISSUES WITH GROOMING DURING THE THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURE PROCESS Anne: Like can we put two and two together here? A therapeutic disclosure is not necessarily marriage therapy for infidelity, but she is involved. She is talking about what she needs and wants. She’s telling the therapist things that the therapist will tell him. There is some communication. This is definitely a couple endeavor. I don’t ever hear of addicts doing disclosures completely by themselves. Without their wife being involved. That might be the only scenario where this might work. If he went in completely by himself, went to therapy all by himself, his wife was not involved. But then wouldn’t he be like, I’m going to tell the truth. So we wouldn’t even need therapy. So I asked her specifically, aren’t you concerned about grooming that’s taking place during this disclosure process or during this time of therapy? That’s not considered “couple therapy,” but basically it is because the therapist is in communication with both people. Sometimes they’ll meet together. And she said, “I’ve never seen it from a grooming perspective.” There are a few individuals who learn a little bit. And then they use it against their partner. And at Betrayal Trauma Recovery we say that almost exclusively. So the fact that she thought it was just a few people and we’re like, um, this is on a like grand scale that this happens. So then I talk more about grooming and I talk about empathy scripts. MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY CAN TEACH A MANIPULATOR HOW TO SOUND EMPATHETIC Anne: So, what I’ve seen with men’s programs, even abuse programs. The therapist will be like, Okay, you don’t know how to be empathetic. So I’m going to help you learn what to say. But because they’re not genuinely empathetic, the therapist is like, well, I’m going to teach them. And they’ll just have to act like it until they become it. That sounds okay in theory. But in real practice, if they are not empathetic, they are not safe. If you’re in a room with someone who genuinely does not care about you at all. They’re not concerned about your emotional safety, your physical safety. They don’t care. They just want to exploit you and groom you. Them grooming you better with an empathy script is extremely dangerous. Because then they sound better. They can manipulate you more. So I brought this up, and the therapist said empathy scripts. Wow, I haven’t heard of that before. Then she said, “The way I look at it is if he comes home and uses the words I gave him or taught him, I always say, this is a good thing. Now I assume his intentions are true and his intentions are good. Because he’s trying new skills, and doesn’t have his own language yet.” So do you see the problem here? If he doesn’t have the ability to be empathetic, he’s mimicking it. He may use that and concentrate on how to use it to groom his wife. She assumes he’s trying to connect. But maybe he’s not. Maybe he’s like, okay, I’ve got to check all these boxes to continue to exploit the situation. WHY OBSERVING Genuine Change FROM A PLACE OF SAFETY MATTERS Anne: So then I asked her, how do you tell the difference in marriage therapy for infidelity between practicing a genuine new skill he wants, or is he using this to manipulate her? And she said, trust is built over time, which is true. And then she said, let’s sit back and watch. Which I also agree with. So why not just sit back and watch from the beginning? Why teach him all the empathy scripts? Why have him write out a big thing about his disclosure and all the lies? Is it just because you want them to spend a ton of money on therapy? Like you can sit back and watch without all that. In fact, instead of putting yourself in harm’s way—to be lied to—you can observe at a safe distance from the beginning, and not spend any money to know if he’s safe or not. All right, another question from a community member. She asked, Why do some therapists not include the state of the family finances in the full disclosure? This is a very important piece of information for a woman to have. The therapist says, “That is something that, I’ll say, unless a partner brings it up I will forget to ask that. It’s not on the top of my brain.” So if abuse is not on the top of the therapist’s brain, do you see how they’re not going to identify the abuse? And then the therapist says, I don’t know that it’s forgotten on purpose. I’m just not sure it’s on the top of our to-do list when we’re assessing for addiction and lies. So does this therapist think hiding money is not a lie? Because it is. The Transactional Nature Of THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: Then I asked the therapist. Are there any abuse issues you have found helpful for women to ask about in the disclosure? And she said, no, she didn’t think so. And that she just saw it as a data exchange. Which confirms my theory about couple therapy or therapy in this instance. When it comes to abuse, he is basically facilitating his transactionship. That he’s like, I’m going to check all these boxes. I’m going to write out a big document where I can craft a narrative that paints me as a victim. And if I do these things, she’ll let me back in the house. And the therapist is like, yep. Check, check, check. Sounds right, using the empathy scripts. We’re good to go. But he actually is still that exploitative person. And he used that whole process as a transaction. So the fact that she’s like, this is just a data exchange. She even uses the word exchange, which was super alarming. All right. Another question from the community. The question from the community is, do you have any tips on how a spouse or former spouse who is not getting a disclosure moves forward? All she said basically was that it’s very hard when you don’t get the answers and don’t get the information you need. And that’s going to take a lot of time and coaching to come to grips with, she actually said coaching. Which I thought was interesting. But she’s not acknowledging that even with the disclosure process, you’re still not going to get all the information. All you’ll get is a bunch of checked boxes and a document that he’s carefully crafted. That’s it, that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true. Tips FOR BETRAYED WIVES IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: Prepping for a therapeutic disclosure in marriage therapy for infidelity sometimes takes six months, a year or two years of going to therapy once a week. And a victim often goes to therapy, maybe not once a week, but often to be part of this process. While he takes all this time to manufacture the narrative. That seems absolutely dangerous. And a waste of time and money. I do have some tips about it, and I will share them with you now. I want you to think about what you know, so rather than going with your abuser to addiction therapy. Take one hour. Get out a pen and paper. And sit down at your kitchen table. And list all the things that you know. So for me, it would have been, I know he leaves the house at 10:00 PM, and I don’t know where he goes. And he gets home at like one in the morning or two in the morning. And I don’t know where he’s been. I’ve never been able to get a straight answer, I know that. I know that he screams in my face. And I know he’s punched a few walls. I know that he doesn’t make sense. I know that he has lied to me about this, this, this, and this. So write all the things that you know. I’m not sure why they would take two years to force a known pathological liar to tell the truth. When they could just say, you already know. Let’s focus on what you know. IssueS With Polygraphs Anne: Now once you have everything you know written down. Compare that to what abuse is, and then you’ll answer, is he abusive? Observe over time to see what his character is. And that’s all you need to know. When you know who he is, because you can see him clearly. Then you’ll feel confident in your choices. But if you can’t see him clearly, it’s hard to be confident about your choices. Women who are going through the therapeutic disclosure process in marriage therapy for infidelity are having a hard time because they’re still exposed to all that manipulation. Here’s the last question from our community members. She asked how accurate are lie detector tests? There are many addicts who won’t do them because they say they’re not accurate. Do you use them in your practice? If so, can you debunk misunderstandings about their accuracy and effectiveness in re-establishing trust in relationships? So I know a lot of women whose husbands have done disclosures and had polygraphs. And they’ve said they were helpful. So if they have been helpful to you, I’m glad they worked for you. This therapist said, she likes polygraphs and lie detectors. So she uses them in her practice. She claims they have an 80% accuracy rate. And then she said in my world, that’s better than not knowing. And I’m like, if it’s only 80% accuracy, you still don’t know. So it’s not better than not knowing, because it’s the exact same thing. Again, the reason why I don’t like polygraphs is still, the focus is on trying to get him to tell you something. Rather than having confidence in yourself and what you already know. Relying On Personal Observations INSTEAD OF THERAPEUTIC DISCLOSURES Anne: Anytime we’re trying to protect ourselves from his emotional abuse by trying to get something from him. Or having someone else get it through his brain, like clergy or a marriage therapy for infidelity couple therapist or an addiction recovery specialist. That is how the abuser will manipulate you. The thing about polygraphs that makes me nervous is they might tell the truth about the questions that the polygrapher is asking. But there’s so much that we wouldn’t know. I’m a woman of faith. If you’re not, you’re welcome here. But just for my own faith perspective. I don’t think there is any human earthly ability to genuinely detect if someone is lying, other than through observing them. Also I don’t think there’s a way to force them to tell the truth. I think God created this earthly life with that scenario, because it’s part of our earthly test. I think the only person who knows the truth is God. And so, I would prefer to turn to God to pray to feel the spirit, and then observe from a safe distance to know. That’s a safer situation. Because it focuses on what you know, and what God is telling you. Rather than rely on anything the abuser is saying, or someone he is manipulating, like a therapist or clergy is saying. This therapist, this is a direct quote. She says, “The thing about the polygraph, I really want to make sure folks understand, is that it’s not a statement of truth.” I’m reading this word for word. She said, “It’s not a statement of truth. It’s what he says is true.” And then she gives a confusing example that didn’t make any sense. I couldn’t make heads or tails of it. Therapist’s Views On Polygraphs Anne: And then she says this, “The polygraph is only checking what he thinks to be true. It doesn’t check his memory. It doesn’t check if he’s forgetting, it doesn’t check if his memory is wrong. So that’s an important piece that partners need to know before they go in. So, if he says this is everything and passes the polygraph, there are so many times when by virtue of exploring, investigating, or researching the data. She’s referring to all the months he spends crafting his narrative about. Apparently, “all the addiction acting out.” Okay, quoting her again now. “So he goes into a polygraph and passes. And then the next night, the victim will say, wait, what about this? And the addict will say, oh, I forgot about that.” So she is saying I use polygraphs, but a lot of the time. The truth isn’t included. And then she says this. “This is not them manipulating. This is them remembering one more thing.” So they always have some excuse, apparently according to a C-SAT to not tell the truth, I guess. That just sounds like chaos and pain. So then I tell her a few examples of women who came to Betrayal Trauma Recovery after marriage therapy for infidelity and told us their disclosure horror stories. One of them, a man went in to do a polygraph and he passed. But the things that he said were true, she knew were not true. And the therapist said, well, he passed the polygraph, so he’s great. I don’t know why you don’t believe him. It was just a nightmare for her. The Chaos Incomplete Disclosures CREATE IN MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: And I talked about that, and the therapist said, “Sometimes the guy is not yet out of his layers of denial enough that he’s seeing the full picture.” I think it’s more that he’s manipulating on purpose. That he’s good at lying and manipulating. And then she said, “but any disclosure is better than none.” Basically saying that even if it’s all abuse and a mess, and he’s saying certain truths in a tactical fashion to manipulate the whole situation. That’s better than not being abused. I disagree. I don’t think any disclosure is better than none. because the disclosure in and of itself is just abuse the whole time. No disclosure is better than any disclosure at all. So then in the end I asked her, is there anything else you want to share about disclosures? And she says, “I think your community is amazing and that you’re doing a great job.” That’s nice of her to say that, even though now I’m like throwing her under the bus. And the reason why I didn’t want to do her voice is because I have no intention of harming anyone’s reputation, but I want to educate you about the dangers of disclosures. What she wanted to say at the end was that she knows that women in our situation want to know the truth. They want to know exactly what happened. And then she said, and sometimes we need to break the disclosure into two pieces. Get the safety items taken care of immediately. FINAL THOUGHTS ON MARRIAGE THERAPY FOR INFIDELITY Anne: Uh, that’s like 10 minutes after she said you have to observe and wait to know if they’re safe. You can’t get any safety items taken care of immediately. That’s not how safety works. You have to observe from a safe distance for a long time to see what their actions are. So I don’t even know what she means when she says get the safety items taken care of immediately. That’s just not a thing. She’s not only contradicting herself, she’s also showing that she doesn’t understand how safety works. And then she says, if they can wait a little longer, it will take a lot of time. And if you’re more patient, it’s going to get better. So she assumes you can create safety immediately. Then you need to take a lot of time to see if he’s safe, almost in the same breath. That doesn’t make sense to me. All right now, I’m going to talk about what you should do, instead of asking for a therapeutic disclosure. I know that in your desire to have a therapeutic disclosure, couple therapy or get clergy to help him. You are resisting the abuse. You’re doing everything right. You’re trying to stop this, because you want a safe place for your family. So you’re doing amazing. You’re doing everything you’re supposed to do. This is not your fault, and this is not your problem. This is the problem of addiction therapists who don’t know anything about abuse, who are putting women in harm’s way. That has nothing to do with you. Educating Yourself About Abuse Anne: Instead of doing a therapeutic disclosure in marriage therapy for infidelity, the number one thing is to educate yourself about abuse, so that you can start seeing the truth of your situation. You might find that he’s not as abusive as you thought. You might find out that he’s really abusive. But getting educated about abuse will help. Number two, determine your husband’s true character from your own observations. That’s why I created The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. It takes you through step-by-step how to observe from a safe distance. You could still be in your home. This doesn’t necessarily mean you have to move out to observe from a safe distance. It gives you strategies to do this, whether you’re in the home or even if you’re divorced, they work no matter what. So that you determine if he has a safe character from what you know, and you don’t have to rely on him for any information whatsoever. Getting The Right Support Anne: And then the third is to get the right support from people who understand emotional abuse and betrayal trauma. That could be a group at your local domestic violence shelter. It could be a therapist who understands abuse dynamics, who does not know your husband. Who will not talk to your husband. Who’s not going to have anything to do with him. It could be our online Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions.
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  7 Emotional Safety Examples: How to Establish Emotional Safety in Marriage 01.09.2026 31dk

  Do you feel anxious, confused, or unsafe in your marriage, but you can’t quite explain why? These 7 emotional safety examples can help you find clarity when your husband’s words sound loving, but his actions leave you feeling betrayed. Before we get to the list, to see if he’s using any one of the 19 types of emotional abuse tactics, take our free emotional abuse test. 7 EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES In this article you’ll see the following emotional safety examples: 7 Practical examples of emotional safety issues. Identifying his behaviors that threaten your emotionally safety. Realizing that your reactions to his emotional abuse are “normal.” What getting the right information means for your emotional safety. Honoring your needs and boundaries is essential as you decide next steps. 1. IF HIS ACTIONS DON’T MATCH HIS WORDS, TRUST WHAT YOU SEE How it Sounds: “I love you and I’d never do anything to hurt you or our family.” His promises could sound comforting, but his patterns are evidence that shows who he really is. If you find yourself assessing his mood or, rehearsing conversations afterwards to figure out what went wrong. Or realize the same issues never get resolved no matter how carefully you explain them, start trusting what you can see and feel. Emotional safety begins with trusting your instincts. 2. IF HE USES MONEY OR OTHER RESOURCES TO CONTROL YOU, UNDERSTAND WHAT THAT MEANS How it Sounds: “I’m just trying to take care of you. You don’t need to worry about the money.” It may feel caring or protective for your husband to take care of the finances, but if he is secretive about his purchases, monitors every purchase you make, withholds money, interferes with your ability to work, or makes you feel dependent on him for basic needs, that is not protection. It is control. Emotional safety examples, means you have access to money, transportation, information, food, medical care, and communication without having to beg, panic, or wait for him to decide whether you deserve them. 3. IF HE USES STRESS, SADNESS, OR HELPLESSNESS TO EXPLOIT YOU, PROTECT YOUR ENERGY How it Sounds: “I’m so overwhelmed lately. I need your help, so I can focus on recovery.” If your husband tries to pressure you into feeling responsible for his recovery by using stress at work or his overwhelming shame as an excuse to get you to schedule his appointments or keep track of his progress, it’s important that you protect your energy. Emotional safety means he considers you as a person with needs and a life of your own, not just someone who’s there to “help him” manage his. 4. IF HE TWISTS THE TRUTH AND BLAMES YOUR “POOR” COMMUNICATION, BE STRATEGIC: EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES How it Sounds: “You never told me you had a problem with my behavior.” One of the ways a manipulative husband keeps his wife from discovering the whole truth about his addictions or affairs, is to keep her stuck in a cycle of confusion over communication. You might have already spent years crying and trying to explain how his choices are hurting you, only to have him say that he “didn’t understand because you didn’t explain it clearly” or because “he didn’t like being accused.” Emotional safety examples are not established by trying to perfectly explain why something hurts you. It’s recognizing that someone who benefits from deception has a strong incentive to pretend he never understood your concerns in the first place. 5. IF HE BLAMES YOU FOR HIS BETRAYALS, REMEMBER BLAME IS A DEFLECTION How it Sounds: “I wouldn’t have done this if you were more affectionate, less critical, or easier to live with.” If your husband blames you for his use of inappropriate material, cheating, emotional affairs, lies, or other betrayals, he is shifting responsibility for choices that were always his to make. Emotional safety examples begin with releasing yourself from any responsibility for the choices he has made. 6. IF HE SUGGESTS COUPLE THERAPY, SEEK EMOTIONAL SAFETY FIRST How it Sounds: “Let’s go to couples therapy so we can both work on our issues.” If your husband lies or withholds information that directly affects your reality, safety, health, finances, sexuality, or ability to make informed decisions, he uses coercive control. This is not a marriage issue. Traditional couples therapy is not designed to address ongoing deception and manipulation, especially when one person benefits from keeping the other and the therapist confused. Determining what you need for emotional safety, comes before focusing on repairing the relationship. 7. EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES: IF HE LIES ABOUT YOU TO OTHERS, PROTECT YOUR PEACE How it Sounds: “She’s unstable. She’s angry. She needs help. I’m really worried about her.” If your husband feels he is losing control, he may try to control the narrative. He might tell your “friends” that he’s worried about your mental health or tell your pastor that you’re bitter and unforgiving, or the counselor that you’re an angry person. He may even plant seeds of doubt about your character with your children, and try to pin the “marriage issues” on your reactions to his manipulations. It’s normal to feel like you have to defend yourself, but you do not owe unsafe people any explanation. Emotional safety examples include choosing grounded support, protecting your peace, and letting your consistent actions speak over time. Talk to women who can support you and validate you. We’d love to see you in a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. TRANSCRIPT: EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES Anne: Okay, here’s my interview with Roxanna. I have a woman I actually knew in person from years ago when I went to 12-Step. She wrote a book called, Forgotten In The Battle of Sexual Addiction, the Journey of a Spouse. I’m honored to catch up, Roxanna. Let’s just start wherever you would like to start. Roxanna: Thank you Anne. I am excited to be here. When I met my husband and started building a family when we married, there were certain behaviors that he had that I thought were normal and that I needed to work around. I was in a 12-Step meeting one day when I suddenly remembered something from my childhood. My sister and I came home from school animated and excited. But when we hit the back door, we lowered our voices, and we immediately began assessing our situation. Was Dad home? Had he gone to the bar? Had he gone to his second job? Was Mom upstairs crying? Because our emotional safety examples revolved around an accurate assessment of his mood. And I realized I was doing the same thing. That I was to a place in the relationship where when I was around him, I assessed and responded to keep myself safe. Anne: Did you know that you were experiencing abuse? Roxanna: At that point, no, because it wasn’t until 24 years into the marriage and I refer to it as the bomb because it exploded my existence. It totally fractured everything that I had built my life around. THE TRUTH THAT EXPLODED MY EXISTENCE Roxanna: Now he came forward with a very sterile confession, but it was incomplete. About a week later, the spirit said, check his wallet. And I found motel receipts. I had a very flexible job, and the next morning, I checked our bank records. What I found sickened me: phone stuff, prostitution, strip clubs, inappropriate viewing. I mean, it was a bomb. Because of his vast flips in personality, I went from thinking he was bipolar to wondering who he was. Because it was clear to me that so much of my reality wasn’t as I knew it to be. And I asked him to meet me at a park, and I said, I don’t know what you’re doing or who you are, but if you don’t get help, I’m going to file for divorce today. He checked himself into a rehab center. And I got really sick, and I mean like eight months of illness, 12 times of being hospitalized, and he couldn’t continue the facade. Anne: Also, he can’t get you to do what he wants at this point, because you’re too sick to do it. You’re too sick to be exploited in the way he was exploiting you before. You’re too sick to be manipulated. I’m so, so sorry. Because that’s when you need the person to be there for you. Roxanna: Yeah. Anne: They think that you’re created for them, but they don’t like giving back. Roxanna: Right, they objectify everyone around them. Anne: So the rehab center he checked into was for drugs and alcohol. Roxanna: Yes, but at the end the counselor said, “I think your husband is an addict.” And I countered with, ” What in the world is that?” I LEARNED TO MEET MY OWN NEEDS Anne: And no one identified any emotional, psychological, financial or spiritual abuse, at that time, not the therapist or anything? No one said anything about abuse? There were no emotional safety examples for me to follow. Roxanna: That therapist blamed me. And I looked at it as a two-way street. I was 46 when this happened, and gradually, I gave space, I gave Jack first a year. I didn’t do that verbally, but I did that in my heart and mind. Part of my learning process was to learn to hold boundaries with someone I didn’t think I could hold boundaries with. As I held boundaries and learned to meet my own needs. I learned to make decisions based on what I saw and what my truth was, not what he was telling me. It freed him to decide what he wanted. Anne: Well, he was always free to do what he wanted the whole time. Roxanna: But some of those boundaries allowed me to step out of the position of being blamed. Anne: He never had to blame you. Roxanna: Right, but he did. Anne: Yeah, the language “allowed him”, I’m like no. He was always free to choose. Roxanna: I look at myself and think I made a million mistakes, but were they mistakes? Probably not. One of the experiences I learned from a Saturday. I wanted it to be a wonderful day, and Jack just kept sulking on the couch. I remember coming over and visiting with him and saying, “What’s up?” and I can’t remember the words he used. But essentially, I’m mad because you are supposed to make me happy, and I’m not happy. and I just kept trying to make life pleasant. I would twist myself and my schedule into a pretzel. EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES: WE WANT TO PROTECT OUR FAMILIES Anne: It’s a total normal reaction. We all value our dignity. We’re all going to stand up for ourselves. We’re all going to try and improve the situation. Women are incredible. They’re smart, they’re capable. And when something’s not quite right, of course we wanna fix it, anybody would. Healthy people want to help the people they love, they wanna care. Women who have never been abused act the same way. They’re like, “Are you okay? What’s wrong? How can I help you?” Because they’re a good person. It’s just that manipulators use that against you, regardless of your background. And that’s the hard part for women to wrap their heads around, is that they’ve never done anything wrong. I’ve done over 200 long form interviews that are like an hour or longer, and they’re all different. Women come from really healthy backgrounds, women come from unhealthy ones, and we’re all completely different. But we all wanna help out. We all wanna protect our families. Of course, none of us are perfect. We’re just trying to navigate someone who’s lying to us and manipulating us. They’re actually doing the right things. He’s just using all the right things against them. Roxanna: That is so true, Anne. I love your stance on it. We are amazing. You’re responding reasonably to an unreasonable situation. You’re learning to be true to yourself. You don’t have to believe what other people tell you. Somewhere in your gut and somewhere with God, you can figure out in those moments, “That’s not my job.” I could leave. I tried marriage again AND HE LIED TO ME, TOO Roxanna: Jack had a lot of medical issues. One night we were in the ER, it was very late, he was overtly flirting, and it was horrible. And I left. That was the good part. But then the old messages started playing in my head. A good wife wouldn’t leave her husband in the ER, wouldn’t do this. A good wife wouldn’t do that. Instead of trying to fight those untrue messages, I went back. At this point, I didn’t have emotional safety examples to help me understand what was happening. That was a very unpleasant night. That took me months to be able to talk about. But I learned from it. I learned that I could never reenter the room or the situation that was hurtful. That learning resulted in a later episode in an ICU room, and I left. After Jack passed away, I tried marriage again, and despite all that I had learned, his facade fooled me. Anne: Yeah, he lied to you on purpose. He didn’t fool you, he lied. Roxanna: Yeah. Anne: How did you feel when you met him? I wanna bring this up, because you’re not doing anything wrong. You’re very healthy at this point. You’ve really focused on making sure that you’re making good choices, which you’ve been doing all along. I recently did an episode about how Jesus was betrayed. He was perfect. And Judas still lied. In that episode, I talk about how Judas betrayed him long before the last supper. When he is like, whoever takes the bread will betray him because Judas had gone out and arranged it prior to this. I HAD THE RIGHT TO JUDGE HIS BEHAVIOR Anne: So you could have been absolutely perfect, and he would’ve lied to you, and still you wouldn’t have known. So that’s why I’m like, tell me about what you’re feeling in real time. Like you meet him, and he seems probably really great, because I’m guessing you don’t wanna go through what you’ve just been through. Roxanna: Well, the interesting part is I knew that he had struggled with alcohol. But he told me he was clean. Because of my background, we talked extensively about what he wanted in his life. What I learned is that I had the right to judge people on what they had done. Anne: Right. Roxanna: Not what they said. Anne: Well, how old is this guy? Roxanna: He was 56. Anne: So if he wanted what he said he wanted, he would be that person already. Roxanna: I learned that. Anne: So he is just lying. My ex, I talked to him extensively about exploitative materials use. ‘Cause I did not wanna marry a user. He told me to my face, “I don’t use it.” And he still did. We choose our character one choice at a time. So at 56 with this guy. If he wanted the things he was lying to you about, he would’ve been that person. But he wasn’t that person. But he knew you wanted that. You didn’t have emotional safety examples. LYING IS CONTROL: EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES Roxanna: Absolutely, a healthy marriage cannot be built by one person. It takes the foundation of honesty. Marriage therapy often does not work, because a lot of times therapists don’t even see the lie. Anne: Right, or they don’t view lies as domestic abuse. And couple therapy or any type of couple work is never, ever ethically indicated if there’s abuse. So if they’re like, “Oh yeah, we’ll help him with his lying.” I’m like, well, that is abuse. So that should never happen. But they don’t view it as emotional manipulation and psychological abuse a lot of the time, which I disagree with. The definitions from mainstream domestic abuse educators would include lying as domestic abuse. So they just haven’t been trained in abuse. There’s this huge problem with this gap between what the behaviors actually are and how they’re literally defined, how they’re viewing them, which is a problem that I’m always combating. Roxanna: Yes, I bet you are, because in my mind, lying comes from not seeing the other person as a real person with wants and needs of their own. Anne: Well, and at the heart of abuse, because lying is control. You’re controlling that person through withholding certain information from them that they have a right to know. So it’s a serious coercive control issue. It’s not like I was ashamed or something. It doesn’t matter if you were ashamed or not. It meets the legal definition of coercive control. I WANTED HUMAN CONNECTION, NOT A “TRANSACTIONSHIP” Roxanna: Right, and marriages cannot last in a healthy way with deceit. And that’s one thing that this process of growth learning emotional safety examples has helped me identify, is what I want. Anne: Yeah. Roxanna: I wanted human connection. And when you are lying or when you see the other person as just a means to your end, there is no human connection. I think it was Teddy Roosevelt who said the man in the arena who comes out and he’s bloody from trying, he doesn’t have any armor on. He doesn’t have any deceit in him. He comes out and wants to try honestly. And what is required, and what these men typically do not understand. Is that we’re asking for the human connection. We ask others to see us as another human being, and they want to treat us as something that meets their needs. Anne: Yeah, that’s essentially the definition of abuse, is that you view the other person as someone who you exploit for your own gain. But they’re not an equal to you. I remember something you said way, way back in the day. This was when you were still married to Jack. You said to him, I’m someone who buys the groceries, takes care of the kids, and gives him it, but that’s about it. I’m not a person to him. And that stuck with me. ‘Cause many views I have now evolved, obviously over the years, because I’ve talked to so many women and become so educated about abuse and the long term affects. I didn’t have the two things put together. I thought I knew about abuse, but I really didn’t understand it back then. And that is the heart of it. WHAT HIS PATTERNS OF BEHAVIOR MEAN Anne: Whether he has an addiction and what he’s doing about that, it’s always abuse to us as the victim of that. With the most recent husband, how did you find out? The difference between what he said and what he did is that what you started to observe? Or did you have a D-Day with the new husband? Roxanna: That’s a really good question. They were in little snippets. So about a month after we married, the behaviors began. The objectifying, the using, the shutting me out and off started almost immediately. We took a vacation with my family. In very separateness from associating with my family, he started penalizing me for asking questions. And that’s when I knew I was in real trouble. The drinking and substance abuse started later. So, from there. I went back to getting support. He remained angry. He was always defensive. So I filed for divorce, it was a heartbreak. They always are. You’re always losing hopes and dreams, and you have to grieve it. At the same time, it had begun to affect my health. And I knew it would destroy me if I didn’t keep myself in a safe place. Anne: Yeah, here at BTR, everything’s founded on the strategies in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. And it’s the same thing you’re talking about. If she wants safety, and help with emotional safety examples, She’s going to need to learn some skills. But there’s nothing wrong with her character. THERE’S NOTHING WRONG WITH YOU, YOU JUST DIDN’T HAVE THE RIGHT INFORMATION Anne: If you put our program next to 12-Step. There are no character defects. You’ve always been trying to get help. You’ve always been trying to do the right thing. But you just didn’t have the right information. You didn’t realize what you were dealing with. Once you realize what’s happening, he’s lied to you and he’s manipulative. You can create some space, either just in your mind or physical space, whatever kind of space you need to observe. And that’s what you’ve been talking about. Just observe, see if their actions match their words. As you observe, some of them might start making good choices, observing whether that’s grooming, like what you experienced with your second marriage. ‘Cause he was grooming you and lying to you from the beginning. So it wasn’t like he switched, he was the same person. He just switched tactics. He went from grooming to being mean to you. You know, I’m being angry. They’re both two sides of the control coin of trying to manipulate you to do what he wanted. Then over time, if he escalates, you can increase your boundaries. You learn by seeing practical emotional safety examples. Or you can pull back on your boundaries a little bit and be like, okay, he’s safe. So that process of trying to figure out am I safe? Am I not safe? This feels safe. He feels safe, but then realizing, oh, that’s what he does when he grooms me. Okay, nevermind. That wasn’t actual safety, because there’s no way to circumvent the process of figuring them out, because there’s no human way on the face of the earth to be like a lie detector. Roxanna: Right. RELEARNING WHAT TO DO Anne: So the only way to determine whether they’re telling the truth is to observe over time. There’s no way to shortcut that. Roxanna: A lot of my journey is because I lived in some sort of dysfunctional relationship for the better part of 46 years, before I started recognizing what I had lived in. And so I wasn’t ever the problem. You say that so beautifully, and that’s so freeing. I was doing the dance of what did I do wrong, because that was what I was taught. Through years and years of this. A counselor stopped me and said, “You could be the biggest bitch in the world, and Jack would still be responsible for keeping his vows.” That was a turning point for me. The process that you do in your groups. I learned in various groups and situations. That living in these dysfunctional ways and relationships, I had acquired coping skills that were no longer serving me. They weren’t helping me be peaceful and happy in my own life. So my journey is about relearning what I got to do in my life. In fact, I have a chapter in the book called The Things That Get to Change, and I see that as a happy process. Because no matter what they’re doing over there in their life. You get to bring positive behaviors and positive responses into your life, and you get to start showing how you wanna be and how you are. The beautiful person you are, you get to start showing up like that. I had become almost a little mouse. I was afraid of asserting too much or being strong or meeting my own needs. Anne: Yeah. EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES: BECOMING STRONG AND BRAVE Roxanna: I learned to meet my own needs. To say my truth and not cower when someone else responded with what I knew was a lie. I didn’t have to convince them that their’s was a lie. Anne: Yeah, I love that. I liken it to a plane crash. Think about the movie Castaway, when he’s first on the island and struggling, and then it fast forwards and he is standing on that rock super strong, and he can catch the fish and do all the stuff. You’re not the pilot, you’re just on the plane. You didn’t do anything wrong. Then you wanna survive. You’re gonna try and make a fire a bunch of times and fail. But none of that is you doing anything wrong. Then you’re gonna learn these amazing skills. Women who learn how to protect themselves and realize that that’s the journey they were always on, right? They were always doing the right thing, even if they couldn’t catch the fish in the beginning. Then there’s this montage of, and now Roxanna is here and she is strong, she’s brave, and she’s always been strong and brave because she faced all these things head on, and this is who she is now. Who is this even stronger braver woman who came out of it? So it’s really cool. I love that part of it, that women share over and over again, that the process of realizing someone was harming them and learning how to protect themselves. Instead of saying, would a good wife do this? Asking what would a brave woman do? Roxanna: Right. I learned to ask myself, what’s the next right decision? EMOTONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES: SEEING THE TRUTH Roxanna: And that’s something that I use to this day with relationships with my children, with my grandchildren. You are absolutely right. This process enriches our lives. I tell people that I believe God is making an army of strong women who know what the truth is. Who know how to live happy lives, and who can teach our children what the truth is. And to protect a child from inappropriate media. Anne: Yeah. Roxanna: Our culture desperately needs that. It really is. Anne: Yeah, I feel the same way. See the truth, and then protect themselves and others from the lies through their actions. Communication is never the solution to domestic abuse. When someone’s lying, communication isn’t the solution, because that’s how they lie. Knowing how to navigate a situation where words, to the person who’s hurting you, mean nothing. And knowing how to figure out what’s going on. It’s hard for everybody. Roxanna: It is, and I think that’s what I learned in this last marriage. We have to make judgments, keep ourselves safe. And judgments are not the same necessarily as condemning. But I get to make judgments based on what a person has done. Anne: Yes Roxanna: Not on what they say they’re going to do. It’s freeing to learn. Anne: You are so incredible. The process of writing, ‘because I’ve been writing my own book, it’s not just an end result, like writing in and of itself is the process of learning. That’s so exciting that you took the time to do that. ‘Cause that is a huge accomplishment. So way to go. BUYING A MOTORCYCLE Roxanna: It was a labor of love. Jack is deceased and I wanted to say this has happened to me and I’ve grown from it and I understand it. And I have overcome the terrible lies it said to me about myself. Anne: From knowing you in person way back in the day, I appreciated you so much. What you were going through was very heavy, but there was this super fun, awesome person who was trying to claw her way out of the darkness. You knew that life didn’t have to be this miserable, and you wanted to create that life that you wanted, and that was really impactful to me at the time. And I thank you. Roxanna: During that process is when I, bought my motorcycle, Anne. And I would suggest a passionate hobby like that to any woman going through this. I still love to ride. I wanna say I felt the same about you. There was a connection, and it is so fun to reconnect after all these years and look at all you’ve done. Anne: That’s the crazy part. When you knew me, and maybe for our listeners who have listened, if you wouldn’t mind sharing. You knew me before I was podcasting, when I was in 12-Step and in absolute shock about what had happened. Roxanna: What I remember is that I was drawn to you because your personality and your demeanor were still dynamic. You were full of life, but you had so many questions and concerns about what you were learning, the road ahead of you, and what you could feel as deceit in your own situation. What I see now is that you remain true to acknowledging what you felt and moved forward. ON A JOURNEY TO BUILD WHAT I NEEDED Roxanna: You got those questions answered. And to me, that is the impetus of change and recovery. Because I remember looking at a young woman one time that came through the doors, and she was like, “I’m fine.” And six months later, she said, “I’m angry”. I remember saying to her. Good, now we can get somewhere. Anne: Yeah. Roxanna: And so I just look at you as you came into those meetings, aware that you were on a journey. Anne: Yeah. Roxanna: And you were searching. That is a beautiful place to start. Anne: Yeah. Roxanna: What is a really tough journey. Anne: We do things in a specific way here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, because of what I went through and all the obstacles I faced along the way. And all the stuff that people said did not sit right with me over the years. So I built BTR, the ideal thing I needed. This is what it would’ve been. But I wanna say it doesn’t matter what someone uses, I mean uses. I’m using that word specifically on purpose. Whatever a woman uses to realize how amazing she is. That she’s always been trying to do the right thing. That she’s always been working hard and capable, and that there’s nothing inherently wrong with her. She’s just fine. If the thing she’s doing is getting her where she wants to go, then great. WE BECOME A DIFFERENT PERSON: EMOTIONAL SAFETY EXAMPLES Anne: Because different things speak to different people, and it’s important to acknowledge there’s been some of the best books that I’ve read that I now look back and think. I don’t agree with that, but it was super helpful for me in the moment. Roxanna: At that point. Anne: And it helped me along my journey. Roxanna: Right, because we become a different person almost incrementally. I love that you’re saying this, because you’re basically giving you the milestones of my path, so you can pull apart the pieces that might help you on yours. Anne: Yeah, and many women who come here are like, wow, this is what I needed. Because I’m so careful about, we’re not gonna say this thing that was said or this thing. But at the same time, they make it here, and they’ve all used different things along the way. Or when they come here, maybe it doesn’t work for them, and maybe something else is gonna work. Maybe hearing emotional safety examples from others. So whatever works. Because like you said, all I care about is that we become collectively an army of really healthy women. Who can through our boundaries in marriage and our actions, literally stop abuse. Not that the abusers are stopping. They could be doing it all they want, but it cannot reach us because we are so strong and so united. Roxanna: And we have detached ourselves from places that they can hurt us. SEPARATING FROM PLACES THEY CAN HURT US Anne: Exactly, we’ve created space, mentally, physically, whatever it is. Where they are trying to hurt us, but they cannot. Healthy people, living healthy lives. Roxanna: Yeah, that’s beautiful because we’ve all got to learn to separate ourselves from that. Anne: Well, Roxanna, thank you so much for coming on to share your story. It’s so great catching up with you again. Roxanna: Anne, thank you so much for this opportunity. It was beautiful to reconnect, what a privilege.
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  The Truth About Post Separation Abuse – Women’s Stories 25.08.2026 38dk

  We’d all like to believe that divorce stops abuse, but post separation abuse is so common. The truth is, abusers don’t stop wanting power over their victims, even after divorce. To learn if your ex-husband is continuing to abuse you after your separation or divorce, take my free emotional abuse test. What Is Post Separation Abuse? Post-separation abuse refers to the continuation of emotional, financial, and psychological abuse by an ex-partner after a relationship has ended. It can manifest in various ways, often leaving the victim feeling trapped and stressed. Understanding and identifying the signs of post-separation abuse is crucial for taking steps towards healing and protection. 1. USING THE LEGAL SYSTEM TO STAY IN CONTROL Post-separation abuse often is enabled by the court system that court orders women to co-parent with men who are manipulative and undermining them, lying to them. It causes so much chaos. He might be threatening to take you to court or using court orders that are meant to help you co-parent, to make things harder. 2. MAINTAINING FINANCIAL CONTROL Many men withhold things like child support or alimony so that you have to contact him to get it. That is actually a form of post-separation abuse, and they do it on purpose to make sure that they’re still relevant, that they can control what you’re doing so you have to be put through the wringer of contacting them every single time. 3. Manipulating Your Children’s Lives Post-separation abuse can also include creating chaos for your children in order to exert control over you. Such as, refusing to adhere to set schedules or neglecting to take your children to extracurricular activities. They may also send subtly intimidating emails. They are difficult to pinpoint as dangerous. But they intend to cause fear and anxiety. Get The Right Support while you are experiencing Post-separation abuse At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we recognize the difficulty of understanding post-separation abuse. And are dedicated to providing the support you need. Our community offers: Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions: Join one of our many group sessions for support, guidance, and understanding from women who have been through similar experiences. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Individual Sessions: Receive one-on-one attention and strategies tailored to your situation with our specially trained betrayal trauma coaches. Why Choose Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions? Expert Support: Our professional coaches experienced personal betrayal trauma. They are equipped to help you find peace and protection for yourself and your family. Accessible & Affordable: For just $125 a month, you have access to over 92 group sessions—providing real support at the cost of just one therapy appointment. Immediate Help: Attend a group session within hours and start receiving the support you need today. Take Action to Protect Yourself During Post-separation Abuse You don’t have to face post-separation abuse alone. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is here to help you take the steps necessary to protect yourself and your children. Attend a group session today, and join a community that understands your struggles and supports your healing journey. If you’re going through post-separation abuse, consider enrolling in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to learn the secrets of why an ex would continue to cause chaos after divorce. With Post Separation Abuse, Boundaries Are Key Boundaries help victims separate themselves from abusive behavior. Boundaries are not: Ultimatums Consequences for bad behavior Mechanisms to control another person’s behavior Instead, boundaries are courageous actions that victims take to ensure they are as protected as possible from harm. Setting and maintaining boundaries in a divorce is key to navigating post separation abuse. What Are Some Boundaries That Can Help Me Navigate Post Separation Abuse? Remember that boundaries aren’t going to stop your abuser from being abusive, but they are intended to limit your exposure to your ex-husband’s post separation abuse tactics. Some ideas of boundaries you can set and maintain include: Using a parenting communication app, like Our Family Wizard, as your sole mode of communication (consult with your attorney). Determining certain times of day, or days of the week, that you will check and respond to messages from your ex Bringing a family member or friend with you to drop off/pick up the children A Strong Support System Is Essential When Navigating Post Separation Abuse Post-separation abuse can sometimes feel overwhelming. It’s imperative that victims develop a strong support network. Post separation abuse victims can find support from: Safe family members The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Trauma-informed specialists, like Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coaches Transcript: The Truth About Post Separation Abuse Anne: What is post-separation abuse? Marcie’s here to tell her story. We’ll talk about the post-separation abuse she experienced since her divorce. Welcome Marcie Marcie: Hi. Anne: Can you start at the beginning of your story? Marcie: Before that, I’d like to share a funny story. This was when we had originally separated. I tried to send something to my husband to help him understand the situation. It happened to be something from you. And I didn’t know it was from you at the time. It just resonated with me, and I thought it would help. And since that time in all his communication, he references you as this horrible person trying to break up families. And do horrible things for women. Early Relationship Dynamics Marcie: And I feel like it’s ironic that now I’m actually part of that community and maybe helping other women in bad situations, like I was and currently still am. Anne: So he introduced you to Betrayal Trauma Recovery? Marcie: Well, I saw something I read and didn’t know it was Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Anne: And then you showed him, like, hey … Marcie: Yeah. Anne: … this will help you be a better person. Marcie: Yes. Anne: And since then, I am the devil. Marcie: Of course. Anne: And it’s my fault that you’re setting boundaries, rather than his abuse, of course. Marcie: Yes. Anne: I get that a lot, no worries. I’m happy to take that heat for you. So talk about the beginning. Marcie: I met him in high school, and I was young. It was actually before I started high school, so I was very inexperienced with relationships or this type of behavior. And at the beginning, like most of us, it doesn’t start feeling wrong, it starts feeling great. This person is loving. I misunderstood controlling things as loving things. Like, oh, you shouldn’t do that with your friend. That might not be safe for you, but it was a controlling issue. Then we married fairly young and had kids. Then a lot of these things that now I look back with eyes open and see were wrong or damaging. I was told this is normal, I’m crazy, and all the typical things that most of us hear in these situations. And then we feel like, well, that must be true. It must be us. Appeasing Him Marcie: I am now, in my fifties. Our relationship started when I was 14 and we married when I was 21. I feel like it took me a long time to realize that it was such a problem. But I basically tried to appease him in every way possible, because when I didn’t, it was miserable. So that happened for a long time. And then there was the fear of not appeasing him or doing things his way. Anne: So back then, you were doing that to protect yourself. Marcie: Absolutely. Anne: You didn’t know that you were resisting back then, but that was a form of resistance, trying to get it to stop. Marcie: Absolutely, I felt like if I was what he wanted me to be, then it would stop. And of course, in whatever discussions we had about it, or arguments, it was usually my fault. Whatever reaction I was getting was because I wasn’t doing something right. Or I wasn’t being what he needed me to be. So I kept trying to resist his behavior by doing whatever I could to be the best wife I could be. I literally ran myself ragged trying, but it was impossible. And it never really made things better. Anne: Hmm, when did you notice that wasn’t improving things for you? Marcie: I noticed it a long time ago. But I just kept trying, because I didn’t know what my options were. And the longer it went on, I think the more I felt like it was my fault that I couldn’t be what he needed. He kept telling me that, or that I was crazy. Understanding Post Separation Abuse Marcie: There was one point where he, this was quite a while ago, like at least 20 years ago. He said I needed antidepressants because I was hard to deal with. Before I actually left, I realized, of course, I was depressed. I lived with someone who made it impossible to function. He made it impossible to have any type of normal life. He constantly made me feel like I was inadequate, horrible, or bad at everything I did. It was confusing. And honestly, I didn’t have much time to think about how I felt, because I was the sole financial provider for our family of eight. And I worked a lot, plus I had all the responsibilities at home. I attributed it to my busyness. Or that, I don’t know, I didn’t have much chance to think about how I was feeling. When I realized I was depressed, we tried therapy. It doesn’t work in abusive situations. And the therapist we went to was horrible, because he wouldn’t let me talk about the past. He felt like I’m going to fix this and this magical person who’s going to fix your relationship. We’re going to build from right now, and we’re not going to go into the past at all. And that was really empowering to my ex husband, because he didn’t want to talk about the past either. There was actually discussion before I went to the therapist about, you can’t talk about certain things. And I told him, well, if we don’t talk about those things, that are some of the major issues. How will we resolve our problems? And I couldn’t say certain things without fear of what the reaction would be when we returned home. Therapy & Depression Marcie: And the therapist would not allow me to speak. And we did have a test. There were a bunch of questions that we were both supposed to fill out. I answered things honestly, and it came back that I was depressed. He mocked me for that, made fun of me for that. And it just emphasized that I was the problem because I was depressed. It emphasized his impression that it was my fault, and yeah, I couldn’t handle everything. Anne: He’s like, you’re going to work full time and take care of these kids full time. Your depression is causing me problems because dinner’s not on the table. He’s an exploitative person with an exploitative character. One of the things I want women to think about is what do they want? What is the goal of him telling you that you’re depressed? Is it to get you to work harder? Or is it to get you to feel bad about yourself? Is it to get you to stop trying to get him to do something? They usually have something in mind that they’re trying to accomplish. In your case, I think he probably worried you might find out who he was, because he relied on you for everything. Marcie: I definitely believe that was the case. That was towards the end of our, I don’t know if you could call it a relationship, whatever it was. And I had started to question him a lot more. I had started to say no a lot more, which, by the way, for anybody before they get into a relationship, there’s a simple test. The “No” Test, Manipulation & Control Marcie: It’s the ‘no” test. You say no to something and see how they react. And that’s the simplest, easiest way to figure out how people react. But I started saying no. And of course, I became more problematic. I became more difficult. Anne: He wanted you to continue to say yes. So he’s manipulative when he says, that’s why you’re saying no. Because you’re certainly not saying no, because it’s an unreasonable request I’m making. Marcie: Most of us in this situation experience the fact. That the way we do things for them, the way we bend over backwards to make them happy, they love. It’s not a problem for them at all. So they have a hard time seeing that there’s a problem in a relationship, because for them, they get what they want. And if they don’t, they throw a fit, and then usually they do. Anne: It’s working for them. If they can scare you enough or manipulate you enough, the victim resists this type of behavior by doing what he wants. They think that will reduce the behavior, he’s happy about that. She’s still resisting the abuse, and still trying to make things better. She’s always trying to improve her situation. And if she’s trying to improve it by being like, if I do this, he won’t get mad at me. Or if I do this, it’ll improve things. Then he’s like, cool. But he’s not thinking about you. He’s not thinking about your feelings. He’s just trying to get what he wants out of the situation. What Is Post Separation Abuse: Recording Conversations To Maintain clarity Marcie: Absolutely, that depression thing was such a small slice of, there’s gotta be something wrong with me. I started recording things to help me realize that I wasn’t crazy. At first, the only reason why I recorded was he keeps telling me something that didn’t happen. Or he keeps telling me that this conversation didn’t go the way that it did. We’d had circular arguments about well, yes, you said this and this is what you said. “No, I didn’t, I never said that. You’re wrong. See, you can’t remember things correctly. Your brain doesn’t work,” all those negative things that would make me go, what’s wrong with me? Why am I remembering these things incorrectly, or why am I remembering it differently from what he said? And in my mind, I know it went that way. So the only way I could confirm that in my brain was to record the conversations. I want to emphasize how dangerous recording can be if he found out. Because he doesn’t want that, doesn’t want to be contradicted. I started feeling empowered when I realized I’m not crazy. I’m not making this up. Sometimes he accused me of like screaming and yelling at him, and I’d listen to it. I’m like, well, I didn’t scream and yell or this didn’t happen. Whatever it was, it confirmed that what he was saying wasn’t true. And it was so helpful for me to start seeing this as abuse or to see that, there was a problem. Anne: Yeah, that’s very brave of you. And also really awesome. Journaling & Trauma Response Anne: When I went through it, one of the things I did for a very short time was write in my journal, good days and bad days. Because in my head, I thought, okay, he’s just wonky three days a month. And I did the math and I was like, oh, that’s only 10 percent of a month. Is three out of 30 in an ideal marriage, 27 days and 3 days a bad marriage. Is three days worth it? And I did these calculations, but when I actually wrote it down, it was happening every day. I just didn’t notice it was happening every day when I wasn’t tracking it. Recording it or journaling is so helpful. Marcie: I also journaled and feel like that was tremendously helpful. I did that before I started recording. Like what you said, to get an idea of what was happening. Quite a few years ago, I actually had called to get help for him because he threatened suicide. If I didn’t do things his way, he threatened suicide. And so I called for help for him. They referred to someone else, and they told me about power and control wheel. Which helped me understand this too. But I also went to a therapist at that time. And I expressed to her, we’ll have these horrible arguments in the evening. And then the next day I cannot remember them. I can’t remember what they were about. It’s like, I can’t remember anything, no matter how hard I tried. And she explained to me that that is a trauma response to help you function. Living In Between Horrible Things Marcie: She basically explained it to me, as if you remember these difficult situations, you might not be able to function the next day. And so that’s a trauma response. So writing them down is hard, because you have to address them. But then, like what you said, you thought it was only three times a month when it was every day. I think our brains want us to forget the horrible things, so we do. Anne: Well, and also, the next day he seems normal, at least in my experience. I thought, well, maybe I’m crazy. He seems fine today. It wasn’t like the next day he woke up and he was terrible. He acted fine. That made it confusing too like thinking, oh, it’s fine. In those times where you feel desperate for help, that’s a great time to take action. To call a local domestic violence shelter, or attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery group session in that moment. Because you often let it sit for a minute, and then things seem fine, and it doesn’t seem weird to you until it happens again. So you’re always living in between. Marcie: That’s making sense. The only thing is for myself and my situation, I had a fear to reach out for help. Which probably a lot of us do. I just intuitively knew that would be crossing a line of his, which would send him into a negative way. Confronting the reality of Abuse Marcie: And there was a time when we had this situation. Where he chased me through the house and backed me into a corner. I put my hands up, and he was so close to me that my hands were on his chest. And I said, you need to leave me alone. And after that happened, I don’t remember how it ended. But he kept telling me that I had put my hands on him, and he could call the police and say I assaulted him. Because I put my hands on him and he didn’t touch me at all. I was trying to explain to him how that doesn’t sound right. It wasn’t the case, and he said you could call anybody and they would side with me. It was just another typical thing that he would say, how other people would feel about certain situations. And so I said, okay, well then let’s call the domestic abuse hotline right now. And he’s like, go ahead, call. He didn’t think I would call, but I did. They immediately told me, this is not a safe situation. This is not good. But after that call, he was angrier with me than I’ve ever seen him. He explained it to me as the biggest betrayal he has ever felt from me. It was worse than if I had an affair. And I feel like that was because being found out or proved wrong was the worst thing he could experience. Anne: Or he’s just lying in that moment. Marcie: Or lying. Anne: To make you feel like he feels super betrayed for you calling the domestic violence shelter, in order to intimidate you. Marcie: Yes. Lies & Recording Conversations Anne: They lie so much that it’s hard to be like, yeah, that was so devastating for him. Because he told me, I’m thinking, was it? Was it devastating for him? Because he’s a liar. We just never know what is going on in their minds, since they lie so much. Marcie: Well, in looking back, there are so many things that are lies that I didn’t see as lies. Or didn’t want to see as lies or didn’t want to believe as lies that now I know. But that brings me back to the beauty of recording. So flash forward many years from that, that first original recording to now, where four years ago. I got a restraining order, which allowed me to record conversations between him and me, or him and the children. It’s specific for victims of domestic violence who have a restraining order. To record, so I could record and use those recordings in court. Anne: Did he know that you were allowed to do this? Marcie: Yes. Anne: Okay, so he knows he’s being recorded? Marcie: He knows he’s being recorded, but I don’t know if most of these people are like this. He’s very cocky. I think he’d forget, too. Or he didn’t care or didn’t think what he was saying was wrong. In fact, at the beginning, he definitely didn’t think what he was saying was wrong. There were recordings from when he had phone calls and supervised visits. And these were during those phone calls, and he felt okay, because this was the way he was feeling. Differences Between Counties Dealing With Custody Marcie: So it was a right for him to let them know. But when I transcribed those recordings, things such as your mother is trying to kill me by doing this, and your mother hates me. And just things that were not appropriate for children to hear. Anne: You’re recording his phone calls with your kids. This is one way to combat his abuse when fighting a narcissist for custody. Marcie: Correct, and this has been going on for four years. In the meantime, because of those recorded conversations, they’ve limited his phone calls to a shorter amount of time. As well as took away the supervised visits. Which he wasn’t doing anyway, because when I stopped planning them for him, it was too much work or whatever. I don’t know. He didn’t want to pay for it, but he didn’t do it, but they took away that right and made it just phone calls. But another important thing for people in the situation to know is that. The county in which you reside is the court where your custody issues will be heard. And I don’t know if that’s in all states, but I know in California, that’s the issue. So there are many counties that understand domestic abuse. And they try to understand that dynamic when they make decisions regarding the children. There are other counties that do not understand that dynamic. They tend to feel that both parents should be with the children no matter what. And they don’t take into account the background or danger. So for many women who are having some big challenges within the court system, that if they live in another county, they might get a different viewpoint and a different result. Post Separation Abuse INcludes legal maniplulation Marcie: I’ve also experienced, legal abuse where he keeps going back to court. Anne: His post separation abuse includes him taking you back to court, even though you’re divorced and even though he has a protective order? Is his protective order still in place? Marcie: It was made permanent. But in his communication with me previously, he threatened me that he’s going to keep going to court. He has said, this is the only thing you understand. And he’s been in contempt in some ways that have caused me to respond to things worse that have cost me money. Anne: Yeah, it’s so frustrating that they can wreak so much havoc, and the court system doesn’t stop them. It’s a very difficult situation, and that’s why strategy, I think, is so important. And why I created The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. Because confronting them or communicating better, or all the things the therapist might tell you. Or a guardian ad litem might tell you, or reunification therapists will tell you, do not work. So many of you have experienced the trauma of all that. And strategy, we found, is the only thing that can help us stay sane. Financial Manipulation Anne: I mean, he’s costing you all this money. Since you were the primary breadwinner, did he actually start working? Marcie: No. Anne: So he’s doing legal abuse, how is he paying for his legal stuff? Marcie: He keeps saying he’s borrowing money, but I know he’s getting it from family members. It’s just his way. He always has people take care of him or pay for him. And it ties into his narrative of how he will describe what’s happening and make me the villain. Anne: To place him in the victim role. Marcie: Yes. Anne: Rather than the perpetrator. You were the primary breadwinner, did he get alimony from you? Marcie: No. Anne: Whew, he’s probably mad about that. He lost his meal ticket. Marcie: He did. Anne: Yeah, I bet that’s the thing that’s the most anger producing for him. Marcie: Yeah. Anne: You’re not good for anything now. Marcie: I am useless. Anne: Yeah, you’re completely useless to him. That’s what we want to be, we want to be useless. Marcie: Yes. Anne: To these guys. Let’s talk about the smear campaign he started. Smear campaigns are common with post separation abuse. Was this, I guess, during your divorce proceedings? Smear Campaign Marcie: Yes, all along, he leaves out small details, sometimes large details. Or sometimes totally represents things differently from how they are to be the victim. And when I originally contacted you, I asked how do you deal with the smear campaign. This is happening with my in-laws, and it was so upsetting to me to feel like I had lost my in-laws. I’m sure many women have felt the same feeling. I’ve known them since I was a teenager. I feel like they thought of me like a daughter, and the ironic part is they knew how he was. Not to the extent of what I knew, but they knew, and several times his dad said, I’m sorry he’s acting that way. I don’t know why he behaves that way to you sometimes, it doesn’t sound right. His mom would say similar things, things like, if he keeps treating the children that way, they’re not going to want to talk to him. They knew how he was. He would treat them that same way, but they don’t want to talk to me. My adult children have refused to talk to their father, and they feel like that’s horrible. His post separation abuse includes his lies to everyone about me. They don’t interact with them. They barely interact with their younger grandchildren anymore. And it’s just sad, but at first it was really, really upsetting. And then I realized, well, if they’re believing him. If they’re going to stand beside him when he’s abusive and believe things that aren’t true. I guess it has to be okay that those people aren’t in my life anymore. What Is Post Separation Abuse: False Memories & Manipulation Marcie: Oh, that’s so hard. So, on the phone calls with the kids, he tells them things that aren’t true. Well, gosh, there are so many things that he does to them that I feel are so damaging for them. They’re not small, tiny children, but still. He plants false memories. Do you remember when we did this together, and this together? Or I have the memory of whatever it was, being miserable because he didn’t want to go, or they weren’t behaving, Like, for instance, my youngest is 12 and my oldest is 31. My ex-husband was really into baseball. He played when he was a kid. None of the kids had done any type of baseball or organized sports. The younger children wanted to, but weren’t able to when we were together. There was always an excuse we’re not going to have time, whatever. But after I left, it was the first time my youngest son was enrolled in Little League, and he loved it. My ex husband kept saying, remember when we used to go outside and play baseball all the time? I always wanted you to be in sports, but it couldn’t work because of mom’s schedule. Anne: It’s your mom’s fault that you couldn’t take baseball. Yeah, Um hmm. That’s one example of manipulation being a tactic of post separation abuse. Your ex is using the kids to hurt you. Marcie: And I think, well, before I would have fallen into that and felt the guilt. But now I think, well, okay, if it was my fault, then how come I did that after I left you? But I couldn’t do it when there were two people in the home? Impact On Children Marcie: It was so much harder to do anything. But just the false memories of, we used to go out and play catch all the time, which is not true. A lot of those type of things. The criminal things or the things he did to break the restraining order. There were so many more things, but they don’t address it in the way you’d like. Let’s put it that way. But I don’t talk to the kids about the court cases or anything like that, because I feel it’s not for them to be concerned about it. I don’t want them to be part of that. But he would tell them incorrect information about what they’re about, leave out all the important things, and tell them that Mom’s doing this because she doesn’t want me to see you. Those types of things damaged my relationship with the children. Anne: And that’s the point. He’s purposefully doing that to do damage. It damages you and the kids, and that is the intent of post separation abuse, which is so unfortunate. Marcie: It is very hard. Only two out of six of my children will speak with him. Of the two that do, that’s obviously where it’s the most damaging. I’m having trouble with my 17 year old because he’s trying to be the cool dad. He’s encouraging him to stay out late on school nights, not with friends, but with him, and he’s missed school. And he’s actually not supposed to see him, but that’s another thing. He’s luring them with being able to buy them things. Anne: Does he have a job now? Marcie: No, he does not. He gets money from family members, and he claims to be homeless. Yet he purchases things for them. Processing The Abuse Marcie: That’s where recording comes in wonderfully, because we do have a court case that he started. He wants custody again. And I think this time I’m including a lot of recordings that I’ve transcribed, which has been helpful. Anne: It started when you were 14, and has continued this whole time, and everything he’s done has been part of that con. And he continues to do that con. You are experiencing post separation abuse. He lies to your kids, and he lies to everybody else. So the whole thing has been the show. So if you can think of it in that overarching way of, it’s been this show. And then, how do you tell the story within that con? That might help you process it. Marcie: When you put it in that sense, it is just a continuous con. He’s just reaching and grabbing for different cons that will work. That helps put it in perspective. Anne: Yeah, because he’s doing the same thing over and over. Even though it’s maybe not the same lie. It’s lying in a different way, but it’s still just lying. Marcie: Looking back at it, it feels so surreal. Like it feels like it’s not real because it’s so insane. Does that make sense? Anne: Um hmm, totally. Marcie: And I feel like people aren’t going to believe me, because how could that be true? How could anyone act like that? Plus, he’s saying something different. So I think I still have a lot of healing to do, which is frustrating. What Is Post Separation Abuse: We can help you understand Anne: That’s the purpose of this podcast. It’s a safe place where everybody gets it and believes you. We don’t care what he says or thinks, we know he’s a liar. Here, you’re 100% believed. What is post separation abuse? We know and can help. So because of that, it’s such a safe place to be. Like, I can share my story, and he’s not going to talk back to me. Marcie: Sometimes when you share your story with people who don’t understand, they back away or it’s just too much. Anne: With me, I’m like, tell me more. So thank you so much, Marcie. Marcie: Thank you so much. FROM CONFUSION TO CLARITY: ANOTHER WOMAN’S STORY OF POST SEPARATION ABUSE Anne: I’m so excited to have another member of our community on today’s episode. We’re going to call her Mykell. She’s a single mother of three and believes women can discover a life of peace, power and purpose post separation. Even if they’re experiencing post separation abuse. Welcome Mykell. Mykell: Thank you so much for having me. I’m so glad to talk to you. Anne: Your story is similar to so many of our stories where you didn’t know that you were being abused. And you figured it out. Can you tell us your story? Mykell: For me, the story is a slow unfolding one. I met my ex-husband when I was in high school. Anybody who knew us could say that our relationship had been rocky from the start. Me, being 17 years old and not knowing much about myself or relationship dynamics. I just thought, all relationships are hard, and I’m not perfect either. And gradually over the years and decades, as things unfolded. It became clear that there was a spiritual separation in our relationship. As he continued to make various choices. It got rockier, and the thing that’s confusing in these situations is I’m not a shrinking violet. So when someone consistently attacks you, sometimes you will stand up for yourself, you’ll fight back. So that’s what kept things confusing for me for a long time. Going round and around and around was this thought that I’m participating in how this relationship is shaping up. As time went on, I started to say, I don’t want to respond this way anymore. I don’t want to live my life like this anymore. Seeking Help Mykell: And I started seeking counseling on my own, and in the midst of that, the relationship actually got worse. So in choosing to disengage and better ways of handling my own emotions in the situation. It made it clear that we were on two separate paths. As life continued to go on, there were some choices he made that eventually were deal breakers and broke everything apart. I started getting language for what I was going through, and started getting clarity. It’s been three years since the marriage ended, but now through the community to connect with other women who are going through the same things. I started that healing process. And get help with post separation abuse. Anne: What brought you to understand that what you experienced was abuse? This it wasn’t just that marriage is hard work. Overall, you were realizing, wait a minute, these behaviors I’m seeing in him are unhealthy, the healthier you got. But what actually helped you consider abuse? Recognizing Abuse Patterns Mykell: I went to a counselor about a totally separate issue. It started to unravel as I explained to her, well, this happened, and then he said this and yada, yada. She said to me, you know, this is abuse, right? And I thought to myself, really? I don’t know that I fully grabbed onto what she was saying. But I started reading some books, and I started seeing my story in what these experts were writing about. Mykell: And I thought, how did I ever miss this? We think we’re going to see this thing coming from a mile away, and it’s going to be so obvious that we’re going to know. But so often something feels off, but you probably would not put that word abuse to it. You’d probably say this person has anger issues or this person had trauma in their backstory or … Anne: They have an addiction. Mykell: Yep, it’s something that we end up couching underneath this banner of imperfection that we all have. Not realizing that the power dynamics are intentional, that there’s something bigger at play. https://youtu.be/t-Kt15CpMdY I said, I didn’t want to be part of that kind of thing anymore. And so that was how the road started to get to being healthy. It became so clear that we had different intentions about the way that was all going to happen. Anne: Different ways of viewing the relationship. You were viewing it as a partnership, and he’s viewing it as I have power over, essentially. Which continues with post separation abuse. Especially if they’re doing an in-home separation. Mykell: I hesitate to say relationship. The only way this sort of arrangement continues is when there’s a disparity, and one of the parties is seeing this as a means to an end. Post Separation Abuse: Power Dynamics In Relationships Anne: He has some goal is controlling the information. For example, there’s a power differential because they have more information than someone else. Before you ever defined it as abuse, did you define it as a addiction? Mykell: This was something completely. under the radar for me. I was not even aware of all the things going on. Some behaviors and things unbeknownst to me started to come out in the midst of that process. But there was nothing before. That was like a precursor. Anne: So you were like, something is wrong, but you couldn’t put your finger on it. And the abuse came first. And then later you realized, Oh, and he’s also using pornography. That’s important to talk about, because so many people don’t include the this when they talk about abuse. And I always want to bring it into the story to say, and there was an issue here. So people know it is part of this mess of unhealthiness. Mykell: Yeah, and I think the thing we have to recognize with the mess of unhealthiness. There are so many types of abuse when you’re looking at the classification of what’s domestic violence. So often we think that’s only physical. And there’s emotional, there’s sexual, there’s spiritual, financial, so many ways that someone can gain power over another person. And often it’s not even just one or two. It often covers all these categories, and so because it can be very encompassing, it makes it hard to see. Anne: Yeah, if it were just he’s absolutely shutting down the bank account and won’t let you have any money. That might be a little more obvious. Especially with post separation abuse. Challenges of Co-Parenting Anne: But the little ways he’s financially abusive, or if he said God told me I can beat you up. You’d be like, well, that’s clear it’s spiritual abuse. But it’s unclear if it’s spiritual abuse if he’s kneeling down and praying by you and saying, please help my wife be more godly. Help her understand how to be a better wife, when biblical submission becomes abuse. That doesn’t necessarily feel like spiritual abuse. From your experience, what issues do single mothers commonly encounter when raising children with an abuser? Especially counter parenting. Now, when I say raising them with an abuser, meaning you’re divorced from them, but they’re still in your life because they’re your child’s parent. Mykell: Right, one of the difficult things is constantly trying to explain things to your former partner or trying to make decisions with them. As though they can have effective, honest, open communication. So often, it’s just a continued open door for manipulation and control to continue with post separation abuse. It is so essential to understand that it is possible to continue this walk without continually having to hand your life back over to this person. Anne: Even if you’re expertly skilled at dealing with your ex, and you’ve got great boundaries. And you’re detached and you have all the skills going for you. Your ex can still technically abuse you because you’re being lied to, you’re being manipulated. It’s still not your fault if you don’t “communicate perfectly” with your abuser. He’s abusing you. You can do your best to be as highly skilled as possible in communication with an abuser. Living Free Workshop Anne: But it still has nothing to do with you, and it’s not your fault if they still don’t react well to whatever you try. I struggled with post-separation abuse for eight years after divorce. Until I found the strategies that really, really worked, and was able to completely.deliver myself and my kids. I put those strategies in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop. It saved me, it absolutely saved me. I mentored five different women to ensure that these strategies worked. And those women’s actual real life messages are in that workshop. Mykell: Yep, having specific tactics is great, and also having a certain mindset. So if this person has lied to you, manipulated you, you can expect that’s still happening. Post Separation Abuse: Use Our Family Wizard Mykell: What you do in your communication is limit the opportunities for that to occur. I’m not going to get into the emotions or reason, or I don’t like that you did that. Not having to get too deep into the weeds. When you’re getting stuff hurled at you, absolutely have those safe people you’re like, I can’t believe this happened. They can help you work through the frustration, disappointment and hurt that is necessary. It makes it easy to say, okay, I’m only gonna show what needs to be forward facing to this person. In terms of the logistic side of this. But when it comes to all my emotional stuff, I’ve got safe people, and I know where to get the support I need. Depending on your situation, it may cause things to get a little riled up. For a while, they want to see if they can get a reaction from you. But over time, if you’re consistent and don’t offer reactions, and we’re not trying to be friends. Then it can get to a workable place in many instances. Anne: So for a long time on the podcast, I touted no contact, which I did through my father, and that worked, and I was like, everybody should do this. But then I had a custody case that I lost. In the process, I needed to switch to Our Family Wizard, rather than go through my dad, so that I could communicate directly with him, which I do now. I still have blocked him on my phone, blocked him on email. And I only communicate with him through Our Family Wizard. I never communicate with him in any other way. It needs to be taken seriously for all women dealing with an abusive ex-husband. Manipulated Parenting Anne: Many people have this idea in their heads. One of the manipulative things he told me was, I dream of a day where we can sit on a park bench and watch our kids play and get along. He said that to me to manipulate me into communicating with him. And I’m like, that’s never going to happen. Let’s talk about that idea, the concept of co-parenting when it comes to post separation abuse. Can you co parent with an abuser? Mykell: The word co-parenting suggests you have two people who are parenting together. We have to recognize that in some divorce cases, people can maintain an amicable relationship. In which the children are not being used as power weapons. The relationship dynamic is not this push-pull. These two people are going on with the best interests of the kids. Because if this person is not going to put the kid’s best interest first, and is not going to play by the rules. If you can’t establish any rules without them being manipulated. Then you know that you are parenting on your own, and this person is parenting on their own. Anne: I wouldn’t even call it parenting. It’s like you’re parenting on your own, and this other person is like actively trying to cause problems, which is not what I would call parenting. Mykell: It’s difficult, because we want so much to have influence over what is happening in that household, and we’re just not able to. That is the part that gets really hard, it gets heavy, it’s disconcerting, it’s scary. When you’re in that kind of situation while your kids are with you, that you are present with them. Being Your Kid’s Safe Place Mykell: If you can bring wonderful, healthy people into their lives to do outings with them, and I’m not saying you have to be super mom. I’m not saying you have to throw these elaborate birthday parties. This is about being your kid’s safe place. So if there are unsafe things happening when they’re away from you, and this is something we would want. Whether that unsafe stuff was happening at a parent’s house or in school. They know Mom is safe, that when I bring her my problem, she will listen and comfort me. Maybe offer some support or solutions. Learning how to do that when you yourself are underwater is hard. The investments that you put into yourself as far as your own healing and support groups will pass on to your kids. If you’re like, that sounds overwhelming. That’s a lot of things. Even focusing on getting stable, healthy, and strong yourself, you’ll know what conversations you should bring up. You’ll know when your child says, I don’t like that, the other parents doing X, Y, or Z. They can come to you and offer them real compassion. For every little thing that happens, we worry so much that, this is not going the way I wanted. And this is going to be their doom. God is so much bigger than all the things that we’re going through with post separation abuse. If we look at this from a long range perspective, I want to be that safe place for my kids and do the best I can to be there for them. When they start to feel the friction, and start to feel like something is wrong. They know they have an option, and whether they choose it, that’s also out of our control. Post Separation Abuse: Use Parallel Parenting Mykell: There are so many parts of life in general, and this is one of them, outside our control. We do our best to create a safe and solid place, beginning with our own health. Anne: So the short answer is no. You cannot co-parent with an abuser. Parallel parenting is the way to go. You just worry about what’s going on when you’re the parent and do the best you can. And then the things he’s doing, you could confront him about it, but we all know where that goes. Speaking of parallel parenting with post separation abuse, can you talk about that for a minute? Mykell: This goes back to trying to manage the feelings. Let’s say there’s a divorce decree, and let’s say dad is supposed to take the kids on this night and this night. It’s a fine balance here when they perhaps would say something like, oh, well, I can’t take them that night. I’ll take them this one or, oh, sorry. I had to do this, and I can’t come get them tonight. We want to say, well, this is what the paper says, this is what the agreement is. Sometimes we might get so caught in those very specific rules. Hey no, you should want to take your kids, or you should want to be with them, or you should be coming to their things. We’re re-engaging, and it’s an open door for a discussion or argument. Their choices are their own choices. And so if the child’s not being picked up and hurts their feelings. The fix is not necessarily to say, I need to figure out a way to get him to pick our child up. Managing Expectations Mykell: This is a way for the child to understand his choices. Sometimes it’s hurtful to have to walk our kids through that. We can’t cover up or try to get them to do what they’re supposed to do, or make excuses. In this instance, the sugar coating is more harmful, they’re not able to discern the truth. That’s the biggest thing: always give kids as much age appropriate truth as they can digest. And that’s where learning how to offer support is so important, because it is truth, with love. It’s truth saying. I know this is hurtful, and I’m sorry this is happening. We’re not going to be able to fix it. If we want our kids to understand where that road to healing can come from, if we’re truthful with them all along the way. How we empower our kids by giving them truth, rather than trying to sweep it under the rug, fix it, or cover it up. Anne: Or manage an abuser’s relationship with his children. Mykell: Yeah, I love that word “management.” It’s such a perfect word. You can’t go in there and manage everything with post separation abuse. Sometimes the best thing you can do is simply allow that thing to play itself out. And as much as we would not want to see our kids hurt, as much as we would not want them to suffer anymore. It is a greater disservice if you are whitewashing the whole thing. Making it look like it’s not, because then eventually the truth does come out. And then they will be frustrated with you for not being truthful with them. It can cause them to feel alienated. It can cause them to feel that you’re not safe. Empowering Children Mykell: That’s the biggest thing that we can offer our kids in these situations with post separation abuse, is that safe place. Anne: Yeah, that drives me crazy when someone does something clearly not a good thing that a parent would do. And a neighbor or some “helpful” bystander will say, well, of course he loves you. He’s just busy. Or of course he cares about you. He just, and I’m like, no, no, no you’re not his top priority, not that I would necessarily say that, but let that play out. And never tell your kid, of course, he loves you when you’re like, he’s incapable of loving anyone. Mykell: And the thing that ends up happening if you do that is you’re essentially gaslighting your kid. You’re causing them to question their own reality when you call it something else. Anne: Because they don’t feel loved, for good reason, because their dad is selfish or incapable of loving them. So in that way, what are your thoughts about raising a child in ways that prevent them from being manipulated or deceived? How can we help our kids recognize the truth with post separation abuse? Mykell: This is something built up over time. You’re not going to have a one-time conversation with your child about the things they’re going through. Or, hey, watch out for this, and then that’s it. If you’re having ongoing conversations with them, this can even be manipulation at school with bullies. Recognizing, how did you feel when that person treated you that way? Practicing with them what it is to identify feelings gives them the ability to process, watch and give context. Post Separation Abuse: Equiping Children Mykell: As they get older, they start to look at inconsistencies, recognize them, and try to make sense of them. If they do bring you a concern, that validation of what they see or feel is so good. You can do that in a way that is not making the thing personal, it’s not bashing, it’s simply saying you see a behavior and it makes you feel uncomfortable. That is normal. As they start to have those conversations with you, they can trust you. That instinct, or that move of the Holy Spirit, the inner voice that says, something feels unsafe and uncomfortable here. What often happens, I think, in manipulative dynamics. There is some sort of off moment, some red flag, something that is seen and not acted upon, or it’s explained away. So one of the best things we can do for our kids in post separation abuse situations is equip them. When they see something strange or bad, inconsistent or manipulative. That we can put that right word to it and say, yeah, that is confusing. It makes sense that you’d be confused in that situation. This is where, in parallel parenting, you’re not able to control what happens over at that other house. But you can send your kids into any environment with an understanding of what to do if they feel uncomfortable. That may look different depending on whether they have devices, whether they can drive. But it’s teaching them what are those healthy ways to address these situations. Because very often they’re not going to feel they can stand up and say something, and they may feel even in the moment, like they can’t even go anywhere. Helping Children With Safety Mykell: It’s letting them know. Hey, if you feel something’s funny, write it down. Or if you need to text me or you need a FaceTime or you need to leave the room and go to your bedroom. Whatever it is you devise with your child, to let them know some way to get to safety. If they’re in a dangerous situation, we want to make sure they understand how to get hold of safe adults or support authorities. Anne: Yeah, for good little kids, I liked the book, Say No, and Tell. There’s a girl version and a boy version. It’s generally about sexual abuse, but it gives many examples: this is safe, this is unsafe, this is safe, this is unsafe. Even just using books like that to start conversations about it. My kids now tell me all the time when they feel safe or unsafe, or when they feel uncomfortable. My little six year old is so good at saying, mom, I’m uncomfortable. This makes me feel uncomfortable, and I’m grateful. Mykell: That’s so good. Just saying uncomfortable is great. Sometimes they can’t figure out what the feeling is, or even like the word overwhelmed. Like there’s a lot of feelings. I don’t know what they all are. Saying if you don’t know what all those are right now, that’s okay. All you know is your body’s giving you an alert that you can honor that alert system. And that you can get to safety. Anne: One of the things that victims feel, Sheroes who have pulled themselves out of the depths of abuse. They make their way to safety, and don’t feel confident. Because a lifetime of abuse or years of abuse or continued post separation abuse has really messed with our brains. Building Confidence As A Mom Anne: This can be true when dating when an ex has covert narcissist traits. And our psychology, and the amount of doubt we have in ourselves from emotional and psychological abuse, is pretty extreme. We’re learning to trust ourselves again. We’re learning to trust our intuition again. There are so many things that as a victim of abuse, you’re learning to do either again or for the first time. So in what ways can moms be confident in raising their kids, even in a less than ideal situation? Mykell: Yeah, I love that you pointed to the fact that there’s a lot of doubt that every mom experiences. And then with abuse and post separation abuse, there’s this added layer on top of it. And it’s the inability to discern sometimes what is even going on. Sometimes it’s a paralysis of not knowing what to do. Giving yourself grace to know that’s the boat you’re in right now. Just because you’re there right now. It doesn’t mean you’re always going to feel that way, or that if you do feel that way, you’re always going to feel powerless about it. You’re not doing this all by yourself. For me, figuring out how to raise my kids with this different life, this life I didn’t intend for us. Wonderful people dropped into my life that had walked the road before me that could show me. What this thing was supposed to look like. And it didn’t mean everything was going to be exactly cookie cutter. Sometimes it’s moms sharing the things they’re going through in Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. Sharing their legal troubles or discipline issues. In support groups, you realize, I am not alone. I’m not the only one who feels like this. Post Separation Abuse: Confidence Starts With Validation Mykell: I’m not the only one whose kid is doing this or whose ex is doing that. So much confidence starts when your experience is validated and you’re being heard. And you see that many people are going through similar things. And when there are so many ideas around things you could do or avenues you could take. That I think is so empowering to say there’s actually more than one way to walk through this. Though I may not get it perfectly, we’re all in this together. When you’re coming out of this kind of situation, you feel isolated, and sometimes you’ve been isolated. So self isolating is a normal thing. And forcing yourself back out and learning how to trust people can be hard. I’m so thankful that we’re in this digital age where these virtual groups are possible, a community. So when you think about what is the practical step, how do I start to do this? Working through your own healing journey is a big part of that. And God brings the ultimate transformation for us as we walk through these things with him. But one of the practical ways we experience is with other wonderful, safe people around us. Anne: We’ve seen that a lot at Betrayal Trauma Recovery and Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. It’s awesome, because there’s no right way to do it. There are principles. Using boundaries to detach and keep safe, self care, a network of support. Anyone who’s worth their salt in recovering from abuse or post separation abuse will tell you those things. Those are important tools, but sometimes implementing it is hard, and how you’re going to implement it in your own life is hard. Group Meetings Are Important For Recovery Anne: Being part of a group and hearing how other women do it, or hearing other women and realizing, that doesn’t sound like it’s working. You don’t have to say that out loud, but at least you can hear it and think, okay, I don’t want to try that. It’s cool to share what’s happening with you and hear what’s happening with other people. Then the freedom to choose what you want to do. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we don’t recommend any particular life decisions. We put safety as the top priority, emotional, psychological, and physical. How you do that is up to you. I think women need the support of a community without the dogma of the community. Does that make sense? Mykell: Yeah, the thing that is so critical about what you’re saying is the style points. She did it this way, and that doesn’t fit my personality, but she did it this way. There’s so much in recovery that is about finding your own voice and making choices for yourself. And so many of these things, like you said, boundaries is a perfect example. Boundaries were so hard for me. I didn’t realize I didn’t have any. Or I didn’t realize that mine were so porous. And I would look at other women and be like, oh, no, that’s so abrupt. I don’t like the way they’re doing that. In the midst of getting to know different people, though, it was like, oh, that style works for me. It’s rediscovering, and I actually don’t like to say rediscovering, because I don’t know if we ever knew ourselves. Sometimes with these things, it’s discovering who you are, what your unique voice is, and how you can assert yourself in these instances of abuse and post separation abuse. Christian Perspectives On Abuse Mykell: It’s empowering. I’m feeling juiced up as I say this, to start to recognize how much agency you have. That’s what makes many of these tactics come to life. When you start to figure out your own voice. Anne: At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’re interfaith, inter paradigm. We have atheists who listen, we have agnostics, and all denominations of Christianity, Jewish women, everyone is welcome here. Talk about some of the Christian myths or unhealthy cultural ideas in Christianity that harm women and keep them stuck in abuse. Mykell: One of the things we have to separate out, and this is not just when it comes to abuse or post separation abuse. There are so many areas. Not always do people reflect the heart of God perfectly. People, whether intentionally or unintentionally, can hurt each other with the banner of the gospel to justify their choices or behaviors. And recognize that there are some things that maybe a woman’s been told. Maybe she’s witnessed, maybe she’s experienced, maybe she’s been raised up in systems, all these kinds of things that don’t necessarily reflect the heart of God. So often there is this sense that whether it’s the husband or ex-husband who’s the abuser. Often women receive advice, and it’s well meaning in abuse or post separation abuse. But sometimes the advice is, you be the best you can be, and this person will change. Biblically, the word says God hates abuse. He hates it. In Proverbs 6, you can read through there. It says there are seven things God hates, and it lists off lying lips and hands that shed blood, and all these things. That if you look at them, they are the behaviors of an abuser. Anne: Adultery, lust. Post Separation Abuse: Biblical Teachings On Abuse Mykell: There’s a passage, and I’m going to mess it up right now because it’s not sitting in front of me, but I believe it’s in 2nd Timothy 1. Paul says to Timothy, in the last days, people will be lovers of self. They’re going to be abusive. They’re going to look like they have godliness, that they’re going to portray godliness, but be totally lacking its power. And that we should avoid such people. Those are pretty clear statements to say that you need to get away from somebody who’s abusive, someone who is using spiritual means to manipulate other people. And Paul thought it was so obvious and so dangerous that he thought to write to Timothy about it. And so we should take that same warning. With a community of believers, there’s vulnerability, and with that comes manipulation from people who would use it for selfish gain. So the intention in our communities should be to offer safety and vulnerability, and to ensure that we are clear about rooting out what would take advantage of that. That’s not always the message that people receive that are in abusive type of circumstances. Anne: In the church, when you talk about evil, or you talk about wolves in sheep’s clothing. You’re thinking about it as someone outside the church who’s trying to lure you away from the church. Or trying to influence you to not live the commandments. And it’s so infrequent that anyone addresses evil in the church. Or in your own home. Recognizing Evil Mykell: Yeah, and the Bible says Satan will masquerade as an angel of light. We need to recognize that. Yes, can there be people from the outside trying to come in and infiltrate the inside? 100%, but do they also exist on the inside? Also, yes, 100%. Anne: Right, and it might be in your own home. Mykell: Mm hmm, that’s right. We have to recognize, and Jesus goes through the steps in Matthew 18. We are called to see it, call it what it is, and we’re called to move ourselves away from that and get to safety. That is a biblical way of handling an abusive situation. Your life is precious to God, and all that is designed to keep you very much fixed in the center of his love and protection for you. There’s only so much you can do to walk with somebody when they are resistant. They don’t want to see the truth, that we’re called to move ourselves away from that, so that they can walk in their own path. God desires safety for his people, does desire them to flourish. He desires each woman in this instance to become the woman he had designed her to be, and not sacrifice that for the sake of a person who is not willing to turn their lives over. Anne: They’re essentially sacrificing it to evil almost. And women think of it as sacrificing themselves to something better, because they’re trying to protect their families. But the reality is they’re not sacrificing themselves to something better. They’re sacrificing themselves to abuse, which is not the better way. Calling Out & Separating From Wickedness Mykell: Calling it evil is so important. If the Bible says God hates it, we should hate it. If it says it’s evil, we should call it evil. It’s not a bad behavior. bad manners, or short temper. It’s evil. All of these things are considered abuse. Anne: The scriptures don’t say abuser, the scriptures use the word wicked. I’m loving that word. Mykell: Right, in Proverbs often you’ll see the word wicked, mocker, sometimes fool. Proverbs uses a handful of different words to describe people who do these things. But in all these instances, it says to get away. It says if you rebuke a mocker, they’re going to abuse you. So that says you’re not going to have a reasonable conversation with this person. Sometimes your separation, your distance, your movement away from this person is the communication. It’s certainly meant for you to gain some distance and safety, because it’s much more likely they’re going to influence you than you’re going to influence them. Anne: We suffer from betrayal trauma, which changes the way we think, changes our brains, changes our chemistry in our bodies. So many women suffer from health problems and depression. It’s a serious issue. Thank you so much for coming on today’s episode.
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  3 Examples Of Misogyny Your Husband May Be Doing Right Now 18.08.2026 25dk

  Most women would probably not describe their husband as misogynistic. But some examples of misogyny are so subtle, you may be surprised to realize your husband is doing them. 3 EXAMPLES OF MISOGYNY 1. HE NEEDS A LIST FOR EVERY HOUSEHOLD CHORE Your husband might say he is happy to help around the house, but only if you tell him exactly what to do. He might expect you to write detailed lists, remind him to finish chores, or walk him through basic childcare tasks. By waiting for your directions before lifting a finger, or leaving things unfinished, he forces you to carry the entire mental load of running your home and maintaining your relationship. When your husband doesn’t help with the housework it shifts those responsibilities completely onto your shoulders, because of misogyny, leaving you feeling more like his personal assistant or his mother than his equal partner. 2. HE CHOOSES INAPPROPRIATE MATERIAL OVER TRUE INTIMACY Many women might not even know this is happening. He might hide his misogyny. What a woman might notice is that her husband doesn’t seem truly interested in her. He might ignore her by spending long hours in his office or on hobbies, until he needs something from her. He may give excuses like, “I have a ton of work to do. You go to bed. I’ll come when I’m done” or “I’m stressed and I need to go cool off,” while he secretly uses that time to pursue fantasy over his real-life marriage. This behavior undermines the emotional and physical intimacy that is foundational to a healthy marriage, leaving you feeling isolated, unwanted, and unloved. 3. HE APPLIES DIFFERENT STANDARDS TO YOU THAN TO HIMSELF BECAUSE OF MISOGYNY Misogyny often shows up when your husband holds you to different standards than he does for himself. For example: he might criticize you for buying clothes or something for your home, while he spends freely on his personal hobbies, or he expects you to keep a tidy house while leaving his belongings scattered in every room. This double standard often extends to shared finances. He may hide money, refuse access to bank statements, or pat you on the head with phrases like, “I’ll take care of the finances, you don’t need to worry about it.” This behavior strips you of your voice and agency, leaving you in the vulnerable position of not having access to betrayal trauma resources you need to live in emotional safety. To find out if your husband is using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test. For strategies to deal with this type of abuse and establish peace in your home, enroll in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop. Key takeaways from the interview: Recognizing Patterns of Misogyny in Relationships How Misogyny Interferes with Truth and Healing in Therapy When Your Husband Uses the Truth to Lie The Connection Between Misogyny and Inappropriate Media TRANSCRIPT: FINDING SUPPORT AND NAMING THE REALITY OF EXAMPLES OF MISOGYNY Anne: Welcome Virginia. Virginia: Thank You for everything you do. I would be lost without BTR. You have seriously brought me back to life. Anne: Oh, I’m so glad to hear that. How did you find out about BTR and betrayal trauma in marriage? Virginia: It was the oddest thing. Something came up on YouTube that showed BTR.ORG. I tell you fate, whatever you wanna call it, I checked it out and that’s how I found BTR. When I started attending the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. The first session, I couldn’t believe in a sense of relief that, oh, I’m not the only person living in this world. And not that it’s relieving to know that other women suffer in this manner. You feel like you’re on your own planet. And you don’t know what to do. Hearing the other women’s stories in what they’ve been through is just heartbreaking. But the ability to share and validate each other is amazing. And the coaches listen so well. The feedback they give is invaluable. They’re on top of it and they remember everything. I don’t know how they do it. I’m not on very often. I know other people are on much more often than I am. But I’m telling you, this is a lifesaver. It really is. I don’t know what else to say. I can’t say enough about it. Anne: I am so grateful. It’s helpful. I think our coaches are incredible. Our whole team is incredible. I think one of the reasons we’re incredible is because we’ve all been through it with misogyny, so we understand it on such a visceral level. And then we have really great training and we know what we’re talking about. UNDERSTANDING WHAT EXAMPLES OF MISOGYNY ARE IN MARRIAGE Anne: I’m really happy that it was helpful to you. Let’s start with your story and the misogyny you endured. Virginia: So I married my Chuck in 2002. I married once before for seven years. I have two children from that first marriage. It occurred to me after realizing what was going on in this current marriage. That I was also experiencing more physical abuse and sexual abuse in the first marriage. So this has been an eye opening experience. The entire beginning of our marriage, he made me feel unattractive. That he did not want to be intimate. He was tired, too busy, and worked so hard and all this. And I would think to myself, that doesn’t seem to add up to me, and I couldn’t quite understand. But as a woman, you take it out on yourself and think, what am I doing wrong? What am I not doing right? Am I not pretty enough? I had discovered so many things, pornographic materials, books, cross-dressing clothes in his car. Magazines everywhere. And I confronted him on this. Because here I am, newly married, with two small children of eight and six years old. My thought was, I can’t put them through this again. I can’t have another divorce, it will devastate them. And I knew at the time that it was wrong. He told me he was going to get help and take care of this. He brushed away a lot of it as nothing. I was just in shock and trusted him. FINDING INAPPROPRIATE MATERIAL – MY HUSBAND BLAMED IT ON OUR SON Virginia: Fast forward a little bit. My son was about 10 and the basement was not finished at the time. I had it set up so the kids could play. And there was a little TV down here for them. Well, I found pornographic videos tucked into the couch and behind the couch. I went to my husband and said, “You’ve gotta be kidding with me right now. The kids play down there. You can’t do this. This is unacceptable.” And his answer was, ” Oh, it must be our son’s, he must be looking at the videos.” Anne: It’s just so offensive to me that they don’t even care about kids. They’ll exploit and use children. There’s no excuse for the misogyny. Virginia: Right . then three or four years later, I had upstairs in the kitchen, a computer. Because I want them to do their homework in there. This one night they went to bed. I was going to play solitaire and I find porn. So I called him out into the kitchen and again he swore, “I will get help. I’m going to do this, I’m going to do that.” And went to therapy and all of this. So here we are. He’s been going to a 12-Step program for all this time. It’s been 20 years. This is an interesting thing, and I find common through conversations that I’ve heard through the other women. You know something is wrong, and I couldn’t pinpoint exactly what was wrong. DISCOVERING THAT HE’S HIDING MONEY Virginia: The first thing I found was the money. He was hiding money all throughout the house in books, you name it, thousands of dollars hidden. I didn’t tell him I knew that there was money hidden everywhere. He figured out that I found it, because all of a sudden the money was all moved out of the hidden places. I still, till this day, have no idea where all that money went. This is evidence of misogyny. He said, “We spent it”. I said, “No, we didn’t.” Then we started to redo the basement. I cleaned out the basement, and found every single one of those magazines. He supposedly threw away 20 years ago. I was furious and didn’t say anything. I packaged every single one of them up in trash bags. And I put them in the back of my car with a bunch of other boxes that I had cleaned out. And when I dropped off the donations, I was going to bring the trash bags with the magazines to the dump. He emptied all of those bags out of my car, every bag. And I never told them I found them. I didn’t say a single word. And I found them in the garage. I took them, and again, I didn’t say anything. I brought them out to the fire pit, and God forgive me, I burnt every single one of them because I was so mad. And two weeks later, he went out to the fire pit, and he came and he said, ” Hey, do you wanna help me clean up that mess out in the fire pit that you made?” And I said, “No, I really don’t.” EXAMPLES OF MISOGYNY – LOSING MY INDEPENDENCE Anne: Was he calm when he said it? Virginia: He’s always calm. Anne: That’s so scary. It’s like that chilling kind of calm, right? It’s like terrifying. Virginia: This has been a really difficult situation, because I was supposed to have retired. I am retired, but now I have no independence. And I’m trying feverishly to find a job, so I’m relying on him to pay the bills. I bought this house as a single mother with two small children. And I put his name on it when we married. So now, I’m in a difficult position, so I am here with him in the home with no choice right now, but to stick around until I can find another job. Anne: Until you can figure it out and realize the effects of misogyny.. I am so sorry. Virginia: It is so hard, yeah. Anne: I was gonna ask, before you found the money or the pornography, he was going to 12 Step ? Virginia: He would go every week. He wouldn’t discuss his sobriety, but it was SLAA , Sex, Love, Addiction Anonymous. It’s based off the same 12-Step that AA is based off of. Nobody knew he was going except for me. So in a conversation that we would have privately, his response would be, “Well, I know I go to a 12-Step program every week. I don’t know about them.” He would lord it over people. EXAMPLES OF MISOGYNY – MY HUSBAND THINKS HE’S THE VICTIM Virginia: And by the way, I am also very well educated and have had a fantastic job, and have made the same if not more money than he at times. Someone could take your self-esteem and twist it like that, and make you feel so bad about yourself. Because they’re doing something wrong, and so they’re just sort of taking it out on you. I couldn’t understand. And I’ll be honest with you, I still cannot understand that this person can still continue to lie and do these things after all of these years and look me in the face and say, “I didn’t do that. I don’t know what you’re talking about.” They asked him to leave. I actually paid for him to live in Airbnbs for a few months. Through this, he’s been going to see a therapist, but he’s clearly not telling the truth. What I’m getting is he’s feeling sorry for himself. He’s the victim. He’s the one that’s doing all the work, and he’s trying to make himself better. He left until this last Saturday. And I found more pornography links on his Facebook site, more chat rooms. So all this time we are going through this, and he’s swearing, “I’m doing the very best I can.” And he’s still doing the same things. I found out that it’s worse than I thought it was. So I’m living in a house with this man, who I really have no idea who he is. Because he cannot tell the truth. he’s trying to make me feel bad. And he’s using my son in the whole process. Anne: I am so sorry. That sounds like a nightmare. WHEN THERAPistS ARE FOOLED BY HIS LIES Anne: Before you understood what was happening, did you guys ever go to couple therapy for help? Virginia: I asked him years ago to go to therapy, because I felt he was depressed. His mood swings were so significant. It’s this heavy negative presence. Unnecessary anger, taking things out on people you don’t need to be taking things out on. The entitlement of misogyny. He would come in a room, and you could just feel the negativity coming off of him. He did go to see a therapist. I also went to a therapist. At one point, we met together. But it wasn’t working. The therapist recognized that, which I thank God for. I’d been going to therapy, a specialist, to work with somebody that is addicted to pornography, but also childhood trauma. I did not feel his therapy was working. I asked if I could be invited into one of the sessions. Because I wanted to give her the information that not only is he continuing to do what he was doing, but it’s worse than ever. Her response to me on that was, ” He’s telling a very different story from what you’re telling. And I’ve been doing this for a very long time. It’s very difficult for people to fool me.” And then she said, “Would you like him to get rid of his Facebook page? It seems like you have trust issues.” And I don’t mean to laugh, but I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. IF YOU WANT TO KNOW IF A LIAR IS TRUTHFUL, WATCH THEIR ACTIONS Virginia: She said to him, ” Would you be willing to get rid of your Facebook page?” He’s crying, and he, says, “Yes.” And she said, “Would that make you feel better?” I said, “This is not my call. I’m not here to be his mom or his parent. or for couple therapy. I’m here to give you the information. It’s in black and white. I have photos of what I found.” So just as I’ve heard you talk about, and I’ve heard in group sessions. “This person is now lying to you, and you’re telling me that you believe what that person is saying.” And I also said to her, ” I’ve been married to him for almost 24 years. I know what is true and what is not true.” Anne: It’s crazy to me that a therapist would say, “I’ve been doing this a long time. I know how to tell the truth.” When they have no other way of verifying the truth other than what he’s saying. She just thinks she’s a walking lie detector test or something. You don’t realize with a liar that in order to know the truth, you have to not talk to them, because talking is how they lie. So if you wanna know if a liar is telling the truth or not you have to watch their actions. And how they use misogyny to excuse themselves. THEY DON’T RECOGNIZE THAT TALKING IS HOW THESE GUYS LIE Anne: So any therapist who purports to work with liars, AKA sex addicts, and says to you, “I’ve been doing this a long time, I know when they’re telling the truth.” I’m like, did you hire a private investigator? Are you following them around all the time? How would you know that they’re telling the truth? You’re talking about a master manipulator. It’s crazy to me that they don’t recognize that talking is how these guys lie. Virginia: It makes perfect sense. At the beginning, I had been waiting for him to have an epiphany and say, I’m sorry, I lied. He continues to deny the fact that he blamed my son. He doesn’t remember blaming him on two separate occasions. You don’t remember? Boy, it seared in my brain pretty hard that was an accusation you made towards my son at the age of 10 years old, and the age of 13 years old. Also does not remember how the magazines got back downstairs, cannot recall how that happened. There’s no recollection at all. That’s quite convenient if you ask me. And the therapist’s response is, “When people suffer childhood trauma, sometimes they tend to forget or they block things out.” Anne: Something not related to their childhood trauma. That’s not logical. Yeah, a childhood trauma, maybe they forget things related to their childhood trauma. But you’re saying somebody with childhood trauma forgets what they said to someone yesterday? What? The two are not even related in the least. Virginia: Exactly. THEY JUST DON’T STOP MANIPULATING Virginia: So it’s been quite a frustrating journey, and I don’t even have words. For me, the worst part of it is that I had confided in my son and told him we were separated and shared with him. My son is very much like me, very inquisitive. He wants to know, And he wants to know to the point where he wants every detail. He’s 31 years old, but I don’t care. He does not need to know significant details. I gave him enough information, and he made the decision that this must be my fault, meaning me. That I must have pushed him too far. And I thought to myself, he’s always been unkind to my son, and it’s been a bone of contention. I’ve always tried to make a bond between the two of them to build a relationship. And he refused to do so. All of a sudden now he said, ” My father got in touch. To say he was taking me out for dinner.” And he’s asking our son to join us. I thought after 20, however many years, that I’ve been asking you to build a relationship with child, now man, all of a sudden now you’re going to go out and have dinner with him. So I did speak up last night and I said to him, I don’t think that’s appropriate. You need to leave him out of this. In my opinion, in my experience, they don’t stop. They’re such good manipulators, they just don’t stop manipulating. And that I think is a hard road for most people to navigate. EXAMPLES OF MISOGYNY – THEY USE THE TRUTH TO LIE Virginia: Epecially when you’ve trusted that person for so very long, or even for the shortest period of time when you love somebody and they betrayed you. The betrayal is beyond comprehension. Anne: Yeah, it is. At least for me, when I realized that everything that came out of his mouth was a lie, a switch flipped for me. And then I couldn’t believe anything he said. Even things that may be true that he said. He even uses the truth to lie. So if he’s telling the truth, that’s fine, but that doesn’t mean he’s being honest. It’s really hard to flip that switch, because there’s gaps. Why would a really good guy get mad over milk? Our brains automatically fill that gap with what we “know”. And what we “know” is that he’s a good guy. So of course, we’ll fill that gap in with, “Oh, he had a bad day,” or “He’s stressed out, or He’s tired ’cause he didn’t get enough sleep. So one thing that I wanna encourage women to do who are listening is just leave that gap blank instead of trying to think of a reason why. The reason why is often how they manipulate us, because we’re naturally going to look for reasons. Virginia: Correct, yeah, I agree. And I’ve seen that over and over again. Even to the point of he does not necessarily get angry. It gets very passive aggressive and will say things and then you follow up and say, Did you just say what I think you said?” “I don’t know what you’re talking about. I didn’t say What kind of a man would I be if I would ever say something like that.” THE SIGNS HAVE BEEN THERE ALL ALONG Virginia: The signs of misogyny have been there all along. Constantly working, managing the house, taking care of the kids, doing all of that and finally I retire. I could not believe what I was finding. Anne: As we wrap up, is there anything that you’d like to share with listeners? Somebody who’s new. Virginia: When I first started listening to your Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. It just hit me. And I really thought, thank God. It gave me courage. I’m actually getting goosebumps, a little emotional. And then I went on and joined into the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions. This is so important for women going through this type of situation. It is real. It is so important for your mental health. If you are in a situation like this. Please listen and join, because it is significant emotional abuse. And the cruelest thing about it is to try to prove it because nine times out of 10, I keep hearing. But he was such a great guy. How could that be? This truly is emotional abuse. Listen, take care and be part of the community. WOMEN MAKE SO MUCH PROGRESS Anne: Thank you so much for taking the time to share your story. If you are interested in coming back on to share with me how you’re doing in six months to a year since he’s still in the home. And you’re still in the middle of this. I would love to hear the rest of the story. Especially when women are getting services here, women make so much progress. I love to have women come back on and hear them sound more confident and more sure of themselves, because they aren’t liviing with misogyny. And you sound sure of yourself now, like you sound amazing now. Virginia: Thank you. Thank you for hearing my story. I appreciate it. Anne: Yeah, thank you so much. THE CONNECTION BETWEEN MISOGYNY AND D-DAY STORIES Anne: Now you’re going to hear a recording that Corrie sent in about an example of misogyny that so many women in our community experience. It’s frequently called D-Day for Discovery Day. It could also stand for Destruction Day. That’s the day women discover something awful about their husband, and it’s seared in everyone’s memory. Women who’ve gone through it often divide their life between what happened before this day and what happened after. This level of betrayal and deception is rooted in a profound sense of entitlement. So if your husband completely disregards your need for emotional safety, and he’s fine with lying to you, he’s basically deciding your pain and trauma and the negative consequences to you are really not that big of deal compared to what he wants. Over the years, I’ve heard hundreds, maybe thousands of D-Day stories. I personally experienced three D-Days, and you can read all about those experiences in my book, which will come out soon. To get on the mailing list for when that comes out, go to any page on my website and scroll all the way down and put your email into our community. If you’re listening, I want you to think about if you’ve had a D-Day or how many D-Day you’ve had and know that you’re not alone. There’s a whole community of women who totally understand what you’re going through. So here’s Corrie’s story. CORRIE’S D-DAY STORY Corrie: I just wanted to share about my D-Day, mostly because today is the three year anniversary. It was a Sunday, I had been at church, and that particular day, they had a special visitor come from the Church’s Addiction Recovery Program, specifically on pornography addiction recovery. They came and just kind of talked to the women and men of my congregation about the Addiction Recovery Program I only was able to hear a little bit of it. Since I was in and out with the baby, but I was just thinking at the time, wow, I’m so grateful I don’t have to deal with that. So we went home after church, and we got the baby and my older daughter down for a nap. And I talked to my husband, and I said something like,” I’m really glad that you don’t have that problem. So we don’t have to deal with it.” And he got this look on his face, just this like, green, almost sick look. And I said, am I right? We don’t have to deal with that, right? I thought it wasn’t even an issue. Before we got married, I asked him about it. But, he hadn’t been truthful. He was living a lie. It was three days before our three year wedding anniversary, which really pissed me off. Because I was looking forward to our anniversary. I can’t even remember right now what we had planned, but it just changed the whole thing, and I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t know what to do. LOOKING BACK ON THE ANNIVERSARY OF D-DAY Corrie: After that, I just froze. I couldn’t trust my husband anymore. That trust was completely shattered, and I didn’t know where to go from there. I am one who has struggled with emotions, dealing with, sharing with, just feeling emotions. I grew up in a home where, especially negative emotions were not okay. We don’t talk about real things, like negative emotion. We don’t talk about depression or anxiety or pornography addiction. I didn’t know how to handle it. So I just froze. It took me a long time, in fact, it wasn’t until this year. When my husband had another relapse, and I was done. I started focusing on me, and that has helped me. It’s been good for me to look back on this, the third anniversary of my D-Day, and see just the crushed person I was back then and how it didn’t destroy my life. Anne: Corrie thank you so much for your bravery and recording your D-Day story. And how misogyny affected your marriage. If you would like to record your D-Day story, you can record it on your phone using voice memo, and then email it to [email protected]. And if I get enough of them, I’ll compile them into one episode and air that in the future. If you’ve just had a D-Day the first one or the second one, no matter what D-Day it is. And you don’t know what to do. The first step is getting educated about this type of abuse and getting the right support. Patriarchy fuels abuse. When I went through it, even though I went for help, the professionals I went to knew nothing about abuse THERAPISTS DIDN’T HELP ME IDENTIFY ABUSE Anne: And so their help actually prolonged my suffering. The couple therapists we went to, the pornography addiction recovery therapists, even the individual therapists, didn’t help me identify that I was a victim of emotional and psychological abuse.and sexual coercion. With a man who justified misogyny. That’s why I started podcasting, so that no other woman had to go through what I went through. So if you’ve had a D-Day and you’re wondering where to turn. This podcast is a great way to learn about the reality of your situation. Also to educate you about abuse, so that when you are ready to date again or you have a teenager you want to protect, you can identify it. And then to talk to women who are going through it. We totally understand what you’re going through. Our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are the safest, professionally facilitated group sessions on the planet. You deserve appropriate support, that doesn’t blame you for any of this. To see the group session schedule, go to /group/. We’d love to see you in a group session
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  I Dislike My Husband Even Though He’s “Better” 11.08.2026 49dk

  If you’ve been thinking, “I dislike my husband,” but you feel guilty about it because he’s supposedly improved himself lately, here’s what you need to know. Why Disliking Your Husband May Signal Something Deeper Here’s the thing: if you dislike your husband, you’re not weird and you certainly haven’t done anything wrong. But I bet you’ve been asking yourself… Why do I dislike my husband when he’s trying? Is this normal resentment? Am I too unforgiving? Or is my intuition picking up on something deeper? In emotionally abusive relationships, there may be times when he apologizes or he may use language he learned in therapy to make it sound like he’s making progress. But real change is measured by consistent patterns over time, not short bursts of “Mr. Nice Guy.” It’s Okay to Dislike Him Even if He’s Getting Therapy If it’s unclear whether he’s emotionally abusive, or not, take this free emotional abuse test. Feeling like “I dislike my husband” may not mean you’ve fallen out of love. It may mean you’re having a reaction to a person who no longer feels emotionally safe to be around. This is exactly what we walk through in the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, how to discern the difference between if your husband can really change into someone you could enjoy being around and how to evaluate emotional safety without pressure to stay or leave. Whether victims stay married, separate from, or divorce a man they dislike, boundaries are absolutely essential in protecting women and their children from further harm. BTR.ORG Supports Victims Of Emotionally Abusive Husbands For women who choose to stay married wondering “can my husband change into someone I like?” We believe that as women educate themselves about trauma and abuse, they are better equipped to make informed decisions and become empowered to begin their journeys to healing. Tune in to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast to learn more about the real, valid reasons you probably have to dislike your husband. Transcript: I Dislike My Husband Anne: Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. A member of our community, Cece is here to share her story about the emotional whiplash so many women experience after betrayal, when apologies and effort create hope, but something still feels off. How do you know if he’s truly changing? If you’re sitting with that quiet tension, thinking, “I dislike my husband, but don’t want to feel this way.” So what am I supposed to do now?” You’re not alone. So Cece, you’ve experienced this whiplash, and you’re gonna talk about your story today. Welcome. Cece: Hi Anne, thanks for having me on. Anne: I’m so grateful for women who share their stories. For many listeners who quietly wonder, “I dislike my husband… but he says he’s changing,” conversations like this matter. I’m honored to talk with you about how to tell whether an emotionally abusive husband can truly change. So Cece, you’re divorced now, but let’s start at the beginning—when you first met your husband. How did you feel about him at that time? Cece: So I went to a Christian college, and there was a lot of the purity culture stuff going on there. I had grown up with an alcoholic dad and was kind of a scapegoat in my family of origin. So my self-esteem was at the bottom of the barrel, unfortunately. But he and I were friends, and we got to be friends the first week of my sophomore year in college. He was a freshman. He was actually studying to become a youth pastor. So when I met him, I thought, oh, he’s this nice Christian guy. He had a girlfriend at the time, and I was not interested in him like that. We really did hit it off as friends. Early “Green Flags” That Later Made Me Question Everything Cece: And I didn’t see any red flags at that point in his character. Interestingly enough, he was dating a girl in my hall. It was actually an abusive relationship where she was abusing him. Which made me think he could never be that way towards someone else. Anne: Really quick, what made you think she was abusing him as you’re observing this? Cece: I would see the way she would talk to him, and she actually hit him a couple of times. So it was very serious. And other people were witnesses to those things even when I wasn’t, so… Anne: The reason why I ask that is that we don’t know what he was doing to her. Cece: Right. Anne: A lot of times when you see a woman doing that. It could be that she’s resisting abuse, and you don’t know what happened before that. Cece: That is possible, but just from what I observed, it seemed like he was just a people pleaser. And he was always just bowing down to her every whim. That’s what is looked like from the outside. Once they broke up, he actually pursued me. And I just was caught off guard at that point. And thought, oh, he’s one of my best friends, let me just think about this. But he waited a long time for me, respectful of all my boundaries. Especially the physical boundaries were really important to me. Because I knew I wanted to wait, even for engagement. Because I had some bad experiences in the past in High School. where guys pushed boundaries. And he didn’t do that. So I thought, oh, that’s a green flag. I Dislike My Husband, Does That Mean He’s Emotionally Abusive or That I’m Burnt Out? Cece: I guess a couple of the red flags I saw before we were married were emotional immaturity. Which I didn’t know at the time. I think just because I couldn’t even spot the red flags having grown up in an abusive home. I thought, oh, this is how guys are. And at one point he called me out of the blue and was like, “Hey, I don’t have any food. I need you to take me to the store.” I said, “Oh, well I have something going on today or I have to study or something.” And he would not take no for an answer. I said, “Can’t you get someone else to take you? Can’t you call another friend?” “Oh no, you have to take me or else.” He just really put so much guilt on me. And said it was a food emergency. Why It’s Okay To Dislike Your Husband Anne: It’s a food… I’m sorry. That’s funny. It’s a food emergency. Before marriage, you didn’t know he would be abusive. Plus everyone says will couples counseling work. CeCe: right. And nobody could take him but me. So I just went ahead and did it, but I felt really just. I think it was love bombing, but honestly, it didn’t seem like he was trying to manipulate at that point. It seemed like he was immature, I guess. And so, you know, he would mirror me a lot too. I was into poetry, and I think he just took all my interests in. You know, and thought, oh wow, she’s such a cool girl. I want to be interested in everything she is. And it made me think, we’re into the same things, like, I think we’re gonna be the perfect match. For many women, “I dislike my husband” starts much later, after the mirroring fades and the control begins. Experiencing Love Bombing & Mirroring Anne: Mirroring is the worst. I did not realize it back when I was dating before I got married. So I would be like an open book, and men would be like, me too, me too. Now I like to sit back. Well, not that I date, I do not date. So don’t get that impression. But when I meet people, I like to sit back and ask them what they think first. Because I know I’m not going to mirror them. I’m going to be like, cool. I’m glad you like that. I don’t like it, but congratulations. I’m not going to be like, me too, if I hate it. Cece: Yes, for sure. And he did tell me, actually, before marriage, that he had an online explicit material problem. Now, I did not know what that meant. I thought, well, you know, guys struggle with lust. That’s what I’d been led to believe. So, it’s a struggle for him, but I think he can overcome it. So I was very naive at that point. Anne: So you married at some point. When do things start to go south? Like where you recognize, oh, something feels off. Worrying If your emotionally abusive husband can change or not? Cece: We married right after graduation. It was about a month after we were sitting on the couch, and housework was already an issue. It was like he was, he would leave all these messes just for me to clean up. He treated me like a maid and stuff. I thought, well, I guess this is just a sacrifice I have to make being married. But I was frustrated. When Things Changed After Our Wedding, I realized “I Dislike My Husband” Cece: And so we’re sitting on the couch, and he spills this bag of trail mix on the couch. I was at my breaking point that day, just with all his messes. And I was like, well, I guess I’ll get the Dustbuster and clean this up. And he hit me with a flip flop. Isn’t that crazy? He took his flip flop and hit my leg and made this red welt on it. Anne: Not like, gently. Cece: No, I mean, it was like he wanted to punish me. And immediately, I just said, we need to go to our pastor about this. We have to tell somebody, I am not going to put up with this, because I knew it was only going to get worse. That was a wake up call. So we went to our pastor, and he said, “You need to go to anger management.” And he set him up with an anger management class. And then he said, “You need to have a plan for where you’re going to go if he continues to do this. You know, you need to figure out a neighbor or somebody you can stay with immediately.” Anne: You’re resisting abuse. Immediately, you’re going for help. You’re like, this is not right. So you’re doing your job, which is resisting abuse. So the person you go to for help says, “Put yourself in the position where this could happen again and wait and see if he will change. And have a plan, if it does.” Rather than, don’t put yourself in this position again, oh. Cece: Definitely, my husband went to the class, and he was actually able to largely stop the physical abuse. There were a few more rage incidents. Anger Management Looked Like Change—But It Wasn’t Real Change Where he would pull back the shower curtain if I was in the shower and yell at me, or he would just restrain me, things like that. And I would fight back sometimes, but I quickly realized, this is dangerous. I’m not gonna fight back. Then, after learning some techniques, I guess he stopped that form of abuse. And I think I was confused, because I thought, well, the abuse has stopped, we’re good. And he’s becoming a new man and making changes. Soon after, I got pregnant with my first child that November. So we married in June, and then in November, I got pregnant. At that point, I was teaching, I was working full time, and I was so tired. You know how in your first trimester, it’s just you’re wiped out. And so, he was still being a slob, and he was actually in school, going through a different program at this point. And just working part time. So he was home most of the day. He wouldn’t do any laundry. He wouldn’t do any cleaning. I was like holding down the fort basically with all the housework and working full time. Plus dealing with pregnancy and exhaustion. I remember I was folding a load of laundry one day, just crying because I thought I had no help at this point. And I just felt so alone and lost. But I also had a D-Day at that point, and I can’t remember what exactly it was, but I think I did find online explicit material again. At this point I’m starting to think my husband won’t be able to change his harmful behaviors. Discovery Days, “Recovery Talk,” and Why I Dislike My Husband Anne: Well, I’m going to pause you, right? If someone listens to this podcast for the first time, I just want to define D-Day quickly. D-Day stands for Discovery Day. But clearly it’s also a double meaning, because it’s the day your world sort of falls apart. So you’ve got a D-Day in that you’re discovering explicit material. Cece: So, some people have, like, one major D-Day. I had dozens, probably. And I think that was the death by a thousand cuts. At that point, I had actually heard from one of my friends. Her husband was in SA which is a program for men with addictions, and she was in S-Anon, which was the complimentary program for wives. She told me how much it helped both of them. She thought her emotionally abusive husband had changed. And I thought, okay, maybe there’s hope here. I mean, he was just totally checked out. It seemed like being selfish, not caring what I had to say. And I said, “You need to go to S. A. and you need a sponsor.” And he did it, so I thought, okay, things are going in the right direction. But although he would pay lip service to it a lot, telling me how much he had learned and how much it helped him, I did not see any changes in his actions. So it was discouraging, especially just seeing how he was putting basically zero effort. Anne: Um, so this whole time you’re resisting the abuse, you’re trying to get help, you’re trying to figure it out. In your efforts to resist abuse, did you reach out for help with clergy or with couple therapy? Anything like that? I Dislike My Husband: Wondering What He’s Really Doing When I’m Not Around Cece: Yeah, I was trying to get help from the ladies in S-Anon, but it didn’t resonate with me. There was one incident that stuck out to me that year. I came home unexpectedly from work. And I walked in on him and I was like, what the heck is going on? He says, “No, I swear I’m not talking to someone. I just, I’m being dumb, this was just stupid. I was just trying to figure out what size I am. And in that moment, I remember thinking, Who did I even marry? Who is this man? I drove back to school in tears and was completely checked out the rest of the day. That was a turning point. I started realizing I didn’t actually know who my husband was when I wasn’t around. That’s when the starting realizing, I don’t like my husband. And it kind of freaked me out. Anne: Being obsessed with your penis size is definitely a sign of addiction. So, of course, you didn’t know that at the time, but like, how alarming is that? He obviously wasn’t changing his abusive behaviors. CeCe: It definitely was. Like many other incidents, I just thought I had to make this work somehow, even though it became more and more traumatic. I didn’t even know who he was or what he was doing when I was not around. Anne: And knowing that was how you were resisting, you’re resisting any way that you know how. But you don’t know how to define it. Cece: Yeah, that’s true. I Dislike My Husband: Starting Marriage Counseling With False Hope Anne: Realize that you were trying to figure it out the entire time, and then you run into these roadblocks all the time. So when people ask like, why do I dislike my husband, why didn’t you just get out? Be like, I was trying to get help, but I went to a therapist, and the therapist told me to communicate better. So, It’s so hard. What do you think is going on at this time? In your efforts to make yourself safe? And wondering if your husband will change? What are you telling yourself? Cece: I think at that point, I was telling myself he’s got a serious problem. He needs somebody to get through to him, and I hope it’s his sponsor or counselor at that point. Because we started going to individual and marriage counseling. With our marriage counselor, it seemed like she would have been helpful. But she never got to the root of the problem. I don’t blame her, because I don’t think she was informed about what was going on. There was one session that I just remember her talking about trust and how important that is. I was like, we need to go for more of this because she had been talking about fondness and admiration. It was like this kind of triangle and I can’t remember who came up with that, but it was like a couple’s triangle where you were getting closer together and closer to God and you had to go up the triangle. But I was thinking we’re not even at the bottom right now because of how he’s actively destroying our marriage. Counseling Didn’t Help My Husband Change Cece: Yeah, I definitely did not feel helped by that. With my individual counselor, I think it was helpful to start unraveling my family of origin stuff. Cause I thought I would have saved my marriage at all costs. I don’t want my trauma to be a factor in this. I don’t want to get in the way of anything we’re doing together. My marriage was my number one priority the whole time. And so I thought I needed to heal from my past. Anne: We have found that most marriage therapists don’t get to the heart of the problem. And then even if they do, let’s pretend like the therapist. Is like, okay, he’s abusive. The solution is also not going to work, because they say, okay, why are you abusive? And they’ll give reasons. Oh, my childhood trauma. Instead of saying no, there are people who experienced childhood trauma and they’re not abusive. So no, that’s not why you’re abusive. Oh, this happened. No, that’s not the reason. You chose this. So therapy isn’t good for abusers. Their choices over time to have created this type of character and to give them validation. Like, now it makes sense that you’re abusive because of your childhood trauma. But now let’s not be abusive anymore. That’s not what they need. They just dig themselves deeper and deeper. Instead of realizing, I made choices over time based on entitlement. I have a thinking problem that is not due to anything that happened to me. I am just a misogynistic, exploitative abuser, and I need to change. Even if you did get to the root of the problem, they’re abusive. I Dislike My Husband: Why Emotional Safety Must Come Before Deciding If He’ll Change Anne: How would you help him with that? By validating his childhood trauma because you had childhood trauma. Were you abusive? No, did you lie? No, so the whole therapy thing for an abuser does not make sense. Cece: Right, and if somebody had told me that I was living with abuse, it would have made so much sense to me. Like I could have figured things out so much faster. I remember during our marriage counseling, I told the counselor this. I said, “I’m not suicidal, but I honestly wish one of us would die so that I could get out of this misery.” Thinking, I dislike my husband, and then immediately feeling guilty for even having that thought. Good wives don’t feel that way. So I assumed I must be the problem. Anne: Yeah, that’s very common. What did the counselor say? Cece: She just empathized with me and said, “Oh yeah, this is really serious.” https://youtu.be/oeMVZ5334VE Anne: Did she say, you are abused? Cece: Never, when my oldest was one, I got pretty sick. Because my immune system was not good at that point, just with all the stress. During that illness, I remember having this sudden clarity, like this is not of God, what’s going on. And I believe He spoke to me in that moment, when I felt so physically terrible, somehow I could hear the Holy Spirit better. And, He was like, This is not what I want for your life. This is not a marriage that glorifies me, that is what I believe the Holy Spirit told me. I just remember thinking, okay, I need to come up with a plan, and not try to get him to change. More D-Days & Emotional Withdrawal, Awakening & Planning Cece: I was so ashamed. I didn’t want to return to my family of origin. I didn’t want to rely on them for any help. And I was also thinking, there are so many people who supported our marriage. What would they think if I separated from him? So I just felt stuck. We eventually got back to the status quo, and I got pregnant with baby number two. I did have more D-days after that. There was one specifically at a friend’s house. We were having a Superbowl party there, and I just grabbed his phone to look something up. It was just, I wasn’t even thinking. And I saw that he had searched this girl’s name. In the search bar, and I just snapped at him. I said, What the heck is this? And pulled him outside. I was so mad, and he just had this way of placating me, I think, whenever I would find stuff. So he just groveled, basically. He was like, I’m so sorry. I’m struggling right now. It made me feel empathetic towards him, because I thought, well, he just has this problem. This kept me stuck in a pattern of waiting for him to change. So I started to feel myself pulling away emotionally and I’m like “I dislike my husband,” of course. Anne: You were resisting. Cece: Yeah. Anne: That I just have this problem, and I can’t stop the eliciting of empathy and almost pity. Abusers don’t mind it when people pity them. Like I hate it. If people pity me, I’m like, oh, I’m fine. Leave me alone. It’s not something that I enjoy. It feels bad to me, but they’re like, Oh, good. And I think it’s because they use it to manipulate people, it’s gross. Changing Churches & Hoping Things Will Improve Cece: For sure, so I wasn’t sure how much longer this could last at that point. I knew I’d always wanted a bunch of kids and to live the stay at home mom life. But I dislike my husband and I started to realize that maybe our marriage was not going to last. I thought it, it’s got an expiration date at some point. Especially, I can’t keep having kids with him when he’s doing this, but I wanted more at the same time. Probably the biggest thing that happened that year was that we changed churches. We just didn’t agree with some of the stuff they were doing at our church. So we wanted to change churches. And we ended up at a super conservative Baptist church. It felt safe there. I had stopped going to my S-Anon meetings, and I had started to look into more traditional marriage materials. Not anything super fundamentalist, but more complementarian ideas. I thought, wow, maybe I can at least improve my marriage. Even if your emotionally abusive husband will change or not, I can’t get him to change. At least maybe I can have a halfway decent life if I follow these rules. Waiting For Change When I Dislike My Husband Anne: So at the time you’re thinking maybe complementarianism is the answer. Cece: Yes, all the women there were stay at home homeschooling moms, like I was, so I thought I fit in here. I got into the trad wife kind of movement. And started following all those social media accounts, like baking bread and gardening. I think looking back, that was a flight response where I was trying to escape the situation almost. Anne: You’re still resisting it because you’re thinking, if I do this, it will stop it, which is a form of resistance. Cece: Yeah, if I dislike my husband, maybe I can survive if I live my life largely separate from him. I would be working 13-14 hour days at home doing stuff. Because I loved hosting holidays, decorating the house. And making it super shiny and clean, just because I was trying to keep myself occupied. And keep myself fulfilled doing stuff. Anne: You’re trying to thrive in the sphere that you think you have power over. So if you can’t be the best stockbroker, because you’re not a stockbroker, you’re like, I’m going to be the best host. I’m going to be the best homeschooling mom. You’re trying to thrive in whatever sphere you can. Your waiting to see if your emotionally abusive husband will change, you want to give him a chance. And they’re also promising things. They’re saying, hey, if you treat a man this way, he’ll treat you well. If you have dinner on the table, if the house is clean, if you give him intamacy, that’s what men want. And so this is the answer to your problems. They’re also suggesting this is a way out. I Dislike My Husband: How Boundaries Protect Women and Children From Emotional Abuse Cece: Yes, this was when I started setting serious boundaries around intimacy. I was like, if I’m just gonna live here and be a house slave. I’m not a wife anymore. It seemed gross when I didn’t want to do it. That was a whole other thing. It was like he would would start a fight. Then I would be so confused, because I wouldn’t be in the mood. And then he’d be like, you’re never in the mood. And I’m like, you just started a fight with me! It was like he was covertly withholding from me. And that was disappointing to me, honestly. Anne: Also, making it your fault that he didn’t want to with you, because he was busy using and masturbating, and whatever else he was doing. He doesn’t seem like he truly cares about making a change. It’s impossible to figure out how to live with a husband you don’t trust. Cece: Yes, and I figured that out after I got out. I could probably count on my fingers the number of times we did. But I got pregnant one of those times. Not on purpose. I was excited to have a boy and It was a time of hope in my life. It seemed like he started to make changes at that point too. Because I read a book that was helpful for breaking spiritual strongholds, and it seemed to help me in my life. I Dislike My Husband: Another D-Day and the Numbness That Followed Cece: He read it, and he seemed to want to change after that. He was much more intentional with me, actually wanting to spend time with me. Instead of doing his own thing all the time. Then when I was 25 weeks pregnant, I had another D-day, and I saw he was looking up a girl on Instagram, and I thought. What is going on? I mean, I thought we were good now. Apparently not. So after that, I was just existing and numb. And thought, he is just gonna do this no matter what. So it was this new level of having to accept that I dislike my husband and it was super depressing. So then it was Christmas, and I was doing my housewife thing. We had family over, I was trying to clean the house. He was just sitting on his butt doing nothing. I could tell he was a new level of checked out. I didn’t know why, but my intuition told me something. He wouldn’t come to bed with me ever, he would stay up until 3AM. And just this thought creeped into my mind, could he be cheating in real life? But then the other part of me was like, he would never do that. I was confused. I got him some lingerie for Christmas, thinking maybe I can rekindle our romance. So I put it on, and he did not even look at me. He was just bored. And I was thinking, if he’s not attracted to me at all, we’ve got serious issues. That was the turning point. Discovering BTR & Eye-Opening Stories Cece: I did start listening to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast at that point, and it was honestly a little too much for me at first. I just had to take a long time to digest everything. So that was a good resource for me. And I started gradually listening to it more. I had been starting to follow on Facebook for a month or so, because I was at the end of my rope. It was just eye-opening to read all the stories there, and I thought, oh, this is my story. And just the fact that these guys did not give up explicit material for any extended period. They would keep finding stuff over and over, even when they thought their husbands were in good recovery. Anne: Can you talk about why it was a little too much for just a second? Was it too painful to hear other people’s stories, or you just didn’t feel hope? Or that seemed like for so many women that their husbands didn’t change. Cece: I thought you were a little too feminist for me. I don’t think that now, but I did think that before. I thought, well, you know, not necessarily the guests, but like, Anne is so honest. It’s a compliment, but I just thought you were so hard hitting. With the fact that this is abuse, and these men will do what they’re going to do. I’m like, well, yeah, I dislike my husband, but some of them might want to change. Anne: So at the time we were like, Anne is too feminist. She’s kind of too extreme in her, this is abuse stance-ish. Cece: Right. Anne: That is true. Many people think that about me, and I’m like, yeah, it’s true. Confronting My Husband, From Trad Wife To BTR Cece: Yeah, just being a trad wife and starting to listen to your content was, I mean, it was, it was so good. It was what I needed. Anne: Going from trad wife to BTR.ORG was like whiplash, yeah. Cece: Right, I think I felt like a chandelier had just fallen from the ceiling on top of me when I thought about my marriage. This has crashed down, and I don’t even know what to do. So, I sat my husband down and gave him the choice between me or explicit material, and I was like, this is it. This has gone on long enough, and I was totally serious. I was crying and I said, “This is a crap sandwich either way.” That’s what I told him. And I said, “I can’t believe I brought three babies into the world with you if I have to just leave.” And I said, “So you’ve got to quit.” He actually did a disclosure. I don’t know if it was a full disclosure, because we didn’t do a polygraph or anything. And I know polygraphs aren’t the be all end all either. Anne: This is an addiction therapist? Cece: Well, eventually we went to one of those. But this was before we had our appointment with them. So he just wanted to do it. He said, “I have to tell you everything.” I got to get it off my chest. Anne: This is a non-therapeutic one, he’s just, like, gonna tell you. Maybe, if he doesn’t want to change, at least he’s being honest. Disclosure & Accountability Cece: I thought, okay, let’s just sit down after the kids went to bed. I know I needed to know everything. And found out he was playing explicit video games on the TV when the kids could have walked in any minute. I was like, wow, I need to get myself and my kids out of this situation if he continues to do this. This is crazy. So I was nauseated and had to stop partway through, but I wanted to know everything. We came back after that, and I found out a lot of stuff. So I wrote up this contract. It wasn’t official or anything, but it just said, I promise to like fully provide if things don’t work out. And continue to pay for everything they need, and let her continue to homeschool and support her. So he signed the contract, and we also put accountability software on his devices, like, so I could see everything he was doing. Anne: Part of me thinks, this might be why you didn’t like listening to me in the podcast in the beginning, but here we go. Part of me thinks you said, okay, explicit material or me. He was like, I’m going to tell her everything. And then she’s going to kick me out. And when you didn’t do that, he was like, shoot, now I got to lie to her again. Cece: That’s possible. Anne: Because why would he tell you at that point, and not at a different point? Why does he just volunteer it? CeCe: I don’t know. Anne: That’s my thought that he thought, “I’m going to tell her everything. She’ll be so disgusted. She’ll be like, you’re obviously choosing explicit material. I’m done.” He’s trying to tell me that he’s not going to change. I Dislike My Husband: I Was Done With Betrayal, But He Relapsed Again Anne: But instead, your husband won’t stop lying, because for some reason, they cannot just be like, you know what? I want to use. Cool, let’s get divorced. Like I’ve never seen an abuser do that. If you’re listening and thinking, I’m going to confront him and tell him it’s either explicit material or me. He will always choose you, because he’s going to look terrible if he chooses explicit material. Y So he’s never going to do that. It’s a good way to try to resist abuse, but abusers don’t work like that. They’re always going to lie because abusers always have to manage their image. Cece: That is true. I will say this is the first time I think there was any force behind my boundaries. Because I was kind of bluffing the other times. I didn’t have it in me to leave, but the point was, I was done. I was like an animal caught in the trap, wanting to chew off its own leg. So he seemed to change for five months. And it seemed like he was actually repenting and like wanting to have a relationship with me. Anne: Maybe if your emotionally abusive husband will change, you could stay. Cece: It went from him having no interest in me to wanting to be close, but it was like a pendulum swing like, Oh no, please don’t go. I had just been through the ringer and couldn’t handle any more betrayal. But five months later, he relapsed. He did a drip disclosure. He told me part of the truth and then more came out. And that was doubly traumatic. In that moment, the thought returned stronger than ever: I dislike my husband—not because I’m unforgiving, but because I’m exhausted from cycles that never truly end. Taking A Two Week Break At Mom’s Cece: I zoned out, staring in his face when he told me this. I could barely handle it. Basically, you shouldn’t be my accountability partner, you’re my wife, and need to get back in your place. I thought, wow, it was 180 from what he said before. He said, I’ve not taken my role as a husband seriously, and I need to humble myself. Anne: It sounded as if he could change. Cece: Then it was like, get back in your place, woman. Right after that, it was so crazy. I was like, I dislike my husband. We’re not doing this. I kicked him out of our room and told him he needed to sleep in the guest room. He got in bed with me and would not get out. I was like, get out. And I knew it would create a toxic situation for our kids if we were sitting there yelling. I thought, I have to get out of here. So I went to my mom’s for two weeks. She is the one family member I am close with. I reached out to his accountability people. Just like, my husband is not okay. I need you to check up on him. He has a brother, he and his wife were on my side this whole time. Which was a blessing, and I still talk with them. His brother called and said, “You have to confess to your wife what you did.” He called me on FaceTime and told me he was doing the video games again. I thought there is something more. I mean, his eyes just went black. It was like a demonic kind of thing, which I couldn’t have explained until experiencing it. It was wild, it seemed like his soul was gone at that point. Knowing My Emotionally Abusive Husband Won’t Change: Kicking Him Out Cece: I had these panic attacks at different times. It was the weirdest thing, it was almost like I dislike my husband. He came to visit the kids, and it was awful. I felt this strong urge that I needed to get away from him. I told him he needed to move out before I came back to town. There was verbal abuse in front of the kids, and I knew he couldn’t be in the house. My oldest, she drew a picture of us shouting at each other, and it said, “Mommy and Daddy are not getting along.” That broke my heart. I thought we needed to be apart, so he moved out. When I returned to town, we set an appointment with an addiction therapist he went to an individual counselor. When I went to his counselor with him, I was so desperate to be believed. I was talking fast, please believe me. This is happening, and he’s like, why are you acting like this? Looking back, he should have known that this was an abuse situation. It was obvious I panicked trying to tell the story. And I said, “I just want someone to believe me.” Anne: If your emotionally abusive husband could change, he wasn’t Cece: It was bad. I was finding stuff. I found videos he watched, different social media accounts. So now he’s got an accountability partner from the church, which was the assistant pastor. Which was a total joke, because I thought okay, nobody does better research than a betrayed wife. This is crazy pathetic. He thinks he can help him. And I have my own suspicions about the assistant pastor and what he’s into. He thought your husband could change. The Church’s Role Turns To Blame Cece: But I found all this stuff, and the people from church wanted to sit down with me. The pastor and assistant pastor and their wives were there. And the pastor says, “I think your husband is doing well.” It seems like he’s taking things seriously. And I said, “You want me to show you his accounts?” I said, “This accountability partner stuff is a joke. The only person who knows what he’s up to is me. And he’s up to no good.” I wanted him to go to rehab. That was my line in the sand. I said, “I will not consider getting back together unless he goes to rehab.” At first they were on my side. They’re like, yeah, maybe he needs rehab. But then the assistant pastor turned it back around on me towards the end of the meeting. Asking me, why do you feel the need to be so controlling? Saying, if your emotionally abusive husband will change, it’s up to you. It was awful. I knew I needed to stop going to that church. I just cut off communication with them. Thanks to what I’ve learned on this podcast largely. Because I thought, oh, this is going the same way as everybody else’s churches. So I’m grateful for what I had learned at that point. Anne: What are you thinking about Betrayal Trauma? Cece: I was thinking I am all ears at this point. Anne: If you’re like, should I get services at Betrayal Trauma Recovery? The betrayal trauma support group near me was incredible. They take a woman where she is. They don’t push women or their agenda. They’re like, I’m here to help you get to safety, and figure out if your emotionally abusive husband will change. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Helps Women Get To Safety Anne: How do you want to do that? Everything you’ve done in the past is resisting abuse. How do you want to move forward? I’ll talk to victims in real life. They’ll come to my house because they’re part of my community. At church or something. So me in real life. I’m looking at this person in the eyes. And usually they don’t love it. They’re like, this seems too extreme. But almost a hundred percent of the time they return six months to a year later. And they’re like, if I had done that, I would be in such a better position now. I always look at them with empathy, give them a hug, and say, “I am you.” I did that exact same thing. And I was like, oh no, I’m going to do the addiction recovery thing for a while. I’m going to go to couple therapy. It’s almost like you have to try it for yourself to realize that it’s not going to work. When I first started BTR.ORG, I thought, Oh, I can cut that off of the pass. I can be like, don’t do it. That is what I do. But I’ve come to realize that because it’s your marriage, because you want to resist through saving your marriage. And because all of us care that we almost just need to know for ourselves. So that stage of trying is an important stage that most victims will go through. And it’s not our fault, because the manipulation is so intense from everywhere. From the abuser, clergy and therapists, it’s hard to be like, okay, I’m going to go against clergy, therapists, and my family. That’s a really hard place to be. Can you talk about that for a little bit? Letting Go of Hoping He Would Change and Finding Safe Support When I DisLike My Husband Cece: It was hard to feel like my entire church had turned against me. I was just the outcast. My pastor’s wife was part of our homeschool co-op. I just felt like she was looking down her nose at me every time I was there with my kids. By that point, I had already been quietly wrestling with the thought, I dislike my husband — and I felt ashamed of it. They are not trauma informed or giving me any kind of good advice. They told me that I needed to suffer well and I was just done at that point. I ended up going to my old church, and they were supportive. Because one of my friends who had walked through the same thing told me they were helpful and understanding. Everybody was very kind whenever I went and welcomed me back. I also quickly found the safe people. It was hard at first, because I didn’t know who would be understanding and who wouldn’t. So I felt like I had to over explain myself to everybody at first. But then, my intuition got stronger over time. I could tell the friends I know who are in healthy marriages. They were shocked when I told them what was going on. The friends I could tell were in unhealthy marriages, and just staying there. They were the ones who gave me the advice, “You need to keep trying.” I couldn’t take any more of that. My husband’s parents actually offered us a marriage intensive to send us there and pay four or five thousand dollars for it. I said if you’re gonna pay that money, you need to put that money towards his rehab. Because that’s actually going to save our marriage. My Husband Moves Back In Saying, “I Don’t Trust Him” Cece: Oh, no, you need a marriage intensive. I was like, okay, whatever, and he didn’t want to go to rehab. So he moved back after a month of being out. He said you’re not believing me. You’re not trusting me. So I’m going to move back in. Anne: What? What? Blaming you if your husband will change or not. Cece: Yeah, I mean, isn’t that crazy? You don’t trust me, cause I was finding stuff, still. Anne: How could you not trust me, because you’ve done it in the past? Like what? Like they don’t make sense. Sorry, it’s crazy. Like if your emotionally abusive husband will change or not, it depends on you. Cece: Yeah, he moved back in, and I moved to the guest room. We basically had a parenting schedule. Like where he would parent at this time, and I would parent at that time. And I’d always go in my room and lock the door if he was home. So, in the fall, he had a few moments of clarity where he was like, Oh gosh, I’m about to lose my family. But then he would be back to where he was before the next day. I was, my panic attacks and stuff were starting to even out at that point. I was like, I’m just going to observe and see what’s going on. At one point, I said, “I just want to sit down with you and pray for you. I don’t know why, I just think God is leading me to do this.” And looking back, God was trying to open my eyes at that point, even more. So I prayed for him and just cried. Trying To Save Our Family & Mini Stroke Cece: I was like, God, I love this man. Please change him, help him see what he needs to do and save our family. And he said, “You want to go out to dinner?” I said, “Sure.” So we went to dinner, and I was trying so hard. It was like there was this glass wall between us. I pounded on the glass to wake him up, to understand my view. But he would not hear any of it. He was in the complimentarian BS, like, “You’re my wife, you need to be submissive.” I could tell he was obviously taking a lot of it from what he heard from the church. That night I had a TIA stroke. It’s like a mini stroke. It doesn’t usually impact you long term, but it is a warning sign that you might have a stroke in the future. My head felt like it was gonna burst, it was like I couldn’t even formulate any thoughts. It was the weirdest feeling. I just felt like my brain was shutting down, and afterwards it was scary. After that night, I knew I had to set a permanent boundary that I would not discuss any type of relationship stuff with him. Because I thought it was going to be the real thing next time. I moved to a camp. We stayed there for three weeks, and it was fun. It was like a camping trip. That was the first time my kids ever spent a night away from me. And that was really hard. I was still nursing my 18 month old. And so my boobs were leaking. I cried so much, but after that, it got easier. Contesting the Divorce & Legal Battles Cece: And I started using the time to refresh myself, listening to helpful resources to combat the negative impact of thinking I dislike my husband, and meditating on scripture. One of the most helpful scriptures to me was Malachi 2. Just talking about how much God hates when men are unfaithful to their wives. It was so encouraging to me. In those days, I would just open the Bible, and God would always lead me to the right passage. That was one of the main ways I could regulate my nervous system. And then I interviewed two lawyers. I was so broken over having to do that. Because in Tennessee, we don’t have legal separation. You either stay together or file for divorce. Without filing, I could not get him to move out of the house. I also couldn’t get child support or anything set up, so I knew I needed to file. But the night before I went to the first lawyer’s office, my son knocked our marriage license off the wall and the frame broke. I was like, wow. And God led me to this passage from Psalm 81, which was referring to when he delivered his people from Egypt. It was talking about how he set their hands free from the basket and delivered them. And that was amazing to me, thinking, wow, okay. I have heard God and I’m peaceful about it. So I went to the law office, and eventually he got served. He said he wanted to contest the divorce, even though we didn’t have any assets to divide. So he just made me waste a bunch of money on the lawyer fees for a contested divorce, even though we didn’t go to court at all. Custody Threats & Emotional Manipulation Cece: It was interesting, he was almost gleeful when we talked about the stuff that we were going to divide up. And he was like, Oh yeah, we’ll do that. It was weird. It was like, he was happy. And I thought I had made the right decision. He just wanted me to do the dirty work, which I was devastated to have to do. Anne: My ex was like that too. He was so happy to get divorced, or at least he acted like it. It was so weird. He was showing now that he never wanted to change. Cece: Weird, one time I was getting the kids ready for co-op, and out of nowhere, he came into the room. He said, “I’m going for 50/50 custody.” And he knew that was something that would devastate me, because I’d always been a stay at home mom. And I’d always done all the stuff for the kids. And I thought, what are they going to do spending half their time with him? That would totally disrupt their lives. He caught me so off guard. I freaked out, I said, “Are you kidding me?” It was in front of the kids. I’m ashamed to say I yelled in front of them. But said, “You’re going to be calm. You’re not going to show your triggers.” My ex is big on homeschooling. I said, we won’t be able to homeschool because you work a nine to five, so we’ll have to put them in public school and daycare. This is expensive, because we would have two that need to be in daycare. And you’re going to pay a lot more for that than if I just take them to work with me or just work around their schedules. Birthday Drama With A Public Confrontation Cece: He always spiritualizes everything. I said, God’s gonna be good and faithful to us no matter what. So you know, I’m not worried either way. Anne: We teach how to tell if your husband will change in my workshop. Cece: Totally, then I just poured out my heart to my safe people when I could get away from him. We worked out the parenting schedule. We have 70/30 now. But one thing that I remember from that month he moved out is my middle child, her birthday party was that month. We already had it planned and everything, and we were both going to be there. I was thinking, Oh, how’s this going to go? Especially since infidelity is abusive. He started drama at the birthday party. Saying I was planning to take the kids out of state, because I was planning to visit my mom at one point. That was the first time he ever found out about it. And he freaked out in front of everybody. And I said, “I’m not doing this again. We’re not having birthday parties together if you’re going to continue this.” I used to cry when he guilted me and said I was breaking up our family. I used to internalize it. But this time something shifted. I realized that the reason I was thinking, I dislike my husband, wasn’t because I had become unloving—it was because I was tired of being blamed for his choices. Finding Peace By Setting Firm Boundaries When I Dislike My Husband Cece: We got to Christmas. We split time with the kids. Things were much more peaceful once I started having firm boundaries with him. And I eventually moved out. He bought me out of the house, because unfortunately I had no employment history or anything. My mom helped me get my rental place. Which I don’t know what I would have done if she hadn’t helped me. But God provided the perfect place for us. I was so sad to leave my house and all the work I put into it. But now we live in a three bedroom house on two acres. Because I posted on Facebook and someone responded, and we found the perfect place. I can just send my kids outside. It’s great. I’ve just been able to build a business. God has just provided every step of the way. Because it’s very public now. It’s just out there that I dislike my husband. I’m divorced because my husband was a addict. I’ve had other moms contact me from my different social circles, even those who are still in their marriages just suffering. Which I feel terrible about. And I’m going through the same thing. You’re the only person I’ve told about this. It’s so common, it’s everywhere. God has confirmed to me that I made the right decision. I’ve learned to sit with grief, journal about it, and talk to my safe people. Anne: Does it help knowing that the good parts weren’t actually good? Do you know what I mean? That they were grooming and part of the abuse? Does that help? How do you feel about that? It’s so hard to tell if your emotionally abusive husband will change, when he’s groomed you for so long to keep believing he will. Bravery & Strength: Thriving After Abuse Cece: You’re right. At the same time, I view myself as alone in those memories. Like, I had a good experience, but I was alone. So even saying my wedding vows, that was me being my honest self. But he was not being honest. His heart was not sincere in it. Actually, he remarried just a few weeks ago. I feel bad for his next victim. He definitely picked someone vulnerable and naive. I tried to be friendly with her, just in case she ever needs to reach out. Anne: If you could go back in time, what would you tell yourself? Cece: I thought about that question. And I honestly don’t know if there’s anything I could have said to myself that I would have listened to. Anne: I think that’s such a good answer, because that’s how I am too. I just have to say like, yay, because I’m not the same way now. Like you listened to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast, but at the time you thought the best way to resist abuse was help your emotionally abusive husband change. CeCe: Right, there’s so much wisdom in it, but you have to be ready to hear it. ha ha. Anne: Ha ha, I would not have listened to myself either. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. You are so brave. You are so strong, and it’s so good to hear that you’re thriving and doing well. And I appreciate you sharing today. Cece: Thank you so much.
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  Once You See His Covert Narcissist Traits, Everything Changes 04.08.2026 31dk

  If you constantly feel confused, exhausted, or to blame for every issue in your relationship, you might be dealing with covert narcissist traits that are difficult to name. Once you see them, everything changes. HOW TO SPOT COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS: 5 BEHAVIORS TO NOTICE 1. HE’S YOUR INSTANT SOULMATE Notice if your relationship moves incredibly fast, and he seems perfectly tailored just for you.  It may be hard to remember this phase if you’ve been married for 10 or 20 years, but think back to when you met. Did it feel very serendipitous? Did it feel like you’d met your soulmate? That part can actually be grooming. Stay with me until the end, where I go into detail about my strategy for spotting this mirroring trap when you are dating. 2. CIRCULAR CONVERSATIONS OVER TINY ISSUES You gently ask him to text you if he is going to be late coming home. Somehow, it turns into an exhausting debate about how “you’re so suspicious” or “you don’t appreciate how hard he works.” Instead of discussing plans together, these conversations become emotionally draining loops. It might look like simple “miscommunication” on the surface, but the pattern shows something else. Healthy communication leads to clarity, while this manipulative type of communication leads to pure exhaustion and self-doubt when dealing with covert narcissist traits. 3. THE BLAME-SHIFTING VICTIM TRAP  If you try to share a concern with a covert narcissist, he’s likely to put it back on to you. That happened to me. I’d tell him maybe that a sarcastic comment hurt my feelings, and the next thing I knew he would tell me that I hurt his feelings without acknowledging what happened to me at all. In my relationship, I would end up apologizing or trying to help him feel better, and meanwhile, my concerns were never addressed. If he’s constantly the misunderstood victim, he’s avoiding taking responsibility for his own bad behavior. 4. SPENDING TIME ALONE WITH HIM FEELS DEPLETING  You might notice that out and about, you have a good time together, like if you’re going to a movie or doing a project together. A lot of women describe how they might go to a dinner party with him, and everything is great. But the second they get into the car together, alone, he’s like cold, silent, completely disconnected. Maybe blaming her for how the party didn’t go well, even though the party went just fine. Or a vacation with the whole family usually goes pretty well. But if you just take a couple trips, it’s like not fun at all. Healthy relationships usually feel really great in downtime together, but if he has covert narcissist traits, alone time will feel a little weird. 5. HE HIDES BEHIND EXPLANATIONS WITH COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS  If he continues to do really harmful things that you’ve never done and your healthy friends have never done, and then he explains it away by saying he had a traumatic childhood, or maybe stress from work, maybe an addiction, maybe even anxiety or depression. He might even say he’s struggling, confused, or working on himself. But if the behavior stays the same, those explanations only keep you stuck. Look at what he is actually doing right now to manipulate reality and harm your wellbeing. If you’re unsure if you’re experiencing covert narcissist traits, take our free emotional abuse test to see if he’s using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse. Key takeaways from the interview: Early Signs of Covert Narcissist Traits When Therapy and Labels Miss Emotional Abuse How to Help Victims of Covert Emotional Abuse Rebuilding Self-Trust After Covert Narcissist Abuse TRANSCRIPT: WHEN YOU SEE HIS COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS EVERYTHING CHANGES Anne: I interviewed three women from our community. We’re gonna start with Cynthia’s story, and then after you’re gonna hear from Maisie and Lorna. Welcome. Cynthia. Cynthia: Hello, Anne. It’s great to be here. Anne: So Cynthia, let’s start with your story. Cynthia: In the beginning he was so kind, generous. He had a great relationship with his mum. He was very outgoing and he built a very quick relationship with my mum as well. It made me feel very safe. This is great, like we’re all getting along. I had no idea he was hiding covert narcissist traits. We had a huge fight before the marriage, actually, and he got counseling that week. He came to me and said, “My therapist thinks you are the angry one, actually, not me.” So he’d managed to convince the therapist that I was the bad one. Anne: They very easily manipulate therapists. Because there’s lies. And then there’s levels of lies on those lies. We have no way of knowing what somebody said or didn’t say. But it wouldn’t surprise me if the therapist said that. COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS APPEAR AFTER THE WEDDING Cynthia: absolutely. On the wedding day, his best man talked about him and showed pictures of him. There was one picture that was really awful. My family is quite conservative. I just remember feeling really embarrassed, like, what on earth have I done? Then it was the evening, I went to sleep. He said he was going to say goodbye to people, and I just thought he would come to bed maybe half an hour later, and I woke up at 4:00 AM alone in the bridal suite. Things just got worse from then on. I’d wanted to be a mum since I was seven years old. I was actually going through fertility treatment with him. And he was starting to blame my hormonal imbalance. It was just his way of putting me down every single month. He even got my mum convinced that I was in perimenopause. And at this time, I’d already engaged with a psychologist, because I just felt like this is impossible to do anything with him. I was on antidepressants. We went out for a walk one day and I said, “Okay, so if we’re going on holiday in December and you want to do the fertility treatment in January, does that mean you’re not going to use the sauna in the spa hotel that we’re staying in?” And he was like, “No, no, I still wanna use the sauna. Maybe I’ll just use for one minute.” I said, “Well then we’ll have to wait until April then, ’cause we have to wait then three months after the holiday to do the treatment. HE PRIORITIZED HIS PLEASURE OVER MY PAIN Anne: So was he like a huge sauna fan before this? When you’re dating and when you’re, first married was he like, “sauna is my life. It is the most important thing to me.” This is a clue for women to look for, this is a piece of the puzzle. If there’s something that he hasn’t really cared that much about before, and then suddenly he’s caring about it a lot, that might be an indication to you that he’s lying. Cynthia: In the year leading up to the treatment, he didn’t once use a sauna. Why isn’t he just use the sauna now if he’s desperate? He didn’t. All of a sudden became a tactic for him, I felt, to control me. He knew I desperately wanted a child and I spent thousands on freezing my eggs and all of a sudden using a sauna was more important than that. And you know we were talking about the whole sauna thing for about six weeks. Anne: That’s crazy. I just wanna tell you how crazy that is. you’re talking about a sauna for six weeks. It’s so heartbreaking ’cause it feels like he cares about this one thing more than he cares about me, not realizing that he cares about everything more than he cares about us. In the moment, it feels like this is just about that, but they somehow twist it to be well, you don’t want me to enjoy myself on this vacation? You don’t want me to relax. Like, I do everything for you and I work so hard for you, and you won’t even let me have fun on vacation. COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS RUIN HOLIDAYS AND VACATIONS Anne: The likelihood of a couple therapist saying that this issue is a sign of something deeper, which is true, except for then they would go, that he’s not having his needs met. Cynthia: Yeah. Anne: That’s where they would’ve gone with it. They wouldn’t have said, he’s just not a good person. Because you’re just asking him not to go in a sauna. Like what is the big deal. It’s so stupid. Cynthia: Yeah. Anne: Holidays or vacations are something that generally we look forward to. We think we’re going to be able to connect. Although that can happen and sometimes it does. ‘Cause sometimes they amp up the grooming and the vacation is amazing. Generally speaking, vacations are miserable. I had a few of those where I didn’t wanna go. Both times before I told my family, I don’t even wanna go, is gonna go bad? And they were like, “no, of course it’s gonna be fine.” And it went so bad. And so I got to a point where I was like, I don’t ever wanna go on vacation with him again. Did you have any good vacations with him? Cynthia: Yes, because generally our vacations were with family, so we would always go back to the UK and during that time there was other, people he could get attention from. When it was just me and him alone, it was the worst. HOW YOUR HUSBAND HIDES WHAT HE’S REALLY DOING Cynthia: The thought of going alone to this place, just the two of us, I was not looking forward to that. What I noticed is that when we had long weekends together, the two of us, I didn’t feel energized. I felt completely depleted. Anne: I have a few theories about pornography use related to vacations and weekends. Cynthia: I was just going to mention about the pornography. There was pornography use as well. Anne: Totally during the weekdays, they’re able to use porn at work, or they’re able to use work as an excuse to use pornography. But like a Saturday and a Sunday, there’s no reason to get away to do porn except manufacture a fight. And even if it doesn’t go super bad, he just isn’t able to connect for that long. that’s as deep as he goes. You’ve reached the bottom of the barrel. But that also might explain why he was okay on vacations with other people. Because when you’re on vacation with more people, you could be talking to your mom or friends, and he could say something like, “Oh, hey, I’m just gonna run over here to the store real quick.” And you wouldn’t say, oh, I’ll go with you. You’d be like, oh, cool. I’ll talk to my mom. When other people are around, he can sneak away, use porn. It’s just way harder to do what he wants to do when you are the only person around. Cynthia: And I also noticed a shift in his behavior in the evening, so we would very rarely go to bed together. His excuse was that he wasn’t tired. I think he was using in those times, as well. THEY DON’T VIEW WOMEN AS PEOPLE Anne: There’s a huge connection between pornography use and men with covert narcissist traits. Women might think their husband’s don’t use pornography, that he is cleanbrowsing. I’m like, wait, tell me all the clues. And they’ll tell me and I’ll be like, that clue points to pornography. That one points to pornography. So, the likelihood is so high. It also means that they don’t view women as people. Cynthia: Oh yeah, absolutely. I remember I had a lot on with work, coming home every night and it was like I was going into this roundabout like round and round and round talking about nothing and never resolving anything. He was traveling a lot. And during that period where he was traveling, I had a bit of mental space. That’s when I discovered Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I wrote this into Google, “When your husband blames you for being upset about his behavior.” And your website came up, Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And I was like, “Wow. I’m being gaslighted.” And that was like my D-Day. That’s when I first started to discover that I was in an abusive relationship. I just started to feel. I’m not alone. It’s not me. I saw the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Workshop. I immediately signed up for it and I did the whole thing, in one night. It’s really easy to follow. COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS: HOW LABELING HIM ISN’T HELPFUL Cynthia: I was so grateful for the website. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery podcast. I was listening to those every day and then I signed up for the BTR group coaching. If I hadn’t discovered Betrayal Trauma Recovery, I don’t know what I would’ve done because no psychologist was able to help me. BTR Group sessions were better therapy for me than a therapist, because I felt understood. I have not met any therapist that can explain things in the way that you’re able to, Anne. I really appreciate that because I feel like some of these tags, are being overly used these days. Anne: Those labels tend to explain why he does it rather than focusing on just the plain old fact that he does it. It doesn’t matter why he is abusive, he’s abusive. I don’t really care why he’s lying. He’s lying. I like focusing on what is happening rather than why it’s happening. Because the focus on why tends to end up accidentally taking women into, well then if I understand the why, like he’s a narcissist or he has childhood trauma or something, then you keep your focus on him. like, how can I help him? Or how can I solve this? Even how do I explain it to other people? Which still keeps you in that vortex. Cynthia: Yeah. My psychologist didn’t really understand what was happening. SUPPORT OF THE BETRAYAL TRAUMA RECOVERY GROUP SESSIONS Cynthia: I remember hearing, one of the podcasts when you interviewed another lady and she was saying about going in this roundabout. You get into a discussion and you can’t get off the roundabout. And it got to the stage where every time I came home from work, it was like I was being sucked into the black hole again. Discussing something and never resolving it. The support of the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group sessions made me realize that this is someone who doesn’t care about me or my feelings. And I also had a Betrayal Trauma Recovery one-on-one coaching session with one of the BTR coaches to decide, should I really just separate from this man? I’m living a normal life now, and able to go out and socialize. I’m promoting this to every woman that is in an abusive cycle. Anne: Thank you. You and women like you are exactly why I do this, because we’re the same. I went through the same thing. I know the confusion. And it’s just awful when you go to therapy and you can’t get help or when you’re going to clergy and they’re giving you the wrong information. It’s so hard to navigate. So thank you for your support. Thank you for sharing this. ‘Cause, if more women knew about it, I think we could really save women from years of pain in dealing with their husband’s covert narcissist traits. Cynthia: I would not have been able to recover without all of the material that you have. Especially, during the divorce process. It really helped me because I decided to use the best solicitor I could find that could manage the transaction with him. Removing myself from having any interaction with him, really helped. HE’S USING HER INTERNAL WARNING SYSTEM AGAINST HER Cynthia: So I can live my happy life now. Anne: That is my life mission. It’s what I focus on every day, all day long. Cynthia: I have a really good friend her daughter is in an abusive relationship cycle, and she’s bought the BTR Workshop. But the problem we have is we can’t get her to Betrayal Trauma Recovery . Because she thinks that maybe we’re pushing her for the divorce and we’re not doing that. And what I say to my friend is, ” Well, the great thing about Betrayal Trauma Recovery is they don’t promote divorce, actually. Your daughter can keep herself safe and protect the children. So anyway, I bought her the Workbook. She’s gonna be fine when she sees the truth, but she doesn’t want to educate herself on what to do. Anne: I wouldn’t even say she doesn’t want to, she’s naturally being very confused. That is going to feel bad. I’ve talked to so many women who say something like, I’ve been praying and praying and praying about it, and it just can’t be that because it doesn’t feel right. I get that because we need to get back in touch with our intuition. Your intuition is warning you, something’s wrong. You can feel that and they’re interpreting it through, “Well, it’s wrong. And so i’m gonna keep trying to talk to him, I’m gonna keep trying to work this out.” So he’s using her internal, warning system against her. Of course it’s going to feel bad. It’s abuse and even when you’re doing the right thing, it’s still going to feel bad. IT’S ONLY GOING TO WORK WHEN SHE’S READY Cynthia: I have this other friend who’s been in this cycle for six years. I keep sending her your podcast. It’s too scary for her. There must be thousands and thousands of women like this, feeling in this fog, and they just can’t get out. So when she’s ringing up her mum to say, “Hey, Chuck just did this, he just screamed at me or punched the wall.” What can the mum say to help her? Is there anything apart from just listening? Anne: Listening’s good to help women deal with the confusion around their husband’s covert narcissist traits. I found that women I meet in my congregation, for example, I’ll be like, I know what to do here. And I take it over to them. They don’t tend to watch it. Because they’re like, I don’t need this. I’ve got my therapist kind of a thing. And that’s really sad. ’cause then I see them in that same cycle for years and years and years. And I keep asking, have you watched it? And they’re like, no, I don’t have time. So it’s women like you who are like, I’m gonna enroll in this. Who actually see the value in it. Cynthia: The sad thing about that though is the BTR Workshop, it doesn’t just make you feel seen. It also can help you prevent being with an unhealthy person in the future. Whether that be a friend, whether it be, unhealthy family members. Once you start to know the signs, there’s so many self reflective exercises. It’s very empowering, for women to go through that. Especially when they’re in a time of need. I agree with you. That’s why I said to my friend, “It’s only gonna work when she’s ready.” IF THEIR HUSBAND HAS BEEN MANIPULATING THEM WITH COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS Anne: The other problem is that if their husband has been manipulating them and using covert narcissist traits. And they’re going to a therapist. They’ve gone to multiple therapists, they’ve gone to multiple clergy and they’ve tried all these things. Everyone is like, “This is what to do.” And it never works. Then why in the world would this random lady be the answer? She’s just like everyone else. What else is she gonna tell me? It’s really hard to be like, I promise the BTR Workshop is nothing like anything you’ve seen before. Cynthia: Absolutely. Anne: Not what any therapist is gonna tell you. Because they haven’t experienced it, they can’t really understand what I’m talking about. I had to set it up step by step to really understand it. Because there’s no way to just explain it. It goes into extreme depth, but it’s very clear. If I try to explain it without the videos, which I did for years. It just got all muddled up. Cynthia: No, you need the videos. Anne: Because the visual, seeing it is what helps it click for women. Cynthia: I was wondering, as we’re talking now for all these women that are going to these therapists. How about if they were educated on this? Because it feels like that’s really the only avenue to reach those women watching the workshop videos. I STARTED FEELING BETTER AS I DID THE BTR WORKSHOP Anne: I’ve had people do it, then they go to therapy. Or do other things like art therapy. And do that for years. And then they’re like, oh, wait, wait, wait. There was that Workshop. I gotta do that again. They do it again. And they’re like, Ahhh! Cynthia: What I loved about the whole thing, is I needed help immediately when I had my D-Day discovery, where I was like, wow, I’m being gaslit. So I have this recording now. I wanted to know what I could do, and the BTR Workshop enabled me to just do that. And I think I started, eight in the evening and I couldn’t stop. I was starting to feel better as I was working through it. Like, wow, I’m starting to see the light and I feel good. I’ve had very expensive therapists. I’m talking thousands for just a weekend retreat. And the Workshop helped me tenfold. Because I was able to have the tools to take care of me. Anne: I appreciate you and any of the other listeners out there who are getting the word out about BTR, to everybody that you can, because I kind of get lumped in the same category as maybe like a covert narcissist traits influencer or something. Rather than realizing the services that we have here and the information in the workshop is very solid. Cynthia: Oh yeah. Anne: Rather than just “selling some online course.” IT TAKES YOU ON A JOURNEY OF DISCOVERY Cynthia: Yeah, it’s been very well thought out, and it takes you on a journey of discovery about your husband’s or your partner’s true character. And then it gives you specific tools, to protect yourself from covert narcissist traits so you’re in a safe place. It’s for women that are in a relationship that don’t want to leave the relationship to protect themselves at home, maybe in home separation. It’s for women that want to educate themselves, that want to understand why they’ve been feeling like they’ve been living in this fog. When I’ve been joining the group sessions, there’s been women of all different stages of the recovery. There’s people like me that were in the initial discovery. For me, the workshop is the beginning of the recovery journey, and you really have to start there to know that you are not the problem. I mean, it’s the most amazing thing I’ve done. It’s better than anything. It’s helped me the most in my life. Anne: Thank you. It’s such an honor to hear your story and it feels really good that it’s helping people. Especially because sometimes I feel like I have this amazing information and there’s also no risk. There’s a lot of risk to therapy. It’s expensive and it’s a lot of time. And I don’t think people realize how risky it is. Whereas our BTR Workshop is zero risk. It’s not too expensive, and it doesn’t take a ton of time. And listening to the Betrayal Trauma Podcast is also zero risk. There’s just this one little tiny risk, and that is that your whole life might change. Cynthia: Yeah. COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS CAN BE EXHAUSTING AND CONFUSING Anne: I guess that is the risk. And that seems too risky, maybe for some people. Anyway, thank you Cynthia. I so appreciate your help, and spreading the word and sharing your story today. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Cynthia: Thank you. It’s been wonderful to be here. And please, uh, continue doing all the great work you’re doing. Anne: I’m so grateful to Cynthia for sharing her story. Her experience shows how exhausting and confusing these covert narcissist traits can be when you’re in the thick of it. So next we’re gonna shift gears a little bit. One question I hear often from women who are doing the work of healing is, “How do you start trusting yourself again and how do you make sure you don’t miss those subtle red flags of this covert narcissism if you ever start dating again?” Two other members of our community, Maisie and Lorna talk about what these patterns look like if you’ve left a narcissistic abuser. But before we hear their stories, I’m gonna share a little bit about my own dating history. Anne: I didn’t get married until I was 30 and I dated so much before I met my ex-husband. At that time, I thought I had a really strong self worth. When I met him, was like, this is the man I’ve been waiting for. I have no regrets. EXPERIENCE WITH COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS WHILE DATING Anne: I’m so grateful that I married my ex because I wouldn’t have my kids or the life that I have now without his amazing contributions that he’s made to my knowledge about emotional and psychological abuse and narcissists. Um, I’m not gonna diagnose my ex as a narcissist per se, but when you read the definition of narcissist, he definitely has those characteristics. So I don’t really want to go back in time to avoid marrying him. But I didn’t do some things that I would do now if I were dating. My main problem was I laid it out on the table. This is exactly what I want. I would talk a lot. And my talking was the perfect setup because all they had to do was agree with me and nod their heads. And I thought I’d met the man of my dreams. If I date now, I don’t say very much, and I ask them questions and then observe , because I don’t want to put all my cards on the table and say, I love Star Wars. Me too. I love Indiana Jones. Me too. Rather I say, what kind of movies do you like? When you’re having a conversation with them, do they ask you questions about yourself and your life or do they monologue and then they let you monologue. So you feel like they’re a really good listener because you talk and talk and talk and they listen. Try pulling back on your conversation and just see if he listens, when you just say one thing. Okay. I want to do this and then pause. And see how he responds when you give very short answers without a lot of context or without a lot of explanation. MAISIE TELLS HER STORY Anne: Maisie, can you tell us just a tiny bit of your story about dealing with covert narcissist traits in relationships? Maisie: I was married for 10 years. Even before I was actually married, I had maybe three bad relationships, one which was violent. The guys I have tended to get in relationships with have been just emotionally unavailable or not being able to show affection. Women can get confused. And I think that’s probably why I was confused before I really researched it to try and help myself is. People think abuse is just violence or really severe mental abuse. Is infidelity abuse? Actually like a lot of intricate parts of a relationship, someone cheating on you or someone being emotionally unavailable and withholding affection and you know you come home and they just don’t want to be around you or don’t want to talk to you and that kind of thing is abusive. So I didn’t really know that I had low self esteem. I knew there was something not right. Cause you ask yourself, why does this keep happening to me? I have two children now, two daughters. That’s with my husband, who I was with. And when we split up and I ended that relationship, I was really at rock bottom. That’s probably the lowest point I’ve ever been. That was only three years ago. We separated. And I think the whole year I must have read about a hundred self help books. I mean I just read night and day. Every spare minute I had, I read. I didn’t really go out much or socialize. I thought I have to help myself because there’s something wrong here. IT ISN’T UNTIL YOU HIT ROCK BOTTOM THAT YOU DO SOMETHING Maisie: Because of all these continuous cycles I was putting myself in. I think that’s what can happen with a lot of women. You go along, you think you’re fine, you’re fine, you’re fine, you’re fine, and it isn’t until you hit rock bottom that you’ll actually do something about it. Doing everything I could to help me, and I remember at the time thinking, I wish there was somewhere I could go, something affordable. I was on my own with my two children, just ended the marriage, so finances and everything was changing for me. Obviously, at the same time, I was also working as a domestic abuse advocate, so I’m working with high risk victims at work, and I’m going through my own thing as well. It just made me completely reflect on everything, with everything that I’d researched and, you know, learned for myself, trying to pull myself out of this hole. Anne: When you set out to discover what your “problem” was, you discovered that you do not have a problem. Maisie: That’s right. Yeah. TRUSTING YOURSELF AGAIN AFTER EXPERIENCING COVERT NARCISSIST TRAITS Anne: . Lorna , can you speak to that for a little bit? Lorna: Yeah, when you’re in a relationship like that, all you do is overcompensate, you’re always thinking it’s your fault, you should be doing more, you should be a better person. It’s almost like your whole life revolves around trying to please this person. When you get to that rock bottom place, I’ve been in exactly the same place, where I want to just be out of this universe. I felt like I cannot deal with this pain anymore. My ex partner, who I have children with, he was exactly the same. We have a very similar story with that. I just couldn’t believe that I had children with a person who treated me so badly. Thinking, okay, well, he’s doing this because of who I am. It’s not because of who he is. It was exhausting. I would do everything I could to try and please this person. It never happened, until one day I just thought, I cannot do this anymore. Or I thought it was going to kill me, I did. Now looking back, I think there must have been some kind of inner strength within you to do that. All I could do was really reflect on and think to myself, I cannot allow this to happen to me again. I only live once. I need to have the best quality of life for me and my children. And I will never allow that to happen again. And I can’t control what he done. I can’t control about what half the men do out there. But I can control how I act on it, and I can control my happiness. And I am on my own now. HE SAYS HE’S GOING TO CHANGE Lorna: And all I think about is my own happiness and my children’s happiness. Maisie: When you’re in a good place and you’re going into a relationship. It’s a win win situation. A few years ago, I don’t know what I was willing to tolerate. I would just see, oh, this guy’s gorgeous, oh, he’s got a good job, he’s so nice, he’s treating me so amazing. And then I could find out, oh, well, he may be cheating on me. Oh, okay, well, I’ll just give him another chance. I’ll just give him one more chance. He’s saying he’s going to change. So I’ll just give him one more chance. So that’s why Know your worth and know your boundaries. Anne: When women really know their worth. Many abusers accuse them of being selfish, or prideful or not respecting men. What are your thoughts about dating after recovering from being abused by someone with covert narcissist traits? Lorna: It’s a peaceful silence within you. All your power and all the light comes from within. A lot of the times, the narcissist is the light and life of the party. I think a lot of people that you do see as really outgoing, they’ve got lots of issues right underneath. And no matter what kind of personality you have, if you stick to your beliefs and your values, you live by what you believe, because you’re not going against anything just to please other people. Maisie: It can be misconstrued even by women that they think, yeah, you’re manipulating a situation. This is treating men badly. No, it’s not. It’s all about you knowing what you’re worth, having the ability to be able to make choices and be confident about them. GIVING PEOPLE THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT Maisie: I mean, I never used to be able to make a decision. I used to have to run to my mum forever. Mum, I don’t know what to do. Like, should I do this? Should I do that? And now I’m like, it’s my decision. Women have got a lot to give. Anne: Yeah, after covert narcissist traits abuse, you might have that value conflict of being confident in what you want, but then also giving people the benefit of the doubt or wanting people to like you. And that’s totally understandable. something I always say to my kids and something that I apply in dating. Don’t put your best foot forward because you don’t want them to fall in love with your foot. You want them to fall in love with you. Well, I appreciate you reaching out. Thank you so much for sharing just a tiny bit of your story. Maisie: Well, thank you for having us. Lorna: Thank you so much. It’s been lovely. Anne: And to our listeners, think about what you think women should look for after narcissistic abuse. If you relate, comment below. ​
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  The Urgent Marriage Bible Reference No One Quotes 28.07.2026 55dk

  If you’ve ever searched for a marriage bible reference because someone told you, “A good Christian wife shouldn’t say no,” you’re not alone. Many women, especially when we’re juggling children, church expectations, and a husband who says he has “needs”, go looking for scripture to settle the question: Does the Bible really require me to submit to intimacy that feels one-sided or emotionally detached? Why women need thiese bible references In this interview with Sheila Wray Gregoire (co-author of The Great Sex Rescue, based on research from more than 20,000 Christian women), we unpack something most marriage conversations miss: The Bible repeatedly tells believers to resist evil, guard their hearts, and seek protection—not to submit to harm in God’s name. Let’s walk through the powerful marriage bible reference no one quotes when women are pressured into “intimacy” out of duty. The Marriage Bible Reference For Women in a Confusing Marriage A common problem in Christian marriage teaching is defining intimacy almost entirely around intercourse and male climax. In the interview we discussed a study of over 20,000 Christian women. Here’s what we found. Women who feel emotionally disconnected report far lower satisfaction intimacy. Obligation-driven intimacy correlates with increased pain and emotional withdrawal. Yet many Christian books interpret these bible references to frame physical intimacy as: His need Her obligation A way to prevent him from using inappropriate or exploitative media or infidelity For a mom who already carries the emotional weight of the family, this adds another invisible burden:“Keep him stable, or it’s your fault if he sins.” That framing erases the pain she feels from the infidelity because apparently she caused it. This is actually a form of spiritual and emotional abuse. To find out if you’re experiencing this, here’s my free emotional abuse test. The Marriage Bible Reference No One Quotes When women are told to endure their husband’s harmful behavior in marriage, certain verses are often quoted. But others, just as authoritative, are quietly ignored. Here are the powerful passages that show God consistently calls His people to protect themselves from harm. 1. “Deliver Us From Evil” — Matthew 6:13 Jesus Himself taught believers to pray for deliverance from evil. Not “Help us tolerate evil” or “Help us endure harm silently.”Deliver. The Lord’s prayer tells us to pray for deliverance and it means God wants to protect us. God makes it clear that evil exists and we should seek to be delivered from it. To talk to Christian women who understand your situation, attend one of our daily, online Group Sessions. There you can fellowship with faithful women who are discovering their husband’s true character and figuring out what to do through prayer and scripture study. 2. “Guard Your Heart” — Proverbs 4:23 “Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.” If physical with your husband feels soul-crushing, if your body recoils, if you feel used rather than known, this verse supports protecting your emotional and spiritual core. Guarding your heart is not rebellion. It’s what God wants women to do if their husband hurts them emotionally. 3. “Resist the Devil” — James 4:7 “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.” Resistance is biblical. Spiritual language is being used by wicked people to override your righteous boundaries. , that pressure should not go unquestioned. Scripture does not command passive compliance with manipulation. 4. “Put On The Armor of God” — Ephesians 6:10–18 Here’s the thing, many scriptures are actually marriage bible references, even if they don’t say “marriage” because they talk about how believers should deal with people who hurt them. For example, why would God tell anyone, even women, to put on the armor of God? Because harm is real. The imagery of spiritual armor teaches you to stand firm and defend yourself. Often, women don’t realize the man she married is lying to her, pretending to be righteous when he’s actually undermining her and their marriage. This causes real harm and God wants everyone, including women to protect themselves. 5. “God Is Refuge” — Psalm 46:1 “God is our refuge and strength, an ever-present help in trouble.” Refuge means safety. A marriage should provide emotional safety. But if it doesn’t, there’s something wrong. If the way your husband treats you leaves you feeling invisible or emotionally unsafe, that does not align with how marriage should be, according to God. 6. “Hate What Is Evil” — Romans 12:9 “Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.” Marriage does not transform evil into righteousness. Coercion does not become holy because you made a vow with a man who lied and doesn’t keep his vows. If he doesn’t keep his vow to cherish and protect you, it’s not your fault. God wants you to hate being harmed so you can learn to protect yourself. How The Wrong Interpretation of a Marriage Bible Reference Hurt Generations of Women Certain marriage bible references have been interpreted incorrectly, and have told women that… “She must be available for physical intimacy or he’ll sin.” “All men struggle with lust, so this is normal.” “Her body is the solution to his sin problem.” The research tells us that when women are told these untrue interpretations they have Lower marital satisfaction Higher pain Greater emotional disconnection Meanwhile, women who report emotionally close marriages experience: Higher mutual satisfaction Better intimacy Greater physical responsiveness The data does not support obligation intimacy as “saving” marriage. It supports emotional health as the foundation of a healthy, fulfilling marriage. What This Means for Women With Children If you’re raising kids with a man who is harming you, you’re trying to figure out what God wants you to do because the situation is complex. You have children to raise and you’re likely financially dependent on your husband. Here’s a powerful truth to help you. Scripture consistently calls believers to pursue righteousness, safety, and protection. Examples in real life might look like: Saying, “I am not willing to have one-sided intimacy. If fact, if it is, it’s not really intimacy is it.” Refusing to accept sexual sin as “normal male behavior.” Stop seeking counsel from people who don’t take your concerns seriously. Praying for deliverance, not just for endurance. Reframing the “Marriage Bible Reference” Requirement Women tell me they were discouraged to protect themselves from their emotionally unsafe husband by people quoting scripture. But there are countless marriage bible references that encourage people to separate themselves from wickedness. If someone is using scripture to coerce you to stay close to someone who harms you, they’re not being Christlike. Christ would put his arms around you and tell you you deserve to feel emotionally safe in your own home. The Bible does speak about marriage. But it also repeatedly commands believers to: Flee evil (1 Thessalonians 5:22) Stand firm (1 Corinthians 16:13) Seek wisdom (James 1:5) Protect the vulnerable (Psalm 82:3–4) Nowhere does scripture teach that a wife must endure coercion to prove her godliness. It DOES NOT say that male desire overrides female consent. Nowhere does it command women to sacrifice their emotional health to preserve appearances. Transcript: Marriage Bible Reference No One Quotes Anne: So many women are looking for marriage bible references to figure out if they are being a Godly wife. If you’re not Christian or you’re agnostic or atheist, this episode has a lot of data that will be useful to you. We’ll talk about the incorrect interpretations of scripture that show up in secular places as well, and how it’s harmed women. Women looking for God’s help to save their marriage (or improve it) aren’t dumb. They’re humble and are reaching out for help. The problem is people are telling them the bible says certain things about marriage that it actually doesn’t say. So today I’m talking with Sheila Rae Gregoire. She’s best known as the blogger of to love honor and vacuum. And she, her daughter Rebecca Gregoire Lindenbach and Epidemiologist Joanna Sowatski, surveyed more than 20,000 Christian women. About their lives, marriages, and beliefs about marriage and intimacy. Together, they wrote a book called The Great Sex Rescue, the Lies You’ve Been Taught, and How to Recover What God intended. After reading it, I’m like, throw all your other Christian intimacy books in the garbage. Today, Sheila and I will focus on how to recognize intercourse that’s unhealthy. So, Sheila, you started writing about intimacy in Christian circles a long time ago. What got you interested in this in the first place? Christian Books Containing Bad Advice: Sheila’s Journey Into Intimacy Writing Sheila: Thanks so much for having me. We had such a great time chatting before we even recorded this, that like, hey, we’re just besties. Well, it’s like nobody grows up thinking I’m going to become the Christian sex lady. Like that’s not anyone’s plan, and it certainly wasn’t mine. I started blogging and I was just talking about marriage, you know, and parenting and housekeeping, and just the normal mom blog stuff. But simultaneously, my husband and I were speaking at many marriage conferences, and we always had to do the talk because nobody wanted to do it. And so we would just get plugged in there and he’s a doctor. He’ll talk up at anything. He doesn’t care. And I don’t care either. So it seemed like we were always the intimacy people. And I just started writing about it more. The more I wrote about it, the more people showed up at the blog. And I think ever since then, my blog has been mostly about intimacy. Anne: Hey, I get where you’re coming from. I never thought I’d be the pornography podcaster. So I totally get it. My mom always says the anti-pornography podcaster. So tell me about this study that you did. Sheila: It seemed like no matter how much we said, and no matter how much good content I produced. People still had all the same problems. And it was like I wasn’t making a dent in it. And I started to wonder, maybe the issue isn’t that people don’t have enough good resources. Maybe it’s that our foundation is faulty, and there’s something seriously wrong underneath. But until we address that structural flaw, nothing’s really going to work. Huge Study About Identifying Messages Hurting Women Sheila: And so we did this huge study of Christian women in every denomination, every sect, every everything. Trying to figure out what correlates with good a good intimate life, and what correlates with a bad one. And how we can identify what messages in Christian books hurt women. And I think one of our big problems is just a definitional one. So if I were to say to you, did you have it last night? Okay, which I won’t, because that’s really creepy. But if I asked you that, chances are you’re thinking something specific. Like, you’re thinking, did he put his thing into her thing and move around until he climaxed? You know, that’s our definition. Anne: You can say penis and vagina, by the way. So let’s just say really quick, for this particular episode, if you do have young ears listening, we will be saying that. So you may want to pause and restart when they’re not in the car. Sheila: I’m probably going to say orgasm too. So anyway, yeah, did he put his penis into her vagina and move around until he reached climax? And that’s what we think it is. But, in our survey, what we found is that only about a third of women who do reach orgasm can reach orgasm through intercourse alone. Okay, so most women need something other than just intercourse. And most women find it easier to reach orgasm in other ways. Biblical Perspective On Intimacy Sheila: So if we say intercourse is just man puts thingy into her thingy and moves around until he climaxes, we’re leaving her almost entirely out of the description. Like she could lie there counting ceiling tiles, she could write a grocery list in her head, and that still counts. And that’s just not how the Bible talks about it. First of all, it’s not only physical. The Bible talks about it as a deep knowing, you know, Adam knew his wife Eve. Like it’s a deep knowing between two people. So it isn’t just. physical. It’s also supposed to be spiritually intimate. Then it’s supposed to be mutual and pleasurable, where both get something out of it. And instead, we’ve condensed it to one-sided intercourse. When we do that, all kinds of bad things happen. And I think our primary problem is that we see it mostly from a male perspective, that it’s only about intercourse. Well, Biblical intimacy is something which is life giving. It’s something which binds you together and helps you to feel more intimate. The way we often talk about it is actually something which is soul crushing. We see it as an obligation that she owes him. So it’s an entitlement on his part. It’s an obligation on hers. Many Christian intimacy authors write books with bad information. And that’s got all kinds of repercussions. What we saw over and over again in our survey responses and in the focus groups we did afterwards. Is that the women with the best lives, the most responsive, and enjoyed it the most. Were the women who felt emotionally close to their husbands, both inside and outside the bedroom. Emotional Closeness & Satisfaction Sheila: So, the people in the happiest marriages tend to have the best intimacy, and that shouldn’t surprise us. Like, well, that’s kind of intuitive, right? But the problem is, we talk about it as if it can be a substitute for those other things. Like, if you don’t feel close, you should just have it so that you’ll be closer. What we found is that that doesn’t actually work. When women have it for years. And they feel emotionally distant from their husbands, they just can’t sustain that. When you have it, which is supposed to be deep knowing, and when it becomes only physical. It actually becomes a rejection of you. Like if it is supposed to be a knowing, it means both people matter. But if it becomes something that you only do because you’re supposed to, then your needs are no longer being considered. And that means you don’t matter, and then it becomes a rejection, and that’s not right. Think about it this way. When you get a driver’s license, you can now drive. It doesn’t mean you get a car. And when you get married, you now have the relationship in which you can have it. It doesn’t mean you get it. You’re just now in the relationship where it is sanctioned by God. But that doesn’t mean it has to happen anymore than having a driver’s license means you get a car. It just means you have permission to drive. And it’s the same thing with intercourse. You know, when we get married, it’s not like we’re promising now I will have it with you whenever you want. We’re now saying this is the relationship in which life giving it can occur. The Impact Of Forced Intercourse On Women Sheila: And that’s healthy. That’s a good thing. That’s what we should be aiming for. But God does not require us to have soul crushing intercourse. And if you’re told you need it, or else something bad will happen. right? Or else he’s going to watch explicit material, or else he’s going to have an affair, or he’ll be grumpy and treat you terribly. Then that’s not a free choice that you are making. When you can’t freely say no, you can’t freely say yes either. And that’s a big problem. And we’ve got the numbers. I’m a numbers person. I love it. But we have so much data of what happens when you have it for years, simply because you feel like you have to. And you feel almost forced into it, and it is not pretty. This does not end well for women. This is soul crushing. And what I often tell women to say is something like this, “hon, I would love to have a passionate life with you. I would love to make love with you. But that’s not what’s happening right now. What’s happening right now is that I feel used and so I am no longer willing to have it one-sided with you. I need to connect in every way, and I need to be able to trust you and I need to feel safe. And until that happens, I am no longer willing to have it with you.” That’s okay to do because when God created us for relationship and marriage, he didn’t create us so that we were now slaves to someone else, as many Christian relationship books state. Personal Experiences & Struggles Sheila: He created us for connectedness, for community, for relationship, for emotional health. God never wants you to feel used. That is never his will. Anne: I remember when I first got married, I was 31 and a virgin. I remember telling my friends who were also virgins, I said, I feel like a machine. It was really one-sided. I didn’t enjoy it from the beginning, and I said, it’s weird. Because I just feel like some object he use. I thought I would get it, but I don’t get it. And I remember thinking that and telling people that because I was trying to get help. I was trying to be like, what is this? How do I navigate this? There were so many things I didn’t understand. I didn’t know he was using it. I didn’t know I was being gaslit. But I think many women have that thought of like, am I just? A robot? What am I? Who am I? What is my identity in this? And how do I fit into this? What does lack of true intimacy do to a woman? Can you talk about what the data said about women who have traditional views on gender roles? Or who get their information from popular marriage bible references that have been misinterpreted? Sheila: Yeah, I found this interesting. Okay, so let me take my daughter, for instance. One of my daughters is a real homemaker. She loves everything about being a housewife. And she came home last week because her husband is in the military and he’s away right now. She came home last week, and cleaned my entire kitchen, got behind the fridge, got under the stove. Like she totally cleaned everything. Christian Promote Harmful Traditional Gender Roles And Mandatory Intimacy Sheila: She lives for this sort of thing. And her husband, like I said, is in the military. Okay, he likes to shoot things for fun. Like he loves doing skull art. He will shoot animals, and he will turn the skulls into things on the wall. All right. Now, what we found is that when you look at couples like my daughter and son-in-law, if those roles are freely chosen. So if she decides to stay home and be a housewife, and if he decides to work outside the home. Because that is what they individually want to do, that’s great. But if they make that choice because they think I have to stay at home because I’m a woman, and I have to go out and earn a living because I’m a man, their emotional intimacy suffers. Anne: Does it also apply to something, like I have to clean the toilet, make dinner or do the laundry because I’m a woman? And the man thinking, you have to clean the toilet because you’re the woman? Sheila: Probably, I would assume, but we can’t speak to that because we didn’t specifically ask about that. There are some more words that we didn’t put in. We didn’t say we’re egalitarian. Even though we are, we didn’t say lots of words like that. And that was deliberate. That was a deliberate choice that we made. And the reason is because the people I need to reach, the people whose minds I need to change. Are the people who are buying in the most to many of these negative teachings. Trying To Change People’s Minds Sheila: They tend to be the people in the most patriarchal churches. That’s another word we didn’t use, patriarchal. We wanted to present the data and let it speak for itself. What we found on the blog over the last few years is that every time I try to talk about gender roles or something, we end up talking past each other. People start debating doctrine and they start debating. What does the Bible say about this? I don’t find that gets us anywhere, but if I can say something like, you can believe that if you want. But she’s going to have a 38 percent lower orgasm rate. I find that works better. We try to bring it back to the data and get it out of the political realm or the doctrinal realm. And talk about the data. I think this can help change people’s minds. I think this is the way in, because most people want good intimacy. Like, most people don’t want this to be wrecked. And so if I can show them, Hey, when you believe these things, it is more likely to be terrible. They’re going to listen to me much more than if I start talking about how misogynistic everybody is. Anne: I like it. I do use those terms I don’t think of them as political, you know, but some people do. So I respect that you did that and that makes total sense. Sheila: Well, I think you’re a different spot though, right? Like you get people who are coming to you, who have already felt betrayed or are thinking about it. I’m trying to reach a broader audience and change the conversation. I just hope we’re doing that. I think we are. Popular Christian Books & Their Flaws Anne: Oh, I think so too. Can you talk about these popular Christian books and some of the main themes that you saw that were unhealthy for women? Sheila: Yeah, one of the biggest ones is summed up in a Christian book called Love and Respect, where the author says, if your husband is typical, he has a need you don’t have. And that says so much. Like, first of all, it says it is for the guy. It’s not for the woman. It phrases it in terms of his need, rather than just a drive. You know, I don’t believe it is a need. I think we all have a drive, but it’s not a need. And when we talk about it as a need, we frame it as something which she would be depriving him if she ever said no. Anne: He’s gonna die if you don’t have it with him. Sheila: Yeah, exactly. Anne: It’s like air and food. Sheila: So that’s highly problematic. That was typical, that framing of it as something about him, not about her. And then the other one, I think, which was big. Which goes throughout most resources is that you’re just not allowed to deprive him. So it is an obligation that women owe. Kevin Lehman in Sheet Music said, “You know, when you get married, realize you’re signing up to have it at least two or three times a week for the rest of your life. And sometimes you might have to force yourself and you might want to shove him off of you. But you have to do it anyway as an act of obedience.” Marriage Bible References Don’t Promote Marital Coercion Sheila: So we actually measured that. We said, what happens if women have it when their primary motivation is because I have to. And it just leads to all sorts of terrible things in terms of marital satisfaction. And it drives the couple further and further apart. Anne: I appreciated how you brought up what marital coercion is, which, to my knowledge, is not mentioned anywhere in any of these popular Christian books. They never say, if you don’t get your wife’s consent, then it’s rape, right? And I love how you brought that up. Were there any questions about marital rape in your study? Are Christian relationship books addressing this? No. Sheila: What we did is we talked about it in some focus groups and in some follow up surveys. And what I can tell you is that of the women who left their email addresses, which was about 20 percent of the women who took our survey. About 20 percent of them said they had stories of marital rape to share with us. Which is a very high percentage. Now, obviously that was a self selected group, but none of the evangelical resources we looked at even said the word consent. John Gottman’s book is the best selling marriage book on the secular market. Which we used as our control book Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work, that one spoke at length about consent. And so this is something which is talked about all the time in the secular world, which the Christian world has no idea how to talk about. Every Man’s Battle: A Critical Look Anne: Mm hmm, yeah, many of our listeners have experienced marital coercion. And so that number does not surprise me at all because we talk about it all the time. I don’t mean to make light of it, but it’s just something that’s common around here. So can we talk about Every Man’s Battle? Sheila: Okay, so Every Man’s Battle basically says men will lust, and the book is strange, okay. Because it’ll give a lot of lists of things that men do. Like maybe you find yourself opening the door for her, but not out of honorable means. Just so that she can go first, and you can stare at her behind. You know, maybe you find yourself looking across the room at a woman where a button has come undone. Maybe you find yourself masturbating in a gym car parking lot to see the women exiting the gym. And it’s like, excuse me. Or they’ll tell a story about this guy who’s watching TV. His sister-in-law is lying down on the floor on her stomach, and she falls asleep. And she’s got really short shorts on. So he masturbates there while she’s asleep on the floor. And they portray that as a sin against his purity, when really that is a sin against her. This is the problem throughout that book. Every time he lusts, it is a sin against his purity. And she never enters the equation. Like whenever they talk about women, they give this gross discussion of this jogger at the beginning of the book. How her glistening flesh, ample bosom, and skin tight tie-dyed jogging suit, it’s just gross. Treating Women Like Objects Sheila: And then they say the solution to lust is to bounce your eyes and not look at women. And then to transfer all your energy to your wife. Stop lusting after everybody else and just lust after your wife. But, you know, lust is a sin, even if it’s after your wife. Like lust is just simply using someone else for your gratification. That’s what lust is. So you shouldn’t be lusting after your wife either. You should love your wife and enjoy an intimate experience with her. Not just using her, but they think it’s okay to use her because she’s just your wife. Like you can’t defeat lust when you agree with lust’s definition of women. Lust’s definition of women is they exist as objects. So the way I’m going to defeat lust is to never look at a woman because she’s a object. And then to treat my wife like a object, so that I don’t want to treat all these other women like objects. How about just simply learning how to respect women as whole people? Anne: It’s not only a disservice to women, but also a disservice to men to say that men are incapable of treating women with respect. So you have to like what? Shut your eyes and Mr. Magoo through life. Christian Books Magnify The Stress Of Maintaining Purity Sheila: In the first chapter of Through A Man’s Eyes. It describes how stressful this man’s life is, because he’s trying to remain pure for his wife. So his entire workday is stressful. Because what if one of his coworkers is sitting across from him in their meeting, and her button is undone? Or what if another coworker, what if her skirt is too short? And what if the barista at the coffee shop, what if she’s wearing something tight? What if he sees these billboards and he’s trying not to look at anybody all day, and then he gets home and he’s so happy that now he gets to look at his wife. And I read that and I’m like, Are men really that stressed their entire life? Like, is it that difficult to be a man? So I asked my husband, who’s a pediatrician, and he works in an all female environment. So all the other doctors are female. The nurses tend to be female. The parents who bring the kids in are female. So I thought, if life is really this stressful, he’s going to have a terrible time. So I said, are you stressed all day because a woman might have a button undone or she might be too attractive? And he laughed at me. He didn’t think I was serious. And I said, no, no, I am serious. Like, is this difficult for you? That’s what some Christian relationship books say. And he still laughed at me. But the book had told me that men will not confess this to you. Men will not tell you the truth. And so your husband won’t tell you the truth. So I’m wondering, is he just not telling me the truth? Respecting Women As Whole People Sheila: And then when he realized I was serious, he’s like, wait, no, there are guys like that? No, there’s not. I don’t want to share too much information, but my husband is not a low drive man. Like, okay, he’s got testosterone and everything. And he thought this whole idea was the stupidest thing he’d ever heard, because my husband respects women. And he was really offended. He was offended that people would think a man can’t just respect women. And I just wish more men would get upset at the demeaning, horrible way these and other Christian books treat men. Anne: I mean, I talk to my sons often about that. Like, when we went to a water park. And one of my sons was like, Mom, I don’t know if I want to go there, because there are so many girls in bikinis, and it kind of bothers me. And I said, well, what do you think would happen if they didn’t have a stomach, these women? What is their stomach for? I’m like, is it for you to look at? Or is it so they can eat? And he was like, Oh, so they can eat. And I was like, and what are their legs for? What if a woman didn’t have legs? I’m trying to help him realize that women, regardless of what they’re wearing or doing, are people. And she’s not wearing a bikini to ruin your day. She’s just wearing a bikini, because she wants to go to the beach and soak up some sun. Navigating Life With An Addicted Spouse Anne: So many women when they find out about their husband’s explicit content use. They go into this mode where they’re like, we can’t go to the beach. We can’t go swimming. We can’t watch the Super Bowl. And suddenly, the things they can do narrow and narrow. And I’m not saying people should do things unethical or immoral. But I like going to the beach, you know, I want to go to the beach. I want to go to a water park with my kids. And want to enjoy regular wholesome activities with my children. I have a lot of empathy for this, because I went through the same period where I felt traumatized when we went to the beach. I felt like we couldn’t watch movies. It’s such a weight to bear, your husband’s inability to treat women with respect. Sheila: Well, first of all, I’m so sorry. You should never have to bear that. But in terms of how to handle that, if he can’t go to the beach, you can still go to the beach with your kids. Like, don’t wreck your own life. But the other thing is to remember what victory should look like. Victory means he can look at women as whole people. And that means that he needs to stop blaming women for his use and his lust. The reason he’s lusting is not because of what she’s wearing. The reason he’s lusting is because of how he chooses to see women, and it is not her fault. Christian Books Wrongfully Compare Your Wife To Methadone Anne: Absolutely, we see that type of behavior and disrespect for women as an abuse issue. Here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we’ve got an emotionally and psychologically abusive man. Who is unable to view women as people, and that’s going to include you. In Chapter six, you say your wife is not your methadone. Around here, I say alcoholics abuse alcohol, drug addicts abuse drugs, and addicts abuse people. They use people as drugs. Sheila: Yeah, when we first read the Christian book, Love and Respect, I was absolutely floored. Up until that time, I hadn’t read many evangelical marriage books or Christian marriage books, so I wasn’t aware of the prevailing interpretation of marriage bible references. Because I was always so scared of plagiarizing. So I read Love and Respect, the chapter said men need it in a way that women don’t. If men don’t get physical release, they’re going to have an affair, and women need to understand men’s lust problem. And that’s all it said. It was terrible. And I wrote a blog post about this, and I was trying to convey how awful this was, like how absolutely abhorrent this was. I was talking to my daughter, and she said, well, it’s almost like he’s talking about women like they’re methadone. And I thought, yeah, that’s the perfect analogy. So we said like, women are not methadone. And then I’m reading Every Man’s Battle, and they actually think that’s a selling feature. Like they use that line twice. They said once he quits cold turkey, be like a merciful vial of methadone for him. Anne: Wow. Sheila: Like they did it unironically. We were saying it ironically, they did it unironically. A Disturbing Comparison Sheila: Like they thought this was a good line. They have no clue. Let’s think about what that’s saying. Okay, methadone is a substitute. So if you’re addicted to opioids, what you want is the opioid. But you will settle for methadone, because it satiates you enough that you don’t feel the need to go after the opioid. So if we’re talking about this in the context of marriage and explicit content, what we’re saying is what he wants is to masturbate to that hot woman on the screen. But he will settle for having it with you, because that will satiate him enough that he won’t go for the it right now. Like that’s disgusting. Women are not methadone. Women are whole people made in the image of God, and we should never have been treated that way. And it’s absolutely unconscionable that the book series sold 4 million copies. Like where is the discernment and where are the leaders saying women are worth more than this? And I guess that’s what I want. I want people to understand that women are worth more than this. We are precious, and it was never meant to be reduced to. Hey, let him ejaculate inside of you so that he doesn’t watch it. That is abusive in every way. Thank you for what you’re doing, because my heart is for those who have been betrayed. I pray this message will get out there, and that it will be a message of real freedom. And just to know that God wants wholeness, He wants real intimacy, and it is never ever his heart that any woman feel used. Processing Trauma From Bad Advice Anne: I am so grateful that you have shed light on these dangerous ideas. That many Christian women have had as the foundation of their understanding of what it is and what their “role” is in it. So the question is, how do we process the trauma we’ve experienced from all the bad advice? That we may have received from these Christian books and society over the years? Sheila: I was in that culture, you know, that evangelical culture, which said men need it and women want affection. It’s usually the guy who’s frustrated. And women, what we need to do is understand how much he needs it. And in The Good Girls Guide, the Original, there was an element of it there. Because I was in that culture, and I was never comfortable with it. I always knew there was something wrong with it. And I was actually one of the first people to talk a lot about higher drive wives. Because I did a big survey back then, and found out how many women actually have the higher drive. And it’s like they don’t exist, like they’re unicorns. No one ever talks about that. It’s just, Oh, he needs it and she doesn’t, but not always true. But you know, the more I listened to women. The more I realized that we were missing out on a huge part of the story, and that was actually the impetus for doing that huge survey of 20, 000 women. We wanted to understand, do some evangelical teachings hurt women? Just like you said, they can cause actual trauma, and we were able to measure that. Measuring The Harm Of Incorrect Interpretations of Marriage Bible References Sheila: We can now say, Hey, if you believe all men struggle with lust, it’s Every Man’s Battle. It’s no wonder you don’t feel heard in your marriage. You’re like 47 percent less likely to feel heard in your marriage. Or 59%. less likely to feel like your opinions matter as much as his. This has major repercussions, we need to change the way we talk about it. Anne: When you start peeling back these layers of maybe Christian teachings that you get from incorrect Incorrect Interpretations of marriage bible references, general clergy or even societally. We have listeners who aren’t Christian, agnostics or atheists. They tell us the same thing. Maybe in a movie there was a man who was cheating. The woman was like, okay, I’m going to put on cuter outfit and I’m going to get him back or win him back somehow. So this isn’t just coming from Christian authors, but I think it’s more traumatic coming from Christian authors. Because you have some belief and trust that what they’re telling you is true, and it will help you. And if you follow their counsel or their teachings it’s God approved. Sheila: Yeah, I think one of the problems actually is that it steals our last place of safety. Like when we say God wants you to have it with your husband, so that he doesn’t watch it. Then who do you go to now when you feel betrayed? Who do you go to now when you feel desperate? Like this is God sanctioned now, so you can’t even pray. Like you have nothing left. They’ve stolen God from you too. And I think that’s where a lot of the source of trauma comes from. The Problem With Frequency Over Quality Anne: That’s spiritual abuse. It’s spiritual coercion, essentially saying you’re not a godly person if you don’t give it to your husband when you don’t want it. And they’re also not saying, maybe you don’t want it for a good reason. Maybe because you don’t feel safe. Maybe because he’s been lying to you. Sheila: That’s the big difference, what is the aim of all the advice? What are we actually working towards? And what we’re working towards is an emotionally healthy relationship. The way that we believe God intended. So we’re working towards a life which is intimate, pleasurable, and mutual. It’s going to be emotionally healthy. And that means you don’t do things that are emotionally unhealthy, that will hurt someone. And yet, if you look at the advice often given in Christian circles and in the world, the aim is not necessarily emotional health. The aim is to keep your marriage together. Or make sure he feels good, or do this so that you will feel like a good wife. And it’s not actually about health, and should we be surprised when people end up hurt? Anne: Yeah, it’s almost like the goal was simply to ensure that women have it with their husbands. Like that was the top priority. Because it seemed like the concern was, heaven forbid, a wife not having it with her husband. That is the, like, biggest problem in the world. Sheila: Yeah, you know, what are the outcome variables for many of these negative teachings? And I know that sounds like outcome variables, super academic. But basically what we meant was if you believe certain things. How can we measure the harm it does or the good it does? Measure Of A Healthy Marriage Sheila: So for instance, if you believe women are obligated to give their husband it when they want it. We know that marital satisfaction goes down, l pain rates go up, and orgasm rates go down. If you believe you need to give your husband it or he’ll watch it, same thing. Marital satisfaction plummets, orgasm rates plummet. Same thing if you believe all men struggle with lust, same thing if you believe women have to be the gatekeepers. So all these things we know have negative outcomes in terms of marital and satisfaction. But, and here’s the crucial but, they also have slightly higher frequency rates. Not like a huge amount. We’re not talking like six times a week versus once a month. We’re talking like, you know, 2.8 times a week instead of 2.3. And so the question we had was, does this mean that Evangelical leader’s main measure of a healthy life is how often they have it? Rather than how good the it is and how good the marriage is? And we would argue that, yeah, that’s what it means. They think frequency is everything. Anne: Mm, so in some of the incorrect interpretations of marriage bible references religious they think anything that would decrease frequency is some kind of threat. Sheila: Yes, healthier marriages tend to lead to happier people, but that’s not considered a viable alternative. You and I were talking before we started recording about how he said that even though we shouldn’t feel obligated to have it with our spouses, we need to realize that it should be a sacrifice. At least some of the time, and you should have to give it, even if you don’t want to. Obligation Intimacy: A Harmful Message of Incorrect Interpretations of Scripture Sheila: And so it’s like he’s saying on the one hand that obligation intercourse is bad. But then, on the other hand, he’s saying to women. In the same way that you get up in the middle of the night and feed your newborn, even with your sore nipples and everything. So, we need to consider the needs of the other person. And so it’s like he just can’t get rid of this obligation message. And I think it comes down to the fact that many evangelical pastors, leaders, and probably many people in the wider culture just believe women don’t like it. That if you give them the choice, they won’t have it. That women are not intimate beings. They truly believe that. And so the only way to get women to have it is to tell them they have to. And that’s what we’re arguing against. We’re trying to set the record straight and say, obligation intimacy doesn’t feel good. That’s not what you want. If you treat your wife like she has to give you it, you will wreck it. Anne: Yeah. Sheila: Can I tell you the story about Bob? Anne: Tell me the Bob story. What about Bob? Sheila: What about Bob? Okay, his real name is not Bob. I like that name. But anyway, he was a commenter on my blog. And he told me his story. So they’ve been married for 40 years, so I assume he’s in his sixties. And he said, when they first got married, they would have it several times a week, and she always enjoyed it. The Story Of Bob: A Lesson in Intimacy Sheila: Like he always made sure she came to orgasm. But then he would say things like, I don’t understand why we don’t do this more often. It’s so great. You like it so much. Why don’t we do it more often? He constantly said this to her. And over a series of years, she just started wanting it less and less. She still has an orgasm, but she has it maybe once every six weeks. And he says, you know, I would be glad to give up my orgasm so that I can give her pleasure, but she won’t let me. She doesn’t understand that it is how I feel intimate. And I’m reading this and I’m thinking, Okay, so she’s having it several times a week with you, and she’s having a good time, and she’s reaching orgasm, and what do you do? You keep telling her that what she’s doing is wrong and not good enough. And then you tell her that you don’t feel intimate with her unless she’s having it with you. So that means that all the times she feels like she’s connecting with you her way, don’t register with you. And so eventually she’s going to feel really cheap, and she’s going to stop wanting to have it. This woman simply didn’t want it as often. It wasn’t that she didn’t want it. It wasn’t that she didn’t like it. She just didn’t want it as often. He treated that like a problem, and it created a problem. Intimacy and Emotional Health: A Crucial Connection Anne: So, this is interesting, because many abusive men say the same thing. They say, there’s no problem with me using it. And she’s saying it’s a problem, and then it makes it a problem. The way they interpret these marriage bible references tends to say to women is that you don’t matter as much as I do. If you’re trying to make it a problem, it’s not really a problem. And if I’m trying to make it a problem, it’s for sure a problem. And the one who decides is the man. Whatever his opinion is about it, either way, is just more valid than yours. Sheila: Yeah, absolutely, like we said earlier, what is the goal? If the goal is emotional health, then what we want is an emotionally healthy relationship. And an emotionally healthy relationship means you connect not just sexually, but also in other ways. And what often happens today is that many men do not feel any drive for any kind of emotional intimacy. So they’ll play video games for eight hours a day, and then they’ll want it. Like, one of my pet peeves is calling sex intimacy. It is not intimacy. Like, they’re not synonyms. And yet we treat them like they’re synonyms. One of the most depersonalizing, dehumanizing, unintimate things is to have it with someone who is not there with you. Who is fantasizing about someone else, who is obviously not thinking about you. Who is using you. That is the opposite of intimacy. Anne: I have been on very few dates, um, since my divorce, but I did go on a date the other night. A Personal Story: Prioritizing Emotional Health Anne: And in the course of the date, I said to him, you know, I don’t care if I ever have it. I’m good with it either way. Like it doesn’t matter to me. If I never have it again, it’s fine. And, apparently, you’re not supposed to say this on a date, Sheila. And he spent the rest of the night mansplaining to me how this was not a way to talk to a man on a date. I was going to have a marketing problem, he said. And I said, well, if I’m not selling anything, then I don’t have a marketing problem. So I don’t see what the problem is, because I don’t care what you think about me having it or not. Anyway, it was a very interesting exchange, and the more I thought about it. The more I thought, I’m will say this on every first date. Because it does NOT motivate me at all. I want to be motivated by an intimate emotional relationship, and then if that leads to an intimate relationship sometime in the future, fine. But like it is not my motivation. But it also led me to think that it is this guy’s motivation. And that’s not what I’m looking for. Sheila: You know, John Gottman said something interesting in his book, Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work. He said he believes the next great stage in human development. The next big breakthrough we’re going to make, is men’s emotional health. That right now men as a whole, and this isn’t me man bashing. This is just simply look at the stats. If you measure relative emotional health, emotional maturity, that sort of thing, women outscore men almost universally. Women Tend To Outscore Men Sheila: And by universally, I don’t mean every woman. I mean, throughout classes, throughout ages, like different age, different demographic groups, women tend to do better than men. Now, obviously there are some men who are extremely emotionally healthy, and there are some women who are not emotionally healthy. But just on the whole, in these different segments, women tend to outscore men. And he thinks this is what’s changing. And I actually believe it. If you look at the way millennial dads parent, and increasingly Gen Z. I’m like how Gen Z dads, the young ones parent, are much more emotionally available. And they’re much more engaged with their kids. You know, this is something that we’re trying to bring home, is that it does not replace intimacy. And often the reason someone has this insatiable drive, they can never get enough. It’s not actually their drive. If they feel insecure, they need it to make them feel better. If they feel bored, they need it to make them feel better. And If they’re worried about rejection or stress, they need it. And they’re not turning to it because they have this urge to feel close to you. Anne: Well, and in that case, the partner is just being used to feel better about themselves. So it makes her feel more isolated, more and more used. It can create more and more feelings of resentment and sadness if he’s just thinking about an orgasm. He’s not going to care that it’s miserable for her. Sheila: Right. And again, it’s only been more recently that I’ve started listening. That I’ve understood how wrong a lot of our understanding of it is. Changing Beliefs Sheila: Because you know, when I got married 30 years ago, I believed he needed it to feel love. Because that’s what everyone told me. So if he said I just feel like we never connect, I would feel so guilty. I would feel like he is experiencing a kind of rejection that I will never understand. I’m incapable of understanding how much he needs this because he’s a man and I can’t understand as a woman what a man goes through. And so no matter what I’m experiencing, what he’s experiencing must be worse. Because this is what we’re told, and I played a part in teaching some of that. I did say some of these things. Um, it’s funny. My publisher contracted with my husband and me to write The Good Guy’s Guide to Great, because they wanted a companion book. And we were all for that, because we just wanted to tell men how to do this in a healthy way. But I begged them to let me rewrite The Good Girl’s Guide. And it was a bit of a fight because it was still selling really well. It’s always sold well since it came out. But I was like, I can’t sell it in all good conscience. Now that I’ve listened to people with that survey of 20, 000, I’ve changed the way I think about libido. The way I think about frequency, and the way I think about intimacy. So they went up several committees, and finally let me rewrite it. And I didn’t get paid anything to do it. I wrote an entirely new book, but I think we’re getting healthier. The Importance of Setting Boundaries Sheila: Like the discussions, so encouraged me that have been happening. And I feel like you and I are on different sides of the same discussion. Like how do we get to what is healthy, and how do we acknowledge what is harmful and deal with it appropriately? Anne: Yeah, I remember when I recognized my life was unhealthy, so I stopped initiating it. But I was the one who initiated it all the time. And I told my husband at the time, we’re now divorced, I’m not going to initiate anymore. I need to figure myself out, I’m not blaming this on you. And then he never initiated. There was nothing. He never talked about it. He never said anything. It was like it didn’t exist. And I thought, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait. I’ve been initiating it for seven years, and then I say, hmm, I’ve got to figure some things out. I’m not having a good time anymore. You go ahead if you want, and he never initiated it. So if I tell people that timeline, you could probably say she stopped initiating, they stopped having it. And then within six months he was arrested, and then they got divorced. So was it my fault for stopping it? Many women might think this, and they’re afraid to set boundaries in marriage with their husband. They’re afraid to say, wait, whoa, I have some needs here. I don’t feel safe. I’m going to step back. They’re afraid of this happening. They don’t want their marriages to fall apart. Their marriages are top priority. Abuse vs. Divorce: Understanding The Real Problem Anne: To these women, I want to say, if you take this route and end up divorced like me. I do not want you to get from my story. Don’t have it with your husband equals divorce, and it’s your fault. Or that you’ve done something wrong. Because the problem in my case was that I was not enjoying it because I was being abused. And I stopped having it for good reason, and it was healthy for me to do so. Then I ended up divorced from my abusive spouse. Which is not a bad thing. Even though I don’t necessarily believe in divorce, I certainly don’t believe in being abused. So, many people are like, divorce is the cause of all these problems or whatever. And I’m like, actually abuse is the cause. Like, abuse is the problem. Abuse is the thing that is hurting you. So, just get clear about what is causing the problems. It’s not necessarily you deciding, wait a minute. This isn’t fun for me. Sheila: Well, I’ve got two thoughts on that. The first is, again, what is the goal? Things aren’t magically going to get better, because you keep having it and you keep trying to be nicer. If your goal is emotional health, then doing things which protect your emotional health will be helpful in the long run. And, you know, by saying, I’m not going to initiate anymore, what you did was allow a light to be shone in an area where it needed to be shone. because we’re still connecting. Making Health, Peace & Safety A Priority Sheila: But when you stop having it, it lays bare all these other things. And so I don’t think anyone should do that lightly. But if having it causes me emotional unhealth, that needs to be addressed. You need to protect your emotional health. And when you do that, the health of every other part of your relationship is more likely to be evident. Anne: My listeners are married to abusive men. So when we’re talking about my particular skills. I don’t want to say that. But when I talk about these listeners, I think their main concern is setting boundaries and being afraid of things getting worse. And it’s true. When you have an abuser and start setting boundaries, things get worse before they get better. And I understand that concern. But I always say if you make health, peace, and safety your priority, you will make your way through the fog. It is a scary road, because you’ve got clergy and people around you, accusing you. What? You didn’t have it with your husband? Like that’s a mortal sin. And you might get accused of being abusive. In fact, I’d say most of our listeners have been accused of being abusers themselves. But the thing to consider is, do I want a life of peace? And you’re never going to know what’s possible until you start making your way toward that. And it might mean you end up divorced, and it might mean you can have a healthy relationship with your husband. That you’ve never had before. Maybe he’ll step up to the plate. We don’t know these things until we start making our way. The Role Of Prayer In Finding Peace Anne: And I think it’s interesting that all the pressure is on the woman to not start down that road, rather than being on the man. Sheila: And I think there’s a reason for that. There’s a reason why the pressure is on the woman. And that’s because she’s actually invested in saving the marriage. He doesn’t want to save the marriage. He just wants someone to control. The wife often wants to save the marriage. And so she can be convinced to change. They can’t convince him to change, and I think about all the marriage books and bible references that Christian women read desperate to find the formula to change their husband. They read Power of a Praying Wife, and they pray so hard. I really had a problem with some of these Christian interpretations, because it had a whole list of husbands that can be changed through prayer. And abusiveness was one of the things that you could pray against. And it’s like, no, honey, if he’s abusive, you don’t just pray against it. You get help. And I would just say to desperate women. I know you want to save your marriage. I know you want things to be better, but please don’t think prayer is the answer. Prayer is the answer to helping you find peace and health. Yes, but God doesn’t force someone else to change. It gives us all free will. You can’t pray your husband to health. God won’t force your husband to change. What God can do, I think, is give you strength, fortitude, wisdom, insight, friends and support. And all kinds of stuff to navigate these roads that are ahead of you. Pray For Deliverance Sheila: But I think so often we’re searching for that magic formula. That magic prayer, that magic way to behave that’s going to change everything. And it just isn’t there. So ultimately, we have to decide, what does emotional health look like for me? And where am I likely to find it? That’s the scary thing. I know, but I hope we don’t add guilt to the mix where you feel like it’s a failure. If you start saying, no, I’m not going to initiate it anymore. You know, it doesn’t mean you’re a bad wife. Anne: A good wife sets the bar high for an emotionally healthy, happy marriage. And I’m going to make my way toward that. And if you want to do that, fine, if not, I’m on my way to health, regardless of what you’re going to do. That is what the world’s best wife would do. When it comes to praying. I always recommend women pray for deliverance. I think that’s the best thing to pray for. Because then God can metaphorically part the Red Sea, and you can walk through. It’s not going to be fun. You’re going to have a lot of opposition, but God can deliver you and make your way out. And in some women’s cases, the deliverance from the abuse may come in the form of their husband changing. It might, but we don’t know what the deliverance is going to look like. I do think deliverance is a prayer God can answer. Sheila: Exactly, I love that. That is so good. Encouragement For Women: Speak Up Sheila: And, as someone who talks to the other side of this whole issue. How do we get other religious leaders, Christian leaders and society leaders to listen? Because your audience has been crying out for years, and people aren’t listening. And I just want people to know that I’m trying to listen and want a healthy message to get out there. But as a little encouragement, your voices are strong. And I know it feels like everybody is against you. And if things fall apart, you’re going to be blamed, and that often is the case. But in the broader scheme of things, we are seeing people start to wake up to this stuff. So I just want to tell people who, maybe you’re on the other side of abuse. Like speak up, leave book reviews, leave comments on social media. Like let’s be loud, because I think our voices are making a difference. I really do. It might be that in your personal circle, no one’s listening, but in the wider circle, they are. And people often have an easier time listening to strangers than their sister, which is terrible. It shouldn’t be that way, but it’s true. And so there’s probably an abused woman out there praying for someone to get through to their pastor or best friend. You may not get through to your sister, but you might get through to someone else’s sister. And they might get through to your sister. Finding Emotional Health & Safety Sheila: So the more we speak up to the strangers, the more we help ourselves in a way. So just be encouraged. I think God does see you, and God’s doing an amazing thing. He’s shaking everything. I think He’s going to war for his daughters. Who have been mistreated, and so take heart and courage. We just want emotional health and safety for people. And if you’re not in that kind of community, then I hope you can find one. Because they are out there, even if they are hard to find, but they are out there. Again, the saddest part is that we’ve stolen God from people. Because when we tell women, God wants you to give your husband it when he wants it. God wants you to perform sexually, so he doesn’t watch pornography. We make God into our abuser, and we make God into the one who is coercing us. So I hope that as women go through the process of deconstructing all these messages. They will realize that was never God’s voice, and that that message hurt God too. Because he never, ever wanted you to feel that. Anne: Thank you so much, Sheila. I appreciate all your hard work and willingness to stand for the truth. Sheila: Thanks for having me. It’s always a pleasure.
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  3 Surprising Ways Your Husband Is Taking Advantage Of You 21.07.2026 29dk

  Women who feel, “my husband is taking advantage of me,” may often be confused by the damaging advice they receive when they go for help. And what you know right now may only be the tip of the iceberg. See If Your Husband is Taking Advantage of You: 3 Ways 1. IF HE USES YOUR TRUST TO HIDE WHAT’S REALLY HAPPENING Most women don’t enter marriage looking for problems. They enter it assuming he’s telling the truth, and if something feels off, there must be a harmless reason. So when he’s distant or irritable, you might think he’s stressed or he’s had a bad day. But what if that’s not the reason he’s stressed? Stay with me…You’ll see more about how this plays out in real time. 2. He LIEs TO YOU ABOUT HOW HE SPENDS HIS TIME OR MONEY  If your husband is taking advantage of you in this way, you’re not going to know, but it’s definitely going to feel like he’s taking advantage of you, because things are not adding up. If you need help figuring things out, join our Betrayal Trauma Support Group online. Even if you don’t have all the details, patterns of secrecy + financial behavior + outside relationships are enough. 3. HE’S TRYING TO GET YOU TO DOUBT YOUR OWN INTUITION  If he’s saying things like, you’re overreacting or you’re imagining things, or he’s saying he didn’t say something he definitely said, he’s trying to take advantage of that conversation to manipulate you.  If you relate and think you might be experiencing emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test. In this transcript you’ll find the following points: Recognizing When a Husband Is Exploiting Trust If Your Husband Is Good At Hiding Evidence Confronting Him With Evidence of Taking Advantage The Impact on Children of His Exploitation Transcript: MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF ME Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Misha. Welcome, Misha. Misha: Hi. Thanks for having me. I have listened to the podcast. Hearing other people’s story is the reason I wanted to share my story. And be part of this community of very strong women who have experienced a lot of things, similar to what I’ve experienced. We were married six and a half years, when I found out my husband was cheating on me. I was sitting on the couch with my two children, and scrolling through my apps on my phone, and I found four NSA dating apps. NSA is no strings attached. Not just one, but four. And I didn’t know where they came from, because I saw them on my phone, not his. And then I realized that we have a family share plan that shows all the apps within the family share plan. If you toggle at the top, it shows the other devices and they were on his device. That’s what triggered my story, but it is so much more explosive than that. The things that I found out after was horrifying. I knew I needed to start teaching children how to set boundaries. WE WERE THE PERFECT FAMILY Anne: So that was what some women called D-Day. You realized something was amiss. Can we go back a little bit? How did you feel about him and how your relationship was before you found those apps? Misha: We were the perfect family. He was charming, well-liked in our community. He’s high ranking military. We had adopted twins from birth, who were two years old when I found out. It was like Prince Charming, and he was perfect. So I thought, looking back now, there were a lot of signs that it wasn’t. Anne: And you couldn’t have known. I think this is the thing people don’t understand. They might say you didn’t see the red flags, and I don’t think that’s the case. I think you see them, you just interpret them through the lens you have at the time. So if he’s grumpy, for example, you think, oh, he had a bad day. You don’t think he is having an affair. Misha: He showed a lot of signs of stress. But anytime I approached him about it, he was stressed out from work. He felt overwhelmed by work. And he needed space because of the job. It was always, it’s not you or the kids, it’s just me, and it’s just work. It was like my husband was grooming me. So I tried to give him more space and make sure to take care of the house, kids and everything. So he could come home and decompress or whatever he needed. SECRET APPS AND MISSING FUNDS: MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE Misha: He couldn’t talk to me about work. So I asked him if it was really affecting him that much, that he should find someone to talk to, that there are services for military. He decided to talk to the chaplain at one point, and then it was like everything magically was better. He seemed happier and more engaged with the kids and I after that. So I thought we were fine. But that was right before I found the apps. He had downloaded them about the same time he was feeling better. Once I found those apps, it triggered me to look for more. Since he was deployed during that time, I couldn’t even talk to him when I found those apps. Anne: That’s kind of a blessing actually. Misha: It actually was. Anne: Knowing that your husband is taking advantage of you, it was good that he couldn’t manipulate you more and lie to you more. You could just find more information that he couldn’t twist. Misha: Twist and turn and I found a whole nightmare. I went into his bank account and was looking for strange transactions, thinking I would find some dating thing going on, but if they’re NSA apps, they’re probably not that happening. So I searched through the bank statements and started finding thousands of dollars, wired out $31,000, wired out $15,000, wired out $3500 a check for $20,000. Anne: Whoa. FINDING EVIDENCE OF EXTORTION Misha: ATM withdrawals for almost $17,000. It was a lot. I was a stay at home mom and he was providing for us. Some transactions went to a place called digital forensics.com. I didn’t know what that was. So I looked it up and it was a digital forensics company that will basically cover up your digital tracks. I found emails from this digital forensics company. They were just some that were like screenshots of his WhatsApp, which I didn’t know he had WhatsApp. Then I scrolled through those emails and clicked on the attachment for one of them. And a brochure popped up that said sextortion onboarding. Anne: So is he extorted for videos or pictures of him out there doing sexual things? Or is he the one doing the extorting? What were you thinking at the time? Misha: I had to Google it to be sure I was correct, thinking that he did something of a sexual nature that someone was using to blackmail him. And the emails confirmed he is the one extorted. It was a lot of the same questions in my mind. Is it him? Is it somebody else? What’s going on here? But I still don’t have those answers. I don’t know what he did to get himself extorted, obviously. But I do know my husband is taking advantage of it. I CALLED A DIVORCE LAWYER Anne: One of the things I talk about quite a bit is knowing one thing is knowing everything. Knowing that he was extorted for sexual videos floating around there, or an affair or something. That’s all I need to know, because it tells me everything, even though I don’t have all the details or information. Misha: I didn’t wanna know from the start. It was enough to see that he did something of that nature that got him in this position, and I don’t need to know what it is. The amount of money gone, he obviously did something he was guilty of doing. The amount of money he spent to cover it up and get rid of it, whatever it is, was enough. After I found those emails, I immediately called a divorce lawyer. This was in like three days. Anne: Good for you. Misha: Yeah, from the time I found the bank statements to the emails was about three days, and I called the lawyer. Anne: Wow, that is so brave. You were really smart about it. ‘Cause I did this, and so many of us do that. We want to talk to them or try to work it out or something, and it just gets us in deeper, so that’s amazing. Had you guys ever done couple therapy or like pornography, addiction recovery, or had you ever seen anything like that before you found those apps on the phone? Misha: I had caught him with pornography before, twice in our marriage. At times throughout the relationship he had stuff on his phone that was like pictures of himself being seductive in a mirror or something. I had no idea I was experiencing betrayal trauma in a relationship. MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE AND I CONFRONTED HIM Anne: Like thirst traps sort of-ish. Misha: Yes. I confronted him about those, and he was like, I was gonna send you those pictures. I just never got around to it. We just never were that way. He didn’t like me to send seductive pictures of myself to him. There was a time when I took my daughter one morning with me. He was taking our son to a playground, and have a Father’s Sunday. I came back to the house ’cause I forgot something and he hadn’t left yet. As I approached the house, the TV was blaring with cartoons, so I went in the front door and my son is sitting on the floor. He is about 18 months old by himself, with the TV as loud as could be. My husband is nowhere around. So I darted back to our bedroom, where I needed to get the thing I forgot. The door was cracked, and I could see him sitting on the end of the bed doing what you can only imagine. I thought, “my husband is taking advantage of me being gone.” I pushed the door open and confronted him. The door was open so my son could have walked in on him. I said, “Give me your phone.” And he was like, “It’s just porn, it’s just porn.” I was very angry about it. He didn’t really spend much time with the children anyways, and instead of taking his son to the park, he chose to do that instead. HE WAS VERY GOOD AT HIDING EVERYTHING Misha: I would say for the most part, he was very good at hiding everything. He’s military. He has top secret security clearance. And he knows how to hide things. He had a work cell phone that I couldn’t touch. When I searched his emails, nothing from those apps came up. You have to have an email to use those apps. We didn’t live together because of him deploying back and forth. He lived where he was stationed. And I lived back home in the Midwest. He would visit us after deployment, and then go back and forth. Anne: Mm-hmm. Misha: He was visiting us this one time for a short weekend before he was deploying again, and he was behaving very strangely. He looked disheveled, almost like a homeless person. It was very eerie when he was home, even my son was uncomfortable with him in the home. There was one night I was trying to put him to bed, and he was just aggressively not going to sleep, and he wouldn’t go to sleep till almost three o’clock in the morning. I never had those issues getting him to sleep. And so the next night after that, I asked my husband to leave and go to the gas station while I put them to bed. It took me about 15 minutes to get him sleep. I discovered later that my husband is taking advantage of that timeframe when he was there he was withdrawing from the ATM, which was two minutes from my house. HE GAVE MONEY TO THE EXTORTIONER Misha: It was like $200 transactions for those three days. Whatever the max withdrawal, you can withdraw for your limit. I totaled nearly $7,000 cash, and he drove to visit us. He had to hide the cash in my house, and then drove halfway across the country with it to give it to whoever was extorting him. I asked him later. Did you give cash to someone? And he said yes. It was confusing. Because after I filed for divorce, I talked to my mother about what happened. She knew a military veteran. She told him a little bit about what was going on. He told her that if I didn’t report him to the military, I would be found complicit and that they could take my children from me. So I called the commander’s wife and asked her to tell me who to call for this. And she was like, “Your husband? No, it has to be somebody else. Maybe it was one of his guys. He was helping with an extortion case. There’s no way it’s your husband. He loves you. He talks about you all the time. And the kids, there’s no way.” And I said, “It is him.” Anne: He couldn’t very well show his true self to his commander and wife. The person they would trust and think is a good guy would be a family man. So that’s the face he would show them. Your husband is taking advantage of you and them. MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF HIS POSITION AND MILITARY TRAINING Misha: Exactly. He made a good show for sure. She referred me to the command, and then the command referred me to NCIS. I gave NCIS all the information I had. And I said, I just wanna know that my kids and I are safe. At the end of his digital forensics investigation into his extortion, there was an encrypted file saying your case has been closed. Obviously, I couldn’t see what was in the encrypted file. But I sent that to NCIS. They basically told me we were safe, and there was no other information they could give me. And that it was just an online scam. But I don’t see giving someone cash for an online scam. Anne: Yeah, if it was a scam, he wouldn’t have been so scared by it. Misha: Yeah, they basically were like, “Yep, this happens all the time.” Anne: Really. Misha: I’m like, “That’s horrible to hear, and why are you allowing it?” Anne: And also, What? Especially the military, you would think they would be worried about officers being extorted. Maybe by people from other countries. Misha: Exactly. Anne: It’s really alarming that your husband is taking advantage of his position. Misha: He gave trainings himself on this, how not to mess around to get extorted and blackmailed. Like my husband gave the trainings to his sailors on this, and this happens all the time. THEY SAID HE WAS THE VICTIM Anne: Well, and then the military doesn’t think, wait a minute, he for sure knows we’ve gotta do something about this guy. He is probably pretty dangerous. They just are like, eh, whatever, wow. Misha: No, they said, “He is the victim.” Anne: Wow! Okay. Misha: He’s the victim, and I was like, oh, I think he is actually the perpetrator of his own extortion. I don’t think he’s a victim of extortion. If he did something someone can use to extort him, that’s not a victim. Especially if it was a sexual nature outside your marriage. Anne: There are all kinds of victims in this story. Number one, you and your children, but then also perhaps the women your husband is taking advantage of, the women he’s paying money to exploit, that he’s coercing them with cash. We can imagine all the other women who maybe he’s lying to them. Misha: We don’t have to imagine it. I found it all. We had the same phone bill for six and a half years. I went back through the phone bills. This was going on way before we had children. It was going on our entire relationship. He was regularly in contact with sex workers. I went through phone number after phone number. He had hundreds and hundreds of text messages from all kinds of different numbers throughout the phone bill, and they led to pornography sites and escort sites. AUTHORITIES WOULDN’T DO ANYTHING UNLESS HE WAS VIOLENT Anne: Did you give the military that as well? And not that you should have, I’m just curious. Misha: They didn’t care. I reported him for potential prostitution. I did an entire report on all of it. Anne: They didn’t care that your husband is taking advantage of you and possibly endangering you and your children? Misha: They wouldn’t do anything unless he was violent towards me. Anne: Oh, that’s the insane thing about our current culture, I guess. He is, by all accounts, an abusive man on so many levels. Breaking the law because it’s illegal to coerce women with money. It’s often literal sex trafficking. Because the definition of sex trafficking is the exchange of money for it essentially. This is serious stuff. It’s criminal, but even if it wasn’t criminal, it’s abusive. But they’re like, it’s no big deal. If the people tasked with protecting us don’t know what abuse is, that’s a problem. Misha: Absolutely. I mean, the extent of information I found is just appalling. It makes him a very deviant person in my mind. After I was in contact with the NCIS investigators and everything, and they were like, “Yeah, thanks. We don’t care.” They brought him home within 24 hours of that phone call. Anne: So then you’re not protected. That was scary too. Misha: I said, can you not bring him home? They said, no, you guys need to talk. Anne: What? MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE AND HE CLAIMS ADDICTION Misha: I don’t wanna talk to him. Yet they made me talk to him. Anne: But that only benefits him and not you. Misha: Yeah, they said he needs to explain himself to me. No, I don’t need an explanation. He lied to me more. He claims sex addiction. Immediately after he came home. He said, “Something happened really bad, I’ve reported myself.” He didn’t know that I was the one who reported him. Anne: Oh. Misha: I said, “No, you are home because I reported you.” And he goes, “What? What do you mean you reported me?” “I reported you, that is why they took you off the ship.” And I said, “So you can stop lying now. I know everything.” And then he just continued to lie. Anne: Mm-hmm. Misha: I know my husband is taking advantage of sex workers. He said he never had sex with any other women, so he didn’t technically cheat. Anne: But we know that’s not true. Misha: He did confirm paying for erotic massage. He said, “No sex or masturbation during the massage.” Anne: Didn’t you witness him doing that, to pornography? Misha: Yeah. Anne: Yeah, he’s just lying. Wow, okay. HE DIDN’T WANT TO GET A DIVORCE Misha: Well, this is the thing I said, “Where did you find an erotic massage?” Like, I wouldn’t even know where to find that. And he’s like, “Oh, it was an ad on a pornography site.” Anne: Also, what is the point of an erotic massage? If you don’t have sex? Just get a regular massage. Misha: Yeah. I was like, “You responded to an ad on a pornography site.” I said, “Where was it located?” And he said, “Someone’s private apartment.” Like, what are you doing? Going to a strange person’s apartment for that? And he did it more than once. Anne: Well, and a lot of these places will video without the person’s consent, and then upload it onto websites themselves. So then they have evidence of him, and that can be downloaded and uploaded repeatedly. Victims who are coerced or trafficked can never get the evidence of their sexual assault off the internet. In his case, he participated in it. That will be uploaded and downloaded. He already knew that, if that’s the class he taught in the military. Misha: Yeah, he knows, he doesn’t care. Anne: Did he react to you filing for divorce? Misha: He didn’t wanna get divorced, just stay separated. And I was like, absolutely not. I do not wanna be tied to you in any way. My husband is taking advantage of the courts. It took almost two years to get the divorce over with. I was trying to take the kids from him. Anne: He couldn’t take care of them ’cause he was always deployed, like that’s crazy. HE GOT A PROMOTION A MONTH AFTER Misha: He even told me, “I’ll give you sole custody,” at one point. And I’m like, “Okay, thanks. Sign the papers.” I mean there were so many layers of the trauma process. He wouldn’t do it. He told me he had to give the extorters the money, because they threatened his wife and kids. I wouldn’t let him see the kids until he had proof of therapy of some kind. The military didn’t do anything. There was no punishment that I know of. He actually got a promotion to commander a month after this. I’m like my husband is taking advantage of me and our kids and they don’t care. Anne: That happened with my ex too, like not with his job, but with our church. Basically, I let them know, and then, like two weeks later, he had a promotion. I was like, what? Misha: Doesn’t make sense. So he’s like, “I’m not dating anyone. I’m not doing any of that anymore. I’m recovered, I’m in SA I went to therapy.” And my lawyers and I agreed he could have supervised visits with the children, and I had to supervise it. Because he wouldn’t pay for social worker, of course, he wanted to make me watch him play with our children. it was very uncomfortable to supervise those visits. One of the worst was Christmas. He came in town and we decided to do Christmas at our house. His parents were gonna come over, we were gonna cook a small dinner and try to have a good holiday for the kids. He was cooking in the kitchen, putting together green bean casserole, and the kids and I were in the living room. t was very uncomfortable to supervise those visits. One of the worst was Christmas. MY HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE OF AND ENDANGERING OUR CHILDREN Misha: i He came in town and we decided to do Christmas at our house. His parents were gonna come over, we were gonna cook a small dinner and try to have a good holiday for the kids. He was cooking in the kitchen, putting together green bean casserole, and the kids and I were in the living room. He gets done with that and comes in the living room. And I got up and left and went in the kitchen. Because I couldn’t tolerate being in the same room as him. And I noticed that he left his phone on the counter open and unlocked, which had never happened before. His phone was always face down and locked, and not out of his sight. And again, it’s hundreds of text messages, FaceTimes from other women, and their names are like Angelica Rose, Ruby Bee. Names that sound like an alias. So I quickly scrolled through a few of them. There were three that I remember specifically. They were inappropriate adult conversations, but among those feeds, I found pictures of my children. Anne: It’s inappropriate to send people involved in trafficking pictures of children. Misha: Yes, and he also said their names. “That he couldn’t wait to go back to their location and see them for Christmas.” After he was blackmailed, extorted. He continues to communicate with these people. And he’s also sending pictures of my children, their location, and where he will be. And when I took the phone, I shoved it in his face, and I said, “Get out of my house.” Anne: Yeah, your husband is taking advantage of your children, too. Misha: And he’s like, “We’re not together anymore. I can date whoever I want.” I WAS EVEN MORE WORRIED FOR MY CHILDREN Misha: And I reported it to the Navy, and they said, “As long as those pictures weren’t inappropriate, there’s nothing we’ll do.” Anne: Well, at the very least, not have custody. Misha: Nope. The lawyer said that there’s nothing. Anne: It doesn’t make a difference. Misha: It doesn’t matter. Anne: Why does everyone talk about how they hate child abuse, but they won’t stop abusers? But this guy, even though there’s all this evidence of emotional and psychological abuse, abuse of other human beings, and I’m talking about the women he’s exploiting by coercing them with cash, that’s who does the abusing. This is who they are. And did he physically sexually abuse your kids? Who knows? Maybe you know, but that’s the type of person who would, they’re not parent material. Misha: Exactly what I was terrified of, because they’re adopted. And I know that people who do that don’t even care if they’re biologically related. So I was even more worried for my children. I lived near his family, and I had to get away from there before the divorce was over. He gets one week and a month and some holidays, and then half the summer. Anne: I have found the Living Free Workshop helps with everything. The message strategies you’ll see when you take it. If they have nothing to get from you and your kids, the current working theory is they just leave you alone forever, not taking the one weekend a month, or not taking the summer. THERE IS SO MUCH MORE GOING ON BESIDES WHAT I KNOW Anne: If there’s a woman out there listening who is wondering, is this really serious? Is this podcast actually for me? I mean, he’s only looked at pornography a few times. Or he only had that one affair or something like that. What would you share with her? Misha: When all this happened, the only person I really speak to is my sister. She called me immediately, and said, “I’m so sorry.” And over those next two or three days, as I found things, I shared them with her. And she told her husband what happened, and he told her, “She has to go, it doesn’t matter how small it is, most of the time it is just the tip of the iceberg. And there is so much more there that you may never even know and don’t wanna know.” He was like, ” The best way to leave a narcissist husband is right away.” For me, I was ready to leave the moment I found the apps, but you don’t have to stay because you need more information or evidence. You just can leave because you want to. Anne: Many women, and I did this, so this makes sense. I thought that when I had the information that would help him change, so in my case, I knew something was wrong. And when he got arrested for spraining my fingers, I thought, now he’ll know. Proof doesn’t do anything to them. So you taking this to him, and he did say, oh, I’ll get addiction therapy, but that’s not how it would’ve turned out. He would’ve just lied to you better. So even thinking that maybe somehow having the proof will help them make a change is also such a trap. LYING IS THE PROBLEM WHEN YOUR HUSBAND IS TAKING ADVANTAGE Anne: I’m so grateful that your sister and brother-in-law helped you see through that. That’s great that you had such good support. Misha: I am the kind of person that I have to know. So while he’s telling me he’s not doing those things anymore, I’m continuing to dig. Finding things was just more confirmation that he was never going to stop lying, and that I should not allow him to convince me to even contemplate getting back together, stay separated, and I still catch him lying about things. Anne: I mean, why do they want to be married when they don’t want to be married? Misha: Oh, that was my thing. Anne: What do they think marriage is? Misha: If this is what you wanna do with your life, why would you have a wife and children, just be single? And I hate that you wanna participate in, you know, sex trafficking, but if you wanna be single and go no strings attached with everyone else, that’s your choice. But it wasn’t mine, and I didn’t get a choice. And now I’m like, “Am I over my ex the best way to know?” Well, I can look back at all the facts. Anne: Exactly. Why not just be like, this is who I am, this is what I wanna do. Do you wanna be married to me under these circumstances? This is the whole point. If they weren’t abusive, they would say, oh no, I really like paying women for sex. I’m gonna keep doing it. And maybe no one would arrest them. But at least we could be like, oh, I don’t wanna be married to a man who does that. So goodbye. I DIDN’T HAVE FREEDOM OF CHOICE Anne: The lying is the real problem. While I don’t support pornography or any abuse of women, whether through coercion or exploitation, at least then you’d clearly see that your husband taking advantage goes beyond what you may have realized. Misha: Exactly. It would give me freedom of choice. But I didn’t have that. I still don’t have it, ’cause he’s still lying. I just wish he didn’t have custody of my children. Anne: Yeah, hopefully I can check back in with you after you’ve learned the Living Free strategies and see how things are going in six months to a year from now, and see if it was helpful to you. Thank you so much for sharing today. I am so sorry you’re going through this. Your story will help women. I’m so grateful that you were willing to share. Misha: Thank you for having me on.
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  When Boundaries in Marriage Fail, Here’s Why It’s Not You 14.07.2026 20dk

  When trust has been broken, or when conflict keeps repeating in a relationship, many women begin searching for answers about boundaries in marriage. women need boundaries in marriage after broken trust They’re not looking to control anyone or to escalate the situation. Most are simply trying to create safety. Sometimes the question sounds like: How do I set boundaries in marriage when my husband is unfaithful? How do I set boundaries with my ex while we’re co-parenting? Is it even possible to set boundaries when my husband emotionally abuses me? When everything feels confusing, chaotic, or intimidating, it can be difficult to know where to begin. Anne shares one of the effective emotional safety strategies in her Clarity After Betrayal Workshop. “Ask yourself, ‘What is making me feel unsafe? What action can I take right now – today – to put proximity between myself and the harm?” Anne Blythe, Founder Of BTR.ORG SO, How Do I Set Boundaries In Marriage When Every Time I Try Things Just Get Worse?! Many of the women in the BTR community tried for years to set boundaries, only to experience further harm and discouragement. Often, well-meaning professionals teach boundaries in marriage as: If/Then Statements Ultimatums Statements of desires or values Unfortunately, these forms of communication don’t protect victims of emotional and psychological abuse. Instead, they often expose victims to further gaslighting, manipulation, and humiliation. 3 Steps to Establishing Effective Boundaries In Marriage You’ll know that your boundaries in marriage are effective when you’re experiencing greater emotional and psychological safety. So how do you set boundaries in an emotionally abusive relationship? Identify The Cause Of The Harm The first step in establishing effective safety boundaries in marriage is identifying the actual source of harm. Ask yourself: Do I feel emotionally safe in my home? What specifically makes me feel unsafe? When do I feel the least emotionally safe? When do I feel the most emotionally safe? If you want to go deeper, take my free emotional abuse test. You can’t create safety until you understand what is causing the harm. Step 2: Separate Yourself From the Harm After identifying the cause, ask yourself: What action can I take today to separate myself as much as possible from the harm? This is where true boundaries in marriage differ from what many therapists teach. Safety boundaries are not statements. They are actions. For some women, that action might look like: Closing a door Putting in headphones Blocking a phone number Limiting communication to email For others, it may mean: Physical separation Filing for divorce Reporting a crime Creating distance to observe safely The key question is not: Did I say the right words? The key question is:Has this boundary actually separated me from the harm? Step 3: Measure Whether the Boundaries In Marriage Are Working Effective boundaries in marriage are measurable. Are you experiencing: Less anxiety? Less chaos? More mental clarity? Physical calm? Emotional stability? If the answer is yes, your boundary is working. If the harm continues uninterrupted, it may not be a boundary — it may simply be a statement or a threat. Boundaries are not about controlling someone else’s behavior. They are about creating a protective barrier that actually protects you. Ask Yourself This Question: After you’ve identified the cause of the harm, ask yourself: What action can I take today to separate myself as much as possible from the harm? As Anne shares in this episode, for some women, this means simply closing a door, blocking a phone number, or putting in headphones. For others, it may mean separation, divorce, or reporting a crime. Transcript: How Do I Set Boundaries In Marriage? What You Need To Know Anne: It’s just me today. I’m going to talk about boundaries, because so many women are confused about how to set boundaries to be emotionally and psychologically safe. The reason so many women are confused about boundaries is because therapists and other “experts” teach women to set boundaries in a way that does not make sense. They basically say a boundary is stating what you will and won’t accept. And then they’ll victim blame you, and say, “If you haven’t told someone what you will and won’t accept, then it’s your fault.” Even though you already did tell him. So then, because the therapist tells you to, you say the thing you’ve already said. “I will not accept pornography in my home,” or “I will not be lied to,” or “I will not accept your continual emotional abuse.” And the therapist pats you on the back and says, “Good job.” You set a “boundary.” Because the therapist thinks, apparently once you say that, it’s supposed to solve some problems. Then, just to ensure it solves the problems, the therapist will encourage you to add a threat to it. So then, because the therapist is giving her these instructions, a woman will say, “if you use pornography again, then I won’t be intimate with you.” And that’s how they’ll teach you to “set boundaries.” And if that model works for you, shine on, keep using it. But most of our listeners and pretty much all the women who get services here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery are struggling. Because the way the therapist taught them to set boundaries isn’t working. and they’re wondering, what am I supposed to do? So many victims think they are the problem, because they can’t set boundaries. Introducing StrategIES FOR CLARITY AND EMOTIONAL SAFETY Anne: And I’m like, no, no, no. It’s not you. The way they taught you to set boundaries doesn’t work. So, if you relate, I’m going to teach you the strategy for how to set boundaries in marriage that makes a lot more sense. In the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, I explain in super duper detail how to do this. And today I’m just going to cover a few basics. So if you’re like, “Oh, this is good. I need more of this” enroll in the Clarity After Batrayal Workshop, where I teach these effective boundaries in a detailed and strategic way. Including examples for how to set effective thought boundaries, action boundaries, communication boundaries, and boundaries when you’re wondering how to recover after being cheated on. There are so many options. So the examples I share today are just a few of the tons of options you have when it comes to setting effective boundaries. And I outline more examples in the workshop. I’m going to use many metaphors throughout this whole episode to illustrate these points. Metaphor: Property Line & Trespassing Anne: Here’s a metaphor about how a woman would determine how to set boundaries and whether a boundary is effective. You know where your property line is. And your neighbor keeps coming onto your private property without your permission. So you build a fence. But he climbs over the fence. So then you write him a letter and you say, “Please stop climbing over my fence. Don’t enter my property without my permission.” But he keeps doing it. So then you set up a camera, and the camera records him climbing over the fence. And you write another letter and you say, I have evidence that you’re climbing over the fence. Please stop. But he doesn’t. So then you call the police and show them the footage. And they arrest him for trespassing. He makes bail. And that could be the end of it. But he has a good defense attorney, and not even the court system can make him stop. So then you evolve your boundaries more to keep trying to protect yourself from this person. But this guy just won’t stop. And you have had it, and you are ready to completely be done with this chaos in your life. So you decide to move to an apartment with a doorman, that doesn’t have a yard. You show the doorman a picture of what he looks like. You’ll never have to worry, because he won’t get into the building. Because he won’t get past the doorman. That’s how you can know if your boundary is effective. Has your boundary actually separated you from the harm? How Do I Set Boundaries In Marriage: Emotional & Psychological Abuse Anne: So I want to take you through how this might work with emotional and psychological abuse. Statements like, you cannot treat me this way. I will not allow this in my home, they are just statements. They cannot keep you safe, so they’re not a boundary. With a couple therapists, addiction recovery therapists, or non-BTR coaches, if you’re doing “boundary work.” Your abusive husband’s therapist may be telling you to list things you will and will not tolerate to give him. Then along with that list, next to those so-called boundaries, write a threat of what you’re going to do if he does it again. Let’s first talk about that list. It’s okay to list things that he does that make you feel unsafe. But it’s not strategic to give it to him. The Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, gives a detailed explanation with a bunch of reasons why it’s not recommended to give this list to anyone. Not even your husband, not even your abusive husband’s therapist. Although you can share it. Or create it with one of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery coaches, because she’s never going to talk to him. The Importance Of Emotional & Psychological Safety Anne: Having a safe person who was 100% on your side is so important. Because many women, when they come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, haven’t even thought about their emotional and psychological safety. Which is an important step for sure. The Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, will take you through that step-by-step. But that list in itself doesn’t create safety. The whole point is to be emotionally, psychologically, and physically safe, because emotional and psychological abuse feels like a punch to the gut. So how do I set effective boundaries in marriage? So think of it this way. There’s a man with a metaphorical club, and he’s hitting you on the head with this club. And you tell him to stop. He doesn’t stop. Then you tell him again, and he doesn’t. Ask any abuse victim, does his emotional and psychological abuse affect you physically? And they’re like, absolutely. I couldn’t get out of bed. I was so sick to my stomach and couldn’t eat. And I was so stressed that I got migraines. For most women, if they tell their emotionally abusive husband, stop making fun of me. Sometimes he’ll stop doing that thing. But we find that he’ll just do another emotionally abusive thing, something else. He’s like, “Okay, I couldn’t get through that way. I’ll try it a different way.” And then you’re just in the same situation where you’re constantly telling him, “Hey, be a basic, decent human being.” And he keeps finding ways to not meet the lowest bar. How Do I Set Boundaries In Marriage: Mental & Physical Actions for Safety Once you understand the safety issues, you can work from there to determine what actions you’re going to take. They can be mental actions. They can be physical actions. A boundary is something that keeps his abuse at a distance. So he can’t exploit you, oppress you or cause chaos in your life, even though he continues to try. There are many levels of effective boundaries in marriage. I detail a lot in the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop. It gives specific directions for “how do I set boundaries in marriage?” But for this episode, let’s take the classic example of blocking someone on your phone. Many women are triggered by text alerts or phone calls. It’s common for a woman who resists abuse and attempts to maintain her dignity. To respond to an abusive text by texting back. I’m not going to talk to you. Please stop texting me. Which still leaves the door open for him to write back and abuse you more. Instead, if you block their number, they can’t call or text you, and you don’t even know that they called or texted. There’s nothing they can do about it. Nothing says I’m not going to talk to you, like blocking them on your phone. And since we’re going for safety, not responding and blocking is the most effective strategy. If you have kids and have to communicate with him, that’s what the workshop is for. Understanding Different Levels Of Boundaries In Marriage Anne: If all this seems extreme, if you’re like, whoa. The Clarity After Betrayal Workshop, covers different levels of effective boundaries. It covers mental boundaries to keep your thoughts and emotions safe from his emotional and psychological abuse. So if you’re interested in different types of effective boundaries, the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop Workshop will take you through how to identify the harm. And then how to determine how do I set boundaries and which boundary will be effective for me in my situation. We want to get you to safety as quickly as possible. So that you can observe from an emotionally safe distance, from a psychologically safe distance. And see what type of character he really has. Because the way the therapists and so-called experts tell you to do it, I think is completely backwards. You don’t have to tell them, “If you use pornography, I won’t be intimate with you.” Because he already did it. He’s currently too unsafe to be with right now. And for your own safety, you don’t need to tell him why you don’t want to be with him. You don’t have to tell him that you feel unsafe. You don’t have to decide beforehand what you’ll do. Functioning, responsible, mature adults don’t need to be told, “If you lie to me, I feel unsafe. And so I’m going to set a boundary.” I hate it when my husband lies to me about small things. Mature adults don’t need that. A functioning adult and mature person would know that when you lie to someone, they’re going to get hurt. Effective boundaries are what you need to feel safe. They’re not what he needs. Boundaries In Marriage Help You To Be Safe Anne: So if you know what you need to feel emotionally and psychologically safe. You can move towards safety now without babysitting an adult man. Without communicating with an emotional abuser who’s going to weaponize your emotions against you. Women feel empowered when they realize they can take action and create a barrier. When they know how do I set boundaries. Whether emotional, mental, or physical, keep themselves away from the harm. Whether he understands what you’re doing. You don’t have to tell him why you’re doing it and you don’t have to explain it, nothing. You can just make your way to safety. Metaphor: How Would You Keep Yourself Safe If Someone Had Ebola? Anne: Let’s say your husband has late stage Ebola. He has blood dripping out of his eyes. He’s coughing up blood. And because you’re resisting Ebola, right? This seems dangerous. You’re like, we need help. Let’s go to couple therapy. So you both get into the car and drive to couple therapy. And the therapist says to you, “Make a list of all the diseases you don’t want to get. Because you can’t expect him to not give you a disease. Unless you’ve communicated that with him.” In the meantime, the therapist is handing your husband Kleenex after Kleenex, so the blood doesn’t drip down your husband’s face and onto the therapist’s couch. And so you write. “I don’t want to get Ebola. I don’t want to get an STD.” You write all the diseases you don’t want to get. Then your therapist says to your husband, “Okay. She doesn’t want Ebola.” As if he didn’t know this before, a functioning adult man should know that no one wants to get Ebola. Apparently, the therapist thinks he’s a total imbecile. Which he’s not, he knows people don’t want to get Ebola. But he’s manipulating the therapist, and the therapist somehow falls for it, as if Chuck has never heard anywhere that people don’t want to get Ebola. The therapist says, okay. She doesn’t want Ebola. So next time you get Ebola, she’s going to, and the therapist pauses and looks at you, like, “What are you going to do?” You think about it and you say, “Oh, okay, if you get Ebola again, I’m not going to have sleep with you.” Continuing With Ebola Metaphor Anne: The therapist nods and says, “Okay, this will take time to heal from Ebola. But it’s possible. Remember, your husband’s not the enemy. The Ebola is the enemy. I know you can beat this if you love and support each other.” After the therapy appointment, you both get in the car. and drive home. What’s going to happen to you? You’re going to get Ebola. You’ve been in an enclosed space with someone who’s highly contagious. So an effective boundary would be that you never ever are in an enclosed space with someone with Ebola. You’re not going to even drive them to the hospital, because you would be in the same car with them. It’s just too dangerous. You’re going to immediately distance yourself from someone with late stage Ebola. If they want help healing from Ebola, they can call 911 and get themselves to the hospital. All you need to do is keep your distance until he’s 100% better, with absolutely no Ebola symptoms whatsoever. And I’m going to keep on with this metaphor. Let’s pretend you can get Ebola through phone calls and texts, and he knows that. So he’s in the hospital, but he’s texting you and calling you and FaceTiming you. And that’s putting you at risk for Ebola. Which again, he knows, but he doesn’t care. Creating A Protective Barrier That Actually Keeps You Safe Anne: You might be like, if a text comes through, it will have Ebola germs on it. I need to keep myself safe. I am blocking him on my phone. You don’t need to tell him that your goal is not to get Ebola, because that’s obvious. Normal adults know that if they have Ebola, they need to isolate themselves until they have no symptoms. Since he can emotionally and psychologically abuse you through talking to you, phone calls, texts, and communication. So, when you think about boundaries, when anybody says you need boundaries, the effective way to set boundaries is to create a protective barrier that actually keeps you safe from the harm. Like a tornado shelter. You don’t have to tell the tornado that you’re getting in the shelter. You just get in the shelter. Or like a lifeboat in shark infested waters. You don’t have to tell the sharks why you’re getting in the lifeboat. You just get in the lifeboat. All right, enough of the metaphors. Real-Life Example: When Carol Set Boundaries In Marriage Anne: Now let’s talk about actual stories that illustrate this, one woman in our community. I’ll call her Carol. Before she found Betrayal Trauma Recovery, she was resisting his emotional and psychological abuse and his coercion the best way she knew how. She resisted his abuse by “setting a boundary” that her husband needed to go to pornography addiction recovery therapy or she would move out. He found himself a therapist, but her husband seemed like he was getting worse. Carol again, resisting the abuse, decided to go to one of the appointments so she could explain the true situation to the therapist. When she went, Carol observed that the therapist her husband chose was a young, beautiful woman. Who seemed friendly with her husband. And thought her husband was insightful and mature. She was kind of enamored with him. Carol was super alarmed, so in an effort to resist abuse, she set another “boundary.” She said, “You have to find an addiction recovery therapist, a certified CSAT who is male.” So her husband found himself a male therapist.” She also considered 12 step for wives of addicts. But things continued to be bad for Carol. The entire time this was happening, she was exposed to his emotional and psychological abuse. Even though she was resisting abuse and doing the best she could. Those boundaries that she set that he needed to go to therapy. And then the second one that he needed a male therapist didn’t do anything to protect her from his abuse. When she found Betrayal Trauma Recovery, she was so traumatized and exhausted. She enrolled in the Workshop, and started implementing the effective boundary strategies she learned. Real-Life Example: When Olivia Set Boundaries In Marriage Anne: And started to create distance between herself and his emotional and psychological abuse. So she wasn’t subjected to the harm while she observed to see what he was going to do. Another one of our community members, who I’ll call Olivia, was going through a divorce. And with every child exchange her soon to be ex was writing crazy messages, changing up the exchange times, just causing absolute chaos. The strategies laid the foundation for her to know what he was trying to do. And then how to combat that with strategic communication. And then worked with a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coach to implement these strategies. She knew how to set boundaries, and was able to set effective boundaries so that his chaos couldn’t touch her anymore. It was amazing. Real-Life Example: When Elise Set Boundaries In Marriage Anne: Another one of our community members, who I’ll call Elise, attended Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions when she found out her husband had been lying about his recovery from pornography addiction. He had told her that he was sober. But then she found out that he’d been using pornography almost daily since he started 12 step a year earlier. Because she done the workshop, she knew exactly how to set boundaries. With the help of one of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coaches in Individual Sessions, she processed what had happened, and thought about what actions she could take to actually separate herself from his emotional and psychological abuse without talking to him. In Elise’s case, she decided to gather her kids and her stuff. She got a burner phone, so he couldn’t track her location, and left her phone and went to her mom’s house. She said, “I was finally able to think straight without manipulation, 24/7.” He called my mom and asked if I was there. I told her to tell him the truth. So she said, “Yeah, she’s here, but she doesn’t feel like talking.” She’ll reach out when she feels better. Elise was able to stop long term affects from emotional abuse from her husband. And this helped her get in touch with her intuition. Elise said, “I’m learning how to trust myself again. It’s a miracle what I can see when I’m not blinded by his manipulation and chaos.” Let Me Know How You Have Set Boundaries In Marriage Anne: We have an awesome illustrated video that gives an example of how to set boundaries that does not involve blocking him on your phone or going to your mom’s house with a burner phone. Because at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we think you can set effective boundaries in any way that feels comfortable to you. So you know, how do I set boundaries. If you have questions about boundaries, you can ask them at the bottom of the transcription, in the comments, and I’ll respond. You can also comment about your experience. Have you tried to set boundaries the way the therapist or so-called experts recommend? Did it work for you? Alternatively, have you tried implementing the strategy to set effective boundaries I teach in the Clarity After Betrayal Workshop? I’m anxious to hear your thoughts.
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  Here’s What to Know Before “Affordable Relationship Counseling Near Me” 07.07.2026 31dk

  If you’ve searched for “affordable relationship counseling near me,” it’s important to know these five things before you schedule an appointment. FIVE THINGS TO KNOW BEFORE SCHEDULING AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME 1. A RELATIONSHIP COUNSELOR PROBABLY WON’T TELL YOU THEY CAN’T HELP YOU Most relationship therapists genuinely want to help, and they believe they have the right training and tools to help you. If helping couples overcome issues is their business and livelihood, it’s natural they don’t want to turn people away. However, many relationship counselors don’t really understand how emotional abuse works and how to screen for it. No matter what they do to help you, it will not help, and that lack of clarity can keep you in harm’s way longer, which benefits the counselor and the abuser…not you. So it’s really important to learn about emotional abuse first. 2. A RELATIONSHIP COUNSELOR WON’T TAKE SIDES, EVEN IF ONLY ONE PERSON IS THE PROBLEM A core part of relationship counseling ethics is that the counselor is not supposed to take sides. And that makes sense. But if your husband is abusive then it’s unethical to treat this as a couple problem when it’s not.  Even if the therapist says, “This is emotional abuse and I can still help you.” That’s not a thing. Because if he’s lying, he’s going to use those couple sessions to continue to lie and manipulate. 3. TALK THERAPY WON’T HELP IF HE HAS A HISTORY OF LYING OR MANIPULATION If your husband is lying, deflecting, or rewriting reality then, therapy is just gonna be more of that. There’s no way to convince somebody not to lie and manipulate, and you won’t know they’re doing it. Stay to the end—I’ll show you what the women in our community say they wish they’d known sooner. 4. MANY, MANY WOMEN HAVE BEEN HARMED BY “AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME” After more than a decade of doing this work and hearing from hundreds of women who started by searching “affordable relationship counseling near me” or were referred by a friend, a clear pattern shows up. Many, many women have been extremely harmed by couples therapists who did not know that they witnessed emotional abuse inside their offices. In some cases, what the women shared in sessions was later used against them at home or in court. 5. PROGRESS CAN BE MEASURED BY YOUR FEELINGS, NOT BY HIS CHANGED BEHAVIOR  Therapists rely on what they’re witnessing inside of that session. So if your husband says he’s improving, if he says he gets it, if he says he’s sorry, then the therapist is like, “Look, he’s sorry.” They can’t witness his behavior over time, like you do at home. So you know more about this than they do, and you can trust your instincts about it. To find out if your husband is using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse, take my free emotional abuse test. In this interview, Aliya shares what it looked like when the “expert” she trusted blurred lines in ways that felt increasingly difficult to make sense of. TRANSCRIPT: ONE WOMAN’S STORY OF UNETHICAL AFFORDABELE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME Anne: We have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Aliya. A so-called domestic abuse expert exploited her. Welcome, Aliya. Aliya: Thank you. Anne: Let’s start with how you met him. Aliya: I met him online through his network, taking classes and such. After I took a couple of classes with him, I started splitting time with him or co-counseling with him. Which was designed to help people discharge emotion. So if you have stuck trauma or PTSD experiences, you can get with a co-counselor and listen to each other, and hopefully discharge all that stuck trauma by crying, laughing, screaming or trembling. Anne: Were you paying for his services? Aliya: There was no payment. No, not at all. In fact, the attitude was, “I am doing you a favor. You’re the special chosen one. You get to help me. Everybody would love to be with me, but I chose you.” Anne: Oh, so he chose you to be his client? But you didn’t have to pay him and you were special, and so you also got to work for him. HE SAID, “I’M THE BEST CO-COUNSELOR HE HAS EVER HAD” Aliya: At first, I was co-counseling with him as though he were a counselor, but I was also taking turns as the “counselor”. Ultimately, I ended up moving to the state where he lives. There were supposed to be a lot of in-person events. Started helping him teach these classes and do administrative tasks and things like that, in addition to now co-counseling in person. And that’s where things got a little weird for me. Anne: So there’s a double relationship happening here where you’re working for him, but he’s also your counselor in this arrangement. Aliya: Exactly. Anne: In therapeutic circles, this is called a dual relationship. It’s unethical. It’s against the therapeutic ethics rules and is something people need to know before they search for affordable relationship counseling near me. But in his case, he’s not a therapist. This marriage therapy isn’t working. Can you talk about how like it first felt? Aliya: Sure, it felt great at first. Here’s this guy with all this knowledge and expertise, and he’s flattering me. He’s doing the love bombing thing, although we’re not in a romantic relationship. He is telling me how smart I am, and how inspiring it is to know me and all those kind of things. I’m just wonderful and can do no wrong. And I’m the best co-counselor he has ever had and all that. He would reach out and touch my hair and tell me how great my hair looks, and say, “Any excuse to come over and see you.” When he would come over to work on administrative stuff. So there were some double messages. “My life is so much better now that you’re in it,” things like that. HE STARTED CROSSING MORE ETHICAL BOUNDARIES Aliya: It felt very personal. He was constantly flattering me and complimenting me. A male friend had to point this out to me. “When was the last time I reached out and casually touched a man’s hair? Never.” And if I did that to him. He would’ve been offended, because now I crossed a boundary. But it was okay for him to do that to me. And then it got really hairy for me, because we started cuddling. We were on the couch together a lot and I was soaking up all this affection and warmth, and that worked on me emotionally. Anne: I am so, so sorry. He’s the expert, preying on vulnerable women. To hear that he’s cuddling people, that he’s doing pseudo professional coaching slash therapy. It sounds like a mess. I am so sorry. This is definitely affordable relationship counseling near me gone wrong. There were lots of signs of an abusive therapist in this situation. Aliya: When things took a turn, it was subtle at first. He used a few subtle put downs, and then not show up on time or cancel. Anne: Just for our listeners, so that they can hear what maybe a subtle put down might sound like, can you think of any examples? Aliya: The first one that came to mind, we served on a committee with one other person. She was on Zoom, and we were here in my house. and I said, “I’m getting milk to put in my tea.” I used Muscle Milk. He gave this disgusted look and went. “Well, is it even milk?” Just things like that. Why are you sitting over there instead of over here with us? I mean, things of no consequence whatsoever. But he felt the need to say something. I COULD FEEL THE SHIFT IN AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME Aliya: One time when I said something to him, he got very distracted and started looking at his phone and doing all kinds of things that typically abusive men would do. That he had never done before. So I could feel it shifting a little bit at that point. I was still co-counseling with him, and we co-counselled just about every single Friday. I helped him teach classes, helped him do his calendar and plan for the future, and maybe do a retreat. There was supposed to be a retreat, twice a year. I think there was one retreat in two years. So none of it was really panning out. There was not a single in-person event for two years. That was the administrative work. But during sessions, we would typically take 45 minutes each and take turns talking. And there’s a no advice rule, so you don’t give anybody any advice. But he would encourage me to get in touch with the pain, trauma and fear. And it could get pretty intense at times. I felt like he was getting bored with me. This affordable relationship counseling near me wasn’t feeling good. EVERYONE IN HIS ORGANIZATION IS VOLUNTEER Anne: How soon did you see that his actions and his words didn’t match? Aliya: He maintained his facade for maybe five or six months. And then it was, “Oh, I’m busy. Oh, I’m going to be late. Oh, I have to cancel, et cetera.” There was a time when the other person on this administrative committee with me, we were meeting every week supposedly. But he canceled at least half the time. And she said, “Why don’t we just meet once a month? Why don’t we schedule it differently?” And he got angry about that. He wanted us to be available every single Tuesday. In case he felt like showing up. Anne: So when he starts to be like, maybe you should get another co-counselor. So you would start paying this new co-counselor, or is everything in his organization volunteer and nobody pays anybody anything? Aliya: It’s all volunteer. It’s peer counseling. You’re doing it together. Everybody’s supposed to be equal. And no power hierarchy, although that’s a false premise. Because he’s somewhat of a well-known guru, and lots of women look up to him. He said he wanted a different co-counselor. Like he was done with me. He was gonna look for somebody else. But he didn’t actually address that properly. In fact, we did not stop co-counseling for at least another year after that. IT’S A LITTLE CULTISH Anne: It sounds very wishy washy. If someone isn’t paying for services, there’s no professional relationship in terms of the exchange of a fee is it like a church? What’s going on? Aliya: And it’s not well defined. That is the problem. I mean, you’re paying with your time, so you get 45 minutes. I get 45 minutes. If we have to cut it short on your turn, then I owe you the remainder of the time. Everything has to be equal in that regard. And nobody gets to dominate the conversation. Nobody gets one way time unless you agree to make it up later. It’s not well-defined. Anne: Which is hard because if you’re not paying them, how would you define that relationship? It kind of sounds a little bit commune-ish. Did it feel like that? Aliya: It’s a little cultish. And I think that’s his desire is to have a commune, really. Anne: Oh really? Aliya: Yeah. Anne: Living in a place where someone else made me dinner, but they didn’t necessarily live in my house. Doesn’t that sound good to everyone in some ways? WHEN AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME IS CENTERED ON THE “EXPERT” Anne: So because you were in administration, was it working for other people? I’m assuming most of the “co counselors” volunteering in this network were women co-counseling other women. Was he the only man? Aliya: There were two or three other men. One who was pretty consistent, because he was doing all the IT stuff for free also. And there was one other guy that just came and went. But yes, 99% of the participants are women. He is a harem builder. Anne: If you didn’t have him as your co-counselor and you had another woman. Was it working out for everybody else? Was this affordable relationship counseling near me benefitting others? Aliya: I did co-counsel with a woman for a while, and yeah, I think some people were benefiting from it, but at the same time have to understand, these are just lay people. It’s not necessarily safe for people. And so it’s a little iffy, And I think sometimes it just devolves. Anne: From your experience, what warnings would you have for people when they’re looking for a resource? Aliya: Pay attention to your gut, of course. There were moments along the way when I thought to myself, this is not gonna end well for me, because I noticed him treating other people poorly. HE’S ROLE PLAYING Aliya: I just blindly trusted this person. His written work was so impressive. It had helped me so much that I couldn’t believe he could be a perpetrator. Anne: Yeah, I’ve recommended books in the past. Then we heard back from women who went to that author for services. It surprised me because their services didn’t seem in line with what was on the page. And of course, it is hard for me because this is what I do. And I’m not perfect. So people could meet me and be like, oh my word, she was not as nice as I thought or something. Maybe ’cause I had a stomach ache. You never know. There’s that saying, “Never meet your heroes.” Because the written word is edited, it’s different than meeting someone in person. I guess what I’m asking is in meeting him, was it a feeling like he didn’t understand his own stuff? Does that make sense? Did it feel like there was a disconnect that he was play acting what he knew was the right answer? Aliya: That’s a good description actually: he’s role playing. So he can be very empathic and know all the right things to say. But there’s no depth to it. As long as it doesn’t require anything of him, he can be kind and supportive because he doesn’t have a dog in the fight. It’s only when there’s a conflict with him that his true colors come out. MAKE SURE BOUNDARIES ARE CLEARLY DEFINED Anne: Well, and if you’re in a commune, I’ll call it that. There’s gonna be some conflicts. If you don’t set it up as like, “Hey, I am a professional. You’ll be paying me for my services. This is how long our sessions will be.” That’s how it’s set up here at BTR. There’s no one with a dual relationship. Accredited coaching schools train our coaches. Plus divorce coaching certifications and all those certifications that our coaches have here. They are the best emotional support groups online. There’s some clearly defined boundaries. So if someone’s setting it up as a friendship or a relationship of equals, that’s a different situation. That means he’s not in charge. It means he can’t call the shots because of the way it’s set up. Even though it’s affordable relationship counseling near me. Aliya: Right, theoretically. Yes, we’re all supposed to be equals. Anne: I think this is a lesson for women in terms of their spouses. Is that you can go to couple therapy with your spouse. You can get them all the right information. They can regurgitate the right information back to you, supposedly understand all of the principles of abuse. They could understand the principles of healthy living. But then not actually believe it or use it. I think that’s surprising to people. AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME: HE’S DOING IT ON PURPOSE Anne: Like with my ex, he went to therapy for a long time. He could talk about addiction recovery, recite the 12 steps. He knew it very, very well. And really acted like he was in recovery. So the difference between knowing something and either believing it or using it or having it in Christian terms, sort of written upon your heart. Sometimes Christians use that terminology. I think it’s surprising to people that somebody can live in those two worlds. Especially, like a lot of Christians come to BTR for help, knowing that their husband reads the Bible, goes to church or purports to be a Christian. He knows everything, but he doesn’t do it. It’s shocking. Aliya: It is shocking to realize that he wrote that book, which is so well known and so helpful. I still say the book helped me tremendously, even though I now consider it more of an autobiography. Yeah, it’s a weird disconnect. That if you have a conflict with him, he starts demonstrating all the abusive tactics he wrote about. And I even think it’s a little more sinister than that. I think he knows what he’s doing, and he’s doing it on purpose because he enjoys it. So he gets women to come to him, surround him, help him with his work, engage with him, display all their emotional wounds to him, and then it’s fun for him to do the big discard. Yeah, very hurtful. WHEN THE “EXPERT” DOESN’T VALUE PEOPLE Aliya: I talked to five or six other women who have worked with him and not been paid. Or maybe gone out with him a couple of times and had it end badly. He doesn’t value people. People are interchangeable to him. It could be me one day and somebody else the next day. That’s what I didn’t understand. How can you sit and open your heart to somebody, and really to them, you’re still a nobody? He could just replace you. I noticed too late that in the process of co-counseling with him for two years, my mental health was declining. I was starting to feel more depressed. And I was wondering, is he gonna cancel this week or is he not? I was new in the area and he wouldn’t introduce me to anybody, because that was against his rules because he was absolutely adamant that we could not be friends. So I had to listen to him talk about his friends and activities around here, and though we have things in common, he would never introduce me to anybody. So I felt dependent on him, and he knew it and encouraged it. I was trying to run it for him. Me and another woman were trying to run it. He just had other things he would prefer to do. But most people in the organization were there to see him, because he’s the famous author with a head full of knowledge. So it died down quite a bit. And then we had a big fracture, he and I did. Because I started to feel suicidal. HE WASN’T THERE FOR ME WHEN I REALLY NEEDED HIM Aliya: He offered me a safe word to use in case I was really distraught. I could text him this word and he would know, and he would respond, and we could split some time together. Well, a few months went by and I used the word. He said he didn’t feel well and needed to cancel. That was for Friday. So I said, okay. He said, “We’ll do it Monday”. And I said, okay. Then on Saturday he changed the time for Monday. And then on Monday he told me he was feeling a lot better. So he would get back to me after he went and hung out with his friends. And he would let me know if he was available. And at that point I said, “No, thank you. I’m good. I don’t need to talk to you.” Anne: That’s very strange, that someone would not be like, okay, here’s the suicide hotline or something. Just putting you off rather than an actual suicide service. Or even say to them, “You know what? Suicide is not my area of expertise. I’m worried about you. I hope you can find the resources you need.” Even a frank, “This is outside of my scope of knowledge.” At BTR, because of confidentiality reasons, we don’t ever call any hotlines for anyone. But we would encourage someone to do it themselves. Like, you might be searching for affordable relationship counseling near me and need something outside of our scope. But to be like, I’m the end all, be all for everything. I’m so sorry, that’s wrong. AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME: I THINK IT WAS A SETUP Aliya: I think it was a setup in a way. It was his idea to have a safe word, and then he didn’t honor it. That caused a rift in the organization, because I was front and center in the organization. I answered his emails, helped him with his classes, and started groups for him. The one woman on the committee with me said, “Oh my gosh, wolf in sheep’s clothing. This is awful. I can’t believe it. I’m so sorry.” And the people started to think, well, where’s Aliya? What happened to her? Why isn’t she here? People wondered what happened. And I didn’t give a lot of details. I just said, “It’s not working for me. I’m moving on.” I thought it would be easy for him to generate a whole new group. And he has, they’ve started new classes. It sounds like they’ve had a retreat. The other woman on the committee with me called me and said, “Where are you?” Why aren’t you here?” And I was crying. I told her. She says to me, “Listen, I can’t fault him for something I didn’t witness.” I just said, “Do you really think he would behave that way if there were a witness?” And yeah, she didn’t respond to that. He’s so skilled at manipulating people. She’s a professional in some capacity who works with abused women too. It was horrifying. The betrayal in this affordable relationship counseling near me was amazing. So now she’s taken over most of my positions with him. The part that adds insult to injury is that he flipped the whole thing, blamed the whole thing on me. IT’S NOT MY FAULT HE’S NOT TRUSTWORTHY Aliya: I ended up feeling like it was my fault. Then I started to realize, wait a minute, this guy does not practice what he preaches at all. I just thought I could trust him. Like if you can trust anybody, it would be him, you know? And he knows that. Yeah, it’s not my fault that he is not trustworthy. He’s extremely good at his game. He’s so good. Anne: I’ve had other women who have been abused by therapists come on to talk about it. And the patterns are they’re not paying them or they’re not requesting pay. The sessions go longer than they’re supposed to. Physical contact, contact outside the session. It’s become like your social network. It kind of has a feeling of a church. ‘Cause it’s not like you’re paying and you’re all working together instead of professional services in this type of affordable relationship counseling near me. So those are some of the red flags. Aliya: Yeah, I agree. We did plenty of that, like emailing, texting, and things. So it wasn’t clean in any way. There were no well-defined parameters. I couldn’t tell, are we friends? Are we just working together? I’m working for him, but he is not paying me. We’re counseling together as peers, but I’m making myself vulnerable. He’s really not. That slowly dawned on me that he would stick to the same surfacey topics over and over again. HE’S A BAD ACTOR Aliya: Although he fancies himself an actor. If he wanted to cry, he got a photograph and sat down and looked at it and made himself cry. All just really weird stuff. Snuggling on the couch, even lying down on the couch a couple of times. Which was really strange for me, because I have a history of childhood sexual abuse, and it is bringing up a lot of stuff for me. But he takes it as, “Well, you know, it’s easier to cry it all out if you’re being held.” Very confusing, yeah. Like I know one woman who worked with him collaborated with him. So she asked him out, and he flew into a rage over it. When things go south like they did with me, he’s gonna say one of two things, either. Well, she just couldn’t accept that I wouldn’t socialize with her. He said that about me. Anne: This is someone who’s, sorry, I just have to interrupt and say, says someone who will snuggle with you on the couch. Aliya: Right. Yeah, and then the other thing that he always says is, “I’m a little concerned about her mental health.” So he said that about me too. He wasn’t really that concerned. Anne: He caused your mental health issues. Aliya: It was a huge betrayal. Like an arsonist, set a fire, and then run and hide in the bushes and sit and watch when the firetruck comes. ‘Cause he wrote the book, and then he gets everybody to trust him, and then he does what’s in the book. AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME: ABUSERS DO NOT LIKE STRUCTURE Aliya: Imagine the power he gets out of that, it’s sick. I use the word evil because I didn’t think of another word. It’s really sinister. Anne: The whole situation is sinister because of the lack of boundaries and the lack of structure. They do not like structure, because then they can’t do what they want, when they want it. So while it is affordable relationship counseling near me, there’s a huge emotional cost. And they have a hard time with divorce decrees, for example. And they have a hard time with things like what does the Bible says about divorce. They want her to follow rules to the T but they don’t mind just doing whatever they want. So having the structure of his organization be so wishy-washy and structureless, he gets to do whatever he wants in whatever way he wants. And if someone isn’t paying to have him be there at a certain time, he can cancel. Aliya: Yeah, and he still thought I would do administrative tasks for him after all this happened. Anne: I’m so sorry that this happened to you, and especially on top of your own story, which we haven’t talked about, that you went through abuse with your husband and then had this experience on top of it. When your husband is abusing you and you don’t recognize it, and finally you do, and you try to go for help. But it’s another thing when the people that are supposed to help you, it could be a therapist, clergy or abuse specialist, worsen things. You don’t know what is happening. THIS BETRAYAL WAS WORSE THAN MY HUSBAND’S Aliya: Yeah, they felt so different. Because with my ex-husband, as you said, I didn’t really notice or realize what was happening at first. And then when I did, I made a clean break from him. But this person was touting himself as a champion of women and a great support and totally understands what you’ve been through. And that betrayal felt worse to me, because he totally does understand. He’s written about what it does to women psychologically and emotionally, and how devastating it is. He knows full well what he is doing, and that to me is worse. Anne: Well, thank you for coming to talk about your experience with affordable relationship counseling near me. This is really important. I do wanna stress that unsafe resources can come from women, they can come from men. They can come from anyone. In the court system, for example, we have victims who are dealing with super abusive guardian ad litems who are women and men. That’s hard too, realizing that any resource could be unsafe. And then knowing what to look for so that you can find safe support. I think the other part is making sure that if you’re isolated and everyone who has been through abuse is isolated. That you are also creating friendships besides the professional support you’re relying on. So finding a quilting group, a church, or a hiking group, or some outside resource is really important as well. That can keep you grounded and help you heal. Cause I think abuse victims can heal in any way. And they find their voice after emotional abuse. SAFE CONNECTIONS MATTER Anne: But having a friend who cares about you, who you can talk to every day and go for a walk with and go to a movie, is really important. We should not underestimate real life connections with real people who are our friends and family over professional support, over affordable relationship counseling near me. And that’s the hard part. So many people don’t understand abuse. There are so many victims who can’t think of anybody in real life that they trust. I talk about this in the Living Free Workshop. If you have no one you can trust, coming to BTR. Going to our Betrayal Trauma Recovery group sessions, going to betrayal trauma individual sessions is great. I think it’s very important that things are defined clearly. That’s something here at BTR we take very seriously. So our group sessions have a hour and a half time limit, and our individual sessions have a 50 minute time limit. Women pay for services. We are all paid. That’s one reason why BTR does not recommend other resources. It’s not that an other resource couldn’t be amazing, it’s just that we don’t actually know what happens behind the scenes. And then also hopefully starting to make friends in your area somehow some way. I know that’s hard and overwhelming, but that’s gonna make a big difference. Being able to have people in real life who are your actual friends to support you. Did you find that after falling out with him, because a lot of your friends were part of the organization, that you were then isolated? Aliya: Yep, definitely. FINDING A SAFE AFFORDABLE RELATIONSHIP COUNSELING NEAR ME NETWORK Aliya: I lost friends in the organization for sure. But I have also made some friends here, so I’ve got a little network. I’ve only been here two years, so it takes awhile, but I feel like I’m making friends. One of my friends back home called it way before it came to a head, and she said, listen, if you wanna hang in there with him, I still love you. I’m not judging you, but you just need to know it’s not gonna end well for you. And she was right, and she still loves me. She’s not judging me, she’s still my friend. So I actually appreciate honesty like that. Anne: We stand with you, having been through it myself with my ex and other exploitative people who have exploited me, been dishonest in other areas of my life. It’s really shocking and hard to realize that there are people like this everywhere, and to know that manipulative people prey on vulnerable people. And so when you’re in this vulnerable state, which is natural for you to be in, learning some safety strategies to navigate that time is important. HOW TO MAKE STRATEGIC DECISIONS Aliya: That makes total sense. And most of the women that come to that network are just coming out of abusive relationships. So they’re vulnerable. Anne: Yeah, the Living Free Workshop, that I wrote, has that built into it. How to determine who’s safe and who isn’t safe. When is affordable relationship counseling near me safe? How to make decisions, so that the decisions you’re making, as you recognize this is abuse, can be strategic as you move forward. So if you’re listening and you’re like, “oh man, I’m worried about that,” then check out the Living Free Workshop. Aliya, thank you so much for sharing your story today. Aliya: Thank you.
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  Common Signs of a Toxic Relationship That Might Surprise You 30.06.2026 39dk

  Are you seeing things in your marriage or a relationship that feel a little intense or puzzling…and you’re not sure if they’re normal or actually signs of a toxic relationship? If so, it’s important to pause and look at the pieces of the puzzle together to see what they might be telling you. To discover if you’re in a toxic relationship take our free emotional abuse test. Here are five things that might seem “normal,” but aren’t: SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP THAT ARE EASY TO MISS 1. HE WANTS TO MOVE THE RELATIONSHIP FORWARD QUICKLY When you’re in a relationship with someone who seemingly shares and cares about your values and interests, it’s easy to be swept up by the intensity of it all. Especially if the relationship seems to happen at the “right” time, and things move forward quickly. But this level of intensity and pace doesn’t give you time to slow down and really think about why you seem so compatible. 2. HE WANTS CONSTANT ACCESS TO YOU, BUT HE’S CLOSED OFF It might seem caring for your husband to be curious about your life and daily activities. But if he’s constantly calling or texting, and questioning you about your whereabouts and who you’re with, while withholding those same details about his life from you, you’re not in a reciprocal relationship. His “curiosity” or suspicion, is most likely stemming from his own toxic patterns of behavior. 3. HIS MOODS SHIFT SUDDENLY AND YOU DON’T KNOW WHY Think about it…in healthy relationships, partners are usually aware of the reasons why one partner isn’t in a good mood. They typically communicate about bad days at work or when they’re not feeling well. But in toxic relationships, that level of trust and communication often isn’t there, because one partner doesn’t want it to be. Everything’s fine, until it’s not, and then, it suddenly is again…And you’re left trying to figure out what changed. 4. HE‘S UPSET OVER SMALL THINGS Things that don’t seem like a big deal, suddenly are signs of a toxic relationship. For example, you miss a turn on the way to his best friend’s birthday party… and suddenly it’s not about directions anymore. He’s accusing you of being disrespectful, or doing it on purpose because you don’t want to go. Or you might simply ask him to help with the groceries, and suddenly he’s angry because, “you don’t respect his time and all the things he has to do.” 5. HE’S AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PERSON IN PUBLIC Around friends, he’s calm, kind, helpful, fun-loving, and completely attentive. In counseling, he appears thoughtful, and sincere about working on the relationship. He says all the right things. He wants to understand. But when you’re alone again, his warmth and willingness to do the work or even understand the issues disappears. And now you’re left dealing with that and the isolation that comes from knowing that everyone on the outside sees him as a “great guy.” If you relate and you need support, we’re always online to help you. Go to btr.org/group/ to see my daily support group schedule. TRANSCRIPT: EARLY SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR HUSBAND Anne:  I did an interview with a member of our community. We’re going to call her Iris, She talked about how his toxic patterns showed up in her marriage and what happened when she started using the strategies she learned in my workshop. Here’s that interview. Welcome, Iris.  Iris: Thank you. Glad to be here. Anne: Let’s start at the beginning of your story. Can you talk about how you felt when you first met your husband? Iris: He was very charming, and he seemed extremely sincere. Now I understand that he was love bombing me and was trying to make things go fast. It was very intense. And he preyed upon me at a time when I was really ready to get married and have kids. Everybody was getting married and having kids. So he went right for what was the most vulnerable part of me. And we met through a young adult single thing in our group. He proceeded to be very attentive. Anne: When you say young adult, single thing, that sounds a little bit like my faith. What’s your faith background? Iris: it’s the Catholic church. It’s actually Theology on Tap, which is at a brew pub, and you can buy a drink and mingle. And then they have a speaker. Anne: Kind of Matt Fraddish. Iris: Yes. Anne: I actually know Matt Fradd in real life. Iris: And I don’t go to the Catholic church anymore. But that was a huge part of our marriage and, we were really in a circle of pretty devout people. Which also I think contributed to my willingness to submit to him. Anne: When you say submit, can you talk about that a little bit more? EARLY CONTROL DISGUISED AS CARE AND SHARED VALUES Iris: Hindsight, there were red flags before we married. There were early signs of coercive control. It dates me, but cell phones weren’t the norm yet. And he bought me a cell phone so he could reach me more easily. He was pretty volatile. He asked me to marry him within a month or two and I deferred and we dated longer, but he was just intense. Then he would be very sorry. He would cold shoulder me at points. He’d be angry for things that were weird, wasn’t very flexible. Now I know these were signs of a toxic relationship. We went through nine months of marriage prep. So many Christian circles focus on the idea that the man is the head. I saw that in my parents’ marriage too. My dad made all the decisions. My mom was independent in some ways, but she still did what he wanted. I think I expected marriage to look like that. The husband leads and the wife follows. Even though I was independent, had a master’s degree, was over 30, and had traveled, I still lived in a huge Christian community where that model of marriage was everywhere. NOT RECOGNIZING SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP Anne: And you just mentioned nobody actually says that, but they actually do say that, it might not be in so many words. It might not be so directly, but they like actually say it. And if you call ’em out and say, “Hey, you said this.” They usually deny it. “Of course, I didn’t say that.” And you’re like, “What? You did.” That’s the part that’s really confusing. The therapists come in or the clergy comes in, or the friends and family, and they gaslight you too. It’s like, “You’re putting words in my mouth. I didn’t say that.” Especially when they find out what he is really like, and you’re like, “What?” “You told me this.” “Well, I never did.” And they for sure did. It’s almost like no matter what you do, you can’t win. There are friends of mine and maybe friends of yours too, who are amazing and they’re like, “Oh my word, I said the wrong thing.” That is so validating. I feel like when I meet people like that, it’s easy to be like, “It’s okay did the ‘wrong thing’ too. I was doing the best I could and I didn’t know that he was abusive. And I didn’t know what was happening, and didn’t recognize signs of a toxic relationship. So I can’t blame you either.” But, for the other people who continue to not believe us and deny that they said or did certain things. ‘That’s harder. Cause it becomes this almost group of unhealthy people that you’re dealing with, rather than just the one unhealthy person. Iris: Right. Signs of a Toxic Relationship: The Sudden Switch After Marriage Anne: Did you end up going to couple therapy? Iris: In the Catholic Church you do Pre-Cana, which is pre-marriage counseling, and they saw some things that were concerning. He was very intent that he could change things. They would categorize it like how we were different. I think she said to me, “Life might always be kind of hard for him.” ‘Cause that’s what she was seeing.. He works very hard, so he seems very sincere. And he met with the man in the couple we met with. And read books and was very sincere. They said to us, “Oh, we’ve never seen somebody work so hard to try to improve themselves so that they’re ready for a marriage.” He impressed them, and I remember feeling exhausted by that point. And it was a mask. I now know that these were signs of a toxic relationship. Anne: Like you shouldn’t have to work that hard. to be normal. They are hard workers, because it would be very hard to pretend all the time. Iris: Right, and that’s how he lives. He has a mask all the time. We had this huge Catholic wedding, like an hour and 20 minute long mass. And it was that night the switch flipped. And he was angry. He cold shouldered me. We’d waited till our wedding night, and he said things that were incredibly humiliating. Seeing THE SAME SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP IN OTHER WOMEN’S STORIES Iris: Then the next morning he would hardly talk to me. And we left the beautiful hotel. We were to go to a morning brunch at my parents, with guests who were from outta town and our families. And he was furious because people had decorated our car. And he had to stop at a car wash to rinse everything off before we even got to the wedding brunch. Anne: I used this story in my book. Iris: You did? Anne: Yes, this story. Someone else had the same story. Iris: Isn’t that amazing? Like how these Chucks do the same thing to us and have all the same signs of a toxic relationship. Anne: ‘ Like Twilight Zone. Cause you never gave me that story. Iris: isn’t that amazing? I feel like that in group a lot. I’m like, “Oh, that happened to me.” Anne: BTR has been like me trying to fit all the pieces together. And as I’ve tried to fit all the pieces together, things became very clear. And I’ve become very good at seeing in the dark. So this piece of the puzzle I was trying to get it to fit. Like why did he do that? I’ve never met you before, but I spent a lot of time piecing just this piece. With the other pieces that I had of other people’s stories to say, what was this about? I’ve spent so much time with this story in my brain and what it meant. I’m like, holy cow. Iris: Thank you. Thank you for somewhere to tell it, because it was something that felt so shameful for such a long time, rejected, and humiliated. RECOGNIZING THE PATTERNS OF EMOTIONALLY ABUSIVE PARTNERS Iris: So we went to that wedding brunch, and I knew he was on edge the whole time. Other people didn’t necessarily see that. We got back to the house we were making our home together, which was his house. And he was angry, he didn’t want to go on our honeymoon, but I was like, I’ve been planning a wedding. All I have been thinking of is being able to go rest on a beach. So he agreed to go, and it was a really a horrible week. He was just fighting. His anger and unreasonableness, were more signs of a toxic relationship. It’s so hard, because he can make it feel like I’m also participating. We finally came home after the week, and at several points I thought maybe I should just fly home,’because it was awful. How would I even ask somebody to come and pick me up? What would I say? What would I do? Feeling so humiliated, like we had this big wedding, we’d done all this preparation, so we finally came home and I remember the first morning after we’d gotten home. He got up, he didn’t even talk to me. He grabbed his mountain bike, and he went mountain biking all day. That was a pattern that repeats throughout our marriage, where he just does his own, yeah. Anne: I had a mountain biking all day incident as well that I wrote about in my book. All of a sudden I’m like, what is happening? This is Twilight Zone, yes. Iris: No way. The Chucks, it’s the Chuck thing, which has been the most powerful thing to learn. WOMEN HAVE DIFFERENT RESPONSES Anne: Surreal that they’re all the same. I think that’s one of the powerful things about our group sessions is that the women are so different. We all react differently and we’re all doing the right thing. Because all of our personalities are different. So some of us want to protect ourselves by being quiet and sitting back and that’s the right thing for us. Some of us want to fight the guy, because that’s how our personality is. But they do all the same things. It doesn’t seem the same, because we haven’t acted the same. And I think the thing that like really helps it all come together is when you realize they’re so transactional. That they’re going to manipulate you in whatever way works for you, all signs of a toxic relationship. So if you’ve been trying to protect yourself in a certain way, they’ve been countering your protection methods in a certain way. And then when you change up the way you’re trying to protect yourself, they almost become like a different person. But they’ve been that same exact person the whole time. It’s just that they’re so transactional that they’re like, oh, that’s not working anymore. I have to do this other thing. And this whole new set of problems comes out so they can be super, super nice or super aggressive. But the whole time, it’s manipulation and lies. Did he ever go through a time where he seemed like he was really great? WHEN PREGNANCY AND BAD ADVICE KEEP YOU STUCK WITH SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP Iris: I got pregnant right away, so I probably would’ve left, but then I was pregnant and trying to navigate that. When I found out I was pregnant with my first baby, I went to therapy right away, and that therapist just didn’t have the skills to recognize an emotional cycle of abuse and really gaslit me. Then got pregnant again when my daughter was nine months old. So I had two babies, under 18 months old. That was another thing. In my faith, that I grew up with, you’re supposed to accept all babies. That was something that really kept me trapped. I knew once I was pregnant that I would always have to be linked to him. And that was incredibly devastating and terrifying. I think the Christian, and I’m going to say trope, I don’t want to make fun of anybody, but the trope of marriage that you just have to work hard enough and it will all be fine. That really was so damaging when signs of a toxic relationship are present. He did tell me early in our marriage that he had struggled with porn. He did the Every Man’s Battle stuff and everything like that. Also he confided in me that he’d used some at work. He has a security clearance and was about to be interviewed with a, polygraph. He was afraid they would ask him something like that. At the time, he was abusive our whole marriage, but it was the most intense. I didn’t even have the wherewithal to understand that. It was disturbing, it made me feel awful. But I didn’t have any brain space to process what to do with that. He downloaded it on me to get it off his chest. HE WAS Emotionally ABUSIVE ALL OF THE TIME Iris: After my second baby was born, he was probably seven months old, I tried to leave to go to a mom’s group. My ex-husband was angry with me because of my daughter, who’s my older one. I was working on potty training her. And I let her wear pants without underwear. She pooped and he was furious. He came up behind me in the bathroom and pushed me against the counter and said, “Next time, make sure she wears underwear.” So he was abusive all of the time, disrupted my sleep, and would wake me up in the night angry if I coughed. I had to sleep on 18 inches of the bed or less, without moving to not anger him. The reaction I had was to kick him to get him to back up. That’s when he grabbed me by the throat and started to strangle me. And I know now, but I felt terrible later. All I wanted to do was leave. I got my coat and I got in the car and I left. My children were still in the house with him. I just wanted to get away. I went to the mom’s group like everything was fine. But I was dissociated and in trauma. I had gone to my therapist then within a day or two and just poured everything out. And her response was, other women have it worse. And I was so humiliated, like feeling somehow I had caused this. Even though like I knew, I have education. I was in my thirties, I knew that wasn’t right. But the abuse had taken so much of my strength. That kept me so trapped for so long. It made it harder to open up. Therapists aren’t equipped to see signs of a toxic relationship Iris: And we went to so many marriage therapists, who just aren’t equipped. Because Chuck is charming, and they just don’t understand the dynamic except for one therapist who we did not go back to. They didn’t see the signs of a toxiC relationship. But she was crazy. So we went in, it was this dilapidated house. She was far back in the house. The door was open. We went in and sat down. Literally a dog with sores and the cone of shame came out, and she was like, I’ll be right there. Chuck was like, so wigged out. She came out and talked to us for a little while. She also had paranoid notes tacked up on her wall. Anyway, she talks to us for a little while, and Chuck is so wigged out, so Chuck is walking out. And before we leave she says, I want to give you something. And she hands me a page, and it has books on it. So I went home and ordered it, and then it came and I didn’t read it, like I couldn’t read it. I didn’t read it for the longest time, because it was just so painful. But that was the only therapist who saw the signs of a toxic relationship. And then I found out the next week she lost her license, in the newspaper. Anyway, she was the only one who saw the abuse and handed me a key. Anne: So she handed you a clue. When His “I Choose You” Doesn’t Add Up Iris: A clue, and she was right. I had gone to other therapists over the years. I looked just crazy, because I would just cry. One therapist had different offices and I would always go to the wrong one. because I had no short term working memory available. Chuck disrupted my sleep. I’d be in the shower, he’d bring the baby in screaming and put them on the bath mat and I’d have to get out and take care of the baby. He’d drive angry, the list goes on and on. I just didn’t have the words to explain. We went to a mom’s group event where dads were invited. And he was angry at me the whole time, but only I knew that. And then I had to get in the car and drive home with him. So it was really intense. And then at about the seven year mark, he decided that marriage worked for him. It was such a delight, such a relief to have him gone for two weeks. He came home from a business trip. And he said, “I realized it’s been you the whole time. You’re really the one that I want to be married to.” Anne: Oh Iris: Right. Anne: Wait, he was having an affair. Iris: I don’t know. Anne: That sounds like something someone would say if they just broke up with someone. Because they’re like trying to choose between the person they’re having an affair with. In my book, I put the pieces together. FROM THE DAY WE GOT MARRIED, THERE WERE SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP Anne: After interviewing over 200 women and hearing their stories. I’m pretty good at knowing what happened. I think in this situation, he’s having an affair and she breaks up with him. He’s feeling bummed about it. He might say out loud to you, I decided I want to be with you. Iris: Mm hmm Anne: You don’t have the context of the affair, of him breaking up with her. So this really weird out of the blue statement, “I’ve decided I want to be married to you.” When he’s been married to you for seven years is odd. It also feels like a relief, “Oh, maybe he just didn’t want to be married to me before, and now he’s choosing me.” But you don’t realize what a weird out of place thing that is, because he makes you feel better in that moment. I don’t know if that rings true to you, but it seems that would be the order of events that would precipitate out of the blue, telling you, “Oh, I’m choosing you now.” Iris: Yeah, it didn’t make me feel better, because from the day we got married, he was horrible. it was awful. Anne: So you’re like, great. Now this awful person really wants to be married to me. Iris: It felt like a lie. Now that I understand how Chuck works, like there was something he wanted, he didn’t really love me. Somebody who really loved me and realized they were wrong would’ve not said that. I think they would’ve said, ” I’ve been horrible. I can see why you wouldn’t even want to be married to me, but I realized I really want to be married to you. They would’ve said something to try to heal that. Anne: Some effort to repair. Seeing the Patterns and Signs of a Toxic Relationship Anne: Instead it was more signs of a toxic relationship. Iris: I think so. And I think that’s why it felt awful. Because he manipulated me. Which I don’t think I could verbalize at that time, but he manipulated again. Anne: Were you about to leave at that time? Was there anything about you that was different? Iris: He knew that I was unhappy, but he was abusive all of the time, yeah. Anne: Did you ever find out about explicit media use? Iris: He told me, in hindsight, he’d invited a single woman that he’d never met to our wedding. Which was weird. It was a last minute thing, and I feel like she was probably a backup. Anne: You’ve said three stories now that sound exactly like other stories. I have heard this before. Your story includes all the classic, down to the detail. Iris: Wow Anne: Of inviting someone else to the wedding. Iris: The Chuckness of it. Anne: You got a winner. Iris: He’s a doozy. He told me later that he didn’t actually want to get married. Then when I look at inviting this woman to the wedding, he didn’t admit that for many years. But when he did, I was like, oh, so she must have been the escape hatch. If he didn’t go through with marrying me, he would’ve had someone in the wings. FEELING HELPLESS Iris: I suspect he continues to use porn. He is in cybersecurity, and he always had three computers in his office. So I wonder if one of those he used. I don’t know. I’ve always been curious about what that was. I don’t think I was as tuned into that until I was leaving the marriage. And then there wasn’t much that I had access to. There wasn’t anybody that seemed to have that language who I could talk to. I just felt really helpless, and he was very manipulative and very controlling, the love bombing, he is very good at. The other part was that I was super reactive at that point. So I felt very guilty about my responses to his behavior. Even though it was less intense and further apart. But the reality is that those first seven years, in the bedroom, total coercion, marital rape, and everything now that I have words for, had happened. By that point, like there was very little he had to do to make me comply, to try to stay out of his way. I would try to have a separate life, while maintaining that Christian marriage appearance. It took me a long time to see these as signs of a toxic relationship. Anne: We would probably call it like survival mode. You are trying to survive and that’s why a lot of people use the word survivor when they talk about abuse victims, because every day you’re just trying to survive. Why Getting Help Feels So Scary at First Iris: Yeah, daily. Navigate all of the things that are happening that just don’t make any sense. And I don’t have the words for. I think during the pandemic, I started to see your Instagrams. And it was like, oh, that’s what’s happening, those are the words. That’s what this is. And beginning to be able to label things and feel like I’m not alone. Then, wanting to join group, but then being afraid. What if it doesn’t help, I don’t want Chuck to know I’m joining? Just feeling do I really want to do that? because I felt like if I go through that door, I can’t go back. Anne: Can we talk about that for a minute? because a lot of women have told me that. I followed you on Instagram, or I listened to the podcast, and I didn’t start attending group sessions because I knew it would change everything. What is it about BTR that is different in that way? It’s different than maybe therapy or something. Is it because you’re going to finally get help to look at it. Seeing the signs of a toxic relationship can be scary at first. Iris: This can make me cry. I think, because no one had helped. So I think there was an element of, I could try this and probably it’s still not going to help. By that point, looking for help for so long and thinking, I don’t know that anything will help. then being so vulnerable and beaten down. I think there’s a sense of like, does anybody really want to help me? Do I deserve help? because it certainly seems like it’s my fault. So being very afraid to join a group. Like it’s terrifying the first day. BTR FELT LIKE AN ANSWER TO PRAYER Anne: Once you did attend a group session? Were you surprised at what happened? Iris: Yeah, the first day I joined, you hear that zoom beep and you are in group and feeling so afraid. But I was so welcome. it was like I could take a breath, even though really I was crying so hard. Hearing everybody talk, hearing the coaches talk, feeling like the words made sense. I didn’t share that first time, but just crying afterwards. Like there’s somewhere that gets this. There’s somewhere where there are other women who understand this. I’ve never met anybody who knows what’s happening to me. In my story, something that’s amazing was that when my daughter was a baby, there was this show on daytime TV called Starting Over House. It was a reality show for women to go to this house and start over. They had two coaches, and I remember watching these women go, and they had all different kinds of problems that they were trying to grow from or whatever. All I wanted was to take my baby and join that house. It was a reality show. I’m sure it would not have been really super helpful. But I just wanted to have people love on me and help me figure out my marriage. That’s all I wanted. So when I came to Betrayal Trauma Recovery group, I’m not kidding you, two of the coaches looked like those two coaches on that show. It just felt like it was a prayer answer. HIS ANGER WAS THERE ALL THE TIME Iris: So Sharon and Renee, two coaches loved on me and made me feel like I wasn’t crazy. And helped me to slowly unravel what had been happening and what had happened to me, and find my voice. I joined in the spring, I was already starting to take steps in my marriage to not engage with Chuck. By July, he was angry with me all of the time. Which I’ll come back to in just a minute. But , before I had joined, he had done some really angry driving in the car. He’d been angry one day when I had locked the door to the master bedroom, because I like to pray and meditate. And then I had gotten in the shower without unlocking it. Because I just want privacy from two kids, a dog and a Chuck. He banged on the door for as long as I was in the shower, and I could hardly hear him, but it scared the pants off of my kids. I felt like I didn’t know what to do. When I joined group, I finally started to have some strategies and observe him. Sometimes I forget all the things that happened. Right before I joined in February, he bought a new car and asked for money from his father. Then he came to me and said, “I didn’t spend all the money on the car. I saved some, so either you can go to marriage therapy with me.”, which he’d been threatening, and I didn’t want to go to marriage therapy with him because we’d been many, many times. GROUP HELPED ME SEE THE SIGNS OF A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP Iris: He said, “Either you go to marriage therapy with me, and I’ll buy a car for our daughter, or I’m going to divorce you. Not long after that, I ended up joining group. Then he said, “I used that money to file for divorce. I hired an attorney, and how do you want me to serve you your papers?” At that point, I had enough skill to say you can have me served, thank you. And it was super calm. And then I actually jumped in group and was able to just process. One of the things that was so amazing was that everything happening to me in real time, I could then go in a group, get support, be in my closet, my car, or at the library. The more I went towards health and boundaries, the angrier he got. So he actually continued to ask me for two months how I wanted my divorce papers. I can see how divorce and emotional abuse were intertwined, he was using the threat of divorce to try to control me. I would say, “You can have me served.” And he would say, I don’t want to pay $400. He did that until I got a paper in the mail and I thought that I was being served. I didn’t think I could be served in the mail, which you can’t in my state, but it was actually that they were going to kick it out of the system. I took that paper to an attorney, because I had been interviewing attorneys. That kicked off the divorce process. Because I was served. Anne: That whole time he is asking, “How do you want to be served? And you’re like, “Just serve me.” DEALING WITH CONTROL WHEN HE FILED FOR DIVORCE Anne: He’s trying to get you to do something to stop the divorce. He threatens you—if you don’t toe the line, I’ll divorce you. When you’re like, okay, go ahead and divorce me, then he’s escalating. Using all the tricks and signs of a toxic relationship that worked before. He reminds me of my ex, who said that. Then he didn’t file. Because he thought that would instigate me repairing. Or me doing the thing I was supposed to do. And when I didn’t do it, I don’t think he wanted to file for divorce. It’s just that he couldn’t figure out how to control me anymore. He was like, well, I guess I have to make these things happen. And it sounds the same in this scenario, where he’s trying to get you to do something. Because a normal person, if they’re like, how do you want me to serve you? And you say, oh, just serve me. They’d be like, okay. And they would serve you. Iris: Right, it was control. I was so thankful I could go back in group and have the framework, putting my lab coat on, doing one step at a time. Getting shored up so that I wouldn’t be bowled over by his behavior. I finally hired an attorney, and my attorney notified his attorney. Chuck came to me and said, “Well, that’s not fair. You didn’t tell me you had an attorney. And now we both have to decide to dismiss the divorce. I can’t just decide myself.” Anne: Like not to get divorced? After he’s filed, he’s like, wait. Now that you’ve responded to me serving you with divorce papers, we actually have to get divorced. Iris: Right. Anne: That sounds like my Chuck too. INDIVIDUAL SESSIONS HELPED ME GET READY FOR EACH BIG BATTLE Iris: Really, it’s like they’re all going by the same playbook. I think realizing that these are all the signs of a toxic relationship was huge. And it allowed me to understand that my job was to be strategic. Chuck does a lot of stupid as a strategy. That attorney he hired in July, by the time our status conference was in October, he’d used all of his retainer. Which was $5,000, and nothing had happened yet. Because he is a Chuck and likes to call his attorney to talk. So then right after the status conference, he fired the attorney and then went pro se for a while. I was so thankful that I had BTR, that I could do group. I could do the Betrayal Trauma Recovery individual sessions to get ready for each big barrier or battle with him, so that I went in calm and focused. It really allowed me, in my divorce process to understand that this was the best thing for me. Even though he was trying to control me. It was finally the door out. And he kept coming back to me and asking, “Do you really want a divorce?” And I would say, “You could move out.” But he never would. One of the other things was that understanding that there was going to be so much out of my control and really focusing on what was in my control. In my coaching sessions with Renee and with Sharon, being able to determine what my top priorities were. My priorities weren’t numbers. My priorities were big picture. And then I said, these are the things that are most important and this is what I want to work towards. And it helped me. I feel like things worked out well for me. WE SETTLED AN HOUR BEFORE COURT Iris: So having enough money to restart and go back to school. Having stability for my kids, not selling the house immediately so that my daughter could finish high school. Like those were the big picture things. And because Chuck just wants to fight, it was the 11th hour literally. He hired an attorney again, just weeks before our divorce was final. But we ended up settling like an hour before court. I was able just to hang on, to understand it was going to be like that no matter what I did. Like I didn’t have any control over him, and I really got up that morning not knowing what was going to happen. And being at peace in that, and that I was doing all the things that I needed to do, and to let go of that so that I wasn’t in a battle with him. That was incredibly powerful. Hard but powerful. So it’s been final for two years. And the post separation abuse continues, and BTR’s been incredibly helpful in that. I was able to stay in our marital home for a year till our daughter graduated, and then last year that sold. So I moved out and things just lined up. In part because he was so disorganized. I think that worked out in my favor. And I’m now in school finishing a post Master’s certificate in school counseling. And I got hired last fall as a school counselor. So I’m working full-time as a school counselor while finishing my certificate. Just having somewhere to work out the technical stuff and then the emotional stuff, to understand how to be strategic. RESTARTING MY LIFE Iris: Because I could stay in that place rather than be in his blender. Which is what it was for 18 years. I have been able to restart my life and feel so grateful and fortunate. That I’ve had the support, and he continues to be abusive. And my daughter now is 19 and my son is 17. And so being able to talk about that and how he behaves helped me. I know that at some point, I won’t have to interact with him as much. Or at all once my kids are bigger. But because of the type of abuser he is, because of the types of things he did to me, I know that I am at greater risk of him being dangerous to me physically. And so being able to unpack that, but also, understanding that I have a right to safety and that I can take steps to do that and not feel bad about it. He’s much sneakier now. He’s incredibly angry with me and feels like the divorce was unfair. Because his goal is control, he can’t control me anymore, I think is one reason why he’s angry. It is palpable when I’m around him. He seethes at me. Other people may not be able to see it because he’ll mask it until there’s nobody around. But I think it has been invaluable to me to have a community where I can process that and then take steps to be safe from all the signs of a toxic relationship. When I finally blocked him, which was scary to do, because we have two kids. And that was easier to be able to text and call. It was just another vector for him to get to me. BLOCKING HIM FELT SO EMPOWERING Iris: So blocking him and doing email only. It felt so empowering to make that decision and be able to unpack that in group and also get the support of “Yay, you finally blocked him.” Like I’d been talking about it for so long. And trying to figure out the signs of a toxic relationship, There are the big steps to leave abuse and there are smaller ones too. Sometimes it’s the little ones that felt really hard. Especially because then my kids would know that I blocked him. Moving away from abuse is hard. I left the house today because I have somebody cleaning my house, which I started hiring somebody. So that I can do all that I’m doing. because I’ve been in school and working full-time and parenting two teens, and it feels so empowering. When they walked in today, I was thinking, because I was coming to talk to you and I was like, they’re helping me leave abuse. And I can say that to you. I think you know that. But he was abusive with cleaning. He would wake me. He likes things clean. He’d wake the kids cleaning and it’s very controlling. But to have a clean house and not be abused, it’s hard to express. This is my safe space, and I get to decide how it gets clean. I get to decide how to spend my money. I get to make choices now that I couldn’t make before. I’m just so incredibly grateful that BTR, I can make choices and know that I can. Thank you. LEARNING THE STRATEGIES IS INVALUABLE Anne: You are so brave and so strong. Look at you. You’ve got a good job. You have enough money to be able to hire someone to help clean your house, and the lack of guilt. Because some people have the money, but they’re like, I still can’t. I should be able to, no, like look at all the amazing things that you’ve accomplished. When it comes to divorce, if people ask me my situation, I say I am proudly divorced. I am so happy divorced. And I also say things like abuse doesn’t work out for a lot of people, but it worked out so well for me. Because everything that I have gained from learning about the signs of a toxic relationship and the strategies of protecting myself, has been invaluable. Like our confidence just grows day by day. That little voice in our heads and that little like charge that feels like I’m doing something wrong or I can’t do this or I can’t do that just starts to fade away. And life feels so free and wonderful. I’m so happy for you. It’s wonderful. Good job. Iris: Thank you, thank you for starting BTR and your podcasts were such a beacon for me too. Before I started group of these voices saying, “You’re not alone, you’re not crazy.” Listening to your voice, I still probably need to hear that a lot, because he makes me feel crazy. So thank you. Anne: Well, thank you, without women like you who listen and come and use our services, we wouldn’t be here. So thank you. Our services are incredible. Our team is incredible. It’s such a safe place. THE DIFFERENCE WITH BTR SERVICES Anne: I’ve been thinking a lot about the difference between BTR and the difference in our services is that it’s so real. You really have women you can see who know your story. You can talk to them every single day in person . And they’re never going to blame you or judge you. It’s never going to be that you made some kind of soul contract, like the weird stuff that you might hear from people who somehow try to blame you. I’m like, there’s no reason to ever say any of it had anything to do with you. because you were surviving the best you could the whole time, and you were going for help, and no one gave you the right information. And none of that has anything to do with you. They are helping you deal with the signs of a toxic relationship. That’s the crazy thing about abuse. You’re doing every single thing right and you still can’t get the right information. Despite you trying to get it for years. Some people don’t believe it, because they can’t imagine that would happen. But it happens every day with so many women all over the world. Anyway, thank you for your support of BTR. Iris: It is really such a privilege to be in this community. I felt, loved on and prayed for fiercely. BTR GIVES US THE STRATEGIES THAT WE NEED Iris: I remember when I first started. I thought they’re giving us the weapons that we need to fight the battle. Almost under the cover of darkness. They sort of come into our homes, our cars, our closets, and give us the weapons we need to fight the evil that is happening to all of us. Like all of a sudden realizing the support, but also the education that BTR does, is invaluable, to help us recognize and deal with the signs of a toxic relationship. I could get out of my reactive brain and really start to think, “Oh, this is what’s happening. Okay, this is what I can do. Chuck is doing this. This is what I’ve always done, but I don’t have to do that. I can do this.” It changed everything. Anne: Well, I am so glad, thank you so much, Iris, for taking the time to share your story with me today. Iris: Thank you.
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  How to Prepare for Divorce: 4 Critical Things 23.06.2026 35dk

  Many women quietly search how to prepare for divorce long before they say anything out loud. Preparing for divorce isn’t just paperwork. It’s emotional, strategic, and deeply personal. How To Prepare for Divorce: A Practical Guide for Women Below are four essential steps to help you prepare for divorce with clarity. 1. Get Educated About Divorce When women start researching how to prepare for divorce, they often focus only on legal logistics. But emotional and communication strategies matter just as much. It’s important to understand… How to set boundaries during separation How some spouses escalate when control shifts What communication patterns protect you What NOT to disclose too early 2. Profile Your Husband One of the most overlooked parts of learning how to prepare for divorce is predicting how your husband will react. Why this matters: Divorce often changes dynamics. A man who seemed calm in marriage may become reactive when he realizes he is losing control. Knowing likely behaviors ahead of time allows you to: Plan communication carefully Avoid unnecessary confrontations Protect documentation Prepare emotionally Strategic preparation reduces chaos. The Living Free Workshop walks women through identifying patterns so they can anticipate reactions before filing papers. 3. Find the Right Emotional Support Preparing for divorce can feel isolating. Even strong, capable women feel shaken. You may need: A space to process fear Validation when others minimize Guidance on specific issues that aren’t covered on divorce “checklists” Community with women who understand A support group like Betrayal Trauma Recovery provides emotional support tailored specifically for women navigating betrayal and separation. The team at Betrayal Trauma Recovery are not just certified divorce coaches, they’re trauma-informed coaches who understand the emotional toll of deception, gaslighting, and chronic instability. Divorce may be a legal process, but it’s also an emotional journey. Having the right support can make the difference. 4. Have Hope That You Can Thrive After Divorce When researching how to prepare for divorce, many women feel fear about the unknown: What will life look like? Will I regret this? Will my kids be okay? Can I really rebuild? Worry is normal. But listening to stories from other women who have walked this road can provide strength. The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast shares real experiences from women who navigated divorce and found clarity, safety, and stability on the other side. Hearing those stories can help you see that divorce isn’t the end of your story. Transcript: How To Prepare For Divorce Anne: I have asked my friend Debra Doak author of High Conflict Divorce for Women, Your Guide to Coping Skills and Learning Strategies for All Stages of Divorce. So for women wondering how to prepare for divorce, this interview is for you. Welcome Debra. Debra: Thank you. I’m thrilled to be here. How Common Is Divorce Regret? Anne: So many women who have been through a divorce are like, ah, things would have gone so much better if I would have known this. Or if I would have known that. Debra: We don’t know what we don’t know. And as traumatized women, we often either underreact or overreact. Both of those things can put us in a poor position when it comes to divorce. We’re also often the lower earners, or stay at home parents, and can get hurt quickly in this process if not prepared, get caught off guard. We’re also more likely to make emotional decisions, instead of strategic decisions looking out for long-term well-being. And as we know, we are also likely to trust when trust isn’t really deserved. When you trust an untrustworthy person in divorce, sometimes that can come back to bite you. Anne: A lot of women aren’t interested in doing the Living Free Workshop, even though it’s for married, separated and divorced women. It’s just about strategy, but they don’t want to do it because they think. I only need to think about strategy in the worst case scenario. They want to focus on their marriage working out. Debra: When women are trying to make that stay, wait, or go decision. Having been through betrayal trauma myself, we take baby steps. Let’s get copies of financial documents, get a little more in the loop on finances. Let’s start setting a little money aside. So we kind of just put the tip our toe in the water of getting ready. Observing from a Safe Distance Debra: While we’re going to give 150%, 100% to the marriage, and maybe 50 or 40 percent to setting yourself up just in case. Anne: Yeah, that’s exactly what the Living Free Workshop is about, how to observe from a safe distance. While determining his true character, what reality anticipates is what’s going to happen next. Also focusing on your own goals. So there is a section of Living Free that educates women about divorce. If they’re not interested, they can skip that part. But it’s just basic divorce education, which is important for every woman to have no matter what her situation is. Debra: Yeah, definitely is. I mean, preparation makes any divorce go more smoothly. Because when we act out of fear, we don’t make good decisions. And so even if you don’t have a high conflict person, divorce can still be very conflicted. In the case where you’ve been with an emotional abuser, you need to be prepared for what could happen. There’s a great test to see if he’s emotionally abusive, click here for that. The sense of entitlement that’s allowed them to behave in the ways they’ve behaved during the marriage. It is also a sense of entitlement that can cause a switch to flip when the woman decides to divorce them. Anne: Yeah, it’s hard to even wrap your head around the fact that they might flip that switch. And that happened in my case, it happens in almost every case I see. Where a woman was manipulated to think he would always pay child support or alimony. How To Secretly Prepare For Divorce Anne: And to be in the position where he’s not even remotely, the person you thought he was, is so alarming. And because we’ve all been through that stage where we think, he’s not going to do that to me. That’s not going to happen to me. I think all women, I mean, in high school or college, or somewhere, we all need education about divorce. Debra: For the women who don’t believe it’s going to happen to them. A common, what I call, dirty divorce trick is spousal starvation, and suddenly he reroutes that paycheck. Now you don’t have gas and groceries. What are you going to do? I hope your husband is a nice guy and negotiates fairly throughout, but what harm would it do if we had a little emergency savings account? What would it hurt if you took a few steps to protect you just in case? Anne: Yeah, because as you start getting healthier and setting boundaries. They will either improve, and they’re going to get it, or they’re going to get worse. But it’s not going to stay the same. Debra: It’ll change one way or the other. Either they will have a sense of guilt, remorse and empathy. Or, like I said, that sense of entitlement will come bubbling to the surface, and suddenly it becomes their money. And how dare you? So we just ask the what if questions. You’ve had a friend that went through a bad divorce. What if your husband did that? Maybe take a few baby steps to protect yourself. How To Financially Prepare For Divorce Debra: In this day and age, it seems like betrayal is rampant. Sometimes it’s financial betrayal. And sometimes they actually don’t know for sure. They don’t have any proof, but a wife knows the truth. She may not know the facts, but she knows the truth. When you’re with an emotional abuser, there’s often financial abuse involved. So women may not have access to information about their marital finances. That makes it hard to get started if you don’t even know what’s on the table to be divided. If you don’t have access to your own money. So that makes things really hard. Often the abuse will still keep her in a one-down position. And she still feels like she doesn’t have the power and voice to stand up for what she deserves. Anne: To all my listeners, this is important. They’re going to get mad no matter what. So please don’t make decisions thinking, okay, he’s going to get mad if I do this. So I’m not going to do it to avoid making him mad. He’s going to be mad, no matter what. So just do whatever you want. That’s very, very important. Because so many women are trying to stop the abuse by doing what he wants. And that is not going to happen. Debra: Not at all. Not at all. Women in abusive situations need to start creating this exit strategy in stealth mode. So that when he gets crazy, she’s at least got a few things in place. So she has copies of financial documents in a safe space, because they disappear. She’s got some money set aside because money disappears. Those kinds of things. How To ThrivE After Divorce Debra: There are no winners in divorce. So everyone walks away feeling like they didn’t get what they wanted. One thing I see often with betrayed women is expecting the court system to mete out emotional justice. He cheated on me, so why do I have to do with less? Why do I have to live in a small apartment? Why do I have to drive a used car? Whatever the what if is or why. And unless it’s something really egregious that’s going to shock the court, there’s no emotional justice. What we want to come away from a divorce with is a settlement where we made intentional decisions. And that we can feel good about. So we had all the information we needed, and every choice was intentional. Sometimes you will give up something that you were entitled to in order to get something else. And that’s okay, as long as it was an intentional decision as you prepare for divorce. So we just don’t want to come away feeling like we were missing information or a victim. Because what that does, and you’ll get this, it impacts their ability to recover from it afterwards. Divorce can be a bump in the road. It doesn’t have to be your destination. And so the more empowered you feel during the process, even though crappy things are happening, and he’s mean and unfair. And you may not get everything you want. If you can feel like you were informed you’re going to recover and move through that healing phase so much faster. Anne: Yeah. that’s the point of the Living Free Workshop. How To Prepare For Divorce Emotionally Anne: On our BTR Team, our coaches are betrayal trauma coaches. They’re also certified divorce coaches, so they can walk you through this and help you implement the Living Free strategies. They can help you prepare and stealth mode. Like she was talking about. The other thing our coaches do is help you work through those emotions. Debra: Yeah, when we talk about preparing for divorce, I talk about two people you need on your team. And that’s, I call a BFF backup. This is the person you can call at three in the morning, who can pick your kids up from school. Who knows what you’re thinking before you do. When they say, how are you? And you say, I’m okay. They go, no, you’re not. So you need a BFF backup and a taskmaster. Your taskmaster friend is someone who might not sit with their arm around you, but there’s someone who will research attorneys for you. We’ll do all the real estate legwork. We’ll go to the grocery for you. Someone who will do the things that you’re too emotionally crippled to even deal with. And then you need a safe place to share and be real. Because emotional regulation is key during this process, and by regulating or managing your emotions, I don’t mean stuffing them. What I mean is having some place safe with a coach, a super healthy friend or family member to get that stuff out. So that you can be strategic in your planning, and you want to have a safe place to get those emotions out. And then you also want to get the affirmation that what you’re feeling is normal as you prepare for divorce. Preparation For Divorce​ makes A Huge Difference Debra: Women say, I can’t remember where my keys are. I’m crying all the time. Of course you are. Of course, you feel that way. Look at what you’re going through. In divorce care, they tell you that sometimes, I think 80 percent of your brain can be occupied with thoughts about divorce. If you think about a computer, 80 percent of your computer’s RAM is busy processing thoughts about the divorce. And only 20 percent is available for your daily living. Of course, you’re going to forget your keys. Anne: Here are two concrete examples. I wasn’t able to read written instructions well. And so I asked a friend whose daughter was in my son’s preschool at the time. My son and her daughter were going to the same preschool, and we would get these emails or texts about what was happening. I couldn’t process them. I would try. I’d look at them and I’d be like, Oh, something about a hat. You know, I couldn’t figure it out. And so I asked her, I said, I can’t process written information in these emails and texts. So keep this in mind when your preparing for divorce. If something is important, will you please call me or send a text and say, send him in a hat like the simplest text possible? Just one thing, so I didn’t have to read the explanation or whatever, and she was happy to do that for me. And so she would call or send me a very simple text. Now, a lot of people don’t have a friend like that, but I think they can develop a friend like that. Help With Divorce Paperwork Anne: There might be someone who goes to church with you, someone in your neighborhood, another woman maybe who has been through it, who you didn’t realize who could help you out. It’s scary to ask, but I have found that a lot of people say yes. I think the scariest part is actually asking. Debra: It is. People will tell you, if you need anything, let me know. But they don’t know what you need. But they really do want to help. If you have a leaking faucet, someone wants to fix it for you. Someone wants to help you go over your documents. Someone wants to help you do those things. They don’t say that out of routine or ritual. They want to help. Because they just don’t know what you need. Anne: I think another traumatic situation here is the person who used to fix your faucet. And the person who helped you with your legal documents is your husband. There’s this other element of I need help, and the person who is helping me isn’t here, and what do I do? I’m alone! Like, he used to fix the faucet. That is also really traumatic through this time. Debra: It is because for your support, you need a coach, an attorney, a financial person. But you need to think ahead, so that you can keep yourself more centered and stable. Anne: This is why you need all these people in your corner. Because you’re rightfully and normally reacting to a really, really hard situation when you’re preparing for divorce. Debra: Exactly, it’s normal. Of course you are. Let’s get you set up for success. Make Self-care a Priority When Filing For Divorce​ Anne: Because if you say you should be able to handle this, why can’t you read? Why can’t you blah, blah, blah. You’re just going to get more and more depressed and overwhelmed. Debra: Right, yeah. Just to know that it’s normal. There are things you’re going to have trouble with. So how can we put measures in place to fill those gaps until you’re ready? And it might be a month, and it might be six months, but let’s think through who can help you. And that’s one of the things your taskmaster can do. Your taskmaster can find other people. Well, who can fix my faucet? Who can cut my grass? Who can do these things? Your taskmaster friend can do that. Anne: What do you believe are the most important things for listeners facing a high conflict divorce to know ahead of time? Debra: First of all, self care. When we’re going through a stressful time, one of our first tendencies is to cut back on self care. Because we have our normal life. Plus, now I have to fit in attorney appointments and financial appointments. And like I’ve added to my daily stress. And so we tend to cut back on self care, but what you need to do is double it. Because especially if you were in an abusive marriage, you developed coping mechanisms to get through the day with that partner. Those aren’t going to work anymore during divorce, so you have to make sure your tank is full. So increasing self care is important. We talked about safe people and a support team. You cannot do divorce alone. It’s too hard. You’re too traumatized. So get the right people around you as you prepare for divorce. Using Social Media During A Divorce Debra: Work on regulating your emotions so that you can make strategic decisions. Get the right help to process them. Vent to safe people. Because you want to make decisions you feel good about. Again, you may not get everything you want, but you at least want to feel empowered and informed. Shut down your social media. Block everyone he’s friends with. If his family supports him, block them, unfriend them. Don’t post anything. Live like a nun, especially if you’re going to be in a custody battle. Anne: I could not agree more. I deleted all my social media accounts, and I would highly recommend that for people. Debra: Don’t be out at a concert with a cocktail in your hand. Just don’t do it. Even though it’s fun and you want to show your friends that you went to the Jimmy Buffett concert, don’t do it. And then be careful of Switzerland friends. Those are people, they love both of you. He’s a great guy. We just want to be friends with both of you. No, absolutely not. And you don’t have to be cold or cruel about it, but take a step back. If you run in the same circles and you’re around them, just be very cautious what you say. Don’t discuss your divorce. Don’t discuss your partner. We talked about Switzerland friends, shutting down your social media, those kind of things. If you don’t keep control of yourself and what you say and do, it could be used against you. So it can hurt your case. If you’re preparing for divorce you need to keep this in mine, if you act out or send that email or send that text. Those things could be used against you. So it’s not in your best interest. How To Mentally Prepare For A Divorce Debra: Other people can get hurt when you’re not managing your emotions, and specifically your children. It’s the hardest thing to model healthy behavior to your children while you’re under this stress. It’s the hardest thing you’ll ever do in your life. Yet it’s the most important thing. And then finally, and you talked about this, we can’t make good decisions when we’re crying, and we can’t think about it. And our brain isn’t working right. So being able to maintain that sense of calm and clarity and focus on our purpose. Focus on the end game instead of living in the moment. Is critical to making good decisions as you prepare for divorce. Anne: Did you watch Marriage Story? Debra: I did. The emotion of it didn’t surprise me, the hurt, you know, the pain, the anger. What surprised me was how realistic their portrayal was of how our legal system creates litigious situations. When they don’t have to be. Anne: It was interesting that he had an affair, so there’s a betrayal. I listened to Pop Culture Happy Hour. They reviewed it, and they were like, this is a situation where you’ve got a nice man and a nice woman, and this is how divorce goes. They didn’t weigh the betrayal at all. It carried no weight in terms of fault. Instead, they focused on the idea that the couple had grown apart or weren’t really compatible. And I thought this is why so many women feel so betrayed in general. Because society in general doesn’t understand this. Although it showed the legal system well, I don’t think it got to the heart of the cause. Preparing For Divorce: Common Themes Debra: I agree. They glossed over the betrayal, and I think that’s just so indicative of culture. Culture says, eh, no big deal. Or culture says, well, you know, she wasn’t sleeping with him, so what’s a guy supposed to do? That patriarchal attitude is still so prevalent in society that nobody blinked at that. Anne: I know, I thought the part where her attorney, Nora, said you have to be perfect, and he doesn’t have to be perfect. It was so spot on. Debra: Spot on, the judges need to hear what they want to hear, and see. This is important as you prepare for the divorce, the judges and magistrates are looking for something from you, and you better present it. Anne: Well, yeah, I mean, it’s so traumatic. There are so many reasons why divorce is so traumatic that it just overwhelms your brain, you know? Debra: There are so many reasons, and they’re always individual. But there are three common themes: money, kids, and conflict. So often, women have been kept out of the loop in terms of finances, or stay at home moms or lower earners. And they’re worried, can they support themselves? They’re often worried about the impact this will have on their children. And they’re worried about the conflict, because we know that when we’re married to abusers, they don’t like to be told no. Sometimes you have to pick your hard when we’re on the fence, and work through that decision. Because it’s also hard to stay married to an abuser. The Right Support When Preparing For Divorce Anne: The thing that so many women appreciate about Betrayal Trauma Recovery Services is that our goal is to give women information. And then to validate and support them. So there’s never going to be a time when someone comes to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, where we say you have to get divorced. We give women the education they need, give them their options, and then help them assess what’s right for them. Can you talk about how Betrayal Trauma Recovery coaches support women through making their own decisions? Debra: The first thing a Betrayal Trauma Recovery coach will do is help a woman seek peace and safety. So helping them observe their partner’s patterns of behavior, helping them set the boundaries they need. And determining if they need to set the next boundary, the next boundary, and the next boundary. So when the boundaries aren’t working and they have to set tighter or stronger boundaries, that’s when we start to see separation or financial separation or start to take those bigger steps. And so when they get to that point, that’s when the word divorce starts coming up in their mind and they start thinking, Hmm, I wonder if this will have to be the next step I take. So you can pray your husband recovers. And simultaneously, get yourself knowledgeable about what it would look like if I took this other path toward divorce. And for many women, we go back and forth for a long time. When I prepare divorce, how will I know when it’s time to go? How To Prepare For Divorce As A Woman Debra: You will have a crystalline moment of clarity. There comes for most women, a time when the heavens open up, a spotlight shines down, and you know, today’s the day. When that happens for you, when you have that moment of clarity, I want you to be ready and not afraid. So if we have all this information, you will be prepared for what divorce will look like, and you know what you’re stepping into. When the heavens open and the spotlight shines on you, and you know today’s the day, you’ll simply nod your head and say, okay. I’m not scared. Anne: And that day might never come. Debra: It might never. It might be next week, a year from now or it might never come. But if it does, you’ll be ready. Anne: There are so many things that those who have gone through divorce wish we had known long before we even started considering it. Because it would have helped prepare us. So at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, like I said before, our coaches are certified divorce coaches. They can help women anticipate things, and women can get assistance through group sessions or individual sessions. Can you talk about the difference between group and individual sessions here at BTR? The BTR Team Can Help You Prepare For Divorce Debra: Sure, Betrayal Trauma Recovery Support Group is where you can get help tackling a particular high level issue. For instance, can you give me a few tips on how to talk to a six year old about this? And so, in three or four minutes, a BTR coach might give a couple of high level tips about age appropriate conversation, great. In an individual session, they can look at your finances. Look at your budget. Talk through a strategy to get back to work. They can help you make negotiation decisions, get into the meat of it. Talk about how to pick the right attorney for your case, who else you might need on your team. Like, they can dive into the details of your particular situation that probably aren’t appropriate for group. And so you can get really individual stuff there in order to prepare for divorce. It makes a big difference to actually look at your spreadsheets and numbers, especially if you haven’t been involved in your finances. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions can educate you about some of that. Anne: Exactly, and some of that’s kind of DIY in the Living Free Workshop, or if you need help implementing those strategies, you can do Group or Individual Sessions. So, if a woman is listening and she thinks divorce might be in her future, what are some of the first steps that she should take? Debra: The first thing I want to say is what you shouldn’t do. Please do not tell your spouse. I don’t want you to put that out there until you can get educated about it in the workshop. Just make sure you aren’t deciding not to divorce, because a fear that’s not rooted in truth is standing in your way. Here’s How To Financially Prepare For Divorce​ Debra: A woman who lived in the San Francisco Bay area where it’s expensive. She thought I can never ever afford to leave. There’s no way. I’m miserable, I want to leave, but I can’t afford to. And when she looked at the numbers, her budget was only short a thousand dollars a month. Then she thought, I can find a way to earn two hundred and fifty dollars a week. So is that fear holding you back? Make sure it’s not a false fear that’s holding you back. I’m not trying to get you to decide, I just want you to have truth. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, it’s all about truth. All truth all the time. Anne: Yeah, and it’s painful, especially when so many of us come from a religious background. So it feels like maybe “betraying” our husband. I’m going to say that in quotes, because obviously we’re not, because he betrayed us. Also in so many ways it feels like we’re betraying God. Debra: So that’s another one of those fears. Decide to face our fears. See if they’re real. Because regardless of the conflict and regardless of the parenting. For the most part, divorce is breaking a legal contract about money. That’s what many decisions will be about. That’s what the law is written about. So, understand the money involved as your preparing for divorce. Do you have access to your tax returns, your husband’s pay stub, or W 2? Do you know how much is in your retirement account? How much your house is worth? What’s the balance on your mortgage? Do you know what your monthly expenses are? It’s good to have the financial information before you consult with an attorney, so that an attorney can estimate of spousal support and child support. How To Tell Your Husband You Want A Divorce Debra: That’s what we need to help fill in our budget. If one of your fears is, well, I’ve been a stay at home mom, I don’t think I can support myself. Well, then the income line in your budget will be mostly child support and spousal support. So that’s important information to know. So gather some of the financials before you consult with an attorney. That way, that meeting will be much more productive for you. Anne: If a woman decides she wants to divorce, she’s prepared. She’s worked with a Betrayal Trauma Recovery coach. She’s done everything she needs to do, and she’s ready to do it. When is the right time to tell her husband that she wants a divorce? Debra: You are an expert on your husband. One of the preparation steps, and you’ll go through this in the workshop, is setting up a bank account. And making sure you have emergency funds, because a dirty divorce trick abusers like to play is move their paycheck and not give you access to any money. So if you think that’s the case, you tell him the same day you file the paperwork. Anne: So many women in our community, me included, did not think our husband was like that. And then we found out that he is like this. It was shocking to us during the divorce process. Like in my case, he shut down our bank account. And really, the abuse starts to be very overt. Where perhaps, before it was covert. For me, it was shocking and upsetting, but it was also like, I guess, I made the right decision. When Can You File For Divorce? Debra: It’s confirmation, yeah. Anne: Yeah, because it was like, whoa, when divorcing an abusive husband, he’s getting more and more deliberate and harmful through this, not less. And it will hurt you, but you can also think, Oh, okay, this is another sign that I’m making the right decision. Debra: We, as women, have such a tendency to wait until the bullets start flying before we put on our armor. And I want women in abusive relationships to know, if he says, don’t worry, I’m going to be fair. Don’t worry, I’ll always take care of you and the kids. If this is a person who’s been deceiving you for a decade, I’m not sure we should take that statement at face value. Let’s prepare for divorce and assume it’s not true. And if it turns out that he negotiates in good faith and takes care of you, that’ll be a bonus. Anne: Because this is someone who looked you straight in the eye and said, of course, I’m faithful to my marriage vows and had an affair. Debra: Let’s just make sure we have on our Kevlar vest just in case. So the best time to tell him is when it’s done. This is another thing a Betrayal Trauma Recovery coach can help with is preparing you for that conversation. One alternative is not to have the conversation. If you are already separated, you can simply file and have him served. If you want to have the conversation, the conversation is very simple. It’s, this is a decision I’ve made, it’s what I need to do for me. What Happens When You File For Divorce​ Debra: When he rails against it, you can say, I hear you’re mad, I hear you’re upset, I hear this isn’t the way you wanted it to go. This is the decision I’ve made for me. He’s gonna throw accusations at you, and you don’t need to defend yourself. You don’t need to explain why you chose to do it. Or you don’t have to tell him all the ways he hurt you. You simply repeat, this is a decision I felt like I needed to make. Anne: Yeah, because as I explained in the Living Free Workshop, if you try to explain it, or you’re hoping somehow, you can get some resolution with an emotional abuser like this. It’s not going to go that way. He’s going to use it to abuse you more. Debra: Correct, we don’t mention divorce when we prepare until we are doing it. It is never a threat. It’s never an incentive. It’s never a punishment. So, this conversation is only a notification conversation. Then he may throw declarations, you’ll never get a penny, you’ll never see the children, I’m getting full custody, you’ll be homeless. Whatever these declarations are, my best response is to say, we’ll see, that’s it. This is not a time where you’re going to negotiate, don’t fight back, don’t explain, you simply say, this is a decision that I feel like I need to make. If he throws those accusations or declarations out, you simply say, we’ll see, and that’s it. that’s the end of the conversation. Anne: Yep, I learned the hard way, which was why I was so passionate about writing the Living Free Workshop. Because I didn’t want any other woman to learn the hard way. The Best Preparation For Divorce: The Living Free Workshop Anne: But I totally get it. If you’re listening and you’re like. I don’t want to do the Living Free Workshop. I’m not interested in learning about this. I get it. Because I was there for a long time too. In my own experience, I just wish I had known what I know now. That’s all. And that’s why I want to share it with you. Especially because the strategies in the Living Free Workshop feel so counterintuitive. It’s not like anything a therapist will tell you or anybody else. It’s completely different. Debra: Yes. Anne: Can you go deeper about why it’s important to work with someone who understands this abuse dynamic when they’re getting a divorce. Instead of just getting support from like a regular therapist, or even trying to get emotional support from your attorney or sister? Debra: I just demonstrated one of them, helping you plan for that conversation so that it goes well and you can stay as safe as possible in that conversation. If you let your emotions, or your amygdala, your fight, flight, or freeze, reflex, drive what you’re doing in the divorce. You won’t fare as well. If a coach can keep you calm and emotionally regulated, so that you can make informed strategic decisions. You will do a lot better emotionally, financially and relationally. You’ll be a better mom through the process. You’ll help your kids navigate the process better. Your attorney is not an expert on the emotions in divorce. They’re an expert in the legal process. Anne: Many women want to talk to their attorney a lot, getting validation from their attorney. Or even want their attorney to be their therapist, which is an expensive way to go. How To Start Preparing for divorce Anne: The Living Free Workshop and Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group are much less expensive than an attorney’s hourly fee. Debra: And they’re better at it. Anne: Yeah. Debra: Just to say that. They’re better at supporting women in trauma when they prepare for divorce. An attorney is not skilled at it, trained at it, and they haven’t been through it. Anne: Don’t look to your attorney for emotional support or validation or anything like that. It’s not what they’re trained to do, and it will be frustrating and extremely expensive. Debra: And they won’t help you be a better mom, stay grounded, and make the best decisions for you. They’ll tell you what the law says about how it works. Mediation can be a decent choice, but you have to be prepared for that. And you need someone strong in your corner helping you prepare for mediation. Anne: To get more information about the Living Free Workshop, click this link. It’s amazing. It’s helpful. You also need support. And that’s what Betrayal Trauma Recovery group sessions are all about. Group sessions you can get in every day. It’s an amazing resource. So thanks for your help today. Debra. Debra: I love it. I love it. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is an amazing organization. it’s what I wish I’d had. Anne: Yeah, me too.
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  Emotional Abuse Checklist: What You Need To Know for Sure 16.06.2026 42dk

  If you’re searching for an emotional abuse checklist, you’re looking for clarity. I’m an emotional abuse expert. My team has helped over 8,000 clients identify emotional abuse and thrive. And I’ve noticed that most victims of emotional abuse in marriage have been told, “You’re too sensitive,” or “You expect too much.” You’ve probably wondered, Is it me? Emotional abuse is often subtle. It hides in half-truths and conversations that never quite resolve. This emotional abuse checklist will give you a clear picture of the patterns. Because emotional abuse isn’t just isolated incidents. To learn more, take my free emotional abuse test. What Is Emotional Abuse? Emotional abuse is a pattern of behavior used to control, confuse, belittle, intimidate, or dominate another person. But it likely won’t feel that way. It’s usually not obvious yelling or cruelty. Many emotionally abusive men seem like really nice guys. That’s why having an emotional abuse checklist matters. Emotional Abuse Checklist Use this checklist to look for patterns. One isolated moment does not mean someone is emotionally abusive. Repeated patterns do. 1. Chronic Lying Your husband lies about serious matters, such as: His whereabouts How he uses his time Money or financial decisions Porn use or masturbation Emotional or sexual affairs The real reasons for his actions When confronted, he minimizes, deflects, or becomes angry. 2. Withholding Information He: Rarely shares his thoughts or feelings Says, “You wouldn’t be interested” Gives vague or incomplete answers Plays dumb when asked direct questions Refuses to provide financial transparency Withholds access to accounts or income details Walks out when discussions get serious Withholding is a way of controlling your perceptions. 3. Discounting Your Thoughts and Feelings He says things like: “You’re too sensitive.” “You’re jumping to conclusions.” “You blow everything out of proportion.” “You always have something to complain about.” “Why do you always twist everything around.” “You’re looking for a fight.” He says your valid concerns are unreasonable. 4. Mood Control He: Makes the house tense with his moods Refuses to acknowledge obvious problems Pretends everything is fine when it clearly isn’t Everyone adjusts to him. 5. Disparages You, But Disguises It as A “Joke” He says: “You’re my ball and chain.” “You would get it if you were smarter.” “What else can you expect from a woman?” “Your blond is showing.” When you object, he responds: “You don’t have a sense of humor.” “You can’t take a joke.” Humiliation disguised as humor is still humiliation. 6. Blocking Conversation He: Pretends not to hear you Looks at his phone while you talk Storms out mid-conversation Says, “The discussion is ended.” Rolls his eyes while saying, “Quit yakking.” Says “Who asked for your opinion?” Stonewalling is a control tactic. 7. Financial Secrets When you ask about money, he says: “You have plenty.” “I’m not going through receipts.” “It’s too complicated for you.” “All you married me for is my money.” “Do I have to account for every penny?” He shifts accountability back onto you. 8. False Accusations When you raise concerns, he says: “You don’t respect me.” “You don’t love me.” “You’ve never supported me.” “If you won’t have sex with me, who are you having it with?” He accuses you of things that aren’t true. 9. Blame Shifting He says: “When you pester me, of course I get mad.” “I wouldn’t look at porn if you met my needs.” “I was going to do it, but not if you keep bugging me.” He blames his bad behavior on you. 10. Character Attacks Instead of addressing issues, he says: “The trouble with you is…” “You’re stupid.” “Really? It’s like you’re never satisfied.” “You’re a bad mom.” “You don’t care about anyone.” He attacks your identity. 11. Trivializing Accomplishments He minimizes your efforts: Makes sarcastic comments about your projects Dismisses your work as insignificant Claims shared ownership of what you built alone You feel small instead of supported. 12. Undermining the Family He: Prioritizes his wants over family needs Disappears for hours or days Leaves you to manage all responsibilities Makes decisions without considering impact The family orbits around his desires. 13. “Forgetting” or Denying Reality He says: “I never said that.” “You’re making that up.” “We never had that conversation.” “You’re upset about nothing.” This is gaslighting. Over time, you question your memory. 14. Ordering and Demanding He says: “Get rid of this.” “You’re not wearing that.” “Shut that off.” He commands rather than collaborates. 15. Subtle Threats He says: “If you act like that, I’m going to…” “When you do that, it makes me very angry.” “If you won’t meet my needs, I get depressed.” Threats do not have to be overt to be effective. 16. Anger as Control He: Yells Glares Punches walls Throws objects Gets inches from your face Unpredictable anger creates fear. Emotional Abuse Checklists Don’t Always Include The Subtle Signs Many people imagine abuse as screaming and violence. But emotional abuse is often quiet. Controlled. Strategic. It can look like kindness or even indifference. It can look like charm in public and cruelty in private. That invisibility is what makes an emotional abuse checklist so important. Emotional abusers often: Groom their partners with affection and charm Alternate between warmth and coldness Appear generous to others Build a public image of “good guy” The contrast creates cognitive dissonance. You may trust him more than you trust yourself. Healing begins when you rebuild trust in your own perception. What To Do If This Emotional Abuse Checklist Feels Familiar The confusion, grief, and destabilization of emotional abuse can feel overwhelming. No woman should process it alone. Betrayal Trauma Recovery offers daily Group Sessions in multiple time zones where women can: Share experiences safely Learn practical emotional safety strategies Rebuild trust in themselves Gain clarity without pressure You can also get more education about emotional abuse. Listen to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast Transcript: Emotional Abuse Checklist: How to Know for Sure Anne: We have a member of our community sharing her story today. We’re going to call her Macie. I’m so thankful to all of you who have shared your story. It takes a lot of courage, and it humbles me to hear your stories and I appreciate you. Macie is a single mom. And let’s start with your story. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first? Macie: I did not. I actually did not recognize or was even made aware. I just thought our marriage was normal, happy, healthy, that he was such a great guy. And one of the most selfless people I had ever met. And that was pretty difficult when I started to understand what my marriage really was. He had texted that he wanted a divorce. And not knowing the magnitude of his betrayal and all those choices that he was making. Just the stonewalling, the communication dysfunction, the emotional abuse is so hard. But in my mind, that was not even possible. And because of the type of abuse. It was the withdrawal and not communicate, control that way. Versus the yelling or control by physical demeaning. It was never like that ever. So the emotional abuse is so hard to see until I actually had the truth of the whole story. To see, oh, now I can tell where the manipulation and the blame shifting and all that was taking place. Anne: This type of abuse, it’s not overt. Not like screaming and yelling in your face. And people don’t have the education to see it, and many therapists don’t. You’re in this relationship and you don’t know what’s going on, but you know something’s wrong. Why Emotional Abuse Is So Confusing Anne: During that time, what types of things did you do to try to establish safety and peace in your home before you found out about the pornography use and infidelity? Macie: Again, we had what I thought was a healthy, happy marriage. I feel like a lot of it was, a lot of communication with the children. We both were on the same page about talking to them about pornography. We agreed we wanted to talk to them about it, just like we did drugs or alcohol or anything else. And we both come from families where we have a predisposition for addiction. And so we would explain to them, it didn’t matter what. It could be something. We don’t know what it is, so we need to abstain from many things, including pornography. So I feel like we would check in as a family a lot. We had a really open communication about sex, about social media. We had our kids sign contracts, phones were away. I feel like there was a lot of communication within the home surrounding specifically pornography. Which I feel like is ironic, now I know the truth of what he did. I do feel like that even on a spiritual level, we pray as a family, go to church, that aspect too of having the spirit with you. So those were some of the things we did. The emotional abuse is so hard now, understanding that he viewed pornography and violated my home. which of the following is true about emotional abuse​? Anne: Mm hmm. You’re talking about explicit media, you’re talking about healthy sexuality, thinking he is on the same page with you. And really, it was all just a facade. Emotional abuse is so hard. Did you have any sense then, like deep down, that something was wrong? Or did everything seem fine to you? I mean so many women are wondering, “Which of the following is true about emotional abuse​?” Macie: A year into our marriage, granted we got married in the 90s when the internet was really early. So I found pornography, and at that point I felt super hurt, betrayed and cheated on. But I feel like I never saw or knew of any pornography use from him until the actual discovery of his work phone. But I would have kind of this underlying insecurity. Because there was a lot of lying going on. And I never could pinpoint the purpose. And I learned that a part of the abuse blamed me for his lies. Because my reaction would be so much that I would maybe get too angry. So he was justified in lying to me. And it just didn’t make sense. Some of the things he would lie to me about. And I do feel like there was a lack of empathy and emotional disconnect, especially in our communication. I now see that there was a lot of withdrawal, and it took withdraw, withdraw, and then I’d finally corner him to communicate. Even if it was just me feeling overwhelmed or stressed or that I needed extra help. And it ended up an explosion, and then that’s where it led towards the end to the stonewalling. Emotional abuse is so hard: Financial Control & Lies Macie: I had to literally text him in the home to say, hey, can you meet with me so that we can talk? And I didn’t want to overwhelm him with a conversation too long, so extremely unhealthy. There were also situations with money that didn’t make sense. But he was in charge of the finances. And when I tried to get involved, he didn’t want me to. But then it was a problem that I wasn’t involved. So again, I see that he had control over that money, and he could do a lot of the things he did. Because I was not aware yet. He blamed me for not knowing what was going on. I read some emotional abuse quotes, but they were usually about yelling or saying “You’re stupid” so they didn’t seem to apply to me. ​And several gaps in time, he traveled a lot. He missed many flights. Or they bumped him. And again, it was him saying, hey, I’m getting bumped. So we can have a flight that we can use later for us. But really, he used it for other purposes, and disregard for me. I did not feel like a priority, and I had an injury experience. I think that was the first time I realized how unempathetic he was to me. He just looked at me like I’m leaving town and had a broken ankle. He’s like, I’m out of here for the week and good luck. And I just cried thinking how can this be possible? Emotional abuse is so hard. But I still didn’t want to leave my emotionally abusive husband. Understanding emotional abuse Macie: I have these busy children, and what is going on? I felt like he had changed, but I could never pinpoint it. I feel like if I tried to ask questions, it was always I’m this simple person. It’s you, and so I just knew I had to work hard on me all the time. Because everything was falling apart because of me. He was simple and didn’t require a lot, and he wasn’t mean and angry at me. And he just laid low and kept the peace. He wanted me to tell him what to do, then he couldn’t mess up and I wouldn’t get upset. I did not like that dynamic in our marriage either. Because I felt like this dominant person, but I want to be a team though. I want to work together. Well again, with the withdrawal and communication. When I tried to muster up the courage to talk to him, it would end with me feeling like I don’t value him. And how hard he works, and all the things he does around the house. And I just need to be content with how things are. I now see how sad I was not even allowed, or feel like I could even cry in our relationship. Like to him that it was that emotionally disconnected for me. I gave him all I was: my good, my bad, my stress, my anxiety, wanting to work with him together as a union. Then to see that, not only that, but also to see that he used my strengths against me to do what he wanted to do. Each episode of emotional abuse is so hard to see. When I understood the truth of the emotional abuse and saw that was what he was doing. Emotional Abuse Quotes​ Didn’t Help Anne: Many people don’t understand that stonewalling and not talking about things are forms of controlling the conversation. And people will think, well, he just can’t talk about his emotions, or now’s not the right time. Those type of abusive behaviors are controlling. They’re controlling the conversation, they’re controlling the way you can communicate. And that makes it very difficult, emotional abuse is so hard. You can’t be on the same team when one person’s goal is to shut things down, and make sure she doesn’t find out about things. He’s gaslighting you, and so you’re thinking, well, the problem is me, so I need to love, serve and forgive more. When did you realize that this isn’t working? Did you ever get a sense before he filed for divorce? That, man, I am loving, serving, forgiving, and things just aren’t getting that much better. Macie: I wasn’t googling, “What are the 7 signs of emotional abuse?” Or looking for an emotional abuse checklist because I didn’t even think of that. ​I would go to him with a pad of paper and have him give me a list of things that I would need to work on. And I was just trying to love him more and value him more at work, and never ask questions when he traveled. I do feel like he used those things again. I’m going through therapy working on me, and instead it helped him do what he wanted better. Discovering His Lies Was Just One Emotional Abuse Example I mean, he lived two lives. So it made it easier to be like, well, okay, now I’m a good husband and a great dad. And so she’s happy, Which means she’s not going to question any of this other behavior. So it wasn’t until actual discovery that I realized his layer of lies was actually to get what he wanted. And that was really disturbing for me. Emotional abuse is so hard. Especially when you look at 21 years, you know? Anne: So you’ve got this marriage where something’s not quite right, you’re working harder, you’re trying. Tell me how you found the work phone. Talk about what led up to that, that day. Macie: I think that was one of the things you talk about little red flags, things going off. I did feel like he was being unfaithful. I felt like pornography was involved, but simultaneously I trusted him. He was a spiritual person. So to me whenever I had those feelings, I thought I must be the worst person for even assuming or thinking any of these thoughts. And as I worked, I believed he was also working on our marriage together. Because he didn’t want to go to couples therapy. We’re both individually working on ourselves. And one of the things was to make a date night together or spend more time together, but there were still some inconsistencies there. And I felt like I was definitely pulling more of the weight. Unfortunately, on Christmas morning at two in the morning, I happened to just roll over. And saw his phone, and I could see the truth of a conversation he had with a girl he had been on the phone with through the night. Discovering the Betrayal Was Emotional Abuse Macie: And again, the betrayal of understanding the truth, I thought Christmas Eve was dedicated to the family and us. The truth is he was communicating with this person. He had been with her the week previous. He was planning to be with her after. But additionally, it wasn’t just her. When I went out of that conversation, just to see the magnitude of all that was on his phone was unbelievable and overwhelming. Emotional abuse is so hard. I could not even believe he was capable of that, this was the same person? It was unfortunate, because of Christmas morning. I mean, that’s a day you celebrate every year, and you have so many memories attached. So I had to keep it together. I chose not to say anything. I wanted my children to experience Christmas morning as the best it could be. Because I was super emotional, which again, as I talked about in our relationship, in our marriage, we had to be okay. So my kids didn’t see me cry ever. And so when mom’s emotional and crying, they’re like, what is going on? But Christmas morning happened. Mental vs Emotional Abuse Macie: We spent time with family. And it wasn’t until later that I actually confronted him. And everything exploded from there. My goal was to wait until the next day. But that just didn’t really happen. And so it is unfortunate for my children that I feel like a day that we celebrate, and you have memories that will never go away. It’s like, how was your Christmas? Because that was the question following the discovery that I would get asked by every person. And it’s like, do you want to know the truth about how my Christmas was? How was your Christmas? So it was just that constant trigger. Anne: It’s very traumatic for it to happen on holidays. It’s terrible. Emotional abuse is so hard. Hopefully, this Christmas can be the anniversary of your freedom. Macie: Yes, and I’ve talked with the kids. So how do we embrace? I do feel like the kids triggers are different than mine. And just because their life circumstances and memories are different, and also what they know. But I feel like we’ve talked openly about what we can do, and I am really happy for them that Christmas, even Christmas morning, was great. I think the difference changed in Christmas break for them. And that will be interesting to see how to deal with that. Because mom and dad never fought. And now dad’s arguing, and he’s this new person that we’ve never seen before with this anger. So it was a confusing time for them. And then he moved out, and again, they were confused. Like mom and dad don’t fight, and now dad’s moving out. More Helpful Quotes on Emotional Abuse Macie: It was for them because the emotional abuse is so hard for them to process what was going on. Anne: And shocking, probably Macie: Shocking, absolutely shocking. Anne: You’re an amazing, smart, capable woman who is able to plan and make things happen, who graduated from college. Like, you’re no dummy. And same thing with me, and same thing with all the women who listen to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. We are capable, amazing, brave, strong women. Can you tell me your thoughts on that now that you know what you went through? Macie: Yeah, that’s a great point. I actually get asked a lot. Did you really not ever know? Like, you had no idea. And I am almost embarrassed to say I didn’t. And a lot of that was that I trusted so much in him. But I did not allow myself to trust in myself. Like, when I had my own doubts, I discounted it so easily because of my trust in him. I also think because of the type of abuse, he’s not this loud yelling person. Like I feel like emotional abuse is so hard to wrap your mind around the idea of abuse being the ability to not communicate. Like you said, his control was lack of communicating information to me. I didn’t ever know exactly what was going on. Sometimes even for work, I didn’t know exactly what he was doing. And I felt like those were his lay low, just kind of keep the peace, keep her happy enough. But made it really hard for me to say, well, no, I was not in an abusive situation. Compounding Lies & Realization He Was An Example of emotional abuse Macie: He never came at me. He was supportive to me, and would even encourage me to do things. He never said a mean thing to me ever. How am I in an abusive situation? And. I think that’s when it goes back to the lies. I just see there were so many lies. And over time, and even when he would lie to me, and I would forgive him, then it would happen again. And I felt like it was this compound of lies that I was just trying to process. Like, why are you lying to me about this? If you’re lying to me about this, what else is there? Anne: You’re saying, he never said a mean thing to me. But he did, he told you it was your fault. He told you that something was wrong with you. That is cruel. But it doesn’t feel mean, because you think it’s your fault. So many women say that. Oh, he was nice. And I’m thinking, that’s the meanest thing you could do to someone, is tell them that they’ve got a problem when it’s your problem. Macie: I have told him that he did financially, physically, spiritually, emotionally, like all the betrayal choices he made that harm our family. The one that is the most hurtful are the times he saw me depressed. He saw me feel inadequate. And he saw me crying and I had come to him asking what it is, what’s wrong and what’s going on? He knew what he was doing, but allowed me to believe it was me. And that is so hurtful. It was like a dagger to the heart. Manipulation is Covert Emotional Abuse Macie: And then to take my strengths. Like I’m a hard worker, I want to do hard things and fix things. I would help try to problem solve with him. He was so tired. So it’d be like what’s going on? Well now I know it’s because he was out all night long, he was never sleeping. But I’m thinking what’s going on? How can we problem solve? And he would just allow me to try to help fix things. And I was running on this treadmill that was spinning so fast. I see where had we gone to couple’s therapy, I would have sat there and been like, I’m doing all these things wrong and I need to work harder. It would not have been healthy. I know you’re familiar with Darvo. Anne: Yeah, really quick with Darvo we have some amazing infographics that circulate around our social media on Instagram and Facebook. So if you’re not following us there, please do, because I love to interact with women on social media and hear your comments. So if you do follow us, please comment. Let me know what you think of those infographics and if they’re helpful to you. Macie: When I look at that, it makes more sense to me. Because I would approach him with something that didn’t make sense. And then he would attack me as if like, he couldn’t believe I would believe that. He would defend himself and no, no, no. And then I’d start to feel guilty that I was accusing him or curious or insecure about something. Emotional abuse is so hard: No Validation, Just Blame Macie: Then it would turn around. He became the victim. And suddenly, I was the bad person, because I had come to him to communicate. The communication started with me and ended with me being the bad person. I’d walk away being like, how is this that I just went to him to see how I need help. That I am struggling? Yet I come away feeling like I’m an ungrateful wife. I don’t value him and recognize all the things he’s doing, so it would just come back to me. Then I’d say, okay, what can I do to make it so that he knows that I value and respect all these things, yet I didn’t feel safe. I didn’t trust him. I didn’t feel like I was a priority and was not validated. Instead, it was well, that’s your fault. That’s your fault that you feel that way. I’m a simple person. Like literally he would say to me so often, I am a simple person and I do not require a lot where you dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. Anne: You’re like, no, you actually require texting seven women, so no, you are very, very complex. Macie: Yes, I do not know how he was able to organize all that, honestly. Anne: So for you, what is one of the most difficult aspects looking back on your marriage now that you know the truth about the abuse? Macie: I know he knew the truth of what he did. I got to a point where I was so down and depressed that I actually had to go into a surgery. Feeling like I needed to go Macie: In my mind, I had made a deal with God that I just needed to be taken. My life to be done, because that was, to me, the easiest way to remove myself from the emotional abuse is so hard, and the situation of my kids having to deal with divorce. And that I was this problem. That if I could just remove myself, then everybody would be so much better off. And I left letters for my kids to read. In my mind, I was totally content with being done. And when I came out of surgery, I knew that I was going to fight, I was going to fight for my family, and I was going to do everything I could. And when I found out the truth that, while I was in surgery. He had taken money from our retirement and was putting it in a bank account for a woman he was financially supporting. That to me just blew my mind that I was ready to be done with my life. I was crying on my way up, he knew I was hurting, that I felt so bad about myself, yet he continued that behavior. And that was my low, low point in recognition. Wow, you put those two pieces together, and you see there was a major disconnect. It’s hard, because I know that there were so many lies in our marriage. Emotional abuse is so hard for me to believe anything was ever true. I believed it was good and there were some good times, but I now know that those good times were the buttering up so that he could keep me happy enough. Signing up for a girl’s trip for me, oh, what a great husband. And that’s so nice. Grooming Is Emotional Abuse Too Anne: But the truth was it was grooming. It’s what it was. He was grooming you on purpose to throw you off his scent. Macie: Yeah, that is so hurtful. I got so duped in believing this person loved me, when I don’t believe there was love in this marriage. How did that happen? And how did I not know? So trying to make sense of how as a smart, capable, independent, person, I thought I had a healthy marriage. How did I miss so much? To not know that that wasn’t love that was happening in my marriage? I felt like I was loving and giving. But it was not reciprocated. And that is emotional abuse is so hard to understand. Anne: Yeah, but it was just for him like a cover. For you, you were his facade. Macie: It blows my mind that he is still the victim. Anne: Pornography is abusive. But then he had all these other abusive behaviors. The control of the conversation, you’ve got sexual coercion going on because he’s not telling you that he’s having sex with other people. You know, there’s so much going on there that is seriously sexually abusive, which is physical abuse. So technically, your husband physically, emotionally, sexually and psychologically abused, And people just can’t comprehend that level of abuse. Macie: Right, it’s mind blowing to believe, like you said, as the person I know I am. That I lived that, believing it was healthy. Like I looked at my parents and their relationship, so in my mind, I was aiming to try to do that. Even though I felt like in my communication to him. I didn’t feel like we were a team. emotional abuse is so hard: Spiritual Journey & Reflection Macie: I felt like I was more dominant, because I tried to get him to help or communicate with me. I felt like I was constantly chasing him to try to get him to communicate with me. Anne: He wanted you to do that. He liked that because you were taking the responsibility for the entire relationship in that case. Macie: I was already doing everything. Anne: So, during this time, you consider yourself a spiritual person. You’re having prayers with your husband, you’re attending church, you’re reading the scriptures. Then you find out that God has not expressly told you in so many words, you’re in an abusive relationship. You realize that for 21 years, you were not privy to the truth. How did that affect your relationship with God? Macie: Yeah, that’s a great question. For me, there were a lot of moments along the way. As I’ve reflected on the truth. Where I can see God’s hand to protect me and even prepare me in certain ways. I had an injury that happened that at the time. My husband traveled all the time. And I was devastated. My children were extremely busy. I felt helpless and felt like, why did this happen? This is so frustrating for me. Could I have not had some inspiration to not go? It was playing softball, and I slid into third and broke my ankles. Could I have not had something to not do that? But I now see looking back that that was in many ways, God’s way of making me stop In my tracks. God’s Hand in Protection & Strength Through Adversity Macie: Because there were times when I felt red flags, but I never followed through with it. I just discounted it, but then I stopped and actually looked at my life. And started to see the truth of what it really was. I can’t deny that I felt God so present in my life. Not saying, hey, you’re in this abusive relationship. But I even lost my mom. She died of cancer when I was a teenager. And I feel like even that experience prepared me to have some different strength and perspective that I even taught my kids that helped prepare for this heartache. You know, and understanding, and so I can see where, even through the divorce, there were several things that came my way. And to come across Betrayal Trauma Recovery specifically. Because as you know, sometimes when you’re in it, sometimes a normal therapist, you’re just not getting the right information. So getting the right resources. And I feel like all those things were huge blessings. God blessing me and blessing my children and giving me strength as a mom. Just giving myself a little leeway. This emotional abuse is so hard, I’ve had to lean on other people, and that’s been a hard thing. But I’ve been so appreciative. I’m so thankful for your resources through BTR. It’s amazing, I just cannot get enough information. Trusting in God and Self Macie: I believe God knows me better than myself. Even though what I’m going through seems unfair, I look around me and see so many people going through unfair situations. And I’m thankful for believing in something bigger than myself, that helps give me strength. And I also feel like trusting in myself as I move forward in my life. Because my husband betrayed me and I don’t trust myself. I’m working through that, and that’s why I’m thankful for all your resources to validate what I’m feeling. And to build me and help me move forward as a broken, strong warrior. Anne: Healing, a healing strong warrior, and you will. Thank you so much for sharing your story today, Macie: Thanks for having me. The Emotional Abuse Checklist You Need Anne: Is emotional abuse considered domestic violence? Yes, emotional abuse is considered domestic violence. A domestic violence survivor will share her story with us today. And we’re going to explain why. Because it’s important to understand why emotional abuse is considered domestic violence. In fact, I think it’s the most important one, because physical violence never occurs without emotional abuse. So if everyone can learn to recognize emotional abuse and protect themselves from it. Your chances of physical harm go down drastically. To illustrate how emotional abuse is domestic violence. My book Trauma Mama Husband Drama. really helps, because it is an actual picture book. There are a ton of infographics in the back that illustrate this type of domestic violence and explain why emotional abuse is domestic violence. It’s an extremely quick read. So if you have people around you that are having a difficult time wrapping their heads around what you’re going through, this book is the perfect way to educate them. You can find Trauma Mama Husband Drama on this link, which is my books page. It’ll just take you to Amazon. You can also find it on Amazon. When you purchase it, circle back around and give it a five star rating, because so many women are searching for books, and they find, The Five Love Languages or Men are From Mars, books that are not helpful. So if you rate it, it’ll help women find this podcast. Which is free to everyone, even if they never purchased the book. All right. Evie’s Story: When you Can’t prove emotional abuse in court​ Anne: Now, let’s get to Evie’s story. Welcome. Evie: Thank you so much for having me. I come from a small town, so I met my husband. i had no idea his behavior was the classic example of emotional abuse. All the emotional abuse checklists I’d seen before didn’t have the subtle types of emotional abuse on them. Isolation is huge, but that was the first big hurdle he didn’t have to cross. Because I didn’t have any family or friends in this new state. Already I was vulnerable, just because I didn’t know anybody. And so it’s so much harder when your gut tells you one thing. And you don’t have anybody else that you trust to bounce those thoughts and feelings off of. Initially, there were a lot of silent red flags in our relationship. He was jealous. That didn’t sit well with me. He was very quick to say things like, I love you. And I remember he said I was like, oh. I don’t feel that way yet. It’s been like a month or two. This is very fast. He reacted negatively to the fact that I wouldn’t say it back. And I was like, I just don’t want to lie to you. So things like love bombing at the beginning. It made it that much harder when the love bombing stopped. Because he yanked that away from me. And suddenly it went from, wow, at the beginning of a relationship. All he could do was shower me with compliments and say how much he loved me. And now I’m not getting any of that. Is emotional abuse considered domestic violence? Evie: And so things like that were really big, and arguing with him was very hard. He would make me feel like I overreacted to everything, and that my reactions were not valid. And that he didn’t say or do whatever was brought up. And then I also felt very intimidated. He reminded me about other women he dated. And things he did to them when they left him. And so I remember only a couple months in. He let me know the ways he hurt other women. If I leave, what is he going to do to me? Anne: Were you aware of any exploitative material? Evie: I definitely knew that that was a thing for him. Anne: Did you find that to be a example of emotional abuse, or was it like, “Oh, everybody does this?” How did you feel about it at the time? Evie: Yeah, I don’t know that was something that was at the forefront of my mind. Anne: So you weren’t concerned about the pornography use. That wasn’t necessarily a red flag for you. For me it’s important for women to understand that emotional abuse and infidelity go hand in hand. It’s interesting to me because women who exploitative material is an issue for them. They don’t recognize, that emotional abuse is considered domestic violence? Maybe or the psychological abuse. When they find out about the use, they know something’s wrong, because they know this is a person who has told me he’s not going to use it. So the level of lying there gets intense, but he was lying to you about other things? Financial Abuse is An Example of Emotional Abuse Evie: Definitely, I found out he cheated on me, and I think I had always had that in the back of my mind. When that came out, that was huge for me, and there was some financial abuse, it was emotionally abusive as well. I was always very proud of my career and the fact that I was the first person in my family to graduate and get a degree. So when he put my career in jeopardy, that was the biggest red flag that this was a classic example of emotional abuse. I just wish I had the right emotional abuse checklist at the time, like yours. When I was with him, he took my voice away in more ways than one. And one of those was that he would constantly criticize my writing and wouldn’t let me keep journals. And so I turned to writing and sharing my story to start healing and find my voice after emotional abuse. Anne: Domestic abuse and domestic violence are interchangeable. Someone can be an emotionally violent abuser without ever laying a finger on their victim. I frequently say domestic abuse rather than domestic violence. Just so women who haven’t been hit or punched don’t think, oh, this isn’t for me because I haven’t been physically harmed. And also, many people don’t realize that emotional abuse is a domestic abuse issue. It is under the umbrella of domestic violence. It’s also very typical that it never escalates to physical abuse. Emotional Abuse vs. Physical Abuse That’s when women also get very confused. Because they try to figure out what’s wrong. At least for me and so many other victims that I know, they went through years of emotional and psychological abuse where they couldn’t quite figure it out. And then once a violent act happened. It helped them see what was happening. So I try to help them identify emotional abuse vs psychological abuse is important. To do that you need to have examples of emotional abuse. Evie: Yeah, the emotional abuse vs psychological abuse was important to figure out. The stonewalling and gaslighting have left a toll on me. It’s still something that I’m trying to heal from every day. It’s one of those things where some days I’ll be great, “Oh yeah, my gut was right. This is not okay.” And some days it comes back full force. And I will have the negative self talk in my head. Sharing Examples of Emotional Abuse is Healing I shared my story in your community, so it was in front of a supportive audience. I was able to talk about my experience in your community who say, Hey, yeah, me too, because there’s so much power in knowing that you’re not going through something alone. And knowing that you can heal and grow alongside people. I was fortunate enough to find a community which I clicked with. There were three things that I appreciated. One of them was the power to share my story, get my voice back, and share my truth and not feel suppressed. And the second one was connecting with all these other survivors. I think community was huge. My experience, which was validated, and helped me know that I wasn’t alone. Because it’s so easy to think, wow, this doesn’t happen to anyone else. So knowing there were other women, and for me, they were all older than me. And I was the youngest one going through it at the time. It was great. And then the third thing I got out of it was education. I’m originally from a very small town. And had my story happened back in my small hometown, I would have had that same opportunity. And so It was great to share. No matter where I was, as long as I had internet access. I think those three pieces are huge stepping blocks for any survivor. Anne: Now, I can tell from the way you’re talking that you like the word survivor, which is awesome. I prefer the word victim. What is Considered Emotional Abuse? And I’ll tell you why. not saying this to convince you or anyone else. But the reason why I like the word victim is because survivor to me feels like you survived the Titanic or something, right? Like, you got off the Titanic, and the Titanic sank, and you made it to shore, and you survived. The harm is over, but with emotional abuse and domestic violence it may continue because you share children. And because I share children with the man who is emotionally and psychologically abusive to me, I’m actually, literally constantly a victim. Literally, I’m still technically victimized. I’m still lied about, I’m still harmed through things he says. When I say victims, what I want to say is that women can protect themselves, even though the harm could still occur because they share children or for whatever circumstance. And so the reason I don’t like to call myself a survivor is because I’m like, I haven’t survived anything. I’m still struggling through this as safe as possible with the boundaries I have. What are your thoughts about that, as you’ve talked with other survivors? Evie: Yeah, I think labels are important for people. You know, many people want to go by thriver too. I think it is a popular word that’s surfacing in the survivor community. But yeah, labels are personal for people, so I think whatever you want to identify as, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. It’s your story, and however you want to be identified, that is okay. Anne: Yeah, I agree. I feel like you can thrive, you can survive. And I’m not sure if I will say I’m technically a victim forever. And actually I’m pretty happy and grateful to have the boundaries that I have. When You’re Looking For Counselors for Emotional Abuse​ Anne: The Living Free strategies can protect you. I still call myself a victim because he’s still abusive. Luckily, with the strategies, I can completely protect myself and my kids now. As you know, if you listen to this podcast, sharing stories is what this podcast is about. So if you’re interested in sharing your story, one option is to share it here on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. If you’re interested in sharing your story, please contact [email protected]. As women think about sharing, what are some safety tips you would recommend? Is emotional abuse considered domestic violence: Safety Tips for Sharing Your Story Evie: I think it’s important to listen to your intuition and figure out what is a safe audience for you. Maybe you tell a best friend, and if that goes well. Then you tell a family member, and if that goes well, maybe you tell your circle of friends. I think it’s really important to note that we don’t always get the response we’re hoping for especially with emotional abuse. I told some family members, and I thought I would get support and love, and that didn’t happen. And it’s okay to go at your own pace. If you tell someone and you don’t get a reaction that you should, that’s not on you. That’s on them. And if you want to take a break from sharing your story, then take a break. But if you want to keep sharing your story, keep looking for safe outlets to do so. Tell other survivors. I think that’s important. You know, those can be great ways to share your story. Because you’re sharing it with someone and people who do understand, because they’ve been through something similar. They’ll know how to support you and love you. And so I think those baby steps are important. And if you want to get your story out there to a bigger audience. Yeah, sharing on your podcast is one way to do that. You get to share your truth anonymously. You’re also protected. You do a great job. Because you don’t have to connect your name with your story. You can share your story anonymously and still feel like you’re getting your voice out there. Using Pseudonyms for Protection It’s really just listening to your gut and figuring out, what do I need from sharing my story? And I know for me personally it was, I need to get my voice back. Anne: Every woman on this podcast uses a pseudonym for her own protection. Before I started this podcast, I was actually public speaking about what was happening with my abuser, thinking he was in recovery from addiction. We used our real names and spoke publicly at addiction recovery conferences. When I discovered all those lies that I accidentally promoted someone as a great guy, when he was a wolf in sheep’s clothing. I felt devastated. That was really, really hard for me to deal with. Having had the experience of using my real name and then doing this, I definitely chose to use a pseudonym so that I don’t have to go through that again, because that was awful. So that is one thing that I recommend for victims is to use a pseudonym. It’s helpful to keep you safe. Evie: Yes, absolutely. Anne: I don’t think many non-survivors listen to this podcast. If they do, thank you. I’m honored by you listening. Mostly the people that listen here are current victims of emotional abuse in marriage. The Best Emotional Abuse Support Groups​ Anne: Why do you think it’s important to hear these examples of emotional abuse? Evie: It’s so important. I’m just trying to make sure that if there is one person out there hearing my story, who needs to hear what I’m saying. That’s who my audience is. Because whether they’re not a survivor, or they are, and they just don’t want to come to terms with that yet. I think it’s so important to ensure that we’re just spreading our truth. Anne: Yeah, that is a risky endeavor, to start sharing. The cool thing about when you start sharing is that you’ll know pretty quickly if it’s a safe situation or not. You can dip your toe in the water a little bit and see, is it safe to share with this person, with this group, or with these people? And you’ll know pretty quickly if it’s safe or not. And if it’s not safe, you can just back away. healing from emotional abuse​ Anne: The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop will teach you how to know if someone is safe or not. So, if you’re struggling with that right now, the BTR Living Free Workshop will help. Okay. Now back to years ago, Anne. And then the more you share and assess your emotional safety, the more you can identify a safe group. I think probably in your case, but I’m not sure. Don’t let me put words in your mouth if this is not the case. That now you feel like your support system, not just the other survivors you’re around, but also your friends and the people you interact with, feel safe for you. Is that the case? Evie: Oh, absolutely. Anne: Yeah, and you’ve developed that over time. So that’s awesome. And that’s what can come from reaching out and starting to share. Has anyone seemed safe at first, and then proved not safe? Evie: Yeah, I think that was particularly true with my family, you know, their family. And so obviously they get a little bit deeper level of initial trust and love from you. It’s just so important to have the right emotional abuse recovery That almost hurt the most for me. Because certain family members helped me when I needed to move out. And then later on kind of used my story against me and made me the black sheep of the family. But, as hard as that was, I’m in a good place now where I’m definitely setting healthier boundaries and able to understand what is acceptable respect and love from people. And it’s never easy to cut toxic family members out of your life. emotional abuse how to heal​ Anne: Yep, the longer you go with either no abuse happening in your life anymore. Or in my case, the longer I set pretty strict boundaries to keep me safe from the harm, the stronger we get. In healing from emotional abuse and domestic violence the most important factor is distance from the abuse. And I highly recommend that women join a network of support, like Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group, for example. That runs multiple times a day in every woman’s time zone, which is awesome. I talked to someone the other day. He said, oh, so BTR is a women’s empowerment organization. And I said, yeah, you could call it that, definitely. We want every woman to know she is important, cared about, loved, and doesn’t deserve harm. Anne: Thank you so much for sharing your story on our podcast today. Evie: Thank you so much for having me.
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  Emotional Battering: The Invisible Abuse No One Can See 09.06.2026 26dk

  When emotional battering is covert, each moment looks harmless on its own. A comment, joke, or a nice” surprise might seem harmless. But when you step back and look at the pattern, a very different story emerges, one where boundaries are crossed, and her reactions are used as evidence against her. SEVEN SIGNS OF EMOTIONAL BATTERING Here are seven signs of emotional battering that often go unnoticed, especially when the husband looks like a great guy to everyone else. Her reactions don’t match his gestures. He is doing something that seems nice, but she seems genuinely distressed. It usually means she senses something that other people can’t. If she seems on edge around his kindness. She flinches at affection or looks uneasy when he is charming, it’s usually because she knows that kindness is hiding something that isn’t so kind. If she watches him carefully, she’s probably gauging risk. Hyperawareness is an emotional survival skill. So if she’s being emotionally battered, it’s totally normal that she’s gonna be on high alert for emotional manipulation. Feeling relief when you are away from him is a powerful indicator that something’s really wrong in your marriage. She apologizes for things that don’t require an apology. If she’s apologizing for just stating her opinion, or talking about how she feels, it’s highly likely that she’s experiencing emotional battering. She adjusts herself to constantly keep the peace. His lies that she’s doing something wrong are part of the emotional battering. Her friends notice that she’s not quite herself around him. A woman who’s trying to make herself smaller is not loved in marriage. If she seems quieter or less alive in his presence, that’s a sign that her husband is emotionally battering her. To learn if you are a victim of emotional battering, take this free emotional abuse quiz. WHAT IS EMOTIONAL BATTERING? Emotional battering is a consistent pattern of words, actions, or behaviors intended to manipulate, or control a person. Unlike physical abuse, emotional battering is more subtle and insidious, making it difficult to identify and even harder to explain to others. Worse, an abuser may manipulate others, so you experience emotional battering from people in your church congregation or even neighbors. If you’re experiencing emotional battering from by-standers regarding your husband’s behavior, you need support. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. COMMON EMOTIONAL BATTERING TACTICS Being married and experiencing emotional battering by your husband means navigating daily complexities that are draining and painful. Some common tactics include: Gaslighting: Making you question your memory, reality, or perceptions. For example, he may say, “I never said that,” even when you vividly remember he did. Constant Criticism: Regularly pointing out flaws, whether it’s your cooking, appearance, or parenting, to damage your confidence. Blame Shifting: Over time, you may find yourself thinking, my husband says I’m the problem, because he consistently redirects accountability onto you instead of addressing his own actions. Stonewalling or Silent Treatment: Refusing to engage in meaningful conversations, leaving you feeling invalidated and powerless. Public Embarrassment: Mocking or undermining you in front of friends or family to isolate you and damage your self-esteem. Emotional Withholding: Withholding affection, love, or support to punish or control you. TRANSCRIPT: EMOTIONAL BATTERING – THE INVISIBLE ABUSE NO ONE CAN SEE Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’re gonna call her Kiki. Welcome, Kiki. Kiki: Thank you very much. I’m excited to be here. First of all, I wanna thank BTR, because when I was in the middle of a complete breakdown, not understanding what was happening to me, it was only through finding your organization and the help of your team that made me realize that I wasn’t safe. The abuse was so covert that most people couldn’t have recognized it, myself included. I had therapists that didn’t recognize it as emotional battering. And that started a journey into figuring out exactly what had happened to me. And what had happened to my friend. I came home from work one night, and there were police vehicles all over the place. We were told she had shot herself in her husband’s car. And she would tell us a lot of times these stories, and we would look at her like. She’s crazy or she’s making things up because her husband was such a great guy. As I started going through my own stories and learning things after her death, but I was thinking about it the other day, like, you look at the Diddy trial or you look at women who come in and they’re battered. And they still have a hard time being believed. And then you take somebody who has been covertly abused or live in a society where, if your wife isn’t pretty enough or what have you, then she’s replaceable and it’s okay. PEOPLE HAVE A HARD TIME BELIEVING THERE IS EMOTIONAL BATTERING Kiki: People have a hard time believing there was abuse involved, but I left a 35 year marriage with severe CPTSD. I had a psychotic break, and I had to put myself back together. And during all of it, my ex-husband is the hero. My kids aren’t talking to me because I had some big breakdowns and did some things I’m not proud of. And that was like my friend’s story, she would have these breakdowns. You could be just as abused with a fist as you can with a piece of birthday cake. And I know that sounds silly. But it’s so covert, that people can’t see it as emotional battering. And BTR and the women and the professionals that came on here really gave me that push to step into it. Anne: Talk to me about the things your friend did that were totally normal under the circumstances. Like now that you know what you were looking at. So that we can let women who are listening know they’re not alone. If they’ve done something like this, it’s because they were trying to protect themselves. It’s completely and totally normal, and even healthy, when you’re in the situation to try to get to safety in any way that you can. Kiki: Oh, absolutely. There are several things that come up right away. The first one was we always had holiday parties at their house. They had a beautiful pool and her husband said something that seemed very innocuous and she started yelling. You promised me you wouldn’t say that you wouldn’t do this. ABUSE BY THROWING A SURPRISE PARTY Kiki: And she kind of goes off the rails a little bit, and we’re all sitting there looking at her like, what is going on right now? And so I immediately go into my people pleasing it’s okay to… and she’s yelling at me, “No, you don’t understand. You don’t understand what he does. I told him not to do this. He told me he wouldn’t do it. To you it seems innocent, but it’s not innocent.” And everybody’s looking at her. I get her away, and then I get her calmed down. And I go back and her husband is playing the victim. “Oh, poor me, you see, she’s bipolar. She always does this. This is what I have to live with.” And I feel so bad, because at the time, I didn’t realize I was going through it myself. You don’t realize it until after you’re out of it. Another thing, he was just very manipulative. For her 40th birthday, he threw her this amazing party, and everybody was in awe and completely jealous. And she was not happy about it. She told me afterwards, “I told him, I don’t like things like this. And it was just too much. It was way over the top.” And of course, I’m looking at her like I would give my left arm if my husband would throw me a party like this. Of course, he wouldn’t, because he knew I wanted one. Yeah, so there’s the difference. If you want it, you don’t get it. If you don’t want it, you get it. Then every year after that, he would throw her a surprise party and he would go out of his way to get people there, and she would walk in the room. MAKING HER LOOK UNGRATEFUL, UNKIND AND UNCARING Kiki: And we would all yell, surprise, and she would be devastated. then she’d try to put a smile on her face, and she was dying inside. Because how do you walk into the public where your husband has done this beautiful thing for you, but it’s exactly what you’ve asked him not to do? By year seven, she just kind of walked in, and then just went off in the corner and drank too much. She didn’t want a dog, but her son wanted a dog. So on her birthday, he bought her a designer dog and invited several friends to see her get the dog. Now she loved the dog with all her heart, but it was that manipulation tactic to say. Look at what a great husband I am. Here’s this $1,500 dog and you don’t get to complain about it. Anne: Correct me if I’m wrong. But he had effectively made her look ungrateful, unkind, uncaring. Which is exactly what he wanted. Kiki: Exactly. He was a very charming, gracious host, and the door was always open. I lived next door to them. And she could be reactive at times. And I would hear him talking to his son on the side of the house, and he would be saying. Just be quiet. I’ll help you out. You know how your mother is, you know how your mother gets, so he’s completely not supporting her. The biggest thing: the woman who he had a long-term affair with, they ended up getting married and they had a destination wedding. Anne: Did you know about the affair before she died ? Kiki: I did know about it and she knew about it. She was always concerned about it because her husband had told her it was over. ALWAYS PITTING EVERYBODY AGAINST ONE ANOTHER Kiki: But she would get these, Facebook or emails from an email she had never heard of before or a fake name, nobody she knew. That would say, your husband doesn’t love you. At one point, her husband even admitted it was from this woman, and of course, “I love you. I love only you. This woman’s crazy.” So he always pitted everybody against one another, that they’re crazy. Well, he ends up marrying this woman in a destination wedding. On the 10th anniversary of her death, his new wife, who he had an affair with the whole time. Puts up a post on Facebook that says, “I’ve been keeping a secret. We actually got secretly married on the day before the anniversary of her death” And nobody says a word. There’s whispers behind the scenes, but there’s the, Jesus wants us to forgive and forget. And I’m like, no. And that’s when I said, “Uhuh, you know what? I’m not gonna keep quiet.” And you know what? I believe it was soul murder, because that’s how abusers manipulate their victims, especially the covert type. It’s so insidious. It just eats away at your soul, and you completely lose yourself. Anne: That is so strange. Who in their right mind, if they’re a decent person, wants to publicly say that? Having your new wife tell the whole world that they secretly got married the day before the anniversary of when mom committed suicide. Like, that’s not hurting anyone? What? That’s like next level. How did people react to that post? Were they like, it feels like it would be like radio silence, okay, cray cray town. Or were they like, “Oh, congratulations, I’m so glad you did that secretly because she was so crazy.” What was the reaction? REACTIONS TO AN ABUSIVE POST Kiki: Mostly my friends and people who didn’t know her spoke out. It was almost crickets from friends and family, publicly. Several of them reached out behind the scenes or had somebody reach out on their behalf. People seemed afraid to say anything. That’s what they do is gather their minions. I’ve heard he’s sending out paragraphs of these long texts, playing the victim and putting his son in the role of, here’s Kiki hurting my son. He’s retired from the police force, but is now serving as a bailiff. And that’s, one of the things he’s very concerned about is what if I lose my job or what if I lose face, because nothing triggers a covert abuser than being cornered. Anne: It’s really, I would say, shocking that that’s what abusive messages sound like. Because they sound so nice and they sound like he’s the victim, really. It’s awful to think that society in general is so blind and in the dark about what these messages look and sound like. They all look the same. Once you know what you’re looking at, you know how to see it. And my workshop covers that. I took the real life messages from five different, emotionally abusive men and use those and then how to respond to them. And most of them are just not overt. They really sound like nice guys, but when you know what you’re looking for, you’re able to see these are clearly abusive. Kiki: Yeah, it’s really hard , these are people that we had great times with. You don’t understand that they’re being horrible and they’ve got this whole other life. INVESTIGATORS TALK TO ME Kiki: One thing I will say is, the investigator who called me, actually two investigators called me and the one was really good. We talked about coercive abuse. He says, ” A lot of times people think coercive abuse is they lock you in the house or they take away your money. But it’s not always that way.” He says, “I understand what you’re saying.” He said, “Unfortunately, we’re not at the point in our world where it’s really illegal to be a jerk.” But I did send all his text messages to this investigator and said, “Hey, just in case anything happens, I want you to see this.” I don’t think she was terrified of him at all, nor was I of my husband. As a matter of fact, about a month before she passed away, she was with another friend and wanted to hire a private investigator. The friend was going to help her, and then a day or two later she wrote and she said, no, don’t do it. Because even if I find out he’s cheating again, I love my husband and I am not going to leave him. I think she was just so convinced that she was lucky to have this guy . She didn’t understand the covert abuse. I have become this huge investigator on patterns, looking at patterns and trying to figure it all out. Because it is so sneaky and so covert, and it goes over so long. I thought I had the perfect marriage. I didn’t understand until I was out of it. How much of myself I had lost and how some of these things that I had completely normalized, my ex-husband had me convinced that all men think this way and all men do these things. YOU DON’T KNOW ALL OF THE ABUSE YOU’RE EXPERIENCING Kiki: I got married when I was 21 years old. I had never even heard of pornography until I got married. Then we were in the military, and went to the Philippines, where sex was everywhere, so was infidelity. So anytime a husband had an affair, it was the wife’s fault. Because she wasn’t doing what she was supposed to be doing. And even within our group, there were affairs within different couples. The thing was, you don’t take sides. They’re always invited, and whoever shows up, shows up. Of course, it was always the two people having the affair that showed up. And the spouse that was actually wronged didn’t. It always bothered me. I always felt horrible, but I thought, that’s the way the world is. And it’s really sad when you don’t know what you don’t know until it’s too late. Anne: Isn’t it too late the whole time? You don’t know all of the emotional and psychological abuse you’re experiencing the entire time. Kiki: No, you don’t. Until you’re out of it, you’ve lost your mind. You’re blaming yourself for everything. People are dropping out of your life. My ex-husband was married within 30 days to a woman. He’s 70 now, I think she might be 29 or 30. He is the great guy and look, I finally got away from that crazy person. And I’m sitting here in shock as to how I’m the bad person. But that’s because the people we were around, society as a whole, a lot of the times think, time to get a new one. My ex used to do things very covertly. He knew I was always very concerned about my weight. COVERTLY UNDERMINING SELF-ESTEEM Kiki: Of course, he made me concerned about my weight. He would come home and say, I brought us cake for dessert, and tonight when we’re watching TV, we could eat cake for dessert. And I’d be like, okay. It was always the kind of cake, almost 99% of the time, he liked. Not the cake I liked. And we would split the piece of cake. Well, while I was eating my cake, we would be watching TV and there would be some beautiful actress on there, and he’d say something like, “Oh what did she allow to happen to herself? She just turned into such a fat pig.” Like he would say that. And here’s me sitting here. Anne: Wow. Kiki: So used to people talking that way, that I look and it’s this beautiful woman. I say, “Are you crazy? She’s gorgeous, she’s beautiful.” And he’d say, “Well, honey, don’t get jealous or upset. I mean, she’s not 55 years old and she hasn’t had two kids.” So suddenly that cake is just sitting there in your throat, like this lump of cement. That’s how badly I had been groomed. He would say these horrible things and say, all men think that way. That’s how a lot of people thought in the circle we were with. He told me one time. You know how they always tell on themselves? He says, “I’m not really mad at you. I kind of respect you for finally standing up for yourself.” And I just went, oh my, he knew. It’s a game. Anne: It’s a game of exploitation. How much can I exploit her, how much can I get from her? How can I use her without having to give very much? They know they have to give a little bit. CALCULATING TO EXPLOIT Anne: But like, what is the least amount I can give for the most amount I can get? And they’re not caring about us. They are using us. Their motions, as if they care, are calculated to exploit us. They’re like, what’s the biggest bang I can get for this? It’s a completely different vibe that we feel from people when they actually care about us, when they’re not transactional in the way that they interact with us. All of this I talk about in detail in my Workshop , like exactly why this happens and what to look for, to know if they are transactional in their relationships. That means every time he says, I care about you, he’s calculated that in order to get something out of you, he’s not actually caring about you. That’s what makes couple therapy so impossible or going to clergy so impossible, or friends. Because he’ll never actually say the truth of how he feels and what his intentions are. Kiki: Oh yeah. I grew up where love was transactional. I know it’s not my fault, but if I want a healthy relationship, then I have to understand that. Anne: The plane wreck’s not your fault. It’s not your fault that the plane didn’t have supplies on it. It’s not your fault that the plane didn’t have a satellite phone. You are gonna need to stand up and start walking toward the nearest city, and I think that’s what you’re talking about. It is where you’re like, okay, the plane wreck is not my fault. None of this is my fault. However, if I don’t stand up and start moving forward, I’m not gonna survive this. Kiki: Exactly. HOW THEY ACT IS NOT WHAT THEY SAY Anne: That survival starts with recognizing what these liars do and what they say. If we had to boil it down—though it’s almost impossible—it’s this: if you only observed what they did with your eyes and not your ears, what would you see? Most of the time, you would see that how they act doesn’t match what they say. And that’s when women start asking an important question: is lying emotionally abusive? Because when someone’s words and actions never line up, that pattern alone begins to erode your sense of reality. Kiki: Oh, I often say that if my ex-husband’s lips were moving, there was a lie coming out. Even though he presented as the most wonderful, generous person you ever met in your life. He controlled with size. He controlled with victimhood, the poor me. As a matter of fact, most people would tell you in my family that I wore the pants of the family. But the reality was, it was just an illusion. I was controlled from the time I woke up through the time I went to bed. I call it death through thousand paper cuts just all day long. “Did ‘you have to put the ketchup in here like this? Why did you put the dish in here like this? Most women would be thrilled that they have a husband that wants to watch TV with them. Why can’t you come sit down and watch TV?” I’d be like, oh yeah, you’re right. And I’d go running and never understand what was really going on. I think that happens in a lot of marriages, and it still didn’t all add up for me. I had to learn patterns, because to me, coercive meant it was mean, but it’s not always. SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT ON EMOTIONAL BATTERING Anne: You mentioned they can hurt you just as much with a piece of cake as they can with a fist. The most abusive thing someone can do is tell you they love you when it’s not true. They’re using you. They love what they can get from you, but actually caring about you, not so much. Thank you so much. Kiki, you’re incredible for wanting to set the record straight about who your friend was and why she was acting the way that she was. She was doing what any healthy woman would do, not understanding her situation, and trying to create some emotional safety for herself. In the best way that she knew how and she didn’t know what was happening and she didn’t know what to do about it. And that’s not her fault. That’s society’s fault. That’s every therapist that they went to’s fault. If they went to therapy or clergy or whoever, who did not educate her about what was actually happening. Because women in this situation, they do the right thing. They try to get help. They try to get information, they try to listen to their husband and communicate with him more. Whatever it is they’re trying to do, they have good intentions. It’s really unfortunate that bystanders, professionals, people outside, they attribute good intentions to someone. Meaning an abusive man who doesn’t have them. He actually has bad intentions. So, that’s awesome that you’re honoring your friend in this way. I bet she’s looking on you and thanking you for that. WANTING PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND Kiki: I hope so. Yeah, I wanted people to understand who she really was and why she was the way she was sometimes, and even for her son to maybe understand who his mother really was and what was happening. Because I think that’s the biggest travesty. I’m being blamed for hurting the son, but the son is still caught in these dynamics within a system that protects the perpetrator. The truth may hurt, but lies will kill you. Anne: Yeah, oh, that is so true. Kiki: Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity. You’re amazing. BTR is amazing and thank you. Anne: Thank you.
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  6 Things a Cheating Husband Says: What You Need To Know 02.06.2026 34dk

  If you’ve been betrayed by your husband, you’ve probably replayed every conversation in your head. What he said. What it meant. Here are six things a cheating husband says that may seem innocent, or even remorseful, but are actually manipulative and abusive. You deserve safety. Clarity. Truth. Take my free emotional abuse quiz to see if you’re experiencing this. 1. Cheating Husband Says, “It’s because you were pregnant.” At first, this sounds like a confession wrapped in vulnerability. But let’s be clear: blaming betrayal on your pregnancy is a covert form of abuse. He’s saying, “You made me do this.” He’s shifting responsibility for his betrayal onto your body, and your vulnerability. This isn’t guilt…it’s manipulation. 2. “I’ve had this addiction since I was a kid.” If your cheating husband says this, it might trigger your compassion, and that’s the point. Yes, trauma is real. But past trauma is not a free pass to traumatize others. When a man uses his childhood as a shield against accountability, he’s not trying to heal. He’s trying to keep you from leaving. 3. “Let’s” get help. This one is tricky. At first, it seems like progress. Counseling. Support groups. Healing. But what if he’s lying in those sessions? What if he’s telling the therapist half-truths, or worse, repeating the kind of things a cheating husband says to shift blame onto you? Many women spend years in therapy trying to “fix” the marriage, when the real issue is that he’s abusive, not confused. 4. “You’re just not supportive enough.” If your cheating husband says you’re the problem, he’s counting on you to believe him. Women in these situations often over-function, working double-time to prove they’re loving, patient, faithful. Meanwhile, he’s lying, gaslighting, and keeping secrets. This isn’t a marriage. It’s a mind game. 5. “I’m sober now.” He might say he’s changed. That he’s not using anymore. But his actions don’t match. He’s distant. Emotionally cold. You feel invisible in your own home. But in public? He’s pouring your coffee. Smiling like the perfect husband. This tactic, acting loving in front of others while rejecting you in private, is covert emotional abuse. 6. “You’re emotionally Abusive.” This one is the hardest. When you finally draw a boundary or leave, the cheating husband says you’re the toxic one. He tells your church, your family, your friends:“She’s crazy.”“She ruined the marriage.”“I tried everything.” This tactic is called DARVO: Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender. And it’s one of the most psychologically damaging parts of betrayal. Why It Hurts So Much When your cheating husband says things like this, the trauma goes deeper than infidelity. It’s not just about sex or secrets. It’s about emotional coercion and psychological manipulation. And if you feel confused, isolated, or like you’re slowly losing your grip on reality, you’re not crazy. You’re experiencing betrayal trauma. This interview dives deeper into one woman’s story. Pay attention and you’ll hear how her husband used every one of these to make her thing his cheating was her fault. Transcript: 6 Things Cheating Husband Says Anne: Kathleen a member of our community is on today’s podcast. She’s going to share her story. Welcome, Kathleen. Kathleen: Hi Anne. Thanks for having me on today. Anne: We’re grateful that you’re brave enough to share your story to help other women. We’re talking about how your cheating husband says that it’s your fault. So why don’t you start with your backstory? What was your situation? Kathleen: I guess from day one of my marriage, I felt like something wasn’t right and I could never put my finger on. We were, I thought, happily married, had a child. Then shortly after my second child was born, I just felt that something wasn’t right. Discovering His Infidelity Kathleen: I found out, unfortunately, that my husband was into exploitative material, and that was just devastating. I felt like everything was over. Although I didn’t want to end the marriage, I felt like my perfect world with my newer marriage, my two sweet children, our sweet little family was just ruined. It just was not what I thought it was. We immediately tried to get help. Unfortunately, he was lying to me. He blamed it on my pregnancy with my first and second child—something I later realized is exactly the kind of thing a cheating husband says to avoid taking responsibility. For years this went on with him dabbling in help. I just kept with it, trying to stay strong, trying to stay in the marriage. I never even thought this type of infidelity was abusive. We kept going and we had our good times and then our bad times. When things were bad, they were very bad. Things were good sometimes, but it was really not much to hold on to. So, we went on like this for probably fourteen to fifteen years until we got help together. Through working with them over about a two year period, I started to see, that my husband just did not want to do the work to get better. Which made us pretty much come to a halt. We separated about two summers ago for three months. He was able to come back and about two months after that, he was out for good. Since then, he blamed everything on me. Realizing The Infidelity Was Emotional And Psychological Abuse Anne: Let’s talk about those years of thinking he has an addiction and going down that route for a while. Did you ever consider you were dealing with an emotional and psychological abuser? Kathleen: I had no idea. Anne: And did anyone ever mention it to you? Like he’s been unfaithful, he’s abusive? Kathleen: No, never. If anything, it was the opposite. It was, let’s help him. Let’s see what we could do to help him. Anne: Or he’s such a good guy. We can’t understand why he’s doing this thing. Let’s get him some help. Kathleen: Absolutely. Yeah. Or his past, you know, he had a rough upbringing, so this is why he’s doing it. Anne: Right. Yeah. I often say, I know several people who have had a really super hard upbringing and they’re not abusers. So it’s not really a reason to be abusive Challenges With Clergy Who Don’t Recognize Abuse Anne: . He went for years to a well known Catholic counselor and men’s purity groups. Do you feel like they really understand that infidelity is abuse? Kathleen: Absolutely not. We started with this one counselor, the well known Catholic counselor in infidelity expertise, and I felt like I was blamed in this situation, the same way a cheating husband says things that shift responsibility, and I just bailed quickly. Something in my gut told me, get away. Then, the last year or so, I heard that he might have changed the way he helped women and couples. I decided, let me give it another try. It was at least 15 years later. Unfortunately, it was just the same thing. It was one session and done. No, there’s no change. It’s very unfortunate because these seem to be the people we turn to when you have a problem. It just causes more trauma for the women. Anne: Right, what are some of the things that the priests said to you or did that was so traumatizing that blamed you? Kathleen: In my parish? Yeah, so my parish priest actually supported me. Anne: When you mean support, when you say supported, do you mean financially? Kathleen: Not financially, there’s really no financial support. It was just an emotional support. He listened, he understood. He suggested I might have to separate with my husband, which I took that very seriously. Maybe four months later, we separated. After my husband went and talked to the pastor and the parish priest, both decided to take sides with him, which I don’t even know why a side had to be taken. Cheating Husband Says OTher’s Should Stay Neutral Anne: I can tell you why. Kathleen: Go ahead. Anne: A side does need to be taken. A neutral party will always benefit the perpetrator. The problem is, most of the time, they side with the perpetrator. instead of the victim. Because in an abuse situation, there’s a perpetrator and a victim. If you stay neutral and say, well, she’s got her side of the story and he has his side of the story and the truth is somewhere in the middle, that means that you believe what he is saying a little bit. These are some of the confusing factors when deciding if you should stay married after infidelity. Maybe she’s lying a little bit rather than recognizing, no, this is a perpetrator. He’s going to do everything he can to avoid accountability and blame his victim. And a victim who’s telling the truth, who’s trying to get to safety. So, it’s really important for people to take sides, but they need to take sides with the right party. They need to protect the victim. Any type of neutrality or even thinking, well, he couldn’t be that bad, is harmful to the victim. Since infidelity is abusive to partners, taking the right side is important. When Cheating Husband COnvinces Others It’s Your Fault Kathleen: Right. And that’s a lot of what I’ve been experiencing. He’s been getting into the ear of anybody who knew us and telling them how horrible I have been, the same kind of story-spinning a cheating husband says to protect himself. Getting back to the priest, the priest was the one who was spreading that I was a liar and I have manipulated the entire situation. Anybody in this situation that I was in would have taken the advice he gave. Which, I don’t even know what help he was talking about. Anne: This is one of the ways abusers manipulate their victims. People don’t understand that an abuser claiming that his victim is the abuser is abuse. Kathleen: Absolutely. So, this abuse has not only extended to him lying to everybody about you and blaming you, but also roping third party people. Like a priest in your parish or other people, to also abuse you through blaming you. When CheatinG Husband Says It’s Because of You Kathleen: That’s exactly what’s happening now. I can honestly say that this secondary abuse is way worse than what I experienced directly from my husband. Anne: Why would you say that is? I agree with you. I’ve experienced it as well. And I agree. But for our listeners, in your opinion, why do you think that is? Kathleen: Well, I think, first of all, it’s my own healthy pride. I want to be an upstanding Christian and a good person. Now people see me as a liar and a manipulator, which I’m not. The other part of it is that, I’ve lost my community. I had to leave my church and go to a different church. It’s very hard because I feel like a lot of people look down their nose at me and I just try to hold my head high and have faith in God to get me through. Recognizing The Full Extent of His Infidelity Anne: When did you realize that all these years of, “Something’s not quite right.” When did you realize that was just flat out emotional and psychological abuse and coercion? Kathleen: I always knew that it wasn’t right. I knew it wasn’t healthy, but I didn’t realize it was abuse until after our second separation. When surfing the internet one night looking at abuse and decided to call our local abuse shelter. I called and said, I don’t know if I’m being abused. From the information that I gave them about what happened to me, they assured me that I was absolutely being abused. They also helped me to see that other behaviors that had happened in our marriage were abuse that I didn’t even realize were wrong, not just the things my cheating husband says, but the patterns behind them. I mean, I’ve been emotionally, psychologically, financially, and even physically abused. I didn’t realize I was also being physically abused. Anne: Did that shock you because you’d never called an abuse specialist before, right? You’d always called maybe a marriage counselor or, some type of clergy or some kind of addiction specialist. Were you shocked that immediately right out of the gate, these people never talked to you before? We’re like, yeah, this is super abusive and that you’d never heard it from anyone else. Kathleen: I was, and I felt it was such a disadvantage. Going through this, it was always focusing on his infidelity. I was always searching for addiction services for spouses, the help for that, and I couldn’t find anything to help with what a cheating husband says. But all the behaviors surrounding it make it abuse. Finding Support and Betrayal Trauma Recovery Kathleen: It was mind boggling and maddening to know that there was nothing out there. I never wanted to go to marriage counseling for some reason. I knew in my gut, it was not a marriage issue. It was infidelity and it was his problem . So I was grateful for that, but it was hard to find help. Anne: When did you find Betrayal Trauma Recovery? Kathleen: I think I found it probably about a year and a half ago, maybe two years ago. Just found BTR online and saw there was The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast and religiously started to listen because it was the only place that got it. Anne: What did you think after years of the, help him, be gentle with him because he has these childhood problems. Let’s try not to trigger him, don’t shame him, are you a good wife? Are you giving him it when he needs it? What did you think after coming to BTR and listening? What did that feel like for you? Kathleen: I just felt like there was a place that understood what it really was and I knew that it was the right place to get the information that I needed to educate myself. Lying, Manipulation, Gaslighting ARE Infidelity Anne: It’s like you know it in your gut, but you don’t have words for it. You don’t have a place to process it appropriately. If you try to process it with the addiction people and they tell you, no, it’s you and you need to be patient then it halts your processing, it stops you. It’s like floating around, but you can’t ever grab it. It’s like foggy and you can’t quite get out of that fog. Kathleen: Right. I always knew, I always had the gut feeling and I would thankfully go with my gut feeling, but I could never put my finger on where things were going wrong. I mean, I never caught him using it again, I always was asking myself the question is he using or is he not? He claims sobriety. Those claims, the things a cheating husband says, kept me doubting myself.But based on what I know now and looking back, I know he was still using. I know he was because I know the way he behaved, it’s obvious because infidelity is abuse. I know the way that he kept me at a distance. He wouldn’t engage with me at all emotionally, which devastated me. It was like I was a stranger in our house, but outside he acted like husband of the year. He would get coffee for me in front of other people. He would act like he was just so in love when he was with me in public, which is part of the reason why people just don’t understand the situation and they believe him that I’m the liar and the manipulator. Secrecy Of Infidelity Makes It Traumatic Anne: When you changed your outward talk from did the third party people get more angry with you? Are they like, whoa, wait a minute. You’ve said he’s a addict. Now you’re claiming he’s an abuser? Did they get more upset? Kathleen: Well, not really because nobody knew he was a user. That was secret. It was my own private secret that I lived in. My family didn’t know. Our friends didn’t know. Nobody knew. I didn’t tell people. I was very much ashamed that was in our marriage. Anne: Okay, did you tell people when you recognized it was abuse, did you start saying, he’s abusive? Kathleen: Once we were separated for the second time and it was pretty much out there that we were no longer together. Yes. I told people that he had abused explicit online media and that he was abusive. I was trying to get myself to safety. My family is so supportive, tremendously supportive, even more than I even thought that they could be. I’ve had friends that I wasn’t that close with, but they understood because of their own experiences through their life. They are like a rock to me, but then a lot of people that I thought I could count on, just disappeared or sided with him. People Who Are Uneducated About Infidelity Don’t Know It Causes Trauma Anne: Yeah. I’ve seen that happen too. It’s really interesting. Even a couple of friends that we had that her husband is also a user have decided to side with my ex. They’re still married. I wonder if they think, well, if we talk to Anne, she’s so intent on saying infidelity is abuse, maybe our marriage would be in jeopardy, so we don’t want to go down that route. I’m not sure why they’ve decided to do that, but he’s still exhibiting abusive behaviors from my perspective, but of course they can’t see that. Why would you want to be friends with an abuser? That makes no sense to me, Kathleen: Right. Anne: Also I think we can clearly see that they’re lying and manipulating people, but they can’t see it. Kathleen: No, and there is a part of me that has a little sympathy for the third party people. I believed my husband’s lies for years. I mean, my whole relationship was based on the lies a cheating husband says to protect himself. Anne: Yep, and if we couldn’t see it, they don’t even live with him. Of course it would be hard for them to see it too. Kathleen: Right, he’s good at lying. Anne: Good at manipulation, good at grooming, really. Kathleen: Absolutely. Anne: A lot of women are hoping that their relationship will work out and hoping that once he’s confronted about his abusive behaviors he will get into some type of program and get help. Importance of Truth & Full Disclosure In What A Cheating Husband Says Anne: If they go down the addiction recovery route, many programs do what is known as a full disclosure. Where the abuser is supposed to outline all of his indiscretions, but doesn’t necessarily include all abuse episodes. Since you went down that route for a little while, did you ever have a quote unquote full disclosure with the help of an addiction specialist? Then you have to figure out if your husband’s apology is genuine. Kathleen: No, unfortunately I did not. Anything that I found out about my husband was either me finding out by catching him or him over the years, basically, drip feeding me information and I would figure things out. Anne: You say unfortunately. Is that something that you think would have helped you or why did you say unfortunately? Kathleen: I say unfortunately because without any truth, there is no basis for your relationship and I never received truth. That’s part of the reason or a main reason why my marriage fell apart. If he was truthful with me, I feel like maybe we could have fixed things and worked on it better. Anne: A lot of people get a full disclosure, but it’s not a full disclosure. So there are times where a cheating husband says he’s told the whole truth, but it’s not the full truth. And that, fake full truth is very difficult for victims because they think, oh, finally we have the whole truth. Discovering The Truth Is Difficult Anne: But they don’t. The other thing I think is interesting is, fake histories that they might give as excuses. I am not about to say that your husband wasn’t actually abused, but some of them do say things like that as an excuse. For example, I know of one abuser who told his victim that he was abused by a neighbor, but she is now 100 percent convinced that he abused the neighbor. Kathleen: I believe there could be some truth to that. I took what my husband told me with a grain of salt, but he said he was abused, I took it seriously to protect my children. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s one thing that’s difficult to know when you’re dealing with an abusive and manipulative man who is willing to lie at all costs, is that truth that you think you know might not be the truth at all. A full disclosure might not be a full disclosure. I want to give women who think, I wish I could have gotten a full disclosure and he would have told me the truth. If someone does not want to tell you the full truth, they might pretend to give it to you. That might be as harmful as not knowing anything. When we’re dealing with someone who lies at this scale, What worries me is the fake truth that women think that they receive and then they feel safe because they feel like they’ve received it all when it’s just the tip of the iceberg. Women Feel Betrayal Trauma Because Cheating Husband Says It’s Her Fault Kathleen: That’s a good point and I think that with my husband, the way he is, nothing that ever came out of his mouth to me was truthful. Early on, I did pray to God to let me know what I needed to know. I guess I’ll just be grateful that I know what I know and that’s all I need to know. Anne: Isn’t that interesting. As women of faith who decided to divorce, can we talk about your decision to divorce or are you divorced? Kathleen: Not officially. I actually separated from my husband with the intent for him to go get help. Through that time, he chose to go live with his, suspected abuser, or at least who he claims abused him. He went to live with him for over a year. It was his brother. Anne: His brother. Okay. So he chooses to go live with the person who he has told you abused him? Kathleen: Yes, which was a huge red flag to me. Because he claimed this, but then went to live with him. Then he decided about a year ago that he wanted to file for divorce. Anne: That sounds really similar to my story, by the way. My ex claimed that he was abused by his parents and that his parents were really abusive, but hangs out with them all the time, without saying that their behaviors have changed. There is no claim, they’re totally different now. Navigating Community Judgment And Isolation WHEN A CHEATING HUSBAND SAYS YOU’RE THE PROBLEM Kathleen: Right now I’m really struggling with the community thing. It’s really tough to live in a community of people. It’s even where I work. The school that I teach at is where my children attend and it’s part of a small Catholic community. There I am working amongst people who think what my cheating husband says is true…that I’m the liar and manipulator and the marriage ruiner. So, it’s tough. Anne: That is really, really hard. I am very sorry. I pray often that the truth is known to people somehow. There are days, do you ever do this? Where you read the local newspaper, thinking that you’ll see him in the newspaper? Do you ever do that? Kathleen: I feel like someday I will hear that he has like either a DUI or was arrested or something. Anne: Yeah. Kathleen: He works at a local high school, so. Always worried about that as well. Anne: It’s so strange to think that someone who has not taken any accountability is still just walking around. Not only just walking around, but affecting your life at such a level. Especially when you are the victim of his abuse without people really acknowledging or being compassionate or empathetic about your situation. Instead, being more judgmental, it feels more isolating. Kathleen: Right, yeah, it does. Then, you get your wishy washy people who say, I don’t want to choose a side. That’s probably one of the worst things you can say to somebody who’s abused. Especially if her abuser has covert narcissist traits. Because it’s like, “I don’t take you seriously.” WHEN OTHERS SIDE With WHAT A CHEATING HUSBAND SAYS Anne: Yeah, I don’t believe you. I confront people about that. I would not recommend it, by the way. But I say, you need to pick a side. Because I’m a victim of abuse and he’s a perpetrator. Would you like to stand with a victim and stop enabling a perpetrator, or not? Kathleen: Right. Anne: They don’t like that one bit. People feel very uncomfortable about that. Then they think, Oh, she really is crazy. Kathleen: It’s amazing how their crazy look makes us look more crazy. Anne: Instead of thinking, Oh, they don’t like us, or they don’t like what we say about abuse, or they think we’re going too far when we call these guys abusers. I think it’s more strategic to have a surprised posture, in your head. You don’t want to like insult people, like, that’s surprising to me. I didn’t know that you were here from 1830. In a time machine and that you didn’t know abusers do this and that what you’re saying is an extension of his abuse. Well, weird. I mean it’s more strategic to have an attitude or an energy about us that is more surprise than traumatized. It’s impossible to not be traumatized when someone says something triggering, that’s obviously harmful, that’s not empathetic, or not caring at all. It’s impossible not to be hurt by that. I wonder if we all took this, I’m shocked. A therapist wrote and said, I don’t agree with BTR’s model. I don’t think it’s abusive. So I can’t associate with you. My first email to him back was like, I’m so sorry. That makes sense. I wish you the best. EMOTIONAL ABUSE AND WHAT A CHEATING HUSBAND SAYS Anne: Then I thought, wait a minute. I’m not going to write this. I’m writing, Oh, I’m surprised to hear that lying and manipulation are emotional and psychological abuse. That’s what I wrote. He wrote back and said, Oh, I do. I recognize it’s abuse. I just don’t agree with what BTR says. And I’m like, Hmm? He said, I don’t think infidelity is abusive, is what he said. This is a prominent therapist out there. Kathleen: Wow. Anne: And I was like, Okay, whatever. Kathleen: That’ll leave me to believe. Well, what’s going on in your world? Why are you, defending it? Anne: Yeah. Why would anyone think that viewing someone abusing isn’t participating in abuse in some way? Or at the very least sending your energy somewhere other than your wife. What do you want to call that? If you don’t want to call it abuse. Kathleen: I call that infidelity. Anne: Infidelity is also abusive, right? Why are you so afraid of the word abuse? Kathleen: I guess because it’s so strong and so many people think of it as hitting their wife, instead of what a cheating husband says. It’s so just extreme to call something abuse. I think that’s part of the problem. People need education on it. Anne: What you went through is extreme. To say that, it’s too extreme to call it abuse. You went through years of psychological and emotional abuse and coercion. You are still a victim of abuse in your community from a perpetrator who is talking to your community about you and lying about you. The Ongoing Struggle With Abuse Anne: If you don’t call that extreme, what is? In terms of the way it affects you on a daily basis, that is extreme. It’s abuse. There’s no other word for it. Kathleen: Right. He’s still able to be in contact with me, unfortunately, because of our children, which leads the door open for him to continue to abuse me. Anne: Exactly. You do your best to set boundaries, you do your best to heal, all those things that are healthy. It’s not impossible. You will live an amazing life, and things will get better for you over time. But they don’t understand that there’s no way to stop him from abusing you. Kathleen: Right. It’s a shame because, our judicial system and even co-parent counseling, they just don’t understand how what a cheating husband says can hurt you. And it’s difficult because the boundaries that you set up are torn down or changed because you have to follow. Anne: The parenting plan or something. Kathleen: Yeah. Parenting plan or some kind of legal plan. Anne: This is why I created my Clarity After Betrayal Workshop. Have you ever talked to the legal system or your attorney about being emotionally and psychologically abused and you need a parallel parenting plan? Kathleen: He is very well aware. We just started a second co-parent counseling and I do want to ask if we could do a parallel parenting plan. Anne: Yeah, it’s a difficult situation, and it’s ongoing, divorce doesn’t stop the abuse. It can protect us from a lot of things, but it can’t stop the things a cheating husband says. So that’s what’s really difficult. And so many victims now are praying and praying and praying for justice all over the world. Faith And Frustration In the Face Of Abuse Anne: It feels like we pray and pray and pray and that our prayers aren’t answered. Kathleen: It’s kind of like any relationship. There are times I feel like God is right by my side and that’s what gets me through the day. Then there are times that I’m asking, “Lord, where are you? I don’t feel you.” So, it’s hard, I always have faith in our Lord, I know He is there, but to feel Him just makes it so much more doable to get through the situation. Kathleen: It’s tough, I couldn’t do it without my faith, I couldn’t do it without God, and I am grateful for that, but it’s hard, and I too pray for truth, I’m like, Lord, I need truth to come out soon. I need it soon. So, hasn’t been answered yet, but I know that God is always working in mysterious ways. I’m just living in hope that it will come out at some point. Anne: Yeah, I had a discussion with God the other day. He was like, I answer so many of your prayers. You just don’t notice because you’re focused on these other ones, you know, kind of like that. And I was thinking, but I don’t care about those other ones. These are the ones I want you to answer. Answer them now. Why are you not answering them? I’m so mad at you. Hopes For Divine Intervention Anne: It is frustrating to feel like he helped me with this and he helped me with that, but why can’t he help me so I don’t have to have any more contact with my abuser, which is a really big thing. Kathleen: Right, That’s one of my prayers as well. I find it going to, like, sinful thoughts sometimes, which I try not to do. Anne: Like him getting hit by a bus? Kathleen: Totally, it is an accurate answer, it also, to me would be protection for my children because they are abused as well. Anne: Exactly, yeah, I wonder about all those Old Testament stories of the wicked being smitten. I don’t know, but I know that the best we can do, if we’re women of faith, is to be obedient. Obedient to the commandments and do the best we can under a very difficult situation. Kathleen: Right, and hopefully in God’s time, it will all come out. Anne: If you could go back in time and share with your younger self what would you tell her? Kathleen: I guess to go with your gut feeling. If you are doubting anything about what a cheating husband says, don’t second guess it. Look into it a bit more, be sure of who you marry and spend the rest of your life with. Educating Future Generations Anne: It’s interesting though, if you don’t know what you’re looking for, you could spend time with them and not see it. We all spent years with our abuser and we didn’t recognize we were being abused. That’s why it’s important to me that women know that you’ll experience if your cheating husband says it’s your fault. Kathleen: Right. And that is what happened. And I had some odd dreams that happened and I pretty much ignored them. Which I wish I didn’t do. Anne: Yeah, when you have no context for it, it’s difficult to see. Anne: That’s one of the goals of our daily online support group for betrayal trauma is to educate women all over the world about abuse, about what it looks like so that we can educate our children, so if they have a dream, they have context for what they’re experiencing. Kathleen: Right. Yeah, hopefully it’ll be easier for my children down the road. Anne: Kathleen, thank you so much for being brave and sharing your story. Kathleen: Anne, thank you for the opportunity to share my story. It’s, definitely helpful to know there are other women out there that understand, and I’m not alone in this.
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  The Truth About Signs of Emotional Manipulation in Marriage 26.05.2026 20dk

  For many women, signs of emotional manipulation don’t stop with their husband. It often spreads outward, into families, faith communities, friend groups, and even professional support systems. Emotional manipulation can be especially destabilizing when it comes from people a woman expects to be supportive. Friends, family members, clergy, therapists, or neighbors may unintentionally reinforce harmful patterns, leaving her feeling isolated, blamed, or unsure where to turn. Here are seven signs of emotional manipulation that often appear after a woman reaches out for help: 7 Signs of Emotional Manipulation When SEeking Marriage Help 1. Advice that centers on him instead of your emotional safetyComments like, “He needs your support” don’t take into account that he might be lying or manipulating you. 2. Spiritual or moral language used to silence you.Phrases like, just forgive or don’t keep score, pressure women to look on the bright side, when really they need to seek emotional safety. 3. Undermining reality.Statements such as “it’s not that bad” or “you’re overreacting”, erase facts and blur the truth. 4. Discomfort disguised as reassuranceOften when someone is uncomfortable with hearing the truth, they rush to shut it down with statements like, “Everything will be okay.” When really they’re just pressuring a woman to stay silent. 5. Protecting his image over the truthIf you go for help and the people you ask for help are more worried about protecting his image than they are the truth, they might say something like, “You shouldn’t talk about your husband like that.” 6. Isolation through nicenessWell-meaning nice responses can leave you feeling alone, misunderstood, and less likely to reach out again. 7. Pressure to explain, convince, or educateBeing expected to justify why emotional manipulation is harmful drains energy that is needed for healing. Recognizing these patterns is an important step toward clarity. Emotional manipulation becomes even more powerful when it is reinforced by others, especially at the moment a woman is seeking understanding and support. How Education Helps You Recognize Signs Emotional Manipulation Sooner Many women have found answers listening to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. Our BTR.ORG Group Sessions are a safe place to ask questions, process trauma, and express your emotions. If you’re unsure if what you’re experiencing is normal or toxic, take our free emotional abuse quiz to see if he’s using any one of the 19 different types of emotional abuse. TRANSCRIPT: Signs of Emotional Manipulation in Marriage Anne: I love hanging out with my good friend, Kate. Today we’re talking about signs of emotional manipulation, not just from your husband, but from other people he’s using to manipulate you. Because if he is manipulating you, he’s sometimes saying things in a loving, kind way and so he’s gonna talk to other people that way, and they’re gonna be like, “He seems so nice.” This is something that almost all 200 of the women that I’ve interviewed have faced, and Kate is really good at explaining why this happens. Kate: It’s not just religious. All culture is like, “Oh, you got to support your husband. You got to be the good wife.” I’m just like, “Support? What kind of support are you thinking? You mean like the first two years we were married where I just gave him so much love and support and it was amazing?” and then he lied. Anne: Sometimes really well-meaning people don’t realize that he’s been manipulating them. It’s extremely destabilizing when they don’t know what’s happening. Kate and I are going to focus on the manipulation that comes from outsiders like therapists, clergy, friends, family, whose responses, even though they’re well-meaning can leave women feeling isolated, blamed, or unsure of where to turn. So if you’re having marriage trouble, you need to hear this. We’re gonna talk about how you might respond to these comments. A lot of these responses might be for our own entertainment or benefit, like in our own head. We wouldn’t necessarily say this out loud, right, Kate? Kate: Yes! Anne: We need to be strategic in the way that we speak. If you’re interested in learning strategy, please take my workshop, go to btr.org/workshop where I give detailed instructions about strategic ways to respond to manipulators. Emotional Manipulation Through Well-Meaning But Hurtful Comments Kate and I aren’t necessarily doing strategy today. We’re more doing like what you can think in your own head so that you can feel better. So Kate, What’s a really common thing that betrayed women hear from outsiders who don’t actually understand the situation?  Let’s just start with like rapid fire stuff we might hear from outsiders who have been manipulated. Kate: “Oh, you shouldn’t out your husband.” Anne: When they say, “out”, they mean you shouldn’t tell people the truth about what’s going on. Kate: If I say at church or anywhere that my husband is a addict, I’ve had people tell me, “Oh, you shouldn’t out your husband like that.” I’m like, “What? If he didn’t want to be outed, he shouldn’t have done it.” Anne: I know, and I shouldn’t have married him apparently. Kate: I love my story, I get to say whatever I want. It happened to me. He made his bed. Anne: And he shouldn’t have looked at it. So we’re even. Kate: If he didn’t want it, he shouldn’t have done it. Anne: Here’s another one a lot of people say, “He just needs your support.” Kate: Blech! Anne: Yeah, when we’re going for help, we’re telling people what’s going on, and they come back at us with a statement. Like if someone’s in addiction, they’re going to need your support and help. It feels terrible. I think in my head. Like what matters right now is what I need. I need his honesty. I need his fidelity. Kate: I’m like, “Support? What kind of support are you thinking? You mean, like the first two years we were married, where I gave him so much love and support, and it was amazing? And then he lied.” The Reality Of Supporting An Emotionally Manipulative Husband Anne: I supported his butt out of the house. Kate: I supported him by doing what was best for me. Anne: Which was best for him. Kate: Yes. Anne: This one I’ve actually said to people, but I couldn’t say it with a smile on my face. I was saying it out of pain. I said something like, “No one should ever ask a victim to support their abuser, ever.” It is important to point this out so women know how to recognize victim blaming. Kate: It’s so true. What do you mean to support him? You mean what I’ve already done for so long and it didn’t work? We’ve given them so much support. Anne: Yeah for me, I was managing things, so well. Supporting him so much that I didn’t realize how bad it was. Also those general principles that everybody tells us, like love, serve, forgive and support that are principles I believe into my core. I wasn’t willing to ditch those right off the bat and go with safety. I mean, I had to try supporting him. So I had to try making his therapy appointments and all that to get, to gain my own realization. That it was not going to work. What do you think? Have you ever met a woman who just went straight to boundaries. Kate: No, actually. I think it’s kind of normal. And I don’t necessarily see it as a bad thing. I see it as you have to try this one way to know it doesn’t work. It’s not just religious. All culture is like, “Oh, you got to support your husband. You got to be the good wife.” We are loving people, and we try it. Of course, we’ll want to help someone. Signs Of Emotional Manipulation: The Chocolate Cake Analogy Kate: Let’s say our husbands were healthy people and struggling. It would be good for us to help them. But yeah, we have to learn that our help will not help them like we think it will. Anne: Let’s say you bought a giant chocolate cake from Costco once a week. And your husband. Is like, Hey, I don’t want to eat chocolate cake anymore. Would you mind helping me? You’re like, “Sure, what can I do?” And he says, “Would you mind not buying chocolate cake from Costco every week?” And you’re like, yeah. No problem, happy to do that. And then he’s grateful. and he says, “Thank you for not buying chocolate cake. I super appreciate it.” And that’s it. You don’t buy the cake. He doesn’t need it. No big deal. When he ate chocolate cake, it didn’t hurt you. And it’s no big deal to not buy it. But with viewing explicit content he’s essentially gaslighting you and victim blaming you saying. “I need help not hurting you,” which is essentially saying, “If you did something different, I wouldn’t hurt you”. Kate: Exactly, it comes from the entitlement and resentments, so frustrating. Unhelpful Reactions From Others Anne: Another one I encountered was a woman who lived in my ex’s neighborhood, and I knew her from before. ” I said, I’m concerned about my kids. Can you keep an eye out for them?” I told her a little bit, and the whole time she looked uncomfortable. Instead of saying, “Of course, I’ll keep an eye out for them. This must be stressful to you!” She said, “It’s okay. I don’t know why you’re freaking out. Your kids are going to be fine.” I couldn’t think of anything to say in that moment. I don’t know if I should have said anything. I think I might’ve said, “It’s not okay. It’s not okay.” Then I just walked off because I was super mad. Kate: That makes no sense. I think I would have been like, “Thank you, I feel so much better! Yes, that is so helpful. Okay, not freaking out now.” Then just walk away with this ridiculous fake smile. Anne: You know what’s crazy? You saying it’s gonna be okay erases all the facts. I appreciate you waving your magic wand of the words, it’s okay, which apparently in your mind are magic and they make facts disappear, thank you. Kate: “You just magically made my husband better. Thanks!” Anne: “Or the situation, is now fine. Yeah, thanks.” Other things you can think of? The Misuse Of Forgiveness Kate: Forgiveness, “Just have a little more forgiveness for your husband.” Anne: When people say ‘forgiveness’ now, do you know Hamilton? Kate: Yes. Anne: ♫Forgiveness♫ I’m not singing it right because I can’t sing, but that word, when they sing it like that, it’s like this burst of peace coming through and happiness. It feels cool in the musical. For those familiar with Hamilton, you might know what I’m talking about. If you don’t, sorry, I didn’t mean to ruin it for you. Kate: Actually, when you said Hamilton, I was thinking of the stand up comedy from Katherine Ryan. I don’t know if I can watch Hamilton now because I will be thinking of her the entire time. Anne: Wait. When I said Hamilton, you were thinking who? Kate: Katherine Ryan does a stand up about Hamilton. She calls out the misogynistic crap in some of the parts. It is so funny. Anyway, sorry, sidetracked… the forgiveness. I’m like, “What do you mean forgiveness?” If it was something that was in the past and the threat was over, I could maybe understand. Even then, it’s still nobody else’s business. Forgiveness is not like all of a sudden, “okay, I’m done.” Sometimes it’s like baby steps. There are so many little things to forgive. It’s not just one big lump thing. So when someone says forgiveness, I’m like, “yes, maybe when the threat is over and I’ve had time to cool down.” Anne: Like how is me forgiving him going to stop him from harming me? This is the truth about forgiving abuse. Kate: Yeah, it doesn’t make any sense. Anne: I think this is a useful exercise. Forcing forgiveness is an effect of spiritual abuse. Signs Of Emotional Manipulation From Unsafe People Anne: There are safe people who we could actually have a conversation, explain how we feel, and talk about these things. They would be like, “Oh, yes. I’ve never thought about that before and I totally see it. I’m so sorry.” I have a super good friend who when neither of us knew what was happening, she said all the wrong things. But when I started talking to her about it and how I felt, she got it. She’s a safe person because she understood. She was like, “I can’t believe I said that stuff to you. I am so sorry. I was only trying to be helpful and I totally missed the boat.” The problem with trying to have a witty comeback or just the right thing to say to someone when they don’t understand is number one, you could hurt a safe person. Like if you’re snarky or sarcastic, it could actually hurt their feelings, and then it could push safe people away. The second thing is that if they’re never gonna be a safe person, you’re just setting yourself up for your abuser to groom other people around you that it’s your fault. They’ll think, “What is wrong with her? She’s rude.” Or, ” She doesn’t forgive. She doesn’t live a biblical life. Doesn’t she know she’s supposed to submit?” Kate: ” She’s must be so mean. Oh, the poor husband!” People Feel Sorry For Husbands Anne: I think in, at least our church culture, Kate and I have the same faith, a very outspoken woman, sometimes people feel sorry for her husband. Do you think that? Kate: Oh my gosh, yes. A million times over, yes. They will always feel way more sorry for the man than the woman. It’s obnoxious. Even my own family has done it. Everybody knows, it’s not a secret, Anne: But Kate: There was one time I mentioned in front of family members. He’s sitting right next to me. He knows this. I know this. It’s like my husband is enmeshed with his family in a bad way. But my sister ended up telling me, “You called out your husband?” They were feeling so bad for him, because he just sat there and didn’t say anything. He looked so embarrassed. I ended up asking my husband, “Were you embarrassed?” He’s like, “What? No.” He ended up actually writing them all a email. I mean, he sent it before he even told me he was going to do it. He basically was like, “No, I have ruined her life. I’ve done this, I’ve done this, I’ve done this. She’s still allowed to tell whoever she wants.” It was very validating, but it’s still frustrating, because even though he sent that email, I guarantee most people would still be like, “Yeah, but she must be so controlling. Maybe she forced him to write that email?” Or, “Oh, poor, poor man.” It’s frustrating. Go To A BTR Group Session To Process Hurtful Comments Anne: In our faith, it seems like a lot of the men might go in and confess to their clergy or something, and instead of getting some type of, “Whoa, this is serious. You are not following Jesus at all. Maybe we need to protect people from you because your behavior is pretty atrocious.” Instead of saying that a lot of times they’ll tell these abusers, “Oh, you’re not really that bad. You’re great.” Kate: “Oh, you just need more church. Go to the temple. Here, we’ll give you a calling; this will help you.” Anne: “Volunteer more. ” Yeah, exactly. If you need to process your own trauma through thinking, “Okay, these are the things I could have said.” Talk to your friends. Talk to Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session clients in a group session. because When someone says something like that to you, it causes an injury. Sometimes it can be pretty extreme. Sometimes it can be minor. It depends on where you are in your trauma healing process. Like now when people say stuff to me, the injury to me is a lot less than it used to be. But, to validate people who are like, “Why do these little comments the nice, 80 year old woman at church tells me, or my neighbor hurt me so much?” Maybe to just validate women and say, “Of course, they’re going to hurt you. Of course, you’re going to need to process it.” You’re going to go through this time in your head where you think, “What could I have said back to this person that could have either educated them or put them in their place?” Strategies To Respond To Signs Of Emotional Manipulation Anne: You don’t want to put an 80 year old woman in her place, that’s just not nice. And if they really, truly don’t want to get it, then educating them isn’t going to work. So validate that we need to process it. Then, to consider that it’s not our job, and we don’t have to worry about educating other people or putting them in their place. Kate: I think it’s beneficial to come up with the witty comments, but not necessarily to say them, because it doesn’t ever really help. I love coming up with the funny comments, but it’s more fun to then tell it to friends afterwards. It’s more funny then because that way you’re not hurting other people. But you can still find some humor in it so it doesn’t feel so heavy. I know that in some circumstances it is best not to say much. Because they’re going to try to make you in the wrong no matter what. There are many circumstances where I prefer to be vulnerable, not necessarily for them, but for me. Even if it’s just as simple as, “Oh, that kind of hurt my feelings.” Or, “Well, he’s hurt me a lot. I’m still processing.” I like to be vulnerable. That’s empowering for me. It actually gets the better responses from people, where they’re not defensive. Anne: Rather than a snarky, sarcastic one. Kate: They’re still not going to always want to learn, but it might help them think twice. But again, that’s not the reason. The reason is because it empowers me to be honest. Anne: I think being honest is always a good idea. My concern is safety. Engaging In Conversations About Trauma Anne: Could you put yourself in a place where you could be harmed by that person? We might think, “Oh, I’m not safe to say this to someone.” If we say, “I’m super sad because my husband is abusive.” If they don’t like us, however they felt before is how they’re going to feel after. It’s not like suddenly they’re going to be like, wow, I like you now, or I don’t like you now. You’re not going to change someone who really liked you and cared about you to someone who doesn’t like you and cared about you. Kate: Yeah, it does. I also think when it comes to safety, a lot of times I find that safety within me. Yes, somebody might make me feel unsafe, but it doesn’t make me feel unsafe to the point where I’m not going to say, “Hey, that hurt my feelings.” I’m still safe enough to do that, because it’s more empowering for me later on. It’s hard to explain. It’s hard to put this in words. I have not come across a time where I have been honest and vulnerable, and it made me more unsafe. And I was like, I shouldn’t have done that. Because I always learned from it. This isn’t going to work for everybody. I’m not saying everybody should be like this, because there are some horrible people out there. Sometimes the best thing is to not say anything. Deciding If It’s Safe To Share Trauma Anne: I think I was like that more at the beginning when I discovered about my ex husband’s addiction. I’d see somebody at Costco and they’d be like, “How are you?” I’d be like, “Really bad, I just found out my husband lied to me for six years, and he’s using pornography, and it stinks. But it’s super good to see you. How are you doing?” After that, they’d be like, “uh?” So I would do this quite a bit in the beginning, and now I’m less like that. Number one, because I’m not living in my trauma as much anymore. If they asked me, how am I doing today? I’d be like, “Great, I’m doing great. I ate a vegetable.” You know, it’s not like the thing on my mind. So it would be easy for me to talk about something else. I think I’ve learned to be a little more guarded, because I thought shouting it to the world would bring safety. If everybody knew, how could he do it? I realized that did not keep me safe. So for that reason, I think about safety a little differently than I thought before. Kate: It doesn’t go over too well when you’re like, “You know what? My husband just lied to me, and so I’m a little upset. I just found out he’s a big fat liar.” Anne: It goes over super well in Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions, or with a close friend, like Kate, who understands it. When Experiencing Signs Of Emotional Manipulation, Balance Honesty & Safety Anne: So if you have a safe place to go, then yeah, share it there. Kate: I think you can still be honest in those circumstances without actually saying all of it. You could just say, “You know what? Eh, I’m so so. I’m alive. I’m okay.” You don’t have to be like, “I’m great.” Then be like, “I’m dying inside.” You can still find ways to be honest. Anne: Saying something like, “Things are really, really hard for me right now.” And if they say, “Oh, what’s wrong?” Be like, ” I can tell you want to help and you care about me by asking me, but talking about it’s not going to help. You know what would help? If you fix my sprinklers. Or, bring me a pizza. Kate: That one would be great. Anne: We’re just exploring this together and that’s what the podcast is for.
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  What Happened When I Googled “Celebrate Recovery Near Me” 19.05.2026 32dk

  If you’re typing “Celebrate Recovery near me” into Google because you’re desperate for help after discovering that your husband has been lying to you about his infidelity or his use of inappropriate material, you’re not alone. BEFORE GOING TO CELEBRATE RECOVERY NEAR ME, CONSIDER THIS: 1. Recovery Programs Only work If He’s Honest A recovery environment only works if your husband is completely honest about his behavior. Even in cases where he’s willing to attend a program, some women discover their husband takes “chips,” confesses slips, or shares breakthroughs in group without ever telling her. Not because he’s changing, but because he’s using the system to make it look like he’s changing. 2. celebrate recovery near me Can’t Fix Emotional Abuse When women search “Celebrate Recovery near me,” they often think the program will help heal their marriage by helping their husbands understand the root causes of their addiction and behaviors, especially if he seems willing to go meetings. But the root issue isn’t addiction, it’s entitlement, control, and dishonesty. Most recovery programs aren’t designed to assess or confront coercive control. So instead of getting safer, some women end up feeling more confused. Before you invest your hope in any program, you deserve to understand the full picture. To discover if your husband is emotionally abusive, take this free emotional abuse quiz. 3. Some Men Use Recovery or Language as a Shield Many women report that once their husband joined a recovery group like Celebrate Recovery near me, he just learned to speak the language of recovery without actually changing. Instead of becoming more honest, some men become more skilled at hiding, using the right words, sharing at the right times, and appearing accountable…while the underlying patterns stay the same. This isn’t necessarily the program’s fault. Recovery culture tends to take disclosures at face value. But for some men, it becomes a stage rather than a mirror. 4. If He Gets Praise in Group but You Get Hurt at Home, Pay Attention The applause of a group like Celebrate Recovery near me can unintentionally reward performance. Your lived experience matters more than his report. If his recovery looks great publicly, but privately you feel scared, confused, dismissed, or blamed, that’s a sign to step back and observe what’s happening. You don’t have to announce this to anyone 5. RECOVERY Programs Don’t Replace Betrayal Trauma Support A program like Celebrate Recovery near me often uses a model that focuses on his trauma from childhood or his triggers. They may encourage couples to build routines that reduce his stress or triggers, sometimes placing more responsibility on her to monitor or support his progress. These might be good tools for people who genuinely want to heal. But they don’t address lying, manipulation and entitlement. A woman in an emotionally abusive marriage needs support that centers her emotional safety, not his recovery timeline. 6. If You Feel Worse After the Program Starts, That Matters Many women assume feeling worse is a sign that they’re a part of “the problem,” or they need to be “more supportive.” When his patterns of behavior become a shared problem…something you’re both expected to manage…it often creates more emotional chaos for her. Her emotional safety needs to be addressed separately, not tied to how well he’s doing or how much effort he appears to be making. Feeling confused, blamed, responsible for his recovery, or pressured to forgive and move forward…is a sign something else is happening. 7. Your EMOTIONAL SAFETY COMES BEFORE HIS RECOVERY STORY If you’re searching “Celebrate Recovery near me” to save your marriage, here’s the most important thing: his recovery is not the foundation of your emotional safety. Your clarity is. It’s important to have your own support community in place that is educated in the dynamics of emotional and psychological abuse and can help you decide what you need for emotional safety. If you need support in addressing what’s really happening, and whether a recovery program can help, you can start with my Clarity After Betrayal or BTR Group Sessions. They’re designed to give you immediate clarity. Transcript: What Happened When I Googled “Celebrate Recovery Near Me” Anne: I’ve talked to hundreds of women who have typed things like “Celebrate Recovery near me”, or “addiction recovery program” into Google. Especially when their husband said he was an addict and he is willing to go to a program. So if he’s willing and goes to this program, it’s totally normal for a woman to think that things are gonna get better. But over the years, I’ve interviewed countless women who tell me things actually got worse. And I’m interviewing one of those women today. We’re gonna call her. Nancy. Here’s part of her story. Nancy: His coworker called me. She told me she was out with some friends. And he flirted with her and tried to pick her up. We were Going to Celebrate Recovery. He supposedly had been sober for months. Anne: We’re gonna get to her whole story, but before we do, I wanna stress that it’s important to understand that a manipulative man can use anything, a recovery program, therapy, even meeting with clergy to manipulate a woman further, and that causes a lot more harm and trauma. So before you start searching for a recovery program for your husband, it is important to consider what his recovery would be for and how abusers manipulate their victims. Most of the time, the therapist will say something like childhood wounds or addiction recovery. When really what you’re actually experiencing is emotional and psychological abuse. And I’ve even interviewed women who have tried to find an abuse program for their husband, and they still tell me the same things. So as you listen to Nancy’s story, I think it will help put into perspective what’s really going on and what steps you wanna take next. When I met him I thought he was a good guy Anne: That’s why I created the Living Free Workshop. It helps women know what’s going on, if he’s really abusive or not. Some women find out he’s not. And then what steps to take to create emotional safety in your life. It’s much faster to figure that out first, before spending tons of time and money in therapy or a recovery or Celebrate Recovery near me program. Living Free total run time is about two hours and 50 minutes, which is much shorter than three or four years to find out it’s not working. So Nancy, thank you so much for sharing your story today. Welcome, can you tell us how you met? Nancy: When I met him, he went to church. He served on the worship team, and he could talk like a preacher. So I thought he was a good guy. It was confusing, because we were play wrestling, and I wouldn’t have remembered this except I had written in a journal and I read it after everything fell apart. He held me down and said some things like, did you think you were stronger than me? Did you think I would let you go? It really scared me. I was very close to breaking up with him, but he actually cried and apologized. So I thought, he’s sorry. It’s not gonna happen again, and that sort of thing never happened again. He realized he had to be more subtle. He did tell me about his past sexual history. Mirroring my desire to serve missions Nancy: He was in the Navy and with several prostitutes. And he was honest, it felt like to me at the time. That he struggled with porn. I thought after we married, that wouldn’t be an issue. And honestly, I don’t know that anyone would’ve told me anything different. I wanted to serve in medical missions. He didn’t seem interested in this, so I prayed and left the relationship in God’s hands. I told him about how I prayed. And the next time we got together, he said, “He had been thinking and praying, and he really felt God moving his heart to missions. That everyone always thought he should be a missionary. It really blew me away, because I thought God had answered my prayer really fast. He knew that he was not only lying to me, he was also lying about God, and he chose it. Which makes him a really evil person. In pre-marital counseling, I was clear that I didn’t see myself as a housewife. I wanted things to be equal, and I didn’t plan to stop working. He acted like he was on the same page and that he was fine with this. So we married. Things were not good. In less than a year, he turned me down for sexual intimacy. Which was surprising and incredibly hurtful. Especially when I realized he was looking at porn. We went to see the movie Fireproof, and afterwards he admitted he was taking off his ring to flirt with people. I was trying to be very understanding, but I did feel hurt, and he got angry at me. He said this was the thanks he gets for staying away from porn for a couple weeks, which is not funny, but I’m laughing at the audacity. He Pushed Me to Quit Working While Avoiding Any Real Recovery or Celebrate Recovery Near Me Programs Nancy: I think I blocked a lot of it out, because somehow things were good enough back and forth between nice, the Christian thing, and when he would be not so nice. I didn’t recognize abuse. The only thing I could put my finger on was the sexual things. We never could solve how things were to be run. And now that we had children, he could step away and I would be forced to do more house duties, cooking, cleaning, et cetera. Because someone had to do all the things for the children. I would tell him what we had agreed before marriage, and he said, “Yeah, but I thought you would change after we had kids.” Anne: I said the same thing. I said, I’m not gonna cook. And he was like, no problem. Then later told me, I thought you would change. And I’m like, I was so clear. Nancy: Exactly, we’re both honest and open. It’s like, that doesn’t mean I have to change, just ’cause you thought I would change. Well, it did because we had children now that needed to be taken care of. Anne: Right. Nancy: The same thing I said, I didn’t wanna stop working.” And he would constantly try to get me to stop working. I was only working part-time. He wanted me to not have an escape route. We separated, but I was so exhausted and overwhelmed with a baby, 2-year-old, and a 5-year-old. We got back together pretty quickly. Discovering he was flirting with coworker Nancy: A year later, we separated again and went to couples counseling, ’cause I still had not seen how that was harmful. I was really hopeful, which seems funny after just like a week or two of separation. But his coworker called me and told me she had been out with some friends, and he was flirting with her and trying to pick her up. I thought this would be his rock bottom, because he’s almost lost his family. Anyway, we got back together and things were up and down. I was dealing with a lot of anger and depression, social anxiety. At the time, I thought I needed counseling to deal with my issues. We were going to Celebrate Recovery near me. His stated problems in Celebrate Recovery were sex addiction and anger. It’s so crazy knowing that, how could everybody there not believe anything I was saying? He supposedly had been sober for months because of all the addiction model stuff. We agreed that he would tell me if he ever had a slip within a certain amount of time. So at Celebrate Recovery, he went forward for a one-day chip, and that really shocked me because he wasn’t ever gonna tell me. When we agreed that he would. After that we had sex that was definitely, obviously coercive. I don’t think I had the words at the time, but I definitely felt that way because we had an agreement and he didn’t follow it. That was the last time we ever were together. He said he would throw me a 30th birthday party Nancy: I took a step back, and I was observing him because I felt like we were at the best place, and I’m actually an okay person. That means there’s nothing I’ve done wrong, literally. And there’s nothing I can do to change this. It just became increasingly clear to me. So I started looking for more information and came across BTR, but I didn’t listen to the episodes because I saw the word abuse. And thought that doesn’t apply to me. And I found a couple other podcasts. They didn’t fully explain everything, and then a really bad incident happened when I turned 30, a big birthday. Anne: They always do it on birthdays and holidays. Nancy: I know, I had always thrown him birthday parties. He’s an extrovert and that was something that he enjoyed and I didn’t mind, he didn’t throw me anything because I’m more of an introvert. So when I was going to turn 30, I told him that I’d like a birthday party and would like him to throw it for me. I said if he didn’t want to, let me know. ‘Cause it was important enough to me that I would throw it for myself. He said he would throw me the birthday party. But when I wasn’t seeing any preparations, I checked in with him. And the motions he made came across like he was planning a surprise birthday party. Anne: Like, let’s not talk about it. Or you might ruin your surprise. Nancy: Exactly, I had said, “I will throw it for myself.” I repeated that again, that time. He knew. He Claimed He ‘Forgot’ My Birthday While Pretending Recovery Through SAA and Celebrate Recovery Near Me Groups Nancy: So my birthday comes up. I expect a surprise party around any corner. I come to the end of the day and nothing happened, nothing. And his excuse was forgetfulness. Anne: I never gave you the impression I was gonna throw you a party. Nancy: Yeah, It was always that gaslighting and blame shifting. I feel like I dissociated a little bit around that time. ‘Cause it was really hurtful, because I would have thrown it for myself. Anne: And he knew that and he gave you the impression that he was throwing you a party on purpose to ensure that you didn’t have a party. Nancy: Exactly, I actually believed him that it was on accident, but that was just as hurtful. Now, I believe it was fully on purpose. At the time I was going to COSA and he was going to an SAA group. Anne: When she says COSA or SAA, she’s talking about 12-Step recovery for pornography addicts or sexual addicts. There are other programs like Celebrate Recovery near me. And the COSA is a co sex addict’s 12-Step for a wife of an addict, where she basically does the same program he does and tries to fix her character defects. Nancy: Yeah, I’d been talking about giving him another chance to throw me a party, and they said if he already didn’t do it, you should not do that. So I ended up throwing myself a party. After that 30th birthday, I would get down around my birthday every year. I ended up telling him that, not in a way to blame him, because like I said, I didn’t think he had done it on purpose. I just thought I should let him know I wasn’t myself. Recognizing Gaslighting in real time Nancy: And it was the first time I recognized what he was doing in the moment, he started to say. “That had not happened. That didn’t sound like something he would’ve done, that my memory must be a little off.” So many different ways he was trying to convince me that it hadn’t happened, and he couldn’t convince me because I knew it had happened. So he switched tactics and said that maybe he should get counseling for being abused. Anne: He’s claiming that you’re abusing him. Nancy: Exactly, I was so confused. I asked him, “Abuse, what are you talking about? Am I being abusive right now?” And he goes, “No, the abuse I’ve had to endure for the last how many years.” And then I realized oh, that was gaslighting. That’s blame shifting, and I ended up leaving the room and cried on my own. It shook me up that he could take something very vulnerable and turn it on me like that. I was talking about that incident and how he was saying I was abusive and I heard myself saying, “It was surprising he would call me abusive when he’s been so much worse.” And that was the first time I thought maybe he is abusive, and that reminded me about BTR. I thought, let me listen to that, ’cause maybe I can get some insight. That brought me back to listening to the BTR podcast. And I vividly remember I was binging all these episodes, hearing women’s stories. It felt like my life. And it just blew my mind to realize I’ve been abused this whole time. Anne: I’m so sorry. You were experiencing Betrayal Trauma and were not aware that recovery or Celebrate Recovery near me programs wouldn’t help you. Addict model says he’s struggling, he’s not in control Nancy: It made sense. It felt like everything clicked into place. Everything else I was told didn’t make sense. I always talked about stuff. I was always looking for answers. And I never felt like I was codependent or that I needed codependents anonymous. None of that stuff seemed to fit. In fact, the advice I was given, “Don’t pay attention to what he’s doing. Only work on yourself.” While they’re also saying, “Don’t be codependent, ignore what he’s doing,” which just doesn’t work. The addict model, like he’s struggling, he’s trying, he’s not in control. I mean, that’s like step one. You’re powerless to control your behavior. He accepted the addiction model early on, and we were in and out of groups the whole time. But I don’t believe now that he’s an addict, and I don’t think he even thinks he’s an addict. It’s a great excuse to keep doing what you’re doing. Because there’s no accountability, and everyone applauds your efforts. Even if you’re not reaching the goal, you actually have a choice. He would say to me that he could not promise that he would never do any of the sexual stuff again. So it was like basically just saying, I’m gonna be doing this my whole life. Anne: My ex wouldn’t promise either. He said if I promised, “I wouldn’t be on my toes. Like I don’t want to think I couldn’t do that, because then maybe I would be in danger of doing it.” Which doesn’t even make sense. Like I can legit say, I will never have an affair. finding BTR helped me wrap my head around the abuse, Celebrate Recovery near me didn’t Nancy: Right, yeah. I found BTR. And the abuse model is they have a choice, and they’re choosing to be harmful and abusive. All these years he had been a liar. I stepped back and observed behavior for me to fully wrap my head around it. I believe he feels entitled to do what he wants. He doesn’t see people as people. Or maybe it’s just women as women. Objectification is a huge thing. I don’t think he ever saw me as an equal partner or a person. And I don’t believe he ever loved me. I was a desirable object he acquired, and that was it. When I started listening to BTR, it helped me understand abuse and the subtleties of it. Because before, I had only been thinking physical abuse or yelling insults, which my ex did not do. Listening to the stories helped me see how this plays out in marriage, even in a Christian marriage. It was helpful to see the ways men could twist faith things, because many of these men and my ex are very manipulative. Like it has to slowly play out over time to see what they’re doing. And a lot of it goes back to intent, and it’s hard to see intent. It was hard for me to imagine my husband is lying to me. So that was a shift too, to start looking at actions instead of words. BTR gave me a lot of insight into what I was living through and what was helpful, especially getting into the BTR groups. Celebrate Recovery near me didn’t do that. It helps build you up so that you can go through the hard stuff. We were going to counseling around the time I started going to BTR group. Going to couple counseling Nancy: Because of BTR, I had the words for it. I was able to express better what was happening. The counselor didn’t help my situation, of course. Individual counseling and couple counseling are unhelpful, because an abuser’s goal, my ex’s goal, was not to get better. His goal is to get whatever he wants. He’ll say whatever he needs to say to get what he needs from the counselor. We’ve gone to quite a few couple counselors. We would go into a new counselor, and he would bring up a new issue. He had never told me about me. Anne: Suddenly you’re a kleptomaniac or something. Nancy: Yeah, things that he thought I did that were hurtful to him, that I had never heard of before. But I felt so bad that I was hurting him without knowing it. What a callous person I am. Anne: Not knowing he was bearing false witness and that he literally made it up. Nancy: Yeah, completely distracted from why we went to counseling in the first place is sexual issues. Like I would have to be a safe person so he could be honest with me. Because I’m an actual caring person, I would feel like this was an actual issue that I needed to fix. And that is the part about the psychological abuse that is hard to describe. Because a lot of it could sound valid, and I thought these things were valid. But later realizing they were lies. They were lies, because he would’ve said them before. Anne: Exactly. creepy experience with new counselor Nancy: We did an in-home separation, At first. His abuse escalated the freer that I was getting. I never completely stopped working. I got a job and started after the in-home separation. He actually shut off the internet. Luckily, I prepared ahead of time. I had my own phone plan with the hotspot, So I could just switch over and just didn’t even engage with him. It has been a process of combing through my life, and I have wondered that how many lies I won’t even know about or remember. Because, I believed him and he was so good at lying. One of the new things he said was I wasn’t being vocal enough in bed. It felt so humiliating for him to say that to the new counselor. When he had never said that before. This male counselor wanted us to do an exercise right then on the sofa in front of him. He wanted my ex to touch like my foot or my leg, and then slowly move closer to my private areas. And as he moved closer. I was supposed to make more and more noise. Anne: No. Nancy: Isn’t that crazy? Anne: That’s so creepy. Nancy: I did feel incredibly creeped out, and I refused to do it. Anne: Good for you. He said there would be no equality in our marriage – Celebrate Recovery near me didn’t help with that Nancy: I wish I had just walked out, But after we left, I said, “I will never go back to that counselor again.” And we never did. I said, “What I would need to continue in the marriage was for him to be seeing his own personal counselor, to have a full disclosure with a lie detector test.” Which he said no to. And I know now it wouldn’t have been helpful. Just like Celebrate Recovery near me wasn’t helpful. Anne: I know, thank goodness. Nancy: Right. Anne: Mine never did that either. And I think I would’ve just been in the abuse for so much longer had he said yes. Nancy: Right, and then the second thing I said is that, “I wanted equality in our marriage.” And he said no. Anne: He said no, he didn’t want equality? Nancy: Correct. Anne: Wow. Nancy: So I was like, then literally that’s the end of it. And I was going to BTR group. I remember one of the coaches said to me, “It was a blessing that he actually had been honest.” At the time, I didn’t understand, now I do. And I’m so glad I asked those questions. I don’t know why he was honest. There are two possibilities. He didn’t think I would leave, because I hadn’t yet. We’d been married for almost 14 years, and he was only saying what was already true. You don’t need to be perfect to be loved Nancy: I just didn’t realize it was true. Or maybe he did want me to leave. I had some conversations with his mom. Because I found BTR, and surprisingly, she said it made her realize she was in an abusive relationship with my ex’s dad. However, she still felt like I should stay. Because she felt like the Lord had taught her so much and she had grown through all these trials. I have sympathy for her, but it’s so wrong. All of a sudden it just became very clear to me that if I stayed for the kids, it was actually putting them more at risk. And honestly, that conversation solidified that I had to leave for the kids. If you’re not sure yet if your partner is abusive, Just listen to some BTR stories and see what jumps out at you. You are a worthy human being that does not have to be perfect to be loved and treated with respect. Reconciliation is not necessary for forgiveness, and you don’t have to forgive anyone. It’s more of a process that can happen on its own time, and no one should force it. Pay much closer attention to someone’s actions over time than the words they say. And it’s never too late to make different choices when you learn or understand new information. I feel like having to make a choice that is wildly unpopular with people around you. Church, that I had to learn in a new way. Maybe for the first time, to not let what people thought about me affect the decisions that I make that part has been really hard because a church we were going to was not supportive at first. Call from somebody in Celebrate Recovery near me group Nancy: Some of them seemed supportive, and even the ones I thought were supportive, in the end weren’t. I actually got a phone call from somebody in my Celebrate Recovery near me group. She called me up to ask me if I was seeing a counselor. Because I still seemed angry. I was speechless, of course I’m angry. Anne: Yeah Nancy: I didn’t even know how to respond to her. I just told her yes, I’m in BTR group and got off the phone. There’s nothing wrong with being angry about the situation. I feel like church tells women they shouldn’t be angry. But Jesus was angry. There’s nothing wrong with being angry. Anne: Yeah, I feel like if you’re not angry, something’s wrong. Nancy: Right. Anne: I mean, nothing is wrong with you. You might be numb, you might be sad. I went through periods where I wasn’t super angry. I was just really depressed, but on the whole oppressed, abused, exploited people, their anger is from God to help liberate themselves from the oppression. But of course, the abuser does not want you to liberate yourself. He said flat out he didn’t want you to be equal. That is infuriating. Nancy: And now he wanted 50/50 custody. It was very upsetting, because my ex had been very non-helpful around the house and with the kids. It was hard to think that he would want 50/50. Anne: But of course he did. Nancy: I didn’t see that coming, and I wish I had been more prepared and could have been more strategic. Listening to him lie in the courtroom Nancy: I could not wrap my mind around that at the time. I had seen more and more abuse as my eyes were open. So I couldn’t wrap my mind around 50/50 custody. I was under the delusion that justice was in the court system. I found out, even though I know he lies, it was a big shock to listen to him lying in the Courtroom. It’s hard to witness. It’s something I wish I had processed before, because I’m sure that was pointed out to me. But I couldn’t process that as a reality back then. The Living Free Workshop was so helpful. And going to group and getting help constantly. The Living Free Workshop is so different than anything you’ve ever been taught. I don’t know how I would’ve made it through this, honestly. That was another thing that was really helpful. There were some scripts in Living Free to get him on Our Family Wizard, and he actually got on it easily. I was surprised. I didn’t think he would get on as easily as he did, and just not responding in any other way. Anne: That’s the thing, they’re desperate to talk to you. With the workshop, everybody says, how am I gonna make him go on OFW? And if you do the script and stick to it and do not deviate. Legit, don’t deviate. Once you’re on Our Family Wizard, literally block him on your phone, so he has no other way of contacting you. He is desperate to get your attention and your belief, like Living Free says, yeah, they’re so transactional. And if you respond through Our Family Wizard, he will find a way to do it. he performs for others in groups like Celebrate Recovery near me and in court Anne: They’re like, well, this is what I gotta do to talk to her, because I’m blocked otherwise. They will move. It might take a month. I’ve had it take the longest six weeks with one woman that I was working with. Every single time he texted, she said, “Hey, I’ve responded on Our Family Wizard.” Nancy: Right. It felt overwhelming, because he kept sending me long, manipulative messages, but I responded on Our Family Wizard. It only took me once for him to switch. Being on OFW was better. Oh, one of the books BTR recommends, The Woman They Could Not Silence. I read it and that was awesome. It helped open up my mind to spiritual abuse. It’s been inspiring to me this whole time. What she went through being separated from her children. That book has been really inspiring. The thought of leaving them with him, terrifying to me. We went through two rounds of court. He would make it sound like I was controlling and not letting him do things. Like why wouldn’t I let him take the kids to half of the doctor’s appointments when he never came to a pregnancy appointment? And same with field trips. He’ll go on field trips now, and I feel like it’s just to keep me from going. It. He never wanted to before. Anne: If he was actually a good dad, he would’ve been doing it before, but since he’s only doing it now, he is just performing. Nancy: Yes, it’s a performance because he’s getting something out of it from other people, like in in celebrate recovery near me, and it’s punishment for me because he knows how much I like being there for the kids. Reluctance to support anything he can’t control Nancy: When we married, he didn’t want us to do extracurricular activities. He didn’t even want free after school activities, much less anything you would have to pay for. He was only okay with youth group attached to his job, not the free after school activities. But since we’ve been divorced, he has them interested in hockey, which is one of the most expensive and time consuming sports there is. It’s very strange from my entire experience with him. He never talked about hockey, and he never wanted them involved. At the same time, he is not wanting to pay half of necessary expenses, like medical or orchestra uniforms. For a long time, I was not asking for half of necessary expenses. Because I didn’t wanna have to deal with him because he makes it such a struggle. Anne: My ex is exactly like that, exactly. When my book comes out, I’m anxious for you to read it, because it was all about control. Like, if I’m paying you anything or if I’m involved in any way, I have to control it. Nancy: Yeah, like my youngest wanted to do karate. His dad would not participate even when I offered to pay the whole thing. Other son was invited to concert band, and his dad said no. Anne: Think about the power trip that gives him that he’s able to manipulate them away from their natural interests. And maybe hockey is something that he wants to do. Like he thinks karate’s dumb, but he thinks hockey’s interesting. Draining my bank account and controlling my time Nancy: It is a huge expense that is very draining. When he won’t even pay half of an AP test. Anne: And that might be part of it. He’s, let’s pick the most expensive thing to drain her bank account. Nancy: Yeah, it was a double bind to drain my bank account and control my time. And at the same time, if I have to back out of it. He’ll say, sorry, kids, Mom won’t let us go to hockey. Anne: He’s calculating ways to set you up to be the bad guy. Nancy: Yes, he is an expert at setting up situations, so my bank account is being drained, and I cover a hundred percent of their insurance. Anne: With a lot of these post-separation abuse situations. They get the benefits, but they don’t have any of the responsibilities, and they can use it against you, but it never works for you. They can bend the rules in order to benefit them, but you can’t bend the rules. Nancy: In the Living Free Workshop. It was helpful to see how to deal with narcissistic abuse in marriage and how it plays out in separation, to find a way out of it. There was one thing you said, and this is when you’re moving away from his harm. You said, “If he escalates, remember that protecting yourself from the harm is not the cause of the harm. Just like evacuating a building was not the cause of the exploding gas lines.” He still wants to get together Nancy: That really hit me. One of the things that keeps haunting me is did I do the right thing? He still tries to get together personally with me. It constantly comes up that he wants to get together for coffee, or would I go to counseling with him, co-parenting counseling. I mostly ignore it at this point because he’s asked so many times. I don’t even answer him. Then if something goes wrong with the money situations or if there’s a point of disagreement, he will say, if you would’ve only met with me like I’ve asked, then this would’ve already been stopped. Anne: Yeah, we could’ve worked it out somehow, no. He would still lie. Nancy: It’s a trap. There’s that little 2% of me left that feels like, well, maybe I should meet with him, but no, it’s a trap. Anne: Yeah, no. Nancy: Because he never intends to do a nice thing. He just wants to get me in front of him again. I don’t think any good would come of it. Anne: A hundred percent, no. It might seem good, ’cause once you get there, it might seem good. He might like to turn on the manipulative lies to make you feel like he cares. I think one of the most abusive things people can say is, I love you or that I care. So manipulating you in that way is actually dangerous, and that’s probably what would happen. Nancy: I don’t think I could keep a straight face. It would skive me out so bad to be around him and hear stuff like that. Everything he says is the opposite of the truth Anne: Well, it’s just further evidence of his controlling nature, because he desperately wants to hang on to control. And so he’s increasing his lies because it’s getting away from him. That’s definitely a sign that he’s been lying the whole time. Nancy: I completely agree. I know that this is better for them in the long run, but in the short run, that sentence helps me right now. That was probably one of the hardest things for me to come to terms with, is that he never loved me. He doesn’t love the children. None of it’s real. It’s all lies, and he still does it. It’s mind-boggling. Everything he says is the opposite of what the truth is. He continues lying as he did in programs like Celebrate Recovery near me. As we were moving through the separation process, the boys did not want to leave and crying and like holding onto the car seats. It was horrible. I knew if I said anything to him, he wouldn’t care. Any altercation would be scary for the kids. So I started getting third party exchange people through a new church. I actually found a church with a woman pastor, which is quite lovely. The new church was helpful and supportive, and there were several people that would help me with exchanges. And things changed, like taking the Living Free Workshop, and suddenly I felt a lot stronger. I had a new understanding and confidence, so I stopped doing the third party exchanges. He actually met with the principal to try to get the principal to agree with him that I’m not allowed to go into the school on his parenting weeks. like in celebrate recovery near me, A clear example of him lying, controlling and abusing Nancy: Which isn’t true. You’re allowed to visit your kid in the school. Anne: Absolutely. Nancy: Unless there’s a restraining order, which there’s not. We have shared custody, but he made it sound like the principal agreed with him. I didn’t think it was the truth, but it scared me at the time. And we were about to have a party, and I signed up to bring food, so I worried I would be kicked out. But the principal didn’t say anything. Isn’t that a clear example of parental alienation? Anne: It’s a clear way of him undermining your relationship with your kids, lying, controlling, and abusing you. This is how he’s literally abusing you and your children. Nancy: Everybody heard about this incident, and it didn’t matter. He made it sound like he had just been concerned for the children’s wellbeing. Anne: Yeah, no. Nancy: My being around them upset them. Anne: Lies. That’s the issue they lie in programs like Celebrate Recovery near me and fool the leaders. Nancy: It’s lies at times it is possible that they might be upset, but it’s not because they’re scared of me. It’s more that they’re sad about the situation. My one son, he told me, it makes him sad to see me when he knows he has to go back to his dad’s. My daughter had a phone before we separated, but he wouldn’t allow communication between the boys and me ever. Once, my son called me using his sister’s phone. He was crying. I was only on the phone for about two or three minutes, and then the phone cut off. And they told me when they came back that he had been mad at them for calling me. Even if there is a court order they will find away around it Nancy: He wouldn’t allow them to have a watch phones either. That’s one of the reasons we went back to court. Anne: That’s the problem with court. You think if we get it in writing, then he’ll do it, but it doesn’t matter. He is not gonna do it no matter what. Nancy: This is what I have learned. I don’t ever wanna go back to court again, because it doesn’t help. No matter what you do, they’ll find a new way to cause harm. So there’s no point in any kind of new order. ‘Cause then they’ll find a new way around it. Anne: Exactly. Nancy: I’m still glad I went, because before I had been worried I had to do everything exactly perfectly or something would go wrong. And then I realized he’s doing wrong things on purpose. He just says stuff to get what he wants and nobody cares. So that has relieved a lot of fear. Anne: What would you share with listeners about what you’ve learned so far about finding help, maybe from Celebrate Recovery near me or elsewhere? Nancy: You know, hearing other people’s stories have meant so much to me, Living Free and the BTR coaches set me up for success. They told me to transfer half of our money to a separate bank account before I even told him that I might be leaving. That was incredibly helpful because I’m not sure if it would’ve been easy for me to get the money. I never used the word abuse or narcissism to him. That played out well, because he would’ve twisted it against me. Anne: A hundred percent. Kids need to know what a safe place feels like Nancy: Getting on the parenting app, super helpful, third parties for switches. Finding people to help with the things you need is just a lifesaver. I do feel like it will be better for the kids in the future, because they can be in a peaceful setting that’s not manipulative. So when they’re making decisions. About how they want to live and their future partners, that they know what it feels like to be in a safe place and being able to have discussions with them about men’s and women’s roles. Anne: Nancy, thank you so much for sharing your story today. And helping others who are searching, to find something truly helpful. Nancy: Thank you.
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  Betrayal Trauma In Marriage, When It’s Not Getting Better 12.05.2026 26dk

  I hear this over and over again: betrayal trauma in marriage doesn’t just come from discovering a husband’s lies. For many women, it deepens when they reach out for help, and aren’t believed, supported, or protected. Most women respond to betrayal the way they’ve been taught to respond. They… seek counseling. ask spiritual leaders for guidance. work on themselves. try to explain their pain more clearly, more gently, more compassionately. And instead of finding relief, they find silence. Or minimization. Or subtle pressure to endure. For so many women, the most painful betrayal isn’t only what happens at home, it’s what happens when they finally ask for help and realize there’s nowhere safe to land. Before you spend one more day confused, you need a clear, simple framework for understanding what’s happening. That’s why I pulled together Clarity After Betrayal. It’s the starting place women told me they desperately needed before they wasted years trying to make sense of mixed messages, gaslighting, and chaos. When Years of Betrayal Trauma in Marriage Takes a Toll Nikki’s husband betrayed her for years: infidelity, lies, constant emotional attacks. He convinced her she was “too sensitive” and “too needy,” when the real issue was his pattern of betrayal. If you’re thinking his behaviors might amount to emotional abuse here’s some examples of emotional abuse to check out. Transcript: Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Anne: Today we have a member of our community, we’re going to call her Nikki. She’s from Australia. Welcome Nikki. So, tell me your story. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first? Nikki: Not at all. Goodness me, no. I was 15, just had my 16th birthday when I met my husband. I was in the UK. And we’ve been together ever since. I was six months pregnant with our first child. And he bought this little black bag home. And I hadn’t seen it before. We weren’t living together at the time. And he brought it back into my little flat, and being curious, opened it, and there was all this horrible material in there. And said to him, this is not what I want as part of my life. I knew this wasn’t what I wanted, and he said, “Oh, I’ll get rid of it, I’ll get rid of it.” And there were other bits in this bag, which just baffled me. I was just horrified, and the next day I went into labor because I was just that traumatized, I guess. So from that point, it kind of never stopped. I would continually find magazines under the couch. I mean, we tried getting help before we’d gone to several pastors who were basically just more about the codependent model. But I’d done nothing except to protect myself from betrayal trauma in marriage. Anne: And try to protect your marriage, right? It creates betrayal trauma from infidelity, there are so many things a cheating husband says that harm. Nikki: Yeah, and I didn’t want our children to spend time with me and then time with him, because he’d gone down the rabbit hole. I didn’t want there to be a point where he was left with them alone. Life in Australia, Lack of Support & Self-Education Anne: Where do you live in Australia? Nikki: I live in Melbourne, Victoria, but I’m from Tasmania. Anne: Okay, how do you feel like the support is there? Nikki: None, I have struggled to find anybody in this field that can help. So no, I never recognized the abuse, not until I started educating myself. And then it was when I came across the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Facebook page that I knew that what he was doing was abuse, and I was experiencing betrayal trauma in my marriage. Anne: Before you found BTR, when you were trying to get help, what types of things did you do to try and like, improve? Nikki: Yep, I thought if I looked better, if I tried harder, if I loved him more, you know, I learned the love languages. I was always trying to improve myself, and even going to counseling to try and improve something. Yeah, I took it on board, but I think that’s much more to do with how I was raised to be a better wife. And then he wouldn’t do this thing. Anne: There is so much you don’t know, there are so many powerful truths about emotional abuse. So you knew about the watching stuff online. Did you recognize the other types of abusive behaviors, like lying, manipulation, and gaslighting as betrayal trauma in marriage? Could you identify those back in the day? Or did you not realize all that was going on too? Nikki: I knew there was lying and manipulation. Because that kind of goes hand in hand with sneaky behavior, doesn’t it? Yeah, it wasn’t until the internet came about and you could Google this kind of stuff that I became aware of it. It wasn’t until much later in our marriage. Realizing Common Advice Doesn’t Work With Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Anne: So when did you realize that common marriage advice, look good, love, serve, forgive, make sure dinner’s on the table, make sure the house is clean, you know, that sort of thing? People say marriage is hard work, and unless it’s abusive it’s just not true. And when did you realize that common marriage advice was not working and that the betrayal trauma in your marriage was not improving? Nikki: Probably about 20 years ago. Anne: And how long have you been married? Nikki: We’ve been married about 27 years. Anne: Okay, so seven years in, you realize, wait a minute, this isn’t working. What helped you realize that? Nikki: I think it was shortly after we’d had intercourse, and I walked in and found him looking at stuff. I actually thought he deliberately tried to hurt me. When Betrayal Trauma in Marriage is Getting Worse Anne: And when you thought that, he deliberately attempts to hurt me, you also didn’t think abuse way back then. Nikki: No, not at all. It’s only the abuse part has been, I think, the last six years that I’ve seen his actions as being abusive. Anne: Why do you think it takes so long for victims of emotional and psychological abuse and this type of coercion (probably because no one knows: what is victim blaming) to understand the reality of their situation. Nikki: Trauma, I think our brain sits in trauma because the person you most trust, the person you think will never hurt you, is doing it. And I think it’s protection. I mean, I can’t speak for everyone, I can only speak for me. Because whatever your circumstance is, there’s a part of you that needs to protect your own mind and yourself from the betrayal trauma in marriage. Your brain or your body is just not ready to realize that this is what it is. Crisis Point & Finding Betrayal Trauma Recovery Anne: There’s also this education factor. You don’t have an abuse class in high school. Along with math and English, right? So many people think they understand abuse because they’ve seen a TV show where a guy beats up his wife, and they’re like, that’s what abuse is. And they don’t recognize all the different covert ways in a marriage that you can be abused and end up with betrayal trauma. Nikki: I think it’s the gaslighting as well. Because it’s been so long in my marriage. It’s like, oh, no, I must have misunderstood what he said. Oh, no, he’s right. I’ve got that wrong. Oh, okay. I thought you meant this, but you actually meant this way. Oh, all right. So you’re second guessing yourself all the time. Anne: What were you looking for online when you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery on Facebook? Nikki: I hit a crisis point. The crisis point brought me to the fact that I was trying to seek some kind of support basically anywhere, because here in Australia it’s like, oh you’ll be right mate. So whoever you spoke to thought you were being prissy. It just wasn’t cutting it. I just felt so deeply ashamed and hurt that I needed some kind of support and wasn’t getting it in the real world. So when I came across the group, it changed the way I view my whole life. Anne: So you started attending the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group sessions, can you tell us about your experience? Knowledge Is Power With Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Nikki: Knowing that I’m not alone. Because I’ve always taught our children that knowledge is power. Once you have power, you can change the way you operate, change the way you do things. So for me, that’s been the greatest thing, being informed. And then being able to research that and having the facts behind it. Which has been a great thing. Anne: Being educated about betrayal trauma in marriage brings so much confidence. It really helps you recover from betrayal. Because the gaslighting, you’re like, Is this me? Is this real? What’s going on? And if you don’t have words for it, you can never fully define it to someone else. And so, they’ll give you typical things, like, Well, you just must be stressed. Or maybe, don’t worry, it’ll get better. Things like that. Because you’re not able to say what’s happening with betrayal trauma in marriage. So getting educated, you can actually talk about it. Having words to describe it immediately helps people understand what’s happening. It also helps victims understand what is going on. Because there’s so much confusion. Nikki: Yeah, for me, what I’m experiencing now, because I’ve been in this for a long time. And there’s been a lot of game playing. on his behalf, and I’ve just realized my body is actually physically, it’s started coming out. I’ve developed really bad tinnitus, which is a physical representation of what’s going on in the outside world. Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Has An Impact on Physical & Mental Health Nikki: And also, I find my brain is not working the same. As I’ve got older. And I think that’s because of the trauma that’s gone on throughout our whole marriage and childhood. My brain’s got to the point where it’s like, I don’t want to work anymore. I don’t want to hold this memory, or it just phases out or disassociates, which I know is part of the trauma. But it’s frustrating. Anne: I can imagine. How old are you now? Nikki: I’m 47. We have five children. They’re all adults now. Thank you, God, they survived. They’re pretty good people, but we’ve got four boys, one girl. And my children growing up, they’d ask him a question, and he wouldn’t respond. They’d always be, Oh, we’re going to go to the sensible parent. Meaning that we’re gonna go see mum. Anne: He wouldn’t respond because he was distracted or he just couldn’t focus? Nikki: I don’t know if he didn’t know the answer. So he didn’t want to look silly, so he’d muck about. Because I think his use of online material stunted his intellectual growth. He must have been about 14, I think. And I always developed critical thinking in our children. You know, I told them to think about the wheres, whys, and what fors of any situation. And because he didn’t develop that skill, the children kind of overtook him in their thinking and emotional development. He just really frustrated them. Anne: That makes sense. In terms of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, the education and support you’ve received helped you make different choices about how you interact with him. Taking My Power Back With Betrayal Trauma Recovery Nikki: I no longer buy into his BS. Like, if I ask him a question and I know he’s done something, I know that whatever comes out of his mouth will be a lie. I state my case, I drop it, I walk away, and I allow him time to be truthful, and no longer check up on him, because I found that, oh my goodness me, it was driving me nuts. I felt like I was chasing my whole life, and I was trying to catch him out playing detective, and it just doesn’t work. It just, for me anyway, and I understand there is some control, especially early on when you’re still buying into the gaslighting. But now I’m at a point where it’s like, you know what, you do you. I’ve gone out and I’m back in to work full time. I’m just living my life. to the best of my ability. And the group, like the conversations in the group, and the information in the group, helped me see that betrayal trauma in marriage doesn’t mean I stop living the best life I can. And so yeah, I’m grateful for that, because it’s given me my life back, and enabled me to take my power back as a woman, if that makes sense. Anne: It makes sense. So we talk about boundaries to help yourself heal from betrayal trauma in your marriage a lot at Betrayal Trauma Recovery and in the BTR group. Many people who don’t listen to the podcast, I would say, or misunderstand what we do, accuse me of being pro divorce or a man hater or something like that. Or that Betrayal Trauma Recovery is just a place where if you go there, you’re going to end up bitter and angry. Boundaries & Misconceptions With Betrayal Trauma In Relationships Anne: You are still married. Would you speak to that a little bit and talk about how do you see Betrayal Trauma Recovery? Like, I see us as a safety first organization, right? Your safety is the most important thing, and you can figure out what that looks like in your own life. But could you talk to that point? Nikki: I’ve never seen you say get a divorce or be a man hater. You lay the facts out as they are. Whatever a woman does with that is their choice, their option after betrayal trauma in marriage. Yeah, what you promote though is, are you safe? Are you okay? Anne: We have to walk this fine line, because when we talk about abuse, many people want to say, well, you should only encourage them to leave, like immediately. Then there’s the addiction recovery people. They’re like, no, you should be nice and understanding. Don’t shame them, don’t make any decisions. And know they’re sick. And how can you help them? So we’re not on that side for sure, but I’m right in this section where I want to give people correct information and say, your safety is the most important thing. And I am not living in your shoes. I’m not living in your home. I don’t know all your specific circumstances. So I trust every woman, every victim, to make. The best decisions about her particular situation. So I think that’s one thing that I’m wondering is, do you feel supported in your circumstances and where you are right now in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery group? Do you feel accepted for the decisions you’re making? Complexities Of Abuse Will Cause Confusion Nikki: Yeah, people will always speak from their own inner knowledge or feelings, I think. So whatever you put out on a group. Expect that response from that aspect. You take what you can and leave what you don’t need. Like you said, you’re the only one who knows what’s happening within the relationship. So yeah, I feel supported because I take what I need from it, because I am the only one that knows what’s happening and why I stay within my marriage. We’ve got a lot of financial obligations together. You know, we still have grandchildren that would visit, Grandad, and I’d much prefer to be around. So I know why I stay within my marriage. And I think it’s up to every individual person to make that decision. Anne: People who haven’t been through it, or people who have, I mean, it’s just a lot more complex than I think anybody can even wrap their head around. It’s such a complex situation and it unfolds over time. So not everything can be decided in a split second. Nikki: Everything feels split second when you’re in it though, doesn’t it? Anne: It does. And it feels like you have to, it feels like you have to decide or know everything. There’s this overwhelming desire to resolve things as quickly as possible, whatever resolution means or whatever fixing it means, but it’s impossible to resolve or fix quickly, right? This is a very, very long-term complex problem. Nikki: You know, we’ve found a therapist, we’ve thrown all the money we can at him. Anne: So you’re still with a man who’s continuing to exhibit emotionally abusive behaviors. Future Hopes To Make The Best Of My Life Anne: How do you feel right now? Nikki: Oh boy, okay, so we’ve just had an episode, so everything’s a little bit raw for me just now. Because he’s what I think of as a surface person. He wants everything to look great on the outside, that everything’s going well, and that he’s doing underhanded things, and he gets off knowing that he’s getting away with it. So when he becomes overly nice, I then become on guard, and I wait for the next influx of abuse, emotional abuse. He doesn’t yell, he doesn’t do any of that, he just becomes very quiet. We had, we’ll say, six months of nice. And so I was waiting for it. So we just discovered, and so we’re just going through that now, and he hasn’t gone back to see his therapist. So he’s just waiting to go back to see her, but it’s difficult, because I don’t know what she’s saying to him, or whether he’s telling her partial truths. Have I reached some kind of peace within myself? There is peace around our marriage and our life? No, there isn’t peace. I’m making do with what I’ve got because of circumstance. And that’s awful to say, because it feels like a half life. Anne: Do you feel like you’re progressing toward something? Even though current circumstances are what they are? Do you hope for the future? Nikki: I’ve got a lot of hope for my future, because I’ll make the best of my life no matter what. For our marriage and for us together, we will have to make a step either away, and I don’t think it’s going to be too long down the road. There will be a conversation with my grown children. There Will Always Be Complexity In A Marriage With Betrayal Trauma Nikki: They know about his addiction. I just don’t think they realize how far he’s gone within that addiction. Yep, I’ve got peace in me, but within our marriage, not sure. We’ve got a few big decisions ahead of us, which will affect many outcomes for myself, my daughter, and him. Anne: Well, that is what is so awesome. If I can praise Betrayal Trauma Recovery about BTR, is that we get it. We get it. We get how complex it is, we get that it takes a long time, sometimes. You know what the right thing is or what the thing is you want to do, not necessarily the right thing, but it’s not the right time or other factors, right? There are so many complexities. And having someone who understands and be supportive is helpful. Should we call it that with a long-term trial like this? What should we call it? A long-term problem. What would you tell other women? Let’s say what you went through in your early 30s, so if someone’s listening. And that’s where they’re at. Let’s say they’ve just discovered pornography for the first time. Nikki: Oh my goodness. I’m sorry this is your journey. Get help. Get immediate help. Find a good support network. Find somebody you trust. That you can tell absolutely anything to. And will not judge. And will just be there for you. Find that one person. And walk beside them, and let them walk beside you. Because that’s the best thing you can do for you, to heal you. And know that it’s not your fault. Know that he made choices that have affected both of your lives. It’s just not your fault, though. Knowing About Abusive Marriages Helps With Betrayal Trauma Nikki: And don’t try and fix him. Anne: Oh, we’ve all done that. Nikki: Yep, if we just do this, if I look a bit prettier if I wear this lingerie. If I do that risky behavior that he would like me to do, that’ll make him happy, and he won’t do it anymore. Anne: When women go down that road, they end up doing it more. Or he wants it more, right? There’s no end to it. Nikki: Oh, he wants a bit more freaky. The indulging of their immature behaviors, their man child silliness. And I think that’s something we don’t realize, isn’t it? Is it that they get themselves stuck emotionally at the age they start using? So what you’re actually doing is complying with a teenager, a child. And so, and what happens when a child doesn’t get what it wants? It tantrums. And unfortunately, a man tantrum has a bigger impact, because they’re disposable, to play with like income or whatever it is, you know, that’s protecting the family. Anne: Yeah, well, and also their tantrums are way more sophisticated, right? They might not scream, yell and punch the wall, although some of them do that. But their tantrum might look nice and kind when behind your back they’re spending $10,000 of their retirement. Nikki: Yeah, or they’ve got a hidden phone, so they’re happy to show you the phone they’ve got. And all the while feeling proud of themselves that they’ve got a hidden phone, and that’s what gets them off. Anne: Exactly. When You Need Love, Attend Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Anne: Well, thank you so much for sharing your story and spending time with us today. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group is that amazing place where you can be yourself and understood. Is there anything else that you would like to share about the group or about BTR that you have found helpful? Nikki: For me, in the early stages of betrayal trauma in marriage and now as sort of, I won’t say a veteran, but I’ve been there for a while. This is the place you go to when you need to feel heard, you need to feel safe, you need to reach out. You know, or you just need somebody to say, Hey, I’m here for you. Or you need to feel loved. Because this group, for me anyway, has provided that. Get in contact. You know, try and join the group, because it’s just, if you want to feel loved, this is where it’s at. Anne: That’s good to hear. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is love. They can make choices due to that love and confidence to get them to safety. That’s the whole goal. Nikki: To know you’re not alone and that the crazy making that happens, sometimes this group, has helped me unravel that craziness. This is going on, and in your head, because they’ve gaslighted you so much, you’re forever double guessing your own mind, to notice that you go in there and somebody says, yep, that’s normal. My husband does that. It’s like, it’s what they do, it’s one of their little tactics, and you just come away thinking, Oh, okay. And you can take a big sigh of relief to think, Oh, I’m not that crazy after all. There is Hope After Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Anne: Yeah, no, you are not. You are beautiful, amazing, competent woman. It’s a cool place to be, right? It’s a cool club to be in. With all these awesome women. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to share your story today, and we’ll see you in Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. Nikki: Thank you, Anne.