Scaling Laws

Founders & Founders: Kal Clark of Zauron Labs 03.07.2026 50min

Kal Clark, co-founder of Zauron Labs, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to explain how AI is already reducing diagnostic errors in radiology.Kal details how Zauron’s AI system functions as a second-look safety layer, reviewing imaging exams for high-impact missed findings before those results translate into patient outcomes.Kal and Kevin then discuss the scale of diagnostic error in modern healthcare, the institutional barriers that have prevented systematic second reviews, and how open-source AI models combined with on-premise deployment might allow hospitals to build their own diagnostic intelligence while protecting patient data. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Lawfare Daily: 'The Reverse Centaur's Guide to Life After AI’—A Conversation with Cory Doctorow 30.06.2026 56min

Alan Rozenshtein, associate professor of law at the University of Minnesota and research director at Lawfare, and Kate Klonick, associate professor of law at St. John's University School of Law and a senior editor at Lawfare, spoke with science fiction novelist and technology journalist Cory Doctorow about about his new book, The Reverse Centaur's Guide to Life After AI, which argues that AI is being deployed to turn workers into "reverse centaurs" who serve machines rather than direct them, and that the economics of the AI industry add up to an unsustainable bubble. The conversation covered the distinction between centaurs and reverse centaurs in automation theory; why Doctorow thinks the AI business loses money on every customer and can't pencil out; whether the AI boom is a "productive residue" bubble like the dot-com fiber glut or a pure value-destroyer like crypto; how AI has fused with the state and the stock market, raising the prospect of a slow deflation rather than a clean crash; whether statistical inference can ever amount to genuine understanding; AI's effect on labor, from warehouse injury rates to the burden of "marking the AI's homework"; AI art and the problem of intention; security risks like "slop squatting"; and the threat of knowledge collapse and what it means for the future of education. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Founders & Founders: Dhruv Diddi of Solo Tech 26.06.2026 48min

Dhruv Diddi, founder of Solo Tech, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss the emerging frontier of Physical AI. Solo Tech builds infrastructure that allows developers to deploy AI models directly onto robots and edge devices rather than relying on cloud-based computation. In other words, think about allowing AI systems to operate in remote areas that have traditionally struggled to leverage the latest and greatest tech.Kevin and Dhruv look into what it takes to move AI systems out of digital environments and into the physical world. They also chat about the idea of "gyms" for AI and policy challenges associated with highly-sophisticated robots becoming more ubiquitious.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

"The God Test": AI as Cosmic Reckoning, with Robert Wright 23.06.2026 52min

Alan Rozenshtein, Research Director at Lawfare, spoke with Robert Wright—author of Nonzero, The Moral Animal, The Evolution of God, and Why Buddhism Is True, and the writer behind the NonZero Newsletter and podcast—about his new book, The God Test: Artificial Intelligence and Our Coming Cosmic Reckoning, which argues that AI is an evolutionary threshold on the scale of the entire history of life, that we are collectively failing to grasp its magnitude, and that rising to the challenge will require both new forms of international governance and an expansion of human moral and cognitive perspective. The conversation covered the multiple meanings of the book's title and what it means to view AI from a "cosmic" perspective; whether the public is finally starting to "feel the AGI" and where skepticism about AI's capabilities now comes from; how large language models are trained and Wright's claim that we have built "machines that create machines that think"; whether these systems genuinely understand, what Searle's Chinese Room and Nagel's "what is it like to be a bat?" have to do with it, and the open question of AI moral patienthood; the two families of AI risk—bad actors empowered by AI versus AI itself going rogue—and why the near-term disruption to jobs, relationships, and security may matter most; the "But China!" argument against AI regulation, China hawkishness, and why Wright thinks racing toward superintelligence is dangerously destabilizing; the case for "global governance" over "world government" and the perils of concentrating AI power at home; and why a book about AI and geopolitics closes with a call for mindfulness, cognitive empathy, and transcending the psychology of tribalism. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Justified Posteriors join Scaling Laws: Two economists and two lawyers walk into a podcast studio 19.06.2026 1j 16min

In this cross-pod episode, Alan and Kevin join Seth Benzell and Andrey Fradkin of Justified Posteriors to explore a big question: what should AI be for?The conversation begins with Pope Leo XIV’s recent encyclical. The group discusses how economists should think about the Church’s role in AI debates, what counts as an AI-related market failure, whether moral and religious institutions can help address social harms, and whether such interventions risk crowding out private action or local experimentation.The episode then turns to the emerging idea of positive alignment. A recent paper, Positive Alignment: Artificial Intelligence for Human Flourishing, argues that AI alignment has focused too heavily on negative alignment—preventing harms such as manipulation, bias, dangerous outputs, and misuse—and should also ask how AI systems can actively support autonomy, wisdom, truth-seeking, pluralism, and human flourishing. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Explain to Shane (Tews) and Scaling Laws 16.06.2026 47min

Shane Tews, host of Explain to Shane and nonresident senior fellow at AEI, joins Kevin Frazier, director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a senior fellow at the Abundance Institute, for a cross-post conversation about the AI and cyber executive order, workforce disruption, and the future of education. They also share their respective research agendas for the summer. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Lawyering on the Frontier with Janel Thamkul 12.06.2026 50min

Janel Thamkul, former frontier counsel team member at Anthropic, joins Kevin Frazier to discuss what it means to practice law at the frontier of AI.This episode starts with a review of Janel’s fascinating and varied background. Next, she walks through her initial exploration of a career in art before eventually pivoting to the law based on some very formative experiences. Kevin and Janel then investigate some of the most pressing and open questions related to transformative AI. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Radical Optionality: Governing Transformative AI, with Christoph Winter and Charlie Bullock 09.06.2026 43min

Alan Rozenshtein, Research Director at Lawfare and Visiting Senior Fellow at the Institute for Law & AI (LawAI), spoke with Christoph Winter, LawAI Founding Director and Assistant Professor of Law and AI at the University of Cambridge, and LawAI Senior Research Fellow Charlie Bullock, about their new paper "Radical Optionality: Governing Transformative AI Under Uncertainty," which argues that, given the possibility of transformative AI within the next decade and deep uncertainty about its capabilities and risks, governments should aggressively build the institutional capacity to regulate competently when needed, rather than either deferring to the market or locking in premature substantive rules. The conversation covered the four foundational assumptions underlying the paper and what makes the optionality "radical"; the difficulty of regulating an exponentially improving and poorly understood technology and what it means to "feel the AGI"; why a pure permissionless-innovation approach breaks down once the national-security implications of transformative AI come into view; why the European precautionary approach risks regulating without the expertise to enforce; the centrality of hiring and talent and what an adequately funded U.S. counterpart to the UK AI Security Institute would look like; the concrete work that such an agency would do, including evaluations, standard-setting, and procurement-side cybersecurity requirements modeled on CMMC; the importance of building international information-sharing channels among liberal democracies before they are urgently needed; and the case against broad federal preemption of state AI laws before any federal regulatory framework exists. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Tom Davidson on the Importance of AI Character 05.06.2026 51min

Tom Davidson joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss AI timelines, explosive economic growth, and the increasingly urgent debate over “AI character” — the behavioral traits and decision-making tendencies embedded into advanced AI systems.Drawing on Davidson’s recent paper, “The Importance of AI Character,” which he co-authored with Will MacAskill, their conversation explores how the character of future AI systems may influence democratic governance, military conflict, institutional trust, and even the long-run trajectory of civilization. The discussion also examines the key influences on character development and which actors should ultimately play a part in dictating the default values and behaviors of AI models. You may also enjoy Tom's article on AI as advisors. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Governing the Frontier with Owen Larter of Google DeepMind 02.06.2026 45min

Owen Larter, Senior Director and Head of Frontier Policy and Public Affairs at Google DeepMind, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to provide an inside look at how DeepMind approaches frontier governance. The conversation moves beyond the familiar U.S.-EU-China framing of AI policy to examine international coordination after the recent U.S.-China summit, Google DeepMind’s national AI partnerships, the role of the Frontier Model Forum, and the challenge of expanding AI adoption. Kevin and Owen also discuss policy formation inside frontier AI companies. They close with an examination of the need to build a deeper AI policy talent pipeline. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Inside the Fight to Detect and Govern Synthetic Abuse with Melissa Hutchins of Certifi AI 29.05.2026 1j 2min

Melissa Hutchins, founder and CEO of Certifi AI, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss the rise of deepfakes, non-consensual sexually explicit imagery, and the growing policy fight over AI-generated harms online.Drawing from both her professional work and her personal experience as a victim of cyberstalking, Melissa explains how synthetic media is changing the threat landscape for individuals, platforms, and policymakers alike. The duo also unpack proposals like the Take It Down Act, the challenges posed by a fragmented patchwork of state AI laws, and what it’s like building an AI company from Seattle rather than Silicon Valley. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

HAGS (with AI): How AI Tools Are Shaping Education with Adeel Khan and Ryan Trattner 26.05.2026 49min

Adeel Khan of MagicSchool AI and Ryan Trattner of StudyFetch join Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss the rapid integration of artificial intelligence into education.The conversation explores how AI tools are being used by both teachers and students, from automating lesson planning to providing personalized tutoring and study support. The group examines claims about improved learning outcomes and time savings, while probing what counts as meaningful evidence versus early-stage or self-reported metrics.They also discuss the regulatory and operational challenges of building AI systems in education, including constraints imposed by student data protections, limited access to high-quality training data, and the growing impact of regulations and public scrutiny on product development and deployment. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Politics of Data Centers with VA Delegate John McAuliff 22.05.2026 47min

John McAuliff, a Delegate in the Viriginia House of Delegates, joins Kevin Frazier, Director of the AI Innovation and Law Program and a Senior Fellow with the Abundance Institute, to discuss the ongoing debates around data centers at the state level. John was one of the first candidates to recognize data centers as a key issue. He had to convince his polling team to put the issue on early surveys. Of course, they soon realized he was on to something. In his first legisatlive session as a delegate, John championed legislation to try to help counties negotiate with data center developers. He's not done working on the topic. Learn more about his plans and related issues by giving this episode a listen.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Let's Do the Science! Talking Algorithms with Cathy O'Neill 19.05.2026 48min

Cathy O’Neil, CEO of ORCAA and author of Weapons of Math Destruction and The Shame Machine, joins Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and Senior Editor at Lawfare, to explore the promises and limits of algorithmic auditing.The conversation examines what audits actually do in practice, how organizations measure and mitigate bias, and why context—not just code—determines whether an AI system causes harm. O’Neil explains why auditing cannot be reduced to a checklist, where it can meaningfully improve outcomes, and where it risks creating a false sense of security.They also discuss the need for evidence-based AI policy, the challenges of translating ethical concerns into measurable standards, and how regulators should think about auditing as part of broader governance frameworks. Logan Le-Jeffries, a wonderful member of the AI Innovation and Law Program, provided research assistance on this episode. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Escaping One-Size-Fits-All AI Policy with Sean Perryman 15.05.2026 41min

Sean Perryman, AI policy lead at Uber and lecturer on AI Governance and Ethics at Vanderbilt Law School, joins Kevin Frazier, the Director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, to explore the rapidly evolving debate over algorithmic pricing and AI governance.The conversation begins with the rise of state-level efforts to regulate algorithmic pricing to unpack what these systems are actually doing and why they provoke strong reactions. Perryman examines the political motivations behind these regulatory efforts, the economic tradeoffs they often overlook, and the risk of unintended consequences.The discussion then broadens to a central theme in Perryman’s work--including his Substack, The Human Cost--not all AI systems raise the same risks. Different use cases require fundamentally different governance approaches—yet policy debates often flatten these distinctions. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Forecasting AI's Impact on the Economy with Deger Turan, CEO of Metaculus 12.05.2026 52min

Deger Turan, CEO of Metaculus, joins Kevin Frazier to unpack new forecasts on how AI could reshape the labor market over the next decade.The conversation centers on a striking divergence between Metaculus forecasts and projections from institutions like the Bureau of Labor Statistics—raising fundamental questions about whether existing tools for understanding the economy can keep pace with rapid technological change.Deger walks through key findings from the Labor Automation Forecasting Hub, including:A potential decline in overall employment by 2035Increased pressure on entry-level workers and early-career pipelinesThe emergence of “lean” firms generating more value with fewer employeesA counterintuitive “wage paradox,” where fewer jobs may coincide with higher wagesThe growing role of political power, regulation, and licensing in shaping labor outcomesThe discussion also explores second-order effects, including how contraction in high-paying sectors could ripple through local economies, and what a shift away from traditional four-year degrees might mean for students and policymakers.Finally, Deger situates these forecasts within a broader vision: forecasting as a form of epistemic infrastructure. As AI accelerates change, the ability to form accurate beliefs about the future—and update them quickly—may become a core component of effective governance.*** - This episode was recorded on April 23, 2026. Metaculus is a live platform. It's likely that forecasts mentioned have subsequently changed. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Rapid Response: An "FDA for AI" at the White House?, with Dean Ball 08.05.2026 33min

Alan Rozenshtein, Associate Professor of Law at the University of Minnesota and Research Director at Lawfare, and Kevin Frazier, AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and Senior Editor at Lawfare, spoke with Dean Ball, Senior Fellow at the Foundation for American Innovation and former Senior Policy Advisor for AI at the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy, about the Trump administration's reported plans to vet frontier AI models before public release.They discussed how Anthropic's Mythos model reshaped the administration's posture on AI risk; why the executive branch lacks clear legal authority for a mandatory pre-deployment vetting regime; the voluntary "kick the tires" framework Frazier and Ball have proposed using CAISI and the Cyber Resilience Fund; whether an FDA-style licensing regime is ultimately inevitable for frontier AI; and the institutional design challenges of building AI oversight that can scale with rapidly improving model capabilities. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Lawfare Daily: Why AI Won’t Revolutionize Law (At Least Not Yet), with Arvind Narayanan and Justin Curl 05.05.2026 44min

Alan Rozenshtein, research director at Lawfare, speaks with Justin Curl, a third-year J.D. candidate at Harvard Law School, and Arvind Narayanan, professor of computer science at Princeton University and director of the Center for Information Technology Policy, about their new Lawfare research report, “AI Won't Automatically Make Legal Services Cheaper,” co-authored with Princeton Ph.D. candidate Sayash Kapoor.The report argues that despite AI's impressive capabilities, structural features of the legal profession will prevent the technology from delivering dramatic cost savings anytime soon. The conversation covered the "AI as normal technology" framework and why technological diffusion takes longer than capability gains suggest; why legal services are expensive due to their nature as credence goods, adversarial dynamics, and professional regulations; three bottlenecks preventing AI from reducing legal costs, including unauthorized practice of law rules, arms-race dynamics in litigation, and the need for human oversight; proposed reforms such as regulatory sandboxes and regulatory markets; and the normative case for keeping human decision-makers in the judicial system. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

An EU-perspective on America’s Approach to AI with Marietje Schaake 01.05.2026 45min

In this episode of Scaling Laws, Kate Klonick, Associate Professor of Law at St. John’s University and a fellow at the Brookings Institution, and Kevin Frazier, Director of the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law and a senior fellow at the Abundance Institute, are joined by Marietje Schaake, the International Policy Director at Stanford University’s Cyber Policy Center and author of The Tech Coup: How to Save Democracy from Silicon Valley. A former Member of the European Parliament, Schaake has long been a leading architect of digital rights and tech governance.Their conversation explores the central thesis of her work: that a handful of tech giants have effectively staged a "coup" over democratic functions, from national security to the very infrastructure of public discourse. They examine the democratic implications of AI development, the "privatization of policy," and why Schaake believes that without urgent intervention, the "rule of law" is being replaced by the "rule of code."To get in touch with us, email scalinglaws@lawfaremedia.org. Logan Le-Jeffries, a member of the AI Wranglers student program at the University of Texas School of Law, provided research assistance with this episode.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Eliminating Barriers to AI Adoption with Clarion AI's Bennett Borden 28.04.2026 50min

Bennett Borden, Founder and CEO of Clarion AI Partners, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at UT and a Senior Fellow at the Abundance Institute, to discuss AI adoption as well as the future of the law and legal practice. The two explore Bennett’s unique background, Clarion’s AI interdisciplinary approach, and the importance of AI adoption. They also cover innovative work underway at major AI labs to align model use with user expectations.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.